Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello and thanks
again for listening to another
episode of All Better.
I'm your host, joe Van Wee.
Today's guest is anotherFellowship House alumnus, matt.
Today, matt and I discuss hisentry into recovery, the events
that led to treatment multipletimes, secular thought and 12
(00:25):
steps, and we discuss what thatjourney is and how you can be
there for the next agnostic, anatheist or even critical thinker
that wants to enter a communitydesperately and feels some of
the ideologies areinsurmountable.
Matt speaks about his ownexperience and I think you'll
(00:48):
find it interesting.
Let's meet Matt.
Here we are with Matt.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
The one and only.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Well, you were deemed
and I think I gave you this
nickname, atheist Matt, on yourarrival.
Yeah, I think so I might havebeen the only one calling you
Atheist Matt.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah, I don't recall
being called that too much, but
yeah, it's what I am.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
So we're going to get
to that your dark, sordid past
with non-belief.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
Oh yeah, my
sacrilegious self.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
But I thought it
would be great to catch up and
I'm really glad you came onbecause you were.
We also called you patient zero.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
And you're a first
graduate from Resonance PHP IOP.
You're a first graduate fromResidence PHP IOP, and it's been
a great year for me not only toget to know you but see what
you wanted out of recoveryWithout feeling that you were
(02:05):
doing anything that wasartificial, insincere or
untruthful, and I think we couldtalk a lot about that and how
you approach the 12 steps withyour sponsor, because for a lot
of people they wouldn't even gofurther and I think that would
have been a huge mistake.
I definitely think so.
Just maybe for a littlebackground where did you grow up
?
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I grew up in Redding,
pennsylvania.
I say Redding even though I wasmore into Exeter Township.
I say Redding because mostpeople don't know about Exeter
or where it is, so that's whereI grew up.
It was a suburb.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Yeah.
And did you have siblings?
What was it like growing upthere that you would maybe put
under the lens of your childhoodif there was anything that was
gearing you up for arelationship with alcohol?
Speaker 2 (03:05):
siblings.
I have my younger sister.
She's three years younger.
I have an older brother.
He's three years older, andthen I have an older sister.
She is seven years older thanme.
Me and my brother are the onlyones with the same father.
The home was kind ofdysfunctional.
I wouldn't say like it was likegrowing up I had any trauma or
anything, but it's definitelylike distressing a lot of time.
Um, my stepfather was like veryhard on us.
(03:28):
Um, when he came into thepicture like he wanted to, like
you know, make sure like wethought of him as the big man
you know, so like he would,especially with me and my
brother.
He would like nitpick at us alot.
He would talk down to us andlike come up with negative
nicknames and, um, it reallyreally hurt my self-esteem
really early on.
But my relationship with my momwas pretty close.
(03:51):
So I think it was pretty much50-50 on whether I would become
an addict or not.
Sure, and I think it's notreally anything genetic, it's
just the environment that I wasin.
Speaker 1 (04:04):
How old were you when
the stepfather arrived to set a
new authority in the house?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I was one, you were
one.
Yeah, he's the only fatherfigure I've ever known.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
It was authoritarian
kind of parenting style.
We've discussed that in ourpsychoeducation here.
We've discussed that in ourpsychoeducation here.
And the proof is like rightthere, authoritarian parenting
styles which come from apersonality, I mean, they trend
(04:39):
towards the receiver of thatauthoritarian relationship as
having an insecure attachmentstyle.
And there's a great medicationfor that that almost works for
some of us.
It's called whiskey.
When did you first encounterdrinking and why?
Speaker 2 (04:59):
I was 17 the first
time that I actually got drunk.
I had alcohol.
Before, when I was 16, it wasnew years.
Uh, my stepfather like put ashot and a drink and I had it.
Um, but that was like theextent of the drinking that
night.
The first time I got drunk, Iwas 17.
Um, I was with my best friend,um, we had his uncle, his
(05:20):
uncle's house to ourselves andwe had a bottle of pinnacle whip
Um.
And we had a bottle of pinnaclewhip um and we basically just
split it, we put it in coke, um,and we just had a good night.
I ain't got like nothing reallycrazy happened.
We were laughing over magazinesand we're listening to dave
massey's band.
Um, we're having a good time,um, and I remember, um, I like
(05:43):
lying on down on the couch.
I was about to pass out for thenight and my friend was in the
bathroom like vomiting into thetoilet and I remember thinking
like I'm good at this, you know,like he's vomiting, he's got
problems, but I'm all right.
That's where I began.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
For some.
I always felt there was afilm-like quality that the now
I'm on screen when I wasdrinking, like I felt online
awake alert, was this was this anight you planned with your
brother?
Was there a strategy?
And was 17 older for forinitially drinking in your area?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Um, I think 17 was
probably around the average age.
You know, I didn't, I didn'treally know too much, um like
about a lot of other people whenthey started drinking.
I just know, really, when Istarted drinking, I was like
planned, like we had planned itout.
Um, my, my best friend at thetime, like he was uh through a
(06:43):
lot of emotional difficulties.
He had just lost his aunt tocancer.
He wasn't feeling too great andwe wanted to do something to
make ourselves feel better.
So that's what we did.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
And for these first
17 years, I want to go back and
ask a pertinent question.
I think that would lead us intoour later discussion.
Did you grow up aroundreligious people or with any
religious education?
Speaker 2 (07:14):
No, not at all.
My family wasn't religious atall.
We didn't pray before dinner,we didn't go to church.
My parents never reallyoutspoke anything about their
religious beliefs whatsoever.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
When did you first
encounter an idea of, say,
either a creator, God, orfriends that were practicing a
culture or a lifestyle that wasdifferent than what you were
experiencing?
Speaker 2 (07:46):
The first time that I
heard about Jesus like I was in
first grade.
I was six years old and thisone girl like she drew a picture
of Jesus like above her houseand she was like this is Jesus,
this is who he is so like.
For a little while I saw he wasjust this random bearded dude
who lived above her house.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Oh really.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
But to be honest, I
don't really recall too much
Like when I first likeencountered religion as an
organization, like I think I waslike 13 or 14 when, like it
became apparent to me like mygrandmother on my mom's side,
you know, she believes in Godand she's not really a regular
churchgoer but she does havefaith, and then my older sister
(08:29):
got into it, I believe, andthat's really all the experience
I had in my teenage years.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Moving on.
When you had this firstexperience of drinking, how soon
or how long did it take fordrinking to cause consequences
in itself?
Speaker 2 (08:49):
uh, it didn't.
It didn't take long, um, when Iwas 18, um, I had opted to not
go to college.
I graduated high school, um, Iwas just working, um as a
dishwasher.
Um, and I was left to drink alot.
My brother would get me thealcohol because he was 21.
And like it left like I becomevery argumentative when I'm
(09:13):
under the influence and like itcaused a lot of dysfunction at
home from my end.
You know, I would just startarguing with people and just get
very riled up.
So that's very early on.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
I got problems from
it and what did you feel like
when you weren't drinking inthat period?
So that's a year into drinking,you're 18, you're an adult.
Um, what was the state of you?
How would you describe yourmind or your position or
well-being when you werecompletely sober?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Constant discontent
Like it.
Just nothing satisfied me.
You know, I got no pleasure outof music, out of watching a
movie, watching shows, hangingwith people I didn't like
anytime I was around anybody.
I just wanted either I wantedto drink with them or just drink
by myself.
You know, if you're not goingto drink with me, then why are
(10:05):
you here?
It became very all-consuming.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Where is music in
your life at this time?
Do you drink, listen to music?
Is there films?
Is there any place where you'rechecking out to a narrative
entertainment?
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, music like I
would drink and listen to music
a lot.
Entertainment yeah, Music, LikeI would drink and listen to
music a lot and before I starteddrinking, like I spent a lot of
time listening to music andit's a major outlet for me, you
know.
Allows me to process myemotions and just relax for the
day.
Speaker 1 (10:37):
Yeah, it's a.
It's the first accessibletherapy.
I was listening to a lot ofemotions by the time I was six.
I wasn't going to experiencetill I was 15, I was listening
to Brought Emotions by the timeI was six.
I wasn't going to experience ituntil I was 15, but I was
getting primed.
Yes, you were.
Yeah, 80s rock brother Can't gowrong.
So it's getting increasinglyharder to maintain a stable
(11:00):
relationship, even with asibling Drinking.
You have a constant kind offeeling of discontent, and
drinking only alleviates that.
And is there anything going onin your thought life, uh, that
you would describe as ruminationor resentment of what should
have happened or could havehappened, or what you want was
(11:23):
not accessible?
And then, how did that relateto your drinking?
Was it still relieving thatkind of torment?
Speaker 2 (11:32):
I would say the
drinking fed the resentful
narrative.
I had a lot of resentmenttowards my family.
I felt mistreated growing up.
I felt like I basically had achip on my shoulder and I wanted
to blame everyone around me,particularly my parents, for the
fact that I hadn't lived up totheir expectations.
(11:54):
I hadn't lived up to myexpectations.
You know, I didn't go tocollege, I was just.
You know, for a while I wasworking as a dishwasher.
Then I wasn't working at all, Iwas just drinking and getting
high and just wasting my life.
And drinking helped to fuelthat negative narrative where it
(12:15):
wasn't my fault, it waseveryone else's fault and it
kind of really was making ithard for me to see that it's my
responsibility to clean myselfup.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
It is hard,
especially at 18.
If it's romantic at first, Idon't know if he could relate to
this, this idea that you're thevictim.
I mean you could listen to oneout of three Bruce Springsteen
songs and feel like the who he'sdescribing if you're a good
drunk it.
Was it romantic initially, theidea of being the victim of?
Speaker 2 (12:48):
uh, mistreatment, uh,
not given enough chances, this
locked in my fate now yeah,there's definitely a lot of
romanticization that goes withit, like it became an identity,
to be honest, and I meannowadays I look back on it and
it kind of makes me cringe.
But back then, like victimhoodwas kind of my main identifier.
(13:12):
I just felt like I was screwedover by the world and I was owed
so much more.
You know, I had a sense ofentitlement that really got in
my way and it definitelydefinitely gave me a basis on
how to look at myself.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Yeah, did you know?
Other people felt this way.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah, I mean somewhat
, but mostly I was more
concerned with myself.
Sure, I definitely felt alonewith how I felt and with my
addiction.
I didn't feel like there wasanyone around me who was on the
level that I was, except.
I mean, like my brother, he hasaddictive problems and he
(13:56):
definitely deals with resentmentin the same way that a lot of
addicts do.
Because, like, growing up likehe dealt with a lot of
mistreatment, like before mystepfather came into the picture
, like he, my brother, wasabused a lot by my biological
father and then from mybiological father to my
stepfather and then, you know,he got into harder drugs when he
(14:17):
was like 16, 17.
And I got to watch it like eataway at him.
And I got to watch it like eataway at him and it became like a
good excuse for myself, likewatching him go through like
psychotic episodes and I wouldbe like, well, I'm not that bad,
I don't need to change.
Yeah, you know so at least withhim I understood like he was
suffering too, but I felt alittle different.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Yeah, it must be
strange, with all the stuff
you've experienced andunderstand, especially in the
last year.
Looking back at the the, thepain he was experiencing, let's
see it gets lonely, it's a, it'sreal disconnection.
When did the consequencesbecome apparent?
(15:03):
That alcohol was the problemand you?
You had the first considerationthat you may have what we could
call alcoholism, but reallysubstance use disorder.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
The first time that I
really admitted alcohol itself
was a problem for me was when Iturned 21.
Up until that point I had beengoing to therapy and my
therapist kept trying to nudgeme to look at my drinking and be
like, yeah, you, you need tostay sober, you should go to go
to meetings, like she gave me alist of AA meetings and I was
(15:40):
just like no, no, I don't, Idon't need that, I'm all right,
I'm just, I'm depressed, I'manxious.
You know, like I, the drinkingis not causing my mental illness
.
My mental illness is causing myalcoholism.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
You know, and it's
crazy, I, if I can pause you
right there so you get theseconditions and someone could
tell you if you have depressionand anxiety.
I'm not saying they're untrue,but what are they describing?
Like what did you think now youhave?
Like what would be causing theanxiety?
What would be causingdepression is Is it anatomical?
(16:11):
Is it beyond volition, is itbeyond will?
Does it exist?
It's weird Some people get thisinitial relief that they got.
I have ADD.
I have clinical depression.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Oh Jesus, I knew
something was wrong.
Speaker 1 (16:26):
But now what?
What does that diagnosis mean?
I think many people that get areally quick diagnosis, maybe
not in depth psychoanalytictherapy or a psychoeducation for
30 or 40 days, five days a week, they don't know what that is.
(16:47):
They just feel relief like, oh,I could hang my coat on this,
this term, this concept, butit's not something you could
scan the brain and say, oh,that's, that's, that's exactly
the thought that's causing that,that's the memories, like you
could see the differences of howa brain's functioning.
But what, what did it mean toyou then to say I, I have
(17:11):
anxiety, I have depression.
Speaker 2 (17:16):
What did you think
that encompassed?
I think it just encompassed mygeneral disaffection with life.
It encompassed the fear that Ifelt on a daily basis, just like
going to the store and tryingto buy things, constantly
worrying about what people werethinking of me, when in those
sorts of situations nobody'sthinking of me.
We're just trying to get whatwe want and go home like that.
(17:36):
But as far as like what, whatthose terms were to me, like for
for me, I use those terms as anexcuse.
To be honest, I would, I wouldbe like I'm depressed, I'm
anxious.
This is why I drink.
Honest, I would, I would belike I'm depressed, I'm anxious.
(17:56):
This is why I drink.
I would look at my emotions andmy experiences and feel like I
am vindicated in allowing myselfto drink myself into, you know,
into vomiting into toilet andjust being a waste of a human
being, rather than like tryingto make changes in my life.
You know I am not apsychologist, I'm not a
psychiatrist, but I know for me,like the deal was depression
(18:20):
and anxiety.
I need to make changes in mylife.
And I'm not saying likealcoholism is the sole cause of
my depression and my anxiety,but like the life choices I've
made.
You know I felt like a failure.
I, you know, didn't have anydirection in life and I didn't
have many social connections.
And when I'm just left to wasteaway, of course I'm going to be
(18:42):
depressed and of course I'mgoing to be anxious, I'm going
to worry about the futurebecause I'm not doing anything
to prepare for it.
I'm just drinking my life away.
And for me to deal with thosethings?
No, I needed to make changesand you know, in the past year
and a half, I have and to behonest, like day to day now,
being sober and having made thechanges that I needed to make,
(19:04):
like I don't really deal withmuch depression anymore.
I deal with anxiety, but like Ican, I could walk through it.
Now I can actually work on it,rather than being frozen by it.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
That's amazing to
hear people describe that Cause.
Sometimes you could be at asupport group or recovery
community and it's like binaryEverything was horrible, that's
over everything, great Shiny.
And I love listening to youspeak because there's the
authenticity of saying I've hadanxiety the last year and I have
(19:38):
not been drunk and I'm okay.
Depression's decreased Anxietystill arrives, but you're
recognizing it as acommunication.
An internal communication isgoing on.
What am I ignoring, what am Imisperceiving?
Like these are the questionsI've heard you describe it
before.
(19:58):
You kind of ask yourself Ithink that's a more authentic
way to present to, especially anewcomer.
We're not selling likeCadillacs.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
No, we're not selling
sunshine and rainbows.
Yeah, cadillacs.
No, we're not selling sunshineand rainbows, yeah so when did
you first?
Speaker 1 (20:16):
uh, you sought
therapy.
We kind of what?
What produced that?
How did you end up in therapy?
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Um, I went to therapy
because, um, when I was 19, my
best buddy was, uh, gettingready to go to the Marines.
He was going to go to boot camp.
We had a going away party forhim and I got drunk at that
party, like very drunk, likeblackout drunk, and I got
physical at the party, like meand him got in a fight and to
this day, like I really don't, Idon't remember why, I don't
know what happened.
(20:50):
We're playing cards againsthumanity, that's all I know.
I love that game, but I don'tremember why.
I don't know what happened.
We were playing cards againsthumanity, that's all I know.
I love that game, but I don'tlove that time.
And I was, like you know, sohorrified by what I had done the
morning after.
I was like, you know, there'ssomething wrong with me.
But even then, like I didn'tthink I had alcoholism, I didn't
think I was an addict, I justsaw it.
(21:15):
You know, I need you to go totherapy now.
You know just what people do.
Um, so that's that's why Istarted doing oh, and you're not
looking at alcohol.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
When did you begin to
look at?
Maybe, if I was going toproceed in any meaningful
therapy, can I do it whiledrinking in the way you were
drinking when?
When did that converge, thatconflict kind of crash?
Speaker 2 (21:37):
um, well, when I
first started going to therapy,
um, like, I did stay sober forabout four or five months, um,
and then after a little while,like that was me just doing the
therapy like it wasn't.
You know.
It know it's not, it's notenough, it's not fixing the
quote unquote spiritual maladythat I felt in my life.
It's just like the way Itreated it.
(21:59):
I was just going there, whiningabout my life and then not
doing anything to change it.
Um, I, I used it as anemotional dump.
So after four or five months Idid start drinking again and
then I remember like I would, Iwould go to therapy.
I'll be like, I'll bring like alittle list.
Now I'd be like these are thepros of drinking and these are
the cons of drinking.
(22:19):
Do you notice that there aremore pros and they're like
you're insane.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Like, well, they're,
probably, they, probably.
It makes sense to me becauseit's it's.
It's a profound medication fora condition that precedes
drinking.
Now you know I think you can'tstate it enough for people that
are are family members beingtormented by this?
Why won't he be fine if he justdoesn't drink?
He was sober for a year.
That rehab didn't work.
(22:44):
These are common statements.
I could find myself making themsomeday, because it was just
this.
The answer is reallycounterintuitive that drinking
rises up to be a solution tosomething else.
That's wrong, and you havealready been describing it.
That's what I describe in mystory.
(23:05):
So you get to experience fivemonths of not drinking, and it
tells us one thing Alcohol isnot the problem.
Someone took away your solution.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Yep, pretty much.
I was just the same person,just not drinking, and my
therapist did point that out.
She was like you know, you'rebasically just going about your
day the same way you would whenyou're drunk you go to work, you
go home, you stay there and youdon't do anything, and that's
the condition that precedesdrinking.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Yeah, when did you
learn that?
How did you end up in treatment?
Was there events or an event?
Speaker 2 (23:47):
My first time in
treatment.
I turned 21.
My birthday is in August and Iwas in there by.
I was in treatment by the endof September because I got drunk
at home and then I got into anargument with my parents.
Like I like basically likeberated them for like two hours
because, like you know, I can'tlook at myself, so let's look at
(24:08):
you.
And then I got into a fightwith my stepfather in the
morning, you know, just justlike when I was 19,.
Like I was again horrified bywhat I had done and I felt like,
well, you know, I got to, gotto do something different now.
You know, I got to go totreatment or something like that
.
So that's what I did.
(24:30):
I went to Pyramid in um and Iwas there for like three weeks
and then they brought me home Umand I started drinking again
like three to six weeks or soafter, after I left because, uh,
to be honest, like I did itmostly for posterity, Like you
know, I I had hurt my family alot and they needed to see me do
(24:51):
something as a consequence forthe actions that I had taken
against them and something toshow like actual remorse, which
I did feel, but like, did Iactually want to address the
issue that it caused it?
No, no, I didn't want to getsober, I just wanted to make it
look like I wanted to change.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
So that was my first
and did you think you could ever
return to successful drinkingor you needed enough space, like
because you there's no longgame in that kind of position
like or at least being describedso you'd get space.
And I've done this, you getspace.
There's a sincerity.
I know I've affected people orconsequences are going to be so
(25:36):
self-preservation kind of takesover in some scenarios, like
you'd be without a home, youcould be without employment, so
this fear could sober you up fora bit.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yep.
But then it runs out yeah, itdoes, and after a while I did
think I could.
Yeah, it does.
And I, after a while you know Ido I did think like I could go
back to it successfully.
You know, like it's, it's verymuch a bait and switch, it's
it's a catch 22.
It's like I, I would get sober,like after my first time.
I got sober for a few weeks andthen you know, I would just,
(26:09):
I'll be like you know what thecrisis is averted.
We're good, you know I wouldjust.
I'll be like you know what thecrisis is averted.
We're good.
You know, it was just a flukeLike and a lot of people can
relate to that where it's likewe, we suffer these consequences
, as in, somehow we forget howmuch we had hurt ourselves and
the people around us, and we'relike you know what.
It's OK, all right, it was justa mistake.
I've learned my lesson, I cancontrol it now.
(26:31):
I've learned my lesson, I cancontrol it now.
And, yeah, that that is not notwhat happened at all.
I'll go back to it and then,slowly but surely, we'll just
progress and get worse andballoon and blow and just you
know you get what it's like.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
Yeah, and how
desperate did this become before
you surrendered to the ideathat there is no way forward
without sobriety?
Or was that that took a littlewhile?
Right, that was a slow event.
It wasn't immediate.
How would you describe it?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Oh, it was horrifying
.
I didn't go to treatment againfor another four years.
This last time around, I didn'tgo until I was 25.
Years this last time around, Ididn't go till I was 25.
So I spent four years on andoff with alcohol, on my own and
constantly failing to stay sober, and in the end it's just like
(27:24):
my worst nightmare came true.
You know like in the end I wasliving at home with my mom, just
my mom.
My stepfather left, my youngersister had left, my brother was
out living in a shelter and ourhouse is basically falling apart
.
It's like a literal metaphorfor the state of our family.
We got mold in the ceiling,it's leaking, our heater isn't
(27:45):
working.
The place is just an absolutemess.
And then we got an evictionnotice because the owner of the
place wanted to sell it off.
The guy was retiring, he wantedsomething to live off of and we
pretty soon I wouldn't haveanywhere to go and I was
basically at a dead end.
(28:05):
I was literally brokenphysically, mentally and
spiritually.
I had hurt my back at work.
I was limping around, I wasn'tsleeping.
Spiritually, I had hurt my backat work, I was limping around,
I wasn't sleeping.
Um and I.
I had no choice but to admityeah, I gotta, I gotta go to
treatment again and I gottaactually like do this, like I
gotta stay sober.
Like before I went to treatment, like I basically like cried
for two weeks, just I called outof work and just drank myself
(28:28):
into passing out every day andcrying and going around my house
by myself just thinking aboutthe good times, the bad times,
and it was a very desperate time.
But even when I went to rehab,like I was still like dead set.
I'm like I was dead set ongetting sober, but I was dead
set on getting sober without AA,you know.
And that was like a big reasonwhy I didn't want to go to
(28:51):
treatment after my firstexperience with rehab, because I
was like they're just going toshove aa down my throat how
would you like if you had todescribe a from the mindset you
had then?
Speaker 1 (29:01):
what did you think?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
a was that you were
resisting like a lot like a cult
man.
That's pretty much how Ithought about it.
I saw it.
It was um ignorance, um, youknow bliss and ignorance and
we're like, yeah, we're exposedbecause people aren't
acknowledging the reality supercrazy now, yeah, just better
(29:23):
exactly have some of ourkool-aid, um.
But yeah, and it's a verynarrow-minded view, um, that I
had because all I could focus onwas the God problem and like I
would look down on people whobelieved in that when, really
honestly, like I might be theone who's lacking something here
, not not people who actuallybelieve in their higher power.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
It's hard.
Sometimes you can feeloutnumbered by people who are,
well that you know, don't wantto have a debate, don't want to
have some intellectual approach,and that may not happen or a
meeting doesn't seem currentlythe venue for this discussion.
But, man, some of them shouldbe, because this is the
(30:09):
discussion, steps one and twofor a guy especially of
non-belief, and maybe we couldbegin to.
I'll table it for now.
Well, let's go to a literatureand the founders.
This was the discussion they arehaving for five chapters in the
book Alcoholics Anonymous, andmany of them were not only
(30:32):
atheists, predominantly agnostic.
A collapsed faith, a cynicism,the rise of evolution.
You're talking about a worldand a culture that didn't have
women.
We're only voting for eightyears.
That's the other half of ourspecies.
A puritanical, calvinisticapproach to not only law but
(30:55):
culture by prohibition, the waywe approached charity and social
services, which is create humandignity.
We're driven by Calvinisticideas that you know they were
cruel.
They were cruel and many ofthem did more harm, disempowered
(31:19):
and cruelly made to subscribeor be coerced into religious
narratives that had no value tothem, just wanting lunch.
So we I knew you were thirstyfor that, but I have that
discussion of you still were.
(31:39):
But let's, we'll come to it.
How do, how do we?
Let's just build up to where wemet.
We got to talk about this allright, um.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
So I went to
treatment uh, march 2023, um, or
more like the like, yet rightat the end of february 2023, but
like march 1st is my sobrietydate, um, and I went to
clearbrook and from clearbrook Iwent to Mountain's Edge while
Joe Cain was still clinicaldirector, and then from there I
(32:09):
came here to Oliphant House,which is where I met you, and I
remember, before I was leavingMountain's Edge, I was calling
you like every other day, beinglike you still got room right,
like we're good, right of roomright, like we're good, right,
um, and even like, as I was, uh,uh, coming here and moving in,
(32:30):
like I still was really like upin arms about uh, doing aa, um,
but like you're the one whoconvinced me I could do it,
because you know you're, um,you're an atheist as well, um,
and I was like, well, at thispoint I really don't have an
argument.
You like my higher powerdoesn't have to be God.
You know it really doesn't.
It could be the program itself,the group itself, concepts like
(32:52):
hope and face, curiosity,curiosity.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Novelty,
transcendence,
self-actualization Exactly thiscould be a question mark and I
think even a question mark couldput you on a really vigorous
path for adventure and sincerity.
But I like how you note itMountain's Edge and you note it.
Joe Cain Yep, and he's been onthe show.
(33:17):
He's a dear friend.
I consider him a mentor beyonda friend, and I don't mind
flattering him any chance I getbecause he's special and the
mountain's edge was very special.
And if Joe was at a place, youknow some basic stuff.
Clinically, non AA things aregoing to happen.
(33:38):
If someone completes thatprogram they're going to have an
understanding of a disorder, aconcept of the disorder, are
they committing to an idea ofsobriety and what the
maintenance of that sobrietywould have to entail.
Everyone who ever arrived fromthere after you had that basic
(34:00):
foundation.
So they're really reallystarting a level of care that we
started.
It's called PHP, partialhospitalization.
It's hard to have a mixedpopulation where some people are
where you were at when youarrived and other people are
still in their first week oftreatment, even after 30, 40
days in inpatient.
I'm still teaching them what adisorder is and I know you've
(34:22):
clearly understood that thatcould prove to be challenging
until we're split in groups.
I was so happy you calledbecause first we got into a
discussion.
You're an atheist.
I'm like, yes, I'm going totell you why and you might share
the sentiment.
Now, I don't know, I work thesteps, atheist, I get to step
(34:44):
three.
I don't know, I work the stepsAtheist, I get to step three.
I don't want to be insincere, Ijust take this position.
I could be wrong.
I wasn't presuming what couldbe right, I'm just saying I
could be wrong.
And what being wrong is thereis an entity that's a prime
mover, involved in human affairsor not.
I didn't sign up for all that.
(35:05):
I don't know what's happening.
I know I'm probably not thesource of reality.
I was very materialistic in thissense.
I couldn't see anything beyondmatter.
There's concepts humans couldhold that don't seem
materialized.
But it just seemed dreadful.
The way I saw life evolution.
(35:26):
It looks cynical, cruel, like amistake.
We're applying meaning like inan ad hoc way.
It's not there to be found.
Yeah, that's frightening whenyou're dying of alcoholism and I
was so fucking lonely, likeinternally, and I could not
connect with people I loved,like I just felt like a freak
(35:49):
and when you called it was.
It's why I'm doing this,because coming back to A was was
a really.
I was walking, walking a tightwire, and I met a great guy that
didn't give a shit what Ibelieved in.
He was going to get me throughthe steps because I'm not here
to I don't care what you can yousay this, I said, and sincerely
I said, yeah, he didn'tbrowbeat me, it was fine, let's
(36:09):
move on.
He goes.
Are you willing to believe?
You don't understand reality?
I said, yeah, that was myspirit.
That started my spiritual,spiritual awakening.
We had that discussion thenight.
You called and we talked everyday.
Did you not think that was that?
That was the bars, that low inAA Was your.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
No, I didn't think it
was.
I thought like he absolutelyhad to believe.
Like you know, everybody hastheir own understanding of God,
but it has to be anunderstanding of a God you know
that's pretty arrogant.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
You're going to
understand it.
An infinite strike, whateveryou're describing as this
infinite designer.
I always chuckle because Goddoesn't even have to be complex,
it could be just.
You know, you could see.
The big bang doesn't seemcomplex, it's the spreading of
something.
Who says God's even the design.
They don't have any thingswe've designed abandoned and
(37:02):
they grew into their own kind ofthings.
Ai's doing that.
We don't even know how to fixit.
We don't even know how it works.
We created it.
Speaker 2 (37:11):
Yep, yeah, sometimes
I do think it's like just like a
little audacious to be likewhat's the creator of the
universe?
It's like how can I, as like I,as a temporal mortal,
understand something like that?
You know what I'm saying.
It's something that's supposedto be beyond me.
But sometimes I do view thatview as short-sighted and at
(37:36):
this rate in time, like you said, I just have to have the
understanding that, with mybelief that there is no God, I
could be wrong.
You know, I could very much bewrong.
I don't know that.
I don't know a lot of things.
There is much more that I don'tknow than I do know.
I can tell you that andhonestly, that is a very
beautiful thing, because there'salways something to learn each
(37:59):
and every day.
I don't know everything, andthat helps give a purpose to
life.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Yeah, I think
consciousness is special and I
think connection is special.
I believe in things throughfaith, even though it wasn't God
, and I really like how weagnostics.
When I was reading it, I saw itin a new light, because now I'm
40, getting sober again, 39,and they make this argument
(38:26):
about the wright brothers.
And the wright brothers end uptaking flight, and you could go
through this list.
Did all flights have failedbefore that did all this?
Why a journalist wouldn't writeit?
Did professor langley's flyingmachine fall into the Potomac?
Yes, you could say yes, so youcould take a critical mind.
(38:46):
Answer, in all probability,these questions Don't print that
the Wright Brothers flew this.
We weren't there, no one wasthere.
This is really improbable thatit happened and you would be
following the laws of science orat least some kind of method of
review, and you're wrong.
And so their childlike faith tohave a machine fly.
(39:09):
I don't know it caught me thistime.
The words I always resist iswhen it got heavy, when it was
like God either is or isn't.
What's your choice to be?
And so to take this loaded wordGod, I don't tell people what
God is or what he isn't.
I let them have theirexperience and when I've just
(39:33):
followed the procedures of thebook in this really mysterious
way, now we can read a 90 yearold book together it doesn't
seem relevant what I believe orthat person believes.
If we're taking the actionsincerely, with an open mind
open minds, not subscribing usto any ideology and the book's
telling you, all you have tohave is a willingness to begin,
(39:56):
the same results happen for alot of us.
We don't drink.
We reconnect, make amends, weexplore spiritual ideas.
Spiritual to me is evolution.
Spiritual is the unknown ofhistory.
It's the speculation of aninteresting future social
exchange to protect otherpeople's dignity.
(40:17):
That's spiritual.
I thought spirituality to me.
You know I grew up Catholic.
It had to be some kind ofstrange Da Vinci riddle.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
Yeah, something you
can't decipher.
You got to, like, put all thesepuzzle pieces together.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
So are you listening
for people like that in the
recovery community so you canconnect with them now?
Speaker 2 (40:41):
I do.
When I listen to people'sshares I'm like, did I believe
what I believe?
But, to be honest, it isn't allthat common in the rooms so so
far I haven't really made anymeaningful connections with
people who are also atheists.
So far, connections with peoplewho are also atheists so far,
(41:04):
most of the people like.
One thing that I've gottenthrough giving AA a shot is,
like you know, practicingtolerance and understanding that
, like, people are going to havedifferent beliefs than me and
that's absolutely okay.
You know, like a lot of my likegood AA buddies, like they, you
know they have a belief in, uh,in a God, um, and that's,
(41:25):
that's okay, that's awesome.
Like you know, I still getalong with them and they still
have many insights that I myselfdon't get.
Yeah, um, how do you?
Speaker 1 (41:33):
practice or explore
or feed what you could deem the
word.
If you want to take a secularapproach to spirituality, um,
sam Harris wrote a.
You want to take a secularapproach to spirituality?
Sam Harris wrote anunbelievable book called
Spirituality, and it's fornonbelievers or secular people.
How do you practice step 11?
How do you explore that side tokeep your curiosity growing on
(42:02):
moral or spiritual practicesthat give you a different
perspective on life, that almostfights off the discontent that
lies in wait for us?
If we're not connected topeople with these principles,
how do you practice that?
Speaker 2 (42:19):
Well, I'm not much in
the way of prayer and
meditation, but it's mostly justthrough action and trying like.
(42:40):
Spirituality to me is mostlyjust connection to other people,
knowing what my place in theuniverse is and acting on a sort
of purpose.
And right now my main realpurpose is kind of just helping
other alcoholics, um, being asort of example for them to
follow.
Um, I'm not really much of alike, I'm not really good at
telling my own story, but likeyou know, I can.
You know, it's just I can.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
I disagree.
Speaker 2 (42:58):
Um, I can show people
, uh, what, what, what life can
be like, and that's pretty muchwhat it is for me.
That's how I practice.
That stuff is going to the samemeetings every week.
Being a part of that meeting,like I go, one of my favorite
meetings is take it to thefourth dimension.
(43:19):
You know, I'll go early, I'llhelp set up, I'll do coffee,
I'll chair, I'll help clean upat the end.
Um, and you know, while I'm notlike sitting down and
meditating, you know I'm notthinking about my problems when
I'm doing that stuff.
I'm literally just in themoment and enjoying my time with
the other people there.
Um, I'm experiencing connectionand I'm experiencing a purpose,
(43:42):
and that is what matters to me.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
What was it like for
you?
Because we do approaches tomeditation here, it's been past
and secular.
What was that experience likefor you?
Because we did it for months.
We did formal practices onSundays with our retreats, you
know, in all my groups.
After my process group I liketo do a 10-minute kind of
grounding.
(44:06):
Where are you?
Where's the contents of yourmind?
Can you just look at them in away that precedes the emotion of
them?
What was that experience likefor you?
Speaker 2 (44:22):
I did like our
retreats, doing our meditation,
especially like going up toPeter Amato's place I forget the
name of it Inner Harmony.
Yes, that place I did like it.
It was a good experience.
But, like, as far as likeactual meditation goes, like I I
(44:43):
struggle with sitting, stillman, and I, I I guess my mind is
just very unruly and I haven'tpracticed a lot, but like I just
go off and daydream a lot.
When I do it, like I'm just, uh,I used to want to be a writer
and like sometimes I still like,uh, when I'm just like left to
be up in my brain, I'm like, oh,that'd be a cool story, oh,
that'd be funny to write, orsomething like that.
(45:05):
But like I'm not actually likeclearing my mind to to find an
inner harmony.
You know, I'm just off in la laland and I I guess it's it's a
way where, like I'm lacking inmy program, you know, like I am
not a saint and it, you knowit's something that I slack on.
(45:27):
It's not something that I'vetaken very seriously, although I
do.
I did appreciate theopportunities that you gave us
to go to inner harmony and doand practice our meditation Like
it's, you know, not not everyday that you get to go up to
this beautiful mountain and, andyou know, stare at this big
Buddha statue and, just you know, also get like a lecture about
the steps and things like thatfrom a Buddhist perspective.
(45:49):
Yeah, like it's definitely anovel experience, but that's
pretty much my take onmeditation.
It's just I'm undisciplined.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
There's been a lot of
changes at Fellowship House.
We were building the planewhile we were flying it.
We were here and we were doingit in a really measured and
scaled way.
We knew what was going to bearriving next.
Um, what do you think the mostmemorable aspects of being here
is, and what do you think wecould improve of what we were
(46:23):
doing here?
Speaker 2 (46:25):
My most memorable
experience is my transition from
Oliphant into Green Ridge andbeing one of the first people in
that house me and Tim Kalpin,the first two people in that
house and like watching it growand people like populate the
rooms and like essentially likebeing helping to be an example
(46:48):
for all our people, being likewell, this is how we do things
here.
These are the meetings here.
You know you need to go to thestore, I'll take you to that
store and just being able tolive with a community of people
that like I relate to, likethere's not any like one
specific instance that likestands out as the most memorable
thing.
But those early days where wewere just getting things off the
(47:11):
ground were great, werememorable, and I am very happy.
I was very nervous when we hadthat news and the news.
People ask us questions andthings.
Oh, that's right.
Yeah, I remember for the grandopening, but as far as improving
things goes, to be honest, theway things are, you're really
(47:34):
spot on.
You got a tech there to helppeople, you got a van to help
those without transportation getto where they need to go and
you have a house captain,sergeant in arms yeah, sergeant
in arms.
I'm not sure who the housecaptain is now that Mike left
(47:55):
but it's Dylan, dylan, yeah,d-dog.
Oh, wow, all right, she's, she's, she's coming up the ladder,
yeah, but yeah, I mean, and now,like the, the tours are like
definitely segregating, Likepeople know what they need to do
and you have all sorts ofmeeting opportunities.
(48:16):
So, to be honest, like I, Idon't really know what else you
could do.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Like to be honest,
it's a very we'll find out,
cause I listen.
I I ask you guys cause, likeyou, I can forget, like what am
I missing?
Cause I'll just look at what'sworking.
So I always try to ask the sameones, not the guy that just
came in.
Yeah the sane ones, not the guythat just came in the veterans.
(48:42):
Yeah, I need everything, butyeah, we had a really I hate
using the word luck, but thefirst year was really gelled and
I think it was because we allsat down the team and the
promise I made to you guys wasthat we were going to have high
(49:04):
willingness here and that's whatI was screening for for the
first entry of the year and forour lot of treatment, especially
inpatient.
But for us to make that work inthe first year it was the bar
(49:26):
had to be set there and beingaround all every floor was a guy
who wanted to get sober Atevery different level of
severity with an addiction.
They're now in the PHPexperience and you guys got each
other well on the off hours itwasn't.
People were doing things toproduce and keep and build
(49:50):
rituals for recovery.
Um, I was exciting to watch man.
Speaker 2 (49:56):
Yeah that was
exciting to be a part of it.
You know, it's just, I feltlike it was like a grassroots
movement blossoming um, and thatthat is one thing I was very
grateful for was being in thecommunity of full people who
wanted to stay sober.
You know, we didn't have manyquote-unquote bad eggs.
You know, like we, a lot of us,were like this is this is our
(50:17):
way of life.
You know, we we helped get eachother to meetings.
We helped each other with oursteps, as in if any one of us
had a question about a step wehadn't done and one of us had
already done it, we couldsuggest what we should do, and
also just having people to talkto.
Speaker 1 (50:39):
It could be alarming
at first, when, on the second
week, when we shave your head umand then brand you yeah, we
address your uniform, number six.
Yeah, we were very fortunate.
I I'm really glad, uh, younumber one man, because that was
(51:01):
my position.
I struggled.
Step four wasn't hard for me.
I was ready to start cleaningup the past and some of it was
hard, but it wasn't as hard forme as step two and I forgot a
lot about AA's history and wegot to talk about that.
Those last two years.
Hank P, atheist, helped get thebook published, brought it out
(51:21):
to San Francisco Bill's ownwords, you know, and his
admiration for his grandfather,you know.
On his dying bed was bitchingabout the church and who the
hell are they to tell me what todo?
And who the hell are they totell me what to do?
He later goes on to say, youknow, by the time he's ready to
(51:46):
get sober and where hisaddiction left him, he's now a
World War I vet, withoutquestion.
He has PTSD.
How long this is active,aggravated by his drinking.
He has an insecure attachmentstyle, no bonding, feels
abandonment.
He's raised by his grandparentsas unbridled anxiety he first
tries to treat with his ambition, as you see in his own
(52:11):
descriptions, and you're tellinghim God, he's coming to.
You know, it was his friend, sothat's the softer blow's abby
thatcher.
He's like why don't you choosea god of your own conception?
Because when people would talkabout god that was loving and
personal to him, what would billdo?
He would, he would bristle withantagonism, and I think that's
what you.
(52:31):
You were like.
I saw your eyes open.
You're like who did?
Speaker 2 (52:35):
I'm like the writer
of this book I definitely,
definitely, bristled withantagonism many times I was like
God's the solution, but overtime I've grown to tolerate it
and it's a good principle topractice and I had to have
(52:56):
openness.
There's a reason why honesty,openness and willingness is how
we do it.
I needed to be willing to admitthat the way I'm thinking, the
way I'm doing things, is nothelping me and I need to try
something different.
I need to try something that'scompletely radical to me and you
helped me see that that was AA.
(53:16):
It was, honestly, one of thebest decisions I made and I
truly feel lucky that, like notonly that I came here, but, like
you, you were the one runningthis place and I got to meet you
.
Speaker 1 (53:29):
you know like it's an
opportunity of a lifetime I
always heard a guy say uh, once,anytime you see the word God on
a literature and recoverycommunities and you have a
problem with it, cross it out,put love.
If you have a problem with love, I can't help it.
There's something somethingdeeper.
Yeah.
(53:50):
So, man, I'm glad you stoppedby, um, and I look forward to
seeing you at the house.
Thanks for stopping in thereand saying hi to the guys.
Let them know that life I mean,that was a blink of an eye
Life's waiting for all of us.
The rituals we're building inthat house in that year give you
the resilience to have the lifeyou want.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
Exactly and I
definitely think like if I had
like skipped the sober housesomehow and like gone and lived
elsewhere, like reintegratedimmediately back into society
without any sort of supportnetwork, I would have drank very
easily, like I'm definitelysober today because of the
habits and coping mechanisms Ipicked up at a fellowship house.
(54:36):
You know I learned to live adifferent way of life and it
definitely prepared me for thelong, long, hopefully enjoyable
road ahead.
Speaker 1 (54:45):
Yeah, I see that.
Well, brother, you stillsmoking cigs?
Oh yeah, all right, let's hitthe porch.
Oh yes, I'd like to thank youfor listening to another episode
of All Better.
You can find us on allbetterfmor listen to us on Apple
(55:08):
Podcasts, spotify, googlePodcasts, stitcher, iheartradio
and Alexa.
Special thanks to our producer,john Edwards, and engineering
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Please like or subscribe to uson YouTube, facebook, instagram
or Twitter, and, if you're not,on social media, you're awesome.
(55:31):
Looking forward to seeing youagain.
And remember, just becauseyou're sober doesn't mean you're
right.