August 27, 2024 • 65 mins
Amy Durham's journey from a childhood overshadowed by her father's alcoholism to becoming the CEO of Brookdale Premier Addiction Recovery is nothing short of remarkable. As she opens up about her own battles with liver disease and addiction, Amy's resilience and commitment to breaking the stigma around substance use disorder come to the forefront. This episode invites you to explore her personal story and the profound impact it has had on her professional mission to elevate addiction care through innovative, evidence-based practices.
Listen as we unravel the complexities of navigating life’s challenges and the harrowing descent into addiction. Amy recounts the darkest moments, including severe liver failure and a near-death experience, shedding light on the physical and emotional toll of alcoholism. Her journey to recovery is marked by a strong support system and the transformative power of community – a testament to the critical role that camaraderie and mutual encouragement play in healing.
We also take a forward-looking perspective on the future of addiction treatment. Amy discusses how Brookdale is pioneering new approaches, integrating technology and AI to enhance patient care and prevent relapse. From biometric data to frequent check-ins, discover how these advancements are reshaping the landscape of addiction recovery. Whether you’re on a personal recovery journey o
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and thanks again for listening to another
episode of All Better.
I'm your host, joe VanWee.
Today's guest is Amy Durham.
Amy is the CEO of BrookdalePremier Addiction Recovery.
As the Chief Executive Officer,amy brings a renewed vision to
Brookdale, embodying the corevalues that set Brookdale apart
(00:24):
compassion, empathy anddedication.
Amy has over 15 years of seniormanagement experience in
educational leadership, inaddition to six years as a
corporate director of care andtreatment centers.
Beyond her extensive backgroundin operational oversight,
strategic planning andorganizational development, she
(00:55):
holds a master's degree from theUniversity of Mississippi and
is a woman in active long-termrecovery.
Amy is passionate about reducingstigma associated with
substance use disorder and hopesto strengthen Brookdale's
relationships with othertreatment providers and increase
their national presence.
Driven by the belief thateveryone deserves the
opportunity to receivecomprehensive, quality treatment
, amy continuously aims toelevate Brookdale's standard of
(01:17):
care through effectiveleadership in utilizing the most
innovative and evidence-basedpractices.
Alongside her innate ability toinspire and empower those she
leads, amy's personal journeyhas resulted in an extraordinary
capacity to connect andempathize with those struggling
with addiction.
I was taught early on that Ican't keep it if I don't give it
(01:40):
away.
In her own words, hercommitment has become the
leading example for theBrookdale team has been
exemplified through theenvironment of healing she has
created for their patients.
Outside of work, amy enjoysreading, exercising and going to
the beach and spending timewith her family and friends.
We get to discuss many topicswith Amy today.
(02:01):
One, her personal story and thestruggles she had medically
with liver disease and failure.
How long that road to healingwas, her entry into the field of
substance use disordertreatment and her current
position in the future ofBrookdale Leads us down a path
(02:22):
to start discussing the spaceand role of AI in drug and
alcohol treatment.
I'm excited for you to meet AmyDurham.
Amy, thanks for being availableand coming on All better.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Thanks for having me.
I wanted to talk about ahandful of things, but sometimes
I like to start with who areyou and your personal story,
which I've only heard throughother people, and it's quite
moving and compelling.
(03:05):
So, amy, maybe you cansummarize where you grew up, a
little bit about your childhood.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
So I actually my dad was a resort developer, so I
moved 13 times when I was a kidand our roots were always in the
South.
My dad was from Mississippi, mymom was from Iowa and we went
wherever my father's job wouldtake us, so all up and down the
eastern seaboard and out west aswell.
(03:33):
Some but we most people when Italk about it say were you
military and we were definitelynot military, but we moved
around as such.
We were definitely not military, but we moved around as such.
So growing up, you know, had tobe really well adjusted, always
, you know, in new and differentenvironments from a young age.
But my grandparents inMississippi, that was home base
(03:56):
for me, so I lived with themevery summer, just because I
like to pretend like I was anonly child and you know I'm a
Southern girl at heart, so thatwas, that was kind of where my
heart was and you?
Speaker 1 (04:08):
you were not an only child no, I'm.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I am number three out of four and so this time alone
would it?
Speaker 1 (04:16):
would it be a sense of peace and ease to not be
around such noise and activityall the time?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
when you say something like that, yes, I mean
from my earliest memories myfather's alcoholism was very
present in our lives and so kindof going to either
grandparents' house actually,you know, was a place for me to
kind of escape from some of that.
And you know, my father was awonderful provider and my mom
(04:46):
was a wonderful mother, but wedefinitely had a lot of chaos
growing up.
You know what addiction does tohouseholds and families, and so
that was a way for me to try toget away from it all.
And you know, be a kid again.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, yeah, that seems like a special retreat.
It's amazing what I feel wasnormalized not only living in
Scranton, in your Irish or yourCatholic, whatever culture you
emerge from and what you feel isnormal just because of your
proximity and what you want toremember from childhood.
(05:20):
In my family we turned traumaor just the strangeness of my
dad's addiction into humor andyou get so used to delivering
that story especially in yourown cohort or people that are
familiar with this as just okay,that's just comical.
(05:41):
But in my twenties I saw itchanged.
In my thirties and now that I'man adult with children, I look
back with an entirely differentlens.
It's not like bitter or likeaha, I figured it all out.
Now I know what my childhoodmeant.
But I look at it through thislens and tell me if you relate,
their brains are just so.
(06:02):
I don't know.
They have their ownintelligence, without volition,
that they're constantly seeking,without your permission, a
balance, an environment and whenit's interrupted, say traveling
a lot, be it a military family.
But you know you were travelingfor resorts.
Someone has an active addiction.
(06:23):
Know you were traveling forresorts.
Someone has an active addictionnot having the homeostasis or a
balanced environment you and Iseem to share this view that
that's what you could point toas trauma Not having that
stability.
Would that be something youlook back and think, okay, this
(06:44):
might be the seeds, in the earlyearmark, this environment of
something that addiction wouldsoothe.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So for me, you know, when I think back over kind of
my life, I think when we're born.
Can you hear me Because you'refrozen on the screen.
Oh, I can hear you, can youhear me now?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
I can't.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Sorry when I think back over the course of my life.
You know, I think as children,you know, our brains are wired
for connection.
You know we connect to ourparents and our siblings and our
families and then, as a resultof whatever type of trauma
people experience and I thinkall people experience it I think
it gets our brains get rewiredfor protection.
(07:35):
You know, and one of the thingsI learned as a very young child
was that I never wanted to havea relationship with alcohol.
You know, I can tell you therewere many markers in early
childhood where I said to myselfI never want this to be a part
of my life.
I never want to be like this.
I didn't always understand it.
I was very confused because myfather's alcoholism was such
(07:58):
that when he was drinking, youcould be around him.
When he wasn't drinking, he wasunbearable to be around
drinking you could be around himwhen he wasn't drinking.
he was unbearable to be around,wow.
And so, you know, what I knewwas that I was very
uncomfortable and I was a littlebit different from my siblings.
I was very much a mama's girlstill am, even all these years
later but I really escaped inmany different kinds of ways
(08:20):
through books, through academics.
You know, I was over.
It's not just about achievement, never was.
It was about overachievement,perfectionism, you know.
And I didn't really understandwhy I was like that until I
entered treatment in my 40s andalcoholism started really late
in life for me.
But you know, it was alwaysaround me and you know it.
(08:43):
Just, I was in a constant stateof confusion.
You know, one thing I knew forsure is that I didn't like it.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, yeah.
I want to come back to thateventually, cause I want to know
how you're drinking related tothe fact your dad's great to be
around when he's drinking, and Ican relate to that.
I get real tight and sobriety.
That's why sobriety in itselfwas never a solution for me.
I actually don't feel likemyself and I'll start thinking
(09:10):
of the times.
Oh, you know, whatever theconsequences were, I feel like
myself in this pocket of afour-hour buzz, like I'm
tolerable to be around because Iget real rigid.
So I want to come back to that.
What in your life changed andhow old were you that you were
(09:32):
curious, or that you thoughtdrinking should be an experience
, or that you began drinkingafter growing up that way?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
So I had never really experienced failure in my life
until I hit my 30s.
I had graduated from collegeand gotten a master's, had
decided to go into education.
I got married and, you know,one of the things that was
really important to us washaving children.
I wanted a big family, I wantedto be a mom and, you know, one
of the things that was reallyimportant to us was having
children.
I wanted a big family, I wantedto be a mom and, you know,
(10:08):
prior to this, really norelationship with alcohol in
life just got very challengingand as a result of some of the
challenges that we were facingas a young married couple, you
know, eventually the marriagedissolved and so I had a couple
things going on.
One infertility was a realthing and so I had a couple of
things going on.
One infertility was a realthing and there wasn't a lot of
information around that and atthat time I was didn't feel, you
(10:33):
know, safe to really talk aboutit because I was hearing, you
know people say, you know, youjust have to keep trying, it'll
happen and you know peoplegetting pregnant all around me
and you know, my husband and I,our marriage was not on solid
ground when we went into thatprocess and eventually it landed
(10:54):
in divorce.
And you know those, that doublefailure, if you will, you know,
very close together.
It was so unfamiliar to me andI didn't know how to cope with
it.
And but I, I immediately didwhat I'd always done, just
propelled myself into my workand overachievement and got
another master's and just, youknow, let me climb the ladder at
work and see how that wasgetting my needs, the isms.
(11:16):
I was getting my needs met inother ways.
And you know, then I got tothis place where I started to be
a little bit more social andstarted running with a group of,
you know, young 30 year olds.
And what do they do on theweekends?
You know, they go out and theyhave a couple of beers or have a
glass of wine.
And that's really how itstarted for me.
You know, just still, for thefirst couple of years had a very
(11:38):
limited relationship withalcohol could take it or leave
it, could be the designateddriver for my group or not.
Could drink a beer, leave ahalf sitting there.
You know, just, really, itdidn't latch on to me until, you
know, life continued to getdifficult.
I didn't deal with some of thelosses that I had had.
They went very unresolved.
(12:00):
I was really grieving.
What I learned in treatment wasan ambiguous loss, you know, the
loss of something that neverwas the the option of becoming a
mom, you know, and it caught upwith me and I entered into
another relationship withsomeone that was an alcoholic
and I didn't recognize it at allbecause it looks so different
(12:20):
from my dad's alcoholism, lookso different from my dad's
alcoholism.
And you know, when my fathergot sick with cancer actually
directly tied to his alcoholism,you know I would say I had a
lot of unresolved issues withhim and when I didn't or wasn't
able to create, you know, theopportunity to go kind of make
(12:43):
an amends to my dad before hepassed, he died suddenly, more
suddenly than we had hoped.
You know, my addiction reallypulled me under like a riptide
after that and I had no ideawhat was happening and still
believed, you know, in my mind,that I was able to control it.
I was very focused on everybodyelse's problems.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
But that's really when things changed for me.
A few things that stick out tome is the term ambiguous loss,
and this is a form of grief andsome people might not be
familiar with the term and itsounds like Brookdale covers
(13:26):
this, but I think it's apowerful term if a person is
experiencing it and addiction isin their life or becomes the
solution, because ambiguous lossleads to deep rumination you
might not effectively knowyou're consciously thinking
about daily, through a fantasynarratives, story of a life that
(13:48):
if that happened, that's whereI would have been happy and this
could go through car drives orwherever.
Wherever we are.
Um, it's serious, it's a andit's a really I like that term
and anyone who takes a grievingor loss counseling will run into
this term and how to deal withit.
But what I was curious about tokind of wrap up some of the
(14:13):
ideas that alcohol became a toolduring all these crisis, some
compounded failures andchallenges in your life that
you're describing.
What was the effect alcohol hadon you?
That was like it clicked, likeyou're like there's, this isn't
(14:34):
as bad as I thought it was,because this was in a lane, that
was just my dad and alcoholism.
Now it's doing something foryou.
What was it doing?
That validation throughachievement, was it?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Well, you know, I entered into this phase where
the things that had worked forme historically, my whole life,
weren't doing it anymore, and soit was actually at my father's
funeral that I was.
It was very clear to me that myrelationship with alcohol had
changed Because, you know, aspeople were eulogizing my father
(15:10):
, and I was, you know, just kindof wallowing in shame and grief
.
You know, I realized it at hisfuneral that I had spent my
entire life trying to be nothinglike him, and it suddenly
occurred to me that I had becomehim, because the only thing I
really cared about that day wasgetting out of that church and
(15:31):
drinking myself into an oblivion.
And so alcohol had become aboutbeing anesthetized, and it
wasn't about fun and going outand partying, it was about how
quickly can I numb this pain andjust not feel anything.
And I really everything reallytook off after that, and it
(15:51):
wasn't long after that that, youknow, I was confronted and told
you're going to treatment.
And you know, and that was areally hard time in my life
because I was very shamed atwhat I had become and who I'd
become, and I knew I was nevergoing to get that opportunity
back to go see my dad at the endof his life and have any type
(16:17):
of what I called closure.
And it wasn't until I got intotreatment later that I learned
that that was the result of myalcoholism and his.
You know that wasn't just aboutme and you know going into
treatment I don't remember thatthat time and wasn't in
(16:37):
treatment very long couple hours.
And you know the medical teamrealized that I was pretty sick
and needed to be lifelighted toa level one trauma center.
So there's a big medicalcomponent to my story.
It wasn't just about loss ofcontrol in the end.
It was about, you know,drinking copious amounts of
vodka and Chardonnay and takinghandfuls of Tylenol trying to
(17:00):
dull the pain in my head and thethrobbing.
And you know I poisoned myselfwith acetaminophen and alcohol,
wow, and was in triple organfailure.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
This is your liver.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Liver, lungs and kidneys.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
And your lungs.
How did that occur to yourlungs?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
So I was, when I was life flighted from Reading
Hospital to Temple UniversityHospital.
You know, they learned in thehell of that ride that my
kidneys were shutting down, myliver was shutting down and I
had to be intubated.
I slipped into a coma and so Iwas actually on dialysis for
quite some time, which isprobably the greatest torment
(17:43):
I've ever experienced in my truesuffering, Um, and was on the
liver transplant list, which istricky, you know.
Liver trans, uh, any type oftransplant is not an option for
people in active addiction, andthere were just a lot of
variables, variables that wentinto that.
And, um, you know, I wasfighting for my life, not just
(18:03):
addiction but all this other,you know, medical, medical stuff
, and it was really hard for me,and so I didn't have a choice.
You know, if I didn't dosomething differently, I was
undoubtedly going to die.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
It's frightening.
This moment of deep insightseems to happen while you're
drinking in the the time of thefuneral.
Was there different insights toyour body?
Were you not aware of how sickyou became until then?
Is there a disconnectionbetween, intellectually, how you
(18:39):
can understand okay, I'mbecoming my dad, but totally out
of touch with what is happeningto kidneys, or indication that
your liver is failing in yourlungs?
What do you?
Do?
You attribute that to somedisassociation.
Were you that anesthetizedCause?
That's addiction.
I find myself disconnected frommy body, but not my intellect.
(19:04):
A lot at the end of myaddiction I had no idea what was
happening to me.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I would say I was a shell of the human that I had
been and I just, you know, I washaving, you know, pretty
significant trauma responsesbecause of other things that had
happened in life.
And you know, when I was sober,for you know, I tried to stop
on my own.
You know I would try to stopfor a couple days, a couple
(19:30):
weeks.
I just couldn't stay stoppedand part of that was because I
didn't know what to do with allthe pain I was in.
What I knew is that I didn'twant to feel like that anymore
and I still didn't reallyunderstand what happened to me
until after I came out of thatcoma and started to the true
process of rehabilitation.
And it took me a month, sixweeks, coming out of the fog to
(19:55):
really understand what happened,and months and months after
that to kind of pull it apart.
You know, how did I get here?
How did this happen?
And then months of how do I getmyself out of this.
You know what do I do, coupledwith do I want to get out of
this?
Do I want to continue with life?
(20:16):
I don't know that I can.
I didn't see a lot of hope formyself, not even around the
alcoholism around, the stoppingdrinking.
But just like, how does one getoff the liver transplant list?
You know?
How does one get off ofdialysis, you know it.
Just, my circumstances werepretty dire and the one thing
(20:38):
that I landed on always is Iknow I don't want to carry on
this way.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yeah, and how old were you?
If I can ask, 40 years old 40.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Wow, and it has me leaning towards a two-part
question.
When did the internalmotivation start to grow in that
time, as you were describinglike being stuck in a hospital?
(21:11):
There's a coma.
You see all these milestonesthat look Herculean, liver
transplant oh, I have to besober too, or I'm going to get
therapy to treat.
When did the internalmotivation feel that it was
creating security and did itcoincide I guess this is the
second part when did you come toan understanding that it was
(21:34):
going to be beyond sobriety?
It wasn't going to be what thedefinition of sobriety was your
whole life, or what it wouldhave been at that time, which
would sound like suffering, Ithink, to any real alcoholic.
When did you think there was,or come to terms with that?
There's more texture to this.
Maybe I could do it.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
So it wasn't an event , it was definitely a process.
And I was in residentialtreatment for almost five months
and my guess is it wassomewhere right around month
three when I started to lookdifferent.
The fluid started to leave mybody.
I mean, I was a very unpleasantshade of yellow green.
(22:16):
You know the true liver failure.
Look, I, you know the smell oforgan failure permeated off my
body.
And it wasn't until and listen Igot outstanding care.
I was surrounded by not just ateam of treatment professionals
but my transplant team at Temple, and then the community of
patients that I was surroundedby, you know, took me months to
(22:39):
be able to have conversationsand actually connect with people
.
Have conversations and actuallyconnect with people, you know I
, I was so numb and so sick, Ididn't really know, and in so
much physical pain, emotionalpain and spiritual pain.
Having a conversation for me inthe early months of treatment
was really challenging and I,you know, was ashamed of the way
(23:01):
I looked, the way I smelled,you know.
And and it was really about thecommunity, you know the people
around me that had hope for me,not just my family, my mother
and older sister in particular,but just the other patients, you
know, encouraging me andhelping me, and that sense of
community was really fostered.
And, you know, the right peoplecame along at the right time
(23:25):
and I just drafted off theirhope for me.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, and does someone stand out at the end of
that period?
That transformed yourdefinition of what recovery
could be.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
I think, multiple people in my care team.
You know Father Bill, reverendJack, you know the clinical
folks Tootie and Sharon Matthew,who was the clinical director
of Women's Extend at that time.
You know I mean they wasn't oneto take advantage of them.
(24:01):
You know, I wanted to just belike everybody else and achieve
this thing that I was supposedto achieve, which was sobriety.
But there were just multiplepeople and I think you know my
higher power was working in mylife and if there's one thing
that people would say to meregularly, it's there's.
There's some reason why you'restill here, because at one point
(24:25):
in this journey, you know, Ihad about a 10% chance of
survival and I never questionedthat because I don't know if I
just didn't have the energy or,you know, the wherewithal, the
mental capacity to question that.
What I did was just keep puttingone foot in front of the other,
and there was one woman inparticular that was a patient in
(24:50):
treatment with me.
That's still my best friend tothis day.
Her name is Diana and what shetaught me is that we were going
to have fun doing this thing,even though it wasn't always fun
, and she kind of pulled out thepersonality that she saw in
there that I had trouble lettingout and you know she made that
(25:10):
time a lot of fun for me andessentially, when she came to
the unit which was after me, shewalked up to me and she said
listen, I don't know what you'redoing over here in the corner
by yourself, but you need tostart talking because you're
like me and all these otherpeople are crazy and we're going
to have to talk about thesepeople.
And she just her sense of humor,you know.
(25:31):
I mean she just wrapped herarms around me essentially and
said come along for the ridebecause I'm not leaving without
you.
And you know we just becamebuddies and you know the
treatment team actuallyintervened on this multiple
times around our codependencyfor one another, because you
never saw one without the otherand she made that process not
just bearable but a lot of funand I learned to laugh again and
(25:53):
smile and you know connect withpeople and you know she was
definitely a game changer for me, in addition to my mom's love
for me.
You know we're gonna do this,you're gonna do this and you
know it was just like theperfect storm wow.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
So the bonding was one of the strongest components
on the tail end of that, to toconnect with someone and feel
safe, to find, like, showsomeone who Amy is.
Wow, as, as this stabilizeditself and you kind of hit the
(26:34):
ground running, you're leaving.
What was your plan for a lifethat would be recovery in lines
with a career.
What do I do moving forward?
How do I I don't know, maybereview how ambitious you were or
(26:54):
how driven to get the?
Did that change or did it haveto change?
Was it something you had toconfront and how did it lead
producing you into the drug andalcohol field?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Well, you know, they weren't kidding with me when
they they said everything needsto change.
And you know I I talked to ourpatients about that a lot here
because I well, I don't believethat to be true for everybody Um
, I needed to take a look at allthe other things that were, you
know, a problem in my life, ifyou will.
And so, to be honest with you,like up until the end of my
(27:29):
treatment experience, I reallybelieved I was going to go back
to Atlanta and resume my life,even though there was nothing
healthy about that for me and my, my, my care team, my treatment
team, was like, yeah, that'snot the plan that we have.
Here's the plan.
And I didn't support it and Ididn't like it.
(27:49):
But my family did and you knowthey really held the line for me
and said like this is what youhave to do and we'll support you
through this process, but we donot support you going back to
this other life, because youknow you're going to die if you
do.
And so, you know, through allthe medical challenges and
everything that I had, you know,even after I left treatment, I
wasn't ready to go into theworkforce.
There came a time where, youknow, I was healthy enough where
(28:12):
I could get what's called arecovery job, and I ended up
getting a job as a dentalreceptionist, which is honestly
the worst job I ever had.
But I worked it in tandem withthe sponsor and the steps and a
therapist.
And what I learned during thatprocess is, you know, I got to
(28:33):
see my character defects andsome of my thinking that was a
problem in somebody else and itwas a hard time.
But my sponsor, you know, tookme through the steps.
My sponsor is a retired FBIagent, by the way, so like a
walking lie detector, and shewas firm with me but yet a very
(28:56):
soft place to land and she knewme really well.
So when I started working thesteps, you know there's just
there were no shortcuts thatwere taken.
And and you know what's just,there were no shortcuts that
were taken.
And you know, what I learned ismy resentments weren't going to
be the problem.
That wasn't going to.
What was going to take me out,it was my thinking and my
character defects.
And so my step six and sevenwas really like a very, a much
(29:16):
more comprehensive inventory,and I did that while working
this job and seeing myself inthis dentist.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
And I'm convinced that it's one of the reasons I'm
still sober today because Ididn't like what I saw and my
sponsor was able to point outwell, you do the same thing,
just in a different way.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Yeah.
And so I committed to that jobfor one year and the day after
that one year, marquette, Iresigned and had been very
active in the treatment centerthat I went to and involved in
alumni and very connected to thestaff.
And you know, they had anopening in the Washington DC
office and they said we'd likefor you to come apply for this
job.
Didn't really know what the jobwas, went through a series of
(30:03):
very serious interviews and gotto the end and they were like
well, we'd like for you to comeon board.
And when they told me what Iwas going to be doing, you know
still, even after all this, Iwas like you basically want me
to be somebody's secretary?
And they're like, yes.
So I called Mike Early, who wasthe chief clinical officer at
the time, and he's like justshut up and take the job and
(30:30):
just trust this process.
So that's how I started intreatment.
I started, you know, as theadministrative assistant for the
regional vice president inWashington DC and Philadelphia
and love them and love the workthat we were doing.
And about a month into that,we're like they're like you're a
little overqualified.
So they started giving meprojects.
I started working with thechief development officer for
the company and you know otherthings that you know had kind of
fallen by the wayside and theywere handing it to me and I was,
(30:51):
you know, doing a really goodjob of just making things work
and turning things around.
I'm an operational leader, andso that's how it started for me
and I just climbed the ladderand eventually became a
corporate director on the seniorleadership team there and
really had an opportunity totransfer my skills.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
It was hard yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
I see almost this organic therapeutic
transformation, because I canrelate to this being
self-employed, being the bossfor over a decade, and then I
was a behavioral tech at atreatment and I despise
treatment centers.
I just hated going to them.
I hated them when I was sober.
(31:32):
I'm like, oh my God.
And to hear you describe thatposition, I was.
You know, this is how people inrecovery talk back and forth.
I was feeling the moments whereI would be thinking I was the
one there helping people and Iknow the steps and I'll be great
up here.
And then listening to peopleand realize, wow, how sick I
(31:55):
still was at home, in mythoughts, in my stress.
Response was just not eventhere for a year, a year even
after, you know, I was doing afourth and fifth step.
So I'm picturing you in thisposition with two master's
degrees, learning how totolerate all kinds of behavior.
(32:15):
And then it's not personal,it's not about me having to
explain to them.
You can't treat me this way.
You just see it like you startseeing behavior as facts, facts
to someone else's history, and Icould tolerate it, like that's
what happened to me.
It took a year, and when you,you, you start at that level, it
it really we're telling thestory backwards, cause I know
(32:38):
where you are and what you'rerunning.
Um, that's like the perfectfootpath to lead operations,
because operations is, doesn'thave to take into account
sentiment, but it has to becompassionate or it's not.
It's not workable.
And to have to havecompassionate operations, you're
allowing for a lot of humanbehavior that you got to spend a
(33:00):
year with two masters degreeswatching some of the probably
the worst behavior and peoplejust acting up that's, that's
wild.
That transformation doesn'tstop once you really start this.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
It doesn't.
And I think, because I trustedthe organization that I was
working for, because they helpedme get my life back, you know,
I mean, the care that I receivedwas, you know, amazing and I
loved the people that I wassurrounded by and, to be honest
with you, joe, like I didn'treally think that I had anything
to offer people even at thatpoint I was kind of faking it,
(33:37):
you know, until something justchanged in me and again, you
know it's, it's, it says itright there in the big book, you
know, I mean it's, it's not,it's a process, it's, it's not
an event and that spiritualchange that happened for me.
You know, really I would saythat the light really came on
when I started sponsoring otherwomen, which I resisted, and I
(33:58):
started that process before Istarted working in treatment and
what I learned is that therewas no greater honor in life
than sitting with another womantrying to find her way and being
able to share my experience andoffer a little bit of hope,
(34:24):
spark ignited for me.
And then, when I startedworking in treatment really more
on the business side of it thanthe direct patient care side of
it for the first couple yearswhen I started getting around
the patients.
You know that's when it didn'tit really hit me in a very
different place, like theresponsibility of it.
You know, having theopportunity to be a part of
(34:48):
somebody's life changing journeyand that that was such an honor
and a responsibility that youknow I wasn't sure that I
deserved, but somehow, some way,that is where my path led me.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's clutch.
I don't find my, my recovery,whatever lasts very long or be
interesting or tolerable byanybody else If I didn't
acknowledge a debt that I can'trepay back In my 12-step
(35:27):
community.
It's the same approach andmotto take to this work or it's
impossible, or you'll do itwrong.
You'll just be doing it thewrong way.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Or for the wrong reasons.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yeah, for the wrong reasons.
And out of all the places topick for the wrong reasons, this
isn't one of the fields.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
And that shows up pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
It does, and I think there's a lot of real people and
I think it's the majority ofcredible people that last long
in this field.
It doesn't take long.
It takes about four minutes ofbeing in a room and I know who
I'm in a room and I know who I'min a room with.
I think addiction and traumagive you Hawkeyes, so you know
(36:11):
who you're sitting with.
I could tolerate a lot as longas the objective is to help
people.
And is it a good program?
Are you harming people?
That'd be the first question.
If they can't answer that, Imean you shouldn't be around
here for very long.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yeah, I can tell pretty quickly.
You know, based on the culturethat we've created here at
Brookdale and our organizationalhealth and the commitment and
the passion that go with thework that we do, you can tell
pretty quickly whether or notsomebody is going to be along
for the ride for an extendedperiod of time.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, Well, let's pivot there.
Brookdale how did you?
What preceded Brookdale and howdid you land at Brookdale?
Because it's the most credibleand beautiful provider in our
area and I haven't met oneperson since its inception, and
(37:11):
especially now, that doesn'tfeel safe with their family,
friends and even providers.
Any provider you talk to, it'salways pursued as the first
option.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Well, that is the greatest compliment that you
could give us, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
So I started getting.
When Doug Tiemann announced hisretirement at Cameron, you know
he was a big giant and I stoodon his shoulders and then the
others for a long time.
But when he announced hisretirement, the recruiters they
came out in full force, not justfor me but some of my peers too
, and you know that'sessentially how it started.
Just a phone call, hey, comefor a visit.
(37:51):
And I was resistant to itbecause Karen was my spiritual
home and I loved it there.
But I also knew that I hadgoals and ambitions that weren't
going to be met at thatorganization, at that time at
least.
And so, you know, I startedexploring and I got very curious
about what was out there.
I went to treatment one time,one place, one time, and so a
(38:14):
little bit different than theaverage American, I would say.
And from the moment I drovedown Back Mountain Road for the
first time and looked over to myright and saw this enormous
facility, I got that wow factorright away.
And when I came inside and feltthe magic that happens here and
(38:34):
met some of the people thatcreated the magic, you know, I
knew that it was something thatI was interested in being a part
of and so months and months ofnegotiations back and forth and
a lot of prayer and a lot ofreaching out asking people what
they thought.
You know it wasn't a decisionthat I took lightly and I had a
lot of help making it, buteventually I made it here about
(38:59):
three and a half years ago andit was a bumpy ride because it
wasn't what I was used to interms of what was going on
inside the house, and I've neverregretted my decision for one
moment.
There were certainly times Iwasn't sure I was going to make
it and should I cut my lossesand move on, but I was so
committed to the mission andreally the people, not just the
(39:25):
patients, but the team.
And you know, even during COVIDI mean Brookdale opened COVID
hit very challenging times butsomething kept us here and
moving forward and evolving andwe've recruited a fantastic team
of treatment professionals.
I've built a lot of teams overthe years but I have to say this
(39:46):
is by far the best team I'veever built.
And you know we've createdsomething really special based
on our own unique experiencesand, you know, with one common
goal the patient's experience.
Everything we do is about thepatient's experience.
Everything you do is about thepatient experience, and I will
never claim to be aone-size-fits-all organization.
(40:08):
We cannot help every singleperson that needs it, and I love
the fact that we are humbleenough to move on from things
when it's not a good fit andreally look at what we do well
here and stay true to that,instead of branching off in a
million different ways just totry to stay relevant in the
industry.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
It was just interesting to hear you
acknowledge you know there'stough times, especially COVID
transitions.
You know this perfect synergyof not only a sprawling,
beautiful piece of property thatlooks like you know it was
always designed for healing ortranquility, great real estate,
(40:50):
good team, and there's stillthis resilience.
You need to know should I quitor do I go on?
It's great to hear people inrecovery in the field talk about
that, because that's a strugglewhen you work in the field.
For that, because that's astruggle when you work in the
field, it could for anydimension.
Am I burning out?
Is this the wrong place?
Are these problems, unfixablereputation, all these things
(41:15):
converge and could createpressure.
You go home.
How do you deal with that whenyou to know to make the decision
, you punch through and youbrought Brookdale through your
leadership, a place you wantedto land after COVID?
How do you know?
How did you know not to quit?
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Well, the only thing I've ever quit in my life is
drinking.
So that working for me, youknow, I would say you know, I
would say instilled at a veryyoung age, was a strong work
ethic and I was determined tofigure this out.
I knew that we had, you know,all the parts.
I just needed to figure out howto pull everybody together and
(41:55):
get everybody flowing in thesame direction.
And I think my years ineducation, you know, building
teams and taking over schools,you know, and they weren't
always high performing, you know, a lot of times they were low
performing and underperforming.
And you know, I go in and I doan analysis of sorts and I
figure out, like where the weakspots are and where do we need
(42:16):
to improve.
And you know, building thisclinical program to be solid and
robust and helpful to peoplewas not an easy task.
Because and I had some thingsworking against me, you know,
and some people working againstme initially, and you know those
things have a way of workingthemselves out.
I just had to persevere andpush forward and I was
(42:38):
unapologetic about it.
I was unapologetic about what Ibelieved, I had a vision for
this place and I knew that if Icould ever get us to the other
side, that there'd be nothinglike us in this space.
And while we have not arrived weare not all the way there yet I
think we've made tremendousgains and we've created a very
(43:01):
therapeutic place for people tocome in the early stages of
their recovery, to get well andreally dialed into.
You know, thinking about everyhuman life that walks through
here as an opportunity to make adifference.
And what can we do to removethe barriers?
How can we keep this personhere longer so they get the help
(43:21):
that they need and increasetheir chances of staying sober?
So, really looking at the data,you know, looking at the
opportunity to help somebodymake a change, and you know the
recipe changed over the lastthree and a half years.
You know I came into this witha certain set of ideas and I've
had to pivot and adapt andovercome, based on resources at
(43:44):
the time.
But one thing never changed andthat was the heart of this
place, the mission, you know,stayed strong.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Yeah, that's refreshing to hear because
missions could stay the same butapproaches could change.
Good leadership, you know,always could change their plan.
Because of what you just said,usually data and I can't help
but think Iowa had something todo with this Just being around
(44:13):
the soil of Iowa influencesAmerica.
Different Americans, toughpeople yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
I mean, if there's anything I learned from my
Midwest family, it's that lifecan be beautiful and simple at
the same time.
Very different from my Southernfamily, but you're right, you
know just the simplicity of itand you know knowing when to say
okay, this is not working,let's pivot.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Making mistakes, taking risks and not and not
being afraid of that.
We've made plenty of mistakesalong the way, but we own them
and we learn from them and wepersevere.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Well, a couple compliments to that Same
Removing barriers.
I think you guys are great atit because I've experienced it
firsthand with friends, familiesand people that ask for my
guidance, that you are excellentat that.
But moving way past that, adifferent you know it's a
(45:19):
different departure fromBrookdale and it's clear, in
continual care and fromproviders, friends and knowing
this, you are really at thelevel of care, the next level of
care, when you leave Brookdale.
What do I mean by that?
Not everyone is after a 30-dayinpatient, effective at reaching
(45:46):
a broad population in the sameclinical measures, that
definitions of what thisdisorder doesn't have to be
reestablished, there's, there's,there's a foundation there.
They're at a point where now wecould add more support.
It's not starting, you know,someone's three months or spent
30 days with Brookdale.
You're not starting at day oneagain.
You're not having to redefineand that that's hard when you
(46:09):
have a real curriculum, say fora partial hospitalization
program or intensive outpatient.
It doesn't match if thesethings weren't achieved at a 30
day treatment center and I couldpoint to you know, to all stars
, you being one of them whereyou meet people and you're like,
oh, okay, finally we could havethe discussions ready to go
(46:30):
along to the next stage, cause Ithink good programming is
slowly becomes universal to thegood providers of what programs
working, why, why?
Why try to be too weird about itthis is, this is working for a
larger number of people, and Isee you guys doing that and
setting a trend with thingschanging, and I look forward to
(46:53):
the way you'll respond to morebiometrics, the incorporation
you've done over the last coupleof years with AI through voice
analysis, crisis interventionthere's nowhere we're not near
that, but to watch how that'sbeing formed the right way.
It's great to see providersthat can do it like yourself,
(47:17):
and with that you have a parentcompany, correct?
It's a Discover.
How does that work overlap?
Does that give you all thesupports to to now innovate the
way you're approaching clientswith like a, like I mentioned,
ai?
Does this help you guys reallykind of be in the lead of, of of
(47:39):
doing the most comprehensiveinnovative approaches to
clinical care?
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Well, you know we were privately.
I went from nonprofit tofor-profit private ownership to
being acquired by a bigconglomerate out on the West
Coast, so very unfamiliarterritory with me.
And you know, initially I wasnot thrilled about that
transition.
It was a surprise of sorts andwhat I've learned is how to
capitalize off the resourcesthat they have to offer me.
(48:06):
And they respect Brookdale asan industry leader and one of
the reasons they acquired us wasbecause of our reputation and
our ability to lead here and todo it differently.
And you know to your point.
You know we try to preparepeople for what comes next,
whatever that may be, with thepsychoeducation and the therapy
(48:29):
you know and the exposure to 12steps Dharma recovery, smart
recovery, multiple pathways andprogramming at Brookdale is not
optional, you know, and Ibelieve that because of the
psychoeducation that I receivedwhen I was a patient, you know
it was a game changer for me,like I under.
How do you expect somebody tostay well from a chronic,
(48:51):
progressive and often fataldisease if they don't understand
it and they don't understandwhy we do the things that we do?
So we've built thatpsychoeducation into our daily,
daily life here, not just Mondaythrough Friday, but seven days
a week, multiple times a day,and we have a very rigorous
schedule here.
And once the acquisition hit,we learned that they had
(49:13):
resources available to us thatit would have taken us years to
acquire as an independentoperating facility.
And one of the things that youknow we have the pleasure of
participating in is what we callDiscovery 365.
And what I think it does is itreally challenges the industry.
You hear people say, well,relapse is part of recovery, and
(49:35):
that has never landed well withme.
Relapse is part of addictionand for some people it is part
of their journey and for somepeople it is part of their
(50:07):
journey and there are manyvariables that go into that.
But what D365 does is itcaptures analytics to scale the
provider patient interaction andit has like 16 separate data
collection points, which isabout four times the number
usually associated with anypost-discharge patient data
gathering opportunity.
So you know most places theycall, you know their alumni.
How are you doing?
Or you know do various differenttypes of check-ins this system
is it sends automated promptsthrough text or email and it's a
check-in and then the patienthas a digital response.
(50:28):
So they use their phone ortheir laptop and they answer a
series of questions and throughthe technology they analyze the
person's response, verbal andnonverbal.
So sometimes it's keywords youknow, and it can be anything.
You know.
The word relapse obviously is abuzzword, but it can be other
(50:49):
things you know, like having ahard time not doing well, the
inflections of their voice, therate of speech.
You know their body language,their facial movements and then
it captures that in a video andthat gets sent to us.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Oh, it's video capture Okay.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Yes, and you know, we're able to detect emotional
distress or high risk behavior.
You know if somebody is underthe influence and they're on
video, this technology is goingto capture us and it's going to
alert us and that way we canreach out.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
So this alert goes to you on your end prior to
viewing like.
Okay, this is flagged.
There's distress here, eitherthrough a voice analysis,
visuals, speech pattern,keywords, 16 points, 16 points
being a self-report from a videoaudio.
Are they typing answers attimes?
(51:41):
Is it an app or is it like alink?
Speaker 2 (51:47):
So we have an app where alumni can stay connected
to one another and they cancheck.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Oh, it's social.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
But this is different .
This is a technology platformwhere they do the video checkins
and it gets sent to usautomatically and if there is a
sign of any type of struggle,relapse, slurring of words,
emotional distress, any type ofhigh-risk behavior, we get an
alert and then we go watch thevideo and then we immediately
(52:18):
reach out to them.
And so we have a team of peoplethat have access to that.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
How long have you been using this?
That have a team of people thathave access to that.
How long have you been usingthis?
That is some of the data andengagement coming in that you're
like okay, we're in the rightdirection.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
We started this probably around a year ago, and
one of the things I'm most proudof is that Brookdale had the
highest level of engagement forD365.
Out of all of wow yes out of theentire division and that is
about the team.
That is about you know againthat education piece making sure
(52:52):
that people stay connected, getconnected.
You know they get a link that'ssent to them as soon as they
discharge and we want to getthem hooked in right away.
So we do a lot of educationwhile they're here and we do
alumni groups where the alumniteam and others really educate
the patient.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
On the use of it.
Speaker 2 (53:10):
Right.
Yeah, and you know, one of thethings I was taught in treatment
is the more closely connectedyou stay to your treatment
center post-treatment, thebetter your chances are of
staying sober, and I'm evidencethat that works, and a lot of
other people so.
This just takes it a stepfurther and makes that
connection easier for the personon the other end to stay
connected.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
What a great tool and it's the first in play in our
area, for sure because of theresources you have and it sounds
like engagement.
I was always.
I followed tech and AI withdeep curiosity and I was just
curious of how it's going to fitthis field.
That doesn't have to createincentives to compromise maybe a
clinical self-report, like yousaid with this video, and this
(53:58):
video can analyze that.
That answers my question.
So, are there incentives to beengaged or like socially with
365?
Are they?
Are they going to merge intoone lane?
That would be interesting tounderstand how someone's going
to come back.
Do you expect them to report upto a year for alumni follow up?
(54:20):
Is that what the goal is?
Speaker 2 (54:22):
It is.
It's to start connecting rightaway and to keep that connection
going until there's a break andthey need help or they need to
come back.
But for the person on the otherend, what they tell me is you
know, I love doing thesecheck-ins, even when I'm not
doing well, because undoubtedlysomebody's going to reach out to
(54:44):
me either way and we're a veryhigh touch organization, not
just while the patient's here,but post-treatment.
You know, we're reaching out tothem one week, 30 days, 60 days
, 90 days, and we have manyplatforms for them to stay
connected.
We have online alumni groups,we have in-person meetings on
campus, you know, and thatconnection, which is the
(55:06):
opposite of active addiction, ispart of what makes us special
and that, you know, for anorganization that's so young, I
was wildly impressed by howconnected people were to
Brookdale post-treatment andwe've taken it to the next level
in the last year, year and ahalf no, I, I see that same.
Speaker 1 (55:25):
um, I don't want to call it status, but you know the
status of being a karen alumniand the connections and bonds
that makes, even to strangers.
If you meet them in the futureand you're both karen alumni
there, there is something realincredible there and Brookdale
being the new kid on the block,you know if we want to, it's
(55:48):
there, it's there in the alumniI experience in my area and
people.
You guys are doing a great job.
Last nerd question isbiometrics.
You have a beautiful gym thatdoes biometrics record kind of
diagnostics of what's going on.
Is there any plans in thefuture for a data collection of
(56:09):
biometrics of alumni orcontinual care that would be in
the regard of you know yourbasic vitals coming in or
collected if someone wanted topursue that, to see if they're
reaching a place thathistorically you could say, oh,
this is dangerous, given historyof the biometrics.
(56:30):
Or could record sleep, remsleep being disturbed or any of
this?
Are you guys that far ahead?
It seems like.
Well, this is what's comingright as a relapse alert.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
It's definitely coming and I would love to start
that process the minute theystep foot here.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (56:50):
And you know, not just for.
You know, safety is always ournumber one priority at Brookdale
, not just for measuring whilethey're here and but beyond, and
I think there's so manyvariables that go into relapse.
Let's just take the sleep.
You know sleep hygiene is veryimportant.
The sleep center in our braingets destroyed when we abuse
drugs and alcohol or use themaddictively and it takes time
(57:13):
and that's a big trigger forpeople and a and a catalyst for
relapse for a lot of people,that insomniac state, you know,
the only thing that's going tohelp me sleep I'm going crazy is
alcohol or drugs and havingthat, you know, biometric if you
will, to measure that not justwhile they're here, but beyond.
I think we're definitely headedin that direction and I'm down
(57:38):
to pilot any program.
You know that that could makeus more effective and to
increase the patient'sopportunity to get healthy and
stay healthy.
Speaker 1 (57:50):
Yeah, I think that is the future.
It's going to take a lot ofolder models or people even in
recovery that have greatclinical approaches.
It's almost this admission.
How much of us is automatedhave great clinical approaches?
It's almost this admission.
How much of us is automated?
(58:10):
And I think it freaks people outthat especially have strong
relationships to a concept offree will, volition, or that
their recovery is this puredestiny, fantasy of will, and I
think they don't even know whythey're resisting some of this
stuff.
But I mean, we're not incontrol of our hair growing or
how often our heart beats.
This goes down to the momentswe dream, what we're even
(58:31):
ruminating about.
I think this window of AI isgoing to tell us a lot about
ourselves, especially inaddiction.
I really am hopeful to that.
But it's also going to have toredefine how people digest the
word spirituality.
I would think I'm not saying itdiminishes it, but you're going
(58:52):
to have to see.
You're going to have achallenge of the context of what
that could mean to some peoplethat haven't considered it again
.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
Right, yeah, I mean I think you know there are some
people that will neverparticipate in D365 for whatever
reason, and the same for whatyou're, you know, kind of
talking about, but for me, youknow, any information that we
can provide to help treat thisinsidious disease.
(59:19):
You know I'm down you knowthere's just so many variables
that go into this and you know,I think information is power and
you know any type of data pointthat we can pull to say, hey,
this is how we can do thisbetter, or we need to be looking
at this, you know, I think isthe way to go.
You know, I mean, we've evolvedin this industry, you know, and
(59:44):
I think we had a responsibilityto evolve and we also are
losing more people than ever,and you know we need to be
forward thinking and looking atthese things as opportunities
for progress.
Speaker 1 (59:55):
Yeah, I think I agree .
I think a lot of people agree,and I think drug culture and the
longevity of an addiction haschanged from the way you and I
started.
You started in your 30s but Ihad an adolescence that had far
more wiggle room of not severeconsequence, to say, with
alcohol, marijuana, lsd.
(01:00:16):
Your first night starting anaddiction can kill you now
because you, just because it's adifferent drug distribution.
It's synthetic drugs.
They're all can you know,consolidated into a gas station
and they're legal.
Like a gas station for me iswhere you stole a pack of camels
.
Now there's a casino in theredrinks I've never heard of fake
(01:00:41):
opiates, fake marijuana, thcblends and and you don't even
have to socialize your addictioncould start right there at a
gas station.
It's crazy.
So I think what you're sayingis definitely going to have to
accelerate with that if you'regoing to reach and save lives.
Amy, we're kind of winding down.
(01:01:02):
Is there anything we did notcover that maybe you would want
to talk about, or a question Ididn't ask?
Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
No, I thank you for the opportunity to talk with you
.
You know I always love you know, hearing about other people's
stories, and you know I lovehaving you as an aftercare
provider.
I think it's really challengingto find like-minded facilities
and we've been blessed to find ahandful, including yours, where
(01:01:31):
we seem to have the same goalin mind and the same heart for
helping people.
And, you know, if we do nothingelse for the rest of our lives,
I'd say job well done.
Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
Yeah, this is it for us, and we're flattered and it
feels really good to berecognized that we're doing it
right.
Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
Yes indeed.
Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Well, hey, I hope to talk to you soon and thanks for
popping on.
Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Yes, thank you, joe.
Have a good day.
Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
You too.
Bye, bye.
I'd like to thank you forlistening to another episode of
All Better.
You can find us on allbetterfmor listen to us on Apple
Podcasts, spotify, googlePodcasts, stitcher, iheartradio
and Alexa.
(01:02:17):
Special thanks to our producer,john Edwards, and engineering
company 570 Drone.
Please like or subscribe to uson YouTube, facebook, instagram
or Twitter and, if you're not,on social media, you're awesome.
Looking forward to seeing youagain.
(01:02:38):
And remember, just becauseyou're sober doesn't mean you're
right.
Hello and thanks again for listening to another
episode of All Better.
I'm your host, joe VanWee.
Today's guest is Amy Durham.
Amy is the CEO of BrookdalePremier Addiction Recovery.
As the Chief Executive Officer,amy brings a renewed vision to
Brookdale, embodying the corevalues that set Brookdale apart
(00:24):
compassion, empathy anddedication.
Amy has over 15 years of seniormanagement experience in
educational leadership, inaddition to six years as a
corporate director of care andtreatment centers.
Beyond her extensive backgroundin operational oversight,
strategic planning andorganizational development, she
(00:55):
holds a master's degree from theUniversity of Mississippi and
is a woman in active long-termrecovery.
Amy is passionate about reducingstigma associated with
substance use disorder and hopesto strengthen Brookdale's
relationships with othertreatment providers and increase
their national presence.
Driven by the belief thateveryone deserves the
opportunity to receivecomprehensive, quality treatment
, amy continuously aims toelevate Brookdale's standard of
(01:17):
care through effectiveleadership in utilizing the most
innovative and evidence-basedpractices.
Alongside her innate ability toinspire and empower those she
leads, amy's personal journeyhas resulted in an extraordinary
capacity to connect andempathize with those struggling
with addiction.
I was taught early on that Ican't keep it if I don't give it
(01:40):
away.
In her own words, hercommitment has become the
leading example for theBrookdale team has been
exemplified through theenvironment of healing she has
created for their patients.
Outside of work, amy enjoysreading, exercising and going to
the beach and spending timewith her family and friends.
We get to discuss many topicswith Amy today.
(02:01):
One, her personal story and thestruggles she had medically
with liver disease and failure.
How long that road to healingwas, her entry into the field of
substance use disordertreatment and her current
position in the future ofBrookdale Leads us down a path
(02:22):
to start discussing the spaceand role of AI in drug and
alcohol treatment.
I'm excited for you to meet AmyDurham.
Amy, thanks for being availableand coming on All better.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Thanks for having me.
I wanted to talk about ahandful of things, but sometimes
I like to start with who areyou and your personal story,
which I've only heard throughother people, and it's quite
moving and compelling.
(03:05):
So, amy, maybe you cansummarize where you grew up, a
little bit about your childhood.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
So I actually my dad was a resort developer, so I
moved 13 times when I was a kidand our roots were always in the
South.
My dad was from Mississippi, mymom was from Iowa and we went
wherever my father's job wouldtake us, so all up and down the
eastern seaboard and out west aswell.
(03:33):
Some but we most people when Italk about it say were you
military and we were definitelynot military, but we moved
around as such.
We were definitely not military, but we moved around as such.
So growing up, you know, had tobe really well adjusted, always
, you know, in new and differentenvironments from a young age.
But my grandparents inMississippi, that was home base
(03:56):
for me, so I lived with themevery summer, just because I
like to pretend like I was anonly child and you know I'm a
Southern girl at heart, so thatwas, that was kind of where my
heart was and you?
Speaker 1 (04:08):
you were not an only child no, I'm.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I am number three out of four and so this time alone
would it?
Speaker 1 (04:16):
would it be a sense of peace and ease to not be
around such noise and activityall the time?
Speaker 2 (04:24):
when you say something like that, yes, I mean
from my earliest memories myfather's alcoholism was very
present in our lives and so kindof going to either
grandparents' house actually,you know, was a place for me to
kind of escape from some of that.
And you know, my father was awonderful provider and my mom
(04:46):
was a wonderful mother, but wedefinitely had a lot of chaos
growing up.
You know what addiction does tohouseholds and families, and so
that was a way for me to try toget away from it all.
And you know, be a kid again.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, yeah, that seems like a special retreat.
It's amazing what I feel wasnormalized not only living in
Scranton, in your Irish or yourCatholic, whatever culture you
emerge from and what you feel isnormal just because of your
proximity and what you want toremember from childhood.
(05:20):
In my family we turned traumaor just the strangeness of my
dad's addiction into humor andyou get so used to delivering
that story especially in yourown cohort or people that are
familiar with this as just okay,that's just comical.
(05:41):
But in my twenties I saw itchanged.
In my thirties and now that I'man adult with children, I look
back with an entirely differentlens.
It's not like bitter or likeaha, I figured it all out.
Now I know what my childhoodmeant.
But I look at it through thislens and tell me if you relate,
their brains are just so.
(06:02):
I don't know.
They have their ownintelligence, without volition,
that they're constantly seeking,without your permission, a
balance, an environment and whenit's interrupted, say traveling
a lot, be it a military family.
But you know you were travelingfor resorts.
Someone has an active addiction.
(06:23):
Know you were traveling forresorts.
Someone has an active addictionnot having the homeostasis or a
balanced environment you and Iseem to share this view that
that's what you could point toas trauma Not having that
stability.
Would that be something youlook back and think, okay, this
(06:44):
might be the seeds, in the earlyearmark, this environment of
something that addiction wouldsoothe.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So for me, you know, when I think back over kind of
my life, I think when we're born.
Can you hear me Because you'refrozen on the screen.
Oh, I can hear you, can youhear me now?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
I can't.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Sorry when I think back over the course of my life.
You know, I think as children,you know, our brains are wired
for connection.
You know we connect to ourparents and our siblings and our
families and then, as a resultof whatever type of trauma
people experience and I thinkall people experience it I think
it gets our brains get rewiredfor protection.
(07:35):
You know, and one of the thingsI learned as a very young child
was that I never wanted to havea relationship with alcohol.
You know, I can tell you therewere many markers in early
childhood where I said to myselfI never want this to be a part
of my life.
I never want to be like this.
I didn't always understand it.
I was very confused because myfather's alcoholism was such
(07:58):
that when he was drinking, youcould be around him.
When he wasn't drinking, he wasunbearable to be around
drinking you could be around himwhen he wasn't drinking.
he was unbearable to be around,wow.
And so, you know, what I knewwas that I was very
uncomfortable and I was a littlebit different from my siblings.
I was very much a mama's girlstill am, even all these years
later but I really escaped inmany different kinds of ways
(08:20):
through books, through academics.
You know, I was over.
It's not just about achievement, never was.
It was about overachievement,perfectionism, you know.
And I didn't really understandwhy I was like that until I
entered treatment in my 40s andalcoholism started really late
in life for me.
But you know, it was alwaysaround me and you know it.
(08:43):
Just, I was in a constant stateof confusion.
You know, one thing I knew forsure is that I didn't like it.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, yeah.
I want to come back to thateventually, cause I want to know
how you're drinking related tothe fact your dad's great to be
around when he's drinking, and Ican relate to that.
I get real tight and sobriety.
That's why sobriety in itselfwas never a solution for me.
I actually don't feel likemyself and I'll start thinking
(09:10):
of the times.
Oh, you know, whatever theconsequences were, I feel like
myself in this pocket of afour-hour buzz, like I'm
tolerable to be around because Iget real rigid.
So I want to come back to that.
What in your life changed andhow old were you that you were
(09:32):
curious, or that you thoughtdrinking should be an experience
, or that you began drinkingafter growing up that way?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
So I had never really experienced failure in my life
until I hit my 30s.
I had graduated from collegeand gotten a master's, had
decided to go into education.
I got married and, you know,one of the things that was
really important to us washaving children.
I wanted a big family, I wantedto be a mom and, you know, one
of the things that was reallyimportant to us was having
children.
I wanted a big family, I wantedto be a mom and, you know,
(10:08):
prior to this, really norelationship with alcohol in
life just got very challengingand as a result of some of the
challenges that we were facingas a young married couple, you
know, eventually the marriagedissolved and so I had a couple
things going on.
One infertility was a realthing and so I had a couple of
things going on.
One infertility was a realthing and there wasn't a lot of
information around that and atthat time I was didn't feel, you
(10:33):
know, safe to really talk aboutit because I was hearing, you
know people say, you know, youjust have to keep trying, it'll
happen and you know peoplegetting pregnant all around me
and you know, my husband and I,our marriage was not on solid
ground when we went into thatprocess and eventually it landed
(10:54):
in divorce.
And you know those, that doublefailure, if you will, you know,
very close together.
It was so unfamiliar to me andI didn't know how to cope with
it.
And but I, I immediately didwhat I'd always done, just
propelled myself into my workand overachievement and got
another master's and just, youknow, let me climb the ladder at
work and see how that wasgetting my needs, the isms.
(11:16):
I was getting my needs met inother ways.
And you know, then I got tothis place where I started to be
a little bit more social andstarted running with a group of,
you know, young 30 year olds.
And what do they do on theweekends?
You know, they go out and theyhave a couple of beers or have a
glass of wine.
And that's really how itstarted for me.
You know, just still, for thefirst couple of years had a very
(11:38):
limited relationship withalcohol could take it or leave
it, could be the designateddriver for my group or not.
Could drink a beer, leave ahalf sitting there.
You know, just, really, itdidn't latch on to me until, you
know, life continued to getdifficult.
I didn't deal with some of thelosses that I had had.
They went very unresolved.
(12:00):
I was really grieving.
What I learned in treatment wasan ambiguous loss, you know, the
loss of something that neverwas the the option of becoming a
mom, you know, and it caught upwith me and I entered into
another relationship withsomeone that was an alcoholic
and I didn't recognize it at allbecause it looks so different
(12:20):
from my dad's alcoholism, lookso different from my dad's
alcoholism.
And you know, when my fathergot sick with cancer actually
directly tied to his alcoholism,you know I would say I had a
lot of unresolved issues withhim and when I didn't or wasn't
able to create, you know, theopportunity to go kind of make
(12:43):
an amends to my dad before hepassed, he died suddenly, more
suddenly than we had hoped.
You know, my addiction reallypulled me under like a riptide
after that and I had no ideawhat was happening and still
believed, you know, in my mind,that I was able to control it.
I was very focused on everybodyelse's problems.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
But that's really when things changed for me.
A few things that stick out tome is the term ambiguous loss,
and this is a form of grief andsome people might not be
familiar with the term and itsounds like Brookdale covers
(13:26):
this, but I think it's apowerful term if a person is
experiencing it and addiction isin their life or becomes the
solution, because ambiguous lossleads to deep rumination you
might not effectively knowyou're consciously thinking
about daily, through a fantasynarratives, story of a life that
(13:48):
if that happened, that's whereI would have been happy and this
could go through car drives orwherever.
Wherever we are.
Um, it's serious, it's a andit's a really I like that term
and anyone who takes a grievingor loss counseling will run into
this term and how to deal withit.
But what I was curious about tokind of wrap up some of the
(14:13):
ideas that alcohol became a toolduring all these crisis, some
compounded failures andchallenges in your life that
you're describing.
What was the effect alcohol hadon you?
That was like it clicked, likeyou're like there's, this isn't
(14:34):
as bad as I thought it was,because this was in a lane, that
was just my dad and alcoholism.
Now it's doing something foryou.
What was it doing?
That validation throughachievement, was it?
Speaker 2 (14:49):
Well, you know, I entered into this phase where
the things that had worked forme historically, my whole life,
weren't doing it anymore, and soit was actually at my father's
funeral that I was.
It was very clear to me that myrelationship with alcohol had
changed Because, you know, aspeople were eulogizing my father
(15:10):
, and I was, you know, just kindof wallowing in shame and grief
.
You know, I realized it at hisfuneral that I had spent my
entire life trying to be nothinglike him, and it suddenly
occurred to me that I had becomehim, because the only thing I
really cared about that day wasgetting out of that church and
(15:31):
drinking myself into an oblivion.
And so alcohol had become aboutbeing anesthetized, and it
wasn't about fun and going outand partying, it was about how
quickly can I numb this pain andjust not feel anything.
And I really everything reallytook off after that, and it
(15:51):
wasn't long after that that, youknow, I was confronted and told
you're going to treatment.
And you know, and that was areally hard time in my life
because I was very shamed atwhat I had become and who I'd
become, and I knew I was nevergoing to get that opportunity
back to go see my dad at the endof his life and have any type
(16:17):
of what I called closure.
And it wasn't until I got intotreatment later that I learned
that that was the result of myalcoholism and his.
You know that wasn't just aboutme and you know going into
treatment I don't remember thatthat time and wasn't in
(16:37):
treatment very long couple hours.
And you know the medical teamrealized that I was pretty sick
and needed to be lifelighted toa level one trauma center.
So there's a big medicalcomponent to my story.
It wasn't just about loss ofcontrol in the end.
It was about, you know,drinking copious amounts of
vodka and Chardonnay and takinghandfuls of Tylenol trying to
(17:00):
dull the pain in my head and thethrobbing.
And you know I poisoned myselfwith acetaminophen and alcohol,
wow, and was in triple organfailure.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
This is your liver.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Liver, lungs and kidneys.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
And your lungs.
How did that occur to yourlungs?
Speaker 2 (17:19):
So I was, when I was life flighted from Reading
Hospital to Temple UniversityHospital.
You know, they learned in thehell of that ride that my
kidneys were shutting down, myliver was shutting down and I
had to be intubated.
I slipped into a coma and so Iwas actually on dialysis for
quite some time, which isprobably the greatest torment
(17:43):
I've ever experienced in my truesuffering, Um, and was on the
liver transplant list, which istricky, you know.
Liver trans, uh, any type oftransplant is not an option for
people in active addiction, andthere were just a lot of
variables, variables that wentinto that.
And, um, you know, I wasfighting for my life, not just
(18:03):
addiction but all this other,you know, medical, medical stuff
, and it was really hard for me,and so I didn't have a choice.
You know, if I didn't dosomething differently, I was
undoubtedly going to die.
Speaker 1 (18:16):
It's frightening.
This moment of deep insightseems to happen while you're
drinking in the the time of thefuneral.
Was there different insights toyour body?
Were you not aware of how sickyou became until then?
Is there a disconnectionbetween, intellectually, how you
(18:39):
can understand okay, I'mbecoming my dad, but totally out
of touch with what is happeningto kidneys, or indication that
your liver is failing in yourlungs?
What do you?
Do?
You attribute that to somedisassociation.
Were you that anesthetizedCause?
That's addiction.
I find myself disconnected frommy body, but not my intellect.
(19:04):
A lot at the end of myaddiction I had no idea what was
happening to me.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I would say I was a shell of the human that I had
been and I just, you know, I washaving, you know, pretty
significant trauma responsesbecause of other things that had
happened in life.
And you know, when I was sober,for you know, I tried to stop
on my own.
You know I would try to stopfor a couple days, a couple
(19:30):
weeks.
I just couldn't stay stoppedand part of that was because I
didn't know what to do with allthe pain I was in.
What I knew is that I didn'twant to feel like that anymore
and I still didn't reallyunderstand what happened to me
until after I came out of thatcoma and started to the true
process of rehabilitation.
And it took me a month, sixweeks, coming out of the fog to
(19:55):
really understand what happened,and months and months after
that to kind of pull it apart.
You know, how did I get here?
How did this happen?
And then months of how do I getmyself out of this.
You know what do I do, coupledwith do I want to get out of
this?
Do I want to continue with life?
(20:16):
I don't know that I can.
I didn't see a lot of hope formyself, not even around the
alcoholism around, the stoppingdrinking.
But just like, how does one getoff the liver transplant list?
You know?
How does one get off ofdialysis, you know it.
Just, my circumstances werepretty dire and the one thing
(20:38):
that I landed on always is Iknow I don't want to carry on
this way.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
Yeah, and how old were you?
If I can ask, 40 years old 40.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Wow, and it has me leaning towards a two-part
question.
When did the internalmotivation start to grow in that
time, as you were describinglike being stuck in a hospital?
(21:11):
There's a coma.
You see all these milestonesthat look Herculean, liver
transplant oh, I have to besober too, or I'm going to get
therapy to treat.
When did the internalmotivation feel that it was
creating security and did itcoincide I guess this is the
second part when did you come toan understanding that it was
(21:34):
going to be beyond sobriety?
It wasn't going to be what thedefinition of sobriety was your
whole life, or what it wouldhave been at that time, which
would sound like suffering, Ithink, to any real alcoholic.
When did you think there was,or come to terms with that?
There's more texture to this.
Maybe I could do it.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
So it wasn't an event , it was definitely a process.
And I was in residentialtreatment for almost five months
and my guess is it wassomewhere right around month
three when I started to lookdifferent.
The fluid started to leave mybody.
I mean, I was a very unpleasantshade of yellow green.
(22:16):
You know the true liver failure.
Look, I, you know the smell oforgan failure permeated off my
body.
And it wasn't until and listen Igot outstanding care.
I was surrounded by not just ateam of treatment professionals
but my transplant team at Temple, and then the community of
patients that I was surroundedby, you know, took me months to
(22:39):
be able to have conversationsand actually connect with people
.
Have conversations and actuallyconnect with people, you know I
, I was so numb and so sick, Ididn't really know, and in so
much physical pain, emotionalpain and spiritual pain.
Having a conversation for me inthe early months of treatment
was really challenging and I,you know, was ashamed of the way
(23:01):
I looked, the way I smelled,you know.
And and it was really about thecommunity, you know the people
around me that had hope for me,not just my family, my mother
and older sister in particular,but just the other patients, you
know, encouraging me andhelping me, and that sense of
community was really fostered.
And, you know, the right peoplecame along at the right time
(23:25):
and I just drafted off theirhope for me.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, and does someone stand out at the end of
that period?
That transformed yourdefinition of what recovery
could be.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
I think, multiple people in my care team.
You know Father Bill, reverendJack, you know the clinical
folks Tootie and Sharon Matthew,who was the clinical director
of Women's Extend at that time.
You know I mean they wasn't oneto take advantage of them.
(24:01):
You know, I wanted to just belike everybody else and achieve
this thing that I was supposedto achieve, which was sobriety.
But there were just multiplepeople and I think you know my
higher power was working in mylife and if there's one thing
that people would say to meregularly, it's there's.
There's some reason why you'restill here, because at one point
(24:25):
in this journey, you know, Ihad about a 10% chance of
survival and I never questionedthat because I don't know if I
just didn't have the energy or,you know, the wherewithal, the
mental capacity to question that.
What I did was just keep puttingone foot in front of the other,
and there was one woman inparticular that was a patient in
(24:50):
treatment with me.
That's still my best friend tothis day.
Her name is Diana and what shetaught me is that we were going
to have fun doing this thing,even though it wasn't always fun
, and she kind of pulled out thepersonality that she saw in
there that I had trouble lettingout and you know she made that
(25:10):
time a lot of fun for me andessentially, when she came to
the unit which was after me, shewalked up to me and she said
listen, I don't know what you'redoing over here in the corner
by yourself, but you need tostart talking because you're
like me and all these otherpeople are crazy and we're going
to have to talk about thesepeople.
And she just her sense of humor,you know.
(25:31):
I mean she just wrapped herarms around me essentially and
said come along for the ridebecause I'm not leaving without
you.
And you know we just becamebuddies and you know the
treatment team actuallyintervened on this multiple
times around our codependencyfor one another, because you
never saw one without the otherand she made that process not
just bearable but a lot of funand I learned to laugh again and
(25:53):
smile and you know connect withpeople and you know she was
definitely a game changer for me, in addition to my mom's love
for me.
You know we're gonna do this,you're gonna do this and you
know it was just like theperfect storm wow.
Speaker 1 (26:09):
So the bonding was one of the strongest components
on the tail end of that, to toconnect with someone and feel
safe, to find, like, showsomeone who Amy is.
Wow, as, as this stabilizeditself and you kind of hit the
(26:34):
ground running, you're leaving.
What was your plan for a lifethat would be recovery in lines
with a career.
What do I do moving forward?
How do I I don't know, maybereview how ambitious you were or
(26:54):
how driven to get the?
Did that change or did it haveto change?
Was it something you had toconfront and how did it lead
producing you into the drug andalcohol field?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Well, you know, they weren't kidding with me when
they they said everything needsto change.
And you know I I talked to ourpatients about that a lot here
because I well, I don't believethat to be true for everybody Um
, I needed to take a look at allthe other things that were, you
know, a problem in my life, ifyou will.
And so, to be honest with you,like up until the end of my
(27:29):
treatment experience, I reallybelieved I was going to go back
to Atlanta and resume my life,even though there was nothing
healthy about that for me and my, my, my care team, my treatment
team, was like, yeah, that'snot the plan that we have.
Here's the plan.
And I didn't support it and Ididn't like it.
(27:49):
But my family did and you knowthey really held the line for me
and said like this is what youhave to do and we'll support you
through this process, but we donot support you going back to
this other life, because youknow you're going to die if you
do.
And so, you know, through allthe medical challenges and
everything that I had, you know,even after I left treatment, I
wasn't ready to go into theworkforce.
There came a time where, youknow, I was healthy enough where
(28:12):
I could get what's called arecovery job, and I ended up
getting a job as a dentalreceptionist, which is honestly
the worst job I ever had.
But I worked it in tandem withthe sponsor and the steps and a
therapist.
And what I learned during thatprocess is, you know, I got to
(28:33):
see my character defects andsome of my thinking that was a
problem in somebody else and itwas a hard time.
But my sponsor, you know, tookme through the steps.
My sponsor is a retired FBIagent, by the way, so like a
walking lie detector, and shewas firm with me but yet a very
(28:56):
soft place to land and she knewme really well.
So when I started working thesteps, you know there's just
there were no shortcuts thatwere taken.
And and you know what's just,there were no shortcuts that
were taken.
And you know, what I learned ismy resentments weren't going to
be the problem.
That wasn't going to.
What was going to take me out,it was my thinking and my
character defects.
And so my step six and sevenwas really like a very, a much
(29:16):
more comprehensive inventory,and I did that while working
this job and seeing myself inthis dentist.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
And I'm convinced that it's one of the reasons I'm
still sober today because Ididn't like what I saw and my
sponsor was able to point outwell, you do the same thing,
just in a different way.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Yeah.
And so I committed to that jobfor one year and the day after
that one year, marquette, Iresigned and had been very
active in the treatment centerthat I went to and involved in
alumni and very connected to thestaff.
And you know, they had anopening in the Washington DC
office and they said we'd likefor you to come apply for this
job.
Didn't really know what the jobwas, went through a series of
(30:03):
very serious interviews and gotto the end and they were like
well, we'd like for you to comeon board.
And when they told me what Iwas going to be doing, you know
still, even after all this, Iwas like you basically want me
to be somebody's secretary?
And they're like, yes.
So I called Mike Early, who wasthe chief clinical officer at
the time, and he's like justshut up and take the job and
(30:30):
just trust this process.
So that's how I started intreatment.
I started, you know, as theadministrative assistant for the
regional vice president inWashington DC and Philadelphia
and love them and love the workthat we were doing.
And about a month into that,we're like they're like you're a
little overqualified.
So they started giving meprojects.
I started working with thechief development officer for
the company and you know otherthings that you know had kind of
fallen by the wayside and theywere handing it to me and I was,
(30:51):
you know, doing a really goodjob of just making things work
and turning things around.
I'm an operational leader, andso that's how it started for me
and I just climbed the ladderand eventually became a
corporate director on the seniorleadership team there and
really had an opportunity totransfer my skills.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
It was hard yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
I see almost this organic therapeutic
transformation, because I canrelate to this being
self-employed, being the bossfor over a decade, and then I
was a behavioral tech at atreatment and I despise
treatment centers.
I just hated going to them.
I hated them when I was sober.
(31:32):
I'm like, oh my God.
And to hear you describe thatposition, I was.
You know, this is how people inrecovery talk back and forth.
I was feeling the moments whereI would be thinking I was the
one there helping people and Iknow the steps and I'll be great
up here.
And then listening to peopleand realize, wow, how sick I
(31:55):
still was at home, in mythoughts, in my stress.
Response was just not eventhere for a year, a year even
after, you know, I was doing afourth and fifth step.
So I'm picturing you in thisposition with two master's
degrees, learning how totolerate all kinds of behavior.
(32:15):
And then it's not personal,it's not about me having to
explain to them.
You can't treat me this way.
You just see it like you startseeing behavior as facts, facts
to someone else's history, and Icould tolerate it, like that's
what happened to me.
It took a year, and when you,you, you start at that level, it
it really we're telling thestory backwards, cause I know
(32:38):
where you are and what you'rerunning.
Um, that's like the perfectfootpath to lead operations,
because operations is, doesn'thave to take into account
sentiment, but it has to becompassionate or it's not.
It's not workable.
And to have to havecompassionate operations, you're
allowing for a lot of humanbehavior that you got to spend a
(33:00):
year with two masters degreeswatching some of the probably
the worst behavior and peoplejust acting up that's, that's
wild.
That transformation doesn'tstop once you really start this.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
It doesn't.
And I think, because I trustedthe organization that I was
working for, because they helpedme get my life back, you know,
I mean, the care that I receivedwas, you know, amazing and I
loved the people that I wassurrounded by and, to be honest
with you, joe, like I didn'treally think that I had anything
to offer people even at thatpoint I was kind of faking it,
(33:37):
you know, until something justchanged in me and again, you
know it's, it's, it says itright there in the big book, you
know, I mean it's, it's not,it's a process, it's, it's not
an event and that spiritualchange that happened for me.
You know, really I would saythat the light really came on
when I started sponsoring otherwomen, which I resisted, and I
(33:58):
started that process before Istarted working in treatment and
what I learned is that therewas no greater honor in life
than sitting with another womantrying to find her way and being
able to share my experience andoffer a little bit of hope,
(34:24):
spark ignited for me.
And then, when I startedworking in treatment really more
on the business side of it thanthe direct patient care side of
it for the first couple yearswhen I started getting around
the patients.
You know that's when it didn'tit really hit me in a very
different place, like theresponsibility of it.
You know, having theopportunity to be a part of
(34:48):
somebody's life changing journeyand that that was such an honor
and a responsibility that youknow I wasn't sure that I
deserved, but somehow, some way,that is where my path led me.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's clutch.
I don't find my, my recovery,whatever lasts very long or be
interesting or tolerable byanybody else If I didn't
acknowledge a debt that I can'trepay back In my 12-step
(35:27):
community.
It's the same approach andmotto take to this work or it's
impossible, or you'll do itwrong.
You'll just be doing it thewrong way.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Or for the wrong reasons.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yeah, for the wrong reasons.
And out of all the places topick for the wrong reasons, this
isn't one of the fields.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
And that shows up pretty quickly.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
It does, and I think there's a lot of real people and
I think it's the majority ofcredible people that last long
in this field.
It doesn't take long.
It takes about four minutes ofbeing in a room and I know who
I'm in a room and I know who I'min a room with.
I think addiction and traumagive you Hawkeyes, so you know
(36:11):
who you're sitting with.
I could tolerate a lot as longas the objective is to help
people.
And is it a good program?
Are you harming people?
That'd be the first question.
If they can't answer that, Imean you shouldn't be around
here for very long.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yeah, I can tell pretty quickly.
You know, based on the culturethat we've created here at
Brookdale and our organizationalhealth and the commitment and
the passion that go with thework that we do, you can tell
pretty quickly whether or notsomebody is going to be along
for the ride for an extendedperiod of time.
Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, Well, let's pivot there.
Brookdale how did you?
What preceded Brookdale and howdid you land at Brookdale?
Because it's the most credibleand beautiful provider in our
area and I haven't met oneperson since its inception, and
(37:11):
especially now, that doesn'tfeel safe with their family,
friends and even providers.
Any provider you talk to, it'salways pursued as the first
option.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Well, that is the greatest compliment that you
could give us, so thank you.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
So I started getting.
When Doug Tiemann announced hisretirement at Cameron, you know
he was a big giant and I stoodon his shoulders and then the
others for a long time.
But when he announced hisretirement, the recruiters they
came out in full force, not justfor me but some of my peers too
, and you know that'sessentially how it started.
Just a phone call, hey, comefor a visit.
(37:51):
And I was resistant to itbecause Karen was my spiritual
home and I loved it there.
But I also knew that I hadgoals and ambitions that weren't
going to be met at thatorganization, at that time at
least.
And so, you know, I startedexploring and I got very curious
about what was out there.
I went to treatment one time,one place, one time, and so a
(38:14):
little bit different than theaverage American, I would say.
And from the moment I drovedown Back Mountain Road for the
first time and looked over to myright and saw this enormous
facility, I got that wow factorright away.
And when I came inside and feltthe magic that happens here and
(38:34):
met some of the people thatcreated the magic, you know, I
knew that it was something thatI was interested in being a part
of and so months and months ofnegotiations back and forth and
a lot of prayer and a lot ofreaching out asking people what
they thought.
You know it wasn't a decisionthat I took lightly and I had a
lot of help making it, buteventually I made it here about
(38:59):
three and a half years ago andit was a bumpy ride because it
wasn't what I was used to interms of what was going on
inside the house, and I've neverregretted my decision for one
moment.
There were certainly times Iwasn't sure I was going to make
it and should I cut my lossesand move on, but I was so
committed to the mission andreally the people, not just the
(39:25):
patients, but the team.
And you know, even during COVIDI mean Brookdale opened COVID
hit very challenging times butsomething kept us here and
moving forward and evolving andwe've recruited a fantastic team
of treatment professionals.
I've built a lot of teams overthe years but I have to say this
(39:46):
is by far the best team I'veever built.
And you know we've createdsomething really special based
on our own unique experiencesand, you know, with one common
goal the patient's experience.
Everything we do is about thepatient's experience.
Everything you do is about thepatient experience, and I will
never claim to be aone-size-fits-all organization.
(40:08):
We cannot help every singleperson that needs it, and I love
the fact that we are humbleenough to move on from things
when it's not a good fit andreally look at what we do well
here and stay true to that,instead of branching off in a
million different ways just totry to stay relevant in the
industry.
Speaker 1 (40:30):
It was just interesting to hear you
acknowledge you know there'stough times, especially COVID
transitions.
You know this perfect synergyof not only a sprawling,
beautiful piece of property thatlooks like you know it was
always designed for healing ortranquility, great real estate,
(40:50):
good team, and there's stillthis resilience.
You need to know should I quitor do I go on?
It's great to hear people inrecovery in the field talk about
that, because that's a strugglewhen you work in the field.
For that, because that's astruggle when you work in the
field, it could for anydimension.
Am I burning out?
Is this the wrong place?
Are these problems, unfixablereputation, all these things
(41:15):
converge and could createpressure.
You go home.
How do you deal with that whenyou to know to make the decision
, you punch through and youbrought Brookdale through your
leadership, a place you wantedto land after COVID?
How do you know?
How did you know not to quit?
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Well, the only thing I've ever quit in my life is
drinking.
So that working for me, youknow, I would say you know, I
would say instilled at a veryyoung age, was a strong work
ethic and I was determined tofigure this out.
I knew that we had, you know,all the parts.
I just needed to figure out howto pull everybody together and
(41:55):
get everybody flowing in thesame direction.
And I think my years ineducation, you know, building
teams and taking over schools,you know, and they weren't
always high performing, you know, a lot of times they were low
performing and underperforming.
And you know, I go in and I doan analysis of sorts and I
figure out, like where the weakspots are and where do we need
(42:16):
to improve.
And you know, building thisclinical program to be solid and
robust and helpful to peoplewas not an easy task.
Because and I had some thingsworking against me, you know,
and some people working againstme initially, and you know those
things have a way of workingthemselves out.
I just had to persevere andpush forward and I was
(42:38):
unapologetic about it.
I was unapologetic about what Ibelieved, I had a vision for
this place and I knew that if Icould ever get us to the other
side, that there'd be nothinglike us in this space.
And while we have not arrived weare not all the way there yet I
think we've made tremendousgains and we've created a very
(43:01):
therapeutic place for people tocome in the early stages of
their recovery, to get well andreally dialed into.
You know, thinking about everyhuman life that walks through
here as an opportunity to make adifference.
And what can we do to removethe barriers?
How can we keep this personhere longer so they get the help
(43:21):
that they need and increasetheir chances of staying sober?
So, really looking at the data,you know, looking at the
opportunity to help somebodymake a change, and you know the
recipe changed over the lastthree and a half years.
You know I came into this witha certain set of ideas and I've
had to pivot and adapt andovercome, based on resources at
(43:44):
the time.
But one thing never changed andthat was the heart of this
place, the mission, you know,stayed strong.
Speaker 1 (43:52):
Yeah, that's refreshing to hear because
missions could stay the same butapproaches could change.
Good leadership, you know,always could change their plan.
Because of what you just said,usually data and I can't help
but think Iowa had something todo with this Just being around
(44:13):
the soil of Iowa influencesAmerica.
Different Americans, toughpeople yeah.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
I mean, if there's anything I learned from my
Midwest family, it's that lifecan be beautiful and simple at
the same time.
Very different from my Southernfamily, but you're right, you
know just the simplicity of itand you know knowing when to say
okay, this is not working,let's pivot.
Speaker 1 (44:43):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
Making mistakes, taking risks and not and not
being afraid of that.
We've made plenty of mistakesalong the way, but we own them
and we learn from them and wepersevere.
Speaker 1 (44:55):
Well, a couple compliments to that Same
Removing barriers.
I think you guys are great atit because I've experienced it
firsthand with friends, familiesand people that ask for my
guidance, that you are excellentat that.
But moving way past that, adifferent you know it's a
(45:19):
different departure fromBrookdale and it's clear, in
continual care and fromproviders, friends and knowing
this, you are really at thelevel of care, the next level of
care, when you leave Brookdale.
What do I mean by that?
Not everyone is after a 30-dayinpatient, effective at reaching
(45:46):
a broad population in the sameclinical measures, that
definitions of what thisdisorder doesn't have to be
reestablished, there's, there's,there's a foundation there.
They're at a point where now wecould add more support.
It's not starting, you know,someone's three months or spent
30 days with Brookdale.
You're not starting at day oneagain.
You're not having to redefineand that that's hard when you
(46:09):
have a real curriculum, say fora partial hospitalization
program or intensive outpatient.
It doesn't match if thesethings weren't achieved at a 30
day treatment center and I couldpoint to you know, to all stars
, you being one of them whereyou meet people and you're like,
oh, okay, finally we could havethe discussions ready to go
(46:30):
along to the next stage, cause Ithink good programming is
slowly becomes universal to thegood providers of what programs
working, why, why?
Why try to be too weird about itthis is, this is working for a
larger number of people, and Isee you guys doing that and
setting a trend with thingschanging, and I look forward to
(46:53):
the way you'll respond to morebiometrics, the incorporation
you've done over the last coupleof years with AI through voice
analysis, crisis interventionthere's nowhere we're not near
that, but to watch how that'sbeing formed the right way.
It's great to see providersthat can do it like yourself,
(47:17):
and with that you have a parentcompany, correct?
It's a Discover.
How does that work overlap?
Does that give you all thesupports to to now innovate the
way you're approaching clientswith like a, like I mentioned,
ai?
Does this help you guys reallykind of be in the lead of, of of
(47:39):
doing the most comprehensiveinnovative approaches to
clinical care?
Speaker 2 (47:44):
Well, you know we were privately.
I went from nonprofit tofor-profit private ownership to
being acquired by a bigconglomerate out on the West
Coast, so very unfamiliarterritory with me.
And you know, initially I wasnot thrilled about that
transition.
It was a surprise of sorts andwhat I've learned is how to
capitalize off the resourcesthat they have to offer me.
(48:06):
And they respect Brookdale asan industry leader and one of
the reasons they acquired us wasbecause of our reputation and
our ability to lead here and todo it differently.
And you know to your point.
You know we try to preparepeople for what comes next,
whatever that may be, with thepsychoeducation and the therapy
(48:29):
you know and the exposure to 12steps Dharma recovery, smart
recovery, multiple pathways andprogramming at Brookdale is not
optional, you know, and Ibelieve that because of the
psychoeducation that I receivedwhen I was a patient, you know
it was a game changer for me,like I under.
How do you expect somebody tostay well from a chronic,
(48:51):
progressive and often fataldisease if they don't understand
it and they don't understandwhy we do the things that we do?
So we've built thatpsychoeducation into our daily,
daily life here, not just Mondaythrough Friday, but seven days
a week, multiple times a day,and we have a very rigorous
schedule here.
And once the acquisition hit,we learned that they had
(49:13):
resources available to us thatit would have taken us years to
acquire as an independentoperating facility.
And one of the things that youknow we have the pleasure of
participating in is what we callDiscovery 365.
And what I think it does is itreally challenges the industry.
You hear people say, well,relapse is part of recovery, and
(49:35):
that has never landed well withme.
Relapse is part of addictionand for some people it is part
of their journey and for somepeople it is part of their
(50:07):
journey and there are manyvariables that go into that.
But what D365 does is itcaptures analytics to scale the
provider patient interaction andit has like 16 separate data
collection points, which isabout four times the number
usually associated with anypost-discharge patient data
gathering opportunity.
So you know most places theycall, you know their alumni.
How are you doing?
Or you know do various differenttypes of check-ins this system
is it sends automated promptsthrough text or email and it's a
check-in and then the patienthas a digital response.
(50:28):
So they use their phone ortheir laptop and they answer a
series of questions and throughthe technology they analyze the
person's response, verbal andnonverbal.
So sometimes it's keywords youknow, and it can be anything.
You know.
The word relapse obviously is abuzzword, but it can be other
(50:49):
things you know, like having ahard time not doing well, the
inflections of their voice, therate of speech.
You know their body language,their facial movements and then
it captures that in a video andthat gets sent to us.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Oh, it's video capture Okay.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Yes, and you know, we're able to detect emotional
distress or high risk behavior.
You know if somebody is underthe influence and they're on
video, this technology is goingto capture us and it's going to
alert us and that way we canreach out.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
So this alert goes to you on your end prior to
viewing like.
Okay, this is flagged.
There's distress here, eitherthrough a voice analysis,
visuals, speech pattern,keywords, 16 points, 16 points
being a self-report from a videoaudio.
Are they typing answers attimes?
(51:41):
Is it an app or is it like alink?
Speaker 2 (51:47):
So we have an app where alumni can stay connected
to one another and they cancheck.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
Oh, it's social.
That's great.
Speaker 2 (51:56):
But this is different .
This is a technology platformwhere they do the video checkins
and it gets sent to usautomatically and if there is a
sign of any type of struggle,relapse, slurring of words,
emotional distress, any type ofhigh-risk behavior, we get an
alert and then we go watch thevideo and then we immediately
(52:18):
reach out to them.
And so we have a team of peoplethat have access to that.
Speaker 1 (52:21):
How long have you been using this?
That have a team of people thathave access to that.
How long have you been usingthis?
That is some of the data andengagement coming in that you're
like okay, we're in the rightdirection.
Speaker 2 (52:31):
We started this probably around a year ago, and
one of the things I'm most proudof is that Brookdale had the
highest level of engagement forD365.
Out of all of wow yes out of theentire division and that is
about the team.
That is about you know againthat education piece making sure
(52:52):
that people stay connected, getconnected.
You know they get a link that'ssent to them as soon as they
discharge and we want to getthem hooked in right away.
So we do a lot of educationwhile they're here and we do
alumni groups where the alumniteam and others really educate
the patient.
Speaker 1 (53:08):
On the use of it.
Speaker 2 (53:10):
Right.
Yeah, and you know, one of thethings I was taught in treatment
is the more closely connectedyou stay to your treatment
center post-treatment, thebetter your chances are of
staying sober, and I'm evidencethat that works, and a lot of
other people so.
This just takes it a stepfurther and makes that
connection easier for the personon the other end to stay
connected.
Speaker 1 (53:35):
What a great tool and it's the first in play in our
area, for sure because of theresources you have and it sounds
like engagement.
I was always.
I followed tech and AI withdeep curiosity and I was just
curious of how it's going to fitthis field.
That doesn't have to createincentives to compromise maybe a
clinical self-report, like yousaid with this video, and this
(53:58):
video can analyze that.
That answers my question.
So, are there incentives to beengaged or like socially with
365?
Are they?
Are they going to merge intoone lane?
That would be interesting tounderstand how someone's going
to come back.
Do you expect them to report upto a year for alumni follow up?
(54:20):
Is that what the goal is?
Speaker 2 (54:22):
It is.
It's to start connecting rightaway and to keep that connection
going until there's a break andthey need help or they need to
come back.
But for the person on the otherend, what they tell me is you
know, I love doing thesecheck-ins, even when I'm not
doing well, because undoubtedlysomebody's going to reach out to
(54:44):
me either way and we're a veryhigh touch organization, not
just while the patient's here,but post-treatment.
You know, we're reaching out tothem one week, 30 days, 60 days
, 90 days, and we have manyplatforms for them to stay
connected.
We have online alumni groups,we have in-person meetings on
campus, you know, and thatconnection, which is the
(55:06):
opposite of active addiction, ispart of what makes us special
and that, you know, for anorganization that's so young, I
was wildly impressed by howconnected people were to
Brookdale post-treatment andwe've taken it to the next level
in the last year, year and ahalf no, I, I see that same.
Speaker 1 (55:25):
um, I don't want to call it status, but you know the
status of being a karen alumniand the connections and bonds
that makes, even to strangers.
If you meet them in the futureand you're both karen alumni
there, there is something realincredible there and Brookdale
being the new kid on the block,you know if we want to, it's
(55:48):
there, it's there in the alumniI experience in my area and
people.
You guys are doing a great job.
Last nerd question isbiometrics.
You have a beautiful gym thatdoes biometrics record kind of
diagnostics of what's going on.
Is there any plans in thefuture for a data collection of
(56:09):
biometrics of alumni orcontinual care that would be in
the regard of you know yourbasic vitals coming in or
collected if someone wanted topursue that, to see if they're
reaching a place thathistorically you could say, oh,
this is dangerous, given historyof the biometrics.
(56:30):
Or could record sleep, remsleep being disturbed or any of
this?
Are you guys that far ahead?
It seems like.
Well, this is what's comingright as a relapse alert.
Speaker 2 (56:44):
It's definitely coming and I would love to start
that process the minute theystep foot here.
Speaker 1 (56:49):
Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (56:50):
And you know, not just for.
You know, safety is always ournumber one priority at Brookdale
, not just for measuring whilethey're here and but beyond, and
I think there's so manyvariables that go into relapse.
Let's just take the sleep.
You know sleep hygiene is veryimportant.
The sleep center in our braingets destroyed when we abuse
drugs and alcohol or use themaddictively and it takes time
(57:13):
and that's a big trigger forpeople and a and a catalyst for
relapse for a lot of people,that insomniac state, you know,
the only thing that's going tohelp me sleep I'm going crazy is
alcohol or drugs and havingthat, you know, biometric if you
will, to measure that not justwhile they're here, but beyond.
I think we're definitely headedin that direction and I'm down
(57:38):
to pilot any program.
You know that that could makeus more effective and to
increase the patient'sopportunity to get healthy and
stay healthy.
Speaker 1 (57:50):
Yeah, I think that is the future.
It's going to take a lot ofolder models or people even in
recovery that have greatclinical approaches.
It's almost this admission.
How much of us is automatedhave great clinical approaches?
It's almost this admission.
How much of us is automated?
(58:10):
And I think it freaks people outthat especially have strong
relationships to a concept offree will, volition, or that
their recovery is this puredestiny, fantasy of will, and I
think they don't even know whythey're resisting some of this
stuff.
But I mean, we're not incontrol of our hair growing or
how often our heart beats.
This goes down to the momentswe dream, what we're even
(58:31):
ruminating about.
I think this window of AI isgoing to tell us a lot about
ourselves, especially inaddiction.
I really am hopeful to that.
But it's also going to have toredefine how people digest the
word spirituality.
I would think I'm not saying itdiminishes it, but you're going
(58:52):
to have to see.
You're going to have achallenge of the context of what
that could mean to some peoplethat haven't considered it again
.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
Right, yeah, I mean I think you know there are some
people that will neverparticipate in D365 for whatever
reason, and the same for whatyou're, you know, kind of
talking about, but for me, youknow, any information that we
can provide to help treat thisinsidious disease.
(59:19):
You know I'm down you knowthere's just so many variables
that go into this and you know,I think information is power and
you know any type of data pointthat we can pull to say, hey,
this is how we can do thisbetter, or we need to be looking
at this, you know, I think isthe way to go.
You know, I mean, we've evolvedin this industry, you know, and
(59:44):
I think we had a responsibilityto evolve and we also are
losing more people than ever,and you know we need to be
forward thinking and looking atthese things as opportunities
for progress.
Speaker 1 (59:55):
Yeah, I think I agree .
I think a lot of people agree,and I think drug culture and the
longevity of an addiction haschanged from the way you and I
started.
You started in your 30s but Ihad an adolescence that had far
more wiggle room of not severeconsequence, to say, with
alcohol, marijuana, lsd.
(01:00:16):
Your first night starting anaddiction can kill you now
because you, just because it's adifferent drug distribution.
It's synthetic drugs.
They're all can you know,consolidated into a gas station
and they're legal.
Like a gas station for me iswhere you stole a pack of camels
.
Now there's a casino in theredrinks I've never heard of fake
(01:00:41):
opiates, fake marijuana, thcblends and and you don't even
have to socialize your addictioncould start right there at a
gas station.
It's crazy.
So I think what you're sayingis definitely going to have to
accelerate with that if you'regoing to reach and save lives.
Amy, we're kind of winding down.
(01:01:02):
Is there anything we did notcover that maybe you would want
to talk about, or a question Ididn't ask?
Speaker 2 (01:01:10):
No, I thank you for the opportunity to talk with you
.
You know I always love you know, hearing about other people's
stories, and you know I lovehaving you as an aftercare
provider.
I think it's really challengingto find like-minded facilities
and we've been blessed to find ahandful, including yours, where
(01:01:31):
we seem to have the same goalin mind and the same heart for
helping people.
And, you know, if we do nothingelse for the rest of our lives,
I'd say job well done.
Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
Yeah, this is it for us, and we're flattered and it
feels really good to berecognized that we're doing it
right.
Speaker 2 (01:01:49):
Yes indeed.
Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
Well, hey, I hope to talk to you soon and thanks for
popping on.
Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Yes, thank you, joe.
Have a good day.
Speaker 1 (01:01:57):
You too.
Bye, bye.
I'd like to thank you forlistening to another episode of
All Better.
You can find us on allbetterfmor listen to us on Apple
Podcasts, spotify, googlePodcasts, stitcher, iheartradio
and Alexa.
(01:02:17):
Special thanks to our producer,john Edwards, and engineering
company 570 Drone.
Please like or subscribe to uson YouTube, facebook, instagram
or Twitter and, if you're not,on social media, you're awesome.
Looking forward to seeing youagain.
(01:02:38):
And remember, just becauseyou're sober doesn't mean you're
right.
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