Episode Transcript
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Joe Van Wie (00:01):
Hello and thanks
again for listening to another
episode of All Better.
I'm your host, joe Van Wee.
Over the course of 30 years,jerry Pickard has coached tennis
at Valley View with a sense ofhumor and a smile For as jovial
as he's been, his experience thelast two seasons has brought
(00:24):
him that grit.
He's been.
His experience.
The last two seasons hasbrought him that grit.
Having helped save the programfrom extinction years ago.
Influenced by his daughterShannon's desire to play, who
elevated to a star the Cougars,the affable Pickard is reveling
in his opportunity to coach hisgranddaughter, kiana.
This is awesome, pickard saidin his identifiable raspy voice.
(00:46):
She's a good athlete and beingable to coach her is one of the
main reasons why he stayed.
In 1985, valley View SchoolBoard considered dropping girls'
tennis Interest was waning.
Nobody wanted to coach.
Shannon was eager to start hercareer on the courts, so Pickard
(01:07):
submitted an application withthe caveat that only he'd be
considered if nobody else cameforward.
They didn't.
Pickard was hired and he hasn'tleft.
He just retired not too longago.
Retired not too long ago.
(01:29):
This was an excerpt from theScranton Times written by staff
writer Joby Fawcett.
It was from 2015.
Jerry spent three decades alsoas a notable character in the
recovery community, takingdozens and dozens of people
under his wing and mentoringthem in a life that produces
recovery.
(01:49):
You get to sit and talk toJerry today about many things.
I think you'll enjoy it.
He's one of the mostinteresting people I've ever met
in recovery and I think you'llagree.
Let's meet Jerry, and we'rehere with Pick Pick, how you
(02:10):
doing.
Thanks for coming today.
Jerry Pickard (02:12):
Thanks, joe, I'm
fine.
How about you?
Joe Van Wie (02:17):
I've been waiting
for me.
I'm just glad to finally gethere, sit and have a chat, and I
had no plan on what we weregoing to talk about.
Okay, and I'm not going to askyou to drink any magic mushroom
tea while we're here.
Okay, pick, how did you end upin AA?
Jerry Pickard (02:51):
end up in AA.
Well, prior to coming in AA, Ihad a friend who I spent one
summer with, who was amotorcycle guy, a pretty crazy
guy, a drinker, drugger, and Atthe end of the summer he went to
rehab.
That was in 1981.
It was a crazy time.
But you know, in 1983, Icontinued to drink and I was a
(03:17):
blackout drinker and every timeI would come out of a blackout
and at that time I wasn'tdriving I would call Victor and
he would come and pick me up,drive me back to Jessup.
As soon as we stopped at thestop sign, like on the way up
(03:38):
there, I'd tell him I think I'mready for AA.
As soon as he stopped at thestop sign, I'd jump out of the
car and tell him see you later,baby, and I'd run home, you know
.
So that went on and on, but hekept coming for me.
He kept coming for me everytime he called me and you know
he wasn't pushy or anythingabout AA, but he was my
(04:00):
attraction.
I knew the way he was and Iknew he was sober.
So when I called him up thelast time on March 8th 1983, he
came and got me.
I didn't know where I was.
I was down in Green Ridge.
I didn't know what day it was.
It was a Wednesday.
The last thing I remember Iwent out on Friday.
(04:21):
I went out on Friday, so hepicked me up and took me up to
St Joe's Hospital up inCarbondale and it just happened
that day that they had aneducational series going on and
it was about blackouts and I hada friend that was a doctor at
(04:43):
the time and she used to tell meall the time you know, you're
going to die, you can't bedrinking like that, especially,
you know, and blacking out, andif you don't sleep and you
continue to drink, yourinvoluntary muscle centers are
going to shut down.
And so, excuse me, thathappened.
(05:03):
You know, I watched it and itscared me.
And that night I went to theSalvation Army with Victor the
first time and I started goingto meetings that night.
I went to meetings for about ayear.
He picked me up right before myfirst anniversary, you know,
(05:25):
going all over with Victor, hissponsor, aj, and you know the
rehabs just opened up.
At that time Marwit opened upand it was one, two, three.
One, two, three, doing stepsone, two and three.
That's what they were talkingabout, but there was a lot of
people in the rooms at that time, older guys, that had the
(05:46):
solution, you know, and itseemed that their solution was
belief in a higher power.
So you know right.
Joe Van Wie (05:57):
So the first three
steps.
For anyone who's not familiar,it's this admission that you
have a serious problem you can'tsolve yourself.
Can you solve it like the othergroup of people you're just
meeting, and will you surrenderto the program or this idea of a
higher power?
It's kind of thisgeneralization of the first
three steps.
What was your relationship witha higher power at that point?
(06:18):
Were you an atheist?
Were you an agnostic?
How would you describe yourselfthen?
Jerry Pickard (06:25):
I was a believer
because growing up I had an
aunt that was a nun, two firstcousins that were nuns and a
priest.
That was my first cousin.
So I believed in God.
I went to church.
I remember going up one day tobe an altar boy and we just went
(06:48):
out to play baseball insteadand we didn't join.
But you know, I had a beliefbut I didn't know what it was.
You know, I knew there was aGod because of my upbringing and
stuff like that.
My belief in a higher powercame in Alcoholics Anonymous and
(07:10):
so right before my first year Iquit coming.
I was a bartender all my life,with your dad actually, oh yeah.
Joe Van Wie (07:19):
Where were?
Jerry Pickard (07:20):
you guys at.
I was down in the Strip and hewas at Jim Egan's.
I was in the El Dorado and hewas at Jim Egan's.
I was in the El Dorado and hewas in Jim Egan's.
You know, my bartending shiftwhile I was teaching was 10 at
night to 6 in the morning Crazy.
Joe Van Wie (07:35):
Did you guys hang?
Jerry Pickard (07:36):
out.
Yeah Well, I was a good friendof yours.
Actually we had the samegirlfriend one time.
Oh my God, yeah, yeah, it wasfunny.
I used to knock on his door at3 o'clock in the morning and
he'd be in there and he'd goPickard, get the hell out of
here.
But we were good friends, sure,even then in the rooms we were
(07:57):
good friends.
So you know, I left for a year,not a year.
I quit right before my firstyear went around to August and
in August I hadn't gone to ameeting.
I went back to attending barfor a week only and I hated it
because I wasn't high and Iwasn't drinking.
(08:19):
I couldn't stand being aroundthe people like that.
So my son had a football injuryand lost his vision in one of
his eyes and this doctor came infrom Chicago.
That was a friend of myex-wife's brother who went to
(08:40):
Dartmouth with him, and he camein and examined him and so I was
in the chapel at the MercyHospital and I said to God, I
said in a prayer of desperationplease let his vision come back,
and I'll go to church every dayfor six years.
Three weeks later his visioncomes back and my first thought
(09:03):
was why didn't I say six weeks?
Joe Van Wie (09:08):
You know, so you
felt, heard, you felt like a
relationship was now happeningwith some divinity.
Jerry Pickard (09:16):
Yeah, you know,
I could have believed it was a
conversionary reaction.
I could have believed that itwas just swelling in his neck
and the swelling went down andthe optic nerve started to work.
I could have believed thosethings.
But I was desperate to believein something because I was
(09:37):
afraid of dying at that time andthese guys that were in AA were
always talking higher power,higher power, you know.
So that was in August.
So I started to go to church andmy cousin, the priest.
I called him up one day and Isaid geez, bill, I think I need
(09:58):
an exorcism here.
And he said what do you mean?
I said I'm in church and I'mlooking up at the crucifix and
I'm looking over at the girls inchurch and the old ladies and
everybody having all thesethoughts and they're just
driving me crazy.
I can't concentrate.
(10:19):
So at that time I mentioned thatat a meeting and my spiritual
advisor that I use today, art,came up to me and said you have
to empty the bowl.
So I couldn't think to praythat way.
So I got something tangible andI went to the cupboard for one
(10:43):
year, got a bowl of water anddumped it into the drain while I
was saying God, please directmy thinking, take away all my
negative thoughts.
After a year of doing that, youknow, half like three or four
months into it, I was standingthere and I'd say, say to myself
what am I out of my mind here?
(11:05):
You know, just thinking it wasso crazy.
But I kept doing it because itwas suggested and we were told
back then follow suggestions.
Joe Van Wie (11:17):
Well, this is real,
it interrupts.
I think the primary symptom youcan point to that there's a
mental health crisis for someonein early recovery is if they
are honest with you and tell youwhat they're experiencing.
What you just described isrumination and it's resentment.
Resentment, now, how they'redifferent.
(11:37):
Rumination's the thoughts ofrepetitive thoughts, usually
negative in its connotation, ofconversations that weren't
finished.
I wish I didn't say that.
What are other people thinking?
Repetitively, repetitively.
And then resentment would bethe emotions.
This thought life has so muchdimension.
You're experiencing theemotions of your thoughts as if
(12:00):
it's an actual reality, as ifit's actually happening.
So you're having a second lifewhich is causing just suffering,
and this is happening now, ayear into recovery.
You interrupt this, you'resaying, with this ritual of
filling a bowl and dumping it.
What happens is that you seethat, let's just say, for an
(12:23):
exaggeration, 80% of yourcognition through the day is
dedicated to things that aren'thappening and you're having an
emotional life from it.
By emptying that bowl, bytaking a suggestion, a
suggestion that puts you deeperinto a community, because now
you're doing the same thingsthey're doing.
You're now alleviating.
Holy shit, none of the thoughtsare happening.
(12:45):
This isn't real.
And you're getting alleviating,holy shit, none of the thoughts
are happening.
This isn't real, and you'regetting the bowl empty with it
with it.
Is that a way?
Am I summarizing yourexperience?
Oh yeah, exactly so.
Jerry Pickard (12:56):
So that goes.
So now you're, you get betterat that.
So so now I'm, I'm still goingto church every day, right?
So now, the one day I walk in,those thoughts are gone.
So what's my thought?
Yo, what happened here?
You know what happened.
So now something's working.
The higher power, which I choseto believe, was doing that at
(13:18):
that time.
So awareness, followed bychoice, I choose, I made the
choice to believe that.
So then, all of a sudden, rightafter that, I'm up in a meeting
up in Glenburn.
This guy comes out of nowhere,never saw him before anything
(13:39):
and he says to me hey, richardHarris.
Joe Van Wie (13:43):
Richard.
Jerry Pickard (13:43):
Harris, yeah, I
said what do you mean, Richard
Harris?
He said, boy, you're putting onquite an act here, aren't you?
And I said what do you mean?
And he said, well, you neverdid the steps, did you?
And I said no, he just put youout in front straight like that.
Yeah, and he said no.
And I said no, I never did thesteps.
(14:05):
And he said do you want me toteach you the steps?
And I said sure, and he said,well, come down to.
And it just happened, he was atthe University of Scranton, he
was a Jesuit, and I went downand I sat with them.
I mean, nobody did the bookback then, Joe, no, no, no, but
(14:26):
like like we do now you knowthey did this.
Bruce brought that, our friend,yeah, and that was in what the
night, early nineties or 1991.
Joe Van Wie (14:34):
Right 1991.
Jerry Pickard (14:37):
And and so this
guy.
Now, this is 1984, right InAugust of 80.
Joe Van Wie (14:42):
you're right in
october of 84 and you're on a
retreat doing this I know I'mmeeting him every tuesday down
at the?
Jerry Pickard (14:50):
u?
Oh, okay, right.
And so he says to me, after youknow the unmanageability thing
in the first step and all thatand and he said all I want you
to do is just be honest with me.
And so when we got to thesecond step, he said these are
(15:11):
the three most important wordsyou're ever going to read Came
to believe.
And he taught me and convincedme that I was meant to be in AA,
that that was my mission.
How did he do that?
(15:32):
Like what was the pitch?
His pitch was, you know, hesaid, your higher power, the God
.
He was God, he said, aftertelling me that he learned more
about God in AA than he did inhis.
(15:54):
Like now, jesuits went toschool for a long time 12 years,
yeah, so he over his time, his12 years in the seminary and so
on.
So he taught me.
He said look.
He said you want to make thiseasy.
I said yeah, man, I, you know,I really do.
I want to make this easy.
He said all you have to do isbelieve.
Just try this.
(16:15):
Believe you're meant to be here.
That was his pitch.
Believe, you're meant to behere to help somebody that
didn't get here Right.
25 years later, my cousinswalked down the steps, right,
yeah, heroin addicts recovering,right, just got out of rehab
(16:38):
and today they're 16 years sober.
You know, his prophecy wasanswered right there and you
know so all little things kepthappening along the way that
kept me believing, you know.
And so as we went through thesteps and he told me, you know,
(16:59):
like when I was going throughthe fourth step and I'm writing
it down and I discover I was alousy father, so you know, and
he said you don't have to bethat anymore, that's already
happened.
That's already happened.
We just have to, you know, dealwith that now and give it to
(17:25):
God.
Yeah, you know, let go, let God, which, as you find out along
the way, when you're inAlcoholics Anonymous, sometimes
that's the hardest thing to dois to let go and let God because
of your ego and so on.
But then at the end, when youfinally do it, you say, geez,
why didn't I listen to theseguys in AA before, you know,
(17:48):
from just trying to do it yourown way, and so on, like that.
Joe Van Wie (17:52):
I think you said it
earlier and you know, you know
me, I'm a secular.
I was pretty resistant, I waspretty pissed off, even though I
desperately needed help.
The word faith in itself, Iresist.
Like it was like oh, I knowwhat's next after that, the
pitch, and you know, if you goto the core idea of what faith
(18:12):
is, you were saying belief.
It's a Latin word for trust.
It just means trust.
It doesn't mean you have tobelieve anything supernatural.
And what I could not do and whatyou just described is trust
that what worked for someoneelse could work for me.
I already knew it wouldn't workwithout doing it.
And until I did it and you justdescribed until you do it
(18:33):
you're like what did I miss?
It's because I didn't have, Iwasn't, trust, because I wasn't
honest.
And that's kind of thedescription you just described
even of your idea of God.
Being a Catholic background,You're now having an experience
of God that's an immersion oralmost fundamental to reality,
(18:54):
that if you got sober, theconnection of you is not
separate from your cousins yearslater.
That your life now, this storyof having some conscious choice,
eventually to choose recovery,has cascaded and affecting
people you weren't even aware ofand that spirituality, I think,
(19:14):
to anyone Catholic,non-Catholic.
Your life is now affectingpeople, without your permission,
in a really honest and truthfulway, because you accepted
saying yes to working the steps,or you could have just told
that guy I don't know whatyou're talking about, Fuck off.
Jerry Pickard (19:31):
Like you're
ruining my gig.
Yeah, see, the thing is, though, when you're you, though, when
you're you know you're sufferingall those years of suffering,
when we become aware of that,that we suffered, you know.
(19:52):
And then, especially, whenyou're reading, like in we
Agnostic, you're reading in thatone sentence where it says
you're faced with theself-imposed crisis.
Right, whoever thought of that?
You know, I never thought I hada self-imposed crisis in those
years.
No, I thought I was having funbecause, you know, I'm doing
(20:13):
what I always did Self-imposedcrisis, you know.
And then it asks you are youwilling to believe, you know?
So I had that willingness onlybecause that guy popped up.
Where did he come from?
Why me?
You know what I mean, yeah, sothen you just think like, wow,
(20:35):
if he's telling me, like maybethis is meant to be, you know,
maybe this is meant to be for meto go this way so think of what
solved your problem, and Ithink you and I always agree
that meaning is spirituality.
Joe Van Wie (20:51):
You have a shared
meaning now he.
He laid out an idea of meaningand purpose that defeats
addiction, because authenticitycan rise from there.
Prior to that, you're just.
You're kind of just buying timeuntil you can figure, find
meaning.
And the steps are really coolbecause they could give everyone
meaning if they work themexactly right.
Jerry Pickard (21:15):
So what does it
tell us?
It tells us that, having had aspiritual awakening as a result
of these steps, you know, andthey ask us in there, you know.
They say, you know two choicesgo on to the bitter end or
accept spiritual help.
We get spiritual spiritualitythrough other people.
That's that we learn.
(21:36):
That I, you know, I learned, Ilearned that from other people,
just being aware of yoursurroundings and so on and see
what people do.
That's how I think that.
But the meaning that you get outof it is inherently.
That comes because it says thatthis power has always been
(21:58):
inside of you.
So just by you know, they saythe attraction rather than the
promotion or anything like that,the daily reprieve that we get,
based on our spiritualcondition, is what drives us to
be spiritual, you know.
But sometimes we're notspiritual because we're not
(22:23):
making contact with the higherpower.
I mean, that's what I'velearned.
Yeah, you know.
Like if I'm fighting with mygranddaughter when my
granddaughter was nine, if Itake her to school, if I'm
arguing with her at eighto'clock in the morning, like how
spiritual am I?
She's eight.
Joe Van Wie (22:41):
Yeah, you know what
I mean.
Well, I hope you're winning theargument.
Jerry Pickard (22:43):
No, I don't know
she's a woman, so I never want
too many of those.
Joe Van Wie (22:50):
How did your
experience now transform?
Because we've had I've had thisconversation.
Bruce, our friend, always hadthis conversation.
That just puts it into thisframework.
The steps are all written inpast tense in N-A-A-A and
there's a reason.
First off, it was 90 years agoand they're dead.
(23:12):
The we isn't there, but they'reall plural.
We admit it.
We came to believe we made adecision, right, made a decision
.
So you see, we made a decision,right, made a decision.
So, you see, having had aspiritual awakening, this is a
group they're describing andBruce used to always say you
can't be part of the we untilyou work all 12 steps, like at
least get through the firstround of practice in the steps.
(23:35):
Now, like traditions in AA say,you can attend meetings if you
have an honest desire to stopdrinking.
Well, that's fine.
That doesn't mean you're partof the we yet, like the we are
awake and I've been in AAmultiple times where I was not
(23:55):
awake and you're describing.
Now you're a couple years intothis and you're going to have
the second half of theexperience is working the steps,
which was missing.
How did that change yourexperience with feeling like
you're a member of AA?
Jerry Pickard (24:12):
By the
fellowship, by allowing myself
to become into the fellowshipand into service.
Joe Van Wie (24:26):
If you're suffering
from a substance use disorder
or your addiction is bringingyour life to a standstill, call
1-888-HELP-120.
That's 1-888-HELP-120.
This hotline is available 24hours a day, seven days a week.
(24:47):
Use evidence-based practice,crisis intervention and
trauma-informed therapy to helpyou get to the treatment you
need.
End addiction now at1-888-HELP-120.
1-888-help-120.
Jerry Pickard (25:14):
You know they
stress service and so on.
And when I was 30 years, sober,I asked Bruce to take me
through the steps again and Isat with him and the price
chopper down in Taylor for fivemonths and the reason I did that
was because he asked me to takesmoothie for the steps, because
(25:36):
he said he took them throughthem three times.
He said he said, well, howabout you giving it a shot?
And I said, okay, bruce, yougotta, you have to, you have to
refresh me.
Yeah, because up to that pointI didn't take any anybody
through the steps, but I I wasgoing to, I was retired from
teaching and so on, so I hadtime and I do that now, I do
(25:58):
that at.
You know, I've taken four guys.
I take four guys through rightnow, but I do it at 7 in the
morning or 8 in the morning.
So we discussed all that youknow, showing as an example you
(26:24):
know, set up the meeting, get itready, get somebody to help and
so on.
So the fellowship itself, Ithink that the one-on-one, like
you were talking about before,is the key.
You know well, this is whatsomeone told me or suggested to
me and it worked for me.
So you pass that on.
Joe Van Wie (26:46):
Yeah.
So I think, knowing you andgoing back to the experience.
This guy tells you you're meantto be sober, you're meant to be
in a life of recovery and youjust described okay, two cousins
show up later and now they'recelebrating 16 years.
That's your recovery kind oflane.
The other reason you haverecovery is your career, and
(27:11):
what you dedicate your life tois education being a teacher,
being an athletic mentor and acoach, which, if I'm not
mistaken, you just ended your78th season as a tennis coach.
So that's got to be thousandsand thousands of lives that got
(27:37):
to be around a man who practicedthe principles of honesty,
integrity, humor, love,tolerance.
How do you describe that?
What is the meaning there?
We just described the meaningof AA.
What's the meaning in the otherportions that you call your
life, that you brought recoveryto?
Jerry Pickard (27:58):
Well, the thing
is, I spoke at my daughter's or
my granddaughter's memories in2018, when she graduated, and my
topic to the kids was it's okayto be you.
That's what I learned here inAA.
It's okay to be you, and Italked about being aware of your
(28:20):
surroundings and being aware ofyour friends, that it's our
responsibility to be helpful ifwe see they need help.
It's our responsibility to be afriend and to converse with
people and to show your empathyand your compassion, and so on.
(28:42):
So I never cut a kid from myteam.
I never did that.
I have, right now, 48 girls onmy tennis team and we only play
seven.
Everybody's happy because Ispend extra time in like two
extra months before the seasonstarts in the summer, and so on,
(29:05):
and they're they're learningsomething.
They're learning like gettingalong with people, camaraderie,
learning how to play tennis,having fun, being sociable, you
know, especially coming afterCOVID.
I mean, the kids were locked inthe house for a year and a half
.
Joe Van Wie (29:24):
Yeah.
Jerry Pickard (29:26):
You know.
So how could you say, oh, youdidn't make the team.
Joe Van Wie (29:29):
How did you
experience seeing the lingering
effects?
Of that when the kids startedcoming back to school and sports
.
Jerry Pickard (29:36):
Yeah, well, they
were more self-centered, yeah,
you know, uh, less lessaggressive, uh less competitive
in a bad way, yeah, and and ontheir phones all the time the
phone just dominated by the.
Joe Van Wie (29:55):
Yeah, the phone man
is.
What does that look like to you?
What year were you born, dear,47.
So you're born in 47.
The Nazis just got extinguished.
We're going into our heyday asAmericana and now you see, the
extension of your frontal lobeis a device in someone's hand.
And it's the lowest form?
(30:17):
I think no, it's a fact.
And it's the lowest form?
I think no, it's a fact.
Social thought is becoming likeI don't want to be dramatic and
say a sewer, but it's a reallyshallow form of critical
thinking.
And instead of having criticalthought, we're constantly just
magnetized to this social poolof thinking, this social pool of
(30:38):
thinking.
Do you see this affecting notto be, you know, whiners, but
value virtue?
Or you just described that itaffected drive or competition,
or do you see it affectingvalues and virtues yeah, but not
for everybody.
Jerry Pickard (30:57):
Not for
everybody Not for everybody, not
for everybody, not foreverybody.
You know.
Like I just had a boy on mytennis team that is such a nice
guy, he's driven, he wasvaledictorian of the class, you
know.
I told him.
I said Connor, I said you know,I've coached thousands of kids.
I said you're the only one,you're the one that likes school
(31:17):
the most out of a thousand.
You know, but like it's as ourgenerations are different, like
I graduated from high school in1964, and I went to college from
so 64 and graduated in 68.
(31:38):
Then the 70s came and I don'teven remember them.
You know what I mean.
You were really a part of them.
Yeah, that's what they say.
If you remember the 70s, youweren't there.
Joe Van Wie (31:51):
Yeah, you voted for
Nixon yeah.
Jerry Pickard (31:54):
But now you know
, kids today, they're not
interested in politics, they'renot interested in what's going
on in the country.
Joe Van Wie (32:02):
They don't have
that awareness Not to get
political, but it scares mebecause to not have any civic
obligations, that's frighteningbecause of what could be lost.
But then I pay attention to thenews.
It seems like a cartoon and Icould see why you could be just
exhausted, and I think a lot ofpeople are exhausted with
(32:24):
politics now.
But to see a generation belowus not understand the civics or
that the idea of liberty, oryour interest to keep and
maintain liberty, it's just Idon't know what other apparatus
(32:45):
besides the.
You know what you could callour broken one, but it's.
It's not violent, and so we areenough people going to pay
attention to this.
Or maybe we just leave it to AIto be in charge of all of it.
Jerry Pickard (32:58):
That's a comment
.
You know what?
They don't teach it, though,joe.
They don't teach it.
They teach civics in eighthgrade.
So what do you remember by thetime you're?
So, when you're in eighth grade, you're 13 or 14.
Now, when you're 18, 19, 20,and 21, it's a different game.
So what do you remember fromfrom from when you were in
(33:19):
eighth grade?
No so that should be something,probably that that we teach all
the time.
Yeah, you know except in highschool.
You will get a government APcourse but but 10% of the kids
in school take the AP courses.
You know what I mean.
So stuff like that happens.
(33:40):
But the main thing is thatbecomes the responsibility of
the parents.
So if the parents are two,parents are always working.
Joe Van Wie (33:53):
Or the sad fact is
we have a if I want to
overgeneralize it, say anoverpolarized population.
Now, unlike anything in quitesome time, you're getting two
different narratives of whatgovernment is if it's left to
the home is, if it's left to thehome Now, granted, that's part
(34:15):
of liberty.
But this seems to be having aserious effect, not only to our
maps or voting districts.
But I don't want us to falldown a complete rabbit hole.
The one question I had I wantedto go back to the 60s.
You go to college right afterhigh school, did all your
(34:36):
friends?
Jerry Pickard (34:37):
Not all of them,
you know.
Joe Van Wie (34:40):
Was it common that
most of the class, even in 64,
from up Valley would go tocollege?
Jerry Pickard (34:45):
Well, I think
that we only graduated.
We had Jessup High School.
We didn't even have a gym, nobasketball team.
We had two sports, football andbaseball, and for the girls
they had cheerleading.
Wow, but so.
Joe Van Wie (34:56):
I went to.
Jerry Pickard (34:56):
Mansfield team.
We had two sports, football andbaseball, and for the girls
they had cheerleading, wow.
So I went to Mansfield.
And how about this?
The tuition $125 a yearsemester.
What are you?
Wow.
And you could take 18 credits.
Oh my God, $125.
Joe Van Wie (35:14):
That's just awesome
.
It's probably that cost now Ifyou really bored down value and
cost they just have, you know,just exorbitant fees.
Jerry Pickard (35:28):
Yeah, but it was
so.
That's how easy living was backthen, though you know it was.
Everything was easy.
Joe Van Wie (35:36):
Did you play sports
in college?
Like how did your relationshipwith tennis begin?
Like why?
Jerry Pickard (35:41):
tennis.
I took and and I was a trackcoach at valley view and, uh, my
daughter was a good tennisplayer my daughter shannon and
so they were going to droptennis.
So I put an application in.
Please accept this asapplication for the head girls
coach only if no one elseapplies.
(36:03):
No one applied.
I got the job and went 0-13 myfirst year.
You know it's pretty cool,though Since that first season I
haven't had a losing season forall those years.
Joe Van Wie (36:19):
What do you
attribute that to?
Jerry Pickard (36:21):
To just being
able to get along with kids and
having athletes come out and,you know, just making it fun for
them.
When it's fun, it's easy tolearn.
Joe Van Wie (36:37):
Did you have to
learn how to play tennis to
coach, or did you already knowthe basics?
Jerry Pickard (36:41):
No, I didn't
know anything.
I used to ask Shannon whatshould we do here?
You know, but I got you know.
From then on, I learned it.
I read yeah, what year was that?
1986.
Joe Van Wie (36:57):
So we got McEnroe.
Was just finishing his career.
Jerry Pickard (36:59):
Yeah, I watched
all those guys yeah.
Joe Van Wie (37:02):
Pete Sampras,
there's a great documentary on
McEnroe a couple years ago.
Did you see that?
No, I got to send that too.
Oh, it's wild.
Jerry Pickard (37:12):
Wild.
Well, he was wild, oh madman.
Joe Van Wie (37:14):
Yeah, and he's
great now I was listening to him
last week when the French Openwas on.
Just looking at the basics oftennis, of what it came from,
like just people lobbying, likea couple you know countryside
gentlemen in Sussex County justlobbying balls at each other to
see it go to 120-mile-an-hourserve and the likes of McEnroe
(37:39):
Agassi.
These guys are lunatics.
Like it doesn't look like likeat first glance, these would be
the leads of this entire sport.
These guys are insane.
Jerry Pickard (37:51):
Well, yeah, now
they're 6'10".
You know, now, look at Agassiwhere he was 5'6" right or
something like that, or 5'10".
You know, now, look at Agassiwhere he was 5'6" right or
something like that, or 5'7".
But it's a.
You know, the tennis culturehere is the private schools are
hard.
Yeah, you know, they have.
They're out there to takelessons and so it's very
(38:12):
difficult to win district titlesand so on, because you have to
play Wyoming seminary.
Do you make speeches?
Joe Van Wie (38:22):
Like, listen guys,
it's us versus the rich kids.
Jerry Pickard (38:35):
I want you to
take dead aim on the that are
like my success has to beattributed to girls and boys
that played other sports.
Yeah, you know, like softballplayers and basketball players
and so on.
So they want to be competitive.
(38:56):
Yeah, and just being a lot oftimes being athletic is enough
to win.
We've been very, verysuccessful, I think, as a AA
school, a public school with theexception of Abington, I would
say that we probably, at ValleyView, have the best record over
(39:19):
the last 38 years for a publicschool.
Yeah, you know, but it's youknow it's pretty prolific, yeah,
but like you can't go, a lot ofthe kids like can't pay the $90
a lesson to go to Birchwood,yeah, $90 an hour, you know.
Joe Van Wie (39:40):
And that's 90 bucks
an hour to get a private lesson
in tennis.
Jerry Pickard (39:43):
Yeah, and who's?
Joe Van Wie (39:44):
given the lesson,
or like how old?
Are the, the, the trainers?
Are these young guys or?
Jerry Pickard (39:49):
some of them are
like uh, up in, or or they have
like nowadays there's a lot offoreign people up that are up in
Birchwood doing it.
A girl from Dunmore who's 25,anastasia, she's up there, I
think.
Joe Van Wie (40:09):
Does tennis have
pros, like golf Like?
Is there like a club proteaching or are these?
Just how does that work?
Jerry Pickard (40:16):
Yeah, well, the
guys that own it, like Bill
Stege and his daughter, theythey run Birchwood.
Okay, you know they've beenaround.
Joel McNulty from Scranton runsthe Scranton tennis club.
You know he w he was a coachfor many, many years but he's
the pro up there and you knowthey run a nice program at the
(40:39):
Scranton Tennis Club.
That's pretty affordable forthe local tennis players and
they have three clay courts upthere and they run a nice summer
program.
So if anybody's interested inlearning how to play tennis, you
know they should go up there.
They have men's women's, theyhave tennis and you know they
should go up there.
They have a.
They have men's women's.
Joe Van Wie (40:59):
They have
tournaments, you know 78 seasons
jr, and I want to do a thoughtexercise.
This could have been a lifethat never was.
Oh yeah, in 1983 that couldhave, and then even in 1984,
being around for a year andmaking one decision to not go
further in real recovery, whatyou described as the awakening
(41:20):
you could have working steps.
None of this would havehappened.
Jerry Pickard (41:23):
Oh no, I
wouldn't have been probably
around past 86 or 87.
Joe Van Wie (41:29):
So this is just
phenomenal the lives that could
be touched by one person beingin recovery, that could be
touched by one person being inrecovery and when you were
talking earlier about shameemptying the bowl, just this
overwhelming intrusion ofthoughts that we call negative.
(41:49):
This is the real curiosity forme in my meditation.
These thoughts are rarelychosen, they arrive, and what we
do choose where I would say aperson has agency is where
attention can be drawn ontothoughts.
But you can't pick thoughts,they just kind of emerge and
(42:09):
then you either get hypnotizedby them, start telling yourself
a story, Start telling yourselfa story, Some of those thoughts
when the words should, couldhave, this would have happened.
This creates shame and tormentand they're only words that
exist in kind of like language.
They don't exist in reality.
(42:30):
There's no such thing as wouldor could or should have happened
.
It never has happened.
There's only exactly whathappens, and your description
earlier was that you got alignedspiritually, emotionally, with
only one life.
I saw I was a lousy father.
I just said this is true, butdoesn't have to be true of
(42:51):
moving forward.
You can't get to what exactlyis happening without admitting
honestly what exactly happened.
Jerry Pickard (43:00):
Right.
So that's the importance ofconfessing yeah, okay, of doing
your fifth step, of doing yourcomplete moral inventory in your
fourth.
So when you're doing the fourthand fifth, you know, it tells
us after the fifth step that aswe became okay with ourselves,
now we move out towards God andothers.
(43:22):
You know, because we'resatisfied with what we have done
in the complete moral inventoryand so on.
But as far as the mind goes, Ithink that when we develop the
ability to observe what we'rethinking and to look at it, to
separate our mind from itbecause I've learned that I'm
(43:45):
not my mind, yeah, I'm not whatI'm thinking, you know.
And so, like guilt, you know, Idon't feel, I don't do guilt,
you know, because guilt is onlya thought I create.
If I'm feeling guilt, I'mcreating all that and then
(44:07):
that's my self-imposed crisisbecomes guilt.
So I don't have to do that, soI can look at something and look
at my thoughts and say, wow,I'm still nuts and let it go.
But you have to have somethingto let it go to.
And that's where, that's wheremy belief in, in, in god comes
(44:30):
and and that I could do that.
But but I under.
Joe Van Wie (44:34):
You're right about
shame and stuff like that yeah,
there's a language to shame andit has to.
It's a language of regret andyou have to use those words.
I could have.
I should have.
This should have happened.
This should have been my lifeif, if only something else
happened.
There's no place where otherthings happen.
(44:54):
There's only only one thinghappening, right, exactly.
Jerry Pickard (44:57):
So that's where
the blame comes in.
Yeah, it's crazy, you know.
That's why, in the fourth step,right where the dishonesty part
of the fourth step tells usthat you know we're being
dishonest.
You know people think that whenthey're going through this,
well, dishonesty is lying andall that kind of stuff.
It's not that.
It's us giving power to someoneelse to affect our security,
(45:22):
our ambitions, our self-esteemand our personal relationships.
That's what it teaches us.
So if I'm giving someone powerto do that, I'm being dishonest
to myself because I should beokay with me.
If I'm okay with me, whatsomeone else says shouldn't
(45:43):
affect me and I should allowthem to be who they are.
Joe Van Wie (45:48):
When you're taking
someone through the steps and
just a note like a base.
Here we're talking about fourcharacter defects AA likes to
outline four selfishnessness,and they tackle this idea of
resentment, and then this ideaof fear, and then the last one's
, dishonesty, and at firstglance it could just easily be
chalked up to a line cheatingand you described it in a more
(46:14):
meaningful contextual way.
Do you think it's?
Do you?
Do you see people struggle withtrying to understand AA's
meaning of dishonesty?
That you are believing theworld is to blame for how you
feel and what your life is?
Jerry Pickard (46:27):
No, because that
goes back to the one-on-one
that you were talking aboutbefore.
It goes back to that.
It goes back to that.
When you're doing theone-on-one, you're using your
experiences to explain what thatmeans.
You know, so that's easier forsomeone to understand, and then
(46:47):
it clicks.
Joe Van Wie (46:48):
It's better than
the room of 30 people admitting
you don't know what.
Jerry Pickard (46:52):
I'm not sure
what you're all talking about.
Joe Van Wie (46:53):
They're words I
understand.
I just don't know if we allsometimes you know when a
newcomer doesn't understandcontextually, the dishonesty is.
You said it earlier.
I am not my thoughts.
Jerry Pickard (47:05):
Right, right.
So you're not.
So how about when you think youknow what someone else is
thinking about you?
Joe Van Wie (47:14):
Oh yeah, it's
called mental illness anywhere
else, but I've been saying right, but.
Jerry Pickard (47:20):
but we're
convinced that that's what
they're thinking.
Joe Van Wie (47:22):
I'm convinced of it
, if, even if I haven't seen
them in 10 years, like there'salmost a childlike quality to my
alcoholism, substance usedisorder, that my relationships
are frozen in my memories and Istill, if I go back to these
relationships, I never evaluateit like oh my God, that's crazy
to think that way.
(47:43):
This person's even consideredand we don't notice it when it's
making us sick.
But when you finally wake up oryou're writing it and you talk
to another person, you realize,holy God, this is what really
happens in my mind.
This is insanity.
Jerry Pickard (47:57):
Right.
So that's why it's so importantto observe what you're thinking
.
You know, if you could get that, take that step back and do it.
But sometimes we dive right inthere and then it's wow, what's
going on.
You know, but you just think ofall the behaviors that those
thoughts precipitate behaviors.
(48:18):
So how many times have you said, you know, like say, you had a
girlfriend or something likethat, and in your mind you
believe she's cheating on youand she's not?
Yeah, but you do that right andit's so nuts.
It is what follows that, likeyou know it's so nuts.
It is what, what?
What follows that?
Like you know it's.
(48:39):
It's just crazy.
But and when you talk to guysand you're sharing this with
them, they get it becausethey've done it.
Yeah, you know, and that's whyit's so important that you know
if you want to like you weresaying before what Bruce said
you do the 12 steps right andyou have to experience that.
(49:00):
So if you're sitting down withsomeone and as you go through
that, it says as the result ofthe steps, we had that spiritual
awakening, which is a change inpersonality, so we change, we
automatically change.
Joe Van Wie (49:20):
Yeah, yeah, it's
almost effortless.
If you do it that way, If youdo it in order, the change is
effortless, it happens.
Jerry Pickard (49:26):
Right, it's
guaranteed.
Joe Van Wie (49:29):
It's the base
education.
I think what most good therapyoutside of AA is that thoughts
like to put them in this order.
Thoughts create emotions,emotions drive behaviors and
action.
And by the time people end upin treatment or the crisis that
would push them towards recovery, all they could see is the
behaviors and there's just thisworld of misunderstanding.
(49:52):
Why can't I change my behaviors?
Because by the time you noticethem, you're already doing
something, it's too late.
So it almost looks like freewill doesn't exist Like this.
This hypnosis is taken over anindividual, and this can happen
with behaviors even in recovery,that you're not aware of second
behaviors.
But if you early on, throughthe act of emptying that bowl,
(50:15):
interrupt it to the base ofwhere these things begin
Thoughts, thoughts.
You're not picking, thoughtspop in the head, but if they
stay there long enough, you tella story to yourself and that
story will become emotional andexciting.
And if it's exciting enough, Ibetter do something about this.
They are cheating, they arethinking about me, they are
talking about me, let me go dosomething.
(50:37):
And then the action looksinsane because it's all Right.
Jerry Pickard (50:41):
Because it
became real.
Yeah, you actualized madnessyeah.
Joe Van Wie (50:46):
I.
I think that's what people feel.
They that's the first part ofan awakening.
It's okay.
The drugs are gone.
You know this weird solution Ithought I found an alcohol,
cocaine, heroin.
That's gone.
Why am I still suffering?
Or if because I, these thoughtsare just dominating the person
(51:09):
now.
Jerry Pickard (51:10):
Right, that's
because that's their
conditioning, though.
Right, that's why he got highand drunk.
That's because of yourcondition to do that.
You know, even like with, say,self-pity.
Right, it's so easy to thinkyourself into self-pity, but the
(51:32):
scary thing about it is it getscomfortable real quick.
Yeah a romantic.
And then when you're there, youknow it's like, wow, like I used
to think in early sobriety.
You know I'd say, boy, like twobottles of the golden nectar
would be nice and just sit inthe couch and chill out, you
know and would you put theallman brothers on?
Joe Van Wie (51:53):
yeah, what would
you put?
Jerry Pickard (51:57):
yeah the out.
What's their sign with?
Uh, sweet melissa, yeah, orcarrying the cross, that was
them right.
Yeah, yeah, or suffering withthe cross, or whatever.
But so that happens, but it'sthe way we think.
Joe Van Wie (52:14):
We're blinded down
a bit.
I want to maybe just probe onething.
You got to meet BF Skinnerright.
Yep, who's?
Jerry Pickard (52:23):
BF Skinner.
Bf Skinner is a behaviorist, awell-known behaviorist.
Joe Van Wie (52:29):
And he's kind of
basically, you meet him, psych
you have positive reinforcementand so on, to change your
behavior, and this is Psych 101.
He's kind of fundamental withclassic research.
You mentioned conditioningearlier.
That's why it popped in my headhow the hell did you meet BF
Skinner and get involved?
(52:49):
You were involved in some ofthe capturing of this data and
research of some of theexperiments.
Jerry Pickard (52:54):
Right, I was
teaching in Dover, new Jersey,
in special ed and Dr CarloRichel was a behaviorist who was
also teaching with me and hewas doing a study for a
psychology magazine, and BFSkinner was our mentor.
(53:16):
And what we were doing, we usedto have to ride the bus home
with our students.
So then they were unruly, andso on.
Then they were unruly and so on.
So we were trying a programwith eight-track tape players
that had just come out.
(53:36):
Then this was like in the early70s.
So we had a tape player in thebus and what we would do we
would play the music, but as anegative behavior happened, we
would pull the tape out.
Yeah, and we would hit.
I used to wear six golf watchesright To time To count the
(53:59):
behaviors like girl standing upright, girl screaming out right
and girl boy, girl, boy, girlleaving their seat and so on.
So we would count those and wedid that for a year, a year, one
year.
Joe Van Wie (54:18):
For the school year
and B of Skinner came.
Did he do the preparation?
No, no.
Jerry Pickard (54:23):
He came.
He would come in and see whatdata we had and so on, and show
us how to set it up and like forthe article and all that.
But he would come to our house.
You know, he would come to ourhouse on the weekends and what
was he like?
He was a good guy.
He was a little like I used tothink he was weird, but he had,
(54:44):
he sees him Right.
But everything, everything, onething about everything was a
behavior to him.
Yeah, you know, oh, yeah, youknow.
It was like, like, say, one dayI was, I bought Capoletti's
back here and I was cooking theCapoletti's in the chicken soup,
right, and he was going well,why did how come the water was
(55:09):
boiling?
Was it boiling enough?
And so you know what I mean.
So when do you put them in?
Why did you put them in at thattime?
Everything, every behavior was.
Why did you do that?
Why did you do that?
Joe Van Wie (55:21):
You know what his
real name was?
Burris Burris Frederick Skinner.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, reallystrange guy.
Harvard.
Jerry Pickard (55:29):
He was good,
though you know he was a nice
guy.
He's fundamental to yeah, buthe was a nice guy, but he was
out there you know, he was outthere, I used to ask him about,
like, what he thought about LSDand what did he think, Things
like that you know.
He said, well, those were justtheories you know, he was an
(55:54):
atheist.
The change of the mind fromtaking the chemical you know.
Joe Van Wie (55:59):
Well, that's the
funny thing, he didn't have
access.
There wasn't good data then.
But, you know it's not ahallucination, it's just a
change of perception and timing.
You know, if I have a fever,I'm having hallucinations and my
brain's getting detoxified thatI'm creating a manifestation.
But BF Skinner it's interesting,one of my favorite people that
(56:21):
study not behavioralism but AIand cognition would go back and
look at Skinner who's saying theenvironment conditions most
behaviors.
So he looks at it almost assoftware.
You, this is um yosha bach andyour brain is this hard drive.
It cultures the software youdownload, the conditioning and
(56:43):
out churns behaviors.
Where is the will in this?
Where is volition?
You know, and I think the stepsare still relevant in that kind
of dreadful outlook, which hasa ton of accuracy, that humans
could wake up.
You could wake up.
The real sense of self is thesame self you have and that's
(57:05):
why I feel connected to you.
Anytime I see in a room is thatwe're aware of an idea of Jerry
Pickard, I'm aware of an ideaof Joe Van Wee, but it's not me.
Who I am is connected to you.
We got a spirit or this idea ofawareness that is almost
universal, like it's.
It's, it's accessible to all ofus.
(57:26):
And I don't want to sound likeI'm not a religious person, I'm
not part of any, but I know Ishare that with you.
Sound like I'm not a religiousperson, I'm not part of any, but
I know I share that with youevery time I see you and I
always look forward to runninginto you.
Jerry Pickard (57:39):
And the basis of
all that is, joe, that you're
okay with yourself.
You know what I mean.
If you're not okay withyourself, you don't have that
spirit no, you don't, becauseyou can't give it away then you
know Well, jerry, you're anasset to this community and I
personally want to thank you.
Joe Van Wie (57:58):
I had a really
demoralizing relapse after some
period of sobriety.
When I came back that firstyear, I was really anxious, I
was really toxic, but I wasreally desperate.
I really wanted help and Ididn't know how to even talk at
meetings or make friends anymorepeople I even knew.
You were very kind to me downat that 9 am morning meeting and
(58:20):
it meant the world to me and Inever get to thank you enough.
You made me feel really welcomecoming back.
Thanks, buddy.
Well, I'd like to have you onagain.
Man, you want to grab somepizza?
I just saw pizza go by thewindow.
Jerry Pickard (58:36):
They dropped off
some pizza.
You know it's a pleasure beinghere and you know, just thank
God for those people that helpedme.
And you know, Bruce, and I haveall the pictures from Bruce.
I said to him one time, justthis last Bruce story right here
is I was taking a smoothie andthis guy, Dave, and a guy, Sam,
(59:06):
through the book, and the threeof them went to jail.
We were all on fourth steps andthe three of them went to jail.
We were all on fourth steps andthe three of them went to jail.
On friday, same friday, theygot, they were all dirty and
they had their blood teststhrough drug court and
everything.
And I said to bruce I said boy,I said he said all you could do
(59:28):
is, and he gave me myanniversary was coming up.
He gave me a picture and on theback it said that line in the
book don't be discouraged,there's someone out there
desperate enough that wants whatyou have to offer.
And he couldn't stop laughing.
You could see him right.
(59:49):
Well, he was a great man.
Joe Van Wie (59:52):
Yeah, he was.
I miss him often.
I think about him a lot here.
Jerry Pickard (59:55):
When he came
here right when he came here
people didn't like him becausehe did the big book, yeah, and
that's because none of them knewanything about the steps.
Joe Van Wie (01:00:08):
Let me tell you
something.
I was 16 when I came to AA.
I was in the nativity group.
I meet Bruce.
I was floundering.
After a year I had a sponsorgreat guy called him every day.
I couldn't tell him that Brucewas taking me through the steps.
Right, yeah, I know, or I'd getin trouble I'd be like
ostracized and Bruce saved mylife or I'd get in trouble, I'd
(01:00:32):
be like ostracized and Brucesaved my life.
Bruce was the only reason AAmade sense to me and Bruce was,
I think, the most formationalperson I've ever met.
Jerry Pickard (01:00:43):
He was like a
father to me since I was 16.
I told him when we were.
I said I was explaining.
I said, bruce, the connectionbetween the second, third, sixth
, seventh and tenth step rightand we were talking about that.
And the next day he comes intothe 7 am meeting and he gives me
(01:01:04):
a coffee cup.
That was his right, With thethird step printed on one side
and the seventh on the other.
Joe Van Wie (01:01:12):
Yeah, he was a
beautiful guy, right, he was
part of every like substantialpoint in my life.
I don't think there was ever atime I wasn't talking to him.
Even when I relapsed, I talkedto him every week at the house.
Jerry Pickard (01:01:30):
Well, sure.
Joe Van Wie (01:01:30):
He was my friend.
Jerry Pickard (01:01:32):
The same thing
happened here with Smoothie.
You know what I mean.
I learned that from Bruce.
I've been with Smoothie 20years now.
Joe Van Wie (01:01:40):
I love Smooth.
He's doing great.
Jerry Pickard (01:01:42):
Yeah, so you
know, the main thing is that the
example that he set for us, youknow it was real.
Joe Van Wie (01:01:53):
Yeah.
Jerry Pickard (01:01:54):
You know, and it
was meant for him to be in
Scranton, to come to Scranton, Ibelieve that I remember when he
was up in the nursing home andEric told me.
Eric said don't bring him, likehe was dying.
Then he said don't bring himany munchkins.
(01:02:14):
So I only bought 60.
Oh man, and I sat there and atethe 60 with him.
But that was cool, he was agood guy.
Joe Van Wie (01:02:30):
Yeah, I think about
him a lot, since I've had kids,
and I would just want to makehim proud that I was drinking
when he died.
He knew that and we weretalking about it on his deathbed
.
Jerry Pickard (01:02:42):
Up at our
meeting, right, we have a big
celebration in October, right,that we have to go up into the
church, like we have 14 guysthat celebrate and we have every
year we have everybody in thegroup in our group stand up.
(01:03:03):
Who has, like, how many peoplewere taken through the book by
Bruce, right, wow.
And then how many people sothose the Bruce through the book
by Bruce, right, wow.
And then how many people?
So those guys would stand upand then how many people were
taken through the book by anyone of these guys?
And they would stand up, andthen all of a sudden it's like
the whole room's up, you know,besides the parents and stuff
(01:03:25):
like that, but everybody,everybody has gone through the
steps because of him, bruce.
Yeah, you know we talked thetree.
You know the tree.
Joe Van Wie (01:03:38):
I was on his wall
on a tree.
I don't know if you've been inhis living room.
Jerry Pickard (01:03:43):
Yeah, up at the
Hotel German.
Joe Van Wie (01:03:46):
There's a picture
that he kept in his living room
of a guy on a cross hanging froma.
That was my Easter card to him.
Right, it was me.
Yeah, it was still friend, butthat's what I keep in my office
there.
Right there, I'll kind of endwith this Bruce who we're
talking about.
Anyone who's not familiar now.
(01:04:06):
And Bruce was a reallyinstrumental person in helping
people go through the steps inScranton for a couple of decades
in a way that was just foreignhere.
That was more about fundamentalAA and going through the steps.
But Bruce, his career.
He was a pretty remarkable,notable architect and some of
(01:04:30):
his designs include Tisch Schoolof the Arts at NYU, fordham Law
School, the Boulder and DenverColorado Museum, multiple ski
chalets all over the West Coast.
He was a highly desiredarchitect and what I have on my
wall in my office I'm pointingto, which you can't see, is the
original draft to redo the TischSchool of the Arts at NYU.
(01:04:55):
And that's one of Bruce's jobs,which he did, you know, a
really unbelievable job that'snotable all over the world in
the field.
But it was the Bob's TischSchool, cbs Broadcast School.
When Bruce redesigned it itbecame Tisch School of the Arts
at NYU that's the first draft ofit and he just scribbles all
(01:05:17):
over it to give it to me.
On one of my anniversaries Breaka leg, you're back on Broadway,
and that was when I moved backto New York.
He gave that to me as a gift.
I think of him a lot, so we'llmiss him.
So, jerry, do you want to getsome pizza?
It's getting late.
(01:05:37):
I got some pizza.
Well, that's another episode ofAll Better, all right, man,
thank you for having me.
I'd like to thank you forlistening to another episode of
All Better.
Thank you for listening toanother episode of All Better.
You can find us on allbetterfmor listen to us on Apple
Podcasts, Spotify, GooglePodcasts, Stitcher, iHeartRadio
(01:06:01):
and Alexa.
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Please like or subscribe to uson YouTube, Facebook, Instagram
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Looking forward to seeing youagain.
(01:06:23):
And remember, just becauseyou're sober doesn't mean you're
right.