October 4, 2025 • 59 mins
A fast, green-tinged visitor just knifed into our skies—and it isn’t playing by the usual comet rules. We’re talking about 3I Atlas, the third confirmed interstellar object on a hyperbolic path through our solar system, and it’s stirring up everything from sober comet science to bold claims of cloaked spacecraft. We dig into the data you can hang your hat on—eccentricity, non‑gravitational acceleration, color shifts, and composition—and the places where the story goes fuzzy, including that eyebrow‑raising course change and unusual outgassing profile.
From Oumuamua’s puzzling push to Borisov’s classic cometary coma, we chart how each interstellar visitor has tested what we think we know. Avi Loeb’s solar sail hypothesis gets a fresh look beside mainstream models of outgassing, radiation pressure, and gravitational assists. We also explore why the Oort Cloud remains an inference rather than a portrait, how spectroscopy shapes consensus, and where the limits of current telescopes leave room for speculation without surrendering rigor. Along the way, we trace the human side of uncertainty: how trust, skepticism, and media incentives shape public belief when evidence is partial.
If cosmic mysteries spark your imagination, you’ll appreciate the wider lens too—how ancient imagery like Wormwood echoes modern impact science, why artists painted “piloted stars,” and what a real first contact would demand from our institutions. No sensationalism, just a clear walk through the strongest evidence, the smartest counterpoints, and the open questions worth watching as Atlas swings past the Sun.
Enjoy the ride, then tell us what you think: comet, probe, or something we haven’t named yet? If this conversation got you thinking, follow, share with a curious friend. Also, leave a review to help more listeners find the show.
"Space Journey" by Geoff Harvey
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joe (01:01):
Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining us on Alien Talk
Podcast.
Today we're back after a prettylengthy hiatus.
Last time we were with you waslate August, I think.
So we'll start by saying it isgood to return to the show and
to share with you ourexploration and discussion of
pertinent topics that have beensparking interest within the
fields of ufology andextraterrestrial studies.
(01:22):
Now one that has been in theheadlines quite a bit over the
past few months is the discoveryof an interstellar object
within our solar system.
It is said to be interstellar,meaning it has a point of origin
that many astronomers believeis from beyond the region of
space in which our sun and itsplanets are situated.
(01:42):
So, it seems to be traversingthe space that spans the
distance, the very vast distancefrom one star system to another.
It is called 3I- Atlas and wasdetected just this past July at
the Rio Hurtado Observatory inChile and the Palomer
Observatory in San Diego, partof a network overseen by NASA
(02:05):
through Cal-Tech, and Laurie, Itis actually the third of such
interstellar objects to enterour solar system since 2017.
Laurie (02:15):
Laurie
And uh the first one wasOumuamua, technically called
1I-Oumuamua, with the letter Iused to designate it as
interstellar.
And we discussed that one acouple years now, maybe a few
years ago.
And the name is derived fromthe Hawaiian word for scout, and
(02:35):
it was discovered through theHaleakalala Observatory in
Hawaii.
And the second one was two-eyedBorisov in uh August of 2019,
which was named after theamateur astronomer in Russia,
Gennaidy Borizov, who was the uhfirst to observe it.
Unlike Oumuamua, which had thecharacteristics of an asteroid,
(02:59):
Borizov was surrounded by alarge orb of dust and gas.
We call it a coma, which madeit more like a comet.
Jo (03:08):
Joe
However, 3I-Atlas is similar toBorisov and that it behaves
like a comet.
And like the other two, thisone has been closely analyzed by
both the Hubble and Webb SpaceTelescopes to obtain more
accurate estimates of its sizeand composition.
It has been calculated thatAtlas is 3.5 miles long and
(03:31):
about a mile wide, making it bigenough to cause a severe
catastrophe if it were to impactEarth.
Remember, the asteroid thatwiped out the dinosaurs 66
million years ago was thought tohave been about six miles in
diameter.
So, this is roughly half thatsize, and it would definitely
cause much devastation if itwere to impact our planet.
Fortunately, it seems now theclosest it will come to us is
(03:54):
about 150 million miles, andthat'll occur sometime near the
end of this year, assuming nochange is on its course.
Laurie (04:04):
Laurie
Now, now there has been uh somedebate in academic forums about
you know what 3i Atlas mightreally be, as it is not behaving
like a regular comet, as theysay, at least according to some
calculations.
So some aspects of it aresignificantly different, and
this has led some to reassesswhat we understand about
(04:28):
near-Earth orbits.
While most astronomersconsidered three eye atlas to be
indeed a comet that wanderedinto the inner solar system from
interstellar space, a small yetvocal minority, including the
renowned Israeli physicist SaviLoeb, entertains the possibility
that it is not a naturalcelestial body at all, but
(04:51):
perhaps one of the of uh alienorigin.
And if not a travelingspacecraft, then it is possibly
some drifting piece of spacejump from another world.
But this divergence and in uhinterpretation raises questions
not only about what three eyeAtlas truly is, but also about
(05:11):
how we as a society decide whatto believe when faced with the
limits of our own perception andknowledge.
So consider how much space junkwe have jettisoned above the
earth as well as above the moonand other planets.
There are literally tons ofstuff floating around up there,
things ranging in size from abolt to a school bus.
(05:33):
So suppose we ditch rocketstages and satellites and
component modules and panels inthe course of our space
exploration.
In that case, it's not toounexpected that an
extraterrestrial civilizationwould also need to release
excess and unneeded materialthat would, you know, ditch for
(05:54):
essentially eternity.
Jo (05:55):
Joe
they would have even more spacejunk than we do because they
would just have more operationsand applications in space than
we do, and we have a lot, justour own human race here on
planet Earth, and we have, likeyou said, tons of material up
there.
A civilization that has beenembarking on space missions for
(06:18):
perhaps centuries.
Just imagine how much more sothey would have drifting around.
So we know that about meteors,asteroids, and comets.
Those are the three primarycelestial bodies that orbit the
sun and can become near-Earthobjects if they come into view
in the night sky.
And three eye atlas reallydoesn't fit into the categories
(06:41):
these three uh objects becausethey aren't originating in
regions of space whereastronomers would expect them
to.
Amoa Moa and Borisov alsodidn't.
And it's the name of this threeeye atlas is after the acronym
for asteroid terrestrial impactlast alert system.
That's NASA's program fordetecting and surveying
(07:04):
near-Earth objects to assess thepotential for planetary impact.
It was started back in 2015.
Now, what makes astronomersbelieve atlas is interstellar is
because of what is called ahyperbolic trajectory.
One of the characteristics usedin orbital mechanics to
describe motion is somethingcalled eccentricity, and that is
(07:25):
the ratio of how two celestialbodies deviate from one another
in a circular orbit.
So an eccentricity of zero is aperfect circle, and any value
between zero and one describesan ellipse.
A value of one is a parabola,and something greater than one
is a hyperbola.
The eccentricity of a Oumuamuawas estimated to be 1.12,
(07:48):
supposedly the highest numberever assigned by NASA's Jet
Propulsion Laboratory.
Borisov was 3.4.
3I- Atlas is at 6.3.
This means it has a very curvedpath to make it hyperbolic, and
that it really doesn't seem tobe orbiting our sun, but instead
is more like shooting throughthe solar system from some other
(08:10):
point originating beyond oursolar system, some other point
in the galaxy.
So we must ask, why would it bean alien craft?
La (08:20):
Laurie
are accelerations that havebaffled experts because they
aren't following mathematicalpredictions in their orbit
around the sun.
So it appears to be speeding upand slowing down in ways that
are pretty much unpredictable.
So the majority of astronomersand planetary scientists view
(08:43):
3I-Atlas as a comet based on itsobserved trajectory appearance
and its behavior.
Scientific consensus forms notout of dogma, but through the
careful accumulation ofevidence, the spectroscopic
data, orbital patterns, andphotometric studies, all of
which so far align with ourunderstanding of natural comets.
(09:05):
These icy bodies, remnants ofsolar system formation, are
known to enter the inner solarsystem on unusual trajectories,
sometimes even from interstellarspace.
As of right now, it isestimated to be 233 million
miles from Earth, and afterOctober 29th, it will reach its
(09:28):
uh its perihelion, its closestpoint to the sun, and it won't
be visible at all until afterNovember 9th, and will be
closest to the Earth on December19th.
However, some alternativetheorists highlight the
statistically uh unusualapproach, vectors of Oumuamua,
(09:50):
Borizov, and now 3I- Atlas,suggesting that their
trajectories are not random andmay reflect an entered uh an
intentional or a designedorigin.
Now, Avi Loeb and a handful ofother scientists suggest that
not all interstellar visitorscan be easily explained away by
natural origins.
(10:10):
So Loeb famously pointed thatOumuamua, our first confirmed
interstellar object observedback in 2017, exhibited
anomalies, a lack of outgassing,unusual acceleration, and a
trajectory inconsistent withtypical comets or asteroids.
In his book, Extraterrestrial,Loeb speculated it could be an
(10:31):
alien probe or a piece of alientechnology.
So can you imagine what oursociety would be like right now
if NASA or the Pentagon had toldus back in October 2017 that
Oumuamua was an alien spacecraftand would be arriving on our
planet in six months?
Joe (10:49):
Joe
It could be that it would it'ssomething that would bring all
the world together to deal withwhat would be seen as a complete
change in the course of humanhistory, something that would
unite us all in our commonalityas a human species.
We'd like to believe that.
However, there is asignificant, substantial risk
that it would instill a lot ofpanic and chaos, and
(11:12):
unfortunately, even furtherdivision.
I mean, the pandemic didn'tbring humanity together very
well in terms of the way we seeourselves within the grand
scheme of things.
So I don't know if a confirmedalien arrival here on earth
would make us respond anydifferently.
I suppose it could go eitherway, just depending on the
specific circumstances of all ofit.
(11:34):
So, Oumuamua and Borisov areyou know now moving further and
further away from our solarsystem.
And from what we've learned,they seem more likely than not
to be natural objects.
And granted, we never got anygood close information, no close
up data to really kind of makethat assessment or get a good
look at it.
La (11:55):
Laurie
gifts that they've uh put out,but to show the how close in
proximity it came.
But you know, these claims,however, often rest on
interpretations of limited dataand rely on hypothetical motives
or technologies.
(12:15):
Uh for the public, then thenature of three eye atlas and
any cosmic visitor is largelyinaccessible, right?
Most do not have powerfultelescopes or advanced degrees
in astrophysics.
We are we are compelled totrust uh consensus of experts or
in moments of skepticism toseek out other interpretations.
(12:37):
So the problem arises whenevidence is ambiguous or when
extraordinary claims are madewithout exceptional evidence.
So we have to choose who tobelieve.
Do we believe NASA/slashgovernment or do we believe the
Harvard professors and otherslike them?
So, in an article published byUnion Rail uh Rail on September
(13:00):
19, 2025, Laura by O'Laura M,she discusses the intriguing
claims of 20 scientistsregarding 3I- Atlas.
They suggest that it couldactually be a spacecraft that is
cloaked by its unusualtrajectory and composition.
Avi Loeb argues that thevariations in its acceleration
(13:23):
might indicate a controlledmovement, implying that an
intelligent entity could pilotit.
Additionally, some scientistspropose that hidden probes might
be traveling within naturalcomets, serving as a means of uh
transportation.
So like other comets that havevisited may have also had these
probes inside of them.
Joe (13:43):
Right, and to kind of you know illustrate what you're
talking about.
This would be like a aspacecraft that is covered by
what looks like a naturalobject.
So it it's you know aconstructed, you know, uh craft,
but it's not perceived ordetected as such.
Uh it's able to make adeception upon visual and
(14:06):
analytical you know data thatmake it look like it is just a
comet when really it's a craft,kind of like a spacecraft
within an actual object, or atleast that's how it's projecting
itself to look to any kind ofsensors or uh telescopes.
And this kind of reminds me ofa a very fascinating painting.
It's called the crucifixionfresco and it dates back to
(14:28):
1350, and it's located in theViskoski Cani Monastery in
Kosovo over in Serbia.
And in the right top rightcorner of this fresco, there is
a fig figure seated inside whatis seems to be a star, giving
the impression that this beingis piloting this star.
(14:49):
And on the left side of thisfresco is another figure who
seems to be piloting what lookslike a comet. So, these are you
know two human figures, orthey're clearly human figures
inside what look like to becomets.
So this is kind of like theidea we're trying to present
here is that the cometsthemselves are being steered.
(15:11):
The comets are the spacecrafts,at least that's how it's being
perceived by our detection.
Laurie (15:18):
Yeah, and it's in if you take a take the picture and
zoom in on a picture of3I-Atlas, it's almost the exact
same form as that guy you'retalking about in that inside
that comet-looking painting.
So it certainly raises someinteresting questions.
I mean, could it be that peoplefrom the medieval period were
(15:40):
trying to how you know howbeing can travel or they're
trying to explain how a beingcan travel and come to Earth in
comet-like vessels?
When often, well, you know, weoften see similar depictions in
Renaissance artwork.
Just as ancient Biblicalwriters lacked the vocabulary to
explain their observations, sotoo did these artists
(16:03):
incorporate their understandingof unknown flying objects into
their paintings.
So fascinating, isn't it?
Joe (16:10):
Joe
And as of September 26th,experts have noted that the
behavior of three eye atlas doesnot match that of other comets
they've tracked in the past.
It's also the fastest one thatthey've seen so far.
It has a speed of 130,000 milesper hour.
With it being in a hyperbolicorbit, it is not gravitationally
(16:30):
tethered to the sun.
So several intriguing questionsare being raised, and one of
them is about its composition.
There's a high presence ofnickel and a lower presence of
iron, which is not typical ofthe metallic composition of
comets.
So it's also emitting morecarbon dioxide and uh like CO2
(16:52):
and OH.
OH is hydroxide.
It's emitting more of those uhsubstances than water.
And it's even spectroscopicallyshifted color, going from red
hue to green hue.
This could indicate changes invelocity.
And the latest buzz is that ithas dramatically altered its
course.
This has led astrophysicists tospeculate that it is of
(17:13):
unnatural origin, given this17-degree trajectory change in a
48-hour time frame, which issignificant.
And this has promptedintensified monitoring by Jet
Propulsion Laboratory.
So, despite these concerns,some argue that the trajectory
adjustments could actually bethe result of outgassing from a
comet, you know, changes ingravitational pull as it's going
(17:37):
by the planets.
And but sometimes, you know, Iwonder about you know Secretary
of Defense Pete Hegseth.
Uh, he just recently had thisunprecedented meeting in
Quantico, Virginia, with all 800the military's top brass, all
the 06s and above.
And uh that is rather unusual.
I never heard of a a meetinglike that where the Secretary of
(17:59):
Defense calls all the generalsand all the admirals into a
meeting in Quantico.
So it makes you wonder, huh?
Laurie (18:08):
Laurie
Well, you know, a lot of peoplethink, well, it's because World
War III is about to start, andbecause we're we have our hands
in, you know, in the dealingswith the Venezuela now and the
drug cartels and everythingthat's going on over in the
Middle East and then Russia andin uh Ukraine and you know, so
which yeah, could be, but italso could be that there's
(18:31):
something about through threeeye atlas that they know that
we, the public, do not know.
And with you talking about thatCO2 and all that stuff, like I
mean, these uh these unusualcharacteristics suggest that
three eye atlas may have anindustrial, a artificial origin
rather than being a naturalcomet.
(18:52):
So and you know, producing theyou know, you know, releasing
the uh the middle through youknow photochemical processes as
it approaches the sun.
So and now the speed I as it asit's coming towards Mars, I
think they said now it's like200,000 miles per hour.
So it's weird how it'saccelerating that that much.
(19:14):
So but I've been uh you knowpondering all this too.
So look, we're not definitelysaying that three i Atlas is an
alien ship.
I mean, we just don't know forsure, but we can't entertain the
possibility.
So remember the firstinterstellar visitor was Omo
Moa, which that translates toscout.
(19:36):
So it makes sense to send thefirst one as a scout to gather
you know reconnaissance photos,and then came the uh the the
follow-up probe, which isBorizov, for a closer look.
And as they say, the thirdtime's a charm, right?
So you can see how the timingof the first two allowed them to
(19:57):
fly in close proximity to ourplanet.
So how could that be just acoincidence, you know, and for
it to come in, meet the planet,meet Earth at its just as it's
approaching, it's like it'staking pictures and then it
takes back off into space.
Same thing with the second one,Borizov.
It comes in and does like itkind of meets Earth, doesn't hit
(20:19):
it, but rides alongside of itfor a little bit of a of a
distance, Earth goes to the leftand then hit this thing goes
off to the right.
It's it's amazing.
So, you know, but for the sakeof argument, if they indeed are
intelligently designed, youknow, does that mean that we
might be on the brink of ourmodern day first contact?
(20:41):
Or you know, maybe the muchanticipated second coming of
Christ?
Joe (20:46):
Yeah, that's an intriguing idea to consider.
Atlas is predicted to reach usaround December 19th, which
coincidentally aligns closelywith the time historically
associated with the Star ofBethlehem.
And while we don't know theexact date of Christ's birth,
it's kind of interesting to notethat it has been nearly 2,000
years since that time, and nowthis comet is making its
(21:08):
appearance around ourcivilization when we've had
recognized it as significant.
We identify what this means asan interstellar object.
And additionally, there arehistorical records that indicate
that, you know, the like theChinese, they've documented a
comet around 5 AD.
So did Josephus, the Jewishhistorian.
(21:30):
He mentioned a comet thatreportedly circled the earth for
an entire year, and this is allaround the time of Christ,
around the first century.
And this raises fascinatingquestions about the
intersections between astronomyand our historical narratives.
Laurie (21:45):
Yeah, and we're not on here to give out these, you
know, the the rapture is goingto take place like tomorrow.
I rolled my eyes and I had acringe moment when started
seeing these posts on socialmedia.
The rapture is going to occurSeptember 23rd, and that's it.
Joe (22:03):
Joe
La (22:04):
Laurie
We've been hearing about theend times and the rapture since
we were kids.
So, but maybe the gods, maybethe gods of our earthy religions
are returning to uh to restoreorder to our civilization and
to, as the Bible says, I guess,separate the chaffe from the
wheat, so to speak.
So, I mean, who is going to beconsidered good and who is going
(22:27):
to be considered evil?
I mean, honestly, I don'tbelieve those who riot and cause
anarchy uh by going against theestablished law and order, the
the rule of uh of law, which theuh ancient gods, if they really
are ancient alien beings, youknow, they implemented these
laws for the good of society.
(22:47):
So, so listen carefully to thisscripture verse, though, and
makes you wonder if we are inthe in times in II Timothy 3:
1- 5 and think about what ishappening in our society today.
So it says, but know this thatin the last days perilous times
will come, for men will belovers of themselves, lovers of
(23:08):
money, boasters, proud,blasphemers, disobedient to
parents, unthankful, unholy,unloving, unforgiving,
slanderers, withoutself-control, brutal, despisers
of good, traitors, headstrong,haughty, lovers of pressure,
lovers of pleasure rather thanlovers of God.
(23:30):
Now, by reading that, seeingthe comments, and watching the
videos produced on social mediatoday, you can see all of these
things listed in the scripturesunfolding.
You can see you can see allthis stuff unfolding in in from
people, you know, like the uhthe rioters, the Antifa people,
(23:51):
all of that.
You can see all of this stuffcoming out.
Joe (23:55):
Joe
And so we asked the questionwhat does this have to do with
the arrival of 3I-Atlas?
Well, probably nothing.
Uh we don't know.
We you know, it's we're notsaying that there is any
correlation.
We're just that you know, thewe're obviously uh uh noticing
that our times are perilous, andyou know, as described in
(24:16):
biblical prophecy, which youknow talks about the end times
being chaotic and you knowdreadful, and then that's been
the situation of humanity sincethe beginning of time.
We have always been in thisstate.
Actually, we we may haveimproved a little bit in this
state, given the way things havebeen in past centuries.
Certainly, I think our time nowis I think I'd I would rather
(24:39):
be living now than in the FrenchRevolution, you know, something
like that, or during a time ofWorld War I and World War II.
But in terms of how three Iatlas might connect, uh, you
know, it's the coincidence ofyou know having an interstellar
object arrive in our solarsystem, the one of three within
the last you know, ten years.
And this makes me want to talkabout the prevailing scientific
(25:03):
understanding about the natureand origin of comets and
asteroids.
So there are two regions beyondwhat is called the heliopause
of our solar system, which isbeyond Pluto, very, very far
away.
And the one region is calledthe Kuiper belt, which is uh
kind of like the asteroid beltbetween Mars and Jupiter, but
it's much more expansive wheremeteors are thought to move in a
(25:26):
very slow orbit, or I shouldsay asteroids are moving in a
very slow orbit, and it's aboutsix billion miles away.
And meteors are actually thedebris pieces that have blown
off of comets, and of course,some of them drift close to
Earth and hit the atmosphere andare seen as shooting stars at
night at nighttime.
The ones that reach the surfaceare called meteorites.
(25:47):
Now, asteroids are larger andcould be remnants of other
celestial bodies that brokeapart after the formation of the
protoplanets.
The vast majority of them arestill in the asteroid belt
between Mars and Jupiter, butthere are you know things called
Trojan asteroids that share anorbit with the planet and known
in celestial mechanics asLagrange points.
(26:07):
And then the ones that do comeclose to Earth are given a
special name of Apolloasteroids.
Now there is another region outthere called the Oort Cloud.
Again, these have not beenreally seen, but even you know
theorized.
And it's supposedly the OortCloud is even further away than
the Kuiper belt.
That's about 1.7 trillion milesaway, and this is where comets
(26:28):
are thought to originate.
And unlike asteroids andmeteors, which are made of rocks
and metals like iron andnickel, comets are also
comprised of ice and gas aswell.
Gases like nitrogen, hydrogen,carbon dioxide, methane, and
water vapor.
And there's this nucleus thatemits dust from what is called
the coma.
Now the Oort cloud is not somuch a disk or a belt, but more
(26:52):
like a sphere that encapsulatesthe solar system.
So comets orbit the sun fromjust about every angle
imaginable, and this material isessentially considered to be
debris floating around in thesolar system since the beginning
of the formation, some five, Ishould say some 15 billion years
ago.
And the sizes range fromgranules of sand to rocks and
(27:15):
some things as big as the entirecontinent of Europe.
Some of them are very large,some of them very small.
Lau (27:21):
Laurie
described is what we know todayas scientific fact.
Now, we know precisely whatthese things are because of our
scientific breakthroughs andknowledge.
You know, back in ancienttimes, these objects were all
interpreted as stars.
Everything bright and shiny inthe in the night sky was a star.
(27:44):
And we find that modern-daymainstream explanations are
constantly subjected to rigorousscrutiny.
Uh, scientists present findingsto colleagues and they publish
in peer-reviewed journals andadapt their theories in light of
new contradictory evidence.
And the tools of astronomy arecomplex and expensive, and most
(28:07):
people must rely on theexpertise and honesty of those
trained to use them.
So we must consider that forscience to thrive, there must be
skepticism and rigorous debate.
You know, dissenting voiceslike lobes are viable because
they test the robustness ofmainstream explanations and
(28:30):
occasionally lead torevolutionary discoveries.
However, scientific progressdemands that all apostases,
whether establishment or fringe,are evaluated by the same
standards of evidence.
Media coverage, socialnetworks, and public forums
magnify debates aboutinterstellar objects.
(28:51):
Articles about possible aliencraft attract ridicule,
skepticism, and sometimeshostility.
Not always for scientificreasons, but because the unknown
can be unsettling.
So humor, dismissal, and denialare common responses to ideas
that challenge deeply heldassumptions.
(29:13):
And I see a lot of this on alot of these posts about if it's
an alien ship, there's a lot oflaughing emojis that that
people are using and they makethese jokes, but that's because
they, you know, they probablyhave this internal fear that
they really don't want to acceptthat this thing could be an
alien ship.
So, but a Avi Loeb and is theIsraeli American physicist at
(29:37):
Harvard University told theBoston Globe that he believed it
seemed to be manufactured inits design.
And he claimed that it was notan asteroid because it is moving
way too fast along a straightorbit.
It cannot be an asteroid, andbecause there is no trail of gas
or dust, it cannot be a comet.
(29:57):
So he hypothesizes that it is apiece of equipment that drifted
away from an alien civilizationfrom another star system.
And he wrote that Omoomoa was ararity.
Like it was if it waselongated, we had never uh seen
any naturally occurring spaceobject that size and that
(30:17):
elongated.
And if it was flat, we hadnever seen any naturally
occurring space object that sizeand that flat.
And one thing that hadintrigued him was that it
deviated from its trajectory anddidn't act in the way that we
that or that was expected.
And comet comets show somewhatof a deviation, but their comas
(30:40):
become heated by the sun to formthe you know the distinctive
trails, the tails rather, thatare associated with with things
as comets, such things ascomets.
J (30:50):
Joe
from other comets as well.
I guess uh most uh comets havetails.
That are million miles long,the Earth can actually pass
through tails of a comet.
And apparently the tail ofthree eye atlas is not acting
the same way.
And it could be because of itsuh hyperbolic trajectory, might
(31:13):
have something to do with it.
It could be about thegravitational fluctuations as it
passes by planets.
They're not sure, but they notthey have questions about the
formation of three-eye atlas'tail.
And yeah, like you said, uhAbby Loeb is you know one who
has been for many yearspostulating the notion that
these interstellar objects, youknow, they're interstellar,
(31:36):
they're not from our solarsystem, they're from beyond, and
their behavior defies what weknow about objects in our own
solar system.
And then he's the author of thebook Extraterrestrial, The
First Sign of Intelligent LifeBeyond Earth.
In that book, he wrote that asignificant portion of the
scientific community uh foundthe data about a Moa Moa very
(31:59):
puzzling and that they couldn'tget the evidence to correlate it
with a normal comet orasteroid, mainly because of its
hyperbolic orbit, but also itsvery high velocity and
unexplained acceleration.
So he went on to suggest that aMoa Moa could have been more of
a, like you said, a disk, thisdisc being akin to a solar sail.
(32:21):
The idea of a solar sail isthat it is utilizes solar, what
they call solar wind, which islike the uh mass ejection of
high energy particles from thesun, and essentially harnessing
this to give it a boost inspeed.
Uh, this has been depicted insome science fiction movies.
So I've seen it where they usesails in space, and these solar
(32:43):
sails are using what is calledsolar wind to help propel the
craft.
And he actually, Abby Lolovactually told the New Yorker in
January of 2021 that the onlyway the object could be
propelled by solar radiation isif this sail was extremely thin,
no thicker than one millimeter,with a very low density and a
(33:08):
comparatively large surfacearea.
So such an object wouldfunction as a sail, one powered
saying by high energy particlesrather than by wind as we think
of it.
So he's saying that theobservations of a Moa Moa seem
to fit that's that model thathe's talking about, making him
believe that it was launched byextraterrestrial intelligence.
L (33:32):
Laurie
ship in uh Star Wars.
Joe (33:37):
That is one I was thinking of, yes.
Laurie (33:39):
Laurie
So according to the late authorand researcher Lloyd Pye, uh,
the uh concept of the Oort cloudis a is a joke to him because
he claimed that comets are amystery.
And the issue with comets isthat they have uh water inside
them.
So he stated that comets cameabout after a giant-sized planet
(34:02):
collided with another largeplanet, one that was loaded with
water, named Tiamat, uhapproximately four and a half
billion years ago.
So this event, as we saidbefore on this show, is also
referenced in the Babylonian inNuma Elish.
This collision of the two bigplanets is what brought about
(34:23):
the Earth, and it was because ofit that the water from Tiamat
was scattered throughout thesolar system, and that it's it's
from there that we get thecomets.
Water and hence comets do notform out in space, but instead
he says they came from theexplosion of colliding planets.
(34:43):
So he he he doesn't actuallybelieve there is an Oort cloud
out there.
J (34:48):
Joe
was put forward back in the1950s by a Dutch astronomer,
after which it was named JanOort, and it was meant to
provide a model of how cometswould have elliptical orbits and
yet still have these very longperiods of time by which they
pass the sun.
And really the distance of it,you know, this 1.7 trillion
(35:12):
miles actually puts it into ourinterstellar space and it's
beyond a heliopause.
You know, in the early 20thcentury, astronomers were still
having trouble considering howcomets move, and uh they thought
that they might have parabolictrajectories and to make them
very long, so they would asunlike an elliptical trajectory,
(35:32):
which would maybe be given moreof a shorter uh time period to
orbit the sun, these parabolictrajectories that make it very
long, making it so they onlypassed you know through the
inner solar system maybe onceevery thousands of years.
But you know, this alsocontradicted a lot of
observations of other cometslike Haley's comet, which uh you
(35:53):
know orbits maybe about everyhundred years, so that one is
seen you know more frequently,but still a very long time.
And the Oort Cloud, you know,it was it wasn't conceptualized
to account for every observedobject, but more or so to
mathematically reconcile thegraph the sun's gravitational
interaction with all the distantobjects in the solar system.
(36:14):
So it's something that has notbeen seen or it's never been
even affirmatively detected.
It's more or less theorized.
And really, there's been nodirect observation of the Oort
cloud.
It like I said, it only existsin theory.
And I think the question thatwe have to ask about why three
eye atlas would not be a cometfrom the Oort Cloud, and that
(36:37):
is you know, it's not behavinglike comets we've noticed in in
the past.
I mean, if you're gonna again,if you're gonna try to say the
Oort cloud is somehow a way toexplain the strange orbits of
objects, we have no data bywhich to compare it.
Like you said, we don't wedon't know if it really is out
there.
I mean, again, it's it's anidea, it could be out there, but
(36:58):
we have no way of actuallysubstantiating that.
Nobody can say, here's apicture of the orc cloud, here's
evidence of the orc cloud.
It's sort of just a concept atthis point.
Laurie (37:10):
Yeah, so so the point is then we we can't say for
certain where 3I-Atlas camefrom.
I mean, scientific consensus isthat uh the best guide we have,
but it is not infallible.
So it adapts in uh response tocompelling new evidence.
Alternative perspectives shouldnot be dismissed, of course,
(37:30):
uh, or out of hand.
Instead, they should besubjected to the same analysis
as any other scientific idea.
So what what if what if theminority is right?
If the alternativeinterpretation that three I
atlas or other innocent objectsare artificial were proven
correct, it would be among themost profound discoveries in
(37:51):
human history.
But extraordinary claimsrequire strong reproducible
evidence.
Until such evidence is found,like the apocalypse remains an
intriguing speculation at thispoint.
Joe (38:05):
So uh we consider the Book of Revelation, with its
apocalyptic visions and symboliclanguage, has long fascinated
theologians and astronomersalike.
In Revelation 8 (38:16):
10- 11, John the Evangelist describes a
cataclysmic event, saying, Thethird angel sounded his trumpet,
and a great star blazing felllike a torch from the sky on a
third of heavens, or I shouldsay the third of the rivers, and
on the springs of water.
The name of the star isWormwood.
(38:37):
A third of the waters turnedbitter, and many people died
from the waters that had becomebitter.
That's what John wrote when hesaw the stars fall from heaven.
What he saw were meteoritesfalling through the atmosphere.
He also said he saw the moonturn to blood, which is yet
another completemisunderstanding of a scientific
phenomenon.
(38:58):
And because of our growth inscientific knowledge today, we
understand that this object mostlikely could be, even if we're
not exactly sure, but could verywell be the appearance of a
comet.
Laurie (39:12):
So this passage with its vivid descriptions invites both
literal and symbolicinterpretations, and your
question draws attention to thepossibility that what John
witnessed was not a star in themodern sense, but rather an
astronomical body, an asteroid,a meteor or comet.
So let us explore this idea uhth you know thoughtfully.
Joe (39:36):
Joe
describing such astronomicalphenomena was limited by the
knowledge and language of hisera.
The Greek word you know astarwas a catch-all for anything
luminous in the sky.
Stars as well as planets,meteors, comets, and I guess you
(39:57):
could say even if there werespaceships, bright lights in the
sky.
So the notion for uh forasteroid and comet as we
understand them did not exist somuch in the first century
language, and certainly not inthe scientific understanding of
the world.
Another excellent example ofthis is you know the star of
Bethlehem, you know, hoveringover the area of the manger.
(40:20):
If it were an actual event,then the description would not
be of a star because stars don'thover.
Stars don't move, and you don'tfollow stars as they're
traveling across the sky.
You know, they move throughoutthe night uh regularly because
of the the way the earth isrotating, but it's not like it's
right above our heads and we'refollowing it like a like a
(40:43):
little fairy.
So, I mean, is this describingsomething more technological
when they talk about the thestar that is moving and then
hovering?
Is it something technologicalthat was unknown to humankind
back in the first century?
Laurie (40:57):
Yeah, and that's similar to what you brought up about
the historical writings ofJosephus when he said, Don't you
remember that comet thatcircled the earth for an entire
year?
Because we know that cometsdon't circle the earth.
So they saw a light, but theyconsidered it a comet.
You know, that was a brightmind for the for the day back
then in that era, and theythought that that was a comet.
(41:19):
So that was possibly aspaceship that was up there
during the you know the birth ofChrist and whatnot, or during
that whole era.
So, thus, when John described,like you said, a star falling
from heaven, you know, blazinglike a torch, so it is plausible
that he was attempting toexplain the spectacle of a comet
(41:40):
with a long fiery tail or theincandescence in of a of a
meteor or asteroid enteringEarth's atmosphere.
So such phenomena would indeedappear as a burning object
trailing light, potentiallyresembling a torch to these uh
ancient eyes that that beholdit.
Joe (42:00):
Joe
little bit different than starsbecause of the tail, because of
the glow.
It's a little bit different, itsticks out.
So they would identify them asdifferent objects, uh, even if
their understanding of what youknow they were comp of which
they were composed or how theymoved wasn't completely
understood.
They might call that a comet asopposed to a star.
(42:22):
Again, just to point out thedifference in the in the objects
in the sky.
So this wormwood, you know, isit a literal thing?
Is it a symbolic thing?
Is it describing a cosmic event?
This name evokes bitterness.
And in biblical literature,wormwood is a plant, it's known
(42:44):
for its intensely bitter taste,and it's used to symbolize
sorrow and calamity, it'sassociated with bad things.
So John writes that this starturns a third of the waters
bitter and causing many deaths.
So the text does not explicitlystate that this is a comet or
an asteroid doing this, but theimagery of something blazing,
(43:08):
falling, and causing what wouldbe an environmental devastation,
this does resonate withdescriptions of large meteors or
comets impacting the Earth.
Case in point, the dinosaurextinction model from 66 million
years ago when a very largeasteroid did collide with the
Earth, and it had changed the uhecosystem for eternity to this
(43:32):
day.
So if three eye atlas, youknow, which is currently an
interstellar comet, if this wereto intersect our path, Earth's
path, and impact it, we know theeffects would be extremely
catastrophic.
So could this bitterness thatJohn is talking about, the
bitterness of the waters, bereferring to what would be
chemical changes and such thatit would be the release of
(43:56):
toxicity, substances that arepoisonous and going into the
water sources uh after such animpact, and of course the water
being poisoned would you know bevery devastating to uh not only
human life but animal life andplant life, as is evidenced from
what we found in the studies ofpaleontology in reference to
(44:17):
the impact 66 million years agowith the extinction of
dinosaurs.
Laurie (44:22):
Laurie
I mean, such an interpretationis speculative, but within the
bounds of modern imagination, acomet or asteroid could fit
John's description in ways hecould not have precisely
articulated back then.
So, I mean, let's look again atthe sequence of trumpet
judgments in Revelation 8 and 9.
(44:44):
You have the first trumpet withthat one, hail and fire mixed
with blood, burning a third ofthe earth's vegetation.
Then you have the secondtrumpet, which is a blazing
mountain, is hurled into thesea, turning a third of it to
blood, killing sea life anddestroying ships.
And that blazing mountain camefrom space as well, according to
(45:07):
the scriptures.
The third trumpet is wormwood,the star slash torch that we're
talking about.
It falls and poisons the freshwater.
The fourth trumpet is a thirdof the sun, moon, and stars are
now darkened and diminishinglight on Earth.
So if something crashing intothe moon, I also heard that
(45:28):
there's a possible comet nowthat may come and crash into the
moon, and they're concernedabout that because of the damage
it may cause to our to our onlysatellite out there right now.
So, and or will some ship blockout part of the sun and the
moon, moon's light?
So, I mean, these escal is asuh these cascading disasters
(45:49):
could be interpreted as a as aas a poetic symbolic portrayal
of divine judgment, or as asequence triggered by
astronomical events.
So this significant impactcauses firestorms, atmospheric
pollution, and ecologicaldevastation.
The mountain ablaze might evokean asteroid plunging into the
(46:11):
ocean.
The torch-like star could evokea cometary impact poisoning
waters, the subsequent darknessmight point to atmospheric
debris blocking sunlight, akinto what is theorized in uh
impact winter scenarios.
So the vision becomes even moreextraordinary with the fifth
trumpet, which is a star thatfalls to earth, but this star uh
(46:35):
unlocks the abyss from whichsmoke and locust like creatures
pour forth.
So traditional interpretationssee these as demonic beings, but
you you propose an alternative.
Could John, with his ancientworldview, have been describing
(46:55):
the arrival of something alien,either in origin or in
manifestation.
The text describes unnaturalentities armored and crowned
swarming forth in the wake ofcosmic disaster.
Similarly, the uh sixth trumpetreleases four angels bound at
the Euphrates rivers, leading toan army with breastplates of
(47:17):
fiery colors.
You know, whether thisdescribes further supernatural
judgment, symbolic forces ofconquest, or events yet to be
imagined remains a matter oftheological debate and
speculation.
But these stars come from thesky, crash to earth, and then we
see these uh horde of beingsthat it's like I don't know,
(47:40):
like capsules that crash, thecapsules bury into the earth,
and then they open up, and thenall of a sudden these uh hordes
of like alien beings lookinglike grasshoppers come out.
Joe (47:53):
Joe
things happening here on earthwith things that are occurring
in the in the heavens.
So it's these things thathappen on earth that are
devastating, they start up inthe sky.
And that seems to be theconsistent theme with with these
visions with thiseschatological and apocalyptic
(48:13):
literature.
And of course, we understandRevelation's visions are highly
symbolic and they're open tomultiple interpretations on
spiritual and literal levels,usually a blend of both.
And many theologians cautionagainst linking current
astronomical uh sightings andobjects in the sky to specific
(48:35):
prophecies.
I tend to agree.
The text's primary purpose isto convey ultimate truths about
you know spiritual matters,about moral judgment, about
personal redemption, uh, youknow, essentially the
universality of the gospel, hoperather than you know, hope for
mankind.
They do this more so than serveas some kind of coded forecast
(48:58):
about astronomical calamities inthe future.
So I think it's both naturaland and fruitful to explore how
ancient visions might align withmodern scientific
understanding, but it's such abroad you know umbrella that
we're talking about with youknow the understanding of
history, astronomy, philosophy,and ancient, you know, uh
(49:23):
mysticism, ancient mythology, itencompasses all of that
together.
So you know, I would agree thatyou know these aren't
one-to-one correlations ofwhatever is in revelation to
what is happening, because youknow, we've had these things
happen uh on our earth you knowsince the beginning of time.
In fact, we talk about theextinction of the dinosaurs,
(49:44):
that was long before humans wereeven on earth, long before any
scriptural writings were wereput in place.
Laurie (49:53):
Laurie
So, John's vision of Wormwoodreads with the awe and mystery
of celestial catechism, hewrote as one awestruck by the
heavens using the vocabulary andimagery available to him.
You know, whether wormwood is aliteral comet, asteroid, or a
symbol of divine judgment, thepassage remains a powerful
(50:16):
testament to the age-old humanimpulse to find meaning in the
stars and to interpret the uhunknown through the lens of
vision, faith, andmanifestation.
Joe (50:29):
Yeah, so whether you know 3I-Atlas or any other comet will
ever bear the name Wormwood, Iguess that's a question that you
know is going to be shrouded inmystery.
Uh it is much about thephilosophy of science as it is
about esotericism.
So, we must strike a balancebetween you know trusting expert
consensus and also remainingopen to unconventional ideas
(50:50):
while always demanding rigorousevidence.
And if three Atlas is anythingother than a comet, then the
search for truth depends oncritical thinking, uh, humility,
and uh on a willingness toquestion assumptions, even those
of institutionalized science,which I think we we do here on
this show.
La (51:10):
Laurie
Revelation is not solely aboutthe mechanics of a disaster, but
about uh spiritualpreparedness, the consequences
of human actions in the hope ofthe ultimate renewal.
But anyway, some will saythat's impossible.
But is it, according toastrobiologist Karen J.
Meach, who spoke at a TEDconference or technology,
(51:34):
entertainment and design, wherethe world's thinkers get to
share their ideas to the worldin 18 minutes or less about
technology, science, design,business, and other topics can
be applied to the problemsfacing our world today.
Mech discussed how the PanStars, the S T A R R S
Telescope, Panoramic SurveyTelescope and Rapid Response
(51:56):
System, detected Omo Moa back onOctober 19, 2017.
And naturally, everyone wasquite excited about the idea of
some something coming fromoutside our solar system, which
is why they wanted to name itRama.
Now, if now, at first I thoughtthis was strange for these
astronomers to want to name itafter a fictional spaceship.
(52:20):
The fact is, rendezvous withRama may have been akin to
Clark's prophecy that detailingthe arrival of a Moomoa.
So, as you said, the there wasa book that was published in
1973, and it described a massivecylindrical-shaped ship that
came tumbling into our solarsystem near the sun.
(52:41):
And astronauts wanted to findout what it was.
It was airily similar indeed tohow a moomoa seemed to arrive.
And it came into our solarsystem from a very high angle
and it traveled by the sun andpassed on an inside of Mercury
and then by Earth at a distanceof only 15 million miles.
(53:02):
Then it did something reallystrange.
It accelerated as it rushedpast Earth.
So, how did it propel itselfout of here?
So, what if the civilizationthat sent Atlas is one of the
ones that received our firstradio signal transmitted by City
back in 1974, almost 50 yearsago?
And within 30 to 40 years, theywere advanced enough to send
(53:25):
the craft to the to the sourceof those radio frequencies.
So, yes, and I think they justI mean it is possible for it to
have been sent here by anadvanced alien race from
somewhere in the Lyraconstellation, since that's
where it uh it travels from.
And it would not be impossiblebecause I believe now they're
(53:45):
saying that they're thinkingthat this wow signal that they
received back several years ago,a couple of decades ago, could
be from 3i Atlas.
Joe (53:56):
Joe
And then this, you know,there's a hypothesis that you
know the reason Omoa Moaaccelerated the way it did back
in 2017 is that was due torelease of nitrogen gas,
essentially gave it a boost.
That that was the boost itneeded.
And its close passage to thesun would have increased its
(54:17):
surface temperature, causing iceto sublimate and you know allow
these streams of nitrogen toescape and thus propel it in
such a manner, enough even toalter its course, so that it
would have you know an increasein speed, and if it went to a
more narrow trajectory past theperihelion.
So no such streams of gas weredetected.
That's one of the problems withthe hypothesis.
(54:39):
NASA researchers believe thatit, you know, if there were
enough gas pressure, it couldhave caused an increase without
being detectable.
Again, this is now gettingrather speculative, as there's
no evidence to support that.
And Avi Loeb and Shmuel Baileypostulated in an article back in
2018 in the astrophysicaljournal letters that the
(55:03):
acceleration of Oumuamua mayhave been from the pressure of
particle radiation from the sun.
And that's what Avi Loebmentioned, the uh notion of this
you know solar wind sail, isyou know, and kind of just
coming down to the point wherethey they have a lot of uh
speculation, a lot of ideas.
(55:24):
Most of them are not reallysupported by uh data that's been
you know detected or uhrecorded.
Lauri (55:33):
Laurie
collection from the Keplersatellite, there are about a
quarter of stars slash suns thathave Earth-like planets
orbiting them, and and that theymay have had previous
civilizations.
And Oumuamua may very well be arelic, you know, along with
Borisov and 3i Atlas, uh relicsof those so-called civilizations
(55:57):
that may have produced, thatmay have produced it, so which
could uh have been some type ofuh engine design and is now you
know just a piece of space junk.
But like I said, I cannot getthe trajectory out of my head on
all three of them, andtherefore, you know, I find it
difficult to believe it doesn'thave operational intelligence
(56:18):
behind it, and it could bewrong, of course.
And so, I mean, but but whywould anyone want to ridicule
those who think it may be anextraterrestrial craft?
Because at some point it's justas good a theory as as any
other, because we're if theypass by, if Tri Atlas continues
on, we're still not gonna know.
We're just gonna uh assume thatit's you know that NASA and the
(56:41):
government was right, or wechoose to believe Avi Lob.
Unless it comes there and ithovers above our planet, then
then we'd know.
Joe (56:50):
Joe
Like I said, at this point, wedon't have enough data to really
uh solidify any one hypothesis.
There's there are many of them,and we we really lack the data
to kind of back up uh all ofthem.
The the bottom line is we don'texactly sure what a Moa Moa,
Borisov, or Atlas really are.
In most ways, they all appearto be natural objects, and and
(57:12):
probably are, yet they aremoving in ways that Newtonian
physics does not predict.
So we have to recognize thatfor what it is.
Could something else behappening?
And if so, you know, then what?
And what if it does turn out tonot be natural?
How do we respond to that, andhow do we mentally process that?
Lauri (57:32):
Laurie
always provisional, awaiting thenext surprise from the cosmos.
And as we peer skyward, we mustremember that not knowing is
not the same as being deceived,and the unknown, rather than
being a source of fear, can bean invitation to wonder.
Joe (57:52):
Yeah, and ultimately you, the audience, must decide what
you think from what has beenpresented by the scientific
community and from people likeus who are examining these s
stories and and kind of goingthrough the the information
that's out there.
Is three eye atlas an alienspacecraft occupied by
(58:13):
intelligent life forms?
Could it be something like adrone or a probe droid,
something not biological butunder the control of automation
or even AI?
Or is it a piece of discardedspace junk from a larger
spaceship, like the StarshipEnterprise, somewhere far away
in another system?
Or is it just a measly oldcomet, maybe a rogue comet?
(58:34):
I suppose we'll find out in acouple of months, you know, by
Christmas.
And that will that will wrap upthe show for today, folks.
Uh and we want to thank you allfor joining us.
And uh we'll we'll find out ifthis thing uh is what it you
know what it is in a few months,and like I said, by Christmas.
La (58:52):
Laurie
about it.
Instead of Santa Claus comingto town, it'd be, you know.
Joe (58:59):
Joe
3I-Atlas is coming to town.
Laurie (59:02):
Gonna find out who's not here, nice.
Separate the chaffe from thewheat.
Joe (59:07):
Joe
So thank you folks for joiningus.
Stay safe and always staycurious.
Hello, everyone, and thank you for joining us on Alien Talk
Podcast.
Today we're back after a prettylengthy hiatus.
Last time we were with you waslate August, I think.
So we'll start by saying it isgood to return to the show and
to share with you ourexploration and discussion of
pertinent topics that have beensparking interest within the
fields of ufology andextraterrestrial studies.
(01:22):
Now one that has been in theheadlines quite a bit over the
past few months is the discoveryof an interstellar object
within our solar system.
It is said to be interstellar,meaning it has a point of origin
that many astronomers believeis from beyond the region of
space in which our sun and itsplanets are situated.
(01:42):
So, it seems to be traversingthe space that spans the
distance, the very vast distancefrom one star system to another.
It is called 3I- Atlas and wasdetected just this past July at
the Rio Hurtado Observatory inChile and the Palomer
Observatory in San Diego, partof a network overseen by NASA
(02:05):
through Cal-Tech, and Laurie, Itis actually the third of such
interstellar objects to enterour solar system since 2017.
Laurie (02:15):
Laurie
And uh the first one wasOumuamua, technically called
1I-Oumuamua, with the letter Iused to designate it as
interstellar.
And we discussed that one acouple years now, maybe a few
years ago.
And the name is derived fromthe Hawaiian word for scout, and
(02:35):
it was discovered through theHaleakalala Observatory in
Hawaii.
And the second one was two-eyedBorisov in uh August of 2019,
which was named after theamateur astronomer in Russia,
Gennaidy Borizov, who was the uhfirst to observe it.
Unlike Oumuamua, which had thecharacteristics of an asteroid,
(02:59):
Borizov was surrounded by alarge orb of dust and gas.
We call it a coma, which madeit more like a comet.
Jo (03:08):
Joe
However, 3I-Atlas is similar toBorisov and that it behaves
like a comet.
And like the other two, thisone has been closely analyzed by
both the Hubble and Webb SpaceTelescopes to obtain more
accurate estimates of its sizeand composition.
It has been calculated thatAtlas is 3.5 miles long and
(03:31):
about a mile wide, making it bigenough to cause a severe
catastrophe if it were to impactEarth.
Remember, the asteroid thatwiped out the dinosaurs 66
million years ago was thought tohave been about six miles in
diameter.
So, this is roughly half thatsize, and it would definitely
cause much devastation if itwere to impact our planet.
Fortunately, it seems now theclosest it will come to us is
(03:54):
about 150 million miles, andthat'll occur sometime near the
end of this year, assuming nochange is on its course.
Laurie (04:04):
Laurie
Now, now there has been uh somedebate in academic forums about
you know what 3i Atlas mightreally be, as it is not behaving
like a regular comet, as theysay, at least according to some
calculations.
So some aspects of it aresignificantly different, and
this has led some to reassesswhat we understand about
(04:28):
near-Earth orbits.
While most astronomersconsidered three eye atlas to be
indeed a comet that wanderedinto the inner solar system from
interstellar space, a small yetvocal minority, including the
renowned Israeli physicist SaviLoeb, entertains the possibility
that it is not a naturalcelestial body at all, but
(04:51):
perhaps one of the of uh alienorigin.
And if not a travelingspacecraft, then it is possibly
some drifting piece of spacejump from another world.
But this divergence and in uhinterpretation raises questions
not only about what three eyeAtlas truly is, but also about
(05:11):
how we as a society decide whatto believe when faced with the
limits of our own perception andknowledge.
So consider how much space junkwe have jettisoned above the
earth as well as above the moonand other planets.
There are literally tons ofstuff floating around up there,
things ranging in size from abolt to a school bus.
(05:33):
So suppose we ditch rocketstages and satellites and
component modules and panels inthe course of our space
exploration.
In that case, it's not toounexpected that an
extraterrestrial civilizationwould also need to release
excess and unneeded materialthat would, you know, ditch for
(05:54):
essentially eternity.
Jo (05:55):
Joe
they would have even more spacejunk than we do because they
would just have more operationsand applications in space than
we do, and we have a lot, justour own human race here on
planet Earth, and we have, likeyou said, tons of material up
there.
A civilization that has beenembarking on space missions for
(06:18):
perhaps centuries.
Just imagine how much more sothey would have drifting around.
So we know that about meteors,asteroids, and comets.
Those are the three primarycelestial bodies that orbit the
sun and can become near-Earthobjects if they come into view
in the night sky.
And three eye atlas reallydoesn't fit into the categories
(06:41):
these three uh objects becausethey aren't originating in
regions of space whereastronomers would expect them
to.
Amoa Moa and Borisov alsodidn't.
And it's the name of this threeeye atlas is after the acronym
for asteroid terrestrial impactlast alert system.
That's NASA's program fordetecting and surveying
(07:04):
near-Earth objects to assess thepotential for planetary impact.
It was started back in 2015.
Now, what makes astronomersbelieve atlas is interstellar is
because of what is called ahyperbolic trajectory.
One of the characteristics usedin orbital mechanics to
describe motion is somethingcalled eccentricity, and that is
(07:25):
the ratio of how two celestialbodies deviate from one another
in a circular orbit.
So an eccentricity of zero is aperfect circle, and any value
between zero and one describesan ellipse.
A value of one is a parabola,and something greater than one
is a hyperbola.
The eccentricity of a Oumuamuawas estimated to be 1.12,
(07:48):
supposedly the highest numberever assigned by NASA's Jet
Propulsion Laboratory.
Borisov was 3.4.
3I- Atlas is at 6.3.
This means it has a very curvedpath to make it hyperbolic, and
that it really doesn't seem tobe orbiting our sun, but instead
is more like shooting throughthe solar system from some other
(08:10):
point originating beyond oursolar system, some other point
in the galaxy.
So we must ask, why would it bean alien craft?
La (08:20):
Laurie
are accelerations that havebaffled experts because they
aren't following mathematicalpredictions in their orbit
around the sun.
So it appears to be speeding upand slowing down in ways that
are pretty much unpredictable.
So the majority of astronomersand planetary scientists view
(08:43):
3I-Atlas as a comet based on itsobserved trajectory appearance
and its behavior.
Scientific consensus forms notout of dogma, but through the
careful accumulation ofevidence, the spectroscopic
data, orbital patterns, andphotometric studies, all of
which so far align with ourunderstanding of natural comets.
(09:05):
These icy bodies, remnants ofsolar system formation, are
known to enter the inner solarsystem on unusual trajectories,
sometimes even from interstellarspace.
As of right now, it isestimated to be 233 million
miles from Earth, and afterOctober 29th, it will reach its
(09:28):
uh its perihelion, its closestpoint to the sun, and it won't
be visible at all until afterNovember 9th, and will be
closest to the Earth on December19th.
However, some alternativetheorists highlight the
statistically uh unusualapproach, vectors of Oumuamua,
(09:50):
Borizov, and now 3I- Atlas,suggesting that their
trajectories are not random andmay reflect an entered uh an
intentional or a designedorigin.
Now, Avi Loeb and a handful ofother scientists suggest that
not all interstellar visitorscan be easily explained away by
natural origins.
(10:10):
So Loeb famously pointed thatOumuamua, our first confirmed
interstellar object observedback in 2017, exhibited
anomalies, a lack of outgassing,unusual acceleration, and a
trajectory inconsistent withtypical comets or asteroids.
In his book, Extraterrestrial,Loeb speculated it could be an
(10:31):
alien probe or a piece of alientechnology.
So can you imagine what oursociety would be like right now
if NASA or the Pentagon had toldus back in October 2017 that
Oumuamua was an alien spacecraftand would be arriving on our
planet in six months?
Joe (10:49):
Joe
It could be that it would it'ssomething that would bring all
the world together to deal withwhat would be seen as a complete
change in the course of humanhistory, something that would
unite us all in our commonalityas a human species.
We'd like to believe that.
However, there is asignificant, substantial risk
that it would instill a lot ofpanic and chaos, and
(11:12):
unfortunately, even furtherdivision.
I mean, the pandemic didn'tbring humanity together very
well in terms of the way we seeourselves within the grand
scheme of things.
So I don't know if a confirmedalien arrival here on earth
would make us respond anydifferently.
I suppose it could go eitherway, just depending on the
specific circumstances of all ofit.
(11:34):
So, Oumuamua and Borisov areyou know now moving further and
further away from our solarsystem.
And from what we've learned,they seem more likely than not
to be natural objects.
And granted, we never got anygood close information, no close
up data to really kind of makethat assessment or get a good
look at it.
La (11:55):
Laurie
gifts that they've uh put out,but to show the how close in
proximity it came.
But you know, these claims,however, often rest on
interpretations of limited dataand rely on hypothetical motives
or technologies.
(12:15):
Uh for the public, then thenature of three eye atlas and
any cosmic visitor is largelyinaccessible, right?
Most do not have powerfultelescopes or advanced degrees
in astrophysics.
We are we are compelled totrust uh consensus of experts or
in moments of skepticism toseek out other interpretations.
(12:37):
So the problem arises whenevidence is ambiguous or when
extraordinary claims are madewithout exceptional evidence.
So we have to choose who tobelieve.
Do we believe NASA/slashgovernment or do we believe the
Harvard professors and otherslike them?
So, in an article published byUnion Rail uh Rail on September
(13:00):
19, 2025, Laura by O'Laura M,she discusses the intriguing
claims of 20 scientistsregarding 3I- Atlas.
They suggest that it couldactually be a spacecraft that is
cloaked by its unusualtrajectory and composition.
Avi Loeb argues that thevariations in its acceleration
(13:23):
might indicate a controlledmovement, implying that an
intelligent entity could pilotit.
Additionally, some scientistspropose that hidden probes might
be traveling within naturalcomets, serving as a means of uh
transportation.
So like other comets that havevisited may have also had these
probes inside of them.
Joe (13:43):
Right, and to kind of you know illustrate what you're
talking about.
This would be like a aspacecraft that is covered by
what looks like a naturalobject.
So it it's you know aconstructed, you know, uh craft,
but it's not perceived ordetected as such.
Uh it's able to make adeception upon visual and
(14:06):
analytical you know data thatmake it look like it is just a
comet when really it's a craft,kind of like a spacecraft
within an actual object, or atleast that's how it's projecting
itself to look to any kind ofsensors or uh telescopes.
And this kind of reminds me ofa a very fascinating painting.
It's called the crucifixionfresco and it dates back to
(14:28):
1350, and it's located in theViskoski Cani Monastery in
Kosovo over in Serbia.
And in the right top rightcorner of this fresco, there is
a fig figure seated inside whatis seems to be a star, giving
the impression that this beingis piloting this star.
(14:49):
And on the left side of thisfresco is another figure who
seems to be piloting what lookslike a comet. So, these are you
know two human figures, orthey're clearly human figures
inside what look like to becomets.
So this is kind of like theidea we're trying to present
here is that the cometsthemselves are being steered.
(15:11):
The comets are the spacecrafts,at least that's how it's being
perceived by our detection.
Laurie (15:18):
Yeah, and it's in if you take a take the picture and
zoom in on a picture of3I-Atlas, it's almost the exact
same form as that guy you'retalking about in that inside
that comet-looking painting.
So it certainly raises someinteresting questions.
I mean, could it be that peoplefrom the medieval period were
(15:40):
trying to how you know howbeing can travel or they're
trying to explain how a beingcan travel and come to Earth in
comet-like vessels?
When often, well, you know, weoften see similar depictions in
Renaissance artwork.
Just as ancient Biblicalwriters lacked the vocabulary to
explain their observations, sotoo did these artists
(16:03):
incorporate their understandingof unknown flying objects into
their paintings.
So fascinating, isn't it?
Joe (16:10):
Joe
And as of September 26th,experts have noted that the
behavior of three eye atlas doesnot match that of other comets
they've tracked in the past.
It's also the fastest one thatthey've seen so far.
It has a speed of 130,000 milesper hour.
With it being in a hyperbolicorbit, it is not gravitationally
(16:30):
tethered to the sun.
So several intriguing questionsare being raised, and one of
them is about its composition.
There's a high presence ofnickel and a lower presence of
iron, which is not typical ofthe metallic composition of
comets.
So it's also emitting morecarbon dioxide and uh like CO2
(16:52):
and OH.
OH is hydroxide.
It's emitting more of those uhsubstances than water.
And it's even spectroscopicallyshifted color, going from red
hue to green hue.
This could indicate changes invelocity.
And the latest buzz is that ithas dramatically altered its
course.
This has led astrophysicists tospeculate that it is of
(17:13):
unnatural origin, given this17-degree trajectory change in a
48-hour time frame, which issignificant.
And this has promptedintensified monitoring by Jet
Propulsion Laboratory.
So, despite these concerns,some argue that the trajectory
adjustments could actually bethe result of outgassing from a
comet, you know, changes ingravitational pull as it's going
(17:37):
by the planets.
And but sometimes, you know, Iwonder about you know Secretary
of Defense Pete Hegseth.
Uh, he just recently had thisunprecedented meeting in
Quantico, Virginia, with all 800the military's top brass, all
the 06s and above.
And uh that is rather unusual.
I never heard of a a meetinglike that where the Secretary of
(17:59):
Defense calls all the generalsand all the admirals into a
meeting in Quantico.
So it makes you wonder, huh?
Laurie (18:08):
Laurie
Well, you know, a lot of peoplethink, well, it's because World
War III is about to start, andbecause we're we have our hands
in, you know, in the dealingswith the Venezuela now and the
drug cartels and everythingthat's going on over in the
Middle East and then Russia andin uh Ukraine and you know, so
which yeah, could be, but italso could be that there's
(18:31):
something about through threeeye atlas that they know that
we, the public, do not know.
And with you talking about thatCO2 and all that stuff, like I
mean, these uh these unusualcharacteristics suggest that
three eye atlas may have anindustrial, a artificial origin
rather than being a naturalcomet.
(18:52):
So and you know, producing theyou know, you know, releasing
the uh the middle through youknow photochemical processes as
it approaches the sun.
So and now the speed I as it asit's coming towards Mars, I
think they said now it's like200,000 miles per hour.
So it's weird how it'saccelerating that that much.
(19:14):
So but I've been uh you knowpondering all this too.
So look, we're not definitelysaying that three i Atlas is an
alien ship.
I mean, we just don't know forsure, but we can't entertain the
possibility.
So remember the firstinterstellar visitor was Omo
Moa, which that translates toscout.
(19:36):
So it makes sense to send thefirst one as a scout to gather
you know reconnaissance photos,and then came the uh the the
follow-up probe, which isBorizov, for a closer look.
And as they say, the thirdtime's a charm, right?
So you can see how the timingof the first two allowed them to
(19:57):
fly in close proximity to ourplanet.
So how could that be just acoincidence, you know, and for
it to come in, meet the planet,meet Earth at its just as it's
approaching, it's like it'staking pictures and then it
takes back off into space.
Same thing with the second one,Borizov.
It comes in and does like itkind of meets Earth, doesn't hit
(20:19):
it, but rides alongside of itfor a little bit of a of a
distance, Earth goes to the leftand then hit this thing goes
off to the right.
It's it's amazing.
So, you know, but for the sakeof argument, if they indeed are
intelligently designed, youknow, does that mean that we
might be on the brink of ourmodern day first contact?
(20:41):
Or you know, maybe the muchanticipated second coming of
Christ?
Joe (20:46):
Yeah, that's an intriguing idea to consider.
Atlas is predicted to reach usaround December 19th, which
coincidentally aligns closelywith the time historically
associated with the Star ofBethlehem.
And while we don't know theexact date of Christ's birth,
it's kind of interesting to notethat it has been nearly 2,000
years since that time, and nowthis comet is making its
(21:08):
appearance around ourcivilization when we've had
recognized it as significant.
We identify what this means asan interstellar object.
And additionally, there arehistorical records that indicate
that, you know, the like theChinese, they've documented a
comet around 5 AD.
So did Josephus, the Jewishhistorian.
(21:30):
He mentioned a comet thatreportedly circled the earth for
an entire year, and this is allaround the time of Christ,
around the first century.
And this raises fascinatingquestions about the
intersections between astronomyand our historical narratives.
Laurie (21:45):
Yeah, and we're not on here to give out these, you
know, the the rapture is goingto take place like tomorrow.
I rolled my eyes and I had acringe moment when started
seeing these posts on socialmedia.
The rapture is going to occurSeptember 23rd, and that's it.
Joe (22:03):
Joe
La (22:04):
Laurie
We've been hearing about theend times and the rapture since
we were kids.
So, but maybe the gods, maybethe gods of our earthy religions
are returning to uh to restoreorder to our civilization and
to, as the Bible says, I guess,separate the chaffe from the
wheat, so to speak.
So, I mean, who is going to beconsidered good and who is going
(22:27):
to be considered evil?
I mean, honestly, I don'tbelieve those who riot and cause
anarchy uh by going against theestablished law and order, the
the rule of uh of law, which theuh ancient gods, if they really
are ancient alien beings, youknow, they implemented these
laws for the good of society.
(22:47):
So, so listen carefully to thisscripture verse, though, and
makes you wonder if we are inthe in times in II Timothy 3:
1- 5 and think about what ishappening in our society today.
So it says, but know this thatin the last days perilous times
will come, for men will belovers of themselves, lovers of
(23:08):
money, boasters, proud,blasphemers, disobedient to
parents, unthankful, unholy,unloving, unforgiving,
slanderers, withoutself-control, brutal, despisers
of good, traitors, headstrong,haughty, lovers of pressure,
lovers of pleasure rather thanlovers of God.
(23:30):
Now, by reading that, seeingthe comments, and watching the
videos produced on social mediatoday, you can see all of these
things listed in the scripturesunfolding.
You can see you can see allthis stuff unfolding in in from
people, you know, like the uhthe rioters, the Antifa people,
(23:51):
all of that.
You can see all of this stuffcoming out.
Joe (23:55):
Joe
And so we asked the questionwhat does this have to do with
the arrival of 3I-Atlas?
Well, probably nothing.
Uh we don't know.
We you know, it's we're notsaying that there is any
correlation.
We're just that you know, thewe're obviously uh uh noticing
that our times are perilous, andyou know, as described in
(24:16):
biblical prophecy, which youknow talks about the end times
being chaotic and you knowdreadful, and then that's been
the situation of humanity sincethe beginning of time.
We have always been in thisstate.
Actually, we we may haveimproved a little bit in this
state, given the way things havebeen in past centuries.
Certainly, I think our time nowis I think I'd I would rather
(24:39):
be living now than in the FrenchRevolution, you know, something
like that, or during a time ofWorld War I and World War II.
But in terms of how three Iatlas might connect, uh, you
know, it's the coincidence ofyou know having an interstellar
object arrive in our solarsystem, the one of three within
the last you know, ten years.
And this makes me want to talkabout the prevailing scientific
(25:03):
understanding about the natureand origin of comets and
asteroids.
So there are two regions beyondwhat is called the heliopause
of our solar system, which isbeyond Pluto, very, very far
away.
And the one region is calledthe Kuiper belt, which is uh
kind of like the asteroid beltbetween Mars and Jupiter, but
it's much more expansive wheremeteors are thought to move in a
(25:26):
very slow orbit, or I shouldsay asteroids are moving in a
very slow orbit, and it's aboutsix billion miles away.
And meteors are actually thedebris pieces that have blown
off of comets, and of course,some of them drift close to
Earth and hit the atmosphere andare seen as shooting stars at
night at nighttime.
The ones that reach the surfaceare called meteorites.
(25:47):
Now, asteroids are larger andcould be remnants of other
celestial bodies that brokeapart after the formation of the
protoplanets.
The vast majority of them arestill in the asteroid belt
between Mars and Jupiter, butthere are you know things called
Trojan asteroids that share anorbit with the planet and known
in celestial mechanics asLagrange points.
(26:07):
And then the ones that do comeclose to Earth are given a
special name of Apolloasteroids.
Now there is another region outthere called the Oort Cloud.
Again, these have not beenreally seen, but even you know
theorized.
And it's supposedly the OortCloud is even further away than
the Kuiper belt.
That's about 1.7 trillion milesaway, and this is where comets
(26:28):
are thought to originate.
And unlike asteroids andmeteors, which are made of rocks
and metals like iron andnickel, comets are also
comprised of ice and gas aswell.
Gases like nitrogen, hydrogen,carbon dioxide, methane, and
water vapor.
And there's this nucleus thatemits dust from what is called
the coma.
Now the Oort cloud is not somuch a disk or a belt, but more
(26:52):
like a sphere that encapsulatesthe solar system.
So comets orbit the sun fromjust about every angle
imaginable, and this material isessentially considered to be
debris floating around in thesolar system since the beginning
of the formation, some five, Ishould say some 15 billion years
ago.
And the sizes range fromgranules of sand to rocks and
(27:15):
some things as big as the entirecontinent of Europe.
Some of them are very large,some of them very small.
Lau (27:21):
Laurie
described is what we know todayas scientific fact.
Now, we know precisely whatthese things are because of our
scientific breakthroughs andknowledge.
You know, back in ancienttimes, these objects were all
interpreted as stars.
Everything bright and shiny inthe in the night sky was a star.
(27:44):
And we find that modern-daymainstream explanations are
constantly subjected to rigorousscrutiny.
Uh, scientists present findingsto colleagues and they publish
in peer-reviewed journals andadapt their theories in light of
new contradictory evidence.
And the tools of astronomy arecomplex and expensive, and most
(28:07):
people must rely on theexpertise and honesty of those
trained to use them.
So we must consider that forscience to thrive, there must be
skepticism and rigorous debate.
You know, dissenting voiceslike lobes are viable because
they test the robustness ofmainstream explanations and
(28:30):
occasionally lead torevolutionary discoveries.
However, scientific progressdemands that all apostases,
whether establishment or fringe,are evaluated by the same
standards of evidence.
Media coverage, socialnetworks, and public forums
magnify debates aboutinterstellar objects.
(28:51):
Articles about possible aliencraft attract ridicule,
skepticism, and sometimeshostility.
Not always for scientificreasons, but because the unknown
can be unsettling.
So humor, dismissal, and denialare common responses to ideas
that challenge deeply heldassumptions.
(29:13):
And I see a lot of this on alot of these posts about if it's
an alien ship, there's a lot oflaughing emojis that that
people are using and they makethese jokes, but that's because
they, you know, they probablyhave this internal fear that
they really don't want to acceptthat this thing could be an
alien ship.
So, but a Avi Loeb and is theIsraeli American physicist at
(29:37):
Harvard University told theBoston Globe that he believed it
seemed to be manufactured inits design.
And he claimed that it was notan asteroid because it is moving
way too fast along a straightorbit.
It cannot be an asteroid, andbecause there is no trail of gas
or dust, it cannot be a comet.
(29:57):
So he hypothesizes that it is apiece of equipment that drifted
away from an alien civilizationfrom another star system.
And he wrote that Omoomoa was ararity.
Like it was if it waselongated, we had never uh seen
any naturally occurring spaceobject that size and that
(30:17):
elongated.
And if it was flat, we hadnever seen any naturally
occurring space object that sizeand that flat.
And one thing that hadintrigued him was that it
deviated from its trajectory anddidn't act in the way that we
that or that was expected.
And comet comets show somewhatof a deviation, but their comas
(30:40):
become heated by the sun to formthe you know the distinctive
trails, the tails rather, thatare associated with with things
as comets, such things ascomets.
J (30:50):
Joe
from other comets as well.
I guess uh most uh comets havetails.
That are million miles long,the Earth can actually pass
through tails of a comet.
And apparently the tail ofthree eye atlas is not acting
the same way.
And it could be because of itsuh hyperbolic trajectory, might
(31:13):
have something to do with it.
It could be about thegravitational fluctuations as it
passes by planets.
They're not sure, but they notthey have questions about the
formation of three-eye atlas'tail.
And yeah, like you said, uhAbby Loeb is you know one who
has been for many yearspostulating the notion that
these interstellar objects, youknow, they're interstellar,
(31:36):
they're not from our solarsystem, they're from beyond, and
their behavior defies what weknow about objects in our own
solar system.
And then he's the author of thebook Extraterrestrial, The
First Sign of Intelligent LifeBeyond Earth.
In that book, he wrote that asignificant portion of the
scientific community uh foundthe data about a Moa Moa very
(31:59):
puzzling and that they couldn'tget the evidence to correlate it
with a normal comet orasteroid, mainly because of its
hyperbolic orbit, but also itsvery high velocity and
unexplained acceleration.
So he went on to suggest that aMoa Moa could have been more of
a, like you said, a disk, thisdisc being akin to a solar sail.
(32:21):
The idea of a solar sail isthat it is utilizes solar, what
they call solar wind, which islike the uh mass ejection of
high energy particles from thesun, and essentially harnessing
this to give it a boost inspeed.
Uh, this has been depicted insome science fiction movies.
So I've seen it where they usesails in space, and these solar
(32:43):
sails are using what is calledsolar wind to help propel the
craft.
And he actually, Abby Lolovactually told the New Yorker in
January of 2021 that the onlyway the object could be
propelled by solar radiation isif this sail was extremely thin,
no thicker than one millimeter,with a very low density and a
(33:08):
comparatively large surfacearea.
So such an object wouldfunction as a sail, one powered
saying by high energy particlesrather than by wind as we think
of it.
So he's saying that theobservations of a Moa Moa seem
to fit that's that model thathe's talking about, making him
believe that it was launched byextraterrestrial intelligence.
L (33:32):
Laurie
ship in uh Star Wars.
Joe (33:37):
That is one I was thinking of, yes.
Laurie (33:39):
Laurie
So according to the late authorand researcher Lloyd Pye, uh,
the uh concept of the Oort cloudis a is a joke to him because
he claimed that comets are amystery.
And the issue with comets isthat they have uh water inside
them.
So he stated that comets cameabout after a giant-sized planet
(34:02):
collided with another largeplanet, one that was loaded with
water, named Tiamat, uhapproximately four and a half
billion years ago.
So this event, as we saidbefore on this show, is also
referenced in the Babylonian inNuma Elish.
This collision of the two bigplanets is what brought about
(34:23):
the Earth, and it was because ofit that the water from Tiamat
was scattered throughout thesolar system, and that it's it's
from there that we get thecomets.
Water and hence comets do notform out in space, but instead
he says they came from theexplosion of colliding planets.
(34:43):
So he he he doesn't actuallybelieve there is an Oort cloud
out there.
J (34:48):
Joe
was put forward back in the1950s by a Dutch astronomer,
after which it was named JanOort, and it was meant to
provide a model of how cometswould have elliptical orbits and
yet still have these very longperiods of time by which they
pass the sun.
And really the distance of it,you know, this 1.7 trillion
(35:12):
miles actually puts it into ourinterstellar space and it's
beyond a heliopause.
You know, in the early 20thcentury, astronomers were still
having trouble considering howcomets move, and uh they thought
that they might have parabolictrajectories and to make them
very long, so they would asunlike an elliptical trajectory,
(35:32):
which would maybe be given moreof a shorter uh time period to
orbit the sun, these parabolictrajectories that make it very
long, making it so they onlypassed you know through the
inner solar system maybe onceevery thousands of years.
But you know, this alsocontradicted a lot of
observations of other cometslike Haley's comet, which uh you
(35:53):
know orbits maybe about everyhundred years, so that one is
seen you know more frequently,but still a very long time.
And the Oort Cloud, you know,it was it wasn't conceptualized
to account for every observedobject, but more or so to
mathematically reconcile thegraph the sun's gravitational
interaction with all the distantobjects in the solar system.
(36:14):
So it's something that has notbeen seen or it's never been
even affirmatively detected.
It's more or less theorized.
And really, there's been nodirect observation of the Oort
cloud.
It like I said, it only existsin theory.
And I think the question thatwe have to ask about why three
eye atlas would not be a cometfrom the Oort Cloud, and that
(36:37):
is you know, it's not behavinglike comets we've noticed in in
the past.
I mean, if you're gonna again,if you're gonna try to say the
Oort cloud is somehow a way toexplain the strange orbits of
objects, we have no data bywhich to compare it.
Like you said, we don't wedon't know if it really is out
there.
I mean, again, it's it's anidea, it could be out there, but
(36:58):
we have no way of actuallysubstantiating that.
Nobody can say, here's apicture of the orc cloud, here's
evidence of the orc cloud.
It's sort of just a concept atthis point.
Laurie (37:10):
Yeah, so so the point is then we we can't say for
certain where 3I-Atlas camefrom.
I mean, scientific consensus isthat uh the best guide we have,
but it is not infallible.
So it adapts in uh response tocompelling new evidence.
Alternative perspectives shouldnot be dismissed, of course,
(37:30):
uh, or out of hand.
Instead, they should besubjected to the same analysis
as any other scientific idea.
So what what if what if theminority is right?
If the alternativeinterpretation that three I
atlas or other innocent objectsare artificial were proven
correct, it would be among themost profound discoveries in
(37:51):
human history.
But extraordinary claimsrequire strong reproducible
evidence.
Until such evidence is found,like the apocalypse remains an
intriguing speculation at thispoint.
Joe (38:05):
So uh we consider the Book of Revelation, with its
apocalyptic visions and symboliclanguage, has long fascinated
theologians and astronomersalike.
In Revelation 8 (38:16):
10- 11, John the Evangelist describes a
cataclysmic event, saying, Thethird angel sounded his trumpet,
and a great star blazing felllike a torch from the sky on a
third of heavens, or I shouldsay the third of the rivers, and
on the springs of water.
The name of the star isWormwood.
(38:37):
A third of the waters turnedbitter, and many people died
from the waters that had becomebitter.
That's what John wrote when hesaw the stars fall from heaven.
What he saw were meteoritesfalling through the atmosphere.
He also said he saw the moonturn to blood, which is yet
another completemisunderstanding of a scientific
phenomenon.
(38:58):
And because of our growth inscientific knowledge today, we
understand that this object mostlikely could be, even if we're
not exactly sure, but could verywell be the appearance of a
comet.
Laurie (39:12):
So this passage with its vivid descriptions invites both
literal and symbolicinterpretations, and your
question draws attention to thepossibility that what John
witnessed was not a star in themodern sense, but rather an
astronomical body, an asteroid,a meteor or comet.
So let us explore this idea uhth you know thoughtfully.
Joe (39:36):
Joe
describing such astronomicalphenomena was limited by the
knowledge and language of hisera.
The Greek word you know astarwas a catch-all for anything
luminous in the sky.
Stars as well as planets,meteors, comets, and I guess you
(39:57):
could say even if there werespaceships, bright lights in the
sky.
So the notion for uh forasteroid and comet as we
understand them did not exist somuch in the first century
language, and certainly not inthe scientific understanding of
the world.
Another excellent example ofthis is you know the star of
Bethlehem, you know, hoveringover the area of the manger.
(40:20):
If it were an actual event,then the description would not
be of a star because stars don'thover.
Stars don't move, and you don'tfollow stars as they're
traveling across the sky.
You know, they move throughoutthe night uh regularly because
of the the way the earth isrotating, but it's not like it's
right above our heads and we'refollowing it like a like a
(40:43):
little fairy.
So, I mean, is this describingsomething more technological
when they talk about the thestar that is moving and then
hovering?
Is it something technologicalthat was unknown to humankind
back in the first century?
Laurie (40:57):
Yeah, and that's similar to what you brought up about
the historical writings ofJosephus when he said, Don't you
remember that comet thatcircled the earth for an entire
year?
Because we know that cometsdon't circle the earth.
So they saw a light, but theyconsidered it a comet.
You know, that was a brightmind for the for the day back
then in that era, and theythought that that was a comet.
(41:19):
So that was possibly aspaceship that was up there
during the you know the birth ofChrist and whatnot, or during
that whole era.
So, thus, when John described,like you said, a star falling
from heaven, you know, blazinglike a torch, so it is plausible
that he was attempting toexplain the spectacle of a comet
(41:40):
with a long fiery tail or theincandescence in of a of a
meteor or asteroid enteringEarth's atmosphere.
So such phenomena would indeedappear as a burning object
trailing light, potentiallyresembling a torch to these uh
ancient eyes that that beholdit.
Joe (42:00):
Joe
little bit different than starsbecause of the tail, because of
the glow.
It's a little bit different, itsticks out.
So they would identify them asdifferent objects, uh, even if
their understanding of what youknow they were comp of which
they were composed or how theymoved wasn't completely
understood.
They might call that a comet asopposed to a star.
(42:22):
Again, just to point out thedifference in the in the objects
in the sky.
So this wormwood, you know, isit a literal thing?
Is it a symbolic thing?
Is it describing a cosmic event?
This name evokes bitterness.
And in biblical literature,wormwood is a plant, it's known
(42:44):
for its intensely bitter taste,and it's used to symbolize
sorrow and calamity, it'sassociated with bad things.
So John writes that this starturns a third of the waters
bitter and causing many deaths.
So the text does not explicitlystate that this is a comet or
an asteroid doing this, but theimagery of something blazing,
(43:08):
falling, and causing what wouldbe an environmental devastation,
this does resonate withdescriptions of large meteors or
comets impacting the Earth.
Case in point, the dinosaurextinction model from 66 million
years ago when a very largeasteroid did collide with the
Earth, and it had changed the uhecosystem for eternity to this
(43:32):
day.
So if three eye atlas, youknow, which is currently an
interstellar comet, if this wereto intersect our path, Earth's
path, and impact it, we know theeffects would be extremely
catastrophic.
So could this bitterness thatJohn is talking about, the
bitterness of the waters, bereferring to what would be
chemical changes and such thatit would be the release of
(43:56):
toxicity, substances that arepoisonous and going into the
water sources uh after such animpact, and of course the water
being poisoned would you know bevery devastating to uh not only
human life but animal life andplant life, as is evidenced from
what we found in the studies ofpaleontology in reference to
(44:17):
the impact 66 million years agowith the extinction of
dinosaurs.
Laurie (44:22):
Laurie
I mean, such an interpretationis speculative, but within the
bounds of modern imagination, acomet or asteroid could fit
John's description in ways hecould not have precisely
articulated back then.
So, I mean, let's look again atthe sequence of trumpet
judgments in Revelation 8 and 9.
(44:44):
You have the first trumpet withthat one, hail and fire mixed
with blood, burning a third ofthe earth's vegetation.
Then you have the secondtrumpet, which is a blazing
mountain, is hurled into thesea, turning a third of it to
blood, killing sea life anddestroying ships.
And that blazing mountain camefrom space as well, according to
(45:07):
the scriptures.
The third trumpet is wormwood,the star slash torch that we're
talking about.
It falls and poisons the freshwater.
The fourth trumpet is a thirdof the sun, moon, and stars are
now darkened and diminishinglight on Earth.
So if something crashing intothe moon, I also heard that
(45:28):
there's a possible comet nowthat may come and crash into the
moon, and they're concernedabout that because of the damage
it may cause to our to our onlysatellite out there right now.
So, and or will some ship blockout part of the sun and the
moon, moon's light?
So, I mean, these escal is asuh these cascading disasters
(45:49):
could be interpreted as a as aas a poetic symbolic portrayal
of divine judgment, or as asequence triggered by
astronomical events.
So this significant impactcauses firestorms, atmospheric
pollution, and ecologicaldevastation.
The mountain ablaze might evokean asteroid plunging into the
(46:11):
ocean.
The torch-like star could evokea cometary impact poisoning
waters, the subsequent darknessmight point to atmospheric
debris blocking sunlight, akinto what is theorized in uh
impact winter scenarios.
So the vision becomes even moreextraordinary with the fifth
trumpet, which is a star thatfalls to earth, but this star uh
(46:35):
unlocks the abyss from whichsmoke and locust like creatures
pour forth.
So traditional interpretationssee these as demonic beings, but
you you propose an alternative.
Could John, with his ancientworldview, have been describing
(46:55):
the arrival of something alien,either in origin or in
manifestation.
The text describes unnaturalentities armored and crowned
swarming forth in the wake ofcosmic disaster.
Similarly, the uh sixth trumpetreleases four angels bound at
the Euphrates rivers, leading toan army with breastplates of
(47:17):
fiery colors.
You know, whether thisdescribes further supernatural
judgment, symbolic forces ofconquest, or events yet to be
imagined remains a matter oftheological debate and
speculation.
But these stars come from thesky, crash to earth, and then we
see these uh horde of beingsthat it's like I don't know,
(47:40):
like capsules that crash, thecapsules bury into the earth,
and then they open up, and thenall of a sudden these uh hordes
of like alien beings lookinglike grasshoppers come out.
Joe (47:53):
Joe
things happening here on earthwith things that are occurring
in the in the heavens.
So it's these things thathappen on earth that are
devastating, they start up inthe sky.
And that seems to be theconsistent theme with with these
visions with thiseschatological and apocalyptic
(48:13):
literature.
And of course, we understandRevelation's visions are highly
symbolic and they're open tomultiple interpretations on
spiritual and literal levels,usually a blend of both.
And many theologians cautionagainst linking current
astronomical uh sightings andobjects in the sky to specific
(48:35):
prophecies.
I tend to agree.
The text's primary purpose isto convey ultimate truths about
you know spiritual matters,about moral judgment, about
personal redemption, uh, youknow, essentially the
universality of the gospel, hoperather than you know, hope for
mankind.
They do this more so than serveas some kind of coded forecast
(48:58):
about astronomical calamities inthe future.
So I think it's both naturaland and fruitful to explore how
ancient visions might align withmodern scientific
understanding, but it's such abroad you know umbrella that
we're talking about with youknow the understanding of
history, astronomy, philosophy,and ancient, you know, uh
(49:23):
mysticism, ancient mythology, itencompasses all of that
together.
So you know, I would agree thatyou know these aren't
one-to-one correlations ofwhatever is in revelation to
what is happening, because youknow, we've had these things
happen uh on our earth you knowsince the beginning of time.
In fact, we talk about theextinction of the dinosaurs,
(49:44):
that was long before humans wereeven on earth, long before any
scriptural writings were wereput in place.
Laurie (49:53):
Laurie
So, John's vision of Wormwoodreads with the awe and mystery
of celestial catechism, hewrote as one awestruck by the
heavens using the vocabulary andimagery available to him.
You know, whether wormwood is aliteral comet, asteroid, or a
symbol of divine judgment, thepassage remains a powerful
(50:16):
testament to the age-old humanimpulse to find meaning in the
stars and to interpret the uhunknown through the lens of
vision, faith, andmanifestation.
Joe (50:29):
Yeah, so whether you know 3I-Atlas or any other comet will
ever bear the name Wormwood, Iguess that's a question that you
know is going to be shrouded inmystery.
Uh it is much about thephilosophy of science as it is
about esotericism.
So, we must strike a balancebetween you know trusting expert
consensus and also remainingopen to unconventional ideas
(50:50):
while always demanding rigorousevidence.
And if three Atlas is anythingother than a comet, then the
search for truth depends oncritical thinking, uh, humility,
and uh on a willingness toquestion assumptions, even those
of institutionalized science,which I think we we do here on
this show.
La (51:10):
Laurie
Revelation is not solely aboutthe mechanics of a disaster, but
about uh spiritualpreparedness, the consequences
of human actions in the hope ofthe ultimate renewal.
But anyway, some will saythat's impossible.
But is it, according toastrobiologist Karen J.
Meach, who spoke at a TEDconference or technology,
(51:34):
entertainment and design, wherethe world's thinkers get to
share their ideas to the worldin 18 minutes or less about
technology, science, design,business, and other topics can
be applied to the problemsfacing our world today.
Mech discussed how the PanStars, the S T A R R S
Telescope, Panoramic SurveyTelescope and Rapid Response
(51:56):
System, detected Omo Moa back onOctober 19, 2017.
And naturally, everyone wasquite excited about the idea of
some something coming fromoutside our solar system, which
is why they wanted to name itRama.
Now, if now, at first I thoughtthis was strange for these
astronomers to want to name itafter a fictional spaceship.
(52:20):
The fact is, rendezvous withRama may have been akin to
Clark's prophecy that detailingthe arrival of a Moomoa.
So, as you said, the there wasa book that was published in
1973, and it described a massivecylindrical-shaped ship that
came tumbling into our solarsystem near the sun.
(52:41):
And astronauts wanted to findout what it was.
It was airily similar indeed tohow a moomoa seemed to arrive.
And it came into our solarsystem from a very high angle
and it traveled by the sun andpassed on an inside of Mercury
and then by Earth at a distanceof only 15 million miles.
(53:02):
Then it did something reallystrange.
It accelerated as it rushedpast Earth.
So, how did it propel itselfout of here?
So, what if the civilizationthat sent Atlas is one of the
ones that received our firstradio signal transmitted by City
back in 1974, almost 50 yearsago?
And within 30 to 40 years, theywere advanced enough to send
(53:25):
the craft to the to the sourceof those radio frequencies.
So, yes, and I think they justI mean it is possible for it to
have been sent here by anadvanced alien race from
somewhere in the Lyraconstellation, since that's
where it uh it travels from.
And it would not be impossiblebecause I believe now they're
(53:45):
saying that they're thinkingthat this wow signal that they
received back several years ago,a couple of decades ago, could
be from 3i Atlas.
Joe (53:56):
Joe
And then this, you know,there's a hypothesis that you
know the reason Omoa Moaaccelerated the way it did back
in 2017 is that was due torelease of nitrogen gas,
essentially gave it a boost.
That that was the boost itneeded.
And its close passage to thesun would have increased its
(54:17):
surface temperature, causing iceto sublimate and you know allow
these streams of nitrogen toescape and thus propel it in
such a manner, enough even toalter its course, so that it
would have you know an increasein speed, and if it went to a
more narrow trajectory past theperihelion.
So no such streams of gas weredetected.
That's one of the problems withthe hypothesis.
(54:39):
NASA researchers believe thatit, you know, if there were
enough gas pressure, it couldhave caused an increase without
being detectable.
Again, this is now gettingrather speculative, as there's
no evidence to support that.
And Avi Loeb and Shmuel Baileypostulated in an article back in
2018 in the astrophysicaljournal letters that the
(55:03):
acceleration of Oumuamua mayhave been from the pressure of
particle radiation from the sun.
And that's what Avi Loebmentioned, the uh notion of this
you know solar wind sail, isyou know, and kind of just
coming down to the point wherethey they have a lot of uh
speculation, a lot of ideas.
(55:24):
Most of them are not reallysupported by uh data that's been
you know detected or uhrecorded.
Lauri (55:33):
Laurie
collection from the Keplersatellite, there are about a
quarter of stars slash suns thathave Earth-like planets
orbiting them, and and that theymay have had previous
civilizations.
And Oumuamua may very well be arelic, you know, along with
Borisov and 3i Atlas, uh relicsof those so-called civilizations
(55:57):
that may have produced, thatmay have produced it, so which
could uh have been some type ofuh engine design and is now you
know just a piece of space junk.
But like I said, I cannot getthe trajectory out of my head on
all three of them, andtherefore, you know, I find it
difficult to believe it doesn'thave operational intelligence
(56:18):
behind it, and it could bewrong, of course.
And so, I mean, but but whywould anyone want to ridicule
those who think it may be anextraterrestrial craft?
Because at some point it's justas good a theory as as any
other, because we're if theypass by, if Tri Atlas continues
on, we're still not gonna know.
We're just gonna uh assume thatit's you know that NASA and the
(56:41):
government was right, or wechoose to believe Avi Lob.
Unless it comes there and ithovers above our planet, then
then we'd know.
Joe (56:50):
Joe
Like I said, at this point, wedon't have enough data to really
uh solidify any one hypothesis.
There's there are many of them,and we we really lack the data
to kind of back up uh all ofthem.
The the bottom line is we don'texactly sure what a Moa Moa,
Borisov, or Atlas really are.
In most ways, they all appearto be natural objects, and and
(57:12):
probably are, yet they aremoving in ways that Newtonian
physics does not predict.
So we have to recognize thatfor what it is.
Could something else behappening?
And if so, you know, then what?
And what if it does turn out tonot be natural?
How do we respond to that, andhow do we mentally process that?
Lauri (57:32):
Laurie
always provisional, awaiting thenext surprise from the cosmos.
And as we peer skyward, we mustremember that not knowing is
not the same as being deceived,and the unknown, rather than
being a source of fear, can bean invitation to wonder.
Joe (57:52):
Yeah, and ultimately you, the audience, must decide what
you think from what has beenpresented by the scientific
community and from people likeus who are examining these s
stories and and kind of goingthrough the the information
that's out there.
Is three eye atlas an alienspacecraft occupied by
(58:13):
intelligent life forms?
Could it be something like adrone or a probe droid,
something not biological butunder the control of automation
or even AI?
Or is it a piece of discardedspace junk from a larger
spaceship, like the StarshipEnterprise, somewhere far away
in another system?
Or is it just a measly oldcomet, maybe a rogue comet?
(58:34):
I suppose we'll find out in acouple of months, you know, by
Christmas.
And that will that will wrap upthe show for today, folks.
Uh and we want to thank you allfor joining us.
And uh we'll we'll find out ifthis thing uh is what it you
know what it is in a few months,and like I said, by Christmas.
La (58:52):
Laurie
about it.
Instead of Santa Claus comingto town, it'd be, you know.
Joe (58:59):
Joe
3I-Atlas is coming to town.
Laurie (59:02):
Gonna find out who's not here, nice.
Separate the chaffe from thewheat.
Joe (59:07):
Joe
So thank you folks for joiningus.
Stay safe and always staycurious.
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