Episode 455 | The Way of the Wave | Embrace the Ebb and Flow of Aging | Daniel A. Miller - The Aging Well Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:07):
Welcome to the Aging World Podcast, where we explore the
science stories and strategies behind living a longer,
healthier, and more purposeful life.
In this episode, we welcome Daniel A Miller, best selling
author, entrepreneur, creative spirit, and nationally ranked
senior tennis player. At 82 years young, Daniel was
thriving in every sense of the word.
His latest book, The Way of the Wave, nature's model for

(00:29):
navigating life's currents, offers a powerful message.
Aging well isn't about clinging to control, but about learning
to ride life's natural rhythms with acceptance, presence, and
trust. Drawing inspiration from the
flow of nature, Daniel shares how letting go of expectations,
attachments, and the illusion ofcontrol can help us become more

(00:51):
resilient, deepen our relationships, and live with
greater peace and purpose as we age.
Whether you're facing transitions, losses, or simply
looking for a fresh perspective on growing older with grace,
this conversation offers wisdom that can help you to ride the
waves of life, not fight them, and age well.
Daniel, welcome to the Aging Well podcast, and let's just

(01:13):
have you start by telling us a little bit about yourself.
Sure, nice to be here, Jeff. I'm a native California, born
and raised in born and raised inSan Bernardino.
I'm in the San Fernando Valley now.
I went to UCLA undergrad and then law school, was an attorney

(01:34):
for about 10 years, and then transitioned into real estate
for quite a few years. In fact, many, many moons ago, I
wrote a book, How to Invest in Real Estate Syndicates, that
was, believe it or not, in 1978.And then I didn't write much
after that. And so later on in life, after

(01:56):
undergoing a real series of traumatic events over a five
year period in my 40s, I, I, I sort of started over again.
So it's because a major controller that I knew in work,
I was controlling at home. I was controlling.
It was father knows best at at home.

(02:16):
And but that didn't work for me.I was successful career wise,
financial wise, but I didn't feel successful internally.
And that's how this last book evolved is it was during that
time I went to the ocean. I went to the Santa Monica and

(02:36):
just sat on the rocks looking atthe waves, you know, just.
And as I did, I was just struck and sort of almost mesmerized by
the, you know, their endless variety, the unpredictability,
just the power, the awesome power.
And having done a little body surfing when I was younger, it

(02:56):
I, I just extinctively intuitively knew that there and
somehow lies the keys for me forthe healing that I needed to go
through and, and to lead a little, you know, fuller life.
Because when you're out there inthe water, the, the laser in
control, not us. And, and if we really want to
get by in any meaningful way, weneed to find ways to align with

(03:19):
them, to go with the wave, not against the wave.
And so that led to some writing and journaling.
And this again, this is in the late 80s at this time.
And during COVID, you know, we have so much time as moving
boxes from my garage files out that we have a storage shed.

(03:40):
And I came across 15 chapters ofa book that wasn't published,
that was called The Wave, you know, that I almost had
forgotten about it. And I started looking it over
and I couldn't back then. I didn't know enough about it.
I, I felt I sort of knew what the idea was of going with the
way, but I couldn't explain it well.

(04:02):
And I didn't have enough life experiences, so to speak.
So I said, well, maybe now, maybe now, and this would be my
late 70s, let's try it again. And so I said, you know, writing
books I love, I love to do that.It takes a lot of time and

(04:22):
effort. You know, I fortunately, I'm not
like a professional writer whereI could have to get up every day
and write and write and write. I don't have to do that.
So my books take 5 or 6 years and I ended up with the way the
Wave, you know, and I'm very pleased with very proud of it.

(04:43):
It's it's definitely a more personal book than my others,
mainly my personal stories. So today I'm still lieu involved
in real estate. It finances my other things that
I love to do, so to speak. I enjoy painting.
I write poetry sometimes and I'ma very avid, passionate tennis

(05:05):
player, so I feel my life is full.
At 81 years old, I feel very blessed.
And you are thriving at 81, so you're still competing
athletically. You're running businesses,
you're writing your books. What does aging well mean to you
personally? Aging well to me, to me means,
it sounds strange, but just feeling good every, every

(05:26):
morning I wake up, I, I, I just,you know, I, I feel good, I feel
positive. I look forward to the day.
I've definitely learned my limitations, you know,
especially on, on the amount of energy I have to do things.
I know I need to exercise every day, whether it's tennis or

(05:47):
going to the gym every morning Iget up first thing out of bed.
I have my morning stretching routines.
And I just, I, I feel life is sofull and I feel very blessed
because, you know, in the last year I've lost some very close
friends. And so I see that happening, you
know, so I try to be it. It it makes me just more aware

(06:10):
of how blessed I am and not to focus really on what I can't do,
but what I can do, what I'm still able to do, one of the
which is to be of service to others.
And hence writing the book. And so you dusted off the book.
It's out there for a while. What inspired you to write The

(06:31):
Way of the Wave and how does this differ from your earlier
work? Because I know you've written a
couple other books as well. Yeah, I would say it's more an
expansion of what I've written about and losing control,
finding serenity and the gifts of acceptance.
It was, it's a different kind ofbook in the sense of there's

(06:52):
short chapters with mainly some of my stories or some of my
family stories that they gave mepermission to include.
That was very important. And it's it's my hope is it's
more of an interactive book. As you know, at the end I have
inquiries and reflections. So my hope is, is that you know,

(07:12):
the mainly the things I've struggled with which I called,
you know, the obstructors to riding the wave.
I'm hope by highlighting those and talking about those through
these questions is the reader maybe and examine their own
lives and and see how much of itapplies to them and maybe what
they can do to improve their lives for for example, like one

(07:37):
of one of my biggest challenges is overcoming my propensity to
judge. You know, I'm AI call myself a
former controller. I still judge too much.
And the main difference I'm muchmore aware of it in one and I
know it's not good for me because you know, when I'm

(07:58):
judging, I'm I'm taking, I'm focusing on someone else, not
me, right. And so I I examine why do I
judge so much, you know, and, and why do I expect so much?
So these are the things I get into.
I don't come to definitive answers.
Sometimes it's as much as raising the questions and

(08:20):
becoming aware of these propensities.
And because those are the things, you know, when I even we
talked about, you know, the ideaof going with the flow, Yeah,
that's great. It feels good.
But how do you do it? It's more like or how do you
stay on it? If you're in the zone, how do
you how do you stay on the zone for I say a little longer time

(08:41):
rather than sort of falling off.And this book I identifies those
so-called obstacles that remove us from the natural flow of
life. And then I try to highlight
those what I call wave enhancersthat enhance the flow, that
maintain the flow and main ones being trust and acceptance.

(09:05):
Yeah, I really enjoyed the kind of the organization of the book,
the the kind of sound cliche, the flow of the book.
Thank you. But one of the the key ideas of
the book is letting go of control, which I think most of
us probably have a lot of problems with that.
I know I do personally. Why is it especially important

(09:26):
as we grow older? Why is it wet?
I'm sorry. Especially important to kind of
let go of control as we get older.
Oh OK, let me start with this. I, I think controllers are when
we have capacity control, I'll speak for myself is you feel
insecure when you're not controlling.
There's an underlying fear or discomfort.

(09:47):
And I remember I'm reading Alan Watts many years ago and he
expresses a little differently is like when we seek security,
we become more insecure. So when we try to control or get
control, I feel we're more out of control.
Our lives can get out of control.
And what happened with me, it, it just disconnected close bond,

(10:11):
especially with with my son and,and and friends.
It it you can't, it's difficult to have intimacy when you're too
controlling. So there's that loss of bonding
connection, allowing people to open up to us, you know, and so,
but in, in terms of the way I speak of it is we restrict our

(10:36):
life currents. You know, that's why I talked
about and write about what I call limited thinking.
You know, it's sort of like, to me, limited thinking is sort of
a control device. We're, we're refusing to let go
of our hardcore beliefs or ways of doing things.
You know, the status quo is, is somehow too important to us or,

(10:56):
or we're fearful of changing thestatus quo.
So in many ways, I, I look at itas it when we are able to give
up or let go of some control, ifit frees these, these life
currents and then what? And then once we have them
going, is accepting accepting isit what allows us to align with

(11:18):
the ones meaning to choose the ones that are best for us?
You know, So I that's why the two main concepts, I think
behind all my books is this ideaof letting go of control and
then accepting the what is. And when I come to the
acceptance is the phrase I like to use.
Use is when you accept what is, you can discover what might be.

(11:42):
And that applies so much in my life.
You know, when we accept our limitations, we can focus on the
things that we can still do, thechoices we still can make,
especially as we get older. So you use the nature as a model
and throughout the book you share a lot of personal

(12:02):
experience. Do you have any particular story
you know, personal experience where nature taught you a life
lessons about life lesson about acceptance or resilience?
I, I would say that the main oneis I mentioned when I was at the
beach, but there are other timeswhere I'll be maybe hiking in a
nature area, you know, the, the solitude of it, the peacefulness

(12:27):
of it. It, it allows me to, I like to
use the word to get in touch more with my, my coast, my soul
center, so to speak, to, to be more grounded.
And then let me give you an example.
Every day, my morning starts like this.
I'm out of bed and I say the serenity prayer on my knees.

(12:49):
The surrender prayer is my guideto life and my guide to
acceptance. After doing my exercises on the
floor that I mentioned, I go outside and I had this
beautiful, beautiful olive tree and I have a beautiful yard, but
the olive tree. And I will raise my hands and

(13:09):
look at the olive tree and just,you know, ask for acceptance and
guidance to be receptive to whatmay come my way.
Or if I'm, I'll give you really a prime example, I guess is with
my book. You know, the other two books
were successful from the point of view of getting not only
getting some awards, but so quite a few copies.

(13:32):
I'm not so sure that's going to happen with this book, but but
may or may not. But I've moderated my
expectations. But I go out with my olive tree
is like just allow me to be receptive to where this leads to
me, you know. And this book so far has led me
some to some really great stories and podcasts like we're

(13:57):
having right now. I had one with tennis and how
tennis relates to life. I had one with a father on
parenting. And so I don't know, I just sort
of feel that when I'm in nature,it just opens up all these
things for me. Yeah, I I found myself just
every chapter of the book hitting me in a different way

(14:18):
and I'm like, oh, another wake up moment and even like I think
it was earlier this week. And my son obviously, thankfully
emptied the dishwasher. But we have a lot of Fiesta
where dishes that my wife has collected over the years.
And Fiesta where is kind of a family tradition kind of thing

(14:39):
because my my dad's from the area of southeastern Ohio where
those were produced. And they're all different
colors. But I'm a little bit OCD, and
everything's got to kind of be stacked in order, you know, you
don't mix up the colors. And everything was just out of
order. And I'm like, OK, just, you
know, go with the waves here. Just let it go.

(15:00):
And I left it as it was. And that was a hard thing for me
to do, but. It can be be really hard.
And I think Chapter 5, and you kind of alluded to this chapter
already for yourself, so I'm glad I'm not the only one that
probably benefited from this. But I felt like, did you write
this chapter knowing that I was going to be interviewing you
because Chapter 5 is judging other writers?

(15:22):
And for someone who is used to planning and controlling
outcomes, what's a good step forward in terms of practicing
this wave inspired mindset? Yeah, I I think is the process I
went through is what's behind that.
What's my motive for wanting to judge someone else's choices or

(15:45):
the way they are, you know, and I had to examine that and I
couldn't come up with with, in away, a good reason maybe is it
my eagle is that it makes me somehow feel better than the
other, you know, and as I mentioned the book maybe for a
few seconds, but that, that that's not really what it is.

(16:08):
So what is it that propels me todo that?
And I have to be truthful. I don't have the real answer
yet. What?
But what I do have much better is I am so much aware when I'm
doing it, you know, because if I'm judging, especially people

(16:29):
close to my family, my children,if, who wants to be judged?
I don't want to be judged. If I feel someone's judging me
that that's going to turn me off, I'm not going to want to
open up to them. I'm not going to want to share
my thoughts and feelings with them.
Right. So I, I know it's, and by the
way, I, when I say judging, I'm not talking about assessing

(16:51):
situations could be danger or harm or things that aren't good
for us. That that's something else.
I'm talking about the more personal types of judgments and
those are the ones that I try tofocus on.
It's, it's there, it, it, it's something I'm getting better at.
I don't, I don't think it's going to leave me, but it's

(17:12):
going to get better. And, and a lot of these things
that, you know, talking about the expectations or my limited
thinking, it's a matter of mitigating them, quite honestly,
reducing them. And the more I am, I feel I have
stronger relationships with my friends because they're, I'm it

(17:33):
just, you know, it. Let's put this way, when we,
when we could practice acceptance, There's no need to
judge, right? If you're judging, you're not
accepting. If you're judging, you're
controlling. You know, so it's, it's really,
I think it could be, you know, very detrimental to us and
certainly it's what takes us offthe flow 'cause I, I had a

(17:55):
friend and I was discussing withand, and she shared when I feel
I'm judging someone, I, I think what's going on with me, it's
usually something going on with me that that's causing that.
So then I can maybe take a few moments and take a look what's
going on with me. And that's why I, I really
appreciate the way the book is structured in the way that we

(18:15):
could almost take each chapter is just maybe a daily read and
take those questions or take it on a weekly basis and just go
through the questions that you have, you know, the individual
ask themselves at the end of each chapter and just use that.
It is almost a meditative practice and part of that, you
know, what I consider more of a growth mindset where you're

(18:37):
looking on a daily basis, what can I do better?
I have a phrase I use kind of myown journaling and blogging and
everything where it's my saying is, you know, be your best
today, be better tomorrow. And yes, you know, you don't
present in the in the book that you have all the answers.
It's you have all the struggles and the struggles have led you

(18:58):
to finding a better pathway, youknow, riding the wave and, and
finding a way to navigate some of the, the challenges that we
face in life. And so how does riding the wave
help us to navigate some of our major life transitions like
retirement, health changes, loss, those types of things?
Sure, sure. You know my mom, my mom lived

(19:22):
101. Wow.
She died about 10 days ago. Sorry for your loss.
The last seven or eight years, nine years of her life, she was
riding the wave. I mean, I saw it, I witnessed
it, I experienced it. It was, it was an amazing change
that I hadn't growing up. He saw that part of her, you

(19:44):
know, and she, she had had a stroke when she's 89.
She she faced it, she dealt withit, went through physical
therapy and then, you know, it'stime you start losing certainly
your physical limitations. But she was so much in
acceptance, you know, and she enjoyed up until maybe the last

(20:05):
year, she truly enjoyed. She was an assisted living, but
she enjoyed playing bingo. She was in in doing the arts and
still painting. And she was.
In her own way, really just going with the wave.
So is for me is going with the wave today in addition to the

(20:28):
acceptance is trusting. You know, I'm trusting the
currents and I'm trust that things may not be like I want
them to be. They may not turn out the way I
might want them to be, but that what however they turn out.
I trust that I'm going to be OK that I will have some choices or

(20:48):
I can find a way to deal deal with whatever the issues.
That really helps a lot. That makes me sort of like, I
want to say more even keeled things are not going to impact
me. Negative things are not going to
impact me that that strongly. Or if they do, it won't be for
as long, you know, and I can recover.

(21:09):
And I, I look back at my own life and what I have gone
through and, and what I overcomeand I'm still here, you know,
and I feel I'm here better, more, more fuller, so to speak
than ever. So to me, that's sort of what,
what the wave is, you know, like, like I talked about the

(21:31):
ocean, you know, you have the crests and the swells and you,
but you also have the riptides, you know, and nature has the
storms and hurricanes and this and that.
So nature's and all, not all, you know, positive sulky, just
like life, we, we have the ups and downs, the ebbs and flows.
And so it's sort of going with wave to me is to sort of in a

(21:55):
way maximize those, those good times or highs and to reduce the
impact of the lows right throughtrust.
And when I say Lols, that reallybrings up another one.
The other, I can't pronounce it well, but I'll spell it
LULLLULLS lows, when we have lows in our life.

(22:17):
And I don't know if you've experienced those.
I think a lot of people have. I know I have.
And that could get you down if you let it get you down.
But what I've come to learn is Itrust and know that's just part
of life. That's the normal part of life
to have laws. And I talked to people.
I have friends and 11 good friend about a year ago, he had

(22:43):
just retired. He had been very active in his
career and he was like reassessing his life or what?
What's he going to do now, so tospeak?
And he did. You could tell he was not
struggling, but very pensive. And I, I said, Stan, you're just
having a low. And he said, yeah, that's what
it is. And and it seemed to sort of

(23:05):
take that pressure off because for me, the struggle I had with
flaws is feeling, well, I'm not being productive, you know?
And is it OK not to be productive?
Yes, it is a time. Yeah, it is.
Yeah, it's interesting how we kind of put a lot of this stuff
into our own perspectives. Like for myself, being an

(23:27):
exercise physiologist, I think the more physiological kind of
aspects of the ups and downs andwhatnot.
And I had a friend recently really gave me a nice analogy
that I guess her mother had toldher, it's like you can't live at
the top of the ECG, which means,you know, if you're trying to
live at the top of the ECG, you're flatlining, which means
you're dead, right. And we need those ups and downs

(23:47):
because the the ebbs and flows of life are really what
stimulate growth. I mean, for me is a physic, you
know, physiologist, just you know, you, you don't have true
homeostasis. You always have ups and then
downs which cause us to correct.And that's what helps us to kind
of stimulate growth. And part of this process.
You talk a lot in the in the book about the role of self

(24:08):
compassion in the process. How does this support the
journey of aging well? Yeah, to me you say self
compassion. Yeah, yourself.
Compassion. Yeah, it's for me that it is
taking care of myself because I had had a history of self
neglect, you know, I was youngerand that resulted been losing

(24:30):
ultimately one time losing half my nose because I thought I
didn't have time to go to doctorappointments that.
And so I've gone from self neglect to practicing self-care.
And that is compassion for, for me, you know, that's
acknowledging myself, you know, and so, or we can save my own

(24:55):
self acceptance and the compassion not only for myself,
but having compassion for others, my, my friends.
So in recent years, as I mentioned is last year, I lost 2
very, very close friends. And, but what I was able to do

(25:16):
and was to be a service to them during those times.
One person in particular, I wentto every doctor's appointment
with him, you know, and we became closer, we bonded even
closer as we were able to share even more intimate things about
our lives. And I just remember he, I gave

(25:39):
him a copy of the preliminary copy of the book during this
time. And he says, is that story about
me because I, I changed. No, I mentioned a story that I
had with a friend. I didn't say that.
I'd never say the name of the friend, but it was, it was a
story about me and him about 20 years ago.

(26:01):
And I thought, yeah, it, it was.And then we, we were able to
talk about that thing that happened in the past that
separated us for a little bit. You know, so the compassion is
if I'm more compassionate to myself, I feel I'm more
compassionate and, and can have more empathy for others.
So yeah, it is. I agree.

(26:24):
I never thought of it in terms of self compassion, but I, I, I
think it is, is if I'm doing things, especially the trust and
acceptance I have and humility. Is it to me is another very
large when I call enhancer is that part of me that I'm I'm

(26:44):
open to other ideas and and not feeling that that part of me
that I really know what's best for others or what they should
do. And that's proven so much with
my children, because I truly don't.
They know more than I do many times.
Anyway, that's sort of a long, Ididn't mean such a long answer
to that question. That's OK.

(27:05):
We like the long answers on thispodcast because that's where we
really dive in deep and it's talking about self compassion.
You know, just the word vulnerability kept popping into
my head as well. And I think we need to, in order
to be vulnerable, we have to have a certain level of self
compassion. We have to forgive ourselves to
be able to open up and be able to work on strengthening those

(27:28):
relationships. And and you write a lot about
how letting go can strengthen our relationships.
You have a lot of great examplesin the book.
What are some common control patterns we might not even
realize we're holding on to? Yeah, that's a good, good
question, Jeff, because when I wrote Losing Control, Fighting
Serenity, I really tried to delve into.

(27:48):
I knew I was controlling, you know, in fact, I even put a
little love control test in thatbook because a lot of times
we're controlling with our, our love relationships.
But you know, I, I feel if I'm offering my opinion more than
once, I'm trying to maybe changesomeone so that that's
controlling. If I, if I'm resisting, if I'm

(28:11):
pressuring, obviously that that's controlling.
But there's, there could be subtle ones.
I may firm my face or sneer, Youknow, there can be some physical
things that are, you know, in a way controlling.
Could be we can be cajoling or charming to get our way and that
can be controlling. It's just amazing judging this

(28:35):
control. There's so many ways for control
and it's the sort of more subtleones that we're not aware of.
And so I in pretty much all my books, and this one too is, is
go through, try to identify, to try to become aware of those
patterns. And, and one is definitely when,

(28:58):
when I'm dealing with someone and I'm getting some kind of
resistance or worst case of being dismissed, especially by
my son, is I said, OK, I'm overreaching.
I'm probably overreaching here, you know, and I'm getting into
that control pattern. So that's one way.
And then quite honestly, I, I talked to, to my friends, you

(29:21):
know, how do you find me controlling and which way, How
so all those different ways, theself reflection, seeing how
people respond to me, there's usually control involved in
there. And so it's a matter of just
sort of easing up, letting it goand, and, and so much with, with

(29:42):
my children and, and particularly is when I'm not
controlling and when I could just listen.
And I write, I do write a lot about that.
It's about this attentive listening, if I can listen, and
even though I may have the urge to give advice or counsel, I
used to do it and at times I still do it in all to very bad

(30:05):
results, very poor results. So my goal is I will listen.
And if I'm not sure that they'reasking something from me, and
I'll say to my daughters, sweetie, are you, are you asking
my thoughts on this? And they'll let me know.
I had a story not long ago. We had a sort of family

(30:28):
birthday, but I have two daughters and my youngest
daughter was struggling at work,a little bit underpaid,
overworked. And my eldest daughter was
asking questions of her, you know, you know, and I didn't
like the answer that one of my youngest daughters get.
And I just jumped into that conversation, you know, and it

(30:50):
was dead silence at the table. You know, it just quelled the a
nice evening. I realized it right away.
I called her the next morning and apologized, You know, I'm
sorry. And then about a week later, my
wife were in the car driving andmy youngest daughter calls again

(31:11):
and is talking about again, another issue she was having
with her boss at work. And I'm just listening and
listening. And I said, sweetie, again, I
asked you, are you looking for my opinion on that?
So, you know, I feel better now.I just wanted to talk about it,
you know, and that's so often true, you know, is that I think

(31:33):
sometimes people need just to let it out and and to have a
receptive ear, you know, and that can be very healing it, it
really can open up a much deeperbond with the person.
Yeah, that was one of the many examples of your personal
experiences that I remember fromthe book that I thought was
really, really good. Makes me kind of re evaluate how

(31:55):
I interact with my kids. And I honestly, I really enjoyed
the book in terms of, you know, I think it's got stuff that any
one of us can learn because we are all controllers.
I mean, if you're not a controller, you're into now how
many children I have too, a verystrong willed 16 year old
daughter and a coming up on 20 year old son.

(32:18):
OK. Yeah, and I'm screwed them both
up. So yeah, you give me hope that I
can actually redeem those relationships over time, so.
I'll never forget when my youngest daughter was 12 years
old. I don't remember what the
subject was or what we were telling her to do.
And she's daddy. I'm 12 years old now.

(32:39):
I'm 12 years old and she's a really smart 12 years old.
I mean, she had her own thoughtsand known with Simpsons, but it
was really sort of cute. But is, you know, and what I
don't know if you found, but what I found overtime, couple
things is my children know much more about me than I think they

(32:59):
do. They know about us, you know,
they may not, you know, say it in those terms, but they really
know us, you know, And sometimesI know I didn't realize it
actually felt good realizing that, you know, But it's, you
know, the thing with with with our children is my mom in her
later years in her 90s, it was really important for her to know

(33:25):
how I was doing. Am I OK?
So I don't think we ever lose that concern.
We have, you know, for our children, you know.
Right. So how is your sense of purpose
evolved over the years and and how do you continue to stay
creatively and spiritually engaged?
Thank you for that question. Spiritually engaged, as I say, I

(33:48):
have my morning prayer, especially the acceptance prayer
and prayers for guidance, being in nature, mentoring others.
There's some people that I mentor, being very active
tenant. Tennis is just sort of my
passion and it's, I'm going to brag here, but I'm very proud.

(34:11):
You know, I play seniors tennis tournaments and these are
usually former college players and they go five year
increments, you know, the the brackets or divisions.
And I started playing again in my mid 60s after my daughter
started oldest daughter started playing tennis.
Anyway, make the story short. This past year I made it to top

(34:31):
10 nationally in double S, you know, and I'm just not only
proud of that, but it's it's it is the way I got there.
And and that's why I really feelit happened about the time I
start writing the book about theway because I realized that so
many things about riding the thewave in other parts of my life

(34:53):
transition or occur on the courts.
You know, there I was talking toa fellow tennis player, you
know, is that tennis doesn't necessarily create character,
but it reveals character. And it's really interesting.
If you ever play, or it could bein most sports, golf, you know,

(35:13):
it really reveals character. But anyway, so that I'm painting
later today, I'm going to go out.
We have a little place in Malibuthat I look at the ocean and the
waves and walk on the walk on the shores.
And I have my easel out there. And you know, and since I
started writing books, my paintings sort of taken a little
bit of the back seat. So I'm now getting more into

(35:36):
painting and, and it's is this, that creative aspect is so
nourishing to the soul, you know, and a little bit of
writing the poetry, as I say, a new thing I'm doing is, and
that's what I'm saying that the finding purpose is I've always

(35:58):
been into succulents. And so I have like succulent
gardens. I, where I'm at right now in our
house, we have these palm trees and these big palm fronds.
I've taken them and I'll plant succulents in them, you know,
and so the little place in Malibu, I, I guess I'm almost
becoming a landscape designer. I don't know, but I, I created a

(36:20):
rock stream, you know, and, and with succulents planning around
it. So I'm really enjoying creating
using the earth and the plants. So that's sort of becoming a new
thing, but I, I try to remain open, curious and interesting
and, and things just evolve. You know, right now I'm involved

(36:44):
a little bit with the marketing of the book and I hope to be
speaking on it and carrying the messages that are in the book,
you know, but at some time that low is going to come, I think.
And, and my plan this time is tobe know it's normal, you know,
and just see this book started from a low, you know, literally,

(37:06):
you know, and when I was having a low after, after the
publication of the gifts of acceptance and it, and it did so
well. Is there was a period that, you
know, when you're very active, engaged in something and you and
you stop doing that so much, there is that open time frame.
So I'm not, I'm not discouraged,you know, because, and my wife

(37:29):
is so interested in so many things.
So I'm really, I, let me put it this way, Jeff, I never for once
thought I would be enjoying my life so much in my 80s Never.
I, you know, fortunately I'm physically fit, I'm healthy.
So I, I, I know, I say that knowing that I'm not having to
deal with the challenges that somany people do, you know, at

(37:52):
this age. So I try to remain humble and
aware of that and grateful for that and just continue taking
one day at a time. I think one thing that really
comes through in reading your book is that you are doing the
things that we talked about in terms of aging well and having
that balance. I mean, I think part of what I

(38:12):
kind of picked up on you talk about the laws in the in the
book and you know, having the balance that you have.
I enjoyed when you're talking about was it Joni Mitchell and
trying to think of the other singer you envisioned that they
sing while they yeah, Tony Bennett.
That's right, that they that they sing while they no, what

(38:36):
was it but. They're painting.
Yeah, while they're painting, right.
And you know that you go back and forth, you know, you, you
paint and then you you write andyou have so much balance in your
life. You have that kind of physical
dimension with, you know, doing your tennis and, you know, going
out and kind of absorbing. Yeah, just the environment of

(38:56):
being at the beach and the writing, the painting.
And, you know, when the paintingisn't going the way you want it
to go, you just kind of set it aside.
And you might sit on a painting for a year.
And I think there's so many messages in there in terms of,
you know, how do we allow ourselves to kind of strike this
balance by, you know, going, youknow, riding the waves in the

(39:20):
different components of our life.
And if we only are kind of more singly, singularly minded.
And I think, you know, you use alot of business examples in
there. And I would imagine when you
were most focused on just your business is when you had some of
your greatest struggles. I.
Did no, no question about it. No question.
But I, I didn't have balance. You know, that's why I write

(39:41):
about, you know, the importance of self-care when, when you're
neglecting your, your life's outof balance.
I, I truly believe that. And yeah, yeah, I, I, I, I
learned that in a way, the hard way.
But yeah. And so I, I, the, the 2 words

(40:01):
that I, I sort of keep in my mind is the one you mentioned,
balance is very big. The other is, I'm going to call
it moderation. You know, is, you know, you have
the extremes both ways. It could be, you know, some,
some people it's like 1 attribute if a carried to an
extreme can be sort of a detriment.

(40:22):
And that if, if, if I'm too, if I'm too giving, let's say it's
good to be given. If I'm too giving, I may be
taking away from the other person.
You know, if, if I'm too fearful, I'm not going to do
certain things. But, but, but fear of that, on
the other hand, can be helpful in pointing out real risk.

(40:43):
So it is trying to find that balance or that moderation and
expectations is a big one for me.
And I really moderated and really reduced my expectations
with the current book, you know,and with the next big tournament
coming up, because I, I went to the finals of the nationals last
year. So my expectations are naturally

(41:05):
a little bit heightened. But I'm in having a tennis
podcast the other day, I became aware of that because the
podcaster who's a tennis player was saying that these tennis
players at the highest level, the pros, when they start doing
well, then their expectations increase.
So if when they have a let down or a failure or I mean lose,

(41:26):
they it can be, you know, taken really seriously hard hit.
And so the ex moderating my expectations, you know, because
it's good to have them, you know, but we, I feel we need to
sort of moderate them. And so the idea of kind of
riding the waves be easy to kindof just perceive that we go

(41:49):
about life just Willy nilly doing what whatever comes our
way, not having much structure. But I, I sense that there is a
certain amount of structure to your life that you know, daily
habits, weekly habits that you know, yes, you do to be able to
remain vibrant spiritually, physically and emotionally.

(42:10):
So what are some of the things that you do is more regular
habits? I guess the regular habits other
than, you know, the exercise is I really enjoy my breakfast.
You know, I have a, a pattern of, of, of certain foods I like
to eat and look forward to the, the, obviously, you know, the

(42:32):
exercise. I still, I'm still working, you
know, so I, if you call that a habit, it's a structure.
You know, I, I was involved withreal estate heavily.
I'm still involved. In fact, I share with people I
don't know if I'm going to ever retire.
And but I more I think about that I'm OK because even when I

(42:53):
write about, and you probably know more about this than me,
about creating new brain cells by using our brain, especially
in different ways and in new ways, is, is I think it keeps us
more mentally acute and healthy so that I am structured that
way. I, but within that structure is

(43:16):
I allow myself leeway. OK, at the top of my computer, I
have a little stickum note it, it says how urgent is it
question mark? Because I used to have this huge
sense of urgency, you know, whenI was younger, especially at
work, everything felt and if I'mnot careful, I can get back into

(43:37):
that. So I, I look at that, how urgent
is it? 90% of the time it's not urgent.
You know, it truly is not. I just feel it is.
But if I, if I can just become aware, no, it's not that urgent,
right? And just trust a little bit, you
know? So, yeah, the structure, you
know, my wife and I, we, we haveactivities we enjoy doing

(44:00):
together. And so there, there is a certain
amount of structure, but I feel it's good.
I mean, you know, when I wrote Losing control, finding
Serenity, but the whole thing about giving up control, one of
the questions was raised. What do you just do?
Just do lazy, fair attitude and just, you know, and not do

(44:22):
anything. No, you know, and, and
acceptance, you know, I, I couldbe accepting someone, but it, it
doesn't mean it's not a passive state.
It's not a total necessarily surrender of things that are
important to me. You know, when, when I'm
accepting, I'm, I'm looking at the underlying reality of, of
something and, and I may not like it and that doesn't mean

(44:46):
that I condone it. But if I see, see it for what it
is, I can then look at what my choices can be.
You know, I can align then with the currents that are, that are
better for me. So I forgot the question again.
That's OK it. Happens in the 80s.
Happens in the 60s too. It can even happen in the 40s

(45:09):
for me as well. Yeah.
So you're still playing tennis competitively?
How does staying active contribute to your overall
mindset and well-being? Well, how did I'm sorry, How
does it contribute to what? Your overall mindset and
well-being. They said, OK, so I have an
active mind. That's that's why I was not good
at golf. I was too mental.

(45:30):
So when I, I play tennis maybe three times a week, I used to
pay, play more, but I go to the gym as well.
But I've learned that whole other area of accepting my
limited physical limitations as I, as I've aged.
But when I'm playing tennis, I'mnot only getting the, the

(45:51):
physical workout and the health that comes from that, I'm in a
social situation and, and in a more light hearted way with, you
know, I, I, I play mainly at thelocal park.
We have double S, you know, and so there's a there's, you know,
camaraderie. There's a lot of things is, is

(46:12):
serious tetanus, but not serioustennis, you know, And so that
sort of lightens my spirit, you know, so if I'm, and I, as I
say, I'm still working and thereare work issues that come up
with some of my properties. I had one that almost burned
down last year. So there's these things that
come up that I that I get into that intense focus because I

(46:35):
still have that part. And so going and playing tennis
maybe in the morning is going tolight lighten that, right?
So or going to the gym or maybe even meditating it, it gives me
again that balance that I that Ineed.
But in many ways I feel that I'mhealthier because I've always

(47:01):
been active, always been active,whether I was jogging, was doing
yoga in later years, more tennis.
So it just gives me just a mental well-being as well as
physical. So I just think feel that's
extremely important. I continue to do that and will.

(47:21):
So if you can give one piece of advice to someone in their 60s
or 70s that are feeling kind of uncertain about the future, what
would it be? Is to embrace the uncertainty OK
and to avoid getting into this acronym for fear that I use
future events already ruined is don't start projecting or being

(47:46):
fearful or speculating because most speculating fine is an are
negative speculations. So you know, embrace it, accept
it the uncertainty and today youdon't have to be in your 60s to
have a lot of uncertainty. What's going on today is embrace
it, feel it accepted as it is and and this lead your life.

(48:10):
You know, do the things that bring you joy, that takes care
of you and your loved ones. And that's the best advice you
know I could offer at this point.
So what do you hope for readers and listeners to take away from
The Way of the Wave? Thank you for the question.
My hope is that they will take away the things that resonate

(48:32):
with them and and benefit by some of my own experiences.
My I like to use word guidance. It's not necessarily a cow to
but that so they can basically enjoy a fuller, more balanced
life and one with less stress and anxiety.

(48:55):
That's the more I'm on the wave or going with the wave.
My life is that way. So my hope is that readers can
take parts of it, resonate with and and apply it to their lives
to their benefit. That would be super great.
I think that's a big thing to under score.
It's not a how to book and we get too many of their self
health books that are do these, you know, bullet points of

(49:18):
things. I think you give a Ave. for
people to be able to be more introspective, evaluate what are
they doing in their life, ask themselves the questions that
can help them to better ride thewaves or I'll use my age.
Well, right. So, you know, it's it's a

(49:39):
really, I think a fantastic bookfor people to read.
It's a, it's an easy read and especially, you know, the short
chapters, you can crank one of those out in 10-15 minutes in a
day and just read a chapter a day, meditate on it, think on
it, how can I improve on this? And I think people can really
benefit from that. Thank you.
Yeah, that was my intention to make them short chapters, good

(50:02):
tension span with so many thingsgoing on today.
And I'll mention I narrated thisbook and very proud and play.
It was really enjoyable experience because it was so
personal is I narrated it and the audiobook.
It can be purchased through any audiobooks site, including
audible. And I will say that you know my

(50:25):
websites Daniel A Miller, where I've written like 150 articles,
short articles again on the control dynamic, acceptance
dynamic and now a little bit more about about the wave.
So I invite your your viewers tocheck it out if they like.
I get the website. Do you do any social media?

(50:47):
Yes to my daughter's help. That's always.
Put me on Instagram a couple months ago and I'm letting her
do that that part a little bit. Facebook, I don't do Twitter.
So yeah, I'm not a huge social media person, but I that could
be age, you know, because I, I don't know.

(51:09):
But so no, not too much. I'm letting her handle that.
So I'm guessing your your kids are probably about my age, early
60s, late 50s. So they're not quite that.
Twitter. Instagram.
My son is 50. My daughter Laura is 36.
My daughter Laura is 28. OK, so they are young enough to

(51:30):
give you your social media. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, with a 16 year old daughter, if somebody can be
definitely critical, what I should be doing for social media
and oh. On your on your podcast, OK, so
you're in that situation. No, it's just.
Yeah, I had my kids a little bitlater, says is Appears you did

(51:51):
as well. I did too.
Yeah, I did too. So we talked about kind of the
website where, you know, listeners can kind of connect
with you, the amount of social media available, but more
importantly, where can they findthe book?
Sure. You know, Amazon of course has
all three, Apple iTunes. I have a Barnes and Noble and I

(52:13):
have it this time. I have a Google Books or Google
Play Books. And so any of those sites and
encourage people to, you know, through their local favorite
bookstore, we we need to encourage that business so it
can be ordered through them as well.
So pretty much everywhere. And hopefully our local
libraries are still ordering books as well.

(52:36):
But. They they are at some my books
are at some libraries and what I've done on the audio book with
the life. I just learned this that it's
very inexpensive for people to check out an audio book at a
library. And I priced the audio book very
low for libraries because I wantto encourage, you know, people

(52:57):
that that enjoy their libraries and readers.
I mean to have access to my books.
Yeah, I haven't dived into the the audio book world quite yet
and a lot of people really enjoythe audio books.
I'm still kind of a paper in my hand kind of book and.
No, I am too. I am too, but audio books are
really big the market. I mean, more and more people

(53:19):
like they're going on a trip or you know, or driving around.
They they have that audiobook. So I don't, I don't listen to
too many myself, but I put it out there for those who do.
And So what? What's giving you joy right now?
What are you doing personally toage well, in addition to what
we've already talked about? Well, this morning I'm speaking

(53:40):
with you. So that's one thing.
I I'm, I'm enjoying this conversation, you know,
likewise. Yeah.
And I am enjoying speaking, you know, you know, my book covers
different subjects, you know, ofour lives, you know, you know,
parenting our children and the aging sports work, you know,

(54:03):
those things. So I'm speaking mainly to
podcasters or radio interviews on those different topics.
And I really enjoyed that. I am.
I'm doing a little writing mainly on my website, some short
blog posts right now, some Q&A'sthat relate to the wave probably

(54:25):
have about 20 of those coming up.
I'm doing like one every week. So I know I want to be still
engaged in, in the writing as well.
So right now I'm I'm pretty active and again, this thing
about accepting my limitations, what what I'm learning, and I
learned this probably at least five or six years ago is, you

(54:46):
know, when I'm specially engagedmentally, whether it's on a
podcast or work, is I have less energy overtime.
I mean, I could be on something for an hour and an hour and a
half and I'm tired, you know, met So I've learned to take naps
in the afternoon. I could never nap when I was
controlling, but I can it now can enjoy a nice little, you

(55:09):
know, 45 minute hour nap as well.
So life is full, Life is full. And what's your favorite subject
to paint? Well, this is really interesting
because I painted a lot of wavesand ocean scenes, which I love.
I've gotten into abstract painting in the last five years
of something I didn't think I could do.
And I'm still I have some, I have some of my paintings on the

(55:32):
website as well, and I just posted a few of the abstract
ones. And what I enjoy about it is I
don't know where they're going, you know, and, and I, I tell the
story that one in the book is 1.I decided just to engrossed with
the different colors, you know, and not think about it's as a

(55:54):
subject or topic or certain intention.
And I would turn the canvas sideways and upside from side
looking at it from different angles.
And I keep painting and and then, you know, probably I did
this for maybe over 2 days, maybe 3 hours or something.
And one time I looked at it. Is it, I think the paintings

(56:16):
done, you know, because one of the problems I had earlier in
painting is I didn't know when to stop, you know, and you got
to know when to stop, you know, And so I stopped and it's
probably my favorite painting isit's on my whip and I call it
free flow, free flow because this abstract is a little bit to
me like being on the wave. So I'm doing that now, but I

(56:40):
still like ocean scenes, you know, and landscapes.
When I was younger, I would do alot of plain air.
I would take my easel and I willgo out into the hills or be in
nature and, and paint and that in your outdoors, it's
invigorating. You're just feeling the freedom
of of being outdoors and really,really enjoy that as well.

(57:01):
So were you trained at all in painting and writing?
Neither. Maybe writing, but not really
trained. That was more legal writing.
You know, more that type of business.
Writing and painting is sort of an interesting story.
I had collected the works of a of a friend, an impressionist
painter over the years and and one day when I when his at his

(57:27):
house studio, he said, Dan, let's paint.
So he, he sat me down. I was in my mid 40s.
He sat me down and said a littlestill like little mirror with
some fruit being reflected underthat mirror.
And we painted and I was enthralled.
It was like, Oh my goodness, this is so much fun.

(57:48):
And I, his name is Paul Evantoff.
He's now has a business called the Wizard of Art.
And he is a wizard. And I called him a couple months
later. No, I said, can I have another
lesson next week? Said no, just go paint for six
months. And I did.
And then I called him and then Idon't know.

(58:10):
We talked about I don't think heeven gave me another lesson and
then this was really intensely working.
And so I actually had the EI putthe easel by my desk so I'd be
work and then I get up and I paint and I go back and forth
and I was productive A niche. The painting released all this
control stuff that I'm dealing with the intensity, you know of

(58:35):
that to a more free freeness. So I I start coming out with
pretty remarkable paintings, given that I never felt I could
draw or or pain as a kid. I was like, I was a little
surprised and then I got a little too serious.
Then I start tending workshops, you know, go away maybe on two

(58:56):
or three day working retreat or,or different lessons.
And I'll remember, never forget I went to Vermont where they had
the beautiful colors and it was a five day workshop where you
had a different master instructor every day, each day.
Excuse me. I got so confused because each

(59:18):
one had different principles, different ways of doing it.
And I'm trying to do what they're do in.
I came back frustrated, you know, and I felt I whatever I
had, I lost it. And I called Paul Ebentov and
after about six months of struggling and I said, Paul, I
can't paint anymore, what do I do?

(59:39):
And he said, well, I'll share with you.
He had graduated from the Maryland Institute of Art
Masters in art. I'll share with you what the the
Dean said that on our date of graduation, he said, now you all
just go out and paint and forgeteverything you learned.
And that was great advice. And I just started painting even

(01:00:01):
in a way I want to say better, you know, and, and to this day.
That is just, you know, such great advice, you know, don't
get too much into your head, youknow, being willing to let go,
don't overthink it, you know, try to go accept whatever's
happening and embrace the failures as well, you know, or

(01:00:23):
the so-called failures is not every painting is going to turn
out, you know, and most probablydon't for me, but some do.
And I wish I could tell you whatthe secret is.
I don't I don't know myself. That is the being in the
creative flow and just allowing,allowing.
And again, that my, the book I talk about, I believe that these

(01:00:46):
things I talk about is the obstacles to the flow, the
judging, the expecting, you know, the harsh self criticisms
and self judgments. And you know, those types of
things, lack of humility, they obstruct the creative flow too.
And so that's what I also hope that readers will take away,

(01:01:08):
that what I write about and the subjects are write about can
apply to so many of their life arenas, you know, and.
What I'm hearing too is that if we are controlling, we may kind
of go down a pathway of, OK, I can, I'm going to start pursuing
art so that I can be less controlling in my work
environment and we suddenly start to become controlling in

(01:01:29):
that art environment. And so it's a matter of learning
to let go of control in all aspects of our lives and try and
be as balanced and multi dimensional as possible and just
go with the flow. You got it, You got it.
So did I, Did I learn what I wassupposed to learn from your
book? Well, time will tell.

(01:01:51):
We'll see. I mean, I one thing I really got
from the book is that if this isn't a fix all, it's not like
you're going to read the book. You say, OK, now I'm just going
to ride the waves. I'm not going to be controlling.
We have a tendency if we are controllers, we are going to
free ourselves of that control for a while and then we're going
to get sucked into a riptide fora while and, you know, have to

(01:02:13):
kind of find our way out of it. And it just kind of occurred to
me analogy I've used. So it's not necessary riding the
waves, but riding the current number of years ago, I went
whitewater rafting with some friends and we were instructed
before we went out, you know, what to do if you got caught in
a hydraulic, which is where the water pulls you down.

(01:02:35):
And the idea is just relax and let yourself pop up out of it.
And I was actually excited, you know, because we got dumped off
in a Class 5 rapid and we got into a hydraulic and I just
relaxed and kind of popped up. The guys I went with, they were
all like, they thought their lives flashed before their eyes.
And I was like, that was awesome.
I want to do that again. And it kind of caused a rift

(01:02:57):
between us because they thought I was in denial that, you know,
I was scared. And it was like, it's kind of
part of life. We're going to get sucked into
those things. The key is to just let ourselves
ride out of it. And then, you know, then we're
ready for the next current, the next wave.
And so I think this is a great analogy that can be applied to

(01:03:19):
really any aspect of our life. So I'm going to plug the book
here and, and encourage everybody to go out and get it.
I enjoyed it. I, I do a fair number of author
interviews on this podcast and Idon't always, because of time,
get to read every page of every book.
I get to read as much as I can, but this is when I read
literally every page, read through the entire thing and

(01:03:41):
really I feel like I got something out of it.
So time will tell. You might have to check back
with me in about 6 months and see if I'm I'm doing better.
Thank you for that. Makes me feel really good.
Thank you, Jeff. Well, thank you for writing the
book and for coming on the podcast today.
Is there anything we missed thatyou you need to see the audience
as we sign off? I think we cover pretty much

(01:04:02):
everything. Yeah, All right.
Well, keep riding the wave, keepaging well, and keep doing what
you're doing. You too.
Take care. Thank you for listening.
Hope you benefited from today's podcast and until next time,
keep aging well.

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Episode 455 | The Way of the Wave | Embrace the Ebb and Flow of Aging | Daniel A. Miller

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Episode 455 | The Way of the Wave | Embrace the Ebb and Flow of Aging | Daniel A. Miller