Ep 96: The Disappearance of the Murray-O'Hair Family, Part I

Episode Transcript
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(00:38):
Hello, everybody, Welcome back toanother episode of All Crime, No Cattle.
It's been a while, and there'sseveral reasons for that. For one,
let's address where we are right now. We're in the closet of our
new home that we are renting,and things have been pretty crazy for a
while, so we had a bigmove. We're living in a new place.

(00:59):
I am working at a new jobhere in Central Texas, and I
had some really serious medical issues.But we are back and we are covering
an episode that I am very interestedto learn more about. It's a very
important episode. Aaron's been kind oftalking about it and teasing the topic for
a while, and we're ready todive into it. Are you ready,
Aaron? I am ready? Allright. Yeah. I thought we would

(01:22):
come back with a bang, witha fascinating story about a polarizing figure,
Madeline Murray O'Hare. From the nineteensixties and into the nineteen nineties, Madeline
Murray O'Hare was the voice and faceof atheism in the United States. She
was an activist for the separation ofchurch and state and is credited as the
first person to organize atheists as acommunity and a political force in the country

(01:49):
to Middle America. She was brash, loud, undiplomatic, condescending, vulgar,
and very very controversial. She livedher life thumbing her note in the
face of traditional society, law enforcement, and even government agencies. In fact,
in nineteen sixty four, Life magazinefirst labeled her the most hated woman

(02:10):
in America, a description that wouldfollow her her entire life, and one
that she repeated with some amount ofpride. Yeah, she sounds like a
trendsetter to say the least. Absolutely. Madeline's closest partners in her business dealings,
legal battles, and her life wereher youngest son, John Garth Murray
and her granddaughter Robin Murray. Whenthe three went missing in September of nineteen

(02:32):
ninety five under suspicious circumstances, locallaw enforcement, family, even friends were
slow to respond. If it wasn'tfor the work of a rag tag assortment
of people, some of whom Madelinefought with in life, journalists and agents
from the FBI and IRS, wemight never have known what happened to the

(02:53):
Murray O'Hare family. Now we havea lot to cover. This story is
long and it is fascinating, Sothis will be a two parter, with
the next episode coming out next week. I for one think the story warrants
a two parter because there's so muchmaterial to get through, and so much
interesting material to get through, aninteresting life and a very fascinating case.

(03:14):
Yeah. I mean, she trulywas a historical figure. Yeah, and
I think an important one, whetheryou hated her or you absolutely loved her.
But before we get into the episode, let's first acknowledge our sources.
Now. As I teased, journalistsplay a huge role in this story,
whether it was writing about the familybefore their disappearance, oftentimes in sort of

(03:35):
expose as about the family, orreporting on their case after the disappearance.
Just a few of the biggest namesare Lawrence Wright and Michael Hall from Texas
Monthly, Robert Bryce from the AustinChronicle, along with David Van Biema from
Time Magazine, and Katie Fairbank ofthe La Times. But by far the
most groundbreaking work came from John McCormickfrom the San Antonio Express News, and

(04:00):
we will be talking a lot moreabout him in part two next week.
There's also an excellent book by journalistTed DraCos called Ungodly, a great read
if you want a deeper understanding ofthis case. And by the way,
all the links to those really prominentarticles and other sources will be in the
episode notes. And finally, Ijust want to mention that there is a

(04:20):
Forensic Files episode about this case.We always like talking about those, and
it was published way back in twothousand and two and it is called Without
a Prayer, Wow, the yearI graduated. Forensic Files has been around
a long time, y'all. Yeah, it has well. With no further
ado, let's get into it.Madeleine Murray O'Hare was born Madeleine Elizabeth Mays

(04:57):
on April thirteenth, nineteen nineteen,in Pittsburgh, although the family moved to
Ohio soon after, which is whereMadeleine grew up. Her family was Presbyterian
and she was baptized at the ageof four, but according to Madelene,
and she told the story often,she rescinded her religion when she first sat
down and read the Bible covered acover at the age of twelve or thirteen.

(05:19):
She later said, quote, Icame away stunned with the hatred,
the brutality, the sadomasochism, thecruelty, the killing, the ugliness,
She said she became an atheist thenand there. In October nineteen forty one,
when she was twenty two, shemarried a man named John Henry Roths,
but the marriage was ill fated.Only two months later was the bombing

(05:41):
of Pearl Harbor, which of coursefinally drew the United States into World War
Two. Both Madeleine and John volunteeredfor service. He joined the Marines,
while Madeleine enlisted in the Women's ArmyCorps, and they both got shipped out
to different countries. Madeleine ended upbecoming an officer, a lieutenant and served
as a cryptographer in Africa in Europeat least this is what she claimed.

(06:04):
Well, that's really interesting that theyboth ended up serving and in different places
and a cryptographer. That's really cool. Yeah, there are bits and pieces
of Madeline's life that are perhaps upfor debate. There are people, some
reporters, who have challenged some ofher stories about her life, and one

(06:25):
of them is her service. Sothere is a little bit of mystery,
I guess you could say about whatshe did when she was in the service.
Is it one of those things whereonce someone becomes such a huge icon
or a very important person in historythat people tend to like fudge the lines
of truth and fact and some ofthe spots of their life a little bit.
Yeah, and that's a lot ofthat is coming from Madeline herself.

(06:46):
Oh okay, all right. Innineteen forty five, while stationed in Italy,
she met a B twenty four fighterpilot named Captain William J. Murray.
Although both were married, they hadan affair and Madeline became pre She
wanted to marry Captain Murray, butthere was a problem. He was a
very devout Roman Catholic whose religion precludeddivorce apparently not adultery. Though, yeah,

(07:11):
that's kind of interesting, like onceand is okay, but the other's
nine, I guess. So Madelineleft the service and returned to Ohio,
where she divorced her husband and thentook Captain Murray's name, legally changing her
name to Madeline Murray. Her sonwas born May twenty fifth, nineteen forty
six, and she gave him hisfather's name, William Joseph Murray. So

(07:33):
they're not married, he's still withsomeone. They've had an affair, they
now have a child, and she'salready changed her legal name to his name.
Yeah, so it suggested that shetook Captain Murray's name and named the
child after him to both maybe embarrasshim and to draw sympathy, because she
was later able to successfully sue himfor child's support, even though he denied

(07:56):
being William's father. Madeline got herbachelor's degree in history from Ashlen University in
Ohio, graduating second in her class. Soon after, her and her family
moved to Houston, and she beganworking full time as a probation officer while
going to law school. She graduatedfrom the South Texas College of Law in
nineteen fifty two. After graduating,she took the bar exam once and it

(08:20):
seems like she failed and she nevertried again. So she did have a
law degree, and as we'll see, she will become very involved in the
law throughout her life, but shewas never a practicing lawyer. Yeah,
but it's interesting that her life hasalready taken her down the legal path and
she has probably already a very formativelegal background, and that's just another arrow

(08:41):
that she's going to have in herquiver that she can use later. Yes,
very much so. So her entirecareer basically is going to be invested
in the law. Now, shewould later claim to have other degrees,
but there aren't any official records ofany of them. So, to put
it nicely again, these are thesuggestions that Madaline did the truth a little
bit from time to time. Now. After her schooling, she and William

(09:05):
moved to Baltimore. Madeleine began datinga man named Michael. She became pregnant,
and on November sixteenth, nineteen fiftyfour, she gave birth to her
second son, who she named JohnGarth Murray. Soon after, Madeleine and
Michael broke up, and although shespoke of him fondly, he wasn't a
part of their lives and not muchis known about him. And it was

(09:26):
finally in nineteen sixty when Madeline foundthe cause that would become her lifelong passion
and would frame her in her children'sentire lives. You see, Madeleine went
with her oldest son, William,who was fourteen at the time, to
register him for school. This wasat Woodbourne Junior High a part of the
Baltimore Public school system. As Madelinewalked down the halls, she noticed that

(09:48):
the students were reciting the Lord's Prayer. This obviously angered Madeleine, who didn't
approve of her son being forced intoparticipating in the practices of Christian or any
other religion for that matter. Yeah, in a public school specifically, Yes,
So she complained to the school boardand requested that William be excused from

(10:09):
participating. She simply wanted him tobe able to leave the room. Yeah,
it sounds fair enough, right,Well, the school board denied her
request, so Madeleine pulled William fromschool and contacted the press. She wrote
to the Baltimore Sun, declaring herselfa proud atheist and saying quote, I
have withdrawn my fourteen year old sonfrom Woodbourne Junior High School in an act

(10:33):
of civil disobedience. Soon the storybecame a media sensation, and Madeline was
all over the news talking about thisgreat injustice. She filed a lawsuit against
the Baltimore Public School System, withWilliam listed as the plaintiff in the case.
The case charge that school sponsored prayerwas a violation of the First and

(10:54):
fourteenth Amendments of the Constitution. Now, Madeline was an incredibly into, telligent,
very outspoken woman, and she commandedmedia attention right from the start.
This was the sixties, and Madeleineis a single woman with two children born
out of wedlock. She was anatheist, actively trying to get prayer removed

(11:15):
from schools. So you can seewhy she was hated and even feared,
especially during these early years. Yeah, and in that decade in particular,
activism is at all time high,you know. Yeah, absolutely, And
it's the perfect storm of everything elsethat's going on in the sixties for someone
like her to step up and say, hey, what about atheism and they

(11:35):
need a champion and someone to carrythe mic for them. Yeah. Absolutely.
This is a time where things arevery tumultuous. There's a lot of
social change going on, and soshe was sort of thrust in the middle
of all of that, or youcould say she thrust herself into the middle
of all that. Yeah, itseems like she was our own lightning rod
a little bit. Yeah, Iwould agree with that. So it's probably
not surprising that the family began receivinga lot of backlash. Their cars got

(12:00):
egged, people through rocks through theirwindows and destroyed their garden. They were
sent vicious letters and serious death threats. Madeline even claimed that John Garth's kitten
was strangled. Okay, so alreadythings are escalating quite a bit. Yes,
right from the start, she andher family are a target of a
lot of vicious threats and activity.But Madeline's most fervent critics will point out

(12:24):
that her crusade got her a lotof attention and it made her a lot
of money, because, of course, you can be a religious person and
realize that maybe there's something wrong withschool sponsored mandatory religious activities. Yeah,
it's not that hard of a conceptto wrap your mind around. And I
think it's a fair point that she'smaking. Yeah, so people from all

(12:46):
over began sending Madeline money to helpfund her legal battle, like in the
form of donations. Yes, fromthe start, people were sending her mail
and letters with a few books enclosed, for example, or a check for
a certain amount of money, justto help fund what she was doing.
But she doesn't have like a foundationor anything set up at this point.
Well that's the thing. The publicityand the money gave Madeline an idea,

(13:09):
and in nineteen sixty three she foundedthe organization American Atheists, the first atheist
organization in the US. The groupclaimed to quote defend the civil rights of
nonbelievers, work for the separation ofchurch and state and address issues of First
Amendment public policy. She immediately beganproducing her own magazine as well, called

(13:33):
The American Atheist Magazine. It featuredcollections of writings and articles about activism and
atheism, along with pleas for moneyto help support the organization's goals. Both
her sons, William and John Garthwere involved from the beginning, with William
even helping to type, set andprint the magazine for a distribution, and

(13:54):
quickly lots of donations to the causebegan pouring in. The case against the
Baltimore Board of Education went to courtand the judge ended up siding with the
Board of Education. Really yes,but Madeline appealed the case to the Maryland
Court of Appeals, but once againthat court also sided with the school board,
so she appealed all the way tothe United States Supreme Court. William's

(14:18):
case was consolidated with another case,Abington School District versus Shemp out of Philadelphia.
It was presented before the Supreme Courtin nineteen sixty three, where both
of these cases kind of similar andlike the same thing that they were kind
of filing against. Yes, theMurray case was specifically about prayer in schools,
and the Shemp case was specifically aboutmandatory Bible readings in schools. So

(14:41):
both of those were consolidated together andpresented before the Supreme Court. Gotcha.
In an eight to one vote,the Court ruled that mandatory Bible reading and
US public schools was unconstitutional. Sothis was a landmark decision that changed American
society and the public school system acrossthe nation. And this was a time

(15:03):
when prayer in school, Bible readings, and all sorts of Christian religious activities
were not only tolerated, but theywere required in up to eighty percent of
public schools across the nation. Thisruling triggered a massive cultural shift. Oh
yeah, I'm sure they've got ajust and switch gears away from everything they've

(15:24):
been doing previously. Yes, andthis is every school is having to make
these adjustments. Yeah, what arewe going to fill our time with that
used to be Bible reading time?We have to change our curriculums and study
different things. Yeah, yeah,pretty much. Now we are all aware
of the recent rulings with the SupremeCourt, especially with the overturning of Roe

(15:46):
v. Wade, But There wasanother recent ruling just last month where the
Supreme Court ruled in a case that'svery similar to Madeleine's case. They ruled
in favor of a high school footballcoach leading public prayers with students after games.
Some people have suggested that this willopen the door to further support of

(16:07):
school sponsored religious activities in the future. Yeah, it's been all over the
news and radio, even on likesports talk radio, which normally wouldn't file
in and make an opinion on religion, you know, in schools and stuff.
But it's kind of one of thosethings of where are we headed,
what's the trajectory of the new legalstandard where it comes to religion in school
which I think she's trying to getdown to the bottom too. Even back

(16:30):
in the nineteen sixties, Yeah,exactly. I mean, even though this
decision in this case occurred in nineteensixty three, this is still a topical
and controversial subject even today sixty yearslater. But then the family got involved
in an entirely different kind of legalbattle. When William was eighteen, he
began dating a classmate, seventeen yearold Susan, her father who was allegedly

(16:56):
very physically abusive forbade the relationship,so Susan ran away to live with William
and the Murray family. Soon after, Susan's father filed charges against William,
saying that he was holding his underagedaughter against her will and brainwashing her against
her religion as her family was Jewish. Oh wow, so there's no truth
to any of these claims from herdad. She's not being held against her

(17:18):
will, I'm guessing. No.She made the decision herself to move in
with the Murray's. Okay, Sohow did this pan out? Well?
Soon after Susan found out she waspregnant, and she was able to use
that to her advantage to marry Williamwhile she was still under age without parental
approval. So the family thought thatthat would be the end of it.
They're married now and everything's going tobe okay. But it sounds like it's

(17:41):
not the end of it. No, of course not. The Baltimore Police
Department wasn't informed of the marriage,and they arrived at the Murray house to
take Susan away anyway, even thoughshe was legally married to William. The
officers wouldn't listen and of course suggestedthat there was at least some amount of

(18:02):
prejudice from the force against this outspoken, uppity atheist family who had caused so
many problems there in Baltimore. Madelinerefused to let the officers enter without a
warrant. Tempers flared, and bothWilliam and Madeleine, as well as Madeline's
mother, all ended up having physicalaltercations with the police officers. Wow,

(18:25):
even her mom had a physical altercation, even the mom, And at the
end of it, multiple felony chargesended up being filed against the family.
William received five counts of battery againsta police officer and Madeleine received eight counts.
They each were looking at maximum sentencesof over a hundred years. This
was huge. That seems outlandish.Yeah, even Madeleine's mother faced a possible

(18:52):
twenty year sentence for slapping one ofthe police officers during the fight. And
then in court, both William andmade became so incensed about the charges that
they caused a big scene and Williamwas slapped with an additional disorderly conduct charge.
So things are bad for the familyright now. Yeah, how are
they going to get out of this? Well, they posted bail and facing

(19:15):
impossibly long prison sentences. The entirefamily decided to flee Baltimore for Honolulu,
Hawaii, huh okay. For somereason, Madeline had this idea in her
head that because there are a lotof Buddhists in Honolulu and in Hawaii in
general, that somehow atheists and herorganization would be better accepted there, like

(19:38):
they could get to sanctuary or something. Yeah, pretty much okay there.
On February sixteenth, nineteen sixty five, Susan gave birth to a little girl
named Robin. Life in Hawaii wasshort lived, however, as the governor
elected to have them extradited back toMaryland to face their charges once again.

(20:00):
The family fled, this time toa little town outside of Mexico City,
where Madeleine got a job as aprofessor at an experimental, unaccredited college to
teach sociology and law. While there, she met a man named Richard O'Hare,
and the two married in nineteen sixtyfive. Madeline and Richard were together
for several years, but ended upseparating some time before his death in nineteen

(20:23):
seventy eight, so she tried playingto Honolulu, and then she actually left
the country and went to Mexico fora time. Okay. But eventually though,
the law once again caught up toMother Ann's son, William left Mexico
and went to the East Coast,where he was eventually discovered, arrested,
and taken to Baltimore to face hischarges. Meanwhile, Madeleine was deported from

(20:48):
Mexico and put on a plane toSan Antonio, where she was also immediately
arrested. She was shipped over toAustin and a public hearing was held regarding
whether or not she should be extraditedback to Baltimore. She spoke at the
hearing quote, the Declaration of Independenceof the Republic of Texas contains a ringing

(21:08):
cry for religious liberty. There isno state in this great United States which
can surpass Texas in the area ofpolitical dissent and religious liberty. So she's
laying it on pretty thick. Idon't know if all of us would agree
with those sentiments necessarily Madeleine, butyeah, she is trying to really pull

(21:29):
at the heartstrings of Texans. Yeah, because she's not a Texan per se
yet not yet. Yeah, butshe's definitely looking for support. Yes.
In the hearing, she also claimedthat she would be murdered in Maryland and
was in fear for her life,which honestly was a fair legitimate concern of
hers because she was truly so hatedin her hometown of Baltimore. Yeah,

(21:52):
she wasn't some really hot water.Yes, But despite Madeline's protests, Texas
Governor John Connelly ended up signing forher extradition back to Maryland. But in
a strange series of events, fortunefavored the murio Hares. All of William's
charges were dropped, with a judgeruling that the police had no right to

(22:15):
prevent him from seeing his lawful wife. And it's also interesting that like they
never presented a warrant anyway, theyjust barged in there. So at the
time, no, yeah, soit seems like there could be like countersuit
or like a good defense there,especially since this was a legal marriage.
Yeah. Absolutely, And of course, you know, the Baltimore police claimed

(22:37):
that the family attacked them, butthe family claimed that it was basically police
brutality. That they admitted that Williampushed one of the officers, but then
the officers just like converged on him, beat him very badly. Madeleine forever
for the rest of her life,had very serious neck and spinal cord injuries
from this altercation with the police.So this was a very serious sort of

(23:02):
fight that they had, really Yeah, But strangely, the charges against Madeline
herself were also vacated. But becauseof a strange turn of events, it
just so happened that the Maryland Courtof Appeals had reversed the murder conviction of
a Buddhist man who had been foundguilty of killing his wife. The man's
argument was that because all jurors inthe state of Maryland at the time were

(23:26):
required to declare their belief in God, he was not judged by a jury
of his peers because Buddhists do notbelieve in a God or a supreme being.
That ruling set off a huge chainreaction, and thousands of grand jury
indictments against Buddhists, atheists, andagnostics were voided across the entire state of

(23:48):
Maryland, including Madeline's on October twentysixth, nineteen sixty five, right place,
right time, exactly. And thisis a really interesting sort of legal
turn of events going on in Maryland. I've never heard of this before.
I thought it was really interesting howthis all came about. It is kind
of an interesting precedent though, thatthat case makes of requiring jury members to

(24:11):
say that I believe in God beforethey become a part of the jury in
some way fashion or form. ButI can see how like this giant tsunami
wave would cross all these other grandjury cases, like you said, and
have to hit another reset button ofwhere do we go from? Where do
we go now? And how dowe proceed with all these other cases that
need to be tried. So theMurio hairs what happens at this point,

(24:36):
like where do they go from here? After her charges get thrown out,
her family doesn't have to worry aboutthese other charges that are going on.
What happens from this point? Well, Madeleine really must have meant what she
said about seeing religious freedoms in thestate of Texas because she decided to remain
in Austin. American Atheists, withMadeline as its founder and president, continue

(24:59):
to push multiple legal cases over thenext decades. For example, she challenged
the constitutionality of prayer at Austin Citycouncil meetings. She tried to have the
phrase in God We'd trust removed fromUS currency. She successfully challenged to remove
a provision requiring the belief of Godfrom people holding office in Texas, and

(25:21):
she sued over the weekly religious servicesthat were being held in the White House.
She brought lawsuits against churches, states, the FCC, NASA journalists,
including Texas Monthly because of a brutalarticle by Lawrence Wright Corporations. Everyone.
Wow, she's been busy, andof course all of these lawsuits were funded

(25:44):
by the American Atheists. On someof these she was victorious, but most
of them she was not, andnone of them had the dramatic impact as
the first case that she was involvedwith, but they kept her relevant and
active in her pursuit of the rightsof nonbelievers and the separation of church and
state. Over the years, Madeleinebuilt a kind of media empire. She

(26:07):
had the American Atheist Organization, ofcourse, but she also founded other similar
atheist organizations around the country. Alongwith the magazine she started, she hosted
her own radio show as well asa TV program called The American Atheist Forum
that was broadcast on one hundred andforty channels. She also really embedded herself

(26:30):
into popular culture at large. AsI mentioned at the top, there was
the big article in Life magazine innineteen sixty four, where she became known
as the most hated woman in America. Then in nineteen sixty five, she
did a fascinating interview with Playboy magazinewhere she talked about sex and the church,
and feminism and her particular brand ofatheism. Yes, she also became

(26:56):
a popular guest on many different televisionprograms, notably The Phil Donna Hue Show,
The merv Griffin Show, and TheTonight Show starring Johnny Carson, but
there were many, many more.Most of her TV appearances, though,
were in the form of not aninterview but a debate, where they'd throw
her together with a preacher or aminister or someone and the two would just

(27:18):
go at each other yeah and talkabout the hot button issues between the two
pretty much yeah, and people tunedin. I mean, this was fascinating
and polarizing and above all else controversial, and her appearances always got big ratings.
Meanwhile, Madeline also rubbed elbows witha lot of high profile people,
including actors and other celebrities. Oneof her most fascinating relationships was with another

(27:45):
controversial figure, Larry Flint. Wow, someone else who battled legal precedent quite
a bit, yeah. I meanhe was also obviously for First Amendment rights
and all of that. I couldprobably talk to you were about an hour
about their bizarre, fascinating relationship witheach other. But he met her first

(28:07):
after interviewing her for Hustler magazine,and he called her the most brilliant woman
he'd ever known, and they hada long history together. She was even
his speechwriter during his nineteen eighty fourpresidential campaign. Really yeah. While Madeline
became a sort of celebrity atheist,either famous or infamous depending on how you

(28:29):
viewed her, William's path veered drasticallyaway from his mother's. He admits that
in his twenties he began a descentinto drug and alcohol abuse, extra marital
affairs, and that he was physicallyabusive towards Susan. Eventually, Susan ended
up divorcing William and left everything behind, including her daughter. Soon after,

(28:52):
William also cut ties with his oldlife. Abandoned by both parents, Robin
was adopted by Madeline and she raisedher as her daughter. William would go
on to get married and have anotherchild, but he says he continued abusing
alcohol as well as his wife,and he got in trouble with the law

(29:12):
once again, but eventually through arehab program, William J. Murray,
son of one of the most prominentand influential atheists in the world who was
the original plaintiff and a Supreme Courtcase that removed prayer from schools, found
God, and according to william hislife was forever altered. He says he

(29:34):
was able to work on his addictions, become a better person, and see
the error of his mother's ways.This culminated in nineteen eighty when Williams set
out a press release officially stating thathe had converted to Christianity. To add
insult to injury, the statement wasreleased on Mother's Day. Oh wow,

(29:56):
what a kick to the shorts.I mean, that seems very personal and
coming from a guy who is,like you said, has been a part
of this entire movement from the verybeginning. He was even helping make the
magazine. It sounds like he wasreal pissed at his mom. Yeah.
I think he definitely was, andthere was. This wasn't something sudden.

(30:18):
There was I think several years ofthem being estranged before this happens. I
don't think this was necessarily a bigsurprise, but it was I think a
big public fu to his mother.Yeah, that's what it sounds like.
Yeah. Well, not to beoutdone, Madeline responded publicly in kind quote,
one could call this a postnatal abortionon the part of a mother.

(30:41):
I guess I repudiate him entirely andcompletely for now and all times. He
is beyond human forgiveness. Wow.So he's just like completely ostracized forever into
perpetuity. It sounds like, yes. Absolutely. From then on, William
and his mother, brother and daughterwere completely estranged and they never spoke again.

(31:03):
Two years later, in nineteen eightytwo, William published an autobiography entitled
My Life Without God, where hedid not show Madeline in a very favorable
light, suggesting that she was aneglectful mother who used him as a prop
for her own personal ends. Well. William would move on to become a
Baptist minister as well as a lobbyistfor social conservative issues. He also currently

(31:29):
serves as president of the Religious FreedomCoalition, which is, according to its
website, a nonprofit religious organization whichassists persecuted Christians in various areas of the
world and advocates for Christian religious freedom. Which kind of sounds like the American
Atheists but for Christians, right,and even more interesting just like his mother.

(31:52):
His career also went on to includeTV appearances and several book deals as
well. Boy, what a characterarc in like a turn in his life
where he's just completely gone about faceand taken the exact opposite side of the
fight and has really taken it tohis mom. Yeah, and for the
rest of their lives these two wouldbe diametrically opposed to each other. Did

(32:14):
they ever debate each other on aTV show? No, As far as
I know, I think Madeleine kindof I mean, she had some negative
things to say about him, butgenerally speaking, I don't really think that
she spoke much about William after this. Whereas William, it does seem like
he has spent a lot of hiscareer talking about his mother negatively because a
lot of his career has been spenttrying to undo what his mother had done.

(32:37):
Wow. Yeah, I mean hewrote a book about it. Yeah,
So, I mean it's just reallyfascinating family destruction. Really. Yeah.
But with William gone, the AmericanAtheist Organization became a family affair with
John Garth and Robin as Madeleine's leftand right hands. In fact, in

(32:57):
nineteen eighty six, Madeleine retired andJohn Garth became president of the organization,
although in truth, Madeline never reallygave up control. She was always number
one. I bet she couldn't stayaway for long. No, of course
not. She's probably just pulling thestrings from behind the scenes, right,
Yeah, absolutely, And Robin beganworking for The American Atheist when she was
just a teenager, and she wasreally smart. In fact, she graduated

(33:21):
high school at sixteen, was acceptedat Brown, but ended up going to
the University of Texas on a fullright scholarship, and she graduated at just
nineteen years old. Madeline ended upnaming her secretary of the organization, but
many people suggest that it was reallyRobin who should have been named president,
given her prowess with running the organization. Oh interesting, but either way,

(33:44):
the three were tethered together for alltheir lives. Madeline, John Garth,
and Robin all lived together in thesame house, and they all worked together
in the organizations side by side.They ate every meal together, spent every
vacation together. Everything they did theydid together. Oh it sounds like they're
spending a lot of time together.I don't know, sometimes you need your

(34:06):
own time. Well, yeah,agreed, And there are definitely people who
would suggest that this might not havebeen the healthiest of dynamics between them,
that Madeline was very sort of controllingover John, Garth and Robin and really
dominated their lives, ran things withan iron fist, kind of just very
in control. Yeah. Absolutely,that's what a lot of people have suggested

(34:28):
at least, and all three ofthem together were also wrapped up in the
financial workings of the American Atheists organization. You see, over the years,
the American Atheists had amassed a largeamount of wealth. Some of it was
a combination of dues paying members ofthe organization, some from merchandise sales,

(34:50):
but most of it was from donations, and because Madeline was such an icon
for decades, the amount of donationsflowing in was massive. In nineteen eighty
five, in fact, Madeline waseven able to purchase a large office building
to serve as the American Atheists headquartersin Austin for one point five million dollars
in cash. So this is justsort of an example of the kind of

(35:14):
money they're working with. They justbought it in cash. Yeah. Wow.
And it's crazy to think that thatkind of infrastructure for this organization was
here in Texas in Austin. Yeah, that's right right at the capital.
So they're right next door to thecapital, so that they can jump into
legislation and legal battles like whenever theywant to. Yeah, I suppose that
was the purpose of it. Yeah, So they're pulling in all of this

(35:37):
money. And American Atheists, alongwith all of Madeline's other organizations, were
founded as non profits and therefore allof this money was tax exempt. Madeline,
John Garth, and Robin were ableto afford a very fine livelihood off
of the organizations that they controlled.They lived in a large house in a

(35:58):
nice area of Austin. They drovefine cars, Robin a Porsche, and
John Garth and Mercedes Benz. JohnGartha once bragged a Texas Monthly that his
suits cost around five hundred to sixhundred bucks each. Their house, as
well as their offices that the AmericanAtheists headquarters, were plush and finally decorated.
They went on month long vacations aroundthe world and only flew first class.

(36:22):
Oh wow. The one percent ofatheists. Yeah, right, Well,
accusations began to pile up that thefamily was using the organization's money as
their personal bank accounts. What itsounds like, Yeah, the irony being,
of course, that Madeline was operatingjust like the televangelists or churches that
she rallied against, by amassing moneyfrom followers, mostly in donations, not

(36:45):
paying taxes on them, and thenliving in luxury. And of course these
are the things that Madeline's critics aresaying, right, I mean, it
is pretty hypocritical. I think thatyou definitely have something to critique there.
For sure. There were even rumorsthat Madeleine's other organizations, and she had
seven or eight of them in total, were fronts or shell companies used though,

(37:07):
that she could move money around withoutbeing tracked, and that she had
multiple offshore bank accounts to hide moneyfrom the federal government. And by the
way, although these organizations had boardsand officers, of course Madeleine, John
Garth and Robin ran and controlled allof them, and all of them were
tax exempt. So all of thiskicked off a very contentious battle with the

(37:31):
IRS, which began around nineteen ninetyone. The IRS first tried filing criminal
charges against her, but they didn'tstick. Next, they filed to revoke
the tax exempt status of the organizationand claimed that Robin and John Garth owned
a combined total of one point fivemillion dollars in back taxes. They threatened

(37:53):
that Madeline was going to owe awhole lot more before their investigation was complete.
That's a lot of back Texas,yes it is. Meanwhile, Madeline
was also embroiled in a series ofprotracted lawsuits with another rich and powerful atheist,
James Hervey Johnson, that culminated innineteen ninety three when Johnson slapped the

(38:15):
whole family with racketeering charges under theRico Act, saying that she had tried
to seize control of his estate,which was worth like sixteen million dollars.
He actually hired a team of peopleto comb through the family's finances. Along
with these charges, it said thatthe family was deeply concerned that they were
going to lose this case that Johnsonhad against them. This sounds like an

(38:37):
episode of The Sopranos, except forinstead of Italian mobsters, their atheist families
that are trying to steal each other'sterritory and wealth. I mean kind of
yeah, and there was. Thiswas a years years long feud with the
Johnson estate that was going on fora very long time. I am being

(38:57):
very quick in describing it to you, but it is interesting if you really
wanted to go into it and digup more information. While between the Johnson
case in California and the IRS probe, there was real fear that the family
was going to lose everything, allof their personal assets as well as those
of their organizations. And there issome evidence that with the possibility of losing

(39:21):
everything on the horizon, the familystarted to at least toy with the idea
of once again running, this timeout of the country for good where no
one could touch them. But they'regonna go to like Panama or something.
Well, there were a couple ofcountries that were kind of battered around at
this early state, Cuba and moreimportantly New Zealand, but we will get

(39:43):
to more about that later. Interestingbut according to some staff members, Madeline
mentioned how they might show up towork one day to find the place shuttered
and closed. They even reported thatMadeleine secretly started boxing up the American Atheists
huge library, estimated to be worthover three million dollars in anticipation of the

(40:04):
move, along with liquidating other assetsof their organization. Okay, so this
seemed like it was a legitimate planat one point. At this point and
around like nineteen nineteen ninety five.Yes, Now, amongst all of these
problems, the family still was runningthe organization business as usual. The group

(40:27):
needed a new type setter for themagazine, so that someone who arranges the
layout of text for print, reallyimportant in newspapers and magazines. Yeah,
you had mentioned that her other sonhad done this for the magazine before he
found God and left. Yeah.Yeah, so a long time before William
was doing it. Well. Theyran an ad in the Austin American Statesman
noting religious persons may feel uncomfortable.Well. Yeah. In February of nineteen

(40:53):
ninety three, a man named DavidWaters applied for the position. David was
forty five, charming, intelligent,and Madeline took such a shine to him
that she hired him on the spotImmediately. David Waters became an invaluable asset
to Madeline. He was really goodat his job, and he got along

(41:13):
with everyone really well, including Madelineherself, which was no easy task.
A few months after David was hiredon his office computer disappeared, as well
as a printer and a few otheroffice supplies. Kat's fishy absolutely while Madeleine
contacted the Austin Police Department, whosaid that there was no sign of forced

(41:34):
entry and that it was likely aninside job, and they kind of left
it at that. No one suspectedthat it was David himself who'd stolen the
items. In fact, in earlynineteen ninety four, when Madeleine's office manager
quit, she offered David the positionand he gladly took it. This promotion
came with a lot more responsibility,so this was basically like an office manager

(41:58):
slash family's personal assistant type role.So David got the security codes for the
alarm system as well as the keysto the family home and the offices,
as well as passwords and access tocertain accounts and banking information. I don't
know if I like where this isgoing. It seems like a lot of
responsibility for one person to hold inthis organization. Maybe not for one person

(42:21):
to hold, but maybe for thewrong person to hold. Well. Just
a few weeks after David took overthe position of office manager, seventy thousand
dollars worth of government bearer bonds wentmissing from the safe in John Garth's office
at the American Atheist Headquarters. Somore things going missing, yes, And
once again Madeleine went to the AustinPolice and once again they told her that

(42:44):
the theft must have come from anemployee, and they pretty much refused to
investigate further, which, as wewill see, will be a running theme
for the Austin Police Department. Inthis case, Madeleine interviewed her entire staff
to try to figure out the culprit, but she had no luck. Once
again, David Waters was not suspected. In March of nineteen ninety four,

(43:08):
Madeline, John Garth, and Robinhad to fly out to California to appear
in court for hearing in the Johnsonlawsuit. The family left David in charge
in their absence, and John Garthgave him several blank, signed checks so
David could pay bills while they wereaway. When the family returned to the
office two weeks later, they foundthe building empty and locked. They checked

(43:30):
the answering machine and discovered a voicemailfrom David saying that he was resigning.
They contacted their employees and discovered thatin their absence, David had laid off
the entire staff. Wow. Andsoon they discovered that instead of using the
checks to pay bills, David hadcashed them in a series of transactions.

(43:52):
In total, he'd taken fifty fivethousand dollars from the American Atheist's main corporate
bank account. Who and he firedeveryone in the building's empty? Now,
yes, jeez, okay, hejust he got it, did a lot.
He literally gutted them. Now,there was plenty of evidence to charge

(44:15):
David Waters with the theft of themoney right away. Not only had John
Garth given him the blank sign checks, but the bank tellers remember David Waters
cashing them, and he had usedhis driver's license to do so. Well,
that's what that was going to be. My next question, is his
name really even David Waters or ishe, like you know, using a
false name to do all this andsteal all this money? No, it

(44:37):
was just his name. Wow,Okay, brazen. But yet again,
when Madeline took the matter to theAustin Police Department, they once again declined
to investigate. Okay, now,why Basically it's the same reason they're saying
that it is an internal matter,and it has something to do with employee
and employer, and we're going tostep way. But that doesn't seem right,

(45:00):
No, it's not, is it. No, that seems biased because
they don't like the organization. Well, it wasn't until Madeleine took to her
supporters and launched a letter writing campaignagainst the department that they finally agreed to
investigate. Still, it was awhole month before David Waters was arrested.

(45:21):
That's when he told the APD andthe DA's office his side of the story.
He admitted to taking the fifty fivethousand dollars from the organization and said
that he actually intended to steal almosttwice that amount, but he said that
the entire operation was the Murray O'Hare'sidea. He said that they had been

(45:42):
concerned about the ongoing court case backin California and told him that if it
didn't work out in their favor,they were going to flee the country.
John Garth gave him the checks andtold him to cash them for a total
of one hundred thousand dollars. Hewas to send a portion of the money
to the family in California in casethey needed to make a quick getaway and

(46:02):
put the other portion in John Garth'ssafe for his work. He said he
was told to keep fifteen thousand dollars. He said he only got around to
cashing out about fifty five thousand dollarsbefore his conscience got the better of him
and he decided to quit the job. Yeah, so do we believe his

(46:22):
story because that seems pretty ridiculous.Well, on the one hand, the
Irs probe and the Johnson case,everybody knew about those things, and everybody
knew that the family was worried aboutlosing all of their assets. So on
the one hand, people kind ofbelieved that this story could have been possible.
But the thing is, the Johnsoncase was months and months before it

(46:45):
was actually going to be decided bythe judge, so we were way far
out from them needing to make thatdecision about leaving in like preliminary stages.
Yeah, exactly. And the otherthing is, you know, he was
charged with at least Madeline was accusinghim of chart of stealing fifty five thousand
dollars, Yet he is admitting tobe an accomplice to stealing one hundred thousand

(47:08):
dollars. Yeah, that's real weird. I don't know that I've ever heard
of a case like this where someone'sadmitting something like that to the police during
an investigation, thinking they're going toget away with it. But for how
unbelievable his story might have been,it must have convinced the APD and the
DA's office because they agreed to allowhim out on a personal recognizance bond.

(47:30):
Everyone basically thought, oh, theatheists are a bunch of crooks anyway,
so his story checks out. Ittook two more months before anyone bothered to
do a criminal background check on DavidWaters, but the results were shocking.
It turns out that David had along record of criminal charges, beginning from
when he was a teenager in Illinois. At seventeen years old, David,

(47:54):
along with three of his friends,beat another teenage boy to death in a
horrific act of violence. The boy'sname was Dave Gibbs, and he'd refused
to allow David Waters to borrow hiscar, so David and the others beat
the boy savagely with their fists andfinally with a tree branch. At the

(48:15):
end of it, David had usedthe vehicle to run over the boy's legs
so he couldn't walk for help,and then they had left him to die.
Oh my god. Yeah, Davidhad been charged as an adult in
that crime and pleaded guilty to avoida death sentence, but even then he
only ended up serving twelve years behindbars before he'd been paroled. Shortly after

(48:36):
that, he was imprisoned again afteran assault on his mother, where he
allegedly tore apart her house, beather with a broom handle, and then
urinated on her. Other than thosecrimes, he'd spent years in and out
of prison, serving time for othercharges that included forgery, burglary, criminal
trespass, and weapons charges. Ithought this guy was just a thief.

(48:59):
He sounds like an absolute monster ina dangerous one. Yes, But even
though this was a violent criminal who'dpreviously served time for similar charges, I
mean, if you're talking about forgeryand theft and there was a solid case
against him for stealing a pretty largeamount of money, there's a lot to
suggest that the system continued to goeasy on him. For example, when

(49:22):
he was indicted for the theft,the grand jury suggested that he beheld on
a fifty thousand dollar bond, Yetthe DA's office agreed to only a ten
thousand dollar bond. Then the courtallowed the case to be postponed over and
over again at David's attorney's request.It was first set forward July nineteen ninety
four, but it kept getting pushedback for almost a year, and in

(49:45):
some of these hearings, neither Davidnor his attorney even bothered to show up,
and yet their request for postponement werestill granted. Huh, they really
did not like the Murray o' hares, did they. That's very much what
it seems like. And then inMay of nineteen ninety five, David Waters
agreed to a plea arrangement. Heagreed to plead guilty to theft along with

(50:07):
three other charges, and in exchange, he got deferred adjudication like what you
get for a traffic ticket, yes, or what you get if you are
a first time offender. Or it'sa very small kind of case, you
know, a small charge, notnothing serious about fifty five thousand dollars and

(50:30):
not someone who has been a longtime career criminal right offender. Yeah yeah.
Well, under the terms of hisprobation, he was ordered to stay
away from the family and make restitutionpayments to them until he paid back the
money he had stolen. So thatfifty five thousand dollars okay, as long
as he didn't violate the terms inten years, the charge would be removed

(50:52):
from his criminal record. Well,Leasie has to pay it back. I
guess. Oh, well then I'mnot and he's gonna Well here's the thing.
Then, Dave had claimed to beunable to afford the payments, so
the judge agreed to decrease the amountof restitution to only fifteen thousand dollars.
Wait, I don't understand. Hestole fifty five thousand. Where did the

(51:14):
money go? Well, first ofall, it was harshly to pay for
the attorney. I guess that's true. Yeah, who knows. I mean
he spent it on something. Butnow it's been decreased. He stole fifty
five thousand dollars and he only hasto pay fifteen thousand backs. This is
ridiculous. And then when Madeleine askedthe judge for a restraining order against him,

(51:36):
citing his violent history, the judgedeclined to grant one, saying that
the terms of his probation was enoughto keep him away. I don't think
that's how it works with violent criminals. You can't just hand someone a rule's
card and say, oh, hehas this, even though he has a
track record of just annihilating people andjust leaving a wake of destruction. I

(51:58):
mean he could actually, he couldget absolutely harm these people. A restraining
order is not out of the question. Yeah, I mean that's what a
lot of people said, But Nope, refused to actually give her one.
Uh. There is some suggestion thatthe judge might have had a little bit
of a bias against Madeline. Whatwas he Catholic? Well, it turns

(52:19):
out that Madeleine had had a previousinteraction with the judge assigned to the case.
This was Judge Wilfred Flowers. Yearsbefore, Madeleine had been sent a
summons to appear in his courtroom forjury duty. She held a press conference
saying that since jurors were mandated totake an oath to God in order to
serve on juries, it was aviolation of her rights and she vowed to

(52:43):
not appear in court and for ata drama. She had lit the jury
summons on fire right there at thepress con And yes, you can actually
see a video of her doing thison YouTube if you're interested. I mean,
I kind of also loved this laterat the same time, like just
the gall, her gall and hergumshin, like she's brave. She was

(53:07):
certainly full of it, that's forsure. Worried that her previous stunt might
have turned the judge against her,she had asked that Flowers recused himself from
this case, but he refused.So of course, some people and Madeline
herself had suggested that her stunt,along with just the general negative public opinion
about her, all played a rolein David Water's lax punishment. That makes

(53:30):
sense, but still it's not rightthough, No, of course not.
And Madeline was obviously very upset withthe court's ruling, and she wanted to
screen this injustice to every corner ofthe world. But Madeline was also genuinely
scared. She'd heard all of thedetails of David's crimes, and she knew
that he was potentially very dangerous.She didn't want to provoke a man like

(53:53):
that. Yeah, he sounds scary, Yeah, So Madeleine turned once again
to her porters, and a specialarticle for the American Atheist magazine, she
laid out the entire story. Shedescribed in detail how her ex office manager,
David Waters, had stolen money fromthe organization. She described the lackluster

(54:14):
efforts of the Austin Police Department thatDA's office, along with the judge's ruling,
saying that the system was biased againsther. She also laid out all
of David waters past crimes, fromforgery to theft, to murder to brutalizing
and urinating on his own mother.She said that she wanted all this information
to be public record, and thatif anything bad should happen to her and

(54:36):
her family, David Waters should bea prime suspect. Now, this article
only went out to a few thousandpeople, and perhaps Madeline didn't believe that
David Waters himself would ever have accessto it. Shortly after she published the
article, she got some incredibly luckybreaks in her legal battles that probably made

(54:57):
her a very happy woman. First, the judge in the Rico lawsuit in
California sided with Madeline. Oh,so now that's gone offer case millions of
dollars, you don't have to worryabout it. Second, the irs agreed
to settle the one point five milliondollar debt. They said John Garth and
Robin owed for a mere seventy fivethousand dollars, and they agreed that upon

(55:22):
payment, they would halt all investigationsagainst the family. Okay, so this
means like they're going to be ableto keep their nonprofit status. Yes,
okay, keep their nonprofit status.The irs is no longer going to be
out to get them, gotcha.And later still they further decrease that amount
to just thirty five thousand dollars.So it was originally one point five million

(55:46):
down to thirty five thousand, likechump change, right, Yeah, they
can afford that. Yes, sothe Murray o Hares were off the hook
for millions of dollars. These wereboth huge, much needed wins, especially
after what had happened with David Waters. Right, sounds like they are on
their road to recovery and maybe backin business. Yes, absolutely, and

(56:07):
for now at least, there wasno longer any reason why the family would
need to flee like they had somany years before. That's why it was
so strange when they disappeared just afew months later. On Monday, August
twenty eighth, nineteen ninety five,staff showed up to work at the American
Atheists headquarters to find a typed messageon the front door. It read quote,

(56:31):
all employees of American Atheist General Headquarters, Incorporated, the Murray o Hare
family has been called out of townon an emergency basis. We do not
know how long we will be gone. At the time of the writing of
this memo. Your paychecks for thisperiod of August sixteenth through August thirty first
is enclosed. We do anticipate thatwe shall return prior to the next payroll

(56:53):
period closed date of September fifteenth.The note was signed by John Murray.
Now, it wasn't unusual for thefamily to leave unexpectedly or to be kind
of secretive with their comings and goings, but it was still odd for them
to leave town without telling anyone.Yeah, I mean, you would think

(57:14):
they had like office administrators and officemanagers and people who would have known that
they were leaving. Yeah they did, and yeah, they did not let
them know. So a staff membernamed Spike Tyson decided to drop by their
home and check it out. Sincethe debacle with David Waters Madeleine had increased
security measures at their home, andSpike didn't have the security codes to enter

(57:37):
but outside. He said that bothRobin's Porsche and John Garth's Mercedes were both
gone. Stranger still, the family'sbeloved dogs had been left behind in the
backyard. This was Robin's cocker spanielsGannon and Shannon, and Madeleine's rat terrier
Gallagher. Everyone who knew the familyknew that they adored these dogs, and

(58:00):
leaving them alone outside like that withoutmaking arrangements for the dog's care was very
unusual for them. But it seemedlike they had it under control because the
next day Robin called the VETS office. She told the receptionist that there was
a family emergency and they had toleave town, and she asked that someone
come pick up the dogs and bringthem to the clinic so they could be

(58:21):
boarded. The receptionist who spoke toRobin would later say that this conversation was
odd because Robin was very distraught onthe call, and it sounded like she
was crying, and it was outof proportion to the situation because it was
no problem for the VETS office togo grab the dogs and board them,
but Robin was seemed very upset,very emotional during this phone call. But

(58:44):
I guess in a way, youcould also rationalize it where she said there
was a family emergency, so likeyou could imagine what if there was a
death in the family. She's emotionalor someone's terminally ill, like maybe that's
why she's crying. I don't know, but there could also be something else
going on too. A few dayslater, there was another phone call from

(59:04):
the Murray o' hare family. Usinghis cell phone, John Garth called the
vice president of the American Atheists,a woman named Ellen Johnson. Ellen said
that John Garth told her that thefamily had been called away on important business,
but they would be returning as soonas they could. She said that
John Garth didn't sound distressed or upsetat all, and nothing in the conversation

(59:25):
made her concern that there was somethingamiss. Soon after that, Spike called
John Garth on his cell phone tolet him know that people from The Phildonna
Hugh Show were calling once again.Madeleine had been on the very first episode
way back in nineteen sixty seven,as well as another episode in nineteen seventy
and now in nineteen ninety five.They were asking to schedule her to appear

(59:50):
on the final episode of the show. Ever, Oh wow, that's a
big deal. Yeah, Well,John Garth promised that he'd talked to Madeleine
about it and they would get backto them. Spike said that John Garth
repeated that they were away on business, but he didn't want to get into
the specifics, just that they wouldbe back soon. Once again, Spike
said that John Garth sounded completely normalon the phone and there was nothing to

(01:00:14):
suggest that the family was in anydanger. Throughout the month of September,
Ellen and Spike continue to have thesekind of mundane conversations with the family.
They even spoke about their plans topick it out of visitation by the Pope,
who was set to arrive for abrief tour of the US on October
fifth. This was supposed to bea big event for Madeline's organization. Everybody's

(01:00:36):
supposed to get together, go meetup where the Pope was going to be,
and they were all going to pickit. Spike and John Garth talked
on the phone almost every day.Ellen also spoke to John Garth several times
and even had a short conversation withMadeline, but again nothing seemed to miss.
But when John Garth asked her tomail them two blank checks from their

(01:00:57):
corporate bank account, claiming that theyneeded the money. Ellen pushed back a
little. She told them half jokingly, I have no idea if there's a
gun to your head. But shedid eventually agree to send the checks to
John Garth. But she did eventuallyagree to send the checks. John Garth
gave her the address of a PObox in San Antonio, and Ellen sent

(01:01:20):
the blank checks as well as herown check for a thousand dollars just to
help them out. San Antonio,by the way, is about eighty miles
southwest of Austin. And this isthe first indication that the Murray o Hares
were in San Antonio. Yeah,and this also has some trappings of David
Waters in it with the blank checksituation before, where he had cashed blank

(01:01:44):
checks. Like we're sending blank checksagain. M interesting. Well. Ellen
also spoke to Robin, but theirfinal conversation was much more tense. Ellen
would later describe Robin as sounding ofraid and distracted. Ellen asked her what
was wrong, but Robin said nothing. But at the end of the conversation,

(01:02:06):
Robin said something that would come tohaunt Ellen. She said, cryptically,
quote, I know you'll do theright thing, and then hung up.
Unfortunately, no one knew what theright thing was supposed to be.
Think hard, they're kidnapped, That'swhat it sounds like. They're being held
against their will. Do the rightthing, tell the authorities. Well,

(01:02:28):
I mean, nobody knew what wasgoing on. And this is the thing.
Madeleine controlled her organizations and everything withsuch a firm hand that questioning her
was just almost not done in theorganization. So, I mean, if
Madeleine is telling them that everything isokay, in their mind, everything is
okay, So it's not that faraway from the day to day functioning behavior

(01:02:51):
of this nonprofit. Okay, yes, agreed. And again the family again
was very secretive. They were kindof weird about their finances they were talking
about Yeah, exactly, So,I mean some of the stuff wasn't necessarily
super weird for people. The finaltime anyone from the organization spoke to the
Murrio Hares was September twenty ninth,nineteen ninety five. After that date,

(01:03:16):
none of the family ever called themor answered their calls. Again, there
was no contact made to schedule Madeline'sappearance on the Phil Donahue Show, and
on October fifth, when the Popecame for his visit. The family did
not appear at the protest. Itwas like they had just disappeared. Over
the next few months, rumors aboutthe Murrio Hares disappearance started to go around.

(01:03:40):
Ellen Johnson and Spike Tyson, whowere pretty much speaking for the entire
organization in the family's absence, puton a brave face to the outside world.
They kept up the story that thefamily had told them that they were
away on important business and there wasnothing to be concerned about. Nobody wanted
to make Madeline angry by telling peopleher business or going against the family's explicit

(01:04:03):
word, But privately they began toworry that something bad had happened. Spike
decided to do some more digging atthe family's home. Since he didn't have
the code for the alarm, hegot a ladder and crawled into the home
through an ac decked Oh whis verysmart. Yeah, so he's John mccleaning
himself up into the attic. Yeah, okay, all right. And inside

(01:04:28):
it was obvious that no one hadbeen there in weeks. Plants were dead,
the mail was piled up, therewas food rotting on the kitchen table,
as if they had just gotten upand left in the middle of a
meal. Okay, bad sign.And while clothes and toilet, trees and
things were missing, there were itemsstill at the home that had been left
behind, as if the family hadbeen in a huge hurry. For example,

(01:04:50):
Madeline's insulin, which she needed everyfew hours, was still sitting in
the refrigerator, and every one ofthe family's passports had been left behind.
The insulin is very problematic. Mthat doesn't sound good. Yeah, that
sounds like she's in bad shape,even if she's alive. At this point.

(01:05:11):
Well, the only real clue theyhad was the PO box with the
San Antonio address, so Spike wentdown to San Antonio himself to see if
he could find the family. Hespoke to the local hospitals to see if
any of the three had become injuredor ill. He finally was able to
speak to a pharmacist who told himthat Madeline's blood pressure and heart medications had

(01:05:32):
been refilled three times in September inSan Antonio. Okay, that's something,
yes, And it's also assumed thatshe got her insulin at the same time
her insulin was not There was nota prescription required for her insulin, so
there wasn't an actual record of that, but it seemed like at least for
the month of September, Madeline wastaking care of given her medications just fine.

(01:05:55):
Well that's a good sign, yeah, but there wasn't any of her
medication being refilled after September. Ellenalso tried to dig up information on the
family, calling up atheist organizations andMadeline supporters all around the world, but
no one seemed to know where theywere. The months dragged on, and
although there were a few probing questionsby journalists and others, the story about

(01:06:19):
the disappearance of the family wasn't reallya story at all, with the American
Atheist Organization assuring people that Madeline,John Garth, and Robin were okay.
Not many people asked that many questionsoutside of the organization. The general assumption
was that the family had absconded toavoid the IRS or to avoid charges,

(01:06:41):
something that the family had done before. Most critics who assumed the worse of
the family suggested that they probably hadeven stolen money from their organization to fund
their escape and were living somewhere inluxury on an island somewhere. Despite the
fact that they didn't even have theirpassports with them. People even thought they
knew exactly where the family was hidingout New Zealand. See the family had

(01:07:06):
mentioned to more than one person aboutmoving out to New Zealand if things ever
got hot for them in the States, and John Garth himself had paid a
visit to New Zealand shortly before theirdisappearance, suggesting that he was scoping it
out before the planned move. Theidea was strengthened even further when one ex

(01:07:27):
staffer told reporters that just before thefamily went missing, he discovered bank statements
from a secret offshore account in NewZealand that held almost a million US dollars.
To many people, this was clearevidence that the family had funneled money
away from the organization and were nowliving in paradise. In response to these

(01:07:48):
reports, Ellen Johnson and Spiked Tysonboth made firm statements that there was no
money missing from any of the accountson record, But still the idea that
the family had run off willingly andleft everything behind became the assumption of most
people. Wow, and the organizationitself hasn't gone to the police yet,

(01:08:09):
so they have not And then inDecember of nineteen ninety five, something happened
that for a lot of people solidifiedthe idea that the family was alive and
well. As we will remember,the family's three dogs had been taken in
by the vet's office to be boardedat the end of the year. That
the vet was like, hey,we can't just board these dogs for the

(01:08:30):
rest of eternity. You need todo something with them. So the American
Atheists had taken them and kept themat the headquarters, so they were basically
hanging out in the office building.Well, those three dogs also disappeared,
first Robin's dogs Gannon and Shannon,and then a few months later Madeline's dog
Gallagher also went missing. To many, this served as proof that the family

(01:08:55):
was alive and well and they hadarranged to retrieve the pets that they loved
so much. So this solidified itfor people, like, oh, of
course they're alive and they retrieved theirdogs, but they just they were kind
of living at the office like theyhad I guess kennels there or beds for
them or something, and then theyjust vanished. So they're thinking the family
came into the office after hours andgot the dogs at some point the family

(01:09:18):
themselves, or most likely that theyhad hired somebody to come and basically steal
the dogs so they could get thedogs back. Yes, oh okay,
it still seems very fishy to me. Well, a few people though,
as you, Shay, I guessyou would be in this camp. They
did wonder if something more sinister hadhappened to the family. Some wondered if

(01:09:39):
foul play was involved. After all, Madeline had made a lot of enemies
in her career and received innumerable deaththreats. Maybe a religious fanatic had captured
them, or maybe they'd been secretlyarrested by the CIA or kidnapped by the
Vatican. These were real threat,real rumors going. That's why they didn't
show up at the Pope protest isbecause they had already got them. The

(01:10:00):
Vatican police had taken him to VaticanCity and thrown him in the bottom of
the Vatican City I guess yeah.Even though the case with David Waters had
happened just months before the family wentmissing, his name was never mentioned amongst
the speculation at this early time.Does this guy have a superpower or something?
Does he have like deflection abilities?Right, he's easily ignored it seems

(01:10:25):
like well. By the end ofthe year, the American Atheists office building
was put up for sale. Fora while, it looked like the organization
was going to fall apart completely withoutthe Murray o' hare's leadership. Eventually,
though, the remaining officials and boardmembers were able to right the ship under
the leadership of Ellen Johnson, whobecame the new president of the organization.

(01:10:46):
They were even able to continue themagazine that Madeline so dearly loved. Through
it all, no one bothered toreport the family as missing to the police.
Why even William, when asked bya reporter if he planned on making
a missing person's report for his estrangedfamily, responded dryly that he wouldn't make
a missing person's report on people whodidn't want to be found. What this

(01:11:11):
is so bizarre? And so thestory continued like this for a full year,
with no further contact with a familyand no official investigation into their whereabouts
by law enforcement. And that's howthe case could have remained if it wasn't
for one reporter, a man namedJohn McCormick, whose own prying into the

(01:11:32):
story launched a multi agency probe thatwould eventually uncover what really happened to Madeline,
John Garth, and Robin, andthat is where we will leave off.
Ah, you left us on acliffhanger. I want to know what
happens. I want to have allthe details, and I guess you're going
to give them all to us nexttime. You're not going to hold anything
back. Yes, we will gointo all of the details next time.

(01:11:56):
This story is so crazy, andI'm really excited to talk to you,
specifically about the work of these journalists, about John McCormick, how he just
sort of swoops in and really becomesthe reason why this case was solved.
Fascinating. It really is the wholefamily's life and the organization and the battle

(01:12:17):
between law enforcement and the media,and then also like these journalists like digging
into the case. It's all reallyfascinating. I can't wait to hear more
about it in the next part.Yeah. Absolutely. And you know,
Madeline Murray O'Hare herself was such apolarizing and fascinating historical figure and I just
did a very abridged, shortened versionof her early life and a lot of

(01:12:43):
the things that she was doing.So if you're interested, I would highly
recommend you go down and check outsome of the links that we have in
the bottom, or just learn moreabout Madeline's life because she was just such
an interesting character. Well, Iam interested, and I am going to
click on some of those links inthe bottom, especially the forensic files.
Okay, we'll do that, butdo it after part two, after part

(01:13:03):
two. Okay, so don't wantforensic files until part two, y'all.
But I'm definitely going to click onsome of those links because I do want
to learn more. She is avery fascinating person. But we do have
other things to cover on the showthat are also fascinating. Would you like?
And good? And good and happy? Imagine that those things typically fall
under the title of a segment inour show called good News. Are you

(01:13:26):
prepared for some good news? Iam prepared? What about good news with
a dog every day? I wouldlike to hear that? Woo? All
right, well, are you inluck you've won the lottery? Because we
have good dog o news coming upright after this. Welcome back, everybody

(01:13:56):
to the segment called good News.Today's good news comes to us from Darlene
Jannick Fairs from Fox twenty six Houston, as well as Stephanie Winger from People
Magazine. Now, early last month, a dog was unfortunately lost at sea.
Eric, how is a dog lostat sea? Well, this poor

(01:14:18):
dog unfortunately was lost somewhere out inthe Gulf of Mexico. Now let me
tell you how it all went down. So the dog's owner, shrimp boat
Captain Keith Kiwi, soffis he goesby Kiwi, was out near San Leone
catching shrimp. That was his job. He has a shrimp boat, and

(01:14:40):
he was out there that day andunfortunately realized at some point that his best
friend, his dog, Monster,had unfortunately fallen overboard without anyone noticing nouns
and Monster is this like really beautifulgray pit bull that he had adopted and
rescued and as a puppy, Andshe had basically just spent her whole life

(01:15:03):
working with him on the shrimp boatbecause she was a shrimp boat dog.
The point that Monster most likely fellout of the boat was unfortunately, probably
like five miles from the shore.So he was out pulling up these shrimp
areas, these shrimp nets about fivemiles offshore where he thinks that she fell

(01:15:24):
overboard. And this is a likelydeath sentence for any dog because not a
lot of dogs can swim five miles. Yeah, I mean I couldn't,
and I got thumbs. I don'tknow what thumbs have to do with.
Even with like floaties and flippers,I don't think i'd make it. Yeah,
right now, he did tell PeopleMagazine quote, I said, where

(01:15:48):
she at. It was the middleof the bay, pretty much. I
mean, you know, open water, four or five miles from any type
of land. My heart just fellapart. I couldn't even speak. But
I turned around and I got myGPS coordinates and I said, we're going
to find her. I looked upand down the coast for hours and hours
until the sun went down, andno monster in sight. So having no

(01:16:12):
luck, he rushes home and hegets on social media on Facebook, and
he posts this like really just tearjerking post quote. I lost one of
the most important things in my wholeworld, one of the things that I
truly love, my best friend,monster dog. We don't really know what
happened. We think that she felloff the boat on a slick, calm
day. She had been on theboat her whole life, since she was

(01:16:35):
a puppy. I searched and searched, hopefully somebody picked her up. We
were around mile marker seventy one.If anyone hears any talk about her,
please contact me. Totally heartbroken,sad faced tier emoji. So for days,
tips started like pouring into Captain Keith, and none were really fruitful.

(01:16:57):
He went and checked out some ofthese tips and they weren't the right dog,
and he just he started to kindof lose hope. Especially after five
days, he'd sort of given upthat Monster hadn't made it, And he
said, quote, I started tellingmyself, she couldn't have made that swim.
It's too far. There's no waythat a dog could swim that far.
She's gone. But that day,when he had given up all hope,

(01:17:20):
a final tip came in about adog who looked very similar to Monster
at a nearby trailer park who waschained to a post outside of a trailer.
Captain Keith decided to check it out, and lo and behold, it
was Monster dog. Monster had infact made it and had been rescued by
a local resident on the beach,and they fed her and they watered her,

(01:17:43):
and they were they were just kindof holding her until they could figure
out, like whose dog this was, and she swam that five miles back
to shore. Yeah, and Keithtold People Magazine quote, I was crying
so hard I couldn't even talk.She was giving me so many kisses.
I think her swimming every day onthe boat saved her life. Probably.

(01:18:06):
She was probably a real good swimmer. Oh yeah. And just her just
her being on the boat and beingused to water is what really saved her.
So yeah. I mean he hadthese stories about how, you know,
they would be pulling up the shrimpnets and they would get all the
shrimp and they'd empty them out intothe pots and stuff, and then she

(01:18:27):
would go over and play with thenets and sometimes she'd fall overboard and then
she'd swim back to the area whereshe'd get up. Or she'd chase birds
and jump off the boat, youknow, and stuff like that. But
yes, just being a water dogprobably saved her. Wow, that's crazy.
Yeah, she swim five miles.That's a lot. Yeah. But
anyways, it's they're all reunited.Monster Dog is back with Captain Kiwi,

(01:18:50):
so you know they can shrimp togetherand their photos are adorable. I will
also put the good news links inthere because there are videos and photos of
Monster Dog and Captain Keewee's. Yougotta check those out. Yeah for sure,
But there you go. That's somegood news, adorable. I love
it so much, so happy thatmonster dog is okay for sure. All

(01:19:19):
right, y'all, this is theafter show where we think some of our
patrons. But first you can findus on Instagram at All Crime No Cattle
and at Twitter at ACNC podcast,and you can join our group in Facebook
called ACNC Posse Discussion Group. Y'all, I did that all of my first

(01:19:40):
try. You got you got it. There's no rest there. That's fine.
Yeah, that's fine. And alwaysremember that you can find us at
patreon dot com slash All Crime NoCattle. We have several different tiers where
you can get stickers and swag andget shout outs, just like we're going
to do right now, all rightnow. First and foremost, we have

(01:20:00):
to thank all of our Texas Rangersthat they are our biggest supporters and contributors
to the material. They are honoraryproducers of every episode that we do on
this show, so thank you verymuch. And those include Amanda Mattaford,
Angel Moody, Don Maloney, GailParker, Jamie Gray Jennifer and Magnolia,

(01:20:21):
Jessica Layfield, Lee Dardy, LisaLayton, Mickey Sweet, and Sarah Nicholson.
Thank you, guys. You arethe heart and soul of this show
and we appreciate you so much.Now. Some recent contributors to the show
who deserve a shout out include EmilyJamie Carnez, Isabelle Patterson, Rachel m

(01:20:43):
Romine, Erica Mahoney, Lily,Chastity Prosser, Carrie Chance, Kenney Ford
the Third, Aliah Punturi, KarenBarrish, Kim Jessica Couch, Anna Masa,
Katherine Peevie, and I'm Amanda Metaphord. Again, thank you guys so
much. Y'all are awesome. Thanksfor becoming a part of our patrons,

(01:21:05):
and I hope you've been enjoying thenew Patreon only episodes that we've been putting
out over there. We've still beenputting content out there for all of our
patrons, so enjoy all of that. And I hope you're all having the
best of July's. You're staying safeand cool and this heat wave that we
are under it is oppressive. I'mtrying to say I'm ready for fall.

(01:21:29):
Well falls a few months coming.But you know what else is coming up
soon? Halloween Part two of thisepisode. Oh yeah, part two of
this episode. Yeah all right,y'all. Well, we'll see you next
week. I'm excited about part twoand until next time, always remember crime
is bigger in Texas, y'all.Audios, good Bye, Goodloe, good bye,

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Ep 96: The Disappearance of the Murray-O'Hair Family, Part I

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