The Critical First Five Years of Development: Parenting Tips from Dr. Cori Cross

We welcome back Dr. Cori Cross, a pediatrician and child advocate, who discusses the critical first five years of a child's development. From prenatal care to the challenges of modern parenting, Dr. Cross shares practical advice on fostering a healthy, balanced environment for children. She emphasizes the importance of being present and emotionally available, setting realistic expectations, and embracing the joys and challenges of parenthood. Whether you're a new parent or an experienced caregiver, this conversation offers valuable guidance on nurturing children in a loving and stress-free way.

Episode Transcript

(00:03):
Hi, I'm Cynthia Marks.
I head up the HolisticPsychoanalysis Foundation
established by my late husband, Dr.
Bernard Bail.
Welcome to the and Now Love podcast.
Dr. Cori Cross is with us today.
She is a pediatricianand a child advocate based in Los Angeles.

(00:26):
Lucky for us, we're based in Los Angeles.
She is a sadhu outand well-respected speaker in her field.
Dr. Cross speaks nationallyto physicians, parents and educators.
She makes presentationdesigned to help parents
and their childrenfind a balance in this digital world.

(00:47):
Hard job.
Dr. Cross is also a lead authoron the upcoming American Academy
of Pediatrics Policy Statementon Social Media and Children.
And that topic Social mediaand children, is huge,
and we're not going to focus on thatso much today,
but it gives us so many reasonsto invite Cori back a lot.

(01:09):
Well, I'm so happy to be here.
Thank you.Thank you for coming back again.
So this is our second time with Cori,and we're just grateful that you're here.
And I'm excited to ask you questions.
I wanted to talk about kind of the firstfive years of life
and what we can do to helpthose little creatures that we bring into

(01:29):
the world be the best little creaturesthey can, how we can
let their little brains developinto the perfect large brains.
And we want to hearall that you have to say about this topic.
Well, I think it's going to be fun.
I love little people.
They're so cute and cuddlyand we really are shaping them

(01:49):
in those first few few years.
And it's hard sometimes for parentsto strike that balance between wanting
to provide everything for themand then also letting them develop
the independence and autonomythey need to have that self-confidence
that makes them into really good peopleand really.
Hard to know when

(02:11):
they kind of
transition from being all about you
and needing youto needing some independence.
I think it's hard as adults to figure outwhen that happens, even though
this is someone you, you know,
sort of know like the back of your hand,it's it's a task.
Yeah.
I mean, we're going to focus on the firstfive years.
But really, I think as I've gonethrough parenting, what I've learned is

(02:34):
you have to understand as a parentthat your role changes.
And sometimes we're sort of lateto the game.
We don't realize that, wait, you know,you don't need me as a goalie anymore.
Like I'm over here now. You know?
And so I think it's hard for parentssometimes to realize that.
But you have to have that
changing role if you want to be ableto see your children change as well.

(02:57):
And I think we've all seen
when parents don't do that,that you've got the kid who's in college
like calling and, you know,having you solve every problem for them.
That's that's just not the ideal.
It might make the parent feel goodthat they're still needed.
But that's not the point.
Like, that means you haven'taccomplish the goals.
You know,they're just not always our babies.
No, they're not.

(03:17):
So here's my first kind of longwinded question.
Absolutely.
So it seems that the first five years,including time in utero,
are the most importantin terms of development.
Well, we just said that Dr.
Bail believed that the period spentin our mother's wombs
truly plantsthe seeds that shape us in this world.

(03:37):
Some good, some not so good.
He always said,Love your baby deeply and honestly.
Think about how your actions affect
this precious beingyou are about to bring into the world.
Pay attention to your baby.
Not just physically,of course, but emotionally.
And of course,now we are not talking about the work

(03:58):
that we must do as individuals,as grown ups
to make ourselves whole and healthy here,because that's another big topic.
But just on face value,it seems like we can do quite a bit
to planta lot of good seeds in these little beings
without going through these yearsof making ourselves whole again.

(04:19):
There's just some simple thingsI think we can tackle.
So say, for example,before birth, talk to your baby,
alleviate your own stressas much as you can.
Keep peace, share your happiness,love those around you.
Eat well.
I mean those are some good examples.
There are some other examplesthat are pretty far flung.
Like you have to play this kind of musicand it's got to be played 12 times a day.

(04:42):
And maybe that's great. Maybe that works.
But I think there are a lot of convolutedthings that are out there.
What what can we just simply do?
So for me, I was a new pediatrician.
The first time I got pregnant.
And so that's not the least stressful.
You could be doing.
It was it was an experiencebecause I had already been counseling

(05:03):
moms who had, you know, babiesand who were pregnant.
And then all of a suddenI'm going through it myself.
And I realized how much stresswe put on pregnant
mothers like they're going through a lotwith their body changes.
You can't sleep so well,
like your ankles are swelling,like there's so much already going on and.
It's all new.
And it's all new, and then we add to ita lot of emotional pressure

(05:27):
that if they don't do things right,things will be wrong.
I honestly, when I was pregnant,it was a lot.
I mean, I enjoyed being pregnant,but it was a lot.
And I remember just sitting there one day
thinking, people have been doing thissince literally the dawn of time.
It cannot be this difficult.
Like it shouldn't bethat there's this much to do.

(05:48):
And I thinkthe best thing that I can do right now
is just try not to stress about things,because I'm pretty sure if I stress about
if I'm doing this right or that right, I'mprobably creating more cortisol
and more stress for this baby,which I know cortisol is not great.
So I'm just going to like not worryabout all of this

(06:10):
and I'm just going to do the basic thing.
So for me, when I was pregnant,like I absolutely exercised
because I neededthat for my own stress relief.
But I also thought it was probably goodfor the baby to get that heart rate up
because there is a lot of thoughtabout what the baby
physicallywith the baby encounters in utero,
sort of like the body's prepping for whatit thinks the world is going to be like.

(06:31):
So I wanted to have a baby thoughtlet's exercise like not a couch potato.
So like, I was I we're going to exercise.
I ate very healthy.
I didn't do any of those bad thingslike smoke or drink or drugs.
Like those are the basics.
But then after that, I justI didn't worry too much.
Like, yeah,
sometimes I talk to the baby, my belly,sometimes I didn't, but I didn't worry.

(06:54):
And I think that really, whatever it is
that makes I think a mother comfortableis what they should do.
And that is what I sort ofbrought through too.
Even when you feed your child, right.
And so here in this country,
we have a lot of rulesabout how you feed your baby right away.
Right.
Like so, you know,first it's breastmilk and formula,

(07:16):
but then when you start doing solids,you'll hear,
make sure you give them the greensbefore the reds and the oranges,
because if they don't have the greens,they're not like they get the
sweet stuff first, then this or whateveror you have to start with rice cereal.
And I started reading about what they doin other countries
and I realized that other countriesdon't necessarily do this.
Some people start with avocado, so likelots of people start with lots of things

(07:39):
and most of them turn out with kidsthat are just fine.
So when I would have moms who would comein, they'd say, Well, you know,
I'm giving just greens
and I haven't given, you know,
anything red or orange becauseI don't want them to have a sweet tooth.
I was like, Is that what you want to do?
If that's what you want to doand that's making you feel great, awesome.
If that is stressing you outand you want to give like smooshed banana,

(07:59):
go for it because it really is about
if you have a happy mom,then the baby is better off.
And that's what I really believe.
You have a happy non stressed outmom who can give you
the love that they're feelingand they're not overwhelmed
with all of the other just logisticsthat really aren't that important.

(08:21):
You're going to be better off.
So go ahead and tradesweet potatoes before
peas like it doesn't actually matter.
Start with an avocado.
We might get some commentson this one, but.
I would I ended up doing I just did what.
Was easy for me.
I was Italian.
I was like, How many things could youactually be allergic to inside a meatball?
Probably not.

(08:42):
So much. Yep, that meatball.
And that's what you're going to have.
It was fine.I just make life easy for yourself.
But some of those rules are so oppressive,and you talk amongst
your friends and, you know, Betsy's like,Did you hear?
She's given the reds before the greens.
No wonder the kid's a little.
Lot of competitive parenting, right?
You don't realize it.
But like, a lot of timeswhen you're going to those groups, like,

(09:05):
you're going for camaraderie,you're going to learn,
But there's a little bit of competitiongoing on.
And I think the best thing a parent can door a mom can do is
just not buy into it, right?
Be like, That's great for you.
I'm doing this. Yeah.
And trust your own gut instinct.
Yeah, but the things that you said, well,yeah, I'm not going to drink alcohol.

(09:25):
I'm not going to smoke.
I mean, there's sort of like a base.
Rate that's actually based in science,right?
Alcohol is not good for a fetus smoking.
Not good for a fetus.
Not good for us anyway.
Exercising great for everybody.
You know, those are basicthings that we can all get behind.
But other things,I think if they make you feel good

(09:47):
and you feelbecause some people feel more in control
and that feeling in control is goodfor them.
Yeah, then great.
Some people just don't wantthe extra stress.
That's fine too.
I think keeping your stress level downand being able
to focus on the factthat this is supposed to be fun.
This is supposed to be a good time.
This is supposed to fill you with love,
that if you're getting sidetrackedfrom that, you're you're doing it wrong.

(10:10):
Yeah,it should be exciting and fulfilling.
I can only imagine that as a pregnantperson thinking about birthing this child.
And it's your first timeand it's overwhelming
and you don't know what it feels likeuntil you feel it.
There's so many different things you canhear about the right way to do this.
yeah.
I mean,you have to learn to settle with yourself.
And we even stress moms out withthey think that they should come in

(10:32):
with a birth plan. Right.
And every time a mother tells methey have a birth plan, I'm like, well,
that's lovely, however,but just be prepared
that sometimes the baby doesn't knowthe birth plan.
Right.
And isn't on board with that birth plan.
And you may need to pivot.
And if you do.
Everything's not going to go wrong.
Like if you end up having to havean epidural and you didn't want to,

(10:55):
if you end up having to have a C-section,you wanted to do natural birth.
Getting out a healthybaby is the most important thing.
And whether or not that child hold Mozart
while you were giving birthor not is not the most important thing.
The most important thing is focusing oneverybody being healthy.
And I think sometimes when we give parentsso many choices,

(11:15):
they start to feel like they're supposedto make everything perfect. Yes.
And if you just think about the factthat there are so many amazing
individuals in this worldwho didn't have perfect lives
but are still are awesome loving people,it usually like it works out.
Just keep your North Star and keep yourlove in the right place and it works out.

(11:36):
That's perfect.
Yeah, I can remember whenwhen I was pregnant and I was one of those
that I'm, you know, I'm doing thiswithout an epidural.
I'm going to be just fine. I'm so strong.
And there I was sufferingand I finally, like, raised my hand.
Nurse How do you knowwhen you're ready for an epidural?
Because it was so againstwhat I wanted to do?
And she goes, Well, you're askingthat It was probably a few hours ago.

(11:59):
Yeah.
So I just think we need to keepkeep the stress level down.
I also think that I have a real issuewith sleep training.
Now let's hear about it.
So for me and you know, as a pediatrician,we do know that SIDS,
so sudden infant deathsyndrome is something that we worry about.
And keeping a baby in the roomwith the parents in those first six

(12:22):
months is really the best
and safest place for them to be,but not in their actual bed.
And so for me,what I did was we had like a bassinet,
like a pack and playthat we put right next to the bed.
And that made it really easybecause my daughter had her own safe
sleep space, but I could also get to her
easily, nurse herwhen she needed to without leaving.

(12:45):
And for me we just kept the lights downand I figured if she didn't feel wet
or gross, the better was not to changethe diapers, just she'd go back to bed.
And so that made it very, very easy.
But I also think I couldkind of smell her.
She could kind of smell me.
It helps them to calm down and sleepreally well
because they hear you breathing.

(13:06):
Because if you figure a babywho's not in the room with you,
if you think about nature, a infant thatseparated from its mom should cry right?
It's like, Hey,you dropped me. In the forest somewhere.
I swear I am right. Come get me.
It's totally fine.
Right?
So you feel like they should havesome instinct that if they.

(13:27):
Wake up and they don't hear or smell you,they should make noise.
So I think that actually having the babynear you help.
Well, what is it that issort of the popular mode right now?
So I think lots of people do that.
Lots of people co-sleep,which is dangerous because I think
we get extremely tired, overtired,as anybody who's ever given birth knows.

(13:49):
Like I sometimes think when I was
in that sort of first few weeks,two months, I'm like.
Wow, I am one night awayfrom completely losing my mind.
And so you can imaginefalling into such a deep sleep
that you could roll overon to the child. Right.
And you often have two people in bed. Yes.
And so that's not a safe place.
But so lots of people,unfortunately, do still co-sleep

(14:11):
or they'll put them in a bedroomon their own with a monitor.
And that's fineif that's what you need to do.
I just think that sometimesyou do have a baby who cries more.
Basically what we did waswe did this with all three of our kids.
We moved her from right nextto the bed to them, like a little bit
across the room as she got olderand I didn't need to nurse her
in the middle of the nightand then eventually into her own room.

(14:32):
And when we actually brought herinto her own room,
instead of putting herright into the crib,
which was a much bigger spacethan the little pack
and play bassinet thingthat she had gotten used to.
We put the pack and play in the room,so she still had the same bed
and the same likeeverything was the same for her.
But now she was in her own room.
What they sort of tell you to dois to let the baby cry,

(14:52):
and then you go in intermittentlyand then like you slowly to make it longer
and longer until they wake upand they know you're not coming.
And so they don't cry.
My husband had read all about this
and he's like,This is what we're supposed to do.
And we tried itmaybe for 20 minutes to a half hour.
And then I was like, Can't take it.
I was like, This isn't going to happen.
And he he was like, No, it says,I was like, I understand that.

(15:14):
I said.
But I said, This is our first situation
where she is going to figure out,can she trust us or not?
Does she believe that if she hasa problem, we will come or we won't?
I don't care what the book says.
I want her to know if she needs me.
I'm there and she needs to trustthat I'm always coming.

(15:36):
I was like, So I'm going.
I was like, If this takes us years to dobecause I'm wrong, I don't care.
We didn't move her to her own roomprobably until she was about six months.
She stayed right next to mebecause we were nursing so much.
And then like there's another probably
another three monthswhere she was across the room.
And then I moved her to her own room,probably around like nine months.
So she was old enoughto actually understand a lot.

(15:58):
At that point, I think I wentand I was like, Look, I love you.
I'm going to come every time you cry,but you have to know you're okay.
And so, like,
sometimes I would go in and I'm like,Well, I'm not going to pick you up.
This is not cuddle time,but I'm going to sit here with you like.
So I would just sit in the roomand like, I'm
going to sit here because if you cry,I'm coming, but you don't need me.
You can do this yourself.
And yet maybe it took a little bit longer,but eventually I think, you know,

(16:21):
I'm not feeding her when I goin. I'm not cuddling.
She's not getting out of the crib.
So watching me sit in the chair.
You know, it was not all that exciting.
Eventually she stoppedand it. Didn't take that long.
But I felt like we developed a bondthat I wanted to keep forever.
And that's what I often would say tomy husband is like,
What am I establishing here?

(16:42):
And what we're establishingnow is the relationship
that I want to have later.
So I have to think about what these thingssort of translate to down the line.
And that's super important for parentsto think about.
I think some of us are just too exhausted.
We so many day to day, it's.
Like and all the bookstell you to do it differently.
So maybe do it that way.
But this worked for me.

(17:03):
And I have to say,I mean, Cory has three awesome
children, and whatevershe's done, we want to follow.
But. Well, thank you.
We were talking about
some of the simple waysto pay attention to your child in utero,
like taking care of yourself and all ofthose things are good for this baby.

(17:23):
Now that your baby is is with us,you've birthed this little creature.
What is that?
What does attention mean?
How do you how do you pay attention?
I seems like such a simple question,but how do you really pay attention
to your kids?
Are you with them?
Are you playing a gameor are you looking in their eyes?
Are you playing music that they you thinkthey might like or would sue them?

(17:45):
What is that?
I think the most important thingfor parents is to be present.
And that doesn't meanyou're physically there.
It means you're actuallyemotionally there.
So you're not bouncing themand looking at your phone.
Exactly.
I mean, there are timeswhen we have to do that,
but I think there has to bea conscious effort to be present.

(18:06):
So there can be timeswhen, you know, you're feeding
and you're watching a TV showand the baby's half asleep.
Like, that's fine.
Like, we all need that time to zone outbecause again, it is a constant as a mom.
So you do need that zone out time
that makes you a better momif you have that time to regroup.
So that might be looking on your phone orwhatever while you're doing other stuff.
But it also means that throughout the dayyou need to find time

(18:29):
to likelook at the baby in the eyes, smile.
They're looking at your face.
They're trying to get those reactions.
They're learning all about communicationby looking at your face.
It's why their eyes can focus thisdirect distance when they're born.
That's what they can see, right?
That's what they're meant to look atand try to understand.
When I make this face,she makes that face.

(18:51):
And when you make a particular face,there is a feeling like if you were angry
or sad, that feeling that you haveof anger or sadness would show up.
Absolutely.
Even when you're not face to face,when you're taking the baby out on walks,
you're speaking, you're always talking.
Right. And so that's really important.

(19:12):
The amount of words that a baby hearsreally helps them to develop a vocabulary.
And it just helps to to calm them down.
So you want to be speaking to your baby,even though they're obviously
not speaking that right.
And so it doesn't mean that you're makingeither gibberish.
You just speakinglike you can talk to them

(19:33):
and then also just spending timebeing silly.
So it's like very quickly you can hidethings or play peekaboo or whatever it is.
They're supposed to do a lot of tummytime,
so, you know, put them on their bellies.
They don't like that.
So get down there on your belly with them.
Be like, Yeah, that's what we're. Doing.
We're both doing it. We're both doing it.

(19:54):
Want to roll this ball aroundlike this, Mom?
Roll it back and forth, Watch it.
Just being silly, you know?
Like, that's reallywhat it's about in the beginning is,
you know, maybe paying attentionwhen you're feeding them.
It's just paying attentionto them and talking.
And there's a lot of what we call technoference where like,
you think you're with your childand you're putting the time in,
but you're doing this, you'rechecking emails

(20:15):
and yeah, we're working parentslike we have to do that,
but there has to be some timewhen we're not doing that.
And when you are doing that,even with your baby who can't speak,
do you say to the baby,okay, Mommy needs 5 minutes
to take care of this business phone call.
I'll be right back with you. 5 minutes.

(20:36):
Yeah.
I don't know at what agethey can actually understand that.
But I will say as they get older,that's very important, Right?
As they get older, it's super importantthat if you need to check out,
you say that you do itand then you come back.
That's importantboth because it's modeling the behavior
that you hope your child is going to havewhen they finally have a device, Right.

(20:57):
You don't want them just looking down
every timethey're supposed to be talking to you.
It's also important.
There have been studies that have shownI love this study.
It was done at a fast food restaurantwhere they watched
caregivers and children.
And so they would all get a meal.
They'd sit down
and they'd watch how long it would takefor the caregiver to take out a device.

(21:17):
And then they recorded what type ofbehaviors they noticed from the children.
Once the caregiver was distractedon the device.
And the caregivercould even be a mom. Right?
Like the person never interacted.
They didn't know if was a mom,a baby or whatever. Right?
So they just did the caregiver.
What they did notice, though, is that once
the caregiver takes out the device,the children would start to act up.

(21:41):
Right.
Sort of in a way to try to get moreand more attention or whatever.
And they would just keep being.
The longer they were ignored,
the higher they would sort ofgo to try to get the attention.
However,if the caregiver took a phone call,
like somebody was like, wait a second,I just have to take this call.
The children actually didn't act as badly
as if they were sitting theredoing something on their device

(22:04):
and it seems like the kids understand,somebody is calling.
You have to take that nowand then you're going to come back to me.
And that's okay.
Whereasif you're just distracted doing something
instead of paying attention to me,it feels different.
And so I think parentsneed to realize that
the kids are looking for those moments.
So if you're going to take your kid outto eat, try to be there and be present.

(22:25):
And if you can't and you have to answerlike six emails, say,
okay, I'm going to eat with you.
And then while you're finishing that,I have to finish these emails
and I just have to do it. I'm sorry.
Right?
Like acknowledge the fact that you'renot paying attention to them.
And I think that that makes them feelbetter because we all want that respect.
Sure.
And it certainly lets them knowyou haven't forgotten about them
and that your their feelingsare important to you.

(22:47):
Right.
Or, you know, something like, yep, I knowsometimes it stinks that we have to work
and do this at the same time.
But isn't itbetter that we get to do this,
you know, togetherand we don't have to work all the time,
so I just have to split this time. It'snot what I would like.
I would much rather be with you,but this is what I have to do.
Yeah, right.
Like, just letting them know that they'reimportant to you goes a really long way.
It's just communication.

(23:08):
Communicationall over the place. Absolutely.
So this level of attentionfor some of us just gets harder
because we've been givenadditional tasks as time goes by.
Perhaps now there's two babies,perhaps now we're working from home
and we're taking care of one babyor two babies.
We may have other children to attend to.
How do we find ourselves outto be able to manage the day to day

(23:32):
to pay heed to our own needsand our own worries
and give the attention to our childrenthat they require?
Is there an amount of timeor a certain type of attention
that could be prescribed?
Like is can I amI allowed to be distracted
for X amount of timebefore I start to upset my child?

(23:52):
I think it's sort of like buckets.
If you're doing a great jobfilling that bucket,
then you've got a lot of reservethat on the days
where you need to step awayand you need to do your own thing.
You fill them so far upthat they may not like that
you're not able to be there,but they bounce back quickly.

(24:13):
But if you're not filling the bucket,then the reserve isn't there.
And so I think that it'sa little bit of that.
I also think that as parentsand particularly moms
like we always talk about worklife balance.
But for me and maybe again, it's
because I was working a lotas a pediatrician when I had my children.

(24:34):
You're not balanced onany given day, right?
On any given day, you might feellike you're tipping one way or the other.
But for me, I always thoughtif I can balance the week,
if I can balance over like a little bitof a longer period of time,
then I don't have to worry that todayI worked this shift and I didn't see that
like try to balance because I thinkwhen we try to balance every day,

(24:56):
sometimes we feel extremely overoverwhelmed and there's going to be days
where you have more work to do and dayswhere you have more free time.
So I think that that's important.
I don't know that there is a threshold.
I also don't know thatit's about the quantity of time
I think that it's about a lot of times
not even just the quality,but just the connection.

(25:17):
When you're thereand I say it's not about the quality
because it doesn't matterif you're going out and doing something
Uber fun, it's that you're super present.
And so when we had our second daughter,I was nervous that my first daughter
was going to feel sort of neglectedand she'd been my world for forever.
Was shewhen your second daughter was born?

(25:37):
19 months.
What we started doing was she and I would
I'd take her on my like CVS runswhen I had to go and buy stuff.
And we'd go in and we'd get a little well,a little like six packs of,
like Oreo cookies.
We're going to get some comments on that.
Yeah. And, you know, she loved those.
And we don't havea lot of cookies at home.
So it was always like a treat.

(25:58):
And we would go and park on the topon the roof
where there wasn't a lot of peoplethat we'd see and we'd know
and we'd put on music and I'd let her sitin the front seat of the car
and we'd play music and put our feet upand we would eat our Oreo cookies.
What a treat. And it was so much fun.
And then I would always I would say, okay,I was like, This is our check in time.
I was like, because, you know,this is my first time doing this.

(26:19):
And I always say that like,I this is my first time.
And I say that even now raising liketeenagers, this is my first time around.
So if I'm doing something really wrong,please let me know.
And so I would teased and I say, Well,this is my first time doing.
This is like, how do you think it's going?
Like, do you think it's all workingwell with the new baby?
Like, do you think mommy,daddy should be doing something different?
You know? Do you have anything gestures?

(26:40):
And, you know, she'd sometimes think and.
She'd like talk.
But it also got her talking abouthow she felt.
I'm like, Well, how are you feeling?
Like, do you think this is working out?
She would chit chat a little bitand but it also made her feel like
she was part of the adult crowd,like part of the team trying to figure out
how to get the baby to fit in
and wasn't just about how she was feeling,but she felt part of us.

(27:01):
The baby's almost as important to heras to her parents. Yes.
And so I think that that really workedwell.
It was years later.
My two daughters were in middle school,and for Mother's Day,
they got me a giant package of Oreos.
And they're like, this is because youalways take us out for Oreos to chit chat.
It's like I do. I do.

(27:22):
You know, I think it's.
Like and that left a lasting impression.
So I guess my point is, is thatit doesn't have to be expensive.
It doesn't have to be,you know, big chunks of time,
like all I had was fiveextra minutes go and a severe sleep.
That's all I could spare.
But look at that memory that they broughtback and shared with you.
And and it's about repeating it, right?It's about making it.

(27:42):
Because I think that's the thing.
Even with little kids,we don't think about how much they
need to talkor they need to have that one on one.
It needs to be something that's consistentso that they can depend on it
happening again, so that if they havesomething to say, they know that that time
is going to come and that they havethat space to have those discussions.

(28:03):
And I think that that's importantwhen they're little.
I think that's super importantwhen they're teenagers too.
If you consistently make that space,they might not need to talk all the time,
but when they do,they'll know how to find you.
And I am sure you still make that timefor these three kids a try.
But I mean, everybody who has olderchildren.
No, it gets more and more difficult,but you have to carve that time out.

(28:26):
Well,and they become more independent. So, yes.
I think the other thing and I know you andI had talked about this a little bit,
so I want to make sure we get it in is
there are some really great thingsyou can do when you introduce a second
child into that relationship
that I think really helpsfor the first child
to feel less jealousy and to feeljust better about the whole thing.

(28:49):
And I think that, yeah,
you can understandif you're in a relationship with somebody
and then they bring somebody else homelike that's a little jarring.
Yeah, right.And that can be a little nerve wracking.
And as much as parents, we understand it,I'm not sure the siblings always do.
So one of the things I told my daughter iswe had watched the Grinch

(29:09):
a lot before her.
Her sister was born,and the end of the Grinch.
The heart grows like three sizes.
I told her I was like,That's a lot like Mommy's heart right now.
It was like, Right nowyou have my whole heart.
I said, And I know you think like,okay, here's this baby coming along
now you have to share my heart.
I said,But that's not actually how it happens
is like,just like my belly is getting bigger.

(29:31):
I was like, my heart's getting bigger too,
and there's going to be more than enoughfor you and her.
And so we talked a lot about that beforeshe was born,
that nothing was being taken from her.
In fact, I was just getting bigger.
Which was physically happening anyway.
So very believable. Right.
If thisis growing, certainly that could do.
Yeah, why not? Right.

(29:51):
But then somebody had to give me thiswonderful advice that while you're talking
and feeding the infant, it doesn'tactually matter what you're talking about.
So if the older child is in earshot,have conversations
with the babyabout how awesome the other kid is.
And so I would be feedingmy second daughter

(30:12):
and I know my other one was listeningand I'd be like, What?
You really love Peyton.
I think she's awesome too.
Just wait till you grow upand you can play with her
and she's going to be the best big sister.
my gosh. She's going to show youhow she can do all these great things.
You have no idea how well she plays.
I just knowshe loves you to pieces already.
I know you love her, too.
That's so obvious to everybody.

(30:34):
But she certainly loves.
You to do like she's going tobecause she really does. Love me.
I was like, absolutely.Do you see how she smiles at you?
No questions. Absolutely.
Trying to, like, plant those seedsso that they're not having
those jealousy needsis really, really important.
And then always, like wheneverwe would talk about the baby,
it was always like,did we tell you now we're having a baby?

(30:57):
What do we tell you?
Peyton's going become a big sisterand just making it focus on her.
And you don't realize
how just the way you presentit makes it about them and includes them.
That's awesome.
And I think, too, that a lot of us,you know, we're talking around
our children, around our baby,not with our children or with our babies.

(31:19):
And it's almost as if you think,what's the point?
Why? Why?
They're not.
But they are. They are.
Yeah, they suck it in. They do.I mean, I can't take credit.
That was a mother of fourwho told me that.
But I will say her children are allin their sixties now and still friends.
So I'm taking the advice.
Yeah, that worked well.
And yours are all still friends.

(31:39):
Yeah.
So just a little bit about thisa little bit more because,
you know, working from homehas become just super commonplace.
I think it's created this new dynamic.
How do we now do these two things at once?
I mean, some people are still ableto take their children
to child care, but a lot of us aren't.

(32:03):
How can that balance?
I mean, that's one of those momentswhere you're writing an email
and you're shaking a rattle and you knowsomebody else needs to be fed.
Yeah. Gosh, that's a lot of new stuff.
It is.
I will say that when I just had one childand she was very small,
the sling was really, really helpfulbecause I felt like,

(32:26):
you know, the little ones, they sleepa lot and you can keep them close,
but you still had your hands to sort ofdo everything.
As the baby gets older,whether you have one or two,
you're really trying to multitask.
And that is like there's some great thingsabout working from home because
you can have those minutes togetherand you're not commuting.
And rightthat you wouldn't have otherwise had.
But at the same time,

(32:47):
sometimes you end up with no real timebecause it's all multitasking time.
Whereasif you were going to work and coming back,
maybe there would have been moreof a distinction, right?
So I do I do think that that that's hard.
There's a new level of complexityto working at home.
And you do do hear about peoplewho it's no longer an eight hour day.
No So the time that you would come homefrom work and devote to your family

(33:10):
is now partially eaten up,sometimes by work.
It depends.
Everybody's in a very different situation.
To the extentthat parents can provide some boundaries
to their employers and say, well,from whatever to whatever time I'm
with my family, or really, I'm just notgoing to answer those emails right now.
And we'll just see.

(33:31):
Like I'm just going to have to you know,I've said that I wasn't working right
now, so I'm not working right now.
And sometimes people, just your coworkers,get used to the fact that
that might not be what they would love,but they deal with it,
particularly if when you are present,you're super present and giving 110%.
People oftencut me some slack when you're not present.

(33:52):
So I think that's important.
I think that though that is also the samewith children, right?
So when you are presentwith your children, if you're giving 110%,
then they cut me some slackwhen you're not present.
I think it goes backto, again, the whole communication thing
where you say, okay,I have to work from this time
to this time and I'm not going to be ableto really interact

(34:13):
if there's an emergency.
Yes, but this is this time.
But then I promisewe're going to go to the park for an hour
and it's going to be your time, Right.
Or we're going to go out to lunchor whatever it is that you're going to do.
And then they can see that when it'stheir time, it really is their time.
So then when it's not their time,they can understand that.

(34:34):
And I think that that's yeah.
And they'll feel safe knowing that thattime is coming again, as you said earlier.
Right.
And then sometimes I'll be like, well,I have to check these intermittently.
So, you know, you're going to haveto give me like a couple of minutes
every whatever to check it,but then I'm right back to you.
So I just think it's a lot aboutcommunication is really important.

(34:55):
And then also that they don'thave to be around you all the time.
Like you said, childcare is is expensive.
So for a lot of peoplethey can't afford it.
But if you're not doing itbecause you think
it's better for them to be aroundyou all the time,
it may be better for themto go out with a babysitter for 2 hours,
go to the park and then come backbecause you get dedicated work time.

(35:15):
They get some time with somebody elseand spending time with somebody
who's not their mom is also okayor going hang out grandma for that's fine.
Like, that's great.They should have that time away.
I think that's wonderful.
And then also sometimeswe lean on each other.
I'm hugeabout trying to do favors for other people
so that they can do favors for me.
So I'll take all three of these kidsbecause I'm going to the park anyway.

(35:38):
And then when I need something,I'm going to ask you to take my kid.
And this way, you know, because kids needthey don't just need their parents.
They need to interact with other kids.
They need to interact with other adults.
So to the extent that you can use that,so that you can carve out
your time to do your stuff,I think that's that's important.
And the same thing withif you have a two parent household,

(36:00):
you can really lean on each other
to really allow yourselvesto have some time where you're not having
work interference or device interferenceand can just focus on the kid.
Yeah, I think that's importantfor us to know that there are other people
who can love our childrenand pay attention to them.
We can get our job done or have our alonetime.

(36:23):
And I mean, there are instances where kids
aren't even living with their own parents,but that doesn't mean
they are necessarily denied attentionor love.
Yeah, and also kids are fineby themselves a little bit.
So with my own children,we didn't I'm not huge on TV
or devices that just wasn'tpart of like their childhood very much.

(36:46):
So I wouldn't be I didn't really put themin front of a television
and say, okay, I'm going to go do my work.
There were certain timesand they would watch some TV.
Of course, but a lot of timesI would give them something to do
and I would have something to do
and like, Well, we're both going to worklike you're stacking those cups.
I'm doing thisand they can't do it forever.

(37:06):
You know,it might be like ten, 15 minutes, right?
But they're part of the. Team, right?
I'm like,You got work time. I got work time.
Like we're going to meet in, like.
15 minutes and, like, chit chat and, like,you'd be in the same room, but, like.
Giving them time to do their own thingand, like, they fell down.
Okay. Nope.
I'm working.
You're working like,that's what we're doing right now.
And I will say that my kids are very goodat being sort

(37:28):
of creative, self-reliant, like.
And I didn't care if they're really stuckin the cups or the eventually.
Like what's great about kids isyou can give them almost anything.
Like, this is why I love blocksas opposed to an iPad with a block app.
You give iPads to a kidwith like a block app
and you think they're buildingand they can build
most amazing things on an iPadand that's great, fine.

(37:50):
But they're only interactingwith that device the way adult
anticipatedthat they were going to where a 0 to 5.
A lot of it is about exploringyour world and creativity
and so you give kids real blocks.
Well they may build they may alsodepend their food at a store.
They may pretend that they're ice skates
and go ice skatingacross your kitchen floor.

(38:12):
They do a lot of other things.
And when they build and things fall over,they're learning about physics,
They're learningabout how to balance things.
They're deciding what worked, what didn't.
They're readjusting.
Do rebuild, do I not? Right.
They're dealing with disappointment,right?
There's so much more.
So I think those very basic toysthat we gave kids is so much better

(38:33):
than putting them in front of,you know, even an educational TV show.
Give just let them do what what kids doand they're so much better off.
And it's I mean, obviouslythat's what we started with eons ago
was, you know, a stick or 12 sticksor. Yes.
And people figured out how to be creative
or throw things across the room or iceskate like you say.

(38:56):
Yeah, there's nothingkids can't do with a giant box.
Right?
And there's something to be saidfor three dimensions.
Yeah.
You know, but like, I mean, big boxes are.
Like, they were my kid's favorite thing.
What do we get? This box?
So there are kids who get this attention.
And then there are kids who don't,unfortunately.

(39:18):
What becomes of these two different sortsas they grow up?
I think it's very hard for kidswho don't get the proper attention
when they're little.
I think that it's greatwhen that attention comes from a parent.
It doesn't always, like you said.
Sometimes it comes from a grandparent,sometimes it comes from like
just a lovely caregiver that's beenwith them for their whole childhood.

(39:39):
So it doesn't have to come from a parent.
But children who are successful,who are well-adjusted,
they generally have a consistent
adult who's in their life, who they feel
they can lean on, who they feelthey are the center of the world for.
Like they just have
that person in their life who they knowis not going to let them down.

(40:01):
And it's that beliefthat there's somebody else there for you
that I think just makes you both knowhow to love, give love,
receive love, but also make youinto a really resilient person.
I think that it helps youto get through trying times.
There's been lots of studiesthat kids who are more resilient

(40:22):
have at least onetrusted figure in their life.
And then there's this studya long time ago about Harlow's monkeys.
And so it's quite sad.
But if you look it up,it's it's very potent.
There are monkeys and they're keptin cages and they're little baby monkeys.
And for one group of monkeys,

(40:44):
they have all of the basicsyou need to live, right?
They're given food.
They're in everything that they need.
But there's no mother figure.
The other monkeysalso don't have a mother,
but they're given a wire.
Mom that's covered with, like,some soft stuff and.

(41:05):
And the food as well.
And the monkeys that had the wired momto at least go and cuddle with
and have some sort of interactionwith did so much better
than the monkeys who had nothingbut like all of their needs
were met physically,but nothing emotionally.
Those monkeys basically lost their minds.

(41:28):
right.
It's really quite sad,but it just shows you that it's
not just about gettingthose basic needs met.
There is sort of an intimacy,a physical contact
that is absolutely necessaryfor development.
So it's justyou need to be physically close

(41:48):
cuddling there with your child,whether they're,
you know, two months old or honestly,whether they're 16.
Right.
We know that even elderly people do betterwhen they have a pet.
Right. Somebody to to cuddle. Right.
We know that, Nicki, babies do betterwhen they put skin
to skin with a parent or,you know, a person.

(42:11):
They can feel the heartbeatwhere they can feel the warmth.
And I think anybody who's everhad like a really good hug
and you're like, Wow, I needed that.
And you just sort of like feelthe other person.
You feel their warmth,you feel their safety.
You almost like can smell themand you're like, I am going to be okay.
And like, I think we need to rememberas our kids get older

(42:32):
that we tend tosometimes not be as affectionate.
They need that, you know, they're notgetting that from another place,
so they not that way.
Yeah, and that's such a potent
feelingand it's really hard to put words to it.
And That's I mean, that'sone of the great things about humanity
or knowingthat you're not the only person around

(42:54):
in that we can really give and take
just in that physical way,because these monkeys who we're
lucky enough to have just this wire for,I mean, we're not talking about
someone communicatewith you or sharing emotions.
It's just that physical touch.
Yeah.
Is so, so special, so important.

(43:15):
Recently I had my my 11 year old.
He sat on my lap and I gave him a hugand I was like, wow, He's like,
You're getting big, buddy. I was like,
I don't know what we're going to dobecause your mom is quite small.
So I don't know.
We're going to dowhen you get too much bigger,
this is going to bea little uncomfortable.
You're gonna be too heavy for me.
And he goes, I know what we'll do.
Like, I want you guys.You'll sit on my lap. That's right.

(43:36):
That's like there.
You get around, you know, he'll hold you.
Yeah, but I just think thatwhat I loved about him saying
that is like it was his faultthat this isn't going to end right.
Like, you're going to be my person.
Yeah. You know,and I think that that's important because.
Fabulous. Yeah.
Do some people who don't
get this level of attention

(43:57):
then ultimately go and find
some amount of attentionin the wrong people that they mistake
some sort of bad attentionfor just attention.
I'm sure that can happen.
I mean, I'msure there are lots of instances
where people don'tget the attention from home
and then they end up seeking it outfrom someone else

(44:21):
who isn't exactly their best sourceof attention, for sure.
And I think sometimes
you end up spending a lot of timeoutside the house and end up in like
maybe a group that you shouldn't be withbecause these people also don't have other
people to go home to. So, you know, itcan it can work that way.
I mean, thatsometimes you end up finding somebody else
who doesn't have somebody to go home withand it's their.

(44:42):
Great support.
Each other through it.
So I'm not sure it's always that way.
But I think it really doeshelp too, to have somebody.
And I think that is also it's greatwhen you have a parent
or grandparent who loves you all the time.
But I think that we can also thinkabout children
in our liveswho might need a little bit more.

(45:05):
And is it your niece or your goddaughter
or whatever that you can reach out toon like a little bit
more of a consistent basisand be there for them?
So I think that everybody can probablythink about being there for somebody.
Yeah, and we're talking about children,but that's the same for elderly people.
A lot of times they're very lonelyjust thinking about the fact that, like

(45:28):
sometimes those phone calls
are like 5 minutes for you,but the only person they're talking to.
Yeah.
And how many times do you hearsomeone say, my gosh, Well,
my cousin becameshe was like my sister, where people see
that they can fill a needor a void for someone
or, you know, my mom was great,but she was working all the time.

(45:49):
And I can't believe that our next doorneighbor, you know, came over
and played cards with me.
And I justI got all that attention, you know,
And as a community, we just kind ofhave to keep our eyes open.
Exactly.
And and you'll knowwhen somebody needs you.
And sometimes we're just so busythat we don't recognize it or.
We don't want to.

(46:10):
Yeah.
But and it's, it's
you think it's going to bethe biggest gesture that you have to make.
And sometimes it's very small gestures,but it's about consistency.
So this level of communication that wemaybe ought to have with our children,
I think a lot of us don't take itfar enough
because we think we'll show ourselvesas being too vulnerable.

(46:31):
We're not in charge.
We have frailties, we make mistakes.
How can we get past that?
I mean, because I think there'sso much benefit to being able to say
to your kid, okay Mike, I made a mistake.
I went away.I thought about it for a few minutes.
I'm back.
You know, let let's talkabout how what I did made you feel.

(46:53):
Why is that so hard for us? No, it's true.
I think that as parents,we think we're supposed to
one, be perfectand to always know everything.
And if we say that we don't,then we lose our credibility.
And I thinkif you think about even as an adult,

(47:13):
the people you respect as leadersor the people
you're willing to follow,they're not always right.
They're not perfect. Right.
They're not.
I mean, a lot of timesthe best leaders are the best bosses
are the ones who, you know,listen to what you're saying
and then make adjustmentsbased the fact of what you're saying.
And they're confident enough in their roleas leader or as boss

(47:37):
that changing their minddoesn't actually worry them.
Right. Right.
They don't think that their powercomes from being omnipotent or
omniscient or either of those right.
Like, for all they are right,they don't believe that that's
where their power comes from.
Their power comes fromjust being a good leader.

(47:59):
And I think that that'sthe same as a parent.
Don't have to do everything rightall the time.
I don't have to know everythingat the moment, the right way to do it.
But I'm a good leader as a parentbecause I'm willing to listen to
you and say, All right,maybe that's not what I should be doing.
Or sometimes I say, Well,
I heard what you had to say,and we're still doing it this way, right?

(48:20):
Yeah, right.
I mean, you're kind of a team,but yet you're in charge, right?
Like, I heard your point.
I'm still going to do it this way,But I did appreciate your input.
You know, thank you for writing it.
But Ialways like the is the Calvin and Hobbes.
Where he's always like,Dad, you're not doing well in the polls.
we're thinking of replacing you.

(48:43):
Always waiting for them to reflect to me,
right? Yeah.
It's funny.
I've been in that spot a lot.
He's doing well in the polls.
But I also think, like I dotalk to my kids about a lot.
I think I also show my vulnerabilitya decent amount.
And for me, I feel like
if I want my kidsto feel like they can be vulnerable

(49:06):
and show their vulnerability to me,
then I feel like that has to be somethingthat I show to them.
And I think that by showing themthat sometimes I'm sad or I'm vulnerable
or I'm scared, I think thatI can show them that you can be strong.
But that doesn't mean that, likeyou can't always you don't always have

(49:29):
worries or you can't do it all on your ownand you have to lean on someone.
So I think that it's really importantto show your kids
because otherwise you get these kidswho think that, A, they have to be perfect
and then B,they have to do it all on their own.
Can't ask for right?And they can't ask for help.
And if they show you they're vulnerable,then they're weak.
And that's just that doesn'tmake for a healthy adult at all.

(49:52):
Right.That's exactly what you don't want, Right.
So for me, I think I can show them, Look,I was scared.
It did it anyway. And you know what?
It didn't turn out exactly the wayI hoped, but it turned out pretty decent.
And now let's adjust.
And it's going to be even better. Right?
You learn something from that? Yeah.

(50:12):
Showingyour kids that I think is so important.
I often tell my daughter,my oldest daughter and I did do this.
That change is really hard for me, right?
I really love consistency.
I'm not a fan of change.
I'm super talkative and very outgoing,but meeting people
makes me nervous, particularly meetinglike a large group of people.

(50:33):
And so I always tell I was like, Yeah,I sat outside the hospital in my car
the first day of residencyand basically cried
that I was scared to go inand have to meet all these new residents.
And I didn't knowa single person in the hospital
and just a million thingsthat could go wrong.
And I just didn'twant to have to go in and introduce myself

(50:53):
that many times and like,how is I ever going to do this?
And I just like sat there and sat thereand sat there.
And eventually I called my husband,
who said somethingalong the lines of like, you're.
Basically an adultand this is something adults have to do.
So get out of the car.
You kind of.
Have no. Choice but to go again.
And by the end of the first day,I was like, Yeah, I felt like a kid.
I was

(51:14):
scared or whatever.
But I always tell her, like, you know,she was so nervous about high
school was like, Trust me,I was an adult feeling the same way.
Like, you don't feel this wayjust because you're a kid.
Like, this is something.
We all feel or a lot of us feel,and you're just going to have to do it.
And I'm telling you, it'sgoing to be okay,
but you're not going to know ituntil you finish your first thing.

(51:35):
Yeah,but this is what a good thing to share
with your kids, too, that you'renot the only person that's doing this.
And I get I can feel how awfulthat is for you, but let me share.
Yeah.
And there you're just again,showing a moment that you were vulnerable
and you know how you overcame itand how you grew from that.
Yeah, it's just this great communicationyou have with your kids.

(51:56):
No, and it does.
And it helps them
not to feel like my son sometimesgets really upset when he can't do well.
Or when I tell him that you know,something he did in school wasn't
wasn't great.
He'll write somethingand they'll show it to me like,
Is that really your best work?
I'm pretty sure
you could have written that niceror whatever, you know, like,
and then he'll do it again or whatever,

(52:18):
and he'll go to bed a or crankyand I'll go in there.
I'll tell him like, listen, you're.
Not a great speller.
Like,that's just, that's just the way it is.
Like I'm not a great speller either.
And you know what?
We're going to have to worka little harder at it, and that's okay.
But, you know, I don't love you because.
You're a good.
Speller. Like, I don't care.
That's all your life, right?

(52:38):
I'm like, I don't careif you're a good speller or not.
That's not how come I love you?You just have to spell things right
because that'swhat you have to do in school.
So if you don't know how to spell it,you're going to have to look it up.
But it does not change the wayI actually feel about you.
Like I love you for you likeso don't think you have to be perfect
or do everything rightfor me to love you, but
I am going to hold you to a standardthat I know you can do.

(53:00):
You just got to put a little bitextra work in.
So I think that that's important.
Like we can still tell our kidswe expect more from them,
tell them that what they need to doand be a little harsh.
But then I think we can also on the otherhand, say, I love you unconditionally.
I'm just pushing you to be your best self.
Yeah, definitely.
And unfortunately,I think a lot of kids grow up thinking

(53:21):
that love equals
good grades or, you know, love equals
getting the basketballthrough the hoop every time.
Right. And how do you grow up?
How do you become a full adultand how do you, you know,
pass that on to your children?
I mean, we just got to stop this.
And I think then sometimes you have adultswho are doing things

(53:43):
to try to fill a need
because they think that they'resupposed to do this to show success
and then to gain love,when in fact, that's not really
that's not the right way to do it.
And on top of it,it's not making them happy. No.
And it's just not. Love, Right?
Having children in our livesand loving them means that they are always

(54:05):
a priority.
They're healthy and happy existencephysically and emotionally really rests
on us.
Rests on us doing a good job always, butparticularly during this first five years.
Are there any other thoughtsyou have before we close on
how to give these precious beingstheir very best chance?

(54:25):
Earlyon, I think we pretty well covered it.
I think we did.
I mean, I would just say it goes so fast,right?
Those first five years go so fastand you feel like you're
just constantly spinning. At least I. Did.
And you always have more time.You can get to it later. Yeah.
And I think that the best adviceone of my friends gave me,

(54:47):
because she had had children firstand I was so person who liked to get
everything done was you're goingto have to accept an eight, right?
Like you used to keep the house at a tenor you used to always do the laundry
at this, this way and blah, blah, blah,always wash the dishes after you ate.
And she was like, Cori, she's like,You're going to have to stop striving

(55:07):
for tens or you're going to miss the stuffthat's important.
You're going to have to be okaywith an eight.
And she was right.
I was like,Okay, I'm not making the bed when I wake.
Up this morning. Like, That's okay.
You know, I'mgoing to spend time with the baby.
And there was just a lot of thingswhere I just reprioritized and said,
This is going to have tonot be that important to me

(55:29):
and I'm going to spend time over here,not just because
it's important for the baby,but because it gives me so much joy.
Yeah, you know, there's. That, too.
And I think like letting yourself say,
I don't have to do everything at a tenis really it's really freeing
because we try to beso good at everything.

(55:49):
And I think sometimes we're okaywith an need,
you know,and then put the ten in into the love.
Like that's where you need the ten. Yeah.
So perfect that you say thatthat's the most important thing.
Yeah. Yes. Well, thank you.
You are just a breath of fresh airand I think just.
I'm not going to have a baby.

(56:10):
I did all that already was wonderful.
But you just even in meas almost a grandmother.
Well, I'mnot a grandmother, but I would like to be.
Hint, hint.
You just relieve stress.
It's like we're all going to be okayif we just kind of stick to this
happiness, joy, health, love

(56:33):
and know that really one anotherwhere the most important things, it's
not about making the perfect mealor getting perfect car or whatever
those things might be.
So thank you for helping usfocus on people and family and community.
Thank you for having me.
I always enjoy being hereand talking with you.
Well, Will, welcomeyou back again. Thanks.

(56:55):
Thank you so much.
And let us know what you think.
We're happy to hear your commentsand we'll see you next time.