ep1 Dan Mangan is still nice

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
My name is Glen Erickson.
Welcome to Almost Famous Enough.
My guest is Dan Mangan, a singersongwriter from Vancouver,
British Columbia, Canada.
Two times a Juno award winner,two times a father, three times
Polaris music prize shortlisterand all around nicest guy in
Canadian music.
Yes, still nice.

(00:25):
Now if you have any familiaritywith Dan's early discography,
I'm pretty sure you already gotthe pun, but being nice doesn't
build a career by itself, doesit?
What about the hustle, thedrive, the talent.
The connection to the fans.
We talk about all that and more.
Thank you for spending some timewith us.

(00:48):
This is Dan Mangan.

Glen Erickson (01:10):
What, uh, what does, you know, renowned
recording artist, Dan Mangan'sMondays on a November afternoon
look like at this exactintersection of your life?

Dan (01:23):
Well, I just got, I was in Tofino over the weekend for a
couple of gigs.
So just prior to logging onhere, I was counting merch, uh,
stock and, um, sort of in my, inthe corner of my basement, I
have like a shelving unit with abunch of, you know, it's where I
keep all the records and tshirts and stuff.
So, uh, I was, I was preparinggetting that all counted.

(01:43):
So I know what's going on in mymerch world.
Um, yeah, you know, it, ithonestly.
How do I spend my days?
There's a lot of differentthings going.
Sometimes I'm working onrecordings.
Sometimes it's stuff like this.
Sometimes, uh, honestly, it'sjust a couple hours of email.
Um, I, I try to clean out.
I have like a text messagething.
People can text me and there'slike thousands of, you know,

(02:06):
unread messages in there.
So I'm always going in theretrying to clean out that inbox.
Um, yeah.
But also at these days, I'm, uh,we're mixing the new records.
So, uh, a lot of listening, youknow, and then like, man, I feel
like if you applied, like with aresume for the job of an artist
today, 60 percent of your jobdescription would just be like,

(02:30):
um, content creation, which is,uh, Mm hmm.

you seen the meme going around with the Seinfeld
clip about like CEO right nowrealizing they have to become a
content creator and

Dan (02:44):
Everyone.
Yeah.
Like it doesn't matter.
Like, you know, you can't marketan idea unless the person at the
top is a good storyteller, youknow?
Um, yeah, it's like this weirdthing where we, we banished the
gatekeepers.
We no longer need the magazinesand the meat like print media to
tell us what's good.
No, the reviews don't meananything anymore.

(03:06):
And so what that means is thatto cut through the fray, You
have to kind of have some kindof viral visual audio visual
thing happening.
And so, uh, everybody has theirown marketing.
It's like, like even if you hirea really great marketing agency
now or something, they're justgoing to be like, okay, well,
you know, here's how we're goingto tell your story.

(03:27):
And you, you sign with a recordlabel.
And the only reason any labelwould sign anyone now is if they
are really good at social media.
And, um, It's so it's like yousign with them and they're like,
okay, yeah, we're going to dumpsome money on your social media
account and, you know, turn itall into paid ads.
But like the creator, the personis still, they're the ones who

(03:47):
have to come up with all this,you know, inane daily ways of
engaging their audience.
And, um, so nobody really hasany good idea, any ideas
anymore.

well, and I think in this day and age, people
might be more surprised to hearyou say that you're still at
this point in your careercounting the merch more so than
being surprised that you are,you know, 60 percent content
creator in your, in your role.
We're so used to it.
I'm wondering what your thoughtsare like, you know, five years
ago, maybe just before thepandemic.

(04:19):
I mean, that was a pretty commonrhetoric.
Still, if you were talking toindustry people, right, that
they were just starting to lookat even long before that
people's social counts and, andmaking decisions based on that.
But I mean, that world haschanged so significantly, even
over the last five years thatwe're using this term content

(04:39):
creator, like content becoming apejorative essentially for

Dan (04:44):
Uh huh.
Yeah, I mean, I think I resistedit for a while.
Many artists of my generationdid because they're like, this
isn't what I signed up to do.
This is not, you know, um, I cutmy teeth touring and making
records and, you know, You know,all of a sudden I have to spend

(05:05):
all my days like, you know, infront of a ring light, trying to
figure out what the best angleis to make this guitar look cool
or something.
And, um, you know, I, Ieventually, uh, I resisted, I
resisted, I resisted.
There was a moment where I waslike, okay, if I want a career
in the new ecosystem, I have toplay ball.

(05:26):
Like I have to be a part of,Socials.
And, um, it was like a decidedthing.
Like, you could probably scrollback on my feed far enough back
and see, like, there was yearswhere I never even posted a
picture of myself.
Like, Instagram was like, you,you would post the things that
you see.
It was your perspective.
That's what Instagram was for.

yeah,

Dan (05:48):
And then eventually some people were doing selfies and
that was like kind of cringy.
Like, Ooh, you put a picture ofyourself on your Instagram feed
and then it fully flips and nowit's just, you're so now you're
supposed to go on tour and havesomeone follow you around just
videoing you being cool.
And then like post that, youknow, it's like this weird, it's

(06:08):
completely shifted,

yeah,

Dan (06:10):
but I, but I, but I really had to play, I had to play ball
in whatever fashion.
I mean,

me, because, um, I think when I was taking a look
at this and preparing to talk toyou, I was realizing, you know,
the length of your career andsome of the things I've seen,
there's just a few things that,you know, there's a thread that
goes through so many of yourthings.
And I think what I'm reallyinterested in talking as much as

(06:41):
we can in the time we have to.
pick apart some of thosethreads.
I think,

Dan (06:46):
Um, Mm hmm.

when it, what it took to jump off and do this
full time and become an artist.
And maybe I, I recollect thatbecause I've got a longer
history with you,

Dan (07:17):
Mm

you

Dan (07:17):
hmm.

transparency, we could probably

Dan (07:19):
Oh, my pleasure.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.

(07:41):
Okay.

needed you to be the first person I talked to
because when I thought of thiswhole

Dan (07:53):
Yeah, we

the very beginning, but pretty close to
it.
And

Dan (08:09):
time ago.

record in the fall of 2007 and not typically
it's, you know, your firstrelease, it's very local centric
only, but I was doing all thiswork cause I so desperately had
to succeed on CBC radio three,who are the curate, the curators
of indie.
And that's all I wanted.
Right.
I want

Dan (08:41):
At Grant Lawrence R 330, man, that was it,

percent that community, the 650 people that
would come on and chat.
While,

Dan (08:49):
every day,

was live every day.
And, um, and so in January, theyput out the ones to watch list
and we were on that list and youwere also on that list.
And I think you had just putout, uh, robots on the EP,

Dan (09:03):
hmm.

um, around that time.
And obviously that caught fireon radio three and had a lot of
success, but, it got myattention and I know that.
Soon after we crossed paths atsome places.
Um, probably most famously, um,was breakout West in Brandon,
Manitoba.

(09:26):
we were there and we had twogigs on the same night, which
was a big deal then.
'cause now they had two gigs outto everybody, but they didn't
back then.
So were feeling, you know,pretty.
Plumed and, um, but in betweenthe gigs we were going, we made
a point of stopping the van atyour gig and

Dan (09:46):
Mm.

near the end of the set.
And, uh, I don't know if youprobably don't remember, but I,
and my bandmate ran up on stageand started singing robots with
you, like, the arrogant assholesthat we were.
So, um,

Dan (09:59):
That's great.
I'm glad.

yeah.
Okay, good.
Uh, I've kind of inserted myselfin your storyline along the way,
it seems sometimes.
But, I think what I wanted to dotoday, cause I see so many
threads and I'm going to try notto jump around too much, but I'm
a, I'm such a sidebar rabbithole person, uh, it's going to
inevitably happen.
So I apologize, but I did, ifyou can believe this, I actually

(10:25):
charted out your album career soI could, cause I'm a visual
thinker.

Dan (10:29):
Mm.
Yeah.

to this is, where the strings go through things
is, and I named it peaks andvalleys.
So, which, you know, apropos foryour song title, but, what I
kind of did and, and I didn't dothis to be mean, but I literally
started to draw a lineunderneath the chart of your
timeline

Dan (11:04):
hmm.

My public, because I think I share the
perception of the public forthis, not a personal one on the

Dan (11:11):
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.

were going up where I thought maybe they were
coming down they were going backup

Dan (11:18):
Yeah.

I think I'm interested on what your
perspective is.
And the reason I am down isbecause nobody actually knows
what the hell's going on, right?
Like,

Dan (11:28):
Mm hmm.

look like a peak and you may have had who knows
what going up.
so the first point of entry Iwas hoping you could talk about
was I saw a trajectory goingright from probably around the
time file under music picked upyour first record, right?

Dan (11:44):
Mm hmm.

2007.
And that kind of led into themomentum towards.
Nice, nice, very nice.

Dan (11:55):
Yeah.

to me, looks like it's going straight up.
Like things just keep growingand building.
You know, all the way past OldFortune.

Dan (12:05):
Yeah, I would say like, cause, cause there were that
first record Postcards andDaydreaming was actually
released with different artworkand a slightly different track
list in 2006.
And then I went on my 2005,sorry.
And then spring of 2006, I didmy very first tour, which was
just BC and Alberta.
I booked it all on MySpace, um,like literally like mailing

(12:28):
ahead, you know, port, uh, do aTangs with, with a eight by 10
glossy photo of me and.

you had to print out all the maps back then.
Before

Dan (12:38):
Yeah, there was no Google Maps, you had to do, you see,
there was MapQuest, so you couldgo on MapQuest and then print it
out, um, but then if you missedyour turn, like, you're screwed,

Yeah,

Dan (12:46):
um, so there was a good long while there where there
might have been like anincremental slow incline.
But it was slow for, for acouple of years and, you know,
2007.
So this is like a full year anda half after that record was
first put out, they picked it upand they said, Hey, let's give
this a proper release withdistribution.

(13:07):
Um, and I said, great.
We gave it a new, a new cover,took a song off, added a new
song, called it the firstrecord.
And then from there, I wentanywhere that would take me.
I went to Europe.
I went to Australia.
I went to the States.
I booked it large, you know,booked a lot of stuff on my own.
I had a little bit of help fromvarious people here and there.
Um, I had an early manager for alittle while.

(13:30):
That relationship didn't go verywell.
Um, and there was like a, areal, you know, it was growing
in that like I was doing stuff.
I was still broke as hell and Iwas serving tables and I was
just like riding on, I was goingdeeper and deeper into debt.
I'd taken out a line of creditto record that first record that

(13:51):
hadn't been paid back.
And um, I had all these newsongs for Nice, Nice, Very Nice,
but I didn't really know andhave any money and I didn't have
anyone that would pay for it.
Like I would, you know, fileinto music, we're like, we're
not going to pay for you to makea record, you know.
Um, they were just a tiny littleindie label.
And so I, with like, you know,11, 000 in debt from the first

(14:14):
record, I made up a businessplan of what I was going to do.
And this is before GoFundMe,this is before Kickstarter.
I went to family and friends.
Like, you know, I went to likefriends of my parents and stuff
like that, people who had knownme for a long time and I said,
look, this is what I'm trying todo.
I'm trying to raise this money.

(14:34):
Um, and you know, like my blessthem.
Like my, I think my, my, my mom,my step mom's like old
university pal who's a lawyer.
Kicked in like a thousand bucks.
Like, you know, cause he just,he had, he had seen me play in
LA and he, he was like, yeah,I'll kick in some money on this.
And, um, I raised 11, I was likealready a 50, maybe 15, 000

(15:00):
bucks in debt or something likethat.
And I raised 11, 000 to makenice, nice, very nice.
And I went out to Toronto and Ispent a month sleeping, uh, at
a.
Another, you know, another, Ileaned on so many people.
I was staying with family,friends in the beach and taking
this, the, uh, streetcar all theway across town to Parkdale to
create, you know, to record thatwith John Critchley in Parkdale.

(15:22):
it was like a month there, youknow, every day, maybe we'd take
off like one or like one weekendday or something.
It just seemed like we werethere all the time.
And, uh, and by that time, likeI was sort of do or die.
Like I felt like I had thesesongs.
Like particularly like basketand robots and road regrets and
sold.

(15:42):
Um, I was like these songs, likeevery time I play them live
people, I can see it in theirfaces.
There's an exciting thing goingon here.
Um, and I was terrified.
This was like my last try.
You know what I mean?
It was sort of like, I'd gone sodeeply in debt on both things.
Now I'm in debt to all theselike people in my life.
And I do remember having thislike tenacious, audacious, and

(16:06):
like kind of just naive optimismthat I, I was just going to do
it like this is the only thing.
And, and I kind of remember Iwas made, I had like a store on
my website.
I made my own PayPal widget.
I was going to the post officeevery week and mailing off like
five to 15 CDs that were sellingon my own website directly to

(16:27):
me.
Um, there was like, I was, I, Iended up at Grant Lawrence's
party, Christmas party, said thewhale were playing there.
And Tyler from said, the whalesays to grant, like, you should
let Dan play, like give him aguitar.
I didn't, you know, I was justattending.
I was just like hanging out.
And, um, Grant's like, nah, Idon't know.
We don't need a singersongwriter now.
Like let's crank the ACDC kindof thing.

(16:49):
And Tyler's like, no, let Danplay.
And, uh, so I played robots,brought the house down.
Everybody's singing.
Grant Lawrence is looking at melike, who the fuck are you?
And, um, And I, you know, kindof got in his head with that
song and him right away.
He was like, do you have thatsong recorded?
I'll put it on the podcast.
And I was like, no, I don't haveit recorded yet.
I had to live with a crappydemo.

(17:10):
And he's like, okay, let me knowwhen it's ready.
And, um, so when we put thatout, um, we had a publicist, uh,
Ken Beattie.
Uh, I remember going for a beerwith him being like, let's do
this.

had the

Dan (17:23):
Um,

Great man.
Great man.

Dan (17:25):
guy.
He's done so much great Canadianmusic.
It's unbelievable.
Um, and, uh, we put out robotson an EP robot hearing EP is
what it was called.
I have five songs on it and, uh,it went right to number one on
the, on, because you know, Granthad, I'd already like sort of
fused my way into grants.

(17:46):
And he was the tastemaker.
Like if you could get on grantspodcast, then you're going to be
up, you're going to be playedright alongside black mountain
and, you know, Chad Van Galenand, and feist and broken social
scene and Sam Roberts and likeall of those sort of people who
are just crushing it, JoelPlaskett in the mid aughts.
and so that was like a big, bigdeal.
And then I was up for the vergeaward that September.

(18:10):
Um, nice, nice, very nice tojust come out and I was just
like relentless.
I was like emailing everyone onmy newsletter, like, please vote
for me for the verge award.
Please vote for me for the vergeaward.
and basically like a couple ofdays before the virtual workers
in Toronto, um, Jeff leak whoran the, he's like, so you're
going to be here at the, at theawards in Toronto.
And I was like, no, no, no, man,I can't, I can't afford to come

(18:31):
up there.
And he's like, I think youshould be here.
I think you're doing better onthe voting than you think you
are.
And I was like, Okay.
So, you know, I scraped togethera flight to Toronto, I get to
Toronto.
I won 25, 000 bucks for theverge award artist of the year.
Yeah.

am I right in that you bought a Ford flex?

Dan (18:51):
I bought a Ford flex and I named it Virginia because it was
bought by the verge award.
Yeah.

I did remember

Dan (18:56):
And I took that thing back and forth.
So it was just like, everythingwas happening, but honestly,
like all of the lead up to thatmoment, there was.
So much pushing the boulder upthe hill and feeling like you're
getting nowhere.
I got a thousand no's.
I, I emailed nice, nice, verynice to like the whole album, to
every agent in Canada, likeliterally every agent.

(19:18):
Like I went on every agentwebsite and I found the email
address of every agent at everyagency that I could find and
think of one person got back tome.
So I worked with that oneperson.
Um, And he was like a junioragent.
He didn't, he had one other bandthat he worked with.
And, uh, he was my agent for acouple of years.
Um, so it was just like, it waslike, everything was just like,

(19:41):
I did not get the frontentrance, you know, no, like I
did not get discovered.
Uh, you could say grant, youknow, helped in a, in a big way,
but like, I didn't get a bigrecord deal.
It was like, I went back andforth across Canada playing to
five people, 10 people, 20people, 50 people, a hundred
people over and over and overagain.
And then eventually when thatrecord hit.

(20:01):
And robots was, you know,crushing it and then the verge
award.
And then I got signed to artsand crafts and it was just like,
boom, boom, boom, boom, boom,boom, boom.
Then over the span of like sixmonths, it went from playing to
a hundred people to playing to athousand people.
It was just like, wham.
And every time I would show upin Edmonton or Calgary or
anywhere, I would, my face wouldbe looking at me from the, you

(20:23):
know, arts weekly in the, inthe, at the coffee shop.
And it got to the point where Iwas like doing so many
interviews every day that like,I would forget which journalist
was which article.
And it was like, there came apoint where I just stopped
reading the articles anymorebecause there were so many of
them.
And it realized that like, I wasgetting the benefit of the doubt
in a very, very real way.

(20:44):
My CD was the top pot on thepile on their music editor's
desk.
They'd heard my name mentioned.
They were like, okay, we mightas well talk about this guy.
Um, and so when you're talkingabout that trajectory, it was
like a hockey stick.
It was like, wham, but there wasso much lead up before then of
just nothing, nothing, nothing,nothing, nothing, where you're

(21:04):
just trudging through the mud.

well, I mean, that's where maybe that's why
I've always felt, this likepersonal set of kinship.
because again, not just thetiming of the band that I was in
at the time, and a couple ofthose things, but similarly, I
like hounded Grant Lawrence.
we had like a men's rec leaguehockey team of like beer league

(21:27):
hockey players.
Which he was really into andthere's a tournament exclaim put
on in Toronto.
So we, uh, we had just gottenour first single on radio three
and I got the guys to scrapetogether money to go and play
the tournament in Toronto, justso I could run into Grant
Lawrence there.
And.

Dan (21:44):
Yeah.

And I convinced him to play a second single,
which they normally didn't dofor people at the time.
And even in 2009, when KenBeattie hated me for this, but,
um, I, I went to Vancouver topick up our CDs that were
printed in Vancouver and see myparents who were in the lower

(22:05):
mainland.
And I decided to take a CD andmake an appointment and go and
see Grant Lawrence live on theair.
And this was.
two months before the actualrelease of the CD, to which Ken
Beattie was very upset.
But, so that relentlessness Itotally get and relate to.

(22:25):
You know, the story of my bandwas within three and a half
years after that, we got to apoint where we had to have the
talk about How do we keep going?
Should we keep going?
Do people really give a shit?
And I, I'll never forget to thisday sitting around a pizza place

(22:45):
before a gig.
That was kind of one of thosesoul sucking gigs and having a
hard conversation and realizinglike, A couple of the guys
sitting across from me had losttheir hope.
And I think that's one of thethings you're talking about.
I'm,

Dan (23:02):
Yeah, that's it.
That does.

like, yeah, when you pull that back out of
yourself, what, what was thething

Dan (23:10):
So I, I,

hockey stick turned up?
Yeah,

Dan (23:12):
yeah, I had a, I had a band in high school called basement
suite.
And my best friend, Simon wasthe guitar player in that band.
And he played lead guitar on myfirst record.
And there was a moment where I'mlike, okay, let's do this.
Like in my mind, I'm like, we'regoing to be cold play, you know?
And, uh, he was like, uh, Dan,nobody cares about this as much

(23:34):
as you do.
Like, He was like, I got plants.
He's like, I'm going to go toschool.
I don't, I'm going to go do polisci.
I'm not interested in trying to,you know, have a fantasy being a
rock band.
And he's like, I love music.
I love playing it, but that'sjust not me.
And I was, I took it reallypersonally.
And, um, you know, at the time,Jerry Maguire was, uh, was kind
of like, uh, uh, still really inthe zeitgeist.

(23:56):
And there's this moment there'sa moment in Jerry Maguire where
she, she goes, I thought I wasin love enough for the both of
us.
And, uh, and I, that's how Ifelt with him.
He's like, I, I felt like I wasso excited about making a go of
it in music that I, myenthusiasm could make up for his
detriment that I was soenthusiastic that, uh, it didn't

(24:18):
matter.
Like I could pull him along andthen realizing, Oh shit.
No, actually, uh, he's out.
And I'm the only one that can dothis.
That was, it was a really hardmoment, but it was a really
important moment because Irealized that no one else was
going to do this for me.
And still to this day, like,even if you have Coldplay's
manager on your side.

(24:39):
He can make a couple big phonecalls for you and maybe he can
get you a couple support slotswith other, you know, bands that
his friends manage or whatever.
I don't know, but he cannot makeyour career.
Like it's only you.
It's really, it all hangs onyou.
If you're Billie Eilish orwhoever, like it's all you, it's
like 99 percent you.
any, like anything in thisworld, the hardest thing to do

(25:01):
in this world is an effort.
That would die if you juststopped doing it, you know, if
you, if you're like a sales repfor Microsoft, if you quit,
Microsoft keeps going, you know,but you are the chairman, the
CEO, and like the artisticdirector of the Wheat Pool or
Dan Mangan, like, if I justdecide to go, I'm not into this,

(25:24):
literally that day it dies, it'sover, there's nothing more.

in the world right now, maybe you agree, are
telling you that that's thereason you should stop, Like, I
hear that rhetoric a lot,except, except in the music
community or the arts communitywhere we hold these dreams so
sacred, right?

Dan (25:45):
think, I think two things, I think one, everybody should
have music in their life on somelevel.
You know, whether you love it oryou play it or what it's good
for your brain, it's good foryour mental state, it's good for
everything, or if not music,some other creative outlet
painting or dance or, you know,writing or whatever, like
everybody needs somethingcreative in their life.
There's, I think that thatthat's, but not everybody needs

(26:06):
to do this professionally.
This is, and in fact, I thinkyou should quit unless you
can't.
Because it's like, unless youactually realistically think
that you will not make it,unless you, unless you do it,
that's how I felt.
I felt like there was no, Ihadn't, I could not imagine
getting a day job and likeworking in a cubicle somewhere.

(26:28):
That to me was death.
That was worse than death.
And so I was just like, Willingto do absolutely anything to
make it work.
And then what I figured out, youknow, in a roundabout way was
that that doing absolutelyanything to make it work is the
same thing as you would be doingin a cubicle.
I had to like, you know, the artis separate from the business.
There are two different things,but when it comes, when it comes

(26:51):
to the business, you have totreat it like a job.
If you want this to be your job,if you want to be a full time
musician, then you have totreat.
being a musician like a job, notthe music, not the writing and
the recording of it, not theperforming of it, but literally
everything else has to betreated like a job.
If you started up a coffee shop,you'd be there 18 hours a day
for the first two years.

(27:12):
You'd figure out, you know,where are you getting your baked
goods from?
Where are you supplying?
You're sourcing your coffeefrom, what are the chairs feel
like?
What is the font on the sandwichboard?
How are you going to get peoplein there?
How are you going to get themcoming back?
How are you going to make itfeel cozy and community driven
in there?
Or whatever.
So all of those things you woulddo for your coffee shop, you
have to do that for your band.

(27:32):
I had no money, so, you know, Ineeded photos done.
I remember like literally likesetting up like.
Like timers on a like a crappyearly digital camera on a thing
and like posing for it andlooking at me like, oh, it's so
stupid.
And then I would, you know, Ididn't know how to make a
website.
I couldn't afford to hiresomeone to make a website.
So I, like, learned early HTMLand I made myself a crappy

(27:54):
website.
And then I was like, oh, it'sactually not that hard.
And I.
Figured out how to put a PayPalwidget in there and I had a
little store going and stuff.
And, you know, most thingsaren't that hard if you just
apply yourself to it and you getover the imposter syndrome of
feeling like, oh, that's notwhat I'm, I'm not a web
designer.
I don't know how to do that.
I didn't know how to usePhotoshop, but I learned how to
use Photoshop so that I couldmake myself a one sheet to print

(28:15):
off and send around.
I just had nobody else thatcould do it.
And.
I couldn't afford to pay anyoneto do it.
So I just figured it all outmyself.
So in, in the weird roundaboutway, I didn't want to have a
job.
And then I ended up having a jobthat was 24 hours a day, seven
days a week.
You know, my, my ongoing jokeis, uh, every day of my life is

(28:35):
Saturday, but I work Saturdays.
And that's, you know, that's howit's felt ever since, you know,
and I, and I still feel thatway.
And I know we have, we have, youknow, you probably have a thing
you want to get into with thetimeline and the ups and downs
and stuff, but to this day, Istill feel like I have no
fucking clue what I'm doing.
And I'm just skimming alongbeing, you know, thankful for

(28:57):
whatever has, has happened andjust wanting so much more.

Yeah.
No, that's good.
Like, fuck the timeline.
I don't care about that.
But, I'm more interested in, inthat part because I think this
thread, I think Runs througheverything.
I think a lot of people would bevery surprised that you still
feel that way.
You don't

Dan (29:15):
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.
Mm.

is what are the shifts that have.
you the most because I think ineverything we do, right, we work
hard because what you justdescribed is, I loved and I
wanted what I wanted so bad.
I was willing to do all theother work to make it happen,
you know, and, um, I think somepeople wrestle with, know, what

(29:58):
if I don't, maybe they questionwhether they have the
scrappiness more than theyquestion whether they have the
chops as an, as an artist andwhat are the things that have
happened in your career thatmight have taken that down a
notch?
What are the changes that are.
occurred again, if I was talkingtimeline, know, it looked like

(30:20):
you went on a straight inclineup to club meds and then

Dan (30:24):
Mm-Hmm.

you didn't, you know, you got the critical
acclaim.
You didn't get the same,

Dan (30:29):
Well, sort of,

acclaim.
Well, sort of,

Dan (30:32):
yeah.

I mean, there was

Dan (30:34):
I,

there.
I mean, the way you've put itbefore, you could tell me if

Dan (30:37):
Mm-Hmm.

accurate.
Um, The expectations that youhad didn't roll

Dan (30:43):
me.

that, that, that takes a piece out of you.

Dan (30:47):
Oh, yeah.

what, what places along the timeline have, have
had these things take a pieceout

Dan (30:53):
Yeah.
Okay.
So, you know, nice, nice.
Very nice.
Sort of gives me a career andthen there's all this pressure
to deliver with the next one,which was a fortune.
and.
That record was, I feel likemore artistically daring than
Nice, Nice, Very Nice.
And it did great.
Won some Juno awards.
Uh, it's sort of likesolidified.
A bunch of the hype prior thatwas still kind of like foggy and

(31:18):
smoky, and it made it intosomething solid, you know, like
a nice, nice, very nice.
We were sort of like gettingthose side stages at festivals.
And then for a fortune, it waslike, okay, now we're getting
the main stage.
And if it's a smaller festival,we're going to headline the main
stage.
And if it's a big festival,we'll go, you know, Second last
or third last before metric orwhatever.
And, um, so it sort ofsolidified us as like a live

(31:40):
band and it's solidified at meas a songwriter in a certain
particular kind of way.
Then I had kids and I was soburnt out.
I've been playing like 200 showsa year.
And I said to my manager,Kieran, I was like, I think I
need a break from this.
Like I need to hunker down andwe're going to have a kid.
And I want to be, uh, you know,hands on dad, I want to be
around.
So, you know, maybe we take abreak from touring for a little

(32:03):
bit and, you know, find someother, so I, I did some work
doing some scoring and stufflike that.
Stuff that I could do withoutbeing away.
I wanted to be home.
And then a couple of yearspasses and I'm like, I, and I,
I, I'm the first to admit, I hadtaken it for granted.
I said before, like I wasgetting the benefit of the
doubt.
And I was like a person that thename was flying around the

(32:25):
Canadian music scene enough thatit was sort of like You know, it
was just like, Oh yeah, thatguy.
Sure.
And then, uh, I kind of wentaway for a couple of years and I
dipped my head back in the sand,had kids focused on, you know,
being a dad.
And I remember feeling like Icould turn the faucet back on if
I wanted to and get thatfamiliar feeling of, yeah,

(32:46):
everything's going my way.
And I remember the, the metaphorof turning back the faucet and
it was just like drip, drip andsaying to my manager, okay,
like, let's go full guns ofblazing.
And, uh, they were like, okay,well, you need to make another
record.
We made club meds.
Now I killed myself for thatrecord.
It was like, Six, seven monthsof just day in day out pain and,

(33:09):
and, you know, glory and gleeand, but it was this like
dystopian opus and I felt likenice, nice, very nice was my,
you know, simple folk record.
Oh, fortune was my expansiveorchestral record.
This was my, this was the one,like this was my okay computer.
This was my, you know, I wasgoing to go deep.
And we were going to be daringand the record is complicated

(33:32):
and full of polyrhythm and it'sdark and it's like a dystopian
kind of narrative of things thatI foresaw on the wall.
Uh, it turns out in many ways Iwas sort of, um, seeing much of
what was to come.
And, uh, and I thought that whenthat record came out, you know,
I'd be going on tour withRadiohead and we were going to

(33:53):
be, you know, the, the biggest.
coolest thing.
Um, we got a handful of amazingreviews.
Um, and we made a mistake ofsaying in an interview with
exclaim that we were not goingto play robots on the tour.
Uh, because I was like, youknow, in my sort of arrogant,

(34:14):
State of mind.
I was like, I'm over that.
We're done with that song.
and it tanks the tour, theticket sales of that tour.
Now this is back when printmedia really kind of still meant
something.

Yeah.

Dan (34:26):
And, uh, and I think that, you know, truthfully the band I
had at the time was veryintense.
We were an extremely intenseensemble vibe wise, music wise,
the shows were great, but Ithink we were pretty cocky and
pretty, um, a little, a littlearrogant.
Uh, about, you know, justthinking that we were, we were

(34:48):
awesome.
And, I think that that energydidn't really help us in that
time.
And the record, just didn'treally go anywhere.
And, you know, the industry, itwas sort of like a flop.
Also, we changed the name to DanMangan and blacksmith, and that
was like a whole new thing.
And now we're marketing a brandnew project instead of like
continuing.
It was, it was just complicatedin many ways.

(35:08):
And.
There was a couple of reallytough tours, Canadian tour,
European tour, that was reallyhard.
And then, uh, the band kind ofimploded.
And I was like, am I done?
That's it?
Oh, and then the other thing,you know, was I felt like I had
gotten increasingly moreartistically daring along the
way.
And as I did that, the sort ofcred community, the cool

(35:32):
community in Canada, which is,you know, the Polaris Music
Award had gotten less and lessinterested in me.
So, you know, short list forNice Nice Very Nice, long list
for Oh Fortune, snubbed entirelyfor Club Meds, and I took it as
like, so personally, and Irealized how deeply I needed
that affirmation at the time.

(35:52):
I was just like, I wanted sobadly to be included at the
table with the cool kids.
Um, And after that record cameout, 2015 came out early 2015,
2015 was the hardest year of my41 years on this planet in so
many ways, just gut punch aftergut punch after gut punch.
And I really wasn't sure about,you know, whether or not I had a

(36:17):
future in music.
I was sort of like this.
Maybe I'm done.
Maybe I go get a real job.
I didn't really have a lot ofsongs in the can.
Uh, I was, I needed money, youknow, I was sort of like, Hey, I
got to figure out how we'regoing to make this work.
And I did some small regionaltouring and it was just humbling
in every way.
And I was no longer what theindustry thought was cool, you

(36:37):
know, back in.
2009.
This was like pre Mumford andSons, you know, and it was just
on the rise, the sort of likefolk revival thing.
And then Mumford and Sons hadsort of, you know, kind of taken
that folk thing and made itarena rock.
And it was no longer a grittyunderground kind of thing
anymore.
And now we'd moved on to Lordeand now we'd moved on to, you

(36:59):
know, kind of like A lot ofyoung female synth, synth pop
and like the gravelly voice, youknow, older white guy with kids
was no longer like what wascool.
And rightfully so.
I mean, white guys with guitarshave been getting the benefit of
the doubt for

Yeah,

Dan (37:16):
years.
So maybe it's, maybe it's okay.
Like maybe it was time for thependulum to swing another way,
but it was

things

Dan (37:23):
deeply troubled.

question.
Let me ask you this one, Dan.
okay, you said two things thatwere of point of interest to me.
Like, so you've been sittingthere, you said you're sitting
at home asking these questions.
firstborn is.
within their first year or abouta year old by that point.

Dan (37:41):
Uh, by then, by then they're like two, two and a
half.

Okay.
So, I mean, I fully understandwhat that looks like.
I'm wondering what were thethings that you were really
starting to put your anchor on?
I, I think two things, likeyou're like, what, you're like
31, 32 by that point.
Um, that's like a pretty bigshift.

(38:09):
you have a young child.
You're, you're not a go to theoffice person.
So you're at home when you'renot out doing all these things.
trying to figure out what thatlike, which is extremely
challenging, asking some prettydeep questions about, like,
where are the things you, maybeI'm making an assumption.
You can clarify where am I goingto hang my hat

Dan (38:30):
Mm hmm.

validation of the cool kids or what did I get in?
To this perhaps in the firstplace for,

Dan (38:37):
Mm hmm.

and maybe, you know, that tension between
asking your or having the luxuryto ask yourself, like, what kind
of art do I want to make versushow do I to earn a living for my
family that I now have?
I'm wondering what that waslike.
What were you going through?

Dan (38:56):
And like every Rick Rubin type will be like, just make
what pleases you as the artist.
That's the thing.
And you know, like, you know,don't worry about trying to
reverse engineer something forthe radio.
The, you know, the radio won'tcare.
Just do what you do and it willfind the right people.
And I'd sort of been doing that.
And my, the signal I was gettingfrom the industry was the more
you trust your gut and go downyour own artistic.

(39:17):
rabbit holes, the less we care.
And I was, you know, it was, itwas hard feedback to get.
but I remember my dad saying tome at one point that, uh, you
know, it's hard to believe now,but one day you'll be happy this
happened.
And at the time I was like, youknow, that means nothing to me.
Screw you.
Um, but he was completely rightbecause I did have to really go

(39:37):
and ask myself those hardquestions.
Why am I doing this?
Am I doing this?
So pitchfork will write aboutit.
Am I doing this?
Cause I want to be famous.
Um, am I doing this because it'slike of all the jobs you could
have, it's the coolest, youknow, um, and coming out of that
and realizing like, what is thething that actually gets me off,
you know, and realizing it'sconnection.

(40:00):
It's like being in a room fullof people and feeling like we're
all in the same wavelength andwe're all tapping into something
real.
Something meaningful and youknow, like, you know, if you're
at a party and you're floatingaround, you're kind of larger
than life and you're kind ofplaying it up or whatever, like,
you know, if you're beingyourself internally, there's
like a switch that you can turnon and off of like when, you

(40:21):
know, you're being your earnest,genuine self and when you're not
and um, and I just always wantedto be on the genuine side of
that.
I just like, I wanted music to,to be truthful.
I wanted, I wanted music thatwould unlock certain hidden
truths about me.
Yeah.
And put that out on the tableand say, this is how I feel.

(40:41):
And then when, when people, whenany of us, when we see something
real on the table, we all go,Oh, okay, thank God, something
real.
And then we, you know, weappreciate it.
And in the articulation of sortof sending that signal and
receiving those signals, itmakes us all feel less alone.
And feeling less alone makes usfeel like the pros of cons are,

(41:01):
you know, outweigh the pros ofliving outweigh the cons and
that we're here You know, forthis fleeting moment, um, maybe
we can make this fleeting momenteasier and more beautiful for
each other.
And, and kind of coming aroundto that and being like, well,
that is what I want.
That's the feeling.
Cause the truth is anytime I didget, uh, you know, feedback from

(41:25):
the world that was like, Dan,you're cool.
First of all, I didn't believeit.
I was like, well, no, clearly,if you think that you're not
cool and then the second thingis that if you do start
believing it, then you're livingup to that.
Like, then you're trying to,like, continue to be cool or
like change.
It's like, it's like you'reacting like there's a camera on
you.
So you're like, kind ofpretending to be yourself or

(41:45):
something like that.
Um, yeah.
And the worst thing that couldhappen is that if you feel like
you're not being genuine toyourself, if you're sort of
playing a character or you're,you're sort of faking it, and
let's say you're on stage andlet's say it's working, let's
say there's an arena full ofpeople that paid to come see you
and you're on stage and you feellike 20 percent of a fraud.

(42:07):
Like you're kind of pretendingand the feedback you're getting
from the people in front of you.
It's like yay And they'rescreaming and they're so excited
You're gonna look at them andyou're like you guys are idiots
because you believe me and Iknow that I'm not being real
right now That's the worst casescenario is that you're not
genuine.
You're not honest and it worksBecause then you're getting the

(42:30):
feedback from the world thatlike, oh, yeah, I keep doing
this thing that makes you feellike shit And so, you know, I
think that just leaning intogratitude, leaning into, you
know, how special it can be tobe in the moment in a dimly lit
room with other human beings,and doesn't really matter if
it's 20 of them or 20, 000, youknow, like I've had gigs.

(42:53):
To 35, 000 people that were lessfulfilling than gigs to 200
people, you know, in a spiritualkind of way.
And so, um, you know, what arewe in this for?
What are, what are we after?
And, um, kind of honing in onthat, because the thing is,
like, you put all this stuffinto the zeitgeist, you write

(43:14):
these songs.
I know when I've written a greatsong.
And.
They don't, they're not alwaysthe ones that get picked up by
the world.
And so if you're like accountingyour, or if you're like sort of
certifying your own self worthby what the feedback coming back
to you is, you're going to bescrewed because there's going to

(43:35):
be this like cognitivedissonance.
Whereas if you can actually, youknow, Wes from the, uh, from the
Lumineers, he put it this way.
He said, you have to keep yourown score.
You know, you have to like, youknow, Keep your own score, know
when you are on track, know whenyou're doing the right thing,
and, because you can't controlthe other stuff, you can control
you, but you can't control thezeitgeist stuff, like whether

(43:58):
you get lucky again, like, youknow, that nice, nice, very nice
era, I got really lucky, and,um, it's not that the music Was
bad or that I wasn't didn't notdeserving or something like
that.
It's just that you have to bedeserving.
The music has to be good and youhave to get lucky.
There's so many bands that areamazing.
So many, honestly, so manypeople I see who are way like

(44:20):
more technically talented than Iam, like people who can sing way
better than I can.
People who can play aninstrument so much better than I
can, but, but they can't be meand I can't be them.
So what is me?
Like, what's the thing that I'mgood at and, and what, you know,
when I get feedback fromsomebody after a show and
they're in tears and they giveme a big hug and they tell me a

(44:42):
story about what a song meant,you know, at a certain time in
their life that was really hard.
And that's like, that is so.
Life juice, you know, that islike soul affirming in a
particular kind of way that isso much more meaningful than
like pitchfork gave you a goodreview.
You know,

this is exactly one of the strings that I've
been looking at, uh, with you.
And when I, when I think aboutall of this, The authenticity
part.
Well, let me just put it thisway.
Like the way you were justtalking about that and finding
out who you are and seeing howpeople respond.
I took a look.
Well, there's 2 things thatinterest me.

(45:22):
1 thread that goes through whenI look at your career.
There was this 1 part that Icalled niche.
Which I think a lot of artiststhink they have to create some
version of a niche, right, toget noticed, to stand out,
whatever it is.
So a thing that you were knownfor, and you've already
identified it, was robots.
And you were known for a longtime past that album's cycle for

(45:46):
it being the anchor to your liveshow, for the antics.
I've been in a half dozen DanMangan shows in the early days
where you stood on tables andyou stepped on people's glasses
and, and But you had everybodyDialed in exactly where you were
and I think as an artist whatyou're saying like there is

(46:08):
nothing more sacred or morehundred percent than feeling
like everybody in this room isexactly where I am.
It's the same feeling when youleave the movie.
With a whole room of strangersand you're like, we're all
feeling the exact same thing.
It's the same thing.
you had a post like three orfour days ago, sort of comparing

(46:29):
your upbringing in church, the,the reasons you left it, but
then the things that you youloved that somehow, again, tie a
string to now you still seek andyou still, Have found a place
where you've realized thatthere's some truth in some of
these experiences with people incommunities, getting rid of the

(46:52):
bullshit to be able to make ithappen.
guess the string that I also seeis like, you chose to stop
playing robots for a while andthen, then you had a moment
where I read the article whereyou had talked about the
tragically hip final shows kindof gave you this illumination

(47:13):
of, uh, they didn't play mysongs.
And then you as an artist werelike, I should probably be
playing robots, but, but beyondthat, the thread I see is you,
you brought the, uh, so much foreveryone this new anchor to your
show, which became a sing along,which really is a callback to

(47:37):
what really started your niche.
And I feel like so much foreveryone is.
So much more powerful, so muchmore engaging for people.
I still get shivers sometimes ifI see the reels of it.
I'm wondering what was that partof you deciding to bring that
back in the way that you broughtit back into,

Dan (47:59):
Yeah,

and connecting with people?

Dan (48:02):
I think when I, when I was really just starting out like an
East Van playing open mics andstuff there, there was a big,
um, Like slam poetry scene, andthere was a bunch of bands
around town and like, kind oflike blurring music and poetry.

came out of?

Dan (48:20):
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
He, yeah, Shane Koyczan and theFugitives, and that's where I
met my friend Mark Berube, andum, antics was a big thing.
Like they would do these crazythings at their shows, this kind
of, it would turn it into a bitof a circus, a carnival, where
they would be like kind ofcommanding the room in a really
powerful way.
And I remember kind of watchingthat and being like, wow, it's

(48:42):
interesting.
Like, they're really blurringthe lines of the stage and the
pedestal and sort of like.
You know, causing a ruckus.
And so robots had this big singalong thing.
And there's almost nothing moreembarrassing than trying to get
people to sing along tosomething and it doesn't go very
well, you know, and they kind ofget like wisps of it, but it's

(49:02):
not really working.
And so I learned.
That if I was going to getpeople on board, I had to be a
thousand percent committed tomaking it happen.
And sometimes that meantstepping on tables, sometimes
that meant walking along thebar, getting them singing, crowd
surfing, you know, reachingdown, grabbing a pint glass and
pouring myself a beer in frontof the bartenders who were like,

(49:23):
Oh, what are you doing?
You know, and like slamming abeer and then.
Crowdsurfing back to the stageor whatever, like I was willing
to be so larger than life.
And in those formative years, itwas very authentic.
I was like, let's go, let's doit.
Let's live.
And then what happened is thatthat became such an expected

(49:45):
part of the show that it hadsort of outlived its initial.
Excitement or surprise andpeople started to expect it and
if I was feeling kind of lowwith that day or whatever, it
was hard to muster that kind ofenergy and then you start to
feel like a monkey on an organgrinder or something, you know,
you're sort of just like, oh,I'm just going to go through the
motions and and that disconnectearlier.

(50:08):
I was talking about thatcognitive dissonance that
disconnect from between theauthentic self and the sort of
like, you know what you'reputting out there that really
hurt me and I was like, I don'twant to do that anymore.
And so I pulled out and Istopped playing that song and
then I realized, you know,somebody paid whatever, between
20 and 50 bucks to come to theshow, plus babysitter, maybe

(50:29):
plus dinner, plus parking, andthey have been looking forward
to the show for months.
Maybe they only know two songs.
And I'm not going to play one ofthose two songs that they know

Hmm.

Dan (50:44):
probably not going to come to another show after that

heh.

Dan (50:48):
realizing that like, and I remember going to see like Ryan
Adams and he didn't play any ofthe songs I wanted him to play
went and saw Bon Iver years ago,you know, in his more recent,
uh, incarnations, um, and heplayed skinny love and people
freaked out and I was thinkinglike, yeah, like, yeah, He would
get slaughtered if he didn'tplay Skinny Love, you know?

(51:09):
Um, and I, I just, you know, andGrant Lawrence says it all the
time, play the hits, play thehits, play the hits.
Um, and kind of getting overmyself and realizing as a
spectator, I wanted the bands toplay the hits too.
Like, you know, you go see RonSexsmith and he doesn't play
Secret Heart.
You know, like, What the hell,Ron?
Um, so I, I, I kind of got overmyself a little bit and, um, and

(51:35):
found a way to bring it backthat still felt authentic.
And that was important.
And it happened by accident.
We were at the Peterborough FolkFestival and the band before us
went long.
And so our set got squeezed andthey were like, sorry, city
ordinance, we have to turn offthe PA and we didn't get to play
any, you know, our set got shortand it was just me and Gord
Grdina.
We played a duo set.

(51:56):
And I was like, screw it.
Let's just go out in the fieldand we'll, we'll get everyone to
surround us and we'll just do acampfire thing.
And I, that was the first nightwe played, I played robots in a
couple of years.
And I just, cause I was like, ifthere was ever a time to play
robots, it's now.
And I'm looking around andpeople have their kids up on
their shoulders and everyone issinging as loud as they can.

(52:16):
And I'm looking around at allthese glowing, smiling faces and
the PAs off.
And we kept the gig going in themiddle of the field.
I'm like, there it is.
It's back like that was thefeeling of robots in the initial
days was like capturing a thingthat was like, Oh, my God, the
community, it's all happening.
And it was like, this is how todo it.
So ever since then, you know,I've put robots back in the set,

(52:38):
but I do it at the end and we doa campfire style.
And I because the thing is,like, in the canon of my like,
in my body of work, I would rankrobots as like the 33rd best
song I've written.
Like it is not, it doesn't evencontend for me.
I think I've written so manysongs better than that song, but

(52:59):
it still means a lot to a lot ofpeople and I need to acknowledge
that.
And I need to embrace that.
And so playing it In the round,in the crowd, getting everyone
to sing the whole song.
It sort of gives it back.
It says like, this almostdoesn't belong to me anymore.
It belongs to you guys.
It belongs to all of us.
Um, and that's a way to do it.

(53:21):
That's it feels good.
Did it tonight?
I did it, you know, two nightsago and it was awesome.

Yeah.
You wonder if we like somehow,well, you seem to run into
celebrities all the time.
So maybe you, not me, but maybeyou would run into Neil Diamond
and be like, Do you like, issweet Caroline number 33 for
you?
Or is

Dan (53:41):
Yeah.
Right.
I wonder.
Yeah.

Is it number one or two?
Would you sing a karaoke?
Would you but

Dan (53:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, that's a, that's a goodquestion.
That is a good question.
I don't know.

what do you think at this stage?
What is it that people connectwith you like around?
There's I mean, there's twothings I notice about your songs
over the history.
I feel like I can almost divideit.
In half, it feels like you havea sharp wit and social

(54:12):
commentary, and I feel like youhave this incredibly vulnerable.
I just wrote this about myselfabout what happened yesterday,
kind of, um, delivery and, and Ithink combined with how you've
changed your vocal presentationsomewhere halfway through your

(54:34):
career, where you kind of, andyou can tell me whether it's
definitely a You know, a correctassumption that it's the kind of
the guttural baritone, is justtoo hard on the voice to have a
20 plus year career.
And all of a

Dan (54:48):
Yeah.

comes out and you're in, you know, the, the
falsettos and the, and the, andthe softer whispers of delivery,
I'm sure that's part of it, butit also seemed to go with sort
of the song and the songs

Dan (55:02):
Mm hmm.

a new desire and connect people.

Dan (55:06):
Yeah.
I, I mean, part of it is justhealth.
Like I, I, I ruined myself andit, part of it was just
screaming my guts out and partof it was like three Americanos
a day and part of, you know, Ijust like ended up with these
really chronic, uh, uh, refluxissues that were really
affecting my singing voice andalso, um, TMJ like jaw issues

(55:28):
and stuff.
And so re approaching how I wassinging, it was also timed in.
With working with Drew Brown.
And I think that, you know, he'sgot great taste and he said
right out of the gates, he'slike, I don't want the guttural
stuff.
Give me, give me the soft stuff.
Um, and so I, like almost toplease him, I kind of was like,

(55:49):
okay, and then working with, youknow, vocal coaches and speech
pathologists and stuff to figureout my reflex stuff and then re
approaching singing with new,you know, technical, um, uh,
intention, has allowed me tosing much more quietly and
actually get way more resonanceand way more tone out of my
voice by doing it more quietlyrather than just lacking in tone

(56:12):
and trying to make up for itwith volume.
but I do think that there's alsoa tenderness, you know, um, kind
of coming to terms and gettingreally okay with writing about
love.
Not a lot of love in my earlywork, you know, um, there's
stuff to touch uponrelationships and stuff, but
there's not a lot of devotionsongs in my early work.
If you go through it, like thosefirst few records, there's

(56:32):
almost none that you would calllike a devotional love song.
Um, I feel like as I get older,I mean, in, in the song peaks
and valleys, there's, there'sthe line, see, I just get softer
and the world gets colder.
and I feel like.
Funnily, two things.
I feel in some ways so muchsofter, like so much more ready

(56:52):
to cry at like, you know, a filmor like, uh, the thought of
like, you know, something badhappening to a child or
whatever, like, like I'm justway more tender and way more
okay with being tender and thatokayness with the tenderness.
is very strong.
Like these, like real strength,actual strength, not like alpha

(57:17):
bro macho bullshit.

Yeah,

Dan (57:19):
strength comes with being okay with yourself in a tender,
gentle, vulnerable state

yeah.

Dan (57:26):
being confident in that vulnerability.
That is real strength.
That's the real alpha shit.
And I'm so like, like thezeitgeist alpha manosphere or
whatever they're calling it,like is so cringy and it is so
clearly like all thesedouchebags.
Who are overcompensating so hardfor an actual lack of a real

(57:51):
backbone of a real stridentstrength within themselves and
are trying to make up for itwith posturing, um, is is so I
mean, it's so pathetic.
It makes men look so deeplypathetic, um, and laughable.
Which is sort of the inverse ofthe whole thing.
But anyways, what I'm getting atis that I feel stronger now as a

(58:14):
more vulnerable person.
And I feel, I feel like more, Ihave more grit in me than ever
in that.
And that goes hand in hand withmy willingness to be tender, to
write about love, to talk aboutlove, and to talk about being a
dad.
You know that actually coming toterms with that was I've had,
you know, peaks and valleys.
I've had two careers.
I had like Dan 1.

(58:35):
0, which was like what we'vebeen talking about.
2.
0 was post club meds, you know,kind of rounding the track and
feeling like, okay, what am Inow who I'm no longer this 20
something troubador in thecorner of the bar, you know,
pummeling people intosubmission.
Um, yeah.
So what am I, if I'm mowing thelawn and emptying the dishwasher

(58:55):
and I'm a dad and I have to, butI'm still want to be a musician

Yeah,

Dan (58:59):
and sort of though.
So 2.
0 is sort of like post kids,Dan, and you know, I'm.
Um, a part of that had to dowith like figuring out how to
make it work, like as a businessand figure feet trying to like
create as, as direct arelationship as I can with the

(59:20):
people who might care about mymusic.
So through email or through liketext message subscribers, I'm
like, I am deeply in touch withmy fan base and I don't even
relate that word like supporterbase, I don't know, whatever
listeners, you know, I am, I'mvery much.
accessible.
You want to get, you want toreach out to me, you want to get
to me, like, it's not hard todo.

(59:41):
And, um, and I do my best to getback to people.
And so part of it is like, sortof like shoring up that support
and trying to make somethingstable and long term out of it.
And the other thing is likeartistically digging in to that
tenderness and digging into whatis real.
And the cool thing is, you know,every one of my records has

(01:00:03):
probably had a handful of songsthat were really real.
You know, saying something real,saying something that I can get
behind and say that's ameaningful thing that is saying
a truth about existing.
And then there's like some othersongs that were pretty good, but
like, you know.
Not as, not as real.
The cool thing is that after,um, you know, I just made my
seventh record.
It's not out yet, but we'remixing it.

(01:00:25):
I have enough songs that I cando a full two hour set and feel
like I mean every word and thatthat's taken 20 years of work to
harvest.
Like that's a, that's a longgame kind of thing.
And I get jealous all the timeof young upstart bands exploding
online.
They know how to do the viralitything.

(01:00:47):
They know how to be cool in thefront of a camera.
They know how to get peopleexcited.
They're exploding.
And I'm like, Oh my God, I'm sojealous of these young people.
And they know how to use theinternet.
And I have to come back aroundand say, well, let's see how
they're doing on their sixthrecord.
Let's see how they're doing ontheir seventh record.
Um, and longevity.

(01:01:08):
Is, is, um, is something that I,you know, I'm very proud of the
fact that I can, I'm making mybest music now, like I'm, I, you
know, the, this newest record,seventh record is so exciting to
me.
It is, it blows everything I'veever done out of the water.
In my opinion.
I like, it's not evencomparable.

(01:01:28):
I feel like that we have reachedsomething, touched something
with this record that I'vealways been trying to do.
And the fact that that'shappening at 41 is really
exciting to me.
Now, then I feel terrified forwhat about after this?
Cause I don't, I don't thinkI'll ever match this record
again.
That's how I honestly, how Ifeel right now is I feel I'm up

(01:01:50):
at night thinking I've just doneit.
I did the thing I've alwayswanted to do.
This is the record I maderumors, you know, like what do
we do next?
I'm fucked.
Like, how am I ever going tolive up to this?
And it's not even out yet.
Um, Uh, Uh, Uh, Uh,

Glen Erickson (01:02:20):
it's a.
frightening place to be.
I really appreciate the partabout vulnerability.
I know that for me, more or lesscame out.
all this stuff aside of beinglike, who's Dan Mangan going to
be now, um, at that stage ofyour career or whatever, as a

(01:02:41):
fan, as, a dad who had gonethrough the time of like, yeah,
all of a sudden I could cry at adrop of a hat.
Um, uh, I cared aboutvulnerability.
I cared about things and itwasn't a world that seemed like
was allowing men.
To show that they cared aboutthings.

(01:03:02):
So, I mean, I think cold in thesummer to me sort of captured
those two sides of you that youcould deliver a verse with, you
know, your literary wit of, uh,cul-de-saccharine top up the
margarine, like, but the sameline to say, you know, I don't
know where the gig is.
I don't know if I'm cool, know,but I still get lost

Dan (01:03:23):
Uh,

it.
got more to lose, like that'sthe delivery of that is so
intensely vulnerable.

Dan (01:03:31):
That was the crux of that.
That whole record, that was the,I don't, I don't, I don't know
where the gig is.
I don't know if it's cool, but Istill get lost in it and I got
more to lose.
Those don't like don't that youcould have like hung that entire
record on those four lines inthat song.
Because that truly was thethesis statement of like, I
don't know what the fuck's goingon.
Yeah.
I no longer know who I am orwhat's cool, but I know that it

(01:03:54):
still means something to me.
And now that I have these kids,I have more to lose.
You know?

So here's the last thread, because what that
what that looks like to me issaying, well, I asked you the
question, what do you thinkpeople connect with you around
for so long?
Because you're probably likeultra aware of which people have
been with you from thebeginning, which people have
come through, whether they're 2.

(01:04:18):
0 Dan or 1.
0 Dan

Dan (01:04:20):
Mhm.
Mhm.

thoughts are, because, you know, art versus
life is You deciding to putyourself on display as a real
person, even the sidebar thatstatement, you allowing yourself
to put yourself out there as areal person, not just a
performer or these differentversions that we see in this
industry.

(01:04:54):
I mean, if I had a half an hour,I would just want to go through
your videos with you and talk

Dan (01:04:59):
Mhm.

evolution, you know, because it's.
easy for me to jump at like, uh,call me up high and allowing
yourself to dance in your carlike a crazy man.
I mean, you

Dan (01:05:12):
Yeah.

actually, you can answer a curiosity for me really
quick.
Like

Dan (01:05:16):
Mm hmm.

in the car when it's not moving during the
credits and it was yourinfluence, the Muppets, the way
you threw your body around

Dan (01:05:25):
It's, it's, it's a little, yeah, yeah.
It's a little bit like animal onthe drum kit or whatever.
Yeah.

Muppety, but you,

Dan (01:05:31):
Yeah.

yourself.
The vulnerability to look silly

Dan (01:05:36):
You just have to commit.
I mean, you know, and it's funnybecause I've had people say
like, I don't mean this to belike self Patty on the back, but
like I've had people say, it'simpressive that you're willing
to be yourself on stage.
It's impressive that you'rewilling to be, you know, an
earnest version of And to me.

(01:05:56):
Like, it's not daring, it is acrutch, like, to me, um, it's
like a superpower, it's like,it's like, uh, it's like playing
with the cheat codes on, orsomething like that.
It's like, if I'm ever unsure ofwhat to do, oh, just be
yourself, like, like, like,like, I want to be the same
person on stage that I am offstage, and in doing so, in, in

(01:06:21):
removing any mystique, right, ittakes away, because the thing
is, like, as soon as you sort ofTry and come on stage like a
storm and sweep everyone up inthe, you know, crazy larger than
life spoken smoking mirrors andyeah, and like mystique or
something like that.
Then you're trying the entiretime to live up to that.

(01:06:43):
I would way rather come out andbe like, Hey, like let's have
the lowest expectationspossible.
Let's be a bunch of humans in aroom.
Uh, and I'm going to trustmyself enough that I'm a good
songwriter.
And I'm a decent performer.
And that I'm in when I'm in myown skin.
And when I'm feeling confidentlike myself, that is going to be

(01:07:05):
the most magnetic version ofmyself that will hopefully carry
us through the next couple ofhours.
And it's, it's weird becauseit's like hard in the long, it's
a long game thing.
Like, In the span of your life,that is the hardest thing to do
because it takes the most amountof work.
However, if you've done thatwork, it's the easiest thing to

(01:07:27):
do because it can become yourdefault setting.

Yeah.

Dan (01:07:30):
And, and so like, it's, for me, it's not like, uh, Oh God,
I, you know, I have to bemyself.
It's like, Oh, what a relief,just be myself.
Like, and as long as you trustyourself.
That you're true yourself is aninteresting person.
And that is the hardest thing.
That's where the work comes inis that every one of us needs to
trust that you are interesting.

(01:07:51):
You are a magnetic person thatyou are special in a, you know,
I don't mean it's more specialthan other people, just that you
are special when you are in yourskin and then you will be the
thing that gets you thefurthest, but you have to do the
hard work of getting there.

my wife has always told me is my superpower
and I think choosing to believeher some point along this way
rather than the other narrativesI can create for myself has been
very important.
I think I'm going to, I'll, I'lltell you this part.
Um, I sat up last night thinkingabout this a little bit, about

(01:08:28):
this string of, of you beingyourself, sort of the way that
you've risen above the peaks andthe valleys, to have this
version that I think still holdsup to the same Dan that I met in
2008 or 9.
And it sort of is beingillustrated by to me what is

(01:08:50):
interesting and how free you arein social commentary online
currently

Dan (01:08:55):
Uh, Uh, Uh.
Uh, Uh, Uh.
Mm.

that you, you know, you still get lost in it,
you know, I have more to lose.
That's a, that's a sense ofhope.
Like, that's glass half fullstatement.
So interestingly, what I did,Dan, was I messaged two friends
of mine from different parts ofCanada that are big fans of
yours.
And I said, if you can ask.

(01:09:36):
Dan, one question.
would it be?
You want to know what theiranswers were?

Dan (01:09:43):
Uh, uh,

Rachel.
No, I think you do.
Uh, shout out to Rachel whosaid, what is giving you hope as
you look forward to

Dan (01:09:52):
2025 Hmm.

And then interestingly, shout out to
Ariel.
What do you do to stay hopefulwhen everything around us is

Dan (01:10:02):
Wow, they both went to the same place.
That's so interesting.

other.
Yeah.

Dan (01:10:07):
That's so wild.
Um, well yesterday I was on theferry and I was coming back from
Tofino and somebody had sent meUh, I link to Laura Marling's
new record and I've met Laura afew times over the years.
So by Southwest and stuff, but Idon't really know her well, we

(01:10:27):
had a lot of mutual friends.
I had never listened to hermusic and I always kind of
planned to, it wasn't like adefiant thing.
I just like never did.
And so I listened to one songfrom her new record.
I was like, damn, this is reallygood.
And then I went back and I justlike, well, okay, I'm just going
to listen to this record.
And I put on that record.

Uh,

Dan (01:10:46):
it and the ferries cruising, and there's this
unbelievable sunset.
And these two kids, these twostranger kids, I don't know who
they were.

Yeah.
Yeah.

Dan (01:10:59):
that they could stand on.
Basically, it's like a little, Idon't know, like an electrical
box or something at the front ofthe We're inside and they, for
like 20 minutes.
Climbed up on the thing and thenwould slide down off of it
giggling and just one afteranother copying each other in
this state of glee.
And of course, at one point, thedad kind of comes over and he's

(01:11:21):
worried that they're making toomuch noise and that other ones
going to be annoyed.
But I've been like listening tothis incredible.
Um, and it's a new album that'ssort of like taking me on a
journey

Um,

Dan (01:11:32):
like crazy.
And there's a sunset in theback.
It was just like, it was like aperfect, Oh my God, like life is
all happening.
And this is so beautiful.
And I felt that for the dad,cause I want to be like, Hey,
no, no, no, no, no.
Like, like, don't stop this.
Like, don't interrupt what'sgoing on.
Cause that's what I would do asa dad.
I would be like, guys, you'rebeing too loud and you're
bugging all these people orsomething like that.

(01:11:52):
So I mean, like you want to saysomething cliche, like the thing
that gives me hope is thechildren, but like the thing
that gives me hope is that ifyou look for it, there are
little bits of real lifehappening all the time.
And, you know, I saw a real orrecently of like Willie Nelson
talking about worry, like he,you know, he's like, I, you

(01:12:14):
know, I believe that worryingabout things, not only will it
do you no good, it might, itmight make you sick.
Like Like the worry embeds inyour like molecular levels and
long term enough worry.
You're going to get sick.

Mm

Dan (01:12:28):
that our emotions are tied to our physical health.
And I believe that there's a,there's a million reasons to be
dread.
Right now to dread theimpending, whatever.
Um, and I'm pretty vocal onlineabout what that dread is means
to me.
however, I think for me,articulating that dread helps me

(01:12:53):
go, okay, well, I've alreadywritten about it.
I've articulated it.
I put it into a song.
What more do I need to do?
Like, you know, like it's overand it helps me.
Sit in the moment and just tryand appreciate whatever is
happening because I know what ishappening is I'm talking to you
on a podcast and the light isbeaming through this window
behind me and, you know, mywife's coming and going and, you

(01:13:16):
know, like life is happeningand, um, you know, all of these
dread things that I'm worriedthat could happen, they're not
happening now and there's thingsthat we should be doing on a
like, you know, sort of activismand, and preparing and
protection, trying to securesociety from, you know,
authoritarianism.

(01:13:37):
my mindful state comes from, youknow, trying to just find
something ridiculous to enjoy inthe moment.
And it's so cliche, just be inthe moment, be mindful, but
really like, what else is goingto get you in a state of hope?
You know, like, it's not like,it's not going to be something

(01:13:58):
exterior.
It's not going to be like, Oh,well, if I watch enough episodes
of friends, I'm going to feelhopeful.
You know, And, um, like in orderto feel hopeful, that's on you.
Like you have to choose that inthe same way that, you know,
this is a great David FosterWallace commitment speech.
I don't know if you've heard it.
I think it's like Keene'suniversity or something like
that.
Um, or Kenyon.

(01:14:18):
you know, he's like, the clicheis that a post secondary
education teaches you how tothink.
He's like, that's not reallytrue.
But hopefully what a postsecondary education could teach
you is what to think about.
And in your daily life, you getto choose what you think about.
And he goes through this wholeanalogy of like how banal Your
life will be working at a job.

(01:14:39):
You sort of don't like andgetting in a car and dealing
with traffic and going to thegrocery store.
And you know, the lineup at thegrocery store is annoying and
everything's annoying and it'sall happening to you.
He's like, or you could thinkabout the person behind the cash
register whose back hurts.
He's been there all day.
It was up all night with theirdying father or when, you know,
and he's like, it's probablethat that's not the case.

(01:15:02):
But you can decide to look atthe world with that lens and you
can decide it's like, you know,either like, it's what's that
thing about?
Like, you're not in traffic.
You are traffic

yeah.

Dan (01:15:15):
and life is not happening to you.
You can decide, you know, howyou perceive what life is around
you.
And if you want to spend yourentire life in a state of
misery, that's the easiestchoice to make.
And so.
You know, trying to decide to,and you know, there's other
things and again, I willacknowledge privilege because

(01:15:37):
some people, you know, singleparent of three doesn't have a
whole lot of time to spend onself care, but like meditation,
breath work, cold plunging, goto a sauna, go swim in the
ocean, whatever you can do.
To reset yourself and get yourlike splashed cold water on the,
you know, the face of your souldo that as often and as much as

(01:15:59):
needed.
And, and it will help you sortof like forget yourself.
Also look at something big.
This is what I say to anyone whois really struggling.
Look at the sky, look at thestars, look at the mountain,
look at the ocean, look at thatwave hitting the same rock for
the last 200 million years.
Like, you are infinitesimal, youare tiny, you are space dust,

(01:16:20):
you are floating on a speck ofspace dust that is floating
through an infinitely expandingand contracting universe that we
only barely understand.
A billion years from now, nobodywill No, nor nothing will know
or have any record of Trump orOprah or Napoleon or Gandhi or

(01:16:41):
whatever.
It's just space dust and youknow, like there is no empirical
importance to anything.
So you get to decide where youplace value.
You get to decide where you findbeauty.
And you could look at the sametree on one day and be like, Oh,
it's just a tree.
And look at the same tree thenext day and be like, Oh my God,

(01:17:02):
I can't believe like the amountof life coming, you know, how
many billions of insects is thattree housing and feeding and
how, Oh my God, I didn't noticethat it wasn't that those leaves
are flowering.
I guess it's, you know, warmerthis year or whatever.
Like you decide.
Decide to be hopeful, decide towork, uh, to, to help make
others people hopeful and decideto, you know, find the joy in

(01:17:28):
daily life.
It's like, you know, that otherquote, life is happening when
you're busy making other plans,you know, it's right now, this
is the only, I feel like thepast is as hypothetical as the
future.
Everyone's version of the pastis different.
Some people put a halo on thepast.
They want to go backwards.
That's dangerous.
We're here.
We're now we're moving forward.
What does that mean?
Who am I in this moment?
How can I also like, I say toher, sorry, I'm talking a lot.

(01:17:49):
I say to our kids, like, like,um, you know, let's say, uh, a
grandparent passes or somethinglike that.
You're not gonna remembernecessarily like much about them
except for how they made youfeel.

Yeah.

Dan (01:18:07):
And the a measure of a, I say to my kids, a measure of a
person is not their success.
It's not their status.
It's not, um, you know how muchmoney they have.
It's not blah, blah, blah, blah,blah, blah, blah.
It's not how good looking theyare.
It's not how funny they are.
It's not how smart they are,it's how they made other people
feel.
You know, and if you diedtomorrow, got hit by a bus, you

(01:18:30):
know, the people coming to yourservice of whatever, whatever
that means, the reason they wantto be there is because of how
you made them feel.
And if you make people feel goodabout themselves, if you make
people like themselves in yourpresence, then your mark on this
world is going to be a reallygood one.

Yeah, and to add one more quote, it just makes me
think, and I'll have toparaphrase, but one of my
favorites was GK Chesterton saysthat, uh, think it says
essentially, don't disagree thatwe need priests to remind us
that we're all going to die, butwe also need poets to remind us

(01:19:14):
that we're not yet dead.
And,

Dan (01:19:17):
That's great.

and I just think that, uh, cause we need to wrap
up and I just think that you'vebeen that, that poet and, and
you talking about how you makepeople feel and how important it
is.
you've always been very generousto me.
Dan, you're being generous to mein the moment, right now.

(01:19:38):
Again, you probably don'tremember, we crossed paths,
maybe 2021?
I think it was mid pandemic atKing Eddie in Calgary.
I was working on my own

Dan (01:19:57):
Okay.
cool.

(01:20:20):
Um,

is the most important to me has been, what
my two friends said that yougive people hope and, uh, I
appreciate your

Dan (01:20:35):
for joining us today, and we hope to see you again soon.

to hear about.
The new record is at 2025, early2025.
What, what

Dan (01:20:45):
Yeah.
Well, first, first,

hope for?

Dan (01:20:48):
yeah.
I mean, first of all, thank you,Glen.
Those are very kind words.
Um, yeah, I think we can look atsort of like spring ish next
year, maybe late spring,

Awesome.

Dan (01:20:57):
for a new record and probably little hints or singles
of that, you know, coming soonerthan that.
Um, I, I just want to say thatlike, I don't believe in
altruism and I, I want toacknowledge that be like, I put
a lot of energy into trying tobe a good person that makes

(01:21:17):
other people feel good aboutthemselves too.
And it's not because I'm asaint, it's because it makes me
feel good.
Like that it's a selfish act tobe kind because it makes your
life more manageable.
And, and I think that's okay.
I think people, I think part ofthe anxiety and misery in this
world is because people feellike.

(01:21:39):
Acts of kindness are selfish andtherefore it's bad or something
like that.
It's like, like acts ofkindness.
Um, you're doing it for

Yeah.

Dan (01:21:49):
likes or you're doing it for whatever.
Uh, you're, you're being kind.
So people will like you that'sgross or something like that.
And that is something to getover is that I feel good when
I'm kind to somebody the otherday.
I was, you know, just about toget on an on ramp and there's a
guy on the side of the highwaywith his bag and he's, you know,
got a sign up, he's asking forwhatever, and I was like digging

(01:22:11):
through my bag and had all thisrider food from the gig in
Tofino.
And so I had like a bunch ofapples and some, you know, bag
of chips or something like that.
And I was going to bring themhome, you know, I was like,
okay, this is great.
I got a bag of food right here.
And I got a guy over here whoneeds food.
Perfect.
Like, you know.
The universe is telling me, givethis guy the food.
And like, looked him in the eye,shook his hand.

(01:22:33):
He said, thank you.
I moved on and I felt great.
Like, like, and I'm not tellingyou this so that you think, Oh,
Dan's nice.
And he gave food to someone whoneeded food.
I'm telling you this becauseit's embarrassing how good I
felt.
After doing that, and I thinkit's okay like it's okay to get

(01:22:53):
over ourselves to be kind and tofeel good for being kind because
it just spreads, you know, likewhen someone is kind to you, it
makes you want to exactly

right?

Dan (01:23:05):
is to, you know, lean into the despair and coldness that is
so evident and obvious at everyturn.
So lean into the thing thatmakes you feel good.
Something makes you feel good.
Do it and do it.
You know, it's that Sloan songfeels good.
Do it.
Um,

Love

Dan (01:23:21):
I don't know, man.
Like I, I just, I, I, I, I'm sothankful for you to have that
perspective of me.
Uh, and I also know that like, Ihave a reputation.
People will be like, Oh, likeI'll get introduced on stage and
be like, Oh, he's the nicest guyin Canadian music or whatever.
And I just don't want people tothink that like, Okay.
I'm like some saint, like I'mnot.
I have an ego.

(01:23:42):
I'm imperfect.
I am at times a total emotionalroller coaster and at the heart
of it, like I have foundkindness to be a crutch because
it makes me feel good aboutmyself and that at the end of
the day, it's like, you know,that's the existential key that
I need to get through the day.
And, um,

But

Dan (01:24:04):
so I, that's me.
Yeah.

is not just to believe that my celebrities are
the nice guys.
I don't want to just believethat the people I follow the
nice guys or even my friendshipcircle are the nice people.
What I want to believe is thatjust all the things you've said
here are, they ask themselvesthe real true questions,

(01:24:28):
regardless of what the answeris.

Dan (01:24:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Because I know that you do that, believe you,
right?
And it doesn't matter, you'reright, what my source of
motivation for goodness was.
You made a choice, and I, and Iknow that you're making the
choice.
And I think that's

Dan (01:24:46):
Yeah.

the difference.
But I'm going to let you go.
We're going to have to cut heroff.
Uh, I apologize.
I want to thank you for yourtime and wish you all the best
with the new record and I can'twait to hear it I'll send you
some stuff after and for takingthe time out of your day.
It means the world to me.

Dan (01:25:06):
yeah.
You're a sweetheart, Glen.
My pleasure, man.
Thank you.
I wish you all the best with thepodcast and with, with your new
music and everything you'redoing all my love.

Okay.
Appreciate it.
Talk again soon, Dan.

Dan (01:25:16):
Take care.

Okay.
So this is the first one

alexi (01:25:25):
Yeah.

thing, thing we do together.
and it's episode one, Dan Manganepisode one.
Which we'll chat about becauseyou

alexi (01:25:34):
Yeah,

and you can tell me everything you think, uh,
about it or how it happened.
I got to adjust my level alittle bit.
you're studying the

alexi (01:25:43):
I am.

and

alexi (01:25:45):
It's a good time.

to done.
Yeah, it's not a

alexi (01:25:47):
Yeah.

So thank you.

alexi (01:25:49):
No, it's a good time.
It's a nice break and I got tolisten to the episode on the
train, which I got toromanticize it a little bit.
Always enjoy that.

Okay.

alexi (01:26:02):
yeah.
What part of it did you want totalk about?

Oh, I don't know.
Like it's, it was the first one.
Uh, so

alexi (01:26:10):
hmm.

I was immediately filled with regrets, of, of
things that I probably eitherdid wrong or, um, had hoped that
I could talk about and didn'tget to talking about maybe, or,
or, you know, all those typicalthings where you're like, uh, I

alexi (01:26:27):
I get it.

made a whole bunch of mistakes, but, you
know, it, with a little bit oftime, I probably feel better.
But I guess I'm curious.
So I guess what's interesting tome in the days since you've
listened to it.

alexi (01:26:41):
Mm hmm.

I've come home and I've found you listening to
some of Dan's music now.
So

alexi (01:26:48):
Often.

we talk about the, conversation with Dan, uh,
I'm wondering what your thoughtsor feelings were about Dan
Mangan's music when you wentback and listened.
And if that's tied to anymemories of you have of his
music, previous from, from myinfluence or whatever.

alexi (01:27:08):
I think your influence, I mean, I hear it.
I listen and I'm like, Oh, I've,I've heard this.
But I don't like, it was neverkind of up front in my rotation.
And it was interesting going tohim because obviously when I
find an artist not through selfdiscovery, you listen to the top
tracks, those top five thatSpotify always shows.

(01:27:30):
Um, I mean, he brings up robots.
You bring up robots a lot in thepodcast.
Cause it was just such a likeavalanche for his work to start
coming.
Flooding in, but I love the songand I'm like, I understand.
It's one of those ones youlisten and you're like, I get, I
get this.
And when he was sharing thatmemory of like, um, he started
playing again, it was a folkfest.

(01:27:51):
He sees like a dad with his kidson the shoulders and like
couples dancing and singingalong and kind of just that like
raw feeling you get from that.
I like was like, yeah, like thisis a folk fest song.
This is a song I would love.
Um, And then, yeah, studyingright now.
I hit shuffle on him.
I've been into that lately withartists and then you kind of get

(01:28:12):
the deep cuts of artists bydoing that.
And then I was like telling youLay Low, I think the song was
Lay Low.
I'm like.
You know, like that's just oneof those ones I hear and I'm
like, I could play this 20 timesin a row and I'm not getting
sick of it.
Like so good.
So, so good.
And then you mentioned it's oneof his favorites.
And I love kind of hearing thatwith artists when it's like, Oh,

(01:28:33):
here's this song I've made.
It's not my top five.
It's not my top 20, but it'slike a favorite for me for
personal reasons.
And then you just kind of getthat deep connect.

I love that.
So, I mean, I don't remember ifI've said it to you, but a part
of the reason I wanted Do thesepodcasts in this way is because,
when you hear somebody talkabout their own music or their
own experiences one way oranother, or interact with
somebody like myself as the hostor the one asking questions, or

(01:29:03):
then.
You get things that just don'tnormally come out like they're
not part of somebody's bio orpress or or any of that kind of
stuff.
So

alexi (01:29:12):
Yeah.

that way that you can point out something that he
said and something connectedwith because that's what I was.
Really

alexi (01:29:21):
Hopin for it.

even, uh, part of the product of all this would
be, I think, um, yeah, I, Iliked that a lot.
Like, um, hearing him talk aboutsome of those things or knowing
what his favorites favoriteswere.
Were there any other pieces inthe conversation that for you

(01:29:43):
not being super familiar withhim?

alexi (01:29:46):
I mean, Pre podcast, I looked him up to make sure it
was the same person I wasthinking of.
And you see like a follow count,you see, you know, monthly
listeners on Spotify.
And it's like, you know, firstimpression, you're like, oh,
he's, he's doing pretty well.
Like for an artist, like he's,you know, he's up there.

(01:30:06):
You kind of like filter it inyour brain that way.
And so even when like, he, hewas talking about like counting
merch and you said, Oh, I'msurprised, you know, people
might be surprised at yourcounting merch and just talking
about like all of the parts ofhis job.
Um, you just find thatinteresting.
Cause it's like, you know, atwhat point does an artist need

(01:30:27):
to be like successful enough, Ishould say in like air quotes.
That's like, that's not part oftheir job anymore.
Um, and you kind of forget that,like, just cause.
You see an artist as successfulor even like you start idolizing
them It doesn't mean likethey're not doing that kind of
grunt work and the brute workthat is like behind the scenes
Um, and then of course like I goand I follow him on instagram

(01:30:49):
and then just seeing his postsnow and kind of scrolling
Through his feed Knowing thatyou you see things a little bit
differently and you're like, ohlike, you know This post is just
like him and you know somebasement of some building and bc
singing but it's like oh he hadto You You know, bring his
tripod, bring his ring light, doall that work for that video and

(01:31:11):
like hope for that engagement.
And it's just like a veryinteresting lens to put on to
like view artists.
Um, interesting.

yeah, that is a part.
I think a lot of people wouldn'tmaybe always expect or wouldn't
see.
And I mean, he's kind of at aplace he identified that he.
You know, has settled into thatrole, right?
Versus maybe earlier aspirationswhen the trajectory kept and
keeps going up and up for anartist that maybe they expect at

(01:31:40):
some point that's going tochange.
And then there's a point whereyou just accept what's part of
the job, I guess really is whathe was saying.

alexi (01:31:48):
Yeah, and one of his like, I remember one thing he
said, one of his lines was like,you know, he's like, Oh, I loved
what I loved and I wanted it sobad.
Like, you know what you'rewilling to do for it.
There's not like some cap on it.
Um, and he kind of said that ina conversation separately from
when he was talking about thatkind of behind the scenes work.
Um, but I think it really likeshows that, shows that a lot.

Did he come across as the nice guy that
everybody says he is up front

alexi (01:32:16):
He did, he did, he, he just seems so wholesome and not
in like a way that it's like,Oh, like, you know, what a cute,
nice guy, but it's like, he justseems so genuine, um, cause you
know, every time you brought upa success he had, it was like
him talking about like how, howheavy he leans into gratitude.

(01:32:40):
And like, I don't know, youdon't see that as often, I
think, with artists who evencatch one little break.
Um, but it was just very, like,the first thing that I was like,
oh, this guy is like, he'sgrateful, he's humble.

Yeah.
I think genuine is a good word.
Uh, I can see why he might likerepel from the nice word over
and over again.

alexi (01:33:02):
Mm hmm.

people mean sometimes is the genuine factor
of nice, which is

alexi (01:33:08):
Yeah.

is really genuine, they probably can't
help but being Or nice orkindness or however humility as
you put comes out all thosethings are sort of part of that
pool but um Yeah, I think, uh,one of the most interesting
parts of the whole thing for me,we're at the very end, like at

(01:33:30):
the very, very end

alexi (01:33:31):
Mm hmm.

uh, I paid him, you know, a compliment because
sincerely, like he's, uh, he'sbeen such a generous, person
with me and,

alexi (01:33:42):
Yeah.

and I've seen his kindness firsthand, but, um, and
then he didn't want to accept itin a way that, That he had to
say, um, I don't believe inaltruism.
of course, I want to feel allthe good things that come with
being a nice guy.
I want to

alexi (01:33:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.

I, I just found that really interesting to me,
right?
Because I thought afterwards Iwas reflecting on it and I
thought, The fact is, like, itdoesn't matter to me also what
his motivation is being a goodguy, right?
I just get the benefit of it andI appreciate it and I don't
think, like, I get the need torepel it a little bit, you know,

(01:34:33):
with, like, I'm not, there's noaltruism, I'm not, like, there's
selfish motives in being nice

alexi (01:34:39):
That was the word that stuck out when he kept calling
it selfish.
He was like, Oh yeah, peoplecall me nice, but it's, you
know, it's selfish.
I was like, in my head, I waslike,

It's

alexi (01:34:47):
it can be selfish, but like, it, it doesn't change the
fact

That's exactly what I was thinking.
I'm like, it still doesn't, Imean, that's okay.
Like I'm not, nobody's here tojudge

alexi (01:35:00):
why you're so nice.
Yeah.
Yeah.

and think about, cause it definitely made me
think about it.
But it was a fun episode.
It was nice to talk with him.
You know, confess that I neededhim to be the first of these
episodes.
And, and so, I mean, and it'sfun.
This is the first of our postconversations.
I don't even know if I have aname for it or if there's some

(01:35:31):
clever little epilogue postsomething or another, maybe I'll
come up with it.
Maybe we'll both buy betterlighting and fix our, fix our
setup.

alexi (01:35:44):
The episode's just called We Need Some Ring Lights and
just keep it at that.

uh, but it doesn't matter.
I mean, the most important thingis doing, not waiting.
So,

alexi (01:35:53):
Yeah.

it doesn't really matter to me.
It's more fun that we just get achance to talk about, um, what
we heard and what we think afterthinking about it for a little
bit, some of the meaning inthere could be, and then, uh,

alexi (01:36:07):
Mm hmm.

So, uh, I guess the other thing I wanted to chat
real quick at the end ofepisode, um, is cause of the
timing of the year of thewrapped coming out since he
talked a bunch about listeningto Dan Spotify wrapped.
And, we had already brieflychatted about our wrapped and

(01:36:32):
the fun

alexi (01:36:33):
A little bit.

them.
So, I mean, they're the mostinteresting thing about mine.
I'll tell you what they are.
Two things.
Um, first is.
probably nobody's surprised, uh,that you're the one influencing
my Spotify wrapped more

alexi (01:36:50):
Yes.

So, that's, I think why I want to always talk
about music in our littleepilogues,

alexi (01:36:56):
Mm hmm.

I think it'd be fun because this is what we do.
This is where I find sometimesnew music, or you get surprised
that I already know some artiststhat you do.

alexi (01:37:06):
in the car.
Often in the car.

know, I know.
It's the one thing that keeps mefrom feeling irrelevant is that
I actually have some music.
So they were saying, but I had acouple of big surprises, but the
no surprises for me.
Oh, I guess

alexi (01:37:21):
Mm hmm.

sorry.
Button that other one up.
The other thing that I was goingto say was interesting is some
of the ones that are hangingaround in there.
And we've had some talk withsome people I know about what
they think is going on withSpotify and algorithms in it,
getting

alexi (01:37:37):
A little funky this year.

Simplified like

alexi (01:37:41):
Yeah.

the bands that I don't intentionally go to listen
to, but always end up in thealgorithm of

alexi (01:37:47):
Mm hmm.

Spotify inserts them every time if I just let it
play.
And as a result, some of themare like in my top 15 songs.
And there

alexi (01:37:57):
Oh yeah.

I never go and start anything with.
I never go and look them up.
They just

alexi (01:38:03):
Always end up playing.

end up there.
But so the biggest example ofthat for me is new slang.
By the shins, which is aclassic.
I think it's one of the bestindie rock songs that came from
the garden state soundtrack.
It got really

alexi (01:38:19):
Yep.

um, way back then, which people should know,
uh, since this is a musiccentric podcast that I've done
my due diligence in making sureyou got to watch important
movies that were,

alexi (01:38:34):
Mm hmm.

tied to soundtracks.
As part of your education,

alexi (01:38:40):
Yes.

so, somehow that's like number eight song on
my list.
And I literally, I'd never golooking or

alexi (01:38:46):
A surprise.

to, to play new slang, but it gets pushed into
every algorithm of everything Iplay somehow.
But the main ones are that.
Cause I go after new music somuch and

alexi (01:39:00):
Mm hmm.

listen to new music.
My top five has only one songfrom 2024 that's new and that's
the Wilderado.

alexi (01:39:12):
is, like, almost none.
None new in the top.

and six.
So like I'm big on the newWilderado record and the

alexi (01:39:20):
Yes.

is my favorite.
And that is like the number fivesong on my list.
And then I, um, starting to loveRoyal Otis more and

alexi (01:39:29):
Mm.

right so that, um, so were like number six, but
but the Dell Water Gap.
still number one and for thesong Surefire, which is an older
Wilderado, which I still thinkis maybe best banger of the last
three years.
Um,

alexi (01:39:46):
Yeah.

Bleachers Rollercoaster was at number two.
I don't know if I told you that,like they, and again, like, so
two surprises for most people toknow me.
One is, just maybe the order ofsome of those songs, but maybe
the biggest surprise for otherpeople than you.
Is that The National and War onDrugs are.

(01:40:08):
not in that conversation at all.
In

alexi (01:40:11):
Yeah.

in top 10 as far as top songs or any of that, but
so

alexi (01:40:16):
Surprising.

my surprises.
What were your surprises?

alexi (01:40:21):
I think that I discovered, I think, so much new
music this year that all my topsongs, like my little playlist
that makes me top songs 2024,the whole first half is just
songs that are on the playlistsI always fall back into.

(01:40:44):
Um, a lot of Noah Kahan went tohis concert.
He falls into a lot of my likeplaylists, especially like when
I'm like hiking or studying orwhatnot.
Um, I think the biggest surprisewas that my top song has been
the same three years in a rownow.
And I thought this year I laidoff.

(01:41:04):
Drowsy by Banes World, certifiedbanger to me, but it ended up
there.
And I.
Was shocked by that.
Um,

Do you

alexi (01:41:16):
Yeah, and then

saying

alexi (01:41:19):
it's the algorithm

every time I play something else, as soon as it's
done, I'm starting you withdrowsy, like every time type

alexi (01:41:26):
yeah, and I I was also surprised that the whole top
half is just songs that I fallback into and then you scroll
and it goes all over the mapwhich makes sense.
I listened to a lot of new musicthis summer.
So it checks out.

but what of the new music gets that high into
your list?
Like what's the highest sort ofnew music has kind of gotten its
way up to?
Cause

alexi (01:41:54):
Joe P his new album

Oh,

alexi (01:41:57):
That was made

You listen

alexi (01:41:58):
by,

Joe P.
a lot.

alexi (01:41:59):
I do, and I think his album this year was like, my top
2024, Joe P

interesting.

alexi (01:42:08):
keeps popping in there, uh, and then it's like a lot of
songs that I keep listening to.
The Sacred, like the The SacredSouls, um, they're Easier Said
Than Done.
got into that one and then I'mpretty sure online it blew up.
Um, and then it kept fallingback into, uh, I'd play a song.

(01:42:30):
It would keep going and then italways end up and I'd be like,
this isn't, uh, this isn't thevibe that's going on right now.
Um, but you know, it, it workeda lot of Bon Iver is still in
there.
Um, Briston Maroney.

you had a lot of emotions this year is

alexi (01:42:49):
I apparently was all over the map is what I'm, is what I'm
gathering, yes.
Which is interesting.
And a lot of the songs I sleepto.

well, I was going to say if there was some,
someone had invented somespecial code or app, I guess it
would be inside of that couldconnect that mood app that you
like to run, or you and yourfriends do

alexi (01:43:14):
Yes,

wrapped and then see and try to map out these
connections and maybe graph it,or I don't know.

alexi (01:43:22):
Apple now tracks my activities I log every day with
my emotions and like at whattimes.
And so it'll tell me like, whenI do a certain activity it makes
me feel a type of way.
Um.
If Spotify linked into that, Iwould have a field day with
that.
I think I'd log so much sad whenI was listening to like Bon Iver

(01:43:48):
and Suki Waterhouse and MontelFish and those artists.
And I would love to see that.

well, even.
Well, it's funny.
We were commenting on, um, NoahKahan's, you know, when the
artist gives you a special, aspecial message, um, in the
Spotify wrapped, which I gotNoah Kahan, and he's like, it's
got one song in my top 30, whichis, of course, the version with

alexi (01:44:13):
Yeah.

also one of my top ones.
So.
Which was funny because he waslike, you must have, you know,
some real problems.
I can't remember how

alexi (01:44:21):
Real trauma.

sad, real trauma.

alexi (01:44:23):
Yeah.

uh, if you don't, you need to go listen to someone
else.
So a little tongue in cheekmessage, but about being in our
feels, I guess.
But,

alexi (01:44:33):
Apparently.

yeah, so I guess the, the one way, you know, to
wrap things up, I actually, um,know if I talked to you much
about, uh, Dan actually camethrough town and played these
shows here not long after ourinterview, and he had invited me

(01:44:55):
to that show, right, that heplayed in that special theater.
Um, And, uh, it was, he playedlike for over two hours.
So when

alexi (01:45:06):
so long.
Yeah.
Yeah.

can play a two hour set and every song can mean
something like all the words canhave importance to him.
Uh, I kind of really got to seethat, although he really.
He gave people a lot of chanceto request and he, you know, I'm
sure there's a way of mappingout whether their requests meet
the songs that you really wantto play or even, even remember

(01:45:35):
if somebody tries to go deep cuton him, then maybe that's.
still has some control overthat, but yeah, I mean, yeah, he
was able to play, you know, someof the ones that still he still
delivers the ones that makepeople like really feel
something the

alexi (01:45:52):
Well, it's.

So,

alexi (01:45:53):
It's what he said though, hey.
It's like he was saying that,you know, gigs to a room of 30
people sometimes feel a lot morespecial to them than the ones to
30, 000 people.
And it, it really like dependson like kind of that intimacy of
the crowd.
Um, so I'm sure him doing thatis.
a real good way of building thatwith

well.
As an artist, he wants toconnect with people and feel I
don't want to use the termvalidation, but he definitely
needs an affirmation that heconnected in some way, and I
know after some experience,that's not always the way you
feel from the stage and themoment it might happen, talking
to people afterwards, and so youprobably learn to you.

(01:46:36):
you.
be a little more relaxed andopen minded about where that
comes from.
He's definitely in a place wherepeople are so ready and willing
excited to engage with hissongs, um, whether he maybe even
would want them to or not tosome level because,

alexi (01:46:57):
Yeah.

we were in a room where people were echoing call
and return

alexi (01:47:03):
Cute.

songs for him and he just kind of You could tell
he knows it's coming.
It's happened enough times, butdefinitely lots of good feels
and emotions in there that sortof nice, um, put a nice bow on
the conversation and then, and

alexi (01:47:20):
it's special.

and planning for this.
So, okay.
Uh, that's all episode

alexi (01:47:26):
That's all.
Yeah.

That's all

alexi (01:47:29):
Maybe next time we'll have a little ring light or two.

Maybe, but maybe next time you'll.
done exams and not feel anystress or pressure, but you seem
completely relaxed.
So thank you for taking

alexi (01:47:40):
Oh, thanks.
Always for you.
Okay, I'll see you.

Okay.
Bye.
I love you.

alexi (01:47:47):
Bye.
I love you too.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Crime Junkie

Ridiculous History

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}ep1 Dan Mangan is still nice

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Crime Junkie

Ridiculous History

All Episodes

ep1 Dan Mangan is still nice

On Purpose with Jay Shetty