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October 28, 2023 • 70 mins

Have you ever wondered how the cultural chaos of the 60s and 70s molded the society we live in today? Join me and my enigmatic guest, Elaine Donly, as we journey through her personal history and explore the deep-seated impact of a time when political assassinations were frequent, and violence was a part of everyday life. Elaine's gripping narrative of surrendering to Alcoholics Anonymous at age 32, after years of battling addiction, serves as the linchpin of our discussion.

In our earnest conversation, we draw parallels between the Vietnam War era and the modern world, emphasizing the importance of youth activism. Elaine reflects on the profound influence of the Vietnam War on her life and outlook. We also journey back to her memories of growing up in Newburgh and attending the legendary Woodstock festival - a cultural climax of the 60s and 70s. My friend Leo Vernetti's experience of getting stuck on a mound during Woodstock serves as a comedic relief in an otherwise serious discourse.

No stone is left unturned as we tackle American history, hope, and poignant reflections on recovery. Elaine shares her personal experience of working with the treatment court and drug court - a journey marked by revelations both simple and profound. We wrap up our conversation with insights on dealing with life's challenges, the need for self-compassion, and the role of gratitude in breaking the cycle of addiction. This epi

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and thanks again for listening to another
episode of All Better.
I'm your host, joe Van Wee.
Today's guest is my friend,elaine Donnelly.
Elaine and I discuss today herentry into recovery in 1987, the
end of an addiction that beganin the 60s and 70s.

(00:25):
We also discuss that period ofhistory distinctly under a term
called cultural amnesia.
We're about two decades seeingpolitical civil rights leaders
assassinated at a frequency ofevery three to four years, some
of these televised, captured bya form of media, what that does

(00:50):
to a person's security and howwe forget what violence looks
like Monthly or daily, or thewords of violence being used in
a political context.
We talk about many other things.
I'm very excited for you tomeet Elaine here with Elaine

(01:16):
Donnelly, and she's alreadylying.
She's lying about breakfast.
She asked her what she ate forbreakfast for a sound check, and
she said a Nutri-Crain bar.

Speaker 2 (01:25):
That was a lie.

Speaker 1 (01:27):
I love liars.
Elaine, thanks for coming on.

Speaker 2 (01:32):
Joe, thanks for having me.
I really, really am honored.

Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, not yet.
I'm just doing a weird podcast.
Who knows what we're going tosay.
That's it.
It could ruin the rest of yourlife.

Speaker 2 (01:44):
I don't think you're that powerful.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
No, I don't think so.
My dog thought I was prettyslick, but that was it.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
That's why we love dogs.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
I haven't seen you in a while and we're trying to
figure it out.
When you arrived, I remember Iused to see you every day
downtown and we get to catch up.
We have a history of doing acouple projects together with
arts and arts alive.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
And children Joe.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
And children, yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
And you were in school South Indian media and
you were wonderful with them.

Speaker 1 (02:19):
It was fun.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
And your staff.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Tim Calvin being one of them.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
It was Tim Calvin Lindsey Barris and Dave
Grigliano who I missed dearly.
They live in Asheville.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Oh okay.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
Well, I guess I would have to go back my first memory
of meeting you.
I was probably a teenager and Iwas dropped off to alcohol and
A&A and around the recoverycommunity of that time and I
think that was kind of my firstrun-ins with you.
But I thought maybe we can talkabout you today.

(02:59):
A little background and thetime you spent in your career,
what do you think?

Speaker 2 (03:05):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, it's all an open book, joe.
Yeah, it really is.
What year did you get droppedoff?
1994.
, so yeah, I had been there fora while.
I got sober in January of 86.
Wow yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:24):
Were you part of the Marworth crew?
The people that went throughMarworth.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
No, as my first sponsor used to say, kiss my
ring.
I never went to a rehab.
Kiss my ring, kiss my ring,yeah no, I was like the
primordial slime that came rightunderneath the door.
I was.
I had given up on life.
I didn't want to be alive.
I had no place else to go.

(03:49):
The only reason I went to AAwas everybody else was going.
That was because I was onlywith people that were very, very
ill, and it turns out I wasprobably as ill or more ill than
any of them and it took melonger to get there because of
it.
In 86, I was so alone and youknow, a little information goes

(04:17):
a long way.
So I knew that suicide, youknow, when someone in a family
dies by suicide it kind ofbecomes a part of the dropdown
menu of options for, you know,resolutions and with problems.

(04:38):
There wasn't any reason at allthat I could ever think of from
my two children to die bysuicide, but so I couldn't, for
their sake, my last decent actas a mother, I think that was
what that was.
So I used to lay in bed andpray to a God that I hated.

(04:58):
I loathed for putting me inthis position, which is
ridiculous.
But you know that's where I wasat that time, and begging him
to let me die.
You know, if you're going tomake me suffer this way, at
least let me stop suffering atone point or another.
And of course, he didn't takemy option for that either, and

(05:19):
so I was dropped off at AA.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
Yeah, how old would you say you were?
I was 32.
Don't want to live your motheraddictions.
It's not even a refuge.
I would assume, any more of theway you're speaking, that
whatever you're using wasn'teven causing any temporary
relief.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
No, I wasn't getting any relief at all and, yeah, I
had stopped getting any kind ofyou know high from anything,
from any substance and, um, youknow, I was just my emotions
were all over the place.
My behavior was driving thoseemotions.

(05:58):
My behavior was an abominationto everybody around me.
You know, people were peoplethat cared about me, were
confronting me.
I mean, I had people you knowwere very, very blunt and very
honest and well, this is reallypainful to talk about.
No, you know, it doesn't matterhow long you're sober or how
many times you've talked aboutit when you reflect on how much

(06:22):
pain you put into the world.
I don't know that you couldever put enough love into the
world to compensate for that,you know.
But that's the solution, isn'tit?
So I, yeah, I was so forlorn, Iwas so, I felt so forsaken.
I did not see the, the commentsand confrontations and

(06:47):
consequences of that.
People were um, metting out tome to be commensurate with what
I was doing.
I could be.
I couldn't see it all.
The only thing I could do wasbe mad at them and hate them and
hate God, and I hatedeverything.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
Wow, that's a lot of pain.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
Yes, it was a lot of pain.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
Joe, it's.
There's something that shinesout to me.
I was raised Catholic and Iwere you.
Did you rate?
Were you raised Catholic?

Speaker 2 (07:14):
or Christian, it's, patrick, it's.
Oh yeah, my dad went to massevery day.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Well, there's two paradoxes, I think, that is
common to people with not onlyaddiction but a Catholic
background or any kind ofChristian, messianic background.
At no point did it seem to stopbelieving in God and what you
said.
But you also think he's thecause of.
There is no way to reconcilethis.

(07:42):
He either created everything orsomehow he is like just you
know.
You can't blame him foranything.
I don't know where that thismakes sense.
And to still have that thatthere's a boss of the universe.
And here you are as a consciousperson and your entire life has

(08:03):
been just now whittled down tothe existence of pain and you
can't escape it.
And instead of knowing there'sa way out, you've already
reconciled there's no way out at32.
I'm stuck in pain.
Please really leave me ofconsciousness.
Yeah, that's that's intense.
And then the other paradox thatkind of jumped out at me that we

(08:26):
could talk about is like allright, I've caused pain and I
have to that you.
There's no way to put back thelove that into the world to kind
of compensate for this or thatit could.
There's, there's, there's aweird absurdity, philosophically
at this rate, that what is loveif there is no pain?

(08:49):
I don't think the human mindcould, you can't make a plane of
understanding in your mind tounderstand, unless there are
opposites.

Speaker 2 (08:58):
Oh, we're definitely a world of dualities black and
white, in and out, up and down,tall and short, et cetera, a
male and female, and it's, yeah,it's so, that's our
understanding.
That's the only understandingthat I had.
Well, now am I, you know, 30,?
How many years?
Is it 37 years?
I don't even know.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
I have a calculator.

Speaker 2 (09:20):
Yeah, 86 to somebody out there.
Do the math.
That's listening.
You know, in that number ofyears I have questioned a lot of
that and thought about that andyou know um debated that, and
so I have more answers that I'mcomfortable with now than I did

(09:43):
then.
But no, I don't, you know I.
So my, my dad was my hero.
Um, like I said, he he was.
He really was one of the people, along with my grandparents,
who, uh, really saved me, andwhen I what?
What I mean by that is he wasthe one who used to say you're a

(10:05):
good girl, I know that you'lldo the right thing, and he was,
would always built.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
Did he say that to you as an adult?
A good girl.

Speaker 2 (10:14):
Um, it was mostly in my teen years when the going got
rough, and then I, with my mom.
My mom was very strong woman.
She really wasn't.
She was very fearful, but shecame on, her demeanor was very
powerful, she was like a dragon.
And so, uh, we, we, and she wasan alcoholic.

(10:35):
So, um, you know, she didn'thave very many coping skills.
My mother loved me and she wasloyal to me and, you know, blah,
blah, blah, on and on, um, youknow, I, I, I love her and I
miss her every single day.
But we went after each otherlike two Tyrannosaurus rexism.
And there was my dad in themiddle, and so he was blamed by

(10:58):
my mother for siding with me,and then he would get me in the
car.
I was crying and he wasdropping me off at a friend's
house.
You know the typical scenario.
And I'm telling me that I was agood girl.
You know your mother don'tlisten to her.
So, and my grandparents were,were very supportive.
Um, I lost one, one grandmother, when I was, uh, just 12, I had

(11:21):
just turned 12.
And I was very close to her,but I had two that were left,
and both of them, my father'smother and my mother's father
both told me that the reason mymother treated me the way she
did was because she drank toomuch, and I didn't believe them.
I thought, oh, they just loveme, you know, I don't think she
drank too much.

(11:43):
Well, she had our disease.
I mean there was, you know.
You know, I mean I have mytheory about some of the pain
that my mother endured and thelack of experience she had and
the lack of help.
And you know, one thing led toanother.
But you know, as the case maybe, she drank and she drank, and

(12:03):
she drank and she drank, andand we were very different
people to begin with and I, youknow, she perceived that as
letting her down and I did thesame thing.
I mean it was, you know, it wasa bad scene, but you know, in
the end see, that's the pointthat I was making is, after all

(12:25):
of these years, I can say thisis my mother, this is who my
mother was.
I mean, I have friends from mychildhood.
We still laugh about Julie.
You know what I mean.
We have Julie's stories.
Remember when Julie this,remember when Julie that, but I
loved her.
I mean she.
You know I stir my pots of soupwith her wooden spoon and you

(12:47):
know and I know who she was, andI also know right now how
afraid she was and how she hadno solutions.

Speaker 1 (12:56):
And when was the first time you considered that
what she had was fear?
That was that, was that.
Were you able to articulatethat in your twenties, like in
the seventies, like no?
Did it come after your own?

Speaker 2 (13:09):
After I was sober after I was sober and I
understood what fear was.
You know, after I siftedthrough uh, what's the
difference between anger and?
And where does that come from?
Oh, it's fear.
Uh, you know all of theinsecure.
To me, everything boils down tofear, and you can put it into
different um cubicles, but it'sfear.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
I wish you would have told me that, elaine, when I
was 16.
You would have saved me.

Speaker 2 (13:36):
I'm sorry, joe, I would have done that if I had
only known it's 36 years 36.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
Okay, here's the math .
I did 20, 23 minus 1,900.

Speaker 2 (13:50):
I knew at the day, I celebrated it, just I lose track
of it 36 years yeah.
Wow yeah, so I've been soberlonger than I was alive when I
got sober Interesting.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
It is, and I wanted to talk, maybe after what I
heard you say, because I couldrelate to this, and I still do,
now that I have two kids.
I feel like I'm understandingmy dad more and more now that
he's dead.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (14:20):
And the more and more I get older, and this, this
couldn't have been any wayaccessible to me without time or
just the luck of staying alivelonger.

Speaker 2 (14:30):
Now, that's the paradox of the ages.
I'm watching it with mychildren and my grandchildren.
Um, you know, there's still 10and seven, but I, um, I know
that they won't know what I knowuntil they're my age and you
know you're not going to knowanything more than you know.

(14:52):
It's I, I and I try, you know,I try to use words to, like you
know, introduce concepts andideas, but we have to have
experience wed with that.

Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, it's weird.
We're a gen, we're agenerational species.
Um, and I, you don't think ofthat way all day, you don't
think of yourself that way.
Um, and just out of the theaverage understanding that most
people don't know their greatgreat grandfather's name.
Like like it's not top of mind,even if you did know or may know

(15:25):
Um, so that he wasn't evenremembered and he's what
produced me.
Yes, and it takes this long toknow someone.
Now that we could live thislong to 80.
Um, it's just strange that itjust doesn't seem, uh, it seems
new to the newest part of thebrain.

(15:46):
It takes this long to know aperson.
That that complexity, that I'mstill getting to know someone.
They're dead and they're livingin my head.
Yeah, um, that's why I needrecovery for that.
I have such a dynamic thinggoing down in my head.
I know you do.
Oh, yeah, I have another lifein there.
That's just like inaccessible.
Um, were you a hippie in theseventies?

(16:07):
Were you attracted to themovement?

Speaker 2 (16:09):
It's been, it's been rumored, yeah, yeah, yes, I mean
black armed bands, army jackets.
I mean my, you know my, mymother's became my mother, um,
lost her brother, uh,parachuting into Normandy on D
day.
He was with the 82nd airborneand I had no appreciation.
There it is, there's the agething.
I had no appreciation for thatat all.

(16:30):
I knew the Vietnam war waswrong and I was pursuing that
idea and I was arrogant as hellabout it.
Um, and my father was,everybody was a veteran.
But you know, for baby boomers,Every that whole generation
above us, there wasn't a.
You know, my mother used to sayto me well, you're, you know

(16:51):
your father, uh, he was reallyolder than the draft but he
joined because someone in thefamily had to represent us.
And you know, your unclecouldn't go because he was
married and he only had one eye,um, and so that was kind of
whispered like.
We won't speak of that.
But I want you to know what thestory is.

(17:14):
Uncle Jack didn't go, it's notbecause of shame, it was because
of, but, um, I had noappreciation of that.
So I flaunted my, you know, um,you know, anti war, anti
government.
You know, I had no appreciation, appreciation of of LBJ and all
of the things that he did dofor this country in terms of,

(17:36):
like, civil rights, and you knowall.
All I could, all I knew, wasthat the war escalated.
Um, I had no understandingabout what Nixon had done in
regard to the war and how he youknow.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
Paul's in that.
Yeah, it's still good to bethat active, even ignorant, I
guess, because there's a voicebeing and and change comes this
way.
Change, if I could look back inhindsight of what I read about
the sixties in comparison to howI grew up and what you're
saying, this disconnection ofideas, what the stakes were, um,

(18:11):
how visible corruption was, andand this unjust war of Vietnam
versus this noble experience ofhaving to fight in Europe at the
stake of the entire planet.
It's succumbing to fascist ideas.
Um, it's still.
There's still something to besaid about P 18 to 24.

(18:33):
25 year olds, still voicingsomething that still changes,
something that even the worldwar two or the boomers just took
for granted, a structure thatwas like you can't change that
part of it, and it takes thisblind air against.
Sometimes maybe there is abenefit to to that kind of
bravado.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
Well, of course there is I think it's the yin and the
yang of every generation rightTo push back against what is and
that changes, you know.
Look at what we're goingthrough right now.

Speaker 1 (19:06):
That's a mirror.

Speaker 2 (19:07):
And I think the hope that I have one of the hopes
that I have is that um, people,young people, um, are going to
rise up and they are strong innumber and if they educate
themselves and are aware ofwhat's happening in the world,

(19:28):
they will come forward withtheir thoughts and their ideas,
even when they're in conflictwith each other, with each other
, um, they can come to some kindof resolve about what our core
values are.
And so that brings me back toso Elaine Donnelly and you know
1986 decides to get sober.

(19:49):
And the question is what camefirst, the chicken or the egg?
So if I wasn't that person thatwas so adamant about life and
living it to its fullest andhaving it the right way and
being a part of that, um, youknow how did that affect my
decision to get sober?
What did I ultimately decide?

(20:12):
I'm not giving up on lifebecause that's not who I am.
I mean not that I verbalize thatto myself, but, um, you do,
when you talk to people, you cankind of find out what's yeah, I
just I didn't stop breathing, Ididn't, you know I, I could
have driven off the road by, butyou know I, I think every

(20:34):
generation has the possibilityto um rejuvenate our planet.

Speaker 1 (20:41):
When you said that, I remember hearing stories that
what came to mind first andforemost was the visuals of
Vietnam and what they could havelooked like for Scranton, and
I've seen pictures, uh, from the, the paper, the times, and then
talking to friends that areolder, that, if I'm not mistaken
, hundreds of coffins withinthat period, uh, hundreds of

(21:05):
funerals of young guys fromScranton.
Well, and I don't.
Well, here's the thing.

Speaker 2 (21:10):
I'm not, no, because I'm not from Scranton.
Oh no, no, I was.
I was born in the Bronx, so I'mYankees fan.

Speaker 1 (21:17):
That's right.

Speaker 2 (21:19):
And last year I had, you know Well, the Bronx.
You were in the Bronx.
I know, and then I.
so my story is that I was thenat the at at at 13 months old, I
was here in there, and Iliterally mean I was here in
there for the first 13 months ofmy life and then, because I was

(21:39):
given up for adoption on dayone.
So, foster homes, another home,I don't know, I don't know,
it's all closed in.
Anyway, I ended up in Newburgh,new York, which is right on 84.
Yeah, that's beautiful, oh,it's there's.
You know, a part of my heartwill always be in the Hudson
Valley.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's.

(21:59):
You know, there's so manythings I could tell you to go
visit.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
It's magical.

Speaker 2 (22:03):
Yeah, we'll talk later.
I'll tell, I'll give you awhole playlist of your places to
go, but anyway, you know.
So that helped mold me on.
60 miles outside of New York.
I'm getting New York city newsbut we there wasn't any local
news, so we had a larger worldvision, I think.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah, I think so.

Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:23):
It's an artist town too.
I mean, there's.

Speaker 2 (22:25):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
And we and racial issues.
We were part of the GreatMigration and you know a very
strong John Birch society whichwas very conservative.
So there were riots in my highschool.
Wow and the oh.
The first one was my junioryear at about, but I this is
civil during civil rights.

(22:48):
Yes, we had civil rights,women's rights, gay rights.
You know, I had friends thatwere gay, that were in the club
and then, and then I got towatch them suffer with HIV and
die, you know.
So the baby boomers wentthrough, you know, just a wave,
you know, like in, you know itwas more like a the sea during a

(23:10):
storm.
One wave after another, afteranother, yeah, but, but being
enmeshed in caring about theworld and caring about those
issues, it was the groundwork toeverything else.
So I, I cared just as muchabout being a mother, yeah, and
I cared just as much aboutbecoming sober, which I think

(23:30):
ultimately helped me.
You know, I chose my path, but,yeah, it was an interesting
time to grow up.
And so one little funny storywas did I go to Woodstock?
No, but everybody, well, yesand no, everybody that was going
to Woodstock, right, had tocome.

(23:52):
If they were coming from theSouth, or they were coming from
the West, or they were coming,they, everybody had to converge
in Newberg, and so there werehalf a million, well, except
from the North, when, if theywere coming down from the North.
So, yeah, a half a million kidsof the throughway was, which
you know was runs right throughNewberg.
Yeah, that was shut and so wewere taking back roads, we being

(24:16):
my girlfriend and I and herfamily.
She had her family.
I was blessed enough to spendso much time with their family
and that was another savinggrace.
Yeah, the universe put a lot ofpeople in my life, but anyway,
we were on our way to theCatskills where they had some
land and a cabin and, you know,no running water and no, it was

(24:38):
it was.
We called it camp.
So we were on our way to campand we're thinking ourselves
what are all these people alongthe side of the road?
We were at Yarsgarh's farm, the.
The farm had been closed off,so everybody was parked along
the street.
So there we were and my friendBarbara and I were like we
should be, we should get out ofthe car.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:02):
We were just shy, a year or two, of being
recalcitrant enough to go on ourown and let the chips fall.
Well, she was.
She was a better person than me.
She wouldn't have gone intofighters but I would have been
up there.
But yeah, I was at Yarsgarh'sfarm during Woodstock and but
never, you know, really went in.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
That's phenomenal.
I just heard a story.
It went up in the stock.
You wouldn't believe it.
Leo Vernetti I've known him mywhole life.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
Remember we were, we were there, we were told me was
at Woodstock.

Speaker 1 (25:35):
I said how did I miss this?
He said he got stuck on a mound.
He's wearing a jacket plaidjacket slacks.
He showed up as a square, took20 minutes to get off a mountain
which he goes back 40 yearslater.
It was a mound.
I said someone gave himmescaline and it took him 30
minutes to walk off this mound.
He was screaming for help.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:59):
So this is my favorite period of American
history because so much ispacked in of where we're at now
and that's both sides of ourpolitical spectrum.
How it was formed from justwhat you were describing LBJ
sacrificing pretty much theDemocratic Party in the South

(26:23):
permanently for the next 40years and it became Republican
because of civil rights, and heknew this.
It wasn't like an unintendedconsequence.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
And a president from the South.

Speaker 1 (26:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
You know, he was a Texan and he knew what was
coming.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
And you know as many things as you could point to him
and say they're very ugly.
He was a master politician andit might have took that guy's
personality to finish the civilrights moment.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
Well, and I you know it's funny, who's to know?
Because John Kennedy and RobertKennedy as his attorney general
, really laid the groundwork, Imean, they built the framework.

Speaker 1 (27:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
And then LBJ put the sides up on it.
But you know my generation alsogot to see.
You know John murdered andRobert murdered and Martin.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
Luther King murdered.
Malcolm X murdered.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
Malcolm X.

Speaker 1 (27:26):
John Lennon.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
John Lennon was 1980, but it was, they were, and it
was a cumulative effect.
Because I remember getting upin the morning.
Well, I mean, I remembereverything about JFK, like
everybody does.
You know.
I remember the intersection Iwas at with my mother and
grandmother who was sick at thetime and hearing that JFK had

(27:52):
passed, and you know so Iremember all that.
But by the time and then Martin, and then by the time Robert
Kennedy was assassinated, I gotup in the morning and my mother
said to me I just heard on theradio that Robert Kennedy was

(28:13):
murdered.
And I looked at her and Iturned.
I remember doing this, Icouldn't verbalize anything.
I looked at her and then Iturned around, I went in brings
tears now and I just sobbed howmany heroes could we have

(28:35):
possibly lost?
You know, like the whole worldwas coming down.
And yet it wasn't.
Because here we are, here weare.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
We landed on this topic and I was.
I'm watching yesterday.
You know political rhetoricgetting violent and here you are
.
You've lived through ageneration.
Every three, four years, keyleaders of many movements were
assassinated and these arerecorded visually.
How do you convey to someonethat's in their 40s and below

(29:11):
like this language could kill?
And we're not even seeing that.
We're seeing just weird pocketsof violent explosions in
schools and so but to see aleader assassinated on
television you live through that.
What does your sense ofstability and hope feel like by

(29:33):
the time you reach 1980, withthat culture being what you're
walking out of Like?
What does that fucking feellike?

Speaker 2 (29:40):
Well, you know, I.
So there's enough baby boomersstill left that we keep telling
the tale.
And I think repeating what wepersonally experienced is cannot
fall in deaf ears in terms of,you know, hate cannot outweigh

(30:01):
love.
You know, I mean, it's sosimple, right, so silly.
Actually, you know the Beatles,all you need is love.
And well, that's not all youneed, but it's certainly a good
start, isn't it?

Speaker 1 (30:11):
I take a health plan with that.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
Seriously, yeah, but I think it goes back to what I
said before, which is allowingyoung people to see the history,
the, as you said before, thelinear history of you know the
generations, and then, lookingat their own generation, those

(30:37):
two young men in Tennessee thatwere kicked out of the you know
legislature, and then one is inand one is out.
This is three weeks ago.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
Oh well, this was you know it started.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
It started months ago and then they were taken back
in, reappointed and then theother one was just kicked back
out and there was a woman thatwas also.
But my point is, when I listento those young men talk, it
makes me feel like we are goingto be okay, even if you don't
agree with them.

(31:12):
That's great.
They are not talking aboutbeing angry.
They're not talking aboutrevenge.
They're not talking about youknow what they are.
Let me talk about what they aretalking about.
What they are talking about isdoing the right thing, providing

(31:34):
for everybody, raising peopleup, listening to their ideas.
You don't have to agree withthem, but you have to engage,
and you know I mean.
There's nothing better than agood debate.

Speaker 1 (31:48):
No, and the best argument can always win yes,
truth, truth.
Truth always has a betterchance, higher probabilities of
winning in an argument, anonviolent inner.
I always see history myself andI have to see it this way
because I'm sitting slantingtowards less than I am Less
violence, more isolated violence, and that's just a trend, that

(32:15):
and I see more liberties, I seemore autonomy, just if you just
took a metric, in the last 400years, like 500 years ago, both
of our families were under therule of whatever noble was in
charge of the property.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
That is, that's right .

Speaker 1 (32:28):
What the fuck Right?
Who's in charge of like?
Listen my great.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
well, okay, so now that I've said I was adopted, I
can talk about my two families.
Right, I talked about the onethat raised me, the one that I
lived in their culture and theysupported me, and what.
But my?
You know my DNA, you know Istand on the shoulders of those
people too, and you know so.
My grandmother, mary McCabe,came here in 1916 and alone and

(33:00):
poor, and it did not end wellfor her.
But the point that I'm makingis you know they had struggles
too, and you know they weretaking Hard, hard struggles,
hard struggles.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
And a lower lifespan.
Yes, they didn't get the 20extra years we have to get at
something done.
No, I don't think.
I don't think it's easilyaccessible to your brain when
you're considering periods ofhistory.
You're talking about half thelifespan we have now.
Oh yeah, Pre 1900, half thelifespan.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
Was the average lifespan.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
Yeah, I want to.
Let's wrap up how you, yourrecovery.
You know, came to birth and Ithink you painted a great
picture of culture.
You can't separate yourselffrom culture.
You're in it, Right.
It's the software you downloadto your head.
It becomes part of yourbehavior.

(33:56):
And the culture you got toexperience in the first 30 years
of your life was unstable.
Even though it's in the UnitedStates, the sense of security
seemed to always be jeopardizedin the last three years, every
three years, with either anassassination, a war, a

(34:16):
political upset, a changing ofthe guard, women's rights going
up, they come down.
That brings you to 1986.
And here's a person that hadhope 10 years earlier, was part
of something that was real, athing that would change, change
the structure of how people viewpower.
That seems to be gone rightFrom.

(34:40):
How did your addiction end andwhen did you start to have hope?

Speaker 2 (34:47):
So you know, there is , I think, a mental health
component to addiction which is,you know, at the bedrock of who
we are selfish andself-centered, so-.

Speaker 1 (35:05):
Makes for a good economy.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
It does.
Yeah, we are very goodconsumers of a lot of things,
but you know.
So here's what I have to sayabout it.
I thought I was just a part ofa social order that was going to
change the world, the wholething that I was missing, that I

(35:30):
found in recovery, and I don'tthink I was going to move
forward without the help of anumber of people, you know,
having my back and pushing meforward the recovering community
.
Is that the biggest journey,right, the biggest
responsibility, the only waythat we're all going to keep

(35:52):
moving forward, is for us tolook inward, and I hadn't done
that.
I was just a part of a surge,you know, I was just a part of,
like, I was a boomer, I was, youknow, we were, you know sex,
drugs and rock and roll.
And this is, I think you know,goes back to the age thing where

(36:16):
I, you know, I got to the agewhere I thought to myself I've
looked all around me andnothing's going on here.
This is getting worse, neverhave an eye looked for an answer
, and in the rooms where peoplewith the same problems sit,

(36:40):
somebody suggested that I lookinward.
Just take account for what youhave done and how that looks,
and then the whole puzzle piececame together.

Speaker 1 (36:54):
Isn't that that's a hard venture.
I just want to put it under mymicroscope to your demographic
Spending 10 years saying this isthe problem, this is the
violence that preceded us, thissystem, a patriarch system.
And now you're here.
You are at the end of anaddiction and someone's saying,

(37:16):
no, look in, is it?
Is that difficult when you'recoming?
Did you meet other hippies orpeople that were a part of that
10 years?
It's hard to say, okay, where'syour blame?
Where do you go in and getempowered by looking at?

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Well, and I don't know whether I don't think this
is just my generation, becauseresearch will show you that most
people begin to resolve theirissues in the thirties.
You have that makes you know,that's just right.
That's just the research.
You know we spend the teenageyears being, you know, kind of
amoebas we're.

(37:52):
You know, in our twenties we'reall over the place.
That you know.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
My 10th class reunion was just you know In a medical
book, you could be treated by apediatrician until you're 26.

Speaker 2 (38:03):
There you go.
I know, and some of the brainresearch is showing, you know
you're not.
Your brain isn't done maturinguntil you're 30.
So it all makes sense right.
So now we're into our thirties,we've made enough mistakes that
we, you know we can look around.
You know, if you're totallysuccessful, you get to sort out
what was your success and whatdid your family hand you, and

(38:26):
that in and of itself can beshocking.
You know, oh, yeah, okay, so Idon't have this car because I
earned it.

Speaker 1 (38:34):
You know my dad, you know you didn't build it either,
exactly.

Speaker 2 (38:38):
So you know I, we, we , we begin to reconcile all of
that.
But you know, I, I think therewere, of course, a number of of
people my age that were gettingsober at the same time, and we
and so I remember Joe thethought about well, these are
the people that I like hangingaround with anyway.

Speaker 1 (38:57):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
And so that helped.
I mean, that was, you know.
There were the serious soulsearching, you know kind of
unquenchable thirst for deep,deep questions that I was.
And then there was thefrivolous thought about like
these, these silly people arethe ones that I always

(39:18):
gravitated to, and so they'rewhat.
There they were, the seekers.
Yeah, Well, the seekers, butyou know the people that
couldn't climb down off themolehill because, they thought
it was a mountain.
You know, I mean all thosepeople here they are, they were
still trying to climb down offthe molehill, thinking it's a
mountain, and we got to do ittogether.

Speaker 1 (39:41):
So, and I don't think that's different than any other
generation of people coming,you know, and so you remind me
of an old cliche I liked inearly A when I first came around
from that molehill was hey kid,don't pole vault over rabbit
shit.

Speaker 2 (39:58):
I never heard that, but I like it.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
So sobriety is produced in this mixture of you
know, friendly faces, people youcould connect with, some step
work and just engaging thecommunity in the 80s, when did
things form a career or what youwanted to do to find meaning

(40:24):
and work?
How did that evolve?

Speaker 2 (40:28):
So my career was dedicated to children.
That's how it began.
I always had the feeling thatif children were nurtured and
loved and respected, they wouldbe okay.
And so that's how I startedwith after school programs and

(40:55):
just loving these kids andgetting them what they needed to
the best of my ability.
And I worked for uh, at thetime it was EOTC, now it's
outreach and it is a loving kind.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
You know, wonderful you know, you know I'm on the
board.
Oh, you're on the board.
Well, first board member, theygot a board.
Welcome aboard.

Speaker 2 (41:19):
I forgot to tell you.
Well, and last night was theirmighty oak dinner.
And one of the children from myearliest days with them, uh,
who is now except?
Has accepted a position as ananchor woman?
Um, yeah, I know, uh, notlocally.
She's going to be out in theWestern like state college and

(41:40):
beyond.
But you know, went through prep, went through college, got a
master's degree, like has a,lived here, did this and she's
beautiful and fabulous and smartand uh, what does that feel
like when?

Speaker 1 (41:51):
you see that.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Well, I, I mean, I loved her then and, um, you know
, I and I love, and I love her.
Now.
This is, this is the you knowthe the first day I met, um,
this young woman Chantel is hername, chantel Calhoun I, I, I.
She deserves to have her nameout there, cause she's a star
and there's many stars, um, andthat's the point, right?

(42:13):
So, uh, the first day I met hershe's you know she said I have
to do a book report.
Well, um, what's the bookreport on Rosa Parks?
I said, okay, well, tell mewhat the book said.
Well, I didn't read the book.
I said, well, okay, you didn'tread the book, so you have to
read the book.
We can't write the reportwithout.
I'll help you write the report.

(42:34):
You have to read the book.
When?
When is the report to?
Tomorrow?
So that was the first day I mether.
And um, she has just flown overthe clouds ever since.
You know, once, once she gotstarted, she just never stopped.
I mean, she's had adversity inher life, well, like we all have

(42:56):
, and um has risen above at all.
So, anyway, that was mybeginning.
Now I'm going to get to the rootof your question, which is um,
you know.
So tell me about your recoveryand, um, and the work that you
did.
So you know, the grants ran outand they my job was changing,
and they called me into theoffice and said what do you

(43:20):
think about doing some work withthe treatment court, with the
drug court, it was called at thetime.
Um, I said well, and I knewwhat that meant we don't have
any money to pay you unless youdo this.
So we're giving you thecourtesy of asking, but it
really doesn't matter what you.
So I said, well, I don't wantto do that.

(43:41):
And now you have to hear thisjoke because you're going to
love this part of my story.
I already do.
Um, I.
I said I don't want to do it.
I said, well, can can we askyou why?
And I said I don't like thosewomen.
Those women hurt their children.
I love their children.

(44:04):
Who they are hurting?
I have no interest in reachingmy hand out to them.
I don't like them and I don'twanna spend time with them, and
you know my work well enough toknow that, if not you, I was
this.
This is directed to mysupervisor.
You know my work well enough toknow that if I have to do this

(44:24):
work and I believe I will then Iwill do the best that I can for
those women, but I don't wannado it.
Well, go ahead and think aboutit, elaine, and we'll talk about
it.
So you know, joe.
You know the next thing?
I know I'm sitting in thetreatment court and two weeks

(44:47):
later I'm sitting in my officelistening to some woman tell me
probably some egregious thingthat happened to her, some
profound experience that she hadin her life.
And I looked at her and Ithought and I can't give you the
background of this, I can onlytell you what was happening
there was a woman talking to meand I'm looking at her and my

(45:11):
thought was this you're one ofthe kids.
Where did I think the childrenwere going to go?
Where did I think they weregoing?
Here's where they're going tomy office.
I've just jumped the line alittle bit and I'm catching them

(45:32):
, you know, and hugging them asadults.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
Once they weren't defended.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
That was it, and I thought this is where I was
supposed to be.
All of that was practice.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
It's full circle to how you came to understand your
mom, your grandmother, thesewomen You're so easily and
desperately wanna judge and knowyou're different and you can't.
I'm not saying, but you look atit.
What causes that kind of personto harm what would seem

(46:05):
innocent as a person?
That?

Speaker 2 (46:08):
their childhood was stolen.
They're sick themselves.
It's a you know that wholemulti-generational thing, but
it's true.
But let me say this too who wasit that the universe was
looking out for in thatsituation?
The woman who stood in theoffice and said I don't like
them, those women, blah, blah,blah.
They did this.

(46:30):
You know, I'm one of them.
I had completely separatedmyself from the herd.
I had forgotten who I was.
I had forgotten somebody pickedme up.

Speaker 1 (46:42):
How long were you sober when that moment of your
life, of realization happened?

Speaker 2 (46:48):
So I probably have been with the well, I think the
judge and I decided I'd beendoing working with the court for
about 20 years.
So 20 years, yeah, so it wasprobably more than that now, but
what?

Speaker 1 (47:04):
you're saying to me is exciting, because life could
get cynical again, even insobriety.
You don't have to relapse If wehave little revelations that
are that simple.
That I am you.

Speaker 2 (47:15):
Yes, I am you Well here's the thing we say all
these little quippy things about.
You know, oh, we don't have tohave a drink to have a relapse,
we don't have to have a drug tohave a relapse, and yet we miss
in each other all the time thethings that are really happening
.
I didn't know, I did not useagain, I never had a drink or a

(47:36):
drug, I never, you know.
But here's the thing, Joe, Iwas lost, I was lost and I was
getting more lost.

Speaker 1 (47:45):
I never knew.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
Well, I didn't either .
Which is more for no, youdidn't know that I was a
relapsing.
No, that much.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
I think, well, I can't.
You were a little goofy.

Speaker 2 (47:55):
You know, I mean it's a technical term, but I think
you get the gist of it.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
There's Joe.
He's goofy.
I did a lot of praying for you,Joe.
Thank you, I did Thank you.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
I needed it.
I felt really alone and it wasa lot of it could be looked back
to as manufactured.
But right before things startedto get really just dark in my
head, it was right after I spenttime with you.
Not that you're the cause of it.
I have broad shoulders though,but I think all the people

(48:30):
interesting, kind, loving peoplethat have the insight that you
do, that I was able to be aroundin my teenage years.
I don't think I would have theresiliency even when things got
dark again, sober or drunk, likeI can't fall into a total pit,
because you guys live in my headas characters.

(48:51):
You evolve, people stay withyou.
You're one of those people thatI know is out there fighting a
noble fight, cares about morals,cares about who you are, and
even when we get lost, you couldwake back up.

Speaker 2 (49:06):
Well, and you know, we think we know what's going on
in the world, but you don'thave any idea how many times on
a Saturday night somebody wouldsay hey, has anybody seen Jovan
we recently?
How's he doing?
Does anybody know how he'sdoing?
Oh well, he this, that theother thing.
So along the time that Ihaven't seen you, I've heard all
about you.
Like, what I'm saying to you isyou are thrown into a pool of

(49:31):
people who, as loose as it maybe, at the fringe right of your
life, are still people who areholding that, that together and
yeah, and have your back, arethere.
You know, people are.
We cheer each other on and it'snot always face to face, Jo,

(49:51):
but it is constant and neverending.
When you hear about somebodythat's floundering or faltering
or has fallen to any extent, theonly response anybody I've ever
heard I mean I'm there wasprobably a few people that you
know that's not true butoverwhelmingly the response is

(50:14):
love.
Yeah, and that brings us back tofull circle.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Makes one feel silly sometimes when I my mind is
straight and I thought thissource of gratitude.
The last two years I've heardstories of really high acuity,
of serious trauma, people whodid not even have the
circumstance even what myproblems are yours.
I've heard people that didn'teven have the probability of a

(50:42):
chance or the people of supportthey could find just in their
community, and to me it's notlike shame on me forever, it's
more of holy God.
Let this always be a source ofgratitude.
Some people don't even are 12step communities beyond
probabilities or good resultsbecause of the people that are

(51:03):
in our community here.
That's not everywhere.

Speaker 2 (51:05):
This grant's not everywhere.
You know, I just listened,speaking of podcasts, to a
podcast with Norman Lear and whois 93 years old or was at the
time, I think it's a recentpodcast.
Anyway, there's many things Icould say about that podcast in
Norman Lear, but what I will sayis it was over Winfrey, that

(51:31):
was the interviewer, and shesaid to him you know he had
established I'm a Jew but I'venever been religious.
You know, we've never had anorganized thing.
So she said to him how wouldyou define a spiritual
experience with God?
And he said one word gratitude.

(51:54):
Yeah, it's almost like myhusband, you know, with his one
word saying connectedness.
You know, I don't know that youcan have gratitude for life and
for people and for who you areand what you have and the
solutions that are availablethat you don't see yet, and not

(52:19):
connect with the higher power,even if it's all of the people
that are contributing to yourlife.

Speaker 1 (52:25):
No, no, it's.
That's the gift that lingersfrom desperation.
Is that it's my source ofgratitude?
I was just telling one of theguys here you know.
You said having struggled witha job and just only three months
ago he didn't have a job andwasn't going to get hired by
anyone because of his background.

(52:46):
I said dig deep, don't let goof that day.
Like I go to a hospital bed allthe time, like when some
trivial thing is about to ruinmy day.
I'm telling myself a story ofwhy things are going on and why
things are going to be awful allday.
I go back to thinking man, Iwanted to just die outside.
If I was going to die, can Ijust die on the sidewalk?

(53:07):
I want to breathe air.
That's an endless source ofgratitude because that time has
passed the pain of its past, butI could visualize it in such
detail that the gratitude thatcomes from that is real and it's
always accessible.
Any multitude of symptoms.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
The only reason it's not accessible is because we
won't let it come through.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
Yeah, no, and you have to manufacture your
problems then.
So the problem happened whereyour perceived one will happen.
You have to keep tellingyourself how that problem is
going to happen.
That's not a rubber band or amuscle reflex.
That's you hypnotizing yourself.
That's me hypnotizing.

(53:54):
My practice is step 11, let'sme kind of break that.
It's a practice every morning.
I'm not going to a waterfall,my meditations or anything like
that.
I don't relate to thosemeditations, I'm just watching.
Holy shit, why am I thinkingabout this?
There I go planning again.
Now I'm telling a story.
I haven't seen this person in10 years.
I'm finishing a conversationwith them while I'm getting in

(54:17):
my car to go to work.
This is fucking psychosis.
Yeah, yeah, this is that'swhere I think addiction can
really go rampant on someone Ifyou don't see.
That's where it is, that'swhere it lives.
It's this, it's this dialogue Ihave.

Speaker 2 (54:32):
It's internal.
Yeah that's the thing, right,that we were talking about
before, which is the you knowthe final frontier.
To go back to Star Wars, youknow not Star Wars, star Trek,
I'll talk Star Wars, yeah, yeah,well, I love Star Wars, but
anyway, you know, the finalfrontier is is just that it's

(54:53):
going, it's going inward.

Speaker 1 (54:55):
Yeah, the cosmos is in there.
Yeah, al Watzo, he said that hegoes.
You got a magnificent telescope.
You see another galaxy, a drama.
He goes.
Oh, you're seeing what's inyour head.
You can go anywhere, man, thecosmos is in there, that's right
, yeah, yeah, I think a lot ofinteresting things at science

(55:16):
right now are thinking there's amore complex relationship
between a conscious mind, ahuman brain, like in my brain,
and my relationship to the world.
And there's something that'sjust not sensible about it that
you're rendering parts ofreality Like like the fact that
you just don't see your nose allday, like this is a revision of

(55:40):
reality, like so you're, you'reediting, I caught.
You're not taking in raw,objective truth ever.
So how do we even access what'strue or in reality?
I always relate that toaddiction.
I know the, the addicts I andalcoholics I relate to know a
fraud's being committed and inthe fraud, in the sense that you

(56:04):
described, god is somehow thisparadox.
I need his help, but he'shurting me.
There's something not clear,but I can understand things
without articulating them whenI've let what you said
connectivity happen.
I can't always describe why I'mchanging or why my beliefs are
changing, but I know something'schanged to me, right Like I'm

(56:28):
open to stuff.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Well, and you know, one of the questions that that
I've had to grapple with is whydo I value my brain more than my
heart?
Why do I feel like I have tounderstand this and explain this
in words, when this may be farmore complicated than anything
my brain can produce?
So I need to sometimes fallback on something that I can't

(56:56):
use words to explain.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
Yeah, yeah.
The instance that it seemswhere the stakes are so high for
me and what you just explained,is when I would have a head
full of acid and I would getthis panic that someone's going
to stop at the house.
Oh my God, I would just realizeI started tripping on a Tuesday
morning and I didn't go to workseeing if this would wake me up
.
And I'm like, what if someonerings the bell?

(57:19):
I'm so tripped out.
I know I'm not crazy, I knowI'm tripping, but if I talk to
someone they might call Look tohave some psychiatric
intervention on me.
How am I going to defend myself?
Because I don't think at thispoint I could prove that I'm not
crazy, even though internally Iknew I wasn't.
I knew I wasn't.

(57:39):
That's when I could feel it.
It's like this really emotionalroller coaster that
communication is so subtle for,for sanity and norms and to
share a sense of community.
I think that's the warmest partof a.
I found my freaks.
I joined the circus that I knewI belonged to.

Speaker 2 (57:59):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean and I think you know you
were talking about your twochildren, and so when you sit
down and talk to them, the howprofound a child is is also
beyond words.
You know, what is it about?

(58:22):
A baby or a toddler or, youknow, a preschooler or you know?
Or my 10-year-old granddaughter?
What is it about children thatmakes them so magnetic, that
makes them so above and beyondeverybody else?
They will grab the attention ofa crowd and this has nothing to

(58:49):
do with their philosophy or thetruth of the universe.
It has everything to do with.
We have beauty in this placeand it's right before our eyes
and we don't need to explain it.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
And I think that's- and I'm looking at my phone.
No, you're right.
I mean, I get that.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
That's it.
I watch it all the time.
People going down the street ontheir phone and they have the
most gorgeous human beingwalking next to them that thinks
like your dog did, that thinkseverything of them.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
No, I have to put safeguards because I'll miss the
plot.
Like the war for my attentionor anyone's attention is the war
now.
Like that is the new oilattention, and I can miss the
plot.
Like the baby boomer dad whowanted to get ahead somewhere,
stayed, burned the midnight oilto get the life for the kids.

(59:48):
You miss the plot.
Yeah, I mean, I'm not going toWith that kind of ideas in line,
how would you summarize themost fulfilling parts of your
career and ending a career?

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
I think the most rewarding, you said the most
fulfilling.

Speaker 1 (01:00:15):
You had Chantel.
I guess that would be some ofit, right, you know so it just
happened last night, yes, andrealizing that they're not two
separate things.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
People like to talk about their career and then
their life, just like peoplelike to talk about their career
and their personal life andtheir family life.
You can't separate these things, no they're just arbitrary.
And then they try to put friendsover here and you know material
things over here.
Like we like to segment things.

(01:00:53):
When you're making a cake,things are only segmented until
they go into the bowl and thenthat's what makes it's the
mixture of everything that makesthe cake.
So what I'm figuring out now atthis age well, I guess building
on what I already knew is abetter way of saying it is that

(01:01:14):
it's never been separated.
It's always been a juggle aboutwhere does my attention belong
right now, not where does myattention need to be, or doesn't
what part don't shouldn't I bepaying attention to?
What's the professionalseparate?
You know separation that I haveto put here.

(01:01:36):
What you know it's always been.
How do I mix this all togetherto create a meaningful life that
I'm proud of?
Like what will my legacy be?

Speaker 1 (01:01:49):
You said, it is always my goal and I always fall
short of it.
How do you an anxious guy, Iget repetitive in my head for
plans if I start to reallyoverbook things and it starts to
be really hard to be present,because now I want to solve the
problem that I just walked awayfrom.
Now I have to go do somethingelse being present.

(01:02:12):
What are some tips and tricksthat you use that just you walk
into a room, whatever you cameor left from, say the work to
family, and it's lingering onyou.
How would you center yourselfand say, no, I'm going to be in
this room?

Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
So, first of all, allow me to say that I don't do
life perfectly, and so sometimesI drag that garbage right
through the door with me, youknow?
So there's that and thenthat's-.
So that's the beginning, right?
That's the beginning of sayingyou know?
Geez well, okay, I did that.

(01:02:50):
I'm not here Like theacknowledgement of the situation
.
the openness about- yeah, it'snot like somebody's got the
market on this.
Somebody's going to write abook, and geez, I wish it was me
.
I wish I had put it to paperfirst, like there's always going
to be a compilation of thingsthat happen.

(01:03:13):
And you said it before when yousaid I can't go to a waterfall.
That doesn't work for me.
All those images I have to bethinking about, oh gee, why am I
thinking about that person andwho is it?
When yesterday happened, oh, sonow I'm thinking about
yesterday was and I believe thatthat's everybody's valid.

(01:03:35):
And to say that to yourself isto say you know, joe, you
started off that question bysaying you know I don't really
ever achieve this or that's notthe word you but you first you
disqualified yourself fromknowing that you are fully
participatory, but not everysecond.

(01:03:55):
So you say you go home to yourwife and you know, and I know my
husband, he tunes me out, Itune him out, and then I get mad
at him, like I never do it.
You know what I mean.
Are you listening to me, jim?
Do you hear what-.
You know what I mean.
Like I do the same thing.

(01:04:16):
It's that compassion that wehave to have for each other.
It's the you know, it'sforgiving yourself, it's just
acknowledging.
This is just a human thingwe're doing here.
Can we do the best we can?

Speaker 1 (01:04:32):
And start over.
And start- just keep startingover.

Speaker 2 (01:04:35):
That's exactly what I was going to say next yes
that's exactly what I was goingto say.

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's a lot of startingover.
I want to be alwaysnon-resistant to starting over,
because when I I want to keepfinishing a story in my head, I
get sick, I get sick.
I'll finish in like an argumentor a challenge for my wife
going to work.
Oh, why didn't I think it I'mlike start over, just let go.

(01:04:59):
Let go Listen and let go yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:03):
Sometimes it's just a matter of going and I hate this
, I hate this.
It really is sometimes a matterof me going back and saying,
you know what?
I was just a real jerk.
Yeah, I hate that.
Yeah, me too.
I don't do that part well in mylife.
I would much rather be givingadvice.

Speaker 1 (01:05:20):
I would much rather start over right at the moment
to call my sponsor and tell himsomething, that there's a men's
involved or.
I don't like writingresentments, I will.
I still like that practice.
It makes sense to me.
It commits me to another personthat I'm not embarrassed of

(01:05:41):
what like my life's, whatexposed to what we're a
community.
I was like I want someone toknow, I want to change something
about myself, like a reflex Ihave.
So is there anything I shouldhave asked you that I didn't get
to?

Speaker 2 (01:05:55):
I don't think so.
I think we can look at this asan ongoing conversation.
So whether it's five years fromnow or-.

Speaker 1 (01:06:05):
You're coming back.
Yeah yeah, we talked about thesixties again.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
You're real specific the sixties and the seventies
yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
My favorite quote was remember Bruce, and I just saw
him dumpster Bruce.
I haven't seen him in a while.
Flamin' hippie now he's kind ofvery conservative.
But he said his favorite quotefrom the seventies why change
dicks in the middle of a screw?
Vote for Nixon in 72.
There you have it.
That's the first guy, matt andI.

(01:06:36):
That's what he was telling me.
He had all the hippie regalia.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
And so I voted for McGovern.
And what did he take one state.

Speaker 1 (01:06:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:45):
Now, there you have it.

Speaker 1 (01:06:46):
Yeah, well, till next time.

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
Thank you so much, joe.
Thanks for coming.
This has really really been funit's fun right.
So when I asked, when mygranddaughter asked me again if
you have had celebrities on, I'mgoing to say yes, yes, yes, as
a matter of fact, a spectacularone Wonderful woman from Newark.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
Wait and hear her story.

Speaker 2 (01:07:10):
Thanks, joe.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
I'd like to thank you for listening to another
episode of All Better to find uson allbetterfm, or listen to us
on Apple Podcasts, spotify,google Podcast Stitcher,
iheartradio and Alexa.
Well, thanks to our producer,john Edwards.

(01:07:36):
An engineering company, 5.7.0Drone.
Please like or subscribe to uson YouTube, facebook, instagram
or Twitter and, if you're not,on social media you're awesome.
Looking forward to seeing youagain.
And remember, just becauseyou're sober doesn't mean you're

(01:07:57):
right.
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