The Hidden Trauma Within: Dream Analysis and Exploration | A Case Study with Dr. Loren Weiner

In this insightful second part episode of "And Now, Love," Cynthia Marks welcomes Dr. Loren Weiner to discuss the profound impact of dreams on understanding our unconscious mind and personal growth. Dr. Weiner elaborates on Dr. Bernard Bail's Mother’s Imprint Theory, emphasizing how dream interpretation and analysis therapy sessions can uncover deep-seated traumas and guide individuals towards self-discovery and healing. They explore the journey of a patient named Jessica, whose dreams reveal the unconscious influences of her family dynamics and personal struggles. Through detailed analysis, Dr. Weiner demonstrates how understanding dreams can lead to waking up to one's true potential and living a more fulfilled life.

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Hi, I'm Cynthia Marks.
I head up the Holistic
Psychoanalysis Foundationestablished by my late husband, Dr.
Bernard Bail.
Welcome to And Now Love.
And welcome to Dr.
Loren Weiner.
Hi. Hi.
We're here to follow up on dreamsyou shared with us.

(00:27):
Two dreamsthat your patient, Jessica, had.
And that was amazing.Kind of a cliffhanger.
And we've got two more to talk about.
We do. So how?
I'll get into it.
I want to say that these are dreams
that come later in the treatment,and by later, I mean years.
So some people may be shocked by that.

(00:49):
What, it takes this long? It does.
Some of what we're doing hereis we're going deep into her personality.
We are looking at all of the thingsthat are sitting in the unconscious,
and it takes time.
So I don't want people to come awayfrom this thinking, okay, for sessions
you're in, you get to the deepest rootsand you're out pretty quickly
and that's how it goes.

(01:10):
So what happens in that five years, right?
Five years.
That sounds good. That's a good start.
Gosh, because what's happening isyou may turn up
this information,you may discover it in a dream,
but then the person has to really digestedand live with it, see what it's like.
Where does that person notice

(01:31):
those dynamics showing in their own lifeand work with it?
And then you get all kinds of thingsthat may be resistance,
Meaning you get a glimpse of something,you know it, you learn it,
and maybe it goes away for a whileand you have to bump up against it again
and keep working with it, keepworking it through in all sorts of ways.

(01:53):
It may show itself in the treatment,in the relationship,
meaning between myself and the patientand things come up.
And that's always a superdelicate dynamic, right?
It is. And it's expected, we expect.
And that's the set up of a treatmentis actually so that that does occur.
We want that.
We expect it because ifit's occurring with me and we can find it,

(02:16):
talk about it, understand it,
that means that personcan take that into the world.
And we know those same
things are going to be happeningwith every person in your life.
But at least with you, then it's almost asif a safe space has been established,
maybe even just unconsciously,where the patient can express

(02:39):
whatever feelings
they have, negative or positive, that theythink might be about your relationship,
but might not, that they can't experimentwith outside of the relationship
quite yet.
Hopefully that's the ideathat people feel free enough
to say what's on their mindthat that is at some point
absolutely going to include some upsetwith me, some complaint.

(03:03):
And sometimes they're very valid,you know, and sometimes you have to just
look at that.
And sometimes it's partof the transference, or it could be both.
And so you're lookingbecause if we look at Jessica,
one of the things that came out is
the brother would say thingsthat weren't very nice. Yes.
So I am thinking, okay, at some pointshe may experience what I say is

(03:25):
not very nice because this is part of herlife experience.
And the brother shut her down
and she might experiment with thatwith you and see if she gets shut down.
I guess. Absolutely.
And all of the charactersand all of the ways she's related in her
life will make an appearance.
And that is one of the thingswhere the experience with her brother,

(03:47):
where she sort of called him out
a little bit, was new to her,and she came to that via her dreams
and the interpretation with you,the collaboration with you.
Right.
Wasn't she's sort of likestepping out of her normal zone.
Yes, absolutely.
And so hopefully also in the treatmentshe can step out of her natural zone
and begin to say things, beginto see things and you want it going on.

(04:12):
You're going to expectit goes on in the treatment and eventually
that it makes its way out into her life,that the whole idea is that
this gets taken back into your lifeand worked with.
So for me, it was super great that shetook that chance with her brother, right?
Even though it didn't go howshe would have ideally liked to have gone.

(04:33):
But she spoke up.
She did somethingthat was out of her world.
So life experiencethen is is part of the treatment.
So your dreams open upthese little avenues
where maybe you're more comfortableto experiment
with something or you're saying,wait a minute, that never felt right. Yes.
And one thing that's important is,of course, I could say to her,

(04:54):
we'll just speak up.
I could have said thatin the first five sessions.
Perhaps what you don't getif you just say that
is an emotional maturityor an understanding and growth
that let her just speak upbecause it originates in her.
She has to begin to grow of feelingthat she's
allowed entitled to talk.

(05:17):
I can tell her, but it doesn't change her.
It isn't a feeling that she has.
It's more of a command from you.
That's right.
Yeah. There's a big difference.
Right then she knows it up here. right.
I'm supposed to be able to talk,
but what do we do with all the feelingsthat still say I can't do it?
So it may look slowerto have her go through

(05:38):
all the dreams, all the discussions,all of the back and forth to help her
change her deepest self, to feel,I can say something I'm allowed.
She has to have that feeling.
That's the change.
Otherwise it's all intellectual
and it doesn't change her feeling herself.

(05:59):
So I'm glad you started talkingabout that, because you must have intuited
where we were goingnext in the next dream.
So I'm going to get into this session.
I may interrupt you with a questionor two.
Interrupt away way. Okay. Okay.
As I said, we are years later.
I want people to really get that ideaand that this is years working on it.
We're not just working once a week.

(06:22):
So I know a lot of people thinkonce a week
is a good amount for those of us
who are working with peopleevery day, once a week is not a lot.
That's just the reality of it.
The mind is very easy at oncea week to sort of say, I hear you
and I can forget you.
Yes. For a long time
and come back and we'll touch on it againand then I can forget you.

(06:44):
So I just think people have to understandthat it doesn't mean you can't do it.
It just means it's slower. Yeah.
I wonder sometimes
if you're on a once a weektype of schedule, you really let it go.
Like, boy, that was a lot.
We talked about a lot.
And then you, you do, you forget about it.
And maybe your sessions on Fridayand Thursday evening, you're like,
my gosh, I got to scramble.
I got to get back into that mode.

(07:05):
And you've wasted all this timenot really absorbing.
We're talking to peopleabout how to be able
to learnmore about themselves on their own, too.
And I don't know howwe relate these two things
well enough because we really need you,someone like you,
to take us through thisin this most exquisite way.

(07:28):
And without you we can touch on it.
We can create this giant curiosity of you.
We can look at our dreams.
I know we talked about this before,but it's much harder to get anywhere.
It is.
But I would say the same thing.
Don't ignore yourself all week.
Yeah.
So in a way, if you're really looking,then you're paying attention
as often as you can.

(07:48):
And don't ignore your true self ever.
I mean, do whatever you can to realize.
Yet the real you is in there,whatever you need to do.
Yes, if you can do that and I look,I know it's not ideal.
It does help to have someoneworking with you and maybe there are
lots of therapists out therewho felt similarly to Dr.
Bail.
One of the things he talks aboutis really hitting a wall,

(08:11):
getting very depressed and saying,you know, I don't feel like I'm
getting to a place with my patientsthat I imagine I can get.
I don't feel they're changing the wayI want them to.
I am unfulfilled.
There's something more.
There's something more.
And so there may be other therapiesthat are out there
if they're listening and saying,you know, this also speaks to me.

(08:31):
I felt similarly, how do I get to a deeperplace with my patients?
And look, this doesn't meanthis is overnight they're changing,
but that the understanding about yourselfgets to deepen
in a way when you are talking to yourself.
So it would we need more therapistsdoing this kind of work to we.

(08:52):
Do whatever we're doing,
we're creating some sort of interestin where it's just going to spiral.
Let's let's hope. Okay, let's go.
Okay.
On this day, the patient comes inand she says, I'm just exhausted.
I feel like I have been just wantingto climb in bed and pull the covers up.
It's rough.
I think I'm just going through a lot.

(09:13):
There's been so much on my mind.
I'm trying to get myself back to feelbetter, really, just to have more energy.
But it isn't happening right now.
And I think I'm coming downwith something.
I think maybe a sore throat,but not horrible.
I'm just not my best.
And to top it off,I got into it again with my family.
I know I shouldn't go there.

(09:34):
I should have just shut up.
But I had to say something.
I told my brother he was abusive,verbally abusive, Any kind of hurt me.
Well, maybe.
But then I
felt like I had just done the worst thing.
I felt guilty and likeI was the bad one when I know it was fine.
He had it coming and he was again,just being rude.

(09:57):
Rude comments, not funny,even though he thought it was.
I just told him he needed to think aboutwhy he was always acting that way.
Wow. Like take a look at yourself.
And is this really how you want to be?
You hurt people and I don't really thinkthat is you deep down.
So I tell him all this and he's quietand he's taking it in,

(10:18):
but I kind of feel like he got angryand I felt like I should just shut up.
But he didn't say it.
I said, It's interestingthat you may have a sore throat then.
And she said, Yeah.
I thought maybe I got a sore throatbecause
I felt like I should just shut upbecause he didn't want me to talk.
And maybe I.

(10:39):
I felt that a lot.
I think it just took it out of me.
It's amazing how feeling something createsthis physical reaction.
That happens a lot.
We'll see it and we can connect it.
Sometimes people will say,I had an interaction with someone.
They were so cold.
And sure enough, a few days laterthe patient comes down with a cold.

(11:00):
So the body and the mindare very connected and we feel things and
sometimes if it's too much for our mind,it jumps over into the body.
And is it the intellectual part of us thatdoesn't want to recognize those things?
I feel like sometimes we might feelthat makes us seem weak, you know?
my gosh, I was feeling this wayand now I feel sick.

(11:21):
No, it doesn't have anything to dowith that.
I'm sick because
I was with all those little kids at schooland I caught their cold.
It may be you have toyou have to listen to what the story is,
what happened,what was going on in your life.
And hopefully you can discern.
Sometimes you can't,but hopefully you can discern.

(11:42):
Right. You actually had a feeling there.
And sometimes it's not that you aren'tfeeling, it's just that it was too much.
And so the mind can only hold so muchand then it jumps over into the body.
So it's a really good thing to sort of
sit with that and say, okay,why do I have this sore throat now?
Yes, what's going on?

(12:03):
And people have written about this,you know, that you'll get bladder
infections, you may get a backache,You know, your shoulders hurt.
What are you carrying?
We understand that this happens.
And so he or she is.
And there was an awfullot of pressure on her.
She fought it.
She said something,and then you see what happens, right?

(12:25):
So inside of her, she has to feel awful.
She feelsshe shouldn't have said anything.
She's supposed to just shut upand then she's tired.
So tired.
And this happens in a treatment as well.
People should know.
It's sometimes you really feel it.
You're working hard.
And that doesn't mean life.
A party in that moment, you may be workinghard and you're exhausted

(12:46):
because you're fighting somethingthe same way.
When you sayI'm fighting a flu or something,
you're tired, you take to bed,you might actually need the rest, right?
It doesn't mean thatthat's pathologic call.
It may mean, yes, this is part of mountinga fight against something.
I think Dr.
Bail used to say that basicallyall illness would stem from the mother's

(13:10):
imprint.
He felt that that all illnessoriginated in the emotions,
that that's really the placewhere it all starts.
And whatever trouble we can't metabolize
gets shunted over to the neighborand the body's the neighbor.
And so, yes, sometimes you will see dreams
where there is mention of an illness.

(13:33):
In fact, very early on thatit was laid down very early on.
But this is not uncommonthat a lot of times
we just can't handle everything
that comes at usemotionally and a lot comes at us.
It doesn't let us be our strongest self.
And then you're out somewhere, you know,you get hit by something, you may be okay,

(13:55):
but then you're out somewhere.
And of course, your immune systemis not its strongest because you've.
You're already on tilt. Yes, exactly.
So he feltthat was the origin of all illness.
It's how people can can think about thata little bit, see,
see if that makes sense to them.
So when you're emotionally overwhelmed

(14:16):
and even unknowingly,that has to spill somewhere.
Absolutely.
And who amongst us isn'temotionally overwhelmed right at the time,
if not all the time? We all are.
So no wonder ourimmune system isn't working
the best that it could.
I'm going to go back to this.
So she has that connection.

(14:39):
right. Of course.
I am not supposed to be talking.
We can also link that back, even thoughseveral years later we can link that back.
If you think about that dreamwith the choker.
Yeah, right on the throat.
So this is a big theme.
Am I really allowed to speak?
And so she says she had a dream.
This is the dream.

(15:00):
I'm in the city where I wasborn on the East Coast.
I'm with my mom and my oldest cousinon that side of the family.
I think there's a big storm comingor very strong winds.
One of my other friendsis there and he's a big drinker.
We are all at a table.
And I think my friend misunderstandssomething I say

(15:22):
and well, it's clearhe didn't hear me correctly.
He comes over to meand tips a wine bottle into my mouth.
I'm very upset by it,but I refuse to swallow any of it.
I shut my mouth and planto spit it all back at him.
And that's the dream
you can imagine.
You hear this dream?
You've heard the beginning of the session,and then this is the dream.

(15:45):
So you have to start thinking about it.
All right.
Where did her mind go with this,
given this was the main thing on her mindthat she started to tell me about?
I don't feel good.
and I said something.
I finally sore. Throat.
And I have a sore throatand I felt terrible.
And now somebody is tryingto put something in her mouth.
Right?At least you can build a hypothesis.

(16:07):
All right,so what does this have to do with it?
So she starts to associate, meaningshe starts to tell me her thoughts.
She knows how to do this at this point,which is
I want to hear what is shethink about each part of the dream?
What stands out to her, What comes to hermind, And this much as she can
just let her mind go, not worryabout censoring it, just see what comes.

(16:30):
What do you imagine?
So she says, Well, I clearly this has todo with the other night with my brother.
So that felt that way to her.
Now, just because someone says that to me,
I, of course, have to still question it.
Right.
But if she tells me that
and that's coming from herand we've been doing this this long,

(16:52):
I'm inclined to say, okay,that makes Sally it.
Right?
And she thought about it some moreand she was quiet.
She said, I have a feelingmy friend might really be my brother.
They actually look similar nowthat I'm telling you about it.
They're both really talland have green eyes.

(17:13):
I didn't realize it as muchwhen I woke up,
but when I tell you, it'sso clearly about that.
I know I had other dreamswhere the wine was supposed
to put me to sleep or keep mefrom knowing the truth of my life.
So here it is again.
This time it seems like it's meant tochoke me or at least stop me from talking.
So she's had many dreams where wine,

(17:37):
the family drinks wine.
So that's what shows upthat she's meant to drink it.
She's meant to drink so much,she goes to sleep.
She's so much that she gets little loopy
that she can't quite rememberwhat happened.
And this is the way she tells her story.
She's taken something that'svery prevalent in the family and her

(17:59):
dreams, her unconscious, uses it overand over as a symbol to tell the story.
And what she's sayingis, I'm not supposed to talk.
Nobody wants to hear what I have to say.
I won't.
I just have a glass of wine and shut up.
Maybe I'll have so much wineI'll pass out.
If I'm passed out. Great.
I even. Better. Even better.

(18:19):
No chance. I'll talk.
No chance. I'll say anything.
And it's not so much that.
Yes, the brother is on her a lot.
And we we get that.
But the reality is, in this family,
you wouldn't know thisif you came to dinner at their house.
You wouldn't think,they keep shushing the middle child.

(18:40):
No, she's talkingjust as much as anybody else.
A lot of the time it's that unconsciously
the message was, don't.
And I want to make that distinction.
It's such a big deal.
These people say, well,my family's not like that.
Nobody was telling me to be quiet.
In fact,maybe people were even encouraging me

(19:00):
to talkor would ask my opinion on certain things.
But it's that unconsciously.
And that's whywe need the dream in the family.
There was so much pressure that the women
don't really say anything of substance.
They can talkabout all sorts of unimportant things,
but if they start pointing outthe dynamics in the family or something

(19:24):
they don't like or somethingthey feel isn't being done the right way,
she wants you quiet.
So she hasn't been able to really beher true self.
Like you're saying.
Appearances are such thateverything seems great.
It's normal. They all talk and banter,

(19:45):
but unconsciouslythere's some control over that.
There's a lot of control over that.
And is that the internal saboteur?
It is what was set up in the familyas the dynamic.
Now when she obeys it, oftenit may be the internal saboteur,

(20:05):
but she's going to obeybecause all babies, children
obey in the family even when they lookrebellious a lot of times.
I mean, if they're rebellious,sometimes that can be a good thing.
But oftentimes when we get to the dreams,when we get down to the basement,
what we seeis that everybody is following orders.

(20:25):
So if the messages don't say that much,and we saw in the second dream
of the first discussion that she was also
not supposed to count, that the motherdidn't really count, she was a zero.
Yeah.
So this is also a womanwho has to walk in her mother's
shoes in a way, be her mother. Right?

(20:45):
It isn't just an identificationwith her mother.
I do it like her.
It is really that as a baby,
we all have to both take in an imprint.
So we're not our true self.
And we also have to be calm.
The mother and the father.
So you become the motherbecause it's your job

(21:07):
to make sure that this woman,your mother lives.
She survives all of her internal upset.
Otherwise you don't get to exist.
Well, your fear is you won't make it.
Yeah, right.
So, you know,if mother is too depressed, upset,
too much of a zero,how much can a zero take care of you?
And this is all in the unconscious.

(21:29):
This is all in the unconscious.
I start with the motherbecause the baby starts inside the mother.
But we will often be one orboth of the parents, sometimes a sibling.
We take on parts of people.
So one of the big questions
when people are talking to me abouttheir lives, if I hear something sometimes

(21:50):
I'll ask, What?
Where did you learn that?Or who does that?
Does anybody do that?
Anybody else in the family?
I try not to have itbe a leading question, but
after a while people get the hang of itand we're all then you can be looking
and this is somethingpeople can do at home.
You don't have to be in a therapyto do this,
which is start paying attentionto yourself.

(22:12):
You noticeyou do things like your parents.
Everybody says, I didn'twant to be like my mom, but here I am.
And I'm say, okay, well,try to catch yourself there.
wait a minute, but am I being my mom?
I didn't want to, but am I?
She always says this.
She only does it this way.
And now I only do it this way.

(22:32):
Or I get angry about the same things.
And I say exactly what she said.
You know, sometimes you don't even realizeyou're doing it, but you have to see.
That's great.
And then I think that just opens doorwaysto other questions.
And when you start to recognize
those things or those feelingsand a little light goes off in your head,
then you're sort of intriguedor curious about discovering more.

(22:54):
And look at Jessica.
She, after all these years, recognizethat this friend was so much like
her brother in terms of his appearanceand then a ha in my dream.
Maybe that is my brother. Right?
So she could put that together quickly.
Now, even she says when she wokeup, thought about her dream,
wrote down her dreamso that she could later tell me about it.

(23:17):
It didn't occur to her.
It only occurredas she was telling me about it.
So she was thinking about it again.
this starts to pop out to me.
I wonder if that could be that person.
Often a lot of the peoplepeople get very focused on,
I brought in this strange personI haven't dreamt about in years
and they're wondering, does that meanthe person's going to call me?

(23:38):
Should I call that person?
And occasionallysomebody pops up from the past and,
you know, people have an intuitionabout it, but most of the time
they're symbolicof somebody else in the family.
And that's reallywhat you're dreaming about.
You know, most of the timewe're dreaming about our life
and what's going on with it.
And so, you know, yes,if you bring somebody from your past

(24:00):
into a dream and you haven't thoughtabout the person a long time,
you have to start asking yourself,what does that person mean to me?
What's that person like?
What's their personality?
Do I like them?
What's the feelingI get when I'm talking to this person?
And in that way you can start figuring outat least parts.

(24:20):
You may not get the whole pictureof the dream.
You might, but at least you can startto figure out some pieces.
that's interesting.I but you know what, though?
If I really boil it down,that person is just like
my mom or that person is like my husband.
And then, believe it or not,a lot of times we have to go, Well, let's
figure out who your husband is.

(24:43):
Amazing.
That's an interesting topic right there.
That is an interesting topic.
We can talk about that too.
Okay,so you could almost go down a checklist.
This friend, tall, green eyes.
What about him?
Do I know? Did he make me laugh?
Was I intimidated?
Was I frightened? Did I love his company?

(25:03):
And you could see how you feelabout each of those statements.
Yeah. And then think about.
Okay, I get it. Yeah.
I always felt like I shouldn't.
I have to be carefulwhat I say around this person.
Who else makes me feel like that?
You probably get more proficient at it,but you're just thinking,
yeah, When I think of him,what do I think of?
And if you can let yourself now,sometimes in the beginning, you know,

(25:25):
you don't know where to go with it,so you're wondering what is it about this?
And you can get in the weedspretty quickly.
So I would say if you can stickwith the big picture there a lot of times.
What does it feel liketo be with this person?
Was I always sort of going like, yeah,
I like him, But, you know,I know he has a temper.
Right? Right.
And if that's one of the first thingthat comes out.

(25:46):
All right. Well, what about that?
Does that ever meanwho is it? Who has a temper?
And that's going to lead her back to herfamily, which is where she needs to be,
because that is where the prohibitionsgot started.
They didn't start with this friend.
Right? Right.
A friend represents something.
He was much later in the game.
He had nothing to do with thisgetting laid down.

(26:06):
Yeah. All the trash was already there.
That was already there, thoughyou may later find friends
that will keep you in the same position.
She could very easily find a bunchof friends or a boyfriend or whatever
it is who would like her to be quietand that'll be really comfortable.
And she'll like these people.
She may not always love the situation.

(26:27):
But that's what she knows.That's what she knows.
Isn't that what we typically do?
Yeah. We go to the thingthat makes us feel comfortable.
Whether that comfortable is a happy or sador good or bad place.
That's what, you know, we.
Go to the placethat doesn't make us break the rule.
We're always trying to not break the rule.
That'swhere the internal saboteur comes in.

(26:48):
That internal saboteurdoesn't want you to break the rule.
Don't rock the boat.
So only find peoplewhere you're not rocking the boat.
So in the internal saboteur, also partof your unconscious is that part of you
who's just too afraid to uncover the truth
because it's just too big?

(27:10):
It just blows everything up.
You can think of it like a security guard.
The job of the internal saboteuris to keep you
from touching your imprintso it stands guard.
So if her imprint in some way is
be quiet, anything she does
that pushes on that she startsspeaking her mind a little too much.

(27:30):
The internal saboteur, the security guard,because you are going to figure out
there's an imprint hereand you're going to break it.
And we can't have that that is deadlybecause that will put you back in touch
with the original painof getting your imprint.
We get an imprint.
It is incredibly painfulto the psyche bail felt.
You actually felt it like a physical pain,

(27:53):
though it is an emotional painthat splits the mind.
And of course, this is ongoing.
I mean, we're always going to be dealingwith the imprint and the security guard.
Yeah, you're.
Not going to be dealing with it
at the same intensity as you areat the beginning or even the middle.
Right.
And it will ebb and flowand you may bump into it
when something really gets stirred up.

(28:14):
But you know enough about yourselfand then you have a little discussion
with yourself and okay,I think I know what I'm in.
The middle of in itand it's not as frightening.
You can open the doorrather than slam the door shut.
Yes, you can.
You can begin to think about it.
So we have all of this going on.
So she is basically able to put together

(28:35):
that the friend in the dreamis really a symbol for the brother
and that this dream is a direct resultof the conversation
she has the night before and that she isgoing to be choked with a wine bottle.
And she says, okay, I've had dreamsthat have talked about this before.
I know this territory now.
We've been over this. I know it.

(28:58):
I don't feel as comfortablewith it, so comfortable with it
that I am not going to dream It is.
I'm still dreaming it.
I am still having a dreamwhere I am told to shut up.
But at least now she knows the territoryand that's a big deal.
Is that on some level frustrating for her?
She keeps dreaming the same thing.

(29:20):
Does she feel like she should now
stop dreaming that because she'skind of getting the picture for her?
I think yes. Sometimes that's frustrating.
It wasn't in this session,but yes, sometimes it is.
And I think for people, my gosh, what?
Why am I still dreaming the same thing?
And that's another important thingto know.
We humans don't change quickly.

(29:42):
And part of the reason we don't,especially with something like this,
is that originally this was life or death.
Her marching orderswhere you don't speak your mind.
So if you're going to fight against
that, right,you're going to rebel somewhere
deep down there is a part of you saying,But this is life or death.

(30:02):
No, we're not rebelling.
So she's got to fight herself.
And that at the end of the day,that is really what her treatment is
about, is discoveringwhat you are having to obey,
what rules, what imprints,where you give in.
And now how do you start to fight.
But you have to know what they are.

(30:23):
You don't know what you're fighting.
So she knows this now.
That's why I say she knows the territory.
The territory for her is she.
Don't say anything.
Nobody wants to hear from you.
She's luckythat externally, in her waking life,
she didn't turn to wine all the time.
She's very lucky that that just wasn'twhere she went with it,

(30:46):
because one could very easilysee how you might drink.
Right?
Because that would really fulfillthe purpose.
It really would. So she got lucky.
But I think that that gives people a wayto start to also think about that.
What were you not supposed to know?
Why are you to be in this state?

(31:06):
I would couple that withif you have a parent who drinks or uses
or is an addict in some wayor does anything, you may also do it
because you had to becomethat parent also.
So in the wayyou had to take care of your parents
and make sure they survivedso that you survived.
You take them in, you become them.

(31:28):
So you may have two forces working on youwhen it comes to addiction
or something like that, which is youmay be part of a parent who does it.
And there may be lots of messagesthat came at you
that you were not to knowall kinds of things.
And what's an easy way to not know?

(31:48):
You get yourself high on something.
You get yourself out of your ownmind enough and you're no threat.
And then even outside of your feelings,just environmentally or intellectually,
that's what you seeand know it's acceptable.
And so you perhaps partake.
Is that separate from the imprint?

(32:10):
If you grow up in a house where. Right.
It's all part of it,but I might say there's there's
going to be
the deepest unconscious piece andthen we're going to have the layers up.
I think living in the house with people,it's a little hard
to tease out and say, well,this is just what you see people doing
because they're doing thatand it comes with an unconscious piece.

(32:31):
So it isn't alone.
But yes, one might say thatthat's the uppermost layer,
right, is yeah,this is how I saw everybody do it.
But they were also all communicatingunconscious early the whole time.
I see.
And they came with their own imprint,which was I'm
not to have a voiceor I'm not to feel my feelings.

(32:53):
Or I'm not supposed to knowwhat's going on.
I'm not really supposed to be successful.
I'm not allowed to havewhatever life one may have wanted
or imagined and drinking,using you name it, whatever it is
doing all kinds of dangerous things,maybe even being suicidal.
Right.
And battling that may all bein the service of this imprint.

(33:16):
And it may look likeit's all kinds of other things.
And really,we want to get down to the base of what?
Why aren't you supposed to be here?In what way?
Because imprints are specific, though.
They're simple.
So somebody may be suicidal versus
us actively using alcoholall the time, even though they both

(33:36):
may have some type of I'm not to be heremessage.
It's going to be very specific.
And that's why you get different responsesand the people have different lives.
And this all stems from traumaearly on in the womb.
But we're not able as infants, babies,
children to access any of this.

(33:58):
And so we're walking this paththat isn't ours
until well into adulthood.
Well, we're always walking it.
That's the idea. Nobody knows.
I mean, very few peoplereally have gotten to know about this.
That's why it's so important to sharethat all of this is going on.

(34:19):
And there are reasons.
It isn't just, this is who I am,and we are all traumatized.
And I say that in all seriousness,that people really need to understand
and that even most of the timewhen it looks okay,
if you dig into it,the dreams will say, but I'm not okay.
And it may not be as severe.

(34:41):
Obviouslywe're looking at things on a continuum,
but the dreams really revealhow wounded, how hurt
and how disconnected from our true selveswe all are.
And I think that's a really importantmessage for people to understand.
We all like to sort of say, well,but it wasn't

(35:02):
that bad or you know, that I'm okay,or This is all right.
And we livewe live in a world where we accept
enormous traumasas though we have to accept this.
Why do we have to accept a war? Why?
but this is how it's always been.
Why does that mean we have to accept this?
What good have we seencome from this ever?

(35:24):
Has it really made thingsthat much better?
It's surprisingwe haven't imploded already.
So we don't have to accept things,but we have to accept it.
If we've accepted an imprintand we all had to accept that.
So that lays the foundationfor why we just accept things.
And look at what we accept about women'splace in the world.

(35:46):
Well,and this is why this will all continue.
We accept our position, the world.
We accept that women are allowed to betold and made into a zero.
As my patient stream says,you get to be a zero like your mother.
That's what you're given. Tragic, tragic.
And this is happening to most womenall over the place, all over the world.

(36:10):
And so they have to get anywhere first,have to fight something inside the system.
We don't think of youas a first class citizen.
But women have come to accept thatthey're not often. Yes.
Unfortunately. Yeah.
So we think, okay, we're fighting,but the base assumption is wrong.
I, I Why do I even have to fight this?

(36:32):
There should be no fight.
This is not a question.Why did I accept this?
Why are we accepting this.
Guy off track again?
Okay, but I like to get offtrack on those topics.
So she knows thatthis is now connected to the family
and this is about her being quietand we are back in that territory.
She next says to me,

(36:53):
I think that when I was littleI had no choice about drinking the wine.
Now, not really drinking the wineemotionally drinking the wine.
But now in this dream,I feel like I can't stop him
from doing itfor some reason in the dream.
But I don't have to actually drinkthe wine.
I wake up beforeI can spit it back at him.
Maybe that was too much for meto actually do without waking myself

(37:16):
up, but I was pretty angry about it.
My mom is there in the dreamand doesn't say anything, so the patient
neglected to tell me about the motherwhen she told me the dream.
And we're having a whole discussion,right?
We're three quarters of the waythrough a session.
I don't hear anything about the mother.
And then there she is.
And there she is in an association.

(37:38):
She only comes in because she startsto tell me more of a story.
Why doesn't the mother show up?
And that's the big question tothe patient, even as you hear the answer.
It's interesting.
She says, Well, I think her cousinis there and she's one of the better ones.
So even then it's a littlea little slippery around.
But why is in the mother there?

(37:59):
What does she mean byshe's one of the better ones.
Meaningshe's one of the people in the family
who will talk more about the truthof what went on in the family,
more about the feelings.
But still, none of themreally want to get into feelings.
I mean, they might complainabout things in their lives,
but they just don't really want to knowhow you're doing.

(38:21):
Keep it all light and fine.
Don't share anything you're upset about.
Nobody wants to hear it.
So back and forth, we have a discussion.
And what I said to her was, so she neverlearned how to handle her feelings.
So then she can't help you with yours.
She just does.
Statusquo. This is how we did it in my family.

(38:42):
This is how I'll do it with you.
She doesn't know how to do this.
She doesn't know how.
She doesn't know in her mind. Right.
It doesn't feel abnormal.It isn't, though.
She's sitting there saying, keep it light.
This is all unconscious.
She just does.
She just naturally doesn't go there.
Well, and we all do that,I guess, to some degree.
When someone says, how are you?
Do you ever say you got a few minutes?

(39:03):
Right.
We don't we don't really mean it right.
That's that's just in passing.
So then she says, I think my brother isjust like my mother's father.
He can joke around and be very cutting to.
I was thinking about that, like,why is he that way?
And what does he really think he's doingwhen he treats people that way?

(39:24):
And why have my parentslet him be that way?
This isn't the first timeshe's asking these questions,
but we have to come back to things a lot.
Yeah, this is one of those pieces.
I feel like we talked about thisin the first dream, right?
Do they even recognize that their son is,
in this way disturbing?

(39:45):
I mean, their imprints would allow him
to be that way,and somehow that is what is comfortable.
Even though they comfortable they.
Know because he turns it on them.
I don't know that they would beas bothered if it was solely
on the other two kids,but he turns it on them as well
so nobody gets away from it,but they don't stop it.

(40:07):
Maybe a little comment here, though.
That's not nice.
Yeah, they make a show of stopping it.
I said they don't really stop it.
Nobody really sits downand has a talk with this guys.
What in the world is going on? Yeah.
You know, what's up.
Well, I said if you if you connectthat to your mother's father,
then that's probablywhy Mom kept her father close

(40:30):
and doesn't tell him how to behave,because kids
don't usually get to tell the parentshow to behave.
So she says,All right, he's really my grandfather.
The brother had to take on the rolewhere the personality of the grandfather
there, that's whatthe mother brought to that child.
So he doesn't get to be himself.

(40:50):
We don't know what the brotherwould be like, but now he's a repeat.
Now not identical twin.
They're not exactly the same,
but he's got enough of the flavorof how the mother's father was
that she's comfortable and,comfortably comfortable,
and the other two kidsget to have her experience.

(41:11):
So that repeats as well, right?
We get to just see that this is just overand over in every direction,
all kinds of repetition,
every way that people are not reallyallowed to be themselves.
And they have to takeon all of these different roles.
So sometimes he's the grandfather becausethe mother needed that in some way.

(41:33):
We're bring these things inbecause we need it in some way.
And that grandfather was part of themother's imprint, part of her upbringing.
Part of her experience,where she wasn't allowed to say anything
and where she was a zero.
So the brother now embodies
the part that doesn't let anybody sayanything that.

(41:55):
Shut her down. That shut her down.
And so when she was carryingthe brother in her womb,
she was transferring that bit to him.
Boy, it's complicated.
It is when you first start jumpinginto it, but you just have to keep in mind
that all of the major players in your lifeare going to repeat

(42:19):
and we're
just going to be looking for themand they're going
to find their way into your children.
So you have to lookand your people say, he gets that.
We know that comes from the father's sideor the mother's side.
People have been saying that.Right, Right. I mean, we say.
That more than just with the red. Hair.That's right.
We say it about eyecolor and hair color and and also.
But you hear it right.
He's got a temperament like him or he'sjust like him.

(42:39):
I think if people start paying attention,you realize, wait,
this is going on everywhereand you can find it.
It's not actually that mysterious.
Yeah, I know.
We keep it so surfaces like, that'swhy he's so funny.
Exactly. But maybe.
Another thing. Exactly.
I say that.
So this is what's happening here,that the mother is allowing this

(43:01):
because this is what she grew up with.
And she wasn't allowed to tell the father.
No, she wasn't allowed to say, Dad,enough.
Shut up. Don't talk to me that way.
I deserve better. Don'ttalk to Mom that way.
She deserves better.
Wouldn't be greatif kids could say those things.
And sometimes they do.
Just the outcome isn't always that good.
But you know, you'll hear little kidsand sometimes they say, Shut up, mommy.

(43:24):
That's right.And then that's not very well received.
It's never. Well received.
They're rude.
And sometimes they're pushing a limitand sometimes you trespassed.
Sometimes you have to look and say, Well,why did that little one respond that way?
Yeah.And sometimes you owe the kid an apology.
Not always.
But. Sometimes. Sometimes you do.
Or sometimes their child has been given

(43:46):
the message,whether overtly or covertly, to shut up
and the child is now going to reflectto you too much.
Right?
I've been told this so much,it is now bursting out of me.
So I will tell you now, Mommy, shut up,because this is what I'm
now having to listen to in my mindall the time.

(44:07):
And sometimes it'sjust plainly in the home people
that'show people are talking to each other.
That's how they're talking to the child.
So we're also we'rekeeping all of these layers in mind.
And it sounds overwhelmingand confusing at first, but it isn't.
You just have to startbeing very organized about the way
you start looking at the environmentand who's saying what,

(44:29):
how is it goingand where did all of this come from?
And you can start to see how the layersaffect each other or overlap or overlap.
That's right.
So I say this about mom with her fatherand then she says,
and he used to act like my brotherall the time, probably much worse.
This she's speaking about her grandfather.
I think he was really a piece of work.

(44:52):
My mother doesn't say a lot about it.
I don't know if she tries
to protect us from itor doesn't realize how bad it really was.
Her sister, my aunt, is the exceptionand is willing to say more.
She is more connected to her feelings,
and I learn more abouthow the family was from her.
But my sense is that none of the kidsever talked back to the father,

(45:15):
and I don't think he was ever lookingto know whether they had any complain.
It's that just wasn'teven a consideration.
He just said whatever he wantedand ran things the way he wanted.
That was that.
So we start to see that the brotheris connected to the maternal grandfather
who was allowed to just dowhatever he wanted as the brother does so.

(45:37):
And I ask her, So why doeswhy does your father let it happen?
What do you think?
And she said, That's interesting, too.
And she thinks but she says,I think his father was not all that
different either.
Very cold cut off from his feelings.
He probably had the bigger temper.
Like maybe in the dream.
It kind of reminds me of the few badstories I heard about that grandfather.

(46:00):
He could snap.
So I said, Sure, you get it on both sides.
And you can seewhy the mom and dad came together.
You can see whythe mom and dad came together.
They would understand that know each otherthat's familiar
in the in the best scenario,they might help each other with it.
But typically what is you know,it just gets repeated.
They just live with it. Well,you don't know.

(46:21):
There's something to help. That's right.
You don't.
So we were talking about how her parentswould have felt this way unconsciously,
that they both carrying their fathers,
their mothers, too, but their fathersand the mothers that didn't
stop the fathers because they didn't feelthey were supposed to have the power.

(46:43):
So both parents have inside of them
their own set of parents,
one that can snap or be coldor rude or demanding,
and one that doesn't feel entitled,
worth enough to stop and say, no.
That must take a while to get to, becauseI would imagine you could initially

(47:08):
look at that sort of more overt thing.
This man was so controlling,was all about whatever he wanted.
And my mom, she was so niceand it's harder to kind of look at the mom
and go, Well, wait a minute,you don't have to take this.
Right?
And you have to seehow people feel about that.
And sometimes it takes a while for us

(47:28):
to get to truthfully talk about,well, wait a minute.
Mom didn't feelshe was allowed to say anything.
And yes, may have been a victim or not.
Mom may have colluded in certain ways.
Mom may have just felt likeshe was such a zero.
How she can't possibly say.
Mom may have been terrified she'd be left.

(47:48):
And how was she going to take care ofthree kids with one salary?
So all of the problems people think about.
But we have to see that each person
is caring inside that relationship.
And it laid down a certain way of being
how it's going to echothe imprint in a lot of ways.

(48:12):
So if it didn't even enter into thatmother's mind that she had a foot to stand
on, the thought didn't cross her mindthat would be transferred also then.
Yes, that might be transferredin Lot of times what happens
is maybe somebody doesn't think about itthat way, but they should know.
They get angry, right?
They know they get depressed.

(48:33):
You may start to get all kinds of things.
You may get some depression in the personsitting in front of you that.
You can see.
The outcome stemsfrom the person's own life
and also will find its way back.
What what do you dowhen you've got a mother who felt care?
I am. I'm a zero.
I've got to take this.

(48:54):
I don't want to.
What do I do?
She's going to have a feeling about that.
So we'realways looking at the full picture.
We're lookingat the unconscious of both parents,
and that's always finding its wayinto the dreams of the patient.
We're looking to see who the patient hasto be at any given moment.

(49:17):
Are you the mother?
Are you the father?
Who are you responding like?
Are you a grandparent?
Who are you and what are you allowed?
Do say, be, feel, talk about.
And in many, many ways, millions of ways.
How does it get interrupted?

(49:37):
And we have to goand this is why takes years.
It isn't that we don't oftenwe can get big ideas.
It's that we're trying to change the basefunctioning.
We're trying to build a placewhere you don't have to be your mother
every time you feel anxious,every time you do anything.

(50:00):
Because sometimesthere is so much of a parent there
that there's almost no patientsitting in front of you.
Believe it or not, that personalmost doesn't exist
because there was so little roomfor that person.
And that's
kind of an interesting idea.
So it may take a long time,

(50:22):
depending on what the dream show you,
to get to a placewhere you get a foothold,
you get enough space for that personto start to speak, come back to life,
feel things, take a look at the worldthrough his or her own eyes.
I can imagine It's it's like tryingto catch a little fly with chopsticks

(50:44):
I mean, I can't figure out howyou would even catch on to that dreams.
You build it through dream by dreamand the dreams will show you
the person will speak and say, Here'swhat happened to me Hidden in the closet.
I'm buried under this.
I dissolved into a little grain of sand.
Now I don't want to scare people.
my God. I'm not going to therapy.I'm going to find out.

(51:05):
I'm not even a real human being.What are you talking about?
Most of the time,if that's going on, you already know it.
You feel it.
You're coming into my officebecause you don't feel good.
In your life.
You may have no clue, but you know,you don't want to feel like this. Exactly.
So I want people to knowit isn't most of the time.
I mean, yes, people may be a littleshocked to say, wait, you don't even feel

(51:28):
I'm a real person,but that is not going to shock you.
You know, your life isn't goingthe way it should be going.
So I don't want to scare people. Right.
You're going to come into my office. Go.
Please help me feel better.
I'm going to say, okay, well,let me show you
why you're not feeling goodin the first place.
And here is how we can start to helpyou feel better.

(51:49):
And I don't want to sugarcoat it.
It's work and it is not fast.
And you have to go over things, right?
We got a sense that she already knew
the brother was connected to a parentvery early on and then it gets forgotten
or lost or we're back to itor we're going to deepen it.
And a lot of times we're deepeningit, right?
We're connecting it and.

(52:10):
Okay.
And, you know, big things came upin this person's life in the interim.
And so the mind was occupiedwith other things.
And she moved away from the familyfor a while and then she's back.
And so the conversation resumeand the focus
may come back to that, thougheven if you're not living anywhere near
your family, chances areyou're still dreaming about your family.

(52:32):
You're still relating to me as thoughI'm part of the family sometimes.
So it's alive and well.
Well, in doing that is thereis that the internal saboteur that saying
you'll feel better if we just give youdistance, physical distance between you,
that might solve the problemeven though it doesn't absolutely doesn't.
Yeah.
And sometimeslook at it does solve some problems.

(52:55):
I mean, I think there is a realitythat some people move far away
and they are in certain ways relieved
you don't have the guiltthat you're not visiting more often.
You don't have somebody droppingby unexpectedly.
You're not called over to helpand do things and do this and that.
It relieves that.
It just doesn't change anythingdeep inside.

(53:16):
So, you know, yes,
the family still goes with you,even if you move 10,000
miles away, you will still be wrestlingwith the dynamics.
But you may be relievedof some of the day to day.
And for some people, hey, that's good.
I'll take it.
And maybe it does give you a little spaceto breathe and further explore

(53:36):
it yourself. Yeah. Right.
Because you're not havingto only be occupied conscious sleep too.
If you're completelyunconsciously occupied, maybe you don't
also want to be consciously occupiedall the time with those people.
So I was saying to her that she knows
she's going to comeby this on both sides of the family then.

(53:57):
And I said unconsciously, This is goingto be in both of your parents.
And we can see nowwhy nobody's really stopping the brother.
And she says she thinks consciously to
none of them really want me to saythe things that I say,
but now that I know them,I feel like I have to say some things.
I'm careful.
I'm not looking to be the oneeveryone hates.

(54:19):
But also I think it's good for themto see some of the things
that are happening in the familywithout us knowing it.
So she's finding her voice.
And I said, So I guess if you chokeor you get so drunk
you can't remember anything,you're no longer a threat.
And she said, It'sso strange to see how all of this happens,
but I keep dreaming about it.

(54:41):
And I said, Well, here you fight back.
You don't swallow the wine.
You're not going to build your sensesor lose your memory.
You now know what you've learnedabout yourself and your family,
and you can't be forced to swallowthe old way anymore.
No wonder you're tired.
It takes a lot of energy
to fight right now, but that gets easierthe more you do it.

(55:03):
And that's the at home.
And in her being able to speak up now,
she now has this informationand she feels like she can't help.
But yes, say something.
Is that
mostly because she needs to be her true
self and honorwhat that is rather than covering it up?
Or is she protecting her familyfrom each other?

(55:28):
I see. You mean so.
So she's going to now cometo the defense of the mother, you mean?
Yeah, it's a good question.
I think you have to see which way it goes.
This dream here would say she'sfound her voice, at least to some degree.
She's still a little afraid.
She doesn't want to be the oneeverybody hates,
but she's going to not swallow it anymore.

(55:51):
Then what we have to look for iswhat does she do with it?
Right?
So she's got a feeling we see here.
It puts her to bed.
That getting stronger.
There is then a backlashand they don't want me to talk.
I said something.
I have to feel terrible about thisand the reason this takes a long time is
she has to build the part of herthat does it again.

(56:14):
I could tell her, Just speak up.
You have every rightto speak up in your family.
And of course we talk about those things,but I have to do it using the dream,
because the dream is where the feeling is.
So the
feeling here in this dream isthey really don't want me to talk.
They're going to jam this down.
And then we get her.

(56:35):
There's a fight.
She's going to fight back.
Now, whether she starts to protectthe mother, she might she may do that.
And what we have to dois wait for the dreams and her discussion.
What does she come in with?
You know, what's she thinking about?
Where does it go?
Do we get another layer where she justis protecting mom all the time

(56:55):
from the brotheror the sister is a surrogate?
Maybe you have to wait and see.
So you don't know.
But what you're trying to do each time isget it accurate enough from the dream
so that her mind grows,that we're not just
going over the same territorywithout some change.

(57:15):
The mind wants to throw a little bit morein or it wants to say where it got stuck
or it wants to be upset about somethingthat didn't go right in the treatment.
It may do all kinds of thingsas the mind is developing
and she's coming back to life.
And she's potentiallygrowing feelings about things

(57:36):
too, where maybe she had the abilityto feel this much.
Now she can feel this much.
You could say growing feelings.
I would sayshe's getting in touch with them
because if your silence asked,you may silence a lot of things,
not just your voice,you may silence your feelings, She says.
Nobody in the family wants to know.
So how much are you payingattention to all your feelings?

(57:59):
If nobody wants to know, nobody's asking.
Nobody cares. So, yes, that is growing.
Her mind is growing,which opens up the space to begin
to have more of her feelings,identify them and use them
to serve her,to make her decisions in life.
And one of the things she's doing here inthis story is just making space

(58:21):
for herself, telling the brother, back up,I see this now.
I'm not drunk.
I'm not on the floor in a stupor.
I didn't drink all the wine.
I now know thisand you can't take it from me.
I know it in my heart.
And does she recognize thatat the end of all this.
She is beginning to, you know,she goes to bed.
This is this is hard work for her. Right?

(58:43):
She's really fighting a battle.
So does she feel that?
I mean, I think she gets the idea.
Does she fully feel that yet?
No, because it still hits her.
But what's very important is to supportthe growth and the growth here.
We don't want to lose that.
Yes, there's all sorts of thingsthat are still at work, but
I want to support herebecause this is going to help her.

(59:07):
The part said, I'm not swallowing.
I won't swallow it any more.
Now I know I don't have to.
Okay, now we got fight.
Okay. So that was the end of that dream.
That was the end of that dream.
That was the end of that session.
Her continues.
We keep talking.
We're meeting.
She dreams about all sorts of things.

(59:28):
And she comes inand she says it was a bit of a tough week.
There were so many things to handle
with people coming into townfor my parents wedding anniversary party
and making sure that I had everythingorganized and covered.
But it all went off without a hitch.
I'm happy to saythere were the usual annoyances,
but I really felt likeI could just roll with it all.

(59:50):
A few people got snippy with me,but I kept my cool in the past.
I think I would have let them have itor broken down crying, but I was okay.
My brother was not okay.
He drank too much and he was generallyjust an idiot, basically his usual self.
He can be funny,but it is always just obnoxious too.

(01:00:10):
He had his girlfriend thereand they seem happy enough.
I guess.
I think she likes his moneyor potential for money
more than she really likes him,but he kind of deserves that.
So I don't feel too bad for him.
He's really picky,you know, picky about looks.
So I think that's the tradeoff.
Like she'll stay skinny and beautifuland he will keep the money coming in.

(01:00:31):
I guess it works for them.
And then she says the party was nice,the food was good.
I think everybody enjoyed themselves.
Luckily, the weather was goodbecause it was out on a patio and was
I was really worriedthat people would freeze.
But it worked and I'm just listening.
She knows I don't have to say anythinganymore because she knows how this goes.
She comes in and she just gets to tell mewhatever's on her mind.

(01:00:54):
And I want to listen to that.
I want to hear where is she?What's happening in our world?
How does she feel about things?
What does she say? What does she not say?
She said,I think my mom enjoyed it the most.
It was really for her.
My dad held court as usual,but people genuinely
seemed happy to be there for herand that was really moving.
Some of her friendsflew in from across the country

(01:01:15):
and I think that made her feel specialand she relaxed.
I felt likeshe was so much less anxious, but
she's still all over the placeand just chattering on about stuff.
But I could tell it touched her.
I don't get to see that with her a lot.
She doesn't let her feelings show much.
I try not to be that way.
I've come out of my shellmuch more that way.

(01:01:36):
I try to let people know where I amemotionally and if I need something,
I guess I feel like I canlet more of myself show, hang out there
and not be worried that I will bejudged for it or be too much.
I had some good conversations with people.
I was actually pleasantly surprisedbecause I sort of expected
it would be the kind of partywhere you just say hello to everyone

(01:01:57):
and keep keep it movingand can't really have good conversations.
But I had some and they got deep.
They were really satisfying.
I felt like that was nurturingand I definitely heard some stuff.
I wasn't expecting and maybe didn't wantto know about people's divorces and such.
But overall it was good.
My dad, he still kills me sometimes.

(01:02:19):
He was so cool, quiet and reserved,but I guess even that bothers me less.
No arguments, no smartasscomments from me, which is good.
That's newand I feel so much better about being able
to just keep my mouth shutin a good way now.
Like I don't have to tell him everythingI don't like.
I'm out of that phasethat makes things so much easier.

(01:02:40):
I don't have to feel angry all the time.
So she went through a phase whereshe got her voice and then she used it.
And it wasn't that they weren'tstill wanting her to be quiet.
It wasn't that she still wasn'thaving those dreams from time to time,
but she felt more free say things.
And she did.

(01:03:01):
And, you know,they weren't horrible things.
I think to her.
They felt like huge, awful things
because by comparison,she was really talking to her because.
She had talked zero. Exactly.
But that even that was sort of a responseto having been silent so long.

(01:03:22):
And and that started to settle.
So she didn't feel the needevery time, like,
there's another thing I didn't tell you.
And then at some pointI ask her what she dreamt about
and the dream as she was with herold boyfriend, Nathan and I rent a car.
And then I think we gosomewhere, use the car.
And the dream is moreabout the end of the day.

(01:03:45):
We have to return the car.
I pull up and I see thatthey're closing down the lot.
They're pulling down all these big gates.
I know I have to pull into the lotand park park it to return it.
I make them stop closing the gateand let me pull in.
And then I put the car in the right spot
and drop the keys offin this little metal box and walk away.

(01:04:05):
Nathan comes with me.
I think I was just relieved that I gotthe car back and made it just in time.
And I ask herwhat comes to mind about the dream?
And she said, Well, the first thing,
Nathan,he was my boyfriend about ten years ago.
He lived up north, so we would commuteand it was really fun at first
and I looked forward to it.
And then it just became drag.

(01:04:27):
It was expensiveand we weren't really able
to be in each other's livesas much as we wanted.
Then he just broke up with me one day.
I was shocked and totally heartbroken.
And the looking back now,
I think that was my ego more than the ideathat I was really in love with him.
I did like him, though,and I miss talking to him.
He sort of just disappearedout of my life.

(01:04:48):
No happy birthday texts or anything,like with other people.
Weirdbecause I don't usually think about him.
And I said, What was he like?
She said he was fun.
He was smart and talkativeand usually had some idea of a plan
he wanted to do,like he would want to go down.
Something he wanted to see.
That part was fun.

(01:05:09):
I don't know that I really got to knowmuch about him, really.
Looking back, it was surface.
So is it like my mom?
Am I traveling around with her again?
I was really hopingI would just be letting her go.
It's so much easier for me to be aroundher, so I was hoping that was a good sign
and not a sign that I was like hertravel buddy or worse, dating her.

(01:05:33):
And I said, I don't think it'sthat you're dating her here.
I think it's that you're returningthe car.
You're returning her personality to her.
The trip's over.
You can return the car now.
Now she still stays with you, butyou get the car back in the right spot.
That's the important part here.
I think it is her.
Because you felt she just dropped youwhen you were a baby and it hurt.

(01:05:57):
Even if you realized lateryou might not have loved who she was,
you needed her as a baby.
So that was a very consequential breakupearly on.
Heartbreaking, in fact.
And I said, I think that's why you couldbe more relaxed and enjoy the party.
You could do it more as yourselfand not as your mother.
And that's where we left that.

(01:06:19):
So it's not over.
Her mom's still there.
They returned the car?
Yeah,they were on a trip together, her life.
But she got the car back.
And returned the keys.And returned the keys.
I need your keys, Mom. To live my life.
I need my own keys,my own understanding, my own gifts.

(01:06:40):
That's what I need to live my life.
And that's what she tells meabout the party.
At the beginning,you went, Well, I'm listening.
What she telling me.
All right.I was able to do things differently.
I don't have to tell everybodyevery little thing.
I got to have deep conversationswith people.
I could now find those peopleI didn't have
to only have conversationswith the family.

(01:07:03):
And she could let her mom be who she was
and separate herselffrom the mom in her life.
It wasn't her. The mom in her.That's right.
That's right.
And she could see my mom's anxious. Okay.
My mom's going to be anxious.
But I don't have to be anxious.
I don't have to be her.
That's huge. It's huge.

(01:07:24):
So this looks nice.
Wrapped up with a bow. It's tidy.
But I wanted to start withsome simple dreams in.
A treatment over a number of yearsthat lets
you just see what's possibleas you hit some milestones.
That doesn't mean that in the middlethere isn't a lot of her going to bed.

(01:07:45):
Look, people aren't going to bed so longthat they're not able to work.
I don't want to freak people out to.
What you might have a particularexhausting week.
You might when you might feel itand you might be sad for a while
and learning some of this is heavy.
What do you mean?
My family doesn't even want me to talk
and I've got to be a zeroand all of these things.

(01:08:06):
There must be some other reason.
There must be,but you work your way through it.
And the reason to go through all of thatis because you get strong.
And you feel that. You own it.
And that gives you the momentumto keep going, to.
Keep goingand to bring into the rest of your life
whatever you decide to do,you get to do it as yourself.

(01:08:26):
You want to make mistakes,but make them as you.
Yeah, and this feels good.
And why wouldn'tyou want more of that, right?
Because it does feel good.
I think here what's really importantis for people to see that
there's an entire lifehappening unconsciously,
and we just don't get to seeall of the pieces without the dreams.

(01:08:49):
And that's the beauty of this.
And feel really focused on
using that dream and his understanding
to helpput a very detailed emotional story
together that the dream would deliverso that people knew

(01:09:09):
what had happened to them, why they feltthe way they felt and how to fix it.
The idea is by going through the dreamspiece by piece and interpreting them,
you are pulling out toxins, trash, soto speak, emotional trash out of the mind,
and you are also helping itexpand and grow.
And what that does ismakes a space over time,

(01:09:33):
not easy for a person to become
who that person is really supposed to be.
And so even thoughthis can take a long time to do,
but it's such a worthy endeavorbecause you're really
just figuring out who you areand it's changing and you're growing.

(01:09:53):
And yes, some periods are hard,but some are filled with great reward.
And it doesn't mean that you ride offinto the sunset and have this magical life
where you're not touchedby any of the problems around us.
We're all here on Earth.
But the way you respond them feel it.
Even if it hurts,you get it in the right spot.

(01:10:14):
You understand what it really is,and then you can respond appropriately.
It doesn't to take you or you don't haveto deny everything to manage it, right?
So you're really just buildinga much stronger, more robust mind
and that letsyou have all of your feelings.
And we need that.
We need yes,we need to be smart, but we need feeling.

(01:10:39):
We need them joined togetherso that you can use
your feelingsto make your best decisions for yourself.
Then go live your life. And who wouldn't?
I mean, if we just all asked ourselves
the question, Is this the best lifeI can live?
Or what is life all about?
Is it about me making itthrough every day, paying the bills,

(01:11:01):
putting food on the table,visiting the people I'm supposed to visit?
Is this what life is about?
There's is there more.
And I think when you say yes,there's more,
the only way you can truly get to itis is this way.
Yeah, because you may be able to dolots of things on the surface.
We all do that.

(01:11:22):
We do all we do.
And I thinkif that worked, we'd be different.
If that really worked,at the end of the day, we'd be different.
People wouldn't be as depressedas they are, they wouldn't be
as dishonest,they wouldn't be fighting each other.
We wouldn't be doing it.
So something's not working.
Not so we have to try something new.

(01:11:42):
And this is something new. It's real.
It's psychoanalysis isn't new,but If you can look it and say,
we all got an imprintand maybe people are going to come along
and discover more that we gotVale would have liked.
Keep this going.
Yeah, keep working on it.
Maybe you'll find more.
Expand, expand.
This isn't to make him God.

(01:12:04):
This isn't to sayhe had the answer to everything.
Let's idealize him.
He was a human being like everybody else,imperfect in many ways
and really good at figuring out
how the dream tells us about our life.
And I think if people can start lookingat this and just knowing, just knowing

(01:12:26):
that your dreams are telling you somethingevery single day is amazing.
Look at the technology.
We don't have to go into phonesand computers and everything.
Look at the technology we. Have.
At our fingertips every single day.
It's just preciousand it's just amazing that we
just naturally go to the placeof ignoring that.

(01:12:46):
I mean, it's such a giftthat we just overlook day by day by day.
And even Bernard did.
I mean, he he lived a long life.
He tried this path and that path.
And at least he knew that he himselfwas uncomfortable
with the way things were working,both with himself, with his patients,
the world, and came upon this right.

(01:13:10):
He was struggling in some ways,not at all.
And in other ways the soul was struggling.
Yeah, it was.
It was unhappy and it pushed.
So he pushed.
So I think his theory asks us all to push,
push,push into where you're scared to go, push
into where it's uncomfortable and see whatyou learn, see what's possible.

(01:13:30):
You could almost think thatwhat's going on inside each of us,
every individual all this unconscious,this living, this other life,
separate from our feelings,is is really representative of humanity.
I mean, if you think aboutwhat humanity is doing
and what we're doing,it's pretty much the same. Yes.

(01:13:52):
I mean, what you see that we strugglewith as humanity,
you know,we just we're going to fight a war.
We're going to kill each other.
I mean, if you were really having feelingsabout that.
If you're using your feelingsto make decisions,
how do you send somebody'schild off to war?
How do you kill somebody?
Child that doesn't come from the heartthat might come from up here.

(01:14:17):
We have to do this.
This is the way we save ourselves.
This is the way we keep everybody safe.
This is how we've done it.
Yeah.
And I don't want to be naive, okay?
There are certain circumstances.
I understand why people thoughtthat was the way,
but maybe we all have to stopand say it's not.
And no more.
Enough, enough.

(01:14:38):
No more.
The heart says no more.
We don't get to do thisto each other anymore.
And when you say that to yourselfand your imprint,
you're changing the way you live a life.
What you said just now applies
to the individualand to the way we treat each other.
Start here. Yeah.

(01:14:58):
Start with yourself.
What can you say no to that?
You never felt you had any power against.
Or even thought you didn't.
The thought didn't enter your mind, Right?
So we just want to open it up enoughto let some thoughts come in.
And what if those are.
I just had an idea.
I had a patient say to me,I just thought about something.

(01:15:20):
Why couldn'tI just do this A different way?
And I knowI've been talking about this and
but you didn'ttell me to do it a different way.
And the patient had to say,I think I expected you to just tell me.
Instead,I came to it out of our work together.
Patients said, nowI understand why you didn't just tell. Me

(01:15:42):
because that would be serving thatpatient's intellect, not their feeling.
Their intellect.
And people are good at listening.
Patients want to please me. They'll obey.
I say.
What did they learn from it?
They just learned that I said, Do this.
Well, how about youfigure out what you want to do?
Then you do it. Help you build your mind.

(01:16:04):
I'll help you get free of the chainsso that the ideas
get to come to youand that's what you need.
So, Jessica continues on this path.
Jessica goes on with her life, And doesJessica
see that her life is way differentthan it was?
Yeah.
Jessica's very aware that she's not thesame person she was when she came in, so.

(01:16:27):
That's lovely.
That's lovely. That's. That's the goal.
That's the goal.
And then my goal is peoplego and go live your life for me.
Maybe they'd share some ofthis information with those around them,
or maybe those around themwill see this beautiful change
and ask questionsabout what effected that change.

(01:16:47):
Well, thank you. Thank you so much.
Thank you for having me.
Thank youfor letting share this work. Yes.
And we want you to share more.
Of course, It's so much workputting all of this together,
but we need you to keep doing it.
Yeah, I'm happy to do it.
And there's, you know, as you can imagine,
there's so many different problemswe all struggle with.
So we'll try to coverdifferent things, right?

(01:17:10):
Because this just goes out into all sortsof little fingers.
Right. Thank you again.Thank you all for joining us.
This was just fabulous.
And we'd love you to share your thoughtsand follow us and come
back again soon. Bye.