August 3, 2025 • 39 mins
Company: Cro Metrics
Guests: Gwen Hammes
Year Started: 2011
Employees: 50-100
Gwen Hammes, Co-CEO of Cro Metrics, shares her journey of taking over leadership, not by replicating the past, but by evolving it. In this episode, Gwen shares what happens when you step into a founder’s shoes and choose to grow the team before the business.
Key Takeaways
- The biggest risk in leadership transitions
- Why growing your people first leads to better client outcomes
- The “micro-step” mindset that unlocks clarity in career growth
- A creative approach to training the team
- How to build a leadership structure that complements, not competes
Details for an agency planning workshop event November 10th and 11th 2025.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Welcome to An Agency Storypodcast where we share real
stories of marketing agencyowners from around the world.
From the excitement of startingup the first big sale, passion,
doubt, fear, freedom, and theemotional rollercoaster of
growth, hear it all on An AgencyStory podcast.
(00:24):
An Agency Story podcast ishosted by Russel Dubree,
successful agency owner with aneight figure exit turned
business coach.
Enjoy the next agency story.
Russel (00:41):
Today's guest didn't just join the business to take
the reins from the founder.
She made it her mission to growthe company by growing the
people.
Welcome to An Agency Storypodcast.
I'm your host Russel.
In this episode, we are joinedby Gwen Hamus co CEO of Crow
Metrics.
Gwen didn't build crow metricsfrom the ground up, but she's
shaping its future in a big wayfrom a global career in
(01:03):
advertising to redefiningleadership with intentionality
and empathy, Gwen brings aunique blend of heart hustle and
high expectations.
We dive deep into what it reallymeans to grow with the team
first, how she's intentionallynavigating the complexities of
transitioning leadership fromfounder to operator and why she
believes resilience andprogress, not perfection, drive
(01:26):
great agency cultures.
Enjoy the story.
Welcome to the show todayeveryone, I have Gwen Hammes
with Cro Metrics with us heretoday.
Thank you so much for being onthe show today, Gwen.
Gwen (01:37):
Thanks so much for having me.
Russel (01:38):
If you don't mind, just kick us off right off the bat,
tell us what Cro Metrics doesand who do you do it for?
Gwen (01:43):
As I always say, and this may be an overly simplistic way,
but I say we make the interneteasier for people to get what
they're looking for, right?
If you think about consumersthat wanna buy socks, like with
one of our clients as Bombas,how do we make that an easier
situation for them?
If you think about, you know,donors trying to donate to
causes that are important tothem, how do we make that
easier?
Even something like, um,patients, you know, how do we
(02:06):
help them solve kind of theirsymptoms through some of our
healthcare clients, like a forumhealth?
Russel (02:09):
Real good, practical examples of what you do.
In 2025, I'll take as simplisticas we can get all day, every
day.
Wonderful way to explain that.
We're gonna find out all ofthings agency life.
We have no shortage of greattopics that we're gonna talk
about today, but I'm interestedright in the current moment
about young Gwen and, you know,where, where was she coming up
in the world?
Tell us about Young Gwen.
Gwen (02:30):
I'm gonna take us way back.
I actually went to college as aSpanish major and I got into
college and my mom said, nobodyis going to pay you to speak
Spanish.
Get another major.
Russel (02:39):
Why was that your major?
What was the thought processthere?
Gwen (02:42):
I always just, I've loved learning languages and that's
still a passion of mine.
I say I can, you know, I knowenough Portuguese to be
dangerous in Rio or Sao Paulo,and I'm currently learning, um,
French and Italian.
It's just something I think forme, it was less about the actual
learning of languages and it wasmore about the ability to get to
know and connect with morepeople.
That's been a thread throughoutmy life, I'd say, and I think
(03:04):
why ending up in originallyadvertising and now marketing
makes a lot of sense for mebecause it's about getting to
know people and I'm a bigbeliever in living in and having
worked in Mexico City, I studiedabroad in Argentina, like we're
more similar than we aredifferent.
But getting to know the nuancesand what makes people tick and
the way language and food andart and history has just such an
impact on people's livedexperiences, I think, um, is
(03:28):
just something that lights me upand fascinates me every day.
Russel (03:31):
All right.
I'm sold.
To your point, great throughline here.
And so yeah you were going onand you were saying how that
path was gonna work out for you?
Gwen (03:37):
I switched my major, um, to a very employable major of
economics, which, um, I lovedbecause I was in the more of
liberal arts side of things.
It was about how the worldworked.
I think you're sensing a themehere.
Um, but I know I didn't wannabecome an economist.
I like math, I don't love mathto the extent I would need to,
and I, I knew I wasn't gonna getmy PhD.
(03:58):
I had a sense it could bemarketing, it could be something
in, you know, insights,something like that.
I studied abroad, my junior ofcollege in Argentina.
Since the seasons are flipflopped, um, I basically had the
summer, I had December throughMarch where I was down there.
My parents, once again, verysage advice, said, if you have a
reason to stay, if you can get ajob or an internship, you can
stay.
Otherwise you gotta come backhere for three months and, and
(04:20):
work before going back for the,the next semester.
One of my mentors now still tothis day, I met him, he was an
expat down there, and he said,hey, I could use, a young
student to help us out, but Ican't pay you, but if you're
willing and interested, I'd loveto have you on board.
He was, at the time it wascalled Pragma FCB, so FCB one of
the big agencies.
He brought me on, worked for himfor that summer, and then he
(04:40):
hired me outta college inChicago.
And as I say, like, the rest ishistory.
So I was very lucky to havefallen in I think, to the right
industry.
Russel (04:49):
Very cool.
You kind of highlighted thereand you know, we have a lot of
founders on this, but notalways.
You are not a founder of theagency.
I've got some curiosities aboutthat.
But before that, I mean, like,when you're navigating your
career, obviously you found, youknow, this thing you're
passionate about, good at andhad some good opportunities to
there.
Where did you think you weretrying to take your career, um,
from young Gwen to as thatprogressed?
Gwen (05:10):
I always say I'm a, I'm a recovering type A personality.
Go back to young Gwen, highlytype A.
I was like, I'm gonna do this.
I really wanted to move backabroad, and so every year in my
annual, performance review,they'd say, and what are your
career goals?
I'd say, I'd love to moveabroad.
Four years later, they knockedon my door, this was early
2000s.
They said, we're hiring for anaccount supervisor in Mexico.
(05:30):
I was like, this is perfect.
I'm gonna go down to Mexico.
I'm gonna do two years, studyfor the GMAT, have this great
experience, get into B School.
I was pretty certain at thetime, like B-School is about
getting to know contacts, maybecreating a business.
So I always had kind of thisentrepreneurial bone in my body.
But as life happens, I ended upmeeting my husband down in
Mexico City and all of my plans,uh, for, for that part of a, a
(05:53):
journey or path went out thewindow.
Russel (05:55):
Those darn husbands always ruining plans.
Gwen (05:57):
I know I made the right decision.
Russel (05:59):
Sounds like that's worked out.
You said changed plans and allthat went out the window.
Where did you veer to fromthere?
Gwen (06:04):
I'm a big believer in, it's not just about like what is
the goal, but like how do youfeel about it?
I always tell my teams like, Iwanna wake up every morning
excited about what I have.
If there's a day or two days, ortwo weeks or two months when I'm
not that's usually the signalfor a change.
That's always the advice I giveto young people.
Always check in with yourself,see how you're doing.
And To be honest, I was alwaysreally excited and really happy
(06:27):
about what I was doing.
I think the world of advertisingfor me, because you work on
different clients in differentcategories with different
problems to solve in differentconsumer groups, there is never
a dull day.
You have to be resilient and youhave to be agile and you have to
be able to pivot.
I've always thrived on that.
I am also a big believer ineverything happens for the best.
And so I think I was meant to,to really build and grow my
(06:49):
career in advertising.
It really wasn't until probablyabout a year ago now at this
point that I said, hey, maybethere's something else.
I've been in the industry, I'vegotten to do amazing things.
I've had Super Bowl ads.
I was like, I think this is mymoment to make a pivot, to focus
more on where can we drivetangible results.
To work for a smaller agency, togo more independent, where I can
have my direct fingerprints onit.
(07:10):
Um, and I was lucky enough toactually meet Chris Newman, our
founder, uh, and he brought meon board to be his co CEO with
the goal over time to, to, tohim, as I say, he can go into
full founder mode, which hedoesn't like.
He's like, I don't wanna befounder mode.
But really, I think focus onwhat that longer term future is
and how our product, um, canreally evolve in a, way that
(07:30):
just catapults where we'reheaded and where consumers are
headed and where clients andbrands are to add value.
Russel (07:35):
When you came to that realization, that decision, how
did you meet Chris, did you haveto go through a lot of vetting
and other agencies and companiesout there before you, you found
the right one?
What was that process like foryou?
Gwen (07:45):
I think it's one of those things, you don't realize how
great of a network you haveuntil you tap into them.
It was really me just and inthat moment I'm, I'm big into
like behavioral science andmicro steps.
The first thing I did, I waslike, all right, I'm gonna I'm
gonna tell some people what I'mthinking about and I just put it
out there and I just said, hey,I'm thinking about making a
move.
I'm thinking about making aswitch.
(08:06):
I'm looking to be more in kindof growth marketing, independent
agency, and something smallerthan I've been at.
By doing that, I, I don't wannasay the rest took care of
itself, but it was actually, Igot, an outreach from a
recruiter and we just startedtalking and then I met Chris and
I met some other people on theteam and it was, as you can
imagine, a bit of a longerprocess because it wasn't a, I
think for him bringing on a coCEO, this was something he'd
(08:27):
never done before.
But also for me it was gonna bea big, a big change.
It was just nice to really getto know him.
Some of the key people, theboard, um, get under the
business and some of the clientsbefore jumping in feet first.
Russel (08:39):
First big takeaway from the day, but I liked what you
said earlier about, importanceof checking in with yourself and
really taking the time toprocess what you're feeling and
going through.
But the second one there is, putwhat you want into the universe.
That does tend to, it's the lawof attraction and all that good
stuff that seems to always workout well.
Gwen (08:57):
I think it's that.
Also I just keep, I, I've beentalking a lot recently about
these micro steps, like, what isthat teeny tiny thing that's
standing in your way?
And so In that case, it waslike, just letting people know
what's on my mind and what I'minterested in.
It's one of those things, it'slike a muscle, like the more you
do it, the more comfortable itgets, and then the more people
are like, oh, you know who youshould talk to, you should talk
to this person.
I don't know, you know, wherethey are, what they're thinking
(09:19):
about, but you find out, yournetwork grows.
The connections grow.
Some opportunities were able topresent themselves in a way that
if I had just tried it from thevery traditional sense of just
reaching out directly torecruiters or keeping it in my
orb, probably wouldn't haveactually happened.
Russel (09:33):
I love that.
You found this, this gem of anagency, and how long ago was
this?
Where are we at in thechronology of all this?
Gwen (09:39):
January, so I just started, I'm, I'm just about,
five months in.
Russel (09:42):
Okay.
Just even that process,'cause I,I think there's probably a lot
of founders and owners that,that want their Gwen in the
world.
What was that process that youactually went through to,
determine not only for yourselfit's a good fit, but that Chris
and the agency said, yep, Gwen,we want Gwen in this seat.
Gwen (09:57):
I think it was a lot.
There were multiple pieces,right?
I probably spent, I don't know,in total probably 10 hours with
Chris.
He actually came to Chicago.
He had another meeting here, sowe grabbed dinner.
A lot of the conversations ofjust like the ease of them and
the sharing of ideas, thesharing, kind of like the way
that I think about growing thebusiness, the way I think about
positioning capabilities.
The way I even think about, youknow, how I always say like, Cro
(10:19):
Metrics is the best kept secretin the digital marketing
landscape.
We have amazing clients, we'redoing great work, but nobody
knows about us.
How can we get out there?
He brought a lot of other peoplein.
cme, We have an advisory board,which is great because we don't
have any outside investors, butthey truly are there to advise.
I had, meetings with two of theboard members and um, and it was
funny because recently we were,uh, we were doing a people
(10:42):
summit.
We do a lot of these kind oflike in-person people summits
every couple months and chriswas talking about, he's it was
your writing sample that got youthe job.
I was like, I never did awriting sample.
What are you talking about?
He said, well, remember Katie'semail, she followed up and he
said, that counted as yourwriting sample.
She and I probably had like anhour long conversation.
She's one of the board membersand following up.
She was one of the like salesVPs at DHL.
(11:04):
She was a, a core person kind ofbuilding that business in the,
the eighties and nineties.
She was like, Hey, just a couplefollow up questions, like what
was your biggest people problemand how did you solve it?
What was, you know, that failureand what did you learn from it?
What has been your greatestsuccess?
Very innocuous questions, butof, of course, I, I gave, I was
beared myself to some of myfailures, some of my people
(11:25):
problems.
The successes are always alittle bit easier to write
about.
It was just an interesting thingbecause I think Chris was
looking for somebody that had avision that was able to express
themselves, that was be able tobe persuasive.
But in the process, one of thethings, this was, as we were
getting close to, I'd say a, amutual decision, he said, well,
what scares you?
There's two things that scareme.
One is I don't know what I don'tknow.
(11:45):
Anytime you're going somewherenew, you're, you're taking a
leap, you're taking a risk,you're taking a chance.
You have to, again, have thequantitative of like, okay.
The clients are lining up whereyou're headed, line is lining
up, you know, all that.
But also just like how you feel.
The second thing is, which Ithink it might be more
important, is I said, I am theexact opposite of you.
He's a mechanical engineer, grewup in Silicon Valley.
(12:05):
He's very black and white.
He is, one of the most smart andbrilliant people you'll meet.
I am much more relational.
I'm very comfortable in thegray.
I said, are, is this gonna,like, would this work out?
Do you want somebody like me?
He was so self-aware and said, Ineed somebody like you.
He said, I actually, I wasinterviewing somebody that was
like a me, but 10 years earlierin their career and he said, I
(12:26):
came to the realization, and Ithink he said he got some
outside perspective saying like,you don't need another, you, you
need somebody that cancompliment you.
And you know, Everybody asks meabout this like co CEO thing.
They're like, well, how is itgoing?
I'm like, honestly, it's great.
I feel like we're on the samepage and when we're not, he's a
big believer in, um, in strongdebate.
So I think I've gotten to be,become an even better debater
(12:46):
than I had in the past.
We always, you know, find a wayforward and, and we make
progress.
It's only been five months, butI think so far so good.
I'm really excited about the,the future that we're building.
Russel (12:56):
I love the, the, the depth that you shared there and,
and you know, my own experience.
Had a similar process probably acouple times where I think we
brought on someone that, call ita key leader into the business.
When I really do think about it,it wasn't an overly formal
process.
We weren't thinking too hard.
It was just spending a lot oftime with that individual, just
understanding how they think,how do they solve problems, do
we align on just, how a businessshould generally function and
(13:17):
operate.
It's not really ultimately aboutcore tactics or something like
that, but there's just alignmentin values and thought processes
and that just takes a goodamount of time of connecting
with someone and spending withthem to, um, you know, to learn
all those things about anotherperson.
That sounds like kind of whatthe process is you went through
there.
Gwen (13:34):
What would you say would be the things you were scared
about?
Maybe bringing a senior personon?
Russel (13:38):
I think a different problem might be like, maybe I
wasn't scared enough.
I don't know.
Honestly, I, I, I tend to be avery optimistic, you know,
we'll, we'll figure it out typeof individual.
Run on good vibe so that mightbe the problem.
Wasn't scared enough, uh, in, inthose situations.
I did learn to trust thoseinstincts and just, hey, is this
a good human being?
One that's, that's, I know howfar that can carry someone.
(13:59):
Are they a good human?
Maybe that's the fear is if, youknow, is there a facade or
something that I can't see, um,or something along those lines.
I think that would be myultimate fear is letting someone
step in that, when push came toshove, would they uphold the
same level of values that, youknow, we had when we were
starting running and, andgrowing the company?
Gwen (14:15):
I always say I'm a big believer in people like to work
with people they like.
It really just comes down tothat core truth.
To your point, like if you'rehonest, if you work hard, if you
put the goals and the needs of,you know, the business ahead of
ego or personal advantage, Imean, you're, you're usually at
least a, a running start aheadof, of maybe where you could be.
Russel (14:34):
That's the key word there.
Ego.
I'm afraid of ego because I knowego causes problems.
You said it so, so greatlythere.
Because it, I mean, it, it is,and I talk to, you know, other
businesses that are inpartnerships, whether they're
life partnerships as well, orjust business partnerships.
It follows so many of the samemechanics, like a real life
partnership and you've got to beable to, you know, live and work
(14:55):
and do a lot of other thingswith this other human being to,
to make this all, all, all jiveand that even imp applies to the
rest of the team.
So It's such a very human thingwe live in this agency world.
Gwen (15:06):
It's, It really is.
It's our greatest asset is our,is our talent and our people.
Being able to, to recruit, youknow, retain and, and grow, like
when you can get those thingsrunning, you are, you are just
unstoppable.
Russel (15:19):
I'm curious.
You said you haven't been doingthis very long, um, or, you
know, into it a few months asfar as, you know, actual Cro
metrics.
But what is one thing that youwere just able to bring your
experience in your thoughtprocess and hit the ground
running, and what is, what issomething you maybe didn't quite
expect to encounter, that's beena little new or maybe just a
surprise?
Gwen (15:36):
I think there's a couple things.
I was pretty ambitious rightwhen I hit the ground running,
'cause I know, you know, we'veall, we all know about a hundred
days.
The big things were, there werea lot of like, um, com, like,
organizational foundation piecesthat just needed a lot of
clarifying and putting a finerpoint on.
Whether it was, you know, Istarted out saying our, our
areas of focus, we're gonna growour clients, we're gonna grow
our talent, and we're gonna growour metrics.
(15:58):
I said in that order'cause whenyou do what's right for the
clients, you open upopportunities for our people and
then in turn we grow.
I was always a big person, likewhenever you put growing the
agency first, you are doomed tofail.
That is a recipe for disasterbecause you're not adding value,
you're not solving problems,you're not putting the needs of
your clients and theirbusinesses ahead of yours.
You're definitely not puttingyour people first.
(16:19):
Pretty quickly I did that.
Since then, we now have, ourlonger, five-year plan that's
mapped out that we just revealedat our all-hands.
But my favorite thing, and Ialways say this was even like
stepping outta my my comfortzone a little bit, is I started
a Growing With Gwen series.
One of the things, again, as Ithink about how do you grow
people.
I'm sure you've had the samesituation with your agency.
(16:40):
People always say like, I wantmore training.
When you think about it, it'sreally, you know, it's like that
70% is on the job training, 20%might be more informal training,
and it's like 10% is reallyhardcore training.
Our big thing is on the jobtraining.
We talk about that a lot.
We give people experiences, wegive them challenges, and we
guide, like have those kind oflike guideposts, like this is
training you, learning thisthing is a new skill and it's
(17:02):
even better because it's realand actual.
But for kind of some of theinformal training, what I've
done is I've created a videoseries called Growing With Gwen.
which.
My goal is actually to expand itinto LinkedIn and making it a
bigger thing.
But whether it's topics like,and a lot of these are true, you
know, they're true to me.
They're learnings I've had overmy life that help, help me, um,
professionally, but alsopersonally.
One of the videos was 1% betterevery day, and that comes from
(17:24):
this wellness influencerfollower, um, called Kayla
Jeter.
Just talking about, again, whatare those micro steps?
What are those little things youcan do to help get to where
you're trying to go?
Another one is, you know, thefiguring it out effect, right?
I think we all know, like whenyou have people in talent that
can just figure it out, that injust the sense of even trying,
they might not get to the rightanswer, but they're probably
gonna get a little bit furtherthan they can.
(17:46):
And so again, I probably haveabout 25 of these videos now
that, you know, every coupledays I'll post, um, I'll post on
our, all agency channel.
The last one was actually a funone.
I did one on, uh, Friday beforeeverybody broke for Memorial Day
and it was all about the powerof daydreaming.
We were just at a client lastweek and we did a kind of a, a
FY30 Vision setting, and weactually went outside and we
(18:08):
were in the grass.
It was all very kind of zen.
Russel (18:11):
I feel like I need access to these growing with
Gwyn videos.
Now it's like I want to see thisvideo and, and learn about the
power of daydreaming.
Gwen (18:18):
It's great'cause you never, we never create the space
to do that, right?
We're always like, heads down, Ihave these, these key
priorities, or I have these firedrills, or I have these, you
know, phone calls to make oremails to write.
Just creating the space todaydream and how to think about
that, um, and how to practiceit.
Again, just create space I thinkis a powerful piece.
Russel (18:36):
Amongst all the other topics.
If we kind of take a step backand, you know, I feel like this
was a big jump for us in anagency is once you get kind of
some of the hurdles of how do weget enough clients in here to do
what we wanna do business-wise?
We gotta deal with this teamand, how do we create a great
environment not only for today,but for tomorrow?
It seems like any agency that'sdone that well has made a very
intentional, deep seatedinvestment in, in training,
(19:00):
which it sounds like, you know,you're, you're going through the
process too and in a very uniqueand, and fun way.
Gwen (19:04):
Absolutely.
I think it's one of those thingslike I'm a big, I'm a big
person.
I kind of joke, I'm like, it'sprobably'cause of my Chicago
roots, right?
We're very roll up your sleeves,get it done.
But I'm like, I'm never gonnaask anybody to do something I'm
not willing to do.
I take a lot of likeaccountability, whether it's
through these videos, we havelike an accelerator program
where we have future leaders andwe have a whole curriculum and
our exec team, we each takedifferent topics.
(19:27):
It's funny, actually, I justposted on LinkedIn one of the
ones from the other week, whichwas like, the real meeting
doesn't actually happen in themeeting.
Again, you're trying to kind ofhelp people see around corners
and think more expansivelybeyond the kind of well defined
work that they do.
What does it take to actuallymeet your clients where they are
not only as a when they're ontheir client hat, but like as a
person and as somebody that hashopes and dreams and fears and
(19:50):
pressure and anxieties and beingable, again, in the service
industry in which we are to beable to, to serve them and be
there for them in ways that gobeyond, the, the defined scope
of work that we have in placewith them.
Russel (20:02):
I love too, just kinda sharing, that it's more than
just learn analytics, learn,better add management or
improvement or something likethat.
That it's more foundational,kind of ethereal things that,
um, that just make people thinkdifferently and approach
problems differently andprobably makes it where you
don't have to solve some ofthose more tactical training,
aspects that you would otherwiseby teaching people to think
(20:24):
differently.
Gwen (20:25):
Yeah.
That's the goal.
Yeah.
Step by step.
Russel (20:27):
Yeah.
One, one day at a time.
One step back real quick and,and just to give people a sense
of just the, the dynamics thatyou're dealing with.
How many folks work for Cro andare you distributed, hybrid, uh,
in person?
Just give us a sense of theenvironment.
Gwen (20:42):
We have about 50 people.
I say we are small yet mighty.
Especially if you look at someof the clients, I know I
mentioned a few of them before,but we really, we've been able
to get some kind of Fortune 100and Fortune 500 clients, which
is tremendous.
We are fully remote, um, andwe'll never have an office.
Our founder lives in Colorado.
I'm in Chicago.
We have people all spread outacross the 50 states.
(21:02):
We do think it, it's anadvantage, it does have its
challenges at times becauseeverything does have to be a
intentional connect, right?
Even if you're just yumingsomebody on Slack, you have to
put yourself out there asopposed to the serendipitous
connections.
We do try to have differenttypes of meetups.
We just had our whole companyall hands at the beginning of
May.
We do like IRL Connects forpeople.
Russel (21:23):
Very cool.
All right, well you just put outa big recruiting ad for a
potential talent out there.
Company retreats in Cancun.
Did you get to wow, your teamwith all your amazing Spanish?
Gwen (21:32):
We went to Cancun and there's actually some
significance.
When Chris Newman Art, ourfounder, founded the company, he
kind of had the idea actuallyin, um, uh, Eastly Moher.
There's kind of like a, an, aconnection and he always talks
about kind of feet in the sand,right?
When you're having hardconversations, when you're
building a business, when you'rethinking about where to go next,
you almost want your feet in thesand because nobody wants to
leave.
(21:52):
When you're sitting at a table,maybe you got a, michelada in
your hand and you're kind ofreally talking about the things.
There was significance on that.
Then, um, Hyatt InclusiveCollection's, one of our
clients, we actually stayed atthe Hyatt Ziva.
They were fantastic and amazing,and so we liked the fact we were
able to support, um, our clientas well doing that.
We got about a 95%, uh,attendance rate from everybody.
A couple people, you know, therewas a wedding, there was
(22:14):
somebody, you know, that had abig vacation already planned,
but it was great.
Russel (22:17):
That is really fascinating.
Resilience living abroad, I canonly imagine.
You probably have no shortage ofstories of how you sharpen and
gain those skills.
Gwen (22:25):
I did.
Speaking of figuring it out, so,um, you know, again, Chris had
been kind of going there onyears past.
They had done small hands therepreviously and you know, he
always, he always jokes that Ihave like resilience level
number six and I totallyattribute it to living in Mexico
City.
I can negotiate my way intoanything.
I can figure things out.
He said, hey, there's this placecalled Marbella that had full
(22:48):
octopus.
He's like, it's literally thebest octopus of my life.
He was like, if somebody can,if, if somebody could figure out
how we can get those deliveredto us, he's like, it's you.
I was kind of like, this iseither a test or he really wants
the octopus.
So I, you know, just Googledthe, the restaurant.
I called him up and I told himin Spanish, and you know, I'm
like, hey, we just want, youknow, five of these full
octopus, but can you have itdelivered and all this stuff.
(23:09):
He was like, well, we don'treally have delivery, but
there's a taxi stand outside.
Hold on, let me just go see ifthey can deliver it to you.
He comes back and he's justlike, yeah, they can do it.
We got connected on WhatsApp.
He told me how much it was gonnabe.
Sure enough, show, the guy showsup in the taxi cab with all the
octopus.
We pay him in pesos and, uh, andwe're on our way.
Everybody was very impressedthat I was able to convince a
(23:30):
local restaurant to, uh, putsome octopus in a cab without
any commitment of payment beforehe actually showed up, and it
all worked out.
Russel (23:37):
Speaking of, of resilience, uh, and, you know,
just all things what's going onin the world today, um, having
to be dynamic and on our toes,that's gotta be something that I
imagine is top of your mind ofhow do you manage the
organization?
How do you build resilienceamongst your team and, and what
does that look like in yourbusiness?
Gwen (23:53):
You said it earlier, right?
If you think about talent andeverybody's saying, how do you
get the best talent?
I truly believe it's, it'swithin each of us, right?
It's always even funny.
We call people talent, but it,it is about their capabilities
and their experience and theirexpertise.
My goal is to determine whatthat is and help them pull it
out of them.
There's a couple things in, inmy approach that I do.
(24:13):
The first, which is probablycommon sense, but it's like, how
do we get people to play totheir strengths?
Sometimes people know what thosestrengths are, but a lot of
times they don't.
It's funny because, I'm also abig person on, like, I want, I,
I'm always inviting people toraise their hand.
Any open roles we have or any,opportunities, we always say,
hey, raise your hand if you'reinterested in this.
Let's see how we can make thathappen.
I want people to feel they canbuild their careers here.
(24:34):
They have opportunities, theyhave all that kind of stuff.
And We were having thisconversation in the exec team
the other week because it waslike people might not even know
that they have a strength orthat they're interested in doing
something to even raise theirhand.
I had a coach many years agothat kind of had given me a bit
of a self-assessment, right?
On what are the things I lovedoing?
What are the things I hatedoing?
What are the things that I, I'dwanna do more of?
(24:56):
All of that kind of stuff.
I started circulating it aroundto people to help them come to
that, some of those realizationsfor themselves.
It's worked for me over time andit, it was a great way because
it's been, really, it's beenawesome to see over the last few
months how we have been able togive people those opportunities
or how somebody that you wouldnever think was interested in
(25:16):
even kind of switching into adifferent department has raised
their hand.
We've been able to make ithappen and they're thriving
there.
I think that's a big thing whereit's like when you can get
people, you know, number one,playing to their strengths.
Number two, having the abilityto raise their hand that gives
them the sense that they have abit more control.
Because when we are living in aworld where things are changing,
you know, almost on a dailybasis, whether that's on tariffs
(25:38):
or, you know, soon to be taxesor, you know, anything else
that's happening with global,uh, geopolitical situations.
People wanna have a sense ofcontrol because there's so
little that they can control inthe world around'em.
I think that's a big piece thatwe try to do.
The other thing that I broughtforward was what I call like the
dynamic talent model.
When I first started, again, oneof my 90 days, uh, was I wanted
(25:58):
to do as many meet and greetswith people individually as I
could.
I would get to know them, butI'd always ask two questions,
right?
Number one, what makes you stayat Cro Metrics?
Why have you stuck around?
I'm trying to get to like,what's that secret sauce?
Number two was, if you had amagic wand, it could change one
thing, what would it be?
And you know, Just like anyagencies in the past, there's
been, you know, layoffs andreorgs and things like that.
What was clear is people justwanted more like predictability
(26:22):
and certainty and stability.
Again, coming from the creativeagency side of the world, that
we used a lot of freelancers fora lot of different ways.
I said, hey guys, we can create,call it like these different
rings.
We have our core FTEs, full-timeemployees.
They're the ones you know,client facing, doing the hard
work, tip of the spear leadingthe capabilities.
Then we have our contractorring, which is really, we have
(26:42):
a, a group that are kind ofcontract to hire.
As we do have new roles, ifthere's not somebody internally,
how can they have an opportunitythen if they're not, upward, we
don't have a good talent mix, wecan recruit.
Then we have a broader kind ofcontractor ring, and that's a
mix of like nearshore andoffshore.
As we think about that, thewhole point on marketing is it
ebbs and flows, right?
We'd love to be able to predictit to T.
That's one of the hardest thingsfor any of us to do.
(27:05):
By having this, these contractorrings, we're able to, as we get
more work in, expand that.
When we have less work we canshrink it, and have a lot more
stability and predictability forour full-time employees so that,
they know they have the work.
We can be as committed to themas they are to us, and we're
able to manage any of those ebbsand flows through that way.
(27:25):
That was one of the first thingsthat I, brought forward.
We've gotten, good results.
We've gotten good feedback fromit.
I think we're having even moretransparent conversations with
our contractors, so they're alsounderstanding like, hey, this is
working for, for both of us, andlet's keep that conversation
open.
But that's just another kind oftool in our toolbox because
again, we talk about howimportant talent is, and a big
(27:46):
piece of it is making them feellike they have some of that
security as well.
Russel (27:49):
It's kinda like you developed your own minor league
system within your agencyrecruitment process, right?
There's the big leagues and thenthere's AAA down to A and just
being honest with people aboutwhere they fit in that ecosystem
and, and navigating'em where thepieces need to fall when they
need to fall.
Gwen (28:07):
I would say like, we don't have it all figured out.
But I think the, the intent isI'm also a big like, progress
over perfection person.
Let's make progress.
We optimize consumerexperiences.
We are constantly testing andlearning things for ourselves.
Let's test this out.
Let's see what the right mix is,let's see what the right levels
are, you know, and let's getthat feedback from the people
involved and then we cancontinue to, to optimize and go
(28:29):
from there.
I almost never wanna get itperfect'cause that feels too
exact, but how do we just learnand, and continue to ebb and ebb
with it?
Russel (28:37):
I love that approach 'cause it, it, it's like this
notion like, stop worrying ifthere's a right answer or a
perfect answer.
Go down the path, go down thejourney, and if you do that
intentionally, you're gonnaprobably still up in a, in a
good or better place.
It's probably gonna be differentthan what you could have
predicted.
But how, how really important.
I try to, try to communicatethat to folks a lot of, embrace
the journey.
You just have to embrace thejourney,'cause it's too easy to
(28:58):
get caught up in the result andthat's gonna swing our moods or
how whatever you, it's gonnatake us down some wrong paths if
we, if we get too caught up inthe end.
Gwen (29:05):
I think too, like I love that phrase of embrace the
journey, because what that doesis it also invites other people
in.
I'm a big believer, I do nothold, you know, I don't corner
the market on good ideas.
I kinda put some things out intothe world, but I've been really
impressed by when people willthen come and say like, hey,
have you thought about doing itthis way?
Or, hey, if we're trying to geta little bit better on this
thing, have you ever thoughtabout this?
(29:26):
Then it's like, I haven't, canyou go run with that, like take
ownership of it?
And again, it's just, It's greatto see how people are kind of
rising to the occasion in newways because just of the power
of ideas and innovation thatexists.
Russel (29:38):
That makes me think of, I was thinking earlier as you
were describing that, um, it's aproblem for a lot of agencies
where they get in this modewhere I think, you know, they
only rely on the top what theyperceive as 20% of their talent
to do 80% of the work.
That becomes a very hard cycleto eventually break out of.
But, uh, I've always just hadthis, you know, regardless of
what size your business,regardless of what business
(29:59):
you're in, whoever can get themost out of all of their team
and talent, that's who's gonnasucceed in the marketplace.
That's the kind of company thatcan move mountains.
That endeavor, while not easy,is extremely important and
worthwhile.
Gwen (30:11):
Totally.
That's why I just go always backto the, like, if you wake up in
the morning excited about whatyou're doing, like, we as
business owners have a betterchance that they're, that if we
can get everybody to feel thatway, maybe not every day, but
you know more, more than that,nine outta 10 days, like we're
gonna be in a, we're gonna be ina better place.
So what, What do we need to doas leaders to help create that
(30:31):
for them?
Russel (30:31):
There you go.
There's a mic drop questionright there.
Way to put a pin on thatconversation.
Um, one, One of the things, justkinda curious, um, you know, in
stepping into this role, whatfears did you have?
Taking the reins, I should say,uh, of a founder, uh, can't be
an easy task.
I just know there's, in so manycompanies, there's just such a
relational tie to a founder.
It's kind of like, this is theway mom always did, or dad
(30:53):
always did it in a family.
What was that like, I guess fromthat perspective?
Gwen (30:56):
This goes into like, you don't know what you don't know,
and you don't know what youdon't know until like the rubber
hits the road, right?
It's like that firstdisagreement or that first
tension point or that first, um,just difference of opinion.
I think that, that was thething.
Kind of going into it, I willsay what was helpful, again, is
Chris is very self-aware, so hewas, I mean, more than I think
(31:18):
any, almost anybody I've met intelling me where some of you
know, his areas of opportunitywere.
But I absolutely was, wasscared.
I've been honest even with ourteam of like, I would know
pretty quickly if this weren'tgonna work out, if any idea I
had, he said, no, we're notgonna do that.
We've always done this this way.
Alternatively, he brought me onto help grow the business.
Again, he comes from anengineering background.
(31:38):
He's exceptional at product, buthe's like, I haven't worked for
these huge professional servicecompanies.
So I also tell people like, I'mhere to help grow the business,
grow each of you, grow ourclients.
If I don't or if I can't, Iprobably won't be around for
long term.
Now, I'm gonna move heaven andearth to make sure I do.
But I think that's been the verypositive piece.
I mentioned to you before westarted, he's uh, he's taking
(32:00):
the summer off and I thinkthat's a big vote of confidence
to his faith in me and hisbelief, in my leadership style,
also in my, you know, my, mybusiness, uh, decision making
abilities so that he can takethose three months off.
I'm excited for him to come backbecause as we've we have kind of
like three, three ways we'rethinking about the business.
I'd say the biggest one, whichis the longer term, is like, how
(32:21):
are we creating our future?
How are we thinking about, whatis to come or what may come?
I told him, I'm like, whenyou're back, I want you fully
focused on that.
That's where your mind can, canbe thinking about that.
'Cause he's very tuned in toeverything happening.
Not just from a gen, gen AIstandpoint, but from a quantum
physics and from all of theseother parts and pieces that will
become our reality in the nextfive to 10 years.
Russel (32:42):
When you guys, obviously he's taking the summer off and,
and you guys are taking thisprocess slow.
Do you have a longer term exitplan ironed out between the two
of you or is it just one step ata time, we'll figure it out,
going kind back to thatiterative mentality?
Gwen (32:55):
It's definitely one step at a time.
He has no, intentions of sellingand I, I did not join this to be
part of a sale.
I joined this to be able to putmy fingerprints on something and
grow it and take it to the nextlevel.
I think we've had some reallygood progress and traction, you
know, and my, my goal would behow do we double it?
Not just for ourselves, but howdo we grow our headcount?
How do we promote from within?
(33:15):
As I mentioned before, we havean accelerator program of future
leaders.
They're, you know, relativelyyoung in their career, but like,
I would love to have thoseopportunities in which they can
step in and they can lead,bigger clients that have more
for it.
So, I mean, it's funny becauseit's like, yeah, we have like,
we think about five to 10 yearsahead, but I'm also very focused
on let's not get over our skis.
(33:36):
We need to, you know, if, Ialmost think, and he, he and I
have talked about like, allright, here are my goals for Cro
Metrics, for our team, for ourclients in the next three
months.
Because when you come back, Iwould love to be able to be
like, Chris, here are the thingswe've done.
I also think, you know, the endof December here, here's what
are my goals for myself, um, andnot myself, but for all of us
included.
Because I think if we, while Ilove daydreaming, we also have
(33:58):
to be really grounded inreality.
The reality is there's a lot ofuncertainty that's happening
right now and we're hearing itfrom our clients every day.
We're also trying to help themin new and innovative ways
through this uncertainty to makesure that we're, you know, we're
that valued partner and we'renot just business as usual while
they're dealing with all thisother stuff, but we're able to
(34:18):
help them think about like, hey,is consumer behavior is
changing?
Is their experiences arechanging?
How do you make sure you'rewinning more than your fair
share, you know, of their mind,of their wallet, of their heart,
all of those kinds of things?
Russel (34:30):
Maybe, as you put it, now more than ever, it is not
the time to get too consumedwith what the future's gonna
look like.
Don't get over your skis, as yousaid.
Just really focus on the journeyand the present and doing the
best you can with, with puttingsome stakes and goals out in, in
front of you.
But don't get too consumed with,the long term game here.
Gwen (34:47):
Exactly.
I think that's, you know, that'sprobably true for everybody,
right?
You're always in this, um, thislike continuum, right?
Of like, we need to know wherewe're going.
We need to know how we'regetting there.
We're not a public company, butI had a client years ago say,
how did he say it?
It was like, you get the, thebenefit of thinking of the long
term when you're delivering onthe short term.
I think that also rings true forme of, I'm in this role to help
(35:08):
make sure we're steadily headingin the right direction, and that
hopefully is, allowing me tothink more long term about this.
Russel (35:15):
It sounds like it's working out well.
Very fabulous.
Great insights, great takeawaysthere, and curious, as we start
to wrap things up here, yourinsight on one last big question
for you, Gwen.
Are entrepreneurs born or arethey made?
Gwen (35:27):
I love that question.
You've obviously hit the nail onthe head.
It's is it nature or is itnurture?
While I can't speak foreverybody, I can speak more for
myself, I think it was moremade.
I am a big believer in like mytime living in working in Mexico
for five years.
Seeing entrepreneurshipliterally every single day,
whether it was the, person thathad to hit the streets selling
(35:48):
candy and gum to make a livingto the ladies selling tamales on
the corner to just the way Ialways said, miracles happened
every day.
There was no time, there was nomoney, there was, you know, all
these roadblocks and they justmade things happen.
I believe for myself it was moremade through those experiences.
I don't think if I had that, youknow, being a kid growing up in
Chicago, an original Spanishmajor, I probably would've ended
(36:10):
up here.
Russel (36:11):
Wow.
Very powerful.
When you think about thoseexperiences and, and how your
skills and talents and abilitieswere forged, um, thank you so
much for sharing that.
If people wanna know more aboutCro Metrics, where can they go?
Gwen (36:21):
You can follow me on LinkedIn, uh, Gwen Hammes.
You can follow Cro Metrics orcrometrics.com.
Russel (36:27):
Well, thank you as well, Gwen.
So many great takeaways fromjust the, the power of, you
know, for bringing on greattalent to spending time with
them, to, um, trying to, how,how do we ask these questions of
ourselves to get the most out ofeveryone on our team and uplift
them and make them rise to theirhighest level of achievement.
So many great, wonderfulinsights and takeaways today and
really appreciate you taking thetime to share those with us.
Gwen (36:48):
It's been a joy hanging out with you this afternoon.
Thank you so much for the timeand the conversation.
We hope you've enjoyed thisepisode of An Agency Story
podcast where we share realstories of marketing agency
owners from around the world.
Are you interested in being aguest on the show?
Send an email topodcast@performancefaction.com.
(37:12):
An Agency Story is brought toyou by Performance Faction.
Performance Faction offersservices to help agency owners
grow their business to 5 milliondollars and more in revenue.
To learn more, visitperformancefaction.com.
We have this thing called the Cro Show.
(37:33):
We have a number of clients, wehave a number of different, um,
optimizations and tests thatwe're running.
It's a little bit of, you know,the Price Is Right type of a
thing.
We have one of our directors,his name is Travis, he used to
be a comedian.
He is really able to bring thattalent through to what, uh, to
what he does in terms of puttingit on.
I witnessed my very first liveCro Show at our all-hands.
(37:54):
Whether it was from makingpeople wear funny hats when they
were up presenting to, you know,having kind of some of the
banter with them.
He is one of those guys that Ijust think at some point we're
gonna lose him because he isgoing to, you know, be the next
Bob Barker or the next, uh,Steve Harvey out there running
his, his own, I don't know ifhe'll ever get to be official
(38:15):
for Cro Show, but, uh, runninghis own talk show and, uh, and
game show out there.
Russel (38:19):
What is the basis of the Cro show?
Is it just like a, a game, like?
Gwen (38:23):
Yeah.
Basically what it is, is for,um, so part of what we do by
making kind of the interneteasier for all these people, um,
is we're constantly running A/Btests.
We're seeing what works and whatdoesn't.
As I always say, it's like we'refollowing the behavior.
We're following what people do,not what they say.
A lot of times it's like, youknow, hey, we ran this test.
Was it a winner or was it aloser?
People are constantly kind oflike guessing on all of these
(38:44):
different tests.
One of our strategists will getup, they'll talk about it.
Travis is really kind of the,the MC of this whole thing to,
to make it, uh, lighthearted andfun and engaging.
It's fascinating because whatyou, what you always kind of
assume, like, you know, like, weall have good guts when it comes
to consumers and marketing andwhat's gonna work and what
doesn't.
A lot of times it shows you likeconsumer behavior is a
(39:06):
fascinating thing and, andtesting into it, optimizing
against it is, is really the wayto go to get to better business
outcomes.
Welcome to An Agency Storypodcast where we share real
stories of marketing agencyowners from around the world.
From the excitement of startingup the first big sale, passion,
doubt, fear, freedom, and theemotional rollercoaster of
growth, hear it all on An AgencyStory podcast.
(00:24):
An Agency Story podcast ishosted by Russel Dubree,
successful agency owner with aneight figure exit turned
business coach.
Enjoy the next agency story.
Russel (00:41):
Today's guest didn't just join the business to take
the reins from the founder.
She made it her mission to growthe company by growing the
people.
Welcome to An Agency Storypodcast.
I'm your host Russel.
In this episode, we are joinedby Gwen Hamus co CEO of Crow
Metrics.
Gwen didn't build crow metricsfrom the ground up, but she's
shaping its future in a big wayfrom a global career in
(01:03):
advertising to redefiningleadership with intentionality
and empathy, Gwen brings aunique blend of heart hustle and
high expectations.
We dive deep into what it reallymeans to grow with the team
first, how she's intentionallynavigating the complexities of
transitioning leadership fromfounder to operator and why she
believes resilience andprogress, not perfection, drive
(01:26):
great agency cultures.
Enjoy the story.
Welcome to the show todayeveryone, I have Gwen Hammes
with Cro Metrics with us heretoday.
Thank you so much for being onthe show today, Gwen.
Gwen (01:37):
Thanks so much for having me.
Russel (01:38):
If you don't mind, just kick us off right off the bat,
tell us what Cro Metrics doesand who do you do it for?
Gwen (01:43):
As I always say, and this may be an overly simplistic way,
but I say we make the interneteasier for people to get what
they're looking for, right?
If you think about consumersthat wanna buy socks, like with
one of our clients as Bombas,how do we make that an easier
situation for them?
If you think about, you know,donors trying to donate to
causes that are important tothem, how do we make that
easier?
Even something like, um,patients, you know, how do we
(02:06):
help them solve kind of theirsymptoms through some of our
healthcare clients, like a forumhealth?
Russel (02:09):
Real good, practical examples of what you do.
In 2025, I'll take as simplisticas we can get all day, every
day.
Wonderful way to explain that.
We're gonna find out all ofthings agency life.
We have no shortage of greattopics that we're gonna talk
about today, but I'm interestedright in the current moment
about young Gwen and, you know,where, where was she coming up
in the world?
Tell us about Young Gwen.
Gwen (02:30):
I'm gonna take us way back.
I actually went to college as aSpanish major and I got into
college and my mom said, nobodyis going to pay you to speak
Spanish.
Get another major.
Russel (02:39):
Why was that your major?
What was the thought processthere?
Gwen (02:42):
I always just, I've loved learning languages and that's
still a passion of mine.
I say I can, you know, I knowenough Portuguese to be
dangerous in Rio or Sao Paulo,and I'm currently learning, um,
French and Italian.
It's just something I think forme, it was less about the actual
learning of languages and it wasmore about the ability to get to
know and connect with morepeople.
That's been a thread throughoutmy life, I'd say, and I think
(03:04):
why ending up in originallyadvertising and now marketing
makes a lot of sense for mebecause it's about getting to
know people and I'm a bigbeliever in living in and having
worked in Mexico City, I studiedabroad in Argentina, like we're
more similar than we aredifferent.
But getting to know the nuancesand what makes people tick and
the way language and food andart and history has just such an
impact on people's livedexperiences, I think, um, is
(03:28):
just something that lights me upand fascinates me every day.
Russel (03:31):
All right.
I'm sold.
To your point, great throughline here.
And so yeah you were going onand you were saying how that
path was gonna work out for you?
Gwen (03:37):
I switched my major, um, to a very employable major of
economics, which, um, I lovedbecause I was in the more of
liberal arts side of things.
It was about how the worldworked.
I think you're sensing a themehere.
Um, but I know I didn't wannabecome an economist.
I like math, I don't love mathto the extent I would need to,
and I, I knew I wasn't gonna getmy PhD.
(03:58):
I had a sense it could bemarketing, it could be something
in, you know, insights,something like that.
I studied abroad, my junior ofcollege in Argentina.
Since the seasons are flipflopped, um, I basically had the
summer, I had December throughMarch where I was down there.
My parents, once again, verysage advice, said, if you have a
reason to stay, if you can get ajob or an internship, you can
stay.
Otherwise you gotta come backhere for three months and, and
(04:20):
work before going back for the,the next semester.
One of my mentors now still tothis day, I met him, he was an
expat down there, and he said,hey, I could use, a young
student to help us out, but Ican't pay you, but if you're
willing and interested, I'd loveto have you on board.
He was, at the time it wascalled Pragma FCB, so FCB one of
the big agencies.
He brought me on, worked for himfor that summer, and then he
(04:40):
hired me outta college inChicago.
And as I say, like, the rest ishistory.
So I was very lucky to havefallen in I think, to the right
industry.
Russel (04:49):
Very cool.
You kind of highlighted thereand you know, we have a lot of
founders on this, but notalways.
You are not a founder of theagency.
I've got some curiosities aboutthat.
But before that, I mean, like,when you're navigating your
career, obviously you found, youknow, this thing you're
passionate about, good at andhad some good opportunities to
there.
Where did you think you weretrying to take your career, um,
from young Gwen to as thatprogressed?
Gwen (05:10):
I always say I'm a, I'm a recovering type A personality.
Go back to young Gwen, highlytype A.
I was like, I'm gonna do this.
I really wanted to move backabroad, and so every year in my
annual, performance review,they'd say, and what are your
career goals?
I'd say, I'd love to moveabroad.
Four years later, they knockedon my door, this was early
2000s.
They said, we're hiring for anaccount supervisor in Mexico.
(05:30):
I was like, this is perfect.
I'm gonna go down to Mexico.
I'm gonna do two years, studyfor the GMAT, have this great
experience, get into B School.
I was pretty certain at thetime, like B-School is about
getting to know contacts, maybecreating a business.
So I always had kind of thisentrepreneurial bone in my body.
But as life happens, I ended upmeeting my husband down in
Mexico City and all of my plans,uh, for, for that part of a, a
(05:53):
journey or path went out thewindow.
Russel (05:55):
Those darn husbands always ruining plans.
Gwen (05:57):
I know I made the right decision.
Russel (05:59):
Sounds like that's worked out.
You said changed plans and allthat went out the window.
Where did you veer to fromthere?
Gwen (06:04):
I'm a big believer in, it's not just about like what is
the goal, but like how do youfeel about it?
I always tell my teams like, Iwanna wake up every morning
excited about what I have.
If there's a day or two days, ortwo weeks or two months when I'm
not that's usually the signalfor a change.
That's always the advice I giveto young people.
Always check in with yourself,see how you're doing.
And To be honest, I was alwaysreally excited and really happy
(06:27):
about what I was doing.
I think the world of advertisingfor me, because you work on
different clients in differentcategories with different
problems to solve in differentconsumer groups, there is never
a dull day.
You have to be resilient and youhave to be agile and you have to
be able to pivot.
I've always thrived on that.
I am also a big believer ineverything happens for the best.
And so I think I was meant to,to really build and grow my
(06:49):
career in advertising.
It really wasn't until probablyabout a year ago now at this
point that I said, hey, maybethere's something else.
I've been in the industry, I'vegotten to do amazing things.
I've had Super Bowl ads.
I was like, I think this is mymoment to make a pivot, to focus
more on where can we drivetangible results.
To work for a smaller agency, togo more independent, where I can
have my direct fingerprints onit.
(07:10):
Um, and I was lucky enough toactually meet Chris Newman, our
founder, uh, and he brought meon board to be his co CEO with
the goal over time to, to, tohim, as I say, he can go into
full founder mode, which hedoesn't like.
He's like, I don't wanna befounder mode.
But really, I think focus onwhat that longer term future is
and how our product, um, canreally evolve in a, way that
(07:30):
just catapults where we'reheaded and where consumers are
headed and where clients andbrands are to add value.
Russel (07:35):
When you came to that realization, that decision, how
did you meet Chris, did you haveto go through a lot of vetting
and other agencies and companiesout there before you, you found
the right one?
What was that process like foryou?
Gwen (07:45):
I think it's one of those things, you don't realize how
great of a network you haveuntil you tap into them.
It was really me just and inthat moment I'm, I'm big into
like behavioral science andmicro steps.
The first thing I did, I waslike, all right, I'm gonna I'm
gonna tell some people what I'mthinking about and I just put it
out there and I just said, hey,I'm thinking about making a
move.
I'm thinking about making aswitch.
(08:06):
I'm looking to be more in kindof growth marketing, independent
agency, and something smallerthan I've been at.
By doing that, I, I don't wannasay the rest took care of
itself, but it was actually, Igot, an outreach from a
recruiter and we just startedtalking and then I met Chris and
I met some other people on theteam and it was, as you can
imagine, a bit of a longerprocess because it wasn't a, I
think for him bringing on a coCEO, this was something he'd
(08:27):
never done before.
But also for me it was gonna bea big, a big change.
It was just nice to really getto know him.
Some of the key people, theboard, um, get under the
business and some of the clientsbefore jumping in feet first.
Russel (08:39):
First big takeaway from the day, but I liked what you
said earlier about, importanceof checking in with yourself and
really taking the time toprocess what you're feeling and
going through.
But the second one there is, putwhat you want into the universe.
That does tend to, it's the lawof attraction and all that good
stuff that seems to always workout well.
Gwen (08:57):
I think it's that.
Also I just keep, I, I've beentalking a lot recently about
these micro steps, like, what isthat teeny tiny thing that's
standing in your way?
And so In that case, it waslike, just letting people know
what's on my mind and what I'minterested in.
It's one of those things, it'slike a muscle, like the more you
do it, the more comfortable itgets, and then the more people
are like, oh, you know who youshould talk to, you should talk
to this person.
I don't know, you know, wherethey are, what they're thinking
(09:19):
about, but you find out, yournetwork grows.
The connections grow.
Some opportunities were able topresent themselves in a way that
if I had just tried it from thevery traditional sense of just
reaching out directly torecruiters or keeping it in my
orb, probably wouldn't haveactually happened.
Russel (09:33):
I love that.
You found this, this gem of anagency, and how long ago was
this?
Where are we at in thechronology of all this?
Gwen (09:39):
January, so I just started, I'm, I'm just about,
five months in.
Russel (09:42):
Okay.
Just even that process,'cause I,I think there's probably a lot
of founders and owners that,that want their Gwen in the
world.
What was that process that youactually went through to,
determine not only for yourselfit's a good fit, but that Chris
and the agency said, yep, Gwen,we want Gwen in this seat.
Gwen (09:57):
I think it was a lot.
There were multiple pieces,right?
I probably spent, I don't know,in total probably 10 hours with
Chris.
He actually came to Chicago.
He had another meeting here, sowe grabbed dinner.
A lot of the conversations ofjust like the ease of them and
the sharing of ideas, thesharing, kind of like the way
that I think about growing thebusiness, the way I think about
positioning capabilities.
The way I even think about, youknow, how I always say like, Cro
(10:19):
Metrics is the best kept secretin the digital marketing
landscape.
We have amazing clients, we'redoing great work, but nobody
knows about us.
How can we get out there?
He brought a lot of other peoplein.
cme, We have an advisory board,which is great because we don't
have any outside investors, butthey truly are there to advise.
I had, meetings with two of theboard members and um, and it was
funny because recently we were,uh, we were doing a people
(10:42):
summit.
We do a lot of these kind oflike in-person people summits
every couple months and chriswas talking about, he's it was
your writing sample that got youthe job.
I was like, I never did awriting sample.
What are you talking about?
He said, well, remember Katie'semail, she followed up and he
said, that counted as yourwriting sample.
She and I probably had like anhour long conversation.
She's one of the board membersand following up.
She was one of the like salesVPs at DHL.
(11:04):
She was a, a core person kind ofbuilding that business in the,
the eighties and nineties.
She was like, Hey, just a couplefollow up questions, like what
was your biggest people problemand how did you solve it?
What was, you know, that failureand what did you learn from it?
What has been your greatestsuccess?
Very innocuous questions, butof, of course, I, I gave, I was
beared myself to some of myfailures, some of my people
(11:25):
problems.
The successes are always alittle bit easier to write
about.
It was just an interesting thingbecause I think Chris was
looking for somebody that had avision that was able to express
themselves, that was be able tobe persuasive.
But in the process, one of thethings, this was, as we were
getting close to, I'd say a, amutual decision, he said, well,
what scares you?
There's two things that scareme.
One is I don't know what I don'tknow.
(11:45):
Anytime you're going somewherenew, you're, you're taking a
leap, you're taking a risk,you're taking a chance.
You have to, again, have thequantitative of like, okay.
The clients are lining up whereyou're headed, line is lining
up, you know, all that.
But also just like how you feel.
The second thing is, which Ithink it might be more
important, is I said, I am theexact opposite of you.
He's a mechanical engineer, grewup in Silicon Valley.
(12:05):
He's very black and white.
He is, one of the most smart andbrilliant people you'll meet.
I am much more relational.
I'm very comfortable in thegray.
I said, are, is this gonna,like, would this work out?
Do you want somebody like me?
He was so self-aware and said, Ineed somebody like you.
He said, I actually, I wasinterviewing somebody that was
like a me, but 10 years earlierin their career and he said, I
(12:26):
came to the realization, and Ithink he said he got some
outside perspective saying like,you don't need another, you, you
need somebody that cancompliment you.
And you know, Everybody asks meabout this like co CEO thing.
They're like, well, how is itgoing?
I'm like, honestly, it's great.
I feel like we're on the samepage and when we're not, he's a
big believer in, um, in strongdebate.
So I think I've gotten to be,become an even better debater
(12:46):
than I had in the past.
We always, you know, find a wayforward and, and we make
progress.
It's only been five months, butI think so far so good.
I'm really excited about the,the future that we're building.
Russel (12:56):
I love the, the, the depth that you shared there and,
and you know, my own experience.
Had a similar process probably acouple times where I think we
brought on someone that, call ita key leader into the business.
When I really do think about it,it wasn't an overly formal
process.
We weren't thinking too hard.
It was just spending a lot oftime with that individual, just
understanding how they think,how do they solve problems, do
we align on just, how a businessshould generally function and
(13:17):
operate.
It's not really ultimately aboutcore tactics or something like
that, but there's just alignmentin values and thought processes
and that just takes a goodamount of time of connecting
with someone and spending withthem to, um, you know, to learn
all those things about anotherperson.
That sounds like kind of whatthe process is you went through
there.
Gwen (13:34):
What would you say would be the things you were scared
about?
Maybe bringing a senior personon?
Russel (13:38):
I think a different problem might be like, maybe I
wasn't scared enough.
I don't know.
Honestly, I, I, I tend to be avery optimistic, you know,
we'll, we'll figure it out typeof individual.
Run on good vibe so that mightbe the problem.
Wasn't scared enough, uh, in, inthose situations.
I did learn to trust thoseinstincts and just, hey, is this
a good human being?
One that's, that's, I know howfar that can carry someone.
(13:59):
Are they a good human?
Maybe that's the fear is if, youknow, is there a facade or
something that I can't see, um,or something along those lines.
I think that would be myultimate fear is letting someone
step in that, when push came toshove, would they uphold the
same level of values that, youknow, we had when we were
starting running and, andgrowing the company?
Gwen (14:15):
I always say I'm a big believer in people like to work
with people they like.
It really just comes down tothat core truth.
To your point, like if you'rehonest, if you work hard, if you
put the goals and the needs of,you know, the business ahead of
ego or personal advantage, Imean, you're, you're usually at
least a, a running start aheadof, of maybe where you could be.
Russel (14:34):
That's the key word there.
Ego.
I'm afraid of ego because I knowego causes problems.
You said it so, so greatlythere.
Because it, I mean, it, it is,and I talk to, you know, other
businesses that are inpartnerships, whether they're
life partnerships as well, orjust business partnerships.
It follows so many of the samemechanics, like a real life
partnership and you've got to beable to, you know, live and work
(14:55):
and do a lot of other thingswith this other human being to,
to make this all, all, all jiveand that even imp applies to the
rest of the team.
So It's such a very human thingwe live in this agency world.
Gwen (15:06):
It's, It really is.
It's our greatest asset is our,is our talent and our people.
Being able to, to recruit, youknow, retain and, and grow, like
when you can get those thingsrunning, you are, you are just
unstoppable.
Russel (15:19):
I'm curious.
You said you haven't been doingthis very long, um, or, you
know, into it a few months asfar as, you know, actual Cro
metrics.
But what is one thing that youwere just able to bring your
experience in your thoughtprocess and hit the ground
running, and what is, what issomething you maybe didn't quite
expect to encounter, that's beena little new or maybe just a
surprise?
Gwen (15:36):
I think there's a couple things.
I was pretty ambitious rightwhen I hit the ground running,
'cause I know, you know, we'veall, we all know about a hundred
days.
The big things were, there werea lot of like, um, com, like,
organizational foundation piecesthat just needed a lot of
clarifying and putting a finerpoint on.
Whether it was, you know, Istarted out saying our, our
areas of focus, we're gonna growour clients, we're gonna grow
our talent, and we're gonna growour metrics.
(15:58):
I said in that order'cause whenyou do what's right for the
clients, you open upopportunities for our people and
then in turn we grow.
I was always a big person, likewhenever you put growing the
agency first, you are doomed tofail.
That is a recipe for disasterbecause you're not adding value,
you're not solving problems,you're not putting the needs of
your clients and theirbusinesses ahead of yours.
You're definitely not puttingyour people first.
(16:19):
Pretty quickly I did that.
Since then, we now have, ourlonger, five-year plan that's
mapped out that we just revealedat our all-hands.
But my favorite thing, and Ialways say this was even like
stepping outta my my comfortzone a little bit, is I started
a Growing With Gwen series.
One of the things, again, as Ithink about how do you grow
people.
I'm sure you've had the samesituation with your agency.
(16:40):
People always say like, I wantmore training.
When you think about it, it'sreally, you know, it's like that
70% is on the job training, 20%might be more informal training,
and it's like 10% is reallyhardcore training.
Our big thing is on the jobtraining.
We talk about that a lot.
We give people experiences, wegive them challenges, and we
guide, like have those kind oflike guideposts, like this is
training you, learning thisthing is a new skill and it's
(17:02):
even better because it's realand actual.
But for kind of some of theinformal training, what I've
done is I've created a videoseries called Growing With Gwen.
which.
My goal is actually to expand itinto LinkedIn and making it a
bigger thing.
But whether it's topics like,and a lot of these are true, you
know, they're true to me.
They're learnings I've had overmy life that help, help me, um,
professionally, but alsopersonally.
One of the videos was 1% betterevery day, and that comes from
(17:24):
this wellness influencerfollower, um, called Kayla
Jeter.
Just talking about, again, whatare those micro steps?
What are those little things youcan do to help get to where
you're trying to go?
Another one is, you know, thefiguring it out effect, right?
I think we all know, like whenyou have people in talent that
can just figure it out, that injust the sense of even trying,
they might not get to the rightanswer, but they're probably
gonna get a little bit furtherthan they can.
(17:46):
And so again, I probably haveabout 25 of these videos now
that, you know, every coupledays I'll post, um, I'll post on
our, all agency channel.
The last one was actually a funone.
I did one on, uh, Friday beforeeverybody broke for Memorial Day
and it was all about the powerof daydreaming.
We were just at a client lastweek and we did a kind of a, a
FY30 Vision setting, and weactually went outside and we
(18:08):
were in the grass.
It was all very kind of zen.
Russel (18:11):
I feel like I need access to these growing with
Gwyn videos.
Now it's like I want to see thisvideo and, and learn about the
power of daydreaming.
Gwen (18:18):
It's great'cause you never, we never create the space
to do that, right?
We're always like, heads down, Ihave these, these key
priorities, or I have these firedrills, or I have these, you
know, phone calls to make oremails to write.
Just creating the space todaydream and how to think about
that, um, and how to practiceit.
Again, just create space I thinkis a powerful piece.
Russel (18:36):
Amongst all the other topics.
If we kind of take a step backand, you know, I feel like this
was a big jump for us in anagency is once you get kind of
some of the hurdles of how do weget enough clients in here to do
what we wanna do business-wise?
We gotta deal with this teamand, how do we create a great
environment not only for today,but for tomorrow?
It seems like any agency that'sdone that well has made a very
intentional, deep seatedinvestment in, in training,
(19:00):
which it sounds like, you know,you're, you're going through the
process too and in a very uniqueand, and fun way.
Gwen (19:04):
Absolutely.
I think it's one of those thingslike I'm a big, I'm a big
person.
I kind of joke, I'm like, it'sprobably'cause of my Chicago
roots, right?
We're very roll up your sleeves,get it done.
But I'm like, I'm never gonnaask anybody to do something I'm
not willing to do.
I take a lot of likeaccountability, whether it's
through these videos, we havelike an accelerator program
where we have future leaders andwe have a whole curriculum and
our exec team, we each takedifferent topics.
(19:27):
It's funny, actually, I justposted on LinkedIn one of the
ones from the other week, whichwas like, the real meeting
doesn't actually happen in themeeting.
Again, you're trying to kind ofhelp people see around corners
and think more expansivelybeyond the kind of well defined
work that they do.
What does it take to actuallymeet your clients where they are
not only as a when they're ontheir client hat, but like as a
person and as somebody that hashopes and dreams and fears and
(19:50):
pressure and anxieties and beingable, again, in the service
industry in which we are to beable to, to serve them and be
there for them in ways that gobeyond, the, the defined scope
of work that we have in placewith them.
Russel (20:02):
I love too, just kinda sharing, that it's more than
just learn analytics, learn,better add management or
improvement or something likethat.
That it's more foundational,kind of ethereal things that,
um, that just make people thinkdifferently and approach
problems differently andprobably makes it where you
don't have to solve some ofthose more tactical training,
aspects that you would otherwiseby teaching people to think
(20:24):
differently.
Gwen (20:25):
Yeah.
That's the goal.
Yeah.
Step by step.
Russel (20:27):
Yeah.
One, one day at a time.
One step back real quick and,and just to give people a sense
of just the, the dynamics thatyou're dealing with.
How many folks work for Cro andare you distributed, hybrid, uh,
in person?
Just give us a sense of theenvironment.
Gwen (20:42):
We have about 50 people.
I say we are small yet mighty.
Especially if you look at someof the clients, I know I
mentioned a few of them before,but we really, we've been able
to get some kind of Fortune 100and Fortune 500 clients, which
is tremendous.
We are fully remote, um, andwe'll never have an office.
Our founder lives in Colorado.
I'm in Chicago.
We have people all spread outacross the 50 states.
(21:02):
We do think it, it's anadvantage, it does have its
challenges at times becauseeverything does have to be a
intentional connect, right?
Even if you're just yumingsomebody on Slack, you have to
put yourself out there asopposed to the serendipitous
connections.
We do try to have differenttypes of meetups.
We just had our whole companyall hands at the beginning of
May.
We do like IRL Connects forpeople.
Russel (21:23):
Very cool.
All right, well you just put outa big recruiting ad for a
potential talent out there.
Company retreats in Cancun.
Did you get to wow, your teamwith all your amazing Spanish?
Gwen (21:32):
We went to Cancun and there's actually some
significance.
When Chris Newman Art, ourfounder, founded the company, he
kind of had the idea actuallyin, um, uh, Eastly Moher.
There's kind of like a, an, aconnection and he always talks
about kind of feet in the sand,right?
When you're having hardconversations, when you're
building a business, when you'rethinking about where to go next,
you almost want your feet in thesand because nobody wants to
leave.
(21:52):
When you're sitting at a table,maybe you got a, michelada in
your hand and you're kind ofreally talking about the things.
There was significance on that.
Then, um, Hyatt InclusiveCollection's, one of our
clients, we actually stayed atthe Hyatt Ziva.
They were fantastic and amazing,and so we liked the fact we were
able to support, um, our clientas well doing that.
We got about a 95%, uh,attendance rate from everybody.
A couple people, you know, therewas a wedding, there was
(22:14):
somebody, you know, that had abig vacation already planned,
but it was great.
Russel (22:17):
That is really fascinating.
Resilience living abroad, I canonly imagine.
You probably have no shortage ofstories of how you sharpen and
gain those skills.
Gwen (22:25):
I did.
Speaking of figuring it out, so,um, you know, again, Chris had
been kind of going there onyears past.
They had done small hands therepreviously and you know, he
always, he always jokes that Ihave like resilience level
number six and I totallyattribute it to living in Mexico
City.
I can negotiate my way intoanything.
I can figure things out.
He said, hey, there's this placecalled Marbella that had full
(22:48):
octopus.
He's like, it's literally thebest octopus of my life.
He was like, if somebody can,if, if somebody could figure out
how we can get those deliveredto us, he's like, it's you.
I was kind of like, this iseither a test or he really wants
the octopus.
So I, you know, just Googledthe, the restaurant.
I called him up and I told himin Spanish, and you know, I'm
like, hey, we just want, youknow, five of these full
octopus, but can you have itdelivered and all this stuff.
(23:09):
He was like, well, we don'treally have delivery, but
there's a taxi stand outside.
Hold on, let me just go see ifthey can deliver it to you.
He comes back and he's justlike, yeah, they can do it.
We got connected on WhatsApp.
He told me how much it was gonnabe.
Sure enough, show, the guy showsup in the taxi cab with all the
octopus.
We pay him in pesos and, uh, andwe're on our way.
Everybody was very impressedthat I was able to convince a
(23:30):
local restaurant to, uh, putsome octopus in a cab without
any commitment of payment beforehe actually showed up, and it
all worked out.
Russel (23:37):
Speaking of, of resilience, uh, and, you know,
just all things what's going onin the world today, um, having
to be dynamic and on our toes,that's gotta be something that I
imagine is top of your mind ofhow do you manage the
organization?
How do you build resilienceamongst your team and, and what
does that look like in yourbusiness?
Gwen (23:53):
You said it earlier, right?
If you think about talent andeverybody's saying, how do you
get the best talent?
I truly believe it's, it'swithin each of us, right?
It's always even funny.
We call people talent, but it,it is about their capabilities
and their experience and theirexpertise.
My goal is to determine whatthat is and help them pull it
out of them.
There's a couple things in, inmy approach that I do.
(24:13):
The first, which is probablycommon sense, but it's like, how
do we get people to play totheir strengths?
Sometimes people know what thosestrengths are, but a lot of
times they don't.
It's funny because, I'm also abig person on, like, I want, I,
I'm always inviting people toraise their hand.
Any open roles we have or any,opportunities, we always say,
hey, raise your hand if you'reinterested in this.
Let's see how we can make thathappen.
I want people to feel they canbuild their careers here.
(24:34):
They have opportunities, theyhave all that kind of stuff.
And We were having thisconversation in the exec team
the other week because it waslike people might not even know
that they have a strength orthat they're interested in doing
something to even raise theirhand.
I had a coach many years agothat kind of had given me a bit
of a self-assessment, right?
On what are the things I lovedoing?
What are the things I hatedoing?
What are the things that I, I'dwanna do more of?
(24:56):
All of that kind of stuff.
I started circulating it aroundto people to help them come to
that, some of those realizationsfor themselves.
It's worked for me over time andit, it was a great way because
it's been, really, it's beenawesome to see over the last few
months how we have been able togive people those opportunities
or how somebody that you wouldnever think was interested in
(25:16):
even kind of switching into adifferent department has raised
their hand.
We've been able to make ithappen and they're thriving
there.
I think that's a big thing whereit's like when you can get
people, you know, number one,playing to their strengths.
Number two, having the abilityto raise their hand that gives
them the sense that they have abit more control.
Because when we are living in aworld where things are changing,
you know, almost on a dailybasis, whether that's on tariffs
(25:38):
or, you know, soon to be taxesor, you know, anything else
that's happening with global,uh, geopolitical situations.
People wanna have a sense ofcontrol because there's so
little that they can control inthe world around'em.
I think that's a big piece thatwe try to do.
The other thing that I broughtforward was what I call like the
dynamic talent model.
When I first started, again, oneof my 90 days, uh, was I wanted
(25:58):
to do as many meet and greetswith people individually as I
could.
I would get to know them, butI'd always ask two questions,
right?
Number one, what makes you stayat Cro Metrics?
Why have you stuck around?
I'm trying to get to like,what's that secret sauce?
Number two was, if you had amagic wand, it could change one
thing, what would it be?
And you know, Just like anyagencies in the past, there's
been, you know, layoffs andreorgs and things like that.
What was clear is people justwanted more like predictability
(26:22):
and certainty and stability.
Again, coming from the creativeagency side of the world, that
we used a lot of freelancers fora lot of different ways.
I said, hey guys, we can create,call it like these different
rings.
We have our core FTEs, full-timeemployees.
They're the ones you know,client facing, doing the hard
work, tip of the spear leadingthe capabilities.
Then we have our contractorring, which is really, we have
(26:42):
a, a group that are kind ofcontract to hire.
As we do have new roles, ifthere's not somebody internally,
how can they have an opportunitythen if they're not, upward, we
don't have a good talent mix, wecan recruit.
Then we have a broader kind ofcontractor ring, and that's a
mix of like nearshore andoffshore.
As we think about that, thewhole point on marketing is it
ebbs and flows, right?
We'd love to be able to predictit to T.
That's one of the hardest thingsfor any of us to do.
(27:05):
By having this, these contractorrings, we're able to, as we get
more work in, expand that.
When we have less work we canshrink it, and have a lot more
stability and predictability forour full-time employees so that,
they know they have the work.
We can be as committed to themas they are to us, and we're
able to manage any of those ebbsand flows through that way.
(27:25):
That was one of the first thingsthat I, brought forward.
We've gotten, good results.
We've gotten good feedback fromit.
I think we're having even moretransparent conversations with
our contractors, so they're alsounderstanding like, hey, this is
working for, for both of us, andlet's keep that conversation
open.
But that's just another kind oftool in our toolbox because
again, we talk about howimportant talent is, and a big
(27:46):
piece of it is making them feellike they have some of that
security as well.
Russel (27:49):
It's kinda like you developed your own minor league
system within your agencyrecruitment process, right?
There's the big leagues and thenthere's AAA down to A and just
being honest with people aboutwhere they fit in that ecosystem
and, and navigating'em where thepieces need to fall when they
need to fall.
Gwen (28:07):
I would say like, we don't have it all figured out.
But I think the, the intent isI'm also a big like, progress
over perfection person.
Let's make progress.
We optimize consumerexperiences.
We are constantly testing andlearning things for ourselves.
Let's test this out.
Let's see what the right mix is,let's see what the right levels
are, you know, and let's getthat feedback from the people
involved and then we cancontinue to, to optimize and go
(28:29):
from there.
I almost never wanna get itperfect'cause that feels too
exact, but how do we just learnand, and continue to ebb and ebb
with it?
Russel (28:37):
I love that approach 'cause it, it, it's like this
notion like, stop worrying ifthere's a right answer or a
perfect answer.
Go down the path, go down thejourney, and if you do that
intentionally, you're gonnaprobably still up in a, in a
good or better place.
It's probably gonna be differentthan what you could have
predicted.
But how, how really important.
I try to, try to communicatethat to folks a lot of, embrace
the journey.
You just have to embrace thejourney,'cause it's too easy to
(28:58):
get caught up in the result andthat's gonna swing our moods or
how whatever you, it's gonnatake us down some wrong paths if
we, if we get too caught up inthe end.
Gwen (29:05):
I think too, like I love that phrase of embrace the
journey, because what that doesis it also invites other people
in.
I'm a big believer, I do nothold, you know, I don't corner
the market on good ideas.
I kinda put some things out intothe world, but I've been really
impressed by when people willthen come and say like, hey,
have you thought about doing itthis way?
Or, hey, if we're trying to geta little bit better on this
thing, have you ever thoughtabout this?
(29:26):
Then it's like, I haven't, canyou go run with that, like take
ownership of it?
And again, it's just, It's greatto see how people are kind of
rising to the occasion in newways because just of the power
of ideas and innovation thatexists.
Russel (29:38):
That makes me think of, I was thinking earlier as you
were describing that, um, it's aproblem for a lot of agencies
where they get in this modewhere I think, you know, they
only rely on the top what theyperceive as 20% of their talent
to do 80% of the work.
That becomes a very hard cycleto eventually break out of.
But, uh, I've always just hadthis, you know, regardless of
what size your business,regardless of what business
(29:59):
you're in, whoever can get themost out of all of their team
and talent, that's who's gonnasucceed in the marketplace.
That's the kind of company thatcan move mountains.
That endeavor, while not easy,is extremely important and
worthwhile.
Gwen (30:11):
Totally.
That's why I just go always backto the, like, if you wake up in
the morning excited about whatyou're doing, like, we as
business owners have a betterchance that they're, that if we
can get everybody to feel thatway, maybe not every day, but
you know more, more than that,nine outta 10 days, like we're
gonna be in a, we're gonna be ina better place.
So what, What do we need to doas leaders to help create that
(30:31):
for them?
Russel (30:31):
There you go.
There's a mic drop questionright there.
Way to put a pin on thatconversation.
Um, one, One of the things, justkinda curious, um, you know, in
stepping into this role, whatfears did you have?
Taking the reins, I should say,uh, of a founder, uh, can't be
an easy task.
I just know there's, in so manycompanies, there's just such a
relational tie to a founder.
It's kind of like, this is theway mom always did, or dad
(30:53):
always did it in a family.
What was that like, I guess fromthat perspective?
Gwen (30:56):
This goes into like, you don't know what you don't know,
and you don't know what youdon't know until like the rubber
hits the road, right?
It's like that firstdisagreement or that first
tension point or that first, um,just difference of opinion.
I think that, that was thething.
Kind of going into it, I willsay what was helpful, again, is
Chris is very self-aware, so hewas, I mean, more than I think
(31:18):
any, almost anybody I've met intelling me where some of you
know, his areas of opportunitywere.
But I absolutely was, wasscared.
I've been honest even with ourteam of like, I would know
pretty quickly if this weren'tgonna work out, if any idea I
had, he said, no, we're notgonna do that.
We've always done this this way.
Alternatively, he brought me onto help grow the business.
Again, he comes from anengineering background.
(31:38):
He's exceptional at product, buthe's like, I haven't worked for
these huge professional servicecompanies.
So I also tell people like, I'mhere to help grow the business,
grow each of you, grow ourclients.
If I don't or if I can't, Iprobably won't be around for
long term.
Now, I'm gonna move heaven andearth to make sure I do.
But I think that's been the verypositive piece.
I mentioned to you before westarted, he's uh, he's taking
(32:00):
the summer off and I thinkthat's a big vote of confidence
to his faith in me and hisbelief, in my leadership style,
also in my, you know, my, mybusiness, uh, decision making
abilities so that he can takethose three months off.
I'm excited for him to come backbecause as we've we have kind of
like three, three ways we'rethinking about the business.
I'd say the biggest one, whichis the longer term, is like, how
(32:21):
are we creating our future?
How are we thinking about, whatis to come or what may come?
I told him, I'm like, whenyou're back, I want you fully
focused on that.
That's where your mind can, canbe thinking about that.
'Cause he's very tuned in toeverything happening.
Not just from a gen, gen AIstandpoint, but from a quantum
physics and from all of theseother parts and pieces that will
become our reality in the nextfive to 10 years.
Russel (32:42):
When you guys, obviously he's taking the summer off and,
and you guys are taking thisprocess slow.
Do you have a longer term exitplan ironed out between the two
of you or is it just one step ata time, we'll figure it out,
going kind back to thatiterative mentality?
Gwen (32:55):
It's definitely one step at a time.
He has no, intentions of sellingand I, I did not join this to be
part of a sale.
I joined this to be able to putmy fingerprints on something and
grow it and take it to the nextlevel.
I think we've had some reallygood progress and traction, you
know, and my, my goal would behow do we double it?
Not just for ourselves, but howdo we grow our headcount?
How do we promote from within?
(33:15):
As I mentioned before, we havean accelerator program of future
leaders.
They're, you know, relativelyyoung in their career, but like,
I would love to have thoseopportunities in which they can
step in and they can lead,bigger clients that have more
for it.
So, I mean, it's funny becauseit's like, yeah, we have like,
we think about five to 10 yearsahead, but I'm also very focused
on let's not get over our skis.
(33:36):
We need to, you know, if, Ialmost think, and he, he and I
have talked about like, allright, here are my goals for Cro
Metrics, for our team, for ourclients in the next three
months.
Because when you come back, Iwould love to be able to be
like, Chris, here are the thingswe've done.
I also think, you know, the endof December here, here's what
are my goals for myself, um, andnot myself, but for all of us
included.
Because I think if we, while Ilove daydreaming, we also have
(33:58):
to be really grounded inreality.
The reality is there's a lot ofuncertainty that's happening
right now and we're hearing itfrom our clients every day.
We're also trying to help themin new and innovative ways
through this uncertainty to makesure that we're, you know, we're
that valued partner and we'renot just business as usual while
they're dealing with all thisother stuff, but we're able to
(34:18):
help them think about like, hey,is consumer behavior is
changing?
Is their experiences arechanging?
How do you make sure you'rewinning more than your fair
share, you know, of their mind,of their wallet, of their heart,
all of those kinds of things?
Russel (34:30):
Maybe, as you put it, now more than ever, it is not
the time to get too consumedwith what the future's gonna
look like.
Don't get over your skis, as yousaid.
Just really focus on the journeyand the present and doing the
best you can with, with puttingsome stakes and goals out in, in
front of you.
But don't get too consumed with,the long term game here.
Gwen (34:47):
Exactly.
I think that's, you know, that'sprobably true for everybody,
right?
You're always in this, um, thislike continuum, right?
Of like, we need to know wherewe're going.
We need to know how we'regetting there.
We're not a public company, butI had a client years ago say,
how did he say it?
It was like, you get the, thebenefit of thinking of the long
term when you're delivering onthe short term.
I think that also rings true forme of, I'm in this role to help
(35:08):
make sure we're steadily headingin the right direction, and that
hopefully is, allowing me tothink more long term about this.
Russel (35:15):
It sounds like it's working out well.
Very fabulous.
Great insights, great takeawaysthere, and curious, as we start
to wrap things up here, yourinsight on one last big question
for you, Gwen.
Are entrepreneurs born or arethey made?
Gwen (35:27):
I love that question.
You've obviously hit the nail onthe head.
It's is it nature or is itnurture?
While I can't speak foreverybody, I can speak more for
myself, I think it was moremade.
I am a big believer in like mytime living in working in Mexico
for five years.
Seeing entrepreneurshipliterally every single day,
whether it was the, person thathad to hit the streets selling
(35:48):
candy and gum to make a livingto the ladies selling tamales on
the corner to just the way Ialways said, miracles happened
every day.
There was no time, there was nomoney, there was, you know, all
these roadblocks and they justmade things happen.
I believe for myself it was moremade through those experiences.
I don't think if I had that, youknow, being a kid growing up in
Chicago, an original Spanishmajor, I probably would've ended
(36:10):
up here.
Russel (36:11):
Wow.
Very powerful.
When you think about thoseexperiences and, and how your
skills and talents and abilitieswere forged, um, thank you so
much for sharing that.
If people wanna know more aboutCro Metrics, where can they go?
Gwen (36:21):
You can follow me on LinkedIn, uh, Gwen Hammes.
You can follow Cro Metrics orcrometrics.com.
Russel (36:27):
Well, thank you as well, Gwen.
So many great takeaways fromjust the, the power of, you
know, for bringing on greattalent to spending time with
them, to, um, trying to, how,how do we ask these questions of
ourselves to get the most out ofeveryone on our team and uplift
them and make them rise to theirhighest level of achievement.
So many great, wonderfulinsights and takeaways today and
really appreciate you taking thetime to share those with us.
Gwen (36:48):
It's been a joy hanging out with you this afternoon.
Thank you so much for the timeand the conversation.
We hope you've enjoyed thisepisode of An Agency Story
podcast where we share realstories of marketing agency
owners from around the world.
Are you interested in being aguest on the show?
Send an email topodcast@performancefaction.com.
(37:12):
An Agency Story is brought toyou by Performance Faction.
Performance Faction offersservices to help agency owners
grow their business to 5 milliondollars and more in revenue.
To learn more, visitperformancefaction.com.
We have this thing called the Cro Show.
(37:33):
We have a number of clients, wehave a number of different, um,
optimizations and tests thatwe're running.
It's a little bit of, you know,the Price Is Right type of a
thing.
We have one of our directors,his name is Travis, he used to
be a comedian.
He is really able to bring thattalent through to what, uh, to
what he does in terms of puttingit on.
I witnessed my very first liveCro Show at our all-hands.
(37:54):
Whether it was from makingpeople wear funny hats when they
were up presenting to, you know,having kind of some of the
banter with them.
He is one of those guys that Ijust think at some point we're
gonna lose him because he isgoing to, you know, be the next
Bob Barker or the next, uh,Steve Harvey out there running
his, his own, I don't know ifhe'll ever get to be official
(38:15):
for Cro Show, but, uh, runninghis own talk show and, uh, and
game show out there.
Russel (38:19):
What is the basis of the Cro show?
Is it just like a, a game, like?
Gwen (38:23):
Yeah.
Basically what it is, is for,um, so part of what we do by
making kind of the interneteasier for all these people, um,
is we're constantly running A/Btests.
We're seeing what works and whatdoesn't.
As I always say, it's like we'refollowing the behavior.
We're following what people do,not what they say.
A lot of times it's like, youknow, hey, we ran this test.
Was it a winner or was it aloser?
People are constantly kind oflike guessing on all of these
(38:44):
different tests.
One of our strategists will getup, they'll talk about it.
Travis is really kind of the,the MC of this whole thing to,
to make it, uh, lighthearted andfun and engaging.
It's fascinating because whatyou, what you always kind of
assume, like, you know, like, weall have good guts when it comes
to consumers and marketing andwhat's gonna work and what
doesn't.
A lot of times it shows you likeconsumer behavior is a
(39:06):
fascinating thing and, andtesting into it, optimizing
against it is, is really the wayto go to get to better business
outcomes.
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