Eshel

Episode 165: Modi and Leo are joined by Miryam Kabakov, the executive director of Eshel, an organizing that seeks to build LGBTQ+ inclusive Orthodox Jewish communities.

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_04 (00:00):
Hello everybody and welcome to And Here is Modi.
We are joined today with myhusband Leo.
Hi, everyone.
Hi.
And then we are also joined withMiriam Kabukov.

SPEAKER_01 (00:15):
Good.
You got it.

SPEAKER_04 (00:16):
Thank you.
It's not that hard.

SPEAKER_01 (00:17):
First try.

SPEAKER_04 (00:17):
It's not that hard at all.

SPEAKER_01 (00:19):
Right.

SPEAKER_04 (00:19):
If you're Russian, if you're Polish issues.
Kabakov.
Who is the executive director ofEschel?
And Eschel is uh an organizationfor Orthodox Jews that are gay.

SPEAKER_01 (00:34):
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 (00:34):
Part of the LGBT plus community.

SPEAKER_01 (00:37):
Yes.
Yes, the whole thing.
All the uh letters.

SPEAKER_05 (00:40):
All the letters.

SPEAKER_01 (00:41):
And um not just that.

SPEAKER_03 (00:43):
All the letters.
All the letters.

SPEAKER_01 (00:45):
Just throw them all in there.
That we wanna our missionreally, what it really, really
is, it is we do a lot of things,but it's to make orthodoxy a
place for everybody.
So that if you come out you donot need to leave your home, the
community, you don't need toleave your shoal, you don't need
to leave all your spiritualitybehind.

(01:07):
And I think my father wouldalways say, a blessed memory, is
it good for the Jews?
Like that was anything in life.
Is it good for the Jews?

SPEAKER_00 (01:14):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14):
And I believe that it's good for the Jews.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16):
Same.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17):
Yeah.
That like the diversity, the whowe are.
This is who we are.
Forget diversity.
It's who we are within ourcommunities.

SPEAKER_04 (01:24):
I before I met Eschel, I was I was on that
journey.
Yeah.
I was keeping everything andalso being gay.

SPEAKER_01 (01:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:33):
You know, keeping all the rel uh whatever
observant Jewish things I wasdoing, yeah.
And and being gay, and I neverreally had a um a problem with
it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:44):
Yeah, why not?

SPEAKER_04 (01:45):
Because I just didn't.

SPEAKER_01 (01:46):
What well tell me about that.

SPEAKER_04 (01:47):
It was just um I I I I can go to synagogue and I can
go on a date with a man.

SPEAKER_01 (01:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (01:52):
So it's not a big deal for me.

SPEAKER_01 (01:53):
The same day.

SPEAKER_04 (01:54):
The same the same day.

SPEAKER_01 (01:55):
And it was like seamless for you.

SPEAKER_04 (01:57):
It was seamless.
I didn't have um crazy um uhguilt and back and um and f
feelings of of doing somethingwrong.

SPEAKER_01 (02:09):
Yeah.
Do you know why?

SPEAKER_04 (02:10):
I I don't.
I'm just blessed.
God bless bl blessed me withthat.

SPEAKER_01 (02:14):
Yeah, it's a gift.
It could maybe your parents,maybe your upbringing, like the
love that they showed you.
I'm just poking around herebecause I'm wondering if it's
like you just were raised with afeeling of self-acceptance.

SPEAKER_04 (02:28):
I don't know about that.
I was I no, I'm it's not I'm notthat I'm not a catherapy person.

SPEAKER_05 (02:33):
So I mean we've been together 10 years, and that's
something I can't, I don't youyou say the same sound bite over
and over.
You're like, I was doing it, Ihad no problem, I don't know
what everyone's talking about,and I still haven't like fully
digested what that looks andmust have felt like.

SPEAKER_04 (02:45):
It's a feeling inside.
You I feel inside that I'm thisis not a bad thing I'm doing.
Yeah, it's not a bad thing I'mdoing, even if somebody says it
is, yeah, inside you have afeeling, you have an inner
feeling, and I'm like, I lovegoing to synagogue, and then I
have a date tonight withsomebody who's named uh Bruce.

SPEAKER_01 (03:03):
Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_04 (03:04):
Whatever it was, uh, you know, and that was what it
was.

SPEAKER_01 (03:07):
Okay.
So that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 (03:09):
What about you?
You're growing up.
What about your your how did howdid you become the executive
director of Eschel?

SPEAKER_01 (03:15):
So I'll say that I actually attribute my ability to
synthesize all of these things,all of these identities, to my
day school upbringing.
I went to Ramaz.

SPEAKER_04 (03:25):
Um Second guest in a row.
We've had to Ramaz.

SPEAKER_01 (03:28):
I know you guys are on a streak.
I love this.

SPEAKER_04 (03:30):
So I'm gonna hit you with the same question.
So you you must have come from arich family too.

SPEAKER_01 (03:34):
So at Ramaz, you either had to have money or you
had to be really, really smart.
I was neither of those things.
And I think that um we so I'mone of six children.

SPEAKER_05 (03:46):
Same.

SPEAKER_01 (03:47):
You too, right?

SPEAKER_05 (03:48):
I have five sisters.

SPEAKER_01 (03:49):
Wait, where are you in the birth order?

SPEAKER_05 (03:50):
I'm the second oldest.

SPEAKER_01 (03:52):
Okay.
So you are the middle child ofthe first set, and I'm the
middle child of the second set.
Never heard of put that way, butso in social work school, they
say you have to divide thefamily into threes.
There's oldest, middle,youngest, oldest, middle,
youngest.
So, you know, whatever youfigure out if you're four kids,
then the fourth one is likeeither the oldest or they're the
baby, whatever.
But um, we were six kids, and atone point Rabbi Luxteen wanted

(04:17):
to give my mother an award forthe most kids in day school at
one time at Ramaz.

SPEAKER_02 (04:21):
Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 (04:22):
Yeah, he was sort of joking.
But I think they just love thatwe were a big family and we were
very active in the shoulder thatwent along with, you know, uh
KJ.
And um, and my upbringing taughtme that Hashem loves me for who
I am, and Hashem made me thisway.
God made me this way.
So, like, how do you put thoselike that?

(04:44):
Has to be the equation is uh Godloves me for who I am, God made
me this way, I'm okay, right?
This is who I am, I can't changeit.
And I tried.
I don't know if you tried.
Did you try?

SPEAKER_04 (04:55):
Uh I I I dabbled in it.
I dabbled in it, but it again,um it it didn't everything just
well, everything I did that feltright, I stayed with.
And everything that did thisdoesn't feel right, let me not
do that.

SPEAKER_01 (05:08):
You just didn't do it, right?
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (05:10):
But yeah, this is Hashem, the way Hashem made it.
We just came out of Yom Kippur.
I'm gonna just set up for justfor the the audience that's
listening to us right now.
We don't tape um, this isn'tlike a live taping, obviously,
and it's also we tape out oforder.
We are sitting today, we'velanded in our chairs while
having watched the news of allthe hostages being released.

(05:32):
So that's happening in ourthere's we want to be in the
streets screaming and yelling ofhappiness and singing and
simchatura and all of thatstuff.
And um, and so that's what weand we we just finished the high
holidays too.
Yeah, you know the the the theprayer keyna kachoma beyond in
the the the clay in the in thehand of the uh of the the

(05:54):
creator, the potter, yeah, orthe silver in the in the in the
hands of the of the silversmithor the gold and that which is
the the the one of the prayersduring Khondre services.
It's like literally you createdus, you did it, you you made us
this way, right?
You know, that's such a strongprayer to me.
Whenever we sing that, I'm like,wow, yeah.

(06:15):
So yes, God created you.

SPEAKER_01 (06:16):
Right.
So what am I supposed to doabout this?
Yeah, I I can only just lovemyself for who I am.
And the other thing that Ramaztaught me was that we're living
in the modern world.
This is modern orthodoxy, right?
We're living in the modernworld.
We have to make sense ofmodernity in light of Torah and
in light of what we know.
And so, um, you know, it'snobody thinks, well, a lot of

(06:38):
people think it's a choicestill, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_05 (06:41):
That's a whole nother podcast episode, I think.

SPEAKER_01 (06:43):
Yeah.
That you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_05 (06:45):
Well, we could talk about that, just that thesis for
a long time.

SPEAKER_01 (06:49):
Choice versus right.
Um and but, you know, like itmodern science has shown that
it's not a choice.
So, like, here we are, and whatare we gonna do?
Am I supposed to stop beingorthodox, stop keeping mitzvah,
leave my community behind, leaveeverything that gave me
everything that I am?
You know, that's really what itis for me.
Like, my I don't, you know, Idon't know how you both how you

(07:10):
feel about your religiousupbringing, but like it gave me
so much.
It gave me an identity, it gaveme a sense of purpose in life,
and you know, um, it held me.
And I love the rituals.
I'm a huge Davening nerd.
My partner and I, we just likelove Davening together, I know,
right?
And um that's what it gave me.
It gave me all that.

SPEAKER_05 (07:29):
Yeah, I think I part of the things that people most
of your community and your fanbase is just adoration and loves
you, and they're so positive andwonderful.
The small sliver that we hearfrom who can't seem to grapple
with this fact that you are bothobservant and gay, they I what I

(07:50):
don't understand is they wantyou to what which one do they
want?
Do they want you to stop beingJewish or do they want you to
stop being gay?
Because to say that they justwant you to stop being gay is to
acknowledge that there must bepeople in their community who
they know are just putting apillow over it and choking it
down and hiding it and leaving,you know, it just in an effort

(08:12):
not to leave those traditionsbehind, sort of masking what
they need to mask so that theycan keep their their place in
the community, they can have ashoulder to go to, they don't
have to leave their families.
And I think people with youcan't seem to kind of wrap their
head around the multi-facetedaspect of your spirituality in
your personal life.

SPEAKER_04 (08:32):
Right.
And to answer your question, dothey want me to stifle being gay
or not?
I don't care.
I could care less what theywant.
I'd I'm on a mission to createlaughter, bring Meshik energy,
uh, anshebad, get into Olamhaba.
I I am on a path.
I am on that that's what I'mdoing.
And what if some guy has thisquestion about that's his or her

(08:56):
problem, not mine.
And I focus on the people whoare like genuinely uh understand
what I'm doing, we are doingtogether, you know, you and I,
Leo and I.

SPEAKER_05 (09:07):
Um well, I think that's what you said about
bringing it into modernity.
That's where you lose people, alot of people, from what I from
my perspective as a non-Jew whois operating it within the
community, is that you know, Ihear Torah is Torah, you can't
change, this is what God says,and then but then there's also
this idea of like, well, it's2025 and we understand how you

(09:30):
know white people are just gay.

SPEAKER_00 (09:32):
Right.

SPEAKER_05 (09:32):
And so how do you fold that together in a nice
origami crane for people to playwith?

SPEAKER_01 (09:40):
I think you know what Modi's saying is like you
live your life, you're doing itin partnership, that's actually
a Jewish value, you know thatdoesn't have to be, you know, pe
someone can live their lifealone and be very productive,
but you're creating somethingtogether.
And and that, you know, they saylike if you don't have physical
children, if you teach, thenthose people become your

(10:02):
children, and that is a way toparent.

SPEAKER_04 (10:04):
Um very nice said, very nice, very well said.

SPEAKER_01 (10:07):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of flexibility
within our tradition to givegive bring the gifts forth, you
know, that we have to give.
And I I think the most importantthing is your creativity and the
gifts you bring to the world.
Um, and I think people areseeing that with both of you.
They're seeing that.
Like they're not complainingthat much about you being gay or
not being married to a woman,right?

(10:27):
They're just really there toreceive what what your gift is.

SPEAKER_03 (10:31):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
So, yeah, that's how I see it.
You know, what is what is yourpurpose?
Hashem put me here for apurpose, and I have to live that
out.
If it's good for the world, ifit's good for the Jews, I gotta
live it out, you know?

SPEAKER_05 (10:45):
So how so where is your purpose?
Yeah, how does how you think youknow how did Eschel sprout out
of that?

SPEAKER_04 (10:52):
Yeah, so I think for me for people who don't know,
that you should give a littlehistory of Ashel.
That's where where it began, howit began.

SPEAKER_01 (10:59):
Yes, sure.
I'll do that.
Um I'll just say that um uh butfirst I'll start with history of
myself, because that's I knowthat better.
Um, or just as well.
That I grew up in Ramaz, and itwas not easy for me to accept
the fact that I was gay backthen.

SPEAKER_04 (11:13):
In high school, you knew you were gay?
Yeah.
Were you out?

SPEAKER_01 (11:16):
No, God no, nobody was out.
Oh, good for you.
Was it good?

SPEAKER_05 (11:22):
I was out at a public high school in like rural
Georgia.
Oh god.

SPEAKER_01 (11:26):
Yeah, how was that?

SPEAKER_05 (11:27):
One gay kid.
Yeah, everyone loved me.
How could they not?

SPEAKER_01 (11:32):
What's not to love?

SPEAKER_05 (11:33):
No, some people tried to start stuff and then I
would just quickly shut thatdown.

SPEAKER_04 (11:36):
But anyway, back to the time frame with the high
school, you know, like in the80s.
In the 80s, yeah.
It was a different time.

SPEAKER_01 (11:44):
I was with um Elon Gold's brother.
Ari.
Ari was in Ramaz at that time,and there were there were a few
of us, and we only discoveredeach other afterwards, you know,
like 10 or 20 years later.
Um, we'd show up at like thesame clubs or the same groups or
whatever happening on the upperwest side at the time.
And um, but it took me a reallylong time to stop praying that I

(12:07):
would be different and stoplooking for alternatives.
Like, like I went to yeshiva inIsrael after high school, and
the first person I came out towas the rabbi of this yeshiva.
And he said, you know, you justneed to develop your feminine
side.
And the way that you do that isthat you go work with children.
And so the following year Istayed an extra year and I did

(12:29):
She Witlu and Me, which is uhnational service where you work,
you volunteer, and I worked atum Eit Hanim, um, the um the
children's division of EightHanim, but with severely uh
developmentally developmentallydisabled children.

SPEAKER_03 (12:45):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (12:46):
And it was one of the most difficult experiences
of my life.
And it was the most gratifying,and it actually like I, you
know, grew up during that yearvery much so.
And at the end of the year, Iwent back to him and he said,
So, where'd you work with thechildren?
And I told him, and he was like,I didn't mean like like that,
like were you actually like youknow, like like you're touching

(13:07):
the edges of your soul everysingle day, working with
incredibly um challengedchallenging kids who grew up in
very challenging places and ontop of their mental illness.
And I said to him, But you know,I I really am still not feeling
it.
Um, you know, the attraction tomen, and you know, and this
isn't didn't really do it forme.
Um, but then, you know, so Ileft Israel and then I went to

(13:30):
Stern College because I love theJewish stuff and I wanted more
of it.
And at Stern I met my firstgirlfriend, and we were like
under the radar or 34th Streetand Park, like just dating and
doing all those crazy things,and nobody knew.
And we were terrified becausethere was a legend of a lesbian
who had been at Stern Collegewho had gotten a legend of a
lesbian.

SPEAKER_05 (13:49):
Legend of a lesbian.
That's it.

SPEAKER_01 (13:54):
We can oh my God, I love that.
Um, that she got kicked out, youknow, for not she was not just
because she was gay, but she wascausing a lot of other kinds of
trouble.
Ruckus.
Ruckus.
And um I knew I needed to leavelike starting college.
I needed to get out of town.
And so I moved actually toCalifornia to get like as far
away as possible because it wasnot good for my mental health to

(14:17):
be completely closeted, livingthat life.
And when I was in, I lived inBerkeley and I met this group of
other women um who were who wereorthodox and they were lesbians,
and they sort of were like, theywere actually all converts.
It was very interesting.
And like they were like, Well,you teach us how to be orthodox
and we'll teach you how to begay.

(14:37):
It was like this beautifulcrossover.
And um, and so they actuallyhelped me come out a little bit
more to myself and stop hopingthat I was somebody else or, you
know, that I would change.
And then I was gonna go to I wasgonna go back to visit Israel
for like just two weeks to seemy family.
And um, one of the women said tome, you know, there's this new
group forming in Jerusalem, andyou should go.

(14:59):
And it's actually gonna be thereduring the two weeks that you're
there.
And so I was like, oh my God,you know, Orthodox lesbians in
Jerusalem, what could be betterthan that?
So I um I get the address, andat the end of my two weeks, I go
to the group.
That's it was like that patternof like the third Thursday or
whatever.
And it's sort of like in thisdarkly lit room with all these

(15:20):
like women lounging around oncouches, you know, just
socializing.
And I walk in, and the firstperson I see is the woman who
interviewed me to get into SternCollege.

SPEAKER_03 (15:29):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (15:30):
And I was like, what are you doing here?
And she said the same thingyou're doing here.
And it was like that's like theAsimon dropped, you know, like
uh and I was like, okay, like Ithink this is it's okay.
It's I'm gonna be okay.
She's okay.
She was my role model at Stern,and now she's here.
So that's what sort of was themoment for me of full

(15:53):
self-acceptance.
And then I came back to New Yorkactually two years later, not
two weeks later, because I hadfound my Chevra.
And during that time I did a lotof like my group of friends, um
and they became my entirefamily, you know, because you
have to develop alternatefamilies when your family's
rejecting you.

SPEAKER_04 (16:11):
So you thought me your parents were not into this
at all.

SPEAKER_01 (16:15):
Well, no, not in the beginning.
They had a wonderful evolution,but it took like 20 years.

SPEAKER_03 (16:21):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (16:21):
And only until they met my partner, Mara, and they
fell in love with her too.
But it was like I'd kissed a lotof frogs, you know what I'm
saying?
Like it was like, okay, Miriam,when are you gonna get married?
Finally, like they were so sickof like me not being settled.
All their other five childrenhad settled down that I think
they were throwing in the towela little bit on the gay thing.
They just wanted me to be happy.

SPEAKER_04 (16:42):
At what age were you when they were throwing in the
towel?

SPEAKER_01 (16:45):
Uh, I was like 35 or something.

SPEAKER_04 (16:46):
At what age were they?

SPEAKER_01 (16:48):
Oh, um, my mother, like in their 70s, I think.
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (16:52):
Parents, I I've spoken about this.
Parents get to a point wherethey're like enough worrying
about you, they're more worriedabout themselves.
Uh it's like, okay, okay, gay,gay.
I gotta make sure I get to thecenter and I gotta make sure we
get the groceries, and I gotthem, they're more on that.
But yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
They don't have that fight inthem to like, but but right,
right.

SPEAKER_01 (17:10):
And I was the last one to, you know, leave home
basically.
I just I needed, I don't knowhow you felt, but I needed more
of them.
Uh, you know, growing up one ofsix, you're like in this crowd
of people.
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 (17:21):
No, you're not gonna get the hell out of there.

SPEAKER_01 (17:24):
You wanted to get the hell out of there.
Yeah.
So that, yeah.
So the older kids in my familyalso just immediately left.
Uh, and I just hovered.
And I just needed more with themand time with them and um and to
r reconcile.
And after a long time, you know,they finally gave in.
Um, and then Mara and I sharedour dream, like we, you know, we

(17:45):
got together with her parentsand my parents.
We're like, so let's talk aboutthe wedding.
And um, Mara and I had a realvision for the wedding.
Really?
Really big vision.
And we said to them, first,like, okay, but what's your
vision?
And the four of them had gottentogether and they had talked
about what they thought ourwedding should be.
And they said, Well, we're gonnaall go on a cruise and we're

(18:06):
gonna do like a little ceremonyon the deck of the cruise, and
that's how you'll get marriedwith the six of us there.

SPEAKER_04 (18:12):
And then pushed them all off.
That's what I was saying.
There you go.
And then we're gonna all jumpoverboard.
Man overboard.
We're going to the buffet.

SPEAKER_00 (18:21):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 (18:22):
We're going to the buffet.
It's insane to me.
I'm gonna have to stop it.
You asked your parents whattheir vision for your wedding
is.
That needs to be.
I think most people do, though.
Most people do.

SPEAKER_01 (18:35):
In, you know, how am I gonna get them on board if I
don't know what they'rethinking?
Yeah.
Um, and then, you know, theylooked at us and they were like,
well, we told them that ourvision, they were like, that's
not our vision.
And ours was, you know, 250people for an entire weekend
retreat over Shabbos and then abig freaking wedding on Sunday
with the klasmatics and, youknow, all that.

(18:55):
So that's what we had in theend.
They gave in.
And I think they were so happybecause they got to celebrate.
And they actually were terrifiedthat I was gonna be lonely and
sad and have zero community.
Because when they were growingup, you know, that's what they
saw.
They didn't know a single, well,they knew like one single gay
person, and that person wasreally scary to them or not

(19:17):
healthy.
Like my father was um a doctorduring the AIDS crisis on the
lorry side.
He saw a lot of people comethrough his door.
So the first thing that he saidto me was like, the only people
I know who are gay have AIDS.
Either they have AIDS if they'remen, or if they're women,
they're usually alcoholics.

SPEAKER_04 (19:37):
Wow.
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (19:38):
And I was like, Daddy, uh, yeah, that's what I
I've been explaining to that.

SPEAKER_04 (19:43):
You know, when we were growing up and we were in
our twenties and thirties, thethe gay wasn't associated with a
congressman or uh or a doctor orlawyers that are all gay and gay
flags everywhere.
Gay was just AIDS.
Right.
That's all that was.
So it was a very difficult timeto come out.

SPEAKER_01 (20:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (20:00):
Very, very difficult time.

SPEAKER_01 (20:02):
But the AIDS crisis actually brought it up to the
Jewish, the medical communityand the Jewish community.
Like, how do you how do youtreat somebody who has AIDS,
even though you think that whatthey're doing is completely
wrong and how they got it, youknow, is like um, you know,
proof that they are evil orthey're doing evil.
So there was so much dialogueabout like how you just treat

(20:24):
somebody who's sick and dying.
And and I think it changed a lotof people's hearts and minds
back then.
Um I think people had to look atgay people with compassion and
um, you know, just like youknow, let's see the person
through, you know, beyond theirillness and try to get to know

(20:46):
them.
So that's the world that I thathe was in, and that's the world
that I grew up, came out in.
Um and so it was really hard forthem.
They did not think I was gonnabe a happy person.
So this humongous wedding waslike proof to them.
And it really at that momentthey were like, oh, she wants
just what the other five have.

(21:08):
You know, like she wants, andshe has it.
She has this huge community.
We have a huge, you know, thankGod, amazing friends, amazing um
Jewish community.
No, it wasn't really in Eschel,because Eschel didn't exist at
that point, but it was like alot of Orthodox and conservative
Jews who were our friends whoaccepted us and loved us.
And my parents invited like ahandful of their closest

(21:31):
buddies, their friends, and theycelebrated with us.
And these are like Yu rabbis andyou know, people who are out
there in the Orthodox world.
So they saw that it waspossible.
And I saw that it was possible.
Okay, so um, but back to thegroup that I went into
Jerusalem.
I came back to New York aftertwo years and started the same
group in New York.
It was called the Orthodox ofNew York.

(21:54):
Maybe that's the name of this.

SPEAKER_04 (21:55):
Uh I'll keep that tab.
Orthodox we're gonna use.
What's the dice?

SPEAKER_01 (22:01):
And um every month we met at the center downtown,
because you know, couldn'treally meet in a Jewish space.
And um, people would come everymonth, more and more and more
people.

SPEAKER_03 (22:13):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
And we developed this amazing community of like,
you know, 500, 600 womenthroughout the years that I did
it.
And a lot, there was a lot oforganizing then in um, you know,
on the upper west side, gaystuff, Jewish stuff.

SPEAKER_04 (22:27):
This is all before internet too.
This is all before there wasFacebook chat groups and
WhatsApp groups and emails andall that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (22:34):
Just yesterday I let go of the domain name
Orthodox.org.
So uh literally, the guy calledme and he's like, this is like
really old.
But I did have a website back inthe 90s, and um and it was
great.
And it was really the beginningof this community that we have
now.
And um it's been a long haul,and we have a warm line, and I
had a warm line back then.

(22:55):
It's not a hot line, like it'snot like emergency, it's like I
need to talk.
I don't have never set told thisstory to anybody, and so we get
calls every week, and you know,when I had the orthodox group, I
had a warm line and I got thesame exact calls.
So I kind of feel like you know,I was like 15, you know, 13
years ago when we startedAshell, I was like, okay, but

(23:16):
like in 13 years we wouldn't wewon't need this anymore.
But it just keeps happening.
Yeah, you know, and so there's alot of education that we need to
do in the Orthodox community.

SPEAKER_05 (23:24):
Um so wait, but how did you how did you sort of
transfer from the orthodox groupinto Eschel?
Because Eschel is notnecessarily female focused.

SPEAKER_01 (23:33):
Yeah, right.
So I actually had a biggervision for my orthodox group
that it would become a littlebit more like what Eschel is
today, like not just for women,but also for parents.
And um I was invited to a bigconference um at one point, and
that's sort of where Eschelstarted to form.
It was like a lot of differentpeople who were doing organizing

(23:55):
in the Orthodox LGBTQ communitycoming together.
And so Eschel's been a project,you know, that has come out of
uh the efforts of people who hadbeen doing this work undercover.
And then, you know, finally welike got lifted up to be
accepted in the Jewish communityand the Jewish nonprofit world
as just another nonprofit.

(24:16):
But it took so long to berecognized.
And I like I have this articleI'm working on called Eschel's
the Middle Child, like we're themiddle child of the Jewish, you
know, nonprofit world.
It's like you know, when you'reburied inside of a community and
nobody sees you, it's very hardto make your you know, your case
and your voice heard, especiallywhen people are afraid to come

(24:38):
out.
So um, but now I think you know,people have seen.
And um remember, were you at umRabbi Bellino Schull when we did
that Shabbaton?

SPEAKER_04 (24:50):
The dinner, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (24:50):
In 2016?

SPEAKER_04 (24:51):
With the cake that he made the long time ago.

SPEAKER_01 (24:59):
Yeah, it was a long time ago, yeah.
Um what was the 11 years ago,2016.

SPEAKER_04 (25:04):
In 2016, um Eschel did a dinner at the street Sixth
Street Community Synagogue withRabbi Bellino from the podcast,
and my good friend and my rabbi,um, an Orthodox synagogue, and
there was a letter that wentaround all with all the other
Orthodox rabbis in the area thatthey shouldn't do this.
So Rabbi Bellino took the letterand had it printed for a cake.

(25:26):
He made a cake out of it, and asheet cake, and a sheet cake,
and the dumb letter was there,and he and you know, we ate the
cake on a rainbow sheet cake.
On a rainbow sheet cake, yeah.
And that was that's one of myfavorite golf stories.

SPEAKER_03 (25:38):
Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (25:38):
And he was brilliant.
He was like, This you of courseyou're having it in our di in
our shool, have your dinnerhere, have whatever you want
here.
And um, it was very, very, veryI I actually Davened the uh
Kablat Shabbat that night.

SPEAKER_01 (25:51):
Oh, you did?

SPEAKER_04 (25:52):
Yep, I did.

SPEAKER_01 (25:52):
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 (25:53):
It was very, very nice.

SPEAKER_01 (25:54):
Beautiful.

SPEAKER_04 (25:55):
I did the evening service.
I wasn't for you.
No, it was like 11 years ago.
I know, but by then I was like,okay, he doesn't need to be at
everything.
And that was one later.
But and that was one that youdidn't need to be at.
Maybe you were there.
I remember seeing the cake or atleast a picture of it.
So yeah, maybe you were there,yeah.
Yeah, but that was a beautifulbeautiful event.

SPEAKER_01 (26:18):
It's a brilliant move on his part.
Genius.
He just ate it, you know,literally.
Like he just like said, okay,like you said, I don't care.
And he didn't have anything tolose but down there, and he got
a lot more.

SPEAKER_04 (26:30):
The synagogues down there with barely eight people.
And and yeah, barely eightpeople, and but they've come
around too.

SPEAKER_00 (26:37):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (26:37):
They've come around.

SPEAKER_00 (26:38):
On the lower east side, on the lower east side.
Tell me more.

SPEAKER_04 (26:42):
I tell you more.
I live there.

SPEAKER_00 (26:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (26:43):
And I I'm a I'm a pillar of the community.
I'm a I'm a pillar of thecommunity.
The people, the Orthodox peoplelive in my building, they live
in the neighborhood, see us,they know us, they know what
we've done, they know how we'vehelped other neighbors in the in
uh in the neighborhood.
Really, and they they see it,not from us telling them it's
okay to be Orthodox Jewish, fromthem seeing somebody who's

(27:04):
Orthodox Jewish behaving like anOrthodox Jew.
Right.
Uh uh Love thyself, love theneighbor as thyself.
Seeing that coming from us, ushelping people, us, us visiting
their families when we're inAustralia and all of that.
And it it they saw it, theycould they've come around.

SPEAKER_01 (27:25):
They see who you are, yeah, and they accept you,
and they know you're gay, andand not just me, me and Leo.

SPEAKER_04 (27:30):
They know, yeah, 100%.
Oh wow, yeah, you feel it too,the acceptance before you
answer, just think before we wewe left the other day, some
woman stopped you, oh Iabsolutely love you.
Yeah, yeah.
So you feel it, yeah, yes, yeah,you feel it.
It's changed, it's comingaround.

SPEAKER_05 (27:49):
Orthodox, it's just a mind, it's just it's really
sometimes uh screwy for me tolike wrap my head around because
I spent my whole life likerunning from religion, and then
here I am.
Like, I'm basically a Rebitzinat this point, like on tour.
Like I said, on tour.
I have been to every Jewishcommunity in the world, like

(28:09):
I've been so many rabbi studiesacting as the green room, and
I'm just sitting there and I'mlooking at these walls of books
and I read them, and I'm like,how did I end up here?
I I don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 (28:21):
Maybe it's a tikkun.
Which how do you say tikkun?
Like uh a tikkun.
Well, you know, you know.

SPEAKER_05 (28:26):
I know, I know you understand what that is, but
maybe we should explain to ourlisteners.
Tikkun is your thing that you'veyour cosmic challenge, karmic
challenge, you've kind of sortof been assigned in this
lifetime to work out an irony.
Correct, yes, see, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (28:41):
Did I give it over God?
Buddhism, little Judaism.
Yeah, I love that.
It's beautiful.
You did.
You gave it over great.

SPEAKER_05 (28:46):
I grew up um traumatized by the Catholic
Church.

SPEAKER_01 (28:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (28:50):
So that's why it was special for me.
Well, it was just really crazyfor me because I was a part of
the actual event that Modi did,yeah, where we spoke on stage.
Because now it's not just aboutyou know uh being an observant
Jew, it's also like, and he's inan interfaith marriage because
I'm not Jewish.
So everyone seems to forget thator think that I'm like
converting, which for therecord, that's not I'm not, but

(29:12):
um not right now.
There's that there's thatdimension to it too, which
people are like, wait, what?
What's going on?

SPEAKER_01 (29:18):
Yeah.
So um, you know, it's not it'swhat people do with religion.
It's not religion.
Do you know what I mean?
So maybe that's the Tikun, likeyou're being loved and accepted
right now by very religiouspeople when they carry the same
baggage as your, you know, thepeople in your upbringing and
the Catholic.

SPEAKER_04 (29:36):
I'm not so worried about the religious people.
I'm worried about people who arespiritual.
Just because someone does allthe religious things doesn't
make doesn't impress me.

SPEAKER_00 (29:44):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (29:45):
They learn Torah every day and they put on all
the Tfillin and they Shabbistand they know that that does not
impress me.
If you're actually pulling thestrength of what those things
that you're doing out and makingyourself a better person and
then and a better person insociety, yeah, that's it.
If you're putting on your twilland you're putting on your
tefillin with the with thepurpose of this will help me
restrict anger and whatever Ineed to restrict, then that that

(30:08):
I that's that's that's the goal.
Not to put on tefillin every dayand tell somebody you don't put
on teffillin, I put on fillin'every day.
So so that's uh that's um likenot by room.
So religious people don't reallyjust people who are good
spiritual people, yeah, maybethey find their spirituality
through doing religious things,which is which is I do.
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (30:29):
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
That's the goal.

SPEAKER_04 (30:31):
So, how do people become a part of Eschel?
How do people who are listeningto this now and know somebody
who might benefit from Eschel?
How do we bring it back toEschel?

SPEAKER_01 (30:39):
Okay, good, thank you.
So I ex we had an amazing eventlast night.
So I'm like very jazzed.
Wow.
Uh it was a sukkus party on theupper west side, the JCC in
Manhattan.
It was sold out.
We had to move inside because ofthe Nor'easter, but it was still
incredibly wonderful.
And people from all walks oflife, but um new people.

(31:00):
And like I've been doing this along time, and the fact that I
keep seeing new people andreally, really young people
means to me how desperately thisis needed.
And I met this 21-year-old fromthe Vishnets community.

SPEAKER_04 (31:15):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (31:15):
And like he had a really interesting pais.
I'd never seen paus like this.

SPEAKER_04 (31:19):
Vigenitz is a uh is a city in Europe, and in the
Visionsidum, they live in Muncieand Square, in square.
They live in square up upstateNew York.
And uh so this guy was aVishnitz Achassid.

SPEAKER_01 (31:31):
Yeah, and terrified.
And so somebody brought me overto meet him, you know, and um
there was a ro I was like in aroom with 250 people, so it's
like really, really loud.
And he leans in and he whispersinto my ear, you're saving my
life.

SPEAKER_04 (31:46):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (31:48):
And when I hear that, and I do hear it, you
know, very occasionally, uh, youknow, whatever, like every month
or two, I get that.
And I'm like, oh my god, this isso important what we're doing.
And I don't always remember ifsomeone says that to you, what
what what do you go through?

SPEAKER_04 (32:03):
What what what happens to you when someone says
you are saving my life?
Well, how what do you feel?

SPEAKER_01 (32:08):
I I want to cry.
A lot of crying.
Um, I feel incredibly proud ofthe work we've done, incredibly
proud of my team.
You know, we're 10 10 staffpeople and um proud of our
supporters and our funders andpeople who understand the
importance of what we do.
And I realize it's not overbecause you know, I have an

(32:32):
interest in keeping orthodoxy asalive as possible.
I love my orthodoxy, I love whatwe do in the world, I love the
you know, the sparks that webring out, you know, this the
holy sparks that we break outinto the world.
I feel like we have a realpurpose here.
So like I have an interest inorthodoxy surviving.

(32:53):
And as long as there'sorthodoxy, there's gonna be gay
Orthodox Jews.

SPEAKER_03 (32:57):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (32:58):
So we're always gonna be doing this, is what I
also feel.
I'm like, okay, we can't quit.

SPEAKER_05 (33:04):
Yeah, I don't think there's ever gonna be some like
event horizon where this is everjust everything just stops and
is not needed.

SPEAKER_01 (33:10):
Especially not in the Hasidic.
So it's interesting that you'resaying this.

SPEAKER_04 (33:13):
So, you know, so we our synagogue, Sixth Street
synagogue, Sixth StreetCommunity Synagogue on Sixth
between first and second in thelower in the lower east, in the
in the east village.
You know, it's an Orthodoxsynagogue.
Yeah, men and women sit ondifferent sides of the
synagogue.
There's not like some crazywall, there's like uh a little
design thing on the chairs, butyou can see across and there's

(33:34):
also light.
Machitza light, yeah.
Nice and um, and the the serviceis orthodox.
Yeah, and the rabbi is a man,yeah, and the men getting the
aliyas are and it's an orthodoxservice.
And people that come to us thatare gay are like, thank God,
this is what I like.
I enjoy this.
Yeah, the women, like I this iswhat a synagogue to me is,
right?
They don't want which is great,a reform or conservative, that's

(33:57):
your jam where everything isexplained in English, yeah, and
a sermon, and they read poems inthe middle, which is great, and
if that works for you, and thatbrings you to synagogue and
that's your community, amazing.
Yeah, but people who loveorthodoxy, the songs, the motif
of the prayer, the the um thethe way the prayers go and and

(34:18):
and the the the the learning ofthe Torah from from within that
and the sermons, yes, and you'reand if you're gay and you still
want that.
Yeah, you still want that.

SPEAKER_01 (34:28):
There's nothing in you that says once you come out
that you shouldn't want it.

SPEAKER_04 (34:31):
Right.
And so it's what you're used to.
So that synagogue provides that.
Yeah, there are people there whoare straight, gay, there's trans
people there, and it's anorthodox shoul.
And and it's and it's anamazing, and people from the
podcast have been coming andsending their friends, and
please uh go to their the thethe website and go to um to

(34:52):
their page on Instagram and stopby.

SPEAKER_05 (34:55):
So, what would you say like the silos of support
that provides are, especiallybecause you said the parents are
such an important part of theequation?

SPEAKER_01 (35:02):
Okay, good.
So I you know I was talkingabout this party last night
because we have a lot of eventsnow in New York.
We um have a full-time persondoing events, so it's like
meeting people is the mostimportant thing to break
isolation and for your mentalhealth.
Like that young man said that tome because he was surrounded by
men who were like he finally gotto talk to, you know, and be who

(35:23):
he was.
So I would say come to ourevents if you're near you know
where we are.
We have a few chapters acrossthe country, but we actually
have a very robust program inNew York.
Um, we have this incredibleretreat every year, and it's
exactly what you just described,except one thing, and that is

(35:43):
that being LGBTQ is completelylike fine, right?
It's celebrated.
It's you know, it's a happyplace to have all of your
orthodoxy and who you can beexactly who you are in one
place.
You know, people say like thisis the only Shabbos of the year
I can live fully in my truth.
So like I would encouragesomebody as a gateway, if you're

(36:04):
up for it, well, if you needlike one-on-one support, we have
a lot of people who we connectpeople with, like as mentors,
and we you know, call our wormline and um visit our website,
obviously, and and if you'reready for like actual in-person
contact, there's a lot of eventsgoing on.
We also have like three to foursupport groups every week for

(36:26):
different, you know, differentsegments of our population,
mostly all on Zoom.
Um, and then after so the storyof the parents is that after
about um three years of doingAsh L just for LGBTQ people,
some parents heard that theirson came to the uh national
retreat.
And I think he came onscholarship and he didn't need a

(36:49):
scholarship.
Like in other words, his parentswould have sent him had they
known.
And when he told them, they wereso sad that he felt he couldn't
just tell them that he wascoming, you know, and they would
have helped him get there.
So after they came, he came backand told them about it and you
know, really shared what theexperience was like, the parents

(37:09):
called us and said, Well, can wecome to the next one?
And we're like, No, no, no, thisis for gay people.
And they said, Well, we need tocome out.
You know, we're like orthodoxparents, not a single person in
our life knows.
And we need a place where we canjust be ourselves.
And actually, if somebody askedme a question after Daviding and
over kiddish, you know, how's myson David?

(37:32):
Like, I can actually tell themhow he is and who he's dating
and what he's doing.
So this this this coupleactually helped us the folds,
right?
You um at we honor them at theat the event that you were at,
and um so they helped us startthe parent retreat.
And um, we've been doing thisfor about 11 years, 12 years.

SPEAKER_05 (37:53):
Do you take Catholics?
I'll send my parents onscholarship.

SPEAKER_01 (37:55):
Um, you know, the truth is the first year we
actually brought in a woman whoworked with the Mormon community
and she had a film aboutMormons, and it was really good.
It was because nothing right nowexists really about Orthodox
parents, and but uh we like tolook at other cultures and see
like how similar we are.
You know, we're very similar.
And I I'm I'd be happy to talkto your parents.

(38:18):
Like I'm really serious aboutthis.
No, like I have so much to sayto parents because I suffered so
much.
I suffered with my siblings, youknow, it took us years to
repair.
Like Haval al-Hasman, they sayin Hebrew, like, don't waste my
time, life is short, you know?

SPEAKER_05 (38:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (38:36):
So I'm sorry to hear that they're having a hard time.

SPEAKER_05 (38:39):
No, it makes me happy that there's like this,
you know, to counterbalance itin you know, in the world that
exists for people.

SPEAKER_01 (38:46):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's it's really all thesame.
But yeah, like, you know,they're high.

SPEAKER_05 (38:50):
I tell Modi, I grew up from just not Jewish.

SPEAKER_01 (38:52):
Exactly.

unknown (38:53):
Exactly.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (38:55):
So again, so this Eschel is is an amazing place
for anybody who's Orthodox, orif you know somebody who's
Orthodox and going throughthrough it.
Yeah.
But it's also just be a proudJew and be you.
Exactly.
You want to keep you wanna lightcandles, light candles, you want
to learn Torah, learn Torah.
You f I I think one of the mostmost important things, and this

(39:16):
is I I I'm just blessed that Ilanded in this synagogue.
But if you're in a synagoguethat doesn't accept you, you're
in the wrong synagogue.
If you're in the synagogue thatdoes not accept you, you are in
the wrong synagogue.
And find someplace else.

SPEAKER_00 (39:32):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (39:32):
Find and I understand I live in New York
where there's a there's a 30,000synagogues here.

SPEAKER_01 (39:37):
Yeah, you have your pick.

SPEAKER_04 (39:38):
But find, you know, I'm sure Eschel has some kind of
a Zoom programs or stuff, or orI I mean, I I don't know, but I
just not go to someplace thatdoesn't accept you.

SPEAKER_01 (39:48):
Right.
So I never I never tell someoneto do that if it's not gonna
feel good for them or if it'sgonna really damage their psyche
or mental health.
Like I I never say, go back tothe show you grew up in, you
know.

SPEAKER_03 (39:58):
No.

SPEAKER_01 (39:59):
But I'll say we have this project called the
Welcoming Shules Project, umwhere we've interviewed 300 or
orthodox rabbis across theUnited States to see like where
they are on you know, like ascale of acceptance.
And if an LGBTQ person camethrough their door, what would
their experience be like?

SPEAKER_04 (40:19):
What were the findings?

SPEAKER_01 (40:20):
And so the findings are that in their heart we've
only really received compassion.
But like where the rubber hitsthe road, some will say, I
really can't handle this, Ireally don't know how to deal
with this.
You know, um we ask a series ofquestions like if a gay man came
in, would you give him analiyah?

(40:40):
Would you let him lead Zavening?
You know, all the things.
Um if a couple had children,would you give them a bat
mitzvah?

SPEAKER_04 (40:47):
And what they say.

SPEAKER_01 (40:49):
No, so they're all over the place.

SPEAKER_04 (40:50):
Literally to the top, though.

SPEAKER_01 (40:52):
Yeah, there are so absolutely.
So those are the ones that havecome out and they are on our
website.

SPEAKER_04 (40:57):
That's a good thing.
That's amazing.
That's crazy.
I will tell you, I I performedin Chabad houses than they could
afford me.

SPEAKER_01 (41:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (41:06):
So many years.

SPEAKER_01 (41:07):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (41:07):
And you walk into a Chabad house anywhere in the
world, and they began in thelittle, the little in the
basement of some house, and nowthey are a massive center with a
day camp and an old age home anda big synagogue, and you walk in
there, and the rabbi and the therabbi's wife, the Robertson, uh
uh, they tell you, and you know,for the show tonight, we have

(41:29):
people who are Israeli, peoplewho are Latino, we have we have
a few gay, gay, gay coupleshere, and and we love them, and
their kids are doing great inthe day school.
And it's like, and they they andwe we we and their kids are in
the day school, and they they'reuh one of the some of the best
students we have in the in theday school.
And then like you really see bea hatalerecha kamocha, love thy

(41:49):
neighbor as thyself, you know,because when they send their
kids to a yeshiva, they wantsomeone to treat their kids the
same way they're treating thekids of this gay couple.
Oh, beautiful is an Orthodox,you know, yeah, it's a Chabad,
black hat, the whole nine yeah,so yeah, so I don't think all
Chabad houses are that uhwelcoming, but the the the ones

(42:09):
I was at are very, verywelcoming.

SPEAKER_01 (42:11):
Yeah.
No, good.
So for the most part, we havefound that Chabad rabbis always
say every Jew is welcome, andthey really, really mean it.
Yeah.
Um, my brother's Chabad and hehas eight kids and they all do
do schlichas, you know, they alldo their thing.

SPEAKER_04 (42:26):
And and in the beginning, like when I Wait,
just don't just swoop over that.
Okay, sure.
One of your brothers is Chabad?

SPEAKER_01 (42:34):
Yeah, and he's got like a lot of kids, a lot of
grandkids.

SPEAKER_04 (42:38):
So but he grew up not chabad.
He grew up not chabad.

SPEAKER_01 (42:42):
Um, he did not grow up chabad, but my father was
very close to the like theRebbe's world.
Yeah.
He did like treated a lot ofthose people.

SPEAKER_03 (42:49):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (42:50):
And so, and there's Chabad, there's some Lubavich in
our lineage.
So I don't know how my brothergot into Chabad, honestly, but
now his sons like own half ofCrown Heights, which is fun for
me.
Like the butcher store, thebakery, the schools.
Like, I don't know how they didit, but what's the name?
Kabakov.
Kabakov.
Yeah.
There's like a car rental.
I'll get you a free car.

SPEAKER_04 (43:13):
That's amazing.
I'm I'm I'm a full sh I am afull Sliakh of the Labajarab.

SPEAKER_00 (43:17):
You are oh my god.

SPEAKER_04 (43:19):
Every time I get on stage, every time I get on
stage, I feel I that's my chabathouse.

SPEAKER_00 (43:23):
Wow.

SPEAKER_04 (43:24):
That wherever I am, that's my chabat house for the
next hour and 10 minutes.
Yeah.
Make them laugh, make them feelgood, make them feel proud to be
Jewish.
Yeah.
The people who are not Jewishthere will connect to the Jewish
people.
110% I feel that I am a Slik ofthe La Baba Charebi.

SPEAKER_00 (43:41):
Wow.

SPEAKER_04 (43:41):
100%.
Not not not even like a speck ofdust of doubt in that.

SPEAKER_01 (43:46):
Yeah.
When did you tell you that?

SPEAKER_04 (43:47):
When he detailed, he told me that when I was in
college.
He gave me a doll and saysBrahabatzlacha.

SPEAKER_01 (43:52):
Oh, you actually I thought you were like communing
with him.

SPEAKER_04 (43:55):
No, many times.
I I do communicate with him.
Yeah.
I go to his grave and pray.
And I do communicate with him.

SPEAKER_01 (44:01):
What did he say to you?

SPEAKER_04 (44:01):
He said brachabatslache.
He told me help somebody, andthat's when you'll get the
blessings back in your life.
That's 100%.
100%.

SPEAKER_01 (44:11):
Wow.

SPEAKER_04 (44:11):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (44:12):
Yeah.
Um, yeah.
So the Chabad folks are supergood.
So when so when I started tocome out to my nieces and
nephews, I checked in with mybrother, Shlomo, and I was like,
is it okay to come out to them?
And he's like, No, no, no.
You need to go live with themfor a while because they're
gonna go out in the world andthey're gonna meet all sorts of
people.
Yeah.
So actually, they need to likeknow how to talk to you and need

(44:34):
to understand who you are.
And they're totally loving.
I mean, I'm in love with mynieces.
I have like 35 of them.
They're like, every single oneis special.
Um, yeah.
So so the Chabad rabbis arealways loving.
When the rubber hits the road,honestly, though, like where can
someone feel fully like theybelong?
Like they belong the same waythey belonged the day before

(44:55):
they came out.
Do you know what I'm saying?
Like they were part of thefabric of the synagogue.
Then they come out and all of asudden they can't do X, they
can't do Y, they can't do Z.
Um, or they can't sit where theywant, you know, where what their
gender is.
So uh that's sort of where westart working.
That's where the work begins.
Because you, you know, you'relike, great, you know, don't go
to a shoal that doesn't reallyaccept you.

(45:17):
A lot of people don't have thatchoice.

SPEAKER_04 (45:19):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (45:19):
It's either that show.

SPEAKER_04 (45:20):
But now your your website, your your website now
helps you find the place.

SPEAKER_01 (45:24):
So now we have like, I think about 40 shoals listed,
but it's like, you know, across,you know, mostly East Coast, but
also, you know, across thecountry.
And we're working on havingrabbis come out as true allies.
And every single day, like ournew kind of we did a strategic
plan, our new thing is likeallyship.
Because every modern OrthodoxJew knows a gay person or they

(45:46):
know somebody who has a gay kid.
Like, how could it not be,right?
So, like the allies are reallywhere we're trying to like get
energy from and support from.
Um, because it's like you haveto be compassionate to your
friend and your friend's kids,you know, like you're part of
their life and all of a suddenyou're gonna reject them.

SPEAKER_04 (46:07):
Exactly.
Love thy neighbor as thyself,compassion to them, the same
compassion you would want for toback back at you.

SPEAKER_01 (46:14):
Exactly.
Exactly.
And just like you did yesterday.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 (46:17):
And on that note, we should thank our sponsors.

SPEAKER_01 (46:19):
Okay.

SPEAKER_04 (46:21):
Speaking of compassion.

SPEAKER_01 (46:22):
Let's hear it.

SPEAKER_04 (46:23):
Speaking of compassion, we have um AH
provisions.
The most deli you know them?
Like herring AH?
No, AH, like hot dogs.

SPEAKER_01 (46:34):
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (46:36):
Delicious hot dogs.
Beautiful kosher koshadogs.netis their website, and 30% off
your first order with promo codeModi.
Seth has been an ally of this, atrue ally of the podcast.
We love him, and we're so happythat he's a part of this.
And also, Whites and Luxembourg,the law firm that not only does
well, they do good, superphilanthropic.

(46:59):
Also, an ally.
Arthur Luxemburg is like mybrother and Randy, his wife,
listens to the podcast to tellhim what we talk about.
And um, and they are uh amazingallies.

SPEAKER_05 (47:09):
And um and where can people find you if they want to
be an ally?
Yeah.
What's the best way to reachyou?

SPEAKER_01 (47:14):
So our website, eschelonline.org.
Spell me, spell it out.org orinfo at eshlonline.org.

SPEAKER_05 (47:26):
I'll l I'll link all of these in the description of
the bio.

SPEAKER_01 (47:29):
Okay, great.
Thank you.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 (47:31):
Was this the Eschel O-N-L-I-N-E?

SPEAKER_01 (47:34):
Yes.

SPEAKER_04 (47:36):
Okay.

SPEAKER_01 (47:37):
Uh, because there's so many Eschels out there.
Yeah.
A lot of Eshels in CrownHeights.

SPEAKER_03 (47:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (47:41):
There's a hotel, there's now a restaurant.
We get we were getting callslike people were trying to
reserve like rooms.
Oh, that's right.
And after like the fifth one, Iwould like take the reservation.
We got a few credit card.
Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_04 (47:54):
Okay.
So Leo, Leo will we link upeverything to for for for you to
to help people and reach and letthem reach you.
And if and not just you, if youknow somebody who might my guy
was was really, here's a websiteyou might want to visit.
And he goes, I'm not gay.
I'm just a feminist.
It's for your friends.
For your friends.

SPEAKER_00 (48:14):
Give it to your friends.

SPEAKER_04 (48:14):
Friend of Dorothy.

SPEAKER_00 (48:16):
Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 (48:17):
Where are you going to be, Modi?
Oh my goodie, goody, goodygoodness, goodness graciousness.
Uh, I'm on ModiLive.com, M O D IL I V E dot com.
We have shows coming up in ohwow.
San Francisco, Seattle,Vancouver.
We have shows in Miami.
This is gonna be the last playin Miami for a while until we

(48:37):
are at the Hard Rock Cafe.
So, this you want to get thosetickets at the at the improv um
in Miami and then Syracuse.
At the improv in Syracuse, we'regonna be there working out the
new hour for the taping of it inAtlanta on December 10th and
11th.
We have shows in Europe.
We are gonna be in Vienna,Paris, um, Amsterdam, and

(49:00):
Berlin.
These are amazing, amazing showswith amazing, amazing audiences.
We're going back, these arerevisited markets and with a new
show.
And um, everything's availableon mortilive.com and be the
friend that brings the friendsto the comedy show.
Don't just get tickets foryourself, get tickets for your
friends and make it an event,make it a fun thing.

(49:22):
Um, and that really createsmashir energy, and that is also
uh we have merch that saysmashik energy.
I think this year we are in anew year, and mashir has to be
in the conversation.
When you say hello and saygoodbye, say mashik energy.
Bye, mashik.
Just so the word mashik is outthere just so because you know

(49:42):
how many times you're like, Iwas just talking about him.
Just mesh just should be in theconversation.
That's that's my real goal forthis upcoming year.

SPEAKER_01 (49:49):
Amen, amen.

SPEAKER_04 (49:50):
That's it.
Thank you so well, yes.

SPEAKER_01 (49:52):
I know I want I thought we were gonna have a
forbrengen, honestly.
There's so much to celebratetoday in the world.

SPEAKER_04 (49:59):
There is.
There is.
We are we are um uh as we we wementioned, we are here now uh
calm and collected, but ourphones are blowing up with the
hostages coming out, and it'sjust Meshir energy.
Yeah, and uh and speaking offorbringen, which is just
getting together and laugh, youknow, did you ever think of
changing the name of yoursupport groups to just

(50:21):
forbrengen?
For bringen, just it's thesupport group, so it's like we
just taken, you know, there'sthis other thing.

SPEAKER_01 (50:27):
So I don't know.
So that's what that should be.
I love that.
Absolutely, Tish.

SPEAKER_04 (50:31):
Tish.

SPEAKER_01 (50:32):
There's always a Tish at our retreat, so a table.

SPEAKER_04 (50:34):
Oh, look at Tish, you know, a little table with
something to eat.
What T.
LGBT?
LGBT.

SPEAKER_01 (50:41):
That was great.

SPEAKER_04 (50:42):
LGBT make the merch, run the t-shirts.
That's it.
Thank you all very much forlistening.
We we love you and appreciateit.
Hope to see you the at a liveshow uh real, real soon.
Bye.
Bye.

SPEAKER_01 (50:53):
Bye.