February 2, 2025 • 48 mins
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Episode Transcript
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alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_ (00:00):
Welcome to American POTUS.
(00:01):
I'm your host, Alan Lowe, and Ithank you so much for joining
us.
I'm very excited to welcome ourguest in this episode, Susan
Eisenhower.
The founder of the EisenhowerGroup, a very successful D.
C.
based consulting company, Susanis sought after as a policy
analyst, as an expert onstrategic leadership, and as a
commentator on outlets like CNNand Fox News.
(00:23):
She's written extensively,appearing in publications like
the Washington Post and the NewYork Times.
And by the way, she's thegranddaughter of President
Dwight Eisenhower.
Today we'll talk with Susanabout her terrific study of her
grandfather titled, How I Led.
The principles behindEisenhower's biggest decisions.
Susan, thanks so much forjoining us on American POTUS.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (00:45):
Well, Alan, it's a real pleasure to be
with you.
Thank you for the opportunity.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (00:48):
So let's start with a bit about
Eisenhower.
Ike, if I may, as a grandfather.
What was he like as a granddad?
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (00:56):
Well, you know, I get asked that a lot
just because he always seemed,um, pretty cheerful publicly and
he didn't believe that he had tobe on television all the time,
which was, uh, course, a newtechnology then.
But he did have weekly pressconferences.
And many people remembered himfrom the war.
So he was remembered, but I'mnot so sure that people could
(01:19):
imagine what his family life waslike.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (01:21):
Mm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (01:21):
Um, I was raised in a, household.
My father was actually his onlysurviving, uh, my grandparents
only surviving child.
He was their second son.
The first one died at the age ofthree of scarlet fever.
But my father then had four ofus and.
My grandparents really doted onus because I think this was the
(01:42):
larger family they wish they'dhad
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (01:44):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Ah.
Ah.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (01:48):
for, as a kid, please keep your
relationship with yourgrandparents and your
grandfather, especially separatefrom policy reputation and his
career in general, because, youhave no control over that and it
won't make you happy.
Um, but he really went.
(02:08):
Extraordinarily out of his wayto be a terrific grandfather.
I rode his horses.
So he would episodically turn upat my horse shows.
And once one of the things Iprized most, I won a little walk
trot competition and received alittle tiny cup, and a blue
ribbon.
He was not there for that show,but, uh, I didn't realize it,
(02:30):
but the cup had disappeared.
And about a month later, hepresented me with a brown
package.
And I opened it up and it was mylittle cup, but he'd had it put
on a pedestal.
My little silver cup, and Istill have it on my bookshelf
behind me.
It's kind of a inspiration abouthow small gestures can make
(02:51):
somebody feel really important.
he was kind.
He was interested.
I have lots of letters from himabout My quote unquote, writing
career and what I'm up to andeven in the last years of his
life he would check in with meabout you know, how are you
doing with this project thatyou're so interested in?
He once asked me how was my dietgoing?
(03:13):
Because I used to talk about itall the time.
And I guess the way to sum it uptoo, is that he just loved kids.
He loved kids.
And he spent a lot of timelearning new math so that he
could talk to us on our ownlevel about what we were being
taught in school.
Uh, so he was in that respect areally regular guy who managed
(03:34):
to manage, to use those wordstwice, the kind of stress he'd
been under because many of thesegestures occurred while he was
in the White House.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (03:43):
Just an amazing man all around.
You know, many times I've beenout to Abilene when I was at the
presidential libraries and sawhis boyhood home and all that.
I wondered as I read thiswonderful book, what in Ike's
background as a youth, what doyou think built the leader that
you describe and how Ike led?
Oh, I guess.
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (04:04):
uh, what Eisenhower homestead in
Abilene will do for yourperspective of this man.
The second house they own there,which is the one that, uh, Ike
and his brothers grew up in, isactually a pretty tiny house.
And I, I think they had maybe atmost three bedrooms upstairs and
one downstairs.
They had, uh, uncle, Oh, getthis.
We had a, uh, I had a unclenamed Abraham Lincoln
(04:27):
Eisenhower, literally uncle Abeslept in the room downstairs.
And then all these as I saidseven boys, six surviving boys,
Upstairs.
Well, you can just imagine whatthat must have been like.
They also the house is on thewrong side of the railway
tracks.
You might say socially.
And so this was an interestingfamily of Pennsylvania,
(04:53):
Mennonite, extraction, I wouldsay, I say extraction because
they were part of a riverbrethren sect that was part of
the Mennonite community.
But anyway they went out toKansas from Pennsylvania late
19th century.
Now, why am I telling you all ofthis?
that it was a very deeplyreligious, rather hardscrabble
existence for them.
(05:13):
And the boys were expected togrow their own vegetables and
then sell them to theirclassmates families on the other
side of the railway tracks.
So early on he was forced intoadopting a sense of humility
about himself.
Um, or two of the other brotherswere more offended by the fact
that they couldn't keep up withthe neighbors on the other side
(05:34):
of the tracks.
But I think Ike for some reason,just came to appreciate hard
work, and didn't mind sellinghis vegetables, the other,
vegetables.
Um, you know, the other familiesin Abilene, I think that the
religious tradition of theEisenhowers and their community
there fit very nicely,ironically, with the West Point,
(05:56):
uh, ethos, which is to servesomething larger than yourself.
Mind you, Alan, and I'll justsay this quickly, is that the
family was not too thrilled thathe went to West Point and became
a soldier because they were apacifist religious sect.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (06:10):
Hmm.
Interesting.
And again, I do really encouragepeople to go to Abilene, to go
to the home, to the PresidentialLibrary Museum, uh, to the place
of meditation, as it's calledthere on the property as well.
And you really do get a muchbetter sense of Ike's background
and the man he was.
I'm skipping way ahead in thestory.
And again, I encourage people tobuy your book, How Ike Led, but
(06:34):
let's skip up to D Day.
And before we came on air today,we're talking about Normandy.
I, I was finally able to gothere a couple of years ago with
my wife and, and it's kind of anoverwhelming experience of
realizing what sacrificehappened there for us.
What principles do you thinkhelp explain Ike's handling of
that day?
It's so complex, so stressful.
(06:55):
What helped him be successfuland to handle all the stresses
of D Day?
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31 (07:00):
wasn't just the, uh, the stresses, of
course, started well beforethen.
I think in order to understandWhat he was really facing on
that day, one would have tojust, say briefly that, I'm
going to say parentheses.
This is my own theory, but Ithink we've really romanticized
World War Two, and especiallythe European theater.
(07:21):
And when I say romanticized, Imean, it was the scale and scope
of it was horrific., thecasualties, the loss of life,
the Holocaust, all of it is justunthinkably terrible.
But we romanticize how, theBritish American relationship at
that time, the, the Brits saidthat they stood alone against
(07:42):
Nazi power, but there wereplenty of, the countries of,
their empire, who also foughtCanada and Australia being good
examples and this is the contextthat often gets lost, is that
the British still had its empireat that point, um, and had a
different set of interests thanours were, in addition to the
fact that they looked atstrategy quite differently than
(08:04):
Americans do, so thisdisagreement about when um, Um,
the allies would cross theEnglish Channel and attack
German occupied Europe was a,uh, heated and sometimes
extremely unpleasant debate thatwent on for some time before the
actual date itself.
And then I think you'd have toadd very quickly, that It was
(08:27):
probably very hard, and Ishouldn't say probably, it was
very hard for the British toaccept the growing role of the
United States in this Europeanwar and what that actually meant
because we started a massivecampaign to industrialize for
the war.
And by the time we get to D Day,there's about to be a massive
(08:49):
shift.
In the war effort itself betweenrelying mostly on British
resources to a shift of Americansuperiority in this area.
So it's Ike who gets the commandand he has some subordinates who
are really very uncomfortableand very unhappy about the fact
that an American is leading thishistoric attack on the Normandy
(09:12):
shores.
Eisenhower looks at this planand says, there's not enough
firepower here.
And if you want me to keep thisjob, we're going to have to add
two beaches in an airborneoperation.
Because you have to Attack withoverwhelming force, or it would
be quite, um, imaginable thatyou would be thrown back into
the
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (09:32):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (09:33):
Um, so all of that that whole plan
under Eisenhower's instructionsafter he gets the nod to be the
Supreme Commander of AlliedForces.
That whole shift in even thestrategy for the D Day launch
itself, uh, occurs in the monthsjust going into the invasion, in
June.
and then, of course, there was ashortage of resources, shortage
(09:55):
of, uh, landing craft, uh, hehad to be bargaining, with the
folks in Washington about wheresome of these resources were
going to go because we were alsofighting in the Far East.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (10:05):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (10:06):
so all of these are huge pressures
and then disagreements aroundvarious parts of the plan.
And finally, the, what I pointedout in my book.
is different than, well, it wasa little bit more detailed than
another, recounting of thislaunch was the very difficult
decision about using airborneforces.
(10:26):
Um, and at the very end, uh, theGermans move a division into the
area that looks like itthreatens the viability of the
airborne drop, Eisenhowerdecides that he has to use those
airborne troops anyway.
So then you get, combine thatwith a very controversial
weather forecast.
And of course, you know, inorder for airborne troops to be
(10:48):
successful, they have to, itsure helps to know where they're
dropping, right?
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (10:52):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (10:53):
And I think that the combination of
those things, what he'd realizedis that even though the
predictions that the airborneforces would be wiped out, he
had to use them because theywere the linchpin of the
operation.
And if they couldn't clearcertain parts of the Normandy
coast, especially the causewaysoff of the beaches that the GIs
(11:14):
coming on shore could be thrownback into the sea.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (11:17):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (11:17):
So, how did he manage that tension?
And I'm sorry to give you such along answer to all this, but is
one of the extraordinary timesin his career.
He managed it, I think, with asense of acceptance.
Um, he keeps saying in hisdiaries and other places.
He's going to do everything hecan.
He's going to do his absolutebest and he can't do anything
(11:41):
more than his absolute best.
And, you know, a lot of peoplecan't to terms with that, I
think.
But it turns out that thatoperation was successful and it
was not the end of the war byany means, but it was a game
changer.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150441 (11:56):
I know many of us have seen those
photos of Ike with thoseparatroopers before they take
out.
Personal visit he made withthem.
Mm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (12:06):
as an analyst rather than a family
member, because I, I still amvery much compartmentalized.,
Mom and dad, but I'm very movedby that.
So, you know, these were theairborne troops that he'd been
told by his commander, We'regonna be eviscerated and
recommended that they not beused.
(12:26):
But despite that, he went outand he looked these young men in
the eyes,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (12:30):
hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (12:31):
and I don't know how many commanders
do that these days when they intheir own minds that they are
sending possibly anextraordinarily large proportion
of these young men to theirdeaths.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (12:42):
hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (12:43):
Um, I, I just don't know where he
got that internal strength,except that it was his duty to
make this decision and he did itto the best of his ability he
was prepared to live with theconsequences and to take full
and sole responsibility shouldit end in failure.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1504 (13:02):
And I'm sure that our listeners know
the, the in case of failure,note story that he had prepared
that day on D Day just in caseit didn't happen.
And then the, the took theresponsibility upon himself if
that had happened.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (13:13):
Well, yes.
And, and let's, okay.
So just to put it in starkestterms, he was actually taking
full responsibility for theweather forecast.
I mean, he was Also acceptingthe fact that he might have made
the wrong judgment about whetherto deploy the troops that day or
not.
There aren't many people whowant to have their career
determined by what the weatherforecast is.
(13:36):
And to know that if the weatherforecast isn't what it was
predicted to be, that you aregoing to accept the fact that
you deserve to be sent down fromyour job.
I should say one thing about theweather forecast, too, is that
not everybody on the weatherteam agreed with the forecast.
So that made another one ofthose variables know, a source
of, enormous concern.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (13:57):
Yeah.
Just incredible stress.
And so let's skip forward a bit.
Um, post war, he initially saidhe was not going to run for the
presidency.
And, but then of course he doesmake a successful run in 1952.
What was behind that change?
From the earlier determinationto his eventual running and
winning.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (14:17):
Well, if you think about it, there's a
fair distance of time betweenthe end of the war in 1945 and
running in 1952.
And he was under a lot ofpressure, even as early as 1944,
to run for, president becausehe'd already commanded
successful operations in NorthAfrica and Italy, et cetera.
(14:39):
I mean, I should say in Sicilyand he thought it was absurd for
anybody to suggest a, he run forpresident and be the, he would
even consider, well, you know,the war hadn't even been won.
Well, he at least says in hisdiary that he doesn't think
being a soldier, even at thevery top of the chain of command
is necessarily a qualificationfor the presidency.
(15:02):
And the other thing is, I thinkit's worth noting is that of
the, military officers, theydidn't vote in elections.
The tradition was you servedyour country and you didn't
vote.
Yeah.
So one of the reasons he wasunder so much pressure after the
war is the Democrats andRepublicans couldn't figure out
what political party he wasassociated with.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (15:25):
Right.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (15:26):
So they both came calling, both
parties did, and in one veryinteresting exchange, and I'm
sure given your extensiveexperience, the presidential
archives, piece of this, HarryTruman's letter to Dwight
Eisenhower of volunteering tostep down for the presidency to
(15:46):
make way for Dwight Eisenhoweris, it's an extraordinary
letter.
Of course, Eisenhower, at thatin 48, uh, declined to do that
and didn't even want to do it in1952, particularly when Truman
again made that offer for thesecond time.
Um, But I think one of thereasons Eisenhower and Truman
didn't get along so well lateris that Truman was upset that
(16:11):
when Eisenhower was finallypersuaded to do it, that he ran
as a Republican and not aDemocrat.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (16:17):
hmm.
Well, we know he, he did run asa Republican successfully.
And as you looked at those twoterms as president what did you
take away as lessons learnedfrom his way of making decisions
or planning as the chiefexecutive?
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (16:32):
Well, I think the thing that stands
out most for most people as theyears went on.
Is that there was a lot offeeling that he'd spent a lot of
time on the golf course andwasn't paying attention to what
was going on.
it's worth saying that he hadsome illnesses during his
presidency.
He had a heart attack, forinstance, and that made people
(16:52):
wonder whether he was really onthe job.
I will say, and we discoveredcertainly when he ran again in
1956, he still had all of hismarbles.
So this was a setback and hewasn't sure he was going to run
for a second term, but he did.
And a lot of very big andtransformational decisions were
made in his, second term, far asthe principles are concerned.
(17:14):
He was a strategist and, Alan,what I was hoping to do in this
book was to underscore the factthat Dwight Eisenhower, the
general and Dwight Eisenhower,the president was the same
person,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (17:24):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (17:25):
he'd just taken the stars off his
shoulders and, um, relinquishedhis designation as a, general,
he became a civilian.
But he thought about politicalproblems the same way he thought
about military strategy in away.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (17:39):
Mm hmm.
Well,
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (17:44):
you know, if you're holding
classified information and youropposition is acting like you
don't know what you're doing.
Tough luck.
You know, there was also the wayhe treated people.
He had many, many devotedassociates and he liked to
surround himself with people whohad differing ideas.
So he loved the pushback.
(18:06):
he loved hearing, all sides ofthe argument because he thought
that that helped him fill insome strategic gaps in his own
thinking.
And he used to say to hiscabinet members, get this, they
used to have a cabinet meetingonce a week and, and the
president had a press conferenceonce a week, too, he would say
(18:27):
to them, make your case, makeyour case to me.
And this is very similar to, howhe fulfilled his
responsibilities during WorldWar II.
with, by the way a group ofcommanders who were only too
ready to tell him what theythought.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (18:45):
that shows a real strength of
character to be able to hearthose differing opinions and not
just want to hear your opinionpared it back to you.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (18:51):
Well, look, in his view, there was too
much at stake.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (18:54):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (18:55):
This wasn't about ego.
This is about making the bestdecision um, with an array of
unattractive, you know,alternatives.
By the time decisions get up tothat level, and you know this
from your extraordinary work,Um, all, all of the tough ones
are left for the top.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (19:14):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (19:15):
If it was easy to sort out, it was
done at lower levels long ago.
And so you're faced withusually, uh, an array of
decisions that are allcomplicated, uh, have long
histories.
And as a matter of fact, I sayto people today, you have to
understand the context of ourtimes in order to make the right
(19:36):
decision.
Because just because we don'tremember something doesn't mean
that another country.
has forgotten it too.
Yes,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (19:44):
that knowledge of history, and we
were talking a bit about thatbefore we went on the air here
that, uh, That we sometimes losein this country, I'm afraid, but
we are the American poters aretrying our best to help with, of
having that background ofunderstanding, uh, that context
and that perspective, I think isinvaluable and absolutely
important.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (20:03):
it is.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1504 (20:04):
So, Ike wrote that quote, only the
promises of the extreme rightand extreme left, he feared that
only those would be heard inpublic places.
So how did he take on thechallenge of those extremes,
those extreme voices with whatwas called his middle way?
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31 (20:21):
Right, he loved that concept of the
middle way, and he also made thepoint that crafting the middle
way was a harder job than beingan extremist on either side of
the political spectrum.
Because it required, um,conciliation.
It required personal diplomacy.
It required finding commonground.
It, required making compromise.
(20:44):
Because his view was that middleway was where the progress was
going to be made, not on theextremes because the extremes
were out for kind of maximalistvictory.
And, we look back on that time.
Many people tell me, oh, thatwas such a placid, wonderful
time.
Well, actually,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (21:02):
Right.
Mm hmm.
Wow.
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (21:06):
was just a different set of
objectives that he was going tofind the middle.
So one thing that I thought wasreally interesting is that out
of an eight year presidency, sixof those years, Congress was
controlled by the other party.
And despite that, he got 80percent of his legislative
agenda through Congress.
(21:26):
And there was a lot of hard workin that.
That meant that the speaker andthe majority leader, that was
Sam Rayburn, of course, andLyndon Johnson, uh, were invited
to the White House regularly fora scotch on Friday evening to
shoot the breeze.
And, uh, he was constantlyinviting Democrats and
Republicans to have lunch andbreakfast with him.
(21:47):
And if they called the WhiteHouse, they got put straight
through.
And, you know, there's a lot ofwork involved in all of this.
And I think we've sort of takento social media these days as a
way to, of the energy and thecommitment it takes to actually
forming real relationships.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (22:06):
That, uh, that is so vitally
important.
For several years, I worked withSenator Howard Baker, and he had
that same kind of comment thatin his time in the Senate, it
was so important, those personalrelationships, not just
meetings, but things likesoftball games or, or having a
drink and being able to affectgood public policy in that way.
And yeah,
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (22:28):
It's, and I understood this is that
it's very easy to demonizepeople,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (22:34):
mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_0 (22:34):
especially if you haven't met their wives
and children.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (22:38):
Yeah.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (22:39):
so, my grandmother used to say when
she had a state dinner or somekind of big official reception,
she made it very clear from thebeginning, she didn't want to
know what political partyanybody came from.
And there was going to be noinviting to the White House of,
campaign supporters singled outas being somebody special.
This was going to be you know, amix of Washington.
(23:00):
Also, Ike had so called Stagdinners, of course, you would
never call it that these days,but because of where we were in
our history, there were not alot of women.
He had a couple of cabinet whoare women, but generally
speaking, these were people fromaround the country and he would
select them, Democrats andRepublicans, industrialists and
everybody else to come to theWhite House for a dinner and,
(23:23):
Tell them how life looked tothem.
Um, he gained a lot from, youknow, just understanding other
people's views.
I'd like to say one more timethat that's exactly what he did
during the war.
He used to go out to GIencampments and go into the
kitchens to find out what theywere eating and to check the
pots and pans and to make sure.
(23:43):
You know, uh, that their livingaccommodations were decent.
He thought all those things wereequally important in the
campaign for, um, to that war toan end.
And you might say that was partof his strategy for making
progress in America.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (23:59):
Now, as you said, that the 1950s were
most definitely not placid.
There were so many things goingon, and one of those was facing
Senator Joseph McCarthy and hisallegations, uh, the present in
the past has faced somecriticism for not taking him on
perhaps more vigorously, butthat analysis has certainly been
undergoing revision.
How did you find that?
I, in his own way, effectivelycountered the extremism of
(24:21):
McCarthy.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (24:22):
Well, you know, I think this is a
wonderful example of Ike styleof leadership.
because first of all.
was awkward.
Um, Senator McCarthy was amember of his own party.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (24:33):
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (24:34):
he, took to accusing everybody, uh,
being a communist pretty much.
All kinds of great publicfigures that we know about, um,
from that period of history,like Ralph Bunche, and other
great figures were all accusedby Senator McCarthy of
something, and I believe that,uh, McCarthy never had a Full
litigated success.
(24:56):
He was a demagogue that for hisday was the equivalent of a
social media superstar.
And Ike suspected that what hewanted more than anything else,
Joseph McCarthy, was attention.
So Ike's theory about that isthat if you're opposing somebody
or if you're in a battle whatyou try to do is deprive the
(25:16):
quote unquote enemy.
Of what they want.
Um, and if McCarthy wantedattention, Dwight Eisenhower is
not going to give it to him.
there were plenty of people inthe White House who said, you
know, you're making a mistake,you've got a bully pulpit, you
need to get up on the bullypulpit and, put this guy in his
place and Eisenhower told himthey were nuts.
Um, he said I'm not going to getinto the gutter with that guy.
(25:40):
I'm not going to let him start acontroversial debate with the
president of the United Statesbecause that's the level at
which he wishes to work.
So he used his time and energyon McCarthy instead by trying to
persuade his own party tocensure, Senator McCarthy, who,
you know, Of course, the, uh,the White House couldn't censure
McCarthy.
(26:00):
It would have to be his owncontemporaries in the Senate.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (26:04):
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (26:04):
Um, I, I wonder if you'd just let me
read something,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_ (26:07):
Please.
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (26:08):
about McCarthy, it's rather funny.
Ike writes, only a short sightedor completely inexperienced
individual would urge the use ofthe office of the presidency to
give an opponent the publicityhe so avidly desires.
Um, so the thing is, is that byRefusing to give McCarthy, the
(26:30):
proper standing that McCarthywanted.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (26:33):
Yes.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (26:33):
you know, the thing finally just
sort of faded away.
I would say that McCarthy'smistake was probably to accuse
members of the military, peoplewho'd
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (26:45):
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31 (26:45):
during World War II, to accuse them of
being communists.
and then, they really ramped itup and Eisenhower finally
through back channels,convinced, his own political
party to censure McCarthy in.
was the end of it.
But what a chapter.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (27:00):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01 (27:01):
principle of don't give them what they
want.
And by the way, um, attention isvery very potent.
So you get in an argument with aguy like this and the news media
loves it because it'scontroversial.
a human interest story.
And before you know it, you, youcan't control the events that
follow from that.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (27:20):
Yeah.
Well, that, that clearheadstrategic view of things that
Ike showed there, how did hisactions reflect that?
In the SUEZ crisis?
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2025 (27:31):
I think this is a really
interesting story, the SuezCrisis, because it, uh, happens
in 1956, just going into, the reelection campaign, and, uh,
Eisenhower already had a bigenough decision to make, which
was related to his own health.
Whether or not he was going torun for a second term because he
had suffered but recovered froma heart attack.
(27:52):
and he decided to run again andwe don't have time to get into
that decision, but it was not.
long after that decision thatthings begin to turn into a
crisis in the Middle East again,the context for this story is
our larger events, which, besummed up in a simple sentence
(28:14):
that.
After World War II the Britishwere beginning to lose their
hold on the empire, and, uh, aswe know in India things had
already shaken loose, and thencoming into the 1950s the
Egyptian president Nasser comesto power, and there are
struggles around what's left ofthe empire and one of, of
(28:36):
course, the most pointed areasis the Suez Canal, actually,
this has incredible resonancefor today in an interesting way.
The British we're claiming,ownership.
Or at least, uh, some standingto remain in charge of the Suez
Canal.
And Nasser pushed very hard.
(28:56):
He pushed so hard, by the way,he even recognized communist
China and other things.
So there were feelings by somein the West that, he was part of
the communist movement.
But the Eisenhoweradministration did an assessment
and according to internationallaw, Certainly, Great Britain
and other colonial powersmanaged the canal, but they
(29:18):
didn't own it, and that thecanal actually belonged to
Egypt.
And this is what creates thecrisis, or the beginning of the
crisis.
For me, what was interestingabout this whole story was
simply that our wartime alliesin World War II ganged on the
United States of America,secretly, including Israel, that
(29:39):
had just been founded.
and those three countriesdecided, that they were going to
overthrow Nasser and they paidlip service to Eisenhower's
ideas about, trying to moderateand take care of this crisis
diplomatically because thepresident did not want the
Soviet Union to intervene.
(30:00):
Okay.
Well, anyway, to make a rathercolorful story This is all going
on literally in the last days ofthe campaign.
As a matter of fact, Eisenhowerdidn't even get to campaign
headquarters, until the partywas practically over because he
was on the phone still workingon the Suez crisis.
(30:20):
Uh, he did not campaign duringthat time.
I mean this wasn't a basementstrategy.
This was, he was on the phone.
Threatening
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (30:28):
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (30:29):
his former wartime allies with
repudiating what they were doingonce their duplicity
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_ (30:36):
Mm-hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01- (30:37):
evident.
Um, so the principle of that oneis, which I think is,
interesting and deserves greaterdebate within the United States
of America.
he, I'm going to paraphrasethis, but he basically said.
As long as we have one rule forour friends and our allies one
rule for everyone else.
(30:57):
will never be peace.
In other words, he believed in,uh, rule of law, and you
couldn't have international lawand then make special exceptions
for your
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150441 (31:08):
I see.
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (31:08):
And, You know, actually his speech to
the nation on the Suez crisis isone of the great classics.
but, um, has been a rule thathas been very, very hard for us
to accept.
So I would just close thisquestion by saying.
After World War II, I mean,everybody who was involved at
his level, and even the peoplewho bravely and heroically
(31:32):
fought, nobody wanted to see waragain, number one.
Number two, nuclear weapons,including the hydrogen bomb,
changed everything, so the worldcouldn't afford to have another
war.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (31:44):
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (31:45):
that ends up being the overriding
principle that then, you know,reveals to the world that he
recognizes that you can't haverule for one group and one rule
for everyone else, that therewon't be peace unless we have
one world under, the UnitedNations, where it came to these
(32:05):
kinds of issues.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (32:07):
Well, let's turn to the domestic scene
from that.
So there are principles that heapplied domestically as well,
including in his approach tocivil rights.
So what were those principles?
Uh, that guided him, includinghis decision, very important
decision, to send troops toLittle Rock to enforce the
Supreme Court's ruling on schooldesegregation.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (32:28):
Yeah, well, I think this is one area
to your point, Alan, earlierabout, scholars are re
evaluating this area.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (32:35):
hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01- (32:35):
scholars didn't look very hard in the
past, if you want my personalopinion, because he's got it
written all over his earlyspeeches, both in his inaugural
address and also in his State ofthe Union addresses, that his
strategy for civil rights was todesegregate everything the
federal government controlled.
And that's what he did by theend of his presidency.
(32:57):
Uh, he desegregated, Washington,D.
C.
He put Supreme Court judges onthe bench who were anti
segregation and brought aboutBrown versus Board of Education,
which was the Supreme Courtfinding that called for the
integration of schools, etcetera.
And he also desegregated thearmed forces, uh, even after the
(33:19):
Truman presidential degree, notmuch progress had been made on
that.
I think I mentioned that hedesegregated Washington, D.
C.
The point is, is that he had astrategy all right, but I, I
liken this strategy to the D Daystrategy, that is his chief
objective was to make sure thathis troops didn't get thrown
back into the sea.
(33:40):
That he established a beachheadand in civil rights, that's what
he did.
He established a beachhead.
If the federal governmentdesegregates everything it
controls, then this isn'tsomething that can be
overturned.
The rest of it, which obviouslywas much more complicated as we
saw in the late fifties and theninto the sixties and onwards.
(34:01):
Was the attitude of the stategovernments governor Faubus from
Arkansas was talking out of bothsides of his mouth about
complying with a Brown versusboard of education.
He had obligations to sendforward a plan on desegregation
of the schools in Arkansas andsaid he was going to do it and
he didn't do it.
(34:21):
And I didn't like that at
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (34:23):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (34:24):
Um, and was going to enforce the law
of the land in the UnitedStates.
So often people say to me, wasDwight Eisenhower serious about,
civil rights?
And I, I like to say, do youknow who we sent to usher those
kids into their class, thosenine American students into
their classrooms at Central HighSchool in Little Rock, Arkansas,
(34:46):
the 101st Airborne Division.
And you know who they were?
They did D Day.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (34:50):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (34:52):
Day.
Uh, this was a serious thing.
He didn't believe that you doanything in a quiet, half
hearted way, because if you doit, people question your
sincerity.
So that was, um, make no mistakeabout it kind of a move.
There was a lot of work still tobe done, but it's also
interesting that he supportedKennedy's civil rights
(35:15):
legislation and made it clear toa number of Republicans that if
they didn't support LyndonJohnson's civil rights measures,
uh, that he would be voting forJohnson.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (35:25):
hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2025 (35:26):
I think many people also don't
understand, I should just throwthat in there that he passed the
first civil rights legislationsince Reconstruction in 1957.
So it's quite a record,actually.
I think the fact is, again,didn't use a bully pulpit in a
way that frustrated some people.
And part of the reason was, isthat he had to find language
(35:48):
that made it impossible for theSouth to disagree.
he argued for civil rightsaround rule of law.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (35:57):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (35:58):
And it was a less satisfying way to
argue it, but the South had norebuttal to it.
Had it gotten a lot morepersonal about, uh, how immoral
you are or how outrageous it is,it would have only stiffened
their spine.
That was his theory.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1504 (36:14):
I'm glad our eyes are opening to
that as well, and seeing betterthe moves he made during the
administration that were sopositive that, uh, That often we
haven't heard about in the pastand that includes in civil
rights, but I want to turn nowto something I think about a lot
every day because of my day job,I run a couple of science
museums in Tennessee and, and,uh, we, we talk a lot about
Sputnik launched by the Sovietsand in 1957, when you looked at,
(36:37):
uh, at the president's reactionto the launch of Sputnik.
What did that reveal to youabout his character and about
his goals?
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (36:44):
And I'm just smiling here because I,
I read that the Chinese, um,revelation that they could
produce an AI tool that wascheaper and every bit as
powerful as what we've produced.
Uh, causes panic, a panic in oursystem, and they call it now,
this is our Sputnik moment.
(37:05):
Well, you know, it didn'tactually quite unfold quite
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (37:07):
Yeah, right, right.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (37:09):
in the 1950s.
The thing is, is that we knewthe Soviet Union was going to be
launching, uh, artificialsatellites into space.
And why do we know that?
Because we had an agreement withthe Soviet Union that both the
United States and the SovietUnion would be launching such
satellites in 1957.
The 1957.
As part of internationalgeophysical year, which was a
(37:31):
scientific year for exploration.
And so what was a littledisingenuous about the panic
around Sputnik was that theSoviet scientists were actually
in Washington, D.
C.
days before Sputnik waslaunched, talking to their
counterparts, Americancounterparts, about the
launching of Sputnik.
Sputnik.
(37:51):
and it was on the front page ofthe New York Times and other
things which I, of course, quotein my book and, um, as soon as
it happened, actually peoplewent, Oh, my, isn't that
something?
But it was really tempting goinginto a midterm election.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (38:05):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-3 (38:06):
Really, really tempting to say, you
know, the United States wascaught by surprise.
Now the question probablyremains, was it a good idea that
the United States let the SovietUnion go first?
Because we did have a way tocreate rocket technology that
would have beat the Soviets hadwe opted to do that.
But now know from the archivesand, and other things that it
(38:29):
was a decision of theadministration.
let them go first simply becausethey would accidentally
establish the legal precedent offree access to space.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (38:40):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (38:41):
In jet overflights.
We have the sovereignty of ourairspace, right?
But, uh, there had been no legalprecedent about low earth orbit
or anything beyond that.
And this established thatprinciple.
Had we been first, the SovietUnion might well have said, Oh
my gosh, this is an act of war.
Uh, that's what they did overthe U 2 program which were
(39:03):
overflights over the SovietUnion.
it's a little more complicated,but here's the bottom line.
It's intriguing, for me as ananalyst and a foreign policy
type, intriguing that, strategyrequired, Um, standing back and
demonstrating a kind ofrestraint, even political
(39:26):
restraint, understanding thatthe benefit would be way better
later.
So in the meantime, we'redeveloping reconnaissance
satellites that were ready togo.
And, we ended up being the luckyones in all of this.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (39:41):
Real strength and integrity on
display under a lot of stress.
He took up painting, though,while he was in the White House.
Did he take that up because ofthe stress?
What, what led him to thathobby?
Yeah.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (39:54):
it's interesting.
Winston Churchill, uh, was apainter, and Winston Churchill
was very excited about paintinglandscapes he talked about his
painting a lot.
As a matter of fact, I rememberas a kid, Grandad had just been
given a painting by WinstonChurchill, and Ike said, Well,
I'm going to have to ask Winstonhow he gets his water to look
like that.
(40:15):
so it's very cute, but I mean,during the war, a lot of people
did paint for relaxation.
So after the war generalEisenhower at this point now,
uh, president of Columbiauniversity, took up painting
because his own portrait painterencouraged him, to do it as a
way to kind of relax and enjoy.
something that is completelyunrelated to world events.
(40:38):
So Grandad started actually justafter the war and he got to be
pretty good.
For your listeners there, theymight really enjoy Googling
Eisenhower's painting of WinstonChurchill, which is really quite
an extraordinary piece of work.
And, the other interesting oneis Dwight Eisenhower's painting
of, Field Marshal Montgomery,um, you know, one of his
(40:59):
subordinates who was a verychallenging figure.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (41:03):
Yeah.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (41:04):
Shall we say, uh, but he did paint the
portraits of most of his wartimesubordinates.
I mean at the Shafe level andShafe being headquarters,
Supreme Allied Headquarters.
And then he took to paintingportraits for people like
Princess Anne of Princess Royaltoday, who is, uh, King Charles
the Third's sister and he gavethem to Queen Elizabeth the
(41:27):
Second, who he had known sinceshe was a young girl, um, so he
used it as a way to um, saythank you and to let people know
that he had spent a lot of timethinking about them.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (41:38):
And, as I was telling you before we
started taping, I was directorof the George W.
Bush library and he took uppainting as well, George W.
Bush did, and, uh, he alsopainted portraits, a lot of
them, a lot of them foreignleaders as well that we put on
display there.
I must admit for PresidentEisenhower, I've seen his
landscapes, but never hisportraits.
So I'm going to look those up aswell, uh, right after this.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (41:59):
Alan, I think his portraits were
better and I think that'sbecause he was more interested
in people than landscapes.
But there, there's another thinghere too, is that, he didn't
feel the same way WinstonChurchill did about his
paintings.
He says, oh, these are daubs andI'm only doing it to relax and
look at a scene in a differentway, but he did a lot of those
landscapes from postcards.
(42:19):
And this wasn't paint bynumbers.
He actually painted them, but hedidn't think they were any big
deal.
Once when there was anexhibition in New York of his
paintings, he said to somebodywho said, Now why did you paint
it this way?
And he says, listen, this stuffis just, you know, this is my
hobby.
It wouldn't even be hanging onthe walls if I hadn't been
president of the United States.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (42:39):
Well, yeah, I, I still think you had a
great talent.
I always, uh, President Bushwould get mad.
He would say, people can do thisif you try.
I cannot.
And, uh, when I left,
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (42:49):
club here.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (42:49):
right, right, right.
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (42:54):
did give him relaxation and in the
research for this book, I justlove the fact that he says to
his secretary, Anne Whitman, hesays, look out over, he's
sitting in the oval office andhe instructs her to look out the
window and he says, how manyshades of green do you see in
that scene?
And what an interesting metaphorfor the president of the United
(43:15):
States, you know, and he waspainting, by the way, during his
presidency, um, to, uh, that's ametaphor for, think of how many
shades of complexity there areto this issue,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (43:26):
Yes.
Yes.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-3 (43:27):
anyway, I did not get any part of that
DNA, none, so, I've beenridiculed by my children, by the
way, for my lack of talent, so,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1504 (43:36):
Oh, no.
We have talents in other ways,Susan.
That's
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (43:39):
well, I hope so.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (43:40):
right.
So how I glad you talk about somany amazing character traits,
principles that guide itPresident Eisenhower, which of
those do you most wish that allof our future American leaders
would possess?
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (43:57):
well, um, maybe if I'm allowed to, I
would say, first of all, therestraint makes it possible to
do a deeper analysis of whypeople do what they do.
I remember, uh, there are acertain number of dinner table
lessons that, we were subjectto, whether we wanted to hear
them or not.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (44:17):
Yeah.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (44:18):
uh, one of them was how do you think
it looks to the other guy?
Now, this sometimes is calledstrategic empathy, but it's not
always about empathy.
I mean, you can't be makingdecisions, in a war like the
European theater in World WarII, or even in the Far East.
without a really carefulassessment of what the
(44:38):
preconceived ideas are of theother side.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (44:41):
Mm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (44:42):
Um, it's just that you can't really
do much in life that relates togetting results without thinking
through methodically what'sgoing to work and how do you
know what's going to work unlessyou know how it looks to your
counterparts,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (44:56):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (45:00):
and so I wish we did more of that
because, uh, I've been in theforeign policy field pretty much
my whole career.
I hear people say all the time,I don't know why they did that.
And I want to say, I do, uh,look at it from their point of
view.
And that doesn't mean that youhave to give into it.
just that you might be verysurprised by what they do next.
(45:22):
If you haven't done an analysisof that kind, on the personal
level.
There's a wonderful scene in thebook where this little boy is on
stage with General Eisenhowerand he's receiving some award
and his little knees areknocking and Ike goes over to
him and says to the little boy,he said, would you hold my hand?
He, this is General
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1504 (45:42):
Oh,
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (45:43):
well, my hand, I'm nervous and the
little boy looked up and hesaid, are you nervous?
I'm nervous too.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (45:50):
That's amazing.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (45:51):
Yeah, well, I'm just saying that it's
one of those principles, right,that I think would be helpful.
And I would just say, inconclusion that we're all
neighbors and we're all membersof this one big, wonderful
country.
And if we started looking ateach other like neighbors again,
uh, it might do a lot too.
(46:11):
Reduce tensions that seem tohave overtaken us.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150441 (46:15):
I have faith that we will, um,
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (46:17):
Me too.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (46:18):
well, what's next for you, Susan?
What are you working on rightnow?
Well,
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (46:25):
uh, another book idea.
I've got about half of one inthe can, but I don't think the
timing's quite right.
And get this, it's going torequire, yes, more source notes.
I must say there are days when Ithink, you know, a trashy novel
is in my future, but to be quitefrank about this I'm afraid I'm
too serious to even know how todo that.
(46:46):
So.
this'll be maybe something,slightly different, but, I found
long ago that if you talk aboutthe next project it's sure that
it'll never happen.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (46:57):
when it does happen, we'd love to
have you back on American POTUS.
A real pleasure and honor tospeak with you today.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (47:02):
no, it was my, my pleasure and
honor.
And thank you for all you have,you know, done, uh, these
valuable museums, because Ireally, really recommend to
everybody a chance to go seethese presidential libraries and
science museums and everythingelse.
They are among the very greatestassets this country has.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (47:21):
Well, thank you for that, Susan.
Thank you so much.
And I want to thank everyone forlistening and for your support
of American POTUS.
You know, we are a 501c3nonprofit dedicated to providing
educational and civildiscussions of the presidents
and the presidency.
So we thank everyone for yoursupport.
And I encourage you also tocheck out American FLOTUS.
(47:41):
The podcast American POTUS isproducing in partnership with
the First Ladies Association forResearch and Education, or
FLAIR.
You can find American FLOTUSepisodes at AmericanPOTUS.
org, FLAIR net.
org, or on your favorite podcastplatform.
So thanks so much, and I'll seeyou next time on American POTUS.
Welcome to American POTUS.
(00:01):
I'm your host, Alan Lowe, and Ithank you so much for joining
us.
I'm very excited to welcome ourguest in this episode, Susan
Eisenhower.
The founder of the EisenhowerGroup, a very successful D.
C.
based consulting company, Susanis sought after as a policy
analyst, as an expert onstrategic leadership, and as a
commentator on outlets like CNNand Fox News.
(00:23):
She's written extensively,appearing in publications like
the Washington Post and the NewYork Times.
And by the way, she's thegranddaughter of President
Dwight Eisenhower.
Today we'll talk with Susanabout her terrific study of her
grandfather titled, How I Led.
The principles behindEisenhower's biggest decisions.
Susan, thanks so much forjoining us on American POTUS.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (00:45):
Well, Alan, it's a real pleasure to be
with you.
Thank you for the opportunity.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (00:48):
So let's start with a bit about
Eisenhower.
Ike, if I may, as a grandfather.
What was he like as a granddad?
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (00:56):
Well, you know, I get asked that a lot
just because he always seemed,um, pretty cheerful publicly and
he didn't believe that he had tobe on television all the time,
which was, uh, course, a newtechnology then.
But he did have weekly pressconferences.
And many people remembered himfrom the war.
So he was remembered, but I'mnot so sure that people could
(01:19):
imagine what his family life waslike.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (01:21):
Mm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (01:21):
Um, I was raised in a, household.
My father was actually his onlysurviving, uh, my grandparents
only surviving child.
He was their second son.
The first one died at the age ofthree of scarlet fever.
But my father then had four ofus and.
My grandparents really doted onus because I think this was the
(01:42):
larger family they wish they'dhad
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (01:44):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Ah.
Ah.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (01:48):
for, as a kid, please keep your
relationship with yourgrandparents and your
grandfather, especially separatefrom policy reputation and his
career in general, because, youhave no control over that and it
won't make you happy.
Um, but he really went.
(02:08):
Extraordinarily out of his wayto be a terrific grandfather.
I rode his horses.
So he would episodically turn upat my horse shows.
And once one of the things Iprized most, I won a little walk
trot competition and received alittle tiny cup, and a blue
ribbon.
He was not there for that show,but, uh, I didn't realize it,
(02:30):
but the cup had disappeared.
And about a month later, hepresented me with a brown
package.
And I opened it up and it was mylittle cup, but he'd had it put
on a pedestal.
My little silver cup, and Istill have it on my bookshelf
behind me.
It's kind of a inspiration abouthow small gestures can make
(02:51):
somebody feel really important.
he was kind.
He was interested.
I have lots of letters from himabout My quote unquote, writing
career and what I'm up to andeven in the last years of his
life he would check in with meabout you know, how are you
doing with this project thatyou're so interested in?
He once asked me how was my dietgoing?
(03:13):
Because I used to talk about itall the time.
And I guess the way to sum it uptoo, is that he just loved kids.
He loved kids.
And he spent a lot of timelearning new math so that he
could talk to us on our ownlevel about what we were being
taught in school.
Uh, so he was in that respect areally regular guy who managed
(03:34):
to manage, to use those wordstwice, the kind of stress he'd
been under because many of thesegestures occurred while he was
in the White House.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (03:43):
Just an amazing man all around.
You know, many times I've beenout to Abilene when I was at the
presidential libraries and sawhis boyhood home and all that.
I wondered as I read thiswonderful book, what in Ike's
background as a youth, what doyou think built the leader that
you describe and how Ike led?
Oh, I guess.
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (04:04):
uh, what Eisenhower homestead in
Abilene will do for yourperspective of this man.
The second house they own there,which is the one that, uh, Ike
and his brothers grew up in, isactually a pretty tiny house.
And I, I think they had maybe atmost three bedrooms upstairs and
one downstairs.
They had, uh, uncle, Oh, getthis.
We had a, uh, I had a unclenamed Abraham Lincoln
(04:27):
Eisenhower, literally uncle Abeslept in the room downstairs.
And then all these as I saidseven boys, six surviving boys,
Upstairs.
Well, you can just imagine whatthat must have been like.
They also the house is on thewrong side of the railway
tracks.
You might say socially.
And so this was an interestingfamily of Pennsylvania,
(04:53):
Mennonite, extraction, I wouldsay, I say extraction because
they were part of a riverbrethren sect that was part of
the Mennonite community.
But anyway they went out toKansas from Pennsylvania late
19th century.
Now, why am I telling you all ofthis?
that it was a very deeplyreligious, rather hardscrabble
existence for them.
(05:13):
And the boys were expected togrow their own vegetables and
then sell them to theirclassmates families on the other
side of the railway tracks.
So early on he was forced intoadopting a sense of humility
about himself.
Um, or two of the other brotherswere more offended by the fact
that they couldn't keep up withthe neighbors on the other side
(05:34):
of the tracks.
But I think Ike for some reason,just came to appreciate hard
work, and didn't mind sellinghis vegetables, the other,
vegetables.
Um, you know, the other familiesin Abilene, I think that the
religious tradition of theEisenhowers and their community
there fit very nicely,ironically, with the West Point,
(05:56):
uh, ethos, which is to servesomething larger than yourself.
Mind you, Alan, and I'll justsay this quickly, is that the
family was not too thrilled thathe went to West Point and became
a soldier because they were apacifist religious sect.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (06:10):
Hmm.
Interesting.
And again, I do really encouragepeople to go to Abilene, to go
to the home, to the PresidentialLibrary Museum, uh, to the place
of meditation, as it's calledthere on the property as well.
And you really do get a muchbetter sense of Ike's background
and the man he was.
I'm skipping way ahead in thestory.
And again, I encourage people tobuy your book, How Ike Led, but
(06:34):
let's skip up to D Day.
And before we came on air today,we're talking about Normandy.
I, I was finally able to gothere a couple of years ago with
my wife and, and it's kind of anoverwhelming experience of
realizing what sacrificehappened there for us.
What principles do you thinkhelp explain Ike's handling of
that day?
It's so complex, so stressful.
(06:55):
What helped him be successfuland to handle all the stresses
of D Day?
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31 (07:00):
wasn't just the, uh, the stresses, of
course, started well beforethen.
I think in order to understandWhat he was really facing on
that day, one would have tojust, say briefly that, I'm
going to say parentheses.
This is my own theory, but Ithink we've really romanticized
World War Two, and especiallythe European theater.
(07:21):
And when I say romanticized, Imean, it was the scale and scope
of it was horrific., thecasualties, the loss of life,
the Holocaust, all of it is justunthinkably terrible.
But we romanticize how, theBritish American relationship at
that time, the, the Brits saidthat they stood alone against
(07:42):
Nazi power, but there wereplenty of, the countries of,
their empire, who also foughtCanada and Australia being good
examples and this is the contextthat often gets lost, is that
the British still had its empireat that point, um, and had a
different set of interests thanours were, in addition to the
fact that they looked atstrategy quite differently than
(08:04):
Americans do, so thisdisagreement about when um, Um,
the allies would cross theEnglish Channel and attack
German occupied Europe was a,uh, heated and sometimes
extremely unpleasant debate thatwent on for some time before the
actual date itself.
And then I think you'd have toadd very quickly, that It was
(08:27):
probably very hard, and Ishouldn't say probably, it was
very hard for the British toaccept the growing role of the
United States in this Europeanwar and what that actually meant
because we started a massivecampaign to industrialize for
the war.
And by the time we get to D Day,there's about to be a massive
(08:49):
shift.
In the war effort itself betweenrelying mostly on British
resources to a shift of Americansuperiority in this area.
So it's Ike who gets the commandand he has some subordinates who
are really very uncomfortableand very unhappy about the fact
that an American is leading thishistoric attack on the Normandy
(09:12):
shores.
Eisenhower looks at this planand says, there's not enough
firepower here.
And if you want me to keep thisjob, we're going to have to add
two beaches in an airborneoperation.
Because you have to Attack withoverwhelming force, or it would
be quite, um, imaginable thatyou would be thrown back into
the
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (09:32):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (09:33):
Um, so all of that that whole plan
under Eisenhower's instructionsafter he gets the nod to be the
Supreme Commander of AlliedForces.
That whole shift in even thestrategy for the D Day launch
itself, uh, occurs in the monthsjust going into the invasion, in
June.
and then, of course, there was ashortage of resources, shortage
(09:55):
of, uh, landing craft, uh, hehad to be bargaining, with the
folks in Washington about wheresome of these resources were
going to go because we were alsofighting in the Far East.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (10:05):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (10:06):
so all of these are huge pressures
and then disagreements aroundvarious parts of the plan.
And finally, the, what I pointedout in my book.
is different than, well, it wasa little bit more detailed than
another, recounting of thislaunch was the very difficult
decision about using airborneforces.
(10:26):
Um, and at the very end, uh, theGermans move a division into the
area that looks like itthreatens the viability of the
airborne drop, Eisenhowerdecides that he has to use those
airborne troops anyway.
So then you get, combine thatwith a very controversial
weather forecast.
And of course, you know, inorder for airborne troops to be
(10:48):
successful, they have to, itsure helps to know where they're
dropping, right?
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (10:52):
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (10:53):
And I think that the combination of
those things, what he'd realizedis that even though the
predictions that the airborneforces would be wiped out, he
had to use them because theywere the linchpin of the
operation.
And if they couldn't clearcertain parts of the Normandy
coast, especially the causewaysoff of the beaches that the GIs
(11:14):
coming on shore could be thrownback into the sea.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (11:17):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (11:17):
So, how did he manage that tension?
And I'm sorry to give you such along answer to all this, but is
one of the extraordinary timesin his career.
He managed it, I think, with asense of acceptance.
Um, he keeps saying in hisdiaries and other places.
He's going to do everything hecan.
He's going to do his absolutebest and he can't do anything
(11:41):
more than his absolute best.
And, you know, a lot of peoplecan't to terms with that, I
think.
But it turns out that thatoperation was successful and it
was not the end of the war byany means, but it was a game
changer.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150441 (11:56):
I know many of us have seen those
photos of Ike with thoseparatroopers before they take
out.
Personal visit he made withthem.
Mm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (12:06):
as an analyst rather than a family
member, because I, I still amvery much compartmentalized.,
Mom and dad, but I'm very movedby that.
So, you know, these were theairborne troops that he'd been
told by his commander, We'regonna be eviscerated and
recommended that they not beused.
(12:26):
But despite that, he went outand he looked these young men in
the eyes,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (12:30):
hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (12:31):
and I don't know how many commanders
do that these days when they intheir own minds that they are
sending possibly anextraordinarily large proportion
of these young men to theirdeaths.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (12:42):
hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (12:43):
Um, I, I just don't know where he
got that internal strength,except that it was his duty to
make this decision and he did itto the best of his ability he
was prepared to live with theconsequences and to take full
and sole responsibility shouldit end in failure.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1504 (13:02):
And I'm sure that our listeners know
the, the in case of failure,note story that he had prepared
that day on D Day just in caseit didn't happen.
And then the, the took theresponsibility upon himself if
that had happened.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (13:13):
Well, yes.
And, and let's, okay.
So just to put it in starkestterms, he was actually taking
full responsibility for theweather forecast.
I mean, he was Also acceptingthe fact that he might have made
the wrong judgment about whetherto deploy the troops that day or
not.
There aren't many people whowant to have their career
determined by what the weatherforecast is.
(13:36):
And to know that if the weatherforecast isn't what it was
predicted to be, that you aregoing to accept the fact that
you deserve to be sent down fromyour job.
I should say one thing about theweather forecast, too, is that
not everybody on the weatherteam agreed with the forecast.
So that made another one ofthose variables know, a source
of, enormous concern.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (13:57):
Yeah.
Just incredible stress.
And so let's skip forward a bit.
Um, post war, he initially saidhe was not going to run for the
presidency.
And, but then of course he doesmake a successful run in 1952.
What was behind that change?
From the earlier determinationto his eventual running and
winning.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (14:17):
Well, if you think about it, there's a
fair distance of time betweenthe end of the war in 1945 and
running in 1952.
And he was under a lot ofpressure, even as early as 1944,
to run for, president becausehe'd already commanded
successful operations in NorthAfrica and Italy, et cetera.
(14:39):
I mean, I should say in Sicilyand he thought it was absurd for
anybody to suggest a, he run forpresident and be the, he would
even consider, well, you know,the war hadn't even been won.
Well, he at least says in hisdiary that he doesn't think
being a soldier, even at thevery top of the chain of command
is necessarily a qualificationfor the presidency.
(15:02):
And the other thing is, I thinkit's worth noting is that of
the, military officers, theydidn't vote in elections.
The tradition was you servedyour country and you didn't
vote.
Yeah.
So one of the reasons he wasunder so much pressure after the
war is the Democrats andRepublicans couldn't figure out
what political party he wasassociated with.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (15:25):
Right.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (15:26):
So they both came calling, both
parties did, and in one veryinteresting exchange, and I'm
sure given your extensiveexperience, the presidential
archives, piece of this, HarryTruman's letter to Dwight
Eisenhower of volunteering tostep down for the presidency to
(15:46):
make way for Dwight Eisenhoweris, it's an extraordinary
letter.
Of course, Eisenhower, at thatin 48, uh, declined to do that
and didn't even want to do it in1952, particularly when Truman
again made that offer for thesecond time.
Um, But I think one of thereasons Eisenhower and Truman
didn't get along so well lateris that Truman was upset that
(16:11):
when Eisenhower was finallypersuaded to do it, that he ran
as a Republican and not aDemocrat.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (16:17):
hmm.
Well, we know he, he did run asa Republican successfully.
And as you looked at those twoterms as president what did you
take away as lessons learnedfrom his way of making decisions
or planning as the chiefexecutive?
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (16:32):
Well, I think the thing that stands
out most for most people as theyears went on.
Is that there was a lot offeeling that he'd spent a lot of
time on the golf course andwasn't paying attention to what
was going on.
it's worth saying that he hadsome illnesses during his
presidency.
He had a heart attack, forinstance, and that made people
(16:52):
wonder whether he was really onthe job.
I will say, and we discoveredcertainly when he ran again in
1956, he still had all of hismarbles.
So this was a setback and hewasn't sure he was going to run
for a second term, but he did.
And a lot of very big andtransformational decisions were
made in his, second term, far asthe principles are concerned.
(17:14):
He was a strategist and, Alan,what I was hoping to do in this
book was to underscore the factthat Dwight Eisenhower, the
general and Dwight Eisenhower,the president was the same
person,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (17:24):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (17:25):
he'd just taken the stars off his
shoulders and, um, relinquishedhis designation as a, general,
he became a civilian.
But he thought about politicalproblems the same way he thought
about military strategy in away.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (17:39):
Mm hmm.
Well,
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (17:44):
you know, if you're holding
classified information and youropposition is acting like you
don't know what you're doing.
Tough luck.
You know, there was also the wayhe treated people.
He had many, many devotedassociates and he liked to
surround himself with people whohad differing ideas.
So he loved the pushback.
(18:06):
he loved hearing, all sides ofthe argument because he thought
that that helped him fill insome strategic gaps in his own
thinking.
And he used to say to hiscabinet members, get this, they
used to have a cabinet meetingonce a week and, and the
president had a press conferenceonce a week, too, he would say
(18:27):
to them, make your case, makeyour case to me.
And this is very similar to, howhe fulfilled his
responsibilities during WorldWar II.
with, by the way a group ofcommanders who were only too
ready to tell him what theythought.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (18:45):
that shows a real strength of
character to be able to hearthose differing opinions and not
just want to hear your opinionpared it back to you.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (18:51):
Well, look, in his view, there was too
much at stake.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (18:54):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (18:55):
This wasn't about ego.
This is about making the bestdecision um, with an array of
unattractive, you know,alternatives.
By the time decisions get up tothat level, and you know this
from your extraordinary work,Um, all, all of the tough ones
are left for the top.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (19:14):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (19:15):
If it was easy to sort out, it was
done at lower levels long ago.
And so you're faced withusually, uh, an array of
decisions that are allcomplicated, uh, have long
histories.
And as a matter of fact, I sayto people today, you have to
understand the context of ourtimes in order to make the right
(19:36):
decision.
Because just because we don'tremember something doesn't mean
that another country.
has forgotten it too.
Yes,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (19:44):
that knowledge of history, and we
were talking a bit about thatbefore we went on the air here
that, uh, That we sometimes losein this country, I'm afraid, but
we are the American poters aretrying our best to help with, of
having that background ofunderstanding, uh, that context
and that perspective, I think isinvaluable and absolutely
important.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (20:03):
it is.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1504 (20:04):
So, Ike wrote that quote, only the
promises of the extreme rightand extreme left, he feared that
only those would be heard inpublic places.
So how did he take on thechallenge of those extremes,
those extreme voices with whatwas called his middle way?
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31 (20:21):
Right, he loved that concept of the
middle way, and he also made thepoint that crafting the middle
way was a harder job than beingan extremist on either side of
the political spectrum.
Because it required, um,conciliation.
It required personal diplomacy.
It required finding commonground.
It, required making compromise.
(20:44):
Because his view was that middleway was where the progress was
going to be made, not on theextremes because the extremes
were out for kind of maximalistvictory.
And, we look back on that time.
Many people tell me, oh, thatwas such a placid, wonderful
time.
Well, actually,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (21:02):
Right.
Mm hmm.
Wow.
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (21:06):
was just a different set of
objectives that he was going tofind the middle.
So one thing that I thought wasreally interesting is that out
of an eight year presidency, sixof those years, Congress was
controlled by the other party.
And despite that, he got 80percent of his legislative
agenda through Congress.
(21:26):
And there was a lot of hard workin that.
That meant that the speaker andthe majority leader, that was
Sam Rayburn, of course, andLyndon Johnson, uh, were invited
to the White House regularly fora scotch on Friday evening to
shoot the breeze.
And, uh, he was constantlyinviting Democrats and
Republicans to have lunch andbreakfast with him.
(21:47):
And if they called the WhiteHouse, they got put straight
through.
And, you know, there's a lot ofwork involved in all of this.
And I think we've sort of takento social media these days as a
way to, of the energy and thecommitment it takes to actually
forming real relationships.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (22:06):
That, uh, that is so vitally
important.
For several years, I worked withSenator Howard Baker, and he had
that same kind of comment thatin his time in the Senate, it
was so important, those personalrelationships, not just
meetings, but things likesoftball games or, or having a
drink and being able to affectgood public policy in that way.
And yeah,
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (22:28):
It's, and I understood this is that
it's very easy to demonizepeople,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (22:34):
mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_0 (22:34):
especially if you haven't met their wives
and children.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (22:38):
Yeah.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (22:39):
so, my grandmother used to say when
she had a state dinner or somekind of big official reception,
she made it very clear from thebeginning, she didn't want to
know what political partyanybody came from.
And there was going to be noinviting to the White House of,
campaign supporters singled outas being somebody special.
This was going to be you know, amix of Washington.
(23:00):
Also, Ike had so called Stagdinners, of course, you would
never call it that these days,but because of where we were in
our history, there were not alot of women.
He had a couple of cabinet whoare women, but generally
speaking, these were people fromaround the country and he would
select them, Democrats andRepublicans, industrialists and
everybody else to come to theWhite House for a dinner and,
(23:23):
Tell them how life looked tothem.
Um, he gained a lot from, youknow, just understanding other
people's views.
I'd like to say one more timethat that's exactly what he did
during the war.
He used to go out to GIencampments and go into the
kitchens to find out what theywere eating and to check the
pots and pans and to make sure.
(23:43):
You know, uh, that their livingaccommodations were decent.
He thought all those things wereequally important in the
campaign for, um, to that war toan end.
And you might say that was partof his strategy for making
progress in America.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (23:59):
Now, as you said, that the 1950s were
most definitely not placid.
There were so many things goingon, and one of those was facing
Senator Joseph McCarthy and hisallegations, uh, the present in
the past has faced somecriticism for not taking him on
perhaps more vigorously, butthat analysis has certainly been
undergoing revision.
How did you find that?
I, in his own way, effectivelycountered the extremism of
(24:21):
McCarthy.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (24:22):
Well, you know, I think this is a
wonderful example of Ike styleof leadership.
because first of all.
was awkward.
Um, Senator McCarthy was amember of his own party.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (24:33):
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (24:34):
he, took to accusing everybody, uh,
being a communist pretty much.
All kinds of great publicfigures that we know about, um,
from that period of history,like Ralph Bunche, and other
great figures were all accusedby Senator McCarthy of
something, and I believe that,uh, McCarthy never had a Full
litigated success.
(24:56):
He was a demagogue that for hisday was the equivalent of a
social media superstar.
And Ike suspected that what hewanted more than anything else,
Joseph McCarthy, was attention.
So Ike's theory about that isthat if you're opposing somebody
or if you're in a battle whatyou try to do is deprive the
(25:16):
quote unquote enemy.
Of what they want.
Um, and if McCarthy wantedattention, Dwight Eisenhower is
not going to give it to him.
there were plenty of people inthe White House who said, you
know, you're making a mistake,you've got a bully pulpit, you
need to get up on the bullypulpit and, put this guy in his
place and Eisenhower told himthey were nuts.
Um, he said I'm not going to getinto the gutter with that guy.
(25:40):
I'm not going to let him start acontroversial debate with the
president of the United Statesbecause that's the level at
which he wishes to work.
So he used his time and energyon McCarthy instead by trying to
persuade his own party tocensure, Senator McCarthy, who,
you know, Of course, the, uh,the White House couldn't censure
McCarthy.
(26:00):
It would have to be his owncontemporaries in the Senate.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (26:04):
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (26:04):
Um, I, I wonder if you'd just let me
read something,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_ (26:07):
Please.
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (26:08):
about McCarthy, it's rather funny.
Ike writes, only a short sightedor completely inexperienced
individual would urge the use ofthe office of the presidency to
give an opponent the publicityhe so avidly desires.
Um, so the thing is, is that byRefusing to give McCarthy, the
(26:30):
proper standing that McCarthywanted.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (26:33):
Yes.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (26:33):
you know, the thing finally just
sort of faded away.
I would say that McCarthy'smistake was probably to accuse
members of the military, peoplewho'd
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (26:45):
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31 (26:45):
during World War II, to accuse them of
being communists.
and then, they really ramped itup and Eisenhower finally
through back channels,convinced, his own political
party to censure McCarthy in.
was the end of it.
But what a chapter.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (27:00):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01 (27:01):
principle of don't give them what they
want.
And by the way, um, attention isvery very potent.
So you get in an argument with aguy like this and the news media
loves it because it'scontroversial.
a human interest story.
And before you know it, you, youcan't control the events that
follow from that.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (27:20):
Yeah.
Well, that, that clearheadstrategic view of things that
Ike showed there, how did hisactions reflect that?
In the SUEZ crisis?
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2025 (27:31):
I think this is a really
interesting story, the SuezCrisis, because it, uh, happens
in 1956, just going into, the reelection campaign, and, uh,
Eisenhower already had a bigenough decision to make, which
was related to his own health.
Whether or not he was going torun for a second term because he
had suffered but recovered froma heart attack.
(27:52):
and he decided to run again andwe don't have time to get into
that decision, but it was not.
long after that decision thatthings begin to turn into a
crisis in the Middle East again,the context for this story is
our larger events, which, besummed up in a simple sentence
(28:14):
that.
After World War II the Britishwere beginning to lose their
hold on the empire, and, uh, aswe know in India things had
already shaken loose, and thencoming into the 1950s the
Egyptian president Nasser comesto power, and there are
struggles around what's left ofthe empire and one of, of
(28:36):
course, the most pointed areasis the Suez Canal, actually,
this has incredible resonancefor today in an interesting way.
The British we're claiming,ownership.
Or at least, uh, some standingto remain in charge of the Suez
Canal.
And Nasser pushed very hard.
(28:56):
He pushed so hard, by the way,he even recognized communist
China and other things.
So there were feelings by somein the West that, he was part of
the communist movement.
But the Eisenhoweradministration did an assessment
and according to internationallaw, Certainly, Great Britain
and other colonial powersmanaged the canal, but they
(29:18):
didn't own it, and that thecanal actually belonged to
Egypt.
And this is what creates thecrisis, or the beginning of the
crisis.
For me, what was interestingabout this whole story was
simply that our wartime alliesin World War II ganged on the
United States of America,secretly, including Israel, that
(29:39):
had just been founded.
and those three countriesdecided, that they were going to
overthrow Nasser and they paidlip service to Eisenhower's
ideas about, trying to moderateand take care of this crisis
diplomatically because thepresident did not want the
Soviet Union to intervene.
(30:00):
Okay.
Well, anyway, to make a rathercolorful story This is all going
on literally in the last days ofthe campaign.
As a matter of fact, Eisenhowerdidn't even get to campaign
headquarters, until the partywas practically over because he
was on the phone still workingon the Suez crisis.
(30:20):
Uh, he did not campaign duringthat time.
I mean this wasn't a basementstrategy.
This was, he was on the phone.
Threatening
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (30:28):
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (30:29):
his former wartime allies with
repudiating what they were doingonce their duplicity
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_ (30:36):
Mm-hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01- (30:37):
evident.
Um, so the principle of that oneis, which I think is,
interesting and deserves greaterdebate within the United States
of America.
he, I'm going to paraphrasethis, but he basically said.
As long as we have one rule forour friends and our allies one
rule for everyone else.
(30:57):
will never be peace.
In other words, he believed in,uh, rule of law, and you
couldn't have international lawand then make special exceptions
for your
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150441 (31:08):
I see.
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (31:08):
And, You know, actually his speech to
the nation on the Suez crisis isone of the great classics.
but, um, has been a rule thathas been very, very hard for us
to accept.
So I would just close thisquestion by saying.
After World War II, I mean,everybody who was involved at
his level, and even the peoplewho bravely and heroically
(31:32):
fought, nobody wanted to see waragain, number one.
Number two, nuclear weapons,including the hydrogen bomb,
changed everything, so the worldcouldn't afford to have another
war.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (31:44):
Mm-hmm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (31:45):
that ends up being the overriding
principle that then, you know,reveals to the world that he
recognizes that you can't haverule for one group and one rule
for everyone else, that therewon't be peace unless we have
one world under, the UnitedNations, where it came to these
(32:05):
kinds of issues.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (32:07):
Well, let's turn to the domestic scene
from that.
So there are principles that heapplied domestically as well,
including in his approach tocivil rights.
So what were those principles?
Uh, that guided him, includinghis decision, very important
decision, to send troops toLittle Rock to enforce the
Supreme Court's ruling on schooldesegregation.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (32:28):
Yeah, well, I think this is one area
to your point, Alan, earlierabout, scholars are re
evaluating this area.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (32:35):
hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01- (32:35):
scholars didn't look very hard in the
past, if you want my personalopinion, because he's got it
written all over his earlyspeeches, both in his inaugural
address and also in his State ofthe Union addresses, that his
strategy for civil rights was todesegregate everything the
federal government controlled.
And that's what he did by theend of his presidency.
(32:57):
Uh, he desegregated, Washington,D.
C.
He put Supreme Court judges onthe bench who were anti
segregation and brought aboutBrown versus Board of Education,
which was the Supreme Courtfinding that called for the
integration of schools, etcetera.
And he also desegregated thearmed forces, uh, even after the
(33:19):
Truman presidential degree, notmuch progress had been made on
that.
I think I mentioned that hedesegregated Washington, D.
C.
The point is, is that he had astrategy all right, but I, I
liken this strategy to the D Daystrategy, that is his chief
objective was to make sure thathis troops didn't get thrown
back into the sea.
(33:40):
That he established a beachheadand in civil rights, that's what
he did.
He established a beachhead.
If the federal governmentdesegregates everything it
controls, then this isn'tsomething that can be
overturned.
The rest of it, which obviouslywas much more complicated as we
saw in the late fifties and theninto the sixties and onwards.
(34:01):
Was the attitude of the stategovernments governor Faubus from
Arkansas was talking out of bothsides of his mouth about
complying with a Brown versusboard of education.
He had obligations to sendforward a plan on desegregation
of the schools in Arkansas andsaid he was going to do it and
he didn't do it.
(34:21):
And I didn't like that at
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (34:23):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (34:24):
Um, and was going to enforce the law
of the land in the UnitedStates.
So often people say to me, wasDwight Eisenhower serious about,
civil rights?
And I, I like to say, do youknow who we sent to usher those
kids into their class, thosenine American students into
their classrooms at Central HighSchool in Little Rock, Arkansas,
(34:46):
the 101st Airborne Division.
And you know who they were?
They did D Day.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (34:50):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (34:52):
Day.
Uh, this was a serious thing.
He didn't believe that you doanything in a quiet, half
hearted way, because if you doit, people question your
sincerity.
So that was, um, make no mistakeabout it kind of a move.
There was a lot of work still tobe done, but it's also
interesting that he supportedKennedy's civil rights
(35:15):
legislation and made it clear toa number of Republicans that if
they didn't support LyndonJohnson's civil rights measures,
uh, that he would be voting forJohnson.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (35:25):
hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2025 (35:26):
I think many people also don't
understand, I should just throwthat in there that he passed the
first civil rights legislationsince Reconstruction in 1957.
So it's quite a record,actually.
I think the fact is, again,didn't use a bully pulpit in a
way that frustrated some people.
And part of the reason was, isthat he had to find language
(35:48):
that made it impossible for theSouth to disagree.
he argued for civil rightsaround rule of law.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (35:57):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (35:58):
And it was a less satisfying way to
argue it, but the South had norebuttal to it.
Had it gotten a lot morepersonal about, uh, how immoral
you are or how outrageous it is,it would have only stiffened
their spine.
That was his theory.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1504 (36:14):
I'm glad our eyes are opening to
that as well, and seeing betterthe moves he made during the
administration that were sopositive that, uh, That often we
haven't heard about in the pastand that includes in civil
rights, but I want to turn nowto something I think about a lot
every day because of my day job,I run a couple of science
museums in Tennessee and, and,uh, we, we talk a lot about
Sputnik launched by the Sovietsand in 1957, when you looked at,
(36:37):
uh, at the president's reactionto the launch of Sputnik.
What did that reveal to youabout his character and about
his goals?
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (36:44):
And I'm just smiling here because I,
I read that the Chinese, um,revelation that they could
produce an AI tool that wascheaper and every bit as
powerful as what we've produced.
Uh, causes panic, a panic in oursystem, and they call it now,
this is our Sputnik moment.
(37:05):
Well, you know, it didn'tactually quite unfold quite
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (37:07):
Yeah, right, right.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (37:09):
in the 1950s.
The thing is, is that we knewthe Soviet Union was going to be
launching, uh, artificialsatellites into space.
And why do we know that?
Because we had an agreement withthe Soviet Union that both the
United States and the SovietUnion would be launching such
satellites in 1957.
The 1957.
As part of internationalgeophysical year, which was a
(37:31):
scientific year for exploration.
And so what was a littledisingenuous about the panic
around Sputnik was that theSoviet scientists were actually
in Washington, D.
C.
days before Sputnik waslaunched, talking to their
counterparts, Americancounterparts, about the
launching of Sputnik.
Sputnik.
(37:51):
and it was on the front page ofthe New York Times and other
things which I, of course, quotein my book and, um, as soon as
it happened, actually peoplewent, Oh, my, isn't that
something?
But it was really tempting goinginto a midterm election.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (38:05):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-3 (38:06):
Really, really tempting to say, you
know, the United States wascaught by surprise.
Now the question probablyremains, was it a good idea that
the United States let the SovietUnion go first?
Because we did have a way tocreate rocket technology that
would have beat the Soviets hadwe opted to do that.
But now know from the archivesand, and other things that it
(38:29):
was a decision of theadministration.
let them go first simply becausethey would accidentally
establish the legal precedent offree access to space.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (38:40):
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (38:41):
In jet overflights.
We have the sovereignty of ourairspace, right?
But, uh, there had been no legalprecedent about low earth orbit
or anything beyond that.
And this established thatprinciple.
Had we been first, the SovietUnion might well have said, Oh
my gosh, this is an act of war.
Uh, that's what they did overthe U 2 program which were
(39:03):
overflights over the SovietUnion.
it's a little more complicated,but here's the bottom line.
It's intriguing, for me as ananalyst and a foreign policy
type, intriguing that, strategyrequired, Um, standing back and
demonstrating a kind ofrestraint, even political
(39:26):
restraint, understanding thatthe benefit would be way better
later.
So in the meantime, we'redeveloping reconnaissance
satellites that were ready togo.
And, we ended up being the luckyones in all of this.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (39:41):
Real strength and integrity on
display under a lot of stress.
He took up painting, though,while he was in the White House.
Did he take that up because ofthe stress?
What, what led him to thathobby?
Yeah.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (39:54):
it's interesting.
Winston Churchill, uh, was apainter, and Winston Churchill
was very excited about paintinglandscapes he talked about his
painting a lot.
As a matter of fact, I rememberas a kid, Grandad had just been
given a painting by WinstonChurchill, and Ike said, Well,
I'm going to have to ask Winstonhow he gets his water to look
like that.
(40:15):
so it's very cute, but I mean,during the war, a lot of people
did paint for relaxation.
So after the war generalEisenhower at this point now,
uh, president of Columbiauniversity, took up painting
because his own portrait painterencouraged him, to do it as a
way to kind of relax and enjoy.
something that is completelyunrelated to world events.
(40:38):
So Grandad started actually justafter the war and he got to be
pretty good.
For your listeners there, theymight really enjoy Googling
Eisenhower's painting of WinstonChurchill, which is really quite
an extraordinary piece of work.
And, the other interesting oneis Dwight Eisenhower's painting
of, Field Marshal Montgomery,um, you know, one of his
(40:59):
subordinates who was a verychallenging figure.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (41:03):
Yeah.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (41:04):
Shall we say, uh, but he did paint the
portraits of most of his wartimesubordinates.
I mean at the Shafe level andShafe being headquarters,
Supreme Allied Headquarters.
And then he took to paintingportraits for people like
Princess Anne of Princess Royaltoday, who is, uh, King Charles
the Third's sister and he gavethem to Queen Elizabeth the
(41:27):
Second, who he had known sinceshe was a young girl, um, so he
used it as a way to um, saythank you and to let people know
that he had spent a lot of timethinking about them.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (41:38):
And, as I was telling you before we
started taping, I was directorof the George W.
Bush library and he took uppainting as well, George W.
Bush did, and, uh, he alsopainted portraits, a lot of
them, a lot of them foreignleaders as well that we put on
display there.
I must admit for PresidentEisenhower, I've seen his
landscapes, but never hisportraits.
So I'm going to look those up aswell, uh, right after this.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (41:59):
Alan, I think his portraits were
better and I think that'sbecause he was more interested
in people than landscapes.
But there, there's another thinghere too, is that, he didn't
feel the same way WinstonChurchill did about his
paintings.
He says, oh, these are daubs andI'm only doing it to relax and
look at a scene in a differentway, but he did a lot of those
landscapes from postcards.
(42:19):
And this wasn't paint bynumbers.
He actually painted them, but hedidn't think they were any big
deal.
Once when there was anexhibition in New York of his
paintings, he said to somebodywho said, Now why did you paint
it this way?
And he says, listen, this stuffis just, you know, this is my
hobby.
It wouldn't even be hanging onthe walls if I hadn't been
president of the United States.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (42:39):
Well, yeah, I, I still think you had a
great talent.
I always, uh, President Bushwould get mad.
He would say, people can do thisif you try.
I cannot.
And, uh, when I left,
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-2 (42:49):
club here.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (42:49):
right, right, right.
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (42:54):
did give him relaxation and in the
research for this book, I justlove the fact that he says to
his secretary, Anne Whitman, hesays, look out over, he's
sitting in the oval office andhe instructs her to look out the
window and he says, how manyshades of green do you see in
that scene?
And what an interesting metaphorfor the president of the United
(43:15):
States, you know, and he waspainting, by the way, during his
presidency, um, to, uh, that's ametaphor for, think of how many
shades of complexity there areto this issue,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (43:26):
Yes.
Yes.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-3 (43:27):
anyway, I did not get any part of that
DNA, none, so, I've beenridiculed by my children, by the
way, for my lack of talent, so,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1504 (43:36):
Oh, no.
We have talents in other ways,Susan.
That's
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (43:39):
well, I hope so.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (43:40):
right.
So how I glad you talk about somany amazing character traits,
principles that guide itPresident Eisenhower, which of
those do you most wish that allof our future American leaders
would possess?
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (43:57):
well, um, maybe if I'm allowed to, I
would say, first of all, therestraint makes it possible to
do a deeper analysis of whypeople do what they do.
I remember, uh, there are acertain number of dinner table
lessons that, we were subjectto, whether we wanted to hear
them or not.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (44:17):
Yeah.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (44:18):
uh, one of them was how do you think
it looks to the other guy?
Now, this sometimes is calledstrategic empathy, but it's not
always about empathy.
I mean, you can't be makingdecisions, in a war like the
European theater in World WarII, or even in the Far East.
without a really carefulassessment of what the
(44:38):
preconceived ideas are of theother side.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15044 (44:41):
Mm
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (44:42):
Um, it's just that you can't really
do much in life that relates togetting results without thinking
through methodically what'sgoing to work and how do you
know what's going to work unlessyou know how it looks to your
counterparts,
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (44:56):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (45:00):
and so I wish we did more of that
because, uh, I've been in theforeign policy field pretty much
my whole career.
I hear people say all the time,I don't know why they did that.
And I want to say, I do, uh,look at it from their point of
view.
And that doesn't mean that youhave to give into it.
just that you might be verysurprised by what they do next.
(45:22):
If you haven't done an analysisof that kind, on the personal
level.
There's a wonderful scene in thebook where this little boy is on
stage with General Eisenhowerand he's receiving some award
and his little knees areknocking and Ike goes over to
him and says to the little boy,he said, would you hold my hand?
He, this is General
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1504 (45:42):
Oh,
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (45:43):
well, my hand, I'm nervous and the
little boy looked up and hesaid, are you nervous?
I'm nervous too.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_1 (45:50):
That's amazing.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31- (45:51):
Yeah, well, I'm just saying that it's
one of those principles, right,that I think would be helpful.
And I would just say, inconclusion that we're all
neighbors and we're all membersof this one big, wonderful
country.
And if we started looking ateach other like neighbors again,
uh, it might do a lot too.
(46:11):
Reduce tensions that seem tohave overtaken us.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150441 (46:15):
I have faith that we will, um,
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-202 (46:17):
Me too.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (46:18):
well, what's next for you, Susan?
What are you working on rightnow?
Well,
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (46:25):
uh, another book idea.
I've got about half of one inthe can, but I don't think the
timing's quite right.
And get this, it's going torequire, yes, more source notes.
I must say there are days when Ithink, you know, a trashy novel
is in my future, but to be quitefrank about this I'm afraid I'm
too serious to even know how todo that.
(46:46):
So.
this'll be maybe something,slightly different, but, I found
long ago that if you talk aboutthe next project it's sure that
it'll never happen.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_150 (46:57):
when it does happen, we'd love to
have you back on American POTUS.
A real pleasure and honor tospeak with you today.
susan-eisenhower_1_01-31-20 (47:02):
no, it was my, my pleasure and
honor.
And thank you for all you have,you know, done, uh, these
valuable museums, because Ireally, really recommend to
everybody a chance to go seethese presidential libraries and
science museums and everythingelse.
They are among the very greatestassets this country has.
alan-lowe_1_01-31-2025_15 (47:21):
Well, thank you for that, Susan.
Thank you so much.
And I want to thank everyone forlistening and for your support
of American POTUS.
You know, we are a 501c3nonprofit dedicated to providing
educational and civildiscussions of the presidents
and the presidency.
So we thank everyone for yoursupport.
And I encourage you also tocheck out American FLOTUS.
(47:41):
The podcast American POTUS isproducing in partnership with
the First Ladies Association forResearch and Education, or
FLAIR.
You can find American FLOTUSepisodes at AmericanPOTUS.
org, FLAIR net.
org, or on your favorite podcastplatform.
So thanks so much, and I'll seeyou next time on American POTUS.
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