September 13, 2025 • 49 mins
On today’s program, Episode 184, this is Part 1 of a dialogue I had with Andre Roosma of the Netherlands, discussing the written language of Abraham, Moses, and David, often referred to as Paleo-Hebrew. We will be speaking about the pictographic roots and basic notions that underlie the earliest biblical script. Paleo-Hebrew developed from a script that was used in the West Semitic area, ranging from current Syria to Egypt to the Sinai desert, during the second millennium BCE. It is commonly referred to as Proto-Canaanite or Proto-Sinaitic. This script later developed into what we know as the block letters of the Hebrew used during the Babylonian Exile and beyond to our present day. Our program will begin with Andre's understanding of how he pronounces the Name יהוה and why.
In the second half of the program, we dig into the actual meanings of the Hebrew letter pictographs. Join me now for my discussion with Andre Roosma as we delve into the rich nuances of biblical texts based on their pictographic concepts.
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Episode Transcript
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Suzanne (00:00):
Avi coming up next.
(00:00):
Please join us for real Israeltalk radio. This is episode 184
(00:04):
here is your host, Avi BenMordechai.
Avi ben Mordechai (00:11):
Welcome to Real Israel Talk Radio. I'm Avi
Ben Mordechai on today'sprogram, Episode 184 this is
part one of a dialog that I hadwith Andrei Roosma of the
Netherlands, discussing thewritten language of Abraham
(00:34):
Moses and David, often referredto as paleo Hebrew. We will be
discussing the pictographicroots and basic notions that
underline the earliest biblicalscript of the Hebrew language.
Paleo Hebrew developed from ascript that was used in the West
(00:58):
Semitic area during the secondmillennium before the Common
Era, roughly about 1000 yearsbefore Yeshua, various
excavations have found textualfragments of it in a very large
area, ranging from Current Syriato Egypt. It is commonly
(01:21):
referred to as proto Canaaniteor proto sinatic. This script
later developed into what weknow as the block letters of the
Hebrew language used during theBabylonian exile and beyond to
our present day, we'll learnabout Andre's life and research
(01:45):
into this fascinating linguistictopic. Join me now for my
discussion with Andre rusma aswe delve into the rich nuances
of the biblical texts based ontheir pictographic concepts. I
came across your work many, manyyears ago called the written
(02:08):
language of Abraham Moses andDavid, a study of the
pictographic roots and basicnotions in the underlying fabric
of the earliest biblical script.
Yeah, and by your own admission,stating that you're not a
linguist, yet this researchpaper that you came up with is
(02:32):
quite extraordinary, in myopinion,
André (02:37):
From my earliest youth, I am a researcher. I have always
asked questions. From there, Icame to work as a scientist,
researcher with a big companyhere in the Netherlands. When I
came to know God in I was 17years old, I studied the Bible
(03:02):
very intensely, and I cameacross the fact that the Bible
is, of course, not written inEnglish or Dutch or any familiar
language to us. The largest partis written in Hebrew. So I got a
third of interest in Hebrew, andI started to read the Old
(03:24):
Testament in Hebrew that wasvery fascinating. I discovered
that the God of the Bible has aname, a four letter name in
Hebrew, that name was alwaysclose to statements like, I am
with you, to Abram, to Jacob, tothe people of Israel. Always,
(03:47):
when the name is mentioned, it'salso mentioned. He is with us.
He is there. You could translatethe name. He isn't and loving us
like John 316 says that He gaveHis Son because of His great
love for us. He does thatbecause he is that way. He
doesn't do that because who weare, but because of who he is.
(04:12):
He simply is there. He ispresent, and he wants to be
present in our lives. And that'sso fascinating that I was going
deeper and deeper on that wholesubject of his great name.
So with this kind of insight,I'm just really fascinated with
(04:33):
how you found his name to berepresented in Scripture.
I find it so fascinating the wayhe presents himself, for
example, to Moses. When Mosessays, I have to tell the people
who this God that has met me whohe is. And then God mentions
(04:56):
first his name, and then hesays, how compassionate.
Compassionate and how mercifulhe is. So his name is first, and
that is that he is there, andthen he is not there as a judge,
but as a compassionate TheHebrew word is raham, which is
the womb, basically
Avi ben Mordechai (05:18):
Raham or rahum. This is the idea of like
a motherly kind of compassionalmost continue
André (05:24):
on the womb is giving priority to the child, even when
the mother is almost dying, itwill still feed the child.
That's the way God is that Hegives, even gives his life for
us. Now that is the first wordafter his name that God mentions
(05:46):
to Moses. I am absolutelythrilled by such a compassionate
God. It's marvelous to Jacob. Hementioned his name too, but you
see that Jacob didn't have theBible. He just had a few stories
by his father, and that was it.
Avi ben Mordechai (06:06):
We had a conversation, and you were
mentioning about Satan orPharaoh of Egypt, and you were
telling me that these are notnames, they're actually just
more descriptions than they arenames. Yes, yes.
André (06:26):
Names are very important in the Bible. Names characterize
who the person is. Let me firstgive an example, a positive
example, of Elijah, his lifemission we see at the Mount
Carmel, experience that he hadwhere he led the people to take
(06:52):
distance from their idolatry andto say, yah is our God. So His
name is EL EE YAH, or EL EE, YAHHU. My God is Yah. So names are
very important, and some peopledo not get a name in the Bible,
(07:14):
like the pharaoh of Moses. Stilltoday, there's a lot of debate
going on. Who was that Pharaoh,the Bible doesn't mention his
name because he was an evilperson, the enemy of God. We
call Satan. But Satan is just aHebrew word for enemy, and it's
(07:36):
just that. So he just gets thetitle the enemy in the New
Testament, He is called Diablos.
That is the one who tears apart.
He's also mentioned the one whoaccuses but he doesn't get a
name. But even the midwives thathelped Moses being born are
(07:59):
getting a name, SIFA and Puah,they get honored.
Avi ben Mordechai (08:03):
So with the all eternal one and his name,
there is a tremendous amount ofarguing about the proper
pronunciation of thetetragrammaton the name. What's
your take on it? What do youthink?
André (08:22):
Well, before I speak about the pronunciation of the
name, I want to mentionsomething that we forgot. I
think that is that I said hisname is always associated with
him being there. You see that,for example, in the life of
Jacob, he didn't have the Bibleor whatever. So he had very
(08:43):
little experience with God fromothers to build his faith on,
and it's a bit wobbly. Still.
There were times when he wasfeeling close to God, and then
he used God's name, but therewere also, was a large stretch
of time that he did feel closebecause his favorite wife had
(09:04):
died, and he blamed God forthat, and he was angry for a
long time. We you see that hedoesn't use the name, and then
at the end of his life, when heis blessing his children, he
needs to use the name again. Sohe needs the presence of God to
(09:25):
bless his children. And you seein the in the Psalms, in but in
the entire Tanakh, you see thatwhen someone is feeling close to
God, he uses the name. But ifsomeone is feeling distant from
God or has distance himself, hedoesn't use the name. Take the
(09:49):
example of David in Psalm 27 heis on the mountaintop
emotionally, and then all of asudden he seems to fall down.
Down because he says, oh, Lord,help me and this and that. And
then all of a sudden he realizeswhat is bringing him down, and
that is that he was afraid thaton that mountain top he would be
(10:12):
forsaken by God. But then hesays, Okay, no, God is
different. My father and mymother did forsake me. And
indeed We know that. We knowthat when the Prophet came to
his father, and the same word isused there, that his father
says, yes, I've left him on thefield, the same word is used
(10:37):
there, as in Psalm 27 and soindeed, his father didn't find
him important enough. But Goddoes So have faith. I say to the
people like you say, who arelistening now and who say, Well,
(10:57):
I'm angry at God, try to talk itover with him, because he really
is love. And he will listen, andhe will listen. He will listen
to any argument. He can standit. If you're angry.
Avi ben Mordechai (11:12):
I'm thinking of something like Psalm 37 I was
just reading that do not fretbecause of evildoers. Do not be
envious toward wrongdoers. Theywill wither quickly, like the
grass and fade like the greenherb. Then 37 three, trust in
(11:33):
yud, hey. Vav, Hey, and do good.
Dwell in the land. Cultivatefaithfulness. Delight yourself
in yud, hey, Vav a yovah orYahweh, and he will give you the
desires of your heart, Commityour way to yud, hey, Vav, a
trust in Him, and He will do so.
(11:55):
It's things like Psalm 37 that Iread, and we tend to fret
because of all the people doingso well around us, some of the
evil people. And we tend tothink, Where is God? How come
I'm going through this? Whatabout them? They're doing so
well. Why am I so down in thedown in the dumps every year?
(12:18):
What's What's that all about,and we tend to get a very, very
angry. And I'm sure you've beenthrough your your own tests in
your life, I'm sure, and ittends to test us as to whether
we're going to continuebelieving in him or not.
André (12:34):
Yeah, in the end, Psalm 27 says, If I hadn't believed in
the goodness of God, he believedthat somehow, even when he was
in the dark place, that somehowhe would see the goodness of God
again. And we all may have thatfaith that we will see the
(12:54):
goodness of God again
Avi ben Mordechai (12:55):
even when we're in a very hard and
difficult dark place. Yes, yes,we're living in a world that is
not fair. Everything in thisworld is just. It's not fair.
André (13:08):
You see a lot of complaints about that in the in
the Psalms and, yeah, allthrough the Bible.
Avi ben Mordechai (13:14):
Okay, so continue on and take us into the
story of the name. You went tosome professors and rabbis, and
you confronted them to ask them,Well, how does this name sound?
How do you pronounce it? Socontinue on with that story.
André (13:33):
When I started to speak and write about the name, people
started to ask me, yes, how mustwe pronounce so I went to the
professors in Hebrew and inSemitic languages, etc. I was
very sad when I hear theiranswer. That is that they said,
well, we don't know anymore,because it was forgotten. And I
(13:56):
think all the names of othergods, Roman gods, Greek gods,
name the name them all. We stillknow them. And the name of our
own god, we wouldn't know Icouldn't understand that as a
scientist, as a researcher whoalways finds what he seeks for,
(14:17):
and certainly when I would askGod in my research, I would
always find something. So I wenton digging further, and they
said, Well, okay, in the in theBible, in the text, they in the
Middle Ages, and in half thecases, or a third of the cases,
(14:39):
they have added vowels that makeit sound like Jehovah. So that's
why people always thought thepronunciation was Jehovah, and
some people that I respect liketo care right to name your
Gordon, he still says it'sJehovah
now, Nehemia, Gordon, he citesthe. Grad Codex, and there are a
(15:02):
number of places where it'spointed with the vowels that
give it the sound. Jehovah. I'veseen those entries. I'm not a
linguist, so I can't tell youexactly what's going on. Do you
have any thoughts onthis? A number of cases there
is, they added the vowels likeJehovah. So I started to ask
these people further. They said,Well, nowadays, most people
(15:26):
believe it is Yahweh. I said,What is the basis? Well, it's
based on a correspondencebetween, I think it was a Greek
and the Roman in the firstcentury. One asked the other,
well, how was the pronunciation?
We don't know that. And theothers writes back, well, I have
(15:48):
heard a Samaritan say the name,and what he said was, and then
he writes down in Greek letters,jabe ya, beta, alpha, beta,
epsilon, in Greek, okay, but Isay that the Samaritans, just
like the rabbinic Jews, didn'tuse the name. They said it was
(16:11):
improper to speak the name outloud. Probably what this Greek
man or has heard from thatSamaritan was the replacement
that the Samaritans used thatwas Yaffe with a pay.
Avi ben Mordechai (16:27):
Is this almost like the Hebrew word,
YAFE? Like beautiful?
André (16:31):
Yes, the beautiful one, that is what they mentioned God
instead of using his name.
Interesting. Okay, so to me, itsounds very plausible that this
Greek man has heard theSamaritan speak about yafe, the
beautiful one. So it doesn't sayanything about the pronunciation
of the true name. So I had todig deeper to find the real
(16:53):
pronunciation. Well, I looked ata lot of there are a lot of
similar words, like Yehuda, theJews, the tribe. Name is Yehuda,
but all the people around Israelspoke about Yahuda. Now Yahuda
has only a D A dalet extra. Ifyou leave the dalet out, you get
(17:18):
Yahuwah. So I found a lot ofindications like this that the
pronunciation might have beenYahuwah.
Avi ben Mordechai (17:29):
In other words, the pronunciation that
sounds like Yahuwah without aDalet, because with the Dalet it
would be Yahoo da but withoutthe Dalet it is simply Yahuwah,
and you think that might havesome merit to it?
André (17:45):
Yes, and then I started to write about that, and someone
said to me, Well, you shouldread what one of the last high
priests, just like Daniel in theyear 70, when the Romans took
the Jews, there was also onehigh priest who was transported
(18:06):
to Rome and came to some powerthere again, and he wrote the
history of the Jews in one ofthose books, he says, You should
remember that It's not forconsonants, but it's for fowls.
So everybody in this day islooking, what vowels do we have
to add? No, we don't have to addvowels. We have to read the Yod,
(18:32):
hey, WAV, hey, as vowels, if Ipronounce that after each other,
I get ya, WA. I'm not sayingthat it is absolutely 100% sure,
but all indications seem to goin that direction. To me, what I
find more important is themeaning of the name than the
(18:54):
exact pronunciation. I mean, weall know that when we say Jesus
wrongly, and yet every Bible hasJesus. So I am proponent for
using the best guess that wehave for the pronunciation of
the Father's name, and like forJesus, that is, would be Yeshua
(19:16):
and for the father's name, Ithink it is Yahweh.
Avi ben Mordechai (19:20):
Could it be that Yeshua, his name is Yah
Shuah? I hear a lot of that kindof iteration.
André (19:29):
The first person in the Bible named Yeshua was was whom
we call Joshua,
Avi ben Mordechai (19:36):
Moses, right hand man. Yahushua, Joshua,
André (19:40):
If I re establish the yah instead of the year that
sometimes it has gone intolater, his name was probably
Yahushua. Yahushua. So if Jesuswas named after him, or had the
same name in that sense, Jesuswould be. Yahushua. But in the
(20:01):
time of the Romans, names hadchanged a little bit among the
Jews. So I think in that time,Jesus will have been called
Yeshua. A lot of people thinkabout biblical Hebrew. Biblical
Hebrew is a language the Hebrewof Moses or of the patriarchs,
and the Hebrew spoken in thetime of Jesus, it's 2000 years.
(20:25):
The Hebrew of Moses or thepatriarchs, was quite different
from the Hebrew of later times.
What I discovered, when I wantedto go back and wanted to go to
older manuscripts, etc, phonedone of those professors. And I
said, Well, what I encounter nowis a totally different script.
What is this? He said, ofcourse, the Jews had their own
(20:50):
script, but in Babylon for 70years, and sometimes some, even
longer, three generations wentto school in Babylon. They
learned the Babylonian script,and when they came back, all the
scriptures had to be rewrittenby Ezra and his followers into
this Babylonian script. But inthe time of the kings, you had
(21:16):
paleo Hebrew. That was adifferent script. It was a
slightly different language, butit was also a different script,
different letters. There is somerelation between the letters,
but still it looks quitedifferent.
Avi ben Mordechai (21:32):
Did the meanings of the words change or
just the script both?
André (21:36):
I think I have a very clear example. Is the word for
to be or to live in the BiblicalHebrew of Ezra, it was Haya. But
we know from other sources thatin the time of Moses, the word
for to live was Hava with a WAV.
A lot of words with Avi gotchanged vachad in Arabic, it is
(22:00):
still vachad For one unity. Andin Hebrew, it is either yahod or
Ahad with an Aleph at thebeginning.
Avi ben Mordechai (22:15):
Well we say in modern Hebrew, Yachad --
togetherness. So it soundsplausible what you're saying
there could be this akhad. Theyakad was a community of the
Qumran the Dead Sea Scrolls.
They obviously had thatunification idea in mind,
André (22:37):
We say, in here in Western Europe and elsewhere in
the world, we have wine inDutch, we say Vayin in French,
they say Vayin in German, theysay wine. It comes from the
Semitic root Vine. It hasbasically still the same letters
(23:00):
A, W or a V at the beginning, inthe middle, a yot or an eye, and
at the end, a noon or our letterN, but the Jews say yayin the
VAV became a yot. So a lot ofletters have changed over time.
Avi ben Mordechai (23:23):
You know, the Jews, they put numbers on the
letters because the letters arenumbers. So they they always say
that yain is has a numeric valueof 70, and the word secret has a
numeric value of 70 in Hebrew.
So they always say, when thewine goes in, the secret comes
out. So that's why they say, becareful what you're drinking and
(23:46):
how much on the Shabbat. Let'sgo on here. I want to have you
repeat something here when youwere saying to be or to live
Haya, spell it, please. Hi, yah.
Hey, yot, hey. Okay. And you saythat got changed to Haya, and
you think that Moses, when hewrote to be or to live, it would
(24:10):
be, hey, Vav, Hey, hey, Vav.
André (24:14):
So instead of the middle Yud, there was originally a
middle Vav,
Avi ben Mordechai (24:19):
so you're saying Moses had it as a vav in
the middle of the two letters,and it got changed to a yud for
Haya, not Hava. Yeah, do youthink that happened in the days
of Ezra?
André (24:32):
Perhaps I'm very curious, but I haven't found a linguist
who can tell me where all thesechanges when they when they
happened.
Avi ben Mordechai (24:42):
I'm Avi Ben Mordechai, and we'll return for
more with Andre rusma After wetake this short break. This is
real Israel talk radio. You.
Suzanne (25:00):
Avi, welcome back to the second half of real Israel
talk radio. This is episode 184here is your host, Avi Ben
Mordechai.
Avi ben Mordechai (25:11):
Welcome back to real Israel talk radio. I am
Avi Ben Mordechai, and I'mspeaking with Andre russma of
the Netherlands, discussing thewritten language of Abraham
Moses and David, often referredto as paleo Hebrew. We're
(25:32):
speaking about the pictographicroots and the basic notions that
underline the earliest biblicalscript of the Hebrew language.
Let's continue now where we leftoff just before the break.
André (25:48):
If you look at a Hebrew Dictionary and you look for
words that start with a WAV, youwill find very little, because
all the wav words that are stillthere in Arabic, for example,
like vain, they all got changed.
And I am very curious to seewhen and where that got changed.
Avi ben Mordechai (26:08):
You're talking about the "W" or "V"
words with a Vav in Scripture,there's very few wa words
beginning with a Vav. Todayunderstand you correctly, yes.
André (26:18):
In the in the strong, dictionaries, you see very
little about words...very few.
Avi ben Mordechai (26:25):
And what's your take on that? Why do you
think that then?
André (26:28):
Because all the VAV words somehow got changed, like Va Yin
for wine into Yayin.
Avi ben Mordechai (26:35):
Okay, let's go on to another question I have
here regarding the pictographicHebrew language. Do you have any
thoughts about the ancientpictographic Hebrew language as
you have come across it, andperhaps its relationship to the
old Egyptian hieroglyphics, theoldest
André (26:59):
script that we are aware of mainly from rock inscriptions
and a few pots because all thepaper and leather materials all
have wasted away of that oldage, the patriarch times. So we
have to rely on what is writtenin rock or on pots, and that's
(27:24):
not very much. But these days, alot of things are still being
found. So there is quite somematerial. And what linguists
have done is from the PaleoHebrew of the king's time, they
have tried to match those oldsymbols that they found to the
Paleo Hebrew symbols. And theyhave said, well, we see that the
(27:49):
old symbols had signified someobject. For example, debate is
the layout of early hood a tentwith a woman's part and a men's
part in it. And so what they sayis, Okay, that looks like the
(28:11):
later beIt in Paleo Hebrew,probably this was the early
Blatter beit. They assume eventhat older script was an
alphabet or an up God as the asthe professionals say it had
that function later, but I seepictures just like Jeff Benner
(28:32):
sees. For example, the word forfather in Hebrew is AB. It is
Aleph beit, now the old Aleph ofthe times of Moses and the
patriarch is an ox head. Evenour letter A is derived from it.
If you put our big letter Acapital on its side, you have
(28:56):
two horns and the head of the ofthe ox. Now for us in Holland,
when we think of oxen, we thinkof milk. When someone in Ireland
thinks of an oxen, he thinks ofmeat. So different people have
(29:16):
different associations with thehead of an ox or cow in 2000 BC.
What kind of associations wouldpeople have with the head of an
ox? It was fascinating to seepictures of castles in
Mesopotamia, not with the headsof lions in front of them, but
(29:39):
with heads of oxen in front ofthem. Why was the ox head a
symbol of power more than alion? Because the ox in those
days was the auroch.
Aroch in Hebrew was a largeanimal, like an ox, but even
much bigger. It was a very. Verypowerful, powerful animal,
(30:02):
yes, indeed, the AVI is ashoulder height of two meters.
Any lion would fear the orcs. Soif you want to symbolize, in
some way, the notion of beingbig, being strong, being the
first among all the others, thenthe ox head is the way to go. So
(30:29):
if you want to say to someonethat someone is the first, the
big one of the whole family, thefamily is the house. That's
biblical language in general,the family of David is the house
of David. Yes. So the word forfather, which is broader than
our English or Dutch word forfather in Hebrew, it's the
(30:52):
forefather, it's the progenitor,it's the founder of a
foundation. Is also calledAleph, but that's the big one of
the house (a Beit), so it's anox head and a floor plan of a
house, so it matches exactly thepictures match what it
signifies, even if I would be anearly Hebrew say the patriarchs,
(31:15):
and I would have to explain tomy children into pictures, what
is the word father, I would say,well, he is the big one of the
house. It made perfectly sensefrom the pictures. And then the
next word I saw was El God. It'sAleph Lamed. Aleph is head...ox
(31:37):
head. The Lamed is a shepherd'sstaff in the old script. So the
shepherd staff is for theshepherd. So the big, the Great,
the first Shepherd. Yes, that'sGod. Those were the first words
(31:58):
that I encountered in the oldscript, and that they made sense
when I interpret this script aspictures. So I said, Well, okay,
the scientists only say, well,it's only the first letter of
the of that word. But I say,Well, maybe, maybe I want to
(32:18):
keep open the option. Then italso is the notion of that
symbol in total.
Avi ben Mordechai (32:26):
So the Lamed is what you would call the 12th
notion, or idea of the AlephbeIt in Hebrew, being a leader a
shepherd involving a shepherd'sstaff or an ox goad, or
something involving the lamedand then it ties in with a lamed
(32:51):
word, an L word, like Lamed, toteach...a Teacher. Is that like
the idea of a guide, a shepherdstaff? Do you want to take that
a little further for us?
André (33:06):
Yeah, the word Lamed is lamed main Dalet. So the main is
water, or plentiful. I mean,when we have water, like in a
sea or so, you have plenty ofit, and when you have water,
then you have plenty. When youdon't have water, you are poor
(33:28):
in the Middle East. So water isthe symbol of a multitude, like
it's also in Revelation. Theseas are also the peoples of the
earth water is the either wateritself or it's standing for much
or a lot of and the Dalit is thedoor is to go into. So the
(33:54):
shepherd staff has a lot goingin. You want to have a lot of
sheep in your sheepfold. Youneed a lament. You need a
shepherd staff to have a lot ofthem go in. And then what you
are doing is you lament them.
You lead them.
Avi ben Mordechai (34:14):
How is the lamed then related to that of
teaching or to learn? What isthat relationship
André (34:22):
you direct by teaching you direct. And the lamed is the
way for a shepherd to direct thesheep.
Avi ben Mordechai (34:29):
The pictograph of the lamed is that
of a shepherd staff to thepictograph of the dalet is a
door as the pictograph of themem. Well, we'll come back to
the mem in a moment. I want tothen take this through the Aleph
beIt in a logical sequence. Solet's start with the aleph. And
(34:53):
the Aleph is the ox head that isthe notion of being powerful.
André (34:59):
First. Right. Primary, the big one, like the ox, is
among the other animals thefirst, the big one, the powerful
one.
Avi ben Mordechai (35:08):
And even the lions are afraid of them. Even
lions are afraid of you. Don'tthink a lion would come and
attack an
André (35:14):
ox, not the original ox.
Avi ben Mordechai (35:18):
Any relationship, perhaps, to what
we call, in English, thehippopotamus.
André (35:23):
Possibly they are not too related to, as far as I know,
and
Avi ben Mordechai (35:27):
out of the ox head in the pictograph we have
ALUF, it's numerically, thenumber 1000 in Hebrew, is there
a particular reason why it'srelated to that? Or do you want
to comment on that?
André (35:42):
No, and there's still some debate going on whether
it's really 1000
Avi ben Mordechai (35:47):
How about like Joshua, he is called an
aloof, an ALUF like a general.
André (35:54):
Yeah, it could well have been not 1000 but all that is
below a general of those days,which could be less than 1000s
Sure, sure. We are not 100%sure, but yet.
Avi ben Mordechai (36:07):
Okay, let's go forward now to the bait. In
the pictographic language ofMoses, the bait is the idea of
being, it's almost, it's apreposition in modern Hebrew
like to be inside or with or ator a part of something.
André (36:27):
The notion of a house or a tent is where you are inside.
So yes, it's the propositionprefix of being in.
Avi ben Mordechai (36:36):
Now, I noticed you had a comment here
about the Chinese language. Whatis your association with
understanding the Chinesecharacters?
André (36:46):
When I started to study all this in more depth, some 18
years ago, I had a good friendwho was a sinologist, so he
introduced me to the originalChinese pictographic language. I
saw that the Chinese pictographshave something that resembles
(37:08):
debate very much as being a boxand associated to the verb to
hide something where you couldbe in I'm still looking where
are the origins of this script.
I am not surprised that youasked about Egyptian
hieroglyphs, the Egyptians, theSumerians, the Chinese all those
languages started withpictographic language.
(37:33):
Pictographic script. I wouldn'tbe surprised if also this
Hebrew, the Semitic languagesstarted also with pictographs.
The Chinese make it complicatedbecause a lot of people say,
well, pictographic languagesneed 1000s of symbols. Yes,
that's because the Chineseconcatenate all the symbols to
(37:57):
form a word on top of eachother. Semites had a free, much
easier way to do it. They justplace them after each other, and
then you get a word. We still dothat. Every day. We have a book
mark, ah, a book and then a bookmark, yes, house and a house.
(38:18):
Hold a
Avi ben Mordechai (38:21):
house and a household.
André (38:23):
We concatenate every day, every second. Concatenation is
what they what I apparently didwith the symbols that might
indicate that these symbolsmight be the notions from the
very beginning, from the time ofelim. If so, I would expect to
have to see some similaritiesbetween the original notions of
(38:47):
Hebrew or of the Semiticlanguages group and the Chinese
and Sumerian and Egypt,
Avi ben Mordechai (38:56):
according to the to the research of of Isaac
Moses in he thinks thateverything began in the garden
with the Hebrew language, evenin script form, I suppose, and
then it got scrambled, likescrambled eggs in Genesis 11 at
the Tower of Babel.
André (39:14):
Yes, what we see is a lot of words in European languages
and in Semitic languages and ineven in Chinese that are
similar, that is also what Mosesand sees you asked about the
hieroglyphs and the Semiticscript. Well, the Semitic script
(39:36):
that we are talking about thereis a find, an early find, near
haram, where Abraham was. Thereare numerous finds in the Sinai,
Sinai in Egypt, so all on theroute of Abraham and the
Israelites later, I think thatthe pictographic pre Hebrew
(39:56):
script, so to speak, is olderthan. And Egypt hieroglyphs. I
see no reason why theIsraelites, if they invented the
script only in Egypt, why theywould look at the Egypt symbols
here Egyptian hieroglyphs?
Because why would I they havepictures every everywhere around
(40:18):
them, and a very clear exampleis the same.
Avi ben Mordechai (40:23):
I want to come back to that. Okay, I would
like you to now take us into theHebrew letter for gimel, the
sound. Give us some some of yourthoughts on that, please.
André (40:35):
The Gimel is still the letter that I am most uncertain
of. Nobody knows what it standsfor. Some people say it is a
throw stick. Some shepherdsmight have used something that
is also akin in Australia, aboomerang. Yeah. It could have
been something like that. Itappears that it also was known
(40:59):
in in the Middle East, at first,I also thought of in Sumerian,
you have this the same symbol,and it is a foot, a foot, a foot
where we stand on. And there area lot of words that make sense
when it is a foot. For example,the word Gimel or Gamal, a
camel. Even in our language, itis then to be interpreted as a
(41:24):
foots with water for a leader,which was what a camel is for.
Avi ben Mordechai (41:29):
It seems to relate to, perhaps the idea of
carrying or to gather somethingtogether, or some idea of
movement or a foundation orstrength,
André (41:42):
someone has suggested you have a tool that carpenters use
that is just a right angle.
Avi ben Mordechai (41:49):
The carpenters out there that are
listening, they'll know what itis, but I guess you call it a
carpenter square or something toto measure, yeah.
André (41:57):
Okay, so it might be something used in building. It's
so often related to something orlike a foundation or something
like feet under something, or
Avi ben Mordechai (42:10):
I'm thinking of words here, like gavav, the
idea of a hill or a height orsomething very tall.
André (42:18):
Perhaps it is a letter that appears furry, seldom in
the old inscriptions, so we knowvery little about it.
Avi ben Mordechai (42:28):
Jeff Benner says that the Gimel is like the
gum referred to a leg. So thatmay very well be the word that
that's connected to the gimel,there's also this sound of the
Guh Guh of Gimel. You can hearthat of like a footstep when
you're walking a guh, guh guh,yeah.
André (42:51):
We didn't talk about the sound of the letters yet, but
with the Aleph, your throat isconstricted basically the sound
of the airline. Yeah, it's like,what happens when you meet that
huge animal that your breathstops in your throat? The
(43:13):
linguists call it a guttural,this gutteral stop, so it's your
breath stops in your throat.
Avi ben Mordechai (43:21):
Ah, but we don't have we don't have that
sound in English at all.
Unknown (43:25):
That's what happens when you see such an animal.
Your breath stops in yourthroat.
Avi ben Mordechai (43:30):
Okay, let's now go ahead and talk about the
pictographic Dalit
André (43:36):
early inscriptions. You see a symbol that people,
linguists have interpreted as afish a dog. Yeah, yeah. I have a
little appendix in my documentabout something of the Dalit
because I discovered a lot ofthings. Of those days we have
(43:58):
hinges on the door. But in thosedays, the hinges weren't invited
yet a door could turn open wasby having the door board and
then a big pole, and that polewas attached to that board and
it was put in a hole in theground.
Avi ben Mordechai (44:19):
I remember seeing that in my tour guide
school, that bowl in the ground,in the
André (44:26):
hole? Yeah, a lot of those stones are still being
found. A big stone with a 60centimeters wide or so, yeah,
with a hole in it. Yes, that'sthe downward part of an old
hinge.
Avi ben Mordechai (44:41):
So it's the precursor to what would later
become the door hinge. Yeah.
Okay, and so the letter Dalet.
What does it represent?
André (44:51):
Pictographically, originally the triangle dalet is
a 10 door, which is just onepiece of cloth. Both, yeah, but
it also appears as the, what Ihave here as the third symbol,
and that is a flat piece of woodon a on a pole, the door. And by
(45:12):
that, any movement I mean thedoor was the part of the house
that could move, yeah. And also,earlier, it was symbolized only
by a fish, the idea offlexibility movement to enter
the
Avi ben Mordechai (45:27):
door. So if we get the Hebrew word, dalet,
lamed, Tav dalet, what is thatsymbolizing? If you were to
break those down into theirpictograph forms. What is that
telling us?
André (45:44):
It's the door with that pole and the tuff is a
construction, so it's a door ona pole construction. That's a
true door, not a tent door.
Avi ben Mordechai (45:54):
You said, not a tent door, like a tent flap,
yeah. And so with the lamed inbetween the Dalit and the tab.
What is that signifying thelimit is the pole, but a lamet
Has that pictograph. We'll cometo it in a moment. The lamed is
kind of an idea of a guide, ashepherd staff, a pole. Let me
(46:17):
see here. Where is this from?
Proverbs 26 as the door turnsupon its hinge, or some kind of
movement, so the lazy man turnsupon his bed. When I
André (46:30):
see that picture of a of a door in its hole, with the
pole in the hole, then I seethat a door turns upon its
hinge, in modern view, it wouldturn upon its hinge. It would
hang from its hinge.
Avi ben Mordechai (46:46):
Sure, sure.
So would we say that the thatthe dalet is really something
that is representing not just anopening, but also something to
expose something else, maybe,maybe, but it's definitely an
entrance,
André (47:02):
definitely an entrance, an entrance and movement.
Avi ben Mordechai (47:05):
So when Yeshua says I am the door, he's
saying I am the entrance,entrance by which you can move
in. And so we got the Englishletter D out of it, as in dog,
André (47:19):
and you still see it. The Greeks turned everything around
because they wrote from left toright. So that door on a pole,
you still see an hour capital D.
Avi ben Mordechai (47:30):
Let's go on and continue with the letter.
Hey, the ah, maybe a breath. OrHalla, what's this breathy hay
all about?
André (47:45):
I think it's the most fascinating letter in all of the
old Aleph beit. It's originallya person with his hands or her
hands up in the air and a kneesbent. It is worldwide to lift
your hands in the air is asymbol of surrender. Look at a
(48:05):
football stadium when theyscore, all the hands go up in
the air. Why? Because of joy,internationally and of all ages.
Hands up in the air is a symbolof joy. It's the symbol of awe.
When I'm in great awe, I put myhands up and I say, ah, that's
(48:27):
just the sound of it also, ah,
Avi ben Mordechai (48:29):
you've been listening to Episode 184 and
part one of my discussion withAndre brucema about the
pictographic roots and basicnotions that underline the
earliest biblical script of theHebrew language, what we have
(48:50):
come to know as paleo Hebrew wasdeveloped from a script that was
used in A very large area,ranging from current Syria to
present day Egypt and the Sinaidesert roughly about 1000 years
before Yeshua yah willing willreturn for more on this subject
(49:14):
from Part Two, next time you cancontact Andre through his
website@hallelujah.nl for theNetherlands. I'll spell it out
for you. Hallelujah, H, A L, L,E U Y A H. That's H, a l, l, e
(49:40):
l, u, y, a, h--www.halleluyah.nl, I'm Avi Ben
Mordechai, and this is realIsrael talk radio.
Avi coming up next.
(00:00):
Please join us for real Israeltalk radio. This is episode 184
(00:04):
here is your host, Avi BenMordechai.
Avi ben Mordechai (00:11):
Welcome to Real Israel Talk Radio. I'm Avi
Ben Mordechai on today'sprogram, Episode 184 this is
part one of a dialog that I hadwith Andrei Roosma of the
Netherlands, discussing thewritten language of Abraham
(00:34):
Moses and David, often referredto as paleo Hebrew. We will be
discussing the pictographicroots and basic notions that
underline the earliest biblicalscript of the Hebrew language.
Paleo Hebrew developed from ascript that was used in the West
(00:58):
Semitic area during the secondmillennium before the Common
Era, roughly about 1000 yearsbefore Yeshua, various
excavations have found textualfragments of it in a very large
area, ranging from Current Syriato Egypt. It is commonly
(01:21):
referred to as proto Canaaniteor proto sinatic. This script
later developed into what weknow as the block letters of the
Hebrew language used during theBabylonian exile and beyond to
our present day, we'll learnabout Andre's life and research
(01:45):
into this fascinating linguistictopic. Join me now for my
discussion with Andre rusma aswe delve into the rich nuances
of the biblical texts based ontheir pictographic concepts. I
came across your work many, manyyears ago called the written
(02:08):
language of Abraham Moses andDavid, a study of the
pictographic roots and basicnotions in the underlying fabric
of the earliest biblical script.
Yeah, and by your own admission,stating that you're not a
linguist, yet this researchpaper that you came up with is
(02:32):
quite extraordinary, in myopinion,
André (02:37):
From my earliest youth, I am a researcher. I have always
asked questions. From there, Icame to work as a scientist,
researcher with a big companyhere in the Netherlands. When I
came to know God in I was 17years old, I studied the Bible
(03:02):
very intensely, and I cameacross the fact that the Bible
is, of course, not written inEnglish or Dutch or any familiar
language to us. The largest partis written in Hebrew. So I got a
third of interest in Hebrew, andI started to read the Old
(03:24):
Testament in Hebrew that wasvery fascinating. I discovered
that the God of the Bible has aname, a four letter name in
Hebrew, that name was alwaysclose to statements like, I am
with you, to Abram, to Jacob, tothe people of Israel. Always,
(03:47):
when the name is mentioned, it'salso mentioned. He is with us.
He is there. You could translatethe name. He isn't and loving us
like John 316 says that He gaveHis Son because of His great
love for us. He does thatbecause he is that way. He
doesn't do that because who weare, but because of who he is.
(04:12):
He simply is there. He ispresent, and he wants to be
present in our lives. And that'sso fascinating that I was going
deeper and deeper on that wholesubject of his great name.
So with this kind of insight,I'm just really fascinated with
(04:33):
how you found his name to berepresented in Scripture.
I find it so fascinating the wayhe presents himself, for
example, to Moses. When Mosessays, I have to tell the people
who this God that has met me whohe is. And then God mentions
(04:56):
first his name, and then hesays, how compassionate.
Compassionate and how mercifulhe is. So his name is first, and
that is that he is there, andthen he is not there as a judge,
but as a compassionate TheHebrew word is raham, which is
the womb, basically
Avi ben Mordechai (05:18):
Raham or rahum. This is the idea of like
a motherly kind of compassionalmost continue
André (05:24):
on the womb is giving priority to the child, even when
the mother is almost dying, itwill still feed the child.
That's the way God is that Hegives, even gives his life for
us. Now that is the first wordafter his name that God mentions
(05:46):
to Moses. I am absolutelythrilled by such a compassionate
God. It's marvelous to Jacob. Hementioned his name too, but you
see that Jacob didn't have theBible. He just had a few stories
by his father, and that was it.
Avi ben Mordechai (06:06):
We had a conversation, and you were
mentioning about Satan orPharaoh of Egypt, and you were
telling me that these are notnames, they're actually just
more descriptions than they arenames. Yes, yes.
André (06:26):
Names are very important in the Bible. Names characterize
who the person is. Let me firstgive an example, a positive
example, of Elijah, his lifemission we see at the Mount
Carmel, experience that he hadwhere he led the people to take
(06:52):
distance from their idolatry andto say, yah is our God. So His
name is EL EE YAH, or EL EE, YAHHU. My God is Yah. So names are
very important, and some peopledo not get a name in the Bible,
(07:14):
like the pharaoh of Moses. Stilltoday, there's a lot of debate
going on. Who was that Pharaoh,the Bible doesn't mention his
name because he was an evilperson, the enemy of God. We
call Satan. But Satan is just aHebrew word for enemy, and it's
(07:36):
just that. So he just gets thetitle the enemy in the New
Testament, He is called Diablos.
That is the one who tears apart.
He's also mentioned the one whoaccuses but he doesn't get a
name. But even the midwives thathelped Moses being born are
(07:59):
getting a name, SIFA and Puah,they get honored.
Avi ben Mordechai (08:03):
So with the all eternal one and his name,
there is a tremendous amount ofarguing about the proper
pronunciation of thetetragrammaton the name. What's
your take on it? What do youthink?
André (08:22):
Well, before I speak about the pronunciation of the
name, I want to mentionsomething that we forgot. I
think that is that I said hisname is always associated with
him being there. You see that,for example, in the life of
Jacob, he didn't have the Bibleor whatever. So he had very
(08:43):
little experience with God fromothers to build his faith on,
and it's a bit wobbly. Still.
There were times when he wasfeeling close to God, and then
he used God's name, but therewere also, was a large stretch
of time that he did feel closebecause his favorite wife had
(09:04):
died, and he blamed God forthat, and he was angry for a
long time. We you see that hedoesn't use the name, and then
at the end of his life, when heis blessing his children, he
needs to use the name again. Sohe needs the presence of God to
(09:25):
bless his children. And you seein the in the Psalms, in but in
the entire Tanakh, you see thatwhen someone is feeling close to
God, he uses the name. But ifsomeone is feeling distant from
God or has distance himself, hedoesn't use the name. Take the
(09:49):
example of David in Psalm 27 heis on the mountaintop
emotionally, and then all of asudden he seems to fall down.
Down because he says, oh, Lord,help me and this and that. And
then all of a sudden he realizeswhat is bringing him down, and
that is that he was afraid thaton that mountain top he would be
(10:12):
forsaken by God. But then hesays, Okay, no, God is
different. My father and mymother did forsake me. And
indeed We know that. We knowthat when the Prophet came to
his father, and the same word isused there, that his father
says, yes, I've left him on thefield, the same word is used
(10:37):
there, as in Psalm 27 and soindeed, his father didn't find
him important enough. But Goddoes So have faith. I say to the
people like you say, who arelistening now and who say, Well,
(10:57):
I'm angry at God, try to talk itover with him, because he really
is love. And he will listen, andhe will listen. He will listen
to any argument. He can standit. If you're angry.
Avi ben Mordechai (11:12):
I'm thinking of something like Psalm 37 I was
just reading that do not fretbecause of evildoers. Do not be
envious toward wrongdoers. Theywill wither quickly, like the
grass and fade like the greenherb. Then 37 three, trust in
(11:33):
yud, hey. Vav, Hey, and do good.
Dwell in the land. Cultivatefaithfulness. Delight yourself
in yud, hey, Vav a yovah orYahweh, and he will give you the
desires of your heart, Commityour way to yud, hey, Vav, a
trust in Him, and He will do so.
(11:55):
It's things like Psalm 37 that Iread, and we tend to fret
because of all the people doingso well around us, some of the
evil people. And we tend tothink, Where is God? How come
I'm going through this? Whatabout them? They're doing so
well. Why am I so down in thedown in the dumps every year?
(12:18):
What's What's that all about,and we tend to get a very, very
angry. And I'm sure you've beenthrough your your own tests in
your life, I'm sure, and ittends to test us as to whether
we're going to continuebelieving in him or not.
André (12:34):
Yeah, in the end, Psalm 27 says, If I hadn't believed in
the goodness of God, he believedthat somehow, even when he was
in the dark place, that somehowhe would see the goodness of God
again. And we all may have thatfaith that we will see the
(12:54):
goodness of God again
Avi ben Mordechai (12:55):
even when we're in a very hard and
difficult dark place. Yes, yes,we're living in a world that is
not fair. Everything in thisworld is just. It's not fair.
André (13:08):
You see a lot of complaints about that in the in
the Psalms and, yeah, allthrough the Bible.
Avi ben Mordechai (13:14):
Okay, so continue on and take us into the
story of the name. You went tosome professors and rabbis, and
you confronted them to ask them,Well, how does this name sound?
How do you pronounce it? Socontinue on with that story.
André (13:33):
When I started to speak and write about the name, people
started to ask me, yes, how mustwe pronounce so I went to the
professors in Hebrew and inSemitic languages, etc. I was
very sad when I hear theiranswer. That is that they said,
well, we don't know anymore,because it was forgotten. And I
(13:56):
think all the names of othergods, Roman gods, Greek gods,
name the name them all. We stillknow them. And the name of our
own god, we wouldn't know Icouldn't understand that as a
scientist, as a researcher whoalways finds what he seeks for,
(14:17):
and certainly when I would askGod in my research, I would
always find something. So I wenton digging further, and they
said, Well, okay, in the in theBible, in the text, they in the
Middle Ages, and in half thecases, or a third of the cases,
(14:39):
they have added vowels that makeit sound like Jehovah. So that's
why people always thought thepronunciation was Jehovah, and
some people that I respect liketo care right to name your
Gordon, he still says it'sJehovah
now, Nehemia, Gordon, he citesthe. Grad Codex, and there are a
(15:02):
number of places where it'spointed with the vowels that
give it the sound. Jehovah. I'veseen those entries. I'm not a
linguist, so I can't tell youexactly what's going on. Do you
have any thoughts onthis? A number of cases there
is, they added the vowels likeJehovah. So I started to ask
these people further. They said,Well, nowadays, most people
(15:26):
believe it is Yahweh. I said,What is the basis? Well, it's
based on a correspondencebetween, I think it was a Greek
and the Roman in the firstcentury. One asked the other,
well, how was the pronunciation?
We don't know that. And theothers writes back, well, I have
(15:48):
heard a Samaritan say the name,and what he said was, and then
he writes down in Greek letters,jabe ya, beta, alpha, beta,
epsilon, in Greek, okay, but Isay that the Samaritans, just
like the rabbinic Jews, didn'tuse the name. They said it was
(16:11):
improper to speak the name outloud. Probably what this Greek
man or has heard from thatSamaritan was the replacement
that the Samaritans used thatwas Yaffe with a pay.
Avi ben Mordechai (16:27):
Is this almost like the Hebrew word,
YAFE? Like beautiful?
André (16:31):
Yes, the beautiful one, that is what they mentioned God
instead of using his name.
Interesting. Okay, so to me, itsounds very plausible that this
Greek man has heard theSamaritan speak about yafe, the
beautiful one. So it doesn't sayanything about the pronunciation
of the true name. So I had todig deeper to find the real
(16:53):
pronunciation. Well, I looked ata lot of there are a lot of
similar words, like Yehuda, theJews, the tribe. Name is Yehuda,
but all the people around Israelspoke about Yahuda. Now Yahuda
has only a D A dalet extra. Ifyou leave the dalet out, you get
(17:18):
Yahuwah. So I found a lot ofindications like this that the
pronunciation might have beenYahuwah.
Avi ben Mordechai (17:29):
In other words, the pronunciation that
sounds like Yahuwah without aDalet, because with the Dalet it
would be Yahoo da but withoutthe Dalet it is simply Yahuwah,
and you think that might havesome merit to it?
André (17:45):
Yes, and then I started to write about that, and someone
said to me, Well, you shouldread what one of the last high
priests, just like Daniel in theyear 70, when the Romans took
the Jews, there was also onehigh priest who was transported
(18:06):
to Rome and came to some powerthere again, and he wrote the
history of the Jews in one ofthose books, he says, You should
remember that It's not forconsonants, but it's for fowls.
So everybody in this day islooking, what vowels do we have
to add? No, we don't have to addvowels. We have to read the Yod,
(18:32):
hey, WAV, hey, as vowels, if Ipronounce that after each other,
I get ya, WA. I'm not sayingthat it is absolutely 100% sure,
but all indications seem to goin that direction. To me, what I
find more important is themeaning of the name than the
(18:54):
exact pronunciation. I mean, weall know that when we say Jesus
wrongly, and yet every Bible hasJesus. So I am proponent for
using the best guess that wehave for the pronunciation of
the Father's name, and like forJesus, that is, would be Yeshua
(19:16):
and for the father's name, Ithink it is Yahweh.
Avi ben Mordechai (19:20):
Could it be that Yeshua, his name is Yah
Shuah? I hear a lot of that kindof iteration.
André (19:29):
The first person in the Bible named Yeshua was was whom
we call Joshua,
Avi ben Mordechai (19:36):
Moses, right hand man. Yahushua, Joshua,
André (19:40):
If I re establish the yah instead of the year that
sometimes it has gone intolater, his name was probably
Yahushua. Yahushua. So if Jesuswas named after him, or had the
same name in that sense, Jesuswould be. Yahushua. But in the
(20:01):
time of the Romans, names hadchanged a little bit among the
Jews. So I think in that time,Jesus will have been called
Yeshua. A lot of people thinkabout biblical Hebrew. Biblical
Hebrew is a language the Hebrewof Moses or of the patriarchs,
and the Hebrew spoken in thetime of Jesus, it's 2000 years.
(20:25):
The Hebrew of Moses or thepatriarchs, was quite different
from the Hebrew of later times.
What I discovered, when I wantedto go back and wanted to go to
older manuscripts, etc, phonedone of those professors. And I
said, Well, what I encounter nowis a totally different script.
What is this? He said, ofcourse, the Jews had their own
(20:50):
script, but in Babylon for 70years, and sometimes some, even
longer, three generations wentto school in Babylon. They
learned the Babylonian script,and when they came back, all the
scriptures had to be rewrittenby Ezra and his followers into
this Babylonian script. But inthe time of the kings, you had
(21:16):
paleo Hebrew. That was adifferent script. It was a
slightly different language, butit was also a different script,
different letters. There is somerelation between the letters,
but still it looks quitedifferent.
Avi ben Mordechai (21:32):
Did the meanings of the words change or
just the script both?
André (21:36):
I think I have a very clear example. Is the word for
to be or to live in the BiblicalHebrew of Ezra, it was Haya. But
we know from other sources thatin the time of Moses, the word
for to live was Hava with a WAV.
A lot of words with Avi gotchanged vachad in Arabic, it is
(22:00):
still vachad For one unity. Andin Hebrew, it is either yahod or
Ahad with an Aleph at thebeginning.
Avi ben Mordechai (22:15):
Well we say in modern Hebrew, Yachad --
togetherness. So it soundsplausible what you're saying
there could be this akhad. Theyakad was a community of the
Qumran the Dead Sea Scrolls.
They obviously had thatunification idea in mind,
André (22:37):
We say, in here in Western Europe and elsewhere in
the world, we have wine inDutch, we say Vayin in French,
they say Vayin in German, theysay wine. It comes from the
Semitic root Vine. It hasbasically still the same letters
(23:00):
A, W or a V at the beginning, inthe middle, a yot or an eye, and
at the end, a noon or our letterN, but the Jews say yayin the
VAV became a yot. So a lot ofletters have changed over time.
Avi ben Mordechai (23:23):
You know, the Jews, they put numbers on the
letters because the letters arenumbers. So they they always say
that yain is has a numeric valueof 70, and the word secret has a
numeric value of 70 in Hebrew.
So they always say, when thewine goes in, the secret comes
out. So that's why they say, becareful what you're drinking and
(23:46):
how much on the Shabbat. Let'sgo on here. I want to have you
repeat something here when youwere saying to be or to live
Haya, spell it, please. Hi, yah.
Hey, yot, hey. Okay. And you saythat got changed to Haya, and
you think that Moses, when hewrote to be or to live, it would
(24:10):
be, hey, Vav, Hey, hey, Vav.
André (24:14):
So instead of the middle Yud, there was originally a
middle Vav,
Avi ben Mordechai (24:19):
so you're saying Moses had it as a vav in
the middle of the two letters,and it got changed to a yud for
Haya, not Hava. Yeah, do youthink that happened in the days
of Ezra?
André (24:32):
Perhaps I'm very curious, but I haven't found a linguist
who can tell me where all thesechanges when they when they
happened.
Avi ben Mordechai (24:42):
I'm Avi Ben Mordechai, and we'll return for
more with Andre rusma After wetake this short break. This is
real Israel talk radio. You.
Suzanne (25:00):
Avi, welcome back to the second half of real Israel
talk radio. This is episode 184here is your host, Avi Ben
Mordechai.
Avi ben Mordechai (25:11):
Welcome back to real Israel talk radio. I am
Avi Ben Mordechai, and I'mspeaking with Andre russma of
the Netherlands, discussing thewritten language of Abraham
Moses and David, often referredto as paleo Hebrew. We're
(25:32):
speaking about the pictographicroots and the basic notions that
underline the earliest biblicalscript of the Hebrew language.
Let's continue now where we leftoff just before the break.
André (25:48):
If you look at a Hebrew Dictionary and you look for
words that start with a WAV, youwill find very little, because
all the wav words that are stillthere in Arabic, for example,
like vain, they all got changed.
And I am very curious to seewhen and where that got changed.
Avi ben Mordechai (26:08):
You're talking about the "W" or "V"
words with a Vav in Scripture,there's very few wa words
beginning with a Vav. Todayunderstand you correctly, yes.
André (26:18):
In the in the strong, dictionaries, you see very
little about words...very few.
Avi ben Mordechai (26:25):
And what's your take on that? Why do you
think that then?
André (26:28):
Because all the VAV words somehow got changed, like Va Yin
for wine into Yayin.
Avi ben Mordechai (26:35):
Okay, let's go on to another question I have
here regarding the pictographicHebrew language. Do you have any
thoughts about the ancientpictographic Hebrew language as
you have come across it, andperhaps its relationship to the
old Egyptian hieroglyphics, theoldest
André (26:59):
script that we are aware of mainly from rock inscriptions
and a few pots because all thepaper and leather materials all
have wasted away of that oldage, the patriarch times. So we
have to rely on what is writtenin rock or on pots, and that's
(27:24):
not very much. But these days, alot of things are still being
found. So there is quite somematerial. And what linguists
have done is from the PaleoHebrew of the king's time, they
have tried to match those oldsymbols that they found to the
Paleo Hebrew symbols. And theyhave said, well, we see that the
(27:49):
old symbols had signified someobject. For example, debate is
the layout of early hood a tentwith a woman's part and a men's
part in it. And so what they sayis, Okay, that looks like the
(28:11):
later beIt in Paleo Hebrew,probably this was the early
Blatter beit. They assume eventhat older script was an
alphabet or an up God as the asthe professionals say it had
that function later, but I seepictures just like Jeff Benner
(28:32):
sees. For example, the word forfather in Hebrew is AB. It is
Aleph beit, now the old Aleph ofthe times of Moses and the
patriarch is an ox head. Evenour letter A is derived from it.
If you put our big letter Acapital on its side, you have
(28:56):
two horns and the head of the ofthe ox. Now for us in Holland,
when we think of oxen, we thinkof milk. When someone in Ireland
thinks of an oxen, he thinks ofmeat. So different people have
(29:16):
different associations with thehead of an ox or cow in 2000 BC.
What kind of associations wouldpeople have with the head of an
ox? It was fascinating to seepictures of castles in
Mesopotamia, not with the headsof lions in front of them, but
(29:39):
with heads of oxen in front ofthem. Why was the ox head a
symbol of power more than alion? Because the ox in those
days was the auroch.
Aroch in Hebrew was a largeanimal, like an ox, but even
much bigger. It was a very. Verypowerful, powerful animal,
(30:02):
yes, indeed, the AVI is ashoulder height of two meters.
Any lion would fear the orcs. Soif you want to symbolize, in
some way, the notion of beingbig, being strong, being the
first among all the others, thenthe ox head is the way to go. So
(30:29):
if you want to say to someonethat someone is the first, the
big one of the whole family, thefamily is the house. That's
biblical language in general,the family of David is the house
of David. Yes. So the word forfather, which is broader than
our English or Dutch word forfather in Hebrew, it's the
(30:52):
forefather, it's the progenitor,it's the founder of a
foundation. Is also calledAleph, but that's the big one of
the house (a Beit), so it's anox head and a floor plan of a
house, so it matches exactly thepictures match what it
signifies, even if I would be anearly Hebrew say the patriarchs,
(31:15):
and I would have to explain tomy children into pictures, what
is the word father, I would say,well, he is the big one of the
house. It made perfectly sensefrom the pictures. And then the
next word I saw was El God. It'sAleph Lamed. Aleph is head...ox
(31:37):
head. The Lamed is a shepherd'sstaff in the old script. So the
shepherd staff is for theshepherd. So the big, the Great,
the first Shepherd. Yes, that'sGod. Those were the first words
(31:58):
that I encountered in the oldscript, and that they made sense
when I interpret this script aspictures. So I said, Well, okay,
the scientists only say, well,it's only the first letter of
the of that word. But I say,Well, maybe, maybe I want to
(32:18):
keep open the option. Then italso is the notion of that
symbol in total.
Avi ben Mordechai (32:26):
So the Lamed is what you would call the 12th
notion, or idea of the AlephbeIt in Hebrew, being a leader a
shepherd involving a shepherd'sstaff or an ox goad, or
something involving the lamedand then it ties in with a lamed
(32:51):
word, an L word, like Lamed, toteach...a Teacher. Is that like
the idea of a guide, a shepherdstaff? Do you want to take that
a little further for us?
André (33:06):
Yeah, the word Lamed is lamed main Dalet. So the main is
water, or plentiful. I mean,when we have water, like in a
sea or so, you have plenty ofit, and when you have water,
then you have plenty. When youdon't have water, you are poor
(33:28):
in the Middle East. So water isthe symbol of a multitude, like
it's also in Revelation. Theseas are also the peoples of the
earth water is the either wateritself or it's standing for much
or a lot of and the Dalit is thedoor is to go into. So the
(33:54):
shepherd staff has a lot goingin. You want to have a lot of
sheep in your sheepfold. Youneed a lament. You need a
shepherd staff to have a lot ofthem go in. And then what you
are doing is you lament them.
You lead them.
Avi ben Mordechai (34:14):
How is the lamed then related to that of
teaching or to learn? What isthat relationship
André (34:22):
you direct by teaching you direct. And the lamed is the
way for a shepherd to direct thesheep.
Avi ben Mordechai (34:29):
The pictograph of the lamed is that
of a shepherd staff to thepictograph of the dalet is a
door as the pictograph of themem. Well, we'll come back to
the mem in a moment. I want tothen take this through the Aleph
beIt in a logical sequence. Solet's start with the aleph. And
(34:53):
the Aleph is the ox head that isthe notion of being powerful.
André (34:59):
First. Right. Primary, the big one, like the ox, is
among the other animals thefirst, the big one, the powerful
one.
Avi ben Mordechai (35:08):
And even the lions are afraid of them. Even
lions are afraid of you. Don'tthink a lion would come and
attack an
André (35:14):
ox, not the original ox.
Avi ben Mordechai (35:18):
Any relationship, perhaps, to what
we call, in English, thehippopotamus.
André (35:23):
Possibly they are not too related to, as far as I know,
and
Avi ben Mordechai (35:27):
out of the ox head in the pictograph we have
ALUF, it's numerically, thenumber 1000 in Hebrew, is there
a particular reason why it'srelated to that? Or do you want
to comment on that?
André (35:42):
No, and there's still some debate going on whether
it's really 1000
Avi ben Mordechai (35:47):
How about like Joshua, he is called an
aloof, an ALUF like a general.
André (35:54):
Yeah, it could well have been not 1000 but all that is
below a general of those days,which could be less than 1000s
Sure, sure. We are not 100%sure, but yet.
Avi ben Mordechai (36:07):
Okay, let's go forward now to the bait. In
the pictographic language ofMoses, the bait is the idea of
being, it's almost, it's apreposition in modern Hebrew
like to be inside or with or ator a part of something.
André (36:27):
The notion of a house or a tent is where you are inside.
So yes, it's the propositionprefix of being in.
Avi ben Mordechai (36:36):
Now, I noticed you had a comment here
about the Chinese language. Whatis your association with
understanding the Chinesecharacters?
André (36:46):
When I started to study all this in more depth, some 18
years ago, I had a good friendwho was a sinologist, so he
introduced me to the originalChinese pictographic language. I
saw that the Chinese pictographshave something that resembles
(37:08):
debate very much as being a boxand associated to the verb to
hide something where you couldbe in I'm still looking where
are the origins of this script.
I am not surprised that youasked about Egyptian
hieroglyphs, the Egyptians, theSumerians, the Chinese all those
languages started withpictographic language.
(37:33):
Pictographic script. I wouldn'tbe surprised if also this
Hebrew, the Semitic languagesstarted also with pictographs.
The Chinese make it complicatedbecause a lot of people say,
well, pictographic languagesneed 1000s of symbols. Yes,
that's because the Chineseconcatenate all the symbols to
(37:57):
form a word on top of eachother. Semites had a free, much
easier way to do it. They justplace them after each other, and
then you get a word. We still dothat. Every day. We have a book
mark, ah, a book and then a bookmark, yes, house and a house.
(38:18):
Hold a
Avi ben Mordechai (38:21):
house and a household.
André (38:23):
We concatenate every day, every second. Concatenation is
what they what I apparently didwith the symbols that might
indicate that these symbolsmight be the notions from the
very beginning, from the time ofelim. If so, I would expect to
have to see some similaritiesbetween the original notions of
(38:47):
Hebrew or of the Semiticlanguages group and the Chinese
and Sumerian and Egypt,
Avi ben Mordechai (38:56):
according to the to the research of of Isaac
Moses in he thinks thateverything began in the garden
with the Hebrew language, evenin script form, I suppose, and
then it got scrambled, likescrambled eggs in Genesis 11 at
the Tower of Babel.
André (39:14):
Yes, what we see is a lot of words in European languages
and in Semitic languages and ineven in Chinese that are
similar, that is also what Mosesand sees you asked about the
hieroglyphs and the Semiticscript. Well, the Semitic script
(39:36):
that we are talking about thereis a find, an early find, near
haram, where Abraham was. Thereare numerous finds in the Sinai,
Sinai in Egypt, so all on theroute of Abraham and the
Israelites later, I think thatthe pictographic pre Hebrew
(39:56):
script, so to speak, is olderthan. And Egypt hieroglyphs. I
see no reason why theIsraelites, if they invented the
script only in Egypt, why theywould look at the Egypt symbols
here Egyptian hieroglyphs?
Because why would I they havepictures every everywhere around
(40:18):
them, and a very clear exampleis the same.
Avi ben Mordechai (40:23):
I want to come back to that. Okay, I would
like you to now take us into theHebrew letter for gimel, the
sound. Give us some some of yourthoughts on that, please.
André (40:35):
The Gimel is still the letter that I am most uncertain
of. Nobody knows what it standsfor. Some people say it is a
throw stick. Some shepherdsmight have used something that
is also akin in Australia, aboomerang. Yeah. It could have
been something like that. Itappears that it also was known
(40:59):
in in the Middle East, at first,I also thought of in Sumerian,
you have this the same symbol,and it is a foot, a foot, a foot
where we stand on. And there area lot of words that make sense
when it is a foot. For example,the word Gimel or Gamal, a
camel. Even in our language, itis then to be interpreted as a
(41:24):
foots with water for a leader,which was what a camel is for.
Avi ben Mordechai (41:29):
It seems to relate to, perhaps the idea of
carrying or to gather somethingtogether, or some idea of
movement or a foundation orstrength,
André (41:42):
someone has suggested you have a tool that carpenters use
that is just a right angle.
Avi ben Mordechai (41:49):
The carpenters out there that are
listening, they'll know what itis, but I guess you call it a
carpenter square or something toto measure, yeah.
André (41:57):
Okay, so it might be something used in building. It's
so often related to something orlike a foundation or something
like feet under something, or
Avi ben Mordechai (42:10):
I'm thinking of words here, like gavav, the
idea of a hill or a height orsomething very tall.
André (42:18):
Perhaps it is a letter that appears furry, seldom in
the old inscriptions, so we knowvery little about it.
Avi ben Mordechai (42:28):
Jeff Benner says that the Gimel is like the
gum referred to a leg. So thatmay very well be the word that
that's connected to the gimel,there's also this sound of the
Guh Guh of Gimel. You can hearthat of like a footstep when
you're walking a guh, guh guh,yeah.
André (42:51):
We didn't talk about the sound of the letters yet, but
with the Aleph, your throat isconstricted basically the sound
of the airline. Yeah, it's like,what happens when you meet that
huge animal that your breathstops in your throat? The
(43:13):
linguists call it a guttural,this gutteral stop, so it's your
breath stops in your throat.
Avi ben Mordechai (43:21):
Ah, but we don't have we don't have that
sound in English at all.
Unknown (43:25):
That's what happens when you see such an animal.
Your breath stops in yourthroat.
Avi ben Mordechai (43:30):
Okay, let's now go ahead and talk about the
pictographic Dalit
André (43:36):
early inscriptions. You see a symbol that people,
linguists have interpreted as afish a dog. Yeah, yeah. I have a
little appendix in my documentabout something of the Dalit
because I discovered a lot ofthings. Of those days we have
(43:58):
hinges on the door. But in thosedays, the hinges weren't invited
yet a door could turn open wasby having the door board and
then a big pole, and that polewas attached to that board and
it was put in a hole in theground.
Avi ben Mordechai (44:19):
I remember seeing that in my tour guide
school, that bowl in the ground,in the
André (44:26):
hole? Yeah, a lot of those stones are still being
found. A big stone with a 60centimeters wide or so, yeah,
with a hole in it. Yes, that'sthe downward part of an old
hinge.
Avi ben Mordechai (44:41):
So it's the precursor to what would later
become the door hinge. Yeah.
Okay, and so the letter Dalet.
What does it represent?
André (44:51):
Pictographically, originally the triangle dalet is
a 10 door, which is just onepiece of cloth. Both, yeah, but
it also appears as the, what Ihave here as the third symbol,
and that is a flat piece of woodon a on a pole, the door. And by
(45:12):
that, any movement I mean thedoor was the part of the house
that could move, yeah. And also,earlier, it was symbolized only
by a fish, the idea offlexibility movement to enter
the
Avi ben Mordechai (45:27):
door. So if we get the Hebrew word, dalet,
lamed, Tav dalet, what is thatsymbolizing? If you were to
break those down into theirpictograph forms. What is that
telling us?
André (45:44):
It's the door with that pole and the tuff is a
construction, so it's a door ona pole construction. That's a
true door, not a tent door.
Avi ben Mordechai (45:54):
You said, not a tent door, like a tent flap,
yeah. And so with the lamed inbetween the Dalit and the tab.
What is that signifying thelimit is the pole, but a lamet
Has that pictograph. We'll cometo it in a moment. The lamed is
kind of an idea of a guide, ashepherd staff, a pole. Let me
(46:17):
see here. Where is this from?
Proverbs 26 as the door turnsupon its hinge, or some kind of
movement, so the lazy man turnsupon his bed. When I
André (46:30):
see that picture of a of a door in its hole, with the
pole in the hole, then I seethat a door turns upon its
hinge, in modern view, it wouldturn upon its hinge. It would
hang from its hinge.
Avi ben Mordechai (46:46):
Sure, sure.
So would we say that the thatthe dalet is really something
that is representing not just anopening, but also something to
expose something else, maybe,maybe, but it's definitely an
entrance,
André (47:02):
definitely an entrance, an entrance and movement.
Avi ben Mordechai (47:05):
So when Yeshua says I am the door, he's
saying I am the entrance,entrance by which you can move
in. And so we got the Englishletter D out of it, as in dog,
André (47:19):
and you still see it. The Greeks turned everything around
because they wrote from left toright. So that door on a pole,
you still see an hour capital D.
Avi ben Mordechai (47:30):
Let's go on and continue with the letter.
Hey, the ah, maybe a breath. OrHalla, what's this breathy hay
all about?
André (47:45):
I think it's the most fascinating letter in all of the
old Aleph beit. It's originallya person with his hands or her
hands up in the air and a kneesbent. It is worldwide to lift
your hands in the air is asymbol of surrender. Look at a
(48:05):
football stadium when theyscore, all the hands go up in
the air. Why? Because of joy,internationally and of all ages.
Hands up in the air is a symbolof joy. It's the symbol of awe.
When I'm in great awe, I put myhands up and I say, ah, that's
(48:27):
just the sound of it also, ah,
Avi ben Mordechai (48:29):
you've been listening to Episode 184 and
part one of my discussion withAndre brucema about the
pictographic roots and basicnotions that underline the
earliest biblical script of theHebrew language, what we have
(48:50):
come to know as paleo Hebrew wasdeveloped from a script that was
used in A very large area,ranging from current Syria to
present day Egypt and the Sinaidesert roughly about 1000 years
before Yeshua yah willing willreturn for more on this subject
(49:14):
from Part Two, next time you cancontact Andre through his
website@hallelujah.nl for theNetherlands. I'll spell it out
for you. Hallelujah, H, A L, L,E U Y A H. That's H, a l, l, e
(49:40):
l, u, y, a, h--www.halleluyah.nl, I'm Avi Ben
Mordechai, and this is realIsrael talk radio.
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