Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and thanks
again for listening to another
episode of All Better.
I'm your host, joe Van Lee.
Today's guest is my friend,mike Mizwinski, better known
simply as Mike Miz Miz is asinger, songwriter, guitarist
from Northeast PennsylvaniaKnown for soulful and energetic
(00:26):
live performances.
Surged by his mother and fatherto pursue a passion for music,
mike began playing guitar at theage of seven and started
writing songs as early as theage of ten, often performing
over 200 shows a year.
He's had the privilege to openup for Jason Isbell, jacob
(00:48):
Dillon, lucas Nelson, luzTraveller, derek Trucks, america
, kenny Wayne, shepherd, felizBrothers, sean Colvin, leon
Russell, chris Isaac, peter Wolf, southside Johnny and the
Asbury Jukes, jackie Green,railroad Earth and many more.
(01:10):
Rolling Stone magazine calledMike's 2021 single Virginia a
monster of a rock jammer.
His latest album, only Human,came out on Blackbird Record
label on 414-23 this year.
Mike currently resides inNashville, tennessee.
(01:32):
He defined his music onMikeMizMusiccom.
Mike's an old friend and Mike'sa person in long term recovery.
Today we get to catch up on allthings and talk about therapy,
early recovery, the origins ofaddiction in one's life and how
(01:53):
that plays to one's creativity,the condition of the sober mind
and an addict in recovery andhow sensitive it is to interpret
the world.
We discuss and explore a lot ofthese ideas, so let's be Miz.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
I remember that.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Miz, when was the
last time you heard this lick?
Speaker 2 (02:35):
I like the month we
did it, you know.
So, that was a fun day.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
That was a recording
from 2018.
You called on the fly.
You had the idea for the song.
You said you just startedwriting it.
Within 24 hours, there was 11people who brought to my house,
my living room, and you played aNew Year's Eve song.
It was in 2018.
(03:06):
Things were getting reallystressful politically the
political climate in our area inthe nation.
This pre-COVID you shared thatin a week it had 400 shares.
I'm looking at now it's just at20,000 views.
That was in 2018.
The title of that song wascalled Learn to Love.
Was that the last time I sawyou?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I think so man yeah
In a minute.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Yeah, Did you ever
revisit or play that again?
That was just kind of I got toknow you prior to that.
I saw how you took what wasjust bugging you out in the
public and you made it a songwithin hours and expressed it
with 11 people.
Would that be accurate to saythat?
Speaker 2 (03:50):
Yeah, no, it's funny.
You're absolutely right too.
It was getting stressful.
The Facebook feed was thepolitical climate and the angst
was building.
For me personally, too, I feellike people in my inner circle
were bickering and not gettingalong.
I think I got the idea for thatsong in the shower, which is a
(04:13):
thing that often happens.
I feel like, which is funny,because I forgot that song
existed, but I guess that was acool way to bring all those
people together.
I had just had maybe about ayear at that point of doing
pretty good and wanted to get ona good page with everybody too.
(04:33):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
A year prior to that
and I like that you mentioned
the shower.
That seems to be the think tankfor all creatives, or it's like
this.
Well of shame, in my diction,the shower would be where I'd be
groaning, thinking what did Ido or say last night?
I thought the shower was agreat place for that, but a year
prior to that, we were intreatment together.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Yeah, 2016, yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Man, I was all locked
up.
I probably would have leftearly if we didn't spend time
together.
I had a lot of great connectionwith you.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Yeah, you helped me
too.
Honestly, man, you might havebeen the deciding factor of me
going to aftercare.
You were talking to me.
I still remember a clear as dayI was.
You know how it is right you goin and I'd done my three weeks
or whatever it was.
Four weeks were coming up.
I was like, man, I got stuff todo.
(05:33):
I can't Now.
It just seems so absurd thethings that we think we need to
go take care of.
You were like dude, I stillremember your exact wording.
You're like hey, ms man, maybeyou just need to go on a little
sabbatical, maybe you'll writesome music.
I think you might have justbeen trying to sell it to me.
(05:56):
You knew what you were doing.
Well, I was like, yeah, you'reprobably right, man.
It's funny, man, to think theself-importance and the ego and
whatever mind frame I was in atthat point, thinking whatever I
had going on was so important.
It just seems so just crazy nowto think that.
(06:18):
You know.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
But Wow, that's a lot
to consider, because it took me
a little longer after that.
I mean, I just kept makingmanifesting crisis, experiencing
someone's somewhat of realcrisis, and I didn't get sober
for a little while afterwards.
But you make a key note therein the sense that when you
(06:40):
realize you have substance usedisorder or that addiction,
you're not treating it like it'sthis little small problem and
it's in the way of the rest ofthe things I have to do.
Some people really have torealize this is the only problem
I need to solve.
The rest kind of is okay.
If I solve, all my attentiongoes to solving this.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
I wanted to start
linear for anyone maybe who's
listening that doesn't know you,and catch up where you are
currently in Nashville, correct?
Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
And your career
brought you there and your
career has always been music,great music, and I've always
felt flattered and kind of luckyto crash into you over a decade
ago with week-end or shoots andalways getting along, loving
your music and the message thatand how you carry yourself.
(07:41):
What you're always trying toconvey is pretty much, you know,
love, connection, friendship,loss, pain.
It's all wrapped up in yourmusic.
How did that begin?
How would you describe, maybe,your childhood and growing up?
And was there something thatoccurred that by the time you
(08:02):
met alcohol or opioids, that youfound relief to something that
already existed?
Would that be a way, or is it adifferent kind of story?
Speaker 2 (08:14):
No man, it's funny.
I've been thinking a lot aboutthat recently and if you had
asked me that question like twoor three years ago, I probably
would have just said oh man, youknow, I just had the gene and
it just that's it.
I just got bit by the bug.
But I've kind of been doing alot of inner work and have been
working with the therapist, likelast year particularly, and now
(08:36):
it's sort of making sense.
You know what I mean.
Some of it's sort of like oh, Ithink there was some stuff
going on inside me.
I will say that both my parentsdefinitely love me and I was
lucky to have that going on andthere were things that were
difficult, that I'm sureaffected the rest of my life or
(08:57):
affected how I process the world.
You know what I mean that nowI'm starting to be able to dig
into and see and it's sort ofnot a mystery the way that I
turned out, because I think alot of the time I was you know,
when you're like me or you, Iknow you had some sober time and
I had some sober time at apoint, I had like four years
(09:17):
sober at one point and when youlose that and you're just kind
of kicking yourself in the assand just like dwelling on it,
that kind of jumping all over.
But now everything's kind ofmaking sense to me.
Now you know what I mean.
But I will say that from thefirst time I drank alcohol or
did drugs which was like drinkand smoke weed very close to
(09:40):
each other it was I immediately.
From the first time ever.
It completely changed.
My whole course of my lifecompletely shifted.
It was like nothing that becameparamount to everything else.
You know, like there was nolike gray area whatsoever.
It was like on or off.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
That's it.
So when I hear that story, whenit comes to my personal
recovery not my clinical kind ofapproach at our aftercare but
that rings my bell Becauseaddiction for me is an attempt
to solve a problem that alreadyexisted Then I learned that
addiction is an accident or amental ability.
(10:20):
Not unlike you, if I was askedin early recovery or different
periods of my recovery, I wouldanswer this question differently
.
The same way you said that wasthat okay.
I would say these person's lifewas harder.
I don't have that kind oftrauma.
And then I started, you know,the last five years.
You see distinctions.
Let's give this word a broaderdescription to big traumas,
(10:45):
small traumas, the way thingsare processed, like you said, or
the way emotional pain isprocessed.
But what's really keen is anyonewho's artistic, which is a lot
of people with addiction andartistry is almost.
It's ingrained.
It's not mystery like a mysteryto me.
(11:08):
It's ingrained to perceptionand the way you relate and see
and interact with reality andthat there is severe conflict
with the way culture's tellingyou reality is and the way
you're reacting to it can beexpressed artistically.
Well, for a lot of us that camefrom pain, like before.
(11:32):
Artistry isn't cocaine.
It's not heroin.
There's an immediate buttonbeing pushed.
When I found alcohol, nicotine,I'm like oh, something's
missing.
It's not missing anymore.
It wasn't like I was messed up,it was like something was
missing and this was it 100%,yeah, man.
(11:54):
So you said your therapy didthat help flush out maybe some
ideas of that nature that maybeyou didn't reflect on before.
Is that what you're saying?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Yeah, kinda.
You know, what's funny too istherapy and some outside stuff
also made me realize that, likedude, as you know, I'm sure, but
like, getting sober is just thefirst layer and there's so many
other layers in there, withbehavior, patterns and, once
(12:26):
again, the way I perceive theworld, the way I interact with
the world, the self-destructivethings that I do,
self-destructive thinkingactions.
You know what precipitated thegoing to a therapist too is like
I'd gotten sober and then, youknow, gotten to this insane
(12:47):
relationship which any normalperson would have just been like
, you know, two or three monthsin would have just been like,
okay, this isn't healthy and I'mgonna leave.
Wow, dig it For me, I've been inthere for like a year and a
half longer than I could.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Don't quit.
Speaker 2 (13:02):
You know what I mean
and it's like so yeah, man, it's
just trying to, you know, peelall those layers or whatever Is
there a sadistic side to this.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Like you know, I used
to flirt with this that I'm
gonna run out of creative ideasif my life isn't chaotic Like,
almost like this Johnny Cashapproach to music.
Do you have any of that goingon in the realm?
That the well run dry if I'mnot writing and expressing music
from not only pain but chaos.
(13:33):
Do you carry any of that?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I think I do and I
think it's so.
I think maybe it's so deeplyrooted that it's almost like a
subconscious thing that is sosecond nature to me that I'm not
even aware at times that I'mdoing it.
You know what I mean.
Like it's just such in mynature to just like to just make
it and make life really hardfor myself.
(13:58):
You know what I mean Like.
And then when I see otherpeople that don't have that
problem, I'm baffled and amazedby their ability to just sail
through, you know, navigatethese things like no big deal
and it's like and I just kind ofhang out there.
Yeah, I think, I mean.
I think like here's the thing,dude, by the way, I don't know
(14:19):
if you know this, but so I alsorelapsed.
When we got out of treatment Ihad about a year in change,
maybe.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
And so I'm just
coming up on four years again
now.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Congrats, you know
like, so Me too.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
It's crazy, like,
like, how many times.
What's that?
Speaker 1 (14:36):
I'm right, behind you
four years.
Yeah, it was October.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Oh yeah, yeah,
february, man, that's awesome
and it's amazing how many timesand how much pain it takes for
me to really be able to look atmyself honestly and stuff, and
like I think there's people thatget this thing the first time
around and there's, I thinkthere's a lot of reasons for
that.
But then there's guys like mewho and now the great thing is
(15:03):
I'm able to help the next guythat does this, because I'm not
going to be the last guy thatrelapses or, you know, goes back
on it, but anyway, yeah, I justyeah, and we could do whatever
we want.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
It's a podcast.
I want to make a note there andreturn to it.
The idea of being in the musicindustry making a living off of
your art, but being available asa person in recovery music what
that would look like.
But I figured it might be bestto start.
(15:38):
We both know what addictionfeels like when it starts.
It feels like real connection,like even though, and when did
you feel the connection to music?
And what did that look like?
Like did someone else noticeyour artistry?
Did you know you had adifferent way to perceive the
(16:03):
world?
Or like we were talking aboutearlier, or did someone pick
this trade up in you and kind ofhelp you nurture it?
Speaker 2 (16:12):
That's a great
question, man.
And just to jump back to thething you just said about
connection real quick is likedude.
One of my least favoritesayings is that horrible saying
that my best day sober or myworst day sober is better than
my best day like drunk orwhatever.
Dude, that's saying I'm baffledin people's heads.
(16:32):
I'm like did you ever take ahit of acid and drink like a
12-pack?
No, that's in the early stages.
That's a pretty good day.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
That's a World War II
vets quote.
You didn't take MDMA and sit ona mountain with 10,000 people,
Right?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
But anyway, and you
know this, the question you just
asked is it's allinterconnected right, because I
come from a family which, Ithink you know, we're a lot of
musicians on both sides.
You know, my dad is an amazingguitar player and my aunt and
uncle play in the band OldFriends, which, if you're from
Scranton and you're in our ageor older, you know all about Old
(17:11):
Friends and you've probablyseen them play.
You know they're amazing andthe thing about it is my family
is full of like just nothing butlike loving great people who,
most of whom, didn't do what Idid.
The thing is that if it wasChristmas, thanksgiving, new
Year's, whatever it was, youknow, the guitars come out
around Nana's Kitchen Table andthey drink and they have a good
(17:36):
time and it looked awesome and Ijust wanted to be part of that
so bad.
When I was a little kid and Iwould see them sing in and
having a good time and all youknow, half the neighborhood is
over there, it was like I can'twait to do this, you know and
you know.
So I started practicing andsoon enough they were letting me
jam.
But I think one of the biggestmoments for me is my uncle Paul,
(18:01):
old Friends has this reunionevery year, right, and when we
were kids, I mean they stillhave it.
I guess they have it atMountain Sky now, but when we
were kids, this was the greatestday of the year period.
Like, we looked forward to theOld Friends reunion all year and
it used to be at HurricaneHills up in Clifford or
something, and there was I'llnever forget it, man.
There was 1400 people thatshowed up to this thing and when
(18:23):
Old Friends took a set break,my uncle let me and my cousin
Leah go on stage and play theset break.
And we get on stage and I was,I think, 11 years old maybe, and
we start playing.
You know, and I already knew,you know Jimi Hendrix albums and
stuff, and dude, the peoplejust came off the hill and stood
in front.
There's a video of it somewhere.
(18:45):
I, you know, I gotta find that.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Oh man, you gotta
find that.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
It was just that was.
There, was that moment for me,and then also cause that was
life changing.
I mean, there was no questionafter that experience, like what
I was gonna do with my life,you know, Like you know, when
you're like that age and youguys playing you know, you're
just like.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
You're gonna sell
insurance now.
You're gonna sell it?
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Yeah, no, but also,
man, you know, my dad took me
and this is actually a really,really cool story.
My dad took me to see theGrateful Dead like the Grateful
Dead with Jerry Garcia, twicewhen I was a little kid.
I was nine and 11 when I sawthe dead.
And I gotta give it to my dad,man, he was very responsible and
wasn't, you know, partaking inany drug activity.
(19:28):
Like you know, he had his Jeanjacket on and we got up in there
and he, like you know he was,he took care of me.
You know what I mean.
It wasn't like this loose, youknow, rainbow festival parents
type of thing.
You know, and I greatlyappreciate that to this day that
he was able to let me see that,but still in like a supervised
and very, you know, parental way.
(19:50):
Like here's the Grateful Deadand, dude, when you're nine
years old and you're down on thefloor at Giant Stadium and
you're watching, this guy justhit one note and the whole.
You know, dude, it was amazing,it was like it was the coolest
thing I've ever seen in myentire life.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
Was that the eighties
Was?
Would touch a gray like 92 and95.
92 and 95.
And your dad.
Just you know my, myRemembrance of him and meeting
him a couple times is a.
He has the presence of anaction hero.
He looks like an 80s actionstar.
He's got that.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
He looks like Chuck
Norris, doesn't he?
Yeah, yeah, he gets.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
he gets mistaken for
Chuck Norris, yeah and just
being around you, I just felthis presence.
Man, he's just such a warm andGuy, so it seemed like that was
always a really great influenceon your story Of your life.
Yeah, seeing that at an earlyage, and specifically the
(20:50):
Grateful Dead, that's, that'sunlike any other bands audience
in in regards to say, like theStones, or you know the
emergence of the Beatles, butthey dissipate.
For those long traveling jambands, they're the first,
they're it, they're, they're theband.
That was the first jam band.
(21:11):
And then, I think fish kind ofjust Emerges out of what was
left over, an audience that waswaiting to go somewhere else, or
a younger audience.
Why is that specificallydifferent, I think, for
musicians who are attracted tothe you know, bluegrass,
grateful Dead, how would that,how would that you describe the
(21:35):
difference?
For someone who didn'tunderstand that, I Think I lost
your brother.
I'm coming right back.
It just went down, but we'rerecording, we're back up.
(21:56):
It was like cutting it out.
My picture, my picture, is notthere.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
All good, it could be
my internet.
I don't know.
Man, I'm upstairs here, I Canstill hear you yeah, and it's
still recording.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
I think the camera
just went down, so I guess
that's a unique way to embracemusic bluegrass and jam.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Yeah, definitely, you
know.
I mean it was also like a lotof all my brothers and air
clapped in and the Beatles, ofcourse that was like that's like
my all-time favorite band.
But yeah, I mean, I think therewas something special about see
.
There's also something specialabout, you know, being like nine
years old and I didn't reallyknow what drugs were at that
point yet.
Maybe it heard in clings ofwhat they might be about or
(22:46):
whatever, but man did peopleseem really happy at that
concert.
You know that's a very uniquetype of situation.
You know, seen a band like thatrather than like your, you know
, average, like rock and rollband or something.
You know it's like a Just aunique situation.
Yeah, I don't know, it wasawesome.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
When did you first
get drawn to write and compose
your own music?
Like when did that first beginI?
Speaker 2 (23:18):
Think that began here
.
You know, man, here's anotherpart of that question that you
asked a minute ago.
Which I often think aboutrecently is that I started
writing really early on, like IRemember like making up little
melodies and guitar things likealmost as soon as I started
playing, and it's weird, it wasjust like it just was part of me
(23:40):
.
Like I never thought like, oh,I want to be a songwriter or or
maybe I should try that.
It just happened so naturally,man, you know, I just would come
up with little ideas.
And I remember like being likemaybe yes, we're not same age
eight and eight, nine, ten yearsold, and like getting going
upstairs with my like boombox,you know, back then, with my
(24:02):
like couple CDs or whatever, andjust like laying a blanket out
of my room and sitting likeIndian style with my guitar and
Just being like, alright, I'mgonna write a song now.
And like being super inspiredby like I think I'd like a
Steppenwolf album, a LedZeppelin album, a Queen album I
definitely had a CDC back inblack, but um it was mailed to
(24:24):
every American.
Yeah, yeah, dude those millingthings over those things 10 CDs
for a buck.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
You start nice that
raking you yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
That was it.
That was totally it.
That's how I got those CDs.
But my cousin, bubba BrendanQuinn, who's also a local
musician from Scranton, one timewe were at like a party, like
an outdoor little picnic.
My mom's friends were havinglike a picnic or something and
somebody started passing guitararound and, dude, I came up with
this riff that I still rememberto this day.
It's really cool, like I wouldhonestly still put it in a song,
(24:54):
like right now.
And I was like I don't know howit came about, but I started
playing it for my cousin.
I'm like, yeah, check this out.
And, dude, like his reactionwas, like he was like it was
like priceless, like I guess Ididn't realize, kind of like you
know, like it would, kind ofhow you know, like it just seems
(25:14):
so like such second nature forme to like write something like
that.
He was so blown away by it thathis reaction almost like
weirded me out.
I was like why is he reactinglike this?
And then I guess I startedthinking, well, damn, I guess
I'm a songwriter, like I guess,like I'm good at this, you know,
I don't know, it's funny.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
So, with the story of
addiction, the other story of
expression and knowing With somekind of certainty, at least a
path forward, that you want tobe a musician, you're going to
be a musician, but addiction iskind of in tow to this wagon.
When did it, when did you firstfirst start seeing signs that
(25:55):
this can interrupt the life youmay want?
Yeah, you know, man, this islike a.
Speaker 2 (26:05):
Yeah, I mean the
whole thing.
It's crazy now, like that.
I'm getting older and all thisstuff is starting to actually
make not only make sense, butI'm also starting to completely
accept, like, my path and whatit it, what it was and what it
is now and where it's heading.
There was a long time ago I wasbeating myself up because I
(26:26):
really I mean, for lack of abetter term I really showed my
ass.
I mean addiction, like onwhatever type of public you know
stage I was on man, like therewasn't one person who didn't
know that I had a drug problem,but um, but me, I may, we can
even get into that, but man, Iwill say that.
Well, my cousin Leah, you know,I was like I'm not gonna be a
(26:49):
musician.
Well, my cousin Leah, you knowthe one I just said that I
played the old friends unionwith you know he died of a drug
overdose when she was 19 and Iwas 15 and that really, you know
, did a number on on our familyand and, and I know, for me
personally, I was like man, I'mnot doing any hard drugs anymore
(27:10):
, you know, because I sniffedheroin with her twice when I was
like 13, 14 years old, which iscompletely insane, and but I
didn't like get addicted at thatpoint or anything like that.
So I just sort of, you know,would smoke some weed and drink
my beers in high school.
But, man, when I moved toFlorida I went to the school
(27:31):
called full sale down in Floridaand man, it was weird I did I
was just thinking about this theother day like my first like
month or two there.
It was like totally normal,obviously, you know, I figured
out real quick that when you gogrow up in Pitston or or you
know, scranton, wilkes-barrearea, for lack, you know, for
(27:51):
that matter, I mean, dude, wewere like professional partiers
by like 10th grade.
Yeah, like really, and like whenI got down there I just assumed
that like the other kids didthat kind of stuff and I quickly
realized that like my roommateshad never done like a keg stand
or a beer, bong or any of theselike things that I was fully,
you know, capable of doing inlike nice, you know, like we.
(28:13):
And so we just started partyinglike so hard and I and I sort
of like Kind of I probably gotlike a kick out of the fact that
I was like showing these, youknow, these kids had to like
party properly.
Yeah, I don't know, but, um,but dude, yeah, I, we started
doing a lot of cocaine and thenmy one roommate brought heroin
(28:35):
home and, dude, I, I don't knowwhat happened inside my head,
but I was drunk, I was so deadagainst doing heroin like so
dead against it, and but I wasalready drunk and my thought
process I'll never forget therewas there's a party going on my
house.
There was a line of peoplegoing into the bathroom which I
assume was to do coke, which youknow, in Florida, at a College
(28:58):
party, I'm sure it's gonna bepretty readily available and I
like went to like, hey, you know, let me in on that, my one
buddy was like dude, dude, dude,wait, they're, they're not
doing coke, it's heroin.
And in my drunken state I waslike well, I did it before
what's, what's one more time,you know and man.
I sniffed that bump a heroineand dude.
I woke up the next morning.
It was like where did it comefrom?
(29:18):
How much is it?
Who do I have to call?
How can I?
Like it was like Another switchwent off in my head and like
man, within three months this iscrazy.
Actually, within three monthsof that day, those kids so I was
living with, imparting with,had kicked me out of that
apartment.
I moved in with a stripper andI blew through every last saved
(29:42):
dollar that I had you know tolive off of at college and I was
already doing like all types ofillegal activity to get money.
It was, you know.
It just got absolutely insane,like real fast.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
That's fast, I Guess
if you would, just so I
understand.
Let me summarize it full sale.
First off is it's a school ofart, right Five film and you
have some audio, audioengineering like a video game
stuff marketing.
Yeah, yeah really high creativeenvironment In Florida with a
(30:16):
bunch of you know squares or thenerds.
In comes to the elder statesmen, who's already in midlife if
you're from Scranton that yourmidlife crisis starts when
you're 18 and this scenariorises up where you snort heroin
and in drunken state you knowlittle more adverse to risk.
(30:39):
Let me try it.
I've already done it.
That was years ago.
It must not be as addictive.
It could be something socialfor me.
When I hear that, I hear someonewho's now getting dopamine from
, say, alcohol, cocaine, let youfeel alert.
Makes connection or at leastconscious life Not feel separate
(31:02):
from rumination.
And when you're not usingrumination, is this this, this
unsaddled brain of thinking ofthe life that should?
What are other people thinking?
Not being able to be present ina room because it's
uncomfortable, and then in comesthat snort a heroin.
You know both of those systemsare two little little difference
(31:22):
Distincts systems in the brainto receive those two different
tracks of drugs dopamine andthen the opioid reward system.
And when you get addicted toheroin the bonding happens not
from so much physical pain, it'sthe emotional pain.
The opioid reward system isjust waiting there, your
(31:43):
soothing pain, and it might havebeen pain you can't even
articulate and that that bondingis Extremely like it's.
That is addiction, like whenyou want to talk about it, maybe
just as the physical, theneurological play.
But Resolving that physicallydoesn't solve the problem of
addiction.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Dude, everything you
just said man is so hit the nail
on that.
You know, like, dude, I stillam like unveiling, like the, you
know, like going through theprocess of realizing, like how
uncomfortable I did feel in myown skin and like how, being in
(32:27):
a room full of people, I couldstill feel completely out of
place, All those isms that wetalk about, man.
You know, dude, that bump ofheroin on a belly full of beer,
just, dude, it did something.
It fixed me.
It literally stopped my brain,it completely.
(32:48):
It was like, oh my God, Ididn't know that I could feel I
could be okay, like, really,dude, and like this might sound
crazy too, but I think it'srelevant.
You know, I was never one tolike dig too much into like
childhood or blaming or, youknow, like trying to figure out
who's fault.
Who's fault is it that I'm notbut dude one?
Speaker 1 (33:08):
time.
Sorry, but I always tellnewcomers to blame the sun.
If we didn't have a ball of gasas our neighbor, none of this
excitement would have started.
So you got someone to blame.
Blame a fucking star.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Right, but so check
this out.
So, dude, I don't know why, Iwas like through therapy, like
this became forefront of my mind, but, like when I was in first
grade, right, one time I got introuble for doing something.
I didn't really even realizelike I was doing anything wrong,
like it's a silly story, butlike the teacher like yelled at
(33:43):
me and I really did, I had noidea, like why I was being in
trouble, like and it terrifiedme.
But there was that situation.
But another time, I think, mycousin shaved his head and I
wanted to shave my head too,because I thought he was super
cool and he was older than meand I wanted to do everything he
did and I shaved my head and Ithink, like maybe I have a funny
(34:05):
looking like head.
I don't know.
This is the last time I shavedmy head and I was six years old
and I went to school with, youknow, like kids, you know, right
, like kids shave their head.
You know like just cut yourhair like real short, you know,
and, dude, the kids made fun ofme.
The kids in second grade calledme alien.
They were like in, you know, inthe like the lunch line, like
alien, you know, and like dude,I think that like was part of
(34:29):
like you know, the me startingto feel like uncomfortable in my
skin, or like the world wasn'ta safe place for me, or the.
You know, maybe this willunravel a different way and
maybe it wasn't as big of a deal, but I remember, like putting a
guard up.
After that, I remember beinglike like you know, like just
sort of like I don't know man, Idon't know, no, I when you do
(34:51):
the bump of heroin, it fixes allof that it does.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
And I think that's
where families who have someone
that is in severe addiction, orseeing all these irrational
consequences from an addiction,especially when it comes to
heroin or opioids, like how didthis happen?
What they're not understandingis they're only seeing, you know
(35:17):
, the tip of the iceberg, like Isee this actual problem of drug
use, but you're not seeing noteveryone's a drug addict and
there's a very specific reasonwhy this has happened.
It's an attempt to solve thatproblem of not feeling like a
fucking alien.
Now, that's a distinct hazingand accusation.
(35:40):
It's almost dehumanizingbecause not only are you
different, you're not ourspecies.
Sure, yeah, there's, there's,there's texture to that.
And that could two people couldhave the same event happen and
one walks away with trauma andone doesn't.
And the one who doesn't alreadyhad connection.
Now, it takes about eight yearsfor, you know, any mammal in the
(36:03):
last 10,000 years to develop apersonality, and personalities
are developed by our role withothers.
Like it's, it's, it's, it's aman.
You manifest it, youmanufacture it by your position
with other people, becauseyou're only offering a
personality to others.
So when that feels rejected,you only create your true
(36:25):
personality.
I would venture to say is isthis inner life that's, you know
the intimacy is it's toopainful or scary or risky to
share with other people and alot of that could be driven by
an ego instead of an authenticself.
That's where I myself I feellike I've experienced that was
(36:46):
my kind of interruption and what, what, what.
What we can only assume wouldbe a balanced life, homeostasis
and my addiction made that rightLike, and it was worth the
consequences for a long time totake.
Okay, I'm just a drunk.
I know what it's like not tohave alcohol.
Fuck that.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah, dude, yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Um, your music kind
of took off regionally and you,
you had a, a following andpeople loved it.
When when was these first kindof attempts at recovery or a
failed attempt happening?
How would you summarize thatand how it related to what you
(37:32):
were playing at the time yourown music, yeah?
Speaker 2 (37:36):
I mean, dude, it's a
great, it's a.
You know it's a cool story.
Like man, I ended up at ClearBrook like probably for like the
third time I really had burnedit to the ground.
You know like really bad, likeit was.
It was like you know, nowhereto nowhere to live.
Um, you know already been passedfrom family member to family
member, robbed them, didhorrible, unspeakable things to
(37:58):
my family that I'm still, youknow, not quite, you know still
processing.
But, um, I became willing to goto aftercare.
Um, they sent me to a a halfwayhouse down in Littitz, pa.
Ended up down there.
All the isms of um, of what wedo when we're untreated.
(38:21):
You know when, when you takeaway my alcohol and drugs, I am
left feeling like a raw nerve,and especially when you're
living in a house with like 20some guys and I was grateful
that.
You know I got introduced tolike a 12 step program and um
ended up moving to York,pennsylvania, and ended up, um,
there was this golden age inYork, pa, man and the people
(38:43):
that were living there know whatit was like.
That was like unlike anythingI'd ever seen.
Man, the, the meetings were,were massive.
The recovery community wasmassive.
There was really really reallygood recovery there and I got
linked up with some people thatreally greatly altered the
course of my life and I was ableto start living a productive
(39:05):
like.
I got a, um, tuesday night gigUm, this is actually funny.
No, funny side note I got aTuesday night gig at this place
in York where I played thereevery Tuesday night and it was
the first time I ever had like asolo gig, like a residency, and
I sort of you know like cut myteeth and and learn how to play
and learn how to entertain acrowd at that place.
But funny thing is, when you're,you know, in recovery and all
(39:27):
your friends are in recovery,like the bartenders in some of
these places that I used to playwould be like they would be
baffled after the night.
They'd be like you brought.
There was 35 people here to seeyou play last night and every
single one of them ordered asprite.
Who are these people, you know?
Like they couldn't understandit.
It was so funny, man, but um,but man, I was able to start
(39:52):
actually like getting on trackand like pursuing some of my
dreams and like started writinga lot and um, and man, I wrote
some really really cool songs inthat first couple of years
there, when I was sober, and Iremember I got my own, my own
apartment on a market street inYork and I'd sit at my kitchen
table and write songs and thosesongs later became um the East
(40:13):
Hope Avenue album, which I stilllove.
I mean, my voice sounds superyoung and and, uh, you know,
obviously there's stuff that Iwould change, but there's some
really really creative coolideas on that album.
I think for you know, for likea you know whatever, just uh,
you know a songwriter to,there's some pretty.
I think there's some prettyneat stuff on that album.
Speaker 1 (40:33):
Yeah, um, upwards and
onwards.
Uh, do you remember our firstshoot was in the marquee
building, marquee art and framebuilding before the coffee shop
at Deso was there, it was empty,yeah dude.
Yeah, we set up, uh, we weregoing to do green screen, then
we just shot it regular, uh,with snowflake, was it?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
uh, snowflakes, uh
yeah, yeah, you know another
funny side note.
So like I knew who you werebefore then because I'd been
like hanging at the open mic,like at the bog and and I knew,
like you know, pat, and um, dude, this is actually kind of funny
too.
Like you, you were like, uh,you're just a funny, funny, uh,
(41:14):
you know, like outward dude, andwhen I first met you and Pat,
you were singing um the uh,chris Isaac song at the bog.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
That's my.
I'm a one trick pony man.
That's what I got.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
I so thought you were
.
You were like smashed drunk,like I had no idea that you were
sober, which makes it so muchbetter, like so much funnier.
Speaker 1 (41:35):
Oh yeah, we that that
open mic will never return.
That was like 10 years of justlike six variations of classes a
freshman to a senior year class, of all kinds of people just
going down there from standuppoetry, music, jams like people.
There was no set, people justsat on the stage and pick
(41:55):
something up and that place wasall that.
That was awesome.
That crew that was going downthere, I mean they could jam.
They'd be playing till four inthe morning.
Just rip it.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Yeah, yeah, I was fun
.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
So I want to kind of
almost come quickly to current
events without a slow draw.
How long have you been inNashville now?
Speaker 2 (42:23):
It's crazy.
It's been about 10, maybe five,in a couple weeks actually.
I moved here January, likefourth or fifth, I think, right
after New Year's in 2019.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
So you move down.
We you've had periods ofsobriety, we've both experienced
that and treatments, and you'regoing down there out of
opportunity.
You're a musician.
What was the initial draw downthere and where was your head
With recovery when you arrivedin Nashville?
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Yeah, so amazing
story man.
So I could I say the name of atreatment center, or is that?
Speaker 1 (43:02):
yeah, no, I know we
this is this an open book here.
He could say whatever you want.
Speaker 2 (43:06):
Well, dude, I mean,
you know, there was a guy named
Andy Pace who and he doesn't runanymore, but was running this
place called Little Creek and,dude, he, like, he likes that he
saved my life, like literally,man, when at the start of this
podcast, when you're not, youand I were talking about you
know like you were like talkingme into going to long-term
treatment.
I end up at Little Creek forthree months and the the kids
(43:29):
that do so.
Funny, because it's a youngmen's Facility and I was 33 and
my first night there, thefriggin kids nicknamed me
middle-aged Mike.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
Well, like if it
comforts you, I just left a
provider's meeting.
Gets who.
The presenter was Little Creekand the average stay there is
now guys in their 30s.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
So oh, wow.
Well, dude, yeah, it was one ofthose things where I like it
was a really like you know, likehit you between the eyes type
of situation where I was likeholy crap, I'm not the young guy
treatment anymore.
So anyway, I'm keep giving youthese long answers.
But um, andy was the one thatwas like, hey, mike, you should
(44:14):
think about going to Nashville.
And dude, it's so funny, I waslike, wow, I was like Nashville,
I don't want to move toNashville, like and and then
like, so I end up, like you know, stay in there and complete in
the treatment.
I was like working on thisalbum and and, um, dude, he was
like you should go down therefor a week.
He's like I'm gonna help youout, like I'm gonna Like he sent
(44:35):
me down here for a week.
Man, like wow.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
He's a special guy.
He really is.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
He's a very special
like yeah, I mean, it's like
he's he could see, you know, youknow he could like see it
better than I could, or whatever.
And I came down and there'sthis other guy, bob Lewis, that
Is from our area, that's, youknow, not in recovery, things
like kind of regular.
Actually he did, you know, outof just the choice.
You know he's sober now too,but like obviously didn't have,
(45:02):
you know, problems like you're Idid.
But um, he was living down hereand so I linked up with him and
, dude, it just quickly becameapparent that, um, that I wasn't
getting any younger and that ifI wanted to kind of Like move
forward, you know, like, listen,man, there's no judgment like I
had a really good life inPennsylvania, right, and I was
(45:22):
playing some cool places and Icould have done really well for
myself up there.
But I knew it was one of thosecrossroads where I was also
dating like a really wonderful,wonderful person at the time who
I'd broken up with when I metyou in treatment, and then we
got back together and I thinkwe're probably back together
about a year or so and I justrealized that that, um, I think
(45:46):
we were kind of wanting to gotwo different paths in life and
we had like a very Mature,mutual cool breakup.
That was like very, notdramatic.
It was just like hey, you'regoing this way and I'm going
this way and I wish you the best.
And it was totally cool and andshe's, you know, like all her
dreams are, you know, comingtrue.
Now she's a doctor now, right.
Speaker 1 (46:07):
Or something.
This nerve no nothing like that.
Speaker 2 (46:09):
I mean she's you
might be thinking of somebody
else, but Family and it gotmarried and and seems to have
like just wonderful peoplearound her and and I'm really
happy for.
But I, in turn, once thatrelationship ended, I knew that
it was my window.
I was like this is it like if Idon't go right now, I'm never
gonna go again?
And dude, other than gettingsober.
Moving down here was thegreatest decision I've ever made
(46:33):
in my entire life.
I am so happy that I did it.
You know, like man, I couldn'teven begin to tell you.
Do you have a sense of home now?
Speaker 1 (46:42):
It's five years.
Like you feel you ever?
You know the magnetism justfrom being a mammal that you're.
You're kind of home?
Yeah, because I've been toplaces and I lived in places for
certain periods of times whereI've never I've still felt
upside down.
Yeah, would you say.
Nashville feels like home now,yeah, dude, it's, it's.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
It's definitely man.
I'm live here in East Nashvilleagain.
I was on the other side of townfor a year and a half and move
back and and dude, it'sdefinitely home.
Yeah, it's, you know.
I don't know if I'm gonna growold here.
You know like I'll be wantingto live here.
I'm in my 70s or whatever youknow, I probably want to maybe
live somewhere a little morescenic and beautiful or in the
mountains or something, but forright now, yeah man, this is
(47:24):
definitely home.
I feel so good.
Yeah man, this is definitelyhome.
I feel super at home here thegranola opera.
Speaker 1 (47:34):
Tell me about it.
What is this place?
Speaker 2 (47:36):
Grandola opera.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:38):
Oh man, it's funny.
Yeah, I mean, you know it'sWell here, dude, let me just be
really honest with you right?
I never listened to countrymusic Like dude, like.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
I know, no cash or
like Hank Jr.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
Well, dude, of course
I liked Merle Haggard, johnny
Cash and Wayland, of course youknow very like listen to, like
you know, just the popular songsby the Sure, and I love Marty
Robbins too.
But as far as like moderncountry music, I mean, dude,
when froggy one-on-one wouldcome on, I mean I couldn't
change the channel fast.
I mean I mean I'm just, I'mjust being honest, like now, you
(48:19):
know, now it's weird because Iknow a lot of the people that
are playing on those songs andstuff.
You know, I mean that's weird.
Yeah, like I, my one buddy, Ican always tell it's him.
I'm like, oh, that's you know,that's that's all you know.
Like he plays on all that stuffand I could, I could hear it a
lot of the time.
I just heard him the othernight.
I was at this ice skating thing, weirdly enough at the opera.
There you go and a prelin, butI'm, granola opera is awesome,
(48:43):
man, I saw it.
So I live with this guy.
Well, I don't, I live above thisguy, bruce Bouton, I've known
place, who is, um, you know,look him up.
He's one of the most legendarypedal steel players of all time
and he played last night At thebluebird with this guy who has
one of the craziest repertoireof songs I've ever heard, like
(49:04):
you know, like 25 number onehits and has just duty just
wrote a song for Ringo and the.
The band director and the pianoplayer from the granola opera
was there and they were talkingabout they just recorded this
track for like Ringo to sing onand it was man.
It was so cool just sittingthere listening to these guys
talk about that stuff, you know.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
But and miss.
Would these guys be consideredlike the studio players of
Nashville, like that, that, thatthe the labor force of the
music scene of Nashville?
How would you describe that tojust a conventional listener?
Oh, what is going on in thiscity when it comes to studio,
(49:45):
studio players, gigs, what?
Why is it uniquely differentthan the rest of the country?
Speaker 2 (49:51):
Oh Dude, there's
nothing like it, man, there's
absolutely nothing like it.
Here's the thing.
It takes a while and for meobviously there was a pandemic
in the middle, so it probablyequals about three and a half
years rather than five.
You know, we're all luck, luck,kind of stuff, but, um, man,
right now it is the land ofopportunity.
Man, it's unbelievable.
(50:12):
Like there's the whole scene ofsongwriters right and like
publishers and people gettingpublishing deals and people that
their goal is to write songsfor other people, to cut Not the
whole world, which I've kind ofdipped my toes, and I actually
have two songs Coming out on amajor label here and the next
couple months on big loud that I, that I co-wrote, and you know
(50:35):
Joey Moy, who's one of thebiggest producers in the world
is, is like loves these twosongs I wrote.
So I kind of dip my toes inthat world.
That's kind of starting to payoff.
And then there's the people whowant to be artists, who are
Often playing like songwriterrounds and doing all that stuff,
but more trying to get recorddeals or, you know, trying to.
(50:57):
You know, do the whole artistthing right.
Like you know, build a team,get a, get a good manager, all
those things, booking agent.
And then there's the studiomusicians who Are like wizards
man.
These guys that play a lot ofpop, country and a lot of other
stuff, man, are some of thegreatest Musicians in the world
that you've probably never heardof.
(51:18):
But they're literally likewizards man.
Like the guy.
You know who I'm.
I stay up above here.
I got a really sweet spot herein Inglewood.
He's played on the biggestrecord, like dude.
He played on all the GarthBrooks, all those massive Shania
Twain records.
It's funny for me because, likeyou know, northeast PA, like
like used to hang out at Jins.
(51:39):
You know, like up there inFactoryville and all the songs
that would come on the radio,like like boot, scootin, boogie
and all these.
Like Dude he played on all the.
I know the parts.
You know what I mean.
It's so funny.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
Oh it's.
It's gonna feel like you'reliving in history, like in the
sense that even when I was outin LA or going to film festivals
to feel like holy shit, like myfavorite part of history is
entertainment, or well, you know, at those times, to be in
Nashville, I'm music andstarting to hear someone's riff
that you were just with.
That's a fun life, that's aninteresting life.
(52:13):
Not everyone's afforded thatopportunity, or at least given
the clarity.
Just to go after it Like thisis what I want to do.
Is that a source of gratitudefor you all the time that you
got to pursue this?
Speaker 2 (52:29):
Dude, this morning I
woke up I will have a porch, a
nice little porch here where thesun comes up in the morning,
and I sat out there and I dothese the Wim Hof breathing.
I don't know if you know aboutWim Hof sure do.
I love that guy loved doing that.
And, dude, I was flooded bysuch a sense of gratitude that
my life is where it is, like Iwouldn't want to be in any other
(52:50):
place.
I don't want to be any otherperson.
I'm so grateful to be where I'mat right now, man, and like
it's a huge source of gratitudeand like, real quick to sorry
the dogs gonna start parkinghere I might have to let him out
, but um the um.
The one thing that's crazy forme in it ties in with Andy
Payson.
It ties in with get sober isthat, dude, when you start
(53:11):
following that feeling in yourgut, like when you you know when
, when getting sober allows youto like be aware of, like your
intuition and what your guts onyou to do, like amazing things
happen because, like when Ifirst moved here, man, my living
situation got turned upsidedown at the last minute.
I moved in with this guy Ididn't know named Bure, who's
like an outlaw country singer,and and then I end up writing a
(53:33):
record with him and I moved intothe old bedroom of a guy named
Saul Littlefield, who's now oneof the biggest session guitar
players in town.
He was had just played on allthe Luke comb stuff and was
blowing up and so he moved outand, you know, got his own place
and then I quickly linked upwith him and the chain of events
, man, that followed, likeLeading up to this very day and
leading up to the record that Ijust put out.
(53:54):
It's incredible, man, like it'sabsolutely incredible, like you
know, and I don't really talkabout this too much and I wanted
to like explain it in a betterway.
But, like, man, that record Idid, you know that I released
earlier this year, like just toget to do that and get to play
with those Musicians, I meanjust the cast of characters,
like on that album, like theseguys are like my heroes, you
(54:15):
know, like, sorry, the dogs makeit.
Speaker 1 (54:19):
He wants to go out
Lay down for one minute, but
Well it's, we're getting almostto the hour and I want to, and
I'd love to talk to you again.
So you, you're living,breathing, working musician in a
mecca of Some of the world'sgreatest history of music,
studio recordings and Americansounds.
(54:42):
Let's rewind one second yourfour-year sober.
You pursue to dream, you'reworking In the city that's
making that happen, and and andyour talent carried you.
There was a time where you didnot feel that way, that you were
in a treatment center, be itwith me or someone else, where
(55:03):
you feel Totally defeated andyou had a lot to express.
Even in the midst of an act ofaddiction or early recovery,
what would you say to a youngmusician that's 22, 33 and feels
completely fucking crushed anddefeated?
Why would you tell them not toquit you the idea of music or
(55:25):
recovery?
If they were, they were acreative type, what do you have
to offer them?
Speaker 2 (55:30):
I love that question,
joe.
I think for me, a lot, of, alot of times, you know, people
that meant well, would and justby I think they meant well.
But a lot of times when I wouldget sober in my early 20s and I
would tell people I wanted tobe a musician, they would be
like, oh you better pick adifferent career, you better,
you better go pull out, that youbetter go learn how to be a
(55:53):
roofer.
And it would crush me insidebecause, dude, I never wanted to
do anything else.
I'm one of the lucky people.
I knew what I wanted to do, youknow, since I was a little kid,
there was no question, and sonow that I feel like a tide has
turned in the recovery community, I feel like it's better
understood that one of thebiggest things that I Learned
(56:15):
that I am grateful that I wastaught was that when you're
spiritually fit and when youtake care of the problems that
need to be taken care of, andwhen you you know if it's a
12-step program or whatever yourpath is, you can go anywhere in
the world.
You know we don't.
I didn't get sober to hideunder a rock and I certainly
didn't get sober To not pursuemy one true passion in life and
(56:40):
man.
When I had met you, joe, dudethis is crazy, I know I'm I talk
a lot, but when I'd met you, Iwas on the road, not when I met
you, but when we were intreatment together.
I was on the run from the stateof New Jersey.
I had warrants for my arrest.
I literally had left the state.
I'd been arrested four times ina row.
I was arrested with 16 bags ofheroin standing in front of a
(57:02):
school.
That was one of my charges and Iyou know, like, dude, that the,
the things that were like the,the level of hopelessness that I
felt.
My girlfriend broke up with me,the law was after me, I was
definitely going to jail.
The way that I felt inside thatday.
Man, if there's someone elsethat, like, feels like that
(57:25):
right now, oh my god, if I couldjust like Give them just a
fraction of what I like, thehope and and and peace and, and,
you know, fulfillment that Ifeel in my life right now, man,
to just stick it out and justput one foot in front the other
man.
It's so worth it to get soberman.
No man, and and dude, I've beento rehab 13 times, so like if
(57:46):
it you know, dude, sometimes ittakes 13 times.
You just can't give up.
Speaker 1 (57:50):
You cannot give up
dude, I Thank you for that and
you know as we.
As we're closing this, I justwant to give you insight, or a
theory of mind, of how I'vealways viewed you and how I
viewed you in rehab, when Iwould see you Struggling outside
(58:11):
where you saw me struggling.
I was sober 14 years.
I've always viewed you as awinner.
No, it was a winner.
What do I mean by that?
A person who cares about people.
You get as lost as me, but youalways had a heart.
If you could see the Way youlook to other people, even in
your worst moments, I alwaysthought you're a really warm,
(58:36):
gentle and kind person Even whatyou described from that, and I
think that comes through in yourmusic.
I was really happy to catch upwith you today and I hope we
could do this again.
I was looking forward to it,and if anyone wants to see you
down in Nashville, you can findMs On Facebook, his Instagram
(58:59):
all his gigs are up there.
Some beautiful pictures.
Unbelievable shows have beenhappening now in the last three
years that just make me smile.
Speaker 2 (59:08):
Well, thanks, man,
and right back at you, joe.
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Yeah, so I'll be in
touch.
I'll grab you if anything'scoming up the the pike or
anything exciting that we couldtalk about, let's.
Let's jump back on.
Speaker 2 (59:22):
Man, I would love to
anytime.
I'm really happy, you know,it's awesome to see what you're
doing, man, and it's so cool toboth be on the other side of
this thing now you know, and beable to, to share and give
somebody else some hope.
Speaker 1 (59:33):
So no doubt I'll talk
to you soon, miss.
Love you, man.
Speaker 2 (59:36):
Okay, love you, buddy
.
Speaker 1 (59:37):
I I'd like to thank
you for listening to another
episode of all better, to findus on all better, dot FM, or
listen to us on Apple Podcasts,spotify, google Podcasts,
stitcher, I heart radio andAlexa.
Special thanks to our producer,john Edwards, an engineering
(01:00:02):
company, 570 drone.
Please like or subscribe to uson YouTube, facebook, instagram
or Twitter and, if you're not,on social media You're awesome.
Looking forward to seeing youagain.
And remember, just becauseyou're sober doesn't mean you're
(01:00:23):
right.