The Therapy We Deserve: Dr. Loren Weiner on Healing at the Root

In this powerful episode of And Now Love, Cynthia Marks welcomes back clinical psychologist Dr. Loren Weiner for a conversation that reframes how we understand therapy — not as symptom management, but as the process of uncovering and healing deep emotional imprints. Dr. Weiner discusses how therapy guided by dreams, honesty, and emotional safety can reveal unconscious beliefs formed in childhood that block love, self-worth, and connection. Drawing on her years of training under Dr. Bernard Bail, she explores the therapist’s role in helping individuals reconnect with their authentic selves, process guilt and grief, and challenge inherited psychological burdens. This episode is a moving exploration of how therapy, when done with depth and intention, becomes a liberating journey of emotional truth. Whether you're in therapy, considering it, or supporting someone on that path, this conversation offers a compassionate and radical lens on what it means to truly heal.

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Hello,
I'm Cynthia Marksand I head up the Holistic Psychoanalysis
Foundation established by my latehusband, Doctor Bernard Bail.
Welcome to And Now Love.
Thank you for joining us.
And we have Doctor Loren Weinerwith us, my favorite psychologist.

(00:26):
She's terrific and knows all of this work,
like the back of her hand and comes to usfrom the bottom of her heart.
Always, always. Thank you for being here.
Thank you.
Today we're going to talk about therapyand what it is.
And how do we find the therapythat works for us.

(00:47):
What is this all about? So.
So what is therapy?
Right.
Well,you're going to get therapy with my bias.
Because obviously thethe type of therapy that drew me to it
is something that is a more transformativetype of therapy.
You know, so it means that most people

(01:07):
go to therapybecause something bothers them.
Something isn't working.
And sometimes people also go becausethere's a crisis, there's a trauma.
There is something that happensthat shakes you in your life.
So, you know, we get a variety of reasonspeople come.
We're not comingbecause we feel great about everything.

(01:29):
That would be lovely.
Truthfully? Typically not.
But yes, there are some peoplethat perhaps the upset
I'm going to call itthe upset is not enormous.
But maybe they've had a friendwho just felt therapy helped.
Therapy,
you know, gave them
a new perspective on something, or theylearned something new about themselves.
And then the friends get interestedor our family member,

(01:52):
you know, so that does happen.
And and truly,even if we're in fabulous shape,
there's always something morewe can learn about ourselves.
That is my big pitch.
Really, I think once
you start to get a sensethat there is an unconscious
and begin to see thatthe unconscious holds so much wisdom,

(02:16):
knowledge about yourself, about everyonein the world, it's pretty hard to not see
that you gain so much every timeyou have a dream and you get that dream.
Understood.
Because not all therapy dealswith the unconscious.
That's right.
So that's why I say you'reyou're going to get the bigger piece

(02:36):
has my bias in it,because that's the kind of therapy
that I think fundamentally offersthe most possibility for change and will.
And that's what we're here for.
There's there's biasall over this place. Right.
So it also depends.
But what is each person coming for. Right.
Why are they coming to you.
And how can you help them.
I mean right,that's the first thing you're assessing

(02:58):
when somebody comes to you.
Is this a problem that therapy can help.
So you want to, you know, make surethat that makes sense and make sure
that the person is invested in workingbecause therapy isn't something
that's sort of you sit thereand someone does something to you.
You know what?
You really want is the person saying,you know, I'm here.
Here's why I'm here.

(03:19):
And and I'm, I'm invested in this.
I want to change this.
Now, we did talk about change last timeand or time before.
And I think what becomes clear iseven with change,
there is still what we calla resistance to it.
So people will come to youand they want to change.
And, you know, you're going to have

(03:40):
some areas where they might fightyou a little on something
or where the unconscious says,oh no, you're not to look at that.
Or somebody deniessomething is as bad as it is.
Those are all expected, right?
So, you know, that's all part of it.
But the biggest piece is
that you're sort of looking to say,all right, this person is coming to me.

(04:01):
They have something they want to work on,and they seem invested in working on it.
If you get those pieces andand this feels like an area
where I can, you know, I have expertiseand I can treat this person,
you get that whole formula going,then you can be off to the races.
But do people come thinking

(04:21):
I'm just going to go see Doctor Weinerand she's going to fix me.
Absolutely.
First of all,there are a lot of modalities of therapy.
Right. So you have psychoanalytic.
You have cognitive behavioraland all sorts
of variety of things in between.
Some people are really much
more interested in somebodyperhaps giving a more directive.

(04:45):
Here's your problem.
Here's what you do to fix this problem.
In my mind, that feels too limiting to me
because knowing the unconscious,I know that
if you're having a difficulty, chances areyou're not having it in one area.
Your complaint may be about one area.
I keep fighting with my sister.

(05:06):
I can't hold the job.
But if we start really exploringthose areas
because they're all part of you,
your problem is not going to be limitedto just one area, right?
So we're going to see thingsemerge thematically.
So my feeling is if we get too focused ontell me what to do

(05:26):
in this specific instance,tell me what to do when I feel this way.
You lose the enormous richnessof a whole person, right?
And so my goal is really to understand
the whole person again,not just the dream though.
That is a huge piece, and I want that,but I want to hear the whole life.

(05:47):
I want to hear how everything fitstogether.
This idea of coming infor a specific thing.
I, for example, like you were saying,you know, I don't understand why
I keep arguing with my sister.
We've been doing this now for six months.
We never did that before.
I mean, in a way, to have that struggle
might even be a giftbecause it's given you an opportunity

(06:09):
to try and undo somethingthat is difficult or sad or uncomfortable.
And it could then shed light
on a whole piece of yourself
that you can start to address andand change.
I think so.
I mean, any, any problem reallyhas the potential to be a gift, right?

(06:30):
It's going to it's going to put aspotlight on something that isn't working.
Something's not going right or somethingyou need to understand that you don't.
So, you know, I think insurance companieskind of have set up a system
and created an environmentwhere people think change happens
in a limited number of sessions.
I think that that is just sort offoundationally not true.

(06:53):
To be fair, it depends.
What kind of change are we talking about?
What are you really looking for?
And what often becomes clear
is that if you're really goingto have a shot at changing something,
it just requiresa bigger change than people imagined.
You have to.
You look and you start to see, oh, wait,
there are places where you don't knowyourself.
You don't really understand yourself.

(07:14):
You don't understand your motivations.
You don't understand why you feela certain way about a certain person,
or why you can't see somethingor somebody else clearly.
You know that you get tangled upin trouble too often with people
and it keeps happening, or somethingnew pops up.
But what it doesis it puts a spotlight on.

(07:36):
And then you say, oh, wait a minute,you know what?
This relationship may never have beenworking the way you wished.
Right.
It's sort of come to a head in some way,but then we can start to explore it
and see, oh,but you've had all kinds of expectations
that may or may not be realistic, factual.
You may be bringing too muchof your childhood experience

(07:56):
to something, to a work environmentwhere you think your boss is always out
to get you to a friendship,where you always feel excluded,
or you feel like I'mthe last person they invite to the party.
I'm, you know, and we can trace that back,you know, as a simple example, right?
Oh, but I always feltI was the last person picked for the team.

(08:17):
And I always felt, you know,and I was the quietest of my siblings.
Right.
And, you know, as you work backwardsand I know a lot of people say, oh, well,
you know,you're just going to drag this out,
go back to the pastand you open up all of these things.
I don't I'm not really looking for that.
If that doesn't feel okay to you
as you're going,then this isn't the therapy for you.
You're right.
And that type of transformational

(08:40):
I think processwhere you really get to explore
your deepest self,it has to be something you want.
But and I think a lot of peoplecome to that though, that shift saying,
you know,Bernard used to say this all the time that
that patients would say,don't you dare talk about my family.
My family's great.

(09:00):
My upbringing was perfect.
And if they have
a little loosening of the boundaries,they'll see
through the course of their dreamsthat maybe
it wasn't really that way.
And once you start to open that doora little bit, you in a way,

(09:21):
through this type of therapy, I think
can sort of give yourself a hug and say
you're okay and your
family isn't bad, but why not?
Why not explore this huge piece of you
and see what part is yoursand what part isn't yours,

(09:41):
and how this environment,without putting good or bad
titles on it, helpedyou become who you are.
Yes, people have what I would say
is a very protective stancearound the family.
To most people it varies.
But yeah, I would say that's morethe norm than not is, you know,

(10:01):
I mean,unless somebody is really coming in
and saying, look,my family was very abusive
or my family was just absent or,you know, you get that also.
But a lot of times I think peoplesort of generally would say, you know,
my family was okay or my family, you know,some people really oh, my family,
it was great.
Okay, maybe.
And just when somebody says, oh,my family was awful, maybe.

(10:22):
Right.
So my job is to sort of just listen, okay,well let me hear more about it.
And, and you want to follow the storyand you want to see and what yes,
often becomes clear is perhapspeople have to protect the family.
They don't want to say anything bad.
They're not always so convinced that eveneven though they didn't
feel great growing up,they may not know why.

(10:45):
They may not know whereto put the problem.
They may not know that whatthey experienced was out of the ordinary.
There's a lot of thatthat people you know, for whatever reason,
didn'tmake the comparison to their friend groups
and their parents, you know,or the friend groups were similar enough
and the parenting was similar enough

(11:07):
that we went,oh, this is just as it is, right?
Doesn't dad always yell at the kids?
And doesn't everybody get a spanking?
And all of these things?
But then you may have a stancewhere that has to be very protected.
The parents are not to be discussed
in any depth now, okay?

(11:29):
You have to meet people where they arewhen they come to you.
So you just want to listen
and you just see andand if somebody will share a dream, fine.
And and hopefully over time,what you're building is an alliance.
You want the person to feel comfortableenough talking to you.
Because really therapy is a conversation.

(11:50):
It is just a long conversation
and not a friend conversation.
Right?
I want to make that distinctionbecause there are a lot of people do come
and they either expect, you know,everything and have all the answers and,
you know, maybe even aren't telling them,but you have them in you, right?

(12:10):
Or they expectthis is a friendship, right?
And so they want to hear everythingabout your life.
And, you know, if you're not telling them,then why not?
Do you not like them?So how do you deal with that?
Well, you you have to be very patient
and listen and see if you can understand
why the person is having those feelings.

(12:32):
That's it.
You know,you're you're constantly listening
and people willwhat we call project onto you,
but they will put on to youall sorts of expectations.
They expect you to be like other peoplethey've known, maybe like the mother,
maybe like the father,
maybe like the sibling or the best friendor the mean teacher.
They had anything you can imagine.

(12:53):
People bring in because they themselves
are filled with it and operating that way.
And that's what we do in the world anyway.
That's what we're all doing.
We're trying to gleanfrom the people around us
that things that make us feeluncomfortably comfortable.
That's right.
We do this with everybody.

(13:14):
It's called transference.
And it basically meansI may to more or a less extent,
see you through the lensof my previous experiences.
Okay.
So if I had really punitive parents,
chances are I'm in the worldwaiting for somebody
to treat me in a negative way,criticize me, be mean to me.

(13:38):
The idea that I'm just acceptedand it's easy
and loving probably isn't something I cometo naturally.
Alien.
You're just waiting for somebody to tellyou you've done something wrong, right?
That's right.
You know? And then.
And then what is your defenseagainst that? Right.
So then you may protect yourself
in various ways, or you mayand you may also seek that out.

(14:00):
You might unknowingly sign up,get yourself hired
by the meanest boss in the world,and then it just confirms it, right?
Or you may end up with a nice boss,but you don't experience it that way.
Because no matterwhat is said in some way, you go,
oh well, they said something nice,but I know I can't trust it.
They must be waiting to just imagine,you know, so many variations, right?

(14:22):
Because everybodyhad a slightly different life.
We all have big things in common,you know.
There aren't that many different ways,but but the little, you know,
nuances were different enoughfor everybody that they're
going to experience things in that way.
So that is all part of it.
And to me, it doesn't matterwhat modality of therapy you're using.

(14:45):
This is how people work.
So even if you do not believein the unconscious, it doesn't matter.
It exists.
You know, and I think for those of usthat work this way and work in this,
you just it's it's so clearwhether anybody else sees it or knows
it's going on or they deal with itin the treatment, therapy or not,
it doesn't mean it isn't there.
It's in all of our relationships.

(15:07):
So I think given that,why would you not want a therapy
that gets to meet you on that level,given it's happening?
If that's happening and I never go backand ask you about your past
or if I do, it's very surface.
I don't get into the detail of it.
I'm going to misswhy you might respond to me

(15:27):
a certain way, but that's critical, right?
I need to know if you're expecting that.
I ask you questionsthat are designed to trip you up or,
you know, I just ask something openended and don't give you any help, right.
Or direction.
If you had, you know, an absent mother,

(15:48):
you may feel that to be very unfairand and two absent.
You may never say that to me.
I mean, you know, again.
But if I know the history more,
then I can better intuit,
you know,what might be happening in a session.
And then I can look at the dream,and then I have all of this
information to see, like when you describea character in your dream,

(16:11):
if we stick with the example of an absentmother who was perhaps really depressed,
stayed in her room, did the minimum,
but but had a really hard timeemotionally connecting to the children.
Chances are, at some point in therapy
you are going to feel I am that way.
You couldn't. Not right?

(16:32):
If you're not, then we're not having thisgo deep enough, right?
You know, because that is in thereand it is going to have to get reenacted.
It's going to have to get understood.
It has to get interpretedso that what happens is
you learn about your internal world
and you can make much bigger changesif you start to see how you really work

(16:55):
according to your consciousand unconscious experiences.
So to get to that placewhere your patient is now
talking to youas if you're the absentee mom,
they've all already shared with you
a dream that showed you that tendency,

(17:16):
and then it presents itselfin the real world,
or which comes first or it doesn'tmatter, could be any which way.
It could be any which way.
Because if you, whatever your experiencewas right, you have bathed in it.
Do you feel that way on the first session?
Do you feel that way alreadywhen you've called on the phone?
Is that your worry?

(17:36):
If I don't return a first call quicklyenough, I mean, I I'll give this example
because I think it starts immediately,right?
If I don't return a call in what oneimagines, you know,
should I call back in five minutes,ten minutes?
Two hours?
What if it isn't fast enough?
You may not be comfortable saying,

(17:57):
oh, do I know she'll respond, right?
Or you may pick the therapistthat waits 24 hours
to call you back because you go, okay,that's what that I get.
Of course,it takes that long to get back to me.
That's what I expect.
So I just give these examplesbecause people have to know this is active
always with all of us,but it's certainly active in a therapy.

(18:21):
So if you are starting a therapyand somebody isn't at least
asking questionsabout what your life was like
wanting to go deeper, you're going to endup hitting some surface things.
And I can tell you, of course,one could tell you
do this in your life, solvethis problem this way.
In my mind, that isn't therapy,that's counseling.

(18:43):
Perhaps that is guidance
that might be talking to a wise friend,but that isn't therapy.
So in my mind, if you are looking for amore transformational therapy,
then you want somebody who's going
to really let you begin to see who you are

(19:05):
in the deepest parts over time, you know?
And that takes trust.
A lot of trust.
It takes your feeling that somebodyhas your best interest in mind,
that somebody is willing to walk with youthrough a lot of difficult feelings
that might come up.
You have to tolerate patientsloving you, hating you at times, thinking

(19:29):
you're being mean and punitive, thinkingyou're amazing and can do no wrong.
Which people would say, oh,but that must feel good.
Well, but it isn't reality either.
So what you are doingthen is trying to get at all of the ways
in which trash has gotten into everything,right?
So if you've had abandoning parentsor punitive parents

(19:53):
or you've had, you know, very loving,but very ineffective parents,
you know, whojust sort of laid back like, oh,
we love you, but we trust that, like,you know, how to raise yourself, right?
You know, very different looking.
But chances are then there's going to bea push in the therapy that I just let
the patient treat him or herself,because that's how it went, right?

(20:16):
So or they may be working so hard
because they had to workthat hard to be the adult, right?
So they can't sit back and relax and trustthat I'm conducting a therapy.
All of this seems like it would takeso much work or so much effort
to get beyond that kind of snap responsethat we all have.

(20:37):
Like you just said, I'm,you know, the kid, the grown up
who had parents who just said, love you,you know, go figure it out.
And that's what you knew.
And then you come to someone like youand you just automatically do that.
The processof figuring out how to undo that and say,
wait a minute, I'm a person who canactually ask questions and get some help.

(21:01):
I'm a person who would be better off
if I had a team of people that I love
and love me and, and and show up for me.
That's a giant thing to come to terms withif you never had it.
But that's right, and that's right.
That is learningsomething very big about yourself.

(21:22):
What you want is to help a person
begin to discover these thingsas you work through
whatever is on the person'smind in each session.
If you have a dream,
then we also get that added piecethat is going to say, all right, whatever

(21:42):
you want to tell me in that dream that day
so that your mind can grow, right?
So your mind is looking to grow.
It's not going to waste time.
It's going to bring a dream.
And then we're going to get to examine it.
You know, we get to let you just see.
All right.
Well, what comes to mind about this dreamor however you want to?

(22:05):
Somebody wants to ask the question,but I want to give you enough space
so that you can begin to just talk.
Do what we call free associate, just talk
and see what comes to mindabout the dream.
Beforeknowing about the importance of dreams.
I think a lot of us, many of us are justcurious about that, the dream as a tool.

(22:28):
But we think we don't dream all the time.
Some of us think we we never dream,or our dreams are just boring
and minuscule and meaninglessand come to find out,
the dreams that you bring forth,all of them are pretty fabulous in terms
of offering up information about youand what's going on in your unconscious.

(22:50):
And every dream has the potential
to gift you a whole new bit of youthat you haven't been paying attention to.
I mean, you could be dreaming about.
I just chose to wear red socksand they were in the second drawer
instead of the top drawer,and that could be as valuable as the dream
where those giant zebrasare chasing you down

(23:12):
after you fell off a cliffand got run over by a car. Yes.
I mean, what you're talking aboutis sort of just the enormous depth
of the unconscious and the waysin which it brings you messages.
Right.
So and let me say this, it's not just thatwe hear the dream, okay?
My socks were not in the drawerI normally expect.

(23:33):
And then we can get in to, you know,and I'll see what comes to your mind
about the dream.
I don't want to just start asking you withthis piece, in this piece in this way,
what I want is to give your mind spaceto just see what comes up.
And does it take a whilefor people to get in that mode?
I think, for example,that dream that I just supposedly made up,
I bring it to you and you start saying,tell me about the color

(23:57):
red or whatever it might be. And I'm like,
this is just a goofy dream.
It's not,why are you wasting my time with this?
That must happen.
I want to tell you about the big dreamI had three days ago.
And you want to focus on this? How?
How do people.
I guess just through experience,people begin to see that
all of this stuffis just really full of info.

(24:23):
It's filled.
So, but a few things let me go back.
I mean, one, if somebody really hasa dream that they're interested in,
you know, chances are I'mif you want to tell me about that
big dream, tell me about that big dreamI want to hear right now,
does that mean there may be somethingthat is harder to talk about?
That's actually in the dream emotionally,with the red sock dream, perhaps.

(24:47):
But you know,those feelings aren't going to go away.
They'll come up in another dream.
So some of what you're doing, again,
is meeting the person where the person is.
Now, if you just think alldreams are silly and they have no meaning,
chances are you're going to comesee me like once or twice
and then say, listen, lady, thanks.

(25:09):
You know not my thing.
Absolutely.
Go, go find what your thing is.
Or you may come and say, I don't know
why you're so interested in this,but I'll tell you.
And over the course
hopefully of interpreting, saying,all right, here's what I'm hearing.
You tell me.
I'm hearing, you know, this and this,

(25:31):
and then you want to seewhat the person responds.
Sometimes people will say,oh my gosh, I just got chills.
That makes sense to me.
Or I, I have to think about thisbecause I know it doesn't make sense or,
you know, andand that maybe I have to either refine it
or they're not yet in a placewhere those feelings

(25:53):
that are contained in the dreamand in the unconscious feel acceptable.
Yet I think most people who stick with itcome to see that
even if they didn't start out
having any idea about it,which is most people, that actually
they begin to love their dreamsand they begin to sort of

(26:13):
speak the language of their own dreams,which is what you want.
And people get into it,you know, they go, okay, I had this dream.
I think this is really important.
And here's what happened
and here's what I'm wondering,and I wonder about this piece.
And, you know, and always,you know, you don't
want it to becomea sort of intellectual endeavor, right?
Where they've just learned how to do this

(26:35):
so well that they get to avoid the processby being too good at the process.
But but what you're hopingis that people begin to really get to know
their own unconscious and then whatthey start to see is, oh, wait a minute.
I keep thinking, because I haven'ttalked to my father in 20 years,
because he was so abusivethat I have no connection to him.

(26:56):
But isn't this interesting?
He's turning up again in my dream,or this neighbor.
But the neighbor has the same nameas my dad keeps turning up in the dream
and the person begins to say, oh my gosh,
so clearly this is so on my mind.
And I thought I divorced myselffrom this years ago.
I thought it had no impactor I had, you know, put that away.

(27:19):
And so what the person is reallygetting is to see, oh, well
that's not so.
Yeah, right.
But so exciting and fascinating to thinkthat you've lived the law of this thing.
Whatever this thing is, forever.
Come to find out, you didn't have to do itthat way to your benefit.
You don't have to do itthat way, right? Right.

(27:40):
Or that you actually now get to go,oh, well,
I am interested in, in talkingabout my dad because, you know, I just,
I thought I sort of had exhaustedeverything.
I don't have that much information.He left early. He was abusive.
You know, all these things, but.
Oh, but that person, that patient
may be having a new babyand all of a sudden parenting issues.

(28:01):
And how did your parents do it right,you know, are huge.
And what you want to be able to dois explore and clean out whatever
imprint or identification meaning,
way of being like that parentyou are carrying around inside of you
because you don't want that,even though you thought you tucked it

(28:23):
away in a drawer.
You don't want that intrudingon the new relationship with your baby,
but it well, that's how we work, you know?
And that has nothing to dowith your conscious intent
or being a good person or a good parentor not.
It's that unconsciously, we can't help
but repeat what we experienced.

(28:43):
To that we've talked beforeabout how we take some of these things and
kind of lock them away, like in a closet,let's say, just so that we can exist.
We feel the closets of our little house,and we lock all those doors
so that we can remain comfortablein our little house.
But then things happen in our livesthat say, you locked

(29:05):
this bit of yourself away in the closet,but it's still in your house, right?
So you eventually.
You want to open all the doors.Yeah, right.
You know,and the way you're describing it, I will
say, is often a kind of dreampeople will have
where maybe what they discover is,oh, you know, I was walking down the hall

(29:27):
and I saw a doorI never saw before in my house.
Right.
Or they will say I was walking at nightthrough the house and,
something popped out at,you know, terrified me.
Right.
It came maybe an intruder.
And, you know,something jumped out of a closet at me.
And that is really sort of akin to that,that there are all sorts of things

(29:48):
we had to lock away for our own coping.
And wouldn't a conscious go to be, well,I'm better off with the door locked.
I don't once I addressed that thing, Iif I open the door and I let this
thing out, that changed the way I am
or is scary or whateverit is, why I ever locked it away.

(30:10):
It like makes it all touch me again.
And that's right.
And I become that and I don't.
But you already are that.
Yes. So that'ssort of the fallacy of denial, right?
So even when we deny an imprintand people have heard me
talk about this now a few times,which is when we in utero, really,

(30:32):
but certainly within the firstfew months of life, are given
this ball of toxic materialthat comes from our mothers.
And, and laterwe get one from our father, too,
but that comes from our mothersthat are all of her unprocessed, negative
feelings about herself, all of her lowself-esteem issues, let's say, and beyond.

(30:55):
Right.
All of the ways in which she was stoppedin her life and abused and not given
whatever respect she was supposed to haveand didn't get the life she wanted.
All of those problems get put in a balland they're given to us, all of us.
It doesn't matterwhether you're a billionaire or a pauper.
You got one. A man or.
A woman, a man or a woman, anybody.
So this is what human beings arebusy doing.

(31:16):
We get this, okay?
And then we do that.
We deny it, we lock it away and say,this was so painful.
I'm not going to touch it.
Now, the problem withthat is that we can't really lock it away
so that it doesn't impact us.
We can deny that we know it exists,but that doesn't mean it isn't sort of
sending out messages all the timethat control how we get to live our life.

(31:38):
So if you come to me,I am listening for that, right?
And hopefully at some pointyou dream about it and it becomes clear
and we sort of,you know, we may get a top layer one
and then a little laterwe get a lower, you know, right.
And we work our way through them
to see what are all of the prohibitionsyou got in your life

(32:00):
that keep you from having the lifeyou feel you want consciously?
I want I want to be happy.
I want, you know, a nice family.
I want to make $1 million, whatever it is.
Right.
We want to figure out,okay, well, why why isn't that happening?
And it's all unbeknownst consciously.
Most of it is generally.I mean, we. That's right.

(32:21):
You said most of ussay dreams means my family.
Great. You know. Right.
What are you talking about?
That's right.
So we're looking, you know,and people have a lot of defenses.
Meaning feelings are painful.They are hard.
Not just an imprint,which is very hard, but any,

(32:41):
you know, any of our negativeemotions are hard.
All of the sadness.People don't want to touch it again.
But if it's limiting you,you better go back and touch it.
You know, people always come in and they,you know, they just tell me.
I just want tools.
Give me a tool.
Teach me how to deal with this anxiety.
Give me the tool.
Well, the best tool I can give youis to help you know yourself.

(33:03):
Because what we want to see is.Why are you anxious?
Yeah, I'm sure a lot of people can giveyou some technique to help in the moment.
Press the anxiety down.
But that doesn't do anything
to understand it, change it,or keep it from coming back.
So let's first figure out what in the heckit is.
Is it you being you're incredibly anxious,mother or aunt?

(33:25):
Is it you,so desperately keeping all of the
the upset feelings in every closet,under every bed in the house?
Don't come out and get me. Right.
But you're anxious because anythingcould get out at any moment, right?
So for me and for the peoplethat come to see me, what they want is
not just do some technique that gets ridof the feeling in the moment.

(33:49):
Mine is you want a tool,okay, let's get you a tool.
It's called.
Let me help you really know yourinternal world and why you're anxious.
That's the best toolI think there is. Now.
I can't give that to you in one session.
And I think social media insurancecompanies
want things to be these quick fixes.

(34:11):
But first of all,nobody ever had, you know,
emotional pain develop in one day.
That's not how it comesand that's not how it goes away.
And a lot of timesthe the sense of well-being
that comes from sort of knowing your storyemotionally here is

(34:32):
here is what happened to meemotionally in my life,
even if every simple I'm
mean call it symptom, even if that doesn'tmean, oh, you know, now I wake up
and I'm always rolling in a, you know,flower field and everything is amazing.
That in my mindis not the goal of therapy,
but it's to helpyou know yourself, you know,

(34:52):
and you may still have some tough days,but you know why.
And what that usually givespeople is a sense of well-being.
So it isn't to say we're not human in hereand going to have challenges.
I like people to know thatthat that isn't really the goal.
Now, that being said, when you comein, I may ask you,
you know, what are you imagining orwhat would you like to get out of therapy?

(35:15):
You may just tell me that, I would betthat oftentimes what they imagine
and what they end up withare not quite the same thing.
Or some version of it. Right?
You know, most of the time it's,oh, you will
you didn't realizewhat you were asking for
was then connected to thisenormous iceberg under water.
And we have to go through the territory ofof getting all of that.

(35:37):
Oh, that'ssuch a good way of describing it.
Like we were talking about earlier.
You're the person who now all of a suddenhas all these arguments with your sister,
and here it is.
It's present, but it's up hereand then all this other stuff
that is connected to that. Right.
That perhaps is the stuffthat actually brought you in.
And it's this little gift that you can seethat is going to let you explore, right.

(36:01):
And think about the insurance companiesin the popularity of therapy
and social media,and how much is being talked about now
is terrific in that I feel,
and maybe this is just in my little world,that there's less stigma
now around therapy
than say, there have been at other times.

(36:22):
Is that just my own little world? No,I think that's true.
And that is a good observation. Yes.
On the one hand, there's a lot more of it.
And what I hope is that
there's all kinds of helpful therapy.
But what I hope is that for people who are
kind of trying to make a little investmentin taking care of themselves,

(36:45):
and they try a particular therapythat they're very cognizant of,
whether or not they feel likethey're making headway,
and if they're not feeling
like they're making headway, okay,let me let me explore a little deeper.
I still I'm not quite feelinglike I'm getting anywhere or or
I love that this person told me,

(37:06):
you know, help mefigure out how to take deep breaths
and get myself through the anxietyon the surface of a given moment.
And that was great.
But why am I so anxious?
I mean, I hope that these kinds of things,these tools,
might help peoplefind a way to go further. Yes.

(37:27):
You know, so you've got that piece.Very good.
The other pieceI think we have coming up, though, is
there are now a lot of expertsall over the internet.
When I see a lot of stuff
come up that I think, oh my gosh,
I'm so afraid that a lot of peopleare hearing this and think,

(37:48):
this is what therapists do,or this is what is normal for therapy.
So, you know, again, buyer beware.
If you can get a referral throughsomebody who had a good experience
with someone or, you know,because there are a lot of these,
the other big piecethat's coming up is I people just saying,
look, I'm going to talk to a computer.

(38:10):
Help me figure outhow not to feel. Anxious. Yes.
And you know, for me,one of the biggest pieces that I come
across and and where people tend to tendto have problems in their families.
And I'm going back to families
because this is where we all startin one way or another.
Whether you have a family,don't have a family, right?
But even that is still your start.

(38:31):
Going back to that where we run intotrouble is where we are not human enough.
And I think it's very interesting.
So where people were not ableto love enough, where they weren't
empathic,where they weren't compassionate,
couldn't relate to other peoplein the family system

(38:53):
in a meaningful, deep waywhere people felt
seen, heard, not just ordered around
or expected to behavebecause nobody wants to deal with you.
And don't be a problem or, you know,whatever it is or you're infantilized
don't you know, given everything,
but the underlying message is,whatever you do, don't leave me.

(39:13):
You know, writeall of these various things.
The biggest problem is peoplenot being able to really
and truly connect to their own feelings,to know their own feelings and use them to
then conduct their life in the best waypossible.
So people are very split offfrom their actual feelings.

(39:35):
Again, that doesn't mean people aren'toverflowing with feeling you may.
I'm screaming and yelling and cryingand I look like I'm so filled with it,
but I don't really understand my ownemotional story.
Why I'm that way.
And what I can't do
is use any of those feelingsto make my life go the way I want it to.
All of that is a really big piece

(39:58):
of what you get to explore in therapy.
So to go to an entity like I,
no matter how great it is,
it's fundamentally not
a human being that can feel.
And so if you've alreadyhad so much of that,
you really don't wantmore of that part of the problems.

(40:19):
Now, of course, I assume
this will not stay this way forever,but we don't need more algorithms.
Just feeding you.
You know, you're in an echochamber, right?
Yes, yes you're right. Yes.
You're this, you know. Validating.
Valid, you know. Right.
Even as you said,you see more mental health stuff.
Well some people may maybeother people may not on on their portion
of the internet because they never clickon those accounts.

(40:42):
And so the algorithm doesn't send youthat.
So, you know,there are all kinds of interesting
pitfalls coming up in terms of therapyand who you pick and how you get there.
But in my mind,if you're not getting a deeper sense
of your emotional story,the idea that the unconscious holds

(41:02):
the truth of your lifeand that you have access to that,
we are usually looking to see
where did you not get the loveyou really needed?
I mean, if I'm going to boil it downright, and now love,
let's just get to it that that anywherethere's an imprint, anywhere
there was not loving behavior

(41:25):
in a family or by caregivers.
We have a problemwhere no love is pathology sits.
And that's a really important piece.
So we have to come to love.
And I think if therapies aren't going deepand getting to that,
those problem don't get a chanceto really be addressed and understood.

(41:48):
And then, you know,you may know a lot about your story,
but you may not have gotten enoughheart change
to feel like a different person
or to handle your life better.
And my big
dilemma with that is that if
we're not addressing that,we are then repeating

(42:10):
all the ineffective,
damaging wayswe were treated out there in the world.
We end up in situationslike we're in now where we go, oh, okay,
and we are on the brink potentially of,you know, more war right now.
In my mind, the last thing human beingsshould be doing is having a war.

(42:30):
They don't stop more wars.
So that doesn't work.
You know,we have yet to have the last war.
And that turmoil is in each of usuntil we learn how to
start. Yeah.
You have to love.
You cannot fight wars.
It it puts trauma into the entire world.

(42:52):
You you are you know it sounds all nice.
We are now the masters overanother country.
They can feel like the slavesand the lowly people.
We are victoriously.
One that is, you know, not true, right?
That is another figment of everybody'simagination, fundamentally.
And so, yes, it may look like we wantit may look like we stopped something.

(43:14):
What we probably did was put huge trauma
into all of the women and childrenand men.
Right?
Everybody, even the victors,
are going to carry thatbecause we're all connected unconsciously.
So we can't kill off groups of usand expect
that the rest of us are actually okay.

(43:34):
Or better off. Or better off.
So we have to start figuring outhow to now get a new paradigm.
You better start to figure out inside,where was I not loved?
What's happening?
How do I get my full complementof feelings and and really see?
Am I able to actually lovenot just say it, not just talk about it,

(43:57):
but actually do it?
Be a loving human being out in the world.
Not a martyr, but a loving human being.
And if you are a loving humanbeing in your mind,
the option is not,I better bomb those people.
I better keep that group of peoplefrom having access to medical care.
And those people should not have food,you know,
heaven forbidwe give some food to a hungry child.

(44:20):
Oh no, we're not doing that.
Well, that's not loving.
So that tells me, right,that human beings as, as a group
are have to make a U-turnbecause we have to get more love. Yes.
And we're at the moment just going furtherand further down that path.
Yeah.
I mean, you know, I think luckily it'sit's not that everybody is bom bom bom,

(44:41):
but people have to step backand you have to take a bigger
view and say, okay, whatwhere do we all really want to go?
And I think a lot of peoplejust have never experienced love
and they don't even understand.
You say it and it's like, yeah, that'snice lady, you know what I mean?
And and it sounds hippie dippyand oh, you know, whatever.

(45:02):
But that'swhere this therapy piece is so important,
because if people can start to seethat they have called
you know, oh, I was loved fun.
I got beaten every Wednesday nightafter my dad went to the bar, but
oh yeah, I was loved.
And he only did that because he loved me.
There's a lot of that, right?
They did X, Y, and Z because they love me.
But when we explore itand you really get to know it.

(45:24):
All right, well, you know what?
It doesn't sound loving.
Yeah, it wasn't loving.
But that's also a really hard thingto kind of give away is probably not the
correct way of putting it. But
what you have
thought was your worldall this time, what you excused
and what you decided to call lovewhen you realize
what you were doing or whatyou were up against and why you did it,

(45:49):
it's scary to now open those doors.
Yes, and even though it's likely
a fabulous transformation,or if that's the only thing.
That will save you. Itand but yet we're like, I don't know.
I don't know that.I don't know what that is.
We are terrified as a group.
Human beings are terrified.

(46:10):
We're just as terrified to do that.
You know, we are scaredto open all these doors, but we have to.
And that's a great thing about the dreams,because it kind of shows you bit by bit.
Okay.
I see, you know,you sort of made a little progress here.
You, you maybe recognize this thing about
your dad that was happeningwhen you were growing up.

(46:31):
You open that window a little bit
and then maybe you slam it shutin the next dream, or seven dreams later
and you have these dreams that are sortof protecting that bit of your father.
And there's this back and forthand back and forth that I think becomes
so relevantonce you start working with your dreams.

(46:52):
That is almost unachievable if you aren't.
It is amazing in thatit gives you a window in.
Right.
And, you know, might you come up with someof these things in 100 years of talking?
Maybe.
But it gets youthere much more quickly, right?
And you get to build that muscle.
So, you know,

(47:13):
obviously some of the art of listening todreams is also knowing
where is your patient.
And you may see certain thingsin the dream.
And often I will see. And I say, okay,you know what?
I am interpreting this piece.
Let me have the person start hereand I know we're going to get to this.
But they had a dream that was likethey went to the buffet and took every
single thing and put it on the tray,and I go, oh, you know what?

(47:36):
I think you'll do betterif you eat a little bit today
and maybe a little bit tomorrowand a little bit the next day.
So, you know, there is some of that.
You do do it.
But fundamental you're trying your bestto give them
the truth that the personis bringing to you in each dream.
Because the dream doesn't wastethe unconscious, doesn't waste time.

(47:57):
Each dream has a meaning,and it brings you a truth
about your lifethat you need to grow and go forward.
And you just where elsedo you get something that amazing?
Now, that doesn't mean
you're not going to try to shake meand get me off the trail.
In the dream, it doesn't mean
you might not give me a dreamthat is a complete denial.

(48:19):
And then you go,I don't know what the problem is.
It sure looks like at this family reunionin my dream.
Everybody's having a great time, right?
Until we look.
You forgot to tell me that underthat picnic table, a snake was crawling.
And then there's a little tell and.
Okay. Right.
So the picture is.
Oh, all is notmaybe as beautiful as it seems.

(48:40):
And then you get to open that upand then what you're talking about
is you get to reassess everythingand you get to question it all again.
Is everything as I imagined it was.
And there's a part of us always.
Or do we grow out of itthat is trying to, in
a way, sabotage that well, being like,don't, don't go there.

(49:04):
So showing you, for example,that buffet table.
See everything's good now, DoctorWeiner and then, oh wait,
there was a snake under the table.
So, so is that your unconscious sayingkeep those doors closed?
Well, it may be,it may be saying whatever you do, don't,
don't go looking under any picnic tablesbecause there are snakes.
It's too dangerous.
Or it may be saying, look at thisbeautiful scene and out slithers

(49:28):
something.
That is what we would all normallythink of as scary, right?
Or and it's saying,oh, you know, you imagined
or you have been carrying around an ideathat the family was great.
You're saying noticeit was filled with snakes.
People in my family acted like snakes.
I give this as a possiblesure right piece of information emerging,

(49:50):
but I wouldn't knowuntil I talk to you about it. Right?
It depends on the individual.That's right.
I can't look at a dream, in a in a vacuum.
Right. It comes from the person.
You make the. Dream.
There's no book with instructions.
No, I mean, there are certain
there are certain symbols that we seeseem to hang together.
I can in my mind,if I hear it, I can hypothesize

(50:12):
it might mean this,but then I have to prove it.
I have to listen to the restof what you're saying.
As you know, get your thoughtsabout everything and see.
Do I think what I'm hearing hangs togetherwith the symbols you're giving to me?
And then I have to tell you
the interpretation,and then you get to feel it, hopefully
hear it, at least think about itand hopefully feel it and see right.

(50:35):
Do I get a hit on that? Do it?
Does that touch an emotional partsomewhere?
And that's such a key.
Such a key when you say that,because I don't think
it's anythingthat one can really imagine happening,
if you haven't begun to sort oflook at your dreams
and have invested some timein the process, it's

(50:56):
I feel like all of usgo in with the idea of the dream
being a opening into our unconsciouswith like, oh, I don't really get that.
But those of us who are,
you know, sort of interested or curiousand take that step,
you talk about your dreams,you go back and forth and it's like,
no, I don't I don't get it or itand it could go on for a while

(51:18):
and your dreams changeand then all of a sudden things
click or you, like you said earlier,you get chills
or you feel this kind of resignationand it's that it
then makes you know,at least this is what I've experienced,
that there is something greaterthan my conscious being.

(51:41):
There is an unconscious, thereis this world that I need to explore.
If you're lucky, you do get an experiencelike that where it hits you
and you feel it and you kind of go,oh, okay, there is more to this.
Sometimes that takes a whilebecause people aren't supposed to feel,
but what you're watching the whole time,even if the person isn't necessarily
getting that hit, though,that is very helpful.

(52:03):
We want that isthen you have to watch the dreams and see
do they emotionally open?
Does what we calldoes the treatment deepen?
And I am looking for thatboth in the conscious
relationship, in the transferenceand also in the dreams.
What are the dreams showing me?
Are you fighting me off in the dreams?

(52:24):
Are you not wanting to open,you know, doors?
Are you blowing things upor are you starting to open something?
Did you turn a light on in a in a room?
Did you find an abandoned houseand suddenly climbed through the window
and realized that there wassomething in there and you're interested?
You know, that might be the kind of dreamthat gives a hint

(52:46):
that something's happening.
Most of the time, people understand thatif it really isn't feeling good to them,
they're not staying right.
So if people are coming back to me,even if they can't quite put their finger
on, well,what is it exactly with the dreams?
But it's something, right?
You know, and
and so I'm going to keep coming backbecause I'm getting something out of this.

(53:08):
And it's great or interesting about humansthat there are likely moments
with all of your patientswhere they're angry with you,
or they feel like you could careless about them.
That's what they're thinking.
But they keep coming back. Yes.
And hopefullyif you have a good therapeutic alliance.
Right.
And and the conditions for treatmentare there, meaning you know, the person

(53:32):
can come often enough, the person can comewhen the person needs to.
If there's a crisis,the person has access to you.
You know, the conditions for treatmenthave to be there
and the alliance has to be there.
You have to trust somewhere,even if you really are angry
with me, because that last interpretationfelt mean.
And how dare I say something like thatin what it meaning.

(53:55):
I'm not going out of my way to saymean things.
It is felt to be that waybecause it is a sensitive area
and it the person may protect against it.
And if, I mean, that's an easy wayto discredit what I've said, right?
But yes, you want enough of an alliancethere that you feel fundamentally
I am working towards your good,you know, to to get you better.

(54:19):
If you can feel enough of that,then you come back and look.
There are times when treatments peopleget too upset with you and they can't.
You may have made a mistake that happens,or you know, or said something in a way
that, you know, we're human.
It may not have been the most sensitive.
Usually that doesn't have people leave.
Most of the time people leave either

(54:39):
because it wasn't a good fit to beginwith.
That's possible, right?
You know, you just weren't a matchor the internal saboteur.
The part that actually says,you know what, don't open all these
doors, don't go back there.
Just keep the status quo.
It's too dangerous.
Don't do it.
You're doing that fine.
And you're.
Doing fine enough that peace may win out.

(55:02):
And then, you know something will come upand they want to end their treatment
and fine, you know, and and sometimesthat comes after a period of time
and that's okay.They've gotten a certain amount.
They know some of the internal worldand unless there's a reason to
most people know,I tell them when they leave,
you know, you're alwayswelcome to come back,
you know, come back, come for a session.

(55:22):
If something's really confounding you,
you know, or come for a couple monthsand you can work on something.
And then if you, you know,don't want to stay, don't stay.
Everybody should have the choice.
I know people don't feel they havethe choice a lot of times in their lives
because they have an imprintand they have all kinds of things

(55:42):
that make life feel likethere are not good choices.
But I do at least try to let people know,
you know, coming to see me, I'mnot going to drag you in off the street.
That's your choice.Come to your appointment or don't.
Up to you.
Only comeif you feel you're getting something.
If people can understand that there can be
so much more to therapythan just fixing a symptom.

(56:06):
Sometimes you just want your symptomfixed.
Fine, okay?
And a lot of usare just desperate for that.
And if you can get that okay, you know.
But can you really get that good question.
You know, andbut sometimes people do experience that.
And they say, look, even if I get symptomrelief for like a year
and, you know, in two years,if it pops up again, I have to come back,

(56:27):
I will, and that's fine.
If it really interests you to go out.
You know what?
Yeah, the symptom bothers me. But why?
What is it from and why?
And you are looking for a different kindof transformation.
And you have access to that.
Meaning you can have a treatment,you can really start to see
all of the enormous waysin which we are guided by things.

(56:51):
We have no idea about.
And I think if you get to know those,you have this really amazing opportunity,
which is you get to change who you arefundamentally,
you know, and yeah,you have to have someone you trust
because you're going to sitthrough some scary times
because if you're used to being,you know, this kind of person,
but that was because you had an imprintand you had a family like this,

(57:12):
and you had a husband like that,and you had all these experiences.
We don't knowwhat you're going to look like.
I don't know what you're goingto look like when you first come in.
What's she gonna look like when she worksthrough all of these things and peels off
this and doesn't carrythat trash, and lets herself really feel
what she wanted to feel?
Who is she? Well, I don't know.

(57:33):
You may knowunconsciously somewhere in there,
but that scares peoplea lot of times, you know, because what?
What if I'm.
What if I'm lost?
What if I'm a nobody?What if I'm not a person?
What if I'm an awful person?
Under all of this, chancesare when you clean out all the trash,
nobody's an awful person. None of that.
And you're not lost or found.

(57:53):
Yes. So, I mean, what a great gift.
And and I wish we all
understood our dreams and wore them as whowe are the way you do.
I mean, just listening toyou talk about dreams.
They just.
They just part of who you are.
Well, I'm lucky
I get to spend eight hours a dayimmersed in people's dreams every day.

(58:15):
And you grew up with it.
You have to have your own treatmentto do this work because
how could I be clear on youif I'm not clear on me?
Yeah.
Impossible. Impossible.You can't use that.
You wouldn't have the skills.
I don't ask any of my patients
to do anythingI haven't submitted myself to previously.
Full examination is the best examinationI could get of my own internal world.

(58:38):
The ugly, the all, the jealousy, the hate,
the lying, the cheating, the whateverit is, the fear.
You know, you try to get to knowthat world as best you can so that it is
cleaned up enough to let youthen feel for yourself in your own life.
But really,what are your patients going through?
What do they need?

(58:59):
Thank you.
Thank you.
You're amazing.
Oh, well, you're very kind.
Thank you.
Well, it is true, but I want to just askyou a couple of questions there.
Sort of on topic, off topic,so on so many people,
when you're talking about their dreams,they're like,
I never remember my dreamswhere I had six dreams.
And then I stopped dreaming.

(59:19):
Does that non dreaming part of us
mean something that is that important to.
Are we not dreamingbecause there's a, we're making a step
and we're taking a little timeto kind of wade into the water.
Maybe.
You know, it's a hard question to answerwithout talking to the person.
And I say thatbecause you might stop dreaming,

(59:43):
because you're saying,I don't want to talk about this anymore.
Now, more than likely,what that means is my internal objects,
the parts of my parentsthat I have taken in and use
as part of my own personalityhave said, enough exploring over there.
You you just settle down.
We're not going to get the whole truth,

(01:00:04):
the emotional truthof how the family was really put together
and what pieces of are your parents trashyou're carrying
and how you're not able to be yourself,and why you can't have your life
the way you want?We're not going to explore that anymore.
That's shut down.So you may stop dreaming.
You may have made a big discovery,
and the internal saboteur got scaredand said, okay, that's enough, right?

(01:00:26):
So that's not shutting it down completely.
It maybe you stop for,you know, a couple nights, right?
Or you, you know, a version of thaton a continuum is.
Oh well I could, I could just tell youit was, you know, the color peach
kept coming all night, but I.
That's all I could hold on to there.Elusive. Right.
So, you know, these are ways of

(01:00:48):
saying I am defending against certain
very uncomfortable feelingsthat are sitting in my unconscious.
I am defending I protecting myselfagainst certain knowledge
about how I feel or certain things
that happened emotionally in my history.
And so I'm going to put the brakes onfor a minute.

(01:01:10):
People may also do that by havingI had ten dreams last night.
Now they won't tell me the dreamabout the piece they need to get to,
but they'll tell me some other dreamthat gives us information,
but it may not give us the main piece.
Right? So that dream is defensive.
It is protective.
Now, you know,we we just protect ourselves.

(01:01:33):
So you have to work through that.
And I can only analyze that and workthrough it with you.
When I hear you tell me your thoughts.
Well, I ask that questionbecause in my conversations
with with people,I sense a lot of frustration around that.
Like, okay, you know, you can suggest thatI pay attention to my dreams, etc., etc.

(01:01:53):
but then I stop dreaming.
Well, now, if you're in a treatmentand all that's happening, that may be
what I'm talking about.
If you don't get your dreams
on a regular basis,yes, there may be, you know, a fear
that right, that you're worriedthat there might be things in it
or the unconscious is sort of,you know, saying, don't go there.

(01:02:15):
Also, a lot of people don't startremembering their dreams
until they're asked, interestinglyenough, you know, I mean, often
people come to me, I don't really dream.
And then very quickly session to like,oh, who knew?
I dreamt, okay,because somebody is now wants to listen.
And so the dreams come becausethey're always there and available anyway.

(01:02:36):
And well, and I foundthat was true for me.
I didn't remember many of my dreamsor I just quickly dismissed them.
I had no idea thatthere was any value at all.
When I started saying to myself beforeI would close my eyes at night, wait,
why don't you think about rememberinga dream or universe?
Help me deliver this dream in the morning.

(01:02:57):
So in a way that I can remember it,
and after a few nights of that, therethey all were.
And even now, if I want to remembera dream, I can just say that to myself.
And most likely in the morningit'll be there.
Yeah, that's pretty cool.
It's amazing. Right?
I mean, I think that, you know,that's the other piece of this.

(01:03:18):
Yes, we get to change and that's great.
And you know, but in my mind you open upthis connection to your unconscious.
And that also opens up, I think, yourconnection to spirit, you know, and so
you really want connection to spiritbecause that is pure love.
So, you know, we want you know,and whether you

(01:03:38):
I point above itinside of you, you know, all over
you really want that?
We want as much love coming infor human beings as possible.
And and it's to that when you start to askcertain questions of yourself,
I think like even just as simple
as show me the dream, it's as if your,your unconscious is saying, well,

(01:04:00):
all right, here, hereit's all it's abundant.
It's been here for youthe whole time. Yeah.
And that'swhat we're really wanting to get people
to, you know, people say like,
I want to be in this state of gratitudeand all this.
Yes. A lot of timesyou consciously may want it,
but we have to clean out a lot of trash.
That's in the way, because it's blockingyou unconsciously and you don't know it.

(01:04:25):
So all of your work consciouslydoesn't get you as far as you want,
because the unconscious piecehasn't been attended to.
So that's the other piece we're doing.
So I've noticed a little bit latelythat there seems to be
a service where you can kind of textin to somewhere.

(01:04:45):
Your issueand get a response, texted back like, I'm
super stressed because of A, B and C,and then you get a text response back.
So for people like me or that, you know,
I just want to fall on the floorand go, that is not therapy.
I don't like anything about that system.
You have no idea

(01:05:06):
because you're not really in communicationwith the person texting.
What is going on?
Where are they?
What is happening?
It's almostit could very well be dangerous.
I think potentially it really could be.
And also, my goodness, the importance
of a therapeuticrelationship is so enormous.
Meaning the therapeutic alliance,you know, your trust that the person

(01:05:30):
working with the deepest part of your mindknows what they're doing,
is a professional, has boundaries,will not intrude on you
in an inappropriate way.
There are so many pieces to thatas a professional
that when I hear that somebodyis just going to have a quick text
and you can text us and we text you backsomething, what are you even texting back?

(01:05:50):
What are you texting back?
And you're charging $2.50 or somethingfor every time?
I have no idea, but I just can't imagine.
The person doesn't know you, doesn'treally know anything about you.
Look, even patients, because everybodywants to text now, you know?
But most of the time it's well,we have to have a conversation about this.
This isn't you know,I don't I'm not giving you a yes

(01:06:12):
or no way, this or that most of the time,you know, unless it's
do you have an appointmentavailable or something.
Even all of thesewe are always thinking about them
and sort ofhow are people using these modalities
to express something to ward off,something to deny something to,
you know, protect themselves,to not get close enough.

(01:06:34):
All of these actions that look simpleand every day you're
hopefully the professional therapistis paying attention to all of them,
making sense of themand trying to understand them in ways
that then let you learn something deeperabout yourself and how you function.
So these are, you know, just this, oh, Itext somebody and somebody texts me back.

(01:06:59):
Seems, yes,potentially very dangerous to me.
I think we're so many of us are sodesperate for some insight or some help.
Now, and we don't understandreally what that looks like.
Are there ways that we can knowwhat is working?
Will we start to have a feelingabout something?

(01:07:21):
It's hard to say.
Well,we start to have a feeling about something
when so many of us have losttrack of our feelings.
And I think that's why we'rein the predicament we're in, in the world.
You know, it's why people are saying,oh, we would really like
I or texting to replace human beings.
Well, then,
all right, so you'd like somethingthat basically doesn't have feelings.

(01:07:43):
Okay. Well, that seems ill advised.
If you're a human being given
as a human being, the goal is to be ableto use your feelings.
I think that's why we have them, right.
You know, we have themto give us information that is accurate.
So many of us have either cut them offbecause we've been so hurt,
or they've been twisted and,you know, we've bent ourselves,

(01:08:06):
and twisted ourselves to accommodateother people's feelings.
So we lose the clearest access to our own.
But the goal is reallyto get all of that back.
And so if you are going to somethingthat doesn't
really allow for that, that seems veryill advised for human beings. Yes.
I mean, I think

(01:08:26):
ultimately if we keep traveling downthat path, we're going to do ourselves in.
We may.
But the idea really, to me,is that once you're able to access
and work from your feelings,then all of your decisions will be good.
I mean, your decisions, I mean, we'reall going to make mistakes here and there,

(01:08:46):
but but you,without knowing your feelings,
without coming from a place of love,you cannot consistently make good choices.
Yes, you want to have some wayof anchoring yourself and your feelings.
Do that, right?
Otherwise, you know, as I've said,everything becomes an intellectual

(01:09:07):
endeavor.
The problem with that is, for most things,
I can make a list of ten good thingsand ten bad things.
Well,that didn't solve my problem, right? Do I?
Do I take this job or not?
Ten good, ten bad.
Okay, what?
Hopefully you get to do is go insideand go, oh, but you know what?
When I think about this job, you know whatthis feels x, y and z, right?

(01:09:29):
And then obviously,if we can look at your dreams
and if they are, we're lucky and they'reconfirmatory or they say, you know what?
Think about this piece, right?
May not mean don't take the job, it justmay mean do a little more work here
so that, you know, you go into the jobin a, in a more free state.
Yeah.
Without this thingpounding down on you. Right.

(01:09:51):
Thank you again.Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you for joining us.
Come back and tell everybody about us by.