November 7, 2024 ā¢ 66 mins
Could the entities we've long deemed as demons be extraterrestrial guides misunderstood by ancient civilizations? On this episode of Alien Talk Podcast, we confront this provocative question head-on by unraveling the historical tapestry that ties together the UFO phenomena with ancient mythologies. Are the enigmatic roles of demons within religious contexts truly part of spiritual warfare or are they the psychologically symbols of past extraterrestrial encounters embedded within the collective human unconsciousness.
Journey with us as we explore the spiritual traditions of casting demons through exorcism to warding off the seductive powers of the incubus and succubus, to the identity of evil spirits with the Watchers of the Biblical narrative. By weaving together legends of jinn and cryptids and monsters, we propose that entities like the Alien Greys may just be modern-day reinterpretations of ancient fears, or perhaps, ancient truths.
The lines between religious dogma and extraterrestrial theories blur as we dissect the mythology of ancient deities and demigods. From the apocryphal lore of King Solomon's command over demons to the mysterious legends of Navajo Skinwalkers, we venture into a world where folklore and close encounters intertwine. We invite you to engage with us in our ongoing conversation about parallel aspects of stories about demons, with stories about aliens. Keep your curiosity alive and stay tuned as we dive into these thought-provoking realms.
"Space Journey" by Geoff Harvey
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joe (00:02):
Hello everybody, thank you for joining us on Alien Talk
Podcast.
This is the show where wediscuss all things about aliens
and UFOs and, as always, wherewe push the limits of our
understanding.
Joe Landry and oy Opert hereonce again to seek out the truth
and find the facts pertainingto the highly discussed issues
about extraterrestrial life andthe existence of UFOs.
(00:22):
So we have a great topic to getinto with you.
First off, lori and I went tothe UAP Disclosure Conference
this past Sunday evening, whichwas hosted by the Rialto Theater
in Tucson, arizona.
The presenting speaker was LuisElizondo, who most of you know
(00:44):
from his appearances on TV showslike Ancient Aliens, the UFO
Files and the Unexplained.
He is a former program managerwith the Department of Defense,
former military, as well as aspecial agent for
counterintelligence whose topresponsibilities were the
investigation of unidentifiedanomalous phenomena.
(01:06):
That is part of the PentagonUAP Task Force, which is now
under the name AOIMSG.
It was quite an event.
He's an excellent speaker whois very well informed as a
subject matter expert.
Laurie (01:21):
Yeah, it was, and we'll go over some of the highlights
that we took from it and presentit to you guys in a future
episode, and he gave out quite abit of info, but before I
comment further on this, I justwant everyone to know that I
just got back from Canada andwas advised that listeners up
there are unable to locate ournovel battle planet ad A.
(01:44):
D.
Relic of the Gods on Amazon.
ca, and I was able to locate itby clicking on our names or by
searching our author's names onAmazon.
So all you got to do is searchfor Joseph Landry or L.
Sheldon Oldford and our books,including our novel.
They should pop up, they shouldappear.
Books, including our novel,they should pop up, they should
(02:07):
appear, and I assume that anyoneelse, from whichever country
you're listening from, will haveto be.
You would have to do it thesame way.
So please let us know if thisworks and thank you in advance
for purchasing the books.
So back to the topic.
One of the things that hasalways impressed me about Luis
Elizondo is his thoroughknowledge about how these
(02:28):
government programs are handledand how they are managed by some
of our officials, and he has avery pragmatic and efficient
approach to the way heinvestigates UFO cases.
Investigates UFO cases.
Joe (02:42):
Yeah, I think he referred to himself as a nuts and bolts
kind of guy when it comes toUAPs and the disclosure and just
the overall discussion of whatthey are.
So definitely more to come onthat a little later.
He's certainly a veryknowledgeable about some of the
covert and inner workings of ourmilitary and Department of
(03:03):
Defense and I think he had a bigpart in the program when it was
called AARO.
I think it's changed to AOIMSGnow, but it was called AARO
before that.
This is the UAP Task Force,aero being All Domain Anomaly
Resolution Office.
He did refer to that in hispresentation.
It was very interesting tolisten to.
(03:23):
I'm glad we got to go hear himspeak.
So, yeah, we'd like to talkmore about that at a later time
in one of our future episodes,most likely the next one.
We'd like to maybe knock thatout in December.
So tonight our show is calledAlien Demons, so as to
correspond to the name of thesecond show that we did right
(03:46):
here on Alien Talk Podcastdebuted three and a half years
ago, that one being Alien Angels.
So, in a similar manner and howwe talked about the nature and
identity of angels as we find inreligion and mythology, we're
going to examine the nature andidentity of demons to find if
there is a connection to theancient alien narrative.
Laurie (04:09):
Yeah, so it's going to get exciting.
So if you are hanging out withfriends or whatnot, get your
coffees ready, your glass ofwhiskey, whatever your favorite
drink, sit back, relax andhopefully you enjoy this
discussion.
But we've all heard of demonsand almost all of us have a very
negative association with themeaning of the word, and when
(04:33):
something or someone is said tobe demonic or possessed by
demons, it conveys the idea thatthey or it is pure evil or at
least controlled by forces ofpure evil.
There's nothing good that comesfrom demons or anything that's
demonic, and in the minds of thepeople most people that would,
(04:54):
of course, you know the headdemon would be the devil.
Joe (04:59):
Yeah, so the word comes from the Greek daemon to mean
divine spirit.
The word comes from the Greekdaemon to mean divine spirit,
and in the Greco-Roman mythologyit did not necessarily mean
something malevolent.
At least in and of itself itcarried a connotation of being
something that is, a guide ofthe conscious that could instill
virtue, as Plato had said aboutSocrates and also about vice.
(05:23):
Generally, good people have hadgood demons at their sides, bad
people had bad ones, makessense.
We kind of make the samereferences even to this in this
day and age, about things likespiritual warfare and spirit
guides, about how people arepossessed by either the spirit
(05:43):
of God or the spirit of Satan.
Laurie (05:47):
Yeah, and that comes.
I mean, christianity is totallydifferent than Greek mythology,
obviously With Greek mythology,like you said, having some good
demons and bad demons, butChristianity, there's only bad
demons.
But you're right, and thousandsof years ago, the idea about
spiritual beings mingling aroundwith ordinary people became
(06:07):
integrated into the religiousviews of Judeo-Christianity,
with them being associated withthe mass of the fallen angels
who, along with Satan, were castout from heaven a long time ago
at some undetermined point intime, and that's the biblical
narrative on it at someundetermined point in time, and
that's the biblical narrative onit.
Joe (06:25):
Yeah, we know of this account, and it is that of the
Watchers, or the Fallen 200, whodescended upon Mount Hermon, as
is told in the Book of Enochand reiterated in the Book of
Revelation.
As we've seen from studying thescriptural narrative, we can
find allusions to the ancientalien theory.
If angels and deities, and eventhe recounting of the God of
(06:51):
the Bible, can be possiblythought of as our ancestors
misunderstood observations fromencounters with them, then could
the same be said of demons.
Are they actually evil spiritsand minions of the devil in hell
, or could they also berepresentations of
extraterrestrials, as toldthrough the storytelling lenses
of ancient writers?
Laurie (07:12):
Well, you know, joe, back in my street preaching days
, I used to debate with peopleabout this and at the time being
the fiery young Pentecostalpreacher, at the time, I
believed that alien greys andreptilians were demons and, to
be honest, though, I don'tremember hearing any sermons on
the subject, but I do remembersermons by pastors preaching
(07:36):
about Satan and that you know,he is the prince of darkness and
he rules the world and all ofits west and he has control over
it, rules the world and and allof its uh west, and he has over
uh, he has control over it overthe world.
But this was in relation to thescripture verse in ephesians 6,
12 by the apostle paul, whichsays for we wrestle not against
(07:57):
flesh and blood, but againstprincipalities, against powers,
against the rulers and thedarkness of this world, against
the spiritual wickednesses inhigh places.
Joe (08:08):
Yeah, what we have to keep in mind is that Paul was writing
a letter to the church in thecity of Ephesus, which is on the
Mediterranean, or I should say,the Aegean Sea coast in
modern-day Turkey and Asia Minor.
At the time it was a veryimportant crossroad, not only
for commerce and trade, but alsofor religion, and as such, it
(08:29):
was a place where a lot of ideasand beliefs were
inter-exchanged.
So Paul was trying to advisethe Christians there to,
quote-unquote put on the armorof God, as he tells them in the
next verse, so that they couldresist against what is referred
to as the cosmic powers of thisdark age.
Laurie (08:50):
Right, and it was there that Christianity was on the
rise and therefore taking awaymany followers of the Greek god
Artemis.
A silversmith named Demetriuswas particularly upset because
it affected his business, andArtemis was a goddess of
fertility and bounty, like herhalf-sister, aphrodite, a
(09:13):
goddess of love and beauty, whowas the daughter of Zeus and
Dione.
Artemis was closely associatedwith the moon and its changing
phases throughout the month, andof hunting, which is why she is
depicted with a bow and arrow,and she had a big following at
Ephesus until Christianity camealong and it became bad for
(09:36):
business.
Joe (09:37):
Yeah, and this profit-making from the worship
of pagan gods and goddessesfurther added to the focus on
how there were invisible forcesat work that were bringing about
evil and unrighteousness in theworld.
Hence we see the emphasis in theNew Testament on how the ways
of the world and that would bethe first century Greco-Roman
(09:57):
world of the Mediterranean andthe Middle East are not to be
followed by the ChristiansMiddle East and are not to be
followed by the Christians.
In fact, the early church wasfixated on the idea that evil
spirits were heavily at work inthe daily lives of people and
that they were constantly underattack by them, to the point
where they could fall undercomplete control by them through
(10:18):
bodily possession.
There was nothing abstractabout it.
They believed that the deviland his demons dwelt among them,
in the physical world as theyknew it, and to rebuke them in
the name of a demon calledLegion, to have authority over
(10:47):
it.
When he cast it or them out ofa man at Gerasenes, they begged
him not to send them off intothe abyss.
And also we see in the works ofthe second century church
fathers like Tertullian andOrigen that this authority is
said to be passed on to allChristians and that they are
(11:09):
free from the threat of everbeing possessed by a demon.
So we can see in thetheological formula of a sinful
life, with the possession byunclean spirits, that there is a
power structure to this.
Laurie (11:24):
Yeah, and you just mentioned something that.
So if you look on YouTube,you'll see tons of videos about
aliens and demons now, and a lotof preachers are actually
talking about, you know, demonsor aliens coming into bedrooms
and people mentioning the nameof Jesus and the alien grace I
(11:46):
guess they're talking aboutimmediately leave.
Well, it's like these nightterrors that people have, where
this entity comes into your roomand you feel it, and then you
start saying the name of Jesusand it goes away.
So the problem is and we'vebrought this up before where the
name of Jesus, the actualJ-E-S-U-S didn't come about.
(12:07):
For what?
500, 600 years ago, becausethey didn't have that J before
and it used to be Yesus and thenit came from Yeshua.
Joe (12:21):
Right, um, right, yes, I mean.
Uh, by the time the you knowthe Greek texts, the early new
Testament manuscripts, werebeing written, the name Jesus
would have been the translationfrom Joshua.
Um so yes, jesus and Joshuahave the same meaning of he who
brings salvation.
(12:41):
Um so yes, in the name of Jesus.
Um Jesus, I guess, would be inthe name of Joshua.
I think that's the literal sortof practice or understanding of
that of saying in the name ofJesus, the demons flee.
I don't know if that isn't takento a point, you know, where
(13:03):
there's really sort of an ad hocexplanation.
I mean, have we ever seen thishappen?
We've seen in the movies likeExorcist, where it's a long
ordeal, long process, wheresomebody is possessed and they
have to be exorcised.
It's not just simply say thename Jesus once and poof
everything is better, not justsimply say the name Jesus once
(13:26):
and poof everything is better.
It actually, from what you seein the movie the exorcist, and
also we hear from accounts frompriests who work with the
Vatican as exorcists that itcould take weeks or even months
of continual prayer andcontinual repetition of
continual prayer and continualrepetition, chanting of many
different prayers, usually inLatin, before the person is free
(13:51):
of the demon.
So I mean you see kind of ahodgepodge.
I mean I've seen those videosas well and I've been to many
church events where someone isacting like they're possessed by
a demon.
They're kind of angry andgrowling and everything like
that, and usually people, thechurch, the minister is laying
(14:11):
hands on them and praying andeventually they calm down.
It's kind of maybe part of aphenomenon of mass hysteria, I
don't know.
Laurie (14:20):
Yeah, yeah, I know that when I I mean in my younger days
I would do that, I feel thatpresence come in and then I
would say Jesus, and then youknow he would go away.
But the thing is, when I hadthose night terrors it was
because I was extremely andoverly tired.
It was so real that I looked up, I came out of my sleep and
(14:44):
there was this grim reapersitting at the foot of my bed
just looking at me.
And it was so real I justraised my head.
I didn't say Jesus or nothing,I just looked at it and said
whatever, I don't have time forthis.
Joe (15:00):
Laid my head back down, went back to sleep.
It could be in the name ofJesus.
We're just simply sayingwhatever, and the demon will
flee.
I mean, obviously, othercultures, other religions have
different phrases that are saidto make evil spirits flee.
In the Christian tradition it'sthe name of Jesus.
In the Old Testament, beforethere was Jesus, that wasn't the
(15:21):
practice of simply saying aname and casting out a demon
Prayer.
A lot of intercession, perhapseven animal sacrifice, had to be
done to purge someone believedto be possessed by an evil
spirit.
Laurie (15:36):
Right, well, reference to the pagan gods.
Notice how these gods andgoddesses they are all brothers
and sisters, husband and wives,etc.
Right With Greek mythology andsuch.
And Artemis, too, was one ofthe 12 Olympians and a sister to
Apollo, the sun god.
Now, where did you hear thatbefore?
(15:59):
Well, from the Sumerianpantheon and from the Babylonian
pantheon.
Here we have correlatingmythologies.
Apollo is Shamish, the sun god,whose twin sister is in Adah,
or Ishtar, goddess of fertility,love and hunting.
She is Artemis to the Greeks,deanna to the Romans.
(16:19):
And, as you said, joe, these arethe principalities and powers
that Paul was talking about.
Who are the rulers in thedarkness of this world?
They are the wickedness in highplaces was loaded with cult
(16:41):
followers of these deities, towhich the early Christians
attributed the absolutedecrepitation of society as well
as its complete moral downfall.
And we also find throughoutPaul's epistles, as well as in
the Gospels, of demons beingcast out of people.
So they were taught as beingquite powerful enough so that
(17:07):
they could overcome someone.
And it seems that ordinarypeople had some kind of unfair
disadvantage when they wereinvolved.
And I can't help but think ofhow similar that notion is to
how, during an alien encounter,and especially during an alien
abduction, that the person islikewise at a disadvantage to
(17:29):
the capabilities of these ETs.
Joe (17:31):
Well right.
So we have to wonder, you know,are the alien greys the ones we
know from our contemporaryculture?
Are they the agents that havebeen construed as demons over
centuries or millennia, maybeeven misrepresented as such?
Or vice versa?
Maybe aliens are being thoughtof as demons?
(17:53):
Demons being thought of asaliens and I mean greys kind of
look demonic, and of course sodo reptilian aliens, but I don't
want to focus know thisappearance so much of the demons
or evil spirits as lookinglizard-like.
That is indeed the classicaldepiction we see of them and
many sources of literature andartwork from around the world,
(18:16):
but it's also not all inclusive.
They're not always described asreptilian.
There are quite a few sourcesfrom cultures that talk about
demons looking more mammalian,some almost looking exactly like
human beings, some even thatlook like an inanimate object,
(18:37):
even as the presence of light orsound or some kind of sensation
.
Within the Arabic and Muslimlore, there are tales about the
jinn, who are an entire race ofbeings, very powerful beings,
who exist side by side withhumans and who can not only
shapeshift but can makethemselves completely invisible
if they want.
Of course, that beliefparallels others in which there
(19:01):
is a spiritual realm that is allaround us yet cannot be seen.
It can only be manifestedwithin the affairs of human
relationships and interactionsand through special revelation.
Laurie (19:15):
Yeah, and we can also see that such an idea also fits
in with the existence ofextraterrestrials.
Adduction reports usually drawa parallel with stories of
people saying that they haveencountered some kind of demonic
entity.
In our Western culture, a demonis typically defined as an evil
(19:36):
spirit or devil, and theseentities are sometimes described
as spiritual and non-tangible,where their presence is felt but
not seen.
And oftentimes they are said tobe more corporeal, with a
bodily form, and some peoplewill recall them as having a
(20:00):
frightful appearance.
It's like a reptilian, probably, or a gray and something like a
cryptid or or something verybeastly.
Yet other times they are saidto look benign and even
beautiful.
But is this the hard proof thataliens are one in the same as
(20:20):
demons?
No, of course not.
I mean.
To a born again Christian Iwould say perhaps yes, but not
to anyone else.
As we have discussed before, theGreys or some other potential
extraterrestrial species may besomething like helpers, guides,
facilitators or guardians ofhumanity, of humanity.
(20:50):
However, their true purposes andmotives for interacting with us
may be quite misunderstood, andthis idea may be a nuggles to
how animals respond in fear topeople doing things to try to
help them or the environment inwhich they live.
And think about how a dog actswhen someone tries to free it
from a confined place where itis in danger.
(21:11):
The dog tries everything it canto avoid a person and even bite
the person, regardless that theperson knows it is doing the
right thing for the dog.
So, despite the dog'sexperience of terror, the person
continues to do what he's doingbecause he sees the bigger
picture and the dog, ultimately,will be better off after being
(21:36):
taken away from where it is Now.
According to an article in theSkeptical Inquirer by Susan
Blackmore found on her websiteand dated back March 25th of
2002, that there are 4 millionAmericans who claim to have been
abducted and that about 40%indicate that it happened in
(21:56):
their homes while they wereasleep.
Joe (21:59):
That is interesting, and with that we find the ancient
tales of the incubus and thesuccubus, and it goes all the
way back to the time of theBabylonians.
It's ancient, very old.
These are demonic beings,spiritual yet often taking on
fleshly form, and they performsexual acts on people.
(22:19):
Incubi are masculine andsuccubi are feminine.
People strongly believe intheir existence all the way
through the Middle Ages, wherethey became part of the church
catechism, now the Jewish Talmud.
It speaks of a she-demon who issaid to be the first wife of
Adam, made before Eve.
She was banished from thegarden for not obeying Adam and
(22:44):
thus ended up becoming one ofthe fallen ones.
Only she was a female.
This is not in the canon.
This is the Talmud, whichwouldn't be considered an
inspired scripture, but it doesexist in the mythological
tradition of Jewish thought.
Tradition of Jewish thought.
(23:10):
Now, in an article from 1937,emile Kraling, with the Bulletin
of the American Schools ofOriental Research, claims there
is literary and archaeologicalevidence that connects Lilith
with the Mesopotamian deityInanna.
Now she is found in the Epic ofGilgamesh as well as many other
stories from Assyrian,babylonian and Sumerian
mythology, and this would be anindication of this very early
(23:31):
association of gods andgoddesses with either the
identity of the demons or elsetheir representation of their
struggles against demons.
Laurie (23:44):
Yeah, that's quite interesting and you know, I
remember speaking to GiorgioTsikalos at an AlienCon
conference some time ago and Itold him about how I had hoped
to bring more Christians in linewith accepting some of the
ancient alien theory andacademic merit of it merit of it
(24:12):
and he said that will be great,Just don't refer to them as
demons.
And I think he meant the aliengraves, of course, but he was
saying at least I think this iswhat he was saying he was saying
that, as a former preacher, youknow, don't tell Christians
that aliens are demons.
Like, don't make the excusethat, oh, those alien graves,
that's just demons.
Joe (24:28):
And don't blame theys for demonic activity, right?
Well, I think I'm going to haveto disagree with Giorgio.
I think any extraterrestrialbeing could very well fit the
imagery that we obtain fromancient sources about a demon,
whether it be benevolent or, asthey are sometimes depicted, or
a sinister one.
If you're going to want to makesome kind of connection between
(24:51):
Christianity and the idea ofalien encounters, it seems you
would have to at least try toshow the parallel in the
narratives about demons and ETs.
The cinematics may be different, but in the comparative
literary tradition the commonfeature is just that they can't
be flatly dismissed is becauseyou don't like calling aliens
demons.
Otherwise, we are trying tomake a special plea that
(25:15):
whatever people are talkingabout, you know they're talking
about conjuring spirits, and Imean any kind of spirit.
It is not anything about aliens, when it may very well be the
exact same phenomena.
Laurie (25:27):
Well, I agree.
I believe that it is a fairpremise to say if the ancients
could have misunderstoodHittites as gods, they could
also have misunderstood them asdemons as well as angels.
Eventually, the descriptions ofaliens could have become what
is now known to be where we getthe stories of demons throughout
(25:49):
the Bible.
And you know, joe, you and Iactually illustrated that very
idea in our sci-fi novel that wejust co-authored this year.
We took the characterization ofone alien race, which is the
reticulans, as the beings whoare set on.
You know, they're helping thehuman race survive in the face
of a threat from a differentrace of beings, which are the
(26:13):
Niberians and the ones who hadplayed a major hand in our
evolution.
So they're the Anunnaki, really, but they're from the planet
Nibiru.
So this would be consistentwith the idea that demons were
not always conceived as eviltormentors but, like in the
(26:34):
greek tradition, tradition whereuh were more like mentors to um
, to people that helpedilluminate for them the true
reality of the spirit of thespiritual world and material
world in which we live.
Joe (26:49):
Right, and our book illuminates the roles that
different alien species mayserve in their contact with
humanity.
Of course, nibirians.
Not only do they have a role inour evolution, but they're also
trying to enslave us.
In our novel and you know also,we show that some demon beings
(27:10):
are benevolent and that idea isnot very uncommon in the
association of the minds ofancient people.
They found that they're notalways ugly and wicked and vile.
But sometimes we find the Bibleeven mentioning sons of God.
And in Genesis 6.1, we see itreads Now it came to pass when
(27:32):
men began to multiply on theface of the earth and daughters
were born to them.
It goes on with saying the sonsof God saw the daughters of men
, that they were beautiful andthey took wives for themselves
of all whom they chose.
Now in the book of Enoch thesons of God were closely
identified with the fallen 200,the fallen angels.
(27:55):
These are the demons in theorthodox theology of
Judeo-Christianity.
In these passages they arepresented as sons of God, not
demons, sons of God or sons ofEgo-Him, and that they are
infatuated by the beauty of thedaughters of men.
Enoch 7.1 has these children ofheaven again, the demons, all
(28:17):
children of heaven, lustingafter them, saying come, let us
choose wives from among thechildren of men and beget us
children.
So we have to ask at what pointdo the fallen ones transition
from sons of God, whose onlyvice seems to be sexual desire,
and then go into evil spiritswho are doing the devil's dirty
(28:38):
work and actually spreadingsinfulness throughout the world?
Laurie (28:42):
Yeah, and it's said that they gave up their places with
God or the Elohim, and aftermarriage to their human wives,
they later became known as thefallen ones, and it says they
(29:04):
taught mankind the art ofmetallurgy, husbandry, jewelry
making, and also gives theirnames as well.
And were these ancient textsdescribing beings descending
from the sky, slash the heavens,an actual race of ancient
astronauts?
So, right at some point inreligious history, they take on
the image of actors of evil anddestruction because they went
against God's rules and you know, possessing people's bodies and
(29:29):
wreaking havoc in the world,when in reality, I believe they
were just spacecraft pilots ofthe ancient skies.
And Genesis uses the term sonsof God, enoch calls them angels,
the children of heaven.
So there is a good bit ofconfusion as to who these beings
really were.
So there is a good bit ofconfusion as to who these beings
(29:50):
really were, but to the ancientpeople they were understood as
otherworldly, and over time,religious dogma divided them up
into two separate camps angelswho dwell in heaven and serve
God and angels who had been castout along with the devil
Lucifer.
And they become known as thefallen ones or the fallen angels
, and later they becameassociated with the ideas of
(30:13):
demons who eventually weretaught of as malevolent.
Joe (30:20):
Yeah, so the Aniaki, of course, are what we would call
the gods in the Sumerianpantheon.
We've referenced that manytimes.
What we would call the gods inthe Sumerian pantheon.
We've referenced that manytimes.
It's a word derived to mean thedescendants of Anu, who is the
chief deity of the Sumerians,and they can be understood as
the extraterrestrials from theplanet Nibiru.
Zachariah Sitchin explainedthat in his series, the Earth
(30:46):
Chronicles, of how that could besort of explained and
demonstrated through literarytradition and through
archaeological evidence.
And when we're talking aboutthe watchers, we really mean
those beings who are sort ofdirectly interacted with humans
and taught the knowledge bywhich to help us in advance as a
species, perhaps breaking fromthe hierarchy of their own world
(31:08):
.
They watched or guided ourprogress.
The offspring of them, withhuman females, were known as the
Nephilim, which is a bit of amysterious word.
It comes from the Hebrew asmeaning ones who have descended.
However, it has also beenloosely translated as meaning
giants, which we find in partsof the Old Testament Most
(31:30):
well-known is from Genesis 6-4,as they seem to be the reason
for God wanting to send theflood and if they are the ones
to whom the meaning of a demonhas become portrayed in Judaism
and Christianity, then it doesnot appear that God was totally
successful in eliminating them,because they're apparently still
(31:51):
around.
There are also references tobeings in the Sumerian and
Akkadian traditions, as a gigi,who were said to be like
servants to the Anunnaki, andthis is kind of muddying the
mythological waters even more,the mythological waters even
more.
They could possibly be adifferent extraterrestrial
species altogether, maybe oneswho rebelled and possibly are
(32:12):
the same as the Watchers, whohave a more benevolent, benign
approach to interaction withhumanity, actually adoring
humanity, at least the womenfolkright.
They of course also can becalled gods, angels, sons of
gods, titans, watchers andfallen ones.
They may all refer to the samething.
(32:33):
They may all refer to beingsfrom beyond this planet, and all
of them, according to the earlychurch fathers, would represent
nothing short of demonicentities.
They're often thought to changeform sometimes, and other
religions have them going fromone form to another, let's say
to something more cuter andcuddlier.
(32:54):
It is told in Celtic, gaelic,nordic and Germanic folklore of
how demons have the capabilityto metamorphosize into animals
like rabbits, dogs and birds andthat are more appealing to
human eyes.
So it's to deceive people intoallowing them to get close
enough to deliver curses uponthem or evilness upon them.
(33:16):
We even find Paul saying in 2Corinthians 11, 14, that Satan
can transform himself into anangel of light.
So this is a persistent detailthat we find in the
conceptualization of evilentities, that is, that they can
change into other things, oftenmuch better looking things that
are appealing to the human eye.
Laurie (33:38):
Yeah, and the reptilians are, as you would expect,
referred to as tall and scalythey don't look pretty at all
and sometimes having tails.
But the question is, how andwhy did this type of being come
to exist in our culture?
As being an ancient entity thatresides underground, Because
(34:02):
this is where demons aresupposed to come from,
underground, which would be, Iguess, where hell would be and
it probably originated from thetale of the serpent in the
Garden of Eden.
The reptilians are oftenportrayed, as you know,
grotesque creatures that prey onhuman flesh and thirst for
human blood.
Is it possible that thereptilians are among several
(34:27):
races of giants referenced inthe Bible?
I mean, they might be theRephium, a group known to have
occupied the land of Canaanbefore being defeated by the
Israelites.
However, according toDeuteronomy 2, 11 to 20, the
Rephium were also described asinhabitants of the underworld,
(34:47):
and this description bears astriking resemblance to that of
the reptilians.
Now, when we envision thedemonic realm, we frequently
picture demons with fearsomefaces and sharp teeth, poised to
attack and consume both bodyand soul.
Right, but the reptilians maybe similar in appearance to that
(35:09):
of frightful demons.
So Revelation 9, 1-7,.
It describes large, locust-likebeings with curved tails
resembling scorpions and teethlike lions which are meant to
torment humans for up to fivemonths and, according to the
passage, these beings werereleased from the abyss which is
(35:34):
in the bottom and down below,but this wasn't until after an
object had crashed into theearth.
So I mean, does this storyattempt to depict the reptilians
emerging from underground, oryou know, a capsule crashing
into the earth and you knowaliens coming out of it?
Joe (35:52):
Yeah, and that's kind of interesting that we have this
imagery of, of course, heavenbeing high in the sky and that's
where God and angels and youknow good spirits dwell, and
then you have under the ground,where there's a devil and the
demons and bad spirits.
It's just to show thepolarization, I think, of the
good being so far above and, ofcourse, the evil being below.
(36:16):
But the imagery may derive fromsomething like you're saying at
some point, the story of theseentities coming from trashes,
from underground, where it mightbe a lot of destruction, and
that imagery may have persistedin the prehistoric narrative of
told about gods who come fromthe abyss or come from the
(36:38):
ground.
That abyss may be nothing morethan impact points from where
they've landed from anotherworld out in space, landed from
out from another world, about inspace.
Now, when we you know talkingabout, you know, demons, you
know there was a victorian eraoccultist named helena blavatsky
and we've talked about herquite a bit and the notion that
(36:59):
she believed is that there'sthese demonic creatures, that
they're not in hell, underground, that they're walking around
everywhere.
They're called archons and theyare everywhere, often
shapeshifted into some otherform, and they were also thought
by the first century Gnostics.
They lived in places likeAlexandria, jerusalem and Edessa
(37:23):
.
They were thought to beresponsible for bringing about
all the villainy and turmoil inthe world and were actually held
in positions of leadership inthe world, and that's why the
world has so many problems andstill does.
They were thought to dwelleverywhere and there are
apocryphal and pseudiographicsources in the literature from
(37:43):
Judaism and Islam that tell ofhow King Solomon Again, this is
non-canon.
You're not going to find thisin the Bible.
These are stories that areapocryphal.
It tells of how King Solomonhad the power to control demons
and rule them and actually putthem to work, actually do
physical labor.
In one of the stories, kingSolomon tricked a demon named
(38:08):
Asmodeus into helping him buildthe temple in Jerusalem, tricked
him into doing the hard labor,and that is a story that
persists in esoteric Judaism andesoteric Islam.
Laurie (38:24):
Yeah, and we get a lot of reports and lots of stories
in reference to these archonsand they could be ancestors of
skinwalkers, maybe, or theycould be somewhat related to the
reptilians.
Demons are frequently portrayedwith reptilian characteristics,
(38:45):
even though they are regardedas spiritual, or you know
reptilian characteristics eventhough they are regarded as
spiritual, or you knowmalevolent entities at times.
But these beings, they oftenmanifest in monstrous forms,
such as lizards, snakes or evendragons.
And when we refer to someone asbeing possessed by a demon, it
(39:07):
implies that the individual isunder its control, much like a
puppet or a shell inhabited by ademon.
And in this scenario the demoneffectively takes over the
person's body and its faculties.
And a good movie to watch iscalled Nefarious and all it is.
It's just this prison inmatewho is controlled by a demon.
(39:27):
I forget the demon's name.
But then there's thispsychologist that comes into
interviewing and it's justamazing acting, how this guy is
able to transform from thisdemon to the actual person.
But that's what demon position?
If you believe in demonposition, if you watch that
movie, nefarious, that's exactlyhow I guess it is portrayed.
Joe (39:51):
Right and among the early Christians.
You know, this idea aboutdemons corresponded directly to
paganism.
So paganism and pagan beliefswere seen as works of the devil
and pagan gods were seen ashandiwork of or servants of the
devil.
And pagan gods were seen as ahandiwork of or servants of the
devil were and they were demons.
I mean, a pagan God was simplya demon in the minds of early
(40:14):
Christians and that traditionhas carried on into.
You know the stories of incubiand succubi who had to, like we
said, the ability to shapeshiftinto beautiful forms and can
seduce people into having sexwith them, to shapeshift into
beautiful forms and can seducepeople into having sex with them
.
(40:34):
This belief was quite prominentamong Puritan parishes in New
England during the time of theSalem Witch Trials.
That was only 300, some oddyears ago.
In that case young women werecondemned for having had sexual
intercourse with the devil orwith a demon, and a lot of times
this was attributed tounexplained pregnancies or false
pregnancies.
That was considered theevidence, the indicator that a
(40:58):
girl had sex with a demonicbeing.
And this whole idea harkensback to what we've said before
in the book of Enoch about howthe fallen angels and they're
the ones who again areidentified as demons.
What did they do?
Well, they lost it after womenwant to have sex with them,
against their will often.
So it could be that there is anextraterrestrial association of
(41:21):
demons archons, djins in MiddleEastern lore, wendigos in
Native American lore and otherevil beings, and that is the
encounters our ancestors mayhave had with alien species
sometime way in the distant past, and not just with the Anunnaki
, but with others like aliengreys and reptilians.
(41:43):
And they're even more enigmaticin some of their capabilities
and technological advancements.
Laurie (41:50):
Yeah, and like they say with the djinn, they just appear
and disappear out of nowhere,and they do, apparently, have
sex with some people who theyabduct and who they visit into
their rooms at night.
This may serve as the sourcematerial for spiritual figures
such as the devil and demons,which could be linked to stories
(42:12):
of ancient astronauts lateridentified as the Watchers or
the Fallen Ones.
As detailed in the Book ofEnoch, and notably in chapters 8
and 9, these beingsrelinquished their positions
among the Elohim the Hebrew termfor God in the plural, after
taking human wives.
They imparted this knowledge tohumanity in various fields,
(42:36):
which we said, including themiddleurgy, husbandry and the
jewelry making, which can beviewed as a transfer of advanced
technology.
The Book of Enoch also includestheir names, and it's a detail
that's absent in the Bible.
(42:58):
This presents a challenge to thetraditional understanding of
angels, and if they are indeedspirits, how could they
experience love or lust forwomen?
How could they engage inprocreation, women?
How could they engage inprocreation?
For this to be possible, theywould need to possess a physical
(43:18):
flesh and blood form, and manybelieve that the skinwalkers are
shape-shifting witches that arepart of the dark magic and come
here via portal openings insome special locations, portal
openings in some speciallocations, where a lot of them
(43:39):
are reported to be on Navajolands, and some people believe
that skinwalkers are merelylegends, similar to figures like
the boogeyman and werewolves.
At times, the descriptions ofskinwalkers seem to resemble
those of alien greys, you knowthe thin bodies with skin draped
over their bones, skin overskeleton, capable of moving
(44:00):
quickly, among other traits.
And I mean I don't think theyare the alien greys, though,
because in Navajo the phrase yeinaraushi means with with it.
He goes on all forth.
Joe (44:15):
So this doesn't match what we think of as an alien grey at
all well, just about everyculture has its legends and
tales of demons that roam theearth the banshees, and the
Celtic and Gaelic lore, sirensand Greek mythology, like we
said, the djinn of the Arabs,the golem of the Jews, the
(44:38):
boogeyman of the Anglo-Germanicpeoples and they're all variants
of that kind of the same thing,and there's no shortage of them
.
Even the shamans and witchdoctors, who are nothing more
than tribespeople, are oftensaid to be possessed by spirits
that are wicked and devilish,also than tribespeople are often
said to be possessed by spiritsthat are wicked and devilish
Also, they consider howpractices of black magic and
(44:58):
voodoo around in the Caribbeanislands.
So there's plenty of ghoststories that go around about
demons.
As far as the devil, you know,just like God, the devil being
the head demon, he's believed tobe transcendent, just like God,
meaning that he is not bound bythe restrictions of space and
time like we are.
And just as God is all-knowingand all-present, it seems, so is
(45:24):
he, at least to an extent, anddepending on which denomination
or faith that you affiliate with, he possesses a degree of power
that is comparable to that ofGod.
Some believe that he is subduedand defeated and confined to
hell, yet able to affect greatlythe affairs of humanity.
(45:46):
And then there are others whosay that he is not yet confined
there and therefore is free toroam about with his demons and
wreak havoc on everyone.
Either way, he is thought of asthe embodiment of all evil, at
least in the Abrahamic religions, and the one who has brought
about the fall of man all theway back in the beginning.
(46:06):
He's to blame for all of theproblems.
So most of the other names wefind with him is Lucifer.
It's like the devil Satan,beelzebub, azazel, asmodeus, and
these all mainly come fromlater usages.
Throughout the parts of theworld, of the Middle East and
Europe Now, lucifer isconsidered to be the antithesis
(46:28):
of God, who is of course allgood, who is of course all good.
Now it gets kind of esotericwhen we talk about the dogma,
the contradiction between Godand the devil.
We'll just consider hispersonages in relation to his
name, lucifer.
Like the name of Yahweh,lucifer is derived from ancient
(46:51):
linguistics.
The Bible is fairly ambiguouson the personification and the
description of the devil.
His character really isn'tdeveloped until a little more
well in the Septuagint.
It talks a little more abouthis character, but most of our
understanding of him comes morefrom church teaching and
portrayals of things like youknow, paradise Lost by John
(47:14):
Milton, which was written in the17th century.
So what is he really?
Well, perhaps the image we haveof a Lucifer goes back to when
humanity had encountered, youknow, the Anunnaki, the aliens.
Laurie (47:27):
But Lucifer is.
He's often regarded by millionsas the ultimate tempter of
mankind.
He's responsible for bringingsin into the hearts of
individuals.
Yet if Lucifer was created byGod, then who is believed to be
the creator of all?
And if he once dwelled inheaven, how could this being
(47:47):
become consumed by pride andjealousy?
Now, what could drive him toinstigate a rebellion in a
divine, holy, perfect andspiritual realm such as heaven?
And this inquiry reflects theancient writers' interpretations
of the scriptural narrativesurrounding the conflict of good
versus evil.
However, let's explore this froma different perspective the
(48:11):
ancient alien perspective.
So envision an advanced aliencivilization arriving on Earth
hundreds of thousands of yearsago, sharing a resemblance with
modern humans, the Homo sapiens,in both appearance and behavior
, and they possessed atechnology to embark on
interstellar missions to ourplanet.
And ultimately they intervenewith the course of human
(48:34):
evolution.
And these extraterrestrialbeings lived, they walked and
communicated, they dined andimparted knowledge to our
primitive ancestors aboutscience, astronomy, agriculture
and even religion, just like wehad talked about from the Book
of Enoch, and what the Watchers,the angels, had done there with
humans.
So, like a scene from a sciencefiction film intergalactic
(48:58):
spaceships engaged in dramaticbattles overhead, you know,
complete with laser fire,full-time torpedoes.
It was during these epicconflicts that Earth, a newly
discovered planet which was richwith life and precious metals
you metals became the center ofattention.
A civilization of these giantextraterrestrials exploits a
(49:20):
planet for mining operations andamong them, one individual
seeks to gain sole control andbecome the new supreme commander
.
He rallies a substantialfollowing in attempt to
overthrow the current leadership, but, however, his coup d'etat
(49:41):
ultimately fails, leading to hisbanishment, along with his
supporters, from theorganizational hierarchy.
They then crash land on theplanet's surface, the being
Earth, and this event may lie atthe heart of the ancient
narratives about a cosmic warwhich could have misinterpreted
(50:02):
the story of Lucifer and hisfallen angels from their
memories, with their lexicons,to a point where, you know, a
space battle taking place in thesky has become, you know,
metamorphosed into a spiritualone taking place in the heavens
(50:23):
or from heaven, and this story,along with others in the Bible,
has been repeated and editedover and over again to fit the
narrative of the religion overand over again to fit the
narrative of the religion, thispattern of storytelling that
you're talking about.
Joe (50:39):
It is prevalent in various mythologies where there's this
animosity among the gods, andit's very apparent.
So the notion of a principaldeity acting as a primary
antagonist to a supreme deity isa recurring theme in many
religions, and this concept isresonated with people in ancient
(51:00):
times as they perhaps witnessconflicts going on among humans,
leading them to naturallyexpect a similar kind of rivalry
and discord among the gods.
So belief in the supernaturaland things that are otherworldly
has always permeated the mindsof people and to where it is, a
sublimated and unconsciousprocess that fulfills our, our
(51:21):
tendency, almost like a geneticdisposition, to believe in
something beyond the here andnow.
Humans are sort of born to wantto believe in things that they
haven't seen for themselves, butthey have a drive, a need, need
for faith, if you will.
Laurie (51:36):
So you know the word Lucifer.
It comes from the Latin lucumferi, which is bringer of light.
We see in Isaiah 14, 12, and 14, it says how you have fallen
from heaven, morning star, sonof the dawn, you have been cast
down to earth.
We know that the prophet istalking about Hila.
He's a Babylonian king and sonof a Shahar Shahar means God of
(52:01):
dawn in Ugaritic and he has abrother, shalem, which means God
of dust, and they are both bornof El.
So this is who Isaiah istalking about.
He's not talking about thedevil Lucifer.
Saint Jerome was a priest wholived between 347 to 420 AD.
(52:23):
He mistook the metaphor in thebook of Isaiah when writing the
Vulgate, the Latin translationof the Bible, and he fabricated
Lucifer as being the morningstar and a disobedient angel,
based on the vile reputation ofa heretic named Lucifer
Calamarius of Sardinia.
(52:44):
And the identity of thisindividual is unmistakably
associated with various textualredactions of the scriptures
linked to figures such as thedevil, satan, the deceiver and
the prince of darkness.
It is important to recognizethat the book of Isaiah was
written between 700 and 686 BC,long before any biblical
(53:06):
manuscripts were translated intoLatin, so this clearly
indicates that the term Luciferwas introduced much later,
meaning the original text didnot identify an antagonist named
Lucifer or Satan.
So, consequently, the mythssurrounding this figure are
undoubtedly rooted in othercharacters, most likely from
(53:28):
Mesopotamian cultures, and thebook of Revelation describes how
Lucifer's pride and arroganceemerged when he resided in
heaven, leading to his eventualfall.
Our ancestors, however, hadlimited knowledge and vocabulary
to explain such phenomena, andwhen they witnessed alien
spacecraft descending from thesky, they interpreted these
(53:49):
sightings through the lens oftheir own belief, telling
stories of gods or angels comingdown from the heavens.
Lacking a conceptual frameworkfor beings from other planets or
the advanced technology theyobserved, they struggled to
articulate what they saw.
As a result, the myths passeddown through generations reflect
(54:12):
these encounters using thelanguage and ideas available to
them at the time.
Joe (54:18):
Well, I mentioned the Gnostics of the second century
AD, and they actually believedthat the God of the Bible, who
we would know as the Creator,was a character called
Yaldabaoth, and that he was notthe true God.
That would have been a much moresuperior and a much more
(54:39):
abstract and more remote God,much, much more remote.
And while Yaldabaoth is notconventionally regarded as the
devil, he displays certaintraits that are reminiscent of
Lucifer, including an excessivesense of pride and arrogance
that prevents him fromrecognizing any existence of a
higher power.
(55:00):
So Yaldabaoth perceives himselfas the true God, an actual
creator, despite not fulfillingthat role, and remains oblivious
to the presence of a superiordeity who created even more to
include himself.
That superior god createdYaldabaoth, who created the
(55:20):
known universe that we see.
So this megalomania,accompanied by vengefulness and
pettiness and self-servingbehavior, underscores his lack
of divine perfection.
Consequently, the inherentflaws within the physical realm
of our existence can beattributed to Yaldabaoth, who is
(55:42):
a flawed creator of earth,rather than a true God, who is
perfection.
So they attributed theimperfection of our world to an
imperfect creator, who is notthe true perfect God of our
world, to an imperfect creator,who is not the true perfect god.
obviously, this was rejected asuh hearsay I hear a say by the
early christians um, and it washardly consistent in the beliefs
(56:03):
back then about the forces ofgood and evil and it wasn't
consistent with the ideas aboutgod and the devil, so it was
completely rejected.
Laurie (56:11):
and as they were rejected as heretics, Of course,
there is also a parallel inSumerian mythology with a
Lucifer-like rebellion in thestory of Alalu, who becomes
dethroned by Anu as the king ofNibiru.
After suffering defeat in asignificant battle, alalu found
himself ostracized by his peersand had no choice but to flee
(56:35):
his own planet, nibiru, insearch of refuge on Earth.
Unfortunately, during hisjourney, his spacecraft
encountered severe difficultiesand ultimately crashed,
rendering him unconscious uponimpact.
And when he finally regainedconsciousness, alilu exited his
damaged vessel to survey hissurroundings and, to his
(56:58):
astonishment, he discovered aremarkable wealth of gold
scattered across the landscape,glimmering in the sunlight.
Recognizing that the gold couldplay a crucial role in
addressing the dire situationfacing Nibiru Addressing the
(57:20):
dire situation facing Nibiru,specifically the urgent need to
restore and replenish itsdeterring atmosphere, he felt
compelled to act.
And, with a sense ofresponsibility for his planet's
survival, alilu initiatedcommunication with his homeworld
.
He carefully sent back thecoordinates of Earth's location,
hoping to inform his fellowNibirians of the precious
resources available and thepotential for salvation through
(57:41):
the wealth he had found.
This discovery marked thebeginning of a new hissing sound
pierced the tranquil air and itstartled him.
(58:03):
He lifted his gaze and therebefore him lay a serpent, a
snake, its scales shimmeringlike jewels in the dappled
sunlight, and it was a creaturehe had never encountered before,
his scales shimmering likejewels in the dappled sunlight.
And it was a creature he hadnever encountered before, so it
was unfamiliar and it wasmenacing.
And fear gripped him and,without thinking, he raised his
(58:26):
weapon and struck swiftly,ending the creature's life in
this moment, life in this moment.
And so in this moment we cantrace a profound connection
between the divine and theserpent, a relationship echoed
in countless stories throughouttime, notably in the tale of the
(58:46):
fall of the Garden of Eden,where a dramatic conflict
unfolds between these twoancient forces, and you can read
about this story in the LostBook of Enki by Zechariah
Sitchin.
Joe (58:55):
Yeah, so what this tells us is there quite a few
alternative perspectives on themythology of the creation of the
earth and indeed the wholeuniverse and also the origin of
good and evil.
Judeo-christianity is being oneof them.
There are many of them thatexist in a similar sort of style
(59:17):
, sort of format, but obviouslythe characters and a lot of the
backdrop is a little bitdifferent.
Like Enki is the son of Anu andthe half-brother of Enlil, is
frequently mischaracterized asthe serpent due to his role in
providing wisdom to humanity.
In that mythology, in thatnarrative you were talking about
(59:38):
Laurie the serpent tempts Eve.
In the story we have in theBible, it tempts Eve to eat from
the tree of knowledge, whichleads the authors of Genesis to
depict the serpent as malevolentin the Garden of Eden narrative
that they wrote.
This reflects a notablehostility that Enlil harbors
(01:00:01):
toward Enki.
Importantly, enki later deviseda plan to save humanity from
the flood which was ordered byAnu and Enlil wanting to wipe
out humanity.
Enki wants to save humanity andacts against their plan, as
well as the other members of theAnunnaki, and he's the one who
(01:00:25):
warned Ziasudra, who is aka Noah, to build a boat in the hopes
of sparing humanity'sannihilation.
Laurie (01:00:35):
Yeah, so in these Sumerian texts, enki was lord
over the abyss.
The term abyss should not beunderstood in the conventional
context of hell.
It actually refers to thesouthern hemisphere of the earth
known as the lower world,particularly within the Abzu,
where the deity Enki resides.
(01:00:55):
The Apsu is characterized notby darkness but by brightness
and purity and abundance ofwater resources, and Enki is
recognized as the lord of manywaters inhabiting the central
region of the Apsu in the lowerworld, which corresponds to, I
think, probably aroundpresent-day South Africa.
Joe (01:01:17):
Well, it's also important to note in these imperative
literary depictions of the storyof the fall, the serpent is not
directly identified as Satan.
It is inferred from textualhermeneutics that being the
wisest and the crappiest ofpreachers in the garden and that
(01:01:37):
he was using his knowledge totrick Eve and then Adam into
eating the fruit that wasforbidden by God.
That he must be the devil.
But it doesn't say directly.
It's inferred through laterreadings in the scriptures.
So it's more or less assumedthat the serpent was behaving
(01:02:00):
this way as the devil is ashapeshifter, or else he's being
used as an instrument by Satan.
I mean the very fact that he'sable to talk to Eve in the story
must mean evil is afoot right?
You know, Carl Jung passionatelystudied the varied symbolism
concerning serpents and Luciferand evil and wisdom.
He was actually almost obsessedwith the psychological
(01:02:21):
relationship among all those and, using somewhat illusory
methods, he explained that theirmeanings are found deeply
hidden in the images of ourdeepest psyches, such that they
relate to God and the devil,angels and demons and good and
evil, and they representarchetypes that have become
(01:02:44):
manifested in the way of dreams,visions and myths that stem
from a collective memory that weall inherit as part of our
mental processes.
We have an innate andinstinctual and somewhat
subconscious drive to connectwith what our ancestors had
experienced and to connect withwhat we believe is the spiritual
.
So, with all the culturesaround the world and with all
(01:03:06):
their complex and diversemythologies, is it possible that
there is going to bemisunderstanding and
misinterpretation about thingslike spiritual dogma and demons?
We all know for a fact thatthat is the case.
Therefore, it could also be thecase that faith and scriptures
in this context, are ways tosatisfy that drive and that they
(01:03:29):
unveil these images in ourminds of a time long, long ago
when humanity was in contactwith nothing other than
extraterrestrial beings.
So, as always, you, theaudience, must decide for
yourselves, and that will wrapit.
Laurie (01:03:46):
Yeah, we want to thank all of you for joining us once
again.
Let us know your thoughts onthis topic by sending us a
message via our website, alientalk podcast dot com, our
Facebook page or on our Facebookmessenger.
We would love to hear from youand hear your thoughts.
Joe (01:04:07):
Yeah, we sure would, and next time we hope to bring you
some of the points brought fromLuis Elizondo conference that we
attended.
We'd hope to do that next month, in December.
There were some things thatwere particularly noteworthy and
that were brought up in how weas ordinary people are to fully
understand unidentified aerialphenomena.
(01:04:30):
He did so both by giving factsand by illustrating some common
misconceptions about UAPs andUFOs.
So we look forward to that.
Until then, stay curious.
Hello everybody, thank you for joining us on Alien Talk
Podcast.
This is the show where wediscuss all things about aliens
and UFOs and, as always, wherewe push the limits of our
understanding.
Joe Landry and oy Opert hereonce again to seek out the truth
and find the facts pertainingto the highly discussed issues
about extraterrestrial life andthe existence of UFOs.
(00:22):
So we have a great topic to getinto with you.
First off, lori and I went tothe UAP Disclosure Conference
this past Sunday evening, whichwas hosted by the Rialto Theater
in Tucson, arizona.
The presenting speaker was LuisElizondo, who most of you know
(00:44):
from his appearances on TV showslike Ancient Aliens, the UFO
Files and the Unexplained.
He is a former program managerwith the Department of Defense,
former military, as well as aspecial agent for
counterintelligence whose topresponsibilities were the
investigation of unidentifiedanomalous phenomena.
(01:06):
That is part of the PentagonUAP Task Force, which is now
under the name AOIMSG.
It was quite an event.
He's an excellent speaker whois very well informed as a
subject matter expert.
Laurie (01:21):
Yeah, it was, and we'll go over some of the highlights
that we took from it and presentit to you guys in a future
episode, and he gave out quite abit of info, but before I
comment further on this, I justwant everyone to know that I
just got back from Canada andwas advised that listeners up
there are unable to locate ournovel battle planet ad A.
(01:44):
D.
Relic of the Gods on Amazon.
ca, and I was able to locate itby clicking on our names or by
searching our author's names onAmazon.
So all you got to do is searchfor Joseph Landry or L.
Sheldon Oldford and our books,including our novel.
They should pop up, they shouldappear.
Books, including our novel,they should pop up, they should
(02:07):
appear, and I assume that anyoneelse, from whichever country
you're listening from, will haveto be.
You would have to do it thesame way.
So please let us know if thisworks and thank you in advance
for purchasing the books.
So back to the topic.
One of the things that hasalways impressed me about Luis
Elizondo is his thoroughknowledge about how these
(02:28):
government programs are handledand how they are managed by some
of our officials, and he has avery pragmatic and efficient
approach to the way heinvestigates UFO cases.
Investigates UFO cases.
Joe (02:42):
Yeah, I think he referred to himself as a nuts and bolts
kind of guy when it comes toUAPs and the disclosure and just
the overall discussion of whatthey are.
So definitely more to come onthat a little later.
He's certainly a veryknowledgeable about some of the
covert and inner workings of ourmilitary and Department of
(03:03):
Defense and I think he had a bigpart in the program when it was
called AARO.
I think it's changed to AOIMSGnow, but it was called AARO
before that.
This is the UAP Task Force,aero being All Domain Anomaly
Resolution Office.
He did refer to that in hispresentation.
It was very interesting tolisten to.
(03:23):
I'm glad we got to go hear himspeak.
So, yeah, we'd like to talkmore about that at a later time
in one of our future episodes,most likely the next one.
We'd like to maybe knock thatout in December.
So tonight our show is calledAlien Demons, so as to
correspond to the name of thesecond show that we did right
(03:46):
here on Alien Talk Podcastdebuted three and a half years
ago, that one being Alien Angels.
So, in a similar manner and howwe talked about the nature and
identity of angels as we find inreligion and mythology, we're
going to examine the nature andidentity of demons to find if
there is a connection to theancient alien narrative.
Laurie (04:09):
Yeah, so it's going to get exciting.
So if you are hanging out withfriends or whatnot, get your
coffees ready, your glass ofwhiskey, whatever your favorite
drink, sit back, relax andhopefully you enjoy this
discussion.
But we've all heard of demonsand almost all of us have a very
negative association with themeaning of the word, and when
(04:33):
something or someone is said tobe demonic or possessed by
demons, it conveys the idea thatthey or it is pure evil or at
least controlled by forces ofpure evil.
There's nothing good that comesfrom demons or anything that's
demonic, and in the minds of thepeople most people that would,
(04:54):
of course, you know the headdemon would be the devil.
Joe (04:59):
Yeah, so the word comes from the Greek daemon to mean
divine spirit.
The word comes from the Greekdaemon to mean divine spirit,
and in the Greco-Roman mythologyit did not necessarily mean
something malevolent.
At least in and of itself itcarried a connotation of being
something that is, a guide ofthe conscious that could instill
virtue, as Plato had said aboutSocrates and also about vice.
(05:23):
Generally, good people have hadgood demons at their sides, bad
people had bad ones, makessense.
We kind of make the samereferences even to this in this
day and age, about things likespiritual warfare and spirit
guides, about how people arepossessed by either the spirit
(05:43):
of God or the spirit of Satan.
Laurie (05:47):
Yeah, and that comes.
I mean, christianity is totallydifferent than Greek mythology,
obviously With Greek mythology,like you said, having some good
demons and bad demons, butChristianity, there's only bad
demons.
But you're right, and thousandsof years ago, the idea about
spiritual beings mingling aroundwith ordinary people became
(06:07):
integrated into the religiousviews of Judeo-Christianity,
with them being associated withthe mass of the fallen angels
who, along with Satan, were castout from heaven a long time ago
at some undetermined point intime, and that's the biblical
narrative on it at someundetermined point in time, and
that's the biblical narrative onit.
Joe (06:25):
Yeah, we know of this account, and it is that of the
Watchers, or the Fallen 200, whodescended upon Mount Hermon, as
is told in the Book of Enochand reiterated in the Book of
Revelation.
As we've seen from studying thescriptural narrative, we can
find allusions to the ancientalien theory.
If angels and deities, and eventhe recounting of the God of
(06:51):
the Bible, can be possiblythought of as our ancestors
misunderstood observations fromencounters with them, then could
the same be said of demons.
Are they actually evil spiritsand minions of the devil in hell
, or could they also berepresentations of
extraterrestrials, as toldthrough the storytelling lenses
of ancient writers?
Laurie (07:12):
Well, you know, joe, back in my street preaching days
, I used to debate with peopleabout this and at the time being
the fiery young Pentecostalpreacher, at the time, I
believed that alien greys andreptilians were demons and, to
be honest, though, I don'tremember hearing any sermons on
the subject, but I do remembersermons by pastors preaching
(07:36):
about Satan and that you know,he is the prince of darkness and
he rules the world and all ofits west and he has control over
it, rules the world and and allof its uh west, and he has over
uh, he has control over it overthe world.
But this was in relation to thescripture verse in ephesians 6,
12 by the apostle paul, whichsays for we wrestle not against
(07:57):
flesh and blood, but againstprincipalities, against powers,
against the rulers and thedarkness of this world, against
the spiritual wickednesses inhigh places.
Joe (08:08):
Yeah, what we have to keep in mind is that Paul was writing
a letter to the church in thecity of Ephesus, which is on the
Mediterranean, or I should say,the Aegean Sea coast in
modern-day Turkey and Asia Minor.
At the time it was a veryimportant crossroad, not only
for commerce and trade, but alsofor religion, and as such, it
(08:29):
was a place where a lot of ideasand beliefs were
inter-exchanged.
So Paul was trying to advisethe Christians there to,
quote-unquote put on the armorof God, as he tells them in the
next verse, so that they couldresist against what is referred
to as the cosmic powers of thisdark age.
Laurie (08:50):
Right, and it was there that Christianity was on the
rise and therefore taking awaymany followers of the Greek god
Artemis.
A silversmith named Demetriuswas particularly upset because
it affected his business, andArtemis was a goddess of
fertility and bounty, like herhalf-sister, aphrodite, a
(09:13):
goddess of love and beauty, whowas the daughter of Zeus and
Dione.
Artemis was closely associatedwith the moon and its changing
phases throughout the month, andof hunting, which is why she is
depicted with a bow and arrow,and she had a big following at
Ephesus until Christianity camealong and it became bad for
(09:36):
business.
Joe (09:37):
Yeah, and this profit-making from the worship
of pagan gods and goddessesfurther added to the focus on
how there were invisible forcesat work that were bringing about
evil and unrighteousness in theworld.
Hence we see the emphasis in theNew Testament on how the ways
of the world and that would bethe first century Greco-Roman
(09:57):
world of the Mediterranean andthe Middle East are not to be
followed by the ChristiansMiddle East and are not to be
followed by the Christians.
In fact, the early church wasfixated on the idea that evil
spirits were heavily at work inthe daily lives of people and
that they were constantly underattack by them, to the point
where they could fall undercomplete control by them through
(10:18):
bodily possession.
There was nothing abstractabout it.
They believed that the deviland his demons dwelt among them,
in the physical world as theyknew it, and to rebuke them in
the name of a demon calledLegion, to have authority over
(10:47):
it.
When he cast it or them out ofa man at Gerasenes, they begged
him not to send them off intothe abyss.
And also we see in the works ofthe second century church
fathers like Tertullian andOrigen that this authority is
said to be passed on to allChristians and that they are
(11:09):
free from the threat of everbeing possessed by a demon.
So we can see in thetheological formula of a sinful
life, with the possession byunclean spirits, that there is a
power structure to this.
Laurie (11:24):
Yeah, and you just mentioned something that.
So if you look on YouTube,you'll see tons of videos about
aliens and demons now, and a lotof preachers are actually
talking about, you know, demonsor aliens coming into bedrooms
and people mentioning the nameof Jesus and the alien grace I
(11:46):
guess they're talking aboutimmediately leave.
Well, it's like these nightterrors that people have, where
this entity comes into your roomand you feel it, and then you
start saying the name of Jesusand it goes away.
So the problem is and we'vebrought this up before where the
name of Jesus, the actualJ-E-S-U-S didn't come about.
(12:07):
For what?
500, 600 years ago, becausethey didn't have that J before
and it used to be Yesus and thenit came from Yeshua.
Joe (12:21):
Right, um, right, yes, I mean.
Uh, by the time the you knowthe Greek texts, the early new
Testament manuscripts, werebeing written, the name Jesus
would have been the translationfrom Joshua.
Um so yes, jesus and Joshuahave the same meaning of he who
brings salvation.
(12:41):
Um so yes, in the name of Jesus.
Um Jesus, I guess, would be inthe name of Joshua.
I think that's the literal sortof practice or understanding of
that of saying in the name ofJesus, the demons flee.
I don't know if that isn't takento a point, you know, where
(13:03):
there's really sort of an ad hocexplanation.
I mean, have we ever seen thishappen?
We've seen in the movies likeExorcist, where it's a long
ordeal, long process, wheresomebody is possessed and they
have to be exorcised.
It's not just simply say thename Jesus once and poof
everything is better, not justsimply say the name Jesus once
(13:26):
and poof everything is better.
It actually, from what you seein the movie the exorcist, and
also we hear from accounts frompriests who work with the
Vatican as exorcists that itcould take weeks or even months
of continual prayer andcontinual repetition of
continual prayer and continualrepetition, chanting of many
different prayers, usually inLatin, before the person is free
(13:51):
of the demon.
So I mean you see kind of ahodgepodge.
I mean I've seen those videosas well and I've been to many
church events where someone isacting like they're possessed by
a demon.
They're kind of angry andgrowling and everything like
that, and usually people, thechurch, the minister is laying
(14:11):
hands on them and praying andeventually they calm down.
It's kind of maybe part of aphenomenon of mass hysteria, I
don't know.
Laurie (14:20):
Yeah, yeah, I know that when I I mean in my younger days
I would do that, I feel thatpresence come in and then I
would say Jesus, and then youknow he would go away.
But the thing is, when I hadthose night terrors it was
because I was extremely andoverly tired.
It was so real that I looked up, I came out of my sleep and
(14:44):
there was this grim reapersitting at the foot of my bed
just looking at me.
And it was so real I justraised my head.
I didn't say Jesus or nothing,I just looked at it and said
whatever, I don't have time forthis.
Joe (15:00):
Laid my head back down, went back to sleep.
It could be in the name ofJesus.
We're just simply sayingwhatever, and the demon will
flee.
I mean, obviously, othercultures, other religions have
different phrases that are saidto make evil spirits flee.
In the Christian tradition it'sthe name of Jesus.
In the Old Testament, beforethere was Jesus, that wasn't the
(15:21):
practice of simply saying aname and casting out a demon
Prayer.
A lot of intercession, perhapseven animal sacrifice, had to be
done to purge someone believedto be possessed by an evil
spirit.
Laurie (15:36):
Right, well, reference to the pagan gods.
Notice how these gods andgoddesses they are all brothers
and sisters, husband and wives,etc.
Right With Greek mythology andsuch.
And Artemis, too, was one ofthe 12 Olympians and a sister to
Apollo, the sun god.
Now, where did you hear thatbefore?
(15:59):
Well, from the Sumerianpantheon and from the Babylonian
pantheon.
Here we have correlatingmythologies.
Apollo is Shamish, the sun god,whose twin sister is in Adah,
or Ishtar, goddess of fertility,love and hunting.
She is Artemis to the Greeks,deanna to the Romans.
(16:19):
And, as you said, joe, these arethe principalities and powers
that Paul was talking about.
Who are the rulers in thedarkness of this world?
They are the wickedness in highplaces was loaded with cult
(16:41):
followers of these deities, towhich the early Christians
attributed the absolutedecrepitation of society as well
as its complete moral downfall.
And we also find throughoutPaul's epistles, as well as in
the Gospels, of demons beingcast out of people.
So they were taught as beingquite powerful enough so that
(17:07):
they could overcome someone.
And it seems that ordinarypeople had some kind of unfair
disadvantage when they wereinvolved.
And I can't help but think ofhow similar that notion is to
how, during an alien encounter,and especially during an alien
abduction, that the person islikewise at a disadvantage to
(17:29):
the capabilities of these ETs.
Joe (17:31):
Well right.
So we have to wonder, you know,are the alien greys the ones we
know from our contemporaryculture?
Are they the agents that havebeen construed as demons over
centuries or millennia, maybeeven misrepresented as such?
Or vice versa?
Maybe aliens are being thoughtof as demons?
(17:53):
Demons being thought of asaliens and I mean greys kind of
look demonic, and of course sodo reptilian aliens, but I don't
want to focus know thisappearance so much of the demons
or evil spirits as lookinglizard-like.
That is indeed the classicaldepiction we see of them and
many sources of literature andartwork from around the world,
(18:16):
but it's also not all inclusive.
They're not always described asreptilian.
There are quite a few sourcesfrom cultures that talk about
demons looking more mammalian,some almost looking exactly like
human beings, some even thatlook like an inanimate object,
(18:37):
even as the presence of light orsound or some kind of sensation
.
Within the Arabic and Muslimlore, there are tales about the
jinn, who are an entire race ofbeings, very powerful beings,
who exist side by side withhumans and who can not only
shapeshift but can makethemselves completely invisible
if they want.
Of course, that beliefparallels others in which there
(19:01):
is a spiritual realm that is allaround us yet cannot be seen.
It can only be manifestedwithin the affairs of human
relationships and interactionsand through special revelation.
Laurie (19:15):
Yeah, and we can also see that such an idea also fits
in with the existence ofextraterrestrials.
Adduction reports usually drawa parallel with stories of
people saying that they haveencountered some kind of demonic
entity.
In our Western culture, a demonis typically defined as an evil
(19:36):
spirit or devil, and theseentities are sometimes described
as spiritual and non-tangible,where their presence is felt but
not seen.
And oftentimes they are said tobe more corporeal, with a
bodily form, and some peoplewill recall them as having a
(20:00):
frightful appearance.
It's like a reptilian, probably, or a gray and something like a
cryptid or or something verybeastly.
Yet other times they are saidto look benign and even
beautiful.
But is this the hard proof thataliens are one in the same as
(20:20):
demons?
No, of course not.
I mean.
To a born again Christian Iwould say perhaps yes, but not
to anyone else.
As we have discussed before, theGreys or some other potential
extraterrestrial species may besomething like helpers, guides,
facilitators or guardians ofhumanity, of humanity.
(20:50):
However, their true purposes andmotives for interacting with us
may be quite misunderstood, andthis idea may be a nuggles to
how animals respond in fear topeople doing things to try to
help them or the environment inwhich they live.
And think about how a dog actswhen someone tries to free it
from a confined place where itis in danger.
(21:11):
The dog tries everything it canto avoid a person and even bite
the person, regardless that theperson knows it is doing the
right thing for the dog.
So, despite the dog'sexperience of terror, the person
continues to do what he's doingbecause he sees the bigger
picture and the dog, ultimately,will be better off after being
(21:36):
taken away from where it is Now.
According to an article in theSkeptical Inquirer by Susan
Blackmore found on her websiteand dated back March 25th of
2002, that there are 4 millionAmericans who claim to have been
abducted and that about 40%indicate that it happened in
(21:56):
their homes while they wereasleep.
Joe (21:59):
That is interesting, and with that we find the ancient
tales of the incubus and thesuccubus, and it goes all the
way back to the time of theBabylonians.
It's ancient, very old.
These are demonic beings,spiritual yet often taking on
fleshly form, and they performsexual acts on people.
(22:19):
Incubi are masculine andsuccubi are feminine.
People strongly believe intheir existence all the way
through the Middle Ages, wherethey became part of the church
catechism, now the Jewish Talmud.
It speaks of a she-demon who issaid to be the first wife of
Adam, made before Eve.
She was banished from thegarden for not obeying Adam and
(22:44):
thus ended up becoming one ofthe fallen ones.
Only she was a female.
This is not in the canon.
This is the Talmud, whichwouldn't be considered an
inspired scripture, but it doesexist in the mythological
tradition of Jewish thought.
Tradition of Jewish thought.
(23:10):
Now, in an article from 1937,emile Kraling, with the Bulletin
of the American Schools ofOriental Research, claims there
is literary and archaeologicalevidence that connects Lilith
with the Mesopotamian deityInanna.
Now she is found in the Epic ofGilgamesh as well as many other
stories from Assyrian,babylonian and Sumerian
mythology, and this would be anindication of this very early
(23:31):
association of gods andgoddesses with either the
identity of the demons or elsetheir representation of their
struggles against demons.
Laurie (23:44):
Yeah, that's quite interesting and you know, I
remember speaking to GiorgioTsikalos at an AlienCon
conference some time ago and Itold him about how I had hoped
to bring more Christians in linewith accepting some of the
ancient alien theory andacademic merit of it merit of it
(24:12):
and he said that will be great,Just don't refer to them as
demons.
And I think he meant the aliengraves, of course, but he was
saying at least I think this iswhat he was saying he was saying
that, as a former preacher, youknow, don't tell Christians
that aliens are demons.
Like, don't make the excusethat, oh, those alien graves,
that's just demons.
Joe (24:28):
And don't blame theys for demonic activity, right?
Well, I think I'm going to haveto disagree with Giorgio.
I think any extraterrestrialbeing could very well fit the
imagery that we obtain fromancient sources about a demon,
whether it be benevolent or, asthey are sometimes depicted, or
a sinister one.
If you're going to want to makesome kind of connection between
(24:51):
Christianity and the idea ofalien encounters, it seems you
would have to at least try toshow the parallel in the
narratives about demons and ETs.
The cinematics may be different, but in the comparative
literary tradition the commonfeature is just that they can't
be flatly dismissed is becauseyou don't like calling aliens
demons.
Otherwise, we are trying tomake a special plea that
(25:15):
whatever people are talkingabout, you know they're talking
about conjuring spirits, and Imean any kind of spirit.
It is not anything about aliens, when it may very well be the
exact same phenomena.
Laurie (25:27):
Well, I agree.
I believe that it is a fairpremise to say if the ancients
could have misunderstoodHittites as gods, they could
also have misunderstood them asdemons as well as angels.
Eventually, the descriptions ofaliens could have become what
is now known to be where we getthe stories of demons throughout
(25:49):
the Bible.
And you know, joe, you and Iactually illustrated that very
idea in our sci-fi novel that wejust co-authored this year.
We took the characterization ofone alien race, which is the
reticulans, as the beings whoare set on.
You know, they're helping thehuman race survive in the face
of a threat from a differentrace of beings, which are the
(26:13):
Niberians and the ones who hadplayed a major hand in our
evolution.
So they're the Anunnaki, really, but they're from the planet
Nibiru.
So this would be consistentwith the idea that demons were
not always conceived as eviltormentors but, like in the
(26:34):
greek tradition, tradition whereuh were more like mentors to um
, to people that helpedilluminate for them the true
reality of the spirit of thespiritual world and material
world in which we live.
Joe (26:49):
Right, and our book illuminates the roles that
different alien species mayserve in their contact with
humanity.
Of course, nibirians.
Not only do they have a role inour evolution, but they're also
trying to enslave us.
In our novel and you know also,we show that some demon beings
(27:10):
are benevolent and that idea isnot very uncommon in the
association of the minds ofancient people.
They found that they're notalways ugly and wicked and vile.
But sometimes we find the Bibleeven mentioning sons of God.
And in Genesis 6.1, we see itreads Now it came to pass when
(27:32):
men began to multiply on theface of the earth and daughters
were born to them.
It goes on with saying the sonsof God saw the daughters of men
, that they were beautiful andthey took wives for themselves
of all whom they chose.
Now in the book of Enoch thesons of God were closely
identified with the fallen 200,the fallen angels.
(27:55):
These are the demons in theorthodox theology of
Judeo-Christianity.
In these passages they arepresented as sons of God, not
demons, sons of God or sons ofEgo-Him, and that they are
infatuated by the beauty of thedaughters of men.
Enoch 7.1 has these children ofheaven again, the demons, all
(28:17):
children of heaven, lustingafter them, saying come, let us
choose wives from among thechildren of men and beget us
children.
So we have to ask at what pointdo the fallen ones transition
from sons of God, whose onlyvice seems to be sexual desire,
and then go into evil spiritswho are doing the devil's dirty
(28:38):
work and actually spreadingsinfulness throughout the world?
Laurie (28:42):
Yeah, and it's said that they gave up their places with
God or the Elohim, and aftermarriage to their human wives,
they later became known as thefallen ones, and it says they
(29:04):
taught mankind the art ofmetallurgy, husbandry, jewelry
making, and also gives theirnames as well.
And were these ancient textsdescribing beings descending
from the sky, slash the heavens,an actual race of ancient
astronauts?
So, right at some point inreligious history, they take on
the image of actors of evil anddestruction because they went
against God's rules and you know, possessing people's bodies and
(29:29):
wreaking havoc in the world,when in reality, I believe they
were just spacecraft pilots ofthe ancient skies.
And Genesis uses the term sonsof God, enoch calls them angels,
the children of heaven.
So there is a good bit ofconfusion as to who these beings
really were.
So there is a good bit ofconfusion as to who these beings
(29:50):
really were, but to the ancientpeople they were understood as
otherworldly, and over time,religious dogma divided them up
into two separate camps angelswho dwell in heaven and serve
God and angels who had been castout along with the devil
Lucifer.
And they become known as thefallen ones or the fallen angels
, and later they becameassociated with the ideas of
(30:13):
demons who eventually weretaught of as malevolent.
Joe (30:20):
Yeah, so the Aniaki, of course, are what we would call
the gods in the Sumerianpantheon.
We've referenced that manytimes.
What we would call the gods inthe Sumerian pantheon.
We've referenced that manytimes.
It's a word derived to mean thedescendants of Anu, who is the
chief deity of the Sumerians,and they can be understood as
the extraterrestrials from theplanet Nibiru.
Zachariah Sitchin explainedthat in his series, the Earth
(30:46):
Chronicles, of how that could besort of explained and
demonstrated through literarytradition and through
archaeological evidence.
And when we're talking aboutthe watchers, we really mean
those beings who are sort ofdirectly interacted with humans
and taught the knowledge bywhich to help us in advance as a
species, perhaps breaking fromthe hierarchy of their own world
(31:08):
.
They watched or guided ourprogress.
The offspring of them, withhuman females, were known as the
Nephilim, which is a bit of amysterious word.
It comes from the Hebrew asmeaning ones who have descended.
However, it has also beenloosely translated as meaning
giants, which we find in partsof the Old Testament Most
(31:30):
well-known is from Genesis 6-4,as they seem to be the reason
for God wanting to send theflood and if they are the ones
to whom the meaning of a demonhas become portrayed in Judaism
and Christianity, then it doesnot appear that God was totally
successful in eliminating them,because they're apparently still
(31:51):
around.
There are also references tobeings in the Sumerian and
Akkadian traditions, as a gigi,who were said to be like
servants to the Anunnaki, andthis is kind of muddying the
mythological waters even more,the mythological waters even
more.
They could possibly be adifferent extraterrestrial
species altogether, maybe oneswho rebelled and possibly are
(32:12):
the same as the Watchers, whohave a more benevolent, benign
approach to interaction withhumanity, actually adoring
humanity, at least the womenfolkright.
They of course also can becalled gods, angels, sons of
gods, titans, watchers andfallen ones.
They may all refer to the samething.
(32:33):
They may all refer to beingsfrom beyond this planet, and all
of them, according to the earlychurch fathers, would represent
nothing short of demonicentities.
They're often thought to changeform sometimes, and other
religions have them going fromone form to another, let's say
to something more cuter andcuddlier.
(32:54):
It is told in Celtic, gaelic,nordic and Germanic folklore of
how demons have the capabilityto metamorphosize into animals
like rabbits, dogs and birds andthat are more appealing to
human eyes.
So it's to deceive people intoallowing them to get close
enough to deliver curses uponthem or evilness upon them.
(33:16):
We even find Paul saying in 2Corinthians 11, 14, that Satan
can transform himself into anangel of light.
So this is a persistent detailthat we find in the
conceptualization of evilentities, that is, that they can
change into other things, oftenmuch better looking things that
are appealing to the human eye.
Laurie (33:38):
Yeah, and the reptilians are, as you would expect,
referred to as tall and scalythey don't look pretty at all
and sometimes having tails.
But the question is, how andwhy did this type of being come
to exist in our culture?
As being an ancient entity thatresides underground, Because
(34:02):
this is where demons aresupposed to come from,
underground, which would be, Iguess, where hell would be and
it probably originated from thetale of the serpent in the
Garden of Eden.
The reptilians are oftenportrayed, as you know,
grotesque creatures that prey onhuman flesh and thirst for
human blood.
Is it possible that thereptilians are among several
(34:27):
races of giants referenced inthe Bible?
I mean, they might be theRephium, a group known to have
occupied the land of Canaanbefore being defeated by the
Israelites.
However, according toDeuteronomy 2, 11 to 20, the
Rephium were also described asinhabitants of the underworld,
(34:47):
and this description bears astriking resemblance to that of
the reptilians.
Now, when we envision thedemonic realm, we frequently
picture demons with fearsomefaces and sharp teeth, poised to
attack and consume both bodyand soul.
Right, but the reptilians maybe similar in appearance to that
(35:09):
of frightful demons.
So Revelation 9, 1-7,.
It describes large, locust-likebeings with curved tails
resembling scorpions and teethlike lions which are meant to
torment humans for up to fivemonths and, according to the
passage, these beings werereleased from the abyss which is
(35:34):
in the bottom and down below,but this wasn't until after an
object had crashed into theearth.
So I mean, does this storyattempt to depict the reptilians
emerging from underground, oryou know, a capsule crashing
into the earth and you knowaliens coming out of it?
Joe (35:52):
Yeah, and that's kind of interesting that we have this
imagery of, of course, heavenbeing high in the sky and that's
where God and angels and youknow good spirits dwell, and
then you have under the ground,where there's a devil and the
demons and bad spirits.
It's just to show thepolarization, I think, of the
good being so far above and, ofcourse, the evil being below.
(36:16):
But the imagery may derive fromsomething like you're saying at
some point, the story of theseentities coming from trashes,
from underground, where it mightbe a lot of destruction, and
that imagery may have persistedin the prehistoric narrative of
told about gods who come fromthe abyss or come from the
(36:38):
ground.
That abyss may be nothing morethan impact points from where
they've landed from anotherworld out in space, landed from
out from another world, about inspace.
Now, when we you know talkingabout, you know, demons, you
know there was a victorian eraoccultist named helena blavatsky
and we've talked about herquite a bit and the notion that
(36:59):
she believed is that there'sthese demonic creatures, that
they're not in hell, underground, that they're walking around
everywhere.
They're called archons and theyare everywhere, often
shapeshifted into some otherform, and they were also thought
by the first century Gnostics.
They lived in places likeAlexandria, jerusalem and Edessa
(37:23):
.
They were thought to beresponsible for bringing about
all the villainy and turmoil inthe world and were actually held
in positions of leadership inthe world, and that's why the
world has so many problems andstill does.
They were thought to dwelleverywhere and there are
apocryphal and pseudiographicsources in the literature from
(37:43):
Judaism and Islam that tell ofhow King Solomon Again, this is
non-canon.
You're not going to find thisin the Bible.
These are stories that areapocryphal.
It tells of how King Solomonhad the power to control demons
and rule them and actually putthem to work, actually do
physical labor.
In one of the stories, kingSolomon tricked a demon named
(38:08):
Asmodeus into helping him buildthe temple in Jerusalem, tricked
him into doing the hard labor,and that is a story that
persists in esoteric Judaism andesoteric Islam.
Laurie (38:24):
Yeah, and we get a lot of reports and lots of stories
in reference to these archonsand they could be ancestors of
skinwalkers, maybe, or theycould be somewhat related to the
reptilians.
Demons are frequently portrayedwith reptilian characteristics,
(38:45):
even though they are regardedas spiritual, or you know
reptilian characteristics eventhough they are regarded as
spiritual, or you knowmalevolent entities at times.
But these beings, they oftenmanifest in monstrous forms,
such as lizards, snakes or evendragons.
And when we refer to someone asbeing possessed by a demon, it
(39:07):
implies that the individual isunder its control, much like a
puppet or a shell inhabited by ademon.
And in this scenario the demoneffectively takes over the
person's body and its faculties.
And a good movie to watch iscalled Nefarious and all it is.
It's just this prison inmatewho is controlled by a demon.
(39:27):
I forget the demon's name.
But then there's thispsychologist that comes into
interviewing and it's justamazing acting, how this guy is
able to transform from thisdemon to the actual person.
But that's what demon position?
If you believe in demonposition, if you watch that
movie, nefarious, that's exactlyhow I guess it is portrayed.
Joe (39:51):
Right and among the early Christians.
You know, this idea aboutdemons corresponded directly to
paganism.
So paganism and pagan beliefswere seen as works of the devil
and pagan gods were seen ashandiwork of or servants of the
devil.
And pagan gods were seen as ahandiwork of or servants of the
devil were and they were demons.
I mean, a pagan God was simplya demon in the minds of early
(40:14):
Christians and that traditionhas carried on into.
You know the stories of incubiand succubi who had to, like we
said, the ability to shapeshiftinto beautiful forms and can
seduce people into having sexwith them, to shapeshift into
beautiful forms and can seducepeople into having sex with them
.
(40:34):
This belief was quite prominentamong Puritan parishes in New
England during the time of theSalem Witch Trials.
That was only 300, some oddyears ago.
In that case young women werecondemned for having had sexual
intercourse with the devil orwith a demon, and a lot of times
this was attributed tounexplained pregnancies or false
pregnancies.
That was considered theevidence, the indicator that a
(40:58):
girl had sex with a demonicbeing.
And this whole idea harkensback to what we've said before
in the book of Enoch about howthe fallen angels and they're
the ones who again areidentified as demons.
What did they do?
Well, they lost it after womenwant to have sex with them,
against their will often.
So it could be that there is anextraterrestrial association of
(41:21):
demons archons, djins in MiddleEastern lore, wendigos in
Native American lore and otherevil beings, and that is the
encounters our ancestors mayhave had with alien species
sometime way in the distant past, and not just with the Anunnaki
, but with others like aliengreys and reptilians.
(41:43):
And they're even more enigmaticin some of their capabilities
and technological advancements.
Laurie (41:50):
Yeah, and like they say with the djinn, they just appear
and disappear out of nowhere,and they do, apparently, have
sex with some people who theyabduct and who they visit into
their rooms at night.
This may serve as the sourcematerial for spiritual figures
such as the devil and demons,which could be linked to stories
(42:12):
of ancient astronauts lateridentified as the Watchers or
the Fallen Ones.
As detailed in the Book ofEnoch, and notably in chapters 8
and 9, these beingsrelinquished their positions
among the Elohim the Hebrew termfor God in the plural, after
taking human wives.
They imparted this knowledge tohumanity in various fields,
(42:36):
which we said, including themiddleurgy, husbandry and the
jewelry making, which can beviewed as a transfer of advanced
technology.
The Book of Enoch also includestheir names, and it's a detail
that's absent in the Bible.
(42:58):
This presents a challenge to thetraditional understanding of
angels, and if they are indeedspirits, how could they
experience love or lust forwomen?
How could they engage inprocreation, women?
How could they engage inprocreation?
For this to be possible, theywould need to possess a physical
(43:18):
flesh and blood form, and manybelieve that the skinwalkers are
shape-shifting witches that arepart of the dark magic and come
here via portal openings insome special locations, portal
openings in some speciallocations, where a lot of them
(43:39):
are reported to be on Navajolands, and some people believe
that skinwalkers are merelylegends, similar to figures like
the boogeyman and werewolves.
At times, the descriptions ofskinwalkers seem to resemble
those of alien greys, you knowthe thin bodies with skin draped
over their bones, skin overskeleton, capable of moving
(44:00):
quickly, among other traits.
And I mean I don't think theyare the alien greys, though,
because in Navajo the phrase yeinaraushi means with with it.
He goes on all forth.
Joe (44:15):
So this doesn't match what we think of as an alien grey at
all well, just about everyculture has its legends and
tales of demons that roam theearth the banshees, and the
Celtic and Gaelic lore, sirensand Greek mythology, like we
said, the djinn of the Arabs,the golem of the Jews, the
(44:38):
boogeyman of the Anglo-Germanicpeoples and they're all variants
of that kind of the same thing,and there's no shortage of them
.
Even the shamans and witchdoctors, who are nothing more
than tribespeople, are oftensaid to be possessed by spirits
that are wicked and devilish,also than tribespeople are often
said to be possessed by spiritsthat are wicked and devilish
Also, they consider howpractices of black magic and
(44:58):
voodoo around in the Caribbeanislands.
So there's plenty of ghoststories that go around about
demons.
As far as the devil, you know,just like God, the devil being
the head demon, he's believed tobe transcendent, just like God,
meaning that he is not bound bythe restrictions of space and
time like we are.
And just as God is all-knowingand all-present, it seems, so is
(45:24):
he, at least to an extent, anddepending on which denomination
or faith that you affiliate with, he possesses a degree of power
that is comparable to that ofGod.
Some believe that he is subduedand defeated and confined to
hell, yet able to affect greatlythe affairs of humanity.
(45:46):
And then there are others whosay that he is not yet confined
there and therefore is free toroam about with his demons and
wreak havoc on everyone.
Either way, he is thought of asthe embodiment of all evil, at
least in the Abrahamic religions, and the one who has brought
about the fall of man all theway back in the beginning.
(46:06):
He's to blame for all of theproblems.
So most of the other names wefind with him is Lucifer.
It's like the devil Satan,beelzebub, azazel, asmodeus, and
these all mainly come fromlater usages.
Throughout the parts of theworld, of the Middle East and
Europe Now, lucifer isconsidered to be the antithesis
(46:28):
of God, who is of course allgood, who is of course all good.
Now it gets kind of esotericwhen we talk about the dogma,
the contradiction between Godand the devil.
We'll just consider hispersonages in relation to his
name, lucifer.
Like the name of Yahweh,lucifer is derived from ancient
(46:51):
linguistics.
The Bible is fairly ambiguouson the personification and the
description of the devil.
His character really isn'tdeveloped until a little more
well in the Septuagint.
It talks a little more abouthis character, but most of our
understanding of him comes morefrom church teaching and
portrayals of things like youknow, paradise Lost by John
(47:14):
Milton, which was written in the17th century.
So what is he really?
Well, perhaps the image we haveof a Lucifer goes back to when
humanity had encountered, youknow, the Anunnaki, the aliens.
Laurie (47:27):
But Lucifer is.
He's often regarded by millionsas the ultimate tempter of
mankind.
He's responsible for bringingsin into the hearts of
individuals.
Yet if Lucifer was created byGod, then who is believed to be
the creator of all?
And if he once dwelled inheaven, how could this being
(47:47):
become consumed by pride andjealousy?
Now, what could drive him toinstigate a rebellion in a
divine, holy, perfect andspiritual realm such as heaven?
And this inquiry reflects theancient writers' interpretations
of the scriptural narrativesurrounding the conflict of good
versus evil.
However, let's explore this froma different perspective the
(48:11):
ancient alien perspective.
So envision an advanced aliencivilization arriving on Earth
hundreds of thousands of yearsago, sharing a resemblance with
modern humans, the Homo sapiens,in both appearance and behavior
, and they possessed atechnology to embark on
interstellar missions to ourplanet.
And ultimately they intervenewith the course of human
(48:34):
evolution.
And these extraterrestrialbeings lived, they walked and
communicated, they dined andimparted knowledge to our
primitive ancestors aboutscience, astronomy, agriculture
and even religion, just like wehad talked about from the Book
of Enoch, and what the Watchers,the angels, had done there with
humans.
So, like a scene from a sciencefiction film intergalactic
(48:58):
spaceships engaged in dramaticbattles overhead, you know,
complete with laser fire,full-time torpedoes.
It was during these epicconflicts that Earth, a newly
discovered planet which was richwith life and precious metals
you metals became the center ofattention.
A civilization of these giantextraterrestrials exploits a
(49:20):
planet for mining operations andamong them, one individual
seeks to gain sole control andbecome the new supreme commander
.
He rallies a substantialfollowing in attempt to
overthrow the current leadership, but, however, his coup d'etat
(49:41):
ultimately fails, leading to hisbanishment, along with his
supporters, from theorganizational hierarchy.
They then crash land on theplanet's surface, the being
Earth, and this event may lie atthe heart of the ancient
narratives about a cosmic warwhich could have misinterpreted
(50:02):
the story of Lucifer and hisfallen angels from their
memories, with their lexicons,to a point where, you know, a
space battle taking place in thesky has become, you know,
metamorphosed into a spiritualone taking place in the heavens
(50:23):
or from heaven, and this story,along with others in the Bible,
has been repeated and editedover and over again to fit the
narrative of the religion overand over again to fit the
narrative of the religion, thispattern of storytelling that
you're talking about.
Joe (50:39):
It is prevalent in various mythologies where there's this
animosity among the gods, andit's very apparent.
So the notion of a principaldeity acting as a primary
antagonist to a supreme deity isa recurring theme in many
religions, and this concept isresonated with people in ancient
(51:00):
times as they perhaps witnessconflicts going on among humans,
leading them to naturallyexpect a similar kind of rivalry
and discord among the gods.
So belief in the supernaturaland things that are otherworldly
has always permeated the mindsof people and to where it is, a
sublimated and unconsciousprocess that fulfills our, our
(51:21):
tendency, almost like a geneticdisposition, to believe in
something beyond the here andnow.
Humans are sort of born to wantto believe in things that they
haven't seen for themselves, butthey have a drive, a need, need
for faith, if you will.
Laurie (51:36):
So you know the word Lucifer.
It comes from the Latin lucumferi, which is bringer of light.
We see in Isaiah 14, 12, and 14, it says how you have fallen
from heaven, morning star, sonof the dawn, you have been cast
down to earth.
We know that the prophet istalking about Hila.
He's a Babylonian king and sonof a Shahar Shahar means God of
(52:01):
dawn in Ugaritic and he has abrother, shalem, which means God
of dust, and they are both bornof El.
So this is who Isaiah istalking about.
He's not talking about thedevil Lucifer.
Saint Jerome was a priest wholived between 347 to 420 AD.
(52:23):
He mistook the metaphor in thebook of Isaiah when writing the
Vulgate, the Latin translationof the Bible, and he fabricated
Lucifer as being the morningstar and a disobedient angel,
based on the vile reputation ofa heretic named Lucifer
Calamarius of Sardinia.
(52:44):
And the identity of thisindividual is unmistakably
associated with various textualredactions of the scriptures
linked to figures such as thedevil, satan, the deceiver and
the prince of darkness.
It is important to recognizethat the book of Isaiah was
written between 700 and 686 BC,long before any biblical
(53:06):
manuscripts were translated intoLatin, so this clearly
indicates that the term Luciferwas introduced much later,
meaning the original text didnot identify an antagonist named
Lucifer or Satan.
So, consequently, the mythssurrounding this figure are
undoubtedly rooted in othercharacters, most likely from
(53:28):
Mesopotamian cultures, and thebook of Revelation describes how
Lucifer's pride and arroganceemerged when he resided in
heaven, leading to his eventualfall.
Our ancestors, however, hadlimited knowledge and vocabulary
to explain such phenomena, andwhen they witnessed alien
spacecraft descending from thesky, they interpreted these
(53:49):
sightings through the lens oftheir own belief, telling
stories of gods or angels comingdown from the heavens.
Lacking a conceptual frameworkfor beings from other planets or
the advanced technology theyobserved, they struggled to
articulate what they saw.
As a result, the myths passeddown through generations reflect
(54:12):
these encounters using thelanguage and ideas available to
them at the time.
Joe (54:18):
Well, I mentioned the Gnostics of the second century
AD, and they actually believedthat the God of the Bible, who
we would know as the Creator,was a character called
Yaldabaoth, and that he was notthe true God.
That would have been a much moresuperior and a much more
(54:39):
abstract and more remote God,much, much more remote.
And while Yaldabaoth is notconventionally regarded as the
devil, he displays certaintraits that are reminiscent of
Lucifer, including an excessivesense of pride and arrogance
that prevents him fromrecognizing any existence of a
higher power.
(55:00):
So Yaldabaoth perceives himselfas the true God, an actual
creator, despite not fulfillingthat role, and remains oblivious
to the presence of a superiordeity who created even more to
include himself.
That superior god createdYaldabaoth, who created the
(55:20):
known universe that we see.
So this megalomania,accompanied by vengefulness and
pettiness and self-servingbehavior, underscores his lack
of divine perfection.
Consequently, the inherentflaws within the physical realm
of our existence can beattributed to Yaldabaoth, who is
(55:42):
a flawed creator of earth,rather than a true God, who is
perfection.
So they attributed theimperfection of our world to an
imperfect creator, who is notthe true perfect God of our
world, to an imperfect creator,who is not the true perfect god.
obviously, this was rejected asuh hearsay I hear a say by the
early christians um, and it washardly consistent in the beliefs
(56:03):
back then about the forces ofgood and evil and it wasn't
consistent with the ideas aboutgod and the devil, so it was
completely rejected.
Laurie (56:11):
and as they were rejected as heretics, Of course,
there is also a parallel inSumerian mythology with a
Lucifer-like rebellion in thestory of Alalu, who becomes
dethroned by Anu as the king ofNibiru.
After suffering defeat in asignificant battle, alalu found
himself ostracized by his peersand had no choice but to flee
(56:35):
his own planet, nibiru, insearch of refuge on Earth.
Unfortunately, during hisjourney, his spacecraft
encountered severe difficultiesand ultimately crashed,
rendering him unconscious uponimpact.
And when he finally regainedconsciousness, alilu exited his
damaged vessel to survey hissurroundings and, to his
(56:58):
astonishment, he discovered aremarkable wealth of gold
scattered across the landscape,glimmering in the sunlight.
Recognizing that the gold couldplay a crucial role in
addressing the dire situationfacing Nibiru Addressing the
(57:20):
dire situation facing Nibiru,specifically the urgent need to
restore and replenish itsdeterring atmosphere, he felt
compelled to act.
And, with a sense ofresponsibility for his planet's
survival, alilu initiatedcommunication with his homeworld
.
He carefully sent back thecoordinates of Earth's location,
hoping to inform his fellowNibirians of the precious
resources available and thepotential for salvation through
(57:41):
the wealth he had found.
This discovery marked thebeginning of a new hissing sound
pierced the tranquil air and itstartled him.
(58:03):
He lifted his gaze and therebefore him lay a serpent, a
snake, its scales shimmeringlike jewels in the dappled
sunlight, and it was a creaturehe had never encountered before,
his scales shimmering likejewels in the dappled sunlight.
And it was a creature he hadnever encountered before, so it
was unfamiliar and it wasmenacing.
And fear gripped him and,without thinking, he raised his
(58:26):
weapon and struck swiftly,ending the creature's life in
this moment, life in this moment.
And so in this moment we cantrace a profound connection
between the divine and theserpent, a relationship echoed
in countless stories throughouttime, notably in the tale of the
(58:46):
fall of the Garden of Eden,where a dramatic conflict
unfolds between these twoancient forces, and you can read
about this story in the LostBook of Enki by Zechariah
Sitchin.
Joe (58:55):
Yeah, so what this tells us is there quite a few
alternative perspectives on themythology of the creation of the
earth and indeed the wholeuniverse and also the origin of
good and evil.
Judeo-christianity is being oneof them.
There are many of them thatexist in a similar sort of style
(59:17):
, sort of format, but obviouslythe characters and a lot of the
backdrop is a little bitdifferent.
Like Enki is the son of Anu andthe half-brother of Enlil, is
frequently mischaracterized asthe serpent due to his role in
providing wisdom to humanity.
In that mythology, in thatnarrative you were talking about
(59:38):
Laurie the serpent tempts Eve.
In the story we have in theBible, it tempts Eve to eat from
the tree of knowledge, whichleads the authors of Genesis to
depict the serpent as malevolentin the Garden of Eden narrative
that they wrote.
This reflects a notablehostility that Enlil harbors
(01:00:01):
toward Enki.
Importantly, enki later deviseda plan to save humanity from
the flood which was ordered byAnu and Enlil wanting to wipe
out humanity.
Enki wants to save humanity andacts against their plan, as
well as the other members of theAnunnaki, and he's the one who
(01:00:25):
warned Ziasudra, who is aka Noah, to build a boat in the hopes
of sparing humanity'sannihilation.
Laurie (01:00:35):
Yeah, so in these Sumerian texts, enki was lord
over the abyss.
The term abyss should not beunderstood in the conventional
context of hell.
It actually refers to thesouthern hemisphere of the earth
known as the lower world,particularly within the Abzu,
where the deity Enki resides.
(01:00:55):
The Apsu is characterized notby darkness but by brightness
and purity and abundance ofwater resources, and Enki is
recognized as the lord of manywaters inhabiting the central
region of the Apsu in the lowerworld, which corresponds to, I
think, probably aroundpresent-day South Africa.
Joe (01:01:17):
Well, it's also important to note in these imperative
literary depictions of the storyof the fall, the serpent is not
directly identified as Satan.
It is inferred from textualhermeneutics that being the
wisest and the crappiest ofpreachers in the garden and that
(01:01:37):
he was using his knowledge totrick Eve and then Adam into
eating the fruit that wasforbidden by God.
That he must be the devil.
But it doesn't say directly.
It's inferred through laterreadings in the scriptures.
So it's more or less assumedthat the serpent was behaving
(01:02:00):
this way as the devil is ashapeshifter, or else he's being
used as an instrument by Satan.
I mean the very fact that he'sable to talk to Eve in the story
must mean evil is afoot right?
You know, Carl Jung passionatelystudied the varied symbolism
concerning serpents and Luciferand evil and wisdom.
He was actually almost obsessedwith the psychological
(01:02:21):
relationship among all those and, using somewhat illusory
methods, he explained that theirmeanings are found deeply
hidden in the images of ourdeepest psyches, such that they
relate to God and the devil,angels and demons and good and
evil, and they representarchetypes that have become
(01:02:44):
manifested in the way of dreams,visions and myths that stem
from a collective memory that weall inherit as part of our
mental processes.
We have an innate andinstinctual and somewhat
subconscious drive to connectwith what our ancestors had
experienced and to connect withwhat we believe is the spiritual
.
So, with all the culturesaround the world and with all
(01:03:06):
their complex and diversemythologies, is it possible that
there is going to bemisunderstanding and
misinterpretation about thingslike spiritual dogma and demons?
We all know for a fact thatthat is the case.
Therefore, it could also be thecase that faith and scriptures
in this context, are ways tosatisfy that drive and that they
(01:03:29):
unveil these images in ourminds of a time long, long ago
when humanity was in contactwith nothing other than
extraterrestrial beings.
So, as always, you, theaudience, must decide for
yourselves, and that will wrapit.
Laurie (01:03:46):
Yeah, we want to thank all of you for joining us once
again.
Let us know your thoughts onthis topic by sending us a
message via our website, alientalk podcast dot com, our
Facebook page or on our Facebookmessenger.
We would love to hear from youand hear your thoughts.
Joe (01:04:07):
Yeah, we sure would, and next time we hope to bring you
some of the points brought fromLuis Elizondo conference that we
attended.
We'd hope to do that next month, in December.
There were some things thatwere particularly noteworthy and
that were brought up in how weas ordinary people are to fully
understand unidentified aerialphenomena.
(01:04:30):
He did so both by giving factsand by illustrating some common
misconceptions about UAPs andUFOs.
So we look forward to that.
Until then, stay curious.
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Welcome to Bookmarked by Reeseās Book Club ā the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. Youāre not just listening ā youāre part of the conversation.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.