Ep 95: Murder by Omission, Part II

Episode Transcript
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(00:33):
Well, Hello, Hello, welcomeback to another episode of All Crime,
No Cattle, a Texas true crimepodcast. I am Shay and I'm Aaron
Well. And you know, lasttime we left off on a bit of
a cliffhanger, and I know I'mvery intrigued to find out what else is
going on in this case. Welearned a lot last time. We have
a lot of interesting, compelling directionswe're going. But I want to get

(00:55):
to the end of this story.Yes, there is still so much of
the story left to tell, butfirst let's go into a recap of part
one. Equestrian and socialite Joan RobinsonHill died of a sudden, mysterious illness
in March of nineteen sixty nine.Jones's father, wealthy oil man Ash Robinson,

(01:15):
accused Jones's husband, doctor John Hill, of murdering her, and rumors
swirled around Houston that John fed Joanpoisoned pastries. Evidence, however, was
lacking, and two grand juries failedto indict John for murder. The DA's
office found a different charge to levelat John murder by omission. The state

(01:36):
now argued that John was responsible forJoan's death because he failed to treat her
properly or take her to the hospitalin a timely manner. This charge was
taken to a third grand jury,which elected to indict John, making this
the first case of murder by omissionin Texas history. Anne Kurth, Jones's
mistress turned wife turned ex wife,had claimed at the third and jury that

(02:00):
John admitted to her that he hadkilled Joan and that he tried to murder
Anne as well. Now, grandjury proceedings are held in secret, so
no one outside of the grand juryknew exactly what Anne said, but they
knew that whatever it was, itwould be bad for John. So John's
defense team, Richard Racehorse Haynes,and Don Fullenweider, fiercely tried to block

(02:23):
her from testifying at trial. Theyargued that anything Anne had to say about
her relationship with John would be coveredby spousal privilege, and that and that
any communication between them was confidential andtherefore not admissible in court. And by
the way, spousal privilege still appliesto events within a marriage even if the

(02:43):
couple has since divorced. The State, represented by Ide McMaster and Ernie Ernst,
fought equally hard for Anne to beable to testify, arguing that John
tried to harm Anne and this violencenegated spousal privilege. He said that they
needed Anne to testify to help establishJohn as a man who harmed both of

(03:05):
his wives. Eventually, Anne refinedher grievances against John into a single story
in which he claimed John tried tokill her, and the judge decided to
allow her to tell this story onthe stand. Wow, so we're finally
going to get all the juicy detailsthat the grand jury got to hear.
But like in trial, not really, the grand jury had lots of juicy

(03:28):
details to go on. That's howgrand juries are. There aren't rules against
hearsay testimony. Rules are very laxas compared to a actual murder trial.
Gotcha, So obviously what is allowedin a grand jury proceeding is going to
be completely different than what is actuallyallowed at a real trial. Yeah,
it's going to be a more refinedlike maybe like there's gonna be omissions in

(03:51):
some of the details. It's it'sgoing to be like a very produced version
of the story. Yes, prosecutorswere happy that Anne was going to be
allowed to take the stand, butsecretly they were still nervous about her testifying.
You see, over the months,Anne had told them many stories about
John that they found difficult to believe, perhaps even a little outlandish. For

(04:14):
example, Anne told prosecutors that Johnhad confessed to her what he'd done to
Joan. She said, John explainedto her that he'd taken samples from patients
at his hospital, including feces,urine, blood, and puss from a
boil, mixed them altogether, thencultured the concoction and three peatrie dishes.
She said. John told her thathe laced Joan's eclaires with the culture,

(04:38):
but said it didn't seem to affecther. He said that he then dosed
her with epicac, a medication thatis used to induce vomiting in cases of
poisoning. He said that the epicacis what caused her to start vomiting uncontrollably.
When she asked him to give hersomething to relieve her vomiting. Instead
of composing, John said he gaveher a shot filled with the rest of

(04:59):
the bacterial culture, and said hetold her quote at the end, it
was just a matter of time.She had every disease known to man.
Well, that seems a little farfetched, right, well, prosecutors agreed
with you in that regard. Notonly did they themselves find the story a
little bit implausible, they also knewthat the judge wouldn't allow this accusation to

(05:20):
be made on the stand anyway.Obviously, you can't just get on the
stand and make any accusations that youwant. That's not allowed. Yeah,
So they instructed Anne to leave thispart out of her testimony. They told
her she could talk about finding thePetrie dishes, but she was to leave
out John's statements about what he haddone with them. Prosecutors instructed Anne to

(05:42):
remain calm, tell her story aboutthe act of violence truthfully and simply,
with no embellishments. John's murder trialbegan in February nineteen seventy one, almost
two years after Joane's death. McMaster'sopening statement was a strong condemnation for John.
Quote. The estate expects to showthat the defendant, realizing his wife

(06:02):
Joane Hill's condition, intentionally and withmalice aforethought, failed to properly treat Joane
Hill and failed to provide timely hospitalizationfor her in order that she would die.
Joane's friend Van Maxwell testified first.She described the scene at the Hill
House the Saturday before Joan died,about how Joane had found out about John's

(06:24):
secret apartment and had stated out loudand fun of John that she wanted a
divorce. Van described Joan as beingin good health that Saturday night. The
state was trying to set up aclear timeline here that Joan was fine until
she mentioned divorce in front of John. She became sick the very next day.

(06:44):
The Hill's housekeeper, Effie, testifiednext. She told of how on
Monday, John instructed her not togo into Joane's room even to check on
her, and since he was gonemost of the day himself, that meant
that Joane had been left alone allday in the extremes of her illness.
She repeated how she didn't believe thatJohn had been with Joan or in the
house at all on Monday night intoTuesday morning. Again, this suggestion here

(07:09):
that prosecutors wanted to make was thatJohn was most likely with Anne that night
instead of taking care of his dreadfullysick wife. Yeah. I think Effie's
part of this whole story and hertestimony is vital for the murder of omission
charge because I think like she hasthe most evidence of John's behavior and lack
of care during this entire situation.You know, you are absolutely right.

(07:32):
But what's interesting is Effie actually finishedher testimony by saying that she liked the
hills and that she and her husbandwould happily go back to work for John.
What. Yeah, so her testimonywas very damning to him in some
senses, but at the same time, she was also a very good character
witness for John. So it's interestinghow that worked out. Yeah, it's

(07:55):
weird that her story was both beneficialto the prosecution as well as defense.
The tenth day of the trial wasthe testimony everyone wanted to hear. When
Anne Kurth finally took the stand.The prosecutor first asked Anne about how John
felt about his first wife. Sheanswered, quote, he hated her.

(08:16):
He couldn't stand to be around her. She said, John told her that
reconciling with Joan was just a ruse, and the whole time he kept promising
Anne that they'd be together soon.Anne said that about five or six days
before Joane's death, she and Johnwent to his apartment and in the bathroom
she discovered three peatree dishes sitting undera lamp. She said that inside the

(08:39):
peatree dishes was a red substance thatwas covered with white spots. She said
John told her that the room neededto be kept warm because he was performing
an experiment, and that he hurriedher out of the room. Later,
she went to the fridge, whereshe found two boxes of French pastries.
She said that she called out toJohn to tease him that he didn't get
the kind that she liked. Shesaid he came running from the other room

(09:01):
to tell her not to eat thepastries. Okay, well, there's there's
some details in here, like withthe pastries and stuff that seemed to corroborate
suspicions about the pastries being yeah,part of the delivery system if she was
poisoned. And this is the thing. Anne was actually on a very tight
leash, and they were able toget in a lot of these little details

(09:24):
that this first because this was allwhat she testified to during the first day
of her testimony. They were ableto get these things in even though technically
the judge said that she was onlyreally supposed to be testifying about that one
act of violence, So the prosecutionwas able to kind of slide all of
these other details in about the Peatreedishes and about all of that. Yeah,

(09:46):
but it is interesting though, howthey were able to sneak that in
Yeah Well. Next, Anne recountedthe act of violence where she said that
John tried to kill her. Shesaid that it happened the early morning of
June thirtieth, nineteen sixty nine,just a few weeks after they had wed.
Anne said that John had gotten intoa bad mood at dinner, complaining

(10:07):
that people were giving him dirty looksand gossiping about him, and he asked
if she'd like to go for adrive. She agreed, and she said
John drove them around aimlessly for severalhours as he listened to classical music.
At about two or three in themorning, John stopped the car and she
realized that they were just outside ofChatsworth Farm. Anne said that John pointed

(10:28):
at it and said, quote,that's where someone lived who doesn't live anymore.
She said. He started up thecar and began speeding it towards a
bridge. And now neither to you, he screamed as he crashed the car
into the side of the bridge.Anne said she wasn't wearing her seatbelt and
was able to leap to John's sideof the car, avoiding the impact,

(10:50):
which pulverized the passenger side. Shesaid John looked disappointed that she'd survived and
reached into his coat and brought outa hyperder mc needle that he attacked her,
trying to plunge the needle into herchest. Anne said she fought him
hard and he dropped the needle,but reached into his pocket and pulled out
a second one and came after herwith it again. The prosecution asked if

(11:13):
John was attempting to treat her orharm her. Anne responded that she knew
that John was trying to harm herbecause of something he told her immediately before,
and paused and then blurted out,he told me how he had killed
Joan with a needle. This wholescenario is wild and crazy. But she

(11:33):
just said on the stand that hekilled Joan with a needle. Like just
said it. She just makes adeclaration like that. I thought she wasn't
supposed to do that. She wasn't. This was absolutely not something she was
supposed to say, nor had sheever really said this before in any other
accusations against John, like she'd obviouslytold stories previously that John had said that

(11:56):
he had killed Joan with this needle. But again, you can't just make
these wild accusations on the stand ina murder trial. Your words have to
be sort of cleared by the judge, and she was not cleared to say
this horrible accusation of a confession ofmurder on the stand. John's attorneys,

(12:18):
who had been objecting strenuously throughout Anne'sentire testimony, immediately requested a mistrial,
saying that her words were prejudicial andinflammatory. After a short recess, the
judge granted the motion for a mistrial. Wow. Yeah, so after all
of this, there was a mistrialbecause Anne just couldn't mind her words.

(12:43):
Outside the courtroom, John expressed hisfrustration over the mistrial, saying that he'd
wanted to be found not guilty sohe can move on with his life.
And the thing is he probably wouldhave been acquitted. The jurors were pulled
and it appeared as though even afterAnne's testimony, they were going to acquit
him. So not only had Annecaused a mistrial, but her statements hadn't

(13:05):
even done the damage she hoped theywould against John. People didn't believe her.
They really hurt the case more thanthey did any help. Okay,
Yeah. Basically, if John wasdisappointed about the mistrial, he was able
to ease his tensions with something muchmore celebratory. Shortly after, he asked

(13:26):
his legal team if he could marryConnie Loesby and this is his current girlfriend
who is supporting him like wholeheartedly.Red. Oh yeah absolutely. His attorney's
warned that it might hurt John inthe future should he be tried again,
but they gave him his blessing,and so just four months after the mistrial,

(13:46):
John married for a third time andConnie moved into the Hillhouse to live
with John and Robert, as wellas Myra, John's mother. So we
have a big, happy family hereat the Hillhouse now. Myra had moved
in with John just after Joane's death, and she had lived in the house
during John's nine month marriage to Anne. Myra and Anne absolutely had hated each

(14:09):
other, and Myra had not beena big fan of Joan either, but
Myra and Connie got along very well. Connie was also said to be a
wonderful carrying stepmother to Robert. Sheeven opened up her home music school called
the Orpheus Music School, where shetaught lessons on several instruments, and while
John's practice had dried up to practicallynothing in advance of the murder trial,

(14:31):
the mistrial had apparently eased people's mindsabout the good doctor, and his practice
was starting to recover once again.So thanks for looking up for John.
He now had the perfect family healways wanted. Eventually, John's next trial
became scheduled for November of nineteen seventytwo, about a year and a half
after the mistrial. John was worried, naturally, but anyone could clearly see

(14:54):
his case was far from a slamdunk, and even if there wasn't yet
another the last minute schedule change,his chances for acquittal were fairly good.
Meanwhile, Ash was fuming about themistrial. He'd wanted John to be put
away for life. His grief wasmagnified by his estrangement from his grandson Robert.

(15:16):
Once the accusations that John had murderedJoan had been leveled, John forbade
the little boy to see his grandparents, which had been crushing to Ash.
He desperately wanted to get custody ofRobert, but even with all of his
money, there wasn't anything he coulddo. Meanwhile, John was personally convinced
that ashe was pushing the charges againsthim in order to get custody of Robert

(15:37):
and control of Joan's estate, whichwas worth about four hundred thousand dollars,
which again, this is back inthe day, so that's a lot of
money, even more today. Yeah. But John tried to offer a solution.
You see, back in nineteen seventyone, he had filed a ten
million dollars slander suit against Ash.He offered to drop that suit as well

(16:02):
as allowed Ash and Ray regular visitationwith Robert, if only ashe would get
the DA's office to end its pursuitagainst him, But Ash refused. It
seemed as if nothing was more importantto Ash than getting revenge against the person
he felt was responsible for his daughter'sdeath. In September of nineteen seventy two,

(16:22):
two months before John's trial was setto begin, a national conference for
plastic surgeons was scheduled to take placein Las Vegas at the famous Stardust Resort
and casino, and John planned toattend with Connie. Beforehand, though,
the couple flew up to Seattle,Connie's hometown, to go to a wedding.
Roberts stayed home looked after by Myra, so John and Connie enjoyed their

(16:45):
mini vacation together. In fact,they were having so much fun in Seattle
that when it came time to flyto the conference in Las Vegas, they
decided to play hooky and instead takea little trip to San Francisco. Their
quick trip turned two several days,and John ended up missing the great majority
of the conference, only flying inon the second to the last day.

(17:10):
Back home in Houston, Myra receiveda phone call at the Hill residence on
Saturday, September twenty third. Thecaller, who identified himself as James Gleeson,
asked if doctor Hill was home.Myra said no, John was out
of town, but that he wasexpected back the following evening Sunday, September
the twenty fourth, at around seventhirty, Myra asked the caller if he

(17:33):
was a patient of John's. Thecaller said no, but that he needed
to speak with doctor Hill urgently.Then again, on Sunday night, at
around six thirty, Myra received anotherphone call from the person identifying himself as
James Gleeson. She told him againthat she expected John would be home in
about an hour. At seven fifteen, the doorbell rang and Robert and Myra

(17:57):
excitedly ran to the door, expectingto welcome home John and Connie early and
hear all about their trip. Butthey opened the door to see a man
wearing a green piece of cloth overhis face standing there with a gun in
his hand. The man announced thisis a robbery and pointed the gun at
Robert. Robert looked like he wasgoing to start screaming, and the man

(18:18):
rushed in and grabbed him and toldhim to be quiet and he wouldn't be
hurt. Once he had quieted Robert, the man shut and locked the front
door and ushered them into the diningroom, which directly adjoined the foyer,
and made them sit on the floor. The man went to the next room,
the kitchen, and came back witha knife. At this Myra and

(18:40):
Robert began to panic, but theman produced a roll of tape and began
slicing the tape into pieces, whichhe then wound around their ankles and wrists.
He used the knife to cut offparts of Myra's sweater and shoved the
material into their mouths, then tapedtheir mouths shut in an incredible move.
Though Robert saw what was happening,and before the tape was placed over his

(19:03):
mouth, he licked the area allaround his mouth so the tape wouldn't actually
stick. That's very prescient of him. Yes, he later actually told detectives
that he'd seen the move in aTV show. Huh okay, interesting,
Yes, it makes sense though aroundthe gag. Myra told the man that
doctor Hill would be home any minute. She said he responded, quote,

(19:27):
that's all right, I'll be readyfor him. And that's the moment she
knew this was not a robbery.This man was in the house to kill
her son. She said. Theman left the room and she could hear
him doing something in the living room, which was another room right off from
the foyer. After a few agonizingminutes, Myra and Robert heard the sound

(19:48):
of a taxi pulling up outside,and they heard John and Connie's voices.
The doorbell rang. With all theirmight, Myra and Robert struggled against their
bindings and tried to scream out warningsfor John and Connie not to enter the
house. The man came storming backinto the dining room and kicked Myra directly
in the throat, and then turnedand kicked Robert in the side of the

(20:11):
head. He then left the room, heading in the direction of the front
door. Connie would later describe whathappened next. The door to her home
opened and a man wearing a greencloth around his head was there, brandishing
a gun. The man lunged forConnie, grabbing her blouse and necklace,
and said this is a robbery.John rushed up and was able to push

(20:33):
himself between them, breaking the man'sgrasp on Connie. She turned and bolted
for a neighbor's house to try toget help. Robert and Myra heard the
sounds of an intensive struggle as flowervases and other items in the richly furnished
foire tumbled to the floor. Thencame the sounds of four gunshots and a
cry of pain that sounded like John's. And then the worst sound of all

(20:57):
came, the sound of silence.Because of his trick, Robert was able
to pull the tape from his mouthand spit the gag out and make it
to the phone in the kitchen,where he dialed the operator and reported that
his father had been shot. Stillbound, he hobbled into the foyer,
where he found his father face downand unmoving. In a pool of blood.

(21:19):
Oh my god. Yeah, sobrave of him to be able to
get there to the phone and doall that. Absolutely, Oh my god.
Okay. Meanwhile, Connie, inher flight from the house, had
also heard the gunfire. She contactedauthorities and then placed a phone call to
Don full and Wider, one ofJohn's attorneys, who just happened to live

(21:41):
right across the street from them.Don rushed to the Hill house, arriving
before law enforcement and EMS teams gotto the scene. He tentatively entered the
home to see John dead on thefloor, with Robert standing over him,
crying out, They've killed my daddy. Don picked up Robert and took him
outside so that they could meet withthe rescue teams as they were coming in.

(22:04):
Minutes later, the EMS team arrivedand rushed to check on John,
but there was nothing they could do. John Hill was indeed already dead.
When his body was turned over,they discovered that not only had John been
shot multiple times, but his killerhad also taped his eyes, nose,
and mouth closed before fleeing the sceneof the crime. That's a weird detail,

(22:27):
yeah, really was like they incase he survived, they wanted him
to suffocate. Yes, that's whatit appeared to be. It's almost like
a hit job, you know,like they came with a mission, they
knew what they needed to do,and John was not going to survive.
Yeah, and that's actually what somepeople thought initially. This does appear to
be some sort of assassination or ahit or you know, a mafia tie

(22:49):
something like that, because of theway it was done, that not only
he was shot to death, butthat that tape around his head to make
him suffocate, the extra measures andall that. Exactly. Nothing was missing
from the house except for John's briefcase, the one he was carrying with him
on his flight back from Las Vegas, along with his wallet and billfold.

(23:12):
Myra was discovered still bound and gaggedon the dining room floor. She was
taken to the hospital for her injuries. The kick to her throat had been
vicious, and she was unable tospeak for several days, but she was
able to make a full recovery.Robert was likewise treated. He was physically
unharmed, but that says nothing ofthe mental toll of what he and Myra

(23:34):
went through. Oh, I'm sure, yes, Remember Robert was just twelve
years old. And now his motherand father were dead, and he was
essentially an eyewitness to his father's murder. Yeah, it's like a Batman scenario.
Batman had to watch his parents bemurdered in front of him, you
know, like it's there's no wayto quantify the torment that that child had

(23:56):
to endure, especially he's the onewho got to nine one one first exactly.
I mean, yes, it's justan awful situation. John's body was
taken to be autopsied at the HarrisCounty Morgue. Doctor Himchek, the county
corner involved in Joan's death investigation threeyears earlier, also performed John's autopsy as
well. Wait, was this theguy that had the random brain in the

(24:18):
trunk or was that a different guy? That was doctor Morse the hospital pasag
This is the county corner. Okay, I feel better about this thing.
Yeah, no, I don't wanttrunk brain doctor working down this case any
further. He found that John hadbeen shot three times, once in the
right wrist, once in the upperleft shoulder, and once in the stomach.

(24:41):
The bullet to his stomach had tornthrough his aorda, leading to massive
blood loss that would have left Johndead within minutes of the injury. Doctor
Himcheck guess that the tape had beenplaced around his face to ensure that John
would die, but he found thatJohn had died from blood loss the bullet
wound as opposed to suffocation from thetape. So I guess it was probably

(25:04):
a bit of a better death,I suppose then suffocating from tape around your
mouth. Yeah, I suppose.I don't know. It was probably terrified
and it's hard to quantify like whichis better, but I think it is
something to say at least that hedid dive pretty quickly, within a few
minutes. Yeah, he didn't haveto live, or you didn't have to
suffer. Yeah, yeah, wellhe didn't suffered a little bit, but

(25:26):
yeah, yeah, he didn't haveto suffer for a long amount of time
exactly. Yeah, but still itwas a grizzly death where John had sustained
injuries from a beating as well asincluding a broken nose. So this was
just just a very nasty murder ingeneral. Houston detectives descended upon the scene
and were able to collect evidence thatthe killer had left behind. There was

(25:49):
the roll of tape, a spentshell casing from a thirty eight caliber bullet,
and an entire finger from one ofthe work gloves the man had been
wearing during the whole orde. Theglove had gotten caught up in the tape
on one of the victim's faces andhad torn right off. So there was
actually just like a finger in Englandfrom one of their face tapes when they

(26:11):
were found. Yeah, and Ithink they could have done fingerprints back then
at this point, and there wasa lot of tape that was being used,
So if a glove's off, thenmaybe there's some fingerprints on some tape
somewhere or maybe well that's what theywere hoping, but unfortunately, they found
no fingerprints anywhere throughout the house oron any of these pieces of evidence that
they found. They also had thegreen cloth that the man had been wearing

(26:34):
over his head. It was foundclose to John's body as if it had
been ripped off in the struggle.It turns out that the cloth was actually
a pillow case with holes that hadbeen cut out for eyes. Simple yet
very creepy. Extremely Yeah, andunfortunately, no one in all of River

(26:55):
Oaks had heard or seen anything suspiciousthe evening that John Hill died naturally,
suspicion was cast immediately upon one man, Ash Robinson had ashe ordered a hit
on his ex son in law nowbut to try to dispel rumors ashe made
a public statement to a journalist thathe was not involved in John's death,

(27:18):
and many believed him since Robert hadbeen involved in this situation, ashe obviously
loved the boy, and Robert hadbeen put through terrible physical danger as well
as tremendous trauma as a result ofwhat happened. It didn't make sense to
people that ashe would have allowed thatto happen to his grandchild. Sure,

(27:38):
But on the other hand, ifyou're the authorities, he does have the
motive to hire a hit. Hehas the money and the funds and the
power and the connections to probably getin contact with somebody who could arrange such
a thing. Yeah, so you'regoing to probably be extremely suspicious of Ash
Robinson. But do you have anythingto actually go on? I mean no,

(28:00):
But who else are you going tolook at? In this particular point
in the case. It seems prettycut and dry and clear that Ash Robinson
is the major suspect in the case. Yeah, agreed, And that's in
the back of everybody's minds right now. About a week after the murder,
there was a break in the case. Some neighborhood kids discovered John's briefcase about

(28:21):
a block away from the Hill house. Detectives poked around the area and sticking
out of the mud a few feetaway, they found a thirty eight caliber
revolver. Wow, this is ahuge find. Yes, absolutely, By
comparing the shell casing found at thescene of the crime, ballistics testing confirmed
that this was the gun that hadbeen used to kill John Hill. This

(28:42):
also seems really sloppy though, likewith the murder weapon and the briefcase just
being discarded a little bit away.Absolutely, it was. It appeared as
if perhaps the killer had just thrownthe stuff away as they were running away
from the scene of the crime.Detectives track the serial number and discovered that
the gun had been purchased in nineteensixty nine in Longview, Texas by a

(29:06):
doctor named William Mitchell by another doctor. Another doctor now Thompson in his book
refers to William Mitchell as doctor OrnStaves, and perhaps he did this to
offer anonymity to doctor Mitchell for aswe're going to see his story was a
little embarrassing. You see, DoctorMitchell was a very rich doctor who enjoyed

(29:29):
spending his time and money on ladiesof the evening. Okay. He explained
to detectives that about six months earlier, he had been spending an evening with
two such ladies when they stole hiscar and three thousand dollars of cash from
him and left town. He saidthat he grabbed his thirty eight Revolver with
the intention of chasing after them,but he got distracted when another sex worker

(29:52):
friend named Dusty dropped by. WhatBut then Dusty ended up stealing the revolver
from him too. Okay, lota lot to keep track of the line
of events of how you lost yourrevolver. Okay, Now, he said
he hadn't seen Dusty nor the gunsince this happened. Doctor Mitchell said that

(30:15):
Dusty was the young woman's working name, but that he thought her real name
was Marcia McKittrick. He said thatshe was a traveling sex worker, so
detectives knew that she would be someonewho would be constantly moving from city to
city, spot to spot and wouldbe very hard to track down. Detectives
learned from people on the Street,that Marsha had a boyfriend named Bobby,

(30:37):
but no one was sure of hislast name. Bolton went out nationwide that
Houston pde wanted to speak to MarshaMcKittrick and her associate Bobby regarding a murder,
but for months the two were unableto be located and the investigation dragged
to a snail's pace. Throughout thisinitial investigation, though one name kept popping
up unexpectedly, Lilla Pollis from theoutside. Fifty four year old Lilla Paulis

(31:03):
was an ordinary housewife who lived ina nice house and a nice area of
Houston. Her husband of twenty fiveyears, Claude Pollis, just passed away
in nineteen seventy one from a heartattack, and she was still grieving him.
But the rumor was that Lilla andher late husband had actually been a
part of a criminal enterprise, thatClaude owned a club that was a front

(31:26):
for an illegal gambling operation, thathe was a bookie for Houston's wealthiest citizens,
and that he allegedly owned a fewbrothels down in Galveston. Lila herself
had been a sex worker with arest for prostitution and vagrancy in the forties,
before she met and married Claude.In her later years and even after
Claude's death, Lila was said toplay hostess to a lot of Houston's underworld

(31:51):
while still pretending to be a normal, upper middle class lady. Word on
the street was that Lilla was verygood friends with Marsha McKittrick. Claude and
Lilla had a daughter named Mary Josephine, who as a little girl had ridden
horses competitively. Although Mary Joe wouldhave been much younger than Joan Robinson,
it made sense that they could haveknown each other. Perhaps Lilla Paulis was

(32:14):
the connection between the murder of JohnHill and Ash Robinson himself. Wow,
that is a lot of people ina lot of details really quickly. You're
right, but you only have tokeep track of three names right now,
three people related to this initial partof the investigation when they're first looking into
the murder of John Hill. It'sMarsha McKittrick. She is in her early

(32:35):
twenties, she's a sex worker,and we know that she stole the gun
that was used to murder John Hill. Then there is her boyfriend Bobby.
Right now, there's just maybe thesuggestion that he had something to do with
the murder, but nobody knows forsure. They're just looking to talk to
him in regards to John Hill's murder, a potential suspect, yes. And

(32:57):
then finally we have Lila Paulis.She is in her early fifties, so
there is an age gap between herand Marcia and Bobby who was in his
early thirties, so she's a bitof a mother figure. And word on
the street is that Lila and Marciaare friends. So people are like,
does Lila have something to do withthis murder? And there's also this weird
thing of Lilla's seemed to be ina position of society to have a connection

(33:22):
with Ash Robinson through her daughter whowas also riding horses. Okay, does
all that kind of make a littlebit more definitely? I think that clears
everything up a lot more. Okay. Cool. Suddenly, in nineteen seventy
three, one of the Houston detectivesworking John's case received a call from the
Dallas office of the Department of PublicSafety. They'd received a tip from an

(33:44):
informant that a man named Bobby VanDiver wanted in connection from murder in Houston.
Was hiding out in a cabin nearLake Dallas. Oh, okay,
so this is a Bobby of likeat least in a name or an alias
that's out there. Yes, thesame exactly. So now we got the
full name of the suspect of Bobbyvan Diver. A team of officers descended

(34:07):
upon the cabin and Bobby was arrestedwithout incident. Bobby was already in a
lot of trouble at the age ofthirty two upon his arrest. Bobby had
been a lifelong criminal. In fact, he was basically a professional burglar.
That's often how he made his money, along with some pimping and various other
legal jobs as well. But thatalso might mean that he might be the

(34:30):
gunman since like you know, yeah, by invading a home, you know
that kind of thing. Yeah,involved in that kind of criminal activity.
He had an outstanding warrant for notappearing in court to face a charge of
possessing burglary tools. That charge wouldbe his fourth felony, and if convicted,

(34:51):
he would be facing a possible lifesentence. And that's with the murder
of John Hill notwithstanding. Okay,so he's anything else, He's already staring
down a life sentence. Wow,so Bobby has a lot going on.
It sounds like absolutely Yeah. Bobbydeclined an attorney and agreed to speak to
investigators, but he told them little. They asked him directly if he killed

(35:15):
doctor John Hill in September of nineteenseventy two, but Bobby denied it,
saying that he was in Dallas atthe time. He also denied knowing anyone
by the name of Marsha McKittrick.So the detectives laid out what they knew.
They told Bobby that they believed thatMarsha McKittrick stole a gun from a
doctor in Longview, gave it tohim, and that he used that gun

(35:36):
to kill doctor John Hill. Butthen the detectives took a gamble that they
later explained was based on total speculation. They told Bobby they were aware that
the murder happened because of Lilla Paulus. Wow, that was a gamble,
total gamble, just to guess that'swhat they said. Yeah. Bobby's shocked
reaction confirmed for detectives that Lilla Paulusindeed was involved, and Bobby decided to

(36:02):
talk as soon as Lilla Polas's namewas mentioned. He asked to speak to
the DA's office about what he knew, and they worked out a deal.
If Bobby made a full confession aboutthe murder and testified in court against his
co conspirators Marsha McKittrick and Lilla Poulis, then the DA would recommend the judge
give him a twelve year sentence,where he could expect to be out between

(36:24):
two and five years for good behavior. Well it's a bargain, yeah,
and that probably sounded a lot betterthan life, right, So Bobby,
in honor of being the first personcaught, became the first one to make
himself a pretty sweet deal in return. Over the next nine days, Bobby
told them everything he knew about John'smurder. Bobby said that he'd met Marsha

(36:47):
McKittrick in nineteen seventy one and thatthey had a sort of on and off
again relationship. He said Marcia movedaround a lot, but when she came
to Houston, she frequently stayed witha woman named Lila Paulus. He said
that one day in the summer ofnineteen seventy two, Marcia came to him
and told him Lilla wanted to knowif Bobby was interested in taking a five

(37:09):
thousand dollar contract for a murder.At first, Bobby said that he said
no to the job, that he'dnever considered murdered before. But Bobby explained
that his girlfriend, Vicky, hadjust gotten pregnant and the pregnancy was difficult
and both Vicky and the baby werein danger of dying. Bobby said that
he needed the money for medical bills, and in his desperation, he decided

(37:32):
to take up the contract. Bobbysaid that's when Lilla gave him the details
for the job. He said,Lila told him that the target was a
plastic surgeon named doctor John Hill,who had killed his wife by poisoning her
with bacteria he'd grown in his bathroom. Well, that sounds very similar to
things that we've heard already. Mm. She said that doctor Hill's son was

(37:54):
to be unharmed, but that itdidn't matter what happened to anyone else who
got the way. He said.Lila told him that the dead wife's father
was the one who wanted the hit, but that Lila had carefully only referred
to him as my man or theold man, so he didn't know his
name. That is a direct connectionto ash so in this scenario, this

(38:19):
story, Lila in the criminal underground, this older matriarch in the criminal game
on the streets doing hits for people. She somehow has connections to Ash and
that this is verification that he calledthe hit. Yes, wow, there
is a lot more, okay,Bobby said. Lilla gave him one thousand

(38:42):
dollars in cash upfront money she saidthat the old Man gave her. She
said that the rest would come afterthe job was done. She told him
that she was being paid by theold Man separately for setting up the contract,
but she didn't mention how much moneyshe would be making in the deal.
Lila gave Bobby picture of John Hillthat she said the old Man had
provided for him. Bobby said,Lila laughed at how the old man had

(39:07):
cut the photo into the shape ofa coffin. That does seem like something
the old man Ash would do,cutting his picture into a coffin. I
mean, we already know he hateshim. Oh yes, And to Lila,
apparently, at least this is whatBobby said. He said that she
thought it was kind of funny,and she commented upon the fact that,
oh, that old m Effer reallywants John Hill did just the level of

(39:31):
levity that people have that are hiringhitman incredible, weird, Bobby said.
Together, he, Marcia, andLila drove out to Kirby Drive on at
least three different occasions, where Lilapointed out the Hillhouse to them, and
they drove around river Oaks to getfamiliar with the neighborhood and planning to scape

(39:52):
route. Lila also provided a drawingof the layout of the house, as
well as newspaper clippings that covered Jones'sdeath and the mistrial. She even took
them to the Hermann Professional Building whereJohn's office was so they could case the
place. Bobby said that he beganto get a little skeptical about the hit
around this time. John was eitherat work in a busy hospital or office

(40:16):
or at home in a house fullof family and staff. Yeah, so
it's just like hard to plan outthe logistics incredibly. Yeah. He also
lived in the rich, well kept, crime free landscape of river Oaks Euston.
Yeah, and like you said,nobody in that gated community saw anything,
Yes, which is shocking in ofitself. Honestly, there were a

(40:37):
lot of obstacles for a clean hithere, especially for only five thousand dollars.
In fact, Bobby said, Lilamentioned to him that the contract had
actually been available for years and Hitmanmuch more experienced than he had been interested,
but ultimately turned the contract down becauseof how messy it all was for
years, for years at least tillmaybe nineteen sixty eight when Joon died.

(41:00):
I guess, well, or atleast until you find someone who has enough
desperate times that it calls for desperatemeasures to get it done, which that's
what it seems like with Bobby,like he was desperate and needed the money
and went for the gamble, triedto pull it off. Yeah, this
all seems to track though. Sofar, so far. Yeah. Bobby

(41:21):
said that near the beginning of September, Marcia called doctor Hill's office to check
on his schedule, and that's howthey learned about the plastic surgery conference happening
in Las Vegas. They called theStardust Hotel and learned that doctor John Hill
did indeed have a room booked forthat conference. Bobby said they decided to
kill John while he was in LasVegas, where it could look like a

(41:45):
completely random robbery. He and Marciadrove up to Las Vegas and laid in
waiting for him for two weeks.But as we know, John never showed
up because they went to that littletrip to San Francisco. Yeah, they
were playing hooky right, yeah,basically, so they actually got to the
convention about the same time that Bobbyand Marcia left in frustration, thinking that

(42:07):
John had skipped the convention. What'sso weird? How he escaped a murder
plot, not knowing that a murderplot existed, just to come home to
eventually get murdered like that is wild? Yeah, I mean this was a
very serious plan. He was goingto be murdered no matter what. Well.
Frustrated, they returned to Lila's housein Houston to regroup, only to

(42:30):
discover that they had just missed Johnand Connie in Las Vegas. Lila said
that the Old Man's contacts had informedhim that John and Connie had gone to
Seattle to retrieve fifteen thousand dollars incash that John would be bringing home to
pay his attorneys for his upcoming murdertrial that was scheduled for November. Let

(42:51):
me guess this is what's going tobe in the briefcase. Maybe, well,
that's what Bobby says he was told. Bobby says, Lila specifically said
the old Man had all these contactsthat were watching John and that they knew
for sure John had between fifteen andpossibly even twenty five thousand dollars in cash
on him coming home from Las Vegas, so that gives him more impetus to

(43:14):
go forward with this. It absolutelydid, because the old Man told Lila,
who then told Bobby that if Johnwas killed as he returned home,
Bobby would be able to get awaywith all of that cash as a bonus.
Ah, okay, the incentive,I see it, Lila said.
The old man said John and Conniewere expected to return the very next night,

(43:35):
on Sunday, but that he didn'tknow what flight they were on,
so they had to rush to puteverything together. Lila got the phone number
to the Hillhouse from the old Man, and Bobby made the phone calls to
the Hill House on Saturday and Sundayto get updates on John's arrival. Get
those weird calls that we heard aboutyes where he spoke to Myra Marsha called

(43:55):
two different airlines that flew between LasVegas and Houston to get arrival time so
they could calculate exactly when he'd behome. Bobby said that in robberies he
always wore a ski mask and gloves. This was like his uniform. However,
it being late summer in Texas,ski masks were pretty hard to come

(44:15):
by, so Lila had dug throughher linen closet and given him the green
pillowcase to wear over his head.Okay, well it's probably breathed a little
bit better, yea. It isalso interesting that the flight information on when
their comings and goings were going tobe because like as of today, all
that stuff's available online, you know, and like that seems like you have

(44:37):
to do a lot more leg workback in the day to find out when
people's flights we're going to arrive.Yeah, I guess, so more leg
work for murder and more chances tobe caught as we're actually going to see.
Yeah, well we need a shirt. That's just more legwork for murder.
At about seven on Sunday night,Bobby said, Marsha dropped him off

(44:58):
at the Hill House. The planwas that after the job was done,
Bobby would walk on foot to theHouse of Pies, which is a restaurant
right down the street on Kirby Drive, where Marsha would be waiting as the
getaway driver. So do they servepie? I think so. Actually,
House of Pies sounds really delicious.Ye want I want meat pies like regular

(45:21):
pies, like it's just pies likeeverything on the menus dinner, pie,
dessert, pie went to the Houseof Pie. I looked it up.
It's still in existence in the exactlocation. Yes, okay, a few
miles from the Hillhouse. One ofour listeners needs to go and eat at
House of Pies and like send usphotos from eating there. I want to

(45:44):
see the menu absolutely. I wantto know everything about House of Pies and
I want to eat there one dayin my life. Yeah. So,
Marsha would be waiting in the parkinglot of House of Pies, and Bobby
had the number to the pay phonein the parking lot so he could call
and get a hold of her.Bobby described entering the house, tying up

(46:04):
Robert and Myra and waiting for Johnand Connie to arrive. He described answering
the door and grabbing for Connie beforeshe broke away and ran. He said
John came after him, pulled thepillow case off his head, and went
for the gun. Bobby hit Johnin the face and fired the gun at
him, hitting him in the wristfirst. Bobby said that he aimed the

(46:24):
gun at John again and told himhold it, but John came for him
once again. Bobby shot him asecond time, which hit him in the
shoulder, but he said John stillwouldn't stay down. They wrestled for the
gun and it went off again.Bobby guessed that the bullet hit the ceiling.
Bobby said that he punched John,who fell back, and he shot

(46:45):
him again, this time squarely inthe stomach. He said that John fell
down and this time he did notget back up. Bobby went through his
pockets and grabbed his wallet and billfold. He put the tape around John's nose,
eyes, and mouth, and thengrabbed John's briefcase and ran out the
door. He'd expected to be ableto calmly walk away from the house,

(47:07):
but with Connie having run off,he knew the area would be soon crawling
with police and he needed to getrid of the gun and briefcase. Oh
okay, so this is the thisis the reason why he dumped everything absolutely,
But before he stopped to open thebriefcase and count his new fortune.
Of course, again, he's expectingbetween fifteen twenty five thousand dollars in cash

(47:29):
to be in this briefcase. Hewas alarmed to find nothing inside of John's
briefcase besides some paperwork. Altogether,John had only been carrying about eight hundred
dollars at the time of his death, and that's what Bobby received. Well,
that's probably another reason why you shouldn'tbe a horrible hitman. Yeah,

(47:49):
should murder people probably results. Yeah. Bobby said that he threw the briefcase
and the gun away in some bushesand kept moving, only to realize that
he was lost. He found apay phone and called Marcia, who came
and picked him up. Bobby finishedhis story by insisting that he hadn't intended
on actually killing John at all.He said that he had just gone to

(48:13):
the house to steal the briefcase ofmoney. He said that he'd only ended
up killing John because John wouldn't stopcoming after him. Of course, this
is all something that could be doubtful. Whether or not Bobby intended to murder
John that night, sure, that'sup in the air, but either way,
Bobby does admit during this conversation thathe did indeed kill John Hill.

(48:37):
And also a lot of these detailsmatch up with what we know about the
crime scene the case so far,you know, it seems to line up,
So Bobby is definitely the guy.Yes, these are very very specific
details about this murder. Bobby absolutelywasn't the man to have killed John Hill.

(48:58):
Wow, what a confession. Absolutely, and he also added that months
after the murder, Vicki ended upmiscarrying the baby. So the whole reason
that Bobby said he was doing thisin the first place kind of just blew
up in his face. Bobby saidthat they drove back to Lilla's house and
told her that John Hill was dead. Lila handed him the remaining four thousand

(49:22):
dollars, And this is probably oneof the most shocking things to me about
this case. Bobby gave Lila fifteenhundred dollars of it back, saying that
he wanted her to have it tocover some of their expenses and as sort
of a finder's fee for getting himthe job. This is so wild to

(49:44):
me because Bobby knew that Lilla wasalready being paid for her job for being
the middleman between whoever was hiring forthe job and Bobby Lilia was being paid
for that separate so he's basically givingher a tip. Yes, thanks,
fifteen hundred dollars tip out of hisfive thousand dollars for being the one to

(50:06):
actually pull the trigger and do themurder. Bobby's not a smart guy,
so I don't know if this wasa thing where Bobby was trying to be
chivalrous and take care of Lilla orwhatever. But we're going to talk later
about the figure Lilla was speculated tohave been paid for her role in all
of this, and let's just sayshe didn't need that fifteen hundred dollars.
I want to know about those details. I'm excited to understand the inner workings

(50:30):
of that relationship. Yeah, butthe thing is Bobby did need that money.
They needed as much money as possibleto go on the run. Remember
the gun in the briefcase were founda week later, and that freaks them
out, so they realize that theyneed to get out of town. Bobby
used the money to buy a car. He drove himself and Marsha to California,

(50:53):
and he set themselves up in anapartment in Los Angeles. But they
kept hearing news back. But theykept hearing news from back home of law
enforcement, even the Texas Rangers outlooking for them. The pressure of fear
and stress was so great that Marcia, who'd struggled with drug addiction before,

(51:13):
began using heroin. Her addiction grewso powerful so quickly that it wasn't long
before she was shooting up hundreds ofdollars a day. So basically, this
is where all of that money goes, is to just taking care of them
while they're on the run. Soat the end of the day they're left
with nothing. Yeah, pretty much. After a while, Marcia grew tired

(51:34):
of hunkering down in the apartment andshe left, flying to Las Vegas and
getting back into her old line ofwork there immediately back with her high end
clients, making good money. Overthe next months, Marcia and Bobby had
continued like this, meeting up inDallas or LA before separating once again and
going about their separate lives. Bobby'sfriend had offered him the cabin to stay

(51:59):
in, and he'd been there thelast few weeks until, of course,
his arrest. Well, this allseems to fall together, yeah, absolutely,
and Bobby's testimony could help put awayboth Marcia and Lila for their roles
in John's death, but he knewvery little about their mysterious benefactor, the

(52:19):
man Lila seemed to know so well, who'd wanted doctor Hill dead so badly,
The old man, that's right.Bobby did say that it was possible
that Marcia knew a lot more thanhe did, but Bobby had no idea
where she was. He said thatwith Marsha's line of work, in her
contacts, and her wealthy clientele,she could be anywhere. And so,

(52:42):
with Bobby's statements and the evidence available, on April twenty fifth, nineteen seventy
three, Bobby Van Diver and MarshaMcKittrick were indicted for the murder of John
Hill, while Lila Paulus was indictedfor being an accomplice to murder. Lila
was arrested at her new fiance houseand consented to a search of her home.

(53:02):
Detectives were hoping that they could finda pillowcase that matched the one Bobby
said that she had given him towear, but there they had no such
luck. However, there were severalslips of paper found near a telephone in
the den that peaked investigator's interests.The first slip of paper was a detailed
schedule of the arrival times of flightscoming from Las Vegas and landing in Houston.

(53:28):
At the bottom of that slip ofpaper was written the name Dusty and
the name and phone number of theWilliam Penn Hotel, a hotel that Marsha
frequently stayed at when she was meetingclients in Houston. On a nightstand in
the back bedroom of the house,a blank check was found for a joint
account owned by Lila and Claude Paulis. On the back of the check was

(53:50):
a handwritten note that read, youhad better tell Ash that they are trying
to subpoena. Ma mob By theway, was how Ash and many others
referred to his wife Ray Well,I mean that seems very specific as far
as the details the names. Wehave some aliases that people are going by,
like I mean, we have Ash, So we have a written connection

(54:13):
to Ash Robinson, it seems like. And finally, there was a sealed
letter found in Lilla's house that hadbeen written and signed by Marcia McKittrick.
It looked like she'd written the letterwhile staying with Lila, but never sent
it out, So we have allof these connections to both Ash Robinson and
Marsha McKittrick found at Willa's house.Now, there was one more slip of

(54:35):
paper found, but it was foundin Lilla's purse. It was a phone
number. That number was traced andit turned out to be a private,
unlisted phone number installed at Ash Robinson'shouse temporarily right around the time of John's
death. Well, that seems likethe nail on the coffin seems pretty significant.
And a search of her phone recordsfound phone calls from Lilla's howe to

(55:00):
the Stardost Hotel and two airlines inthe days before John's death that seemed to
corroborate Bobby's statements of how they plannedthe murder altogether. So there were lots
of little bits of evidence that supportedBobby's statements about Lilla being the middleman in
the murder contract. But Lilla herselfrefused to talk and she denied any knowledge

(55:21):
of her co conspirators, Ash Robinsonor the late doctor Hill. I mean,
she might be the smartest one inthis criminal operation. You're probably right
about that. It depends on yourdefinition of smart though, I guess you
would have to say I mean,I don't feel like Lila Paulas was that
Smart's like an grizzled criminal veteran thathas experience and is wearing this mask to

(55:45):
blend in too high flute and society, but also has ties to the underground.
A very captivating idea and concept fora criminal mastermind. Yeah, I
would say that's a great description ofWilla Poulas. Yes. Marcia McKittrick,
meanwhile, was actually in Dallas whenthe news about the indictments came down and

(56:07):
she saw her and Bobby's mugshots onthe front pages of all the local papers.
She realized that Bobby must have beenarrested and that he must have talked,
and she felt the danger closing infor her, so for the first
time, she contacted her lawyer andtogether they flew to Houston and Marcia turned

(56:28):
herself into authorities. However, herlawyer immediately paid her bond, and before
anyone had a chance to speak withher, Marcia disappeared once again. This
was actually very smart of her.Yeah, that is smart. So she's
just gone in the wind again,yep. And she's refusing to speak to
the DA's office, to any lawenforcement, anybody at all. She's street
smart, right, Yeah, sheknows not to talk to the cops.

(56:51):
Yeah, exactly, get away whenyou can. Yeah, that is smart.
Meanwhile, Bobby had done well forhimself. He was now charged with
first degree murderer. Sure, buthe was also the state's star witness in
a hot murder trial. And he'sgot that plea bargain, right, he
does have that plea bargain. Butit gets even better for Bobby if you
can believe that. Okay, Bobbywas able to get himself some pretty sweet

(57:14):
perks for someone in his position.His longtime girlfriend Vicky was flown in and
the two were set up in amotel nearby, all of which was paid
for by the DA's office. Theyeven arranged for a job waiting tables for
Vicky and gave Bobby a couple hundreddollars just for spending money. But after
several weeks, Bobby grew bored andbegged the assistant DA to allow him to

(57:37):
return with Vicky to Dallas. Hesaid it would just look like he was
out on bond before the murder trial, no one would know he was actually
cooperating with the DA's office. Bobbysaid that he'd come right back and turn
himself in, testify and begin servinghis sentence whenever they needed him to,
and the DA's office allowed it.So they're like, yeah, you can

(57:59):
just go on to Dallas and doyour thing, and whenever we need you
to come back and testify, we'regonna call you, Bobby. You got
a good thing going, Bobby.But then in September of nineteen seventy three,
Marcia McKittrick was arrested in Dallas tryingto cash a forged check, and
Houston detectives went to go speak toher. Marcia had spent the past years

(58:20):
since John's murder spiraling further and furtherinto a heroin addiction, and upon her
arrest, she was an absolute agonyand suffering from very serious withdrawal symptoms.
However, detectives said that Marcia agreedto speak with him freely, and she
ended up confessing to everything. Okay, so we have a second confession now,

(58:40):
we sure do, and this oneblows Bobbies even out of the water.
Okay. Marcia said that she firstmet Lilla at the beginning of nineteen
seventy two, and that she andLila had become friends very quickly. She
confirmed that she stayed at Lilla's housefrequently whenever she came to town. She
said that Lila was fully aware thatshe was a sex worker and only requested

(59:04):
that Marshauld not bring her clients toher house. She said that she'd heard
rumors about the murder contract for awhile, but Lila didn't approach her about
it until that summer, the summerof nineteen seventy two, when she asked
if Bobby would be interested in thatkind of work. So this information,
this murder contract was just floating aroundto where she had heard about it.
Loosely, well, she heard aboutit because she had been staying with Lila

(59:28):
off and on through those first fewmonths, so she kind of heard it
in passing at Lila's house, butagain, a Lila didn't approach her about
it until that summer. That makessense. It's it's just a weird concept
to have if you're not a partof that world personally. I've never heard
of just vague murder contract talk,like, you know, like it's just

(59:49):
so normalized and so strange. Yeah, between TV shows and conversations with friends
that I heard about it. Itwas around, Yeah, just you know,
very calm, relaxed conversation about murder. I don't get it. It's
not a world we live in.Marcia confessed to stealing the guns so Bobby
could use it in the crime,and she said that she called around to

(01:00:10):
hotels and airports from Lula's house whileplanning the murder, and that she was
the getaway driver. She confessed tobasically everything. Her statements strengthened Bobby's and
enhanced the case against Lula Paulas,but it also gave other supporting details that
Bobby hadn't known. Most importantly,Marcia confirmed that, yes, the enigmatic

(01:00:32):
old man that Lula had always referredto was, in fact Ash Robinson.
Marcia said she knew this because shemet him several times. Things aren't looking
good for Ash Robinson at all.You've gotten multiple sources now really cementing your
name in this case with good detailsthat are further concreting this idea of how

(01:00:54):
this murder plot went down. Andit just doesn't seem good for him.
It seems like it's end of time. Well it doesn't, because, believe
me, Marcia has a lot ofvery specific things to say about him.
Marsha said that the first time shemet Ashe was in the summer of nineteen
seventy two, when Ashe had cometo Lila's house and Lilia had introduced him

(01:01:14):
as an old friend. Ashe explainedthat he and Lila met through their daughters,
who had ridden horses together. Shesaid. Ashe came back over the
summer another three to four times whileMarcia was there, and Marcia heard him
speak about other details of his life. She said, he mentioned that he
wanted to get custody of his grandson, but that it wouldn't happen unless John

(01:01:37):
Hill was convicted of murder or wasdead. She said. Ashe said that
the mistrial had been painful because hewas positive John had murdered his daughter and
that he wanted justice. In time, she said, Lila dropped all pretense
and flat out told her that AsheRobinson was the one who wanted doctor Hill

(01:01:57):
dead. She said that Lila toldher that she too had cared deeply for
Joan. She said that Joan hadbeen kind to marry Joe and had helped
her in horse riding competitions. Shepainted John to be a horrible villain who
deserved a harsh death. So Imean I think that this is something that's
kind of important as well as atleast according to Marcia and Bobby, Lila

(01:02:20):
also had a relationship with Joan andwas also upset for the way Joan died
and also took that out on John. Yeah, there's another weight there from
someone else who has a connection tothe underground, who couldn't get a hit
man. There's multiple strings that drawit back to the death of Joan.
Yeah, so Lila seems like shewas emotionally invested in what was going to

(01:02:45):
happen and how the inner workings ofit were going to go forward, like
it was gonna happen. John wasgoing to die, yes, And that's
definitely something that we get from Marciaand Bobby that Lila had this emotional connection
with Joan as well, and shewas upset because of Joan's death and wanted
John Hill to die kind of becauseof that. She said that there were

(01:03:07):
other meetings between Lila and Ashe twotwo or three times. Marcia said that
they drove to a parking lot ofa nearby hospital to meet ash Marsha said
she always stayed in the car andLila would go speak to Ashe in his
vehicle, or the two would gowalk around a little park together alone.
Marcia said she never heard what wasspoken between Lila and Ashe at these meetings,

(01:03:29):
but that twice she witnessed Ashe handingLilla envelopes of money. She didn't
know how much money it was.However, the morning of John's death,
she said, Ashe dropped by Lilla'shouse and told Lila that his contacts had
found out that John would be carryingfifteen thousand dollars of cash on him when
he returned home from his trip.She said that later the night that John

(01:03:52):
was killed, Ashe came to Lilla'shouse and handed her seven thousand dollars in
cash, saying quote that about coversit. She said that she guessed that
ultimately Lila was paid around twenty fivethousand dollars by Ash for her role in
the murder of doctor John Hill.Well, thanks for the tip, Bobby,
right, So that would mean thatLila got about twenty one five hundred

(01:04:15):
dollars if we include that tip fromBobby from the job where Bobby only got
thirty five hundred dollars, And asfar as Marcia goes, she got nothing
nothing. I mean she wasn't paidby Lila to be a part of the
job. All of that money wentstraight to Bobby, So I mean Marsha
got part of it because Bobby waspaying for the room and board essentially with

(01:04:39):
the money for a while. Butreally she didn't really get anything out of
this murder, which is amazing whyshe participated in it then, Yeah,
I don't get her motivation in anyof this because if there was nothing set
in stone where she was set toprofit, I mean it seems like she
had her own thing going on,and what was her benefit. Was she

(01:04:59):
just a to be moved around andwas just manipulated by these other people in
her life. That's what it seemslike. Yeah, kind of. And
I think she also thought she wasdoing her a solid to both Lila and
Bobby. Yeah, and she washelping the both out, and I think
that's kind of how she got involved. Yeah, And I'm sure you can
pitch it as John as this grievancethat both Lila and Ash have, ye.

(01:05:23):
Yeah. And I think that's importantto point out too, is that
Ash and Lula painted John as avillain. So to Marcia and Bobby,
I think it was easier to goahead and do the job because to them
John was this evil monster who killedJoan Hill. Yeah, and their minds,
he probably needed to die. Yeah. Well, after her confession,
Marsha was taken to the hospital abouta week later, where she was treated

(01:05:45):
for her heroine withdrawal. About aweek later, when she was well again,
she claimed that she was violently illat the time of her confession and
that detectives had denied her medical treatmentuntil she gave a statement. She said
her confession had been made under duressand and was coerced, and in fact,
she claimed to not even remember speakingto detectives or signing anything. Bob

(01:06:10):
Bennett, the assistant district Attorney,tried to offer Marsha immunity if she would
agree to testify, but Marsha refused. She knew the connections that people like
Lilla Paulas and even Ash Robinson had, and she knew that her life and
the life of her son would bein danger if she testified. Yeah,
these are big people with big money, big power. What could they do

(01:06:31):
to you? Exactly, So Marshawas like, I ain't talking. In
April of nineteen seventy four, Bobbywas notified that it was time to return
to Houston to testify against Marcia andLila, receive his sentence and head straight
to prison for at least the nexttwo years of his life. But Bobby
never showed up. The daa's officerevoked his bond, and bulletin's were sent

(01:06:56):
out everywhere that Bobby Van Diver wason the run. I told you not
to do it, Bobby, Iknow you did it. It turns out
that Bobby and Vicky had taken offand settled in Longview in East Texas.
That's actually the same where the guncame from. That's actually, yes,
where the buck the gun came from. I'm not sure. I think it
was just a random coincidence that theywent to long View, Okay, and

(01:07:19):
over in Longview, Bobby started goingby the name Jac Sheridan, but local
police took notice of the new guywho showed up in town and started hanging
out at all of the known criminalhotspots. An officer named James Raymer called
in the registration info on Bobby's carand eventually figured out that this Jc Sheridan

(01:07:41):
was really Bobby Van Diver, wantedin Houston for murder. Raymer approached Bobby
at a restaurant with his gun drawn. Bobby, seeing the cop with the
gun, reached for his own weaponand Raymer shot him dead. Bobby's just
dead. Bobby's dead. And thisactually triggered an investigation as to was Raymer

(01:08:03):
paid by somebody, perhaps Ash Robinson, to kill Bobby Van Diver to silence
him. Yeah, but that thatdidn't go anywhere. It was legitimately just
the situation where this officer realized thiswas a bad guy. Oh, he's
wanted to Houston. I gotta takehim in. And Bobby went for his
gun. Well, yeah, andlet's be clear, he did make a

(01:08:26):
movement that probably drew the officer toshoot him. He went for a gun
that did exist. Yes, so, and there there were multiple witnesses who
identified the fact that Bobby did gofor his weapon and that's why he was
killed. Man, Bobby, youmade a lot of mistakes, but I
know we needed you in the trial. They really did. And now the

(01:08:47):
Ada Bob Bennett is going, whatam I going to do? Now?
He's wondering if the case should justbe dropped. Now the state's star witness
is dead. Lilla Paulis was justdiagnosed with terminal breast cancer, and ash
was nearing eighty years old. Itseems like at this point in the case,
it's getting desperate, like things thingsare aging, the cases kind of

(01:09:11):
like falling apart, like where dowe go now? Absolutely, and a
judge ruled that Bobby's statements, hisfull confession, was it admissible against Marcia
or Lila because it would violate theirsix Amendment rights to confront their accuser.
Bobby was dead, so he can'tbe there to actually testify and be present
for them to confront him. Ohno, don't don't tell me. Don't

(01:09:34):
tell me that this is where we'reheaded like that. There's not going to
be a conclusion to this case thatwe're going to enjoy. Is that that
seems like where we're going. Well, here's another problem. Lila's old charges
for a prostitution and vagrancy, whichwere the pretty much the only facts people
could point to to suggest that Lilahad these connections to the underground criminal element

(01:09:58):
in Houston. Sure all of thatwas also ruled inadmissible. So the state
would have to convince a jury thatthis totally average seeming lady who was now
sick with breast cancer was heavily involvedin criminal activity, and that she had
arranged her murder. That's a hardsell for a jury, it is,
but not to say it's not true, which it seems like it's absolutely true.

(01:10:19):
Yes, And another problem is Marciastill continued to refuse to testify against
Lilla, and who would blame her? Without Bobby, Marcia would be alone
in pointing her finger at Lilla.Paulis a known figurehead of Houston's criminal underworld,
and Ash Robinson who was so wealthyand powerful and above reproach that he

(01:10:42):
still hadn't even been officially questioned aboutJohn's murder, let alone indicted. That's
a crazy thing, like, howhas he not been questioned at this point
with all that information, these tiesdetails. But you know that's what money
will do for you. Yeah,and it'll help you avoid the spotlight at
sure will. But then Marsha's attorneymade a really weird move. He got

(01:11:05):
Marcia to agree to have the judgego ahead and sentence her without having to
go through the business of a trial. He told her he was positive that
he would get her confession thrown outon appeal and that she'd either get a
new trial or the charges would eventuallybe dropped. So Marsha's attorney is fully

(01:11:26):
allowing his client to become a convictedmurderer because he didn't want to bother with
a trial, giving her the hopethat maybe one day in the future things
will go differently. That seems likea sham of logic. Mmmm. And
just like that, Marcia was sentencedto ten years in prison, and still
she refused to testify against Lilla.Paulas so Ada Bennett submitted a new motion

(01:11:53):
that compelled Marcia to take the standat Lilla's trial or be found in contempt
of court. So now Marcia didnot have a choice in risking her life
to testify, and she didn't evenget a deal out of it. Okay,
she's already been sentenced to ten yearsin prison. She didn't get a
deal, and she has to testify. She has nothing to gain or lose

(01:12:15):
at this point. Lila's trial beganin February of nineteen seventy five with a
state subjective to prove that Lila planned, aided, and profited from the murder
of doctor John Hill, and thefirst few days doctor Mitchell, our doctor
from Longview, testified that Marshall stolethe revolver used in the murder from him.
Both Robert and Connie also took thestand to describe what happened the day

(01:12:40):
of John's death, and finally,Marcia, compelled to testify by the court,
told her full story to the world. She talked about first meeting Lila
in the January of nineteen seventy two. She said that Lila asked her about
the murder contract to that summer.She said that she knew Ash Robinson and
knew he was the one offering thecontract on John Hill. She spoke about

(01:13:03):
seeing Ashe several times at Lila's houseand about the secret meetings between Lila and
Ashe, where she believed she witnessedAsh handing Lilla money. She described all
the ways Lila helped plan John's murderand explained that it had been difficult to
figure out when to kill John Hillbecause he was never alone. She said

(01:13:24):
that the slip of paper with theflight schedules written on it found at Lila's
house was made when they were figuringout John's arrangements back to Houston, and
she explained that the phone calls madeto the Stardust in Las Vegas and to
various airlines seen in the telephone recordsfrom Lilla's house were also from planning the
murder well. Lila herself took thestand next, and this actually surprised a

(01:13:46):
lot of people. Lila had notspoken a word other than to say that
she was innocent of the charges.Yeah. Absolutely. Lila talked about her
life, where she presented herself asa typical housewife whose husband had just passed
away. She talked about her daughter, Mary Josephine. Lila acknowledged that Mary

(01:14:08):
Joe had competed in the same circuitsas Joan Robinson Hill, but said that
they didn't actually know each other.Lila said that she knew of Ash Robinson,
but that he was not a friendnor an acquaintance. She said she
had never met him, he'd neverbeen at her home, and she'd never
received money from him. She deniedthat any of the slips of paper found

(01:14:29):
in her home or hers, orthat she'd written any of them. She
said that the slip of paper withAshe's phone number on it was not hers,
and that someone else must have putit in her purse without her knowledge.
Lila is very smart, she is. She admitted that she met Marsha
through a friend of her late husband'sand said that she'd cared for the girl

(01:14:50):
as her own daughter. But shetotally denied knowing that Marsha was a sex
worker and denied knowing or ever meetingBobby van Diver. So Lila completely denied
everything except for being a kind soulwho had taken in the troubled Marsha.
McKitrick. Sure, I mean evenwith terminal cancer, where like she has

(01:15:11):
nothing left to lose at this point. Yeah, but like she's still street
smart of course. Well. Nextup was rebuttal testimony, and the state
called two surprise witnesses that really shookthings up. The first was Joan Jaworski
Worrel. She was the daughter afeigned Watergate prosecutor Leon Jaworski, so her

(01:15:31):
words already rang with a certain amountof authority just because of who she was.
I remember this was just a fewyears after Watergate, so everybody in
that room would have known who shewas when she took this name. She
would have been easily identified and hasa track record. Yes, it turns
out that Jonie had been lifelong bestfriends with Joan Robinson Hill. The two

(01:15:55):
had met his children, ridden horsestogether, and Jonie had even been Jones's
maid of honor at her wedding toJohn. Janie had been crushed by Joane's
death, but had never personally believedthat John had murdered her friend. Jonie
testified that she'd seen Lila and Ashtogether on three occasions, two times at

(01:16:15):
Chatsworth Farm in nineteen sixty five andin nineteen sixty nine, and the third
in New Orleans where they had alleaten together at a restaurant. So that
this is harsh condemnation for Lila Paulusin the eyes of the a jury.
Like you said, somebody who didn'teven think that John had murdered Joan in
the first place, and now sheis like, well, I have seen
them in multiple locations that fit intothis storyline. The next surprise witness was

(01:16:44):
Mary Josephine, Lila's own daughter.We've talked about her several times so far,
but we have not heard from her. The DA's office had spent considerable
time tracking her down to see whatshe knew about her mother's illegal activities.
Mary Joe had initially refused to testify, claiming that she was terrified of her
mother, but Eventually she agreed whenshe realized that she could help put her

(01:17:09):
mother away for the rest of herlife. I mean that makes sense.
Lila does sound terrifying. M we'llget this on the stand. Mary Joe
said that she indeed had known Annewas good friends with Joan Robinson. What
yes, How She said that theyfirst met in nineteen sixty three or nineteen

(01:17:30):
sixty four through the horse trainer Dianesaid, aghast if remember Diane, she
was one of the house guests thatlast week where Joan died. Yeah,
in episode one. She was goingto take over Chatsworth Farms and be the
new horse trainer and run things andmake it all flow better. That's right.
And she was actually the first onewho came up with this whole poisoned
pastry hypothesis that had then taken overthe story of this entire situation, which

(01:17:58):
may or may not still be true. Who knows. Yeah, she said
that Joan herself introduced her and hermother, Lila to Ash. Over the
years, Mary Joe said that sheand her mother visited the Hill House multiple
times, and that Ashe was oftenthere as well. She said, her
mother and Ashe grew close as friendsand that they often even sat in Ashe's

(01:18:20):
box during Houston's annual Pinoak Charity horseshow. She said that on Christmas of
nineteen seventy, she was at herparents' house and overheard her mother say to
her father that Diane set Agast hadcalled and said that Ashe Robinson was interested
in putting a hit out on JohnHill. Okay, do tell go on.

(01:18:45):
She said her father had become upsetand told her mother not to get
involved. So these are some verydamning statements made by the defendant's own daughter.
And she's even kind of leveling stuffat Diane set Agast too. Yeah,
and we've heard about the rumors ofthis hit circling in the underground,
Yes, but now we're hearing aboutthis hit circling, you know, levels

(01:19:08):
of communication that are happening between veryrich and powerful people of clout. Yes,
that's so weird to me, it'scrazy. So at first, that's
all that Mary Joe has to say. She leaves the stand. The defense
then called its own surprise witness.Who do you think it is? Well,
I don't know who else it wouldbe besides Diane, said a guest.

(01:19:30):
It was. In fact, Dianesaid a guest. She went on
to try to dismantle what Janie Jaworskiand Mary Joe said about Lila. She
said that she had never seen JoanJaworski at Chatsworth Farm except after Joane's death.
She said she'd only seen Lila thereonce, and that was because she
had invited her there for a drink. She said that Ash and Lila only

(01:19:53):
knew each other in passing and werenot friends. She said she'd never seen
Lila at the hill House or Ashat Lilla's house. She denied calling Lila
and telling her that Ashe was lookingfor a murder contract, as Mary Joe
had stated on the stand. Shesaid that she had three separate phone numbers
for Ash, and that she mighthave been the person to have written Ashe's

(01:20:15):
number down and slipped it into Lila'spurse, although she had no recollection of
doing so. H boy, soDiane's giving Lila a little bit of a
reprieve here. She then tried totarnish Mary Joe's testimony by accusing Mary Joe
of being a sex worker. Shesaid that Mary Joe was so troubled that

(01:20:35):
her mother had been forced to sendher for treatment at a psychiatric hospital.
So Diane is taking down Mary Joe. Yeah, yeah, destroying the credibility
of that testimony. So then MaryJoe was called back to the stand to
address the things that Diane said inher testimony. It's really it, he

(01:20:57):
said, she said, back andforth. Dramatacular. Really it really is.
But this is when we get thenitty gritty that Mary is able to
testify in this on the stand andshe's able to sail of these things because
Diane opened it up by making allof these accusations on the stand. Now
Mary is able to tell her fullstory. Let's hear a girl. Mary

(01:21:21):
explained that yes, she had indeedbeen admitted for three weeks at a psychiatric
hospital when she was seventeen for quoteemotional disturbance. She explained that she had
wanted to marry an older man namedLarry Wood, but her mother had refused
and had accused Mary of being onheroin. She said Lila told her that

(01:21:43):
if she went to the hospital andwas tested and can prove that she was
not on drugs, she would allowthe marriage. But when Mary Joe showed
up to the hospital, she foundout it was just a ruse. Her
mother was having her committed. Prosecutorswere able to enter the medical records from
the hospital stay that described Mary ashaving no sign of psychiatric illness and that

(01:22:05):
one doctor noted quote mother seems tobe the major problem. Another nurse had
even noted that Lila had come tovisit Mary Joe with a gun in her
purse that she would wave around,and Mary Joe's explained that personally, she
rarely ever saw her mother without aloaded gun. Finally, Prosecutor Bennett asked

(01:22:27):
Mary if she had ever engaged insexual activities for money or other favors,
as Diane had accused her of Onthe stand. She said yes, because
her mother had forced her into itas a child. Oh okay, all
right, big double Z snap rightthere. She said that it began when
she was about four years old witha man in his sixties. She said

(01:22:53):
that the man gave her mother moneyafterward. She said the man returned several
times a week, every week untilshe was about eleven years old. By
the time she was sixteen, Marysaid that Lila was essentially her pimp.
She would find her clients and sether fees. She said that she and
Lila traveled down to Galveston quite frequentlyto collect money from the brothels they owned.

(01:23:16):
She said that she knew that theywere brothels because Lila had made her
work out of one for a summer. Lila is a monster. Yes.
She said that she was able toescape the psychiatric hospital and had eloped with
Larry Wood, the man that shewas still married to today. So things
are good for her Mary Joe,Well, we will say that, okay

(01:23:38):
good. I'm glad that she's foundher way out of this horrible situation.
But she did go on to saythat one night their apartment got shot up
and she believed Lila was behind theattack to either kill them or just threaten
them. She said her and herhusband were terrified and they left Houston for
good and had been in hiding fromher mother ever since. How scary is

(01:24:00):
that that your own mother might bebehind a potential hit attempt on you?
Yeah, terrifying. But the thingis Mary Joe's statements on the stand did
exactly what she needed them to do, and in the end, the jury
only took five hours before reaching averdict of guilty. Lila Paulus was sentenced
to thirty five years in prison.For helping to plan the murder of John

(01:24:25):
Hill. As far as Ash Robinsongoes, he was never charged with anything
to do with John Hill's death.If Lila did know Ash, she never
admitted it, and without her testimony, no one ever bothered to try to
indicte Ash. There was some generalpoking around for evidence, and his bank
records were subpoenaed to see if therewere any mysterious large withdrawals that corresponded with

(01:24:50):
these payments. Marsha said he wasmaking to Lila, but no one could
find any unusual financial activity. Yeah, but other ways to get around that,
with cash transactions and loose liquid assetsthat he could make available to have
something like this be done. Yeah, versure, with no hope of criminal

(01:25:13):
charges. In nineteen seventy six,Connie as Robert's guardian and Myra Hill,
John's mother, filed a civil suitagainst Ash for seven point six million dollars,
alleging that ashe arranged John's death.Lila declined to testify against Ash,
but Marsha did, stating once moreunder oath, that Ash Robinson put the

(01:25:34):
contract out on John. She eventook and passed a polygraph test, But
ashe also took him past the polygraphtest regarding John's death, one that he
paid for himself at a light detectorfirm instead of allowing himself to be questioned
by DA or law enforcement of course, and he waived that around, saying

(01:25:56):
that it was proof that he wasuninvolved. How nice to have enough money
to hire or your own firm todo your polygraph for you. Yeah.
And in the end, ashe wasacquitted even on the civil charges, yankes.
Yeah, what a turn this guytook, because like I was on
Ashe's side at the end of episodeone, I know, and he went

(01:26:17):
from being like the unsung hero thatwas championing his daughter's mysterious death to the
villain and this larger than life figure. Strange how it happens. Well.
The journalist Thomas Thompson had been closelyfollowing this case and published his book Blood
and Money in nineteen seventy six.He said that before publishing, he gave

(01:26:42):
Ash a copy of the book andthat ashe approved it. However, upon
it being published, ashe sued himand his publisher for twenty million dollars for
libel. It sounds like he didn'tread it, maybe or he went ahead
and had it published because he toperhaps get the twenty million dollars I don't
know, but the suit was laterdismissed, and Kurth also sued Thompson and

(01:27:09):
the publisher for three million dollars overher characterization in the book, but her
suit was also thrown out. Rightaround the same time as Blood and Money
came out, and published her ownbook called Prescription Murder. In it,
Anne expanded upon her version of theevents and detailed John's alleged abuse and his

(01:27:30):
attempts to kill her. She alsomade a very bold, very strange accusation
in this book. She claimed thatshe believed John faked his own murder by
somehow having someone else killed in hisplace, and then he moved to Mexico
where he went on to live afull, rich life. I'm sorry,

(01:27:50):
what Yeah, so he's just outthere in Mexico doing plastic surgery and the
living on a beach. Yeah,that's what Anne claimed. What a claim.
Well. Anne's book was turned intoa made for TV movie called Murder
in Texas, which came out innineteen eighty one, but Blood and Money

(01:28:11):
wasn't made into the TV movie.It was her version. Yes, you
are correct, it's just very strangeto believe. Oh, Wes we Wess
the mark. We picked the wrongbook to make the movie on. Yeah,
you're right, and it pulled downsome huge stars. Joan was played
by Fara Fawcett. Wow. Johnwas played by Sam Elliott. Sam Elliott.

(01:28:34):
Yes, Ash was played by AndyGriffith. Okay, yeah, he
was older at that time. Thatmakes sense. He was. Yes,
he was older, and I thinkthis was like a more, very much
more serious sort of roll over himand Anne was played by Catherine Ross.
Those are big names, Yes,they really are. The movie follows Anne's

(01:28:57):
book, so it ends with theinsinuation that John faked his murder in was
secretly alive and well. And bythe way, doctor Yehemchek, who knew
John very well as we know,he was involved all during Jones's murder investigation,
who performed John's autopsy as well,he said that this is ridiculous.
The corpse that he autopsied was absolutelyJohn Hill. He knew him very very

(01:29:23):
well and was very familiar with himand knew that that was indeed John Hill.
It's really sad because there was apotential there to make a really rad
true crime movie. That had alot of the facts and truth, and
they jumped the shark and went forthe selation with Anne's version. Yeah.
In the late seventies, ashe tiredof Houston and the awful memories of his

(01:29:44):
lost daughter and grandson, he andRay moved to Sarasota, Florida, where
ashe died in nineteen eighty five atthe age of eighty seven. Ray died
just two years later. Robert wasraised by Connie. Eventually he moved to
the East Coast and became, ofall things, a prosecutor. Good for

(01:30:05):
him, Yeah, that's cool.He has led a very quiet life and
has generally refused to speak publicly aboutthe case, but he has been quoted
as saying that he too, rodehorses competitively, just like his mother,
and that was something that he wasvery proud of. It's not clear what,
if any kind of relationship Robert everhad with his grandparents, but it

(01:30:29):
was reported that in the eighties therewas some kind of reconciliation before the deaths
of Ash and Ray. Well,that's weird, but it's very hard to
sort of understand what could have possiblyhappened, because I think most people understand
that ashe probably had something to dowith that's pretty clear he did. Yeah,

(01:30:50):
and I believe that would be veryhard for Robert to forgive, especially
for Robert having been an eyewitness orear witness to the murder. Very upsetting
to believe that your grandfather was perhapsthe one behind that. Okay, if
Ash did plot all this out,and he was trying to kill someone who

(01:31:13):
did his daughter wrong and wanted toget Robert back into the custody of the
family, why would you put Robertin that situation exactly? That shows a
lack of empathy. That's a powermove. That's somebody who has money and
is mad and angry and doesn't haveRobert's best interest in that moment. Yeah.
Oh what a story, I know. But as far as the other

(01:31:36):
characters in the case, we havea few other people. I want to
just briefly mention. Lila died frombreast cancer at Gatesville Prison in nineteen eighty
six. She never once spoke illof Ash Robinson. I don't think she
ever admitted to knowing Ash or beinginvolved in the murderers at all. She
always acclaimed her innocence. She wasstreet smart man. Marcia did appeal her

(01:32:01):
sentence, but it was upheld,so the plan her lawyer got her degree
to about her being able to gether charges thrown out later on that did
not work out. She served fiveyears of the ten years sentence and was
released. She died in twenty tenat the age of sixty. Anne moved

(01:32:23):
to Austin with her three boys andshe opened up a clothing shop. She
passed away at the age of fiftynine from a sudden aneurism in nineteen ninety.
As far as Joan is concerned,her cause of death has never been
identified. In nineteen eighty, RacehorseHaynes, one of John's attorneys, said
that he discussed the matter with doctorsand he was now convinced that she died

(01:32:46):
of toxic shop syndrome from tampa onusage. What and there was some evidence
that Joan was on her period aroundthe time of her death, But again
that's probably just another possibility to addto the list. We probably will never
know why Joane died. But stilllike toxic shock syndrome with tampon usage,

(01:33:14):
that doesn't fit into John's behavior,whether you know, like not actually getting
her care exactly the murder biomission,you know, I mean like there's something
else going on there that we're neverIt doesn't seem like we're going to have
the answers for Yeah, what atwisted, twisted tale that you have woven
for us. But as twisted asit is, I feel like we have

(01:33:35):
all of the roadmap of everything that'shappened here and all the important figures and
how they're interconnected. Somebody's got tobring this to Hollywood and make it or
like do a better documentary or abetter representation of it, because it seems
like a Guy Ritchie film, youknow, where there's all these different factions
and inner players and rich people thathave power and the dumb crowminals that are

(01:34:00):
trying to do things. Yeah,and I feel like it has to be
a two parter because we really arelooking at two separate cases. We first
have to look at Joan and whathappened to her for four, really settling
in on what happened to John,and that's why we had to do a
two parter. I really hope thatyou all enjoyed it. It's such a
fascinating case. It's so complex andinteresting. If you have not read Blood

(01:34:25):
and Money by Thomas Thompson, incrediblebook and a real classic, so I
would highly recommend you check that out. And this is just such an interesting,
crazy case. Yeah, and Ithink that Joan and Robert were definitely
the protagonist in our part one andpart two. Yeah, And I really
want to recognize like how much workyou did on trying to cover both of

(01:34:48):
those those people and their story inthese two parters, because it's it's very
important. Like obviously true crime,we love the salacious, like goofiness of
of all the weird inner workings ofhow crimes happen. But man, my
heart goes out to both of thosepeople, and it's so sad that we're
not gonna ever know how Joan diedor the details of her murder, and

(01:35:13):
obviously everything that happened to Robert.I know, Robert's story is just so
sad, And I can't believe hebecame a prosecutor like good for I don't
know what kind of law he washe was practicing or anything, but I
mean, just obviously an incredible kidfor going through what he did and being
able to kind of rise above andlead his life. And apparently, you

(01:35:33):
know, is a really great guyas far as we've known what a fascinating
story, so many ins and outs. Go read the book again. I
have an Audible account. We're notsponsored by Audible, but I kind of
want to go and see if Ican use some of my credits to read
that book, because it sounds amazing. I mean, I have it,
you can just read. Well,I'll steal it from you. But wow.

(01:35:56):
Okay, well, we've reached theend of this two parter and I
feel I have closure on the storyitself. We don't have an ending to
the story, but we know everythingnow. So we're gonna shut the door
on the story and we're gonna moveon to something else. What do you
think good news? I would lovesome pretty good no all around? Now,
Well, I hope you like waterBurger because I'm in Texan. Of

(01:36:17):
course I like water burger. Allright, Well we got some of that
after this. All right, allright, everybody, welcome back to all

(01:36:43):
Crime No Kennel. This is thegood News sexhelln you probably just heard a
commercial, but let me tell youabout a news story that comes to us
from WFAA dot com. This iswfa ABC Channel eight News and the articles
that I'm using for good news willbe in the show notes and this article
was written by Shauna m. Readingwell as most Texans from Austin to the

(01:37:06):
Panhandle. No Over a week ago, we had some major weather events that
came through the majority of the statethat laid down a series of tornadoes that
stretched up into Kansas and down intoAustin. It was a huge wall of
storms, and of course there wasa lot of damage that came along with

(01:37:26):
those storms. Luckily, even withover twenty confirmed tornadoes touching down, there
were only ten injuries and sadly onedeath. But considering how extensive the storms
were and the strength of those stormsthe extent of the damage, those numbers
are really low and we're really luckythat only one person died through all of

(01:37:47):
that. Even so, during darktimes, there's always some light to be
had, and many people nationwide begansharing a video that was captured in the
town of Elgin, about four minutesnortheast of Austin. Storm chaser Brian Mfinger
was videoing a twister along Highway twentynine that he was chasing. He was

(01:38:09):
kind of following this tornado when outof nowhere, a red truck crosses into
the funnel of said tornado. Likethis truck just drives into just haphazardly drives
into a tornado. Yep. It'sthe most wild thing I've seen. I
mean, I think certainly if Ithink, if you live in Texas,

(01:38:30):
you've seen this video. But Ibelieve that this video has made it sort
of national Oh yeah, wide right, like everybody's talking about this job.
Definitely, I mean, it's it'sgone viral for sure. Yeah. Quickly,
the tornado snatched this red truck upand tossed it into the air,
into the air, and then ontoits side, moved it around, spun
it, and then only to eventuallypick the truck back up and put it

(01:38:54):
onto its four wheels like nothing everhappened. Yep. And then the truck
just coldly drives away like nothing happened, almost nonchalantly. Yeah, you know,
the driver of this red Chevy truckjust put the car into gear and
slowly just drives away. Tornado's stillgoing on, oh yeah, And everybody
was like, who is this personin this truck who has just the wherewithal

(01:39:17):
to just be so calm to justdrive away like nothing just happened. After
and you just got whisked up ina tornado. Like Dorothy. Yeah,
and clearly even for Brian, someonewho chases tornadoes for a living, he
was shocked by the behavior of thistruck, and so he posted the video
to his social media, where itwould ultimately go viral, even causing a

(01:39:40):
storm of jokes and memes to goalong with it, like you know,
this is tornadoes happened across the UnitedStates, but this is how Texans deal
would exactly, We're fun with it. We're just going to drive away in
our enormous four d F one fiftiesor whatever or whatever it was. Yeah,
Well, the mysterious driver of thetruck was a big part of this

(01:40:00):
viral video sensation, like who isthis driver? Who are they? Everyone
wants to know? Is this batman? How are they so cool and collected?
Turns out they were quickly identified assixteen year old Riley Leon and this
was done when his brother Jesus Areyosaw the video on Facebook that was posted
by the storm chaser and immediately recognizedthe family truck. This is a truck

(01:40:25):
that was handed down from their fatherto Riley, and he had taken over
use of the car, so hewas like, I know that car.
That's my dad's car. That's mybrother, and immediately he was very shocked,
saying, that's my little brother andthat car. You know, I'm
really scared. I hope he's okay. But turns out Riley was fine.

(01:40:45):
It was just a big scare.He got some cuts and there was some
damage to the truck. And hetold w FA News quote, when I
landed on my wheels, my handslanded on my lap, I saw everything.
I was like, probably nothing happened. I wasn't scared that much,
but how this is the scariest thingthere would ever happen. It really is.

(01:41:09):
So he lands and his hands areon his lap and he said he
wasn't scared too much, but itwas a shocking moment for me. I'm
sure it was. But you're downplayingat my man. Yeah, right.
The truck didn't fare as well asRiley did, though, and the truck
took a lot of damage. Andthis was a truck that he had been
fixing up from his dad, soit was really hard for him and sad.

(01:41:32):
Now. Additionally, besides the damageto the truck and Riley being a
super brave and nonchalant soul, there'sanother addition to the story. That's quite
interesting. And that's the fact thathe was actually returning home from his interview
at a water Burger to get ajob. Oh yeah. And originally when
this story came out, people weresaying, oh, he was on his

(01:41:55):
way to an interview and he drovethrough a tornado to get to the inter
coming back home. He was comingback home after the interview. So I
want to make that clear because alot of people have misreported that. But
I am happy to inform you thatRiley did in fact get the job.
And how could you not give hima job after all this, like his

(01:42:15):
cool, calm and collected demeanor.I mean, make him a manager.
If you can deal with driving througha tornado, then you can deal with
the toppings on your burger. Yeah, all the different combinations that water Burger
has where you can customize your burgercool under pressure. Yeah, there's nothing
he can't handle. No, he'sgot toppings on lockdown. Yeah. And

(01:42:38):
I think we did another story aboutwater Burger with the goose or the geese
that it was in the drive through. So this is like our second good
news that has water Burger like deeplyentrenched into it. I'm not trying to
make water Burger, the Good Newsaffiliate for Fast Food for the show,
the should sponsor the show. Yeah, I would take it. But anyways,
after the story broke and Riley's namegot out in the news, he

(01:43:00):
kind of became famous at school andeverybody at school started calling him by the
name Tornado Boy. Yeah. Hegave this like really you know, quiet,
subdued interview with the News. It'sreally funny because like he sounds like
nothing was really a big deal.Yeah, he's just very and calm about

(01:43:21):
everything. I don't I still don'tget how you can be that calm about
driving through a tornado. But thegood news, this is the good news.
He got the job, he becamefamous, he was Tornado Boy.
But then the red Chevy truck thathe was driving it was it was total
and it was purchased from a fortWorth dealership that we know from commercials on
the news as Bruce Lowry Chevrolet.And when they got wind of this story,

(01:43:45):
they decided they were going to dosomething special for the Brave Team,
and they agreed to buy him abrand new Chevrolet Silverado. Oh dang,
So he's got a new job andhe's got a new truck. And he's
tornado bore. Wow, I'm sohappy for him. I was so worried
about that person in that car thefirst time I saw that video, because
I remember thinking, that's just terrifying, absolutely terrifying. Your mind would be

(01:44:11):
so and just watching that person calmlyjust drive, just keep driving down the
highway like nothing just happened. Itwas just it's such a crazy video.
And to know that it was justlike this kid coming home from his water
burger job, just calm as canbe. Just such a lovely, funny
story. And of course very happythat he wasn't un injured and then every

(01:44:35):
everything was okay. Yeah, andI feel happy sharing this article and the
good news notes and everyone should gosee it if you haven't seen it,
because it's yes, it's bizarre,this whole situation goes down well. Congrats
to Riley for sure. Yeah,burgers and tornadoes all right, friends,

(01:45:00):
thank you for coming back to theAfter Show. You can find us on
Twitter at ACNC podcast and on Instagramat All Crime, No Cattle. And
you can find our Facebook group calledACNC Posse Discussion Group. And as always,
if you want to check out morefrom All Crime, No Cattle and
if you get a little extra fix, you can join our Patreon at patreon
dot com slash All Crime, NoCattle. We have extra episodes there.

(01:45:21):
You can listen without commercials. There'smerch, swag, stickers, shoutouts,
and that is where we need tosupport some of the greatest people that support
us. We need to give someshout outs and that's what we're going to
do right now with some Texas Rangersat the highest tier. Thank you,
Angel Moody, Don Maloney, GailParker, Jamie Gray, Jennifer and Magnolia,

(01:45:45):
Jessica Layfield, Lea Dhardy, LisaLayton, Mickey Sweet, Sarah Nicholson,
and Ashley Parker. You guys rock. Thank you so much. You're
our heart and soul and I loveyou so much. Like a water Burger
after a tornado, now I wantchicken tenders from water bright gravy on the
tenders. That's what it is.Yeah, Well, until next time,

(01:46:06):
it's been fun. We've had agood time, We've learned some things.
You have questions. Maybe we'll neverhave answers, who knows. But until
next time, I always remember thatcrime is bigger in Texas. Y'all.
Audios goodbye byebye

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