In this episode, we welcome back Dr. Loren Weiner who provides a case-study of one of her patients. Experience the enthralling tale of self-discovery, who discovers with her own intuition and through many therapy sessions with Dr. Weiner that she holds many different imprints that have been passed down to her from her mother. This episode dives into dream analysis and interpretation of the patient’s dreams and how they unlock these realizations that she has been mentally and unconsciously “asleep” since her birth. Dr. Loren and Cynthia will discuss just how much of Dr. Bail’s methodology helps to unlock our true selves and re-discover who we were truly meant to be.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:04):
Hi, I'm Cynthia Marks.
I head up the HolisticPsychoanalysis Foundation
established by my late husband, Dr.
Bernard Bail.Welcome to And Now Love,
Dr. Loren Weinerjoins us today to talk about dreams.
We are thrilled to have her with usand cannot wait to dive into a dream
(00:27):
or two, talk about interpretationsand how individuals can use their dreams
to delve into their unconsciousand discover their best selves.
So far, we've been talking about Dr.
Bails theory very generally.
Today, Loren and I are so excitedto share the particulars of a patient's
(00:47):
journey toward a better lifethrough dream interpretation.
As you follow along,you will discover the ways in which Dr.
Bails theory absolutely appliesto each and every one of us.
Without a doubt,we can all become our best selves
and live lives that are fulfillingand meaningful, both as individuals
(01:10):
and as an integral part of humanityat large.
We will start with the first dreamof one patient beginning her therapy.
We will continue with hersubsequent dreams
and you will see progress being madein addressing and removing trauma
with the ultimate goalof finding one's true self.
(01:33):
Hi, Loren.
Thank you so. Much for having me.
I'm so excited.
And this is really going to bean interesting session.
We're finally here.
I am so excited to share this.
We've been walking around this and now.
Right.
Actually going to have our viewersand listeners participate.
(01:54):
Right? Right.
We're finally at thewhat the whole point of this
is, is to show how our dreams help us.
What they tell us about who we areand where we can go.
Okay.
I mean, I already have questions,but I'm running off.
Okay.I can't wait to hear what you have to say.
Yeah.
So today, what I'd like to dois talk about a patient.
(02:15):
And this patient is
a young woman, latetwenties, figuring out her life.
And this isn't.
When you said trauma in the intro,this isn't a person where the trauma is
overt.
We will get to dreams with peoplewho have that in their history.
This is just a person who I thinkif you saw her on the street
(02:36):
or met her somewhere, youyou as a regular person.
And I think she herself wouldn't saythere's any trauma here.
But we all have some kind of drama.
We all have some kind of trauma.
And that's the underlying piece of Dr.
Bails theory,is that actually there is a trauma.
It starts at the beginning.
It is what happenswhen we receive an imprint.
(02:59):
And just to recap, an imprintis the unwanted, unprocessed,
unconscious feelings, thoughts, ideas
about ourself that we all carry,but especially that women carry
that is transferred to the babyduring the pregnancy.
(03:21):
It's unknown to everybody, but all of thisnegative content, negative feelings,
negative experiences get put into the baby
and it actually splits the baby's mind.
You know, he'll say, How do you know this?
We will see it in dreams.
But it splits the baby's mind and the babybecause this idea is felt
(03:42):
to be so painful emotionally, so painful.
What's it? And walls it off.
And basicallywe're never going there again.
So now we've got this part of the mindthat is separate
and not inactive.
Separate.
The wish is that itno longer impacts us, but it does.
(04:06):
In fact, it impacts everything we do.
So we've got this imprintand it really is a trauma.
This is the first trauma.
So we are all walking aroundhaving already experienced a trauma.
And then the question is, okay,what kind of trauma did you get?
What was involvedin all of those feelings?
What did it look like, given your mother,
(04:29):
her history and her ancestors?
What did that all look likeand what did it do to you?
What cost?
What happens to youwhen you have to experience this blow
wall it off, and then try to go onwith your life as though it didn't happen?
So we all have this, thereforewe're all traumatized.
(04:49):
Now, I don't want to minimize.
Then later,big overt traumas for people. Yes.
But people have to know, in fact,that sits on top of a trauma
that's already happened, that happensto a person who's already compromised.
In essence.
So you can see why that's going toto split the personality
(05:10):
or impactthe person even more than it might.
So it's almost as if you havea bigger exposure to the possible
of some serious trauma if you aren't ableto overcome this normal trauma.
Right. And you definitely do. There'sno question.
It's like it hits you on the fault lineand you don't know
(05:31):
what the original trauma is for anyonebecause we don't get t shirts.
I wish it were that simple. Right?
You know, here's my imprint.
We don't.
So you never know where something'sgoing to hit.
What's already sitting there quietly.
This is a woman who I think,you know, as I'm saying,
would generallynot be considered a traumatized person.
(05:52):
And she ended up in my officebecause she had imagined
certain plans for her life.
You know, I'm going to grow up.I'm going to get this career.
I'm going to end up in a relationship.
I'm going to have a family.
And it wasn't working out.
It didn't mean she was able to to goto school and get an advanced degree.
(06:12):
Again, looks like she's got everythingmade, dated.
People had relationships.
Nothing was quite working out.
Again, you'd say, okay, what'swhat's the big complaint?
And I thinkshe felt that way about herself.
But I'm not. Happy.
But everything seems okay.
Can I really complain about this?
Can I really try to make it different?
Am I entitled to that? All of that.
(06:34):
And do I know we want to get into this,but do most people
come to youwith a similar set of circumstances?
Not really.
Big, scary trauma,but just kind of these familiar issues
and we're not ableto get to the bottom of them on our own.
It runs the gamut.
You know, a lot of times
people show up in your officebecause something big has happened,
(06:57):
a divorce, familysplit, depression, anxiety.
I'm going homeevery night and I'm you know, I can't eat.
I'm terrifiedor I'm not getting out of bed suddenly.
And so it really runs the gamut.
I'm starting herebecause I think this may make sense
to a lot of people who wouldn't think,this is something you go to therapy for.
(07:19):
I think this is somethingthat a lot of people just live with.
And in a way, it's akin to saying
I'm just going to limp aroundwith this sprained ankle or a broken leg.
But everybody does.
We all have broken legs.
So it's just a broken leg. Right.
When you talk to somebody, if you didn'thave a dream, it's all right.
I mean, you know, okay,you got some complaints. I get it.
(07:40):
You know, lifedidn't quite work out the way you wanted.
Okay, It. Goes.
And then you get dreams.
And then the dreams start to show you.
wait a minute.
This is more than you thought.
And there's a reason this is happening.
There's a reason you feel the way you do,and there's something we can do about it.
And it becomes amazingly clear.
(08:00):
If you're lucky,it becomes amazingly clear.
What I did do is pick some sessionsthat illustrate
some big ideas that patients come inwith unconscious, honestly.
So these are the things that they haveno idea about when they start treatment.
But that become clear, clear to meas the treatment goes along.
(08:21):
But of course, my job is to make itclear to the patient. Yes.
One of the biggest things
that has to happen in a treatment isyou have to have a really
get a really good pictureof what happened in your life.
What's the emotional truthof what happened in my life?
Because if you don't know your story,you can't change it.
You don't know what you're fighting.
(08:43):
that's so easy to understand.
This woman,you know, was not happy in her life.
I'd say she just wasn't satisfied.
She had tried all these things.
It should have gone the way she wanted,and it wasn't working out.
Sort of just didn't know what to do.
Where do you turn? Where do you go?
And she was lucky enoughthat she had a friend who was talking
about having seen a colleague of mine
(09:05):
who worked with dreamsand was finding it interesting.
And my patient, well,I'm interested in this.
It luckily, right.
It just caught her attention.
And so she ended up in my office.
And I think when she came,I think even she wasn't sure.
Should she really be here?
You know, is as you were saying,is this really enough to come see
(09:26):
somebody about to talk aboutthis is am I just complaining?
Is there really a problem here andsomething that could be fixed addressed?
And of course, the answer was yes.
Yes. And how fortunate
that she was able to come to youbecause you know how to do this.
Yeah. Luckily, we could get to the dreams.
What happens?
(09:46):
Typically,I'm going to go through some typical stuff
for those peoplewho have never been in therapy.
One of the things that I thinkmost therapists do is
you want the patient to start talking.
You want to hear what's on someone's mind.
So sometimes in the beginningI might ask a few more questions.
(10:08):
Generally,I want to get somebody's history.
I want to, you know,
first and foremost, I want to understandwhat brings them into my office.
Why are you here?
What's been your your experience?
I might want to knowif they've had prior therapy.
If so, what did you learn?
So I'm asking these sorts of questions,
but mostlyI just want the patient to start talking.
(10:31):
Tell me your story.
Tell me this on your mind.
That'sprobably going to tell you more than them
just sort of blatantly saying, I'm herebecause of this, this and this.
They may say,I don't even know why I'm here.
But once they start to tell their story,you can get a glimpse of why
they're there. Right? Right.
So I'm I'm just listening in a wayto what the unconscious pulls up for them.
(10:52):
So the unconscious is always going.
It starts right away
and it's going to have the patient talkabout certain things.
Right.
And when I say that, it means, you know,certain things will just come to mind.
Like you might end up talkingmore about your brother and your sister
than you know how bad your car is running.
I mean.
(11:12):
Yes, hopefully you get two thingsthat are important.
Anything's interesting to me.
Meaning if somebody were to suddenly starttalking about something like that
and my car in this, I'm thinking, okay,why is this coming up?
Right. Right.
So I'm always listening to sort of
think aboutwhat is somebody talking about and why?
(11:33):
What is what are they trying to tell me?
What do they want to show me?
They chose this to bring to me. Exactly.
And this is a beginning, right?
So in a first session, we'relooking at a beginning now, keeping Dr.
Bail's theory in mind for our purposeshere.
He's saying,but everything happens at the start.
(11:54):
And that's true for therapy, too.
That's good to keep in mind. Right.
So a first session is really important.
And what somebody starts withis really important
because this is the start.
I say all thatand I didn't bring the first session
because what I wanted to really show
was something that a lot of people
don't know about themselves
(12:16):
but become clearwhen you start listening to their dreams.
And one of the things that you will see in
this session is a piece of what is holdingthis woman back in her life.
And this is a few months into treatment,which means she's coming.
We're talking dreams are coming up,and she's starting to learn that
(12:39):
her unconscious life is really important
in how her waking life goes.
Through the course of this.
Does she becomegreatly interested in that?
Like have a thirst for more and more?
Yes. Over time, though, you know,I don't know that
this is immediately like, wow,I didn't know this was going on.
(13:00):
This is amazing.
I think at first it's reallyhow can I trust this?
How much stock do I put in thisthat feels right.
But nobody's ever talked to me about thissort of thing before.
So what do I do with this? Right.
And how did we end up on thisinstead of that and that or that?
Right.In terms of an interpretation. Right.
And and I think one of the thingsthat comes out
(13:22):
in the beginning of a therapyis all of the family history.
And sometimes people get to thatright away.
They can see the connection and sometimespeople don't they don't realize
that there's a connectionor they've not thought about
certain dynamics in the family in the way
that it becomes clear
in a treatment have impacted them right.
(13:45):
So someone may come in and say, well,my family, you know,
thinking that is this is going to bean important part of what you talk about.
We're all we're fine.
I don't really see any issues.So where else should we go?
But right there,you already know something, right?
This person doesn'teven want to go there. Yes.
So you're listening all the timeand that's a clue.
And my question is, are they allowedto think about the family that way?
(14:09):
Are we allowed toimagine that it wasn't perfect?
This is something where you might complain
to your best friend about,You know, my mom said this to me again,
but it's another thing to come in and tella professional I have a complaint right.
And a lot of people grew upand so did the patient in homes
where complaining aboutyour parents is forbidden.
(14:31):
Yes. You don't do that. Yeah.
They are feeding you, clothingyou, educating you, whatever else
they're doing,and you really don't complain.
So the idea isn't that you're going
to come into therapy and all we do istalk about your complaints,
but in a way, having the freedomto suddenly have a different kind
of conversation where your mind is allowedto notice things and notice
(14:55):
the things that didn't feel good to it,and then talk about them.
In a safe placeand not feel like you have to feel bad
about yourself for saying these. Things.
People will feel bad about themselvesif that's the dynamic, right?
If you weren't supposed to, then
how do you come in and starttalking about the dirty laundry?
That might take time.
(15:16):
People often will say, Well,
why am I talking about stuff that happenedso long ago?
It's not relevant,or I don't think about my parents anymore.
I've got my own kids now.I don't think about them.
Why Why are we spending time on that?
And a lot of timeswhat you have to do is just let the dreams
pull the important piecesand the dream will lead you
(15:38):
where you're supposed to go,tell you where to dig.
So in the first few sessions,I want to just give a little history
on this woman so people can kind of relateto her a bit and understand
we're going to call her Jessica. Okay.
Okay.
So Jessica comes in and she tells mesome history about her family.
In the beginning,when she first comes to see me,
(15:58):
she does give me some backgroundabout the family.
She told me that her mother's sideis from the east Coast, from a big family.
Jessica saysthat her grandparents were people
she saw a few timesa year, were generally nice people.
She did say she knew they weren'talways that nice to her mother
when she was growing up, but by the timethey were her grandparents,
(16:19):
they were nice enough.
And and that was that.
Let's see, she knew they were strictwith her mother when she was growing up.
And she also knew that girls in the familywere not treated equally
to the boys in the family,so that the boys were educated.
They paid for their education.
The girls were not.
The money just wasn't there for that.
(16:41):
And they were sort of expectedto get married
and the husbandswould take care of things.
She told me that her father was
from a wealthy familybut who had lost all their money.
And so there was that shame and sadness
and upsetsort of flowing through the family.
She did note that a lot of discordin that family, you know, siblings
(17:02):
weren't talking to each other,
grandparents that had been falling out,you know, all sorts of things.
Then she told me about herimmediate family.
And one of the things that she didfocus on who and a person who was talked
about more in the beginning of treatmentwas her older brother.
She was the middle child,had a younger sister and an older brother.
(17:23):
And the older brotherwas a thorn in her side.
A lot of timeshe wasn't all that nice to anybody.
I think a smart guy, good sense of humor,but not very nice to people.
And she felt that and and nobodyreally talked about it in the family.
He just sort of did away with it,got away with it, and then the rest of
(17:45):
the history would sort of emergeas the treatment unfolds.
So I'm going to jump into the firstsession.
We're going to talk about it'snot the first session in treatment.
Okay. So she's
generally got the hang of thingsat this point, though,
when somebody starts talking, usually,you know, I just if they don't immediately
(18:07):
start, I just tell them, you know, startwith whatever's on your mind.
And then I try to be quiet.
So even though I may aska lot of questions about dreams,
I want to be quiet.
If I'm able to in a session enoughto let the person
just talk, say whatever comes to mind.
(18:28):
So she does and she starts and,
you know, just sort of talkingabout the things in her life.
She said things are going fine.
I'm swamped at work.
So much stuff for work to finish.
But I'm I'm close. It's almost done.
I felt a little overwhelmed, I guess.
So you start getting a little hint.
(18:48):
There are a lot of loose endsto tie up for the case.
And then some social stuff.A bridal shower, some parties.
I'm supposed to help outwith food and decorating, and I can't
start thinking about thatuntil I finish everything else up.
I guessI'm more than a little overwhelmed.
Then she switches topics.
My friend Dave is still around.
I feel like he would like more from me,but it isn't to say that I'm not sure
(19:11):
that I want to take it there.
Things are complicated though,
and I really value our friendship,so I don't know.
Is it worth it?
I don't know that I think he would be agood match for me romantically long term.
He's a great guy on paper,
but I don't know if we really wantthe same things.
I also don't know how long I can keep itin the friendzone without it getting weird
or one of us moving onand actually starting to date someone.
(19:34):
And I can'timagine what that would be like.
I guess I don't know what I'm doing.
I want his attention, but I'm not sureI really want to date him.
Does that make me an awful person?
I'm confusedand really unsure about what to do.
I feel like I go through this a lot.
I like a guy, but then I'm not sure.
Is he good for me?
Should I do it?Or is it better to wait until?
(19:55):
I'm really sure.
I feel like I don't knowif I'll ever feel like it's right.
So maybe I should just try it and see.
Wow, that's a familiar scenariofor so many people.
Yeah.
And then she saidthere were a few tough moments this week.
I've been noticing that there'sjust this weird vibe in the family,
like all this stuff goes down and I feellike it doesn't really get talked about.
(20:18):
It's all kind of under the radar,but I notice it now, and I
tried to say something the other nightand it was not well-received.
We were all out for dinnerand I just noticed that
there was these jabs that my brotherwould make towards my sister
and towards my mom.
My dad would just ignore itand sip his wine.
And I felt like it's the same stuffI've been telling you about,
(20:39):
but it's bothering me more now.
I'm starting to see it more.
So I just made a small commentabout how he was kind of being an ass
and he didn't really say anything,
but I could tellmy comment was not well-received
and like he didn't want to be called outfor being a mean guy,
but he was being a mean guy.
He isn't always, but he can just cutwith these little comments
(21:01):
and then he sort ofsits there like they aren't mean.
I didn't do anything.I didn't say anything wrong.
Get over it.
And I asked the patient,Where do you think you learned to do that?
And she thought for a moment, maybe
my dad, he used to do thatmore when we were younger.
He's mellowed over the years,so he's different now.
But maybe my brother took his place.
(21:23):
It isn't overt in his commentsor always couched in humor, but they cut
my sisterseem relieved to have me say something
because I don't think she ever wantsto really start with him.
She isn't as quick witted as he is,and I honestly think she's afraid to start
with him.
But that meansshe just has to take his shit.
And I asked because this was at a familygathering where everybody was there.
(21:43):
Did your mom say anything?
And she said, No.
I think she's always afraidto get in the middle of the kids arguing
like she worries one of us will be hurtthinking she's taking sides.
But instead, maybe we're all just upsetthat she never chimes in
like we would have to drag her into really get her to referee.
So I've gotten a sense ofwhat's been going
(22:05):
on, what's on the patient's mindthis session.
That's a lot. That's a lot, right?
So if you're the therapist, you'rethinking, what's the most important thing
Where do I you know,if I'm going to say something about this
at some point in the session,what do I choose?
What do I pick? What's the most important?
Well, I don't know that I would knowat that point.
(22:25):
I might have some inklings.
This sounds
like we're going from up heredown to here.
All right,So I'm watching the progression of
not only what she talks about, the affect,what feelings start coming up.
Right.
And in the beginning, she starts to itgoes from everything's fine to O8.
Maybe I'm overwhelmed.
(22:46):
wait, maybe there's some stuffin the family I'm starting to notice.
wait, something happened.
I ask her if she had a dream.
She said she had a dream last night.
In the dream she was at her friendRobin's house and it was 11 a.m.
in the dream.
She remembered that and I think or hear
from other people in the housethat she's still sleeping.
(23:07):
Robin's still sleeping.
I get angry like she needs to wake up.
But then she comes over to meand she is awake.
There are two of her.
I think she's wearing a long caftanwith a big chunky necklace.
I think I'm surprisedthere are two of her.
We're in a big house,I think, and that's the dream.
(23:28):
So what I always
do is ask people,just tell me whatever comes to your mind
about the dream, and I want to leave itas open as possible.
So let's see what the unconscious wants
said so
she says,because she's she's used to this now
for a few months and she gets the ideathat she's going to tell me a dream.
(23:50):
I'm going to ask her
what comes to her mind,and then she's going to tell me
whatever thoughts as much as she can do itwithout censoring,
which is called free association,Just tell me whatever comes to mind.
No censoring.
Well, if if possible.
So she says, I have no ideawhy I was dreaming about Robin.
(24:11):
I haven't seen or talked to herin quite a few years, maybe four or five.
I like her.
I think we're like in some ways
and people confused ussometimes in elementary school.
But I think she's much more type-Aand things seem to go better
for her than for me.
I kind of admire her, though.
I don't think I wouldswitch places with her.
(24:31):
There are some things I would like.
She's really good.
Socially,she's more comfortable than I am.
She walks into a room and owns it.
I definitely don't feel that confident.
I feel like I can talk to peoplepretty easily, but I'm nervous underneath.
I don't think she is,or it really doesn't show.
Thingsjust seem to come easily for her to like.
(24:54):
She never seems to be working that hard
and she's enjoying her life andI feel like I'm never quite where she is.
I'm just not as comfortable in my skinas she is.
I'm not sure that it reads that way.
Like I know
I look out going to everyone elsewho knows, maybe she feels the same way.
And then I ask her,why is she asleep in the dream?
(25:16):
So I'm now going to,after I've heard her general statement,
I may start asking aboutspecific pieces of the dream.
If she hasn't commented on them,even if she has, I might go back to them.
If I feel I need more information.
And so I'm now thinking about the dreamand seeing how does this fit into her
life?
(25:36):
What in her worldmade this dream this week?
What does she want to know?
What does her mind want to know to grow?
Right.
What's it going to tell us about herselfso she can move forward?
So I ask her, because this is obviouslythe biggest piece of the dream
is Robin's asleep.
So why is Robin asleep in the dream?
(25:59):
I don't know. I can't remember that part,
But I'm walking aroundlooking for her and I'm angry.
I'm upset about it, and I'm not sure whyit would make me that upset, but I was.
I felt like it was already late morning
and I guess I was wanting to talk to her.
Or maybe we were supposed to go somewhere.
I'm not quite sure,but she wasn't up and it bothered me.
(26:22):
I ask her why there are two two robins.
I have no idea about that.
Both in the same outfit too,which is something she would wear.
It was chic in a very casual way,but there was no acknowledgment
that she had been asleepor kept me waiting.
There were other people thereand I felt like I knew them in the dream,
but I couldn't recall who they were oncethey woke up.
(26:44):
I think they were friends, though.
Like maybe we were all goingto go somewhere together.
And I asked her,So why do you think you're dreaming about
someone being asleep?
Who do you feel is asleep?
And she said, Well, that's a tough one.
I mean, maybe my mom is asleep,or at least she keeps her feelings
kind of hidden.
But she's like that in her family.
(27:04):
Everyone keeps it all inside.
They don't really show any feelings.
And you have to really guesswhere they stand.
I think she reads kind of light and breezyto people because on the outside
she's smiling and friendly,but you never get below the surface.
It just feels like she is sweet and chattybut doesn't go deep.
She'll clam upwhen I try to bring up anything deep.
(27:27):
She doesn't like itand I know that I can feel her shut down.
So there was more back and forthI don't want to go through.
The entire sessionwill lose people here, but
generally I wanted to give you a sense ofwhat's happening.
There's a back and forth.I'm asking questions.
The patient is now reflectacting on the parts of her dream.
(27:49):
Her unconscious made this dream. Why?Right.
This is this is the big question.
I think it sounds like you are Robin,you've been asleep because your mother
didn't want to go deep,so you had to put your feelings to sleep.
They weren't invited in.
It sounds like you get a similar messagefrom your brother,
(28:10):
who may be a stand in for your father.
He's allowed to make cutting commentsand nobody stops him.
And when you say something,there's no support for it.
The message is that you being awake to seeall of this is not a good thing.
And it would be betterif you would just go back to sleep.
So in that dream, you're angrythat you've been put to sleep.
(28:31):
The good news is there's nowalso a part of you that is awake.
And then I want to seewhat the patient does with it.
I'm looking to see does she feel it?
Does she Tell me that sounds crazy.
You're totally off base or.
Yes, this makes sense to meor somewhere in the middle.
And I'm watchingbecause if I get a disagreement
(28:52):
in some way, I have to think that am I off
that I hit the most important piece,that I misunderstand something?
Or is this to to rebellious, to talk aboutare we allowed to know this?
So I have to see where a patient is withany given interpretation of the dream.
We talk a little bit moreand she could understand it
(29:14):
and she could say, I'm really upset.
I'm really upset that
a part of me was put to sleepand she could see it now.
And I think she had built up enoughtrust from us going over previous dreams
that she could seethat she's been asleep to her whole life.
And this is why things don't go well.
(29:37):
This is why it isn't a satisfying life.
You're not even awake in your own life.
How do you pick the right person?
How do you make the right choiceabout a career
or where you're going to work or what cityyou want to live in or anything?
If you're asleep to your own lifeand you're asleep because feelings
were not really welcome in the family.
(30:01):
And this is going to open upmore as the treatment goes on.
But we get the hint of it here.
There were a lot of additional piecesI might have interpreted.
I went to this, Robin, is you
because I want to wake her up
because the first thing I want to dobefore we get to what's your imprint,
before we get to other things,according to this session,
(30:24):
the main thing I have to get to isyou are asleep in your own life.
And so you can't explore any of thisuntil you're. Awake.
That's it, right?
I need a person who is awakeor at least engaged in waking up.
And to do that,she has to first know she's asleep.
Otherwise she doesn't know.She has to wake up. Right?
I need her to start being engagedin waking herself up
(30:47):
so that there is somebody tothen talk to in the rest of the treatment
to make the interpretations tothere is an awake person to receive them.
So that becomes that's whythat's the main thing I want to interpret.
There's a lot there.
You know, other people may say, well,you didn't go through the transference.
This is when you're going to talk to meand put all of your previous
(31:12):
important relationships and the feelingsabout them in the people in them onto me.
And you're going.
To relate to melike I am some person in your history,
probably your mother or fatheror a sibling or aunt or uncle.
And that's really important that is thereand we will get to it in a session.
I will interpret something in a dream
(31:33):
and take up the transferenceif it is not clear in the dream.
But here the main thing isshe's got to wake up sound the alarm.
Step one. Step one.
Now she's already doing it a bitbecause we get as there's two.
The question,of course, becomes in this dream
and I don't knowthat I would say this yet, right?
We've got two. Who are the two.
(31:55):
So there's two parts of her.
We've got a part that's waking up.
Right.
Interesting.
In the long caftanand big chunky necklace.
And in my mind,I thought this is a nightgown.
Right.
And she's telling me thatspeaking up the throat chakra
with this big chunky necklace is the placewhere the trouble is.
(32:15):
A lot of weight here. A lot of weighthere. That's right.
Then I'm also saying, well, this.And she said it.
This may be her in her mother.
And I take that that's very important.
She said it.
I wrestle with that a little.
Which one do I want to interpret first?
I went with herbecause I want to wake her up.
But absolutely, there's no questionthat the mother also put herself to sleep.
(32:38):
And that will likelyshow up down the road after.
So anyway.
It showed up actually in this sessionand I touched on it, but I didn't hit that
as hard as the first piece,which is she's got to wake up.
And even though it did show up,you can still it'll come up again
at a more opportune time to address it,perhaps.
I guarantee thatif this is what's happening, it's
(32:59):
going to show itselfmany, many, many, many, many times.
And I love that you say I guarantee.
Yeah, I guarantee it.
I know it will,because it's a central issue and we dream
about our central issuesover and over and over.
We work them through, we pull them apart.
We hear something like your sleeping.
And while she may go, okay,this is really like, whoa.
(33:23):
And I have to think aboutam I really asleep and wrestle with this?
And then she may embrace itsometimes and deny it.
No. Right.
Don't wake me up. See?
And already there was some trouble therebecause I'm waking her up, right?
I am talking about these things and it'sgetting her in trouble in her family.
Yes. Now I'm a troublemaker.
(33:44):
Right? Right.
So I know at some pointthe fact that I am a troublemaker
will also show itself somewhere.
You're not panicked about that.
That is part of a treatment.
But you're going to have to make sureyou're on top of it,
because if that builds too much,I'm too much of a troublemaker.
And I'm not helping her with thator making her see where
(34:06):
that might show itself.
Somebody might walk a.
Fine line. There, fine line there.
So I'm giving youa lot of information here because I'm
both telling you what she said, whatI said in the session and also the things
that are always sitting in your mindas you're listening to somebody.
I mean, they're rather natural now,so it just pops up.
(34:26):
But that there is a whole picture
of both the person and the treatmentyou are paying attention to.
So when Jessica realizesthat she's been asleep,
when she's able to agree with thator feel that, did
she look back at her life and say,what a waste, What do I do now?
(34:47):
Or was it more of an opening?
Like, thank goodnessI discovered this and I can move forward
now with some different sort of purposeor with a purpose?
Luckily, the latter for herthat I think she started going,
this is all starting to make sense.
I felt like I was sleepwalking in my life.
And I came here for a reason.And now we're getting there.
(35:09):
And now we're getting there and All right.
So it isn't just mebeing sort of overly sensitive
to all of these places in my lifethat didn't feel good.
It's that there's really something there.
And what's so interestingabout this patient and this dream
and why I wanted to start hereis that there are so many millions
(35:31):
of people walking around asleepand you wouldn't know
because these are busy, productive people,They are doing things
and they may have all kinds of complaints,but everything is well, it's just life.
And yes, some of this is life.
Life isn't necessarilysupposed to be just a fun time always.
But when you you don't knowsomebody is completely asleep
(35:53):
in their own life until you see the dream,you would never know.
I'm not going to get thatif she's just talking to me.
Sure. Right.
And it's a keybecause I can just talk to her.
And if I don't know, she's asleep,how can I ever wake her up?
I can't do it.So that's the beauty of this.
That's the beauty of having a dream, tellyou exactly where you need to go.
(36:15):
And one of the big thingsthat has to happen in a treatment
to give it a chance to succeed. Amazing.
So we're all so goodat managing our lives.
Whatever we think of our lives, it'sas if the only way
you can get to the bottom ofit is through these dreams.
I think that's the idea.
And that'swhy Dr. Baily loved the dream so much.
(36:37):
This was his using the dreamto get to the imprint.
I mean, that was everything for him.
He felt this is really the key
to changing the wayhuman beings understand themselves,
feel about themselves and each other,and then really turning everything inside.
The only way you start to change the world
(36:59):
that we're all so externally focused
and his and you're missing the whole show.
Everything out here is a reenactment
of the internal world for everyone.
And you can imagineif you are asleep in your internal world,
(37:19):
how how many things can really go right?
Maybe you get lucky. Yeah.
When Jessica was sharing her thoughtsabout the man that she was interested?
Do I deserve this?Is this right? I'm not sure.
I mean, that's.
I could just say, Well, she's asleep.
She's not aware of her own feelingsabout that situation in particular.
(37:41):
Exactly.
And so that kind of concept would couldapply to everything in one's existence.
It does all the time that oncewe've had to put ourselves to sleep
because the family, wherever we're
developing, doesn't tolerate it, you know?
And then look, that doesn't meanpeople were awful and ogres.
And what it means is that, you know,there was just this sort of don't
(38:04):
bother me with it. It's too much.
And we're not going to talk aboutthe feelings.
You ask me something,I'm not going deep. Yeah.
And so a child comes away with the messageover and over, Don't do it.
And then you don't know any other way.
You don't know any other wayand you don't know yourself.
Yeah, and this is an example that, yes,I think is very generalizable
(38:26):
because people do this,They have this conversation
with themselvesabout a whole host of things.
It's not just about relationships, it'swhat do I want to study?
What job should I take?I don't know what career path,
what do I do about this problemor that problem?
And the biggest issuethere, in addition to an imprint
and we will get to that, is that you can'tthen access your feelings
(38:51):
enough to use them as a compassand you need them.
You can't always make the best decisionfor yourself because you have no basis
for that decision.
It's all intellectual, you know?
So people have to sit thereand it's like ten things in my pro
lives, ten things in my conscious.Now what?
And there's no tiebreaker.
There's no feeling that says, okay, yeah,you know what?
(39:12):
This is a really good guy.
And I, I am interestedbeyond all of these worries that I have
or I have all these worriesbecause no, he's not the right guy.
Listen to thatand listen to that. It's interesting.
I think when we do our pros and cons,maybe the pros are that big
and the cons are that bigor the other way around,
but you can't even settle with that.
(39:33):
You're like, Well, that one prois probably worth seven of those cons, so.
So you can't even get to the bottom of itthat way.
That's right. Yeah.
I mean circles right?You're running in circles.
And that's the whole pointof being asleep.
People can look in their life.
Where am I running In circles.
Why isn't it going anywhere?What's happening?
And really, it's.
Then can I be in touchwith the deepest part of myself?
(39:56):
How do I feel about this?
And then she also shared that she hadthe experience with her brother.
She knew enough to know thatsome of what he was doing was not okay.
She was feeling thatand she called him out a little bit.
Right? Yeah.
And he shut her downas if she should go back to sleep.
Like, don't even try it.
(40:18):
That's right.
And I think that'swhat probably triggered the dream.
Won't you just go back to sleep?
And so we don't get a forceful dream,right?
This is a very.
I'm going to this nice houseand big and it's easy
and she just happens to be asleepand then I'm enraged.
And even the patient, I don't think Ishould be that angry about this, but I am.
(40:39):
Yeah.
So she was enraged with her brotherfor having shut that down.
But nobody's really going to talkback to the brother and the brother.
She was right. The patient's right.
The brother or I think I might havesaid it in the interpretation.
She's connectedthe brother and the father.
So a lot of the the talk,what becomes clear is a lot of the talk
(41:01):
about the brother.
Well, it is about the brotheralso has a thread,
a tie back to the father,the father who is now more mellow
because he's much olderbut was hell on wheels
when this child was very youngand growing up.
And a tie back to the mother,perhaps because she was silent.
(41:24):
Exactly.
So you can see all the pressure, right?
The brother is overtly sort of like,I'll let you say it, but you get the look.
Don't go there.
And then everybody else is silentand therefore complicit, allowing this.
The mother said, we're not going to talkabout feelings and then doesn't step in.
(41:45):
Right. Doesn't shut this down.
So all of these ways in which this woman
gets the message,your feelings aren't important.
They are frustrating to everybody,quiet down,
go back to sleep and don't rock the boat.
Right. Then we'll all survive.
Well, I'll survive.
Wow. Well, gosh,thank you for all of that.
(42:07):
Do you have more on this first dream?
I have so much more.
No, I don't have more on the first dream.
I think we covered the first dream.
Okay, so we're going to go onto the next session.
This is not the next sessionfor the patient.
We are now more months down the line.
She is continuing to do this.
She finds it useful.
Interesting. It's making sense to her.
(42:29):
That doesn'tmean everything makes sense to her.
There are still lots of questions,but I want to go over this dream because
we finally get to an imprint dream here.
And I think everybody's going to wantto hear what an imprint dream sounds like.
Yes, right. So now there are a few kinds.
Sometimes we get oneswhere you see the imprint being delivered
(42:50):
that is a muchusually a much more violent type dream.
Not always, but generally.
And this is more aboutwhat the imprint is for this person.
I see. Okay.
So this is going to be critical, criticalinformation for this patient to know.
Okay. Okay.
So I'm just going to jump in.
(43:10):
In this session,the patient starts and again,
I am sitting back just letting the patienttell me whatever's on your mind.
When you do that. Yes.
Are you completely open?
You don't have little hints ofwhere you think it should go?
Well, usually that's at the beginning ofthe session, so I don't know anything yet.
Right.
And so every sessionI am sort of saying I have no idea
(43:34):
what's going to be important.
I know the person,but every session is new, right?
So everyone,I have to try my best to just listen
and let whatever comes into my mindcome in to help guide me.
Okay? Okay.
So she says,I've been pretty frustrated this week.
I guess I kind of feel like crap.
(43:56):
I feel like I can't quiteget things moving.
I've been applying for more positionsand I get an immediate response
and it all looks good
and then it kind of stalls or disappearsaltogether, it's killing me.
I just want to find the right place,the right place to be.
It really should not be this hard.
I have friends that are doing so well
and I be doing what they doif I just get a chance.
(44:19):
I just need to get in the door.
I can stay where I am for the momentso it isn't like
I won't have a roof over head,but I want more.
I want a better placewhere I can really grow.
Then she continues,and to make things worse, all of this
career stuff was on my mind and I couldn'tenjoy my date night with Brian.
I'm there, my body was there,but I just couldn't enjoy it.
(44:42):
I was looking forward to this nightfor so long.
It was with a few of our friendsand it was a band
I hadn't seen in a long time.
This should have been a really good nightand I was just not able
to fully appreciate it.
He was so sweet and we went to thisreally nice restaurant before the show
and he was being really romanticand I was just sat inside.
I tried not to show it,but I know he could tell.
(45:04):
And then thinks it's him and I don't wantand I don't love him enough or like,
he didn't plan it. Right.And it's none of that.
It was great. It was just me.
Like I couldn'tget out of my own way and just have fun.
Let it all go.
I guess it'll probably work out.
So that's how she starts the session.I'm listening.
All right. Where are we going?What's she going to tell us?
So I asked her. What did she dream?
(45:27):
She tells me I had a dream
that was really hard to remember,but I think I got it.
It was about a password.
I think I know this is hard to follow.
I go back to somethinglike an old neighborhood, and
I realize that there is a zeroin a password that I need.
And I feel like this is whythings can't go right for me in my life.
(45:47):
Maybe it was a percentage
sign or an ampersand,but I think it meant the same thing.
It still meant zero in the passwordthat I needed and that was it.
It's a short dream.
I started with short dreams.
I know everybody is familiarwith the long epic we've all them,
but for the sake of our discussion,
I also wanted to start with somethat you can wrap your head around.
(46:09):
You don't get lost in right away.
You can follow these.
And this is a beautiful one.
It's economical,but it really gets to the point.
I again ask her, Just tell me what comesto mind about your dream and that.
Okay.
And she was quiet for a whileand she said, Well,
it makes me feel like maybe I'mnot just not worth anything.
(46:31):
Like, am I really is zero.
I mean, that is crushing, but maybeI feel that deep down I'm not sure.
I feel like
sometimes I have a lot of confidenceand then other times it's in the toilet.
I worry, Can I really dothe jobs I'm trying to get?
Am I just a fake?
I've done well in the past, but it is
(46:52):
like I can't consistentlyhold the feeling that I can do it.
And I get so anxious
and I ask her, what was the password for?
And she said, I think it was so thatI could get back into the old neighborhood
or the old house,like I had to punch in a code.
But my mind started with in my mindit started with a zero
(47:14):
and it just hits me in the dreamor right when I wake up.
That's it. That's the problem.
My code is a zero.
It starts with a zero.
Now I'm moving through this with her.
I'm reading it a little faster than it wasgoing, and I'm certainly sitting
with the feelings because the feelingscoming up are big here.
(47:35):
And you want this.
This is where all the action is.
It's right there in the dreamthat brings up a feeling.
Later, I ask her, Why are you goingback to the old neighborhood?
I don't even know why that would be.
Maybe it's the first house where we live.
Maybe where I was born.
I'm not sure it seems like it.
Or a combination of a few old homes.
(47:56):
I don't think I get a good look at theneighborhood, but I know it's an old one.
I go back with a mission.
I think I wasn't just going backto look around.
I was trying to get somethingto find something.
I'm alone and walking around.
I think there's a code saying, you know,one of those things that sits on the door
where you punch in the codelike it's modern, but the house is old.
(48:20):
I met the front door and I realizeall of this is about the password.
Now, I will say, of course,what's running through my mind
is, my gosh,look at what she's telling me.
And she's felt it right.This woman is intuitive.
She already got it. I'm a zero. What?
What does this mean for me?
She's she's already felt that right now.
(48:40):
That's amazing.
And she happens to just be very intuitive.
I didn't have to make a big leap therefor her.
Of course, the other thing I'm listeningfor, right, is things aren't going well.
What she's upset about this is nowI have to also be thinking, right.
Is is this a complaint about the treatmentto what's here now?
I think here
(49:01):
you don't want to spend too much timeon the complaint about the treatment.
Not that that isn't importantand may absolutely come up later.
But here she's given ussuch a big, important piece
that I thinkyou want to focus your energy there.
So I said,
I think you're going back
to the old neighborhood, the old house,which is really your mother.
That's the old house where you started.
(49:21):
And you're saying that being there meantyou had to be a zero like she was.
That is the passwordand why you feel you're a zero
and can't get ahead in your life.
And the patient was quiet.
And finally she said, That makes me cry.
I think my mom's parentswere so hard on her,
they didn't treat herlike they treated her other siblings.
(49:43):
She was considered the pretty one.
They just wanted her to be pretty,but not to know anything.
They figured they could get rid of herby marrying her off.
I think it just left herwith no real self-confidence
and no feeling that she had somethingto contribute or to do in the world.
I think she's always a bit embarrassedaround her peers that she worked
(50:04):
but never felt she had a careerlike a lot of her friends.
Like she didn't feel she could or should.
I think my dad liked that she worked,but I also think
he wasn't threatened by her jobsbecause they were just jobs to her
and not a passion or somethingthat would take her somewhere.
And I said the night outshould have been fun.
But if you're a zero, you're not worthy.
(50:27):
It will color all kinds of thingsbecause this imprint
keeps you from your true potential.
The dream says Firstyou have to be a zero your mother.
So we have to see all the waysin which that has formed your life.
So that is her imprint.That's her imprint.
Now, what we will see many sessions awayis that she has more than one imprint.
(50:50):
There's one that's hidden,
and we're not going to get to itfor a long time in the treatment.
But this is going to be the main imprint
that she's wrestling within this section of the treatment.
And does she need to come to terms
with this onebefore she can address the other imprints.
That's going to be up to her unconscious.
(51:11):
She's brought this one up now.
Now we know about it. Right.
So she said,look here, here's one pair of handcuffs.
This is something that's going tohold me back because I have to do my life
the way my mother's done. Her life.
And I don't feel my motherhas really lived up to her full potential.
She wasn't supported in doing that.
Her parents didn't even want to educateor just kind of go
(51:34):
be a pretty face and have no substance.
Well, okay, but how happy and satisfiedcan your mother be
that she didn't get to dowhat she might have done in the world?
What a common story for women.
What a common story for women.
Hey, women, you get to be a zero,maybe be pretty.
(51:55):
Go have some kids. great.
Keep the status quo.
Go Feel like a zero.
We're not going to educate youher support you.
And this is, you know,not that long ago, right? Get a job.
That's cute.
That's cute. Isn't that nice? Yeah.
And then go have the babies.
So feel we're not going to support youin feeling about yourself.
And then carry this on to those babies.
(52:17):
Right?
And then you go and have babiesfeeling this way.
I'm a zero.
I'm a zero. Amazing.
We talked about imprintsbefore I sat there.
Simple.
You know, Dr.
Bill is always sayingthey're really simple.
They're one sentence things. Here it is.
Be a zero like your mother.
So you can seeshe would have to be put to sleep.
(52:40):
How else?
Okay, I've got to be a zero.
So any feelings, any thoughts,you know, of of real substance
that I have,I better start putting them to sleep.
Right.
So that's what in partthe sleep was covering up.
Yeah.
Don't to know that.
Don't know that below that go to sleepWhy don't you.
Because otherwise you're going to realizethat you know.
You're going to make this discovery.Then what do you do?
(53:00):
Well then you might be angrywith me, family,
all the characters,but certainly a mother who unwittingly.
I want to be clear about this.
This is all unknown.
We are all doing it.
And by the way, menare passing on imprints, too.
It's just that the mothers comes firstbecause that's where the baby starts.
And mothers are passing these imprintson to their boys and their girls.
(53:25):
Absolutely.
Everybody's getting oneand it's all unknown.
That's the point of this.And the reason you need a dream.
I don't know that she was going to get to,I'm actually supposed to be a zero
by telling me that she wasn'tgetting offered job position
she thought were a sure thingand that she was having a bad time
on a really nice datethat some guy took her on.
(53:47):
There's real problems in the world.What is this?
But when you get underneath you go,wait a minute, The life isn't going right
for really good reasonand you have no idea.
All of this is under thereuntil you get to the dream.
And that was what Dr.
Bail wanted everybody to see.
Used the dream pointed in word.
(54:09):
Get to know the territory
and you're going to find out what shacklesyou're wearing.
It's awesome.
And you make it seem so simple.I just love it.
It's just we have all this information
running through usand most of us never access it.
What an opportunity this provides, right?
Every night you go to sleepand this kind of stuff is being given
(54:35):
right there.
It's right there.
Now, this is like a cliffhanger,I suppose.
Well, this is a cliffhanger.
I wanted to at least let people see.
All right, look, we've got a personwho's asleep and part of being asleep
meant and the reason whyshe was put to sleep unconsciously,
nobody said, hey, you go to sleep,you're not allowed to know anything.
(54:57):
But this is what happens amongsthuman beings.
We are always unconsciously communicatingand telling
people what they can doand say, whether overt.
Sometimes, you know, it's very overt,but often it's just silent
but you know, it
you know, you can't step out of linein whatever way that is, unconsciously.
So she went to sleep and part of whyshe was asleep so that she didn't know
(55:20):
she was supposed to be zero.
Now this is out right now.
Her unconscious has heard thisand she's going to do
whatever her mindis going to do with this knowledge.
And we're going to hopefullyget to come back and look and see.
All right, Now what?
So you learn this.
What are you supposed to do with this?
How how does this start to change things?
(55:42):
And hopefully we'll get to see thatin subsequent sessions.
So dream number three, Dream number four
will talk about thosein an episode upcoming. Yes.
Because people want to see it. All right.
You do all of this work if they're goingto subject themselves to coming to therapy
and talking somebody and rememberingtheir dreams, what are they doing it for?
(56:03):
And Dr.
Bail really thought you're doing itso that you can learn who you really are,
Who who is this womanif she doesn't have to be asleep
and doesn't have to be a zero.
What a gift to humanity she can bewhen she can operate from her true
unencumbered self.
Right? Like the rest of us.
What a gift to humanity we can all be.
(56:25):
And in the waysthat we can change the world.
It sounds so sort of overwhelmingor glorious or farfetched,
but it's the only way.
If you imagine that somewherethis woman is really angry
because she wasn't allowed to be her trueself.
Where does that anger go?
(56:45):
Because if feelings
aren't allowed in the family,she's not going to be angry with them.
It's got to go. Somewhere,but it's going to go somewhere.
And now we're starting to get the roots ofwhy we go to war.
Where is it going to go?
Who's going to be the aggressor
or the group or the personthat one imagines really did the harm?
(57:08):
If your mind has to be asleepto knowing where it really came from,
nobody outside the family made her a zeroand put her to sleep.
That all happened very close to home.
But if you can't talk about it,it's got to go somewhere else.
It doesn't go away.
It doesn't go away.
Well, thank you so much.
(57:29):
I'm completely intrigued and can't waitto talk about dream number three with you.
Really appreciate all the effortput into sharing this with us.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you for letting me show
how powerful a tool this can really be.
I hope that came to people that you justdon't get to know any of this
(57:52):
until you see that thingwe all do every single night, that dream.
Well, I'm intrigued. And if I am, I'm.
I know our audience is. So again,thank you.
And thank you allfor watching and listening.
And be sure to come backbecause it's intriguing
and follow us, Ask us questions.
(58:12):
We're here. See you next time.
Hi, I'm Cynthia Marks.
I head up the HolisticPsychoanalysis Foundation
established by my late husband, Dr.
Bernard Bail.Welcome to And Now Love,
Dr. Loren Weinerjoins us today to talk about dreams.
We are thrilled to have her with usand cannot wait to dive into a dream
(00:27):
or two, talk about interpretationsand how individuals can use their dreams
to delve into their unconsciousand discover their best selves.
So far, we've been talking about Dr.
Bails theory very generally.
Today, Loren and I are so excitedto share the particulars of a patient's
(00:47):
journey toward a better lifethrough dream interpretation.
As you follow along,you will discover the ways in which Dr.
Bails theory absolutely appliesto each and every one of us.
Without a doubt,we can all become our best selves
and live lives that are fulfillingand meaningful, both as individuals
(01:10):
and as an integral part of humanityat large.
We will start with the first dreamof one patient beginning her therapy.
We will continue with hersubsequent dreams
and you will see progress being madein addressing and removing trauma
with the ultimate goalof finding one's true self.
(01:33):
Hi, Loren.
Thank you so. Much for having me.
I'm so excited.
And this is really going to bean interesting session.
We're finally here.
I am so excited to share this.
We've been walking around this and now.
Right.
Actually going to have our viewersand listeners participate.
(01:54):
Right? Right.
We're finally at thewhat the whole point of this
is, is to show how our dreams help us.
What they tell us about who we areand where we can go.
Okay.
I mean, I already have questions,but I'm running off.
Okay.I can't wait to hear what you have to say.
Yeah.
So today, what I'd like to dois talk about a patient.
(02:15):
And this patient is
a young woman, latetwenties, figuring out her life.
And this isn't.
When you said trauma in the intro,this isn't a person where the trauma is
overt.
We will get to dreams with peoplewho have that in their history.
This is just a person who I thinkif you saw her on the street
(02:36):
or met her somewhere, youyou as a regular person.
And I think she herself wouldn't saythere's any trauma here.
But we all have some kind of drama.
We all have some kind of trauma.
And that's the underlying piece of Dr.
Bails theory,is that actually there is a trauma.
It starts at the beginning.
It is what happenswhen we receive an imprint.
(02:59):
And just to recap, an imprintis the unwanted, unprocessed,
unconscious feelings, thoughts, ideas
about ourself that we all carry,but especially that women carry
that is transferred to the babyduring the pregnancy.
(03:21):
It's unknown to everybody, but all of thisnegative content, negative feelings,
negative experiences get put into the baby
and it actually splits the baby's mind.
You know, he'll say, How do you know this?
We will see it in dreams.
But it splits the baby's mind and the babybecause this idea is felt
(03:42):
to be so painful emotionally, so painful.
What's it? And walls it off.
And basicallywe're never going there again.
So now we've got this part of the mindthat is separate
and not inactive.
Separate.
The wish is that itno longer impacts us, but it does.
(04:06):
In fact, it impacts everything we do.
So we've got this imprintand it really is a trauma.
This is the first trauma.
So we are all walking aroundhaving already experienced a trauma.
And then the question is, okay,what kind of trauma did you get?
What was involvedin all of those feelings?
What did it look like, given your mother,
(04:29):
her history and her ancestors?
What did that all look likeand what did it do to you?
What cost?
What happens to youwhen you have to experience this blow
wall it off, and then try to go onwith your life as though it didn't happen?
So we all have this, thereforewe're all traumatized.
(04:49):
Now, I don't want to minimize.
Then later,big overt traumas for people. Yes.
But people have to know, in fact,that sits on top of a trauma
that's already happened, that happensto a person who's already compromised.
In essence.
So you can see why that's going toto split the personality
(05:10):
or impactthe person even more than it might.
So it's almost as if you havea bigger exposure to the possible
of some serious trauma if you aren't ableto overcome this normal trauma.
Right. And you definitely do. There'sno question.
It's like it hits you on the fault lineand you don't know
(05:31):
what the original trauma is for anyonebecause we don't get t shirts.
I wish it were that simple. Right?
You know, here's my imprint.
We don't.
So you never know where something'sgoing to hit.
What's already sitting there quietly.
This is a woman who I think,you know, as I'm saying,
would generallynot be considered a traumatized person.
(05:52):
And she ended up in my officebecause she had imagined
certain plans for her life.
You know, I'm going to grow up.I'm going to get this career.
I'm going to end up in a relationship.
I'm going to have a family.
And it wasn't working out.
It didn't mean she was able to to goto school and get an advanced degree.
(06:12):
Again, looks like she's got everythingmade, dated.
People had relationships.
Nothing was quite working out.
Again, you'd say, okay, what'swhat's the big complaint?
And I thinkshe felt that way about herself.
But I'm not. Happy.
But everything seems okay.
Can I really complain about this?
Can I really try to make it different?
Am I entitled to that? All of that.
(06:34):
And do I know we want to get into this,but do most people
come to youwith a similar set of circumstances?
Not really.
Big, scary trauma,but just kind of these familiar issues
and we're not ableto get to the bottom of them on our own.
It runs the gamut.
You know, a lot of times
people show up in your officebecause something big has happened,
(06:57):
a divorce, familysplit, depression, anxiety.
I'm going homeevery night and I'm you know, I can't eat.
I'm terrifiedor I'm not getting out of bed suddenly.
And so it really runs the gamut.
I'm starting herebecause I think this may make sense
to a lot of people who wouldn't think,this is something you go to therapy for.
(07:19):
I think this is somethingthat a lot of people just live with.
And in a way, it's akin to saying
I'm just going to limp aroundwith this sprained ankle or a broken leg.
But everybody does.
We all have broken legs.
So it's just a broken leg. Right.
When you talk to somebody, if you didn'thave a dream, it's all right.
I mean, you know, okay,you got some complaints. I get it.
(07:40):
You know, lifedidn't quite work out the way you wanted.
Okay, It. Goes.
And then you get dreams.
And then the dreams start to show you.
wait a minute.
This is more than you thought.
And there's a reason this is happening.
There's a reason you feel the way you do,and there's something we can do about it.
And it becomes amazingly clear.
(08:00):
If you're lucky,it becomes amazingly clear.
What I did do is pick some sessionsthat illustrate
some big ideas that patients come inwith unconscious, honestly.
So these are the things that they haveno idea about when they start treatment.
But that become clear, clear to meas the treatment goes along.
(08:21):
But of course, my job is to make itclear to the patient. Yes.
One of the biggest things
that has to happen in a treatment isyou have to have a really
get a really good pictureof what happened in your life.
What's the emotional truthof what happened in my life?
Because if you don't know your story,you can't change it.
You don't know what you're fighting.
(08:43):
that's so easy to understand.
This woman,you know, was not happy in her life.
I'd say she just wasn't satisfied.
She had tried all these things.
It should have gone the way she wanted,and it wasn't working out.
Sort of just didn't know what to do.
Where do you turn? Where do you go?
And she was lucky enoughthat she had a friend who was talking
about having seen a colleague of mine
(09:05):
who worked with dreamsand was finding it interesting.
And my patient, well,I'm interested in this.
It luckily, right.
It just caught her attention.
And so she ended up in my office.
And I think when she came,I think even she wasn't sure.
Should she really be here?
You know, is as you were saying,is this really enough to come see
(09:26):
somebody about to talk aboutthis is am I just complaining?
Is there really a problem here andsomething that could be fixed addressed?
And of course, the answer was yes.
Yes. And how fortunate
that she was able to come to youbecause you know how to do this.
Yeah. Luckily, we could get to the dreams.
What happens?
(09:46):
Typically,I'm going to go through some typical stuff
for those peoplewho have never been in therapy.
One of the things that I thinkmost therapists do is
you want the patient to start talking.
You want to hear what's on someone's mind.
So sometimes in the beginningI might ask a few more questions.
(10:08):
Generally,I want to get somebody's history.
I want to, you know,
first and foremost, I want to understandwhat brings them into my office.
Why are you here?
What's been your your experience?
I might want to knowif they've had prior therapy.
If so, what did you learn?
So I'm asking these sorts of questions,
but mostlyI just want the patient to start talking.
(10:31):
Tell me your story.
Tell me this on your mind.
That'sprobably going to tell you more than them
just sort of blatantly saying, I'm herebecause of this, this and this.
They may say,I don't even know why I'm here.
But once they start to tell their story,you can get a glimpse of why
they're there. Right? Right.
So I'm I'm just listening in a wayto what the unconscious pulls up for them.
(10:52):
So the unconscious is always going.
It starts right away
and it's going to have the patient talkabout certain things.
Right.
And when I say that, it means, you know,certain things will just come to mind.
Like you might end up talkingmore about your brother and your sister
than you know how bad your car is running.
I mean.
(11:12):
Yes, hopefully you get two thingsthat are important.
Anything's interesting to me.
Meaning if somebody were to suddenly starttalking about something like that
and my car in this, I'm thinking, okay,why is this coming up?
Right. Right.
So I'm always listening to sort of
think aboutwhat is somebody talking about and why?
(11:33):
What is what are they trying to tell me?
What do they want to show me?
They chose this to bring to me. Exactly.
And this is a beginning, right?
So in a first session, we'relooking at a beginning now, keeping Dr.
Bail's theory in mind for our purposeshere.
He's saying,but everything happens at the start.
(11:54):
And that's true for therapy, too.
That's good to keep in mind. Right.
So a first session is really important.
And what somebody starts withis really important
because this is the start.
I say all thatand I didn't bring the first session
because what I wanted to really show
was something that a lot of people
don't know about themselves
(12:16):
but become clearwhen you start listening to their dreams.
And one of the things that you will see in
this session is a piece of what is holdingthis woman back in her life.
And this is a few months into treatment,which means she's coming.
We're talking dreams are coming up,and she's starting to learn that
(12:39):
her unconscious life is really important
in how her waking life goes.
Through the course of this.
Does she becomegreatly interested in that?
Like have a thirst for more and more?
Yes. Over time, though, you know,I don't know that
this is immediately like, wow,I didn't know this was going on.
(13:00):
This is amazing.
I think at first it's reallyhow can I trust this?
How much stock do I put in thisthat feels right.
But nobody's ever talked to me about thissort of thing before.
So what do I do with this? Right.
And how did we end up on thisinstead of that and that or that?
Right.In terms of an interpretation. Right.
And and I think one of the thingsthat comes out
(13:22):
in the beginning of a therapyis all of the family history.
And sometimes people get to thatright away.
They can see the connection and sometimespeople don't they don't realize
that there's a connectionor they've not thought about
certain dynamics in the family in the way
that it becomes clear
in a treatment have impacted them right.
(13:45):
So someone may come in and say, well,my family, you know,
thinking that is this is going to bean important part of what you talk about.
We're all we're fine.
I don't really see any issues.So where else should we go?
But right there,you already know something, right?
This person doesn'teven want to go there. Yes.
So you're listening all the timeand that's a clue.
And my question is, are they allowedto think about the family that way?
(14:09):
Are we allowed toimagine that it wasn't perfect?
This is something where you might complain
to your best friend about,You know, my mom said this to me again,
but it's another thing to come in and tella professional I have a complaint right.
And a lot of people grew upand so did the patient in homes
where complaining aboutyour parents is forbidden.
(14:31):
Yes. You don't do that. Yeah.
They are feeding you, clothingyou, educating you, whatever else
they're doing,and you really don't complain.
So the idea isn't that you're going
to come into therapy and all we do istalk about your complaints,
but in a way, having the freedomto suddenly have a different kind
of conversation where your mind is allowedto notice things and notice
(14:55):
the things that didn't feel good to it,and then talk about them.
In a safe placeand not feel like you have to feel bad
about yourself for saying these. Things.
People will feel bad about themselvesif that's the dynamic, right?
If you weren't supposed to, then
how do you come in and starttalking about the dirty laundry?
That might take time.
(15:16):
People often will say, Well,
why am I talking about stuff that happenedso long ago?
It's not relevant,or I don't think about my parents anymore.
I've got my own kids now.I don't think about them.
Why Why are we spending time on that?
And a lot of timeswhat you have to do is just let the dreams
pull the important piecesand the dream will lead you
(15:38):
where you're supposed to go,tell you where to dig.
So in the first few sessions,I want to just give a little history
on this woman so people can kind of relateto her a bit and understand
we're going to call her Jessica. Okay.
Okay.
So Jessica comes in and she tells mesome history about her family.
In the beginning,when she first comes to see me,
(15:58):
she does give me some backgroundabout the family.
She told me that her mother's sideis from the east Coast, from a big family.
Jessica saysthat her grandparents were people
she saw a few timesa year, were generally nice people.
She did say she knew they weren'talways that nice to her mother
when she was growing up, but by the timethey were her grandparents,
(16:19):
they were nice enough.
And and that was that.
Let's see, she knew they were strictwith her mother when she was growing up.
And she also knew that girls in the familywere not treated equally
to the boys in the family,so that the boys were educated.
They paid for their education.
The girls were not.
The money just wasn't there for that.
(16:41):
And they were sort of expectedto get married
and the husbandswould take care of things.
She told me that her father was
from a wealthy familybut who had lost all their money.
And so there was that shame and sadness
and upsetsort of flowing through the family.
She did note that a lot of discordin that family, you know, siblings
(17:02):
weren't talking to each other,
grandparents that had been falling out,you know, all sorts of things.
Then she told me about herimmediate family.
And one of the things that she didfocus on who and a person who was talked
about more in the beginning of treatmentwas her older brother.
She was the middle child,had a younger sister and an older brother.
(17:23):
And the older brotherwas a thorn in her side.
A lot of timeshe wasn't all that nice to anybody.
I think a smart guy, good sense of humor,but not very nice to people.
And she felt that and and nobodyreally talked about it in the family.
He just sort of did away with it,got away with it, and then the rest of
(17:45):
the history would sort of emergeas the treatment unfolds.
So I'm going to jump into the firstsession.
We're going to talk about it'snot the first session in treatment.
Okay. So she's
generally got the hang of thingsat this point, though,
when somebody starts talking, usually,you know, I just if they don't immediately
(18:07):
start, I just tell them, you know, startwith whatever's on your mind.
And then I try to be quiet.
So even though I may aska lot of questions about dreams,
I want to be quiet.
If I'm able to in a session enoughto let the person
just talk, say whatever comes to mind.
(18:28):
So she does and she starts and,
you know, just sort of talkingabout the things in her life.
She said things are going fine.
I'm swamped at work.
So much stuff for work to finish.
But I'm I'm close. It's almost done.
I felt a little overwhelmed, I guess.
So you start getting a little hint.
(18:48):
There are a lot of loose endsto tie up for the case.
And then some social stuff.A bridal shower, some parties.
I'm supposed to help outwith food and decorating, and I can't
start thinking about thatuntil I finish everything else up.
I guessI'm more than a little overwhelmed.
Then she switches topics.
My friend Dave is still around.
I feel like he would like more from me,but it isn't to say that I'm not sure
(19:11):
that I want to take it there.
Things are complicated though,
and I really value our friendship,so I don't know.
Is it worth it?
I don't know that I think he would be agood match for me romantically long term.
He's a great guy on paper,
but I don't know if we really wantthe same things.
I also don't know how long I can keep itin the friendzone without it getting weird
or one of us moving onand actually starting to date someone.
(19:34):
And I can'timagine what that would be like.
I guess I don't know what I'm doing.
I want his attention, but I'm not sureI really want to date him.
Does that make me an awful person?
I'm confusedand really unsure about what to do.
I feel like I go through this a lot.
I like a guy, but then I'm not sure.
Is he good for me?
Should I do it?Or is it better to wait until?
(19:55):
I'm really sure.
I feel like I don't knowif I'll ever feel like it's right.
So maybe I should just try it and see.
Wow, that's a familiar scenariofor so many people.
Yeah.
And then she saidthere were a few tough moments this week.
I've been noticing that there'sjust this weird vibe in the family,
like all this stuff goes down and I feellike it doesn't really get talked about.
(20:18):
It's all kind of under the radar,but I notice it now, and I
tried to say something the other nightand it was not well-received.
We were all out for dinnerand I just noticed that
there was these jabs that my brotherwould make towards my sister
and towards my mom.
My dad would just ignore itand sip his wine.
And I felt like it's the same stuffI've been telling you about,
(20:39):
but it's bothering me more now.
I'm starting to see it more.
So I just made a small commentabout how he was kind of being an ass
and he didn't really say anything,
but I could tellmy comment was not well-received
and like he didn't want to be called outfor being a mean guy,
but he was being a mean guy.
He isn't always, but he can just cutwith these little comments
(21:01):
and then he sort ofsits there like they aren't mean.
I didn't do anything.I didn't say anything wrong.
Get over it.
And I asked the patient,Where do you think you learned to do that?
And she thought for a moment, maybe
my dad, he used to do thatmore when we were younger.
He's mellowed over the years,so he's different now.
But maybe my brother took his place.
(21:23):
It isn't overt in his commentsor always couched in humor, but they cut
my sisterseem relieved to have me say something
because I don't think she ever wantsto really start with him.
She isn't as quick witted as he is,and I honestly think she's afraid to start
with him.
But that meansshe just has to take his shit.
And I asked because this was at a familygathering where everybody was there.
(21:43):
Did your mom say anything?
And she said, No.
I think she's always afraidto get in the middle of the kids arguing
like she worries one of us will be hurtthinking she's taking sides.
But instead, maybe we're all just upsetthat she never chimes in
like we would have to drag her into really get her to referee.
So I've gotten a sense ofwhat's been going
(22:05):
on, what's on the patient's mindthis session.
That's a lot. That's a lot, right?
So if you're the therapist, you'rethinking, what's the most important thing
Where do I you know,if I'm going to say something about this
at some point in the session,what do I choose?
What do I pick? What's the most important?
Well, I don't know that I would knowat that point.
(22:25):
I might have some inklings.
This sounds
like we're going from up heredown to here.
All right,So I'm watching the progression of
not only what she talks about, the affect,what feelings start coming up.
Right.
And in the beginning, she starts to itgoes from everything's fine to O8.
Maybe I'm overwhelmed.
(22:46):
wait, maybe there's some stuffin the family I'm starting to notice.
wait, something happened.
I ask her if she had a dream.
She said she had a dream last night.
In the dream she was at her friendRobin's house and it was 11 a.m.
in the dream.
She remembered that and I think or hear
from other people in the housethat she's still sleeping.
(23:07):
Robin's still sleeping.
I get angry like she needs to wake up.
But then she comes over to meand she is awake.
There are two of her.
I think she's wearing a long caftanwith a big chunky necklace.
I think I'm surprisedthere are two of her.
We're in a big house,I think, and that's the dream.
(23:28):
So what I always
do is ask people,just tell me whatever comes to your mind
about the dream, and I want to leave itas open as possible.
So let's see what the unconscious wants
said so
she says,because she's she's used to this now
for a few months and she gets the ideathat she's going to tell me a dream.
(23:50):
I'm going to ask her
what comes to her mind,and then she's going to tell me
whatever thoughts as much as she can do itwithout censoring,
which is called free association,Just tell me whatever comes to mind.
No censoring.
Well, if if possible.
So she says, I have no ideawhy I was dreaming about Robin.
(24:11):
I haven't seen or talked to herin quite a few years, maybe four or five.
I like her.
I think we're like in some ways
and people confused ussometimes in elementary school.
But I think she's much more type-Aand things seem to go better
for her than for me.
I kind of admire her, though.
I don't think I wouldswitch places with her.
(24:31):
There are some things I would like.
She's really good.
Socially,she's more comfortable than I am.
She walks into a room and owns it.
I definitely don't feel that confident.
I feel like I can talk to peoplepretty easily, but I'm nervous underneath.
I don't think she is,or it really doesn't show.
Thingsjust seem to come easily for her to like.
(24:54):
She never seems to be working that hard
and she's enjoying her life andI feel like I'm never quite where she is.
I'm just not as comfortable in my skinas she is.
I'm not sure that it reads that way.
Like I know
I look out going to everyone elsewho knows, maybe she feels the same way.
And then I ask her,why is she asleep in the dream?
(25:16):
So I'm now going to,after I've heard her general statement,
I may start asking aboutspecific pieces of the dream.
If she hasn't commented on them,even if she has, I might go back to them.
If I feel I need more information.
And so I'm now thinking about the dreamand seeing how does this fit into her
life?
(25:36):
What in her worldmade this dream this week?
What does she want to know?
What does her mind want to know to grow?
Right.
What's it going to tell us about herselfso she can move forward?
So I ask her, because this is obviouslythe biggest piece of the dream
is Robin's asleep.
So why is Robin asleep in the dream?
(25:59):
I don't know. I can't remember that part,
But I'm walking aroundlooking for her and I'm angry.
I'm upset about it, and I'm not sure whyit would make me that upset, but I was.
I felt like it was already late morning
and I guess I was wanting to talk to her.
Or maybe we were supposed to go somewhere.
I'm not quite sure,but she wasn't up and it bothered me.
(26:22):
I ask her why there are two two robins.
I have no idea about that.
Both in the same outfit too,which is something she would wear.
It was chic in a very casual way,but there was no acknowledgment
that she had been asleepor kept me waiting.
There were other people thereand I felt like I knew them in the dream,
but I couldn't recall who they were oncethey woke up.
(26:44):
I think they were friends, though.
Like maybe we were all goingto go somewhere together.
And I asked her,So why do you think you're dreaming about
someone being asleep?
Who do you feel is asleep?
And she said, Well, that's a tough one.
I mean, maybe my mom is asleep,or at least she keeps her feelings
kind of hidden.
But she's like that in her family.
(27:04):
Everyone keeps it all inside.
They don't really show any feelings.
And you have to really guesswhere they stand.
I think she reads kind of light and breezyto people because on the outside
she's smiling and friendly,but you never get below the surface.
It just feels like she is sweet and chattybut doesn't go deep.
She'll clam upwhen I try to bring up anything deep.
(27:27):
She doesn't like itand I know that I can feel her shut down.
So there was more back and forthI don't want to go through.
The entire sessionwill lose people here, but
generally I wanted to give you a sense ofwhat's happening.
There's a back and forth.I'm asking questions.
The patient is now reflectacting on the parts of her dream.
(27:49):
Her unconscious made this dream. Why?Right.
This is this is the big question.
I think it sounds like you are Robin,you've been asleep because your mother
didn't want to go deep,so you had to put your feelings to sleep.
They weren't invited in.
It sounds like you get a similar messagefrom your brother,
(28:10):
who may be a stand in for your father.
He's allowed to make cutting commentsand nobody stops him.
And when you say something,there's no support for it.
The message is that you being awake to seeall of this is not a good thing.
And it would be betterif you would just go back to sleep.
So in that dream, you're angrythat you've been put to sleep.
(28:31):
The good news is there's nowalso a part of you that is awake.
And then I want to seewhat the patient does with it.
I'm looking to see does she feel it?
Does she Tell me that sounds crazy.
You're totally off base or.
Yes, this makes sense to meor somewhere in the middle.
And I'm watchingbecause if I get a disagreement
(28:52):
in some way, I have to think that am I off
that I hit the most important piece,that I misunderstand something?
Or is this to to rebellious, to talk aboutare we allowed to know this?
So I have to see where a patient is withany given interpretation of the dream.
We talk a little bit moreand she could understand it
(29:14):
and she could say, I'm really upset.
I'm really upset that
a part of me was put to sleepand she could see it now.
And I think she had built up enoughtrust from us going over previous dreams
that she could seethat she's been asleep to her whole life.
And this is why things don't go well.
(29:37):
This is why it isn't a satisfying life.
You're not even awake in your own life.
How do you pick the right person?
How do you make the right choiceabout a career
or where you're going to work or what cityyou want to live in or anything?
If you're asleep to your own lifeand you're asleep because feelings
were not really welcome in the family.
(30:01):
And this is going to open upmore as the treatment goes on.
But we get the hint of it here.
There were a lot of additional piecesI might have interpreted.
I went to this, Robin, is you
because I want to wake her up
because the first thing I want to dobefore we get to what's your imprint,
before we get to other things,according to this session,
(30:24):
the main thing I have to get to isyou are asleep in your own life.
And so you can't explore any of thisuntil you're. Awake.
That's it, right?
I need a person who is awakeor at least engaged in waking up.
And to do that,she has to first know she's asleep.
Otherwise she doesn't know.She has to wake up. Right?
I need her to start being engagedin waking herself up
(30:47):
so that there is somebody tothen talk to in the rest of the treatment
to make the interpretations tothere is an awake person to receive them.
So that becomes that's whythat's the main thing I want to interpret.
There's a lot there.
You know, other people may say, well,you didn't go through the transference.
This is when you're going to talk to meand put all of your previous
(31:12):
important relationships and the feelingsabout them in the people in them onto me.
And you're going.
To relate to melike I am some person in your history,
probably your mother or fatheror a sibling or aunt or uncle.
And that's really important that is thereand we will get to it in a session.
I will interpret something in a dream
(31:33):
and take up the transferenceif it is not clear in the dream.
But here the main thing isshe's got to wake up sound the alarm.
Step one. Step one.
Now she's already doing it a bitbecause we get as there's two.
The question,of course, becomes in this dream
and I don't knowthat I would say this yet, right?
We've got two. Who are the two.
(31:55):
So there's two parts of her.
We've got a part that's waking up.
Right.
Interesting.
In the long caftanand big chunky necklace.
And in my mind,I thought this is a nightgown.
Right.
And she's telling me thatspeaking up the throat chakra
with this big chunky necklace is the placewhere the trouble is.
(32:15):
A lot of weight here. A lot of weighthere. That's right.
Then I'm also saying, well, this.And she said it.
This may be her in her mother.
And I take that that's very important.
She said it.
I wrestle with that a little.
Which one do I want to interpret first?
I went with herbecause I want to wake her up.
But absolutely, there's no questionthat the mother also put herself to sleep.
(32:38):
And that will likelyshow up down the road after.
So anyway.
It showed up actually in this sessionand I touched on it, but I didn't hit that
as hard as the first piece,which is she's got to wake up.
And even though it did show up,you can still it'll come up again
at a more opportune time to address it,perhaps.
I guarantee thatif this is what's happening, it's
(32:59):
going to show itselfmany, many, many, many, many times.
And I love that you say I guarantee.
Yeah, I guarantee it.
I know it will,because it's a central issue and we dream
about our central issuesover and over and over.
We work them through, we pull them apart.
We hear something like your sleeping.
And while she may go, okay,this is really like, whoa.
(33:23):
And I have to think aboutam I really asleep and wrestle with this?
And then she may embrace itsometimes and deny it.
No. Right.
Don't wake me up. See?
And already there was some trouble therebecause I'm waking her up, right?
I am talking about these things and it'sgetting her in trouble in her family.
Yes. Now I'm a troublemaker.
(33:44):
Right? Right.
So I know at some pointthe fact that I am a troublemaker
will also show itself somewhere.
You're not panicked about that.
That is part of a treatment.
But you're going to have to make sureyou're on top of it,
because if that builds too much,I'm too much of a troublemaker.
And I'm not helping her with thator making her see where
(34:06):
that might show itself.
Somebody might walk a.
Fine line. There, fine line there.
So I'm giving youa lot of information here because I'm
both telling you what she said, whatI said in the session and also the things
that are always sitting in your mindas you're listening to somebody.
I mean, they're rather natural now,so it just pops up.
(34:26):
But that there is a whole picture
of both the person and the treatmentyou are paying attention to.
So when Jessica realizesthat she's been asleep,
when she's able to agree with thator feel that, did
she look back at her life and say,what a waste, What do I do now?
(34:47):
Or was it more of an opening?
Like, thank goodnessI discovered this and I can move forward
now with some different sort of purposeor with a purpose?
Luckily, the latter for herthat I think she started going,
this is all starting to make sense.
I felt like I was sleepwalking in my life.
And I came here for a reason.And now we're getting there.
(35:09):
And now we're getting there and All right.
So it isn't just mebeing sort of overly sensitive
to all of these places in my lifethat didn't feel good.
It's that there's really something there.
And what's so interestingabout this patient and this dream
and why I wanted to start hereis that there are so many millions
(35:31):
of people walking around asleepand you wouldn't know
because these are busy, productive people,They are doing things
and they may have all kinds of complaints,but everything is well, it's just life.
And yes, some of this is life.
Life isn't necessarilysupposed to be just a fun time always.
But when you you don't knowsomebody is completely asleep
(35:53):
in their own life until you see the dream,you would never know.
I'm not going to get thatif she's just talking to me.
Sure. Right.
And it's a keybecause I can just talk to her.
And if I don't know, she's asleep,how can I ever wake her up?
I can't do it.So that's the beauty of this.
That's the beauty of having a dream, tellyou exactly where you need to go.
(36:15):
And one of the big thingsthat has to happen in a treatment
to give it a chance to succeed. Amazing.
So we're all so goodat managing our lives.
Whatever we think of our lives, it'sas if the only way
you can get to the bottom ofit is through these dreams.
I think that's the idea.
And that'swhy Dr. Baily loved the dream so much.
(36:37):
This was his using the dreamto get to the imprint.
I mean, that was everything for him.
He felt this is really the key
to changing the wayhuman beings understand themselves,
feel about themselves and each other,and then really turning everything inside.
The only way you start to change the world
(36:59):
that we're all so externally focused
and his and you're missing the whole show.
Everything out here is a reenactment
of the internal world for everyone.
And you can imagineif you are asleep in your internal world,
(37:19):
how how many things can really go right?
Maybe you get lucky. Yeah.
When Jessica was sharing her thoughtsabout the man that she was interested?
Do I deserve this?Is this right? I'm not sure.
I mean, that's.
I could just say, Well, she's asleep.
She's not aware of her own feelingsabout that situation in particular.
(37:41):
Exactly.
And so that kind of concept would couldapply to everything in one's existence.
It does all the time that oncewe've had to put ourselves to sleep
because the family, wherever we're
developing, doesn't tolerate it, you know?
And then look, that doesn't meanpeople were awful and ogres.
And what it means is that, you know,there was just this sort of don't
(38:04):
bother me with it. It's too much.
And we're not going to talk aboutthe feelings.
You ask me something,I'm not going deep. Yeah.
And so a child comes away with the messageover and over, Don't do it.
And then you don't know any other way.
You don't know any other wayand you don't know yourself.
Yeah, and this is an example that, yes,I think is very generalizable
(38:26):
because people do this,They have this conversation
with themselvesabout a whole host of things.
It's not just about relationships, it'swhat do I want to study?
What job should I take?I don't know what career path,
what do I do about this problemor that problem?
And the biggest issuethere, in addition to an imprint
and we will get to that, is that you can'tthen access your feelings
(38:51):
enough to use them as a compassand you need them.
You can't always make the best decisionfor yourself because you have no basis
for that decision.
It's all intellectual, you know?
So people have to sit thereand it's like ten things in my pro
lives, ten things in my conscious.Now what?
And there's no tiebreaker.
There's no feeling that says, okay, yeah,you know what?
(39:12):
This is a really good guy.
And I, I am interestedbeyond all of these worries that I have
or I have all these worriesbecause no, he's not the right guy.
Listen to thatand listen to that. It's interesting.
I think when we do our pros and cons,maybe the pros are that big
and the cons are that bigor the other way around,
but you can't even settle with that.
(39:33):
You're like, Well, that one prois probably worth seven of those cons, so.
So you can't even get to the bottom of itthat way.
That's right. Yeah.
I mean circles right?You're running in circles.
And that's the whole pointof being asleep.
People can look in their life.
Where am I running In circles.
Why isn't it going anywhere?What's happening?
And really, it's.
Then can I be in touchwith the deepest part of myself?
(39:56):
How do I feel about this?
And then she also shared that she hadthe experience with her brother.
She knew enough to know thatsome of what he was doing was not okay.
She was feeling thatand she called him out a little bit.
Right? Yeah.
And he shut her downas if she should go back to sleep.
Like, don't even try it.
(40:18):
That's right.
And I think that'swhat probably triggered the dream.
Won't you just go back to sleep?
And so we don't get a forceful dream,right?
This is a very.
I'm going to this nice houseand big and it's easy
and she just happens to be asleepand then I'm enraged.
And even the patient, I don't think Ishould be that angry about this, but I am.
(40:39):
Yeah.
So she was enraged with her brotherfor having shut that down.
But nobody's really going to talkback to the brother and the brother.
She was right. The patient's right.
The brother or I think I might havesaid it in the interpretation.
She's connectedthe brother and the father.
So a lot of the the talk,what becomes clear is a lot of the talk
(41:01):
about the brother.
Well, it is about the brotheralso has a thread,
a tie back to the father,the father who is now more mellow
because he's much olderbut was hell on wheels
when this child was very youngand growing up.
And a tie back to the mother,perhaps because she was silent.
(41:24):
Exactly.
So you can see all the pressure, right?
The brother is overtly sort of like,I'll let you say it, but you get the look.
Don't go there.
And then everybody else is silentand therefore complicit, allowing this.
The mother said, we're not going to talkabout feelings and then doesn't step in.
(41:45):
Right. Doesn't shut this down.
So all of these ways in which this woman
gets the message,your feelings aren't important.
They are frustrating to everybody,quiet down,
go back to sleep and don't rock the boat.
Right. Then we'll all survive.
Well, I'll survive.
Wow. Well, gosh,thank you for all of that.
(42:07):
Do you have more on this first dream?
I have so much more.
No, I don't have more on the first dream.
I think we covered the first dream.
Okay, so we're going to go onto the next session.
This is not the next sessionfor the patient.
We are now more months down the line.
She is continuing to do this.
She finds it useful.
Interesting. It's making sense to her.
(42:29):
That doesn'tmean everything makes sense to her.
There are still lots of questions,but I want to go over this dream because
we finally get to an imprint dream here.
And I think everybody's going to wantto hear what an imprint dream sounds like.
Yes, right. So now there are a few kinds.
Sometimes we get oneswhere you see the imprint being delivered
(42:50):
that is a muchusually a much more violent type dream.
Not always, but generally.
And this is more aboutwhat the imprint is for this person.
I see. Okay.
So this is going to be critical, criticalinformation for this patient to know.
Okay. Okay.
So I'm just going to jump in.
(43:10):
In this session,the patient starts and again,
I am sitting back just letting the patienttell me whatever's on your mind.
When you do that. Yes.
Are you completely open?
You don't have little hints ofwhere you think it should go?
Well, usually that's at the beginning ofthe session, so I don't know anything yet.
Right.
And so every sessionI am sort of saying I have no idea
(43:34):
what's going to be important.
I know the person,but every session is new, right?
So everyone,I have to try my best to just listen
and let whatever comes into my mindcome in to help guide me.
Okay? Okay.
So she says,I've been pretty frustrated this week.
I guess I kind of feel like crap.
(43:56):
I feel like I can't quiteget things moving.
I've been applying for more positionsand I get an immediate response
and it all looks good
and then it kind of stalls or disappearsaltogether, it's killing me.
I just want to find the right place,the right place to be.
It really should not be this hard.
I have friends that are doing so well
and I be doing what they doif I just get a chance.
(44:19):
I just need to get in the door.
I can stay where I am for the momentso it isn't like
I won't have a roof over head,but I want more.
I want a better placewhere I can really grow.
Then she continues,and to make things worse, all of this
career stuff was on my mind and I couldn'tenjoy my date night with Brian.
I'm there, my body was there,but I just couldn't enjoy it.
(44:42):
I was looking forward to this nightfor so long.
It was with a few of our friendsand it was a band
I hadn't seen in a long time.
This should have been a really good nightand I was just not able
to fully appreciate it.
He was so sweet and we went to thisreally nice restaurant before the show
and he was being really romanticand I was just sat inside.
I tried not to show it,but I know he could tell.
(45:04):
And then thinks it's him and I don't wantand I don't love him enough or like,
he didn't plan it. Right.And it's none of that.
It was great. It was just me.
Like I couldn'tget out of my own way and just have fun.
Let it all go.
I guess it'll probably work out.
So that's how she starts the session.I'm listening.
All right. Where are we going?What's she going to tell us?
So I asked her. What did she dream?
(45:27):
She tells me I had a dream
that was really hard to remember,but I think I got it.
It was about a password.
I think I know this is hard to follow.
I go back to somethinglike an old neighborhood, and
I realize that there is a zeroin a password that I need.
And I feel like this is whythings can't go right for me in my life.
(45:47):
Maybe it was a percentage
sign or an ampersand,but I think it meant the same thing.
It still meant zero in the passwordthat I needed and that was it.
It's a short dream.
I started with short dreams.
I know everybody is familiarwith the long epic we've all them,
but for the sake of our discussion,
I also wanted to start with somethat you can wrap your head around.
(46:09):
You don't get lost in right away.
You can follow these.
And this is a beautiful one.
It's economical,but it really gets to the point.
I again ask her, Just tell me what comesto mind about your dream and that.
Okay.
And she was quiet for a whileand she said, Well,
it makes me feel like maybe I'mnot just not worth anything.
(46:31):
Like, am I really is zero.
I mean, that is crushing, but maybeI feel that deep down I'm not sure.
I feel like
sometimes I have a lot of confidenceand then other times it's in the toilet.
I worry, Can I really dothe jobs I'm trying to get?
Am I just a fake?
I've done well in the past, but it is
(46:52):
like I can't consistentlyhold the feeling that I can do it.
And I get so anxious
and I ask her, what was the password for?
And she said, I think it was so thatI could get back into the old neighborhood
or the old house,like I had to punch in a code.
But my mind started with in my mindit started with a zero
(47:14):
and it just hits me in the dreamor right when I wake up.
That's it. That's the problem.
My code is a zero.
It starts with a zero.
Now I'm moving through this with her.
I'm reading it a little faster than it wasgoing, and I'm certainly sitting
with the feelings because the feelingscoming up are big here.
(47:35):
And you want this.
This is where all the action is.
It's right there in the dreamthat brings up a feeling.
Later, I ask her, Why are you goingback to the old neighborhood?
I don't even know why that would be.
Maybe it's the first house where we live.
Maybe where I was born.
I'm not sure it seems like it.
Or a combination of a few old homes.
(47:56):
I don't think I get a good look at theneighborhood, but I know it's an old one.
I go back with a mission.
I think I wasn't just going backto look around.
I was trying to get somethingto find something.
I'm alone and walking around.
I think there's a code saying, you know,one of those things that sits on the door
where you punch in the codelike it's modern, but the house is old.
(48:20):
I met the front door and I realizeall of this is about the password.
Now, I will say, of course,what's running through my mind
is, my gosh,look at what she's telling me.
And she's felt it right.This woman is intuitive.
She already got it. I'm a zero. What?
What does this mean for me?
She's she's already felt that right now.
(48:40):
That's amazing.
And she happens to just be very intuitive.
I didn't have to make a big leap therefor her.
Of course, the other thing I'm listeningfor, right, is things aren't going well.
What she's upset about this is nowI have to also be thinking, right.
Is is this a complaint about the treatmentto what's here now?
I think here
(49:01):
you don't want to spend too much timeon the complaint about the treatment.
Not that that isn't importantand may absolutely come up later.
But here she's given ussuch a big, important piece
that I thinkyou want to focus your energy there.
So I said,
I think you're going back
to the old neighborhood, the old house,which is really your mother.
That's the old house where you started.
(49:21):
And you're saying that being there meantyou had to be a zero like she was.
That is the passwordand why you feel you're a zero
and can't get ahead in your life.
And the patient was quiet.
And finally she said, That makes me cry.
I think my mom's parentswere so hard on her,
they didn't treat herlike they treated her other siblings.
(49:43):
She was considered the pretty one.
They just wanted her to be pretty,but not to know anything.
They figured they could get rid of herby marrying her off.
I think it just left herwith no real self-confidence
and no feeling that she had somethingto contribute or to do in the world.
I think she's always a bit embarrassedaround her peers that she worked
(50:04):
but never felt she had a careerlike a lot of her friends.
Like she didn't feel she could or should.
I think my dad liked that she worked,but I also think
he wasn't threatened by her jobsbecause they were just jobs to her
and not a passion or somethingthat would take her somewhere.
And I said the night outshould have been fun.
But if you're a zero, you're not worthy.
(50:27):
It will color all kinds of thingsbecause this imprint
keeps you from your true potential.
The dream says Firstyou have to be a zero your mother.
So we have to see all the waysin which that has formed your life.
So that is her imprint.That's her imprint.
Now, what we will see many sessions awayis that she has more than one imprint.
(50:50):
There's one that's hidden,
and we're not going to get to itfor a long time in the treatment.
But this is going to be the main imprint
that she's wrestling within this section of the treatment.
And does she need to come to terms
with this onebefore she can address the other imprints.
That's going to be up to her unconscious.
(51:11):
She's brought this one up now.
Now we know about it. Right.
So she said,look here, here's one pair of handcuffs.
This is something that's going tohold me back because I have to do my life
the way my mother's done. Her life.
And I don't feel my motherhas really lived up to her full potential.
She wasn't supported in doing that.
Her parents didn't even want to educateor just kind of go
(51:34):
be a pretty face and have no substance.
Well, okay, but how happy and satisfiedcan your mother be
that she didn't get to dowhat she might have done in the world?
What a common story for women.
What a common story for women.
Hey, women, you get to be a zero,maybe be pretty.
(51:55):
Go have some kids. great.
Keep the status quo.
Go Feel like a zero.
We're not going to educate youher support you.
And this is, you know,not that long ago, right? Get a job.
That's cute.
That's cute. Isn't that nice? Yeah.
And then go have the babies.
So feel we're not going to support youin feeling about yourself.
And then carry this on to those babies.
(52:17):
Right?
And then you go and have babiesfeeling this way.
I'm a zero.
I'm a zero. Amazing.
We talked about imprintsbefore I sat there.
Simple.
You know, Dr.
Bill is always sayingthey're really simple.
They're one sentence things. Here it is.
Be a zero like your mother.
So you can seeshe would have to be put to sleep.
(52:40):
How else?
Okay, I've got to be a zero.
So any feelings, any thoughts,you know, of of real substance
that I have,I better start putting them to sleep.
Right.
So that's what in partthe sleep was covering up.
Yeah.
Don't to know that.
Don't know that below that go to sleepWhy don't you.
Because otherwise you're going to realizethat you know.
You're going to make this discovery.Then what do you do?
(53:00):
Well then you might be angrywith me, family,
all the characters,but certainly a mother who unwittingly.
I want to be clear about this.
This is all unknown.
We are all doing it.
And by the way, menare passing on imprints, too.
It's just that the mothers comes firstbecause that's where the baby starts.
And mothers are passing these imprintson to their boys and their girls.
(53:25):
Absolutely.
Everybody's getting oneand it's all unknown.
That's the point of this.And the reason you need a dream.
I don't know that she was going to get to,I'm actually supposed to be a zero
by telling me that she wasn'tgetting offered job position
she thought were a sure thingand that she was having a bad time
on a really nice datethat some guy took her on.
(53:47):
There's real problems in the world.What is this?
But when you get underneath you go,wait a minute, The life isn't going right
for really good reasonand you have no idea.
All of this is under thereuntil you get to the dream.
And that was what Dr.
Bail wanted everybody to see.
Used the dream pointed in word.
(54:09):
Get to know the territory
and you're going to find out what shacklesyou're wearing.
It's awesome.
And you make it seem so simple.I just love it.
It's just we have all this information
running through usand most of us never access it.
What an opportunity this provides, right?
Every night you go to sleepand this kind of stuff is being given
(54:35):
right there.
It's right there.
Now, this is like a cliffhanger,I suppose.
Well, this is a cliffhanger.
I wanted to at least let people see.
All right, look, we've got a personwho's asleep and part of being asleep
meant and the reason whyshe was put to sleep unconsciously,
nobody said, hey, you go to sleep,you're not allowed to know anything.
(54:57):
But this is what happens amongsthuman beings.
We are always unconsciously communicatingand telling
people what they can doand say, whether overt.
Sometimes, you know, it's very overt,but often it's just silent
but you know, it
you know, you can't step out of linein whatever way that is, unconsciously.
So she went to sleep and part of whyshe was asleep so that she didn't know
(55:20):
she was supposed to be zero.
Now this is out right now.
Her unconscious has heard thisand she's going to do
whatever her mindis going to do with this knowledge.
And we're going to hopefullyget to come back and look and see.
All right, Now what?
So you learn this.
What are you supposed to do with this?
How how does this start to change things?
(55:42):
And hopefully we'll get to see thatin subsequent sessions.
So dream number three, Dream number four
will talk about thosein an episode upcoming. Yes.
Because people want to see it. All right.
You do all of this work if they're goingto subject themselves to coming to therapy
and talking somebody and rememberingtheir dreams, what are they doing it for?
(56:03):
And Dr.
Bail really thought you're doing itso that you can learn who you really are,
Who who is this womanif she doesn't have to be asleep
and doesn't have to be a zero.
What a gift to humanity she can bewhen she can operate from her true
unencumbered self.
Right? Like the rest of us.
What a gift to humanity we can all be.
(56:25):
And in the waysthat we can change the world.
It sounds so sort of overwhelmingor glorious or farfetched,
but it's the only way.
If you imagine that somewherethis woman is really angry
because she wasn't allowed to be her trueself.
Where does that anger go?
(56:45):
Because if feelings
aren't allowed in the family,she's not going to be angry with them.
It's got to go. Somewhere,but it's going to go somewhere.
And now we're starting to get the roots ofwhy we go to war.
Where is it going to go?
Who's going to be the aggressor
or the group or the personthat one imagines really did the harm?
(57:08):
If your mind has to be asleepto knowing where it really came from,
nobody outside the family made her a zeroand put her to sleep.
That all happened very close to home.
But if you can't talk about it,it's got to go somewhere else.
It doesn't go away.
It doesn't go away.
Well, thank you so much.
(57:29):
I'm completely intrigued and can't waitto talk about dream number three with you.
Really appreciate all the effortput into sharing this with us.
Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you for letting me show
how powerful a tool this can really be.
I hope that came to people that you justdon't get to know any of this
(57:52):
until you see that thingwe all do every single night, that dream.
Well, I'm intrigued. And if I am, I'm.
I know our audience is. So again,thank you.
And thank you allfor watching and listening.
And be sure to come backbecause it's intriguing
and follow us, Ask us questions.
(58:12):
We're here. See you next time.
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Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Intentionally Disturbing
Join me on this podcast as I navigate the murky waters of human behavior, current events, and personal anecdotes through in-depth interviews with incredible people—all served with a generous helping of sarcasm and satire. After years as a forensic and clinical psychologist, I offer a unique interview style and a low tolerance for bullshit, quickly steering conversations toward depth and darkness. I honor the seriousness while also appreciating wit. I’m your guide through the twisted labyrinth of the human psyche, armed with dark humor and biting wit.