October 5, 2025 • 43 mins
The stories we inherit about money can be louder than any spreadsheet, and today we put those stories under a kinder light with financial therapist Lindsay Bryan-Podvin. From the shock of a first paycheck that doesn’t match the essential work behind it to the quiet panic of opening a bank app, we trace how culture, family, and systems shape what we think we “should” feel about money - and how that clashes with reality. Lindsay brings a rare blend of social work training and practical money wisdom to unpack the bootstraps myth, why safety nets reduce anxiety, and how joy—not just income—should guide financial decisions.
We dig into the difference between happiness and joy, the point where “more” stops working, and why consumer wins feel good but don’t last. Lindsay breaks down financial trauma with clarity and compassion, explaining how chronic stress and even epigenetics can echo as scarcity habits across generations. If you’ve ever felt guilty spending even when you’re stable, or found yourself hoarding cash “just in case,” you’ll hear a path toward balance: name the pattern, run tiny experiments in safety, and let your nervous system catch up to your numbers.
You’ll also get concrete steps you can use today. Avoidance isn’t laziness—it’s a coping tool that needs a better job description. We talk automation (bill pay, savings, minimums) to shrink money tasks into quick check-ins, and a simple rule for late starters: pick one goal and do it well before adding the next. Along the way, we highlight Lindsay’s workshops, her book The Financial Anxiety Solution, and a free money personality quiz to help you spot strengths and sticking points.
If you’re ready to swap shame for clarity and build a calmer relationship with money, press play. Then share your biggest money myth and the one habit you’ll automate this week. Subscribe, leave a review, and pass this episode to someone who needs a softer, smarter way to think about money.
Thank you for stopping by. Please visit our website: All About The Joy and add, like and share. You can also support us by shopping at our STORE - We'd appreciate that greatly. Also, if you want to find us anywhere on social media, please check out the link in bio page.
Music By Geovane Bruno, Moments, 3481
Editing by Team A-J
Host, Carmen Lezeth
DISCLAIMER: As always, please do your own research and understand that the opinions in this podcast and livestream are meant for entertainment purposes only. States and other areas may have different rules and regulations governing certain aspects discussed in this podcast. Nothing in our podcast or livestream is meant to be medical or legal advice. Please use common sense, and when in doubt, ask a professional for advice, assistance, help and guidance.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carmen Lezeth (00:00):
Hi everyone, welcome to All About the Joy.
This is the Private Lounge, andtoday's guest is Lindsay Brian
Podvin.
She is a financial therapist.
She is also the founder andowner of Mind Money Balance.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Okay, hi.
It's so nice to meet you,Lindsay.
(00:20):
Um I usually do this wholething about all about the joy,
blah, blah, blah but I'll dothat beforehand so we can just
have like a regularconversation.
You know what I mean?
But um I just want to tellpeople that the way we kind of
sort of met was because we wereboth in, I forget the name of
it, but we don't need the name,but it was a grant program thing
of a J, right?
It was, yeah, it was theconfidence project.
(00:42):
Right.
And so I ended up leaving that,and when I left, I kind of
wrote a note and then peoplereached out and I was like, oh
my God, this is so cool.
I get to meet these amazingpeople.
So I wanted to just first ofall, let me just say your full
name.
Sure.
Lindsay okay, Lindsay BrianPodvin.
Yeah, you used it.
Well done.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I I suck at the names.
(01:03):
Let me just tell you, I suck atthem.
I'm horrible.
No, you got it, you got it.
Um, and you own a companycalled Mind Money Balance.
Yes, I do.
You have an amazing book, whichI just ordered, the financial
anxiety solution.
Um, I I have some basicquestions just to start off
because I want to know what drewyou to the financial world to
(01:26):
start with and how you made thatconnection because you're doing
financial therapy.
So I want to talk a little bitabout that.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (01:32):
Yeah, of course.
So I did not know I was goingto go into financial therapy
because it was not a thing whenI went to grad school.
So I got my MSW.
So I have a master's degree insocial work, and I wanted to
specialize in helping folks withanxiety and depression.
And in my first job out of gradschool, I got my first
(01:56):
paycheck.
I was so proud of myself.
And it was less than what Imade when I was a waitress.
And, you know, this is not anuncommon story for anyone in a
helping or healing profession,you know, nurses, teachers,
social workers, anybody who isdoing an essential job, but is
often paid uh an unessentialwage understands that gap.
(02:22):
Um and so, you know, in mywork, I was helping people with
depression and anxiety.
And then personally, I wasliving paycheck to paycheck.
And I'm privileged enough thatthat was one of the first times
that I'd experienced that typeof stress.
But it impacted me not just interms of how I moved throughout
my day, but it impacted mymental health, it impacted my
(02:45):
physical health.
I'm very open that I'vestruggled with depression and
anxiety pretty much sincepuberty.
And up until then, I had aroutine that that worked for me.
I had um coping skills thatworked.
I knew how to sleep and move mybody and take medication and
feed myself and all thesethings, right?
And when I started experiencingthat financial stress, no
(03:08):
surprise to anybody listeningwho's experienced financial
stress, it doesn't just impactyour life when you're looking at
a spreadsheet or your checkingaccount.
It impacts every aspect of yourlife.
So I all of a sudden started toexperience uh depression and
anxiety symptoms, and that thenkind of manifested into colds
(03:28):
and flus and insomnia.
And, you know, in the work thatI was doing as a social worker,
a lot of people were stressedabout money.
And my job was essentially tohelp provide some advocacy,
right?
Here's a flyer for a placewhere you can get food on
Tuesday.
Here is an 800 number you cancall so your electric
(03:48):
electricity stays on.
But there was nothing beyondthat kind of very immediate and
also necessary safety net tohelp them really take a look at
what was going on outside of thesystemic effect of being
underpaid or you know, living ina high cost of living area.
But for some of, you know, fora good number of my clients,
(04:12):
this wasn't a math problem,right?
It wasn't that, oh, I'm notearning enough and I'm spending
too much.
For a lot of them, it was uh aninherited problem, just like we
inherit trauma.
It was a belief that might looklike I don't deserve to have
money, or on the other end ofthings, I'm not allowed to spend
money.
(04:32):
It's not safe for me.
Um, and how do those beliefsimpact what we do with money?
So I I did not want to go intofinance.
I didn't want to become afinancial planner.
Yeah, yeah.
Carmen Lezeth (04:47):
Such a weird bridge, but I love it.
I was just gonna ask the nextquestion.
How did you make thatconnection?
Because I love one of thethings you said about you
understood your privilege, andthen you you hit and understood
a whole different livelihoodwhen it came to your financial
situation.
Absolutely.
How did you make that bridge?
It's so fascinating.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (05:09):
Yeah, it's thank you.
It's um so the the bridge wasthat I tried to fix it with the
tools that were then available.
And this was, you know, beforepodcasts were a big thing,
before there were like personalfinance influencers all over the
internet.
I went to the library, right?
And I checked out armfuls ofbooks on how to manage your
money and you know, theseven-step plan you need to fix
(05:32):
your money life or whatever thecase was.
Right.
And we all know those books.
We all know those talkingheads.
And and what do they tell you?
They say, it's your faultyou're here.
It's because you're drinkingtoo many lattes, it's because
you drive a big truck, it'sbecause you can't stop yourself
from buying bags and shoes, butit doesn't go beyond that.
(05:53):
So while those basic buildingblocks were helpful, making sure
that you could do the verybasic algebra that is needed in
order to make sure you'reearning enough to cover your
expenses, a lot of it was justblaming the individual.
And as a social worker, youknow, my my training was it is
(06:16):
never an individual's solefault, right?
For for the situation that theyare in.
And how do these other systems,our yeah, go ahead.
Carmen Lezeth (06:28):
A little bit about that though, because I
think a lot of people would say,pull yourself up by your
bootstraps, you know, the wholething, yeah.
Stop drinking all those lattes,Lindsay.
Like totally.
So can you talk a little bitmore on that?
On why it's not always anindividual's fault for the
circumstances.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (06:46):
Yes, I would love to.
So so you just said somethingthat is so familiar to anybody
who is raised in the US or wasraised with parents who who
bought that message around thisAmerican dream, which is if you
work hard, anybody can make ithere.
You can pull yourself up byyour bootstraps.
But we know that that is amyth.
(07:09):
There isn't that is actuallynot a fact.
If you look at economicmobility, upwards economic
mobility, odds are if you areborn into a socioeconomic class,
you will also end your timehere on earth in that
socioeconomic class.
In other words, the myth thatCEOs love to tout is I was born
(07:31):
in poverty, I worked my way up,and eventually I climbed the
ladder and now am amultimillionaire.
And if I can do it, so can you,right?
Carmen Lezeth (07:41):
I'm gonna pinpoint someone.
Elon Musk is a great example ofthat kind of storyline.
I just want to give peoplesomething tangible to listen to.
So go ahead, I'm sorry.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvi (07:51):
Absolutely.
Yes, and it's so so we believethat so wholeheartedly that even
if we in our minds go, oh, Idon't agree with that, I believe
that it's hard to move up.
Um, I get what it's like tostruggle.
It is in the air that webreathe in this country, and we
(08:15):
are constantly judging ourselvesand our neighbors for financial
decisions because of thisbelief, right?
If somebody comes home with ashiny new vehicle and we live in
the same neighborhood and we wethink we have an idea of what
kind of job they have, we'rewe're making a lot of
assumptions and a lot ofjudgments about them.
We're potentially thinking, ohmy gosh, they must have a really
(08:37):
great job that I had no ideaabout and they're doing so much
better than me.
But we can't actually knowthat.
But because the myth that wehave been sold is if you have a
nice thing, it's because youworked really hard to get it.
It's really hard for us to evenimagine other possibilities for
how that particular shiny newcar ended up in their driveway.
It could be that it's uh avehicle that their company gave
(09:02):
them.
It could be that they are indebt up to their eyeballs and
they don't care about taking outanother line of credit.
It could be that they have somegenerational wealth that they
have been quiet about, right?
We can't actually know, butbecause that is the story that
so many of us believe, weassume, gosh, they're just a
harder worker than I am.
Right.
And then people also use thatmaterialistic thing.
Carmen Lezeth (09:25):
Oh, it's fine to have your dog in the back.
I know.
Sorry.
Um, but I think the other thingthat happens is that then when
people have that new car orwhatever, it makes them feel
good, right?
Because it makes us feel goodto have material stuff,
especially if we don't ever haveit.
And so that compounds thatbelief system.
Yeah.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (09:45):
And on top of that, you're you're speaking
this language of consumerismequals being a good patriot,
right?
Yeah.
If I buy things, I feel goodabout myself, but I'm also
stimulating my the economy.
You know, rewind back fiveyears ago, the best thing any of
us could do during lockdown andpre-vaccine was buy stuff,
(10:06):
right?
Right, right.
Spend your dollars, move thatmoney around the economy.
So we have this like veryinteresting relationship with
commerce and things andmaterialism.
So then back to your initialquestion of uh or or you know,
request of how can you breakthis down?
What are the other things thatimpact our relationship with
(10:28):
money?
That's like the very outerlayer of the things that impact
our relationship with money arethe cultural norms that we
believe.
And then underneath that, weall have different exposures
that also shape what we thinkand feel and believe about
money, where we did or did notgo to church or practice our
spirituality.
Did you go somewhere where theysaid money is the root of all
(10:49):
evil or where you were requiredto tithe and give 10% of your
income?
Wow.
Um, you know what did it meanat the family barbecue if, you
know, your uncle was asking for20 bucks or 50 bucks from your
dad?
Was that normal?
Was that shameful?
Were you not allowed to sharemoney between family members?
(11:10):
Like what were the other thingsthat impacted why you do what
you do?
So so this idea that if youjust work hard and follow these
five steps, that you'll be okayfinancially is fundamentally a
myth that's perfectly.
Carmen Lezeth (11:26):
It's a myth, but I can also just attest to it for
myself.
I have worked hard since dayone, and people know my story,
so I'm not gonna bore you withit.
But it's kind of that thingwhere if anyone has worked hard
to be a gazillionaire right now,it is me.
And it's a lot of people whogrow up working hard doing the
best they can no matter theircircumstances.
Absolutely.
(11:47):
So it's not really about that100%.
Before we go forward, do I wantto do you think this is just an
American thing?
Because you were, you know,that kind of ethos that we're
talking about is a very unitedstate ethos.
But is it possible that it'sglobal?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (12:02):
Yeah, it's a it's a really good question.
And this is where my my mysociologist hat gets really
excited.
So I did my undergradate insociology.
Um so we all have differentmoney stories depending on where
we grew up, but like what thatoverarching message is may shift
from from place to place andfrom country and culture to
(12:22):
country and culture.
Um, so you know, our neighborsto the north of us, I'm based in
Michigan, so Canada is verynearby.
They have a pretty similarmoney story to us, honestly.
Like hard work can help youwith upward mobility, but the
difference is they have a verystrong social safety net.
So their neighbors aren't goinginto bankruptcy if they have a
(12:45):
broken leg.
Whereas here, that is a veryreal thing that can happen.
So while they may And there'sno shame in it, you got it.
Exactly.
Because everybody has this samebaseline.
So while they may have some ofthat belief of to be a good
Canadian, I work hard and I makea good living, they also don't
(13:06):
have the same um gaps in theirin their social safety net.
They don't have as far to fall,is the better way to put it.
So with that additionalsupport, you you quite literally
feel better, right?
If you know that you know, youmight have to wait a little bit
(13:26):
longer to get into PT for thatbroken leg, but you literally
won't be bankrupted over it orlose your house over it, it's
easier to move through the worldwithout that type of incredibly
real financial stress.
If you look over across thepond at many Western European
countries, what's reallyinteresting there is we have
this very uh natural socialexperiment that happened after
(13:48):
the Great Recession, right?
That impacted everyone.
Right, right.
And when we look at rates ofthings like depression and
loneliness in the United Statescompared to in Western Europe
right after the Great Recession,they also had that tremendous
crash and they also had theirmarkets rocked and people were
(14:10):
laid off and all of that.
And their rates of depressionwere not nearly as high as ours
in the United States.
And um, what researchers foundwas that it was because, again,
they had their basic needscovered.
They knew that their kids weregonna have child care, they knew
that they would be able to befed, they knew that their
medications weren't going to becut off.
(14:31):
And so having a strong socialsafety net just means you cannot
fall as far as we can fallhere.
So I I can already hear some ofthe emails I'll get.
Carmen Lezeth (14:40):
Um, yeah.
Because we have a lot of umsupporters that run the gamut of
the political spectrum.
Um so I'll say it this way (14:48):
a lot of people say that's
socialism.
We don't want socialism.
And without getting intopolitics or whatever, there is
something that you said that'sreally interesting, and I'm
gonna paraphrase it a bit.
It's like the social kind ofcontract that we have with each
other should be I want to takecare of people if they have a
broken leg.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (15:08):
100%.
And and I think it's alsoreally important to just like
zooming way back out, just toremind folks that socialism one
of the things that I think isimportant to think about is like
unfettered capitalism, which iswhat we have in the United
States, means anyone can be richand anyone can be poor.
(15:28):
Socialism is anyone can berich, but no one can be poor.
So the floor is just different.
So what you're talking about ishaving an inherent worth and
dignity that you believe everysingle human being has,
regardless of what their job isor isn't.
(15:51):
Um, and and as Americans, wehave a really hard time with
that.
We have a really, really toughtime with that because it has
been pushed into us time andtime again.
I mean, I'm a small businessowner, right?
So I know what it is to earnmoney and to make money and to
pay my quarterly taxes.
And, you know, I I also don'tthink that my neighbor should
(16:12):
have to go bankrupt if their legbreaks.
Like those two things cancoexist.
Right.
Carmen Lezeth (16:18):
And I think that's kind of an interesting
part of it too, because I love,I love, I love, I love so I I
work with uh A-list celebritiesand people of high-end wealth,
basically organizing andmanaging their people, right?
Yeah.
So the weird thing is thatpeople think if you have a lot
of money, you're happier.
(16:39):
That's another American thingthat we tell people.
It's a very American thing.
It's very American.
I want you to talk about thatas well.
About this idea that if you dohave the car and you do have the
shiny new thing, um, you'rebetter off than just me, small
business owner who's, you know,struggling along along doing her
thing, you know what I mean?
(16:59):
With simple stuff.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (17:00):
Yeah.
So oh so oh my gosh, you'reasking such great questions.
I'm really loving this.
Oh good.
So to be to be clear too forfor everyone listening, I also
like buying things.
I have fun when I get somethingnew that makes me feel good
because I'm I'm also human.
Um and there's something reallyinteresting about money and
(17:23):
happiness is that going back toconsumerism and the American
dream and and being a goodcitizen and being a good
patriot, we've been sold thisidea that if you have more
money, you'll be happier.
And at first, that is usuallytrue, right?
If you are strugglingfinancially, it is true that you
will probably be happier if youfinally have an emergency fund.
(17:45):
It is very true that if yourcar used to break down all the
time and now you can afford acar that gets you from point A
to point B and you're notworried about breaking down on
the side of the road, you'll behappier, right?
All of those things areabsolutely true.
And when it comes to having thenext material thing, that's
where the research gets a bit, abit muckier.
(18:07):
It does not mean that we allhave to, you know, be kumbaya
living on a commune, not youknow, not participating in the
economy.
That is not what I'm saying.
And I think sometimes we getmixed up of like, oh, I'm either
somebody who wants a yacht or Ihave to like, you know, live on
a commune, and then those arethe only two options, but
(18:29):
they're not.
So so going back to if I havethis thing, then I'll feel
happier.
It's really tricky for usbecause at first that we usually
do get that reinforcementbecause money in so many
instances just makes lifeeasier.
And once your basic needs aremet, and then some you have that
cushion.
So now you've got the reliablecar, now you're able to afford
(18:51):
healthy, organic, locally growngroceries.
You know your kids are going toschools where they are safe and
also enriched, right?
Like once you have thosethings, then the return on
investment in terms of what youspend and how happy you feel is
much less clear.
It does not mean you should nottake that nice vacation that
(19:12):
you've really wanted and to turnyour phone off and put your
feet up and have a nice tropicaldrink.
Absolutely, you can and shoulddo that.
But it is imperative to startconsidering what are other ways
that you can get happinessoutside of, you know, upgrading
that car or, you know, getting abigger house.
(19:33):
Um, because it just does notwork that way.
So it's a it's complicated, butit's not.
It's like as soon as it makesbecause you're gonna keep
getting happier as you earnmore, and then it levels off
over time.
Carmen Lezeth (19:46):
It levels off because, and you you have no
reason to know this, but mybelief system is happiness is
what happens to you, it's anexternal thing.
Yeah, so you can buy all thematerial stuff you want, but
happiness is fleeting.
Yeah, it goes in and out, it'sthe it's the opposite of
sadness.
And I know a lot of wealthypeople who are not happier than
(20:08):
some of my poorest friends,yeah.
Um, and joy is what people wantto go after, right?
Joy is something we can allcontrol.
It doesn't matter what kind ofmoney you have, and I think
that's I mean, that's why wenamed the show All About the
Joy.
Let me ask you this because youhave a lot to do with um
helping people.
You said something on yourwebsite, and I apologize if I'm
(20:29):
hacking it, okay, but the deeperissue with trauma and money.
Um, can you explain that alittle bit better?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (20:37):
Like, what do you mean by that?
Sure.
So, you know, trauma has reallybecome a buzzword in in the
cultural zeitgeist over thesepast few years, you know,
everyone's like, everything istrauma.
But so I just want to throwthat disclaimer out there for
everyone who's like, oh, if Ihear the T word one more time,
yeah, it's true, it's true,right?
Right.
So not everything is trauma,and most of us will experience
(21:02):
trauma at some point in ourlife, which means we were
exposed to something, or um,somebody close to us had
something happen that made itseem like or did result in the
end of somebody's life.
So things like a car accidentare things we often think of as
like that is traumatic.
Yes.
And so is something like beingchronically underemployed,
(21:26):
right?
Because you are not surewhether or not you will be able
to cover the things that youneed.
And that is a type of traumabecause if you're not sure if
you won't be able to feedyourself or pay for your rent or
your mortgage, that is yourliteral safety, that is your
literal life on the line.
So, so that's like the the justreminder of trauma is that we
(21:48):
all will experience trauma andnot all of us end up with
post-traumatic stress disorder.
Carmen Lezeth (21:54):
Right.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (21:54):
Right.
There are many differentreasons for that that we do or
don't get it.
But all that to say, financialtrauma, as I hinted at with
being chronically underemployed,can impact our relationship
with money.
And so other examples of waythat trauma shows up and how it
impacts our relationship withmoney is that trauma is also
(22:16):
inherited, meaning we can lookat rat studies and go back
multiple generations and seethat great-great grandpups, I
think is what rats are to theirgreat rat parents, um, impacted
by the trauma that theirgreat-great grand rats
(22:37):
experience, right?
So they will engage in the sametypes of like licking behaviors
or they will engage in the sametypes of fear responses, even
if they weren't exposed to thesame type of trauma.
And when we're talking about arat, we're usually talking about
removing something like food orgiving them a shock when they
get food or water or somethinglike that, right?
But the same is true of humans.
(22:59):
That's why so many of us cantalk about our grandparents or
great-grandparents whoexperienced the Great Depression
and go, oh my gosh, they nevergot over it.
They still saved every scrap offood, every piece of wrapping
paper.
They would reuse their tinfoil.
So even if we personally didnot experience the Great
(23:21):
Depression, if our grandparentsdid, we will also inherit some
of those anxiety and scarcityresponses around money because
it served to protect them,right?
That that is what is itsubconscious?
It's subconscious.
We don't actually epigenetic,which is wild.
It's literally in our genesthat it is passed down.
(23:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's why, you know, greatgrandchildren, grandchildren of
of really intense um traumas,such as the Great Depression or
the Holocaust, or, you know,we're fleeing a political regime
that was not stable.
That's why grandchildren ofthose folks, even though they
(24:03):
never personally experienced it,may have really strong
responses to certain things,whether it is like a chemical
smell, or whether it is um, youknow, some like we we pass those
things down to keep ouroffspring safe.
Um Wow.
I did not realize.
Yeah, it's really incredible.
(24:23):
And and that can also just helpus to give ourselves some grace
because I work with a lot ofclients who will say, like,
Lindsay, I don't understand.
I I am not, I won't let myself,you know, buy a new piece of
furniture or take a vacation,even though cognitively I know I
look in my bank account and Ihave enough money and I'm I'm on
track and I'm doing all theright things, but I'm terrified
(24:45):
that if I buy that new end tableor take that vacation, that
it'll all disappear, or that Iwon't ever be able to make money
again.
Um, these are the people thatwe know when you go out to
dinner with them, they arepanicked the whole time about
whether or not you're going toorder a dessert and try and
split it equally with them,right?
Because now I'm gonna getpersonal because now I'm like,
(25:08):
oh, you're gonna help me, girl.
Carmen Lezeth (25:09):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
I wonder, I like I I alwaysthought it was because I was
brought up Catholic.
I'm I'm not religious anymoreor whatever, but I just the way
I grew up.
Yes, and I had such guilt, Imean, about everything.
And then even when I startedmaking some money, yes.
So is that in my genes, or isthat because of I'm just curious
(25:32):
what your thought process is?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (25:34):
My hypothesis is it's probably both
because you said you wereraised Catholic, but most
people, if you were raisedCatholic, that also tells me
that your parents andorgrandparents were also Catholic,
right?
So you've got generationalguilt that you also got for
yourself, also Reformed Catholicor asked Catholic here.
So I get it, man.
I can feel those confessionbooths.
Carmen Lezeth (25:53):
Um I'm just not religious at all.
No offense to the religiouspeople out there.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (25:57):
No, no, no.
But it and this is, I think,where we it where it becomes
really interesting is you'reasking nature or nurture.
And at the end of the day, theanswer is yes.
Both of those things areimpacting what we do with money,
and it impacts all of the waysthat we move throughout the
world.
So back to the financial traumaof it, a lot of my super savers
(26:19):
have either experience if theyhaven't personally experienced
financial trauma where theytheir livelihood was literally
at stake, their parents,grandparents, or
great-grandparents may have.
And they those parents,grandparents, or
great-grandparents stayed safebecause they held on tightly to
their money, right?
That money, that savings was aliteral lifeline, either out of
(26:40):
a country or um, you know, maybehidden under the mattress for
those times when food was reallytight, right?
That hoarding of money keptthem safe.
Hoarding of money.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it was a safetymechanism.
And so if you're a personlistening to this and you're
going, oh my gosh, I'm I'mstarting to see some of these
things.
What do I do?
(27:01):
One is of course, you know, I'malways, almost always going to
recommend therapy, but also thethe thing to do is just
acknowledge it.
Like it makes sense that I'mholding on tightly to my money
because it kept my grandparentssafe.
And I'm safe financially.
I'm allowed to take that trip.
I'm allowed to buy that endtable.
I'm allowed to have a glass ofwine at dinner, and it won't
(27:25):
ruin me financially.
And I can can extend gratitudeto the people who came before me
for learning that behavior.
And now I'm working onunlearning it.
It's, you know what?
Carmen Lezeth (27:36):
I didn't realize I was gonna learn so much having
this conversation with you.
What the one habit, because Iknow I could be just um reading
this, but I thought I read thatyou really focused on creative
and entrepreneurs.
Is that true?
Or am I making that up in mymind?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (27:53):
No, no, no, you're okay.
I I mean, my my business hasgone through a few iterations
over time.
Um, so there was a point intime where I was working with a
lot of entrepreneurs, and nowI'm really focused on helping
individuals who aretraditionally employed for lack
of a better term, who are theseare the folks who are again,
(28:15):
they're doing okay on paper,financially speaking, but they
just can't let their shoulderscome down.
They just can't take a deepbreath, they just don't trust
themselves.
Um, and and with my financialtherapy practice, it was it was
full with a very lengthy waitlist.
So now I'm working on aone-to-many model, and I have a
five-part workshop series thathelps people really do the
(28:39):
financial well-being 101.
And my hope with it is to takeit into more workplaces who are
values aligned, who care abouttheir workforce, and also want
them to be able to takeadvantage of the things that
they offer, whether it's um aretirement plan or their PTO
(28:59):
benefits, and they're not fullytaking advantage of it, or
they're still experiencing somestress, like that is the space
in which we have so many people.
Carmen Lezeth (29:07):
I have so many clients, and so many people we'd
have to force them to take thetime off.
Absolutely, all the time.
All the time.
Let me just add uh for theaudio, um, it's
mindmoneybalance.com.
Again, mindmoneybalance.com.
You can find out about theworkshop on your website right
now.
Is that correct?
Absolutely.
Um, and also there is a link toher book, but you can also find
(29:29):
it on Amazon, which is where Ifound it.
Um, and the name of the book isthe Financial Anxiety Solution.
I just want to make sure we saythat.
You got it.
Beautiful.
Um, so you are working withindividuals.
So let's say somebody walks inand you know they sign up with
you.
How what's the process?
How does it work?
Um, is it a phone call, Zoomcall?
(29:52):
Is it in person?
Give me kind of the firstmeeting situation that happens
when somebody meets with you,what they can expect.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (30:00):
Sure.
So much like many of yourlisteners are familiar with, I'm
a traditional therapist.
So your first session is goingto look a lot like that.
I work remotely in the state ofMichigan where I have my
clinical license.
And that first session isreally figuring out what is
going on with what you think,feel, or believe about money
(30:22):
that's getting in the way ofyour ability to live your life
the way that you want to liveit.
So really starting to identifywhere they want to be so that we
know not just what we don'twant to do, but what we do want
to do.
What do we want to worktowards?
So in that first session, we'refiguring out what those goals
(30:42):
are.
And I'm also doing a lot oflistening for where some of
these stories may come from,where some of these habits may
have been created, and alsolistening for a person's
strengths.
What are they already doingwell that they're just not
giving themselves credit for?
What are the support systemsthey have in place that we can
make sure we're using as we movetoward achieving these
(31:05):
different financial goals?
I meet with most of my clientsweekly.
Um, and it's typically a bitmore short-term than traditional
psychotherapy because we'rereally honing in on one
particular life domain.
And it doesn't mean that wecan't talk about your
relationships or your work oryour or your spirituality.
(31:26):
It just means the the placewhere we're going to continue
coming back to is money becausethat's what they're coming to me
for.
Carmen Lezeth (31:35):
Right.
So a person that might beinterested, you said usually as
someone who is employed.
I caught that.
Yeah.
May I ask why you don't workwith people who are not employed
who seem to be the people thatmight need the help most?
Good question.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (31:51):
Because for financial therapy, in my
opinion, to really work, we haveto be beyond the math problem
stage.
Okay.
So if I'm thinking, like if Izoom way out before I
specialized in financialtherapy, if a client came to me
and wanted help with anxiety,but they were in crisis.
(32:12):
I was worried that they mightnot be safe to be sent home on
their own.
I wouldn't be able to trustwhether or not they would put
themselves in harm's way.
It is not appropriate for me tosay, tell me how you feel about
that.
Let's fill out this form.
My job is to say there's acrisis here.
We have to get this person intocrisis care before they can
(32:33):
work with me.
And I think about that withfinancial therapy too.
I can talk until I'm blue inthe face about intergenerational
trauma and the stories that weconsume and believe in based on
where we were raised.
But if that person isstruggling to make ends meet,
it's quite frankly for meunethical to tell them, look,
(32:53):
let's unpack this family historyif they are not in a space
where that is the mostclinically appropriate thing to
do.
Carmen Lezeth (33:01):
Right.
And so I'm I'm gonna add itthis way, because I I I had read
that a bit in at first I waslike, wait, what?
And totally was like, then itmade sense.
It's like if you're in asituation where you're
unemployed and you're unable toeven um get to the basics, then
you that's a different problemthat's happening right now.
(33:21):
That's a different problem.
The problem that you'refocused, you can tell me if I'm
wrong.
I'm just talking it in Carmenlanguage.
Yeah, but is more about okay,so so we have an income, maybe
we want more income, um, maybewe want to try to expand.
But really, what we're havingtrouble with is our feelings
about money, our guilt aboutmoney, our trauma about money,
(33:45):
our issues with how we deal withmoney in general, which if you
can get past, and I shouldn'tsay it that way, you can correct
me, but if you can move throughthat, you can then have a
better relationship with money.
And I think that's more whatyou're talking about, right?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (34:02):
You you nailed it, Carbon.
And there, there, to be clear,there are financial therapists
who do work with folks who areat a different income level.
And for me, I don't have thewraparound services to be able
to provide that level of care.
So some financial therapistswill, you know, work in
partnership with a nonprofit whois helping somebody make sure
that they have housing and makesure that they have a resume to
(34:24):
find a job.
Um, so it's not that thatdoesn't happen.
It's just that in my practice,I don't have those types of
supports or services to be ableto provide that in a way that
would really be meaningful.
Carmen Lezeth (34:36):
No, I think also just for any entrepreneurs and
people who are thinking aboutstarting businesses, this is
what it means to be extremelyfocused in your needs and know
exactly what you want to do.
Because I read FinancialTherapist and I was like, oh,
she's gonna help everybody.
Yeah.
And then I started readingmore, and I was like, oh, this
is totally focused.
(34:56):
So I totally get it.
Um, let me ask you thisquestion.
Why do so many people, um, andthis might be a question I
probably should have startedwith, of because I work with so
many people, people ask me tohelp them with their
bookkeeping, which I do not do.
Like it's kind of that samething.
I work with wealth clients, Idon't work with right, you know,
not fence.
I did that 20 years ago, butwhy do people avoid looking at
(35:17):
their bank accounts?
I am shook by this.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (35:21):
So many reasons.
Oh my gosh.
So one is is what I see a lotuh of the folks who are avoiding
it, is because when they'vetried to do it on their own,
they've tried to kind of DIY it,they're they're getting the
results that I shared with you.
I was getting when I firststarted to try and figure out
what the heck was going on withmoney.
(35:41):
They're getting people tellingthem that they're bad, that
they're wrong, that they're notsmart, that they have no
discipline.
And the second they log intotheir bank account or look at
their credit card statement andthey feel like, oh my gosh,
there's a term I don'tunderstand, or there's a
purchase that I don't remember,or uh, I can't believe that
happened.
Oh, they're hearing all thatstuff that is reinforcing that
(36:04):
they're bad and dumb and stupid.
And nobody likes that.
So I never made that community.
Carmen Lezeth (36:10):
When you're looking at your QuickBooks, like
here's the weird thing.
I look at my books every daybecause I handle money and I'm
to the penny.
But yeah, I'm obsessed in adifferent way, but it's so
interesting.
I didn't think about that.
So people will associate theirbank accounts, their credit card
statements, whatever.
It goes back to that gene thingas well, right?
(36:32):
That you talked about.
Um, I never thought of that,Lindsay.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (36:37):
Yes.
Well, I'm happy to have, yeah.
I mean, and and we all do this,Carmen.
Like avoidance is one of thebest short-term coping skills we
have, right?
As soon as, you know, if we getthat text from you and I are
self-employed, but like, youknow, from a boss, right?
We go, oh my gosh, I don't wantto deal with it.
And it feels really good toflip your phone over and push it
(36:58):
away and go back to watchingReal Housewives or whatever.
Right.
Whatever.
Right?
Like that feels really good.
That avoidance means I don'thave to face that thing.
But the problem with money, asyou're well aware and your
listeners are well aware, isevery time we neglect logging
into our checking account orlooking at our QuickBooks or or
checking our credit cardstatements, every single time we
(37:20):
push that off, that pile justkeeps getting bigger.
Yes.
Right.
And then it becomes thisoverwhelming mountain of things
instead of you're saying, Ireconcile my books every day.
It probably takes you two and ahalf minutes max, right?
If you did, because you'redoing it all the time.
But for people who have neverdone it, it's a mountain of
stuff and it's terrifying andit's overwhelming.
(37:42):
So that's the big thing that Isee.
Yeah.
And then for other folks, it isinterestingly, uh, you know,
perfectionism and anxiety arekind of two sides of the same
coin for many people.
Right.
And, you know, there may be aum a perfectionism tendency.
And when I open up thatchecking account or my
(38:03):
QuickBooks or whatever, and Isee it's kind of messy, I'm
like, well, if it can't beperfect, or if I can't do it
right, or if I can't set aside Xpercent for taxes, I'm not
going to do it at all.
Right.
So it's another form, but it'sjust you're you're kind of
viewing it from a differentplace.
But yeah, anytime somebody isengaging in a behavior, I
usually try, no matter howfrustrating that behavior is,
(38:24):
right?
I usually try to go like, howis this helping them?
How is this keeping them safe?
Because we don't do things ashumans because they they don't
work, right?
We we we start these habitsbecause at some point in time
they worked for us.
They felt good, they made usfeel better or less stressed.
And sometimes those thingsdon't keep working, but we don't
(38:47):
examine why.
Carmen Lezeth (38:48):
I always tell people that the reason why I'm
obsessed with the money thing isnot only because I've been
exposed to so many people whoare who have so much wealth and
are so miserable.
For me, it's a control thing.
Yeah.
Like I know where every pennygoes.
And I've started to let up alittle bit because I think
there's something bad about thattoo.
When you get so obsessed that Ikeep every receipt and I know
(39:09):
every penny.
And um, so okay, let me ask yousome because we're waiting.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (39:14):
I just want to jump into what you just
said.
You just gave a perfect examplearound how we get these
behaviors.
You said, I'm a control freak,I like to look at it, I like to
know penny in, penny out.
Yeah.
That worked for you because itprobably allowed you to build up
savings, to pay down, you know,expenses.
And now you're going, actually,I don't have to keep being so
rigid.
I'm allowed to have someflexibility.
(39:36):
So that is a perfect example ofthe financial behavior and how
it worked for you.
And now it's stopping beingquite as effective.
So that is a beautiful example.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Carmen Lezeth (39:54):
Okay, wait.
So I'm gonna ask some questionsbecause I know we have a hard
stop.
Um, what's one habit that youwish more people would adopt?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvi (40:03):
Automation.
Uh turning on automaticsavings, turning on automatic
credit card payments, automaticbill payments.
I think so many of us get intofinancial trouble because we
tell ourselves, I'll remember topay that bill, I'll remember to
pay that person back.
And we're human and we justdon't.
Um, so when it makes sense,make it as easy as possible for
(40:25):
yourself.
I'm a huge automation fan.
And then when I am logging intomy accounts, I'm basically
double checking that everythingstill looks good instead of
feeling like I have to manually,you know, triple check.
Carmen Lezeth (40:36):
Right, do everything, everything.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (40:36):
Yeah, I uh by the way, I do that.
Carmen Lezeth (40:38):
I didn't call it automation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, you can returningtransactions on TikTok.
Absolutely.
Um what's your advice forsomeone who feels like it's too
late in their financial life toget it together?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (40:52):
Uh, you know, it's gonna sound cheesy,
but it is not too late to get ittogether.
And I would pick one thing tofocus on.
What tends to happen whenpeople feel like it's too late
is they're like, okay, well, Ihave to increase my income, pay
off my credit card debt, startcontributing to retirement, zek,
pick one thing to focus on, getmore comfortable, get more
confident with it, and then addon your next financial goal, but
(41:15):
don't try to do it all at once.
Carmen Lezeth (41:17):
Oh my God, thank you so much for coming on the
show.
It's been such a pleasure.
I just feel like we have somuch more to touch base on.
I would love to have you back,as I mentioned before.
Let me give the website onemore time.
It's mindmoneybalance.com.
Please go check it out.
Please buy her book.
Please definitely, if you areinterested, reach out.
(41:39):
And there's an easy contactpage there.
You also have a financial quizon there that you can that
people can take.
Um, so please,mindmoneybalance.com.
Any last words for ourlisteners?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (41:53):
Oh, yeah.
I yeah, you mentioned the quiz,and I'll say that's a great
next step if you're like, Idon't know what to do.
So the quiz, Carmen, that youmentioned helps people
understand a little bit moreabout their money personality
type, and it gives you someinsight to the things you are
probably doing well in someareas that are a little bit
sticky for you.
And it's a good first step tostart thinking about your your
(42:15):
money story or your feelingsabout money.
It's just like to dip your toein the water of yeah, kind of
following up on the conversationwe've had today.
Yeah, it was a free quiz.
Carmen Lezeth (42:24):
It's a free quiz.
So you can go tomindmoneybalance.com and just do
the quiz.
Check it out.
Um, thank you so much, and um,we'll have you back.
Um, everyone, I I'm a littlebit thrown because I didn't
expect this to be such a funconversation about money.
I know, right?
Well, thank you.
I'm I'm glad I surprised you.
(42:45):
I know.
So um, so everyone remember atthe end of the day, it really is
all about the joy, and we'llsee you again next time.
Bye, everyone.
Bye.
Thanks for stopping by, AllAbout the Joy.
Be better and stay beautiful,folks.
Have a sweet day.
Hi everyone, welcome to All About the Joy.
This is the Private Lounge, andtoday's guest is Lindsay Brian
Podvin.
She is a financial therapist.
She is also the founder andowner of Mind Money Balance.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Okay, hi.
It's so nice to meet you,Lindsay.
(00:20):
Um I usually do this wholething about all about the joy,
blah, blah, blah but I'll dothat beforehand so we can just
have like a regularconversation.
You know what I mean?
But um I just want to tellpeople that the way we kind of
sort of met was because we wereboth in, I forget the name of
it, but we don't need the name,but it was a grant program thing
of a J, right?
It was, yeah, it was theconfidence project.
(00:42):
Right.
And so I ended up leaving that,and when I left, I kind of
wrote a note and then peoplereached out and I was like, oh
my God, this is so cool.
I get to meet these amazingpeople.
So I wanted to just first ofall, let me just say your full
name.
Sure.
Lindsay okay, Lindsay BrianPodvin.
Yeah, you used it.
Well done.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I I suck at the names.
(01:03):
Let me just tell you, I suck atthem.
I'm horrible.
No, you got it, you got it.
Um, and you own a companycalled Mind Money Balance.
Yes, I do.
You have an amazing book, whichI just ordered, the financial
anxiety solution.
Um, I I have some basicquestions just to start off
because I want to know what drewyou to the financial world to
(01:26):
start with and how you made thatconnection because you're doing
financial therapy.
So I want to talk a little bitabout that.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (01:32):
Yeah, of course.
So I did not know I was goingto go into financial therapy
because it was not a thing whenI went to grad school.
So I got my MSW.
So I have a master's degree insocial work, and I wanted to
specialize in helping folks withanxiety and depression.
And in my first job out of gradschool, I got my first
(01:56):
paycheck.
I was so proud of myself.
And it was less than what Imade when I was a waitress.
And, you know, this is not anuncommon story for anyone in a
helping or healing profession,you know, nurses, teachers,
social workers, anybody who isdoing an essential job, but is
often paid uh an unessentialwage understands that gap.
(02:22):
Um and so, you know, in mywork, I was helping people with
depression and anxiety.
And then personally, I wasliving paycheck to paycheck.
And I'm privileged enough thatthat was one of the first times
that I'd experienced that typeof stress.
But it impacted me not just interms of how I moved throughout
my day, but it impacted mymental health, it impacted my
(02:45):
physical health.
I'm very open that I'vestruggled with depression and
anxiety pretty much sincepuberty.
And up until then, I had aroutine that that worked for me.
I had um coping skills thatworked.
I knew how to sleep and move mybody and take medication and
feed myself and all thesethings, right?
And when I started experiencingthat financial stress, no
(03:08):
surprise to anybody listeningwho's experienced financial
stress, it doesn't just impactyour life when you're looking at
a spreadsheet or your checkingaccount.
It impacts every aspect of yourlife.
So I all of a sudden started toexperience uh depression and
anxiety symptoms, and that thenkind of manifested into colds
(03:28):
and flus and insomnia.
And, you know, in the work thatI was doing as a social worker,
a lot of people were stressedabout money.
And my job was essentially tohelp provide some advocacy,
right?
Here's a flyer for a placewhere you can get food on
Tuesday.
Here is an 800 number you cancall so your electric
(03:48):
electricity stays on.
But there was nothing beyondthat kind of very immediate and
also necessary safety net tohelp them really take a look at
what was going on outside of thesystemic effect of being
underpaid or you know, living ina high cost of living area.
But for some of, you know, fora good number of my clients,
(04:12):
this wasn't a math problem,right?
It wasn't that, oh, I'm notearning enough and I'm spending
too much.
For a lot of them, it was uh aninherited problem, just like we
inherit trauma.
It was a belief that might looklike I don't deserve to have
money, or on the other end ofthings, I'm not allowed to spend
money.
(04:32):
It's not safe for me.
Um, and how do those beliefsimpact what we do with money?
So I I did not want to go intofinance.
I didn't want to become afinancial planner.
Yeah, yeah.
Carmen Lezeth (04:47):
Such a weird bridge, but I love it.
I was just gonna ask the nextquestion.
How did you make thatconnection?
Because I love one of thethings you said about you
understood your privilege, andthen you you hit and understood
a whole different livelihoodwhen it came to your financial
situation.
Absolutely.
How did you make that bridge?
It's so fascinating.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (05:09):
Yeah, it's thank you.
It's um so the the bridge wasthat I tried to fix it with the
tools that were then available.
And this was, you know, beforepodcasts were a big thing,
before there were like personalfinance influencers all over the
internet.
I went to the library, right?
And I checked out armfuls ofbooks on how to manage your
money and you know, theseven-step plan you need to fix
(05:32):
your money life or whatever thecase was.
Right.
And we all know those books.
We all know those talkingheads.
And and what do they tell you?
They say, it's your faultyou're here.
It's because you're drinkingtoo many lattes, it's because
you drive a big truck, it'sbecause you can't stop yourself
from buying bags and shoes, butit doesn't go beyond that.
(05:53):
So while those basic buildingblocks were helpful, making sure
that you could do the verybasic algebra that is needed in
order to make sure you'reearning enough to cover your
expenses, a lot of it was justblaming the individual.
And as a social worker, youknow, my my training was it is
(06:16):
never an individual's solefault, right?
For for the situation that theyare in.
And how do these other systems,our yeah, go ahead.
Carmen Lezeth (06:28):
A little bit about that though, because I
think a lot of people would say,pull yourself up by your
bootstraps, you know, the wholething, yeah.
Stop drinking all those lattes,Lindsay.
Like totally.
So can you talk a little bitmore on that?
On why it's not always anindividual's fault for the
circumstances.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (06:46):
Yes, I would love to.
So so you just said somethingthat is so familiar to anybody
who is raised in the US or wasraised with parents who who
bought that message around thisAmerican dream, which is if you
work hard, anybody can make ithere.
You can pull yourself up byyour bootstraps.
But we know that that is amyth.
(07:09):
There isn't that is actuallynot a fact.
If you look at economicmobility, upwards economic
mobility, odds are if you areborn into a socioeconomic class,
you will also end your timehere on earth in that
socioeconomic class.
In other words, the myth thatCEOs love to tout is I was born
(07:31):
in poverty, I worked my way up,and eventually I climbed the
ladder and now am amultimillionaire.
And if I can do it, so can you,right?
Carmen Lezeth (07:41):
I'm gonna pinpoint someone.
Elon Musk is a great example ofthat kind of storyline.
I just want to give peoplesomething tangible to listen to.
So go ahead, I'm sorry.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvi (07:51):
Absolutely.
Yes, and it's so so we believethat so wholeheartedly that even
if we in our minds go, oh, Idon't agree with that, I believe
that it's hard to move up.
Um, I get what it's like tostruggle.
It is in the air that webreathe in this country, and we
(08:15):
are constantly judging ourselvesand our neighbors for financial
decisions because of thisbelief, right?
If somebody comes home with ashiny new vehicle and we live in
the same neighborhood and we wethink we have an idea of what
kind of job they have, we'rewe're making a lot of
assumptions and a lot ofjudgments about them.
We're potentially thinking, ohmy gosh, they must have a really
(08:37):
great job that I had no ideaabout and they're doing so much
better than me.
But we can't actually knowthat.
But because the myth that wehave been sold is if you have a
nice thing, it's because youworked really hard to get it.
It's really hard for us to evenimagine other possibilities for
how that particular shiny newcar ended up in their driveway.
It could be that it's uh avehicle that their company gave
(09:02):
them.
It could be that they are indebt up to their eyeballs and
they don't care about taking outanother line of credit.
It could be that they have somegenerational wealth that they
have been quiet about, right?
We can't actually know, butbecause that is the story that
so many of us believe, weassume, gosh, they're just a
harder worker than I am.
Right.
And then people also use thatmaterialistic thing.
Carmen Lezeth (09:25):
Oh, it's fine to have your dog in the back.
I know.
Sorry.
Um, but I think the other thingthat happens is that then when
people have that new car orwhatever, it makes them feel
good, right?
Because it makes us feel goodto have material stuff,
especially if we don't ever haveit.
And so that compounds thatbelief system.
Yeah.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (09:45):
And on top of that, you're you're speaking
this language of consumerismequals being a good patriot,
right?
Yeah.
If I buy things, I feel goodabout myself, but I'm also
stimulating my the economy.
You know, rewind back fiveyears ago, the best thing any of
us could do during lockdown andpre-vaccine was buy stuff,
(10:06):
right?
Right, right.
Spend your dollars, move thatmoney around the economy.
So we have this like veryinteresting relationship with
commerce and things andmaterialism.
So then back to your initialquestion of uh or or you know,
request of how can you breakthis down?
What are the other things thatimpact our relationship with
(10:28):
money?
That's like the very outerlayer of the things that impact
our relationship with money arethe cultural norms that we
believe.
And then underneath that, weall have different exposures
that also shape what we thinkand feel and believe about
money, where we did or did notgo to church or practice our
spirituality.
Did you go somewhere where theysaid money is the root of all
(10:49):
evil or where you were requiredto tithe and give 10% of your
income?
Wow.
Um, you know what did it meanat the family barbecue if, you
know, your uncle was asking for20 bucks or 50 bucks from your
dad?
Was that normal?
Was that shameful?
Were you not allowed to sharemoney between family members?
(11:10):
Like what were the other thingsthat impacted why you do what
you do?
So so this idea that if youjust work hard and follow these
five steps, that you'll be okayfinancially is fundamentally a
myth that's perfectly.
Carmen Lezeth (11:26):
It's a myth, but I can also just attest to it for
myself.
I have worked hard since dayone, and people know my story,
so I'm not gonna bore you withit.
But it's kind of that thingwhere if anyone has worked hard
to be a gazillionaire right now,it is me.
And it's a lot of people whogrow up working hard doing the
best they can no matter theircircumstances.
Absolutely.
(11:47):
So it's not really about that100%.
Before we go forward, do I wantto do you think this is just an
American thing?
Because you were, you know,that kind of ethos that we're
talking about is a very unitedstate ethos.
But is it possible that it'sglobal?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (12:02):
Yeah, it's a it's a really good question.
And this is where my my mysociologist hat gets really
excited.
So I did my undergradate insociology.
Um so we all have differentmoney stories depending on where
we grew up, but like what thatoverarching message is may shift
from from place to place andfrom country and culture to
(12:22):
country and culture.
Um, so you know, our neighborsto the north of us, I'm based in
Michigan, so Canada is verynearby.
They have a pretty similarmoney story to us, honestly.
Like hard work can help youwith upward mobility, but the
difference is they have a verystrong social safety net.
So their neighbors aren't goinginto bankruptcy if they have a
(12:45):
broken leg.
Whereas here, that is a veryreal thing that can happen.
So while they may And there'sno shame in it, you got it.
Exactly.
Because everybody has this samebaseline.
So while they may have some ofthat belief of to be a good
Canadian, I work hard and I makea good living, they also don't
(13:06):
have the same um gaps in theirin their social safety net.
They don't have as far to fall,is the better way to put it.
So with that additionalsupport, you you quite literally
feel better, right?
If you know that you know, youmight have to wait a little bit
(13:26):
longer to get into PT for thatbroken leg, but you literally
won't be bankrupted over it orlose your house over it, it's
easier to move through the worldwithout that type of incredibly
real financial stress.
If you look over across thepond at many Western European
countries, what's reallyinteresting there is we have
this very uh natural socialexperiment that happened after
(13:48):
the Great Recession, right?
That impacted everyone.
Right, right.
And when we look at rates ofthings like depression and
loneliness in the United Statescompared to in Western Europe
right after the Great Recession,they also had that tremendous
crash and they also had theirmarkets rocked and people were
(14:10):
laid off and all of that.
And their rates of depressionwere not nearly as high as ours
in the United States.
And um, what researchers foundwas that it was because, again,
they had their basic needscovered.
They knew that their kids weregonna have child care, they knew
that they would be able to befed, they knew that their
medications weren't going to becut off.
(14:31):
And so having a strong socialsafety net just means you cannot
fall as far as we can fallhere.
So I I can already hear some ofthe emails I'll get.
Carmen Lezeth (14:40):
Um, yeah.
Because we have a lot of umsupporters that run the gamut of
the political spectrum.
Um so I'll say it this way (14:48):
a lot of people say that's
socialism.
We don't want socialism.
And without getting intopolitics or whatever, there is
something that you said that'sreally interesting, and I'm
gonna paraphrase it a bit.
It's like the social kind ofcontract that we have with each
other should be I want to takecare of people if they have a
broken leg.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (15:08):
100%.
And and I think it's alsoreally important to just like
zooming way back out, just toremind folks that socialism one
of the things that I think isimportant to think about is like
unfettered capitalism, which iswhat we have in the United
States, means anyone can be richand anyone can be poor.
(15:28):
Socialism is anyone can berich, but no one can be poor.
So the floor is just different.
So what you're talking about ishaving an inherent worth and
dignity that you believe everysingle human being has,
regardless of what their job isor isn't.
(15:51):
Um, and and as Americans, wehave a really hard time with
that.
We have a really, really toughtime with that because it has
been pushed into us time andtime again.
I mean, I'm a small businessowner, right?
So I know what it is to earnmoney and to make money and to
pay my quarterly taxes.
And, you know, I I also don'tthink that my neighbor should
(16:12):
have to go bankrupt if their legbreaks.
Like those two things cancoexist.
Right.
Carmen Lezeth (16:18):
And I think that's kind of an interesting
part of it too, because I love,I love, I love, I love so I I
work with uh A-list celebritiesand people of high-end wealth,
basically organizing andmanaging their people, right?
Yeah.
So the weird thing is thatpeople think if you have a lot
of money, you're happier.
(16:39):
That's another American thingthat we tell people.
It's a very American thing.
It's very American.
I want you to talk about thatas well.
About this idea that if you dohave the car and you do have the
shiny new thing, um, you'rebetter off than just me, small
business owner who's, you know,struggling along along doing her
thing, you know what I mean?
(16:59):
With simple stuff.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (17:00):
Yeah.
So oh so oh my gosh, you'reasking such great questions.
I'm really loving this.
Oh good.
So to be to be clear too forfor everyone listening, I also
like buying things.
I have fun when I get somethingnew that makes me feel good
because I'm I'm also human.
Um and there's something reallyinteresting about money and
(17:23):
happiness is that going back toconsumerism and the American
dream and and being a goodcitizen and being a good
patriot, we've been sold thisidea that if you have more
money, you'll be happier.
And at first, that is usuallytrue, right?
If you are strugglingfinancially, it is true that you
will probably be happier if youfinally have an emergency fund.
(17:45):
It is very true that if yourcar used to break down all the
time and now you can afford acar that gets you from point A
to point B and you're notworried about breaking down on
the side of the road, you'll behappier, right?
All of those things areabsolutely true.
And when it comes to having thenext material thing, that's
where the research gets a bit, abit muckier.
(18:07):
It does not mean that we allhave to, you know, be kumbaya
living on a commune, not youknow, not participating in the
economy.
That is not what I'm saying.
And I think sometimes we getmixed up of like, oh, I'm either
somebody who wants a yacht or Ihave to like, you know, live on
a commune, and then those arethe only two options, but
(18:29):
they're not.
So so going back to if I havethis thing, then I'll feel
happier.
It's really tricky for usbecause at first that we usually
do get that reinforcementbecause money in so many
instances just makes lifeeasier.
And once your basic needs aremet, and then some you have that
cushion.
So now you've got the reliablecar, now you're able to afford
(18:51):
healthy, organic, locally growngroceries.
You know your kids are going toschools where they are safe and
also enriched, right?
Like once you have thosethings, then the return on
investment in terms of what youspend and how happy you feel is
much less clear.
It does not mean you should nottake that nice vacation that
(19:12):
you've really wanted and to turnyour phone off and put your
feet up and have a nice tropicaldrink.
Absolutely, you can and shoulddo that.
But it is imperative to startconsidering what are other ways
that you can get happinessoutside of, you know, upgrading
that car or, you know, getting abigger house.
(19:33):
Um, because it just does notwork that way.
So it's a it's complicated, butit's not.
It's like as soon as it makesbecause you're gonna keep
getting happier as you earnmore, and then it levels off
over time.
Carmen Lezeth (19:46):
It levels off because, and you you have no
reason to know this, but mybelief system is happiness is
what happens to you, it's anexternal thing.
Yeah, so you can buy all thematerial stuff you want, but
happiness is fleeting.
Yeah, it goes in and out, it'sthe it's the opposite of
sadness.
And I know a lot of wealthypeople who are not happier than
(20:08):
some of my poorest friends,yeah.
Um, and joy is what people wantto go after, right?
Joy is something we can allcontrol.
It doesn't matter what kind ofmoney you have, and I think
that's I mean, that's why wenamed the show All About the
Joy.
Let me ask you this because youhave a lot to do with um
helping people.
You said something on yourwebsite, and I apologize if I'm
(20:29):
hacking it, okay, but the deeperissue with trauma and money.
Um, can you explain that alittle bit better?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (20:37):
Like, what do you mean by that?
Sure.
So, you know, trauma has reallybecome a buzzword in in the
cultural zeitgeist over thesepast few years, you know,
everyone's like, everything istrauma.
But so I just want to throwthat disclaimer out there for
everyone who's like, oh, if Ihear the T word one more time,
yeah, it's true, it's true,right?
Right.
So not everything is trauma,and most of us will experience
(21:02):
trauma at some point in ourlife, which means we were
exposed to something, or um,somebody close to us had
something happen that made itseem like or did result in the
end of somebody's life.
So things like a car accidentare things we often think of as
like that is traumatic.
Yes.
And so is something like beingchronically underemployed,
(21:26):
right?
Because you are not surewhether or not you will be able
to cover the things that youneed.
And that is a type of traumabecause if you're not sure if
you won't be able to feedyourself or pay for your rent or
your mortgage, that is yourliteral safety, that is your
literal life on the line.
So, so that's like the the justreminder of trauma is that we
(21:48):
all will experience trauma andnot all of us end up with
post-traumatic stress disorder.
Carmen Lezeth (21:54):
Right.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (21:54):
Right.
There are many differentreasons for that that we do or
don't get it.
But all that to say, financialtrauma, as I hinted at with
being chronically underemployed,can impact our relationship
with money.
And so other examples of waythat trauma shows up and how it
impacts our relationship withmoney is that trauma is also
(22:16):
inherited, meaning we can lookat rat studies and go back
multiple generations and seethat great-great grandpups, I
think is what rats are to theirgreat rat parents, um, impacted
by the trauma that theirgreat-great grand rats
(22:37):
experience, right?
So they will engage in the sametypes of like licking behaviors
or they will engage in the sametypes of fear responses, even
if they weren't exposed to thesame type of trauma.
And when we're talking about arat, we're usually talking about
removing something like food orgiving them a shock when they
get food or water or somethinglike that, right?
But the same is true of humans.
(22:59):
That's why so many of us cantalk about our grandparents or
great-grandparents whoexperienced the Great Depression
and go, oh my gosh, they nevergot over it.
They still saved every scrap offood, every piece of wrapping
paper.
They would reuse their tinfoil.
So even if we personally didnot experience the Great
(23:21):
Depression, if our grandparentsdid, we will also inherit some
of those anxiety and scarcityresponses around money because
it served to protect them,right?
That that is what is itsubconscious?
It's subconscious.
We don't actually epigenetic,which is wild.
It's literally in our genesthat it is passed down.
(23:42):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's why, you know, greatgrandchildren, grandchildren of
of really intense um traumas,such as the Great Depression or
the Holocaust, or, you know,we're fleeing a political regime
that was not stable.
That's why grandchildren ofthose folks, even though they
(24:03):
never personally experienced it,may have really strong
responses to certain things,whether it is like a chemical
smell, or whether it is um, youknow, some like we we pass those
things down to keep ouroffspring safe.
Um Wow.
I did not realize.
Yeah, it's really incredible.
(24:23):
And and that can also just helpus to give ourselves some grace
because I work with a lot ofclients who will say, like,
Lindsay, I don't understand.
I I am not, I won't let myself,you know, buy a new piece of
furniture or take a vacation,even though cognitively I know I
look in my bank account and Ihave enough money and I'm I'm on
track and I'm doing all theright things, but I'm terrified
(24:45):
that if I buy that new end tableor take that vacation, that
it'll all disappear, or that Iwon't ever be able to make money
again.
Um, these are the people thatwe know when you go out to
dinner with them, they arepanicked the whole time about
whether or not you're going toorder a dessert and try and
split it equally with them,right?
Because now I'm gonna getpersonal because now I'm like,
(25:08):
oh, you're gonna help me, girl.
Carmen Lezeth (25:09):
Yes, yes, absolutely.
I wonder, I like I I alwaysthought it was because I was
brought up Catholic.
I'm I'm not religious anymoreor whatever, but I just the way
I grew up.
Yes, and I had such guilt, Imean, about everything.
And then even when I startedmaking some money, yes.
So is that in my genes, or isthat because of I'm just curious
(25:32):
what your thought process is?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (25:34):
My hypothesis is it's probably both
because you said you wereraised Catholic, but most
people, if you were raisedCatholic, that also tells me
that your parents andorgrandparents were also Catholic,
right?
So you've got generationalguilt that you also got for
yourself, also Reformed Catholicor asked Catholic here.
So I get it, man.
I can feel those confessionbooths.
Carmen Lezeth (25:53):
Um I'm just not religious at all.
No offense to the religiouspeople out there.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (25:57):
No, no, no.
But it and this is, I think,where we it where it becomes
really interesting is you'reasking nature or nurture.
And at the end of the day, theanswer is yes.
Both of those things areimpacting what we do with money,
and it impacts all of the waysthat we move throughout the
world.
So back to the financial traumaof it, a lot of my super savers
(26:19):
have either experience if theyhaven't personally experienced
financial trauma where theytheir livelihood was literally
at stake, their parents,grandparents, or
great-grandparents may have.
And they those parents,grandparents, or
great-grandparents stayed safebecause they held on tightly to
their money, right?
That money, that savings was aliteral lifeline, either out of
(26:40):
a country or um, you know, maybehidden under the mattress for
those times when food was reallytight, right?
That hoarding of money keptthem safe.
Hoarding of money.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it was a safetymechanism.
And so if you're a personlistening to this and you're
going, oh my gosh, I'm I'mstarting to see some of these
things.
What do I do?
(27:01):
One is of course, you know, I'malways, almost always going to
recommend therapy, but also thethe thing to do is just
acknowledge it.
Like it makes sense that I'mholding on tightly to my money
because it kept my grandparentssafe.
And I'm safe financially.
I'm allowed to take that trip.
I'm allowed to buy that endtable.
I'm allowed to have a glass ofwine at dinner, and it won't
(27:25):
ruin me financially.
And I can can extend gratitudeto the people who came before me
for learning that behavior.
And now I'm working onunlearning it.
It's, you know what?
Carmen Lezeth (27:36):
I didn't realize I was gonna learn so much having
this conversation with you.
What the one habit, because Iknow I could be just um reading
this, but I thought I read thatyou really focused on creative
and entrepreneurs.
Is that true?
Or am I making that up in mymind?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (27:53):
No, no, no, you're okay.
I I mean, my my business hasgone through a few iterations
over time.
Um, so there was a point intime where I was working with a
lot of entrepreneurs, and nowI'm really focused on helping
individuals who aretraditionally employed for lack
of a better term, who are theseare the folks who are again,
(28:15):
they're doing okay on paper,financially speaking, but they
just can't let their shoulderscome down.
They just can't take a deepbreath, they just don't trust
themselves.
Um, and and with my financialtherapy practice, it was it was
full with a very lengthy waitlist.
So now I'm working on aone-to-many model, and I have a
five-part workshop series thathelps people really do the
(28:39):
financial well-being 101.
And my hope with it is to takeit into more workplaces who are
values aligned, who care abouttheir workforce, and also want
them to be able to takeadvantage of the things that
they offer, whether it's um aretirement plan or their PTO
(28:59):
benefits, and they're not fullytaking advantage of it, or
they're still experiencing somestress, like that is the space
in which we have so many people.
Carmen Lezeth (29:07):
I have so many clients, and so many people we'd
have to force them to take thetime off.
Absolutely, all the time.
All the time.
Let me just add uh for theaudio, um, it's
mindmoneybalance.com.
Again, mindmoneybalance.com.
You can find out about theworkshop on your website right
now.
Is that correct?
Absolutely.
Um, and also there is a link toher book, but you can also find
(29:29):
it on Amazon, which is where Ifound it.
Um, and the name of the book isthe Financial Anxiety Solution.
I just want to make sure we saythat.
You got it.
Beautiful.
Um, so you are working withindividuals.
So let's say somebody walks inand you know they sign up with
you.
How what's the process?
How does it work?
Um, is it a phone call, Zoomcall?
(29:52):
Is it in person?
Give me kind of the firstmeeting situation that happens
when somebody meets with you,what they can expect.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (30:00):
Sure.
So much like many of yourlisteners are familiar with, I'm
a traditional therapist.
So your first session is goingto look a lot like that.
I work remotely in the state ofMichigan where I have my
clinical license.
And that first session isreally figuring out what is
going on with what you think,feel, or believe about money
(30:22):
that's getting in the way ofyour ability to live your life
the way that you want to liveit.
So really starting to identifywhere they want to be so that we
know not just what we don'twant to do, but what we do want
to do.
What do we want to worktowards?
So in that first session, we'refiguring out what those goals
(30:42):
are.
And I'm also doing a lot oflistening for where some of
these stories may come from,where some of these habits may
have been created, and alsolistening for a person's
strengths.
What are they already doingwell that they're just not
giving themselves credit for?
What are the support systemsthey have in place that we can
make sure we're using as we movetoward achieving these
(31:05):
different financial goals?
I meet with most of my clientsweekly.
Um, and it's typically a bitmore short-term than traditional
psychotherapy because we'rereally honing in on one
particular life domain.
And it doesn't mean that wecan't talk about your
relationships or your work oryour or your spirituality.
(31:26):
It just means the the placewhere we're going to continue
coming back to is money becausethat's what they're coming to me
for.
Carmen Lezeth (31:35):
Right.
So a person that might beinterested, you said usually as
someone who is employed.
I caught that.
Yeah.
May I ask why you don't workwith people who are not employed
who seem to be the people thatmight need the help most?
Good question.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (31:51):
Because for financial therapy, in my
opinion, to really work, we haveto be beyond the math problem
stage.
Okay.
So if I'm thinking, like if Izoom way out before I
specialized in financialtherapy, if a client came to me
and wanted help with anxiety,but they were in crisis.
(32:12):
I was worried that they mightnot be safe to be sent home on
their own.
I wouldn't be able to trustwhether or not they would put
themselves in harm's way.
It is not appropriate for me tosay, tell me how you feel about
that.
Let's fill out this form.
My job is to say there's acrisis here.
We have to get this person intocrisis care before they can
(32:33):
work with me.
And I think about that withfinancial therapy too.
I can talk until I'm blue inthe face about intergenerational
trauma and the stories that weconsume and believe in based on
where we were raised.
But if that person isstruggling to make ends meet,
it's quite frankly for meunethical to tell them, look,
(32:53):
let's unpack this family historyif they are not in a space
where that is the mostclinically appropriate thing to
do.
Carmen Lezeth (33:01):
Right.
And so I'm I'm gonna add itthis way, because I I I had read
that a bit in at first I waslike, wait, what?
And totally was like, then itmade sense.
It's like if you're in asituation where you're
unemployed and you're unable toeven um get to the basics, then
you that's a different problemthat's happening right now.
(33:21):
That's a different problem.
The problem that you'refocused, you can tell me if I'm
wrong.
I'm just talking it in Carmenlanguage.
Yeah, but is more about okay,so so we have an income, maybe
we want more income, um, maybewe want to try to expand.
But really, what we're havingtrouble with is our feelings
about money, our guilt aboutmoney, our trauma about money,
(33:45):
our issues with how we deal withmoney in general, which if you
can get past, and I shouldn'tsay it that way, you can correct
me, but if you can move throughthat, you can then have a
better relationship with money.
And I think that's more whatyou're talking about, right?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (34:02):
You you nailed it, Carbon.
And there, there, to be clear,there are financial therapists
who do work with folks who areat a different income level.
And for me, I don't have thewraparound services to be able
to provide that level of care.
So some financial therapistswill, you know, work in
partnership with a nonprofit whois helping somebody make sure
that they have housing and makesure that they have a resume to
(34:24):
find a job.
Um, so it's not that thatdoesn't happen.
It's just that in my practice,I don't have those types of
supports or services to be ableto provide that in a way that
would really be meaningful.
Carmen Lezeth (34:36):
No, I think also just for any entrepreneurs and
people who are thinking aboutstarting businesses, this is
what it means to be extremelyfocused in your needs and know
exactly what you want to do.
Because I read FinancialTherapist and I was like, oh,
she's gonna help everybody.
Yeah.
And then I started readingmore, and I was like, oh, this
is totally focused.
(34:56):
So I totally get it.
Um, let me ask you thisquestion.
Why do so many people, um, andthis might be a question I
probably should have startedwith, of because I work with so
many people, people ask me tohelp them with their
bookkeeping, which I do not do.
Like it's kind of that samething.
I work with wealth clients, Idon't work with right, you know,
not fence.
I did that 20 years ago, butwhy do people avoid looking at
(35:17):
their bank accounts?
I am shook by this.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (35:21):
So many reasons.
Oh my gosh.
So one is is what I see a lotuh of the folks who are avoiding
it, is because when they'vetried to do it on their own,
they've tried to kind of DIY it,they're they're getting the
results that I shared with you.
I was getting when I firststarted to try and figure out
what the heck was going on withmoney.
(35:41):
They're getting people tellingthem that they're bad, that
they're wrong, that they're notsmart, that they have no
discipline.
And the second they log intotheir bank account or look at
their credit card statement andthey feel like, oh my gosh,
there's a term I don'tunderstand, or there's a
purchase that I don't remember,or uh, I can't believe that
happened.
Oh, they're hearing all thatstuff that is reinforcing that
(36:04):
they're bad and dumb and stupid.
And nobody likes that.
So I never made that community.
Carmen Lezeth (36:10):
When you're looking at your QuickBooks, like
here's the weird thing.
I look at my books every daybecause I handle money and I'm
to the penny.
But yeah, I'm obsessed in adifferent way, but it's so
interesting.
I didn't think about that.
So people will associate theirbank accounts, their credit card
statements, whatever.
It goes back to that gene thingas well, right?
(36:32):
That you talked about.
Um, I never thought of that,Lindsay.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (36:37):
Yes.
Well, I'm happy to have, yeah.
I mean, and and we all do this,Carmen.
Like avoidance is one of thebest short-term coping skills we
have, right?
As soon as, you know, if we getthat text from you and I are
self-employed, but like, youknow, from a boss, right?
We go, oh my gosh, I don't wantto deal with it.
And it feels really good toflip your phone over and push it
(36:58):
away and go back to watchingReal Housewives or whatever.
Right.
Whatever.
Right?
Like that feels really good.
That avoidance means I don'thave to face that thing.
But the problem with money, asyou're well aware and your
listeners are well aware, isevery time we neglect logging
into our checking account orlooking at our QuickBooks or or
checking our credit cardstatements, every single time we
(37:20):
push that off, that pile justkeeps getting bigger.
Yes.
Right.
And then it becomes thisoverwhelming mountain of things
instead of you're saying, Ireconcile my books every day.
It probably takes you two and ahalf minutes max, right?
If you did, because you'redoing it all the time.
But for people who have neverdone it, it's a mountain of
stuff and it's terrifying andit's overwhelming.
(37:42):
So that's the big thing that Isee.
Yeah.
And then for other folks, it isinterestingly, uh, you know,
perfectionism and anxiety arekind of two sides of the same
coin for many people.
Right.
And, you know, there may be aum a perfectionism tendency.
And when I open up thatchecking account or my
(38:03):
QuickBooks or whatever, and Isee it's kind of messy, I'm
like, well, if it can't beperfect, or if I can't do it
right, or if I can't set aside Xpercent for taxes, I'm not
going to do it at all.
Right.
So it's another form, but it'sjust you're you're kind of
viewing it from a differentplace.
But yeah, anytime somebody isengaging in a behavior, I
usually try, no matter howfrustrating that behavior is,
(38:24):
right?
I usually try to go like, howis this helping them?
How is this keeping them safe?
Because we don't do things ashumans because they they don't
work, right?
We we we start these habitsbecause at some point in time
they worked for us.
They felt good, they made usfeel better or less stressed.
And sometimes those thingsdon't keep working, but we don't
(38:47):
examine why.
Carmen Lezeth (38:48):
I always tell people that the reason why I'm
obsessed with the money thing isnot only because I've been
exposed to so many people whoare who have so much wealth and
are so miserable.
For me, it's a control thing.
Yeah.
Like I know where every pennygoes.
And I've started to let up alittle bit because I think
there's something bad about thattoo.
When you get so obsessed that Ikeep every receipt and I know
(39:09):
every penny.
And um, so okay, let me ask yousome because we're waiting.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (39:14):
I just want to jump into what you just
said.
You just gave a perfect examplearound how we get these
behaviors.
You said, I'm a control freak,I like to look at it, I like to
know penny in, penny out.
Yeah.
That worked for you because itprobably allowed you to build up
savings, to pay down, you know,expenses.
And now you're going, actually,I don't have to keep being so
rigid.
I'm allowed to have someflexibility.
(39:36):
So that is a perfect example ofthe financial behavior and how
it worked for you.
And now it's stopping beingquite as effective.
So that is a beautiful example.
Wow.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Carmen Lezeth (39:54):
Okay, wait.
So I'm gonna ask some questionsbecause I know we have a hard
stop.
Um, what's one habit that youwish more people would adopt?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvi (40:03):
Automation.
Uh turning on automaticsavings, turning on automatic
credit card payments, automaticbill payments.
I think so many of us get intofinancial trouble because we
tell ourselves, I'll remember topay that bill, I'll remember to
pay that person back.
And we're human and we justdon't.
Um, so when it makes sense,make it as easy as possible for
(40:25):
yourself.
I'm a huge automation fan.
And then when I am logging intomy accounts, I'm basically
double checking that everythingstill looks good instead of
feeling like I have to manually,you know, triple check.
Carmen Lezeth (40:36):
Right, do everything, everything.
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (40:36):
Yeah, I uh by the way, I do that.
Carmen Lezeth (40:38):
I didn't call it automation.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, you can returningtransactions on TikTok.
Absolutely.
Um what's your advice forsomeone who feels like it's too
late in their financial life toget it together?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (40:52):
Uh, you know, it's gonna sound cheesy,
but it is not too late to get ittogether.
And I would pick one thing tofocus on.
What tends to happen whenpeople feel like it's too late
is they're like, okay, well, Ihave to increase my income, pay
off my credit card debt, startcontributing to retirement, zek,
pick one thing to focus on, getmore comfortable, get more
confident with it, and then addon your next financial goal, but
(41:15):
don't try to do it all at once.
Carmen Lezeth (41:17):
Oh my God, thank you so much for coming on the
show.
It's been such a pleasure.
I just feel like we have somuch more to touch base on.
I would love to have you back,as I mentioned before.
Let me give the website onemore time.
It's mindmoneybalance.com.
Please go check it out.
Please buy her book.
Please definitely, if you areinterested, reach out.
(41:39):
And there's an easy contactpage there.
You also have a financial quizon there that you can that
people can take.
Um, so please,mindmoneybalance.com.
Any last words for ourlisteners?
Lindsay Bryan-Podvin (41:53):
Oh, yeah.
I yeah, you mentioned the quiz,and I'll say that's a great
next step if you're like, Idon't know what to do.
So the quiz, Carmen, that youmentioned helps people
understand a little bit moreabout their money personality
type, and it gives you someinsight to the things you are
probably doing well in someareas that are a little bit
sticky for you.
And it's a good first step tostart thinking about your your
(42:15):
money story or your feelingsabout money.
It's just like to dip your toein the water of yeah, kind of
following up on the conversationwe've had today.
Yeah, it was a free quiz.
Carmen Lezeth (42:24):
It's a free quiz.
So you can go tomindmoneybalance.com and just do
the quiz.
Check it out.
Um, thank you so much, and um,we'll have you back.
Um, everyone, I I'm a littlebit thrown because I didn't
expect this to be such a funconversation about money.
I know, right?
Well, thank you.
I'm I'm glad I surprised you.
(42:45):
I know.
So um, so everyone remember atthe end of the day, it really is
all about the joy, and we'llsee you again next time.
Bye, everyone.
Bye.
Thanks for stopping by, AllAbout the Joy.
Be better and stay beautiful,folks.
Have a sweet day.
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