Rebuilding Faith After Fire: Rabbi Amy Bernstein on Community, Post-Traumatic Growth & Love

Wildfire, burnout, and a fast-changing world couldn’t dim Rabbi Amy Bernstein’s commitment to love and justice. In this And Now Love episode, host Cynthia Marks explores how Reconstructionist Judaism evolves with modern ethics, why inter-faith friendships matter, and how post-traumatic growth can turn crisis into community strength.  

 

 Timestamps 0:00 – 00:46 Intro & guest bio 0:47 – 04:29 What is Reconstructionist Judaism? 4:30 – 07:06 Interpreting Torah like the U.S. Constitution 7:07 – 12:17 Facilitation vs. authoritarian leadership 12:18 – 16:26 Women rabbis & egalitarian progress 16:27 – 25:14 Amy’s journey: gay synagogue to rabbinical school 25:15 – 31:00 Denominations in decline—good news? 31:01 – 40:23 Eco-kashrut & mindful consumption 40:24 – 49:58 Inter-faith clergy circle & hard conversations 49:59 – 57:00 Palisades fire: losing home, leading others 57:01 – 1:03:04 Queer identity, community fractures, media overload 1:03:05 – 1:12:58 Post-Traumatic Growth vs. PTSD 1:12:59 – Attention as life & taking a month off

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Connect with Rabbi Amy: Kehillat Israel, Los Angeles

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Episode Transcript

(00:05):
Rabbi Amy Bernstein is with us today.
RabbiAmy is the senior rabbi of Kehillat Israel
in Los Angeles,a Reconstructionist temple
with a congregation of over 1000diverse households.
She is a well-respected leader,

(00:26):
a brave woman, a true friend.
For me, Amy is one of the peoplein my life that easily lives
her life genuinely caring about othersand stepping up for others
and operating from empathy
seem to come naturally.
What I feel from Amy is love.

(00:50):
So many things to talk about here today,
but let's start with a brief discription
of reconstructionism.
Hi, Rabbi. Amy.
Hi, Cynthia.
Reconstructionism was denomination of Judaism.
It's the baby of the movements.

(01:10):
It was founded by Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan,whose students
really pushed himto make this new denomination.
He didn't want to further fracturethe Jewish people
when they really pushed him on some issuesin the conservative movement.
He was part of the conservative movement.
He was training conservative rabbisin their seminary.
That's what he did his whole life.
At the age of 83, they convinced himto found the Reconstructionist movement

(01:34):
because they really, truly believedhe and his students really believed
that all of our practice
as Jews is not from above,coming down to us as instruction,
but rather is our peoplereaching for holiness.
And this is the wayour people has figured out how to do that.

(01:55):
And that has evolvedand changed over time.
So all of Judaism has evolvedand changed over time.
Kaplan was insistent that that isone of the best things about it.
He doesn't claim this is from Torah.
Which other movements do right.
What Torah really meant was right,and Kaplan understood no,
our understanding of Torah evolvesand how to live and what what

(02:17):
an ethical life looks like, what ethical,you know, practices look like.
And that changes over time.
Egalitarianism.
Feminism, queer people,all of that changes.
Welcomingpeople who want to convert to Judaism.
There's just been a lot of changesin Jewish life.
And he believed
that was one of the best things about itand why we're still around as a people.

(02:38):
3000 years
after our ancient homeland was destroyedand we were dispersed as a people.
Everyone else has gone from that time.
He also believed that Jewish identityand Jewish
people, hoodis the only constant over those 3000 years
and that, how Jewish you areisn't about how often you go to synagogue.
It's not a religion.

(02:59):
It is primarily a belonging to a people.
So for him, how Jewish are you?
Is a questionabout how thick is your Jewish identity?
Do you eat Jewish food?
Do you or, you know, get Jewish humor?
Do you read Jewish literature?
Do you identify as belongingto this people throughout history?
How connected do you feel to other Jews?

(03:21):
So it's not reallyabout the religious practice.
That's part of it.
But, but it's one small part of it.
All those other layers of being Jewishare just as important and profound.
And justice Jewish is.
So then is it unique to re constructionism
that the Torah is sort of interpreted,

(03:45):
based on current events, that it
is that unique, then it is not.
What is unique is that we are proud ofthat and own it and say that out loud.
So people say, oh,you pick and choose what you're going to.
Well, yeah, everybody does,including the Orthodox.
There's nothing in terthat says whether a microwave is kosher.
You know, how do you kosher a microwaveif something happens or something

(04:07):
unkosher gets put in a microwave.
How do you,how do you kosher the microwave.
Well they have to interpret it right.
That constitution our constitution in.
That's the that's the closest exampleI can give.
They have to interpretthat law for this time,
right?
RightI see. So everyone has to do that. Yes.
So you're just saying yes.

(04:29):
And that's a great thing.
So you know you know in a way it'ssort of like
the Constitution of the United Statesmean you have to figure out okay,
wait a minute.
These guys didn't know about this thingthat's happening.
How do we apply these rules.
Do we apply these rulesto what's going on currently?
Correct. So
so for instance, our understanding of whata human being is has changed.

(04:52):
Yes. Right. All men are created equal.
Right.
Yeah, but if you were not white,you were not equal.
And you were only.
What are some ridiculous fraction,you know, of a person
and so it's a good thingthat that changed.
It's a good thing that women can vote.
Yes. It's athose are all good things that you take

(05:13):
from your new understandingof what should be.
And you apply it to the law,and you change your practice
based on new valuesand new understandings.
How hard is that for you
as a leader, leading a group of people,
helping them understand

(05:34):
the Torah in in current terms?
Are you?
Gosh, it'shard to get this concept into words.
Are you because you lead Torah study
classesand and you even have a podcast, right.
So which we're going to find outmore about.
It seems to me because I'm just thinkingabout this in terms of our government,

(05:56):
that there are people imposing
on us new interpretations.
To settle something or
because they deem itto be the best interpretation.
Right.
And we're in a situation where
there are an awful lot of peoplewho don't question that.

(06:17):
It's like, okay, this guy said this,we were just going to go with it
or were too afraid not to.
And certainly you're not doing that.
But what is the thingor the element or the feeling
that helps youand the people listening to you
think that this is the right approachin terms of a current interpretation?

(06:38):
Wow, that was a long question.
No, no, I totally get it. Okay.
Part of what makes reconstructionism different.
And one of the reasons
it is its own denominationand not part of the conservative movement,
is because the rabbi is not seenas the arbiter of the law.
First of all, we don't live a lifethat's based on Jewish law.

(06:58):
We take the inspiration of the valuesunderlying Jewish law, justice, equity,
fair weights and measures, compassion,you know, all that stuff.
There's a level above which.
Below which no one should fall.
You know, a social safety net.
We take those valuesand then have to figure out
how to apply that as Americansto the society that we live in.

(07:19):
So who would that mean?Who does that mean I would vote for?
Because whose policies line upwith my understanding of the inspiration
underneath Jewish law, the concepts rightthat that are about justice.
What has happened is that some peoplehave elected someone to be that arbiter.
That is not my role.
My role is to be a facilitatorand an expert in Jewish law,

(07:42):
Jewish history, Jewish philosophy, Jewish
ways of approachingethical and moral quandaries.
My job is to educate the community aboutwhat's been and what my best thinking is
and my, you know, teachersbest thinking is about those things. Now,
and they make a decision as a community.
The board of directorswill make a decision.

(08:04):
My job is to be the Jewish facilitator.
That's a very different role, right,than the arbiter of Jewish law.
So in a conservative synagogue,is this kosher or is it not?
The rabbi decides. Yes.
Being an expert in Jewish lawsays this is kosher.
That is not. That's not my job.
That's that's analogous towhat are you hiring

(08:27):
the president and his cabinetor her cabinet to do,
if you're hiring them to facilitategood decision making between
all of the branches of governmentand the bicameral, you know,
legislature
that resultsin a different kind of decision
making processthan if you hire a dictator.

(08:49):
You hire someone who you wantthem to make the decision,
or you're okay with
them and they're,you know, group making decisions
and interpreting the lawin a way that many of us object to.
So I already object to the kind of processthat this government

(09:10):
uses, and the people who voted themin will tolerate,
because you're in a situation where
you,
see your approach really working.
And so that is I think if I understood you
to some degree, you go back to the very,very basic principles

(09:31):
that these rules came from, which
compassion, empathy, love, justice.
And if you always are keepingthose things in mind,
you are going to be able to help yourself
and others come to healthy decisions
in support of a greater community,and understanding that other people

(09:52):
have a very different understanding of
what should be done than I doin any given ethical or moral dilemma.
That's okay.
We have different histories, we havedifferent ways of looking at things.
We have our own personal trauma,we have our own
personal gifts and our own insightsand our own challenges.
And we always bring that to bearon our deepest beliefs about what
we should do right.
In any kind of situationthat's based on values. Yes.

(10:14):
So so there may be 17 different waysof looking at a good ethical solution to
what a civilization has to do is decide,okay, we have 17 different opinions.
How do we get to the best decisionpossible
for the most people in this community?
And it doesn't have to be my decision. No.
And nobody else's.
It's a sort of a group effort.

(10:36):
Right.
Well,the there's democracy for you. Correct.
So then there are these
many different ways
to come to a good ethical decision.
And then everything elseis just unethical.
Well it's also sometimes about what's
most ethical, what's most possible.

(10:57):
Sometimes what's best isn't possible.
Sure. Right.
Like what would be bestis for there to be no children
dying of hunger or malaria and no warand no war.
Right.
So we know we have food rotting,you know, in silos in this country
that could be used,you know, to feed people in countries
where they're not able to meet subsistencelevels.
It's sickening.

(11:17):
Thought 100%.
So I believe it is possible,but there's not the will.
Right.
So, so sometimes doingwhat's most ethical, there's not the will.
Sometimes it's just not possible tothat doesn't
mean everything else is unethicalI guess is what I'm saying.
Yes. There's varying degrees, right.

(11:37):
There's sometimes we're put ina really bad choice between bad and worse.
Right.
And do things we don't want to dobecause it's the least horrible option.
Yeah.
You know, Imean, there are those things that happen.
Unfortunately. Yes.
And I think we have to figure out waysto help us

(12:01):
out in terms of not putting anybodyin those kinds of positions.
And it's a big, big, big, long
journey,maybe hundreds of years, I don't know.
But I think we have to dowhat you're doing, which is start
in our own communities and help each otherand lift each other up.
And you're doing such a great job of that.

(12:22):
And you are.
You have unusual circumstances.
I mean, this this world of rabbis is,
that you're a woman and you're a rabbi.
Is is a still a little uncommon, isn't it?
Not so much anymore.
Not so much anymore in seminaries.
In the liberal seminaries,it's 6040 women.

(12:44):
Awesome.
So the graduating classes are all 60, 40women.
And as a female rabbi,
at once, you'vegraduated and and you're getting yourself
situated in this fabulous new profession,are you more limited?
Because in some forms

(13:05):
of practice, Orthodox.
Can a woman be a rabbi?
No. It's starting to change a little bit.
They're giving them a different title,but they're starting.
It's starting.
But but that doesn't really matterfor me to be efficacious.
I just need my people to buyinto my leadership.

(13:26):
Right.
So it doesn't matter to me that the stateof Israel doesn't recognize my rabbi.
You know, it's like the only placeI'm not recognized as a
rabbi is the Jewish state.
And I wonder what it even be possiblefor an Orthodox woman
to choose to be an Orthodox rabbi
that would go against her teaching,wouldn't it? Yes.

(13:47):
So like I said, it's starting to shift.
They're starting to comeup with language for teacher.
Which is really what
Rav in Hebrew the term rabbi Rav meansabundant, wide, big
and that it's supposed to referto an abundance of learning.
So my, my degree that hangs on my wall,
says Amy Rose Bernstein will now

(14:09):
be known as a rabbi and teacher in Israel.
That'sthat's what a rabbi is, your teacher.
And so they're they're using languagethat isn't rabbi,
but it's like I see high teacher.
So it's very close.
But anyway, what her authority will be,you know,
women in the Orthodox world who who knows

(14:30):
hopefully it's evolving,but it doesn't really matter.
In my world.
What matters are my peopleand my community and the larger
interfaith community that I interactwith in the Palisades and in LA.
That my authority is recognizedand I only have authority because,
you know, 930 families say so. Yes.

(14:53):
Say yes.
She speaks for our understandingof this issue. Yes.
And that happens because you do itwell and they feel well represented and,
and and it's not easyalso to have such a diverse
community where we don't agree.
And like, you know, the only
I joke, the only sport that Jews arenaturally good at is debate.

(15:17):
And so we argue a lot, but that's healthy.
I mean, you ultimatelydon't you generally come to
some decisionwhere everybody's been heard and
generally generally doesn't meanbut but what do they say about compromise?
Like if both parties leave unhappy
it's a good solution.

(15:38):
It's kind of like that.
Yeah.
Often the people who don't getyou know the decision they want
don't feel great about it,
but they feel good about processand they feel good about okay.
If, if the majority of the community feelsthis way, we'll just have to suck it up.
Yeah.
And and that's the process,I think a healthy process.

(15:59):
So I do want to speak
about Los Angeles in the Palisadesand what's been going on.
But I wanted to talk furtherabout you being a leader and
you've led quite a
life, and you've got yourself to this,this amazing place that you
you're satisfying so many peopleand helping so many people, and it's

(16:23):
clearly something that you are passionateabout that you love.
How did you get here?
Do we have seven?
I was going to say, how long do you have?
The short version,
is that I come from a householdwhere my mother converted to Judaism.
She grew up Southern Baptist,so she had a lot of problems

(16:47):
with a theologythat was very authoritarian
and very, This is what you believeand you don't question.
And my father was raised Orthodoxand felt very similarly like that.
He was told, this is what you doand this is what you eat,
and this is what youdon't and you don't question.
So they both
didn't like that approach to belongingto the Jewish people, but both felt

(17:11):
very strongly about belonging tothe Jewish people and raising Jewish kids.
Because we lived in Atlanta,Georgia in the 60s.
I was born in 65.
The school system wasn't fantastic.
And so the public school system,and so I'm sure my grandparents, also
my father's parents, were pushing, for us to go to private Jewish day school.

(17:31):
So I grew up in a Jewish day schooland then chose to go to Yeshiva
High School, a very small Orthodoxhigh school, for three years
until I came out as a lesbian at 16
and needed to leave that environment.
So, so in that environment,you could not be.
And was that still in Atlanta.

(17:53):
My world was a Jewish world.
And my parents divorced when I was eight.
It was a very messy divorce.
It was very ugly.
And we just kind of slid downthe economic ladder after that.
And did your mom maintainher Jewish identity?
She did. She did. And so

(18:13):
I think the place I
felt safest was at school,
where things weren't coming apartand where things felt really solid.
And my teachers and my rabbisand my the principal and, you know,
everybody, like, just felt really
supportive, really loving, compassionate.
Like it was a place I felt safeand where I felt

(18:35):
like belonging was really important.
And I did feel like I belonged.
I loved Jewish texts.
I love studying philosophy,I loved studying,
I loved singing,you know, all the stuff we sang.
A lot of the Jewish Service Servicessong.
So, you know, we sang a bunch of stuffand Jewish camp songs and just.
I loved all of it.

(18:55):
And you, you created your own family.
I did, I felt like I was part of a family,and I felt like I was part of a people.
I'm also adopted.
So not having any biological connectionto any of my family.
I felt
I had a connection to Abraham and Sarah
that was just as legitas any of my classmates.

(19:16):
Right. 3000 years is a long time.
So like they may have been more relatedto their,
you know, grandparents generationor whatever, but I felt I was a descendant
of Abraham and Sarahand can you just like they were. Why?
Because some of our audience may not knowthe importance of those two individuals.
So those are the twowho are our mythic ancestors,

(19:37):
who began the Jewish peopleand our sacred mythology.
And anyone who converts becomes a daughteror a son of Abraham and Sarah.
And I really feltlike they were my ancestors.
And it didn't matter about genetically.
It didn't matterthat I wasn't genetically Jewish.
That did not matter what mattered.
I felt like I wasthat they were my ancestors.

(20:00):
They're the only ancestors I knew about.
Them and Jacob and Rebeccaand you know like.
Yeah.
The whole you took them business Isaacand I mean all of them.
So that felt like my familyand where I belonged
existentially it's where I belonged. And
and that stayed with me through college.

(20:20):
But because I leftand wasn't talking to Orthodox
Judaismor the God of Orthodox Judaism anymore.
So it was very lonely in collegebeing without
a community, being without my community,the Jewish community,
everything looks familiar to me about it.
You didn't go on to an institutionthat was a Jewish.

(20:44):
So I went to northwestern.
And there was progressive Judaism there,
but I wasn't mature enoughto figure out how to do it.
I was still too reactive about.
There's all this English.
It feels like church, likeit doesn't feel like legitimate.
It doesn't feel authentic.
And I was just too immature to figure out

(21:06):
which parts could work for meand which parts didn't.
But it is true that I did not becomea reformed rabbi, in part
because when I was lookingat rabbinical schools,
it still was a whole lot of English,you know, a lot a classical reform
with, you know, the,the rabbi as orator in a robe and a organ.
And, you know, that's
what I was exposed to when I was young,especially in the South.

(21:29):
That's the kind of Reform JudaismI experienced.
And so that's not what I wanted.
It didn't speak to me.
It still doesn't.
I mean, there's lots about itthat's beautiful, but it doesn't really
fill me the way, Hebrew and traditional,
study and and prayer does.

(21:49):
So when I came back to Atlantaafter I graduated northwestern,
I was really struggling to figure out howto put the Jewish piece back in my life.
And someone told me about a gayand lesbian synagogue,
and I was like, no way, no way.
Talk about love and be possible.
It can't even be possible.

(22:09):
Fakey fakey fake Judaism? Absolutely not.
Not going to happen.
You won't catch me dead. There.
And my partner at the time said, well,then you can't complain
at the High Holidaysthat you're really lonely
and depressed.
Complain
or go to the right.
Like I was like I was not going to give upmy rights to complain.

(22:30):
Like there was just no way.
Okay, I'm going to one service one.
And I don't wantto ever hear about this again and I will.
I've done my job, I will done my job.
And then I get to complain.
And so she said fine I said finejust fine fine.
So I go to Rosh Hashanahthe Jewish New Year, I go
which is one of our holy, you know,the holy, the high holy days for us.

(22:50):
And so I go and there's a woman, Rabbiat this synagogue.
She's an out lesbian.
And are you rolling your eyes?
And I'm like, what?
And she's wearing traditional garb,meaning a burial shroud,
which is what we wearat the High Holidays.
Many people wear them traditionally.
She's wearing a burial shroudand a full prayer shawl, and uses

(23:11):
Hebrew and Yiddish in ways that I can tellshe's from a traditional background.
And I thought, how?
How is she doingwhat she's doing from where I'm sitting?
Like, how did she get there?
And it was a legit service,and it was like a lot of Hebrew.
And and she's reading from the Torahin Hebrew and which has no punctuation.

(23:32):
I'm like,
what is happening right now?
My world was like, rocked. So,
because I look like Susie Cream Cheese.
Somebody came over to say,
are we sure she knows where she is?
Does she know what she's doing?
She just.
Does she know what she's doing?
And so, they came over and they were verywarm and very welcoming and very lovely.

(23:54):
They gave me a prayer book.
Someone sat with me to tell mewhat's going
on, and and I came outbecause I wanted them to know.
Yes, I, in fact, am gay.
And that's one of the reasons I'm here.
And and I come from,you know, Hebrew Academy,
you know, in Atlanta and a high school.
And so one of them ran up to the rabbito say she knows Hebrew.
She knows all the prayers,

(24:15):
and they'realways looking to get people involved.
You know, and so sure, when they told herthis, she said, okay, great.
We'll have her do kind ofa standard prayer in Hebrew that is sung.
So I chant this prayerthat I've been chanting my whole life
and she says, oh,but you need to stay after services.
And I'm like, how am I in trouble already?

(24:36):
I've been here half an hour.
I just, I my first time youhow am I in trouble?
I'm staying after school. All right.
So she said, afterwards, she said, hereis the prayer book for the High Holidays.
I'm going to send you a tapeand you are going to sing the service.
For Yom Kippur,for our holiest day of the year,

(24:56):
because she can't carrya tune in a bucket.
That just makes me want to cry.
Well, that's what happened.
So I learned everything for Yom Kippur.
Because I've been going my whole life.I knew the service.
And the first time I ever hearda woman's voice chanting in a synagogue
was my voicechanting our most sacred prayer.
Call me dry that next week.
That gives me chills.So I started to cry.

(25:19):
She started to cry.
Everyone started to crylike it was just this huge catharsis.
And I didn't know it then.
But that'swhen everything spun on its axis.
And that was the beginning of my roadto rabbinical school.
I didn't know it, but so after that, you
you saw an inroadand I stay very involved.

(25:39):
She was a visiting student rabbi.
So they didn't have a rabbi.
I had a traditional backgroundso I could leave Friday night services.
I could literally study, I could.
So all of a sudden I was leadingthis community in its Jewish life.
And trying to learn the languageof liberal and progressive
Judaism and Reconstructionist it was a Reconstructionist synagogue

(26:00):
trying to learn the language of that
and the philosophy of thatand the theology of that.
So I read an introduction, you know,to Judaism, a Reconstructionist approach.
And like,
I was like, where has this beenall my life,
respecting and regarding traditionwithout needing to be controlled by it?
Yeah.
To bring our,
you know, our,our sensibilities of 2024, 2025,

(26:23):
whatever your you're into these textsand to these values
and to these practices, it's like,where has this been?
And keeping the values at the core.
Correct? Yeah. And like.
How did I not know about this?
How come most Jews don't know about this.
And they still don'tI really don't. They still don't.
I mean, isn't your synagogueone of the very few?

(26:44):
Yes, about 100.
And we do a terrible job of advertisingand y reconstructions.
I don't know, we just stink at it.
We're really bad at it as a movement.
Really bad.
And now that denominations are in decline.
We're not going to get better at it.
I see and I think more and more synagoguesare not going to identify

(27:06):
as reform, reconstructionist, conservativelike really that's going away.
And is that a good thing.
I think it is.
I think it's a good thing.
Yeah.
So it is a good thingthat denominations are in decline.
And why do you say that?
I think they were helpful for peopleto try to figure out where they stood on
the spectrum of both practicewhat we call praxis,

(27:29):
and philosophy and theology.
At one point it was helpful as progressiveJudaism was emerging,
it was helpful to kind of figure outwhere exactly you were in the relationship
between liberal approachesand liberal values,
and applying that to our tradition,I see, and where the tradition trumps

(27:49):
the, the, the new thinking about somethingand and where are you in that mix
that was really helpfulto have different places
people could landwhere they felt comfortable.
As a conservative Jew, you might say,I can go this far.
Yes, I can get this.
But when you look at the FA reform,you're like, yeah, that's too far.
Yeah.
So I think it was really helpful like to,to have these denominations flourish

(28:11):
and their philosophies,
you know, inform people'slives and choices and communities grew.
Women, you know, became much more involvedin, you know, in Jewish life
and leadership, queer people,you know, it was just very healthy
for all of the developments and evolutionsthat have come to Judaism
through the, you know, developmentof progressive Judaism.

(28:32):
At some point it started to, like,grind against each other
and to be, a barrier for peoplethat I think
now people are finding communitiesthat feel comfortable to them,
knowing that there's a range of theologyor philosophy or praxis,
and it doesn't matteras much that you match

(28:53):
everybody else's level of keeping kosher,
or it doesn't matter at all to usthat there can be people
who it matters to them.So we have a kashrut
policy for the building,and there's people who don't care
and we can live together.
So is that already pretty prominent
as a set of ideasin the Reconstructionist domain?

(29:16):
Saying you can be kosherand I don't need to be, and I'm
going to pray like this,and you're going to pray like that.
And it's all kind of welcomed.
Yes, yes.
And we have discussionsthat are meaningful to me about things
that are beyond the traditional practiceof kashrut, like pork and meat and milk

(29:37):
and shellfish and all that, and goesto, again, the underlying value of cash.
Fruit is about bringing Jewishideals and values to eating.
So something really important to usalso as a community is not just that
we have a kosher kitchenso anyone can feel comfortable
eating at at an event at our placeif they have a stricter, you know,
observance of kashrut,but also that we don't use styrofoam.

(30:00):
And we don't use single use water bottlesbecause for us,
eco kashrut is just as important.
Plastic water bottles are not kosher.
I mean, they are technically,but we believe
that it's against Jewish valuesaround consumption to use them.
So we don't use them.
We have water coolers
and everybody has a bottleor we provide, you know, recyclable cups.

(30:22):
So it's ultimately about what's bestfor the person and the world.
Right.
And so it's kind of an ongoingconversation between the tradition
and what our contemporary valuesare around bringing mindfulness.
Right.
So, soand consumption look how you've updated
this portion of the Torah.
Yeah. Yes.

(30:43):
And that's what we care about ishow do we do that.
Our ancestors were looking for waysto bring holiness into eating.
So they limitedhow much meat you could eat
by making it only sacrificial meatthat you could eat like that.
That was a value.
To limit your consumption of meatand killing other things.
Yeah.
To eat if that's the underlyingone of the underlying Jewish values.

(31:07):
How do we bring that forward.
What else should we not be eating.
What was that.
What was meant by that. Right.
How far reaching can that be.
So for me I only eat free range chicken.
Because it's bringing that value forward.
Yeah.
We're going to look at tryingto reduce the cruelty of how things are,
you know, slaughtered for us to consume.

(31:29):
If we're going to reduce the frequency,
you know, then I don'tI don't eat red meat very often at home.
I and free range chicken is a must
because their lives are so horriblethe way that has raised so.
And in addition to saving some creaturesfrom that cruelty,
there's a good amount of the healthof the person eating taken to mind, right?

(31:50):
That it's not that good for us to eatso much red meat.
I find too, that well, first of all,I believe that you're involved in learning
about other faiths too,and that you have a community
of faith minded peoplethat you relate to, right?
Yes, we have an interfaith clergygroup in the Palisades,

(32:11):
and, that is a very
close knit group,and we meet every month to sit
and have lunch and just talkand get to know each other.
We plan a Thanksgiving servicetogether every year, an interfaith
Thanksgiving service, and we come togetheraround some other events.
But we we take very seriouslyknowing each other as people.

(32:34):
We have very different theologies.
We have radically differentunderstandings of God.
And what that then means forhow you're supposed to be in the world.
That I'm queer, right?
For some of them is anathema.
But it doesn't mean thatthe person who holds a theology

(32:54):
that says I'm living wrongly
and unethically in sin,
it doesn't mean he doesn't love me
as a person.
That goes a long way to healing
the waysthat we bump up against difference.

(33:16):
That could be splinteringfor our community completely.
And it's hardfor me to wrap my head around that.
I I'm pretending to be and
your body over there.
And how am I hated for being queer?

(33:38):
How do I how do I know
this person is hating me for being queer,
or dismissing me, or disgusted by
and also at the same timereceive his love?
How do you how do you do that?
I think partly it's because of who he is.

(33:59):
I don't feel like he hates me,
and I don't feel like he'sdisgusted by me.
His tradition teaches him it's wrong.
He knows mine does not.
ProgressiveJudaism does not teach me that it's wrong.
So he knows I'm living in linewith my values.
They don't line up with his.

(34:20):
But they don't allow womento be leaders in their church either.
So it's like yeah.
So he knows and respects that my tradition
celebrates my authorityor being an authority.
The being the rabbi, he knows thatand he respects that.
And his church does not.
Does that make sense. Like so he it does.

(34:41):
He doesn't judge my following my theology
and my traditions, guidanceand I don't begrudge him following his.
He's we were
on a, on a panel discussion one timeand he said to me
we were talking about queernessand gay relationships and gay marriage
and whatever.
And he said My God is not confusedabout what makes a family.

(35:04):
My God is not confused.
And it was interestingand I kind of chuckled and I said,
mine is not confused either.
About what makes a familylove makes a family.
Yeah.
And so it was likewe both had exactly the same value.
Right. Which is our God is not confused.
Yeah. About family.

(35:24):
And we have a very differentinterpretation of what that family can be.
Right.
But you take the Constitutionand you say there's a right to privacy.
Well does that meanabortion is legal or not?
Yeah. Right.
So you're taking the same exact law
from the Constitution or several laws,and you're using them

(35:45):
to bolster your understandingof why this should be allowed.
Right.
And that, our thinking has evolvedand should
and a woman should be able to blah,blah, blah.
So, it's very much like that, like hisif his tradition evolved
this understanding of what marriagesand my tradition
evolved a different understanding,we both get it that we're taking the same

(36:08):
institution of marriage or commitmentor family, whatever you want to say,
and interpreting it wildly differently.
But we both would agree.
I think that spouses shouldn'tcheat on each other.
Yes. Like, oddly,we do have values that line up
that we should be loving towards our kidsand not beat them.

(36:30):
You have a lot that lines up.
We have a lot that lines up.
And so also just as much as he
believes this is what a family is
and you believe this is what a family is,
as much as you understand
that he has this belief systemand it doesn't include

(36:50):
you getting to be gay in his church, yethe still loves you.
It works the other wayas much as you disagree
with sort of the ethics of his theology.
Let's sayyou still care about this person.
And yes, wow,that's a big lesson for the world.
It's huge.
Which is that's why I brought it up,because

(37:13):
had we just met at an event yearly at,you know,
at the Interfaith Thanksgiving service,I bet I would have my judgments.
I'm sure. And my assumptions. Yeah.
And my prejudice,you know, about people not,
you know, recognizing feminism or gaywhatever.
I know he loves me and he knows

(37:34):
I love him because we sit togetherevery single month.
And is that sometimes a struggleto sit together every month?
Because when certain topics come up,it can be uncomfortable?
Yeah.
And I have been very impressedwith how grown up we are
about beingable to have some hard conversations.

(37:54):
We don't go deep into it.
Once we hit somethingthat was like, oh, oh, that's a nerve.
Like, that's going to be tough.
Yeah, let's calm this dance like wewe need to make a decision about what
to do about it,
but we're not going to have a wholephilosophical conversation about it.
Like, unless we want to.
But so there's times we have gone thereand there's times where we haven't.

(38:15):
And so the goal of this groupgetting together is what is it that you're
bringing?
Broader up,
a broaderset of tools to your congregants?
It's about a commitmenton all of our parts
to having the world be less hateful,

(38:39):
conflict oriented,
based in misunderstanding and assumptions
based on other rising and polarizing.
I mean, I know that sounds
really pie in the sky,but but we do it every month.
I think even when it's hard,because we know that's the only way

(39:00):
forward, is to know each otherand like each other as people,
to trust each otheras having good intentions.
What, however messythe results of those intentions can get.
And then we're able to stand togetherwhen something goes down
and our communities are ableto stand together when something horrible

(39:23):
goes down. Yes.
And I think it also gives us
the tools to support each other, helpthose who
who can't be in the positionto live that way yet for whatever reason.
And it's a constant reminder that
that we that we have
more in common than what separates us.

(39:43):
Yeah, that we're all human beingstrying our best
because it'sso not true out there right now.
It is internet has made it.
So we talked about thislast time. It's made it so bad
that everyone's reactive, the,you know, algorithms
that push us, the stuffthat's going to make us the most angry.

(40:04):
We have to have
some kind of antidote to the poison
that we're taking in all the time
that for us as clergy is an antidote,
that we just refuse to allow
our differences to keep us from doingwhat we can for each other.
And as a faith community, you know, toto be together and help each other out.

(40:27):
I love that you come back to this monthafter month, knowing that there are going
to be things that are going to beaggravating or or stressful,
but you you come to terms with itand the only way to understand each other.
And then again, as I always say,and what you see
going on outside thethe turmoil, the wars, the stress.

(40:51):
All of that just
ceasing, all of that I need to take a deepbreath is going on inside of us,
and we've got to figure out a wayto quell that, to get back to love.
Talking about sounding corny, I mean, it'sit's it's really empathy, compassion,
love feeling, working from feelingrather than intellect.
All of those things will help us knowthat we can and should and do

(41:16):
sort of automatically support each otherwhen you come from that sort of a base and
and owning and naming our feelingsthat we're coming from.
Yeah.
Because so often peopleare coming out of fear for sure.
And when people are coming out of fearand don't realize it,
they get very justified.
They there's righteous indignationall over the place.

(41:38):
Right?
And so both empathy,love, compassion. Yes.
Forgiveness, transformation,you know, curiosity,
all those things are really importantto work from that place and to acknowledge
when we're working from a place of fear,or sadness or grief or loss or rage,
you know, and, and to be able to say,okay, I feel really scared right now.

(41:59):
About where this conversation is going.
Yeah.
I just need to
and I've said that in that group,I've said this makes me very nervous.
I just need to let you knowthis makes me very uncomfortable
and I'm feeling afraid.
And here's,
here's what scares me about this.
And when we can do thatwe can have a conversation
or I sayyou know what, I'm just feeling too

(42:21):
activated and too fearful and triggeredand I need to like
take a break from we needcan we switch topics for right now
I need to I need to regulate my own,
my own responses beforeI feel like I can have a thoughtful
conversationand and then to that to know that,
I mean, first of all, it'sgreat that you know enough

(42:42):
about your feelings to be able to say,I don't want to keep doing this right now.
I've got to take some time over hereand either think about it or not.
Think about whatever your processes are.
The other people in this groupdoing the same thing.
Yeah.
And we try to help each other get there.
Like if you can tell somebody is activatedand they can't seem to regulate

(43:02):
like they don't know to, you know,like to, to say, you know Cynthia it seems
seems likethis is a hard topic for you right now.
Do you want to continueto have this conversation?
Do you do you want a minute?
Do you should we talk about something?
I'll, you know, like what?
What do you need right now?
In this moment, it seems likethis was really landed for you in a.
Yeah, hard place. Like what?
What what can we do for you right now?

(43:26):
And and to just check outwhat a group of people here.
It's fortunate to be attached privilegeto be a part of truly.
Well thank you for sharing all that
and thanks to your cohorts.
Please let them know.
Yes, they're they they fill me with hope.
You know thatpeople are willing to live that way and,

(43:46):
you know, get out of our own wayand not let the differences
separate us more than they haveto, more than they need to.
Well, and this group of people,I imagine on some level
all had a calling to do this,whatever it was about the way
they lived their lives priorto coming to this.

(44:08):
It's such a gift to have
this group of people doing what they can
to serve our best interestsand hopefully push us along, help us see
where the best places to come from are,which is empathy and compassion and

(44:29):
so I mentioned that I wanted
to talk a little bitabout the Palisades and, and Los Angeles.
So your home is, is was in the Palisades
and the synagogue is in the Palisades.
And the synagogue was seriously damagedin the Palisades fire.
And your home was destroyed,

(44:50):
and the homes of many of your congregantswere destroyed
or smoked out, or they they don't know
when they're moving back inif they choose to move back in.
When we last met, I think it was April oflast year, and none of this had happened.
And many things have changed in your lifesince then.

(45:11):
But now you're in a position
of having lost everythingyourself on a personal level.
I mean, you're thank goodnessyou're still here and beautiful and smart
and loving, and you have your beautifuldaughter and Luna, who's joined us today.
Fabulous.
Luna,who who has been a huge blessing to you.

(45:32):
So you have
that, but you have this thing to contendwith on a personal level
of losing everythingthat you had in your home.
It's not just thatthey're material objects at all,
things that you've taken a lifetimeto put together.
I don't mean to make you sad.
Geez, Louise, it's always there and
and yet you are having to

(45:55):
assist those that are in the same boat,
and having to come
stand up for them when your own existencemust be exhausting.
How do you how do you do that?
You can't put your own position aside.
And maybe it's helpfulthat you're in the same boat.

(46:15):
I mean, how better to knowwhat they're going through?
Yeah, I was going to say, but
it's it's importantto be able to speak for me
always from a place of authenticity.
Always.
I mean I can't lie and intellectand whatever.
But when I'm really talkingto people in crisis, I always feel
like I need to come from my,my experience of crisis.

(46:37):
Right. Like you're getting through it. So,so for example.
So if you, you must all the timespend time
with people who are, suffering.
Either there's a husbandwho's supporting his wife,
who is dying of cancer, or
a, a family who lost a loved one.

(46:58):
And you may not have the same experience,but you do.
What do you do?
Do you go into your own historyand find things
that brought up feelingsthat you think they maybe feeling?
Yeah. Yeah. I, I'm an empath.
You are so
and so for those of us who are empathsit's a scary world to live in.

(47:20):
It's easy though for me to sit with people
and and get whatthey're feeling as an empath.
That's that's not that's not hard for me.
I think it just comes naturally.
Yeah, I would say so.
And why do you think that is?
What what makes someone an empathand someone else not so?

(47:40):
I thank God for therapy.
I was in therapy for a very long time.
And my therapists, taught me that my mother was a narcissist
and she was a borderline personality.
And the way that that manifests
is particularly gnarly for children.

(48:01):
And what it meansis that the child develops
the abilityto read the narcissist very quickly.
Nonverbal.
So we grow antenna that protect us.
So how my mother walked in the house,I knew her mood.

(48:21):
I knew what her day had been like,and I knew what I needed
to do to stay out of her way.
If it was the way she closed the door,the way she walked up the stairs, I knew.
And so.
And did you know that do you thinkconsciously or unconsciously or both.
I guess it was just pervasive.
You there it was, it was there.

(48:41):
Like I knew it was going to bea good night or I needed to walk softly.
So I think that's part of it is that,
you know, being and she and she raised uswith my dad back in the 70s.
Mothers were awarded full custody,and there wasn't half and half.
And he moved to Florida and remarried.
And so we were really with her.

(49:02):
And she had all the power and control.
And so we were alone.
Me and my sister were alone in the housewith her, so I had to figure out how to
manipulate things to stay safe.
Oh, you're saying exactlywhat we talk about here all the time.
You know that.
But what we do as humans,you know, to sort of

(49:22):
mold ourselves to fit into an environmentthat was given to us
or that we were placed into,how do I make this safe for myself?
How to how do I survive?
How do I help my mother surviveso I can survive?
And look at youjust doing that all over the place.
So I remember saying to my predecessor,
Rabbi Steven Carr Rubin, who was seniorbefore me, I remember saying to him,

(49:44):
you know, there's a part of methat feels almost selfish having this job.
And he says,what can you say more about that?
I said, well,it really this work allows me to heal,
you know, to constantly be addressingthe fissures at my core,
the, the toxic environmentI was placed in.
Yeah.
And so I'm, I'mat the center of a community.

(50:05):
I'm always looking after everybodybecause then I can feel powerful and safe.
You know, that I have some agency,you know, because, you know,
if I could kind of manipulateeverything at home that I.
I was going to be safe.
Yeah.
So if I can read everybody
and respond to what's going on for them,then I'll be safe.
And I'mright in the middle of a big family,

(50:25):
and they're not going to kickme out because they need me.
So that's interesting.
So in a way,you are doing what you did growing up.
Making a safe environment.
But when you were growing upit was either that
or expose yourselfto the narcissism of your mother.

(50:46):
Right.
And as long as you kept this little worldyou wouldn't have to deal with that.
Now you, you'reyour instinct is to still do that.
But the instead of surviving,
there are rewards for you and obviouslyfor the people that you're attending.
Right.
So those were and I said,and then I get rewarded for it.

(51:08):
You know, people thank me for doingwhat like really is like
a basic need for built in nowprogramed into me.
And and so I feel kind of selfish,like doing this work
and getting thanked forit. And he said to me, well,
you could have joined a gang.
I never thought about it that way.
I was like, oh my gosh, you're right.

(51:31):
There is something to mehaving chosen to deal with my breakage.
And my fissures this way. Yeah.
And I'm allowed to feel good about that.
Absolutely.
And so thatyeah that was a huge shift for me.
And I was so gratefulfor that perspective from him.
And that's probably
the way we're supposed to be lookingat so many of our relationships.

(51:53):
Even when it comes to work.
It's this symbiotic thing.
You get something, I get something.
I mean, how great that you'reyou get to grow from this.
And and the more you do that, the betteryou are at helping everybody else
but that.
But that's so wonderful to live a lifewhere you feel like
you are always trying to grow,and you're trying to get better

(52:18):
at what
you do and who you areand being authentically you.
And that changes over time.
I'm 60 years old like that.
It's it's changed.
Like how I see myself,
how my role in the world,how I see my role in Jewish
community has changed overthe 28 years of my rabbit.
It's a refreshing and wonderful thingto be able to look at that
and say, okay, look, I'm 60 years oldand I'm still evolving.

(52:40):
For your congregants who are in thiswith you, how are they faring?
I would imagine that everybody'staking this on, in different terms
based on their histories, what they think,losses, what's important to them,
or is there a a big,
big set of threads that runs commonly?

(53:03):
I think both are true.
There are some common themes.
People feeling really disoriented,really unbalanced.
Routines go away.
You have to form new routines.
Are people making life changing decisions?
People are making life changing decisions.
Some.
Some, if they're older,their adult children are making life

(53:26):
changing decisions for them.
People who are living independentlyat home, whose house burned down,
their children are saying,that's a you're we're not rebuilding.
No way you're coming to live with usin Arizona, or you're coming to Texas,
or you're coming to, you know,North Carolina, where it's time,
So some of those decisions are being kind
of taken out of my seniors hands.

(53:48):
I'm now of course, they agreed to it.
I'm not saying that's against their will.
I'm saying they understand
that they don't have the capacity,not the capacity.
They don't they can't make the decisionsthe way they used to.
Yeah.
Because now it's a much broader context.
If it's going to take five yearsto rebuild, where are we going to live
until then? And then,you know, all of that.

(54:11):
And then what is the quality of lifeand what's the quality of life?
And the kids are like, well,we want you near us.
And we've waited and you were happyin your home, but the home is gone.
This is the moment.
And so I've lost an entire swath of mycommunity.
Who are my elders?
That is really
hard because I always swearI'm not going to cry
when I talk about this.

(54:33):
Because I just assumedI would be with them.
Yeah, but they were sick.
Oh, and as they're dying,
I've loved them for 15 years,and it was always
my assumptionthat I would hold their hands at the end.
They're just gone.
They've been uprootedand planted somewhere else,
and I'm so grateful for that.

(54:53):
I'm glad that they're having good lives,
and I'm glad that their childrenare enjoying their company,
but it's very hardto lose them all at once.
I can't imagine what that's like.
It's really hard.
And, I miss them at Torah study.
I miss them at services.
You know, I miss George Walton, 96 yearsold, telling me, Rabbi, you're terrific.

(55:15):
I don't hear that anymore from him.
But, you know, it's just that they're justsmall things, not small things.
They're.
They may seem small,but they're huge in terms of
how we feel rooted and groundedand oriented in the world.
And and I would imagine, too, that
many of the people who are most involvedare the elder people

(55:35):
because they have more timeon their hands.
They're retired or or,you know, sort of thinking things
through and wondering about the universeand a god or no God.
You have more timeto think about such things.
And and their perspective has shifted.
You're not trying to make it. Yeah.
You know what I mean?Their life is their life, you know? Right.
They got to think about their careeror they're not satisfied.

(55:57):
But it's done.
Their perspective has shifted.
What's important to them has shiftedwhat they think about.
They start to think about legacy.
They start to think
about their grandchildren's futureand what kind of a world they're living in
and what kindof a world we're giving them.
And what are we setting them up for?
A right.
And these things really startto be core issues

(56:19):
in terms of what you just sit around overcoffee wondering about.
Yeah.
And so those are thoseI was in dialog with those people a lot.
That's a much different conversation
than the one we tendto have over the water cooler.
Sure.
You know,or even turning on the radio or the,
you know, news broadcasts,like it's just not the conversation.

(56:39):
And, and I love that conversation.
Yeah.
And I loved constantly being brought into
thinking aboutand reflecting on those things
and not the petty stuff that we all getso caught up in, including me.
Sure.
I mean, we have to live our lives,raise our children, pay the car bill.
That's right.
And so, so I miss I'm.

(57:01):
And that it's not just I mean, I can havethat conversation with other people,
but that'swhere they were living all the time.
And be you get very close to people
when you're havingthat kind of conversation.
I can imagine the intimacy is profound.
So I was
closer to many of them than I am toeverybody who's so busy.

(57:23):
Yeah, that I see at meetings,you know, that I see it in finance
committee meetings or at a board meetingor, you know, and I love them too.
But it's a different relationshipwhen you're sitting with people
who are contemplating the endand what their life has meant, and talking
about things deeply and about whatthey wish they could change.
What a unique position for youas a youngster in their world.

(57:46):
Yes, to be in that way.
They call me kid.
No wonder you miss that.
I miss that.
So I want to shift a little bit.
So you are a proud queer woman
living in the United States in 2025.

(58:08):
What is happening?
How do you feel about being a queer womanin 2025?
Is it is it a lot different than it wasfive years ago, ten years ago
different than when you were growing up?
I mean, there seems likethere are things to contend with now
that we haven't had to contend withfor a long time, and they're showing up

(58:29):
again.
It's both.
And again, it's,you know, it's like on the one hand,
it's so much better
there.
Know, I couldn't get marriedfor most of my adult life.
There was no gay marriage.
I wasn't allowed to marrythe person that I loved.
There was no legal protectionfor our relationship.
There was no legal protectionfor my daughter.
Right. And parents to be parents.

(58:52):
So, it's so much betterin terms of that stuff.
It's not even that big a deal anymore.
Like, I don't even think about itso much anymore.
It may not go away in California,but do you fear that? Yes.
So I fear, though the sharp turnto the right that we've taken.
I very much fear the administrationthat we have in place right now

(59:16):
in terms of whose voices are loudest,
and no one being willing to stand up,
to those voicesthat, you know, want to push,
you know, agenda 2025,a project 2025, and all of those crazy,
you know, really Christian, conservative
kind of ways of approaching things, whitenationalist ways of approaching things.

(59:39):
So I'm deeply concerned about that
at the state.
So that's scarythat we could be moving backwards.
The fact that Roe v Wade wasoverturned is terrifying.
The fact that, you know, people are,
you know, talking about wantingto overturn gay marriage,
that's terrifying to me that not just thatI might not have the privilege to marry.
It's not that. It'show could we possibly be

(59:59):
going to a place wherewe're taking rights away from people?
We've never done that.
We have always understood.
I'm sorry. I'm getting activated. Go.
We have always understood as a countrythat the more rights people have,
the more people who are protectedby freedom and responsibility.
With that freedom, the more peoplewho have that, the safer everybody is.

(01:00:23):
When did when did it become okayto start taking rights away from people?
When the vote expanded,
it got better.
Our system, our electorate got better.
When women could work outside the homeand contribute their talent
and their time, and they had the right and
and were able to do thatand get equal pay.

(01:00:43):
That was that's amazing.
That's a good the productivity went up.
You know, there's better ideaswhen half your population is not
you know, sidelined.
Yeah.
So and better for our children,better for our children.
And so we take the right to an education
when to take rights away from people.
That has been antitheticalto what it meant to be American

(01:01:06):
and what it meant to bea liberal democracy and a republic.
So how do we get people to speak up?
I, I don't know,but I'm not in the halls of power.
So what I have to saydoesn't really matter.
But I was in the street.
I took to the street,you know, to say, you know.
Yeah.
And so I feel like we need to do that.

(01:01:26):
So on one hand, I feel like.
So that's really scary that,
that we might be looking at a timewhere rights are being rolled back.
But at the same time,
the left has become so orthodox
that I'm just a plain old L.
I don't know anything.
I'm just a plain old L, which means

(01:01:49):
check, check yourself.
You're not gender fluid.
You're not, you know, somewhereon that spectrum of, like, I'm
just a plain old lipstick white lesbian,
which means I have very littlein my community to say about stuff. Wow.
Which is a very interesting.

(01:02:10):
What do you do with that place to be?
I am very disheartened.
At. How long have you felt this?
Probably 15 years. Really,
but solid ten and it's getting worse.
And so how do you stand up for beingnot just a plain old L.

(01:02:33):
It's it's really hard.
It means I don'tI often don't want to be in queer spaces
where, where the,where the demographic skews younger.
And a lot of us feel that way.
A lot of us old L's and GS feel that way,
that we're not welcome in a space

(01:02:54):
if we're not a T or a B.
So or a Q,
so you're not far reaching enough.
You are you to
you're too close to being not gay.
Regular. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm a cisgendered white female.

(01:03:15):
So I have very little to sayin a lot of people's minds
on the left about any issue,because I am from privilege,
my white privilege, my class privilege,my cis gendered privilege.
All of it.
My Susie cream cheese lipstick,lesbian look, privilege because I pass.
I remember having this conversationwhen I was young.

(01:03:36):
I didn't think I'd have to have itas an older person.
But I remember someone said to me, so,you know, you dress for the patriarchy,
you wear heels, you wear makeupand certain kinds of jewelry in your hair.
You realize you're oppressed, right?
You realize you dressas an oppressed person
answering to the beauty standards

(01:03:56):
of the industry,and that's run by the patriarchy.
What did you do with that information?
And I said, oh, wow, really?
I said, so for me to be liberated,
I should dresshow you tell me to dress as a dike?
Yeah.
Then I'm liberated, right? Right.
I dress in cargo pants and short hair

(01:04:19):
and get more butch.
Because you say that's liberating.
You know that? That'show I'm going to be liberated.
Then that's what I should do.
Just follow what you tell me to wear.
Like in
what world does that makes any sense?
Isn't the whole idea supposed to bethat we get to choose?
Yeah, and of course they'll sayyou're brainwashed by the culture.

(01:04:41):
Okay, fine. And you're not.
And that's all.
Just because of how you look.
And that conversation is happening again.
That because I can pass.
I come from a place of privilegeand I, I know I have white privilege,
I know I have class privilege,
I know I have privilegebecause of the opportunities in education

(01:05:02):
that I've been given.And that got me ahead.
So I make money that other people100% own that.
What does that have to do with menot having anything to add
to the conversation about what it is to bea queer person in this world right now?
And I mean that
that in dismisses a huge communityand it's a real issue.

(01:05:23):
It's a real problem.
We're having a real problem in ourcommunity because, well, in my opinion,
and I am I'm not in your world,but it seems to me that because
you are a huge community,men and women who, you know,
look like you,
that community is losing

(01:05:43):
out because you have this valuable voice
and want to be part of this queercommunity.
You're not stepping away from it,but you're sort of being forced out.
So what I believe is wrong withthe rest of America is also wrong
with queer America, and that isthat we've been pitted against each other
and we're focused on our differences,and we are focused

(01:06:05):
on a zero sum understanding.
So if you have rights and privilegesor we're focused on your concerns
as a, you know, non-binary person,
if we're not focused on that exclusively,
you've got less of the attention. Pie.

(01:06:25):
That's a zero sum way of thinking
that I completely disavow.
Yeah, it is not a zero sum game.
We need to grow the pie of attentionto rights and responsibilities
right in general, and justice and equityand compassion and all of that stuff.
So how do we do that?
If we do that,everybody gets a bigger piece of pie,

(01:06:48):
but we're
fighting over the size of the of the piece
and that's been a victory
that we've been turned against each other.
Both in the political realm, you know,and in and I see it in the on the left.
Yeah.
And that's that only fuelsthe bigger fire. Yes.
And it's interesting because, you know,you would sort of stereotypically think

(01:07:11):
that perhaps the queer communitywould be more
accepting of differencesbecause they started out really
as a community strugglingto feel part of the bigger picture.
So this is what is so disappointingin the movement of the left.

(01:07:31):
The far left and I'm annual.
That's just language.It's just terminology.
But it is so orthodox on the leftthat it bumps right up against white
nationalist orthodoxy.
Yeah, they are the same.
If you exclude me because I'm a Jewand you're a fascist, or you're a
or you're a white nationalist,it doesn't matter.
It's the same.

(01:07:52):
It's the same.
It's you know, that you're goingto exclude me because fill in the blank
and we're we're doing it on now,the liberal left in a way
that is underminingour ability to make change.
It's how we lost the election.
Yeah.
And look, you're just speaking about this

(01:08:13):
organization that you're part of that
you participate in monthlyand you're you're really trying.
I love thatyou're digging into each other's
existences and,
you know, getting growly and angryabout different approaches,
but letting everybody have their sayand their approach,

(01:08:35):
as long as there'ssome sort of ethics about it.
And that's what I feel like.
On the left We havelost is a shared language
and a shared set of guiding valuesand principles, and everybody argues
from a place that they feelis the self righteous
indignation.
And that has not served us.

(01:08:58):
It has.
And and we're so busyprotecting our opinions.
Right.
And I'm being right.
Like, and I'm so into being pissed offI get it.
I that can be harnessed and used inreally incredibly important ways.
But to turn it on each otherand get mad at each other
because we're not this enoughor that enough is stupid.

(01:09:18):
It is and counterproductive.
And it's dangerous.
Anybody make our society better?
And it's how it's how power is nowin the hands of some pretty radical folks.
Yeah. What
are some good ways that
individuals can start to address this?

(01:09:41):
So I think one thing we have to do is,
we have to check what we're watchingand listening to.
I think we've been very lazyabout allowing ourselves to be influenced
by lots of things that we haven't broughtconscious choice to.
I've been very carefulabout how much news
I consumerecently and news from one source.

(01:10:04):
Yes, yes.
Because I realized that it's just it'schurning
the same old stuffand I get enraged and feel helpless.
And that's not helpfulfor me to be able to create change
and to be able to create energyand momentum around positive change.
So I realize I have to start

(01:10:24):
reading thingsthat that give me a sense of possibility,
a new way to talk about thingsand think about things.
Whether that's teachers or poets or,you know, whatever it is,
I need to start paying better attentionto those kinds of materials
and turn off the TV and radio more.
So I always feel like it's importantfor me

(01:10:47):
to be engaged enoughto know what's going on in the world.
That's important.
But yet I don't know if what I'm accessing
is telling me the absolute truth.
It likely isn't, no matter whereI'm going, because there is no such thing.
Right. We used to agree onat least a set of facts.
We don't even have that anymore.

(01:11:08):
We don't. And truth is whose truth. Right.
So I get that. And that'sall that's going to be the case.
You know going forward I get that.
But what I'm talking about
is the stuff where it's like,I know about the big beautiful Bill.
Why do I need to listen to another story
about the level of machinations,you know, going on?

(01:11:28):
Like, I said, it's going to passor it's not going to pass.
There's nothing I can do about it.
I can only elect officialswho won't do that kind of thing.
Right? Who won't cut right.
You know, the medical carefor the poorest kids in this country. So
I that's the
part where I'm like,okay, do I need to know more
about what senators are saying about,no, no, you've done what you could.

(01:11:53):
You elected who you thoughtwould represent you best and you know,
right now I'm not so sureanyone's being well-represented.
And so it's it's notthat people should disengage.
It's good to knowwhat's going on in the world, but
you don't need to drive yourselfnuts by picking up the newspaper

(01:12:15):
every morning and just doing a deeper diveinto something you can't affect.
On my drive,I could be listening to this podcast
because it's a different perspective, it'sa different focus,
and our livesattention is what we choose to focus on.
Our entire livesare what we choose to focus on
minute after minute after minuteafter minute.

(01:12:36):
That becomes a life.
And what we're not.
I'm actually reading something aboutattention, which is why it's here, right?
Yet that attention, it's a weird thing.
It's a weird thing.
Attention.
I don't want to go down that rabbit hole.
It's really fascinating.
I'm curious about conversation one time.
Yes, but because attentionis a very interesting thing,

(01:12:57):
because there's so much we miss thatwe think we're attending,
and we actually miss a lotthat she doesn't miss.
Luna attends to a lot on a walkto two city blocks that I miss.
Yeah.
But I think I'm paying attention anyway.
So so what we pay attentionto becomes our life right.
That becomes our a life.
And so you can choose to focus on loveand empathy and compassion and do that

(01:13:22):
for half an hour or an hour or listento more about the big, beautiful Bill.
And I've realized that I don'tI don't need to know any more about that.
I know what it's about.
I know the basics, you know,and I know the counter.
And for arguments,I was like, okay, it'll be what it'll be.
I don't need to hear another half an hour
about it, but I could use a podcast

(01:13:45):
on The Hidden Brain or or, you know,
I'm now studying post-traumatic growth
because we talk a lot about PTSD,but all of my people have been
through trauma, or many of my peoplehave been through trauma, including me,
and we don't talk a lot about PTG,post-traumatic growth.
Why not?
We don't because we've skewed,you know, towards the way it's an illness.

(01:14:07):
You know,the way that it's a malady, right?
Because that's what so much of our culture
does, is it looks at what's wrong with usand how do you fix it,
rather than what are allowing
Vietnam vets all the waythrough Afghanistan and, and the recent,
more recent, you know, American veteransexperience of war,
what enablesthe ones that thrive to do that,

(01:14:30):
even though they lived throughthe most horrific traumas imaginable?
What's the difference?
What made the difference between PTSD
as their, you know, response and PTG?
Yeah, well, that's a really great set ofthings for me to be paying attention to.
Yeah, that rather than writethe big beautiful bill

(01:14:51):
because that will help me be ableto use language and, and practices
that will allow me to help my peopleto have a better shot
at experiencing post-traumatic growth
anymore. Yes.
Which is it's not going to fix it.
You know, it's clearly at the forefrontin your community, right?

(01:15:13):
100% at the forefront of my community.
And that's really where I needto be spending more of my time
getting educated, getting inspired,getting creatively, thinking about.
So how do I bring that to my people?
That's such a good lesson for all of us.
How do you focus on the thingsthat you can actually affect?
Really good lessonand the things you can't affect,

(01:15:36):
but wish you could are probably goingto cause you stress.
So somehow suss that out.
You know, I, I hateI was completely shocked and frozen
and frightenedwhen Roe v Wade went out the window and,
I couldn't in a million yearsthink of that happening.
And I can't now change that.

(01:15:59):
It was done.
And I can't keep listening to thingsthat tell me I can't change that.
It just makes me more and more frustrated.
So where do I go in this worldwhere I can make a change?
And if that is so importantto me, that topic,
where do I go in my world where
I can affect that thing to some degree?

(01:16:21):
And how do I.
And then this is also speakingto what you were saying before.
I'm, I do this because I'm selfish
and I do this because it helps
other people and I can't help myselffrom wanting to help other people.
So what about solving problems
or or meeting challenges

(01:16:42):
is satisfactory to you?
Where can you find some recoveryand doing that?
And at the same time, you can't helpbut other help but help other people.
So I think helping other peoplegives me a sense of agency,
because I feel like such a victimof circumstance on so many levels.
And that's one of the first thingsPTG addresses is victimhood.

(01:17:04):
Moving from victimto victor over your circumstances.
That's big.
So I think part of my being with peopleand helping people
is really helps me,because it gives me a sense of agency
so that I don't feel quite as helplessand as much a victim.
So that's part of it.

(01:17:24):
Part of it also is havinga role is really helpful.
Like having somethingI'm supposed to be doing
is really helpful because otherwiseI could sit in a padded room
and it would need to be a padded room.
And just brood. Sure.
And that's so easy for all of us.
And that would be really easyfor me to do as brood.
And that is certainly not helpful.

(01:17:46):
And that is not skinI want to live in. Yeah.
Well,and you've put yourself in a position
where that's really not possible.That's not possible.
So, I do think looking back,
you know, always hindsight is 2020.
I do wonder about how many of us jumpedright in to help
and go full throttle because we didn'twant to address our own pain,

(01:18:08):
and our own grief and our own loss.
Because I'm now I feel likeI'm experiencing a level of burnout.
That is,
I'm going to have to take a month off
because I can't.
I can't keep doing this.
So this level of burnoutis because it's sort of a
almost a perfect storm of

(01:18:30):
needing to.
You're being so needed,
and you so want to help,and you can't help yourself, but help.
But you need help.
And so helping others helps you, you
you get a lot of satisfaction from that,which is fantastic.
But helping others and and feelinggood about that doesn't help you recover

(01:18:52):
from your own circumstances
that are very similarto those of the people you're helping.
So you're still pushingall of that by the wayside.
So people in the helping professionswho are wise and mature and have done
good work, like with in therapyand, you know, other places
we know to be on the lookout

(01:19:13):
for the danger of allowinghelping to cover.
Yes, our willingnessto face our own grief
and our own fearand our own disequilibrium and
but I didn't pay good enoughattention to it because I was needed.
And I want to be needed.

(01:19:35):
I'm glad I'm needed.
I'm glad people think I'm
somebody they want to talk to,and that I can be helpful
because I wouldn'tbe a very successful rabbi
or leader of a community if I weren't.
And I don't think I was as honest
as I could have beenabout my own limitations
and my own,

(01:19:57):
Compromised capacity,
given the exhaustion and,
and the frantic pace at whichwe have to go in disaster recovery,
I think that's another thingI want to do in my later
years is I think I do want to be partof disaster recovery work. Wow.
Which is not a clubyou want to belong to.
I don't think so.

(01:20:17):
So you're taking on this new kind of
edgier, advanced level of helping people
and how are you still goingto take care of yourself in that?
Yeah, yeah.So that's why I'm taking a month. Okay.
Rather than getting away from helpingyourself, I'm using this, like,
highly magnified,intense helping people thing.

(01:20:40):
You still got it.
Be helping yourself.
So I need to take some time off.
I need to step away.
I need to to immerse myselfin some other things.
That's not the fireI need to get out of L.A.
I need to be in nature.
I need to be outside more.
I need Luna and,

(01:21:01):
me and Luna need to be outside more.
I need to be outside more with Luna.
And and and that means just being, like,more in touch with the creature side
of myself. And the world.
So I'm aware of that.
And then I need to figure outwhat's going to feel enriching.
You know, I need to do yoga more.
You know,there's things I need to be doing more
to take care of myself, that there's justnot been the space in this new reality

(01:21:24):
in all of us are dislocatedand we're all over the place.
And so we it's just been very hard to formroutines
that are supportive of the things I knowI need to be doing to stay healthy.
Well, and again,you especially because it is your job
to help all these people with this traumaas you go through the trauma yourself.

(01:21:45):
So I'm very proud of you for taking time,
and hopefully when you come back,they'll be you'll have discovered
that there are these windows that you needto use for yourself in your day.
Every day.
And I'm so happy you have Luna. Me too.
I have a bumper stickerthat says who saved whom?
What do you think, Luna?

(01:22:09):
Well, Amy,thank you so much for being here.
It's just fabulous.
And I love that you speak your mind.
It's a hard thing to do,even in this little safe space.
It's still hard.
And I want people to listen to thatand find their own strength.
And I think we all need to thinkabout Post-Trauma growth,

(01:22:29):
because we're all going throughsome amount of trauma or post trauma,
and it is a moment really
to grow in it, and it shouldn't belooked at as a detriment,
you know, like, oh, that person's got thispost-traumatic thing going on.
We all do.
And even, you know, in the work here,

(01:22:50):
we are trying to help people grow from
the trauma that has been put upon themacross the course of their lives.
And that's the only waywe're going to improve.
And in that improvement,I hope we all gain
a voice that speaks to loveand ethics and compassion.
Yeah.
And you are all that well.

(01:23:11):
And I'm so grateful that you helpedfocus people on exactly
this approach to, okay, what how do I holdstuff and stay in a place of love
and stay in a place
of gentleness and compassion,because that is what we need right now.
And there's a lot of other thingsto think about.
So your podcast,is it available for everybody today?

(01:23:32):
It is our kI dawg o u r k I dawgs podcasts.
Or just go to the websiteand you can find our podcast.
Mine is, the Friday RabbiBernstein's Friday morning Torah study.
Thank you.
And thank you for being here.
And pleasure and an honor.
And Amy has lots of peoplepaying attention to her podcast,

(01:23:53):
which only means that,
as I already know, it'ssuper valuable and very, very interesting.
So please pay attention to Amy's podcastand thank you for paying attention to ours
and hope you can go out in the worldand think about these things,
and do something wonderful with your dayin your life and take a stand.
Thank you.