August 11, 2025 • 46 mins
In this follow-up episode of And Now Love, Cynthia Marks continues her conversation with social and criminal justice advocate Niaz Kasravi. Niaz reflects on her path from silence to self-expression — shaped not only by personal trauma, but also by a deepening commitment to justice and community healing. She speaks candidly about the criminal legal system, her work supporting incarcerated individuals, and how trauma has shaped the way we relate to ourselves, to institutions, and to each other. Through a lens that is both compassionate and unflinching, Niaz explores how self-awareness, nervous system literacy, and emotional integrity have guided her advocacy — and her life. This is a conversation about finding your voice, standing up for what matters, and holding space for the truth.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Hi, my name
is Cynthia Marks,and I head up the Holistic Psychoanalysis
Foundation, established by my latehusband, Doctor Bernard Bail.
Welcome to And Now Love.
DoctorKasravi is a national expert and advocate
on criminal justice, social justiceand racial justice.
(00:26):
With more than 17 years of experienceleading projects across the country.
She is the founder and directorof the Avalan Institute
for Applied Research, a research,
advocacy and training institute.
She is also the former directorof the Criminal Justice
Program for the NAACP,
(00:49):
and she holds a PhD
in Criminology, Law and Society
from the University of Californiaat Irvine.
Doctor Niaz Kasravi was born in Iranand migrated to the U.S.
with her family in 1984.
During our first episode together,
(01:10):
we talked about what justice meansin the world of advocacy.
Niaz also shared with us some of the waysthat she passionately works to help
others have their voices heardand be supported in their communities.
Today, we want to dive in and discusssome of the topics
that Niaz and others like herare currently addressing.
(01:34):
Hello, Niaz. Hi, Cynthia.
Thank you for being here again.
Yeah, good to see you again.
You're going to be our socialadvocacy expert.
I'm honored.
Niaz is also
on the verge of beginning her own podcast,which is going to be fabulous, I'm sure.
So, like I said, let's dive inand you mentioned this to me
(01:56):
the other day about feeling normal.
So if you wake up every morning
feeling normal,given the circumstances in our world,
our big picture world, our smaller
communities, our nation,
what does that mean?
If you think you're feeling normal.
(02:17):
How can somebody feel normal today?
I don't know.
It's very difficult.
I wake up every single day.
I literally have a debate in my own head
about,am I going to look at the news right away?
Am I going to wait?
Take a breather, do my stuff,morning stuff, and then dive into it?
(02:38):
Because I know as soon as I jumpon that media or social media platform,
I'm going to be bombarded with images
that are completely heartwrenching, of people being whisked away
by masked agents in unmarked trucks,
people being starved to death,halfway across the world.
(03:00):
And there is so much that is comingat us on a regular basis that
I struggle
to to decide,when do I want to expose myself to that?
And I think our brains weren't reallydesigned to be bombarded with such graphic
and heartwrenching images and informationon a regular and consistent basis.
(03:22):
And you can't really,
because you have that same feeling.
You sort of can't deny someonewanting to push that away because it is
like you say, it's just heart wrenching onso many different levels.
It's heart wrenching, and I get that.
Peoplemay sometimes want to protect themselves
and their familiesfrom being exposed to that level of trauma
(03:46):
on a regular basis,and that's a real kind of concern.
But there are boundaries to I think, thatwe have to be cognizant of around
protecting our sanity versusliving in ignorance and in la la land.
Basically, I agreeand I think that in a way,
if you are protecting yourselfand even your family
(04:09):
and trying to create thispretty little bubble,
you're not dealing with realityand you're creating in your own body
a different sort of trauma,the human experience.
I think, requires us to be
part of humanity.
We have to find a way to do
(04:30):
something to supportwhat we believe is the truth.
And we all have suchdifferent circumstances,
and some of us are really struggling,
really struggling just to put foodon the table, just to get the job done.
And, you know,you think, who has time to devote to this?
But in some little waywe've got to do something.
And I think the less we door if we are enabled to do anything
(04:54):
because we can't get ourselves out of
just this little protective bubble,we're burdening ourselves.
I think a couple of things come to mind.
Number one, injustice
isn't always done through action.
By not doing anything you can also promotethe injustice that is around you
(05:19):
that you can and should have a handin stopping and rolling back.
Right.
And I think we each have to figure outwhat those boundaries
are for us in termsof protecting our own sanity.
But I don't think pulling backand being in complete
ignorance is the answer or a valid optionright now for us.
(05:40):
And all of this stuffis very frustrating and sad,
and it makes you angry and depressedat some at some points, right?
But I think the antidoteto all of that is action.
And that can look different for everybody.
Not everybody has to do the same things.
Different things may be of concernto you, them than than to me.
(06:01):
Right.
So we got to choose
what are the thingsthat we really care about,
and how is itthat we want to address those things.
Right.
So by action I don't mean just like
one thing likeget out on the street and protest, right?
It could be anything.
It could be talking to your neighbor,seeing what they need.
If you see that they
are being impacted in these times,it could be talking to your kids
(06:23):
and making sure they know what's going onso they can be aware
just in the community.
Those are huge things.
Yeah.
So so action iscan be defined very differently.
But I think that is the antidote to howwe're probably all of us are feeling. Yes.
And I think to the positive side of this,for example,
(06:43):
we've had quite the focus on immigrationissues here in Los Angeles.
And it's been lovelyto see so much of Los Angeles
coming together to support the peoplewho are struggling with this issue.
And I hear people saying,I don't know what to do, what can I do?
What can I do?
And and it's almost coming upwith an instinctual response of, well,
(07:08):
I can't keep theseall of these people out of jail.
I can't keep them from this strifeor whatever
it may be, but maybe I can make surethey have dinner on the table tonight.
Maybe I can babysit their kidsfor the day.
And those things are huge.
There's things you need to doif you are amongst
(07:28):
the communities that are impacted,and there are things that you need to do
and can do if you're on the outsideand have the privilege of not yet
being impacted, right.
Because all of this is a slippery slope,it. Sure is right.
And we can see that right now.
We can see thatand we can get into that in a little bit.
But as someone who's not being impacted,there are so many things you can.
First of all, be aware
(07:50):
and educate yourselfabout what's happening in your community,
like what's happening to my neighbors,even those who may not look like me
or have the same cultureor religion or nationality.
What is going on around me?
Second of all,you can disrupt this authoritarian
sort of narrative that's coming at usfrom all sides about demonizing
(08:12):
certain communities, and particularlyimmigrant communities in this country.
You can disrupt that narrative.
You can document abuses that you see,especially if you're privileged.
Right.
It's been actually heartwarmingto see a lot of people from like,
white allieswho witness a kidnaping of an immigrant by
and they take out their phoneand they record what's happening,
(08:34):
and they approach themand they ask for their badge number
and their nameand whether they have a warrant.
Often they don't get anywherebut the act of disruption and standing up.
It means something on its own.
It's right.But it's also a slippery slope.
I mean, America has had many wavesof anti-immigrant like sentimentality
throughout its history,but the most recent, let's say
(08:56):
we look at this administration,it started in the first round, right?
But it wasn't this severe.
When we got to the electionthe second time, we started hearing
all of this rhetoric about immigrantscommitting more crime, which is not true.
Right.
And these basically liesthat serve to anger
and demonize anger peopleand demonize the other.
(09:19):
Right.
And then it started by we're only goingto go after the violent criminals.
Right?
And then that's not the case,because we know
a majority of people who've been swept,swept up in these, you know, raids.
Have are not they're not that.
And the violent criminals are going to be
generally pretty hard to findbecause they're most aren't.
(09:39):
Right.
And then it became about,you know, they're eating cats and dogs.
Right. The craziest thing you ever heard.
And that became everyone'safraid for their pets now.
Right.
And then it became about,well, maybe we can de naturalize
some people based onnot just criminal offenses,
(10:01):
but maybe even civil offenses,which is what they're talking about.
Right?
Then you get all of thislike dialog about control,
people's freedom of expressionand free speech, and people being
harassed at the border because someonelooks through their social media,
or maybe they're a podcast hostthat said something that the powers
(10:21):
that be don't like.
So where does the line stop?
And I think if you just thinkthat this is never going to affect me,
I think that's a really shortsighted wayof looking at how authoritarianism
and really the road to fascism,which we're on right now, works.
Yeah.
Well, and I think keeping that in mind,this slippery slope, it's
(10:45):
not me being affected right now,
but if I'm just watching how quicklythis is falling apart,
I'm down the lineand I better do something now
to make a pointand help the people that are
unfortunately being affected now
so that other people down the line
will possibly not be affected in this.
(11:07):
It's I think we have to supportat the very beginning,
and it's really hard because it's so hardto buy into what's happening.
You can't.Who could have imagined it? Yeah.
And it does something to you.
Watching injustice is traumatic,as you said.
I remember when we used to work on
prison issues and the death penalty,and there were a lot of conversations
(11:31):
about the impacts of being a partof this brutal system on the guards
and on the people who actually hadto operate the death chamber.
The watch chain.
Injustice and violence and brutality,I think, really messes you up as well.
So, you know, not only is itthe right thing to do to be involved,
(11:52):
but there's all these other reasonsthat should prompt people to say
this is not okay,and I got to do something. Yes.
Even just watching the Marinesand the National Guard here in Los Angeles
and thinking about their families and.
There's got to
be immigration inand amongst most of those people.
(12:15):
I mean, who here in the United Statesisn't in some way coming from someplace
else, just aboutI mean, there are Native Americans,
of course,but the rest of us came from somewhere.
And I have often thought, what do these
poor people who have to stand
hard against this really feel inside?
(12:36):
Some of them?
Not all of them,but some of them, like what a battle.
It's tough.
I think it's very tough.
Like you said, we're all immigrants.
What? America's with 250 years old.
So unless you're a Native Americanindigenous person on this land,
we're all either immigrants ourselves.
The children are the grandchildrenof immigrants.
(12:58):
Right.
And so that has been twisted.
Very much so by
throughout the history of the US,but especially by
this kind of new wave of anti-immigrationand anti-immigrant narrative.
Right.
But it's also, for me, it'sbeen so heartbreaking
and wild to see these videos of blackand brown people
(13:20):
masked up in unmarked cars doing thisto other black and brown people.
I don't know what that does to youpsyche psychologically.
Right there, but it's got to be terrible.
All you're looking at someone whowho could be your sister.
I try to understand it.
I am sure a big factor of itall is financial.
(13:43):
This is a job,but I'm sure people who followed
Hitler'sorders were only doing their job as well.
So at what point do you likedraw the line and say,
I don't want to do this jobbecause it's immoral?
And I think that's a question
that everybody who's inthat position has to ask themselves.
(14:04):
And we don't live in an easy societyor a world.
We live in a hyper capitalistic nation
that values monetary successalmost above all else.
Yes, it. Right.
And so it's not an unveil.
You got to survive.
You got to put food on the tablefor your family.
(14:25):
You got to save up for your old age,all the things that every human being
is concerned about.
But at what costand what are the other options?
Right. That is not the only optionfor our profession.
It's easier said than done, I understand.
Yeah.
And as a as a marine,
you didn't walk into that careerthinking that you would be standing
(14:46):
in front of this group of peopleand be responsible for
sending them out of the countrythat they came to for safety.
Yeah, I think a lot of people enterthese professions without thinking
about some of the difficult positions.
They may be put in based on
what is happeningdomestically and even internationally.
(15:07):
You think about the men and womenwho were sent abroad and were,
for example,participated in that and the torture,
that was happening in Iraq prisons.
And, you know, these are these are not
things that they probably thoughtthey would be asked to do.
But I think you have to consider thatwhen you choose your profession
(15:27):
and things you want to do in life,you have to kind of think
much more down the linethat that than at first it might seem.
Yes, I think that's really smart.
And I think kind of goes along withjust wanting to have this feeling
of normalcy, you know, just I justam going to deal with this little package.
(15:47):
And you know whatI've been thinking about this.
We just don't have the luxuryto feel normal.
We got to try and remaincentered and balanced and
it's going to spill over once in a while.
And it's fine.
You're going to get emotional,you're going to get angry.
But we can't sit hereand pretend that this is normal
and let me just live a normal life.
(16:08):
Unfortunately,that is not the era we're living in.
We got to deal withwhat the context that we're in.
And so yes, it's an effort to try to feel
some sort of normal every day,and you got to try to stay balanced.
But I think ignoring it is only going
to make it worse for everybody,including ourselves.
(16:30):
Exactly.
Yeah.
I mean, we are all human,which means we are part of humanity.
And humanity is what we have to support.
We can't just be protecting our ownlittle human selves
because we're going to fall apartas humanity.
So to talk a little bit about immigration,
what are some of the ways that we can help
(16:53):
those that are in fear?
Well we talkedabout that a little bit in the beginning.
I think that first of all it'sreally important
and I know this sounds you knowno one wants to do more research.
No one wants to like listen to the newsand then have to go fact check it.
(17:14):
You know.
But we have to really do a little diggingbefore we buy everything
that is thrown at us by the mediaor by social media, I mean, a lot
of social media platforms literally firedtheir fact checkers, right?
And I think to a great extent,
journalism in this countryand that media apparatus
(17:38):
as a whole,there's still some very integral,
you know, people and shows and platforms,but as a whole has lost
a level of integritybecause it's become about
profit versus truth telling.
And in order to get profit,you have to have more viewers.
And in order to have more viewers,you have to be sensational.
(18:00):
And so you got to make people feel thingsreally quickly,
you know, either angry or sador happy or frustrated.
Something that keeps people coming back.
And in order to do that,they have to kind of
give up the contextand the complexity of the issues
that the, you know, they are talking aboutand they're exposing people to.
(18:20):
So in a lot of ways,
all of us, whether we're impactedby this recent kind of development around
immigration enforcement or not, we have towe have to educate ourselves.
We have to not take everything we see onmedia, our social media, at face value.
They're still trusted sources that we canrely on that for the most part.
You know, they might have their leanings,
(18:41):
but they're not going to knowinglypromote lies.
And but we all have different ideasabout what the truth really is.
Yeah.
And but if somebody is promoting an idea,for example, immigrants are responsible
for, majority of crimes
and violent crimes in America,and those numbers are going up.
None of that is true accordingto the government's own statistics.
(19:03):
Right.
And so all it takes is for meas an individual to be like,
I wonder if this is true and kind of goand look up that study and just not take.
And so it's a little annoying thatwe have to do a little bit more legwork.
But I think number one is to really be
aware of what's actual and what's not,
(19:23):
and what's being bent out of shapeand presented as the truth.
And if you're impacted by sort ofwhat is happening currently,
it's really important to know your rights,
carry your papers or copies, have itmemorized.
And number two, a loved oneand an attorney, you know, all that stuff.
But also it's importantto decipher fact from fiction as well,
(19:44):
because I think part
of characteristic of the times we'reliving in and out of the road to fascism.
I will say this because I really believethat's what we're on,
is to have people live in fear.
And so we're constantlyliving in fear of like, well,
if I post this and if I traveland maybe I shouldn't do this.
And so we should actually bea little bit more aware
(20:07):
about what's propagandaand what they're actually doing.
So how many people have they actually denaturalized.
They have.
But for what and how long did it take.
Right.
And so there is a balance to kind ofhaving some sort of agency around
how you feeland not living in fear every day,
but being cognizantof protecting yourself.
(20:29):
So to find these sourcesis totally easy for you
because you know where to goand who's providing the truth
if, well, this they're telling me
that everybody is a violent criminaland that is hard for me to believe.
Where do I go for the research?
I have trusted criminal justiceorganizations that I go to
on their website.
(20:50):
But even then, like,you can pull up their reports and look at
like where are theygetting their crime data, for example.
And then you can clickand it'll take you to the FBI
kind of website that tells you the actualcrime rates, you know, news outlets.
I think the big ones for me,I always go to NPR.
(21:11):
I'm definitely progressive.
So I go to Democracy Now!
I go to Los AngelesTimes, Washington Post, New York Times,
you know, all your big outlets.
And then I do a little bit more diggingafter that.
I'm wary of news outlets, for example,like Fox News
that have in courtadmitted that they're not really news.
And they, you know,they have promoted lies,
(21:31):
for example, about the electionhaving been stolen and things like that.
So you got to be wary of news outlets
that actually have admittedthat we're not really always news.
I think we just don't live in a worldwhere we can
take anything we see on,
the internet
as complete fact without doingat least one more step of checking.
(21:53):
We spoke about this earlier,before we had cameras in front of us
about how the division amongst usis just growing and growing,
and it's almost as ifin the world of truth,
even perhaps you pick a side
and you uphold your side so much
(22:14):
that you almost lose sight of
what it is you're supporting.
You're justyou just know you can't back down.
How do we come back to the middle?
I mean, part of what made America sogreat was it was a meeting of the minds.
It was listening to each other.
It was learning from each other,was not disrespecting one another.
(22:37):
Because we.
You have a different idea than I do.
I am so concerned about this dividethat we have.
It's really sad,
quite depressing.
And I wish I had the answer toI mean, there are some,
some there are, of course,some factors that to me are obvious.
(23:00):
Right?
I think that the age of the internet
and technology has really allowed
us to be divided
based on things we followand what the algorithms throw at us.
So I do think that a lot of
what we need to do is sometimesjust put the technology aside.
(23:22):
And have conversations like this.
You and I have talked about how sometimeswhen I post online,
I'm very bold and I'm very potent.
Yes, I love it. Thank you.
Sometimes I sit there and I say,why am I even saying this?
Right?
Sometimes I'll, like, censor myselfand be like, I've said this five times.
No one's listening.
No one's changing their minds.
(23:42):
Not true. And keep it. Up.
Thank you.
But I think it's easier.
It can be good in some ways, right?
It's easier to be very boldand say exactly what you think.
Sitting in your homeor in your office behind a computer desk.
And you don't have to look the personyou're saying this to at the AI, right?
(24:02):
They're not fronting. You face to face.
And sometimes that can lead youto do things
to be more upsetting to them or be likesomewhat even offensive to them.
You sort of embolden.
Insult, insult them, right?
You're an idiot if you believe this.
For example, we might type but Iif I'm sitting with you
(24:23):
and talking to you,I can disagree with you,
but I'm not going to sit here and look at,well, I'm not.
Some people might
look you in
the eye andsay, you're an idiot for believing this.
I'll be like, this makes no sense to me.
Why do you believe this?
And I think that personal interactionhas been really reduced
(24:44):
to very minimal settings.
That's so true.
And our major form of communicationnow is limited.
It's in bytes, it's in bits.
And we can't have this sort of backand forth.
And maybe I'm just old school.
I always think this is probablyhave my grandparents felt
(25:05):
when like the telephone was inventedor like the computer, they thought,
oh my God, this isthis is the end of humanity.
That's I don't know,
but we mean, for heaven's sake,we're being driven around
by driverless cars, and it's an effortto actually have human interaction.
It's so much easierto not interact with anybody.
(25:27):
Even when you go to buy something,
you just kind ofgo to the self-checkout line
and just scan your phoneand you're done, right?
There's no communication.
You don't get to say hello to the personwho's helping you
with your bags and talk about their day.
My daughter, who is 23 now, obviously
she's faced with all of this,as is everyone else in her age range.
(25:52):
And above and below her age.
But she has said to memore than once, mom, I'm so envious.
When you grew up, you went out all dayand you rode your bike with your friends,
and you came home.
When you came homeand you were in your community and
you were sharing informationback and forth and playing
and talking and laughingand seeing each other.
(26:14):
And she said,I don't know where to go for that.
And I think she's doing a pretty good job.
I'm proud of her, but she sees how
everybody is in their own little zone,forming their own opinions
about life, about truth, about whatis a valuable experience and what is not.
A valuable experience.
(26:35):
Is just harder and harderto create those human spaces, those spaces
where you go and play outside, where youdon't have a phone at the age of eight.
Right.
For, I think, families and parentswho actually want to create this reality
for their kids, it's really difficultbecause their kids go to school
with a whole bunch of people
who are always on their phone,who are always, like, tied to technology,
(26:58):
you know?
And so it's a real challengeto create that.
But I agree with your daughterthat how we grew up was really magical.
I mean, our generationsgot to see both sides.
You know,
we kind of got to experience what it'slike when technology got so advanced.
Well, I wish there was a wayfor us to get back to that.
Maybe we have to get throughthis sensationalism of the internet
(27:20):
and social media
and kind of get to the other end of itand say, okay, so here are the things
that are really good about it,
and here are the thingsthat are really terrible about it.
How do we get awayfrom the really terrible things?
Because in the beginning, all we thoughtwas, wow, this is super fabulous.
Look at this great thing.
Yeah, things come in wavesand the pendulum swings back and forth,
(27:43):
and I don't know what's going to happenwith AI and technology.
I am a believerthat things need to be regulated.
I think I was readingas a European country,
maybe the Netherlands, I'm not sure,
but they passed a law that gave ownership
of people's imagesand voices to themselves
(28:05):
and protected them from AI,which is things we need to be doing.
We do. But what a strange thingto have to think about. Yeah,
and here
did we not just totally deregulate. Yep.
And that is so scary.
And I imagine you know where we didhave some guardrails.
I was just thinking yesterdayabout how busy some people
(28:28):
are now trying to figure out,well how can I take advantage of this new,
this new thing I've been givenwhere it's just free, free rein.
I can do whateverI want with this platform.
Yeah, it's a powerful platformand a powerful tool, but it's so new.
And I think just like everything else,it requires us to be engaged
(28:50):
and to fight for protections and policies.
You know, we always say vote, vote, vote,get out the vote, you know,
but that happens, what,every two years, every four years,
sometimes every two years, if you reallywant to vote in the midterm elections.
But and then we step back.
But this is a constant thingwe ought to be engaged in.
And so we have to be in communicationwith policymakers and people.
(29:15):
We elect an office to, to, to help us
manage these thingsand let them know what we want.
Right.
And so just like anything else,we have to be on top of this
because it is very powerfuland it can be very beneficial.
And if you don't use it,maybe you will fall behind,
you know, in some circumstances.
(29:37):
But then you have to also seethe flip side of that and try
to protect yourself against the negativitythat comes with it or has potential for
we wouldn't have gotten ridof slavery and segregation
if it wasn't for regulation and governmentinvolvement.
Right.
So we've deregulated things now,and whereas in Arkansas,
(29:58):
they're building a whites only community,you know, so we're going backwards.
In many ways,this current environment is making
people feel so emboldened
to say all the crazy thingsthat they might have just thought,
or maybe these things showed upas like microaggressions
towards people,but now they're just out in the open.
(30:21):
We have people
bragging about,
let's take ownership of the word Nazi.
You have our Department of HomelandSecurity
posting images on their of us,on their website
or on their Twitterthat basically promotes manifest destiny.
You know, the beliefthat God meant for the white man
(30:43):
to conquer and expand through the USand settle the US and and,
you know, beproud of your heritage was what it said.
And so the guardrails are off.
They are. And we.
Need guardrails.
Well, and this feeling emboldenedI mean, there's this example
at the very top, you know,and if that person at the very top
(31:05):
can do this and get away with this and,you know, fluff his feathers
and the feathers of those around him,why can't I, as an ordinary citizen,
just throw stuff out therein the same fashion?
Yeah.
And in some ways, I thinkit's good to see them for who they are.
It's good to seeand know what people really think,
(31:30):
because that'sthe only way we can fight back
if they're always lurking in the shadows,or if they're afraid to say
that they actuallywant to take ownership of the word Nazi.
I'd be proud of it. I'd rather know that.
That's a really good point.
And I think in ages past,
people have always been
(31:50):
in the shadows supporting thingsthat aren't the best for humanity.
But we didn't have access to them.We didn't have.
They didn't have a place to have a voiceoutside of their little tiny community.
And you're right, now they've comeout of the shadows to a large degree.
Yeah.
And what's been interesting is to see
how many young people there are amongst
(32:13):
the groups that are saying these thingsand feeling this way.
And it's concerningbecause you always think that's
the old generation, racism died with themor will die with them, or we've evolved.
We know better going forward. Yeah.
I mean, I'm not hopeless, right?
This pendulum has to swingand I'm hopeful.
(32:34):
I think if I were ever to become hopeless,I'd probably stop doing the work I do.
I'm disappointed.
I'm frustrated, I'm scared.
I don't know exactly what'sgoing to happen, but I'm also hopeful.
I've seen, surprisingly, to me at least,I've seen the younger generation
rise up and take a stand on issuesthat their parents were afraid to
(32:57):
to speak up on, on issues
that were being criminalized, for example,what's happening in the Middle East.
Even going back,it was not even that that far,
far back was five, five years ago.
We had one of the biggest sortof racial justice reckonings
in U.S history in recent U.S history,after the murder of George Floyd.
(33:18):
And you saw these young people really comeout in droves and support the movement.
Now, a lot of our wins have beenrolled back, but but it's in them.
So I'm hoping that some of the crazy,scary stuff
will be counteracted by equally forcefuland just integrity based
(33:41):
action and beliefsfrom younger generations.
So who who, who don't subscribe to thatand who see the flaw
and the error in that?
I think for a good many years
we have had the luxury,
a lot of us, not you, of being complacent.
Everything's running along smoothly.
(34:01):
I mean, obviouslywe've had lots of major upset,
but generally things are running alongsmoothly and now they're not.
And how do we step out of the complacency?
I think a lot of us know we have to,but it's like, my gosh, is so different
than the way I've been living my lifefor all these years.
(34:23):
And you were speaking of the voteand how most of us,
you know, we get out and voteand I know for me,
when I vote, I'm like,yeah, that felt good.
I liked doing that.
I feel like I'm part of a community
and I'm showing support for something
that I've researchedand come to a conclusion on,
(34:44):
and my government wants to know
what I have to say, and that feels good.
And I feel like a lot of theseother things that we can be doing,
calling our congresspeopleand supporting our neighbors who are
fearfulwould be even more potent than that.
It's like, yeah, I'm doing something.
(35:04):
I have a voice that needs to be heard,and we all have a voice
that needs to be heard.
And it feels good toto do what you know is right.
It's absolutelythe antidote to hopelessness
is taking some sort of action.
And it's easier than you think.
Calling your Congress,the congressmen and women writing letters.
(35:26):
There are templates that,like multiple organizations, have prepared
that all you have to do is kind of addyour name or read off the script.
But in doing that,like there's power in numbers, right?
You might think,why would I send this form letter,
the same templatethat everyone else sent, right?
First of all, oftenyou can edit it, but it's a numbers game.
(35:47):
You know, when we did the death penaltyabolition campaign in Maryland,
we had we set up a call centerand where we connected voters
to their elected officials in the state
legislature to tell them how they feltabout the death penalty.
And how did you get that informationknown to the public there?
(36:08):
There are databases that are usedby call centers and these, political arms
of various campaigns that you can tap intothat has all the voter information.
Who's likely to vote this way,
who's a Democrat, who's a Republican,who's an independent, all of that.
So there's you know,we live in an information age.
We live in an age of data is so importance
(36:30):
and so much a factor of our livesmore than we think it is.
Right? We set up this call center
and and these guys
were overwhelmed by the number of callsthey were.
They were not preparedto get this many calls.
Their their answering machines had roomfor like ten voicemail messages.
(36:51):
So at some pointthey were really frustrated
with the number of callsthey were getting, which is fine.
They need to be frustratedbecause that's when you act.
You don't act when you're complacent. No.
No. And you right,you don't do something to strike out
when you're completely happy.
We are usually motivatedby some sort of upset.
Yeah.So so number is matter showing up matters.
(37:12):
Signing those petitions,making those calls, all of that matters.
That's part of the system that'sbeen set up for us to use our voices and,
I was speaking with a
scientist yesterday who's ultimately goingto be on our podcast.
She's an epi geneticist.
And as a scientist today,you know, she's losing her funding.
(37:33):
She doesn't know how much longer she's
going to be able to keep doing whatshe's doing, which is only fabulous stuff
that help us understandwho we are better than we ever did.
And she's been cut off.
But meanwhile, she knows thatand she's doing what she can
to try to support herscientific community.
She's making phone callsto representatives writing letters.
(37:57):
And I said, wow, do you really feel likethat's going anywhere?
And she says, absolutely it is.
We all have to do this.
It is the process that was set up for us.
So if you're not using it, you'renot doing good for your own community.
I mean, that is a it's sort of a,in a way, a hidden resource or a resource
that's been downplayed
(38:18):
because you really feel likeyou're not going to make a dent.
Yeah.
Unfortunately, what we've been told about
America in general is not the whole truth.
Right?
So as an immigrant,you come here, for example, thinking
especially if you comefrom like repressive.
We talked about this last time, repressivesettings.
You're like land of the free opportunity.
(38:40):
And I've had all of that. Right.
This is the reason I can dowhat I do and say.
What I say is
because I've had those opportunities
in this country,so I'm not knocking all of that.
And you wouldn't have had thatwhere you. Were.
I wouldn't have, right?
Some of the stuff that's happeningnow is actually reminding me
of some of the stuff that was happeningback home in terms of like just telling
of freedom of expressionand freedom of speech and the kidnaping.
(39:03):
And you mentionedwhen the Marines were here in Los Angeles,
I would drive by the federal buildingand I would see these orderly dressed up
men in Army uniform arms with gogglesand helmets and tanks and machine guns.
And it was so reminiscent of growing upafter the revolution in Iran.
(39:23):
Giving me goosebumps.
I had to do a double take the first timeI drove by there, and I was driving
and I was like, whoa,I have seen this before.
I had the I had a similar experience.
I mean, I born in the United States,but driving
by the federal building in Westwoodand it wasn't as extensive
as what you're describing, but I thought,I have never in my life seen this.
(39:46):
I have never seen these menstanding in front of this building
doing what they're doing.
This is a different world.
And I've heard the storiesof a few people, immigrants
who came to this country expecting,rightfully so, what you described.
And they say, okay,I, I'm not finding that here anymore.
(40:07):
And why am I here?
This is no better than where I was.
At least I have my familywhere I was. I'm leaving.
I think the lesson in all of itfor me, early on, I learned
this is not a place where your rights arehanded to you on a silver platter, right?
You have to fight for them.
And so I think the sooner we recognizethat and accept that, that that's
(40:28):
the only way anything in this countryhas ever changes as people have fought,
people have put themselves in risky,uncomfortable, dangerous situations.
From the very beginning.
From the very beginning.
So we there are a lot of opportunitiesin this country.
There's a lot of luxury to be had.
There's a lot of thingsthat you can enrich your life
(40:50):
with, much of whichhave been brought by immigrants.
But none of your rights are goingto be handed to you on a silver platter.
A lot of us have had, up until now,
the luxury of being complacent.
I remember having this conversation
with some of my friends and family
(41:10):
with the whole immigrationenforcement kids
and all the crazy things we're seeing,and I told them, you know, a lot of us
who've been inthis space are angry because we told you.
We told you defund the police,
not because we didn't believethat there should be like law
and consequences for peoplebreaking societal laws and norms.
(41:31):
But because we felt the systemwasn't working, it was too oppressive.
It was too discriminatory.
There was no accountability there.
You know, you didn't listen to usand you tried to paint us as radical.
We said, abolish Ice.
We have been saying abolish Icefrom the get go.
Look at where we are and what did we do?
Even Democrats gave more funding to Ice.
(41:52):
No one is sayingwe want to live in a lawless society.
We just got to look at what worksand what's actually humane.
You know, I work in a field.
I was having this conversationwith somebody the other day.
I said, I think everyone deserves dueprocess, even the worst criminals.
That's what the Constitution is about.
And the other day I was at a familygathering, and I have a family member
(42:15):
who is a Trump supporter,and he was going off about,
did you see this crime that was committedby this illegal immigrant
on the New York subway?
And I turned, I said,
who cares who committed the like, doyou care about the crime being committed
and making sure crime is not committedand it's addressed
and people are made whole?
Or do you care about who commits a crime?
(42:36):
So would you feel better if an Americancitizen had had committed this offense?
That's such a good point.
I just I. Don't understand this mentality.
Yeah. See, that's my frustration.
There's a lot of that going on.
Tell me I know you're just startingto formulate this idea
of a podcast orwhere do you see yourself going with it?
(42:59):
I'm so excited about it, I want it.
I can't wait for you to begin.But no pressure.
I'm excited to know,it's a new venture for me.
I've always been sort of the research,advocacy academic, you know, activist and.
You know, a lot of speaking.I do a lot of public speaking.
I'm looking forward to creating a platform
wherewe can have more of these conversations.
(43:19):
We kind of dissect the issuesand really look at the context
and bring an element of truth, humanityand compassion
to some of the most relevant,
some more controversialor very controversial issues of our time.
Because I think it's so polarizedout there, and much of the platforms
(43:41):
for the left
and the right are sticking to their guns,and they're talking points
in the propaganda.
And I just kind of want to bring it backdown to the foundation of the argument
and the foundation of justhuman compassion and and doing this work
with integrity, which I think is missingin a lot of conversations.
(44:01):
Definitely a need to create spaces to have
really honest,human centered conversations
about the most sort of politicizedand polarized and controversial issues.
Of our time. That would be great.
That sounds great.
And you're the person for the job.
It is so hard these days to knowwithout doing a lot of research,
(44:22):
which I know you're a big believer in.
I agree with you to knowwhat is propaganda and what is truth,
and to be able to hear conversationslike those that you're going to have.
I think you'll be a trusted sourceand and those people that are choosing to
listen are going to be able to come awayand feel good about forming their opinions
(44:43):
based on what they hear,you and your guests speaking about.
That's the hope.
Let's hope so. Yeah.
So when you know what it's called,you'll let us know.
And when you're getting back to actuallygetting started and we could talk again.
Yeah for sure. I would love to.
The fabulous Doctor Bail,he would say that all of us
(45:05):
need to dowhat we can to find our best self,
to work from a place of authenticityin terms of our feelings.
And that is also authenticity in termsof what we know.
It's authenticity in terms of being ableto tell the truth with confidence.
And when we do those things, really,really, really, we're going to feel
(45:28):
better about ourselves.
And when we feel better about ourselves,we're only going to lift up
those around us. 100. Percent.
That's my little soapbox.
Okay, Niaz, thank you again.
Yeah. You're welcome.Thanks for having me. Of course.
And we'll see you next time.
And thank youall for listening and watching.
And follow us and ask us questions.
(45:52):
And.
Hi, my name
is Cynthia Marks,and I head up the Holistic Psychoanalysis
Foundation, established by my latehusband, Doctor Bernard Bail.
Welcome to And Now Love.
DoctorKasravi is a national expert and advocate
on criminal justice, social justiceand racial justice.
(00:26):
With more than 17 years of experienceleading projects across the country.
She is the founder and directorof the Avalan Institute
for Applied Research, a research,
advocacy and training institute.
She is also the former directorof the Criminal Justice
Program for the NAACP,
(00:49):
and she holds a PhD
in Criminology, Law and Society
from the University of Californiaat Irvine.
Doctor Niaz Kasravi was born in Iranand migrated to the U.S.
with her family in 1984.
During our first episode together,
(01:10):
we talked about what justice meansin the world of advocacy.
Niaz also shared with us some of the waysthat she passionately works to help
others have their voices heardand be supported in their communities.
Today, we want to dive in and discusssome of the topics
that Niaz and others like herare currently addressing.
(01:34):
Hello, Niaz. Hi, Cynthia.
Thank you for being here again.
Yeah, good to see you again.
You're going to be our socialadvocacy expert.
I'm honored.
Niaz is also
on the verge of beginning her own podcast,which is going to be fabulous, I'm sure.
So, like I said, let's dive inand you mentioned this to me
(01:56):
the other day about feeling normal.
So if you wake up every morning
feeling normal,given the circumstances in our world,
our big picture world, our smaller
communities, our nation,
what does that mean?
If you think you're feeling normal.
(02:17):
How can somebody feel normal today?
I don't know.
It's very difficult.
I wake up every single day.
I literally have a debate in my own head
about,am I going to look at the news right away?
Am I going to wait?
Take a breather, do my stuff,morning stuff, and then dive into it?
(02:38):
Because I know as soon as I jumpon that media or social media platform,
I'm going to be bombarded with images
that are completely heartwrenching, of people being whisked away
by masked agents in unmarked trucks,
people being starved to death,halfway across the world.
(03:00):
And there is so much that is comingat us on a regular basis that
I struggle
to to decide,when do I want to expose myself to that?
And I think our brains weren't reallydesigned to be bombarded with such graphic
and heartwrenching images and informationon a regular and consistent basis.
(03:22):
And you can't really,
because you have that same feeling.
You sort of can't deny someonewanting to push that away because it is
like you say, it's just heart wrenching onso many different levels.
It's heart wrenching, and I get that.
Peoplemay sometimes want to protect themselves
and their familiesfrom being exposed to that level of trauma
(03:46):
on a regular basis,and that's a real kind of concern.
But there are boundaries to I think, thatwe have to be cognizant of around
protecting our sanity versusliving in ignorance and in la la land.
Basically, I agreeand I think that in a way,
if you are protecting yourselfand even your family
(04:09):
and trying to create thispretty little bubble,
you're not dealing with realityand you're creating in your own body
a different sort of trauma,the human experience.
I think, requires us to be
part of humanity.
We have to find a way to do
(04:30):
something to supportwhat we believe is the truth.
And we all have suchdifferent circumstances,
and some of us are really struggling,
really struggling just to put foodon the table, just to get the job done.
And, you know,you think, who has time to devote to this?
But in some little waywe've got to do something.
And I think the less we door if we are enabled to do anything
(04:54):
because we can't get ourselves out of
just this little protective bubble,we're burdening ourselves.
I think a couple of things come to mind.
Number one, injustice
isn't always done through action.
By not doing anything you can also promotethe injustice that is around you
(05:19):
that you can and should have a handin stopping and rolling back.
Right.
And I think we each have to figure outwhat those boundaries
are for us in termsof protecting our own sanity.
But I don't think pulling backand being in complete
ignorance is the answer or a valid optionright now for us.
(05:40):
And all of this stuffis very frustrating and sad,
and it makes you angry and depressedat some at some points, right?
But I think the antidoteto all of that is action.
And that can look different for everybody.
Not everybody has to do the same things.
Different things may be of concernto you, them than than to me.
(06:01):
Right.
So we got to choose
what are the thingsthat we really care about,
and how is itthat we want to address those things.
Right.
So by action I don't mean just like
one thing likeget out on the street and protest, right?
It could be anything.
It could be talking to your neighbor,seeing what they need.
If you see that they
are being impacted in these times,it could be talking to your kids
(06:23):
and making sure they know what's going onso they can be aware
just in the community.
Those are huge things.
Yeah.
So so action iscan be defined very differently.
But I think that is the antidote to howwe're probably all of us are feeling. Yes.
And I think to the positive side of this,for example,
(06:43):
we've had quite the focus on immigrationissues here in Los Angeles.
And it's been lovelyto see so much of Los Angeles
coming together to support the peoplewho are struggling with this issue.
And I hear people saying,I don't know what to do, what can I do?
What can I do?
And and it's almost coming upwith an instinctual response of, well,
(07:08):
I can't keep theseall of these people out of jail.
I can't keep them from this strifeor whatever
it may be, but maybe I can make surethey have dinner on the table tonight.
Maybe I can babysit their kidsfor the day.
And those things are huge.
There's things you need to doif you are amongst
(07:28):
the communities that are impacted,and there are things that you need to do
and can do if you're on the outsideand have the privilege of not yet
being impacted, right.
Because all of this is a slippery slope,it. Sure is right.
And we can see that right now.
We can see thatand we can get into that in a little bit.
But as someone who's not being impacted,there are so many things you can.
First of all, be aware
(07:50):
and educate yourselfabout what's happening in your community,
like what's happening to my neighbors,even those who may not look like me
or have the same cultureor religion or nationality.
What is going on around me?
Second of all,you can disrupt this authoritarian
sort of narrative that's coming at usfrom all sides about demonizing
(08:12):
certain communities, and particularlyimmigrant communities in this country.
You can disrupt that narrative.
You can document abuses that you see,especially if you're privileged.
Right.
It's been actually heartwarmingto see a lot of people from like,
white allieswho witness a kidnaping of an immigrant by
and they take out their phoneand they record what's happening,
(08:34):
and they approach themand they ask for their badge number
and their nameand whether they have a warrant.
Often they don't get anywherebut the act of disruption and standing up.
It means something on its own.
It's right.But it's also a slippery slope.
I mean, America has had many wavesof anti-immigrant like sentimentality
throughout its history,but the most recent, let's say
(08:56):
we look at this administration,it started in the first round, right?
But it wasn't this severe.
When we got to the electionthe second time, we started hearing
all of this rhetoric about immigrantscommitting more crime, which is not true.
Right.
And these basically liesthat serve to anger
and demonize anger peopleand demonize the other.
(09:19):
Right.
And then it started by we're only goingto go after the violent criminals.
Right?
And then that's not the case,because we know
a majority of people who've been swept,swept up in these, you know, raids.
Have are not they're not that.
And the violent criminals are going to be
generally pretty hard to findbecause they're most aren't.
(09:39):
Right.
And then it became about,you know, they're eating cats and dogs.
Right. The craziest thing you ever heard.
And that became everyone'safraid for their pets now.
Right.
And then it became about,well, maybe we can de naturalize
some people based onnot just criminal offenses,
(10:01):
but maybe even civil offenses,which is what they're talking about.
Right?
Then you get all of thislike dialog about control,
people's freedom of expressionand free speech, and people being
harassed at the border because someonelooks through their social media,
or maybe they're a podcast hostthat said something that the powers
(10:21):
that be don't like.
So where does the line stop?
And I think if you just thinkthat this is never going to affect me,
I think that's a really shortsighted wayof looking at how authoritarianism
and really the road to fascism,which we're on right now, works.
Yeah.
Well, and I think keeping that in mind,this slippery slope, it's
(10:45):
not me being affected right now,
but if I'm just watching how quicklythis is falling apart,
I'm down the lineand I better do something now
to make a pointand help the people that are
unfortunately being affected now
so that other people down the line
will possibly not be affected in this.
(11:07):
It's I think we have to supportat the very beginning,
and it's really hard because it's so hardto buy into what's happening.
You can't.Who could have imagined it? Yeah.
And it does something to you.
Watching injustice is traumatic,as you said.
I remember when we used to work on
prison issues and the death penalty,and there were a lot of conversations
(11:31):
about the impacts of being a partof this brutal system on the guards
and on the people who actually hadto operate the death chamber.
The watch chain.
Injustice and violence and brutality,I think, really messes you up as well.
So, you know, not only is itthe right thing to do to be involved,
(11:52):
but there's all these other reasonsthat should prompt people to say
this is not okay,and I got to do something. Yes.
Even just watching the Marinesand the National Guard here in Los Angeles
and thinking about their families and.
There's got to
be immigration inand amongst most of those people.
(12:15):
I mean, who here in the United Statesisn't in some way coming from someplace
else, just aboutI mean, there are Native Americans,
of course,but the rest of us came from somewhere.
And I have often thought, what do these
poor people who have to stand
hard against this really feel inside?
(12:36):
Some of them?
Not all of them,but some of them, like what a battle.
It's tough.
I think it's very tough.
Like you said, we're all immigrants.
What? America's with 250 years old.
So unless you're a Native Americanindigenous person on this land,
we're all either immigrants ourselves.
The children are the grandchildrenof immigrants.
(12:58):
Right.
And so that has been twisted.
Very much so by
throughout the history of the US,but especially by
this kind of new wave of anti-immigrationand anti-immigrant narrative.
Right.
But it's also, for me, it'sbeen so heartbreaking
and wild to see these videos of blackand brown people
(13:20):
masked up in unmarked cars doing thisto other black and brown people.
I don't know what that does to youpsyche psychologically.
Right there, but it's got to be terrible.
All you're looking at someone whowho could be your sister.
I try to understand it.
I am sure a big factor of itall is financial.
(13:43):
This is a job,but I'm sure people who followed
Hitler'sorders were only doing their job as well.
So at what point do you likedraw the line and say,
I don't want to do this jobbecause it's immoral?
And I think that's a question
that everybody who's inthat position has to ask themselves.
(14:04):
And we don't live in an easy societyor a world.
We live in a hyper capitalistic nation
that values monetary successalmost above all else.
Yes, it. Right.
And so it's not an unveil.
You got to survive.
You got to put food on the tablefor your family.
(14:25):
You got to save up for your old age,all the things that every human being
is concerned about.
But at what costand what are the other options?
Right. That is not the only optionfor our profession.
It's easier said than done, I understand.
Yeah.
And as a as a marine,
you didn't walk into that careerthinking that you would be standing
(14:46):
in front of this group of peopleand be responsible for
sending them out of the countrythat they came to for safety.
Yeah, I think a lot of people enterthese professions without thinking
about some of the difficult positions.
They may be put in based on
what is happeningdomestically and even internationally.
(15:07):
You think about the men and womenwho were sent abroad and were,
for example,participated in that and the torture,
that was happening in Iraq prisons.
And, you know, these are these are not
things that they probably thoughtthey would be asked to do.
But I think you have to consider thatwhen you choose your profession
(15:27):
and things you want to do in life,you have to kind of think
much more down the linethat that than at first it might seem.
Yes, I think that's really smart.
And I think kind of goes along withjust wanting to have this feeling
of normalcy, you know, just I justam going to deal with this little package.
(15:47):
And you know whatI've been thinking about this.
We just don't have the luxuryto feel normal.
We got to try and remaincentered and balanced and
it's going to spill over once in a while.
And it's fine.
You're going to get emotional,you're going to get angry.
But we can't sit hereand pretend that this is normal
and let me just live a normal life.
(16:08):
Unfortunately,that is not the era we're living in.
We got to deal withwhat the context that we're in.
And so yes, it's an effort to try to feel
some sort of normal every day,and you got to try to stay balanced.
But I think ignoring it is only going
to make it worse for everybody,including ourselves.
(16:30):
Exactly.
Yeah.
I mean, we are all human,which means we are part of humanity.
And humanity is what we have to support.
We can't just be protecting our ownlittle human selves
because we're going to fall apartas humanity.
So to talk a little bit about immigration,
what are some of the ways that we can help
(16:53):
those that are in fear?
Well we talkedabout that a little bit in the beginning.
I think that first of all it'sreally important
and I know this sounds you knowno one wants to do more research.
No one wants to like listen to the newsand then have to go fact check it.
(17:14):
You know.
But we have to really do a little diggingbefore we buy everything
that is thrown at us by the mediaor by social media, I mean, a lot
of social media platforms literally firedtheir fact checkers, right?
And I think to a great extent,
journalism in this countryand that media apparatus
(17:38):
as a whole,there's still some very integral,
you know, people and shows and platforms,but as a whole has lost
a level of integritybecause it's become about
profit versus truth telling.
And in order to get profit,you have to have more viewers.
And in order to have more viewers,you have to be sensational.
(18:00):
And so you got to make people feel thingsreally quickly,
you know, either angry or sador happy or frustrated.
Something that keeps people coming back.
And in order to do that,they have to kind of
give up the contextand the complexity of the issues
that the, you know, they are talking aboutand they're exposing people to.
(18:20):
So in a lot of ways,
all of us, whether we're impactedby this recent kind of development around
immigration enforcement or not, we have towe have to educate ourselves.
We have to not take everything we see onmedia, our social media, at face value.
They're still trusted sources that we canrely on that for the most part.
You know, they might have their leanings,
(18:41):
but they're not going to knowinglypromote lies.
And but we all have different ideasabout what the truth really is.
Yeah.
And but if somebody is promoting an idea,for example, immigrants are responsible
for, majority of crimes
and violent crimes in America,and those numbers are going up.
None of that is true accordingto the government's own statistics.
(19:03):
Right.
And so all it takes is for meas an individual to be like,
I wonder if this is true and kind of goand look up that study and just not take.
And so it's a little annoying thatwe have to do a little bit more legwork.
But I think number one is to really be
aware of what's actual and what's not,
(19:23):
and what's being bent out of shapeand presented as the truth.
And if you're impacted by sort ofwhat is happening currently,
it's really important to know your rights,
carry your papers or copies, have itmemorized.
And number two, a loved oneand an attorney, you know, all that stuff.
But also it's importantto decipher fact from fiction as well,
(19:44):
because I think part
of characteristic of the times we'reliving in and out of the road to fascism.
I will say this because I really believethat's what we're on,
is to have people live in fear.
And so we're constantlyliving in fear of like, well,
if I post this and if I traveland maybe I shouldn't do this.
And so we should actually bea little bit more aware
(20:07):
about what's propagandaand what they're actually doing.
So how many people have they actually denaturalized.
They have.
But for what and how long did it take.
Right.
And so there is a balance to kind ofhaving some sort of agency around
how you feeland not living in fear every day,
but being cognizantof protecting yourself.
(20:29):
So to find these sourcesis totally easy for you
because you know where to goand who's providing the truth
if, well, this they're telling me
that everybody is a violent criminaland that is hard for me to believe.
Where do I go for the research?
I have trusted criminal justiceorganizations that I go to
on their website.
(20:50):
But even then, like,you can pull up their reports and look at
like where are theygetting their crime data, for example.
And then you can clickand it'll take you to the FBI
kind of website that tells you the actualcrime rates, you know, news outlets.
I think the big ones for me,I always go to NPR.
(21:11):
I'm definitely progressive.
So I go to Democracy Now!
I go to Los AngelesTimes, Washington Post, New York Times,
you know, all your big outlets.
And then I do a little bit more diggingafter that.
I'm wary of news outlets, for example,like Fox News
that have in courtadmitted that they're not really news.
And they, you know,they have promoted lies,
(21:31):
for example, about the electionhaving been stolen and things like that.
So you got to be wary of news outlets
that actually have admittedthat we're not really always news.
I think we just don't live in a worldwhere we can
take anything we see on,
the internet
as complete fact without doingat least one more step of checking.
(21:53):
We spoke about this earlier,before we had cameras in front of us
about how the division amongst usis just growing and growing,
and it's almost as ifin the world of truth,
even perhaps you pick a side
and you uphold your side so much
(22:14):
that you almost lose sight of
what it is you're supporting.
You're justyou just know you can't back down.
How do we come back to the middle?
I mean, part of what made America sogreat was it was a meeting of the minds.
It was listening to each other.
It was learning from each other,was not disrespecting one another.
(22:37):
Because we.
You have a different idea than I do.
I am so concerned about this dividethat we have.
It's really sad,
quite depressing.
And I wish I had the answer toI mean, there are some,
some there are, of course,some factors that to me are obvious.
(23:00):
Right?
I think that the age of the internet
and technology has really allowed
us to be divided
based on things we followand what the algorithms throw at us.
So I do think that a lot of
what we need to do is sometimesjust put the technology aside.
(23:22):
And have conversations like this.
You and I have talked about how sometimeswhen I post online,
I'm very bold and I'm very potent.
Yes, I love it. Thank you.
Sometimes I sit there and I say,why am I even saying this?
Right?
Sometimes I'll, like, censor myselfand be like, I've said this five times.
No one's listening.
No one's changing their minds.
(23:42):
Not true. And keep it. Up.
Thank you.
But I think it's easier.
It can be good in some ways, right?
It's easier to be very boldand say exactly what you think.
Sitting in your homeor in your office behind a computer desk.
And you don't have to look the personyou're saying this to at the AI, right?
(24:02):
They're not fronting. You face to face.
And sometimes that can lead youto do things
to be more upsetting to them or be likesomewhat even offensive to them.
You sort of embolden.
Insult, insult them, right?
You're an idiot if you believe this.
For example, we might type but Iif I'm sitting with you
(24:23):
and talking to you,I can disagree with you,
but I'm not going to sit here and look at,well, I'm not.
Some people might
look you in
the eye andsay, you're an idiot for believing this.
I'll be like, this makes no sense to me.
Why do you believe this?
And I think that personal interactionhas been really reduced
(24:44):
to very minimal settings.
That's so true.
And our major form of communicationnow is limited.
It's in bytes, it's in bits.
And we can't have this sort of backand forth.
And maybe I'm just old school.
I always think this is probablyhave my grandparents felt
(25:05):
when like the telephone was inventedor like the computer, they thought,
oh my God, this isthis is the end of humanity.
That's I don't know,
but we mean, for heaven's sake,we're being driven around
by driverless cars, and it's an effortto actually have human interaction.
It's so much easierto not interact with anybody.
(25:27):
Even when you go to buy something,
you just kind ofgo to the self-checkout line
and just scan your phoneand you're done, right?
There's no communication.
You don't get to say hello to the personwho's helping you
with your bags and talk about their day.
My daughter, who is 23 now, obviously
she's faced with all of this,as is everyone else in her age range.
(25:52):
And above and below her age.
But she has said to memore than once, mom, I'm so envious.
When you grew up, you went out all dayand you rode your bike with your friends,
and you came home.
When you came homeand you were in your community and
you were sharing informationback and forth and playing
and talking and laughingand seeing each other.
(26:14):
And she said,I don't know where to go for that.
And I think she's doing a pretty good job.
I'm proud of her, but she sees how
everybody is in their own little zone,forming their own opinions
about life, about truth, about whatis a valuable experience and what is not.
A valuable experience.
(26:35):
Is just harder and harderto create those human spaces, those spaces
where you go and play outside, where youdon't have a phone at the age of eight.
Right.
For, I think, families and parentswho actually want to create this reality
for their kids, it's really difficultbecause their kids go to school
with a whole bunch of people
who are always on their phone,who are always, like, tied to technology,
(26:58):
you know?
And so it's a real challengeto create that.
But I agree with your daughterthat how we grew up was really magical.
I mean, our generationsgot to see both sides.
You know,
we kind of got to experience what it'slike when technology got so advanced.
Well, I wish there was a wayfor us to get back to that.
Maybe we have to get throughthis sensationalism of the internet
(27:20):
and social media
and kind of get to the other end of itand say, okay, so here are the things
that are really good about it,
and here are the thingsthat are really terrible about it.
How do we get awayfrom the really terrible things?
Because in the beginning, all we thoughtwas, wow, this is super fabulous.
Look at this great thing.
Yeah, things come in wavesand the pendulum swings back and forth,
(27:43):
and I don't know what's going to happenwith AI and technology.
I am a believerthat things need to be regulated.
I think I was readingas a European country,
maybe the Netherlands, I'm not sure,
but they passed a law that gave ownership
of people's imagesand voices to themselves
(28:05):
and protected them from AI,which is things we need to be doing.
We do. But what a strange thingto have to think about. Yeah,
and here
did we not just totally deregulate. Yep.
And that is so scary.
And I imagine you know where we didhave some guardrails.
I was just thinking yesterdayabout how busy some people
(28:28):
are now trying to figure out,well how can I take advantage of this new,
this new thing I've been givenwhere it's just free, free rein.
I can do whateverI want with this platform.
Yeah, it's a powerful platformand a powerful tool, but it's so new.
And I think just like everything else,it requires us to be engaged
(28:50):
and to fight for protections and policies.
You know, we always say vote, vote, vote,get out the vote, you know,
but that happens, what,every two years, every four years,
sometimes every two years, if you reallywant to vote in the midterm elections.
But and then we step back.
But this is a constant thingwe ought to be engaged in.
And so we have to be in communicationwith policymakers and people.
(29:15):
We elect an office to, to, to help us
manage these thingsand let them know what we want.
Right.
And so just like anything else,we have to be on top of this
because it is very powerfuland it can be very beneficial.
And if you don't use it,maybe you will fall behind,
you know, in some circumstances.
(29:37):
But then you have to also seethe flip side of that and try
to protect yourself against the negativitythat comes with it or has potential for
we wouldn't have gotten ridof slavery and segregation
if it wasn't for regulation and governmentinvolvement.
Right.
So we've deregulated things now,and whereas in Arkansas,
(29:58):
they're building a whites only community,you know, so we're going backwards.
In many ways,this current environment is making
people feel so emboldened
to say all the crazy thingsthat they might have just thought,
or maybe these things showed upas like microaggressions
towards people,but now they're just out in the open.
(30:21):
We have people
bragging about,
let's take ownership of the word Nazi.
You have our Department of HomelandSecurity
posting images on their of us,on their website
or on their Twitterthat basically promotes manifest destiny.
You know, the beliefthat God meant for the white man
(30:43):
to conquer and expand through the USand settle the US and and,
you know, beproud of your heritage was what it said.
And so the guardrails are off.
They are. And we.
Need guardrails.
Well, and this feeling emboldenedI mean, there's this example
at the very top, you know,and if that person at the very top
(31:05):
can do this and get away with this and,you know, fluff his feathers
and the feathers of those around him,why can't I, as an ordinary citizen,
just throw stuff out therein the same fashion?
Yeah.
And in some ways, I thinkit's good to see them for who they are.
It's good to seeand know what people really think,
(31:30):
because that'sthe only way we can fight back
if they're always lurking in the shadows,or if they're afraid to say
that they actuallywant to take ownership of the word Nazi.
I'd be proud of it. I'd rather know that.
That's a really good point.
And I think in ages past,
people have always been
(31:50):
in the shadows supporting thingsthat aren't the best for humanity.
But we didn't have access to them.We didn't have.
They didn't have a place to have a voiceoutside of their little tiny community.
And you're right, now they've comeout of the shadows to a large degree.
Yeah.
And what's been interesting is to see
how many young people there are amongst
(32:13):
the groups that are saying these thingsand feeling this way.
And it's concerningbecause you always think that's
the old generation, racism died with themor will die with them, or we've evolved.
We know better going forward. Yeah.
I mean, I'm not hopeless, right?
This pendulum has to swingand I'm hopeful.
(32:34):
I think if I were ever to become hopeless,I'd probably stop doing the work I do.
I'm disappointed.
I'm frustrated, I'm scared.
I don't know exactly what'sgoing to happen, but I'm also hopeful.
I've seen, surprisingly, to me at least,I've seen the younger generation
rise up and take a stand on issuesthat their parents were afraid to
(32:57):
to speak up on, on issues
that were being criminalized, for example,what's happening in the Middle East.
Even going back,it was not even that that far,
far back was five, five years ago.
We had one of the biggest sortof racial justice reckonings
in U.S history in recent U.S history,after the murder of George Floyd.
(33:18):
And you saw these young people really comeout in droves and support the movement.
Now, a lot of our wins have beenrolled back, but but it's in them.
So I'm hoping that some of the crazy,scary stuff
will be counteracted by equally forcefuland just integrity based
(33:41):
action and beliefsfrom younger generations.
So who who, who don't subscribe to thatand who see the flaw
and the error in that?
I think for a good many years
we have had the luxury,
a lot of us, not you, of being complacent.
Everything's running along smoothly.
(34:01):
I mean, obviouslywe've had lots of major upset,
but generally things are running alongsmoothly and now they're not.
And how do we step out of the complacency?
I think a lot of us know we have to,but it's like, my gosh, is so different
than the way I've been living my lifefor all these years.
(34:23):
And you were speaking of the voteand how most of us,
you know, we get out and voteand I know for me,
when I vote, I'm like,yeah, that felt good.
I liked doing that.
I feel like I'm part of a community
and I'm showing support for something
that I've researchedand come to a conclusion on,
(34:44):
and my government wants to know
what I have to say, and that feels good.
And I feel like a lot of theseother things that we can be doing,
calling our congresspeopleand supporting our neighbors who are
fearfulwould be even more potent than that.
It's like, yeah, I'm doing something.
(35:04):
I have a voice that needs to be heard,and we all have a voice
that needs to be heard.
And it feels good toto do what you know is right.
It's absolutelythe antidote to hopelessness
is taking some sort of action.
And it's easier than you think.
Calling your Congress,the congressmen and women writing letters.
(35:26):
There are templates that,like multiple organizations, have prepared
that all you have to do is kind of addyour name or read off the script.
But in doing that,like there's power in numbers, right?
You might think,why would I send this form letter,
the same templatethat everyone else sent, right?
First of all, oftenyou can edit it, but it's a numbers game.
(35:47):
You know, when we did the death penaltyabolition campaign in Maryland,
we had we set up a call centerand where we connected voters
to their elected officials in the state
legislature to tell them how they feltabout the death penalty.
And how did you get that informationknown to the public there?
(36:08):
There are databases that are usedby call centers and these, political arms
of various campaigns that you can tap intothat has all the voter information.
Who's likely to vote this way,
who's a Democrat, who's a Republican,who's an independent, all of that.
So there's you know,we live in an information age.
We live in an age of data is so importance
(36:30):
and so much a factor of our livesmore than we think it is.
Right? We set up this call center
and and these guys
were overwhelmed by the number of callsthey were.
They were not preparedto get this many calls.
Their their answering machines had roomfor like ten voicemail messages.
(36:51):
So at some pointthey were really frustrated
with the number of callsthey were getting, which is fine.
They need to be frustratedbecause that's when you act.
You don't act when you're complacent. No.
No. And you right,you don't do something to strike out
when you're completely happy.
We are usually motivatedby some sort of upset.
Yeah.So so number is matter showing up matters.
(37:12):
Signing those petitions,making those calls, all of that matters.
That's part of the system that'sbeen set up for us to use our voices and,
I was speaking with a
scientist yesterday who's ultimately goingto be on our podcast.
She's an epi geneticist.
And as a scientist today,you know, she's losing her funding.
(37:33):
She doesn't know how much longer she's
going to be able to keep doing whatshe's doing, which is only fabulous stuff
that help us understandwho we are better than we ever did.
And she's been cut off.
But meanwhile, she knows thatand she's doing what she can
to try to support herscientific community.
She's making phone callsto representatives writing letters.
(37:57):
And I said, wow, do you really feel likethat's going anywhere?
And she says, absolutely it is.
We all have to do this.
It is the process that was set up for us.
So if you're not using it, you'renot doing good for your own community.
I mean, that is a it's sort of a,in a way, a hidden resource or a resource
that's been downplayed
(38:18):
because you really feel likeyou're not going to make a dent.
Yeah.
Unfortunately, what we've been told about
America in general is not the whole truth.
Right?
So as an immigrant,you come here, for example, thinking
especially if you comefrom like repressive.
We talked about this last time, repressivesettings.
You're like land of the free opportunity.
(38:40):
And I've had all of that. Right.
This is the reason I can dowhat I do and say.
What I say is
because I've had those opportunities
in this country,so I'm not knocking all of that.
And you wouldn't have had thatwhere you. Were.
I wouldn't have, right?
Some of the stuff that's happeningnow is actually reminding me
of some of the stuff that was happeningback home in terms of like just telling
of freedom of expressionand freedom of speech and the kidnaping.
(39:03):
And you mentionedwhen the Marines were here in Los Angeles,
I would drive by the federal buildingand I would see these orderly dressed up
men in Army uniform arms with gogglesand helmets and tanks and machine guns.
And it was so reminiscent of growing upafter the revolution in Iran.
(39:23):
Giving me goosebumps.
I had to do a double take the first timeI drove by there, and I was driving
and I was like, whoa,I have seen this before.
I had the I had a similar experience.
I mean, I born in the United States,but driving
by the federal building in Westwoodand it wasn't as extensive
as what you're describing, but I thought,I have never in my life seen this.
(39:46):
I have never seen these menstanding in front of this building
doing what they're doing.
This is a different world.
And I've heard the storiesof a few people, immigrants
who came to this country expecting,rightfully so, what you described.
And they say, okay,I, I'm not finding that here anymore.
(40:07):
And why am I here?
This is no better than where I was.
At least I have my familywhere I was. I'm leaving.
I think the lesson in all of itfor me, early on, I learned
this is not a place where your rights arehanded to you on a silver platter, right?
You have to fight for them.
And so I think the sooner we recognizethat and accept that, that that's
(40:28):
the only way anything in this countryhas ever changes as people have fought,
people have put themselves in risky,uncomfortable, dangerous situations.
From the very beginning.
From the very beginning.
So we there are a lot of opportunitiesin this country.
There's a lot of luxury to be had.
There's a lot of thingsthat you can enrich your life
(40:50):
with, much of whichhave been brought by immigrants.
But none of your rights are goingto be handed to you on a silver platter.
A lot of us have had, up until now,
the luxury of being complacent.
I remember having this conversation
with some of my friends and family
(41:10):
with the whole immigrationenforcement kids
and all the crazy things we're seeing,and I told them, you know, a lot of us
who've been inthis space are angry because we told you.
We told you defund the police,
not because we didn't believethat there should be like law
and consequences for peoplebreaking societal laws and norms.
(41:31):
But because we felt the systemwasn't working, it was too oppressive.
It was too discriminatory.
There was no accountability there.
You know, you didn't listen to usand you tried to paint us as radical.
We said, abolish Ice.
We have been saying abolish Icefrom the get go.
Look at where we are and what did we do?
Even Democrats gave more funding to Ice.
(41:52):
No one is sayingwe want to live in a lawless society.
We just got to look at what worksand what's actually humane.
You know, I work in a field.
I was having this conversationwith somebody the other day.
I said, I think everyone deserves dueprocess, even the worst criminals.
That's what the Constitution is about.
And the other day I was at a familygathering, and I have a family member
(42:15):
who is a Trump supporter,and he was going off about,
did you see this crime that was committedby this illegal immigrant
on the New York subway?
And I turned, I said,
who cares who committed the like, doyou care about the crime being committed
and making sure crime is not committedand it's addressed
and people are made whole?
Or do you care about who commits a crime?
(42:36):
So would you feel better if an Americancitizen had had committed this offense?
That's such a good point.
I just I. Don't understand this mentality.
Yeah. See, that's my frustration.
There's a lot of that going on.
Tell me I know you're just startingto formulate this idea
of a podcast orwhere do you see yourself going with it?
(42:59):
I'm so excited about it, I want it.
I can't wait for you to begin.But no pressure.
I'm excited to know,it's a new venture for me.
I've always been sort of the research,advocacy academic, you know, activist and.
You know, a lot of speaking.I do a lot of public speaking.
I'm looking forward to creating a platform
wherewe can have more of these conversations.
(43:19):
We kind of dissect the issuesand really look at the context
and bring an element of truth, humanityand compassion
to some of the most relevant,
some more controversialor very controversial issues of our time.
Because I think it's so polarizedout there, and much of the platforms
(43:41):
for the left
and the right are sticking to their guns,and they're talking points
in the propaganda.
And I just kind of want to bring it backdown to the foundation of the argument
and the foundation of justhuman compassion and and doing this work
with integrity, which I think is missingin a lot of conversations.
(44:01):
Definitely a need to create spaces to have
really honest,human centered conversations
about the most sort of politicizedand polarized and controversial issues.
Of our time. That would be great.
That sounds great.
And you're the person for the job.
It is so hard these days to knowwithout doing a lot of research,
(44:22):
which I know you're a big believer in.
I agree with you to knowwhat is propaganda and what is truth,
and to be able to hear conversationslike those that you're going to have.
I think you'll be a trusted sourceand and those people that are choosing to
listen are going to be able to come awayand feel good about forming their opinions
(44:43):
based on what they hear,you and your guests speaking about.
That's the hope.
Let's hope so. Yeah.
So when you know what it's called,you'll let us know.
And when you're getting back to actuallygetting started and we could talk again.
Yeah for sure. I would love to.
The fabulous Doctor Bail,he would say that all of us
(45:05):
need to dowhat we can to find our best self,
to work from a place of authenticityin terms of our feelings.
And that is also authenticity in termsof what we know.
It's authenticity in terms of being ableto tell the truth with confidence.
And when we do those things, really,really, really, we're going to feel
(45:28):
better about ourselves.
And when we feel better about ourselves,we're only going to lift up
those around us. 100. Percent.
That's my little soapbox.
Okay, Niaz, thank you again.
Yeah. You're welcome.Thanks for having me. Of course.
And we'll see you next time.
And thank youall for listening and watching.
And follow us and ask us questions.
(45:52):
And.
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