January 15, 2025 • 25 mins
This episode dives into the transformative potential of generative AI in sales training, focusing on how it can enhance role-playing exercises for sales reps. We discuss practical applications, share insights from real-world experiences, and highlight how to effectively integrate AI into sales processes for skill building.
- Discuss the advantages of using generative AI for role-playing in sales training
- Explore the concept of memory in AI tools and how it aids learning
- Share survey results on the current usage of AI for role-playing among sales professionals
- Emphasize the importance of foundational knowledge in sales personas and objections
- Provide tips for effective role-playing exercises without the pressure of management scrutiny
- Highlight the value of repetition and manual engagement for skill retention
- Discuss the significance of understanding industry knowledge and buyer personas
- Share insights on building and utilizing customized AI prompts for practice sessions
If you are interested in learning more about leveraging ChatGPT and generative AI for sales, join our workshops!
Join the AI-Powered Seller Newsletter: https://bit.ly/ai-powered-seller-newsletter
Sign up for Custom GPTs: https://link.meetjourney.ai/aff_ad?campaign_id=4859&aff_id=2751&source=Jake-KD-Podcast&hostNameId=24435
Connect with Jake: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jakedunlap/
Connect with KD: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kddorsey3/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
all right.
So here we go, man.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
What's up, mr kevin dorsey how we doing, mr dunlap,
how are we?
Doing honestly, as I open withthat, I'm still jealous that you
get mr dunlap at the countryclub and I don't.
It frustrates me, it does alittle bit where they say mr
dunlap maybe it's just I just gotoo much.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Maybe that's actually a sign where, like right I go,
I go too much.
Well again, and you know thestory of justin dunlap at our
club there's also justin dunlapand sometimes justin dunlap gets
the uh high noons and coffee isnot always, uh, the most like,
like I tell him my name.
You know what I mean.
(00:45):
Like I'm not trying to do thisto you, justin.
I've still never met Justin,which I think is probably a good
thing.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Probably a good thing , Not that?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I mean, it's not my fault, right?
I'm not like yeah, yeah, I'mJustin, you know, or anything
like that.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well, for anybody listening.
I'll be honest, though.
When they ask Jake his name atthe country club, he's like the
judeun lap, so he doesn't judeunlap.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
He doesn't say the jate, so it's not it's fine, are
you sure it's not just becauseI've had like four uh?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
that also might be true.
Five high noons or so maybe thehigh noon, but no matter what,
it's like judeun lap, but likewe know who you are, sir, um,
all right, what's going on?
Speaker 1 (01:20):
everyone?
Welcome to another episode.
We got 25 minutes here where meand mr kevin dorsey are going
to dive in and just talk aboutall things generative AI, what
we're seeing in the RevOrgs, anyother topics that we think are
relevant.
Today.
We're going to talk aboutdifferent ways to leverage
generative AI to simulate calls,to do additional role play, and
(01:44):
I think we're at the verybeginning of this.
There's some tools I've alreadyseen that have come out, that
are a little robotic, but theidea that you can utilize
generative AI to build skillfaster in what might not be a
perfect real-world simulation,but is continuing to get there
more and more.
(02:09):
I think it's just an importantthing for people to realize this
kind of new tool that theyprobably have in their tool belt
.
Right, that, you know.
Is it perfect today?
No, but if you're somebodywho's a rep, or you're building
an onboarding plan, or you're aleader and you want a chance to
get your reps, maybe it's not ina perfect scenario, but you
know, usually I mean KD it takes, you know, three months for a
rep to get their first 20meetings, you know, or maybe
(02:31):
longer, but imagine a worldwhere you know, as they're doing
, that they can go in thesimulator and, again, it's not a
perfect simulator, right, butthey can start to do more and
more and more of that.
So we're going to talk throughsome of those applications.
Do more and more and more ofthat, so we're going to talk
through some of thoseapplications.
I really believe we're going tobe able to ramp reps much, much
faster than before because ofthis simulator, but we'll get
(02:52):
into some of those details.
You started on that same memory.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I have now, once I've stepped on the road a lot, but,
yes, starting to, so itremembers and keeps the train of
thought going makes even someof the things we're talking
about today with role-playingvery powerful.
So I think this is great.
What I didn't realize until oneof the things you actually
shared, Brian put together, wasthe ability to turn it on and
off.
I think that's also verypowerful as well.
(03:17):
So, yeah, I'm really enjoyingit.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah, exactly, and the ability.
So for those of you, just thinkabout it, what it allows you to
do and again, we'll just do alot of.
You might already know this,but each individual chat GPT
thread is its own memory.
I call it its own little babybrain.
It doesn't have any clue whatthe rest of them do, and what
memory allows you to do is justin any of those baby brain chats
, just quickly say always,remember that I'm Jake Dunlap,
(03:44):
ceo of Scaled Consulting, and Isell to this persona, right, or
something like that, right?
So then I don't have to alwaysdo that, I don't have to say,
hey, here's the link, here'swhat we do, etc.
So I think memory is the firststep to this kind of dynamic
learning.
It'll continue to evolve.
We don't know when ChatGPT 5 isgoing to come out, but if you
(04:08):
see what's just happened in thelast six months with custom GPTs
memory, those types of thingsyou're just going to see more
and more of these types ofthings pop up.
Somebody asked memory is just afeature in OpenAI.
So if you have the paid version, you automatically get memory.
Just go to your settings,personalization, and then you'll
(04:30):
see memory pop up.
So that's a good one.
So next up, we've got here.
We've done some of this.
We did a survey here which washave you ever used ChatGPT to
role play?
So the results then let me pullup this poll and we'll pull
this one up.
The results then were like noright.
(04:50):
So I think we had.
What were the percents here?
Katie, what did we have interms of?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
people that were using it 70% said they don't use
it to role play.
I was like just under 70%, Ithink.
20% said like, oh, like acouple of times and know very
small like said oh, we use itconstantly.
Like 16 said like constantlyused it.
Yeah, so the the vast majorityfell into the don't use it at
(05:16):
all bucket.
And then the next big one, justlike 80, 20, always.
You know 80 of them eitherdon't do it or did it once or
twice and then stopped.
And then 20% have done itregularly.
It was like 16% or something.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
All right.
Well, let's see if Pete, let'ssee if this is changing at all.
As we jump into, maybe aftertoday, it will, you know, maybe
after today people are like, ohcrap, I didn't even think about
that.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Well, and I'm excited to give my answer to this
because it's a different way tolook at this process, with role
plays, um, which, because Idon't look at the favorite way
to role play based off whatwe're practicing, I'm looking at
it based off what are thethings we have to ingrain.
So there's certain parts ofeach of this right where it's
(06:01):
like the everyone talks about.
You know you can't script outeverything, which is true.
You can't script out everything, but damn it.
You know what 80 of theobjections are.
You know what 80 of the usecases are.
You know it's the highrepetition things and the way I
described this to my teaminternally when we started to
use this because you werecalling it out a little bit
earlier like it's not perfect.
It's not.
(06:21):
It's like I used it as anexample of hitting off a tee.
Hitting off a tee is notexciting.
Hitting off a tee is not like aperfect scenario, planning for
a curveball coming from aleft-hander, but it's the
foundation to put in.
That's what this type ofpractice is.
For me, it's that hitting offthe tee right Each and every day
(06:43):
of, like the objections, do it20 times.
Okay, disco questions do it 20times.
It's a little bit more on therepetition than it is creating a
perfect scenario that's goingto mimic your buyer perfectly.
It's like no.
What are the things you knowreps need to be doing?
And saying that's how you buildout the role plays in.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
ChatGVT.
Yeah, I love that and I thinkthat that's the spot on way to
think about it.
It's like's like hey, you know,we sell to this type of persona
.
You know, and these are thefour industries, right?
So can I get those at-bats on?
You know, hey, what again doesa VP of ops care about in
manufacturing?
Like what are those things?
(07:22):
So, again to your point, by thetime, you know that way,
whenever I get, you know, justlike a professional athlete goes
and trains and does like arepetition, you know over and
over again off the tee.
Or you know, shoots abasketball, you know a hundred
times from one place, you know.
When you get in this situationnow, you're like, oh okay, Like
I'm much more equipped now.
So it seems like, again, mostpeople still aren't using it.
(07:45):
So we've got 63%, which I don'tknow if there's a statistically
large enough amount of peoplethat have voted, that are using
it.
So that's exciting.
I think that's exciting forthose of you tuning in today to
really be able to dive in andtry to see what's possible as a
(08:06):
part of this.
So, all right, so before we,before we dive in, last thing
we'll share here, which isreally exciting, Some of you who
are watching now have maybeattended one of our workshops
before, which are more hands-onversions of a lot of the things
we talk about officially today.
(08:27):
If you have already attended,some of you might be like well,
Jake, I already attended theworkshops, no problem, you will
also get access at no additionalcost to these new ones we have.
We've got a 101 intro to chatGPT, a 201 advanced chat GPT
prompting and a 301 advancedcustom GPTs, which really help
you to understand how to buildprompting into the back end to
(08:49):
make you know these, what wewould call these agents.
So if you're somebody who'slike Jake, I love these sessions
with you and Katie, these chatGPT workshops the 101, the 201
and the 301.
You know these again to me andKatie and I talk about this all
the time.
You learning these tools is notoptional.
(09:10):
It's just about when Everyonewill have to know how to
leverage chat GPT and generativeAI in their day-to-day and you
can choose.
You want to learn how theinternet works in 1996 or 1999.
So, whichever one you want touse, that, that's really up to
(09:31):
you.
But that's how transformationalthis is and I think what would
you?
What would you tell anyone kdagain.
Who's like you know, jake, Itune in.
This is interesting.
Like what would you tell anyonein terms of, like you know,
getting up to speed?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
uh, as well what I was about to say.
There is like, I think there'sa lot of people that you don't
know what you don't know yet,and so, like, coming into like
the workshops, coming into someof the pre-built bots, is it'll
show you new things that maybeyou haven't considered yet.
Right, like, even looking atthe, the audience today, 70 of
people aren't role-playing yet.
(10:04):
Still, with jad gbt, it's likethings like it's a lot of like
you don't know what you don'tknow, so he's showing up,
getting in there.
It'll show you things like oh,then you can go, then you can
start to dabble a little bitmore.
A company I'm working with rightnow they're asking they asked
the orgs like hey, where do youwant AI to help?
Where do you want AI to help?
(10:26):
Right, and they start writingout their lists and I I called
the list faster horses lists,right, the old henry ford quote.
Whereas if I asked people whatthey wanted, they would have
said faster horses, but he builta car, right?
So when people don't know whatai is capable of, they can't
fathom the right things to evenask for for.
(10:46):
And so that's why I think it'sso valuable for these workshops,
for these pre-built GPTs.
It'll show people what'spossible that ideally they can
build upon.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
So let's talk about the main topic, which is this
idea of role-playing, and let'sthink about hiring a new rep.
Right, and you know, and you'vehired hundreds, probably
thousands of reps.
What are the things that you'relike, you know, and not even a,
not even a new rep?
Right, and you know, and you'vehired hundreds, probably 1000s
of reps.
What are the things that you'relike, you know, and not even,
not even a new rep?
Maybe that's, maybe, that's a,maybe you can talk about both
(11:16):
new rep and, you know, drillingwith your team.
What are the things that youthink about when you're like,
you know, we've talked a littlebit about some of them already,
but if I said, katie, if I couldteach my team to get better at
these one or two things like,what would those be?
So like?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
skill wise with the role playing or just yeah,
exactly yeah, exactly Like.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
What are the things that maybe you know?
Maybe it's not even roleplaying.
It's like I said, hey, at thefoundation of sales, I want to
make this person on my teambetter, Right, what are the
things that you would have thempractice?
You know you talk again.
You talk about the golf swing,right, the repetition.
What are the things that youthink are most important?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
And then, maybe even as people get more tenure, that
they kind of forget that willhelp people to get better and
close more or sell more bookmore meetings.
Yeah, so the first big one thatwe do talk about a lot is
actually knowing the personasRight, but at a more detailed
level and making it activelearning, not passive learning
Like we talked about this sevenor eight episodes ago.
What I love about this is youhave to engage right.
So more often than not whenyou're onboarding reps, you tell
(12:21):
them what the personas are.
They read it.
They never have to fillanything out, they're never
typing anything, they're neverfilling in the blanks, anything
like that.
So persona and industryknowledge is huge to quiz them
on on a regular basis, right,like if I anyone listening, I
don't care what your industry is.
If I pinged your reps right nowand ask them the top three
(12:43):
personas, the top three painpoints of those personas, the
top three impacts of those painpoints, cause and the common
solutions that people have inplace to do it and why you're
better, how well would they do?
That's right, and you got toask yourself that tough question
.
Those are foundational.
How well would your entire teamdo right now?
So that's, first and foremost,industry knowledge, persona
(13:05):
knowledge, impact knowledge.
Then we get into, I'll say, theknown knowns.
What are the most commonquestions that need to be asked
in discovery?
That's a known known.
What are your most commonobjections?
That's a known known Like.
We know these things and wehave a best practice.
That is where this is justfoundational for me in terms of
(13:26):
teams is I call it the 2am test,so like there's a bucket of
things that I call like I putthem in the 2am test.
So like there's a bucket ofthings that I call like I put
them in the 2am bucket.
I mean I should be able to hitup Jake at two o'clock in the
morning on a Saturday, itdoesn't matter how many high
noons he has.
And I say you know what we'rethinking of, sticking with our
current setup and funny enough,I know Jake would pass this test
(13:46):
he would be able to snap intomode immediately and handle that
objection.
That's a known known.
So that's how I'm looking at itis objections, the known known,
the most powerful questions,known knowns and then the
persona and industry knowledgeknown knowns.
That's where I focus the mostwith this.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, I think that's such a good point to bring up.
If you think about the numberone reason or the number one way
in the survey people said wasobjection handling, and I call
it.
What I say is these knownknowns, and it is shocking to me
that how and again, much morefrequently than not, I would say
(14:25):
seven out of 10.
Much more frequently than not,I would say seven out of 10.
When people get, when a repgets an objection, I call it
it's like Mike Tyson punched himin the mouth Like what Well?
And then it's like they go intopanic mode and it's like how do
you?
not think like guys, if it wasjust, if it was called
information giving, I wouldn'tpay you commission, right?
(14:47):
Like, of course.
And the other thing is thisreframing of like.
It's not an objection, it's afucking question.
I'm just asking a question,like you don't need to get
flustered.
I'm literally just saying howdoes this integrate with this
and I think these known unknowns?
It's again, it's not.
There's not an infinitevariations of them.
You know there's a finitenumber of them, right, for all
(15:12):
your products.
You only solve four or fiveproblems.
You don't solve 85 problems.
There's only going to be fouror five common things that
people bring up much moreeffective in terms of again,
like, oh, they said that, boom,I can test that.
Boom, I can test that.
(15:33):
And again, it's like thoseat-bats that you know your boss
is busy.
Maybe they can role play withyou a few times a month, like
there's just so much opportunityhere that you don't need to
wait around for your boss, youcan do it yourself.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
And what's interesting about this?
Because I've been a practiceguy for a decade, right, people
know that about me.
That's something built into myteams.
I think I've fine-tuned itpretty well on how to run a good
practice session with a rep andgo through it.
There's always that fear ofjudgment when you're practicing
with your boss Always, right, Imade a big whoopsie daisy.
(16:01):
I was invited to a call, rightwhere there's a large deal that
the company is trying to close.
I was where there's a largedeal that, um, the company is
trying to close.
I was advised.
I was invited to the call.
They're like hey, we want katieto join.
And I was like are you sure?
Are you sure you want is?
Is the rep ready for me to beon this call?
Because that's going to createa whole level of like nerves and
(16:21):
anxiousness.
Like oh, yeah, no, like they'reyeah, it's all good.
I jumped on it and it was.
It was awful.
Like it really went poorly andthe manager was like I can hear
it.
I can hear it and I was likethat emotion.
So the role playing with gpttakes some of that emotion away
too.
I'm just trying to get better.
I'm not being judged on thisright now I'm just trying to get
better, and reps actually, oncethey got used to it, engaged
(16:43):
with it really well yeah, well,I think that's a good call out.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
That's more of like a .
Also, just, this is more of atips and tricks, which is what
you get from me and Katie too,which is, you know people that
have been on thousands, if nottens of thousands, of calls and
listen into reps calls is, ifyou want to run a meeting with
your boss and now I make sure totell them what is my role Make
sure you always say if you'rethe leader, say hey, what do you
want my role to be?
And if you're a leader, listento me.
(17:08):
Now leaders, stop being captain, save the deal.
Okay, if you tell me, jake,this is what I want your role to
be, I'm going to play that role.
(17:29):
But if you don't, I got to likeyou know, half the conflict you
create with having your boss onthe call is call is your fault,
right, whether it's your faultas a leader or your fault as a
rep.
Like it's your your job to tellthem.
And look, there are don't bewrong, there are bad managers
that were like they can't helpthemselves.
But you know, pro tip there,try to manage up like you can,
so you could.
Even so, this is like anexample of what a good custom
gpt looks like, where, again,like task one, you can literally
just like upload it.
(17:49):
And again, I'll just kind of youknow, kind of go through this,
like Clayton is the personthey're trying to meet with,
right, right?
So then this is like I'm goingto gather some things around
Clayton, here's our website, I'man AE and it's like great,
let's like jump into this stuffand again, like what you'll see
here is like hey, good to hearbusy, blah, blah, blah.
It'll try to mimic some ofthese natural language things
(18:12):
and I will tell you this toKatie's point, it won't really.
Chatgpt is purposely trained Ithink everybody needs to know
this to be very passive andaccepting.
And even when you tell it to belike more direct, it still will
never quite get to what a callis.
But again, you can start to seeit.
(18:34):
What it will do is it'll say,hey, for this type of company
that sells into this industry,for this type of persona, it's
going to start to pull out thoseKPIs or like the things that
the industry trends, what's topof mind, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
And so, again, it's and I'll touch on there real
quick Jake, yeah, do it.
And I don't know if this isgoing to rattle anybody or not,
but like, at its core y'all,like, until your reps can do an
easy call, the hard stuffdoesn't matter.
And what happens like for mostany org that's out there
struggling right now, reps thatare struggling for the most part
(19:09):
they're not handling the normalcalls well, let alone like the
more tough, challenging,whatever it's like.
Are they even running thenormal calls to the level that
you want them to?
It's making sure that thefoundation is so strong, right,
(19:30):
like, sometimes there's too manysports analogies, but it's like
look, you don't practice a 360dunk to get better at basketball
.
You get better at basketballthat can eventually pull it off.
You don't do multiple fingerscales when you're playing
guitar.
You're doing the basic onesfirst and then you can pull it
off.
That's the key to this y'all isthat 2AM test.
Your reps should be able to doa normal call.
Well, I don't worry, we have arule.
(19:53):
We don't go down the yeah, butfunnel when we're training or
coaching.
But yeah, but what if they askwhat we're going to do for the
left-handed, dyslexic people onthe team.
When we get that objection,we'll handle it.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Until you can handle the how much is this cost
question, nothing else matters,right?
So it's just getting thatrepetition.
I can't stress that enough.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
And again, I think what a lot of people hopefully
should think about what we'retalking about here, about
repetitions, is, you know, it isokay, and especially for a lot
of you, if you're a newer rep ormaybe you're someone who just
wants to get better at that likewrite down what you say.
You know, I think too often,katie, it's like they don't take
the time, like, okay, how doyou handle that?
And again, you've got maybeyour battle card or whatever.
(20:38):
Write it in your own languageand drill that thing and you can
.
Again, you can use chat GPT tojust go back and forth and back
and forth.
You can say, hey, always giveme an objection, always give me
at least one objection withevery response and that will
just train it more and more andmore.
And so for a vast majority ofyou who aren't using this to
role play, again, don't focus asmuch on can I get you at GPT to
(21:05):
be as aggressive as I want itto be.
You're not going to do thatright now.
It's just not going to be ableto simulate it.
But can it get somebody thesame at bats on this use case,
this objection, how we solve fortrends in an industry?
Yeah, it can do that now.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
This is what we were doing, if you saw it, when, jake
, you can upload something.
So what we've always done withour orgs, we call it TyWIC,
right?
This is what you know, and sowe would pre-build these, right?
So we would build a TyWik oflike, all right, what's the
skill we're working on, whatdoes good look like?
But then this is what you knowthe persona, the title, the
(21:44):
situation, like what you've saidbefore, this is actually what
we were uploading in for it todo.
The role play is we would buildthe scenario and the skill that
we're working on, then uploadthat doc and then go back and
forth with it, because it alsoincluded the what good looks
like.
But it was the idea of theTywick.
This is what you know, and thisis also what makes, I think,
the role playing better in GPTs.
(22:05):
It forces that, becauseotherwise, a lot of times,
managers are like all right,jake, so I'm going to be Bob at
Superbiz, let's go, that's right.
Like make it real, make itactually an account and
everything else.
So, Tywick, this is what youknow.
That's what feeds the role playsession even better.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
That's kind of how this works for a lot of you is
understand.
It's like there's this initialawakening, then you get
overwhelmed and then you're likethese are the two ways I'm
going to use it and so you don'thave to worry about do I know
everything about this.
And that's kind of our goal indoing this is to say, look,
here's a new way that now youcan add to your arsenal to get
up to speed.
(22:42):
So for all of you, yourhomework for today is to go look
at your.
Whether you're somebody who'sresponsible for setting meetings
, someone responsible forclosing deals, it could be that,
hey, what you need to do is youneed to work on your executive
presence.
Maybe you're somebody whostruggles in executives.
You can take this same idea andbe like, hey, I need to get
better at communicating withCFOs and I want you to be a very
(23:03):
jargony CFO of a fintechcompany with 200 people that is
very skeptical of almosteverything, and I want to
practice doing executive levelcommunication.
So the way that I either findmy, the way that I either find
on my phone, I can literallytalk to it, or I can type it in,
et cetera.
So you just think about that'syour homework.
(23:24):
Everyone is just think aboutwhat is something in your sales
process or setting meetings orworking with your current
accounts and just go focus onthat use case.
You know, dme, dmkd, if you'reinterested in learning more
about really any of this um kd,any final thoughts on this topic
?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
uh, or you know, if you were sitting in somebody's
shoes, what you would do next Idid both with my teams
internally, like dictation andtyping, and I actually came back
to typing and I'll share thereason why is I actually wanted
the manual nature of it?
Because my goal on this isretention and repetition.
Think about it, Think about it.
(24:02):
So when you have to think aboutit and type it out, yes it's
slower, but that's actuallyincreasing retention, which is
also the goal of a role play.
So don't err too far to make iteasier with voice.
I actually want it to be slowerbecause it forces them to think
(24:22):
and engage.
So it's actually powerful to doa written type role play, not
just the voice.
So just something I wanted tokind of leave people with.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I love that man.
And again, it's just like youknow, if there's a book, I mean
just to kind of you know, doubledown on that.
If there's a book, I mean justto kind of you know, double down
on that.
If there's a book that I'm like, I really want to retain it.
I do both.
I get the audible version and Iget right.
I get the kindle version withthe audible and I find that it
just it helps out sodramatically as opposed to when
I just do audible.
I think a lot of people check alot of book boxes by doing
(24:52):
audible but you're multitaskingand you're not paying attention.
So I still default to theKindle version more often than
not, but I feel like the comboworks.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Novel.
Ravikant said it well it's likelistening to your books is like
drinking your vegetables.
That was his analogy.
Yeah, I like that, it is sothank you for tuning in.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
If you're on YouTube or listening if you're on the
podcast, make sure to subscribe.
Subscribe to the newsletter,some of the other things we've
got in the show notes, and we'llsee you on the next episode.
Hell yeah, Appreciate you All,right, man.
all right.
So here we go, man.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
What's up, mr kevin dorsey how we doing, mr dunlap,
how are we?
Doing honestly, as I open withthat, I'm still jealous that you
get mr dunlap at the countryclub and I don't.
It frustrates me, it does alittle bit where they say mr
dunlap maybe it's just I just gotoo much.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Maybe that's actually a sign where, like right I go,
I go too much.
Well again, and you know thestory of justin dunlap at our
club there's also justin dunlapand sometimes justin dunlap gets
the uh high noons and coffee isnot always, uh, the most like,
like I tell him my name.
You know what I mean.
(00:45):
Like I'm not trying to do thisto you, justin.
I've still never met Justin,which I think is probably a good
thing.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Probably a good thing , Not that?
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I mean, it's not my fault, right?
I'm not like yeah, yeah, I'mJustin, you know, or anything
like that.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Well, for anybody listening.
I'll be honest, though.
When they ask Jake his name atthe country club, he's like the
judeun lap, so he doesn't judeunlap.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
He doesn't say the jate, so it's not it's fine, are
you sure it's not just becauseI've had like four uh?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
that also might be true.
Five high noons or so maybe thehigh noon, but no matter what,
it's like judeun lap, but likewe know who you are, sir, um,
all right, what's going on?
Speaker 1 (01:20):
everyone?
Welcome to another episode.
We got 25 minutes here where meand mr kevin dorsey are going
to dive in and just talk aboutall things generative AI, what
we're seeing in the RevOrgs, anyother topics that we think are
relevant.
Today.
We're going to talk aboutdifferent ways to leverage
generative AI to simulate calls,to do additional role play, and
(01:44):
I think we're at the verybeginning of this.
There's some tools I've alreadyseen that have come out, that
are a little robotic, but theidea that you can utilize
generative AI to build skillfaster in what might not be a
perfect real-world simulation,but is continuing to get there
more and more.
(02:09):
I think it's just an importantthing for people to realize this
kind of new tool that theyprobably have in their tool belt
.
Right, that, you know.
Is it perfect today?
No, but if you're somebodywho's a rep, or you're building
an onboarding plan, or you're aleader and you want a chance to
get your reps, maybe it's not ina perfect scenario, but you
know, usually I mean KD it takes, you know, three months for a
rep to get their first 20meetings, you know, or maybe
(02:31):
longer, but imagine a worldwhere you know, as they're doing
, that they can go in thesimulator and, again, it's not a
perfect simulator, right, butthey can start to do more and
more and more of that.
So we're going to talk throughsome of those applications.
Do more and more and more ofthat, so we're going to talk
through some of thoseapplications.
I really believe we're going tobe able to ramp reps much, much
faster than before because ofthis simulator, but we'll get
(02:52):
into some of those details.
You started on that same memory.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I have now, once I've stepped on the road a lot, but,
yes, starting to, so itremembers and keeps the train of
thought going makes even someof the things we're talking
about today with role-playingvery powerful.
So I think this is great.
What I didn't realize until oneof the things you actually
shared, Brian put together, wasthe ability to turn it on and
off.
I think that's also verypowerful as well.
(03:17):
So, yeah, I'm really enjoyingit.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yeah, exactly, and the ability.
So for those of you, just thinkabout it, what it allows you to
do and again, we'll just do alot of.
You might already know this,but each individual chat GPT
thread is its own memory.
I call it its own little babybrain.
It doesn't have any clue whatthe rest of them do, and what
memory allows you to do is justin any of those baby brain chats
, just quickly say always,remember that I'm Jake Dunlap,
(03:44):
ceo of Scaled Consulting, and Isell to this persona, right, or
something like that, right?
So then I don't have to alwaysdo that, I don't have to say,
hey, here's the link, here'swhat we do, etc.
So I think memory is the firststep to this kind of dynamic
learning.
It'll continue to evolve.
We don't know when ChatGPT 5 isgoing to come out, but if you
(04:08):
see what's just happened in thelast six months with custom GPTs
memory, those types of thingsyou're just going to see more
and more of these types ofthings pop up.
Somebody asked memory is just afeature in OpenAI.
So if you have the paid version, you automatically get memory.
Just go to your settings,personalization, and then you'll
(04:30):
see memory pop up.
So that's a good one.
So next up, we've got here.
We've done some of this.
We did a survey here which washave you ever used ChatGPT to
role play?
So the results then let me pullup this poll and we'll pull
this one up.
The results then were like noright.
(04:50):
So I think we had.
What were the percents here?
Katie, what did we have interms of?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
people that were using it 70% said they don't use
it to role play.
I was like just under 70%, Ithink.
20% said like, oh, like acouple of times and know very
small like said oh, we use itconstantly.
Like 16 said like constantlyused it.
Yeah, so the the vast majorityfell into the don't use it at
(05:16):
all bucket.
And then the next big one, justlike 80, 20, always.
You know 80 of them eitherdon't do it or did it once or
twice and then stopped.
And then 20% have done itregularly.
It was like 16% or something.
Speaker 1 (05:30):
All right.
Well, let's see if Pete, let'ssee if this is changing at all.
As we jump into, maybe aftertoday, it will, you know, maybe
after today people are like, ohcrap, I didn't even think about
that.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Well, and I'm excited to give my answer to this
because it's a different way tolook at this process, with role
plays, um, which, because Idon't look at the favorite way
to role play based off whatwe're practicing, I'm looking at
it based off what are thethings we have to ingrain.
So there's certain parts ofeach of this right where it's
(06:01):
like the everyone talks about.
You know you can't script outeverything, which is true.
You can't script out everything, but damn it.
You know what 80 of theobjections are.
You know what 80 of the usecases are.
You know it's the highrepetition things and the way I
described this to my teaminternally when we started to
use this because you werecalling it out a little bit
earlier like it's not perfect.
It's not.
(06:21):
It's like I used it as anexample of hitting off a tee.
Hitting off a tee is notexciting.
Hitting off a tee is not like aperfect scenario, planning for
a curveball coming from aleft-hander, but it's the
foundation to put in.
That's what this type ofpractice is.
For me, it's that hitting offthe tee right Each and every day
(06:43):
of, like the objections, do it20 times.
Okay, disco questions do it 20times.
It's a little bit more on therepetition than it is creating a
perfect scenario that's goingto mimic your buyer perfectly.
It's like no.
What are the things you knowreps need to be doing?
And saying that's how you buildout the role plays in.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
ChatGVT.
Yeah, I love that and I thinkthat that's the spot on way to
think about it.
It's like's like hey, you know,we sell to this type of persona
.
You know, and these are thefour industries, right?
So can I get those at-bats on?
You know, hey, what again doesa VP of ops care about in
manufacturing?
Like what are those things?
(07:22):
So, again to your point, by thetime, you know that way,
whenever I get, you know, justlike a professional athlete goes
and trains and does like arepetition, you know over and
over again off the tee.
Or you know, shoots abasketball, you know a hundred
times from one place, you know.
When you get in this situationnow, you're like, oh okay, Like
I'm much more equipped now.
So it seems like, again, mostpeople still aren't using it.
(07:45):
So we've got 63%, which I don'tknow if there's a statistically
large enough amount of peoplethat have voted, that are using
it.
So that's exciting.
I think that's exciting forthose of you tuning in today to
really be able to dive in andtry to see what's possible as a
(08:06):
part of this.
So, all right, so before we,before we dive in, last thing
we'll share here, which isreally exciting, Some of you who
are watching now have maybeattended one of our workshops
before, which are more hands-onversions of a lot of the things
we talk about officially today.
(08:27):
If you have already attended,some of you might be like well,
Jake, I already attended theworkshops, no problem, you will
also get access at no additionalcost to these new ones we have.
We've got a 101 intro to chatGPT, a 201 advanced chat GPT
prompting and a 301 advancedcustom GPTs, which really help
you to understand how to buildprompting into the back end to
(08:49):
make you know these, what wewould call these agents.
So if you're somebody who'slike Jake, I love these sessions
with you and Katie, these chatGPT workshops the 101, the 201
and the 301.
You know these again to me andKatie and I talk about this all
the time.
You learning these tools is notoptional.
(09:10):
It's just about when Everyonewill have to know how to
leverage chat GPT and generativeAI in their day-to-day and you
can choose.
You want to learn how theinternet works in 1996 or 1999.
So, whichever one you want touse, that, that's really up to
(09:31):
you.
But that's how transformationalthis is and I think what would
you?
What would you tell anyone kdagain.
Who's like you know, jake, Itune in.
This is interesting.
Like what would you tell anyonein terms of, like you know,
getting up to speed?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
uh, as well what I was about to say.
There is like, I think there'sa lot of people that you don't
know what you don't know yet,and so, like, coming into like
the workshops, coming into someof the pre-built bots, is it'll
show you new things that maybeyou haven't considered yet.
Right, like, even looking atthe, the audience today, 70 of
people aren't role-playing yet.
(10:04):
Still, with jad gbt, it's likethings like it's a lot of like
you don't know what you don'tknow, so he's showing up,
getting in there.
It'll show you things like oh,then you can go, then you can
start to dabble a little bitmore.
A company I'm working with rightnow they're asking they asked
the orgs like hey, where do youwant AI to help?
Where do you want AI to help?
(10:26):
Right, and they start writingout their lists and I I called
the list faster horses lists,right, the old henry ford quote.
Whereas if I asked people whatthey wanted, they would have
said faster horses, but he builta car, right?
So when people don't know whatai is capable of, they can't
fathom the right things to evenask for for.
(10:46):
And so that's why I think it'sso valuable for these workshops,
for these pre-built GPTs.
It'll show people what'spossible that ideally they can
build upon.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
So let's talk about the main topic, which is this
idea of role-playing, and let'sthink about hiring a new rep.
Right, and you know, and you'vehired hundreds, probably
thousands of reps.
What are the things that you'relike, you know, and not even a,
not even a new rep?
Right, and you know, and you'vehired hundreds, probably 1000s
of reps.
What are the things that you'relike, you know, and not even,
not even a new rep?
Maybe that's, maybe, that's a,maybe you can talk about both
(11:16):
new rep and, you know, drillingwith your team.
What are the things that youthink about when you're like,
you know, we've talked a littlebit about some of them already,
but if I said, katie, if I couldteach my team to get better at
these one or two things like,what would those be?
So like?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
skill wise with the role playing or just yeah,
exactly yeah, exactly Like.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
What are the things that maybe you know?
Maybe it's not even roleplaying.
It's like I said, hey, at thefoundation of sales, I want to
make this person on my teambetter, Right, what are the
things that you would have thempractice?
You know you talk again.
You talk about the golf swing,right, the repetition.
What are the things that youthink are most important?
Speaker 2 (12:01):
And then, maybe even as people get more tenure, that
they kind of forget that willhelp people to get better and
close more or sell more bookmore meetings.
Yeah, so the first big one thatwe do talk about a lot is
actually knowing the personasRight, but at a more detailed
level and making it activelearning, not passive learning
Like we talked about this sevenor eight episodes ago.
What I love about this is youhave to engage right.
So more often than not whenyou're onboarding reps, you tell
(12:21):
them what the personas are.
They read it.
They never have to fillanything out, they're never
typing anything, they're neverfilling in the blanks, anything
like that.
So persona and industryknowledge is huge to quiz them
on on a regular basis, right,like if I anyone listening, I
don't care what your industry is.
If I pinged your reps right nowand ask them the top three
(12:43):
personas, the top three painpoints of those personas, the
top three impacts of those painpoints, cause and the common
solutions that people have inplace to do it and why you're
better, how well would they do?
That's right, and you got toask yourself that tough question
.
Those are foundational.
How well would your entire teamdo right now?
So that's, first and foremost,industry knowledge, persona
(13:05):
knowledge, impact knowledge.
Then we get into, I'll say, theknown knowns.
What are the most commonquestions that need to be asked
in discovery?
That's a known known.
What are your most commonobjections?
That's a known known Like.
We know these things and wehave a best practice.
That is where this is justfoundational for me in terms of
(13:26):
teams is I call it the 2am test,so like there's a bucket of
things that I call like I putthem in the 2am test.
So like there's a bucket ofthings that I call like I put
them in the 2am bucket.
I mean I should be able to hitup Jake at two o'clock in the
morning on a Saturday, itdoesn't matter how many high
noons he has.
And I say you know what we'rethinking of, sticking with our
current setup and funny enough,I know Jake would pass this test
(13:46):
he would be able to snap intomode immediately and handle that
objection.
That's a known known.
So that's how I'm looking at itis objections, the known known,
the most powerful questions,known knowns and then the
persona and industry knowledgeknown knowns.
That's where I focus the mostwith this.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
Yeah, I think that's such a good point to bring up.
If you think about the numberone reason or the number one way
in the survey people said wasobjection handling, and I call
it.
What I say is these knownknowns, and it is shocking to me
that how and again, much morefrequently than not, I would say
(14:25):
seven out of 10.
Much more frequently than not,I would say seven out of 10.
When people get, when a repgets an objection, I call it
it's like Mike Tyson punched himin the mouth Like what Well?
And then it's like they go intopanic mode and it's like how do
you?
not think like guys, if it wasjust, if it was called
information giving, I wouldn'tpay you commission, right?
(14:47):
Like, of course.
And the other thing is thisreframing of like.
It's not an objection, it's afucking question.
I'm just asking a question,like you don't need to get
flustered.
I'm literally just saying howdoes this integrate with this
and I think these known unknowns?
It's again, it's not.
There's not an infinitevariations of them.
You know there's a finitenumber of them, right, for all
(15:12):
your products.
You only solve four or fiveproblems.
You don't solve 85 problems.
There's only going to be fouror five common things that
people bring up much moreeffective in terms of again,
like, oh, they said that, boom,I can test that.
Boom, I can test that.
(15:33):
And again, it's like thoseat-bats that you know your boss
is busy.
Maybe they can role play withyou a few times a month, like
there's just so much opportunityhere that you don't need to
wait around for your boss, youcan do it yourself.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
And what's interesting about this?
Because I've been a practiceguy for a decade, right, people
know that about me.
That's something built into myteams.
I think I've fine-tuned itpretty well on how to run a good
practice session with a rep andgo through it.
There's always that fear ofjudgment when you're practicing
with your boss Always, right, Imade a big whoopsie daisy.
(16:01):
I was invited to a call, rightwhere there's a large deal that
the company is trying to close.
I was where there's a largedeal that, um, the company is
trying to close.
I was advised.
I was invited to the call.
They're like hey, we want katieto join.
And I was like are you sure?
Are you sure you want is?
Is the rep ready for me to beon this call?
Because that's going to createa whole level of like nerves and
(16:21):
anxiousness.
Like oh, yeah, no, like they'reyeah, it's all good.
I jumped on it and it was.
It was awful.
Like it really went poorly andthe manager was like I can hear
it.
I can hear it and I was likethat emotion.
So the role playing with gpttakes some of that emotion away
too.
I'm just trying to get better.
I'm not being judged on thisright now I'm just trying to get
better, and reps actually, oncethey got used to it, engaged
(16:43):
with it really well yeah, well,I think that's a good call out.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
That's more of like a .
Also, just, this is more of atips and tricks, which is what
you get from me and Katie too,which is, you know people that
have been on thousands, if nottens of thousands, of calls and
listen into reps calls is, ifyou want to run a meeting with
your boss and now I make sure totell them what is my role Make
sure you always say if you'rethe leader, say hey, what do you
want my role to be?
And if you're a leader, listento me.
(17:08):
Now leaders, stop being captain, save the deal.
Okay, if you tell me, jake,this is what I want your role to
be, I'm going to play that role.
(17:29):
But if you don't, I got to likeyou know, half the conflict you
create with having your boss onthe call is call is your fault,
right, whether it's your faultas a leader or your fault as a
rep.
Like it's your your job to tellthem.
And look, there are don't bewrong, there are bad managers
that were like they can't helpthemselves.
But you know, pro tip there,try to manage up like you can,
so you could.
Even so, this is like anexample of what a good custom
gpt looks like, where, again,like task one, you can literally
just like upload it.
(17:49):
And again, I'll just kind of youknow, kind of go through this,
like Clayton is the personthey're trying to meet with,
right, right?
So then this is like I'm goingto gather some things around
Clayton, here's our website, I'man AE and it's like great,
let's like jump into this stuffand again, like what you'll see
here is like hey, good to hearbusy, blah, blah, blah.
It'll try to mimic some ofthese natural language things
(18:12):
and I will tell you this toKatie's point, it won't really.
Chatgpt is purposely trained Ithink everybody needs to know
this to be very passive andaccepting.
And even when you tell it to belike more direct, it still will
never quite get to what a callis.
But again, you can start to seeit.
(18:34):
What it will do is it'll say,hey, for this type of company
that sells into this industry,for this type of persona, it's
going to start to pull out thoseKPIs or like the things that
the industry trends, what's topof mind, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
And so, again, it's and I'll touch on there real
quick Jake, yeah, do it.
And I don't know if this isgoing to rattle anybody or not,
but like, at its core y'all,like, until your reps can do an
easy call, the hard stuffdoesn't matter.
And what happens like for mostany org that's out there
struggling right now, reps thatare struggling for the most part
(19:09):
they're not handling the normalcalls well, let alone like the
more tough, challenging,whatever it's like.
Are they even running thenormal calls to the level that
you want them to?
It's making sure that thefoundation is so strong, right,
(19:30):
like, sometimes there's too manysports analogies, but it's like
look, you don't practice a 360dunk to get better at basketball
.
You get better at basketballthat can eventually pull it off.
You don't do multiple fingerscales when you're playing
guitar.
You're doing the basic onesfirst and then you can pull it
off.
That's the key to this y'all isthat 2AM test.
Your reps should be able to doa normal call.
Well, I don't worry, we have arule.
(19:53):
We don't go down the yeah, butfunnel when we're training or
coaching.
But yeah, but what if they askwhat we're going to do for the
left-handed, dyslexic people onthe team.
When we get that objection,we'll handle it.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Until you can handle the how much is this cost
question, nothing else matters,right?
So it's just getting thatrepetition.
I can't stress that enough.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
And again, I think what a lot of people hopefully
should think about what we'retalking about here, about
repetitions, is, you know, it isokay, and especially for a lot
of you, if you're a newer rep ormaybe you're someone who just
wants to get better at that likewrite down what you say.
You know, I think too often,katie, it's like they don't take
the time, like, okay, how doyou handle that?
And again, you've got maybeyour battle card or whatever.
(20:38):
Write it in your own languageand drill that thing and you can
.
Again, you can use chat GPT tojust go back and forth and back
and forth.
You can say, hey, always giveme an objection, always give me
at least one objection withevery response and that will
just train it more and more andmore.
And so for a vast majority ofyou who aren't using this to
role play, again, don't focus asmuch on can I get you at GPT to
(21:05):
be as aggressive as I want itto be.
You're not going to do thatright now.
It's just not going to be ableto simulate it.
But can it get somebody thesame at bats on this use case,
this objection, how we solve fortrends in an industry?
Yeah, it can do that now.
Speaker 2 (21:22):
This is what we were doing, if you saw it, when, jake
, you can upload something.
So what we've always done withour orgs, we call it TyWIC,
right?
This is what you know, and sowe would pre-build these, right?
So we would build a TyWik oflike, all right, what's the
skill we're working on, whatdoes good look like?
But then this is what you knowthe persona, the title, the
(21:44):
situation, like what you've saidbefore, this is actually what
we were uploading in for it todo.
The role play is we would buildthe scenario and the skill that
we're working on, then uploadthat doc and then go back and
forth with it, because it alsoincluded the what good looks
like.
But it was the idea of theTywick.
This is what you know, and thisis also what makes, I think,
the role playing better in GPTs.
(22:05):
It forces that, becauseotherwise, a lot of times,
managers are like all right,jake, so I'm going to be Bob at
Superbiz, let's go, that's right.
Like make it real, make itactually an account and
everything else.
So, Tywick, this is what youknow.
That's what feeds the role playsession even better.
Speaker 1 (22:22):
That's kind of how this works for a lot of you is
understand.
It's like there's this initialawakening, then you get
overwhelmed and then you're likethese are the two ways I'm
going to use it and so you don'thave to worry about do I know
everything about this.
And that's kind of our goal indoing this is to say, look,
here's a new way that now youcan add to your arsenal to get
up to speed.
(22:42):
So for all of you, yourhomework for today is to go look
at your.
Whether you're somebody who'sresponsible for setting meetings
, someone responsible forclosing deals, it could be that,
hey, what you need to do is youneed to work on your executive
presence.
Maybe you're somebody whostruggles in executives.
You can take this same idea andbe like, hey, I need to get
better at communicating withCFOs and I want you to be a very
(23:03):
jargony CFO of a fintechcompany with 200 people that is
very skeptical of almosteverything, and I want to
practice doing executive levelcommunication.
So the way that I either findmy, the way that I either find
on my phone, I can literallytalk to it, or I can type it in,
et cetera.
So you just think about that'syour homework.
(23:24):
Everyone is just think aboutwhat is something in your sales
process or setting meetings orworking with your current
accounts and just go focus onthat use case.
You know, dme, dmkd, if you'reinterested in learning more
about really any of this um kd,any final thoughts on this topic
?
Speaker 2 (23:42):
uh, or you know, if you were sitting in somebody's
shoes, what you would do next Idid both with my teams
internally, like dictation andtyping, and I actually came back
to typing and I'll share thereason why is I actually wanted
the manual nature of it?
Because my goal on this isretention and repetition.
Think about it, Think about it.
(24:02):
So when you have to think aboutit and type it out, yes it's
slower, but that's actuallyincreasing retention, which is
also the goal of a role play.
So don't err too far to make iteasier with voice.
I actually want it to be slowerbecause it forces them to think
(24:22):
and engage.
So it's actually powerful to doa written type role play, not
just the voice.
So just something I wanted tokind of leave people with.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
I love that man.
And again, it's just like youknow, if there's a book, I mean
just to kind of you know, doubledown on that.
If there's a book, I mean justto kind of you know, double down
on that.
If there's a book that I'm like, I really want to retain it.
I do both.
I get the audible version and Iget right.
I get the kindle version withthe audible and I find that it
just it helps out sodramatically as opposed to when
I just do audible.
I think a lot of people check alot of book boxes by doing
(24:52):
audible but you're multitaskingand you're not paying attention.
So I still default to theKindle version more often than
not, but I feel like the comboworks.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Novel.
Ravikant said it well it's likelistening to your books is like
drinking your vegetables.
That was his analogy.
Yeah, I like that, it is sothank you for tuning in.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
If you're on YouTube or listening if you're on the
podcast, make sure to subscribe.
Subscribe to the newsletter,some of the other things we've
got in the show notes, and we'llsee you on the next episode.
Hell yeah, Appreciate you All,right, man.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.