February 9, 2025 • 29 mins
This episode dives into the complexities of diversity, equity, and inclusion while exploring the triggering responses some individuals have when addressing issues that uplift marginalized voices. The hosts reflect on personal experiences and systemic barriers in hiring, emphasizing the importance of awareness, listening, and collaborative progress.
• Discussion about a LinkedIn post on supporting Black women
• Insights on defensive reactions associated with conversations on privilege
• Exploration of scarcity mindset as a barrier to inclusion
• Examination of hiring biases and systemic racism
• Addressing the need for understanding and education in conversations about race
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Music By Geovane Bruno, Moments, 3481
Editing by Team A-J
Host, Carmen Lezeth
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Carmen Lezeth (00:05):
Hey, welcome to All About the Joy of the Private
Lounge.
And on this week's episode, Ipulled out a vintage episode
between me and Andrea when wewere recording podcasts on Zoom,
so it's a little wonky to watchbecause it's a little bit old
school I mean, if 2022 is oldschool but it's a topic that was
(00:25):
relevant back then and,unfortunately, is still relevant
today.
So it's about 24 minutes.
It's an interesting episode.
I would love to see what youthink of it.
And, yeah, thank you always forstopping by.
Here you go.
Okay, hey, so it's so good tohave you back.
I'm glad that you're here.
I think we're going to be doingthese on a more regular basis.
(00:46):
So, for people who are notwatching the YouTube video that
I've just started on my websiteand on my YouTube channel,
andrea Nunez is back with us andI think you're going to be
doing this on a more regularbasis, right?
Am I just crossing my fingerson that?
Yes, I will be here wheneveryou will have me.
And then maybe at some pointsomebody will sponsor us and
(01:08):
we'll just be able to do a showtogether, which would be
fantastic.
But for now we're just doingthis little thing, all about the
joy, and we're always going totry to bring it to business.
But really the whole idea forme is just to be always looking
at the most positive possibleoutcomes of any situation that's
happening in life.
But your expertise and what youdo why don't you tell us a
(01:29):
little bit about what you do andhow you help people?
And if you want to talk aboutyour company or not, it's
totally up to you.
But I thought I'd give you thatform too, because I didn't last
time.
Andrea Nunez (01:40):
Sure, so I do consulting work and coaching
primarily with small businesses,and we work on strategic
planning and leadershipdevelopment, succession planning
, and those things are oftenintrinsically linked with each
other, as well as executivecoaching.
So you know, we work with theowners or the executives, as
(02:06):
well as their teams, and try toget the organization to a place
that it's healthy, right Ideallyfor me, doing good in the world
, and that it's a healthyorganization in terms of what
(02:32):
it's actually doing and thatit's profitable.
All of those things, and Ithink all of those things are
linked as well.
Carmen Lezeth (02:38):
So do you have your own personal website or do
you just generally?
Because you didn't mention yourcompany name, I did last time,
didn't know if you wanted to,just I do not have a personal
website.
Andrea Nunez (02:49):
My company is the Genesis group.
The Genesis groupcom.
It's G E N Y S Y S.
Carmen Lezeth (02:54):
Yeah, it is spelled a little weird.
I'll put it in the show notesagain in case people.
Andrea Nunez (02:59):
So what is it?
It's new, like Genesis systems.
You know S-Y-S, so that's whatit stands for.
Carmen Lezeth (03:07):
I never knew that .
Andrea Nunez (03:11):
You've done your learning for the day.
You can call it a day.
I can call it a day, Well yeah,let's talk about.
Carmen Lezeth (03:16):
I had a whole different idea planned for this
episode, but you know I emailedyou the minute something
happened on LinkedIn, so I wantto share with people what
happened on this one part ofLinkedIn.
Ladavia S Drain, I think that'show you say her name.
She is a lawyer.
She is the head of globalinclusion, diversity and equity
(03:36):
at Amazon Web Services.
I don't even think I follow her, but I am now.
But somebody else had writtensomething, and so you know how
that happens when you're afriend of somebody's, you see
what's on their feet as well.
And she had written this postthat said, until it is no longer
necessary, on every singlehashtag, iwd day, international
(04:01):
Women's Day, right, I will postthis as a reminder and take
action myself too.
And then it has a little handpointing downward and it says
hire Black women, promote Blackwomen, protect Black women, pay
Black women.
And it was just this post, andpeople, of course, commented on
it, and I was and am besidemyself as to the negative, nasty
(04:28):
comments that are still onthere Now.
The comment that I responded toa few times in a very nice and
professional way I did.
That person has since deletedtheir initial comment, and I
think it's because at some pointI turned around and said to
them what are you doing, like?
(04:49):
But let me read you what theywrote Don't we wish we?
Andrea Nunez (04:53):
could all do that Like what are you doing on
social media?
Carmen Lezeth (04:58):
Let me read what their response was.
They have since deleted it andI'm not going to share their
name because I think they hadmaybe a come to Jesus moment or
whatever you want to call it,and they deleted it.
But there are plenty of otherones still on there this morning
because I looked at them.
They wrote your post isoffensive, it is divisive,
(05:19):
racist and sexist.
It is not empowering norpositive.
It is not admirable.
It is not empowering norpositive.
It is not admirable.
Replace one color with anothercolor and we're all ready for
civil war.
Higher talent, promote talent,protect humanity, fair wages for
all.
(05:41):
Recently I listened to a groupof women in this case, speak on
leadership and one said I ambecause you are Sorry.
I have to gasp a little bitSorry, she wrote it.
Okay, let me finish what shewrote, cause this has since been
deleted.
So you are because I am.
Another said how do we make thewhole visible?
How do we fight for everybody?
(06:03):
This I could relate to.
We can sharpen one another sowe can rise together arm in arm.
What if we imagine a world past?
Color, gender, race, origin,age?
What if I know?
Here's the thing For those ofyou listening on the podcast.
I am a woman of color, so Ijust need people to know that,
(06:26):
in case you don't know.
And Andrea, you are not, youare a.
You are.
What would you?
Well, I mean?
But the irony is, if peopleknew what our ethnicities were,
they would realize that we areso much more alike than we are.
Not Right, but people confuseskin color with ethnicity.
Andrea Nunez (06:44):
You look at me and you look at carmen.
You're like that carmen is ablack woman, andrea is a white
woman.
Carmen Lezeth (06:49):
That's right so your feelings.
I'm just going to throw thisyour way because I think
everyone can tell how I feelabout it.
Would it be easier if I startedwith a question?
I'm so sorry.
Yeah, yeah, start with aquestion.
Okay so here's my first thought.
My first question when I sentyou the email was basically this
(07:10):
like why are white people sotriggered by lifting up people
who are in disenfranchisedgroups?
Right, and let me just caveatwith this.
One of the things I respondedto this woman was you know what,
when somebody is disabled, whensomebody has an issue where
(07:33):
they are in a wheelchair or theyare in a circumstance that is
something that disenfranchisesthem from my privilege, or even
as a woman of color, because Ihave light skin privilege, my
privilege, or even as a woman ofcolor, because I have light
skin privilege, I understand myprivilege.
Even in that part of it.
There is a privilege to havinglight skin and blah, blah, blah.
I never, ever get triggered.
(07:54):
If anything, I listen and I puta handout and say how can I
help?
So my question to you is notjust in business, but as a white
woman, but you can answer both.
Why are white people sotriggered by this statement?
Andrea Nunez (08:18):
of uplifting black women or black people.
Carmen Lezeth (08:20):
Well, and I know, you're speaking on behalf of
all white people.
Andrea Nunez (08:21):
I speak on behalf of all black people.
So let me tell you all aboutwhat the white people think.
Yeah, I was going to caveat.
It was saying I do not speakfor all white people, but here's
what I believe.
I believe that several things.
First is that there is a sensethat there's uh, you know,
there's a pie right, and if Igive up my piece, it's very,
(08:46):
it's like a, it's like akindergartner mentality almost.
It's very immature and juvenile.
I don't want to give up even asliver of my pie because that's
there's only so much to goaround, and on some circles
that's called like scarcitymindset or lack mentality, and I
think that's been very muchingrained in people.
If I give you something, thatmeans less for me as opposed to
(09:11):
understanding that if there'smore equity, more inclusiveness,
more diversity, there's morefor everyone, and the pie is
going to taste so much better.
I was just going to say I wasjust about to bring it back to
food.
Okay, that is one of your loves,so everyone knows, one of my
(09:34):
great loves is why I can nevermove away from a big city.
It just really just think aboutthe diversity of food options
that you have.
Right, I can have Thai, I canhave Indian, I can have
Cambodian, I can have Korean.
You know all of these things.
My life, I believe, is enrichedby that, not just because I
(09:56):
love good food, but because itteaches me something about these
people.
You know, every time I havesomething like that and what
they care about and it, I think,for me that lifts everybody and
it's and I don't mean to belike facetious about it and be
like, oh, it's just about havingtacos or whatever.
Carmen Lezeth (10:20):
Be inclusive.
We want tacos.
Andrea Nunez (10:35):
It's definitely more than that and I don't mean
to underplay it, but I dobelieve that there's just
there's something that peoplemiss about, about embracing
diversity, and sometimes don'teven realize that they already
have in many ways, but they theycut themselves off.
And that, you know, whichbrings me to another point which
I'm assuming we will get to, isthat these are systemic
(10:55):
problems.
These are systemic problemsthat are ingrained in our
culture and the way that we live, the way that we operate,
definitely in business,definitely in education, and it
filters through to the way thatwe interact with each other on a
daily basis, filters through,you know, to the way that we
interact with each other on adaily basis.
Carmen Lezeth (11:13):
How do you hire someone of color, because this
question comes up in that post alot too right, this idea that
you shouldn't be hiring someonebased on the color of their skin
, but you should be hiring thebest person for the job.
How do you tackle that andanswer that question or explain?
Andrea Nunez (11:34):
it to someone.
When people bring that up andI've heard that for almost
decades now in my business lifeyou and me both, of course we
should all hire and promotetalent, like I'm not going to
bring someone in who doesn'tknow what the F they're doing.
But the question is, where areyou looking for that talent?
(11:55):
How are you defining talent?
What exactly does that mean?
Who are you systematicallyexcluding with some of the
stated qualifications and theunstated?
Not a culture fitdismissiveness, right, you have
to look at.
All right, what's my pool ofcandidates?
Carmen Lezeth (12:17):
Can I also interject here, because it just
reminded me of something thatyou said, president Barack Obama
, during a speaking event.
I believe it was when ReverendPinckney was killed the church
shooting that happened.
Remember, when he was doing hiseulogy.
He did that really famous linewhere he said and I'm misquoting
(12:41):
it, but it's the same flavorit's like when you look at a
resume, you won't just look atthe name Johnny, you'll also
look at the name Jamal.
We don't even realize our ownpersonal racist ways that we see
the name Jamal.
We don't even realize our ownpersonal racist ways that we see
the name Jamal or whatever,laquisha or whatever you want to
call it.
You look at certain names andyou dismiss them, whether
(13:03):
they're Asian names, latinonames or whatever, because it is
systemic.
It doesn't mean that you'rewalking around saying the N word
, it's that you don't evenrealize in your head you have
fit into what society hasdecided is not worthy of a job
in tech, because you thinksomebody with a certain kind of
name couldn't possibly have theeducation or the wherewithal or
(13:27):
the know-how to do that tech job.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I worked at a companyand I you know to this day
they're doing really well.
I was a partner there.
It was a great company when Iwas there and I remember having
the conversation that theyneeded to find more Asian guys
to hire because there weren'tany other people qualified.
(13:51):
And I remember myself beinglike because I didn't know
anything about the design worldand motion graphics at the time
I was like, okay, we all wouldbe there for that.
Or okay, you want me to findpeople where?
And here's the thing, it isingrained in us, it is system
and I wish white people wouldget that.
(14:14):
I'm not saying that you as awhite person, as a white
executive, as a white owner of acompany, are intentionally
although some of you are, butsome of you are not
intentionally being racist.
They are things that areingrained in us and so I just
wanted to throw that out therebecause I am really tired of
(14:37):
people being so triggered byuplifting other people.
Andrea Nunez (14:42):
Well, and I was reading something about this the
other day and I wish I couldremember where, and I'm sure
it's been written about in a lotof different ways.
But you know, when you're thestandard, the norm, and your
people are waking you up to theoh it was.
It was about somebody hadposted something about the new
(15:03):
Disney movie and about how hedidn't see himself in it and it
was boring or something likethat.
Carmen Lezeth (15:08):
Which one?
Andrea Nunez (15:08):
do you know Red Panda, I think.
Carmen Lezeth (15:11):
Oh, I don't know that one.
Andrea Nunez (15:12):
Yeah, it's not even out yet.
I keep seeing the commercialsand I have no idea what it's
about.
But anyway, this guy it's apassing thing I saw on social
media, so I'm probablybutchering it, but I do remember
a couple of his lines were likeI don't see myself in it, so it
was a waste of my time, it'ssomething along those lines.
I'm paraphrasing, but the Idon't see myself, and it was
(15:34):
something that he said and itwas like welcome to the
experience of every person ofcolor you have ever come into
contact with.
That's right.
You know what I mean and it's,it is, it's triggering, and he
definitely got schooled, maybegot schooled.
I don't know if he learnedanything, but you know he got
(15:56):
told and that is a verydifficult thing for people to
overcome, to stand back and belike I mean just it's the
general skill of being able tosay, oh, I have something to
learn here is something that alot of people have not learned.
Carmen Lezeth (16:12):
I have something to learn here is something that
a lot of people have not learnedyeah, not being defensive about
every single thing, likeeverything isn't about you and
everything isn't in.
I can't say the word, so Idon't know why I'm trying to use
it, but this woman that Ireacted with and we were going
on and on and she just kept, shecould not stop being defensive,
and it made me even kinder,right, it made me even nicer.
(16:37):
I kept trying to be even more,and there were other people
chiming in trying to tell herlike what are you doing?
Like you're now becoming veryracist and everything you're
saying because you're sotriggered, and I think that's
why she deleted the post.
I'm not the post, that thecomment how do you as and I've
(17:01):
always said this to you and thisis bad on my part, but I always
say you're one of the good ones, right, and what I mean by that
.
Yeah, I'm letting it all outthere on my podcast Hashtag good
ones.
What I mean by that is people.
You know we say the allies, wesay people who are allies, but
(17:21):
what I mean by that is you'renot triggered by my brilliance,
right?
If anything, you have alwayslifted me up as a woman of color
.
I have never felt that you weretrying to step on me or felt
intimidated or felt like I wastaking more from you, and I've
seen that with you on in so manyother circumstances.
Just in the way we work withpeople.
(17:41):
I've seen you talk to whitebosses that we've both had and
kind of school them in a niceway about their own racism, and
they don't even know you'reschooling them.
So how do you become thisperson or how have you or how
has it happened?
Is there something you canbottle and we can sell to other
(18:03):
white people to help walk themthrough this time period?
Andrea Nunez (18:07):
I don't know.
Yeah, I don't.
I don't know how to answer.
No, I mean, I think the answeris no, I mean it's just.
You know the secret of mysuccess.
Carmen Lezeth (18:19):
Look, and here's why because I yell at people of
color all the time becausethere's a camp that starts right
, where we're trying to beunderstanding, and there's
another camp where we're done.
We are so tired of the racism,especially when we're talking
about things that are happening,like George Floyd or you know
have happened to may he rest inpeace, but just you understand
what I'm saying Like we've hadit right.
(18:40):
And then there's people likemyself, who are, like I am
trying to be as understanding towhite people, Cause I think
white people are having astruggle right now.
They're having a major issue.
Andrea Nunez (18:50):
It is an existential struggle right now.
They're having a major issue.
It is an existential struggleright now, literally.
And that's you see, whenthere's an existential struggle,
you see people who are willingto learn, willing to change.
You see people who are waitingit out to see how it all plays
out and people who are freakingthe fuck out, sorry what is?
Carmen Lezeth (19:10):
can you explain for people like me what
existential means?
Andrea Nunez (19:15):
Meaning people think that they're, they are in
a life and death struggle, right?
I believe that the powerstructure, structures, uh, you
know, and that's it's a weirdway to say it, but the power,
you know people see that thepower structures are changing
(19:35):
right.
The country is becoming muchmore diverse and there's it's
not, it's a wave, it's thatyou're not going to stop, right,
the train has left the station,it's happening, and even the
conversation that we're having.
People wouldn't have had this20 years ago.
Carmen Lezeth (19:54):
People are still not having this conversation.
I'm going to get a lot offeedback.
Andrea Nunez (19:57):
Yeah, there's there's, you know the openness
of it, like you can see gaypeople on TV.
You know what I mean.
Like that kind of stuff whereit's just well and that doesn't
have to do necessarily withwhite people, although it does,
but I mean mean, that's a wholeother issue we'll talk about you
(20:18):
know, those kinds of things Ithink make uh a a section of
people feel like you know my wayof life, my culture, you know
the way my way of being in theworld is being threatened and
that's what I mean byexistential threat, like they
feel like it's they're in afight or flight kind of moment,
(20:39):
I think you know it's sointeresting because, as, as a
woman of color and yes, I'm onlyspeaking for myself, I cannot
speak on behalf of all people ofcolor, I you know, just to
clarify in case there's anyconfusion.
Carmen Lezeth (20:51):
I think what's really interesting is I see the
pain that white people are goingthrough and I have to tell you
black, black folk get mad at mewhen I say that, but I see it.
I see this strange, weirdfeeling like everything is being
taken away from me and it'seven worse.
It's being taken away from mefrom people who are less than or
(21:14):
don't deserve it somehow.
Right, there's just like allthis, like layering of it, and
for me it feels like I wish Icould change that thought
process in saying no one istaking anything away from you.
We're asking you to come to thetable, we're asking you to sit
at the table where we shouldhave been all along, you know,
(21:37):
and together.
But you can't see, you can't dothat We've talked about.
Andrea Nunez (21:44):
You know you're, you're a kinder, nicer person
than I am.
Um, this is actually true, itis verified.
Um, and I don't have thatunderstanding or sympathy Right
Right To me.
Like I said, I feel like it'sjuvenile, it's immature, it's,
(22:06):
uh, ignorant.
I could go on and on and on allthe things that are wrong with
that way of thinking, on and onall the things that are wrong
with that way of thinking, andyou know one, one of my biggest
pet peeves is what I callwillful ignorance, like you are
choosing to be at this point.
You are choosing to be ignoranton this topic, right.
And one of the most frustratingthings, I think, for a lot of
(22:30):
people is that, you know, itwould help everybody Most, a lot
of the people who are mostaggrieved by what they see as
this diversification of thecountry would actually benefit
in very concrete ways If theywould, as you say, come to the
table in good faith and be likelet's work together, we're in
(22:53):
this together, let's.
So I was going to be totallyPollyanna let's work together to
make the world a better place.
But I mean, that's what it'sabout, right, Make everyone's
lives better.
Carmen Lezeth (23:06):
Do you think, though, that there's also cause?
I see this with the conflicthappening right now with Ukraine
, and I hate to do that, but andI've been seeing this for a
long time People in the UnitedStates, we really believe we're
so much better than othercountries.
That's how I grew up, believing, and then realizing oh my God,
I'm not Right, we're not.
(23:27):
Is there something?
to that Right, we're so, notYou're the baddies, and I love
my country.
But I'm just saying, is theresomething to it with that as
well?
I feel like some white people Iknow are really triggered by
the idea that black people aresmart and brilliant and good and
(23:54):
, oh my God, are they on thesame level?
You know what I mean?
Mean, or are some even better,like I had someone make a
comment the other day like Ican't believe he's a CEO of that
company, and I was like what?
Why he's a Harvard grad.
You know, I went down the listof his resume and they, well, I
mean, it's just weird, right.
Andrea Nunez (24:16):
Right, yeah, I mean and I think that goes to
what I refer to as what manypeople see as their culture,
their culture of what thiscountry is and what it means all
of these kinds of you know likepropaganda really about what
(24:37):
America is, yeah, lies aboutwhat it is.
Was it ever that for blackpeople, for Latinos?
I don't think so.
Yeah, there's a pathway to theAmerican dream, maybe.
But you talk a lot of thesepeople who, like hearken back to
things were so great back inthe 50s and we were so
(25:00):
prosperous after the war and youknow you could buy a house on a
, you know, working class salary.
Let's talk to our farm workerfriends and talk and tell me how
great it was back in the 50s.
Let's talk to people who had todrink at separate drinking
fountains because of the colorof their skin.
(25:21):
It wasn't freaking great.
Sorry, I keep wanting to cuss.
Carmen Lezeth (25:25):
Yeah, why are you swearing so much on my podcast?
No, it's okay, here's the otherthing too, the reason why I
don't like period pieces so muchand people don't get this.
I and I don't really know a lotof people of color who are like
, oh my God, I love Jane Austenmovies.
Like I never am excited aboutperiod pieces Cause I already
(25:45):
know where I would be in thatperiod piece.
I do not relate.
You know what I mean, I do, youknow it's.
It's like this weird joke.
At least I'd be in the house,is what they would say.
Right, I know it's horrible, soit's.
Yeah, I just wish it was easierfor people not to be so angry
(26:06):
about the world.
You know, for me it's not thatit's changing for the good, it's
changing and it's about time.
Andrea Nunez (26:15):
Like it's like taking it back to even that post
right, like it's a social mediapost, right, it's not a world
changing thing, but it isimportant to say these things
loud and proud in order tonormalize them.
I think you even mentioned shesaid until it's not necessary,
or she does.
And are people going to have areaction?
(26:36):
Yes, they are.
And are people going to have areaction?
Yes, they are.
But people had a reaction towomen getting the right to vote
a hundred years ago.
People died and even then whitewomen were the ones who really
got the right to vote.
It wasn't until many yearslater, until people of color.
But it was a long, arduousfight, and and so is this and it
(26:57):
will continue, and we're stillpaying.
We're still trying to deal withthat, which is, yeah, there's
still a subset of people whothink that the women shouldn't
have the right to vote, andthere's always probably going to
be a subset of people who feellike, because your skin happens
to be more melanated than mine,I'm better than you.
Like, people are going to.
There's going to be people whobelieve that and that's not
going to change.
Carmen Lezeth (27:19):
I have these new clients who I absolutely love
them, but the other day somebodythis has nothing to do with
what we're talking about, it'sjust funny Somebody sent me an
email and they were like why T?
Blah, blah, blah, why T?
Whatever?
And I'm like why are thesepeople Like?
(27:39):
Why are they?
Andrea Nunez (27:40):
saying white every five, they meant youtube.
Carmen Lezeth (27:42):
That is very culturally specific you have to
keep reading this email over andover again, because I was like
but yeah, it's like the world isjust changing.
I, I and I was reading intosomething.
Yeah, because I think,culturally, people of color are
using y?
Yt more often to talk aboutwhite people.
But this was somebody referringto YouTube in an abbreviated
(28:05):
form.
I was freaking out, but look, Ithink we should.
I mean, do you have anythingelse you wanted to add?
Andrea Nunez (28:11):
I was going to wrap up, but yeah, no, just like
I said just going off of thatpost, right, it's a social media
post and there's all of this isa lot more complex than that
can convey, but I think we haveto continue to wake people up to
the inequities and trigger them, be willing to trigger them.
Carmen Lezeth (28:29):
Yeah, yeah, and I think white people need to stop
talking so much and just listen.
Like, if you look at that post,black people, people of color
and some white people there weredefinitely some white people
who were just celebrating it,were happy about it, were
excited about it.
Every white person, mostlywhite women, because, you know,
(28:51):
I went in and looked at it Angrywe're the same.
I don't see color.
I'm angry, we're the same, Idon't see color.
Oh, my good Lord, like it justwas devastating.
And so I hope, I hope, peoplegot something out of this, at
least have a conversation aboutit.
But we'll have to touch on thissubject again in our next
episode, so hopefully you'llcome back next week.
Andrea Nunez (29:12):
I will try not to cuss as much.
Carmen Lezeth (29:14):
No, you can cuss, it's all right.
It's explicit on my things.
All right, that's it for now.
We'll be back next week.
So thanks, adios, thanks forstopping by.
All about the joy.
Be better and stay beautifulfolks, have a sweet day.
Hey, welcome to All About the Joy of the Private
Lounge.
And on this week's episode, Ipulled out a vintage episode
between me and Andrea when wewere recording podcasts on Zoom,
so it's a little wonky to watchbecause it's a little bit old
school I mean, if 2022 is oldschool but it's a topic that was
(00:25):
relevant back then and,unfortunately, is still relevant
today.
So it's about 24 minutes.
It's an interesting episode.
I would love to see what youthink of it.
And, yeah, thank you always forstopping by.
Here you go.
Okay, hey, so it's so good tohave you back.
I'm glad that you're here.
I think we're going to be doingthese on a more regular basis.
(00:46):
So, for people who are notwatching the YouTube video that
I've just started on my websiteand on my YouTube channel,
andrea Nunez is back with us andI think you're going to be
doing this on a more regularbasis, right?
Am I just crossing my fingerson that?
Yes, I will be here wheneveryou will have me.
And then maybe at some pointsomebody will sponsor us and
(01:08):
we'll just be able to do a showtogether, which would be
fantastic.
But for now we're just doingthis little thing, all about the
joy, and we're always going totry to bring it to business.
But really the whole idea forme is just to be always looking
at the most positive possibleoutcomes of any situation that's
happening in life.
But your expertise and what youdo why don't you tell us a
(01:29):
little bit about what you do andhow you help people?
And if you want to talk aboutyour company or not, it's
totally up to you.
But I thought I'd give you thatform too, because I didn't last
time.
Andrea Nunez (01:40):
Sure, so I do consulting work and coaching
primarily with small businesses,and we work on strategic
planning and leadershipdevelopment, succession planning
, and those things are oftenintrinsically linked with each
other, as well as executivecoaching.
So you know, we work with theowners or the executives, as
(02:06):
well as their teams, and try toget the organization to a place
that it's healthy, right Ideallyfor me, doing good in the world
, and that it's a healthyorganization in terms of what
(02:32):
it's actually doing and thatit's profitable.
All of those things, and Ithink all of those things are
linked as well.
Carmen Lezeth (02:38):
So do you have your own personal website or do
you just generally?
Because you didn't mention yourcompany name, I did last time,
didn't know if you wanted to,just I do not have a personal
website.
Andrea Nunez (02:49):
My company is the Genesis group.
The Genesis groupcom.
It's G E N Y S Y S.
Carmen Lezeth (02:54):
Yeah, it is spelled a little weird.
I'll put it in the show notesagain in case people.
Andrea Nunez (02:59):
So what is it?
It's new, like Genesis systems.
You know S-Y-S, so that's whatit stands for.
Carmen Lezeth (03:07):
I never knew that .
Andrea Nunez (03:11):
You've done your learning for the day.
You can call it a day.
I can call it a day, Well yeah,let's talk about.
Carmen Lezeth (03:16):
I had a whole different idea planned for this
episode, but you know I emailedyou the minute something
happened on LinkedIn, so I wantto share with people what
happened on this one part ofLinkedIn.
Ladavia S Drain, I think that'show you say her name.
She is a lawyer.
She is the head of globalinclusion, diversity and equity
(03:36):
at Amazon Web Services.
I don't even think I follow her, but I am now.
But somebody else had writtensomething, and so you know how
that happens when you're afriend of somebody's, you see
what's on their feet as well.
And she had written this postthat said, until it is no longer
necessary, on every singlehashtag, iwd day, international
(04:01):
Women's Day, right, I will postthis as a reminder and take
action myself too.
And then it has a little handpointing downward and it says
hire Black women, promote Blackwomen, protect Black women, pay
Black women.
And it was just this post, andpeople, of course, commented on
it, and I was and am besidemyself as to the negative, nasty
(04:28):
comments that are still onthere Now.
The comment that I responded toa few times in a very nice and
professional way I did.
That person has since deletedtheir initial comment, and I
think it's because at some pointI turned around and said to
them what are you doing, like?
(04:49):
But let me read you what theywrote Don't we wish we?
Andrea Nunez (04:53):
could all do that Like what are you doing on
social media?
Carmen Lezeth (04:58):
Let me read what their response was.
They have since deleted it andI'm not going to share their
name because I think they hadmaybe a come to Jesus moment or
whatever you want to call it,and they deleted it.
But there are plenty of otherones still on there this morning
because I looked at them.
They wrote your post isoffensive, it is divisive,
(05:19):
racist and sexist.
It is not empowering norpositive.
It is not admirable.
It is not empowering norpositive.
It is not admirable.
Replace one color with anothercolor and we're all ready for
civil war.
Higher talent, promote talent,protect humanity, fair wages for
all.
(05:41):
Recently I listened to a groupof women in this case, speak on
leadership and one said I ambecause you are Sorry.
I have to gasp a little bitSorry, she wrote it.
Okay, let me finish what shewrote, cause this has since been
deleted.
So you are because I am.
Another said how do we make thewhole visible?
How do we fight for everybody?
(06:03):
This I could relate to.
We can sharpen one another sowe can rise together arm in arm.
What if we imagine a world past?
Color, gender, race, origin,age?
What if I know?
Here's the thing For those ofyou listening on the podcast.
I am a woman of color, so Ijust need people to know that,
(06:26):
in case you don't know.
And Andrea, you are not, youare a.
You are.
What would you?
Well, I mean?
But the irony is, if peopleknew what our ethnicities were,
they would realize that we areso much more alike than we are.
Not Right, but people confuseskin color with ethnicity.
Andrea Nunez (06:44):
You look at me and you look at carmen.
You're like that carmen is ablack woman, andrea is a white
woman.
Carmen Lezeth (06:49):
That's right so your feelings.
I'm just going to throw thisyour way because I think
everyone can tell how I feelabout it.
Would it be easier if I startedwith a question?
I'm so sorry.
Yeah, yeah, start with aquestion.
Okay so here's my first thought.
My first question when I sentyou the email was basically this
(07:10):
like why are white people sotriggered by lifting up people
who are in disenfranchisedgroups?
Right, and let me just caveatwith this.
One of the things I respondedto this woman was you know what,
when somebody is disabled, whensomebody has an issue where
(07:33):
they are in a wheelchair or theyare in a circumstance that is
something that disenfranchisesthem from my privilege, or even
as a woman of color, because Ihave light skin privilege, my
privilege, or even as a woman ofcolor, because I have light
skin privilege, I understand myprivilege.
Even in that part of it.
There is a privilege to havinglight skin and blah, blah, blah.
I never, ever get triggered.
(07:54):
If anything, I listen and I puta handout and say how can I
help?
So my question to you is notjust in business, but as a white
woman, but you can answer both.
Why are white people sotriggered by this statement?
Andrea Nunez (08:18):
of uplifting black women or black people.
Carmen Lezeth (08:20):
Well, and I know, you're speaking on behalf of
all white people.
Andrea Nunez (08:21):
I speak on behalf of all black people.
So let me tell you all aboutwhat the white people think.
Yeah, I was going to caveat.
It was saying I do not speakfor all white people, but here's
what I believe.
I believe that several things.
First is that there is a sensethat there's uh, you know,
there's a pie right, and if Igive up my piece, it's very,
(08:46):
it's like a, it's like akindergartner mentality almost.
It's very immature and juvenile.
I don't want to give up even asliver of my pie because that's
there's only so much to goaround, and on some circles
that's called like scarcitymindset or lack mentality, and I
think that's been very muchingrained in people.
If I give you something, thatmeans less for me as opposed to
(09:11):
understanding that if there'smore equity, more inclusiveness,
more diversity, there's morefor everyone, and the pie is
going to taste so much better.
I was just going to say I wasjust about to bring it back to
food.
Okay, that is one of your loves,so everyone knows, one of my
(09:34):
great loves is why I can nevermove away from a big city.
It just really just think aboutthe diversity of food options
that you have.
Right, I can have Thai, I canhave Indian, I can have
Cambodian, I can have Korean.
You know all of these things.
My life, I believe, is enrichedby that, not just because I
(09:56):
love good food, but because itteaches me something about these
people.
You know, every time I havesomething like that and what
they care about and it, I think,for me that lifts everybody and
it's and I don't mean to belike facetious about it and be
like, oh, it's just about havingtacos or whatever.
Carmen Lezeth (10:20):
Be inclusive.
We want tacos.
Andrea Nunez (10:35):
It's definitely more than that and I don't mean
to underplay it, but I dobelieve that there's just
there's something that peoplemiss about, about embracing
diversity, and sometimes don'teven realize that they already
have in many ways, but they theycut themselves off.
And that, you know, whichbrings me to another point which
I'm assuming we will get to, isthat these are systemic
(10:55):
problems.
These are systemic problemsthat are ingrained in our
culture and the way that we live, the way that we operate,
definitely in business,definitely in education, and it
filters through to the way thatwe interact with each other on a
daily basis, filters through,you know, to the way that we
interact with each other on adaily basis.
Carmen Lezeth (11:13):
How do you hire someone of color, because this
question comes up in that post alot too right, this idea that
you shouldn't be hiring someonebased on the color of their skin
, but you should be hiring thebest person for the job.
How do you tackle that andanswer that question or explain?
Andrea Nunez (11:34):
it to someone.
When people bring that up andI've heard that for almost
decades now in my business lifeyou and me both, of course we
should all hire and promotetalent, like I'm not going to
bring someone in who doesn'tknow what the F they're doing.
But the question is, where areyou looking for that talent?
(11:55):
How are you defining talent?
What exactly does that mean?
Who are you systematicallyexcluding with some of the
stated qualifications and theunstated?
Not a culture fitdismissiveness, right, you have
to look at.
All right, what's my pool ofcandidates?
Carmen Lezeth (12:17):
Can I also interject here, because it just
reminded me of something thatyou said, president Barack Obama
, during a speaking event.
I believe it was when ReverendPinckney was killed the church
shooting that happened.
Remember, when he was doing hiseulogy.
He did that really famous linewhere he said and I'm misquoting
(12:41):
it, but it's the same flavorit's like when you look at a
resume, you won't just look atthe name Johnny, you'll also
look at the name Jamal.
We don't even realize our ownpersonal racist ways that we see
the name Jamal.
We don't even realize our ownpersonal racist ways that we see
the name Jamal or whatever,laquisha or whatever you want to
call it.
You look at certain names andyou dismiss them, whether
(13:03):
they're Asian names, latinonames or whatever, because it is
systemic.
It doesn't mean that you'rewalking around saying the N word
, it's that you don't evenrealize in your head you have
fit into what society hasdecided is not worthy of a job
in tech, because you thinksomebody with a certain kind of
name couldn't possibly have theeducation or the wherewithal or
(13:27):
the know-how to do that tech job.
Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I worked at a companyand I you know to this day
they're doing really well.
I was a partner there.
It was a great company when Iwas there and I remember having
the conversation that theyneeded to find more Asian guys
to hire because there weren'tany other people qualified.
(13:51):
And I remember myself beinglike because I didn't know
anything about the design worldand motion graphics at the time
I was like, okay, we all wouldbe there for that.
Or okay, you want me to findpeople where?
And here's the thing, it isingrained in us, it is system
and I wish white people wouldget that.
(14:14):
I'm not saying that you as awhite person, as a white
executive, as a white owner of acompany, are intentionally
although some of you are, butsome of you are not
intentionally being racist.
They are things that areingrained in us and so I just
wanted to throw that out therebecause I am really tired of
(14:37):
people being so triggered byuplifting other people.
Andrea Nunez (14:42):
Well, and I was reading something about this the
other day and I wish I couldremember where, and I'm sure
it's been written about in a lotof different ways.
But you know, when you're thestandard, the norm, and your
people are waking you up to theoh it was.
It was about somebody hadposted something about the new
(15:03):
Disney movie and about how hedidn't see himself in it and it
was boring or something likethat.
Carmen Lezeth (15:08):
Which one?
Andrea Nunez (15:08):
do you know Red Panda, I think.
Carmen Lezeth (15:11):
Oh, I don't know that one.
Andrea Nunez (15:12):
Yeah, it's not even out yet.
I keep seeing the commercialsand I have no idea what it's
about.
But anyway, this guy it's apassing thing I saw on social
media, so I'm probablybutchering it, but I do remember
a couple of his lines were likeI don't see myself in it, so it
was a waste of my time, it'ssomething along those lines.
I'm paraphrasing, but the Idon't see myself, and it was
(15:34):
something that he said and itwas like welcome to the
experience of every person ofcolor you have ever come into
contact with.
That's right.
You know what I mean and it's,it is, it's triggering, and he
definitely got schooled, maybegot schooled.
I don't know if he learnedanything, but you know he got
(15:56):
told and that is a verydifficult thing for people to
overcome, to stand back and belike I mean just it's the
general skill of being able tosay, oh, I have something to
learn here is something that alot of people have not learned.
Carmen Lezeth (16:12):
I have something to learn here is something that
a lot of people have not learnedyeah, not being defensive about
every single thing, likeeverything isn't about you and
everything isn't in.
I can't say the word, so Idon't know why I'm trying to use
it, but this woman that Ireacted with and we were going
on and on and she just kept, shecould not stop being defensive,
and it made me even kinder,right, it made me even nicer.
(16:37):
I kept trying to be even more,and there were other people
chiming in trying to tell herlike what are you doing?
Like you're now becoming veryracist and everything you're
saying because you're sotriggered, and I think that's
why she deleted the post.
I'm not the post, that thecomment how do you as and I've
(17:01):
always said this to you and thisis bad on my part, but I always
say you're one of the good ones, right, and what I mean by that
.
Yeah, I'm letting it all outthere on my podcast Hashtag good
ones.
What I mean by that is people.
You know we say the allies, wesay people who are allies, but
(17:21):
what I mean by that is you'renot triggered by my brilliance,
right?
If anything, you have alwayslifted me up as a woman of color
.
I have never felt that you weretrying to step on me or felt
intimidated or felt like I wastaking more from you, and I've
seen that with you on in so manyother circumstances.
Just in the way we work withpeople.
(17:41):
I've seen you talk to whitebosses that we've both had and
kind of school them in a niceway about their own racism, and
they don't even know you'reschooling them.
So how do you become thisperson or how have you or how
has it happened?
Is there something you canbottle and we can sell to other
(18:03):
white people to help walk themthrough this time period?
Andrea Nunez (18:07):
I don't know.
Yeah, I don't.
I don't know how to answer.
No, I mean, I think the answeris no, I mean it's just.
You know the secret of mysuccess.
Carmen Lezeth (18:19):
Look, and here's why because I yell at people of
color all the time becausethere's a camp that starts right
, where we're trying to beunderstanding, and there's
another camp where we're done.
We are so tired of the racism,especially when we're talking
about things that are happening,like George Floyd or you know
have happened to may he rest inpeace, but just you understand
what I'm saying Like we've hadit right.
(18:40):
And then there's people likemyself, who are, like I am
trying to be as understanding towhite people, Cause I think
white people are having astruggle right now.
They're having a major issue.
Andrea Nunez (18:50):
It is an existential struggle right now.
They're having a major issue.
It is an existential struggleright now, literally.
And that's you see, whenthere's an existential struggle,
you see people who are willingto learn, willing to change.
You see people who are waitingit out to see how it all plays
out and people who are freakingthe fuck out, sorry what is?
Carmen Lezeth (19:10):
can you explain for people like me what
existential means?
Andrea Nunez (19:15):
Meaning people think that they're, they are in
a life and death struggle, right?
I believe that the powerstructure, structures, uh, you
know, and that's it's a weirdway to say it, but the power,
you know people see that thepower structures are changing
(19:35):
right.
The country is becoming muchmore diverse and there's it's
not, it's a wave, it's thatyou're not going to stop, right,
the train has left the station,it's happening, and even the
conversation that we're having.
People wouldn't have had this20 years ago.
Carmen Lezeth (19:54):
People are still not having this conversation.
I'm going to get a lot offeedback.
Andrea Nunez (19:57):
Yeah, there's there's, you know the openness
of it, like you can see gaypeople on TV.
You know what I mean.
Like that kind of stuff whereit's just well and that doesn't
have to do necessarily withwhite people, although it does,
but I mean mean, that's a wholeother issue we'll talk about you
(20:18):
know, those kinds of things Ithink make uh a a section of
people feel like you know my wayof life, my culture, you know
the way my way of being in theworld is being threatened and
that's what I mean byexistential threat, like they
feel like it's they're in afight or flight kind of moment,
(20:39):
I think you know it's sointeresting because, as, as a
woman of color and yes, I'm onlyspeaking for myself, I cannot
speak on behalf of all people ofcolor, I you know, just to
clarify in case there's anyconfusion.
Carmen Lezeth (20:51):
I think what's really interesting is I see the
pain that white people are goingthrough and I have to tell you
black, black folk get mad at mewhen I say that, but I see it.
I see this strange, weirdfeeling like everything is being
taken away from me and it'seven worse.
It's being taken away from mefrom people who are less than or
(21:14):
don't deserve it somehow.
Right, there's just like allthis, like layering of it, and
for me it feels like I wish Icould change that thought
process in saying no one istaking anything away from you.
We're asking you to come to thetable, we're asking you to sit
at the table where we shouldhave been all along, you know,
(21:37):
and together.
But you can't see, you can't dothat We've talked about.
Andrea Nunez (21:44):
You know you're, you're a kinder, nicer person
than I am.
Um, this is actually true, itis verified.
Um, and I don't have thatunderstanding or sympathy Right
Right To me.
Like I said, I feel like it'sjuvenile, it's immature, it's,
(22:06):
uh, ignorant.
I could go on and on and on allthe things that are wrong with
that way of thinking, on and onall the things that are wrong
with that way of thinking, andyou know one, one of my biggest
pet peeves is what I callwillful ignorance, like you are
choosing to be at this point.
You are choosing to be ignoranton this topic, right.
And one of the most frustratingthings, I think, for a lot of
(22:30):
people is that, you know, itwould help everybody Most, a lot
of the people who are mostaggrieved by what they see as
this diversification of thecountry would actually benefit
in very concrete ways If theywould, as you say, come to the
table in good faith and be likelet's work together, we're in
(22:53):
this together, let's.
So I was going to be totallyPollyanna let's work together to
make the world a better place.
But I mean, that's what it'sabout, right, Make everyone's
lives better.
Carmen Lezeth (23:06):
Do you think, though, that there's also cause?
I see this with the conflicthappening right now with Ukraine
, and I hate to do that, but andI've been seeing this for a
long time People in the UnitedStates, we really believe we're
so much better than othercountries.
That's how I grew up, believing, and then realizing oh my God,
I'm not Right, we're not.
(23:27):
Is there something?
to that Right, we're so, notYou're the baddies, and I love
my country.
But I'm just saying, is theresomething to it with that as
well?
I feel like some white people Iknow are really triggered by
the idea that black people aresmart and brilliant and good and
(23:54):
, oh my God, are they on thesame level?
You know what I mean?
Mean, or are some even better,like I had someone make a
comment the other day like Ican't believe he's a CEO of that
company, and I was like what?
Why he's a Harvard grad.
You know, I went down the listof his resume and they, well, I
mean, it's just weird, right.
Andrea Nunez (24:16):
Right, yeah, I mean and I think that goes to
what I refer to as what manypeople see as their culture,
their culture of what thiscountry is and what it means all
of these kinds of you know likepropaganda really about what
(24:37):
America is, yeah, lies aboutwhat it is.
Was it ever that for blackpeople, for Latinos?
I don't think so.
Yeah, there's a pathway to theAmerican dream, maybe.
But you talk a lot of thesepeople who, like hearken back to
things were so great back inthe 50s and we were so
(25:00):
prosperous after the war and youknow you could buy a house on a
, you know, working class salary.
Let's talk to our farm workerfriends and talk and tell me how
great it was back in the 50s.
Let's talk to people who had todrink at separate drinking
fountains because of the colorof their skin.
(25:21):
It wasn't freaking great.
Sorry, I keep wanting to cuss.
Carmen Lezeth (25:25):
Yeah, why are you swearing so much on my podcast?
No, it's okay, here's the otherthing too, the reason why I
don't like period pieces so muchand people don't get this.
I and I don't really know a lotof people of color who are like
, oh my God, I love Jane Austenmovies.
Like I never am excited aboutperiod pieces Cause I already
(25:45):
know where I would be in thatperiod piece.
I do not relate.
You know what I mean, I do, youknow it's.
It's like this weird joke.
At least I'd be in the house,is what they would say.
Right, I know it's horrible, soit's.
Yeah, I just wish it was easierfor people not to be so angry
(26:06):
about the world.
You know, for me it's not thatit's changing for the good, it's
changing and it's about time.
Andrea Nunez (26:15):
Like it's like taking it back to even that post
right, like it's a social mediapost, right, it's not a world
changing thing, but it isimportant to say these things
loud and proud in order tonormalize them.
I think you even mentioned shesaid until it's not necessary,
or she does.
And are people going to have areaction?
(26:36):
Yes, they are.
And are people going to have areaction?
Yes, they are.
But people had a reaction towomen getting the right to vote
a hundred years ago.
People died and even then whitewomen were the ones who really
got the right to vote.
It wasn't until many yearslater, until people of color.
But it was a long, arduousfight, and and so is this and it
(26:57):
will continue, and we're stillpaying.
We're still trying to deal withthat, which is, yeah, there's
still a subset of people whothink that the women shouldn't
have the right to vote, andthere's always probably going to
be a subset of people who feellike, because your skin happens
to be more melanated than mine,I'm better than you.
Like, people are going to.
There's going to be people whobelieve that and that's not
going to change.
Carmen Lezeth (27:19):
I have these new clients who I absolutely love
them, but the other day somebodythis has nothing to do with
what we're talking about, it'sjust funny Somebody sent me an
email and they were like why T?
Blah, blah, blah, why T?
Whatever?
And I'm like why are thesepeople Like?
(27:39):
Why are they?
Andrea Nunez (27:40):
saying white every five, they meant youtube.
Carmen Lezeth (27:42):
That is very culturally specific you have to
keep reading this email over andover again, because I was like
but yeah, it's like the world isjust changing.
I, I and I was reading intosomething.
Yeah, because I think,culturally, people of color are
using y?
Yt more often to talk aboutwhite people.
But this was somebody referringto YouTube in an abbreviated
(28:05):
form.
I was freaking out, but look, Ithink we should.
I mean, do you have anythingelse you wanted to add?
Andrea Nunez (28:11):
I was going to wrap up, but yeah, no, just like
I said just going off of thatpost, right, it's a social media
post and there's all of this isa lot more complex than that
can convey, but I think we haveto continue to wake people up to
the inequities and trigger them, be willing to trigger them.
Carmen Lezeth (28:29):
Yeah, yeah, and I think white people need to stop
talking so much and just listen.
Like, if you look at that post,black people, people of color
and some white people there weredefinitely some white people
who were just celebrating it,were happy about it, were
excited about it.
Every white person, mostlywhite women, because, you know,
(28:51):
I went in and looked at it Angrywe're the same.
I don't see color.
I'm angry, we're the same, Idon't see color.
Oh, my good Lord, like it justwas devastating.
And so I hope, I hope, peoplegot something out of this, at
least have a conversation aboutit.
But we'll have to touch on thissubject again in our next
episode, so hopefully you'llcome back next week.
Andrea Nunez (29:12):
I will try not to cuss as much.
Carmen Lezeth (29:14):
No, you can cuss, it's all right.
It's explicit on my things.
All right, that's it for now.
We'll be back next week.
So thanks, adios, thanks forstopping by.
All about the joy.
Be better and stay beautifulfolks, have a sweet day.
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