June 9, 2023 • 31 mins
What hidden truths can an artist's perspective reveal about our world? And how can beauty often emerge from the depths of brokenness? Join us as we dive into a captivating conversation with renowned artist Makoto Fujimura, delving into the significance of art in capturing the essence of who we are.
We also ponder the role of art in providing hope during bleak and uncertain times, drawing inspiration from artists like Frangelico, J.R.R. Tolkien, and C.S. Lewis who created masterpieces amid darkness. Makoto shares his insights on the concept of Kintsugi, a powerful reminder brokenness often proceeds beauty. Together, we examine how cultivating creativity and remaining fully present in the moment roots us to our true purpose. Don't miss this fascinating episode that will challenge your perceptions and uncover the deeper magic surrounding us in art and faith.
Topics:
- Art, faith, and the deeper magic
- Creating beauty in bleak times
- "What books have had an impact on you?”
- "What advice do you have for teenagers?"
Makoto Fujimura is a leading contemporary artist whose work has been featured in galleries and museums around the world, including The Museum of Contemporary Art in Tokyo, The Huntington Library in California, the Tikotin Museum in Israel, the Belvedere Museum in Vienna, and the C3M North Bund Art Museum in Shanghai, China. His process-driven, refractive “slow art” has been described by David Brooks of the New York Times as “a small rebellion against the quickening of time.” Fujimura is the author of 4 books, Refractions, Culture Care, Silence and Beauty, and Art+Faith: A Theology of Making. Fujimura is the recipient of the 2023 Kuyper Prize for Excellence in Reformed Theology and Public Life as well as the American Academy of Religion’s 2014 “Religion and the Arts” award. From 2003 to 2009, Fujimura served as a Presidential appointee to the National Council on the Arts. He has also received notable recognition as a speaker, with one address selected by NPR as among the 200 “Best Commencement Addresses Ever” and by CNN as one of the top 16 “Greatest commencement speeches of all time” and is a recipient of four Doctor of Arts Honorary Degrees from Belhaven University, Biola University, Cairn University, and Roanoke College.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Taylor Bledsoe (00:12):
We live in an empiricist world.
Reality is what we can measureand quantify, but, to quote CS
Lewis, there is a deeper magicstill.
Artists, through their art,help us perceive this magic.
But oftentimes beauty onlycomes from brokenness, and this
is the topic of my discussionwith artist Mako Fujimura.
Mr Fujimura is a leadingcontemporary artist whose work
(00:35):
has been featured in galleriesand museums around the world,
including the Museum ofContemporary Art in Tokyo, the
Huntington Library in California, the T-Cotine Museum in Israel,
the Belvedere Museum in Viennaand C.3 M North Bund Art Museum
in Shanghai, china.
His process-driven refractivequote slow art end quote has
(00:55):
been described by David Brooksof the New York Times as a quote
small rebellion against thequickening of time.
In quote Fujimura is the authorof four books Refractions,
culture, care, silence andBeauty, and Art plus Faith A
Theology of Making.
Fujimura is the recipient of a2023 Kuiper Prize for Excellence
in Reform, theology and PublicLife, as well as the American
(01:18):
Academy of Religions 2014Religion and Arts Award.
From 2003 to 2009, fujimuraserved as a presidential
appointee to the NationalCouncil on the Arts, and with
that I am Taylor Bledsoe, andthis is the Aiming for the Moon
podcast, where I interviewinteresting people from a
teenage perspective.
If you like what you hear today, please write the podcast and
subscribe.
(01:38):
You can follow us at Aiming theNumber Four Moon on all the
socials and check out thepodcast notes below for links to
our website and lessons fromInteresting People newsletter.
Alright, thanks to Paxton Pagefor the incredible new music And
with that, sit back, relax andlisten in.
Well, welcome Mr Fujimura tothe episode.
(02:14):
Thank you so much for coming on.
Makoto Fujimura (02:16):
Oh, it's great to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Taylor Bledsoe (02:18):
Wonderful.
Yeah, we kind of tend to thinkof our reality only through what
can be measured and what iskind of deemed practical.
And you talk a lot about inyour book Art Plus Faith, about
the perspective that an artistkind of gets on the world.
So I'm curious.
Could you describe this as youkind of introduce our audience
to how the artist sees the world, differently than a lot of
(02:38):
other normal people?
Makoto Fujimura (02:41):
Yeah, great question, taylor.
I do appreciate that questionbecause I think it's often not
asked or, you know, it's justassumed that the only way that
we can be successful, let's say,is to measure the bottom line,
or something that is evenutility driven and efficient.
(03:02):
And there's certainly somethingthat we appreciate about
efficiency and pragmatism andutility, but when it comes down
to what is really important tous, and even if we remember back
(03:24):
, even if you're a teenager, theexperiences that last a long
time, let's say, things that youremember are not necessarily
things, certainly the thingsthat you can't buy or sell.
They tend to be intangiblemoments when you have
(03:49):
experienced something beautifulwith your friends or with your
loved ones, or a time when youfelt alone and you were
struggling to understand why, ormusic that you heard, when your
heart felt full or empty.
(04:11):
Those things tend to besomething that art gets at very
well, and poetry.
What I mean by art is not justvisual paintings, but theater,
dance, poetry, music, all ofwhat we experience as human
(04:34):
beings, and so I couldn't tendto think that, in a society that
is driven by pragmatism andutility, the arts are even more
important, because we are unableto perhaps capture the essence
of who we are and the depth ofwho we want to be, and the art
(05:00):
expressions allow us to getdeeper into the essence of who
we are.
Taylor Bledsoe (05:06):
One of the things that's very interesting
is you have people who, so youhave this idea of metrifying the
world and personality, and thenyou also have this other side,
that we must be very authenticwith ourselves.
On social media, you don't wantto cover up your real self.
It's kind of interestingbecause it's an authentic self,
but it's an authentic self thatgets likes and shares and
(05:28):
everything else.
So, what do you think about theinfluencer culture?
Is that real art or is thatrelated to kind of metrifying
the world?
What do you think about that?
Makoto Fujimura (05:41):
Yeah, so technology is not bad.
Anything you can critique.
Even in social media, you canalso turn to be part of our
making, part of our way ofcommunicating.
So it's not necessarily themechanism, although you can
argue that if you only have 140words or 15 seconds of fame,
(06:05):
what does that do?
Well, that remains to be seen,and I think what we need to have
a long term perspective and tolook back on things that do last
.
And digital media tend to beless enduring because it's not
(06:28):
physical in the sense that art,music, any kind of experiential,
somatic experiences tend to be,so we have to take that into
account.
But anything is a tool tocreate into, and I do believe
(06:53):
that even in digital media, youcan create something more
enduring.
Certainly not, perhaps, in away that is being used today,
but I do believe in thepotential of technology to be
like a paintbrush.
I mean, brush is a tool, thebrush is technology, it's
(07:17):
technique, and so you have tohave an artist to use it well,
and the same thing witheverything that has been created
.
Taylor Bledsoe (07:28):
The other interesting thing is, of course,
as the title of your bookimplies, you're also a man of
faith, and specificallyChristianity, and I'm sure a lot
of our audience who aren'tChristians are wondering.
There's a stereotype ofChristians that's kind of
bombastic, vindictive,fundamentalist and sometimes
even uncaring, and obviouslyit's a very thoughtful and
intelligent and innovativeartist.
You don't really fall into thatmold, so I'm sure a lot of
(07:51):
people are wondering why are youa Christian?
Why do you associate with thatstereotype?
Makoto Fujimura (07:57):
That's a good question, and I certainly
struggle with culture, wars,mentality, not just because of
the polarization it brings, butbecause it's fundamentally not
true to our experience and whatwe long for.
(08:17):
And as a photo of Christ, ireally follow Jesus, who stood
on the hills of Palestine, dyinghills, claiming that what we
consider to be survival of thefittest, what we consider to be
(08:38):
scarce in the world, that Jesusis bringing in a point of view
that, despite facing scarcityand violence and trauma, you can
, you feel yourself with thegoodness of God.
That brings abundance and hope.
(08:58):
And I don't think history wouldbe history without that notion
injected into the very heart ofdarkness.
And so, to me, following Jesusmeans to first of all understand
that there's a historicalreality, a puncture in the
(09:19):
history of what we know to bethe only truth that embedded
something new And what I callnew newness a Greek word there
is Kainos but something that isso new that we don't have a word
yet for this paradigmaticnewness that shifted when Jesus
(09:44):
claimed to be who he was And hisresurrection from the dead,
which is the inconceivableimpossibility.
And that is what, later on,saint Paul writes, as in
Christ's new creation.
This new newness is far beyondwhat in new iPhone, no new
(10:09):
innovation, no new technologycan bring.
It's simply a paradigmaticshift, and my faith is that that
happened 2000 years ago in avery unique fashion that
culminated over 5,000 years ofhebraic history.
(10:32):
That culminated in that momentAnd we continue to understand
what that meant.
And to follow Christ is also tounderstand that we're not
certain about anything and thatthere's mystery involved.
But I have experienced in mylife certain signposts that,
(10:53):
including art, that points theway to this abundance beneath
the ashes of what we experience.
Taylor Bledsoe (11:04):
For those who have probably their only
experience of Christianity hasbeen this almost stereotype.
What were your?
what would your words be tothose people who maybe have
written it off as, oh you know,that's kind of a political thing
or something else.
Do you have any words of wisdomfor them?
Makoto Fujimura (11:21):
Yeah.
so first of all, we have toexamine what we deem to be
certainty And what we're suretoday.
you know, I always think it'sinteresting to look even five
years back and listen toourselves talk about what we're
so certain about and find outthat, you know, nobody expected
(11:45):
I guess COVID, some predicted it, but it wasn't anything that we
thought we will experience.
And here we are in, you know,2023, almost everybody alive
well, everybody alive has beenaffected by it.
right, and that kind of realityyou know where, if we think
(12:11):
anything is certain, we're wrong, you know.
So let's examine that.
And my certainty in faith isdifferent from certainty in
knowing what would happen.
My certainty in faith iscertainly a type of certainty
that comes from this realitythat is deposited, it's embedded
(12:37):
, before I can have faith.
In other words, it is notsomething that you know.
that's God exists.
Well, i can argue all day aboutyou know all these evidences,
but that's not the issue.
you know, if this God exists,god is outside of time and space
(12:58):
, so there's no way to know thatright, in imperial, materialist
fashion.
So we can argue all day aboutevidences, but at the end of the
day, it comes down toassumptions that we make about
certainty, and what I believethat Jesus's appearance points
(13:20):
to is that there is apossibility, and it could just
be a possibility for many of uswho struggle to believe is it?
can we accept, you know, let'ssay, 10% chance that a pure love
can exist in the universe, in akind of way that you know,
(13:45):
every song, every movie, everystory points to right?
There is this reality, that ofenduring, uncorrupted love that
can exist in the world.
If you doubtful that, you know,20%, 10%, 5%, can we live with
(14:07):
1%?
Can we live with 0.0001%?
Right?
And if the answer is yes, evenif it's minute possibility of
0.001%, that this pure love canexist, isn't it worth it to
pursue that with all of our mind, heart and soul?
(14:30):
And wouldn't, at the end of ourlives, we don't find it?
that's it.
The pursuit of that in itself isan adventure worth taking right
To have faith in this 0.001%.
And so that is what I encourageyoung people, inquiring young
(14:56):
people, and I challenge actuallyChristians who grew up in a
church or who have come tobelieve in reality of Jesus that
you know, even though you maythink that your faith is certain
, it doesn't mean that you knowGod right, because faith depends
(15:21):
on not knowing.
So that means that we can learna lot from healthy and vigorous
inquiries into you know, thisjourney into the impossibility,
and be honest with ourselvesabout what we don't know and
what we want to discovertogether.
(15:43):
right, and so it's a journeycollectively for all of us, and
I have experienced that some ofmy atheist artist friends who
are very honest about theirconvictions, are more helpful
sometimes than speaking tobrothers and sisters in the
church, because they ask hardquestions that are essential for
(16:07):
understanding my own faith.
Taylor Bledsoe (16:10):
The other thing that I think a lot of people
kind of forget about is, if youdo believe in God, that you
shouldn't be worried about someof the questions that do come,
because, let's say, you do get afew really hard questions.
If what you believe is true,then that's you will.
maybe not you in particular,but there is an answer to those
questions that can reconcile.
Makoto Fujimura (16:30):
That's right And that's right.
The faith moves certainty fromour perspective to God's
perspective.
That's the beauty of it is thatwe don't have to be right And
we can be wrong, and we havefaith that whatever we believe
in that is not proven wrong bythat.
(16:52):
That's why, when we followJesus, we can be free from
trying to justify ourselves andbe able to serve others freely,
because we don't have to workall day to try to understand how
(17:14):
right we are.
And, of course, unfortunately,the way that Christian faith has
been seen in recent times hasbeen the opposite of that, and
that is completely something.
Absolutely I struggle with thatthat my friends who I thought
(17:36):
had a deeper faith orconvictions that move beyond the
temporal, would fall into thesemany things.
That seems to me likeconspiracy theories and so forth
, but at the same time I alsohave faith that I don't have to
(17:58):
prove them wrong because thecertainty of this God as a
foundation.
Nothing changes that.
Taylor Bledsoe (18:08):
The beautiful part about believing in God is
that your faith isn't dependenton you.
Makoto Fujimura (18:13):
Isn't that amazing?
Taylor Bledsoe (18:14):
Yes, one of the other aspects of your work is
you deal a lot with destructionand decay and how we can rise up
from the ashes if you discussedtrauma in your particular story
, and then you talk a lot aboutKintsugi and the Japanese art of
repairing broken pottery withgold.
And what's very interesting tome is, i mean, i think my
generation is one of the I guess, the earliest generation at
(18:37):
this point, the latestgeneration, whatever you wanna
say And a lot of my peers and Ihave this perspective that well,
the world seems to be, if ithasn't already, if it's not on
fire, it's about to be on fire,and so we have this idea of kind
of an already broken anddestroyed world, and a lot of my
friends and even I sometimes wehad this idea of well, i as
(18:58):
well, use it while it lasts.
And I was curious, being anartist that works with kind of
broken material and fixing itand how that kind of renews,
that renewal process.
Should we take any of thatperspective and focus it on the
world as young people going intothis?
maybe broken, yeah.
Makoto Fujimura (19:15):
Yeah, and that kind of thinking, which is
hedonism.
You know, the world is notgoing to last, so let's have all
the fun we can.
It's not new, it existed sincebefore we have history, i think.
(19:36):
But it's very interesting thatin history, in history, even
though there were issues clearlytelling people that the world
is about to end, that there werevoices that is absolutely
(20:01):
enduring that came out of thattime, including artists, artists
like Frangelico, who paintedduring the Black plague, right,
one third or even one half ofhis population, flourishing
Florence is perishing.
How could this Dominican monk,while he served those people,
(20:22):
paint images that you can go tothe Metropolitan Museum and see?
and they are weighty, heavy,beautiful, golden images of hope
?
How could writers like JDSalinger, in the same way, or
(20:43):
anybody else, or Emily Dickinson, right When the world was
falling apart in front of them,right, jr Tolkien and CS Lewis,
they both experienced the traumaof war.
Ts Eddy, it was difficult toexplain the fact that first,
shakespeare failed to Peace thefirst time, sleep because of
that.
So he wrote poems in order tohear again the words of not just
(21:08):
comfort but destruction and toturn them into poetry.
So the world is filled withthese examples.
Shakespeare wrote during theBlack Flag, right when he wasn't
allowed to put theatre together, so he put the theatre on the
other side of the river.
(21:29):
But these examples tell us thatwhat we're experiencing, first
of all, is not unique to ourtime And, second of all, i think
your generation has immensepossibility because of what
you're going through, becauseyou don't take anything for
(21:52):
granted, so your faith can beabout despite what you are
seeing and experiencing, andthat can mean something, that is
, you know that there is an echo, that is, you are able to
(22:13):
resonate with those who havegone before you.
You know way before you know.
So you know 1500s and 1400s andway beyond, in the early church
years, where people are notquite sure what is going to
(22:34):
happen.
In fact, they were pretty surethat the world was ending.
What kind of hope, what kind offaith did they promote and do
they talk about?
These are things that I thinkyour generation can very much be
close to and attentive to,because you're experiencing the
(23:00):
same.
Taylor Bledsoe (23:02):
Yeah, there's something about creating in the
destroyed places that it's justthe beauty of the art that comes
out of.
This is incredible and it'sincredibly immense.
I'm sure people are wonderinglike of course you have
Shakespeare and you have TSEliot, ts Lewis, and they
created masterpieces.
But what is the point of eventrying to create if the world
(23:22):
feels like it's about to end?
Of course you could createsomething beautiful, but if it's
going to end, well, there yougo, right, and who's going to
read it?
Makoto Fujimura (23:32):
Who's going to see it?
Well, when it comes down to it,art poetry anything we create
is not transactional.
It doesn't.
You know, just because I don'thave an audience to create to,
or I knew that the world wasending tomorrow, it doesn't mean
(23:53):
that I don't create, because ifI'm true to myself and if I'm
true to my creativity andimagination, i am creating out
of love, right?
And I believe I haven'tbelieved that love is eternal,
it's not temporal, and I don'town it.
So I am doubly charged to saythat if my painting, if I'm
(24:18):
working here in the studio, andif I knew that the world was
ending today, that would beexactly what I want to be doing,
because it comes out of my love.
I have cultivated this lovethrough my hands into these
surfaces, and that is theexpression that I believe is a
portal into the new creationanyways.
(24:42):
So what we should do is befaithful in whatever the ways we
can, and to create a communalway where we can encourage each
other to remain faithful to whatwe have been called to do,
which is to create into thefuture.
(25:02):
No human being has eversurvived if that person is not
creating into the future.
There's some hope right thatallows us to get up in the
morning, to go to study, go towork, and so that means it's not
(25:26):
just about now, it's about allof humanity.
Right, have to answer thatquestion, and some place along
the way people have said yes,this is worth doing, despite
what we see, despite what we'veexperienced, despite what we
think is going to happen, andwe're going to create something
(25:50):
that is utmost our capacity tomake create excellence, because
we care about it.
If you love something, you careabout that And you want for that
, whatever you make, to besomething that can be shared, so
(26:10):
that impulse doesn't change.
And I think in a bleak time, webenefit by this unique
sanctification or this processof being refined by the fire
purified That allows us to lockin on something that only I can
(26:42):
do, only you can do, into theworld.
God has created each of us veryuniquely And therefore, what we
can make, if we can understandour limitations and understand
that we are unique in that sense, then not trying to prove
yourself to the world but beingfaithful to you, what you are
(27:06):
made to do, then that becomesessentially the language of hope
that will be passed on to thenext generation.
Taylor Bledsoe (27:16):
In Kintsugi, you can only add the gold after the
pot has been broken which isvery interesting So we have to
wrap up now because we'rerunning out of time, But the
last two questions I have.
The first one is what bookshave had an impact on you.
Makoto Fujimura (27:32):
So I have referred to The Oroja NT
Wright's book Surprised by Hope,which I recommend highly, and
another book I have beenrecommending to people
especially younger generation isa book by a philosopher, esther
(27:54):
Meek M-E-E-K, and it's a littlebook called A Little Manual on
Knowing, and I recommend that toanybody, whether Christian or
not, going into universities orany effort to learn anything you
know, because it's about how weknow what we know, and
(28:20):
technical term is epistemology,but how we know what we know is
essential in understanding howwe learn and how we can grow in
learning.
Taylor Bledsoe (28:33):
And then our last question is what advice do
you have for teenagers?
Makoto Fujimura (28:37):
Yeah Well, I have advice for teenagers as
anybody who is trying to create,faced with scarcity, mindset
and model and you know, groundzero ashes in front of us to
(29:01):
persevere in being present in,In whatever the circumstances
you find yourself, in beingpresent with people, certainly
with your friends and family,but being present even in pain
and isolation.
(29:21):
And being present also enjoysand triumphs that you experience
.
And that takes a discipline,You know.
We think well, we go after agoal and we can accomplish that
and we think that's for fitting.
It is in that sense.
But many successful people tellme, especially artist types,
(29:43):
when they found that pinnaclesuccess, it didn't provide the
satisfaction to them And I thinkthat's being amplified by
social media today that yourimmediate success, let's say, of
(30:04):
getting followers to listen tothis podcast.
Well, you have a goal and that'sa worthy thing, to be ambitious
and to challenge yourself toget there.
But being present in success isactually harder than learning
to be present in failures,because we have so many voices
(30:27):
thrown at us right And we kindof are trying to accommodate
because we became successful orwhatever.
We have a responsibility And Ifound that that is true of a
teenager as much as it is foranybody who's attaining some
(30:49):
success, And it's very importantto understand that we are,
first of all, created to becreative and we have been given
a unique pinhole of creativityto live into and to exercise our
imagination, to create thatwhich we have been called to do,
(31:11):
which actually creates thefuture, And all of us need that
and we can rejoice in that.
But let's be accountable.
Let's be accountable to beingfully present in those moments.
Taylor Bledsoe (31:25):
Well, thank you so much, Mr Fujimura, for coming
on the podcast.
I really enjoyed ourconversation.
Makoto Fujimura (31:31):
Same here, thank you.
We live in an empiricist world.
Reality is what we can measureand quantify, but, to quote CS
Lewis, there is a deeper magicstill.
Artists, through their art,help us perceive this magic.
But oftentimes beauty onlycomes from brokenness, and this
is the topic of my discussionwith artist Mako Fujimura.
Mr Fujimura is a leadingcontemporary artist whose work
(00:35):
has been featured in galleriesand museums around the world,
including the Museum ofContemporary Art in Tokyo, the
Huntington Library in California, the T-Cotine Museum in Israel,
the Belvedere Museum in Viennaand C.3 M North Bund Art Museum
in Shanghai, china.
His process-driven refractivequote slow art end quote has
(00:55):
been described by David Brooksof the New York Times as a quote
small rebellion against thequickening of time.
In quote Fujimura is the authorof four books Refractions,
culture, care, silence andBeauty, and Art plus Faith A
Theology of Making.
Fujimura is the recipient of a2023 Kuiper Prize for Excellence
in Reform, theology and PublicLife, as well as the American
(01:18):
Academy of Religions 2014Religion and Arts Award.
From 2003 to 2009, fujimuraserved as a presidential
appointee to the NationalCouncil on the Arts, and with
that I am Taylor Bledsoe, andthis is the Aiming for the Moon
podcast, where I interviewinteresting people from a
teenage perspective.
If you like what you hear today, please write the podcast and
subscribe.
(01:38):
You can follow us at Aiming theNumber Four Moon on all the
socials and check out thepodcast notes below for links to
our website and lessons fromInteresting People newsletter.
Alright, thanks to Paxton Pagefor the incredible new music And
with that, sit back, relax andlisten in.
Well, welcome Mr Fujimura tothe episode.
(02:14):
Thank you so much for coming on.
Makoto Fujimura (02:16):
Oh, it's great to be here.
Thanks for having me.
Taylor Bledsoe (02:18):
Wonderful.
Yeah, we kind of tend to thinkof our reality only through what
can be measured and what iskind of deemed practical.
And you talk a lot about inyour book Art Plus Faith, about
the perspective that an artistkind of gets on the world.
So I'm curious.
Could you describe this as youkind of introduce our audience
to how the artist sees the world, differently than a lot of
(02:38):
other normal people?
Makoto Fujimura (02:41):
Yeah, great question, taylor.
I do appreciate that questionbecause I think it's often not
asked or, you know, it's justassumed that the only way that
we can be successful, let's say,is to measure the bottom line,
or something that is evenutility driven and efficient.
(03:02):
And there's certainly somethingthat we appreciate about
efficiency and pragmatism andutility, but when it comes down
to what is really important tous, and even if we remember back
(03:24):
, even if you're a teenager, theexperiences that last a long
time, let's say, things that youremember are not necessarily
things, certainly the thingsthat you can't buy or sell.
They tend to be intangiblemoments when you have
(03:49):
experienced something beautifulwith your friends or with your
loved ones, or a time when youfelt alone and you were
struggling to understand why, ormusic that you heard, when your
heart felt full or empty.
(04:11):
Those things tend to besomething that art gets at very
well, and poetry.
What I mean by art is not justvisual paintings, but theater,
dance, poetry, music, all ofwhat we experience as human
(04:34):
beings, and so I couldn't tendto think that, in a society that
is driven by pragmatism andutility, the arts are even more
important, because we are unableto perhaps capture the essence
of who we are and the depth ofwho we want to be, and the art
(05:00):
expressions allow us to getdeeper into the essence of who
we are.
Taylor Bledsoe (05:06):
One of the things that's very interesting
is you have people who, so youhave this idea of metrifying the
world and personality, and thenyou also have this other side,
that we must be very authenticwith ourselves.
On social media, you don't wantto cover up your real self.
It's kind of interestingbecause it's an authentic self,
but it's an authentic self thatgets likes and shares and
(05:28):
everything else.
So, what do you think about theinfluencer culture?
Is that real art or is thatrelated to kind of metrifying
the world?
What do you think about that?
Makoto Fujimura (05:41):
Yeah, so technology is not bad.
Anything you can critique.
Even in social media, you canalso turn to be part of our
making, part of our way ofcommunicating.
So it's not necessarily themechanism, although you can
argue that if you only have 140words or 15 seconds of fame,
(06:05):
what does that do?
Well, that remains to be seen,and I think what we need to have
a long term perspective and tolook back on things that do last
.
And digital media tend to beless enduring because it's not
(06:28):
physical in the sense that art,music, any kind of experiential,
somatic experiences tend to be,so we have to take that into
account.
But anything is a tool tocreate into, and I do believe
(06:53):
that even in digital media, youcan create something more
enduring.
Certainly not, perhaps, in away that is being used today,
but I do believe in thepotential of technology to be
like a paintbrush.
I mean, brush is a tool, thebrush is technology, it's
(07:17):
technique, and so you have tohave an artist to use it well,
and the same thing witheverything that has been created
.
Taylor Bledsoe (07:28):
The other interesting thing is, of course,
as the title of your bookimplies, you're also a man of
faith, and specificallyChristianity, and I'm sure a lot
of our audience who aren'tChristians are wondering.
There's a stereotype ofChristians that's kind of
bombastic, vindictive,fundamentalist and sometimes
even uncaring, and obviouslyit's a very thoughtful and
intelligent and innovativeartist.
You don't really fall into thatmold, so I'm sure a lot of
(07:51):
people are wondering why are youa Christian?
Why do you associate with thatstereotype?
Makoto Fujimura (07:57):
That's a good question, and I certainly
struggle with culture, wars,mentality, not just because of
the polarization it brings, butbecause it's fundamentally not
true to our experience and whatwe long for.
(08:17):
And as a photo of Christ, ireally follow Jesus, who stood
on the hills of Palestine, dyinghills, claiming that what we
consider to be survival of thefittest, what we consider to be
(08:38):
scarce in the world, that Jesusis bringing in a point of view
that, despite facing scarcityand violence and trauma, you can
, you feel yourself with thegoodness of God.
That brings abundance and hope.
(08:58):
And I don't think history wouldbe history without that notion
injected into the very heart ofdarkness.
And so, to me, following Jesusmeans to first of all understand
that there's a historicalreality, a puncture in the
(09:19):
history of what we know to bethe only truth that embedded
something new And what I callnew newness a Greek word there
is Kainos but something that isso new that we don't have a word
yet for this paradigmaticnewness that shifted when Jesus
(09:44):
claimed to be who he was And hisresurrection from the dead,
which is the inconceivableimpossibility.
And that is what, later on,saint Paul writes, as in
Christ's new creation.
This new newness is far beyondwhat in new iPhone, no new
(10:09):
innovation, no new technologycan bring.
It's simply a paradigmaticshift, and my faith is that that
happened 2000 years ago in avery unique fashion that
culminated over 5,000 years ofhebraic history.
(10:32):
That culminated in that momentAnd we continue to understand
what that meant.
And to follow Christ is also tounderstand that we're not
certain about anything and thatthere's mystery involved.
But I have experienced in mylife certain signposts that,
(10:53):
including art, that points theway to this abundance beneath
the ashes of what we experience.
Taylor Bledsoe (11:04):
For those who have probably their only
experience of Christianity hasbeen this almost stereotype.
What were your?
what would your words be tothose people who maybe have
written it off as, oh you know,that's kind of a political thing
or something else.
Do you have any words of wisdomfor them?
Makoto Fujimura (11:21):
Yeah.
so first of all, we have toexamine what we deem to be
certainty And what we're suretoday.
you know, I always think it'sinteresting to look even five
years back and listen toourselves talk about what we're
so certain about and find outthat, you know, nobody expected
(11:45):
I guess COVID, some predicted it, but it wasn't anything that we
thought we will experience.
And here we are in, you know,2023, almost everybody alive
well, everybody alive has beenaffected by it.
right, and that kind of realityyou know where, if we think
(12:11):
anything is certain, we're wrong, you know.
So let's examine that.
And my certainty in faith isdifferent from certainty in
knowing what would happen.
My certainty in faith iscertainly a type of certainty
that comes from this realitythat is deposited, it's embedded
(12:37):
, before I can have faith.
In other words, it is notsomething that you know.
that's God exists.
Well, i can argue all day aboutyou know all these evidences,
but that's not the issue.
you know, if this God exists,god is outside of time and space
(12:58):
, so there's no way to know thatright, in imperial, materialist
fashion.
So we can argue all day aboutevidences, but at the end of the
day, it comes down toassumptions that we make about
certainty, and what I believethat Jesus's appearance points
(13:20):
to is that there is apossibility, and it could just
be a possibility for many of uswho struggle to believe is it?
can we accept, you know, let'ssay, 10% chance that a pure love
can exist in the universe, in akind of way that you know,
(13:45):
every song, every movie, everystory points to right?
There is this reality, that ofenduring, uncorrupted love that
can exist in the world.
If you doubtful that, you know,20%, 10%, 5%, can we live with
(14:07):
1%?
Can we live with 0.0001%?
Right?
And if the answer is yes, evenif it's minute possibility of
0.001%, that this pure love canexist, isn't it worth it to
pursue that with all of our mind, heart and soul?
(14:30):
And wouldn't, at the end of ourlives, we don't find it?
that's it.
The pursuit of that in itself isan adventure worth taking right
To have faith in this 0.001%.
And so that is what I encourageyoung people, inquiring young
(14:56):
people, and I challenge actuallyChristians who grew up in a
church or who have come tobelieve in reality of Jesus that
you know, even though you maythink that your faith is certain
, it doesn't mean that you knowGod right, because faith depends
(15:21):
on not knowing.
So that means that we can learna lot from healthy and vigorous
inquiries into you know, thisjourney into the impossibility,
and be honest with ourselvesabout what we don't know and
what we want to discovertogether.
(15:43):
right, and so it's a journeycollectively for all of us, and
I have experienced that some ofmy atheist artist friends who
are very honest about theirconvictions, are more helpful
sometimes than speaking tobrothers and sisters in the
church, because they ask hardquestions that are essential for
(16:07):
understanding my own faith.
Taylor Bledsoe (16:10):
The other thing that I think a lot of people
kind of forget about is, if youdo believe in God, that you
shouldn't be worried about someof the questions that do come,
because, let's say, you do get afew really hard questions.
If what you believe is true,then that's you will.
maybe not you in particular,but there is an answer to those
questions that can reconcile.
Makoto Fujimura (16:30):
That's right And that's right.
The faith moves certainty fromour perspective to God's
perspective.
That's the beauty of it is thatwe don't have to be right And
we can be wrong, and we havefaith that whatever we believe
in that is not proven wrong bythat.
(16:52):
That's why, when we followJesus, we can be free from
trying to justify ourselves andbe able to serve others freely,
because we don't have to workall day to try to understand how
(17:14):
right we are.
And, of course, unfortunately,the way that Christian faith has
been seen in recent times hasbeen the opposite of that, and
that is completely something.
Absolutely I struggle with thatthat my friends who I thought
(17:36):
had a deeper faith orconvictions that move beyond the
temporal, would fall into thesemany things.
That seems to me likeconspiracy theories and so forth
, but at the same time I alsohave faith that I don't have to
(17:58):
prove them wrong because thecertainty of this God as a
foundation.
Nothing changes that.
Taylor Bledsoe (18:08):
The beautiful part about believing in God is
that your faith isn't dependenton you.
Makoto Fujimura (18:13):
Isn't that amazing?
Taylor Bledsoe (18:14):
Yes, one of the other aspects of your work is
you deal a lot with destructionand decay and how we can rise up
from the ashes if you discussedtrauma in your particular story
, and then you talk a lot aboutKintsugi and the Japanese art of
repairing broken pottery withgold.
And what's very interesting tome is, i mean, i think my
generation is one of the I guess, the earliest generation at
(18:37):
this point, the latestgeneration, whatever you wanna
say And a lot of my peers and Ihave this perspective that well,
the world seems to be, if ithasn't already, if it's not on
fire, it's about to be on fire,and so we have this idea of kind
of an already broken anddestroyed world, and a lot of my
friends and even I sometimes wehad this idea of well, i as
(18:58):
well, use it while it lasts.
And I was curious, being anartist that works with kind of
broken material and fixing itand how that kind of renews,
that renewal process.
Should we take any of thatperspective and focus it on the
world as young people going intothis?
maybe broken, yeah.
Makoto Fujimura (19:15):
Yeah, and that kind of thinking, which is
hedonism.
You know, the world is notgoing to last, so let's have all
the fun we can.
It's not new, it existed sincebefore we have history, i think.
(19:36):
But it's very interesting thatin history, in history, even
though there were issues clearlytelling people that the world
is about to end, that there werevoices that is absolutely
(20:01):
enduring that came out of thattime, including artists, artists
like Frangelico, who paintedduring the Black plague, right,
one third or even one half ofhis population, flourishing
Florence is perishing.
How could this Dominican monk,while he served those people,
(20:22):
paint images that you can go tothe Metropolitan Museum and see?
and they are weighty, heavy,beautiful, golden images of hope
?
How could writers like JDSalinger, in the same way, or
(20:43):
anybody else, or Emily Dickinson, right When the world was
falling apart in front of them,right, jr Tolkien and CS Lewis,
they both experienced the traumaof war.
Ts Eddy, it was difficult toexplain the fact that first,
shakespeare failed to Peace thefirst time, sleep because of
that.
So he wrote poems in order tohear again the words of not just
(21:08):
comfort but destruction and toturn them into poetry.
So the world is filled withthese examples.
Shakespeare wrote during theBlack Flag, right when he wasn't
allowed to put theatre together, so he put the theatre on the
other side of the river.
(21:29):
But these examples tell us thatwhat we're experiencing, first
of all, is not unique to ourtime And, second of all, i think
your generation has immensepossibility because of what
you're going through, becauseyou don't take anything for
(21:52):
granted, so your faith can beabout despite what you are
seeing and experiencing, andthat can mean something, that is
, you know that there is an echo, that is, you are able to
(22:13):
resonate with those who havegone before you.
You know way before you know.
So you know 1500s and 1400s andway beyond, in the early church
years, where people are notquite sure what is going to
(22:34):
happen.
In fact, they were pretty surethat the world was ending.
What kind of hope, what kind offaith did they promote and do
they talk about?
These are things that I thinkyour generation can very much be
close to and attentive to,because you're experiencing the
(23:00):
same.
Taylor Bledsoe (23:02):
Yeah, there's something about creating in the
destroyed places that it's justthe beauty of the art that comes
out of.
This is incredible and it'sincredibly immense.
I'm sure people are wonderinglike of course you have
Shakespeare and you have TSEliot, ts Lewis, and they
created masterpieces.
But what is the point of eventrying to create if the world
(23:22):
feels like it's about to end?
Of course you could createsomething beautiful, but if it's
going to end, well, there yougo, right, and who's going to
read it?
Makoto Fujimura (23:32):
Who's going to see it?
Well, when it comes down to it,art poetry anything we create
is not transactional.
It doesn't.
You know, just because I don'thave an audience to create to,
or I knew that the world wasending tomorrow, it doesn't mean
(23:53):
that I don't create, because ifI'm true to myself and if I'm
true to my creativity andimagination, i am creating out
of love, right?
And I believe I haven'tbelieved that love is eternal,
it's not temporal, and I don'town it.
So I am doubly charged to saythat if my painting, if I'm
(24:18):
working here in the studio, andif I knew that the world was
ending today, that would beexactly what I want to be doing,
because it comes out of my love.
I have cultivated this lovethrough my hands into these
surfaces, and that is theexpression that I believe is a
portal into the new creationanyways.
(24:42):
So what we should do is befaithful in whatever the ways we
can, and to create a communalway where we can encourage each
other to remain faithful to whatwe have been called to do,
which is to create into thefuture.
(25:02):
No human being has eversurvived if that person is not
creating into the future.
There's some hope right thatallows us to get up in the
morning, to go to study, go towork, and so that means it's not
(25:26):
just about now, it's about allof humanity.
Right, have to answer thatquestion, and some place along
the way people have said yes,this is worth doing, despite
what we see, despite what we'veexperienced, despite what we
think is going to happen, andwe're going to create something
(25:50):
that is utmost our capacity tomake create excellence, because
we care about it.
If you love something, you careabout that And you want for that
, whatever you make, to besomething that can be shared, so
(26:10):
that impulse doesn't change.
And I think in a bleak time, webenefit by this unique
sanctification or this processof being refined by the fire
purified That allows us to lockin on something that only I can
(26:42):
do, only you can do, into theworld.
God has created each of us veryuniquely And therefore, what we
can make, if we can understandour limitations and understand
that we are unique in that sense, then not trying to prove
yourself to the world but beingfaithful to you, what you are
(27:06):
made to do, then that becomesessentially the language of hope
that will be passed on to thenext generation.
Taylor Bledsoe (27:16):
In Kintsugi, you can only add the gold after the
pot has been broken which isvery interesting So we have to
wrap up now because we'rerunning out of time, But the
last two questions I have.
The first one is what bookshave had an impact on you.
Makoto Fujimura (27:32):
So I have referred to The Oroja NT
Wright's book Surprised by Hope,which I recommend highly, and
another book I have beenrecommending to people
especially younger generation isa book by a philosopher, esther
(27:54):
Meek M-E-E-K, and it's a littlebook called A Little Manual on
Knowing, and I recommend that toanybody, whether Christian or
not, going into universities orany effort to learn anything you
know, because it's about how weknow what we know, and
(28:20):
technical term is epistemology,but how we know what we know is
essential in understanding howwe learn and how we can grow in
learning.
Taylor Bledsoe (28:33):
And then our last question is what advice do
you have for teenagers?
Makoto Fujimura (28:37):
Yeah Well, I have advice for teenagers as
anybody who is trying to create,faced with scarcity, mindset
and model and you know, groundzero ashes in front of us to
(29:01):
persevere in being present in,In whatever the circumstances
you find yourself, in beingpresent with people, certainly
with your friends and family,but being present even in pain
and isolation.
(29:21):
And being present also enjoysand triumphs that you experience
.
And that takes a discipline,You know.
We think well, we go after agoal and we can accomplish that
and we think that's for fitting.
It is in that sense.
But many successful people tellme, especially artist types,
(29:43):
when they found that pinnaclesuccess, it didn't provide the
satisfaction to them And I thinkthat's being amplified by
social media today that yourimmediate success, let's say, of
(30:04):
getting followers to listen tothis podcast.
Well, you have a goal and that'sa worthy thing, to be ambitious
and to challenge yourself toget there.
But being present in success isactually harder than learning
to be present in failures,because we have so many voices
(30:27):
thrown at us right And we kindof are trying to accommodate
because we became successful orwhatever.
We have a responsibility And Ifound that that is true of a
teenager as much as it is foranybody who's attaining some
(30:49):
success, And it's very importantto understand that we are,
first of all, created to becreative and we have been given
a unique pinhole of creativityto live into and to exercise our
imagination, to create thatwhich we have been called to do,
(31:11):
which actually creates thefuture, And all of us need that
and we can rejoice in that.
But let's be accountable.
Let's be accountable to beingfully present in those moments.
Taylor Bledsoe (31:25):
Well, thank you so much, Mr Fujimura, for coming
on the podcast.
I really enjoyed ourconversation.
Makoto Fujimura (31:31):
Same here, thank you.
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