Cynthia Marks on Bernard Bail, Dreams, and the Mother’s Imprint

In this intimate conversation, host Cynthia Marks turns the mic on herself to share the love story and life lessons behind And Now Love. She recounts meeting psychoanalyst Dr. Bernard Bail at age 92, the dream that foretold their partnership, and how dreamwork helped her peel back imprints and find her true voice. With Dr. Loren Weiner, Cynthia traces Bail’s arc—from WWII POW to paradigm-challenging analyst—showing how his experiences shaped a theory that the “war inside” must be healed to end the wars outside. They reflect on spirit, courage, and why genuine love is action, not lip service. Cynthia offers raw, moving examples of dreams that expose locked-in patterns, and the freedom that comes from naming what love is (and isn’t). The episode also explores Bail’s battles for intellectual openness in psychoanalysis and his insistence on women’s equal place at the table. It’s a tender, candid look at the man, the method, and the marriage that sparked this podcast—and an invitation to look within.

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Hello,
I'm Cynthia Marks, and I head upthe Holistic Psychoanalysis Foundation,
established by my latehusband, Doctor Bernard Bail.
Welcome to And Now Love.
Today we have the fabulousdoctor Loren Weiner here.
And we know all about youand what a treasure

(00:24):
you are in terms of this workand what a treasure you are to our world.
And today we're going to talkmore about Doctor Bernard Bail,
what I know about himfrom the other side of the door.
Let's say behind the scenes.
Behind the scenes. That's right.
We're going to turn the tablesa little bit today.

(00:45):
A little bit, but only because it'sanother way of sharing our message.
Yeah, it's very helpful to sort ofsee who the man was that had these ideas
and to seehe is also a regular human being,
and his life experience completely shaped

(01:07):
how he thought about the psyche,
how he thought about human beings.
You have some interesting storiesand you can add
some of well, at least for me,I knew him in a professional capacity.
I have questions, I
there are things that I'm curious aboutin terms of how he lived his life.

(01:28):
How did his workfind its way into his life?
How did it inform it?
And you might know those answers.
I have a little bit of information, right?
So anyway, I thought what we could dois maybe give a little background
so that people understand
how you even came to know himand to be with him.

(01:50):
Hopefullywhat we can share is how you came to
want to do this
podcast, because at the end of the day,this is sort of a love letter to him.
In addition to really believingin his message separate from him, right?
That that this will continue onwithout him.
But but for you,there's this beautiful link back to him.

(02:12):
Of course there is, there is.
And it is exactly as you describe.
It's because of the immense loveI feel for him and felt for him,
and the transformation that occurredbecause of my relationship with him.
And one of the last thingshe shared with me

(02:32):
was, my darling,if you can carry this work on
and move it forward in some fashion,whatever that is unknown to me
at the time, unknown to him,he said, please do it.
But if it's not in your realm,
I love you still a million times over.

(02:53):
And that was such a comfortable message.
So take it forward.
If it if it fitsand if not, it, there's nothing.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Yeah, yeah.You don't have to do this. Yeah.
Only onlyif it makes sense in your life. Yeah.
And it does.
And I voraciously want to do this. Okay.

(03:13):
So if we could, you know, let's go backsince we're always talking about
if you want to understand something,go back to the beginning.
So let's go back to the beginning.
Maybe you would share a bitabout how you came to know him
and what it was like to think aboutentering into relationship with him.

(03:33):
Yes, I would love to.
And some of this I may have shared before,but not in such a concise package here.
Yeah.
So I met Bernard because he hired me
to be his interior designer,
and I was referred to himby a mutual friend.
And she called me and she said,I've given your name to this gentleman.

(03:56):
And let me tellyou a little bit about him.
First of all, he's 92.
And I thought, wow, wow.
Who at 92wants, needs an interior designer?
Doesn'the have everything he ever asked for?
Ends up? No.
So I had these weird expectations.

(04:16):
I was going to find this manin kind of a beat up terrycloth robe
and some slippers, shuffling aroundand needing a new kind of recliner
or something.
I got to the front doorand here was this very handsome.
Well dressed man, and he invited me in.
And there was nothingless than proper about this.

(04:39):
And just looking at himthe very first time, looking in his eyes,
I was already taken aback, but I didn'teven really think about it so much.
It was just sort of a
and we walked around his apartment,which was already pretty beautiful,
amazing amounts of art,and we went from image to image

(05:00):
and he said,what do you think about this one?
What do you think about that one?
I didn't knowif this is some sort of strange interview
or if he was really interested.
He was really interested.
Part of what I felt or shared was alreadyimportant to him, unbeknownst to me.
So we continued this relationship,this professional relationship,

(05:24):
because he did hire meand we would get together on his days off
on Fridays, not every Friday,but the occasional Friday.
And I knew nothing about this man
other than he was somehow important.
And he was a psychoanalyst.
And for me, that was a very big word.
And I was living my life.
I was plodding along.

(05:46):
My life was my life.
I didn't have any idea that it could beany different than what it was
decade after decade.
Thinking I was growing, becoming smarter,all those things aging.
I began to be supercurious about this man.
We started to go to lunch togetherand and I remember thinking,
what do I talk about with him?

(06:08):
He's so big, I can already tellhe's like this Renaissance guy.
He knows so much about so much.
Of course, he is 92.
Yeah.
So he's had a lot of time to learneverything that he wants to learn. But
he was thirsty constantly for information
for knowledge, for for connections.

(06:29):
I say that now.I didn't know that then. Yeah.
So I thought, well, I know he'sgot something to do with dreams.
Maybe I could spark a conversation.
I had a dreamjust the night before our lunch,
so I thought, you know,what the hell, I'll share it.
I'm going to share that dream.
Yeah. Please do so in the dream.
We're both very well dressed.
I was in my dreamtrying to match his sophistication.

(06:51):
I had heels and a nice suit,and we were walking out of a synagogue.
We're both Jewish, and we're walking downthe steps toward the street,
and I take his arm because he is 92and he's frail,
and his eyesight's not so great in realityand in the dream.
And as we're walking and we're chatting,somehow he falls

(07:15):
and my heart starts to pound in the dream.
And I'm saying,oh my gosh, how could I let this happen?
How could I let this happen?
I had taken the arm of this manand now he's fallen.
And people started to come to usand I'm looking around for help.
Do I need to call 911?
And people are swarming in and I finallysay, back off, everybody back off.

(07:37):
I've got this.
You're not going to help. I've got it.
And then this man Bernard
somehow becomes an iguana or a chameleon.
It was a chameleonbecause he could change colors.
And then a parrot, a giant parrot
flies out of the sky and startstrying to take him from me.

(07:57):
And I'm swatting the parrot away,and it's awful.
And I feel so responsiblefor this whole thing.
And then I wake up.
I want to hear what you think.
Right?
Well, when I hear a dreamlike that, I mean, you know,
it's interesting to hear it.
Knowing the story of what happened,I have to lay that out.
But I would say,and when he heard this, I'm guessing

(08:18):
that maybe a little smile came to his facebecause what you were saying
is, oh, here we are leaving the synagoguearm and arm.
We've married,you know, you come down the steps.
Yeah.
And I think you're saying he fell for you.
You already unconsciously knewthat he had completely fallen for you

(08:38):
and that you were goingto take care of him.
And that was very unconscious.
And yeah, at face value,I was saying to myself,
why did you let this person fall?
You know, how what kind of.
Right. Friend or love are you?
Right?
Exceptthis is the kind of fall you can't stop.
This is an internal emotional fall.

(09:00):
He fell in love. He's 92. You were not.
Not even close to 92.
36 years. Younger, 36 years younger.
And you know,that's going to shock a lot of people.
Yeah.
And for me it was like, oh really?
This this is not even a possibility.
In fact it's impossible. Impossible.
And those may be some of the voices,both external and internal, you're

(09:24):
trying to keep out of it and for yourselfso that you can do what you feel here.
And I would say thereclearly is sort of a sense of,
oh, there's a role here for me as well.
You know, he's not just going to bethis man that I love, which he was,
but also there's a careI'm going to give him.

(09:45):
And he needs that. He did.
And but it went against every little grainin my body
to think that I could actually havea relationship with this man, regardless
of what I was feeling. Right.
But your dream, so interesting,and I think it's so nice
that you remember that dreamthat that sort of is at the beginning.

(10:07):
And he heardand I'm sure it sort of laughed
because I'm guessing he would have known,we will marry.
We're going to walk down the stepstogether.
He didtell me that later. Yeah, that I knew
that you were in love with me. Yes.
And when he said that to me, I said, oh,you couldn't do that absolutely.
Well. And what you didn't know.But you could have said him. Yeah.

(10:29):
And I knew you were in love with me.
You had fallen for me.
And I was going to also just get everybodyelse out of the way and be with you.
Yeah, well,and during this time where I was.
Yes. Knowing myself.
Yes. No. Yes. No. Yeah.
My profession is onethat takes me all over.
I'm in my car going from this clientto that client to this client.

(10:50):
And so if that's my alonetime is in the car.
And I used to find myselfthinking about him,
not intending to think about him, buthe was constantly popping up in my head
and in my heart.
And I would even say out loud,what is going on?
This is not okay.
I can't be thinking about this man.
Why won't he get out of my head?

(11:11):
That went on and on and on,
and I finally had to figure outhow to come to terms with it.
He knew that too, because
he knew I was in love with him.
Well, I'd already heard the dream. Yeah.
So, I mean, I'm sure he could feel it,but it's so interesting,
right, that this dream just lays it out.
If you heard that,I hear you fretting about it.

(11:32):
And I would say, well, okay,but you already know.
Yeah, go ahead and fret.
Right. Right.
Because you could see it,but still I could not see it.
I and he never even shared with methe interpretation.
He just listened to that and he smiled.
And there was quitethe glimmer in his eye.
And from then on,

(11:52):
you know, he made this a pointto be together, to spend time together.
And he started to ask meabout other dreams.
And I thought, well, okay,I'll tell you more.
I don't know whythis is so much fun for you
because I really, really didn'tget the whole gist of the thing,
and it took me spending a lot of timetalking about dreams with him

(12:14):
to sort of finally start to see thatthere was something meaningful.
And maybe this isn't the pathwe wanted to go down yet, but
it is only because of that, because of me
finally saying, okay, take a deep breath.
Let go of your preconceived notionsabout what
dreams are or aren't.

(12:36):
Let go of your preconceived notionsabout what a proper relationship is.
Just go there for a little bitand see what happens.
Just go there.
And I mean, I have goose bumps,but the dreams I shared with him
then became the tools by which
I was ableto figure out how to live my own life,

(12:58):
rather than the life that was full ofthe imprints I'd been delivered.
I had been living a lifeunder so many falsehoods,
and I had no idea they were false.
I bought into them,you know, they were as sturdy as marble.
They were the truth.
And it took some chipping away

(13:19):
for me to finally say,wow, what I believed,
what I thought was love,what I thought was whatever.
I thought I was going down the wrong path
from the very beginning,which created scenarios
where I kept looking for thingsto keep me on that wrong path.
So the relationshipsI found myself in were very reminiscent

(13:42):
of the first relationshipsthat were already on the wrong path.
I don't know,I had this one and a 2 million opportunity
to come across this man, Bernard,to have this right.
I can't even put it into words.
But it was remarkable.
And to really feel like a different humanbeing with a different path

(14:04):
that hits right here in my heart,right here in my heart.
I know.
Yet you felt that. Yeah.
Here you are.
You don't know anything about dreams.
I mean, most people don't think about themall that much.
And I didn't give them credence,like most of us. Yes.
And and he I mean, I I'm going to sayhe cheated a little bit

(14:25):
because he
you happened to tell him this dreamand it happened to reveal everything.
So he sort of knows the storyand how it ends.
But why did that happen?
Why did you choose to share?
You have to tell us.
I think that there's it's because there's
an interconnectednessthat runs amongst all of us.
And, you know, call that love, callthat the divine Spirit.

(14:48):
I couldn't help but tell him that dream.
And because he is who he is, he couldn'thelp but understand the message.
Yeah.
And that dream was about the two of us.
It was about the two of us.
It wasn't about me learning something elseabout my life.
It was about the two of us.
And so did he.
See that?
Like,I see this is what we're going to come to.

(15:09):
But Cynthia is so far awayfrom understanding that,
you know, as a psychoanalystwhen he's treating his patients,
his methodology says,I, I've got to let my patients come
to their own understanding of their livesand their feelings.
Right? Yes.
And that's why he wouldn'ttell you what the dream meant.
So it could take forever.
And here we were at the end of his life.

(15:30):
We didn't have a lot of time left.
He's up against hoping thatthat you decide to shoe
all these voices that might interfere
come between you right away.
And all he could dowas give me the gift of patience.
Yeah.
Which was must've been so hard for him.

(15:51):
And because it was so scary for me,it was jumping off
a cliff, and I didn't knowwhat was going to happen.
At the bottom of that cliff.
I stood back for a very long time,
and I let those voices keep talking to meand saying, you know what?
Really? You're going to do this?
I don't think so.

(16:11):
I mean, you'renot gonna have any more clients.
Your kids aren't going to like you.
Society's going to shun you. What?
What are you doing?And did any of that happen?
Some of it probably, I don't care.
My kids didn't dismiss me.
I didn't lose.
Yeah, your business is and gone because.
But the people in the world who think it'syucky or disagree or think it's wrong.

(16:33):
Okay.
Yeah, but I think, you know,as you're saying, it's
that was the bigger feeling inside.
It was. Right. Those are the voices.
So you go, oh, all these people, all thesethings come and they might intrude.
And I have to keep them. Yeah.
And there was my father who passed away,but he's still walking around in my head

(16:56):
in a big way.
It's hard to dismiss.
This is how it starts. Yeah.
He may have known how you felt,but the dream also reveals him.
Right? He falls.
So in case he wasn't sure, though,I'm sure at that point he probably was.
There it is. Right.
He had fallen for you.
He had said that maybe eight years orso before we met.

(17:20):
He had met with
someone who was sharing information,probably in.
Like a psychic, sort of. Okay.
And he was kind of ready to be
done, you know, with trying to find love.
I'm too old.
It's not going to happen.
Who's going to want me?

(17:41):
And that person said, stop,there's one more.
There's one more chance for you.
And he said, when he opened the door andI was there, is that that's that's her.
Maybe it's true.
Maybe it's not.But it made me feel really good.
I think if he said it, he felt so.
Yeah.
He wasn't one to share anythingbut his own truth.

(18:03):
Yeah.
Yeah, I don't thinkI don't think he would do that. No.
So and even let's say
sometimes he would share his own truthsmuch to his own.
Yeah.
That's the other piece of this, right.
That you got to see a side of him.
I mean, there's a side that understandsall of this is so deep, is so wise.
And and at 92 has also amassed,

(18:26):
you know, just a lot of knowledgeand experience about the in the world.
And also you got to see thathe's still a human being.
And you know, I,I think he would make mention sometimes
of, you know, still having nightmaresrelated to the war.
Okay.
So tell me a little because obviouslyhis great interest is dream,

(18:46):
you know, listening to dreams, he'stalking about his own dreams.
He's thinking about himself in that way.
You enter into this relationship,
you start talkingabout dreams and sharing.
And so what is this like,
you know, at the breakfast tableor where is this happening?
I know, so as I said, when I first methim, I gave dreams no credence really.

(19:08):
There's just sort of cute little thingsthat happen during the night. And
because
dreams were his passion, you know,that's what he wanted to talk about.
I get that,and I quickly became interested,
you know,he would share some of his dreams with me.
And in fact, when we would travel,we would find ourselves

(19:29):
talking to each other about our dreamsand about our lives.
And was there any sort of connectionbetween our lives and our dreams?
I mean, clearlyhe knew from his life's work,
but we would find ourselves outfor breakfast and hours later
people are coming in for lunchand we're still there
sharing our conversationsabout our dreams.

(19:51):
I mean, he never really analyzed me.
We were just a couple in loveand we both ended up having a passion
for dreams and a fascination,and they were puzzles for both of us.
I love to talk about his dreams with him,even in our waking life.
Always a little tenuous somehow,even though he really knew

(20:15):
I loved him,he also felt like I might cut that tie.
He was very cute.
I don't think he thought it was cute,but we would.
We would argue totally. Okay. Yeah,
that was fine.
I mean, I had the best arguments with himand we would be kind of
on an equal footing.
And sometimes he would say,
I think we should just get a divorce,

(20:38):
because I think he was afraid that I.
Would get a divorce.
And I would look at him and I would say,that is just not happening.
It's not happening.
You've got to stop talking like that.
And he would smile.
He always put himself in a positionof having to protect himself,
even like during the war,he never knew what he was up against.

(20:59):
He never knew whether the enemy was going
to treat him fairly or kill him.
I mean, he had so many momentsduring the war,
he had nothing that he could do
except rely on the support of the enemy.
What a wild thing to have to think about.
I'm just going to add,because people listening may not know,

(21:23):
he was a lead radar navigator in WorldWar two, would often just fly over enemy
lines into Germany, and was shot downand taken prisoner of war.
Yes. Thank you so much.
That helps so wrote a book about it,Armed Guards Flute, which talks
about an incredibly importanttransformational period in his life

(21:44):
where he came up against his ownunderstandings of, I think, love
and all of the ideas the young man hadwherever the arrogance or narcissism was.
But this began to show hima different side of things.
Obviously,you know, you're you're shot down
and you are completely relianton the enemy to either kill you or not.

(22:07):
Yes. And he, you know, sort ofhad the fear almost day in and day
out is what they're doing for megoing to kill me or save me?
They're injecting me with something.
Is that poison or is it a vaccinethat's going to help me?
Is are they helping meget rid of my fever or increase the fever?
He was at a train station beingtransported, I think, to this hospital

(22:31):
where he ended up and stood guardand everyone was screaming at him.
The people could see thathe was an American and talking
about killing him kill, kill, kill him.
And a German officer came overand stopped the crowd
and said, everybody stop.

(22:53):
This is not okay.
Let this man get on the train.
And he was very forceful.
I think he had a gun or something.
And and that was a big moment for Bernard,
you know, sort ofthey're on opposite sides of this war.
They're supposed to hate each other.
And this man couldn't helpbut come from a place of compassion.

(23:16):
That man saved his life at that moment.
And there were several other incidentsduring the war
that were very, very similar.
And that was definitely food for thought.
Definitely created a shift for Bernard inhow he perceived the world and in fact,
what he intended to dowhen he was done with his service

(23:37):
was to become a high school teacherin Philadelphia.
But by the time the war was over,and he'd had all of these experiences
that he had relative to kinship, to fear,to love, to war, love of all kinds,
he said, I've got to do somethingto make this stop.
And I don't think he was thinkingthat consciously, just unconsciously,

(24:01):
war cannot exist.
It serves no purpose.
That's what he came to.
I'm going to do something to stop this.
And he became a doctor and he
became a psychoanalyst,and he came up with his theory.
And if we can
figure out how to address the waror the chaos

(24:23):
that we hold inside,we can bring that forward into the world.
As you and I were speaking earlier,you can't treat
what we see on the outsidewithout fixing the bits on the inside.
If we don't know how to operate from truelove and empathy, if we don't know that
we can't do that.
We're just all,you know, bouncing off the ceiling.

(24:46):
Yeah, I think thatthat was a very important piece
for him is for millennia,you know, empires come and go.
They all falland trying to come up with the right
political system,the right way to set up a society.
I think my sense was from him.
You won't ever do itbecause there's too much

(25:10):
chaos, there's too much war inside.
And until human beingsgo through a transformation
and you have to do thatby looking inside of yourself,
seeing what's in there, right then
you become ready to even imagine
create a system that might actually workfor the people, all of them.

(25:30):
Somehow you end upwhere you you end up with a separation.
In a way.
You end up with the parents, with all thepower and the kids who have none.
Right? It's a replica. Yeah.
And when he would later say,and what goes on in utero
the way the unconsciousof the mother bombards the fetus.

(25:51):
And as she.
It's not just her unconscious,she sweeps in the father
and other people in the family.
And so all the fetuses hitwith all of these unconscious,
unknown, unprocessed partsthat are detrimental.
But then that baby comes out,many things happen.

(26:14):
And one of the thingsis all of that gets repeated.
So there's the war, right?
The war is really internal anyway.
It's just going to be acted outexternally.
So that tells you from my point of view,don't try to fix it externally.
Don't waste.
I mean, it's not that you're wasting time.

(26:34):
You don't want people to kill each other,but if you really want to stop it,
all of the negotiating in the worldwon't do it
because you have to have everybodygo inside.
Now, that doesn't meanthere aren't very smart and compassionate,
loving people in the world.
They may come up with really good ideas,
but if you have too many people like wedo, that are too involved

(26:58):
in the internal war,that will destroy all the good ideas.
So you have to get the whole groupto a new place.
That internal war is all that
those individuals who are dealing withthat internal war know.
That is allthey can bring to the table, right? Love?
It is stronger than whateverlove may or may not be there.

(27:20):
I mean, if it's not there, it's not there.
But if it is there, it'sstill being overtaken by the war side.
So that's a problem.
But everybody's paddling upstreamtoo hard.
Change the way we do it.
Stop fixing it out there.
Everybody look inside.
Get some understandingof your internal world.
See if you can learn to love em.

(27:42):
And if it's kind of ahard thing to buy into.
What do you mean?
I'm looking at the world, and there's chaos and war, and that's inside of me. No,
just try it.
Just try it. Just think about it.
Just let go. Just see.
Have a look at what's going on. And you.
What is that?
I mean, I think it's it's worthconsidering.

(28:04):
Definitely.
And by the way, it doesn't mean thatwe shouldn't be attending
to the things in our outside world.
We still.
You know, still live in it, right?
This is our waking life.This is our world.
But here, here's where you have to goif you want to change it.
And we have to speak to the thingsthat we know are
healthy, are loving the truth.

(28:28):
I mean, I think we have to havethose voices inside and outside.
Yeah, I think absolutely.
So you who know nothing about
dreams are not particularly focusedon the internal world.
It is there. It is part of you.
But it's getting no special placeright at this point.

(28:48):
And you meet the man who is all focusedon the internal world
every day, all day, sort of swimmingin the unconscious of his patients.
And what does this feel like?
I was so excited to talk about dreamswith Bernard, and at a moment
in our relationship, we had little timeto spend with each other.
We were living in separate households.

(29:09):
We were both working hardand he would say,
tell me about your dream in the morningwhen I was driving to work.
And I would say to him the same thingand he'd say, okay,
let's think about it and let's catch upwith each other at the end of the day.
And we would both talk furtherabout those dreams.
He wasn't analyzing me.

(29:30):
We were sharing a conversation about this
thing that we were both so curious about.
And did you feel like hearing his dreams
gave you this windowin, you know, just the way
he might phrase things in a dreamor the images that might emerge?
Yes. I loved listening

(29:52):
to what he had to say about his dreams,what is what he was dreaming about.
And, you know,I came to know enough about him, Bernard.
The man, the stories of his past,what he felt, what his fears were,
that I could kind of go along with him
in what he was seeing in his own dreamsand think, wow, that's so cool.

(30:16):
Look at this.
There's all this informationthat's still coming up for him. Yes.
Right. And I can see connections
to all of the storiesabout his life, about his feelings.
So it was intriguing.
You know,a lot of people get to have conversation
about their dreamswhen they wake up in the morning.

(30:37):
When you walk in and see your friend oryou get to school and, you know, sometimes
you'll hear kids say,oh, you were in my dream last night.
People get excited about this.
So I think there can bea lot of talk about dreams.
There is a difference between sort of
just thinking about a dreamand doing a work of analyzing a dream

(30:58):
where you're really goingthrough each piece, thinking about it
and putting a story together thathopefully gives you some emotional truth.
That's just a more formal process, really.
At the end of the day,
there isn't all that much differencebetween talking about them
except this formal process,

(31:19):
but just talking about your dreams
can also be so informativeand it might connect people.
Now you may also be telling people thingsyou don't know you are.
I go back to your first dream with him,where you didn't realize you were telling
both of youthat you were going to get married
and you were going to take care of himand everybody else.

(31:40):
Go away. Yes, I have no idea. Right.
And most of the timewe have no idea what we are sharing.
A lot of my friends always laughbecause we go out.
You don't go,
wait before you tell me your dreambecause you know,
people just talking about youjust have no idea what you're telling me.
I'm just letting you know.
But I will happily listen, you know?
But you just.
People don't know that it reveals so much.

(32:02):
And just by sharing our dreams.
Right. And so.
And I think really, maybe for everybody,if we could all get used to this idea
that we could understandsomebody close to us
or even not close to usby getting the deepest
communications from them,might be a very interesting world.

(32:23):
Definitely something to open our eyes to.
I wouldn't have had a podcastthat I felt passionate about, say, 15
or 20 years ago,but if you had said to me,
I want you to have this podcast about,
I don't know, popcorn and cheeseor whatever,
I would have said, no way, no way, don'tput one of these things in front of me.
I won't even be able to speak.

(32:46):
Even in my everyday routine.
I was very,very quiet, very, very reserved.
I felt like I didn't have
as much of a placeto speak from as most people.
I felt very muchlike I needed to stand in the background.
I totally know why that's my imprintall over the place,

(33:08):
but I had no other way to be.
I had no knowledgethat I could be anything else.
I had some what I thoughtwere really good ideas about things
or things that I wantedto contribute to a conversation,
but I was more like,I don't want to hear what you have to say.
And so I just kept it to myself.
I've had peoplewho have been my friends for a long time,

(33:30):
but what a weird relationship, becausehere I was just a little bit opening up
and they are over here trying to get me,but they somehow still had a connection.
And since this has all happened to me,
those friends have said to meblatantly, I knew you were in there.
I it's so great to hear your voice.

(33:50):
I've always liked you, but man, this isthis is great.
Now we can have a partnership as friends.
This is so part of his theory
in a way, is is wanting peopleto find their voice, listening
and taking what someone says as important.

(34:11):
I think he listens to all of his patientsand what they say is important.
There is a person therewho thinks that you are
an important person, and I thinkespecially here, that you're a woman.
And what you say,as you said, when he wants to hear,
well what do you think about the art.
And he really wanted to know.He did. Right.

(34:32):
He wasn't just making small talk,he wanted to hear.
Who are you.
What do you see in this.
And my instinct waswhat kind of weird interview is this?
He certainly doesn't want to knowwhat I think. As a professional.
I laugh a little because it is a littlereminiscent of a Rorschach or something.
Where we go.Where do you see this painting? You know?
Yeah.
So there is probably some of that,but I think he can't help but do that

(34:54):
because there's a curiosityfor all of us in this field.
You know, part of what your
what keeps you going is you're interested,you're curious.
You know, I want to knowwho is this person sitting across from me,
but and and especially his interest
in hearing what women have to say.

(35:14):
We see this in the theory.
Very important to give womena seat at the table,
that there should be an equality.
And there was and and that was such a gift
because to be on that equal footing,
to be loved on the same plane that I think
only there's only one way for truelove to exist.

(35:38):
You need to be on the same plane.
This there's no overpowering.
And that gave me all the space,
all the space to be who I really am.
Once I figured out who I really was.
Yeah, yeah, right.
But for your voice to emerge. Yeah.
And we could talk about 1,000,007things all day

(35:59):
long,and nobody was ever stepping on anybody.
I mean, like I said, we had our arguments.
They were fine.
It didn't mean that we were chipping awayat that love at all.
It built the love in a way,and a so many times even going through it
and certainly looking back,how did I get to this?

(36:21):
How how did I get this fabulous gift?
And to now know what real love isand to take it
outside of that relationshipthat I had with Bernard and
and be able to have it elsewhere,with friends, with family,
romantically, is just, again,the biggest gift.
Yeah.
And very interesting what you saythat even he was afraid of love, right?

(36:46):
I mean, you know, for all of his big dreamfor the world, that's
why the podcast is called,what it's called is love.
You know that.
He says,we tried everything else in the world.
How about love?
And now real love.
Not not lip service to love, right?
Really behaving in loving ways andand loving yourself.

(37:09):
So you have to love yourselfso that you can love.
So interesting that you know, evenhe human being that he is right,
you know, would have moments where it's,I'm so afraid I'm going to lose you.
Maybe I'll just leave first.
Yes, yes, you could see.
I could see thatthat even I could see that.
Yes. As a matter of,you know, self-protection.

(37:32):
And looking back and thinking about him
in our conversationsand what he felt about his mother.
And yeah,the way his upbringing informed him.
He talked about it,that he had two parents
who weren't in love,arranged marriage, and.
And his mom was pretty pissed offabout. That.

(37:53):
His mom was not happy.
She had to leave a boyfriend
that she really likedand come to a new country and marry.
Someone didn't feel it was a great match.
Very unsatisfying to her and I think so.
Informs his thinking about human beings.
One that love is very importantand that if you want a happy world,

(38:19):
you have to make sure that the peoplewho carry all the children are happy.
Because I think he knew he experienced it,
that his mother wasn't happy,had headaches often.
Well, her head hurt.
This was not what she had imaginedfor her life.
And yet here she was.
And she had expectations for her children

(38:41):
that they could not really live up to,and which I'm curious about.
She was always,you know, looking to them to some sort of
to satisfy something inside of her.
And they could not do that.
Even if they did do it,she still wouldn't find the satisfaction.
It wasn't Bauer. That's right.

(39:02):
Yeah.
And so Bernardalways felt like he was never enough, that
whatever he did, she wasn'tgoing to be able to completely love him
because he'd always sort ofmissed the mark for her.
Who can't relate to that? Right.
That I think he started from a placeof going, oh my gosh, I'm watching.
My my mother is not happy.
My father's probably not happy either

(39:23):
because, you know,and they're arguing all the time.
So this is a housewhere I think he had to go find
other things that would nurture him.
And he did.
He did without really,I think, even understanding at face value
what they were at the time.
Even as a kid in elementary school,he used to

(39:47):
run around the corner and down the block,
and he found himself at the synagoguefor Sunday school
and and they would be talkingabout stories from the Bible.
And he wasn't really a memberof the class, but somehow he sat in.
Back in.
And he was enchanted,

(40:09):
intrigued,and he went back and back for more,
you know, Joseph and the Dreamcoat.
And why did that stick with him?
And and he didn't tell anybodythat he was doing this.
And it wasn't about being Jewish.
It was just about this fabulous source.
And he took that with him.

(40:31):
Yeah.
I think when you look, you know,you read the books,
you see the story of the war,you can see where
spirit was sortof tapping him on the shoulder. Yes.
Then that it emergesas such an important part of his theory
that I think it was also,you know, saving him.
He had that experience.

(40:52):
It was saving himfrom this really unhappy home life.
But he
didn't realize all of thatuntil he realized all of that.
Yeah.
I don't know that he even realized thatuntil he had written the book.
Said what.
You know, 80 right.
When he started to look back onwhat his life
meant, how did all the parts and piecesfit together?

(41:13):
I mean, he had that experienceof being so enchanted
by these sort of spiritual stories,and he had his experiences
in the war where here he isthe lead navigator
leading this plane full of comradesto what he can't see.
In one example,there's there's no heading.

(41:33):
They have no way of figuring outwhere they're going.
No way.
And remaining calmso that none of the other men
on the flight understood the despair.
And somehow finding his way,
somehow finding his way, all of a sudden.
He knew he had spirit, talked to himand gave him the heading. Yep.

(41:55):
But he didn't know thatat the time. Right.
But obviously that made a mark on him.
And he he managed.
So he had all of those moments and,and I think it was
when he felt this great desperation
because he wasn't feeling
personally that he was making any headwayin his own life.

(42:16):
He had a full roster of patients.
They were discussing dreams.
They were theyhe was helping people become healthier.
But yet he didn't feel likehe had all the tools he needed.
And he found in his own therapythat the tools weren't there.
He had these wonderful conversationswith these fabulous,

(42:37):
renowned and lists,and he adored his time with them.
And he learned so much.
But it was, in his opinion,mostly intellectual.
They didn't ask him how he feltabout experiences in the war.
They didn't ask him about the troublehe was feeling in his love life.
They it was intellectual, he said.

(42:59):
And and that worried him.
He said, how am I going to give what
I need to give to my patientsuntil I figure out what I need?
And and that was scaryand depressing and difficult.
He had to sort of unwind everything,undo everything.
Start with a blank page.

(43:19):
I don't know, I think that maybea connection to spirit too.
Well, and I think it is, you know,sort of another echo, right?
Okay.
I can't find what I need at home.
I have to go look someplace else.
This is despairing.
But then I find something that gives mea glimmer of hope.
That right.
You really feel is excitingor has meaning later.

(43:40):
You're in the war and you think,oh my gosh, how am I?
I am terrified, I don't know ahead.
I don't know where to send the plane
and all these people I'm responsible for.
And a message comes and pullsyou out of the the darkness.
And I think when he was despairinglater, yet
professionally, do I kill myself,you know.

(44:02):
Really what?
What do I do?
Where where is this going?
I don't, you know. And you are.
You have no direction.
You're unmoored, you know, yet again.
And that was a big consideration for him.Do I just do myself.
And do I just do myself in?
And people go, oh my gosh, how is he.
He's saying that.
But yes, he, he I think really went there.

(44:23):
Doesn't look like it on the surface.
And if you met him years later,you would go, oh,
well this man would neverhe must not know anything about that.
But I think he did.
And the feeling, too, of consideringthat strongly considering that.
Yeah. Stuck to him
even in our time together.
I could see that for him to say,

(44:45):
I got to that kind of depth of wherethat kind of vacancy
in me, in my soul,where I thought that was my best option.
That's that's big.
And you, you can for him.
He could totally feelhow others could get there, too.
Yes, I think that's that's the importantpiece that all of these things inform

(45:08):
how you start to think about
what is really going oninside of a human being,
what forms you, what shapeshow you think and feel,
and how he then brings in early life.
I mean, not that other theoristshaven't done this, but for him personally
to make this particular wayof thinking his theory,

(45:32):
and that spirit pulls himout of the darkness each time.
And I think he wanted that for peopleright?
That they shouldn't they should know thatand and have that comfort.
Right.
You know, that's another piece of love.
It is thatI think he really wanted people to have.
And once he came to that knowledge

(45:53):
to really believe that spirit was there,he 100%
believe that spirit is there for everyone,including me,
the little Miss Denyerthat became part of his work.
It truly did.
I imagine you saw that. Yes.
So I met him late.
I mean, he was probably in his 70s.

(46:15):
These pieces were already there.
Yeah, when I met him. Yes.
So I didn't know the before, you know.
I didn't know when he was wrestlingwith traditional psychoanalysis
when he was wrestling with a Freudianparadigm or a clinician paradigm.
And wrestling with his peers.
Wrestling with his peers and fightingfor free speech and and free thought.

(46:35):
One of the things that shaped that middleperiod of his life was,
I think we should be able to study thingsbesides Freud,
and having a whole institute,a whole group of people
and, and the Psychoanalytic Associationsay, well, we don't agree.
Okay.
He held on.
Interestingly. Right.

(46:56):
He knew what it was to to go to war.
And in a way he did have a war with them.
And I think it was probablya very painful, disappointing,
I mean, soul crushing war to have toto say
all I'm asking foris that we can bring other theorists in.
Are we so dogmatic that we don't allowa new thought to enter?

(47:18):
And I'm not even surethat they fully heard him on that.
I think they were so fearfulof what it was.
He was teaching,professing that it was somehow either,
you know, we have to let Doctor Bailintroduce his work or not.
And he kept saying, butit's not just about me, it's not my work.
It's about as you're saying.

(47:38):
Let's think about the possibilityof some other theories.
Let's let's open the door.
Let's let people talk about these things.
And they didn't even reallyI don't think they heard that so.
Well,
it was more we just have to shut this oneman down.
Right.
And there's a lawsuit.
You know, he filed suit there.
This is at great risk to his livelihood.

(48:01):
Would.Because if you are persona non grata,
that means your peers stopreferring to you.
You're not getting training cases. Right.
And so you could potentiallylose your entire livelihood.
And he stood his.
Ground but he stood his ground.
So people understand years later,what he was asking for is exactly
what happened.

(48:21):
Everything opened upand now people would go, what do you mean?
We were never able to study these people
because there's so many peoplebeing studied now.
All right, everybody, every theory is sortof can be looked at, you know.
So I think what he was asking forwas just ahead of his time.
But it, it also put himin a really interesting position

(48:45):
because it was sort of himagainst the world in what do you believe
both that pieceand that everything should be questioned
anew, that we don't just have to takewhat's handed to us, either knowledge
or our emotional experience,and have to live that out,
question everything, question,see what you feel about it.

(49:09):
And I think throughout the work
and and that hopefully lives on in
all of the people who are engaged in doingthat kind of work is
if I make an interpretationabout something,
I'm not laying the law down.
If it doesn't feel right,let's talk about it.
That doesn't hit you in the right spot.

(49:29):
You don't have a feeling about thator it feels wrong.
Let's explore it.
Which is so interesting because I rememberhaving these conversations
with Bernard, and how am I going to knowwhen it feels right?
I'm not sure I get that, and I butI'd keep going with him, keep going and
I remember that first moment
that I felt that feeling.

(49:53):
That feeling is almost like concrete.
It was real.
I felt it, I felt it, and once
I had that one momentand I was taken aback,
I'm just like, I'm all in.
Yeah, I get it, I get it.
And and that moment of feelingand how just that little bit took

(50:14):
17 notches out of my imprint.
Oh, I felt lighter.
I felt different already.
Yeah.
So I think that's what hopefully happens.
Somebody feels understood.
And sometimes feelings aren't thereor they're not there
in a way that serves your highest bestself.

(50:36):
Feelings may be there to push somethingaway or, but that getting to a place
where you're then able tooh yeah that feels right.
I can now distinguish that. Right.
I have an experience where I knowsomething feels correct
and it's going to feel correct to my mindand probably to my body.
You know people relax or they you'll hear,you can hear it, you can see it.

(50:59):
And then that's your baseline.
And then you know, right nowI have now I have a measuring stick.
Okay.
Sometimes you do have to work at dreams.
I think even when it's your theoryfor Doctor bail, you know, there
there were momentswhere I go over something.
Is it right? No, it's not right.
Okay, well, that's then then we.

(51:21):
Let's get it right or as close as we can.
That has to be part of it.
Because what you are creating,
hopefully, is not just a copy of yourselfis the therapist.
You want to help somebody becomea separate individual person
with their own feelingsfor what is right or not right
for that particular person's life,not what's right for my life right now.

(51:46):
Obviously,
we all should have things in commonthat are good for us and not good for us.
But personally, on the personal level,that person has to begin
to be ableto feel his or her own self and life.
And believe it or not, that doesn't happenall that often.

(52:06):
People, you know, they say,oh well, I trust my trust, my gut.
Fine.
And some people have gutsthat are trustable
and some people have guts that will sendyou, you know, North stars over there,
and they send you to the Southbecause the imprint and your history
and the way your feelings were
most likely not respected or given space

(52:30):
creates havoc in the system,
and often it is then sending youin all the wrong directions.
Well, even up until recentlyand I've shared this before,
my father's voices have been in my headfor every decision I had to make,
and there was a momentwhere I heard my father's voice

(52:50):
when I was deciding something, and I said,all right, let's wait here.
Wait a minute.
Why are you doing this? You know,
I don't need you in my headtelling me what to do.
Obviously, I put him there, right?
And I said, why don't you just.
Back pipe down? Yeah.
Never again.

(53:11):
There it is. Right.
And and chances are dadwas not going to make a decision for you.
Meaning you're just going along.
You know, we're talkingabout the dad's voice in your head
that's going towhat about this? And don't do that.
And why would you, you know, do this.
And that may make a good decision for him.
It may make a decision that keepsyou attached to him and living for him,

(53:34):
but it chances are that's not going to bethe right decision for you. Yes.
And freedom in your life.
In my life, for me,I am stronger than my dad.
I am stronger than my dad.
That's right. You.
You are the expert for your life. Yep.
He's not.
And go back to that dream.

(53:54):
You told us about the meeting.
I mean, that is even evident inthat dream, is
I'm going to have to shut a lot of voicesdown.
In order to find my way.
In order to find. My way. Yeah.
And in order to love this man. Yes.
That's right. And that was your path.
Path was together.
I am curious where if he talked to you.

(54:15):
I know he talked professionally about thisand it was all in his work, but
what are the dinner table conversationslike about where
the world is going.
So even before we, we're where we are
Bernard passed away almost five years ago,four and a half years ago.

(54:36):
He always said we talked about sortof the political climate
in the United States and around the world.
And we talked about how, how do we gethere, what's going to make it different.
And he said, it clearly has to geta lot worse before it gets better.
It clearly has to get worse.
Peoplehaven't been put to the ultimate test.

(54:59):
They still don't understandwhat's at stake.
They still don't understandwhat's at stake.
And the only way to repair
what's going onis to make people look inside.
And people have becomeso desperate for an answer that they're

(55:20):
open to looking everywhere for solutions.
And I'm beginningto see a glimpse of that.
People are desperate.
People are thinking, how?
How do I make a dent?
How do we change this?This is super scary.
It's not just scary in the United States.
It's scary everywhere.
And maybe I need to look at myself.

(55:42):
I if I think about the things I can dooutside of myself, I can.
And these are all valuable.
I can write a letter to my congressman,I can protest,
I can send a check to support something,things that I believe in.
But maybe I can also look inside myself.
Maybe there's something I need to learnabout the way the world operates,

(56:04):
but I can't learn thatuntil I know how I operate.
So that
he, as we said earlier,that was a big topic for us in that
what's going onoutside is happening inside
and we've got a long way to go beforewe figure out how to straighten it out.
And one of the things we want to dohere is like, put the pedal to the metal,
because we need to get busy with this.Looking at ourselves.

(56:26):
That's interesting to me because in a way,no matter what
one's political orientation is,
there seems to be a sense that it isn'tgoing right.
Political parties come and go,and my guys and your guys in, that's.
Almost the thread that connects us now.
Yes. It's not going.
Rightthat, that that's right, that's right.
So it's everywhere.

(56:48):
And it seems to point to the ideathat maybe this is an external
if everybody's feeling it and it isn'tright, you know, and it's global.
Yeah.
In a lot of ways maybe it's reallycalling on human beings to
get a
new way of thinking about these problems

(57:09):
and, and a new way of seeing ourselves,a new way of thinking about who we are
and what we might be capable of,not in the negative direction.
We see a lot of that.
What about in an expansive, elevating way?
And how do we get in touch with the loveand and spirit
and all of the thingsthat would nurture us and lift us up?

(57:33):
Where do we go? Well,we have to go inside.
And when you get to that placewhere you're really lifting yourself
up, you can't help but lift upthose around you.
Yes, I think that that's the beautifulpiece is you.
It emanates, right.
This impacts everything.
This is the ripplefrom the stone in the pond, if you will.

(57:56):
So when he said worse, did he, did he say.
Like how much time or. Well, how how bad?
I say that a little bit,knowing that I had asked him that lot.
Where do you see it going?
What do you think is going to happen?
His point was, you know,you really have to feel it.
The, the average person,I think we're seeing it right.

(58:17):
It's not just thatit has to be hard or uncomfortable.
It has to kind of push you in a waythat you haven't been pushed
before, where you feelyou might lose something.
And and maybe that makes everybodygo, wait, what are we doing?
What are we really doing? All right.
So what, we're going to arguewith each other.
And I'm on this teamand you're on that team.

(58:37):
And and and what? Blow the planetup. Right.
Because we can't nowfigure out a way to talk to each other.
Doesn't seem to make sense.
His feelingwas that we each had to really,
almost tangibly feellike we were losing something. Yes.
And to the pointwhere you feel like you have no control

(59:02):
or you see thatfear is just if you're not afraid.
Now is just around the cornerand when you start to feel this kind of
panic, like maybe there's
no turning back,we've reached the perfect storm.
I think he sees us stepping in

(59:25):
before we're completely out of control.
Okay, so like,where do these come to the edge?
Yeah.
Now, I don't know if we can startright now as individuals.
With the edge.
Helping ourselves figure out who we are
as sort of helping that processalong more quickly.

(59:46):
But I sure want to give it a try.
At the very least,it puts an idea out there.
Yeah, I sure want to come at this world
from truth, love, empathy.
I mean, for me,that's the only way to make a difference.
And really seeing where even if you thinkyou are using those, right.

(01:00:07):
Because I think a lot of people say,
but I'm very loving, you know,I love all kinds of things.
What we have to be looking atis, are your actions loving
and what are your dreams?
Show us. Right.
Because the unconscious,the dream will show us.
Well, wait a minute.
Do you think it's loving?
And maybe it isn't.

(01:00:29):
And I think that goesfor a lot of our politicians for years.
This isn't right now,only this is historically.
And and look back at all
sorts of societies, you know,different countries, different empires.
And were people really being taken care of

(01:00:50):
in a loving wayby the people who were in charge?
Those people with good intentions.
With good intentions, and many who maysay, well, I'm doing this for the country.
I'm doing this, sure.
But all of those people have an imprint.
All of those people are carryingunprocessed,
virulent parts that. May.

(01:01:13):
Intrude upon, even if you can have it,
the idea of loving,the idea of taking good care of people.
So part of
this is untangling, giving peoplejust the idea that, okay, wait a minute.
Sometimes, even if intellectuallyyou think you're on the right
path, we really have to check that.
We all have to check it within ourselvesand go, well, wait a minute, let's

(01:01:36):
check this within ourselves and see,is this really loving?
Am I really doing the best for myself andthose around me and the society at large?
And have you figured outwhat love really feels like?
That's it. And what is love really?
I mean, love is one of those thingsthat is just given so much lip service.

(01:01:59):
I'm loving, I love you,I do this well, okay,
but the what behaviors go with that?
You say that and then what right.
You know, do you just say,I love you and don't bother me?
Let me keep doing what I'm doing.
Don't intrude on it.
I'm I don't have to change at all.
And in fact, saying those wordsmight get me off the hook for a while.
I do a lot of things right.You won't blame me.

(01:02:21):
I don't have to be responsiblefor anything.
Just know I love you, I love you.
That's right.
And I think that is ubiquitous, you know?
But then it's all right.
Wait a minute.But are you behaving in a loving way?
Do you even know what that is?
Were you ever treated with love?
Really?
And I think a lot of most peoplemight be much like I was.

(01:02:42):
Of course I was loved.
Of course my parents loved me.
Of course I had a great upbringingof course not so much.
And I think that's what,
in a way, everybody has to come to that.
We have been soldthis idea that everybody's loved.

(01:03:02):
Oh, you got hurt, your loved.
And he would say, no,the evidence shows it
because the minuteyou start looking at people's dreams
and this may scare people, thenthey won't want to look at their dreams.
But trust me, it's worth it.
You see where love wasn't.
And wherever you don't have love,you have pathology.

(01:03:23):
So wherever love is missing,what's going to fill it?
Not love.
So wherever in the personality
and it's makeup and the designand how it's all put together.
There isn't love.
And that comes from daily life.
Upset what our families went through,
what our parentswent through in their lives,

(01:03:46):
our relationships to them,all of these things
that we're just sort of used to saying,well, okay, yeah,
it was hard, but they did their bestand they may have done their best.
I don't take that,I don't that's that may be very true.
That may also mean it wasn't loving.
And there are some
really lovely people in the world

(01:04:06):
who may also not know how to love.
That's not saying that these are monsterswalking around.
What it's saying ismost people have never really been loved.
They don't even know what it is.
I truly believewhen you treat people with love.
When I say that,I specifically mean looking at dreams in a

(01:04:28):
nut that you are just thisoh, anything you say goes that's not love.
Love is really understandingwho that person is, what that person
has been through on the deepest level,and helping that person
get to the true selfunder all of the trash.
What's buried there?

(01:04:49):
Who's there in your practice when you'rewhen you're getting to know a patient
really well and you've gone over dreams,
do you usually see
or have a better glimpse
of who they truly are before they do?

(01:05:09):
In some ways, I don't know thatI always get a full picture
ahead of time of what that person's going
to look like to everyone else,
but I certainly get these internal
snapshots of parts of a person.
So I might say to youjust what I said to Bernard is,

(01:05:32):
oh yeah, everything was greatand I was loved.
And he's listening to my dreamsand he's saying,
I don't see that so much,but he's not going to say that to me.
He's going to let me come to it.
But I guess our dreams just open us up.
And generally,unbeknownst to the person who's opening up

(01:05:54):
until they realize down the roadwhen they're starting to feel
the feelingsthat their dreams are telling them about,
they know how much they're exposing.
I mean, I say emotional reality.
Okay, so it's not that the dreamis exactly this historical document,
but it's an emotional,historical document.
And what it cutsthrough is a lot of the denial.

(01:06:16):
So the dreams will, you know, every placewhere we've had to go.
Like, I know my mom would yell at meall the time, but I know she loves me.
Okay, right.
She needs you to say that.And you need to say that.
Don't you want that to be true?
That'swhat everybody wants to be. True. Right?
But the dream may come along and say,well, actually, look,
your mom was a really troubled woman,and you're going to have
to let go of wantingto hold on to that fantasy.

(01:06:40):
If you want to heal,if you want to really change,
you have to let go of that fantasybecause if you see what she did to
you as love,you will never be available for real love.
And how are you not going to havethat as your mode
of showing love to those around.That's right.
It will become the standardand it will be the standard

(01:07:01):
of what you look for,for somebody to give to you.
Right.
So you've got this behavior
titled love and it is completely not love.
We have a problem.
I mean, anything else in the worldwhere I said, okay,
you're going to walk around in everyorange, you're going to say is an apple.
People in the world,you know, depending on what that is,
or maybe they don't care about your fruit,but something else that you keep

(01:07:25):
getting wrong, you mislabel itevery time you bump into it,
you're going to have a problem.
So part of the goal of a treatmentand of doing this work, of looking at
your dreams is going, where do I havethis completely mislabeled?
Because that'show I'm living my whole life.
It's amazinghow true that is what you're saying.

(01:07:47):
So if it's love,
you know, it's one thing.
If it's an apple, fine. Don't ever.
Who cares?
You never need an apple. Again, right?
If it's love and you're a human being,we're in trouble.
That's for sure.
There's nothing else.We need more than that.
That's right.
This is one of the critical piecesyou're doing.
And until you get to the truthof the story where you can go, oh,

(01:08:10):
you know, we can call what my mom dida lot of things.
Sometimes it was abusive, sometimes it wasfriendly, sometimes it was thoughtful.
But what it wasn'twas consistently loving.
If we can get that truth
and you can feel it in the heartand know that, then.
Right. And that we can.

(01:08:30):
Oh, that wasn't love.Oh my gosh. All right.
Maybe I don't have to chase that downin the world as an amazing thing.
I have to have. Right.
Then you get some change.
But it requiresknowing the truth of what you had.
And given our propensityas human beings to deny

(01:08:52):
the ugly parts of the people
we depend on most our caretakers.
And so, oh no, it was just.But but they did it for love.
Well, then we're all backwards.
We are. And so here we. Are,and here we are.
I tried to prove to Bernard againand again
that this particular relationshipthat I thought

(01:09:13):
was 112% love,
that I was involved in early in lifeas a, as a teenager.
I so bought into that,and that relationship was my directive
for all of my subsequent relationshipswhere which pretty much would fail.
I kept telling him this andand he never denied that.

(01:09:33):
He neverhe didn't argue you out of your position.
I mean,it was just us having conversations.
And my dreams became this thing.
And maybe he helped steer me here,now that I think about it, because he
he gave me a placeto talk about this thing
that I was so enamoredby without judgment.

(01:09:54):
But my dreams had me
basically often, like
in a yard where they might keep junk
cars, chain link
fence around, locks rattling,
and then like wild animalsrunning around in there with me.
And I was always near death.

(01:10:16):
I always had to be as quiet as I could.
There was no way out, no way out.
And he eventually connected that.
And I can't even gointo all the interpretations
with my experience and,you know, said, well, you know what?
If it's this or whatif it's that and like that.
No, no.

(01:10:36):
But my dreams didn't stop going down.
That kind of fearful, fearful pathwith these giant animals and locks
rattling in cages and I finally opened
my mind to what he was suggesting.
After not too long a period of time,
I got it, I got it.

(01:10:58):
This thing that had shapedall of my romantic
relationshipswas just nothing but a farce.
It was a cage, right?
You were locked in and terrified. Yeah.
And that was devastating to hear.
Devastating to hear that I had continued
to live this lie

(01:11:19):
for decades.
And on the other hand,
so refreshing.
That's a putting it mildly on it.
So enlightening and so freeing.
That's it. It was so freeing.
I was no longer locked up
by that thing that I thought was reality.

(01:11:42):
I totally thought that was reality.
I look back nowand think, isn't that amazing?
It's as simple as the apple in the orange.
You know, I'm calling an orange an apple.
It is that to me.
And to everybody else, it's like, okay.
So that's what we're looking foris help to get emotional clarity

(01:12:02):
so that you have a chance, a shot
at goingin the right direction for yourself.
So you're not locked in a cagewith ferocious
beasts going, oh, this is love.
This is totally love.
Doesn't feel very good. I'm frightened.
Doesn't matter. We'll call it love.
And that's okay with me. Yeah.

(01:12:23):
And even looking backat the reality of that relationship,
it felt like thatI was frightened all the time.
But yet I called it love.
So I just want all of us to be carefulabout what we think the truth is.
Yeah, well, and this may bewhere humans are going that
the more we can look inside.
Let me be very clear,
because I think a lot of timeswe get what we think are emotional truths.

(01:12:46):
It felt like an orange to you, right?
Nobody was going to argue you off of that.
And so we've got this big problem,which is but
we're sayingyour feelings are not always right.
And if we don't get the trashcleaned up inside of you,
you don't know where you're wrong.
And that's, you know, really important.

(01:13:07):
So that we have all these people walking
around calling apples, oranges.
How are they going to put togethera government that does the right thing?
They don't know what the differencebetween an apple and an orange.
Somewhere in there, we don't have enough
of those people, in my opinion.
Enough people who can say an apples, an.

(01:13:29):
Apple, right?
It's overwhelmingly the other.
Yes, that that we canthen make a system of government
that serves the people, that is loving.
If you don't know what the apple is,how do you make a system of government
that is to hand out apples?
It can't happen.

(01:13:50):
And that's why he said it.
And, it resonated with me.
That's right, that's right.
If the psyche has things to confused,you cannot make a good system
to live under.
And as an aside, but an important one,
let the women in the doorstop shutting them down.

(01:14:11):
Yeah.
That was his other big point,was that historically,
the silencing of women, the putting women
in a one down position,always not inviting them to the table.
You can't have a worldthat is loving by definition
if you are doing thatto half your population.

(01:14:32):
Right.
And this is a message to men and women.
It isn't just about women.
Men are not going to do a better jobin the world moving forward,
unless they figure outhow to let women in the door
and stop putting us back in time.
We just took 27 steps backwards.

(01:14:54):
What?
What does going backwards do for us?
Even in a theorywhere you are always referencing back
to the beginning to the start,you weren't going backwards though.
We have moments wherethings are regressive in a treatment.
We may feel feelings we felt from

(01:15:16):
an earlier time,but you are not regress, meaning
the idea is not to actuallytake you back to being a baby.
You are still an adult.
You are still here in the present time.
We don't really want to go backwards.
We are referencing.
We are touching itfor the purpose of going forward.

(01:15:36):
You're not applying that informationto your existing situation,
to your current situation.
Well, the idea is to see where you areand pull it off.
Yeah, but he I think one of the thingsthat is so important about the theory
is that is go to the beginning
to understand the importance of women.

(01:15:56):
That is where for every human being,no matter what the configuration
of a family, you start inside guide.
Until we start somewhere else,you start inside of a human woman.
There's no ifs, ands or buts.
This is how at the moment,this is how the biology works.
So that meanswhy would you not want to treat the person

(01:16:22):
that is responsiblefor bringing in the next generation
with at least as much care
as the people who don't bring inthe next generation
should be afforded the same respect.
And that is going to affect little girlsand little boys.
Yeah.

(01:16:42):
And I think this really came outof his observation
that his mother wasn't happy andshe wasn't allowed to make her own choice.
This is an arranged marriage.
Now, neither of themcould make their choice,
but she was more unhappy about itin the relationship.
And I think he saw that.
Why should a woman have to do that?

(01:17:04):
Why doesn't she get a say? And she
buried these children who come from that.
That's right.
And he, like everybody else in the world,had an imprint and that was part of it.
Right?
That's that has to be in the mix.
You don't have that situationand not do. So.
He had firsthand experiencethat when you don't let women

(01:17:27):
have as much choice as men,there's a problem.
And he felt it in his heart.
That had to be part of how he thought
healing for the individualand for the group would happen.
I feel that early on,before he even came to his theory,

(01:17:49):
he somehow already
had a respect for womenthat most men don't have.
And maybe it is, I don't know.
I'm curious about howthat relates back to his mother, and that
maybe with kids when when he was little,when he was a young teenager,
she used to confide in himhow horrible his father was.

(01:18:09):
The arguments they had, how awful it was.
He hated it. He didn't like hearing it.
But I wonder if he somehow then innately
saw that she was just squashed
and he innately didn't squash women.
I'm not sure.
It's sort of like the oppositeof what you think.

(01:18:29):
Well, and maybe he was giving every womanwhat he wanted his mother to have had.
You are important.
Let me listen to you, not argue with youand and tell you
you're wrong about everything.
Let me actually listen to you.
I think that's what his motherwas trying to get from him.
Right?
Won't you please just listen to me?
Understand what I'm feeling?

(01:18:50):
Maybe many other things as well.
But that was a piece of it.
And I think he thought, okay, well,
who doesn't want to be valuedand listened to? Why?
Why would we assume thatisn't important anyway?
And he also said that he saw his mothermany, many times
sort of being the neighborhood confidant.

(01:19:11):
So people would come to herwith, with their troubles.
And he said he always just wantedto sit on the sidelines
and kind of listen to that good stuffgoing on there.
And he could see in her face, in her eyes
that she was really listeningto these people.
And the same with her mother.
Oh, interesting.
So he's in the line.

(01:19:31):
He's in the family business.
Okay.
Well, it at least gives peoplemore of a sense of how you ended up
wanting to do a podcastthat carries his work on.
Oh thank you. Yes.
I am so thrilled to be here.
And I'm a bruised apple.
We should all strive to be bruised apples.

(01:19:53):
That would be. Good.
I'm not exactly an orange anymore,but I'm working toward being a pure apple.
Right?
But, you know, it's a lifetimeand and bruises are A-okay.
Yeah.
Thank you.Thank you so much for letting me share.
Thank you for sharing.
So much of the story behind the scene.
It was fine. It's fine.

(01:20:13):
Thank you very much for listening.
Come back again soon.
We have more to talk about. Bye for now.
And.