February 8, 2025 • 22 mins
The American POTUS podcast is a 501c3 non-profit show, supported by listener patriots like you. To help us keep the program going, please join others around the nation by considering a tax-deductible donation. You can make your contribution and see what exciting plans we have for new podcasts and other outreach programs, at AmericanPOTUS.org. Thank You for your support and we hope you enjoy this episode.
Please consider a tax-deductible donation to support this podcast by visiting AmericanPOTUS.org. Thank You!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_ (00:00):
Welcome to American POTUS.
(00:01):
I'm your host, Alan Lowe, and Iso appreciate your joining us
for what promises to be a veryinteresting and fun episode.
My guest today is AlexandraKitty, an award winning artist,
educator, scholar, and author.
Her books cover a wonderfuldiversity of topics with titles
like A Different Track, HospitalTrains of the Second World War,
(00:22):
The Dramatic Moment of Fate, TheLife of Sherlock Holmes in the
Theater, and the book we'lldiscuss today, The sport of
presidents, the history of U.
S.
presidents and golf.
Alexandra, thanks so much forjoining us on American POTUS.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-20 (00:37):
It's nice to be on.
Thank you, Alan.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704 (00:39):
I must start with this question.
Are you a golfer?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-202 (00:43):
No, I, I'm not a very good golfer,
but I used to box.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (00:47):
Box.
Wow.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-20 (00:49):
And, but when I was a kid, the idea
that how you play a gamerevealed how you saw the world
first came to me when I playedbattleship with boys.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (00:57):
Yes.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-20 (00:57):
your faces, see their tells, figure
out their strategies and figuredout ways to turn on the pressure
to see what they would do theywere losing the game.
So I thought, Hmm, that's kindof cool.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (01:08):
Yeah.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-202 (01:09):
And then when I took up boxing, I
realized that I had a lot incommon with Sun Tzu's Art of
War.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (01:13):
Hmm.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (01:14):
my boxing trainer at the time was a
former soldier and he saw theabsolute same thing.
So We used to talk aboutstrategy when we were boxing.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (01:22):
Yeah.
alexandra-kitty_1_02- (01:22):
wondering about other
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (01:23):
hmm.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (01:24):
it led me to studying the link
between us presidents and theirgolf game because it was so
pronounced.
unlike boxing, which has amilitaristic scaffolding, golf
has a definitely baked in aleadership scaffolding.
So that's what turned me on tothe subject.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_ (01:39):
Really?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_ (01:40):
I was a good golfer.
I was, I would, I won't
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_1457 (01:45):
Nor can I.
You're reminding me, the onesport I could play well,
Alexandro, was tennis.
I played that all through highschool, and that also is a game
of strategy, and I would go intogames and kind of size up my
opponent and realize his or herstrengths, and you had to play
that strategy all along the wayto be successful.
Certainly in golf, though, Um,as I told you before we start
(02:07):
taping, it didn't matter whatstrategy I had in golf.
I was so bad.
If it could stay maybe on thefairway, the only time I ever
got a birdie and I'll share thisquick story was when I lived in
California, I hit down thefairway and it went to the left
onto the water, which was a laketo the left and it skipped on
the water like a stone and endedup on the green.
(02:27):
My only time I ever managed toget a birdie my whole golf
career, but I loved being outthere the experience was so much
fun and certainly your bookopened my eyes to not only the
connection with the presidentsBut some really interesting
connections the correlation withelectoral victory, which we'll
get to a bit later Let's go backto the first president to really
(02:50):
publicly embrace the sport ofgolf and that was William Howard
Taft a president We don't talkenough about what do you know
about the state of the game whenTaft really became enamored with
it?
Was it a big sport at the time?
I see.
Mm hmm.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-202 (03:08):
But Taft treated the sport with
absolute enthusiasm that youwouldn't have expected for that
kind of sport.
So he actually lit the matchwith how we would interpret golf
later on.
So it wasn't just something thewell to do did.
He did it with such love andenthusiasm that he put a
(03:29):
different kind of.
on the sport, which actually wasquite shocking and revolutionary
at the time, but it wasn'tobvious.
So he saw the world a littledifferently, he saw that world
differently through golf.
So I always found, I found thatreally fascinating
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (03:46):
Yeah.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (03:47):
it was seen and how he interpreted
it.
He brought it into a new level.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (03:52):
Yeah.
Well, he again, as a president,I think on many levels deserves
more study.
And, uh, this being one ofthose, I'm going to skip ahead
in time a bit.
You know, for a while I was veryfortunate to be the acting
director of the FDR Library andMuseum up in Hyde Park, New
York, and learned a lot abouthim.
And frankly, one thing I didn'tknow that much about is how much
he had loved golf throughout hislife.
(04:13):
Can you tell us a bit about thatand how he managed to stay
engaged with the sport evenafter he was struck with polio
and could no longer walk?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2 (04:22):
Well, he was an extremely good golfer
in his prime.
And it was something he did inhis youth.
So he had a very long historywith the sport.
He had a genuine love for it.
but then he couldn't physicallydo it, of course, then he
ensured that there were 500public golf courses.
that were made throughout theUnited States.
(04:42):
So what he did is what broughtgolf to the people in a way that
was never done before.
he loved the golf, but hecouldn't do it, but he gave the
gift of accessibility to others,regardless of their
socioeconomic status.
So this was beyond generous.
This was visionary.
was forward thinking, it was thefirst emotional link between the
(05:05):
president and the people Withgolf being the conduit to do
that.
this is a legacy that lasts tothis day.
And it's hard to find anequivalent anywhere else in
history.
This is It's something that isquite touching.
It's quite moving, but it's alsowas very strategic in helping
(05:27):
the middle class without poormobility and with their own
strategic thinking by allowinggolf to be more accessible to
the people.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (05:35):
When you look around at our society
today, so much still bears theimprint of FDR.
That is for sure, golf being oneof those things.
You know, Alexander, just a fewdays ago, just posted not long
ago, the episode I did withSusan Eisenhower, the
granddaughter of DwightEisenhower.
And as you note in your book,Dwight Eisenhower was the golf
(05:56):
president.
What drew him soenthusiastically to the sport?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (06:01):
He started to play golf in his mid
thirties.
So he didn't start yet.
was around 1925, 1926, when hewas a student at the U S army
command and general staffcollege in Fort Livingworth.
So he started to unwind withgolf.
That was his way to relax.
And then it became his passion.
So it started from just a way toblow off steam to something that
(06:22):
became deeply ingrained in hispersonality.
So much so that during thesecond world war, while he was
stationed in London, England, heplayed evening rounds of golf
London during the war and itfreaked out his own security
team but he loved that so muchhe didn't care and it really
(06:42):
went to his bravery and hisforesight so it wasn't just this
you know if it wasn't for asports injury he incurred during
his time at West
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_1 (06:52):
Mm-hmm
alexandra-kitty_1_02-0 (06:52):
probably would have been even a better
golfer but he
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14570 (06:55):
He showed that
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-20 (06:56):
life goes on war no war life goes on
this is what I believe in thisis how I Think about things and
I do it on the golf course outin the open.
And that's something that Idon't think a lot of people
appreciate.
You know, a lot of people wouldhave said, well, that's
foolhardy.
And no, it
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14570 (07:13):
it was,
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (07:14):
it was a very wise way of seeing
things.
And
alan-lowe_1_02-05-20 (07:19):
obviously,
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05 (07:20):
result, you know, we don't need to speak
about the end result.
So he knew what he was doing andgolf really helped him clear and
focus in a different way.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704 (07:29):
I know in talking to Susan
Eisenhower trying to figure outhow in the world this man dealt
with the stresses he was under,particularly in the buildup and
the execution of D-Day and golfplaying an important role in
that.
It's very interesting to seethat he made time to do that in
a very strategic way.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (07:48):
He just used golf in a totally
different way as something as ahaven and a refuge,
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (07:54):
Hmm.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-202 (07:55):
sit and think.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (07:58):
After Ike, we have JFK come in and as
you note, he was perhaps themost natural golfer ever in the
Oval Office.
But at first at least, hedownplayed his love of that
sport.
Why did he do that?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (08:10):
It was simply because he wanted to
differentiate himself fromEisenhower.
this was something he was like,well, he golfs too much, I'm not
going to do it, but I mean hedid.
He wouldn't let cameras in whilehe was doing it, but he was
every bit into golf.
Because he was extremely good atit.
He was extremely proficient.
(08:31):
Campaign wise, he thought, well,maybe I'll just turn down the
notch to, so the people knowthat there's a difference
between me and incumbent.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (08:39):
Hmm.
I wonder I'm trying to rememberfrom your book, I believe Nixon
played with Ike, but how was hisgame?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-202 (08:48):
His game was not very good,
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (08:50):
Yeah.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-202 (08:50):
uh, he stuck through it.
Even after his presidency,actually, it was very
interesting.
Golf became more prominent forhim after the presidency than it
was during his time as vicepresident and then president.
He sort of did it because ofEisenhower.
And then later on he really sawthat was much to it, and he
(09:12):
appreciated it more as time wenton.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14570 (09:14):
Mm hmm.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (09:15):
he
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (09:15):
know,
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_ (09:16):
a particularly good golfer, but he
was a good sport about it.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (09:19):
well, I can certainly commiserate with
him on that.
I worked for a while, I wasdirector of the George W.
Bush Library Museum down inDallas, and certainly got to
know the Bush family to somedegree.
Can you relate some of thehistory of the Bush family, a
long history of their family'sinvolvement with the sport of
golf?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05 (09:37):
History goes back decades.
The Walker Cup.
That's part of the Bush legacy.
That's the family.
And you have generations ofgolfers.
So it's not just something, uh,unlike let's say Nixon who took
it up or Eisenhower who was thefirst in the family to take it
up.
This is an illustrious history.
This is a dynasty.
(09:59):
So we're talking about a familythat's been doing it for
generations.
They're known as exceptionalgolfers and is something that's
not just deeply entrenched with,let's say, the presidential
office, this is something deeplyentrenched with a presidential
family.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (10:15):
Yeah.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-20 (10:16):
it's interesting to see how these two
things aligned perfectly.
So, it shouldn't be any surprisethat two, uh, members of the
family became U.
S.
presidents.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (10:26):
Yeah.
Well, George H.
W.
Bush, what did you find thatthe, how he approached the game
reflected his character?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (10:33):
He was a speed golfer,
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14570 (10:35):
Mm hmm.
Hm.
Mm hmm.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05- (10:39):
around him who was in charge and why.
So he was focused and he wasfast.
A lot of times when people arefocused, they tend to be slow
and methodical.
He was that, but he could do it,not with reflecting, but with
reacting.
So this was very much somethingunique to his golf game.
So no other president can saythis.
(11:01):
That golf was, uh, a focus andhe didn't waste.
So there were a lot of youngergolfers around.
Uh, they couldn't keep up withhim.
And that was one thing that manypeople who golfed with him
noted.
I can't keep up with him.
He's really fast.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704 (11:18):
I know George W.
Bush loved golf too but younoted during much of his
administration he didn't play.
Why was that?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2 (11:24):
well, it was a sacrifice he was
willing to make, to show that hewas going to devote all of his
focus and attention during thecountry.
In crisis, you know, during theWar and he didn't want to
distract attention away fromhard news.
He was afraid that if he goesout golfing that the press was
going to, focus on his golfing,get on him for golfing without
(11:46):
the appreciation that nopresident just golfs.
He's golfing with a purpose.
He's going to be with histrusted advisors, or he's going
to have access to certain peopleor different world leaders.
Out on the green, but he figuredthis is the best way for him to
express that he's taking thisseriously, given his family's
(12:07):
history and absolute, uh, wellchronicled love for the game.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14570 (12:11):
So certainly in the wake of 9 11
and the wars in Afghanistan andIraq, yes, taking that, putting
it in the back seat for a while,but then still retaining that
love.
How did his game compare to hisdad's?
I know, uh,
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-202 (12:30):
you know, George 41's legacy than
George 43.
But they were both extremelygood golfers.
So it's not like I'm saying thatone a bad golfer.
Both were extremely good, butjust.
Father could do it and he coulddo it all faster.
So it was a really high bar toreach.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (12:48):
once I was at the Bush house when I
was director of the library andI asked, you know, that little
putting green there and I.
I said to Mrs.
Bush, does he use that veryoften?
She goes, are you kidding me?
Every day.
I said, he was enjoying the postpresidency, that's for sure.
Now, we mentioned this at thevery beginning, just in passing,
but you note some interestingcorrelation between presidents
(13:10):
who golf and their success inelections.
Why would there be such acorrelation?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-20 (13:15):
It's an interesting thing and I was
really when I was looking at it.
In modern times, the onlypresident who didn't golf, who
won over a golfing president,was Jimmy Carter over Gerald
Ford.
And this was very interesting.
So I started looking into whythis was.
And there were a number offactors.
First, it's an image oftradition.
(13:37):
have an imagery to guide us andgolf isn't frenetic.
So you can follow somebody doingit.
So we can sit back and watch apresident being active without
the theatrics.
It's very much a methodicalgame.
It's a game of strategy and it'san image of having control.
So first of all that is apowerful message.
(13:58):
It's something.
can relate to it, somethingseemingly mundane, but yet
there's a lot that you canunpackage just by watching a
president play golf.
You can see who he's playinggolf with, under what
circumstances, and you canextrapolate information.
It's subtle information, but itgives you a feel of the person
running.
(14:19):
Secondly, golf does train yourbrain to think in terms of
strategy that aligns with thatjob.
And few games you can say alignso perfectly with a job as golf.
So you're out in the open.
You have to see the big picture,but you have little, you know,
steps you have to go increment.
To see the big picture, so golfis a way of your brain to think
(14:42):
in terms of leadership, and italso gives the president an
opportunity to network outsidethe Oval Office and campaign
trail without the meddling ofhandlers.
So a lot of handlers can say,no, he can't see you.
When it's leisure time thepresident has, or the candidate
has more say in who they'regoing to see who they're going
to speak to.
And it extends the office beyondthe campaign trail or the Oval
(15:05):
Office to include the golfcourse.
I
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (15:08):
Such an interesting observation,
Alexander, really, that, I wastaken by all your book, but that
really struck me, thatcorrelation.
And good explanation of why thatcould be, is absolutely the
case.
Now, let's take a step back andlook at the sport itself.
The presidents who played it,and have played it a lot, some
played it quite well.
How have they affected the imageand the development of the game?
(15:32):
Yeah.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05- (15:35):
really interesting when I was doing
research for the book, that eachpresident brought something
different to the table.
So it's not like a check mark,okay, I can check this off, play
golf, check.
There's more to it.
What is your contribution tothis storied legacy?
So each president who took offgolf added something to the
mythos.
So Taft wasn't signaling that hearrived when he played golf.
(15:58):
He had a genuine love for thegame.
broke through with a novelinterpretation of how we see
this, what was once saw as astodgy sport.
Now, LBJ on the other hand, hewas absolutely horrible at the
game.
But it didn't stop him fromdoing it out in public.
I mean, that takes guts.
(16:19):
And he conducted business out onthe green.
He got legislation through outon the green.
So there was no off button forhim.
So he's working around theclock.
That's actually quite a bigmessage with a game that was
very different than, let's say,Taft.
Um, Barack Obama, on the otherhand, he played basketball and
(16:41):
his wife, Michelle, said youshould take up golf.
So he listened to her.
So he was open to change andsuggestion.
And he got better at the game astime went on.
He was up to taking newchallenges, but he still took up
the mantle of president on adeeper level.
So each president who playedgolf.
Added something different.
(17:01):
Now, Bill Clinton, developed astrong friendship with Canadian
Prime Minister Jean Chrétien outon the green.
So much so that when both menleft office, they still played
golf together.
So this was his way of makingalliances.
And it's really interesting tosee how he connected with world
leaders through the golf game.
So it wasn't, okay, going to ameeting here or there.
(17:23):
Let's go out, relax on thegreen, let's hammer a deal out.
Each one brought something alittle different to the table
that the ones that would comeafter could, you know, had
something to fall back on, butthen they could add something
else to the mix.
So it's a fluid sport.
terms of strategy, golf is avery fluid, evolving sport.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14570 (17:46):
So interesting, really fascinating.
I wondered, look in your crystalball for a moment.
Will golf, you think, alwaysretain that allure for
presidents?
Is there any other sport thatcan compete with it in that
regard?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (17:58):
It depends.
really tells you everything youneed to know about a president.
Strengths, weaknesses, plans,and vision.
And it's a gold standard for areason.
Go But you can also say, whatmore can the next president do
and say with the sport?
I think it's here to stay, butsomebody might, let's say
another sport, like such astennis could easily break this
(18:21):
stream, but it would have totake someone who understands
that a leader needs to beactive.
They need to move.
So it's not just sitting at anoffice.
Or walking to this or thatmeeting.
And they could technically use adifferent sport to communicate
effectively with the Americanpeople.
And actually have a genuine lovefor the game.
(18:41):
started it all because he hadorganic love for golf.
So if a candidate was savvyenough, they could actually
break the rules and start a newtradition.
But that would also, I think,alter the trajectory of the
office.
And why remove something thathas worked for generations of
presidents.
So I think it's here to stay.
It's very strategic.
(19:02):
It's very aligned with theoffice.
Might shift, somebody mightthink of something else or do
something else, but.
would, it's very hard pressed tosee it at this point.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704 (19:15):
I fully agree with you.
It's hard to think of any othersport that would fill that same
role.
You spoke of generations ofpresidents.
Playing golf, if you had somemagic and we said all the
presidents were back with us andthey're all out on the links
right now Playing a president'sonly golf tournament, man.
That would be great We could wecould raise a lot of money for a
lot of good charities doingthat.
(19:36):
Uh, uh If we were able to dothat, who do you think would
win?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_ (19:41):
I think, uh, George 41, uh,
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_1457 (19:44):
Huh
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05- (19:44):
Walker Bush.
But I think JFK would have givenhim a real run for his money.
Bush was, uh, I always alwayssay the Ramones of golf.
You know, they had concerts inunder 30 minutes.
He had his golf game in thespeed of light.
So this was so ingrained in himtoo.
JFK was also so natural in hisgolf game.
I think it would be a toss up,but I would put my money on, uh,
(20:07):
Bush.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (20:08):
Yeah, I wouldn't vote against bush.
That's for sure.
Yeah, so alexandra reallyfascinating book great
conversation What are youworking on right now?
What's next for you?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-20 (20:18):
I've been working on developing
different types of true crimeshows with different types of
storytelling.
I fell into it being a TVresearcher for a TV show, um,
true crime show called A Time toKill.
And that's something I fellinto.
And I found that I had apropensity for that because I
love research.
I love looking at little hiddennuggets and things that are
overlooked.
(20:39):
So I, that's where I'm goingright now.
But.
To me, always will be interestedin how the world around me
different people, how they reactto things, how they think.
So I'm always, you know, gamefor a new challenge, but this
book was definitely somethingthat caught my attention and it
just developed a life of itsown.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (21:00):
Well, I'm glad it did.
I really enjoyed it.
I learned a lot from it.
And thank you so much forjoining us on American POTUS.
I enjoyed it.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2 (21:08):
Thank you so much.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704 (21:10):
I got to admit, I'm kind of ready
to hit the links now, Alexander,but I don't think the links are
ready for me.
So, I want to thank everyone forlistening and for your support
of American POTUS.
I want you also, please, tocheck out American FLOTUS.
The podcast developed by apartnership of American POTUS
and the First Ladies Associationfor Research and Education, or
FLARE.
(21:30):
You can find American FLOTUSepisodes at AmericanPOTUS.
org, FLARE net.
org, or on your favorite podcastplatform.
So thanks so much for joining usand I'll see you next time on
American POTUS.
Welcome to American POTUS.
(00:01):
I'm your host, Alan Lowe, and Iso appreciate your joining us
for what promises to be a veryinteresting and fun episode.
My guest today is AlexandraKitty, an award winning artist,
educator, scholar, and author.
Her books cover a wonderfuldiversity of topics with titles
like A Different Track, HospitalTrains of the Second World War,
(00:22):
The Dramatic Moment of Fate, TheLife of Sherlock Holmes in the
Theater, and the book we'lldiscuss today, The sport of
presidents, the history of U.
S.
presidents and golf.
Alexandra, thanks so much forjoining us on American POTUS.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-20 (00:37):
It's nice to be on.
Thank you, Alan.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704 (00:39):
I must start with this question.
Are you a golfer?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-202 (00:43):
No, I, I'm not a very good golfer,
but I used to box.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (00:47):
Box.
Wow.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-20 (00:49):
And, but when I was a kid, the idea
that how you play a gamerevealed how you saw the world
first came to me when I playedbattleship with boys.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (00:57):
Yes.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-20 (00:57):
your faces, see their tells, figure
out their strategies and figuredout ways to turn on the pressure
to see what they would do theywere losing the game.
So I thought, Hmm, that's kindof cool.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (01:08):
Yeah.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-202 (01:09):
And then when I took up boxing, I
realized that I had a lot incommon with Sun Tzu's Art of
War.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (01:13):
Hmm.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (01:14):
my boxing trainer at the time was a
former soldier and he saw theabsolute same thing.
So We used to talk aboutstrategy when we were boxing.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (01:22):
Yeah.
alexandra-kitty_1_02- (01:22):
wondering about other
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (01:23):
hmm.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (01:24):
it led me to studying the link
between us presidents and theirgolf game because it was so
pronounced.
unlike boxing, which has amilitaristic scaffolding, golf
has a definitely baked in aleadership scaffolding.
So that's what turned me on tothe subject.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_ (01:39):
Really?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_ (01:40):
I was a good golfer.
I was, I would, I won't
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_1457 (01:45):
Nor can I.
You're reminding me, the onesport I could play well,
Alexandro, was tennis.
I played that all through highschool, and that also is a game
of strategy, and I would go intogames and kind of size up my
opponent and realize his or herstrengths, and you had to play
that strategy all along the wayto be successful.
Certainly in golf, though, Um,as I told you before we start
(02:07):
taping, it didn't matter whatstrategy I had in golf.
I was so bad.
If it could stay maybe on thefairway, the only time I ever
got a birdie and I'll share thisquick story was when I lived in
California, I hit down thefairway and it went to the left
onto the water, which was a laketo the left and it skipped on
the water like a stone and endedup on the green.
(02:27):
My only time I ever managed toget a birdie my whole golf
career, but I loved being outthere the experience was so much
fun and certainly your bookopened my eyes to not only the
connection with the presidentsBut some really interesting
connections the correlation withelectoral victory, which we'll
get to a bit later Let's go backto the first president to really
(02:50):
publicly embrace the sport ofgolf and that was William Howard
Taft a president We don't talkenough about what do you know
about the state of the game whenTaft really became enamored with
it?
Was it a big sport at the time?
I see.
Mm hmm.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-202 (03:08):
But Taft treated the sport with
absolute enthusiasm that youwouldn't have expected for that
kind of sport.
So he actually lit the matchwith how we would interpret golf
later on.
So it wasn't just something thewell to do did.
He did it with such love andenthusiasm that he put a
(03:29):
different kind of.
on the sport, which actually wasquite shocking and revolutionary
at the time, but it wasn'tobvious.
So he saw the world a littledifferently, he saw that world
differently through golf.
So I always found, I found thatreally fascinating
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (03:46):
Yeah.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (03:47):
it was seen and how he interpreted
it.
He brought it into a new level.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (03:52):
Yeah.
Well, he again, as a president,I think on many levels deserves
more study.
And, uh, this being one ofthose, I'm going to skip ahead
in time a bit.
You know, for a while I was veryfortunate to be the acting
director of the FDR Library andMuseum up in Hyde Park, New
York, and learned a lot abouthim.
And frankly, one thing I didn'tknow that much about is how much
he had loved golf throughout hislife.
(04:13):
Can you tell us a bit about thatand how he managed to stay
engaged with the sport evenafter he was struck with polio
and could no longer walk?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2 (04:22):
Well, he was an extremely good golfer
in his prime.
And it was something he did inhis youth.
So he had a very long historywith the sport.
He had a genuine love for it.
but then he couldn't physicallydo it, of course, then he
ensured that there were 500public golf courses.
that were made throughout theUnited States.
(04:42):
So what he did is what broughtgolf to the people in a way that
was never done before.
he loved the golf, but hecouldn't do it, but he gave the
gift of accessibility to others,regardless of their
socioeconomic status.
So this was beyond generous.
This was visionary.
was forward thinking, it was thefirst emotional link between the
(05:05):
president and the people Withgolf being the conduit to do
that.
this is a legacy that lasts tothis day.
And it's hard to find anequivalent anywhere else in
history.
This is It's something that isquite touching.
It's quite moving, but it's alsowas very strategic in helping
(05:27):
the middle class without poormobility and with their own
strategic thinking by allowinggolf to be more accessible to
the people.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (05:35):
When you look around at our society
today, so much still bears theimprint of FDR.
That is for sure, golf being oneof those things.
You know, Alexander, just a fewdays ago, just posted not long
ago, the episode I did withSusan Eisenhower, the
granddaughter of DwightEisenhower.
And as you note in your book,Dwight Eisenhower was the golf
(05:56):
president.
What drew him soenthusiastically to the sport?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (06:01):
He started to play golf in his mid
thirties.
So he didn't start yet.
was around 1925, 1926, when hewas a student at the U S army
command and general staffcollege in Fort Livingworth.
So he started to unwind withgolf.
That was his way to relax.
And then it became his passion.
So it started from just a way toblow off steam to something that
(06:22):
became deeply ingrained in hispersonality.
So much so that during thesecond world war, while he was
stationed in London, England, heplayed evening rounds of golf
London during the war and itfreaked out his own security
team but he loved that so muchhe didn't care and it really
(06:42):
went to his bravery and hisforesight so it wasn't just this
you know if it wasn't for asports injury he incurred during
his time at West
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_1 (06:52):
Mm-hmm
alexandra-kitty_1_02-0 (06:52):
probably would have been even a better
golfer but he
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14570 (06:55):
He showed that
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-20 (06:56):
life goes on war no war life goes on
this is what I believe in thisis how I Think about things and
I do it on the golf course outin the open.
And that's something that Idon't think a lot of people
appreciate.
You know, a lot of people wouldhave said, well, that's
foolhardy.
And no, it
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14570 (07:13):
it was,
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (07:14):
it was a very wise way of seeing
things.
And
alan-lowe_1_02-05-20 (07:19):
obviously,
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05 (07:20):
result, you know, we don't need to speak
about the end result.
So he knew what he was doing andgolf really helped him clear and
focus in a different way.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704 (07:29):
I know in talking to Susan
Eisenhower trying to figure outhow in the world this man dealt
with the stresses he was under,particularly in the buildup and
the execution of D-Day and golfplaying an important role in
that.
It's very interesting to seethat he made time to do that in
a very strategic way.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (07:48):
He just used golf in a totally
different way as something as ahaven and a refuge,
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (07:54):
Hmm.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-202 (07:55):
sit and think.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (07:58):
After Ike, we have JFK come in and as
you note, he was perhaps themost natural golfer ever in the
Oval Office.
But at first at least, hedownplayed his love of that
sport.
Why did he do that?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (08:10):
It was simply because he wanted to
differentiate himself fromEisenhower.
this was something he was like,well, he golfs too much, I'm not
going to do it, but I mean hedid.
He wouldn't let cameras in whilehe was doing it, but he was
every bit into golf.
Because he was extremely good atit.
He was extremely proficient.
(08:31):
Campaign wise, he thought, well,maybe I'll just turn down the
notch to, so the people knowthat there's a difference
between me and incumbent.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (08:39):
Hmm.
I wonder I'm trying to rememberfrom your book, I believe Nixon
played with Ike, but how was hisgame?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-202 (08:48):
His game was not very good,
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (08:50):
Yeah.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-202 (08:50):
uh, he stuck through it.
Even after his presidency,actually, it was very
interesting.
Golf became more prominent forhim after the presidency than it
was during his time as vicepresident and then president.
He sort of did it because ofEisenhower.
And then later on he really sawthat was much to it, and he
(09:12):
appreciated it more as time wenton.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14570 (09:14):
Mm hmm.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (09:15):
he
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (09:15):
know,
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_ (09:16):
a particularly good golfer, but he
was a good sport about it.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (09:19):
well, I can certainly commiserate with
him on that.
I worked for a while, I wasdirector of the George W.
Bush Library Museum down inDallas, and certainly got to
know the Bush family to somedegree.
Can you relate some of thehistory of the Bush family, a
long history of their family'sinvolvement with the sport of
golf?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05 (09:37):
History goes back decades.
The Walker Cup.
That's part of the Bush legacy.
That's the family.
And you have generations ofgolfers.
So it's not just something, uh,unlike let's say Nixon who took
it up or Eisenhower who was thefirst in the family to take it
up.
This is an illustrious history.
This is a dynasty.
(09:59):
So we're talking about a familythat's been doing it for
generations.
They're known as exceptionalgolfers and is something that's
not just deeply entrenched with,let's say, the presidential
office, this is something deeplyentrenched with a presidential
family.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (10:15):
Yeah.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-20 (10:16):
it's interesting to see how these two
things aligned perfectly.
So, it shouldn't be any surprisethat two, uh, members of the
family became U.
S.
presidents.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (10:26):
Yeah.
Well, George H.
W.
Bush, what did you find thatthe, how he approached the game
reflected his character?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (10:33):
He was a speed golfer,
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14570 (10:35):
Mm hmm.
Hm.
Mm hmm.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05- (10:39):
around him who was in charge and why.
So he was focused and he wasfast.
A lot of times when people arefocused, they tend to be slow
and methodical.
He was that, but he could do it,not with reflecting, but with
reacting.
So this was very much somethingunique to his golf game.
So no other president can saythis.
(11:01):
That golf was, uh, a focus andhe didn't waste.
So there were a lot of youngergolfers around.
Uh, they couldn't keep up withhim.
And that was one thing that manypeople who golfed with him
noted.
I can't keep up with him.
He's really fast.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704 (11:18):
I know George W.
Bush loved golf too but younoted during much of his
administration he didn't play.
Why was that?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2 (11:24):
well, it was a sacrifice he was
willing to make, to show that hewas going to devote all of his
focus and attention during thecountry.
In crisis, you know, during theWar and he didn't want to
distract attention away fromhard news.
He was afraid that if he goesout golfing that the press was
going to, focus on his golfing,get on him for golfing without
(11:46):
the appreciation that nopresident just golfs.
He's golfing with a purpose.
He's going to be with histrusted advisors, or he's going
to have access to certain peopleor different world leaders.
Out on the green, but he figuredthis is the best way for him to
express that he's taking thisseriously, given his family's
(12:07):
history and absolute, uh, wellchronicled love for the game.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14570 (12:11):
So certainly in the wake of 9 11
and the wars in Afghanistan andIraq, yes, taking that, putting
it in the back seat for a while,but then still retaining that
love.
How did his game compare to hisdad's?
I know, uh,
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-202 (12:30):
you know, George 41's legacy than
George 43.
But they were both extremelygood golfers.
So it's not like I'm saying thatone a bad golfer.
Both were extremely good, butjust.
Father could do it and he coulddo it all faster.
So it was a really high bar toreach.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (12:48):
once I was at the Bush house when I
was director of the library andI asked, you know, that little
putting green there and I.
I said to Mrs.
Bush, does he use that veryoften?
She goes, are you kidding me?
Every day.
I said, he was enjoying the postpresidency, that's for sure.
Now, we mentioned this at thevery beginning, just in passing,
but you note some interestingcorrelation between presidents
(13:10):
who golf and their success inelections.
Why would there be such acorrelation?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-20 (13:15):
It's an interesting thing and I was
really when I was looking at it.
In modern times, the onlypresident who didn't golf, who
won over a golfing president,was Jimmy Carter over Gerald
Ford.
And this was very interesting.
So I started looking into whythis was.
And there were a number offactors.
First, it's an image oftradition.
(13:37):
have an imagery to guide us andgolf isn't frenetic.
So you can follow somebody doingit.
So we can sit back and watch apresident being active without
the theatrics.
It's very much a methodicalgame.
It's a game of strategy and it'san image of having control.
So first of all that is apowerful message.
(13:58):
It's something.
can relate to it, somethingseemingly mundane, but yet
there's a lot that you canunpackage just by watching a
president play golf.
You can see who he's playinggolf with, under what
circumstances, and you canextrapolate information.
It's subtle information, but itgives you a feel of the person
running.
(14:19):
Secondly, golf does train yourbrain to think in terms of
strategy that aligns with thatjob.
And few games you can say alignso perfectly with a job as golf.
So you're out in the open.
You have to see the big picture,but you have little, you know,
steps you have to go increment.
To see the big picture, so golfis a way of your brain to think
(14:42):
in terms of leadership, and italso gives the president an
opportunity to network outsidethe Oval Office and campaign
trail without the meddling ofhandlers.
So a lot of handlers can say,no, he can't see you.
When it's leisure time thepresident has, or the candidate
has more say in who they'regoing to see who they're going
to speak to.
And it extends the office beyondthe campaign trail or the Oval
(15:05):
Office to include the golfcourse.
I
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145 (15:08):
Such an interesting observation,
Alexander, really, that, I wastaken by all your book, but that
really struck me, thatcorrelation.
And good explanation of why thatcould be, is absolutely the
case.
Now, let's take a step back andlook at the sport itself.
The presidents who played it,and have played it a lot, some
played it quite well.
How have they affected the imageand the development of the game?
(15:32):
Yeah.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05- (15:35):
really interesting when I was doing
research for the book, that eachpresident brought something
different to the table.
So it's not like a check mark,okay, I can check this off, play
golf, check.
There's more to it.
What is your contribution tothis storied legacy?
So each president who took offgolf added something to the
mythos.
So Taft wasn't signaling that hearrived when he played golf.
(15:58):
He had a genuine love for thegame.
broke through with a novelinterpretation of how we see
this, what was once saw as astodgy sport.
Now, LBJ on the other hand, hewas absolutely horrible at the
game.
But it didn't stop him fromdoing it out in public.
I mean, that takes guts.
(16:19):
And he conducted business out onthe green.
He got legislation through outon the green.
So there was no off button forhim.
So he's working around theclock.
That's actually quite a bigmessage with a game that was
very different than, let's say,Taft.
Um, Barack Obama, on the otherhand, he played basketball and
(16:41):
his wife, Michelle, said youshould take up golf.
So he listened to her.
So he was open to change andsuggestion.
And he got better at the game astime went on.
He was up to taking newchallenges, but he still took up
the mantle of president on adeeper level.
So each president who playedgolf.
Added something different.
(17:01):
Now, Bill Clinton, developed astrong friendship with Canadian
Prime Minister Jean Chrétien outon the green.
So much so that when both menleft office, they still played
golf together.
So this was his way of makingalliances.
And it's really interesting tosee how he connected with world
leaders through the golf game.
So it wasn't, okay, going to ameeting here or there.
(17:23):
Let's go out, relax on thegreen, let's hammer a deal out.
Each one brought something alittle different to the table
that the ones that would comeafter could, you know, had
something to fall back on, butthen they could add something
else to the mix.
So it's a fluid sport.
terms of strategy, golf is avery fluid, evolving sport.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14570 (17:46):
So interesting, really fascinating.
I wondered, look in your crystalball for a moment.
Will golf, you think, alwaysretain that allure for
presidents?
Is there any other sport thatcan compete with it in that
regard?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025 (17:58):
It depends.
really tells you everything youneed to know about a president.
Strengths, weaknesses, plans,and vision.
And it's a gold standard for areason.
Go But you can also say, whatmore can the next president do
and say with the sport?
I think it's here to stay, butsomebody might, let's say
another sport, like such astennis could easily break this
(18:21):
stream, but it would have totake someone who understands
that a leader needs to beactive.
They need to move.
So it's not just sitting at anoffice.
Or walking to this or thatmeeting.
And they could technically use adifferent sport to communicate
effectively with the Americanpeople.
And actually have a genuine lovefor the game.
(18:41):
started it all because he hadorganic love for golf.
So if a candidate was savvyenough, they could actually
break the rules and start a newtradition.
But that would also, I think,alter the trajectory of the
office.
And why remove something thathas worked for generations of
presidents.
So I think it's here to stay.
It's very strategic.
(19:02):
It's very aligned with theoffice.
Might shift, somebody mightthink of something else or do
something else, but.
would, it's very hard pressed tosee it at this point.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704 (19:15):
I fully agree with you.
It's hard to think of any othersport that would fill that same
role.
You spoke of generations ofpresidents.
Playing golf, if you had somemagic and we said all the
presidents were back with us andthey're all out on the links
right now Playing a president'sonly golf tournament, man.
That would be great We could wecould raise a lot of money for a
lot of good charities doingthat.
(19:36):
Uh, uh If we were able to dothat, who do you think would
win?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2025_ (19:41):
I think, uh, George 41, uh,
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_1457 (19:44):
Huh
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05- (19:44):
Walker Bush.
But I think JFK would have givenhim a real run for his money.
Bush was, uh, I always alwayssay the Ramones of golf.
You know, they had concerts inunder 30 minutes.
He had his golf game in thespeed of light.
So this was so ingrained in himtoo.
JFK was also so natural in hisgolf game.
I think it would be a toss up,but I would put my money on, uh,
(20:07):
Bush.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (20:08):
Yeah, I wouldn't vote against bush.
That's for sure.
Yeah, so alexandra reallyfascinating book great
conversation What are youworking on right now?
What's next for you?
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-20 (20:18):
I've been working on developing
different types of true crimeshows with different types of
storytelling.
I fell into it being a TVresearcher for a TV show, um,
true crime show called A Time toKill.
And that's something I fellinto.
And I found that I had apropensity for that because I
love research.
I love looking at little hiddennuggets and things that are
overlooked.
(20:39):
So I, that's where I'm goingright now.
But.
To me, always will be interestedin how the world around me
different people, how they reactto things, how they think.
So I'm always, you know, gamefor a new challenge, but this
book was definitely somethingthat caught my attention and it
just developed a life of itsown.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_14 (21:00):
Well, I'm glad it did.
I really enjoyed it.
I learned a lot from it.
And thank you so much forjoining us on American POTUS.
I enjoyed it.
alexandra-kitty_1_02-05-2 (21:08):
Thank you so much.
alan-lowe_1_02-05-2025_145704 (21:10):
I got to admit, I'm kind of ready
to hit the links now, Alexander,but I don't think the links are
ready for me.
So, I want to thank everyone forlistening and for your support
of American POTUS.
I want you also, please, tocheck out American FLOTUS.
The podcast developed by apartnership of American POTUS
and the First Ladies Associationfor Research and Education, or
FLARE.
(21:30):
You can find American FLOTUSepisodes at AmericanPOTUS.
org, FLARE net.
org, or on your favorite podcastplatform.
So thanks so much for joining usand I'll see you next time on
American POTUS.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com