November 9, 2025 • 44 mins
What happens when you pack a bag, buy a ticket, and bet everything on yourself?
In this episode, Nico Pisani, founder of White Canvas and Loop3, shares how one bold month in New York transformed his mindset, business, and approach to risk. From humble beginnings in Argentina to building two successful agencies, Nico’s story is a testament to action over perfection and the lessons that only failure and courage can teach.
Key Takeaways
- Why sometimes taking action without a plan is the fastest path to clarity and opportunity
- The hidden danger of growing too fast
- How learning through failure builds wisdom you’ll carry forever
- The importance of saying no to stay aligned with your bigger vision
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Russel (00:01):
Welcome to An Agency Story podcast where owners and
experts share the real journey,the early struggles, the
breakthrough moments, andeverything in between.
I'm your host Russel Dubree,former eight figure agency
owner, turn Business coach.
Sold my agency and now helpsagency leaders create their
ideal business.
Every agency has a story, andthis is your front row seat.
(00:23):
This is an agency story.
Welcome to the show todayeveryone.
I have Nico Pisani with WhiteCanvas and Loop3 with us here
today.
Thank you so much for being onthe show today, Nico.
Hey Russell, thanks for havingme.
(00:44):
I am excited to have aconversation.
So I guess, if you don't mind,tell us what White Canvas and
Loop three does and then we'll,we'll get to some stuff for
sure.
Nico (00:54):
So, uh, white Canvas and Loop three are two siblings
agencies at White Canvas.
We do.
WordPress development foragencies, uh, top agencies in in
the us.
So basically what we do is wehelp them in times of work
overload.
They send us the Figma files andthey can expect, uh, high-end
quality WordPress custom theme,uh, delivered to them.
(01:16):
And in loop three, we develop.
Custom solutions softwaresolutions for venture capitals,
like huge venture capitals wouldneed to make sense of their data
and reach some informationautomate some processes, create
custom tools.
So for instance, uh, last weekwe created an integration with
(01:37):
an LLM and a lot of databasesfor them to be able to speak
with their data in naturallanguage and not needing a data
analytics for that.
Russel (01:46):
Okay, well, we're gonna dig into, I mean, it's hard
enough to run one agency now.
You, you got two under yourbelt, but we're gonna find out
about more about what that lookslike here in a little bit.
But, we'll start earlier in yourjourney and work to that.
And you are from a verybeautiful land from far, far
away from me anyway.
(02:07):
Tell us about young Nico.
Where are you from?
Let's
Nico (02:11):
Sure.
So, well, I'm from Argentina,Buenos Aires.
Uh, so yeah, a bit southern, uh,from you guys.
Uh, and, uh, young Nico wasalways an entrepreneur.
I consider myself anentrepreneur about everything,
so I was always.
Curious about buildingbusinesses, doing stuff.
So I started really young at inhigh school selling PlayStations
(02:33):
too, in like the eBay equivalenthere in Argentina, digging my
first steps as an entrepreneur.
There.
It was not a really goodbusiness model.
I think like only sold likethree or four, PlayStation two,
but for a 15 year olds old wasgood enough.
So, uh, right after high schoolI had to start doing something
and my dad said, alright, like,while you study, you come and
(02:55):
work for me at my law firm.
He has like a small practicearound.
Three employees.
So, I mean, were you excited
Russel (03:03):
about that?
Like when Dad says with me, no,not at all.
Like,
Nico (03:06):
I didn't wanna do that, but I had to pay my bills, my
own things.
Like I, I was still living withhim, so like the bills were not
huge, but I still need somemoney to go out with my friends
and do stuff.
Fair.
So I was there, I remember beingthere, sitting in the chair
doing random things like, andlooking at the clock.
Watching the, the secondsticking and hopefully like one,
(03:28):
one time to go home.
So I think like a year in orwhatever he hired someone to
create the website for thepractice.
And naturally I was the.
Kind of, not project manager,but like basically trying to get
all the information to give tothe developer.
It was like a freelancedeveloper and sending over, I'm
(03:50):
doing that stuff.
And to be honest, the processwas awful and the result was
even worse.
So at some point I say, Hey dad,like.
I'll do this for you.
And just to recap a bit, I wasbeing nerdy in terms of, I
always like to code.
I did some games when I was athigh school okay.
Stuff.
Okay, that makes more sense.
So it was, yeah, I was walking.
This was not uncharted territory
Russel (04:11):
for you.
Nico (04:11):
Yeah, no, I, I was always into computers, but I, I've
never developed a website.
I say how hard it could be.
So I started digging around anddiscover there that I really
enjoy that.
So in that process.
I said, alright, if this guy ismaking probably the same amount
of money that I'm making workinga month here, like I should
(04:33):
definitely do the same.
So.
Right there after developing thesite which it was decent.
It was better than thefreelancer developer.
Like, looking back, it wasprobably not so good, but still
the first shot.
So, uh, what with that, I sayall like, I, I'm gonna quit.
I'm gonna go, full-time intothis.
I'm gonna learn as fast as I canthis, because I really enjoy
(04:53):
this.
So I did that high quit.
And, and start learning as fastas I could.
How to develop websites andstart pinging all my network and
saying, Hey guys, I'm doingwebsite.
Like who wanna hire me?
Uh, and at some point there was,uh, another guy from my high
school who was doing design forwebsites and I told him, Hey,
I'm doing websites I liked, likethat part of things you are
(05:16):
designing stuff.
If you ever have a project, letme know.
And he did have a project, sothat was like my first.
Paying project, which was notactually my dad.
So probably that was like at 19years old.
Okay.
So that's when I started likedoing the freelance business.
Russel (05:35):
Okay.
So, okay.
So you've basically been anentrepreneur since, well, since,
since you graduated school.
Nico (05:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And in the meantime I alwayshad, uh, do you know love socks
there, like the bean bags thatyou have?
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Somewhere between thePlayStation two and the
websites.
I tried to create a copycathere, and I still have one like
walkie we'd call it here in myoffice.
So.
I probably only sold two ofthose, like one to my dad and
(06:02):
one to myself or whatever.
Oh, that's funny.
It was fun.
Russel (06:06):
What was your inspiration like?
Why that as a product?
I mean that seems quite adeparture, like you said, a tech
guy and, and all that.
Nico (06:13):
Uh, to be honest, as I was saying, like I consider myself
an entrepreneur, so I got reallyexcited about.
New stuff.
So I probably was watchingYouTube or whatever.
I saw these bean bags were hugeand amazing and say like, well,
that's something cool to do.
I, we don't have this inArgentina, so I definitely
should copy that.
So I figured it out.
(06:34):
I, I do it, but it was likesuper expensive to produce.
They were big.
It was like the audience was,yeah, it was hard to sell and I
had no experience.
I probably quit.
Way too quickly.
Probably if I would push a bitmore, I would've been able to
sell some.
But, but yeah, like you, I wastrying to start something, but
then, you know, when things geta bit complicated, I was tend to
(06:55):
quit.
So, uh, those, the firststartups were hard for me.
Uh,
Russel (07:00):
I'm sure you learned some good things from the
beanbag, uh, yeah.
Entrepreneur journey and so,yeah.
All right.
So you're doing the freelancerthing.
And I mean, when would you sayyou went from freelancer to
being an actual agency?
Nico (07:13):
So I think I freelanced for around three years or so.
I was doing.
One side every other month orwhatever was good enough for me
to be able to to pay my bills.
Uh, did you still live with yourdad?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, in between.
I went to live with mygirlfriend at at least little
(07:35):
remote town in cor, which islike, have you seen the cars
movie?
Uh, right here on, right here,Springs.
So you can think about that.
It was like these one main road.
A lot of shops there.
And I was there with, trying tosell websites and actually that
was an in-between, betweenfreelancing and agency.
But it was like, I thinksomething cool for me, which is
(07:58):
like, I was there trying to sellwebsites.
People there like, they don'tneed a website because it was
like a super small town.
So I say, what if I create alisting for these little town,
like.
So I spin up our WordPresspretty quickly and when I win my
iPad, I can start knocking ondoors and hey, say, Hey, I'm
creating this listing.
I can take a couple of picturesof your shop.
(08:20):
We can put it online at theinformation and people will see
you there and we'll call you.
So I start charging like$50 amonth or whatever to be there.
And I got a lot of clients, so Ibet it was right.
If I go and sell, which I, it'shard to sell because you need to
get out of your comfort zone.
I can get things there.
(08:41):
Okay, so there moving then, atsome point I get back to Buenos
Aires, uh, to a big city inArgentina, and I was, all right,
let's try to get some clients.
How come I stop being afreelance and build a, a bigger
business for myself?
And I had this amazing ideawhere.
There was, Facebook was a thingback then.
(09:04):
And they have these groups whereI was like a designers group
where I come in and my logicwas, if I can find.
Some designers to find work forme, then I can do the coding and
then we can sell a couple ofwebsites.
So I can start an agency withevery designer and then I can
have some flow coming in, whichwas a terrible idea.
(09:25):
But, um,
Russel (09:26):
what you're saying, your, your idea of finding
designers to be referral sourcesfor you?
Nico (09:31):
No, the idea was like, because I started saying, Hey,
let's build an agency together.
So literally I created.
Five agencies in parallel atsome point saying like, we had a
name with the designers andwhatever.
Oh, so it was nuts.
Um.
Not a lot of work came fromthere.
And someplace say like, I'mtrying to sell myself as an
agency, maybe that's not worthit.
(09:53):
And what I should do is like, bemore realistic.
Like, I'm Nico, I'm afreelancer.
I'm someone that you can relyto.
I created a landing page, whichwas Nicolas designing, um, web
designer on web developer.
You can hire me.
I'll never speak in techlanguage or whatever.
So I had a website which had acompelling story, and then it's
(10:15):
like, how do I get people tosee, to watch the website?
So I found a Udemy course aboutGoogle AdWords.
So started learning about GoogleAdWords and with that.
Basically run my first campaignand at the moment I think it was
like 50 bucks a day or whatever,that for me was a lot of money.
(10:36):
So I remember thinking to myselflike, if this doesn't work for
five days or so, like it's gonnahurt.
But I.
Click the play button and startpraying and one hour after I hit
the play button, people startcalling me.
So, wow.
Yeah, I, I started getting a newbusiness and the flow was
(10:57):
getting bigger and bigger, and Ithink like within two weeks I
say, Hey, I need to hire someoneto help me.
And that's when I decided,right, let's stop being a
freelancer and create an agency.
Russel (11:07):
That's fascinating.
I mean that might, you know,I've done a ton of these
interviews now and I cannotthink of someone that really
said their first book of clientscame from running ads.
I mean, existing agencies reallystruggle with that as a lead gen
source.
Like why do you think that waseffective for you?
Nico (11:25):
I think first there are a couple of things probably I
think like the website that Ihad, like being a freelancer and
not trying to oversell likeright there, like I probably was
like 2011 or something likethat, or 2012.
So not trying to oversell myselfas a big agency, but being
genuine about like, Hey, I'mthis guy who it's techie who
(11:46):
knows about websites and can dothis for you.
Was like a really compellingmessage.
Also, I think it was likeanother time where you literally
Google, I need a web designer orwhatever, and then you appear
first.
People click on that and itwork.
Like I tried to replicate thatafterwards a couple of times and
(12:09):
it didn't work anymore for me.
Literally kinda a lot more
Russel (12:11):
crowded, I guess, too, these days than Yeah, it's
crowded.
It's more
Nico (12:14):
expensive.
Um, and yeah.
Russel (12:18):
Yeah.
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
And then, so that was WhiteCanvas.
Yeah.
And I, I know a little bit aboutyour journey and you've evolved
and obviously you've evolvedinto another agency, but you've
gone through the positioningjourney and kind of whitting
down what you were doing.
When did that come about forWhite Canvas?
What spurred you to better lockin on what you do and why you do
(12:40):
it?
Nico (12:41):
Just for context, when I first started White Canvas, I
was 23 years.
Didn't know what I was doing.
I was just going with it andtrying to like sell stuff to
people.
So people would call me and say,Hey, like White Canvas was born
as a Marketing 360 agency, thatwe do everything.
(13:01):
So they will call me and say,Hey, I need a logo.
All right, no problem.
I'll do it for you.
And I had the designer, I needsome social media manager.
Alright, I can do that for you.
And I, at some point I need a.
Software, it was like a webapplication, super complicated
managed talk, whatever.
Yeah, we can handle that.
And so I getting a lot ofprojects that are, were way
(13:24):
outside my wheelhouse.
And at some point I had likearound eight employees different
projects, but I didn't get theeconomics quite well.
So the projects were not superprofitable.
And at that point, WordPressstarted to.
Become like a pattern that itwas repeating on the projects
that were right.
(13:45):
So I decided, all right, let'sremove all the clutter.
Let's try to focus on WordPress.
Let's do these really well andtry to make it profitable.
Because like, to be honest, inthose periods there were like.
Long months where I didn't get apaycheck.
Some, yeah, red numbers.
They're on the balance sheet, soit was like they, they were not
fun.
Russel (14:05):
Yeah, I mean that sounds exactly like the same path that
we did.
I mean, we were web and I'mpretty sure, I'm actually pretty
sure we sold one time somebody,one of our clients was having
trouble with their internet.
We went over to their office tohelp them troubleshoot their
internet.
But yeah, technologies we'reall, you know, we're doing every
call kinds of technologies, netand all the, you know, nuke and
(14:27):
I can't even remember all theones that were around back then.
And then, yeah, we woke up oneday and said.
This is not gonna work.
Yeah.
We can't hire for this.
We can't be profitable.
Uh, clients are not happy.
It's, um, we gotta whittle thisthing down.
Nico (14:40):
It's hard.
I remember one time this guycalling me about, Hey, I need
you to come and fix my printer.
Right?
It's like, not what I do.
And like.
For me, printers have their ownsoul.
So that's where I'm gonna drawthe line.
Isn't that the truth?
Russel (14:54):
That that was, that was your boundary.
I don't do printers, but, uh, uhsure.
I'll change your tire and I'mgonna guess that, right.
One of the things and, you know,talk a lot about it folks, and
you know, it's definitelybecoming more pervasive now that
gotta specialize in some way asan agency.
Uh, but I have yet to talk to anagency that specialized and went
(15:15):
back.
So I imagine, um, I'm gonnaguess that worked out well for
you.
Nico (15:19):
Yeah, uh, definitely it did.
I think it was, uh, the rightpath and right now we are
thinking about expanding a bitmore.
Outside only WordPress, uh, toother technologies.
But only after we were able toget the processes in place and
we know how to replicate thatinto different technologies, but
(15:40):
trying to get everything rightat the very beginning was like a
really cost mistake for us.
And I think it was like, yeah.
Something that was, was not, notthe right choice.
Russel (15:49):
Yeah.
And I think that is, that isvery common and why we end up in
that place, like as an agency iswhat you were talking about
there, right?
Is the product build phase.
Like before we go just launch athing and start selling and
think we're gonna be profitable,it's, we gotta figure out all
the same things we did on thethings that make us specialist
so we, we actually have a viableproduct that we can sell.
And not only sell, but delivereffectively.
(16:12):
I know at some point in yourjourney, you, the words you
might have used were grew toofast.
Um, has this already happenedyet in our discussion, or is
that yet to come?
Nico (16:22):
It did, uh, it did somewhere in between.
Uh, basically it was like I hitthe, the gas on Google AdWords
and I was receiving a lot ofphone calls.
I'm I.
To be honest with you, when Istarted receiving the phone
calls, it's like, all right, Icracked the code.
I'm gonna go volunteer.
Like I'm gonna be a millionairein no time.
So these, I, I already sort thisout.
(16:43):
So I, I was selling like, youneed a website, I'll sell that
to you.
And I was selling, selling,selling, selling.
And at the same time, I neededto do that.
So I started hiring people.
So probably within a year orwhat, I think it was like a year
or so.
From being a freelancer to beinglike an eight people team.
But my numbers were for afreelancing business and I have
(17:05):
a lot of the economics that werenot definitely in place.
So those was one of the, thebigger mistakes I made.
And it was like growing too fastwithout having like solid
foundations in of what I wasdoing.
So.
People will come create awebsite, but then it took like
probably four months and at thattime, in my mind, websites were
(17:26):
taking 30 hours or so.
So it like the, the math wereoff like by all meanings, so
yeah.
So yeah.
Russel (17:34):
Nico, I think you're my agency brother from a different
mother.
I literally remember having thisexact same conversation with my
business partner, I think it wasaround 2008.
And we were like, you know, cameinto the beginning of the year
like, we're gonna blow the socksoff this thing.
We're just gonna sell likewildfire and we're gonna grow
this thing to millions ofdollars along the same basis.
Like, just, just sell everythingand we'll figure it out.
And I mean, that was literally,I think what.
(17:56):
That was probably the mostdangerous words I've ever said
in my life.
And what almost caused theentire, all the wheels to fall
off.
Uh, and the way I always tellfolks is, you know, very lucky
to still have been in businessafter making a lot of bad moves
like that.
So, yeah.
We gotta learn from the schoolof hard knocks, I guess.
Nico (18:13):
Yeah, I think it was, it, it was hard, but it was, it was
good learning that, and I thinklike when you learn with your
own pain, it's, it's somethingthat you'll take forever.
So.
Russel (18:23):
Right on.
Right on.
And then, it sounds like a lotof your early business, I mean,
I, I know at some point youtransitioned to wanting to focus
on a US market.
Um, were you already doing thatat this point or is that coming,
coming later as well?
That,
Nico (18:36):
that was, um, in, in that between, I grew too quickly.
I have these eight people, teammember.
I didn't get the economicsright.
And also the other thing thatstarted to happen, it sat in.
Argentina, we're like arollercoaster in terms of the
economy, so we have ups anddowns all the time, so it's hard
to to project.
So I had these eight peopleworking for me.
(18:59):
A lot of things that were mymistakes, but then a couple of
other things were like.
I was not able to bring as muchwork as I was able to because
the economic was a bit down.
So there I decided like, I don'twanna be depending on the cycles
here in Argentina, so let's tryto focus on growing other
(19:19):
markets.
And I started reviewing, and theUS was one of the.
Spots for me, the time zone,it's like pretty close.
I we're one hour ahead ofEastern time, so it's like, all
right, let's shoot there.
So I started, yeah, trying toget into that market.
So it was like starting fromscratch, you know, like I didn't
like Google ads.
It was not an option for mebecause the cost per click was
(19:41):
wakes like way too expensive forme.
So trying to find other ways toget clients.
Russel (19:48):
Okay.
Like, what did you do?
You wake up one day and said, I,I need to get more US clients.
What, what did you do fromthere?
So,
Nico (19:55):
yeah, that was a process.
Uh, one of the things like, uh,at this time I was at coworking
space.
So, uh, a friend of mine wasdoing this thing called email,
which was the first time that Iwas hearing about it.
So he said, all right, I'm gonnarun some cold email campaign for
you, uh, before.
We screwed it up.
And now cold email, it's hard tosell things with.
(20:18):
So we started doing cold emailand then it's like, all right,
let's do that.
But then I say like, if I'mgonna go to the US market, I
need to go to the us.
So I book a ticket, I go to NewYork and say, I'm gonna go there
for a month and I'm gonna figureit out.
So I remember packing my bags,going there, uh, renting a room
in an Airbnb, uh, an.
(20:40):
New York, it's an expensivecity, but if you're from
Argentina and you have Argentinapesos, it's way more expensive.
So it was like a really big betfor me, uh, but I was determined
to figure that out.
So I remember going there.
And saying, all right, I'm gonnago to a coworking space, meeting
a lot of cool people and figurethe things out.
So well, I went to New York, Ikeep doing the cold email stuff
(21:03):
and say, Hey, I'm here in NewYork.
Let's grab a coffee.
I went to the coworking space,which were way different from
Argentina.
In Argentina we had this, uh,small coworking space where you
launch with people I ended up ina WeWork with, was not what I
was expecting.
And yeah, money was tied andtrying to go to all the meetups
that I can, uh, think of, uh,trying to meet people and uh,
(21:27):
and, and yeah, trying to make myway in that month.
And I remember walking to thecoworking space because the
subway was so expensive.
Skipping some meals and eatingPringles, uh, at night.
So yeah, trying to, oh, my pushthrough the, the US market.
Russel (21:42):
Oh my, there is so much to unpack there, Nico on so many
different levels.
I wanna break down some of this.
Okay.
So I mean, where do we evenbegin with that?
I mean, you just like woke upone day and just jumped on a
plane.
Nico (21:54):
I think I'm not a huge planner.
I'm more like a doer andsometimes it's like I feel that
I need to go for something and Ido it.
So probably it was a process oflike a month.
It's like, alright, I'm gonna gonext month to New York, so I
need somewhere to stay.
I need to start doing this coldemail campaign.
And I need to.
(22:15):
Go to a coworking space to meetnew people.
So that was all the plan, and itwas alright, like, let's be
there for a month and figure itout.
In retrospective.
I think I learned that maybespending there a month, it was
not the most efficient.
And probably a good, like, if Iwould have prepared that a bit
(22:36):
better, I would like, maybe aweek would've had the same
effect with way, uh, yeah, waycheaper.
Uh, but, well I had it to try itout and experience what happened
there.
Russel (22:47):
Yeah.
I mean, I think again, probablysimilarities is I tend to be
like, the best way that I'mgonna just immerse myself into
something is, or get going isjust throw myself in the middle
of the ring.
And then I, I know I have nochoice but to fight my way out
to the point.
If I don't do that from my ownpersonality perspective, I might
take three or six months orsometimes later to plan it, and
(23:09):
then maybe I stop planning andsomething else.
So, I'm with you on this, justdive in but I mean, I just, it's
one thing just.
Go to a new place and do that.
I mean, I don't know, had youspent time in the US before?
Nico (23:20):
Yeah.
And I've been there, I've beento New York before that, like
for a week or so, like onvacations when I was younger.
Run, yeah.
A couple of other times to theus with my dad.
Uh, but this was the first timethat I was.
First traveling alone.
So I was like, completely alone.
And I remember at some point Iget some fever and I was like,
(23:42):
there in my, in my bed, no onetook care for me.
So that, that was an experience.
So it was like, all right, let'sdo it.
I don't know, see what happens.
Russel (23:50):
I just love, I love the hardship, I love the bravery,
the courage to do something likethis.
I mean, it's even telling likenot even enough money from the
subway, which is a relativelycheap form of travel, but you
know, I get it, right.
You're kind of, we were overthere trying to make it all
work.
I mean, by the end of it, whereyou're like, you know what, that
was worth the while I did what Icame to do and I'm, I'm glad I
did it and I achieved what I,
Nico (24:10):
yeah, yeah.
Definitely worth it.
Mostly in terms learnings.
Things that I took, like frombusiness that I came from, like
I came with some good leads,some people that I knew there,
uh, and stuff, but mostly theexperience of going there, I
think it was like changing forme, like.
(24:31):
Sometimes you need to go to seestuff.
You order to do it.
Doing these trips like a coupletimes a year, it's hard.
I know in the run.
Do it over and over again, likethat builds up momentum.
But it's hard to, if you said,all right, this trip
(24:53):
specifically, was it worth it?
Like, if you don't come up withone client, then it's hard to
say, all right, yeah, if it wasworth it, but sometime it leads
you the next to the next clientor to the next move or whatever.
So
Russel (25:05):
yeah.
Yeah.
I love that thought.
It just reminds me like, youknow, and I, and you mentioned
it earlier about your love sackcopy business, that we might
start down a path of doingsomething if we don't find
success quick enough.
We tend to abandon, right?
It's human nature to somedegree, but you know, there is
some just messy, unfamiliar,unknown, just.
(25:26):
Let go and figure it out aspectto a lot of these endeavors as a
business.
And yeah, we can abandonsomething good too early if we
try to find success in everyactivity that we do.
Definitely.
Nico (25:38):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's definitely thecase.
Like sometimes you want to havelike.
The wins super quickly and tryto say, all right, this is what
I'm doing.
I need to get this result orthis outcome.
And sometimes it's not as clearto see the outcome, but you can
feel it that it's there andyou're moving towards where you
wanna be.
(25:59):
And yeah, I felt that for thistrip, it was like probably if I
put it in a balance, like theamount of money that I spent
versus the clients that I got,like it was negative.
But in terms of like.
My long-term goal of having likea US presence and understanding
the culture and seeing howpeople work there, it was
definitely, yeah, super helpfulfor me.
Russel (26:21):
Yeah.
Well, and me personally, I couldsee even being something like
that, making me more successfulis if I just get her out outside
of the day-to-day life andresponsibilities and I'm just
plop myself in the middle and Ihave one focus.
I feel like I might need to trythis.
I know I hope someone listening,someone out there, takes
inspiration from this and goesand plops themselves down in
(26:42):
another city, maybe even anothercountry to drum up some clients.
So I, I'm challenging a listenerout there who's gonna take me up
on this, and then, uh, I'llreport back to you, Nico, if, if
someone does or whatever.
Um, well, really inspiring.
Love that story.
Um, all right, so you came outand that set you up for getting
the US market.
(27:03):
What year are we talking, whereare we at in the timeline at
this point?
Nico (27:06):
I think probably we're four years in or five years in
on the business.
I think the transition, I waslike growing White Canvas in
Argentina for four years when Istarted to hit this, grow pretty
quickly, these economic cyclesand stuff and say, all right,
like I need to go to the USmarket.
And there were like probably,yeah.
(27:26):
It was one of the World Cups.
I don't remember which one.
But it was one of the WorldCups.
And so I remember seeing the,one of the Argentina matches
there in the, in WeWork.
Russel (27:36):
Okay.
And then just, I guess, give usa sense at some point you
decided to start Loop three.
Nico (27:42):
So let's say that was, uh, around year five or six in the
White Canvas journey.
Around that time, within twoyears, I was able to ship big
part of my business to the us.
I started onboarding agencyclients there, started building
good relationships.
Word of mouth, started spreadingand we were doing good there in
the us but what startedhappening was.
(28:03):
People were asking me, Hey, doyou guys do web application
outside WordPress?
And I had learned a lesson, so Isaid, no.
One of my ex-employee wasstarting this dev shop called
Loop Three with another, uh, devpartners.
So I would say, Hey guys, likehere you have, like, I have this
project.
Do you want wanna grab it andgimme a cut for that?
So after sending a couple ofprojects to them, I saw that
(28:26):
they.
They, they were really good inthe dev aspect, but they were
about to make the same mistakesthat I did with webcam.
So at some point say, Hey, likeinstead of me only sending
words, to you guys, do you wantme to come on board and help you
organize this a bit better?
And.
Structure this as a company,they say yes.
So I was able to startoffloading a lot of the the,
(28:49):
what commitment was like, I'mnot gonna get into the
operations whatsoever.
Like, I can lead the way, I canbring new clients, I can do
stuff, but you need to take careof like the delivery and
handling the clients, all thestuff.
So.
I was doing that, I wasreceiving the clients and
telling them on all thisrelationship that I had built,
Hey, I'm starting this newagency where we're doing
(29:10):
software development and we cando A, B, and C.
And at that point we were doingsoftware development within like
some now web stack, but we werenot niching down yet to venture
capital.
So a year in with Loop three,uh, this.
Ex White Canvas client.
He joined venture capital, uh,as a CTO and naturally needed
(29:33):
like a dev shop.
He hired us and we start nichingdown to the venture capital
industry.
And luckily that was like.
The second time I learned theexperience that the niches, like
the moneys in the niches.
For me at least, it was like wedid the great work there.
We start getting a name we getthis big BC and then he referred
(29:54):
us to another one.
And right now we have a coupleof like.
At least four bcs that are, uh,top tier and we're doing really
amazing things with them, so,okay.
So yeah, again, like nichingdown there and starting to say
no to all the other softwaredevelopment and trying to see
where we go with that.
Russel (30:11):
It's such a tough thing when we talk about positioning,
right?
So when I talk about a lot offolks is there's this fear,
right, of if you're trying togrow, you're worried about the
bottom line.
A little bit of saying no toopportunities, but there is so
much power in that, in.
I mean, I don't get the sensethat you're, you, you operate on
a lot of fear per se.
(30:31):
So it seems like when you latchonto an idea, it's just, all
right, that's the new idea andlet's just, yeah, look at work.
Nico (30:37):
But it's always hard to say no to opportunities.
Yeah.
Like sometimes it's super clear.
Sometimes it like the printerexample, like, do you wanna fix
my printer?
And I said, no.
But sometimes I remember Imigrated like.
20 accounts worth of emails fromcomputers to cloud providers.
At my early days at WhiteCanvas, and it was like
(31:01):
something outside, but they werepaying good money, so I was
saying yes.
So at a different level,sometimes now it's still happen.
It's like, Hey, you're going forBC but we are doing this mobile
application for whatever.
Do you want us to give us ahand?
And, and yeah, it's hard to sayno.
So, yeah.
Russel (31:18):
When you're faced with that saying no, and like, not
the easy stuff, right, likeprinters and stuff, like you're
saying, but, but the things thatare close, like what gave you or
gives you the confidence to dothat maybe in the early stage,
right?
I know eventually it comes a loteasier, but in those early days,
like why were you able to dothat?
What'd you tell yourself?
Nico (31:35):
I try to understand what are all the yes that I'm saying
too, because for instance,someone would come and say, Hey,
what do you develop this smallapplication for me?
And I might say yes, because Ihave an available resource, but
what happen if then I getanother venture through capital,
which is.
What I'm going after, and Idon't have the resource or the
(31:59):
developer to allocate to thatproject.
So maybe saying yes to a projectjust for the money, it's derails
you about the bigger vision anddoesn't let you say yes to the
things that will move the needlein the direction that you wanna
go.
So every time a project comes, Itry to understand the economics
of the project if they makesense.
(32:20):
'cause sometimes.
It makes a lot of sense and it'salright, like I can get this
client and I get a lot of moneyto do other stuff, the client
and if it has an opportunity andif it can grow and it's aligned
with the vision that we'retrying to have for ourselves and
those two things, I think it's,they're super important to make
the the right call and then ifit's a fun project or if it's a
(32:42):
fun client as well.
You know, sometimes there arefun projects that you know that
your team will be exciting onworking and stuff and sometimes
that.
I don't think, like, even thoughthis is a lot of money, this
doesn't seem like a, a goodclient to work with.
So those are easier to say noto.
Russel (32:58):
Yeah, it certainly, uh, it's not a black and white
scenario in anything like that,but breaking some of that down
is something I talk with folksabout a lot is I, I love what
you said, the opportunity costis not the fact, I'm just saying
yes to this, but what is itgoing to force me to say no to
elsewhere or what that trade offis?
And yeah, the conversation Ihave a lot with folks too is.
(33:19):
One, if we take that somethingon like that, that's maybe not
ideal know what it is.
Maybe it's just runway.
Right.
And we need runway sometimes.
And yeah.
And that's okay if we're takingon something from runway, but
don't confuse it with growth.
Yeah.
And then yeah, break down theeconomics.
Just, you know, not all money isgreen and, um, what is that
gonna look like?
And then really, it sounds likewhat you're saying there is just
(33:41):
take the time to take a stepback and just.
You know, not just get caught upin the moment of opportunity
one, but great.
Is it fun?
Is it, you know, the economics,whatever those factors are, um,
just really take a minute Yeah.
Before, before you answer andlook at it at those levels.
Nico (33:57):
Yeah.
And sometimes it takes a minuteto identify that.
And it's good that you mentionedthat because it happened two
times this year.
Uh, of all clients that came tome and say, Hey, like we have
this problem.
We have this product that we'redeveloping.
Would you mind helping us out?
And we get into the process.
Review the projects and stuff,and we're almost sending a
proposal and at some point inthere I say like, Hey guys, like
(34:20):
we're not a good fit.
Like this is not gonna be worthit for us.
Like, I don't wanna be workingin a project that we're not
gonna be full committed about.
Like, you're not gonna begetting the best auto fast, so
let's.
Move on a separate direction.
And I think doing that, it waslike a great call, but sometimes
when you are on that salesprocess and you're embracing and
say, Hey, I'm gonna close this.
(34:41):
So your mind is like, I need toclose it.
And sometimes you need to stopand say, I really need to close
this.
Identify it's an opportunitythat is worth getting or better
passing on.
Russel (34:51):
Uh, it makes me think of as you're kinda sharing that,
you know, I think if you talk topeople that really got good at
something, or even maybe likeprofessional athletes, I'm even
sitting here thinking of thisconcept of losing to win.
And the more I think we can makethose sacrifices and still keep
the lights on and know thatthat's the good, you know, have
a vision or have something and,and that we're heading towards
(35:13):
that allows us to do that alittle sharper, a little faster,
a little more focused, uh, tothe extent that we can do that.
That's, yeah, that's gonna be abetter path more often than not.
Nico (35:22):
Definitely.
Yeah, I a hundred percent agreewith that.
Russel (35:25):
Great reminder there in, in many different forms.
One other thing I, I wanna talkabout, and you've brought it up
in different ways throughoutthis conversations, is just
understanding the economics ofthe activity and the business
that we're doing.
And I know for a lot of owners,especially when the bank account
doesn't look as pretty as they'dwant it to be it's easy to
ignore the economic side or notgive it its due and proper.
(35:48):
Go into a little bit about whatthat journey's been like for you
and how much you do, and don'tpay attention to the, the
economic side of this.
Nico (35:55):
Yeah.
So what I learned the hard wayis that sometimes when I
started, the economics that Iwas doing was pretty much super
basic.
It was like, this is the salarythat I'm paying and this is the
website I'm selling.
So this is the money that I'mmaking.
But there are a lot of.
To that and understanding whatthat overhead cost is, like the
(36:17):
occupancy of the agency, likehow billable you can get your
team all that stuff that areinto the weeds or the products
that you need to use to theproject, or if you scope a
project and then takes longer,all the stuff like you need to
factor them in because they canhurt really, really quickly.
(36:37):
Getting back to loop three, likeif you want to be at a certain
level, you need to be able tohire certain talent.
So in order to do that, you needto have like an hourly rate that
allows you to hire the rightpeople, then make a profit out
of that.
I try to think about it like inreverse, like, all right, like
what's the people that I want tohire to do what I need to do?
(36:59):
How much should I charge myclients in order to do that, and
what's the overhead cost thatI'll have for these operations?
And then what I'm doing withLoop Three that I learned the
hard way as well with WhiteCanvas and some of the process
is trying to stay lean in termsof overhead costs, because you
can get a lot of overhead prettyquickly and that start adding up
(37:20):
to stuff.
So trying to stay lean or tostay super billable, it's super
important to stay healthy.
Russel (37:26):
It just goes back to, it's just something you can't
ignore.
And if you want to stay lean,not different than our bodies.
You gotta, you gotta work out,you gotta show up, you gotta pay
attention to it.
You gotta measure, you've got towork backwards.
It's not just about, well, Iwanna lose 10 pounds.
It's how many times a week do Ineed to go to the gym?
And, you know, how long do Ineed to work out and what kind
(37:47):
of food I need to eat?
And can we break it down and payattention to it at the right
level?
And then I think this is thething too.
It seems to me it's so importantto go through and unlearn,
really learn that.
And then once we learn that andunderstand that, then we can
outsource it a more Yeah.
You know, um, because it is notgonna ultimately long-term be
the highest best use of yourtime once you do figure it out
(38:08):
and put in the right mechanicsand where you have more
strategic financial help withinthe business.
How does that look for you?
Nico (38:14):
So it's amazing for me to, the more you learn, the more you
learn that you know nothingabout, like at the very
beginning I was this more cockyin terms of like when I hit the
first home run with the Googleads, it was like, I figure this
out.
Now 10 years seeing and it'slike, alright, I know nothing.
Like there are a lot of thingsfor me to learn here and I know
(38:36):
way more than I did in, in, inthe very beginnings.
Russel (38:39):
Yeah.
Well, that says a lot about yourcharacter.
I mean, I think they say that iswisdom, intelligence is the,
the.
As we get older and we learnmore, we learn, we know less.
And yeah, but it's that mindsetthat keeps us going.
And I totally get it, man.
I always think like if you wentback and told like, I don't
know, high school age, Russellike, Hey man, someday you're
gonna own a$500,000 yearbusiness.
(38:59):
I mean, I would've thought rightthen, like, oh my gosh, I'm the
richest guy in the world.
And then, right.
We'd got to 500,000 in the firstyear, like, I got no money.
Um, yeah.
And, so it's we live and welearn.
Well real quick, uh, we start towrap up here.
I'm just curious, what does thefuture look like for you?
What's the big plan here?
Cool.
Nico (39:19):
So the big plan right now, we're betting a lot into ai,
mostly for White Canvas and, andLoop three the same.
But with White Canvas, we'rebuilding a product to offset a
lot of the development work thatwe're doing with AI and try to
be more efficient.
I think there's gonna be afundamental shift into how we do
websites in.
Near Future, future.
(39:39):
So we wanna be prepared for thatand be like right there on the
forefront.
So we'll build this product touse internally to be able to
meet the standards of what thehigh quality work that we wanna
be doing with a tool forourselves and keep expanding on
that direction and seeing if wecan sell it as a SaaS product as
well.
Always.
I had this.
(40:00):
Trying to have a SaaS product,so we'll see if that works.
And we're getting a lot ofmarket in the BC area, so to
keep expanding there, doingamazing work and getting other
big clients and become a topplayer in that regard.
Russel (40:15):
All right.
Well, I can't wait to see thatjourney continue to evolve and
the more things we'll have youon again, that you can say you
didn't know the last time andlearned in that process.
Yeah.
I'm excited to see that for you.
Well, I got one last bigquestion for you.
Niko or entrepreneurs born
Nico (40:33):
or are they made.
I don't know if I have an answerto that.
I think in my case, I wasdefinitely born an entrepreneur.
Like for me it was alwayssomething, but I knew it on my
soul that I was an entrepreneurand I couldn't have it any other
way.
But I know for a fact that thereare other people that are kind
of entrepreneurs by chance, likethey start doing something and
(40:56):
it work and they'reentrepreneurs.
So yeah, I, I can speak aboutmy, uh, experience and it was
like I was born an entrepreneurhardcore.
I
Russel (41:04):
mean, I love a good born story, but so I'm hearing I was
born, but I understand they canbe made.
That's yeah, we'll sum that up.
Yeah.
I think that's right there.
There's no one right way or oneway.
It takes all kinds.
if people wanna know more aboutWhite Canvas or Loop three,
where can they go
Nico (41:21):
so they can hit our website?
It's uh w canvas.com or loopthree studio.com.
Russel (41:27):
There you have it.
Awesome.
Well, Nico, thank you so muchfor taking the time outta your
schedule to chat with us heretoday.
So many lessons about justdiving in and the power of that
to, the power of positioning andlearning to say no.
So many great insights and Ireally appreciate you taking the
time to share those with ustoday.
Nico (41:48):
Thank you for having me.
It was super fun.
Russel (41:51):
Thank you for listening to an agency story podcast where
every story helps you write yourown, subscribe, share, and join
us again for more real stories,lessons learned, and
breakthroughs ahead.
What's next?
You'll want to visit an agencystory.com/podcast and follow us
on Instagram at an agency storyfor the latest updates.
Nico (42:13):
When I was doing this PlayStation two stuff, I was
four 15 years old.
So at some point we need to getcheaper PlayStations in order to
sell and make a better profit.
So there was, uh, MSN like myMicrosoft Messenger, and we
found this guy online who wasselling really cheap
PlayStations.
So we say, all right, we hit thechatbot.
(42:35):
So they say, all right, like wehave the PlayStations and we are
in, in a little town like.
Two hours away from, from, soyou can send us the money over
whatever.
And we were discussing, theywere sending the pricing.
The pricing was good, was like20% off the market.
So say, alright, we'lldefinitely we'll do that, but
we'll tell all right, like weare gonna go there and we'll go
(42:57):
and see the PlayStations.
My business partner, uh, dad,uh, he drove us there to find
the PlayStations and when wewere there it was like, Hey,
there's no one here.
And they were creating all thestory about that they have the
PlayStations in customs orwhatever, but definitely we made
it to the spot or to location onthe street and we were ringing
(43:19):
some bells and ringing neighborsand say, Hey, like.
These guys are sellingPlayStations and they told us,
no, no, there are a lot ofpeople coming here.
This is, they're trying to stealyou.
So we went there.
We have, um.
Two hour trip to go to a littletown to buy some PlayStations,
but it was good that they didn'trob us or get our money for the
(43:40):
PlayStations.
Russel (43:41):
Yeah.
Crisis averted another majorjackpot opportunity.
Missed air quotes.
Um, but yeah, it sounds likeyou, you made it out about as
good as you can.
Just a, a little, a few bucks ingas in some
Nico (43:52):
time.
Yeah.
But we was this really amazingsandwich on the side of the
highway, so it, it was a funday.
There you go.
There you go.
And a learning experience aswell.
Russel (44:02):
It kind of just falls in the realm of, if it sounds too
good to be true, it probably is.
Welcome to An Agency Story podcast where owners and
experts share the real journey,the early struggles, the
breakthrough moments, andeverything in between.
I'm your host Russel Dubree,former eight figure agency
owner, turn Business coach.
Sold my agency and now helpsagency leaders create their
ideal business.
Every agency has a story, andthis is your front row seat.
(00:23):
This is an agency story.
Welcome to the show todayeveryone.
I have Nico Pisani with WhiteCanvas and Loop3 with us here
today.
Thank you so much for being onthe show today, Nico.
Hey Russell, thanks for havingme.
(00:44):
I am excited to have aconversation.
So I guess, if you don't mind,tell us what White Canvas and
Loop three does and then we'll,we'll get to some stuff for
sure.
Nico (00:54):
So, uh, white Canvas and Loop three are two siblings
agencies at White Canvas.
We do.
WordPress development foragencies, uh, top agencies in in
the us.
So basically what we do is wehelp them in times of work
overload.
They send us the Figma files andthey can expect, uh, high-end
quality WordPress custom theme,uh, delivered to them.
(01:16):
And in loop three, we develop.
Custom solutions softwaresolutions for venture capitals,
like huge venture capitals wouldneed to make sense of their data
and reach some informationautomate some processes, create
custom tools.
So for instance, uh, last weekwe created an integration with
(01:37):
an LLM and a lot of databasesfor them to be able to speak
with their data in naturallanguage and not needing a data
analytics for that.
Russel (01:46):
Okay, well, we're gonna dig into, I mean, it's hard
enough to run one agency now.
You, you got two under yourbelt, but we're gonna find out
about more about what that lookslike here in a little bit.
But, we'll start earlier in yourjourney and work to that.
And you are from a verybeautiful land from far, far
away from me anyway.
(02:07):
Tell us about young Nico.
Where are you from?
Let's
Nico (02:11):
Sure.
So, well, I'm from Argentina,Buenos Aires.
Uh, so yeah, a bit southern, uh,from you guys.
Uh, and, uh, young Nico wasalways an entrepreneur.
I consider myself anentrepreneur about everything,
so I was always.
Curious about buildingbusinesses, doing stuff.
So I started really young at inhigh school selling PlayStations
(02:33):
too, in like the eBay equivalenthere in Argentina, digging my
first steps as an entrepreneur.
There.
It was not a really goodbusiness model.
I think like only sold likethree or four, PlayStation two,
but for a 15 year olds old wasgood enough.
So, uh, right after high schoolI had to start doing something
and my dad said, alright, like,while you study, you come and
(02:55):
work for me at my law firm.
He has like a small practicearound.
Three employees.
So, I mean, were you excited
Russel (03:03):
about that?
Like when Dad says with me, no,not at all.
Like,
Nico (03:06):
I didn't wanna do that, but I had to pay my bills, my
own things.
Like I, I was still living withhim, so like the bills were not
huge, but I still need somemoney to go out with my friends
and do stuff.
Fair.
So I was there, I remember beingthere, sitting in the chair
doing random things like, andlooking at the clock.
Watching the, the secondsticking and hopefully like one,
(03:28):
one time to go home.
So I think like a year in orwhatever he hired someone to
create the website for thepractice.
And naturally I was the.
Kind of, not project manager,but like basically trying to get
all the information to give tothe developer.
It was like a freelancedeveloper and sending over, I'm
(03:50):
doing that stuff.
And to be honest, the processwas awful and the result was
even worse.
So at some point I say, Hey dad,like.
I'll do this for you.
And just to recap a bit, I wasbeing nerdy in terms of, I
always like to code.
I did some games when I was athigh school okay.
Stuff.
Okay, that makes more sense.
So it was, yeah, I was walking.
This was not uncharted territory
Russel (04:11):
for you.
Nico (04:11):
Yeah, no, I, I was always into computers, but I, I've
never developed a website.
I say how hard it could be.
So I started digging around anddiscover there that I really
enjoy that.
So in that process.
I said, alright, if this guy ismaking probably the same amount
of money that I'm making workinga month here, like I should
(04:33):
definitely do the same.
So.
Right there after developing thesite which it was decent.
It was better than thefreelancer developer.
Like, looking back, it wasprobably not so good, but still
the first shot.
So, uh, what with that, I sayall like, I, I'm gonna quit.
I'm gonna go, full-time intothis.
I'm gonna learn as fast as I canthis, because I really enjoy
(04:53):
this.
So I did that high quit.
And, and start learning as fastas I could.
How to develop websites andstart pinging all my network and
saying, Hey guys, I'm doingwebsite.
Like who wanna hire me?
Uh, and at some point there was,uh, another guy from my high
school who was doing design forwebsites and I told him, Hey,
I'm doing websites I liked, likethat part of things you are
(05:16):
designing stuff.
If you ever have a project, letme know.
And he did have a project, sothat was like my first.
Paying project, which was notactually my dad.
So probably that was like at 19years old.
Okay.
So that's when I started likedoing the freelance business.
Russel (05:35):
Okay.
So, okay.
So you've basically been anentrepreneur since, well, since,
since you graduated school.
Nico (05:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And in the meantime I alwayshad, uh, do you know love socks
there, like the bean bags thatyou have?
Oh, yes, yes, yes.
Somewhere between thePlayStation two and the
websites.
I tried to create a copycathere, and I still have one like
walkie we'd call it here in myoffice.
So.
I probably only sold two ofthose, like one to my dad and
(06:02):
one to myself or whatever.
Oh, that's funny.
It was fun.
Russel (06:06):
What was your inspiration like?
Why that as a product?
I mean that seems quite adeparture, like you said, a tech
guy and, and all that.
Nico (06:13):
Uh, to be honest, as I was saying, like I consider myself
an entrepreneur, so I got reallyexcited about.
New stuff.
So I probably was watchingYouTube or whatever.
I saw these bean bags were hugeand amazing and say like, well,
that's something cool to do.
I, we don't have this inArgentina, so I definitely
should copy that.
So I figured it out.
(06:34):
I, I do it, but it was likesuper expensive to produce.
They were big.
It was like the audience was,yeah, it was hard to sell and I
had no experience.
I probably quit.
Way too quickly.
Probably if I would push a bitmore, I would've been able to
sell some.
But, but yeah, like you, I wastrying to start something, but
then, you know, when things geta bit complicated, I was tend to
(06:55):
quit.
So, uh, those, the firststartups were hard for me.
Uh,
Russel (07:00):
I'm sure you learned some good things from the
beanbag, uh, yeah.
Entrepreneur journey and so,yeah.
All right.
So you're doing the freelancerthing.
And I mean, when would you sayyou went from freelancer to
being an actual agency?
Nico (07:13):
So I think I freelanced for around three years or so.
I was doing.
One side every other month orwhatever was good enough for me
to be able to to pay my bills.
Uh, did you still live with yourdad?
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah, in between.
I went to live with mygirlfriend at at least little
(07:35):
remote town in cor, which islike, have you seen the cars
movie?
Uh, right here on, right here,Springs.
So you can think about that.
It was like these one main road.
A lot of shops there.
And I was there with, trying tosell websites and actually that
was an in-between, betweenfreelancing and agency.
But it was like, I thinksomething cool for me, which is
(07:58):
like, I was there trying to sellwebsites.
People there like, they don'tneed a website because it was
like a super small town.
So I say, what if I create alisting for these little town,
like.
So I spin up our WordPresspretty quickly and when I win my
iPad, I can start knocking ondoors and hey, say, Hey, I'm
creating this listing.
I can take a couple of picturesof your shop.
(08:20):
We can put it online at theinformation and people will see
you there and we'll call you.
So I start charging like$50 amonth or whatever to be there.
And I got a lot of clients, so Ibet it was right.
If I go and sell, which I, it'shard to sell because you need to
get out of your comfort zone.
I can get things there.
(08:41):
Okay, so there moving then, atsome point I get back to Buenos
Aires, uh, to a big city inArgentina, and I was, all right,
let's try to get some clients.
How come I stop being afreelance and build a, a bigger
business for myself?
And I had this amazing ideawhere.
There was, Facebook was a thingback then.
(09:04):
And they have these groups whereI was like a designers group
where I come in and my logicwas, if I can find.
Some designers to find work forme, then I can do the coding and
then we can sell a couple ofwebsites.
So I can start an agency withevery designer and then I can
have some flow coming in, whichwas a terrible idea.
(09:25):
But, um,
Russel (09:26):
what you're saying, your, your idea of finding
designers to be referral sourcesfor you?
Nico (09:31):
No, the idea was like, because I started saying, Hey,
let's build an agency together.
So literally I created.
Five agencies in parallel atsome point saying like, we had a
name with the designers andwhatever.
Oh, so it was nuts.
Um.
Not a lot of work came fromthere.
And someplace say like, I'mtrying to sell myself as an
agency, maybe that's not worthit.
(09:53):
And what I should do is like, bemore realistic.
Like, I'm Nico, I'm afreelancer.
I'm someone that you can relyto.
I created a landing page, whichwas Nicolas designing, um, web
designer on web developer.
You can hire me.
I'll never speak in techlanguage or whatever.
So I had a website which had acompelling story, and then it's
(10:15):
like, how do I get people tosee, to watch the website?
So I found a Udemy course aboutGoogle AdWords.
So started learning about GoogleAdWords and with that.
Basically run my first campaignand at the moment I think it was
like 50 bucks a day or whatever,that for me was a lot of money.
(10:36):
So I remember thinking to myselflike, if this doesn't work for
five days or so, like it's gonnahurt.
But I.
Click the play button and startpraying and one hour after I hit
the play button, people startcalling me.
So, wow.
Yeah, I, I started getting a newbusiness and the flow was
(10:57):
getting bigger and bigger, and Ithink like within two weeks I
say, Hey, I need to hire someoneto help me.
And that's when I decided,right, let's stop being a
freelancer and create an agency.
Russel (11:07):
That's fascinating.
I mean that might, you know,I've done a ton of these
interviews now and I cannotthink of someone that really
said their first book of clientscame from running ads.
I mean, existing agencies reallystruggle with that as a lead gen
source.
Like why do you think that waseffective for you?
Nico (11:25):
I think first there are a couple of things probably I
think like the website that Ihad, like being a freelancer and
not trying to oversell likeright there, like I probably was
like 2011 or something likethat, or 2012.
So not trying to oversell myselfas a big agency, but being
genuine about like, Hey, I'mthis guy who it's techie who
(11:46):
knows about websites and can dothis for you.
Was like a really compellingmessage.
Also, I think it was likeanother time where you literally
Google, I need a web designer orwhatever, and then you appear
first.
People click on that and itwork.
Like I tried to replicate thatafterwards a couple of times and
(12:09):
it didn't work anymore for me.
Literally kinda a lot more
Russel (12:11):
crowded, I guess, too, these days than Yeah, it's
crowded.
It's more
Nico (12:14):
expensive.
Um, and yeah.
Russel (12:18):
Yeah.
Fair enough.
Fair enough.
And then, so that was WhiteCanvas.
Yeah.
And I, I know a little bit aboutyour journey and you've evolved
and obviously you've evolvedinto another agency, but you've
gone through the positioningjourney and kind of whitting
down what you were doing.
When did that come about forWhite Canvas?
What spurred you to better lockin on what you do and why you do
(12:40):
it?
Nico (12:41):
Just for context, when I first started White Canvas, I
was 23 years.
Didn't know what I was doing.
I was just going with it andtrying to like sell stuff to
people.
So people would call me and say,Hey, like White Canvas was born
as a Marketing 360 agency, thatwe do everything.
(13:01):
So they will call me and say,Hey, I need a logo.
All right, no problem.
I'll do it for you.
And I had the designer, I needsome social media manager.
Alright, I can do that for you.
And I, at some point I need a.
Software, it was like a webapplication, super complicated
managed talk, whatever.
Yeah, we can handle that.
And so I getting a lot ofprojects that are, were way
(13:24):
outside my wheelhouse.
And at some point I had likearound eight employees different
projects, but I didn't get theeconomics quite well.
So the projects were not superprofitable.
And at that point, WordPressstarted to.
Become like a pattern that itwas repeating on the projects
that were right.
(13:45):
So I decided, all right, let'sremove all the clutter.
Let's try to focus on WordPress.
Let's do these really well andtry to make it profitable.
Because like, to be honest, inthose periods there were like.
Long months where I didn't get apaycheck.
Some, yeah, red numbers.
They're on the balance sheet, soit was like they, they were not
fun.
Russel (14:05):
Yeah, I mean that sounds exactly like the same path that
we did.
I mean, we were web and I'mpretty sure, I'm actually pretty
sure we sold one time somebody,one of our clients was having
trouble with their internet.
We went over to their office tohelp them troubleshoot their
internet.
But yeah, technologies we'reall, you know, we're doing every
call kinds of technologies, netand all the, you know, nuke and
(14:27):
I can't even remember all theones that were around back then.
And then, yeah, we woke up oneday and said.
This is not gonna work.
Yeah.
We can't hire for this.
We can't be profitable.
Uh, clients are not happy.
It's, um, we gotta whittle thisthing down.
Nico (14:40):
It's hard.
I remember one time this guycalling me about, Hey, I need
you to come and fix my printer.
Right?
It's like, not what I do.
And like.
For me, printers have their ownsoul.
So that's where I'm gonna drawthe line.
Isn't that the truth?
Russel (14:54):
That that was, that was your boundary.
I don't do printers, but, uh, uhsure.
I'll change your tire and I'mgonna guess that, right.
One of the things and, you know,talk a lot about it folks, and
you know, it's definitelybecoming more pervasive now that
gotta specialize in some way asan agency.
Uh, but I have yet to talk to anagency that specialized and went
(15:15):
back.
So I imagine, um, I'm gonnaguess that worked out well for
you.
Nico (15:19):
Yeah, uh, definitely it did.
I think it was, uh, the rightpath and right now we are
thinking about expanding a bitmore.
Outside only WordPress, uh, toother technologies.
But only after we were able toget the processes in place and
we know how to replicate thatinto different technologies, but
(15:40):
trying to get everything rightat the very beginning was like a
really cost mistake for us.
And I think it was like, yeah.
Something that was, was not, notthe right choice.
Russel (15:49):
Yeah.
And I think that is, that isvery common and why we end up in
that place, like as an agency iswhat you were talking about
there, right?
Is the product build phase.
Like before we go just launch athing and start selling and
think we're gonna be profitable,it's, we gotta figure out all
the same things we did on thethings that make us specialist
so we, we actually have a viableproduct that we can sell.
And not only sell, but delivereffectively.
(16:12):
I know at some point in yourjourney, you, the words you
might have used were grew toofast.
Um, has this already happenedyet in our discussion, or is
that yet to come?
Nico (16:22):
It did, uh, it did somewhere in between.
Uh, basically it was like I hitthe, the gas on Google AdWords
and I was receiving a lot ofphone calls.
I'm I.
To be honest with you, when Istarted receiving the phone
calls, it's like, all right, Icracked the code.
I'm gonna go volunteer.
Like I'm gonna be a millionairein no time.
So these, I, I already sort thisout.
(16:43):
So I, I was selling like, youneed a website, I'll sell that
to you.
And I was selling, selling,selling, selling.
And at the same time, I neededto do that.
So I started hiring people.
So probably within a year orwhat, I think it was like a year
or so.
From being a freelancer to beinglike an eight people team.
But my numbers were for afreelancing business and I have
(17:05):
a lot of the economics that werenot definitely in place.
So those was one of the, thebigger mistakes I made.
And it was like growing too fastwithout having like solid
foundations in of what I wasdoing.
So.
People will come create awebsite, but then it took like
probably four months and at thattime, in my mind, websites were
(17:26):
taking 30 hours or so.
So it like the, the math wereoff like by all meanings, so
yeah.
So yeah.
Russel (17:34):
Nico, I think you're my agency brother from a different
mother.
I literally remember having thisexact same conversation with my
business partner, I think it wasaround 2008.
And we were like, you know, cameinto the beginning of the year
like, we're gonna blow the socksoff this thing.
We're just gonna sell likewildfire and we're gonna grow
this thing to millions ofdollars along the same basis.
Like, just, just sell everythingand we'll figure it out.
And I mean, that was literally,I think what.
(17:56):
That was probably the mostdangerous words I've ever said
in my life.
And what almost caused theentire, all the wheels to fall
off.
Uh, and the way I always tellfolks is, you know, very lucky
to still have been in businessafter making a lot of bad moves
like that.
So, yeah.
We gotta learn from the schoolof hard knocks, I guess.
Nico (18:13):
Yeah, I think it was, it, it was hard, but it was, it was
good learning that, and I thinklike when you learn with your
own pain, it's, it's somethingthat you'll take forever.
So.
Russel (18:23):
Right on.
Right on.
And then, it sounds like a lotof your early business, I mean,
I, I know at some point youtransitioned to wanting to focus
on a US market.
Um, were you already doing thatat this point or is that coming,
coming later as well?
That,
Nico (18:36):
that was, um, in, in that between, I grew too quickly.
I have these eight people, teammember.
I didn't get the economicsright.
And also the other thing thatstarted to happen, it sat in.
Argentina, we're like arollercoaster in terms of the
economy, so we have ups anddowns all the time, so it's hard
to to project.
So I had these eight peopleworking for me.
(18:59):
A lot of things that were mymistakes, but then a couple of
other things were like.
I was not able to bring as muchwork as I was able to because
the economic was a bit down.
So there I decided like, I don'twanna be depending on the cycles
here in Argentina, so let's tryto focus on growing other
(19:19):
markets.
And I started reviewing, and theUS was one of the.
Spots for me, the time zone,it's like pretty close.
I we're one hour ahead ofEastern time, so it's like, all
right, let's shoot there.
So I started, yeah, trying toget into that market.
So it was like starting fromscratch, you know, like I didn't
like Google ads.
It was not an option for mebecause the cost per click was
(19:41):
wakes like way too expensive forme.
So trying to find other ways toget clients.
Russel (19:48):
Okay.
Like, what did you do?
You wake up one day and said, I,I need to get more US clients.
What, what did you do fromthere?
So,
Nico (19:55):
yeah, that was a process.
Uh, one of the things like, uh,at this time I was at coworking
space.
So, uh, a friend of mine wasdoing this thing called email,
which was the first time that Iwas hearing about it.
So he said, all right, I'm gonnarun some cold email campaign for
you, uh, before.
We screwed it up.
And now cold email, it's hard tosell things with.
(20:18):
So we started doing cold emailand then it's like, all right,
let's do that.
But then I say like, if I'mgonna go to the US market, I
need to go to the us.
So I book a ticket, I go to NewYork and say, I'm gonna go there
for a month and I'm gonna figureit out.
So I remember packing my bags,going there, uh, renting a room
in an Airbnb, uh, an.
(20:40):
New York, it's an expensivecity, but if you're from
Argentina and you have Argentinapesos, it's way more expensive.
So it was like a really big betfor me, uh, but I was determined
to figure that out.
So I remember going there.
And saying, all right, I'm gonnago to a coworking space, meeting
a lot of cool people and figurethe things out.
So well, I went to New York, Ikeep doing the cold email stuff
(21:03):
and say, Hey, I'm here in NewYork.
Let's grab a coffee.
I went to the coworking space,which were way different from
Argentina.
In Argentina we had this, uh,small coworking space where you
launch with people I ended up ina WeWork with, was not what I
was expecting.
And yeah, money was tied andtrying to go to all the meetups
that I can, uh, think of, uh,trying to meet people and uh,
(21:27):
and, and yeah, trying to make myway in that month.
And I remember walking to thecoworking space because the
subway was so expensive.
Skipping some meals and eatingPringles, uh, at night.
So yeah, trying to, oh, my pushthrough the, the US market.
Russel (21:42):
Oh my, there is so much to unpack there, Nico on so many
different levels.
I wanna break down some of this.
Okay.
So I mean, where do we evenbegin with that?
I mean, you just like woke upone day and just jumped on a
plane.
Nico (21:54):
I think I'm not a huge planner.
I'm more like a doer andsometimes it's like I feel that
I need to go for something and Ido it.
So probably it was a process oflike a month.
It's like, alright, I'm gonna gonext month to New York, so I
need somewhere to stay.
I need to start doing this coldemail campaign.
And I need to.
(22:15):
Go to a coworking space to meetnew people.
So that was all the plan, and itwas alright, like, let's be
there for a month and figure itout.
In retrospective.
I think I learned that maybespending there a month, it was
not the most efficient.
And probably a good, like, if Iwould have prepared that a bit
(22:36):
better, I would like, maybe aweek would've had the same
effect with way, uh, yeah, waycheaper.
Uh, but, well I had it to try itout and experience what happened
there.
Russel (22:47):
Yeah.
I mean, I think again, probablysimilarities is I tend to be
like, the best way that I'mgonna just immerse myself into
something is, or get going isjust throw myself in the middle
of the ring.
And then I, I know I have nochoice but to fight my way out
to the point.
If I don't do that from my ownpersonality perspective, I might
take three or six months orsometimes later to plan it, and
(23:09):
then maybe I stop planning andsomething else.
So, I'm with you on this, justdive in but I mean, I just, it's
one thing just.
Go to a new place and do that.
I mean, I don't know, had youspent time in the US before?
Nico (23:20):
Yeah.
And I've been there, I've beento New York before that, like
for a week or so, like onvacations when I was younger.
Run, yeah.
A couple of other times to theus with my dad.
Uh, but this was the first timethat I was.
First traveling alone.
So I was like, completely alone.
And I remember at some point Iget some fever and I was like,
(23:42):
there in my, in my bed, no onetook care for me.
So that, that was an experience.
So it was like, all right, let'sdo it.
I don't know, see what happens.
Russel (23:50):
I just love, I love the hardship, I love the bravery,
the courage to do something likethis.
I mean, it's even telling likenot even enough money from the
subway, which is a relativelycheap form of travel, but you
know, I get it, right.
You're kind of, we were overthere trying to make it all
work.
I mean, by the end of it, whereyou're like, you know what, that
was worth the while I did what Icame to do and I'm, I'm glad I
did it and I achieved what I,
Nico (24:10):
yeah, yeah.
Definitely worth it.
Mostly in terms learnings.
Things that I took, like frombusiness that I came from, like
I came with some good leads,some people that I knew there,
uh, and stuff, but mostly theexperience of going there, I
think it was like changing forme, like.
(24:31):
Sometimes you need to go to seestuff.
You order to do it.
Doing these trips like a coupletimes a year, it's hard.
I know in the run.
Do it over and over again, likethat builds up momentum.
But it's hard to, if you said,all right, this trip
(24:53):
specifically, was it worth it?
Like, if you don't come up withone client, then it's hard to
say, all right, yeah, if it wasworth it, but sometime it leads
you the next to the next clientor to the next move or whatever.
So
Russel (25:05):
yeah.
Yeah.
I love that thought.
It just reminds me like, youknow, and I, and you mentioned
it earlier about your love sackcopy business, that we might
start down a path of doingsomething if we don't find
success quick enough.
We tend to abandon, right?
It's human nature to somedegree, but you know, there is
some just messy, unfamiliar,unknown, just.
(25:26):
Let go and figure it out aspectto a lot of these endeavors as a
business.
And yeah, we can abandonsomething good too early if we
try to find success in everyactivity that we do.
Definitely.
Nico (25:38):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's definitely thecase.
Like sometimes you want to havelike.
The wins super quickly and tryto say, all right, this is what
I'm doing.
I need to get this result orthis outcome.
And sometimes it's not as clearto see the outcome, but you can
feel it that it's there andyou're moving towards where you
wanna be.
(25:59):
And yeah, I felt that for thistrip, it was like probably if I
put it in a balance, like theamount of money that I spent
versus the clients that I got,like it was negative.
But in terms of like.
My long-term goal of having likea US presence and understanding
the culture and seeing howpeople work there, it was
definitely, yeah, super helpfulfor me.
Russel (26:21):
Yeah.
Well, and me personally, I couldsee even being something like
that, making me more successfulis if I just get her out outside
of the day-to-day life andresponsibilities and I'm just
plop myself in the middle and Ihave one focus.
I feel like I might need to trythis.
I know I hope someone listening,someone out there, takes
inspiration from this and goesand plops themselves down in
(26:42):
another city, maybe even anothercountry to drum up some clients.
So I, I'm challenging a listenerout there who's gonna take me up
on this, and then, uh, I'llreport back to you, Nico, if, if
someone does or whatever.
Um, well, really inspiring.
Love that story.
Um, all right, so you came outand that set you up for getting
the US market.
(27:03):
What year are we talking, whereare we at in the timeline at
this point?
Nico (27:06):
I think probably we're four years in or five years in
on the business.
I think the transition, I waslike growing White Canvas in
Argentina for four years when Istarted to hit this, grow pretty
quickly, these economic cyclesand stuff and say, all right,
like I need to go to the USmarket.
And there were like probably,yeah.
(27:26):
It was one of the World Cups.
I don't remember which one.
But it was one of the WorldCups.
And so I remember seeing the,one of the Argentina matches
there in the, in WeWork.
Russel (27:36):
Okay.
And then just, I guess, give usa sense at some point you
decided to start Loop three.
Nico (27:42):
So let's say that was, uh, around year five or six in the
White Canvas journey.
Around that time, within twoyears, I was able to ship big
part of my business to the us.
I started onboarding agencyclients there, started building
good relationships.
Word of mouth, started spreadingand we were doing good there in
the us but what startedhappening was.
(28:03):
People were asking me, Hey, doyou guys do web application
outside WordPress?
And I had learned a lesson, so Isaid, no.
One of my ex-employee wasstarting this dev shop called
Loop Three with another, uh, devpartners.
So I would say, Hey guys, likehere you have, like, I have this
project.
Do you want wanna grab it andgimme a cut for that?
So after sending a couple ofprojects to them, I saw that
(28:26):
they.
They, they were really good inthe dev aspect, but they were
about to make the same mistakesthat I did with webcam.
So at some point say, Hey, likeinstead of me only sending
words, to you guys, do you wantme to come on board and help you
organize this a bit better?
And.
Structure this as a company,they say yes.
So I was able to startoffloading a lot of the the,
(28:49):
what commitment was like, I'mnot gonna get into the
operations whatsoever.
Like, I can lead the way, I canbring new clients, I can do
stuff, but you need to take careof like the delivery and
handling the clients, all thestuff.
So.
I was doing that, I wasreceiving the clients and
telling them on all thisrelationship that I had built,
Hey, I'm starting this newagency where we're doing
(29:10):
software development and we cando A, B, and C.
And at that point we were doingsoftware development within like
some now web stack, but we werenot niching down yet to venture
capital.
So a year in with Loop three,uh, this.
Ex White Canvas client.
He joined venture capital, uh,as a CTO and naturally needed
(29:33):
like a dev shop.
He hired us and we start nichingdown to the venture capital
industry.
And luckily that was like.
The second time I learned theexperience that the niches, like
the moneys in the niches.
For me at least, it was like wedid the great work there.
We start getting a name we getthis big BC and then he referred
(29:54):
us to another one.
And right now we have a coupleof like.
At least four bcs that are, uh,top tier and we're doing really
amazing things with them, so,okay.
So yeah, again, like nichingdown there and starting to say
no to all the other softwaredevelopment and trying to see
where we go with that.
Russel (30:11):
It's such a tough thing when we talk about positioning,
right?
So when I talk about a lot offolks is there's this fear,
right, of if you're trying togrow, you're worried about the
bottom line.
A little bit of saying no toopportunities, but there is so
much power in that, in.
I mean, I don't get the sensethat you're, you, you operate on
a lot of fear per se.
(30:31):
So it seems like when you latchonto an idea, it's just, all
right, that's the new idea andlet's just, yeah, look at work.
Nico (30:37):
But it's always hard to say no to opportunities.
Yeah.
Like sometimes it's super clear.
Sometimes it like the printerexample, like, do you wanna fix
my printer?
And I said, no.
But sometimes I remember Imigrated like.
20 accounts worth of emails fromcomputers to cloud providers.
At my early days at WhiteCanvas, and it was like
(31:01):
something outside, but they werepaying good money, so I was
saying yes.
So at a different level,sometimes now it's still happen.
It's like, Hey, you're going forBC but we are doing this mobile
application for whatever.
Do you want us to give us ahand?
And, and yeah, it's hard to sayno.
So, yeah.
Russel (31:18):
When you're faced with that saying no, and like, not
the easy stuff, right, likeprinters and stuff, like you're
saying, but, but the things thatare close, like what gave you or
gives you the confidence to dothat maybe in the early stage,
right?
I know eventually it comes a loteasier, but in those early days,
like why were you able to dothat?
What'd you tell yourself?
Nico (31:35):
I try to understand what are all the yes that I'm saying
too, because for instance,someone would come and say, Hey,
what do you develop this smallapplication for me?
And I might say yes, because Ihave an available resource, but
what happen if then I getanother venture through capital,
which is.
What I'm going after, and Idon't have the resource or the
(31:59):
developer to allocate to thatproject.
So maybe saying yes to a projectjust for the money, it's derails
you about the bigger vision anddoesn't let you say yes to the
things that will move the needlein the direction that you wanna
go.
So every time a project comes, Itry to understand the economics
of the project if they makesense.
(32:20):
'cause sometimes.
It makes a lot of sense and it'salright, like I can get this
client and I get a lot of moneyto do other stuff, the client
and if it has an opportunity andif it can grow and it's aligned
with the vision that we'retrying to have for ourselves and
those two things, I think it's,they're super important to make
the the right call and then ifit's a fun project or if it's a
(32:42):
fun client as well.
You know, sometimes there arefun projects that you know that
your team will be exciting onworking and stuff and sometimes
that.
I don't think, like, even thoughthis is a lot of money, this
doesn't seem like a, a goodclient to work with.
So those are easier to say noto.
Russel (32:58):
Yeah, it certainly, uh, it's not a black and white
scenario in anything like that,but breaking some of that down
is something I talk with folksabout a lot is I, I love what
you said, the opportunity costis not the fact, I'm just saying
yes to this, but what is itgoing to force me to say no to
elsewhere or what that trade offis?
And yeah, the conversation Ihave a lot with folks too is.
(33:19):
One, if we take that somethingon like that, that's maybe not
ideal know what it is.
Maybe it's just runway.
Right.
And we need runway sometimes.
And yeah.
And that's okay if we're takingon something from runway, but
don't confuse it with growth.
Yeah.
And then yeah, break down theeconomics.
Just, you know, not all money isgreen and, um, what is that
gonna look like?
And then really, it sounds likewhat you're saying there is just
(33:41):
take the time to take a stepback and just.
You know, not just get caught upin the moment of opportunity
one, but great.
Is it fun?
Is it, you know, the economics,whatever those factors are, um,
just really take a minute Yeah.
Before, before you answer andlook at it at those levels.
Nico (33:57):
Yeah.
And sometimes it takes a minuteto identify that.
And it's good that you mentionedthat because it happened two
times this year.
Uh, of all clients that came tome and say, Hey, like we have
this problem.
We have this product that we'redeveloping.
Would you mind helping us out?
And we get into the process.
Review the projects and stuff,and we're almost sending a
proposal and at some point inthere I say like, Hey guys, like
(34:20):
we're not a good fit.
Like this is not gonna be worthit for us.
Like, I don't wanna be workingin a project that we're not
gonna be full committed about.
Like, you're not gonna begetting the best auto fast, so
let's.
Move on a separate direction.
And I think doing that, it waslike a great call, but sometimes
when you are on that salesprocess and you're embracing and
say, Hey, I'm gonna close this.
(34:41):
So your mind is like, I need toclose it.
And sometimes you need to stopand say, I really need to close
this.
Identify it's an opportunitythat is worth getting or better
passing on.
Russel (34:51):
Uh, it makes me think of as you're kinda sharing that,
you know, I think if you talk topeople that really got good at
something, or even maybe likeprofessional athletes, I'm even
sitting here thinking of thisconcept of losing to win.
And the more I think we can makethose sacrifices and still keep
the lights on and know thatthat's the good, you know, have
a vision or have something and,and that we're heading towards
(35:13):
that allows us to do that alittle sharper, a little faster,
a little more focused, uh, tothe extent that we can do that.
That's, yeah, that's gonna be abetter path more often than not.
Nico (35:22):
Definitely.
Yeah, I a hundred percent agreewith that.
Russel (35:25):
Great reminder there in, in many different forms.
One other thing I, I wanna talkabout, and you've brought it up
in different ways throughoutthis conversations, is just
understanding the economics ofthe activity and the business
that we're doing.
And I know for a lot of owners,especially when the bank account
doesn't look as pretty as they'dwant it to be it's easy to
ignore the economic side or notgive it its due and proper.
(35:48):
Go into a little bit about whatthat journey's been like for you
and how much you do, and don'tpay attention to the, the
economic side of this.
Nico (35:55):
Yeah.
So what I learned the hard wayis that sometimes when I
started, the economics that Iwas doing was pretty much super
basic.
It was like, this is the salarythat I'm paying and this is the
website I'm selling.
So this is the money that I'mmaking.
But there are a lot of.
To that and understanding whatthat overhead cost is, like the
(36:17):
occupancy of the agency, likehow billable you can get your
team all that stuff that areinto the weeds or the products
that you need to use to theproject, or if you scope a
project and then takes longer,all the stuff like you need to
factor them in because they canhurt really, really quickly.
(36:37):
Getting back to loop three, likeif you want to be at a certain
level, you need to be able tohire certain talent.
So in order to do that, you needto have like an hourly rate that
allows you to hire the rightpeople, then make a profit out
of that.
I try to think about it like inreverse, like, all right, like
what's the people that I want tohire to do what I need to do?
(36:59):
How much should I charge myclients in order to do that, and
what's the overhead cost thatI'll have for these operations?
And then what I'm doing withLoop Three that I learned the
hard way as well with WhiteCanvas and some of the process
is trying to stay lean in termsof overhead costs, because you
can get a lot of overhead prettyquickly and that start adding up
(37:20):
to stuff.
So trying to stay lean or tostay super billable, it's super
important to stay healthy.
Russel (37:26):
It just goes back to, it's just something you can't
ignore.
And if you want to stay lean,not different than our bodies.
You gotta, you gotta work out,you gotta show up, you gotta pay
attention to it.
You gotta measure, you've got towork backwards.
It's not just about, well, Iwanna lose 10 pounds.
It's how many times a week do Ineed to go to the gym?
And, you know, how long do Ineed to work out and what kind
(37:47):
of food I need to eat?
And can we break it down and payattention to it at the right
level?
And then I think this is thething too.
It seems to me it's so importantto go through and unlearn,
really learn that.
And then once we learn that andunderstand that, then we can
outsource it a more Yeah.
You know, um, because it is notgonna ultimately long-term be
the highest best use of yourtime once you do figure it out
(38:08):
and put in the right mechanicsand where you have more
strategic financial help withinthe business.
How does that look for you?
Nico (38:14):
So it's amazing for me to, the more you learn, the more you
learn that you know nothingabout, like at the very
beginning I was this more cockyin terms of like when I hit the
first home run with the Googleads, it was like, I figure this
out.
Now 10 years seeing and it'slike, alright, I know nothing.
Like there are a lot of thingsfor me to learn here and I know
(38:36):
way more than I did in, in, inthe very beginnings.
Russel (38:39):
Yeah.
Well, that says a lot about yourcharacter.
I mean, I think they say that iswisdom, intelligence is the,
the.
As we get older and we learnmore, we learn, we know less.
And yeah, but it's that mindsetthat keeps us going.
And I totally get it, man.
I always think like if you wentback and told like, I don't
know, high school age, Russellike, Hey man, someday you're
gonna own a$500,000 yearbusiness.
(38:59):
I mean, I would've thought rightthen, like, oh my gosh, I'm the
richest guy in the world.
And then, right.
We'd got to 500,000 in the firstyear, like, I got no money.
Um, yeah.
And, so it's we live and welearn.
Well real quick, uh, we start towrap up here.
I'm just curious, what does thefuture look like for you?
What's the big plan here?
Cool.
Nico (39:19):
So the big plan right now, we're betting a lot into ai,
mostly for White Canvas and, andLoop three the same.
But with White Canvas, we'rebuilding a product to offset a
lot of the development work thatwe're doing with AI and try to
be more efficient.
I think there's gonna be afundamental shift into how we do
websites in.
Near Future, future.
(39:39):
So we wanna be prepared for thatand be like right there on the
forefront.
So we'll build this product touse internally to be able to
meet the standards of what thehigh quality work that we wanna
be doing with a tool forourselves and keep expanding on
that direction and seeing if wecan sell it as a SaaS product as
well.
Always.
I had this.
(40:00):
Trying to have a SaaS product,so we'll see if that works.
And we're getting a lot ofmarket in the BC area, so to
keep expanding there, doingamazing work and getting other
big clients and become a topplayer in that regard.
Russel (40:15):
All right.
Well, I can't wait to see thatjourney continue to evolve and
the more things we'll have youon again, that you can say you
didn't know the last time andlearned in that process.
Yeah.
I'm excited to see that for you.
Well, I got one last bigquestion for you.
Niko or entrepreneurs born
Nico (40:33):
or are they made.
I don't know if I have an answerto that.
I think in my case, I wasdefinitely born an entrepreneur.
Like for me it was alwayssomething, but I knew it on my
soul that I was an entrepreneurand I couldn't have it any other
way.
But I know for a fact that thereare other people that are kind
of entrepreneurs by chance, likethey start doing something and
(40:56):
it work and they'reentrepreneurs.
So yeah, I, I can speak aboutmy, uh, experience and it was
like I was born an entrepreneurhardcore.
I
Russel (41:04):
mean, I love a good born story, but so I'm hearing I was
born, but I understand they canbe made.
That's yeah, we'll sum that up.
Yeah.
I think that's right there.
There's no one right way or oneway.
It takes all kinds.
if people wanna know more aboutWhite Canvas or Loop three,
where can they go
Nico (41:21):
so they can hit our website?
It's uh w canvas.com or loopthree studio.com.
Russel (41:27):
There you have it.
Awesome.
Well, Nico, thank you so muchfor taking the time outta your
schedule to chat with us heretoday.
So many lessons about justdiving in and the power of that
to, the power of positioning andlearning to say no.
So many great insights and Ireally appreciate you taking the
time to share those with ustoday.
Nico (41:48):
Thank you for having me.
It was super fun.
Russel (41:51):
Thank you for listening to an agency story podcast where
every story helps you write yourown, subscribe, share, and join
us again for more real stories,lessons learned, and
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Nico (42:13):
When I was doing this PlayStation two stuff, I was
four 15 years old.
So at some point we need to getcheaper PlayStations in order to
sell and make a better profit.
So there was, uh, MSN like myMicrosoft Messenger, and we
found this guy online who wasselling really cheap
PlayStations.
So we say, all right, we hit thechatbot.
(42:35):
So they say, all right, like wehave the PlayStations and we are
in, in a little town like.
Two hours away from, from, soyou can send us the money over
whatever.
And we were discussing, theywere sending the pricing.
The pricing was good, was like20% off the market.
So say, alright, we'lldefinitely we'll do that, but
we'll tell all right, like weare gonna go there and we'll go
(42:57):
and see the PlayStations.
My business partner, uh, dad,uh, he drove us there to find
the PlayStations and when wewere there it was like, Hey,
there's no one here.
And they were creating all thestory about that they have the
PlayStations in customs orwhatever, but definitely we made
it to the spot or to location onthe street and we were ringing
(43:19):
some bells and ringing neighborsand say, Hey, like.
These guys are sellingPlayStations and they told us,
no, no, there are a lot ofpeople coming here.
This is, they're trying to stealyou.
So we went there.
We have, um.
Two hour trip to go to a littletown to buy some PlayStations,
but it was good that they didn'trob us or get our money for the
(43:40):
PlayStations.
Russel (43:41):
Yeah.
Crisis averted another majorjackpot opportunity.
Missed air quotes.
Um, but yeah, it sounds likeyou, you made it out about as
good as you can.
Just a, a little, a few bucks ingas in some
Nico (43:52):
time.
Yeah.
But we was this really amazingsandwich on the side of the
highway, so it, it was a funday.
There you go.
There you go.
And a learning experience aswell.
Russel (44:02):
It kind of just falls in the realm of, if it sounds too
good to be true, it probably is.
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