Truth, Justice, and Courage with Dr. Niaz Kasravi

In this powerful episode of And Now, Love, host Cynthia Marks sits down with Dr. Niaz Kasravi, a national expert on criminal justice and human rights, to discuss the intersection of advocacy, policy, and personal courage. Dr. Kasravi shares her journey from immigrant roots to founding the Avalon Institute and becoming a key figure in justice reform. Together, they unpack the systemic inequities in the U.S. justice system, the post-9/11 challenges to immigrant communities, and the grassroots organizing that brings change. Dr. Kasravi offers practical advice on how everyday people can contribute to justice efforts through activism, education, and truth-telling. She emphasizes the power of individual actions, the importance of political accountability, and the need to move beyond fear in these polarized times. This episode is a deeply human call to action, reminding us that change begins with empathy and bravery.

Episode Transcript

(00:04):
Hi. Welcome to And Now Love.
My guest today is Doctor Niaz Kasravi,
I am so excited to talk with herabout the work she does.
It's apparent that the stridesshe makes in the support of justice
come from her heart,from a place of love for humanity.

(00:25):
Doctor Kasravi is a national expert
and advocate on criminal justice,
social justice and racial justice.
With more than 17 years of experienceleading projects across the country.
She is the founder and directorof the Avalon Institute

(00:45):
for Applied Research, a research, advocacyand training institute.
She's also the former directorof the Criminal Justice
Program for the NAACP.
She holds a PhD in criminology,Law and Society
from the University of Californiaat Irvine.

(01:06):
DoctorKasravi was born in Iran and migrated
to the United Stateswith her family in 1984.
And I could say a million more things,but I think now we need to talk.
Hi. Hi.
Thank you so much for being here.Thank you for having me.
It's really my pleasure.
So we have so much to talk about,and we may run out of time,

(01:29):
but I wanted to know, first off,what got you started
in this field of criminology,law and society?
Well, it wasn't planned.
And when I was finally readyto select a major in college,
I was actually determined to gointo psychology and go into therapy later.
That's sort of where my path had led me.

(01:51):
Oh, a nice crossover for us.
I think. Yes, for sure.
You know, I figured I this is the
you know, one of the only times in my lifewhere I'm going to have the opportunity
to just explore and learnthings that are interesting to me.
So I ended up taking a criminology course
and, and then another one,because it was really fascinating

(02:12):
for me to learn aboutthe American criminal justice system,
something that had never crossed my mindthat I'd be interested in.
And it had a lot to dowith the professors and mentors
I had in collegewho really brought this subject to life.
Right?
It's where I learnedabout the inequalities
and the injustices within the criminallegal system here in America.

(02:34):
And I think as an immigrant comingto this country, especially from a country
that doesn't guarantee you equalityand nondiscrimination, learning about it
in the U.S.
was shocking, because when you come hereas an immigrant,
this is not what you expect.
You kind of see the brochure, right?
The land of opportunity.

(02:55):
Yeah.
And that's not to say thatthat's not true.
The reason I can do thiswork, and I have been able to do
the things that I've been able to do inmy career
is because of all the opportunitiesI've had.
But we have our issuesand they're not often advertised.
And so when I learnedabout the systemic racism

(03:17):
within the justice system,the oppression and brutality
in law enforcementthat, you know, often exists.
I learned more about how,you know, the criminal justice system
really targetsthe poor people who have mental health
issues,people who have drug dependency issues.
And, you know,these folks make up the majority

(03:39):
of our criminal legal system,unfortunately.
I it was shocking.
But also,I think my mentors taught me that
you have the opportunityto make change here in America.
In fact,that's how we've always moved forward
throughout our history and overcomea lot of the dark times that this
nation and most nations have had intheir past is by fighting.

(04:00):
And one would hope that through the courseof taking a course
like that, that you would come awaythinking,
I have the strength to make some changeshere.
You know, you learn that the system,even though the laws
make the peer equal on their face,the way they're applied is not equal.
When you apply it to a societythat's not on equal

(04:21):
footing to communitieswho don't have access to the resources,
the results end upbeing promoting more inequality.
My mentors also showed how
we have the power to change things, right?
Each of us.
And so I decided to really go forthwith a criminal,

(04:42):
criminal justice and majorand criminology, law and society.
And I didn't knowwhether I would go into law
or whether I would go into academia.
But the more I kind of advanced inmy studies, I really had a desire to be,
you know, boots on the groundwith the communities who are leading

(05:02):
the campaigns and the fights to improvethis broken criminal justice system.
And so I went to the into the advocacyspace.
I see. And that seems hard to do.
Maybe when you're in that world,
there are places that you know you can gowhere you can become part
of an advocacy team or some such thing,but it seems so vast.

(05:23):
How do youhow do you do you have to find a niche?
Do you just. Generalize?
It was hard.
You know, I was in grad school and often,although it's changing a bit,
but often graduate school preparesyou mostly for research and academia.
Right.
And I found that as important and vitalas it is,

(05:45):
I found it to be a little bitdisconnected, from the community is that,
you know, the research in the studiesare working on and addressing.
And so there I saw a gapthat I wanted to bridge.
Right.
I wanted to bridge the gap of likebringing my knowledge and expertise and

(06:06):
making it
available to organizations and communitieswho are fighting the good fight.
I see.
So could you take the researchthat some of your peers might be doing,
and then say, okay,so here's what this is showing.
Let me go outand see how we can make this different.
Yeah, 100%.
And it was hard in the beginning,
going back to your question of howdifficult it was to get into this field.

(06:28):
I really banged on every door. You did.
And what kind of doors are those?
Initially wanted to be in the human rightsspace to do this work.
And, you know, I think civil rightsand human rights are very interconnected.
And so I kind of consider itall human rights.
But I applied to all the jobsthat I could find
and various different organizations.

(06:49):
I reached out and talk to peopleto kind of get advice
about how to get my foot in the doorin this field.
And it was really tough.
You know,I think there are, folks who and programs
perhaps, that offer internships and thingsfor students to kind of get involved
and have connections in these spacesbefore graduating.

(07:12):
But for me, that I wasn'tI wasn't that I see.
And so I remember I would get rejection
after rejectionbecause, you know, it's is hard.
It was hard to break. Inbecause you have no experience.
And you don't have any experience
until you have experienced thingsand yet experienced the same old story.
Exactly.
I did have my research experiencein the field a little bit.

(07:33):
That was really helpful.
But ultimately what happenedis I banged on the door.
I got connected basically to the newly
hireddirector of the US Human Rights program
at Amnesty International, andI just set up an informational interview.
I did say I'm looking for work,but mostly I just want to come

(07:55):
and learn about your program,learn about this work, get advice from you
about how to, you know,get a foot in the door in this field.
And so I showed up in DC and he was like,how can I help?
It was his first week on the job.
I thought,oh yeah, it was a very new program.
And and so we had a conversationand I told him what I was interested in.

(08:16):
And he had some actually, that first timehe had some letters from prisoners
that he had to read through,and categorize and assess.
And he's like,do you have some time? I said, sure.
And so we sat together.
He handed me the pile and we, you know,I reviewed the letters
and I kind of categorize them,and I and I, and I assessed them a bit

(08:38):
and then I left.
So so that was the first initial contact,but there was no work.
Right. I come back to California.
This was out in Washington, D.C.,I come back to California and 911 happens.
We start to see a lot of anti-immigrant
policies and practices go into action.
And I was not working at that point.

(09:00):
So my, friend who is an immigrationattorney contacted
me and said, can you comeand help us down at the I.n.s.
office? That was immigration.
Naturalization services waswas what it was called back then.
Because there's
a lot of people coming inbased on a new law,
the NSA's program,that required men of a certain age

(09:22):
from majority Muslim countries to come inand register themselves with the INS.
These are people who who are on visasor not, citizens.
And people were following the lawby coming in and introducing themselves.
But there was no process or protocolto deal
with this largeand influx of folks coming in.

(09:43):
And there were language barriers.
And so they just kind of neededall hands on deck.
So I went down there and just down here
in downtown L.A., and it was a mess.
There were just hundreds and thousands ofpeople lined up various offices.
They weren't
folks that work theredidn't know how to treat them properly.

(10:04):
I just jumped in and did whatever I couldand came back home.
And I wrote the director of the humanrights program at Amnesty International.
And I said, you know, this is happening.
And he said, yeah, I'd heard about it.
But if you'd like,you can write up research memo on it,
just kind of what you're experiencingor what you're seeing.

(10:25):
So I did that.
And then his bosses over at the UK,because amnesty is,
headquartered in the United Kingdom,
reached out shortly after thatand said, we heard this is happening.
What are you doing about it?
As the newly
and he said, I actually havea doctoral graduate working on this issue.
And so that's kind of how I was ableto get my foot in the door.

(10:47):
They created a position, for meat amnesty to go and do
work aroundracial profiling and human rights.
That's amazingthat you must have really rounded this up.
Well,in your description of what was happening,
enough so that they could,you know, see the lights

(11:07):
go on and say, wait a minute,we've got to talk about this.
I think it's also you just got to do it.
Sometimes people think that these problemsare so enormous
that how can I as one individualdo anything.
But it takes so little courageto just take that first step

(11:28):
and just write about,for example, my case, what are you seeing,
what is happening to folks coming inand trying to abide by the law
and then they're being treatedin this way.
So what was happening isthey were being relatively mistreated
because there was no process of howto deal with this large group of people.
Mistreated in what way dismissed or.

(11:49):
Get in line.
They were just like being manhandled.
I see, and and these peoplewho were in charge of this process
or group of scenarios
didn't have enough information themselvesto know how to do this properly.
Yeah.
So it was just a big mishmash of thing.
100%. People coming in frightened and.

(12:09):
Yeah, and what happenedis there was such a huge number of people
reporting that they couldn't
get through themin the course of a normal business day.
So all different scenarios and differentlocations, they would be held overnight.
They wouldn't be allowed to go backand come back the next day.
So they would put them into the basementand hold them,
or they would take them to jailor transfer them to prison.

(12:32):
And in some cases say,
you know, we're sending these peopleover to you due to the war on terror.
And so, you know, officialswho had no information thought these were
terrorists, you know, versus peoplewho just come in to bide by the law.
And so it was just documentingsome of that.
Right. And that's what it was.
I think that a lot of my experienceshave shown me that

(12:54):
you don't have to tacklethe entire gigantic problem all at once.
You just have to play a part in it.
And that starts with the first step.
And even just beginningto tell the truth about a situation.
Maybe
you maybe you're not in a positionto really act on it,
but just to saythis is what's really happening, right?

(13:18):
And and we have to acknowledge the facts.
A lot of this work is abouttelling the truth despite the pushback.
Despite that, it will make people
uncomfortable and sad and angry.
And I thinkthat there's something to be said about
just being mindful disrupter.

(13:40):
You got to shake people outof their comfort zone to make any change.
I think so.
And in your reporting onon this particular issue, all those years
ago, the people that you handedthis information over to then
did what did they do what they couldto effect change?
Yeah.
Based on this researchand sort of the desire

(14:03):
and the goals of the program directorat that point
and what he had envisioned us working onor what was happening at the moment.
Right.
Because you got to be responsive
to what's happening on the ground.
And this was a big issuethat the organization
had decided to prioritize.
So I went on board as a researchassistant, and I wore many hats.

(14:25):
It was a
relatively you know,they created the position really fast.
And so we had and it was a new program.
So we all it was just two of us.So we had to do everything.
And we decided to hold a number of,
public hearingsacross the country to hear from people
who were being impactedby these discriminatory policies,

(14:48):
racial profiling, which means, you know,the police are targeting you.
Law enforcement is targeting youbecause of your race, gender,
religion, nationality, what have you.
So sort of like characteristicsthat you, you know, just their innate.
Yes, to talk aboutwhat is happening to communities
after 911 and before 911,because racial profiling

(15:11):
has been a challenge and an issuefor this country for a very long time.
Yes, right.
It's just nine over 11.
And these like political,historical moments
and political events that happenbring new communities to the table.
So people from the Middle East and Muslimcommunities, or people who just look like

(15:33):
they could be from thatregion of the world, were being targeted.
We held a series of public hearingsfrom across
the country, heard from communities,heard from law enforcement themselves.
And it was really fascinatingbecause we had a
I think it was an Oaklandwhere we had a black police officer
take the stand and talk about howwhen he has been

(15:54):
in uniform, he'sactually racially profiled.
And when he's been out of uniform, he'sactually
been the target of racial profilingby other law enforcement.
Right?
So it's a systemic issue.
It's not like an individual issue. Yes.
And we put out a report,and then we set about trying to pass laws
and advocate both on the internationallevel, but particularly also in the US,

(16:20):
to help pass racial profiling lawsboth nationally and across various states.
And have you seen the fruits of that?
Some.
But ofteneven the policies that do get passed
have like a missing piece that makes themnot as effective as they can be.

(16:41):
So first of all,how are you defining racial profiling?
Right.
So you have to define the problem properlyin order to address it.
Are you requiring data collection?
If you do find evidence of racialprofiling
by law enforcement,is there a consequence?
Is there a demand to change?

(17:01):
Is, you know, soall of these things have to fit in
within a policy for it to be effective.
And often, you know, 1 or 2 piecesmight be missing that
that makes the policynot as effective as it could be.
So there's definitely statesthat have racial profiling laws,
but a lot of them are lackinglike composite of set of components.

(17:26):
And is that a
difficulty in the system
at large in that there areso many different modes of operating
that there's not kind of a consistentfeeling about what
humanity deserves from state to stateor city to city, town to town.
Yeah, policing is hyper localized.

(17:49):
There is no overall systemthat governs all police departments.
You have as many policiesand as many realities on the ground, both
within communities and political,as you have police departments, sure.
Different communities, different levelsof income, different groups of people.
Different political influences.
Different ages.

(18:09):
Different types of peoplewho are in power.
Right. So it becomes difficult
to have like a national standardand then try to infuse it.
But it's helpful. Right?
The problem iswe've never been able to pass
and racial profiling acts,all these years.
So on a national. Level, yeah.

(18:30):
So that there are kind of loopholes
in the system that there's a wayto kind of maneuver around what is written
is that doyou think that's typically planned, like,
do we need to be able to find a way outwhen somebody comes to us and says, hey,
or is it just by accident, by the breadthof knowledge that's required to complete

(18:52):
this all encompassing thing is so vastthat you're going to miss something?
Is it planned to have laws
that are not super effective? Yes.
Or is it a function of thisbeing in complicated issue?
Yes, maybe I for me,
based on my experienceand what I've seen, it's often

(19:16):
a lack of willingness
to take accountabilityand to hold law enforcement
that violate people's rights fullyaccountable in a real, consistent way.
That issue is very complicated in my mind.
I don't think it's very complicatedto create policies that are effective,
but I think it's complicatedto get political support

(19:41):
both to pass those policiesand then to implement them.
Some of it is financial.
A lot of it is the political powerof law enforcement.
The fact that,
fear of crime and public safety
is such a political bargaining chipand is played so well by politicians

(20:03):
to get votes, people tend to vote based
on fear often and tough on crime.
Rhetoric has shown to be effective,unfortunately.
And also, you know,like I said earlier, law enforcement
has amassed an enormous amountof political power and influence.

(20:25):
And so they're very well protectedand aware of protecting their own
against full transparencyand accountability oftentimes.
Unfortunately. Yeah.
So I would imaginethat many of these law enforcement groups
are in a community

(20:46):
themselves where they it's very hardto, you know,
put your peer up against the wallbecause they've done
somethingthat they need to be accountable for.
I mean, up against the wall.
And hey, let's talk about this.
Yes, but I'm going to slam youagainst the wall. Right.
And so a lot of that just must go insort of low radar

(21:07):
because it's just too hard tois it better or is it worse
to disrupt our communityover this particular case?
Right. That's definitely a factor.
It's very difficult for even from
within their own communityfor somebody to step up.
It takes courage and it takes beingwilling to put yourself at risk.

(21:29):
Right.
Because these are people you depend onwhen you're out there on the streets
and fighting a situationand, you know, fighting crime.
So these are people who needto have your back in those situations.
And so if you're going to step outand and say something about somebody
who maybe has oversteppedor done something wrong,

(21:49):
then you're putting yourselfin your own safety at risk.
It's a tough job, right?I mean, this is how.
You get around that.
You know, so many people have saidthis quote and it's it's so cliche
in some ways, but with great power comesgreat responsibility, right?
These are the things if you want to bea good human being and in whatever
profession you have, you have to acceptthe responsibility that comes with it.

(22:11):
No, I have a lot of conversationsaround this issue.
Someone said something to methat that I think
really rings true about how I feel.
So it'snot that I think every police officer is
bad or policeofficers are bad people in general.
I think the role that law enforcementis currently playing

(22:33):
in the US and the way they're playingit is not good.
Right?
So it's not about the individual officerswho are in there, because I know folks,
you know,
who have likelaw enforcement in their family,
and I know many peoplewho are law enforcement,
the officers themselves,and they're they're nice.
They're nice,but they're out of what they're doing.
And a lot of themgo in there with like, great intention.

(22:55):
Right?
But the way that the whole systemand structure is set up
creates so much violence and oppression
and discrimination,and it's so protected from any sort
of real transparency and accountabilitythat that's where the problem is.
It's not with the individual actors,even though they make up this, this,

(23:18):
this whole. But we got to kind of tackle.
The larger level.
It would be as ifevery almost every individual is entering
a field like this,because they want to do something good
for their peers, for their community,you know.
Yeah.
I wonder too, then, if you when you'restudying, preparing your course,

(23:42):
is this part of
the program our students taught thatyou're going to come up against situations
where you've got to understand that you'reresponsible for doing the right thing,
and it may not be the right thingaccording to your peer.
Does that come up?
I mean, howthat's a lot to try and teach someone.
Yeah, there'sthere's a lot of great training programs.

(24:05):
There's a lot of,
funding that's been poured into improvedtraining for law enforcement.
Unfortunately, that never correlateswith better outcomes.
Training has never proven to be effective,
because what happenswhen you're in the classroom room,
and then what you seeand what you're taught by your colleagues

(24:26):
when you're on the streets and withinthe culture is very different.
And so it doesn't always correlate.
Yes. As is the casefor so many different endeavors.
Well, I, I didn't really mean to focuson this, but it's really fascinating.
And it kind of speaks to how somehow,
some waywe all have to get back to the best of us.

(24:47):
And and part of that is really,as you said, you know, understanding
what you're responsible for as a human.
And instead of going against the grainor taking the easy way out,
we all have to find a way to supportwhat we know is right,
which is right for the people we loveand people we care about.

(25:11):
The people we don't knowwho deserve better.
Yeah for sure.
And I thank you
for doing what you're doingbecause I think you you step out of line.
I do.
To the dismay of my friends
and family,I'm always stepping out of line. So,
I mean, they're proud of me, but,you know, I.
Bet they are. But they.
You worry about you. I'm sure.

(25:32):
So we don't have to talk about thisif you don't like.
But it must be much differentnow in terms of what you feel
personally than what it was like,say, 15 years ago or 20 years ago.
Is that trueor is there discussion amongst
your friends, your peers,who are doing things similarly,

(25:52):
that you have a whole new areato contend with in that
if I really say these things,
what's going to happen to me down the roadis, is
have you always had to contend with that,some sort of personal fear?
Not to this degree.
What's happening now in terms

(26:13):
of advocacy for marginalized groups,for law enforcement
accountability,criticize izing the system being labeled
as somehow un-American or,
you know, you hate us type of,
label, first of all, is false. Yes.
But the degree is is different.

(26:35):
This work has never been popular.
When I first started,I graduated, I'm going to date myself.
I have I graduated in 2001.
You just have a kid. Just a. Kid.
This was not a very popular like field.
Nobody was talking about criminal justicereform.
In fact, my family,especially my family in Iraq.

(26:58):
What is she doing?
Is it a doctor?
Is it a lawyer?Is it engineer at this? So, you know.
And this thing she's doingis needed in the United States.
Right? Right.
But then there came a time.
So it was, you know, people thought,
she's just super sensitive and caring and,you know,
and then there, there was a time wherethis kind of work advocating for reforming

(27:21):
and transforming the system becamecomplete, like dinner table conversation.
Every city, almost every city and,and and county and the nation definitely
was taking on some aspectof reforming the criminal justice system,
whether it's like police accountability,whether it's reentry support,
rehabilitation, you know, thingslike that, you know, helping end the

(27:43):
the drug war because it hasn't been sosome but people started talking about it.
It became a lot more popular.
And this has something to dowith who's governing.
Yeah, to a great extent.
It also had a lot to do at that point.
And and often.
But it only is talked about,I think in situations
where it might be politically advantages.

(28:03):
So people start talking about it more.
When we had fiscal crises across the boardin a major way,
you know, on the local, state,
national level budgets were an issue forfor governments, right?
And they started doing analysisof what they're spending money on.
And, and they sawhow much money was being poured
into criminal justicewithout any real kind of outcome,

(28:27):
you know, greater public safetycompared to what the investment was.
So then they started talking about this.
It was a little bit more popular.
Folks are still talking about it.
So it's not like people forgot,but it's a little bit less safe
because of the political rhetoricthat's directed
against anyone who'sadvocating to improve the system.

(28:48):
And so it's scary.
I mean, people are being detainedwhen they're trying to reenter the country
for the work that they're doing,whether it's around
immigration enforcement or,you know, ensuring due process
for immigration enforcementor policing or anything
that is not really the status quo that,that that the new powers that be.

(29:12):
So if you were to leave the country.
I don't know. But I think about it.
Yeah.
I've never been oneto not be vocal, on things.
So if they wanted to searchmy social media,
they could probably find stuffthey don't like. Yes. Right.
And so my come back often to this
kind of mentality isI don't hate the country.

(29:32):
In fact,I've had all these amazing opportunities
to do the work that I dothat is so important and meaningful to me.
I think if you're tryingto improve something,
it means you actually care for it.
If you edit it,you would just leave, right?
I mean, that's kind of the correlationyou would see.
Yeah. So so it's it's a bit more risky.
It's more fear.

(29:53):
I think, first of all.
And then whether that fear pansout into actual
like something happening to youremains to be seen. Yes.
But I think the moment requiresa level of courage
that maybe wasn't required to this extent.
When this issue was popular or safer.

(30:14):
Right.
Because it was kind of across the board,
sort of expected as a mode of behaviorthat we're going to look into things,
we're going to support those peoplewho are suffering or who need our help.
And, and now those communities, somehow
the almost will often,I think, represent in the minds

(30:36):
of some people who don't deserve helpor people who
we should be afraid of, or whowe need to isolate or control or
or hold captive on some level,whatever that is.
And I mean, it's kind of fascinatingto watch how that changes over time.
I mean, I imagine we're going to evolveback to something where
we're we're more I hope we're receptiveto the things that you're looking into.

(31:02):
And, and that we as humanswant to expand our knowledge
and what we know about each otherand find that helping
each otheris sort of more beneficial than not.
Yeah, that's my hope.
And it ebbs and flows.
You know, we go through these cyclesso nothing is ever permanent.
And that's why it's important to do thiswork.

(31:24):
Right.
Because without these disruptions,without these
like taking of risksand having courage to step out of line,
we wouldn't have shifts towardsthe better.
Yeah.
I mean, I think it's important
to figure out how to change the status quowhen the status quo isn't serving.
Most of us there.
Was a time where I felt that people

(31:47):
who didn't disagree with me,maybe they didn't like what I stood for.
Maybe they just,you know, respectfully disagreed.
But at the current moment,
somehowit feels like they folks who disagree
with with you politicallyalmost see you as an enemy or as an evil.

(32:07):
And I think that's the dangerous part.
So regardless of whatyour political affiliation
or like beliefs are,I think that's dangerous territory
when because of your different politicalviews, you're labeled as an enemy.
I think it's dangerous and scary.
I think so, too.
And it's it's really brand new for us.

(32:30):
I think it's probably happenedduring the course of history
to be in a positionwhere people almost say, well,
I can't have dinner with them becauseI don't agree with them politically.
Wow. I mean,I don't remember that happening
until recently, where there'sso much division that it's it's even down

(32:52):
to sitting and having a meal with someone,with people that you cared about.
And now you can'tyou can't do that anymore.
And and I understandbecause we all feel so much fire,
you know, about our positions.
Many of us do that.
It's it's hard to hear somebodywho has a completely opposing view.

(33:12):
But, you know, I don't know,America is sort of based on that.
We we're allowedto have different opinions.
We hear each other,we learn from each other, we don't agree.
And we come and meet in the middleor someplace close to the middle.
And and we're an ongoing experiment.
And that's just notwhat's going on right now.
Yeah.
We're we're all it's eitherwhat I believe or it's nothing.

(33:37):
And how many times can you believethey believe that?
I mean, it'swe're just so outraged at each other.
Yeah. Yeah.
I don't think it'll last,but I think the direction we go
in, we go into depends
a lot on what each of usdo at this moment.
Right.
So if you don't want to speak up,

(34:01):
if you just want to put your head down,
tend to your own affairs and not carewhat's happening to other people.
If most people decide to do that
this country will go in a different wayversus if most people say no.
I know this doesn't affect meor my family, but that is not cool.
What's happening to these people over herethat are not me?
So I'm going to speak up.

(34:21):
I'm going to demand thingsfrom my elected official.
I'm going to demand thingsfor my local police.
We pay for for their salaries.
We elect them. Right.
And I know this is set a lot thrown up,but they do work.
For us and that's a hard thingfor people to keep in mind,
especially whenwe're afraid of those entities

(34:42):
and they work for us,but yet we fear them.
And so we insulate ourselves. Right?
So so I think we're in a critical moment
where each of our decisions,
whether we realize it or not, in termsof what we are willing to do,
and not everybody has to go upand hold a protest sign.
A lot of people should and they canand they want to. Right?

(35:04):
But there are so many waysto take a stand for your values
and just kind of erase the D or theR next to the political candidates name.
And just like think aboutwhat do I believe is right
and then go advocate for that.
That's a really good thing to think about.
Erase the D or the Rand just listen to the message.

(35:25):
And how does that fit withwhat you think is correct for.
Humanity and not what social mediaor specific media outlet thinks like?
Really do some deep searching like withinyourself, around like where are my lines?
Like what are my values?
And so I think and it doesn't have to besome big long term project.

(35:46):
But but I think what we do now matters
in a different way than in the past.
So what would youyou've made a couple of suggestions,
but what are somegood ways that we can sort of
tip ourselves
in the directionof speaking up for what we know is right?
I have a feeling, for example,a lot of people who are protesting for

(36:11):
whatever cause that may beor who think they could protest, think,
well, there's, you know,there's already 2000 people over there,
so I don't need to participate,but it's only 2000 people
because there were 2000 individualswho made that choice.
How do we convince ourselves, really,that as individuals
we are meaningful to the system?

(36:32):
Oh yeah, I have a meme
that I love that that says,but what can I do?
I'm only one person said 7 billion people,
you know.
So I think if everybody felt like I'mjust one person, nothing will ever change.
Yeah.
So I think there's a variety of thingsand people are comfortable

(36:55):
with, like some people want to donateto their favorite organizations.
Advocacy organizations are being targeted.
They're losing funding.
There are so many issuesthat they have to deal with that
they need a lot of supportnow, can get involved locally
or with a national group,but whatever, like is closer to your heart
in terms of what you want to workon, right?
You can talk about these issuesin your local city council meeting.

(37:19):
You can write letters,you can call your elected official,
you can protest, you can educate people.
You can educate yourself. Right.
Sometimes I just turn offall of my social media.
I don't listen, like to news channels.
I just go and do some digging,
like, let me seewhat's going on today around this issue.

(37:40):
And I just check variousand then I figure out, oh,
you kind ofcome to your own conclusion, friends.
So you're seeing, an issue
from different points of view,and then you settle with what seems
right in your.
Yeah, heart.
Yeah.
And, and I think particularly social mediahas been
it's been wonderful in many ways.

(38:01):
But it's also in this momentsome people are finding it very toxic,
especially because oftentimes these daysyou don't even know what's true anymore.
There are no more fact checkers.
And who is a fact checkeranyway to begin with.
Right.
So sometimes it's helpful for meto just like turn all of that off
for sure and go to some trusted,reliable news sources

(38:24):
and just kind of read up onwhat's happening
rather than being bombardedwith these kind of
because what's happeningon social media, for example, is things
are designed to get your attentionand like three seconds.
So they have to be gut punch,either in a good way or a bad way.
So it's a lot of anxiety and fear
and hopefully sometimes joy or happiness,but we see less or less of that.

(38:48):
So sometimes it's just good toto do your own research and,
and figure out what you thinkversus listening to social media or,
you know, even political leaders like,are they right?
This data that they're throwing at me,for example, about crime being high,
are they actually right?Where did they come up with that?
Right. It's notthese are political talking points.
Because then you goand you research for the FBI's

(39:09):
own statistics showthat these claims are not correct.
So thenbut you have to be open to that. Yes.
Because I think safe D is so important.
And one of the things that happens withsocial media is it plays into your world
and what makes you safe and happyand what makes you feel validated.
Isn't it true?

(39:30):
Yeah, because I'm not big intosocial media that over the course of time,
what you're receiving becomespretty narrowed
and so you lose sight of another opinionor another 27 opinions.
Yeah, that you don't even know exist.
And you're thinking that everyoneis following the same path as you.

(39:50):
Yeah.
And then you attach yourselfto other people in social media
who are following the same path.
And, and so that's the view of the worldor that's the view of the United States.
Yeah. You know, for most of the country.
The other thing, like you're saying,like social media directs
you to just kind of follow a certain path.
Oftenpeople don't know diverse communities or

(40:12):
diverse families or people from differentnationalities or backgrounds.
It might be differentin some of the states.
Some of the coastal states may be, buta lot of the country people are isolated.
So I think if you actually reach outto go to the communities,
go to their restaurants,go to their culture,
like get to meet people,so it humanizes it for you.

(40:34):
So that I think that's a huge step,because this process
of dehumanization that happens through,oh, immigrants are bad.
They're responsible for crime.
Criminals don't deserve due process thatlike, it's all because we're so isolated.
If you sit and get to know a humanbeing for who they are,
I think it increases your potentialto have empathy

(40:56):
and then see similarity easebetween yourself and them.
Despite all the differences.
How do we get people to to do that,to step out of their own circle?
It's so comfortablebeing in your little community,
and I think in a lot of communities too,that if you do step out,
then you're consideredas, you know, sort of an outlier.

(41:17):
Well, so, you know, why are you going overto that restaurant to eat?
Right? Right.
It's difficult,especially in probably in particular
parts of the country,it's a lot more difficult than it is.
For example, in LA
you can find all kinds of restaurantsthat were already intermingled a lot.
But I do think that the storieswe hear through the movies and the media

(41:40):
can also have an
impact on what we open ourselvesto, right?
So if you're only seeing certain typesof people play certain characters,
so like a brown man with facial hairis always going to play or terrorist,
I think having those stories told throughthese big outlets is really important

(42:01):
for people to just be open to evenstepping out of their comfort zone.
Yes, because you do operate in the worldbased on those stereotypes.
Then, and it's amazing when you stop
to consider that, like,I just saw this thing happen.
And to me, that instills this fearbecause that's

(42:22):
what I've seen over and over againin the movies.
And thenbut if you look at the reality of it
and think, gosh, that's not my reality,that's not this reality.
That's something that's been createdand played upon over and over again.
And there's so much of that. Yeah.
I think what you're saying is right.
It's so if you live in a communitythat's pretty homogenous

(42:44):
and you don't have a lot of diversityaround,
you have to go two hoursto get to a restaurant that's ethnic.
Let's say it's a little difficult,but there's there's ways there's like,
you can read the showsyou're exposed to, you can travel.
Right?
I just think we gotto get out of our bubble and we got to.
Sometimes you have to wake upand if you're feeling a certain way,

(43:05):
you just remind yourself,
not convince yourself, at least for me,that people are good and they can be.
Despite all the stuff on the exteriorlike this person has all the
desires for their life that I do.
They want to be safe.
They want to have food on the table.
They want their family to have,you know, a roof over their head.

(43:26):
And so you just have to remindyourself of,
like the shared humanityand the shared desire
for just having a normal lifethat is at peace.
But it's not easy.
I think we just get exposed totoo much stuff that diverts us from that.
But that is super importantbecause basically

(43:47):
we all do those things
as my friend Doctor Bail would have said,you know, it all starts
with the individual, and we have to eachmake ourselves as whole as we can
make ourselves and understand
that we all start from a place of love.

(44:07):
And that's been
sort of encapsulated to a
larger degree or not in termsof being able to reach that.
And if we can figure out how to
come at life
with love.
And be brave enough to operate

(44:28):
from that place,then we can make a change.
And if we start now,I mean it's super, super important.
We can see what's happening in our countryand in the world as well.
And I think we the best thing we can do
is listen to our heartsand try to remember that

(44:50):
a lot of the way we operate may be donebecause we've been put in a position
to feel a certain way about things,and that may not be
the accurate way to feel in termsof coming from a loving position,
but we're so used to doing it this wayor that way, because our mothers did that,
or our ancestors did that,or our community did that,

(45:13):
that we lose sight of what we knowis a loving position.
And often it just takes 1 or 2
people to like, break the way open.
Yes. Right.
So you're used to doing thingsa certain way.
It just takes 1 or 2 peoplewho are willing to step out
of that comfort zone for you to be like,okay, maybe.

(45:34):
Yeah. Right.
Yeah.
So it's important individual actions
and decisions we makehave a lot more power than we realize.
I think so, and I think we're all lookingnow to all of these different agencies
that operate in the United States,waiting for that one person
to kind of establish their opinionon what they know is,

(45:58):
which is correct,is strong, is right for the country.
We're just waiting. For a couple of.
Those people, at least.
Maybe this is my sort of fantasy slashhope in that would do what you're saying.
Okay, so this person finally
I can take a sigh of relief.
They're they're speaking out,they're challenging what's going on.

(46:21):
And then hopefully more will fall in line.
Do you think that's going to happen?
I think so, but I don't think we can.
It's interesting what you were saying.
It made me think of a conversationthat I was having about political leaders
in this moment.
There are political leadersthat are poised to do this things.
It's on us to ask it of them.
It's on our it's on communitiesto make demands

(46:45):
and requestsfrom the people who we put in office.
So I think if you're going to show upand vote, it's great.
We should all do it.
But that's just the first step,
because after that you have to ask themfor what you want.
You have.
So we can't just vote and say,this person made this speech.

(47:06):
And so I know this is what he'sgoing to do or she's going to do.
I think the next step isyou got to organize as a community.
You got to send letters, calls, you know,
do office visits, work with organizationsthat are doing
work, campaigning aroundmaking demands of political leaders?
So, yes, we need those that one personor those individuals

(47:31):
to take those first steps,but we ought to be in the background.
Supporting. That 100%.
Yeah, that makes sense.
And I think that activismas individuals is
is really required.
Like that
is part of who we need to be as Americansand certainly in other countries too.
But and I don't think it issomething that goes without saying.

(47:54):
I think you're right.
A lot of people think, okay,I've done this big job.
I voted, so at my response, I'm done.
And the rest of it'sgoing to take care of itself.
The chips fall where they mayand and we'll deal with it.
But I think that activism,whatever that means,
but just taking part,whatever activism means to you.

(48:15):
Is lifelong 100%.
Life is hard.
It's complicated.
People have a lot going on.
So I, I, you know,this doesn't have to be some great project
where you devote hours and hoursunless you want to write.
So I get how we can just get completelyabsorbed into our daily

(48:37):
just making it through the day work,family obligations, everything right.
But those steps that we take affectall of that in the long run.
It may not be like a day to day thing,or if I don't like,
take action on this issue today,something's going to happen.
But if you consistently don't do anythingthat's going to affect

(48:59):
all the things that you'rejuggling on a daily basis in the long run.
Yeah. So that'sI think the connection we have to make.
But you're right, it could be it doesn'thave to consume hours of every day.
But I do feel like we are all
as much as we can
be obligated to do a little bit at least.
But there are.
I've heard a lot in the news abouthow some politicians are backing away

(49:22):
from community meetingsbecause they don't want to hear
what their community has to say.
How does a community then wrangle thatmean, gosh.
This is a shame,but I think you as community member
have to continue to push themwhat their phone lines.
Talk to the mediaabout what it's like to have
your representativenot want to meet with you.

(49:43):
It's it's shameful.
And I think they know that it is shameful.
They know that
the politicians who are doing this
campaign financing aside,they're going to need those votes.
So at some point they're goingto have to come to the table.
But if you back off and they're alreadybacking off like nothing will happen.

(50:04):
I feel like there's almost,
a sense of desperationwith some of our representatives.
Like, I just got to get throughthis moment here.
I can't I can't speak my mind.
I can't do anything.I can't support you people.
So I'm just not going to talk to youpeople.
I'm going to make up for it later.
But, Cynthia,why can't they talk about things?

(50:25):
Right?
And it all has to do with this completemess we've gotten ourselves
into with money and politics, right?
There is no reason that an electedofficial
can't have an honest conversationabout any issue with their constituents,
besides the fact that they're goingto upset

(50:47):
political donors for the most part,
maybe the party as a wholeand their agenda.
But this whole issue of moneyand politics, until we address that,
I don't think we can get to a true
place of just human
to human connectionwithin the political system.

(51:10):
It seems like like it or not, in people.
Many people start out with this
wonderful goalof going into politics or going into
whatever they go into with the ideathat they're going to do
something to better the system, betterhumanity, better communities,

(51:30):
and they eventually get to a placewhere they need
financial supportin order to have their message heard.
And then their message begins to change.
Yeah, I think you just haveto ask yourself, at what cost, right?
We need people who are striving
for change, fighting fromthe outside, but we also need

(51:54):
folks fighting from the inside of systems.
But in order to do that,you do have to survive.
But the cost of that survival shouldn't be
giving up on the principlesthat are needed at the moment.
The really
important principles that are neededand values that are needed at the moment.
And I think we have gotten to a place

(52:15):
where a lot of political leaders
can't have that survival like lastif they take these kind of values
based stances, unfortunately,some of them can, and some of them are,
but like so the cost to me isn't worth it.
The cost of not standing up for somethingthat's truly

(52:36):
right in order so you can hold officefor another four years.
What is the good of holding officeif you can't do any good.
Right?
If for another four yearsyou can't stand up for what you know.
It's just the job done. Yeah, right.
And I'm not lockedknocking financial survivor.
But there's an ethical question therethat I'm sure you have to ask yourself.

(52:58):
So you deal with that ethical questiona lot in your pursuits.
And do youI mean, you're you're in a world
where you're trying to help usfigure out what is unjust and help
those who have suffered injusticecome to terms with it.
Do away with it.

(53:19):
How do you see the people on both endsrelating to you?
Do you find the people who you're sortof, let's say,
fighting against, understand
in a heartfelt waythat what you're attempting to do
has value, but they can't support itbecause they're fearful of something else.

(53:40):
Or do you find that
in some of these instances, peoplejust think you're you're nuts
and that what you're doing is so far offbase they just can't even go there?
And then on the other end,do those people that you're helping
understand the value of what you're doing?
It's it's a combinationand depends on the campaign.
It depends on the ask.

(54:01):
It depends on who are making the ask.
It depends on
what pieces of the campaignyou have in place.
So even somebody who disagrees with you.
But we've played our hand right.
And they feel like they haveno other option but to acquiesce.
They will.
Politics can be that sort of a game.

(54:23):
I see.
And to acquiesce meansto give you the opportunity to pursue
whatever rights you're pursuing.
Right?
That's what I mean,to acquiesce to your demands.
Yes. Right.
But there are situations wherewe may not have enough political power.
We haven't cross all of our T'sand daughter, all of our eyes.
And so a person who may not agree with you

(54:45):
sees that they don'treally have to do what you're asking.
So the organizing pieceand all of this is very important.
So organizing the communityto make us organizing your messaging,
organizing political pressure,
you know, all of these thingsmedia campaigns, all of these things

(55:05):
have to kind of bein play for the major wins to happen.
I see.
So, for example, I know that you weredealing with the death penalty
in certain states, Maryland.
And how did you prepare for that
to be to become an issuethat could be heard?

(55:26):
I came to the tableten years after the campaign
was initially created,and we won that year,
but the work had continued for ten yearsbefore we I was at the NAACP.
At that point.
I was the headof the criminal justice program,
so I ran our organizations campaign

(55:46):
to fight the death penalty in Marylandto help end it.
I was going for a votebefore the legislature,
and the problem that they had run intowas the fact
that they didn't have enough votes
from the black legislators.
And so make sensethat the NAACP would step in.

(56:08):
So we we came inand we worked with all the partners,
some of whom had been at the tablefor a very long time.
We designed a legislative campaign.
So kind of trackingwho's said they're going to vote
which way on this issue,we had to organize the community.
We had to bring the communityto the table, so to say.

(56:29):
So hold kind of awarenessraising campaigns around what the death
penalty is, the discriminatory impact,
the ineffectiveness as a deterrent.
The fact is that it's so much morecostly than life imprisonment.
We worked with peoplewho had been wrongfully accused

(56:49):
and placed and convictedand placed on death row.
So exonerees these came to speak about,you know, their wrongful convictions.
We had, murdervictim families come and advocate,
which was probably one of the most kindof deeply moving pieces of this.
In addition to the exonerees stories,these personal stories really matter.

(57:11):
In these campaigns, I can.
Imagine, again,it comes down to the individual.
It does. And they came to the table.
They said,nothing will bring my loved one back.
Do not do this in my name.
And I can't tell you all the legislatorsthat got up and voted
to abolish the death penalty, citing
the stories of these murdervictim's family members. So.

(57:32):
And then we had a big media campaignto get this kind of issue in the media.
We did some polling aroundwhat the messaging should be.
So it turns out, as you know,you might know that if you
the results can be different,if you just ask people
whether they agree with the death penaltyor not, versus if you say, do you agree

(57:54):
with the death penalty or life in prisonwithout the possibility of parole?
And then the the view often shifts, right?
Because
at this point youalso provided education on all the ways.
So the death penalty is not effective.It's costly.
It risks innocent lives.
It's discriminatory. All.
So then that becamea winning campaign for us.

(58:17):
But it was it was a long road.
We got in towards the endand we got in to kind of shift a community
and shift kind of some of the voteson the legislature.
And we were very well poised to do itat that point.
That's fantastic. Thank you.
It's encouraging to to thinkthat you can shift you can have a mindset.

(58:43):
As difficult as it seems these days. Yes.
I still believe.
So. To do that work though,your organization
had to have a lot of funding.
I mean, the research,the community meetings and is that
just a pool of funds that were availableto the organization at large?

(59:04):
And some went to your program,some went to others?
Yeah. I mean.
You weren't campaigning.
It was.
We were.
But so what happens at that point?
I believe the NAACP has developeda very strong C4 arm.
But we were mostly operatingthrough the C3.
So any lobbying we did.
What does that mean, C4 or.
C3? You can do lobbying on specific bills.

(59:27):
C4, C3 is just an advocacy organizationthat can advocate on issues,
but you can't say, you know, voteyes on this bill
or no on this bill or, you know,you can talk to issues.
This is a very kind of broad.
There's a lot more like complicateddetails involved in it.
So yeah, we did campaignwith legislators often

(59:48):
we had to be invited to speak on an issueand we couldn't say a bill number.
But if you're invited to talkabout the issue of death penalty,
you can very easily go and talk aboutthis is these are the facts.
And how do they know to invite you?
We had contacts with them.
This white community organized.
We had like a regional directorat the NAACP, whose job it was

(01:00:08):
to be in touch with the legislators andkind of speak to them about our issues,
not about bills, but about like,these are our priority issues.
These are the campaigns we're working onand the funding came from,
you know,mostly from philanthropic entities.
So foundations,mostly private foundations.
Every organization is set up differently.
So often there is a pool of general fundsthat can be used.

(01:00:30):
But for me,
a lot of the work that I've donehas required like project specific funds.
So getting donations from a large funder
to do anti-death penalty work. Right.
There's also likecommunications team was involved.
So they had their own funding.
So comes from a variety of places.
But it is a big issuein getting this work done

(01:00:51):
because it doesrequire a lot of funding. Yes.
When when you're reaching out for fundingto some of these private organizations
or foundations,are you looking for foundations
that that seem to message in a waythat makes you feel they'll be receptive?
Often folks in the advocacy field knowwhich foundations are more likely to fund,

(01:01:12):
or at the very least, are alignedin their approach to this work,
and which are not sometimespeople can be persuaded.
It depends on, you know, the prioritiesthat their boards set for them as well.
It must take a lot of effort to design
a questionnaire that is unbiased.

(01:01:33):
I mean, you you have something you wantto say, something that you want to pass,
but still you have to be completely fairin the way you ask the questions.
Isn't that hard? It's hard. And we didn't.
We know the issue,but we hired experts who were actually
their jobis to design these surveys and polls,

(01:01:54):
and you convey to them the issuesthat you're working on and what you're
trying to get at, and they help youdesign those questions and test them.
Without them being biased.
It's amazing.
There's an industry for everything.
There is one thing that I thinkwould be great from our conversation
I didn't think about was just opening

(01:02:15):
eyes to peoplewho see an opportunity here,
because it sounds like we need thousandsof thousands of people to be doing work
similar to what you're doingor in support of what you're doing.
Yeah.
Is it a field that needs a lot of help?
It is.
There's a lot of great peopledoing great work.

(01:02:35):
I think what we need right now,we can never have enough people helping.
So that's always a need.
We need the funders and the foundation
and the philanthropiststo really step up and stay steadfast
and even increase their supportfor this work.
Given all the attacks
and all the rollbacks that are happeningin the in the field, we need some courage.

(01:02:58):
There has that level of couragelowered a little bit, a little.
I think it has a lot to
do with various reasonsdepending on the different entities,
but there's also so much happeningthat which fire do you put out?
Yes. Right.
So I think a lot of organizationsare doing some strategizing around okay.

(01:03:19):
At the current moment,
what are the prioritiesthat we're either working on or funding.
Right. Or standing back?
And I think that argument that I madeearlier about taking a principle stance
like self-preservation,I guess, is important, although I believe
certain things, hopefully we don't have toare worth dying for.
But self-preservationfor the sake of status or money or power

(01:03:46):
is, is, to me,
not the appropriatekind of stance to take at this moment.
Right. So we need courage.
We need big foundations,big law firms to not fold the minute
they hear some sort of fearinducing message coming at them.
Or so we need that courage on that level.

(01:04:07):
And then, of course, the advocacy fieldalso needs to be courageous.
The risks are greater now.
The fear is definitely greater.
People don't knowif they can rely on due process anymore.
People don't know if a judge can bearrested for doing her job, for example,
or because of a social media postcriticizing the government.

(01:04:27):
They're goingto get detained at the border.
So there's there's a fear,but I think we all have to kind of accept
of a level of riskif we want to stay relevant in this field.
Yes, I think so.
And a level of risk as individuals, it'ssuper important.
It's amazing how much is swirling around,you know, each and every day

(01:04:50):
something comes up that perhapsyou could never have even conceived of.
That is now another thing
that in your head, in your heart,you have to contend with individually.
And how do you do that?
Do you do you find a waythat's just sort of self-soothing?
You convince yourself of this or that oror buy into it, or step away from it.
I mean, I think that that commitment towhat is just

(01:05:14):
now is so important and, and
so much more
potent thanit's than it's ever been in my lifetime.
And I've lived a long time
and it's, you know, I think we all have tolook inward each and every day.
What can I do?
What do I feel about what's going on?
Does it feel okay to me?

(01:05:35):
Is this the right thing?
Is it okay with me that these law firmsare doing what they're doing and giving up
what they know is right, what they whatthey've learned, why they became lawyers?
Is that okay?
Do I get their point or don't I?
And how do Ihow do I go about making what I know
or believe to be true known?

(01:05:57):
How do I become part of a communitythat speaks up and understands that part
of being a human means that you haveto risk occasionally for the greater good?
Yeah, and it's not easy.
You know, just lookingeven at my own circle of friends who,
you know,they're not in the advocacy space, but

(01:06:17):
the level of general fear and anxiety
that I see amongst like just peoplethat are who are surrounding me
is very different than at what it was.
And so it does take that self-reflection.
And I imagine you're seeing peoplefrom all walks of life
because you've immerse yourself

(01:06:38):
in these very different communities,which is as it should be.
And lovely.
I want to talk a little bitabout your organization, Avalon.
What what is that about?
Because you you've got a thinggoing. Yeah.
So I 2017 or 18,I set up a small kind of boutique

(01:07:00):
research and advocacy institute,sort of having worked in this space,
in this field for a while,I kind of wanted to spread my wings
and do things my wayand have a level of independence.
And was that designedso that you could make yourself available
to lots of different peopletrying to fight?

(01:07:22):
Yeah, different types of injustices.
So we provide strategic
research and technical supportto justice based organizations, often
working on criminal justice, juvenilejustice and racial justice issues.
So we provide research,strategic planning.
We've helped launch organizations.

(01:07:44):
A lot of the research and advocacy workI was doing
within big institutions priorto starting my own, institute.
I'm still doing for other organizations.
But the most important part of whyI wanted to step out
was not only to kind of spread my wingsand do things the way

(01:08:05):
I thought I wanted to do them.
But when I can, to bring in students
who are either about to graduate
or in graduate schoolor about to go to law school,
I've had a variety of different typesof students as research, assistants
and interns to help with these projects.

(01:08:27):
I thought back to what I would have wantedwhen I was younger,
in order to have a foot in the door,
in order to understand these issuesin a different way
from the perspective of the communitieswho are experiencing them in real time.
In order for, like my work
as a graduate student,to actually be feeding into a campaign

(01:08:50):
that's happening on the groundnow, that would have been so amazing.
I think this whole concept of buildingbridges, whether it's like for students,
but also for my own community,I'm Iranian-American,
I've spent a good chunk of my careertrying to convince people
in our communitythat that these issues also impact them.

(01:09:11):
It's been difficult, right?
I think people immigrate to move away
from challenges and communities,
settle
in and want to blend inand keep their head down,
and especially if you're comingfrom sort of an oppressive state,
you kind of just want to blend inand live your life.
Right.
And it's taken a while,I think, for, for our community,

(01:09:36):
especially the older generation,to realize just how much they have in
common with other immigrant communities,with black people in this country
and the ways that they are treatedsometimes,
you know, might happen
to them at the airports where it happensto, you know, black people on the streets,
you know,but the root of the problem is the same.
And we've had some tragic cases of,

(01:09:58):
white supremacists stabbing and killingyoung Iranian man or a young
Iranian man in Washington, DCwho was unarmed, being killed by police.
So there has been some relatively highprofile cases within the community.
And I've worked with those families.
But it's been a struggleto get our own community to realize

(01:10:18):
that they got to be in this fight,not just because it affects them,
but that's important,but because it's the right thing to do.
It is it was more challenging before,but as a newer generation
kind of comes to the fold and startsbeing engaged and involved.
And folks who grew up here and kind of sawthese issues in a way that I think

(01:10:41):
the older generation that grew up in Irandidn't, there are a lot sense to it.
Yeah.
I suppose thosethat the older generation is perceived
the United States in a different waythan those people who grew up here
and are faced withwhat's going on for their entire lives.
Yeah. How old were youwhen you came to the United States?
I was almost ten.
And did you have an experience in Iran

(01:11:03):
that was completely differentthan your experience in the United States?
Let's say
the first ten yearsthat you were in the United States,
was that vastly differentthan the first ten years of your life?
Of course, you don't rememberall ten years of your first ten years.
I suppose.
Yeah, I remember a lot of it,but probably not the first few years.
Completely different worlds.

(01:11:24):
But for the
fact that we moved to Southern California,
I mean, now the community is much largerand we didn't move directly to LA,
which is where the majority of the Iranianpopulation was back then, still is.
But there's a lot more folksin Orange County, which is where we moved.
But we came therebecause my uncle was there.
And, you know,
immigration patterns, usuallyif you can go to where you have people.

(01:11:46):
Yes, there wasthere were some Iranians around us,
but for the most part,everything was different.
You know, I was a young girl anda religious minority growing up in Iran.
For people who don't know the politicsthere, that's like a double whammy.
It's like being like minority twice over.
And even as a young girl,you could feel that.

(01:12:09):
No, that.
It was a lot of confusion and anger,though it wasn't.
I think it has a lot to do withwhy I do this work.
I couldn't understand.
I mean, of course we kind of sawI was young, but we
we knew there was a war, especiallywhen the bombs started getting to
to Tehran, which is where we lived.
So that was one piece of the turmoil.

(01:12:30):
But the revolution and the and the kind of
silencing of free speech,getting rid of equality,
women's rights kind ofbeing completely swept under the rug.
And that shift happenedwhile you were living there.
Yeah.
So all of a sudden I was livinga very different life than my boy cousins.

(01:12:51):
For example,I went to school with all girls.
I actually was afraid to talk to boyswhen I moved to the US because I just
except for my cousins, we didn't interact
with like in public settingswith other boys, you know?
And then I had to wear a hijab and covermy, my hair and my body
when I went outside of the houseand I couldn't

(01:13:12):
like it just didn't make sense to mewhy this shift was happening.
And I know the adultsprobably talk to us about it,
but it justit was confusing to a young kid.
And my aunt has the story of mecoming home from school one day.
She has three boys. Backthen there was two of them.
And were you like 8 or 9 or.
I was probably about 7 or 8.

(01:13:35):
And my boy
cousins are a few years older than me,and they always got to do the cool things.
I was the first girl,and I felt so left out.
And then here we are.
And now I have to even dress differently.
Like they can wear whatever they want.
I have to wear all the stuff because ofI don't understand why I have.
So I came home from schoolone day and I ripped off my head scarf

(01:13:58):
and I threw it on the groundand I said, I don't understand why
I have to wear this,and your sons don't have to wear a turban.
Which to
this day I think is a very fair argument.
And I don't know what she offered
up for youis something that doesn't just to.
But I was really, really angryand had a lot of angst

(01:14:20):
about my experiencesthrough that time in Iran.
A lot of confusion, a lot of anger about
differential treatment of of,
boys and girls.
And I carried that with methrough my adolescence.
I had a lot of anger aroundlike, inequality issues.
And I think the reason I was so drawnto working in this space,

(01:14:45):
I didn't think I would do itin the criminal justice setting.
But that's what called out to meis because
I just really expected thingsto be different here,
and I knew what it felt liketo be marginalized.
I had this gut feeling,even though I didn't have, like,
all the brain development, tomake full sense of it when I was younger.

(01:15:06):
But it was in your bones. I mean, it was.
You'd been affected. Yeah.
And so when, when I kind of learnedabout the history of how change
was made here in Americafor the better civil rights movement,
all the improvements we've hadthrough the years and how it's possible.
Because there have been those.
Yeah, yeah, an amazing amount of positivethings that have occurred right.

(01:15:29):
How advocating for change back inmy country might have been,
you know, land people in prison,but here you can do that.
I think that's that'swhy I was so drawn to this field.
And I think the gut reaction of just like,this is not fair.
This is not just is always still there.
Yeah.
But now I have like, tools.

(01:15:50):
And then when you were here and
you shifted
into sort of American view of things,was that, you know, another
jolt because you, you'd been this sortof free young woman and then you weren't.
And now here you are in the United States,
when there was not this separationbetween men and women.

(01:16:10):
And yeah, I was it was hard.
I was like I said,I was afraid to talk to boys,
you know, I was I was becoming a teenagerand, you know, you go through all these
like socialization and liking boys andgrowing up, but it just always felt odd.
It took a long time for that to normalizefor me because it was so taboo.

(01:16:31):
Yeah.
What a lot of information for parents
to have to help their children sortthrough things like that.
I mean, it's it'skind of a more than unwieldy task.
It's not something that as parents,you can prepare yourself to deal with.
I really have empathy forfor people like your parents

(01:16:54):
who were put in this positionof having to do what so
good for their children,the best thing for themselves,
even, let's say,and then trying to explain it all.
Yeah, it was hard.
I don't envy the situationthey were in, but I'm very grateful.
I'm sure.
And is your familymostly in the United States?

(01:17:16):
Yeah, almost all of my family is nowin the in the U.S..
I have
a coupleof aunts and uncles, some friends,
but over the years everyone has left.
It's quite sad.
It is. It's sad.
And Los Angeles, I think, continues to bethe largest community in this borough.

(01:17:36):
Yeah, yeah.
So in a way, it feels like home sometimes.
But I still miss I still miss Iran.
I can't imaginewhat that really feels like.
And I guess none of us can unlesswe've been through similar circumstances.
Well, again, I thank you for what you do,
and thank you for knowing

(01:17:57):
in your heart what is right for humanityand coming to it
as an individual who knowsshe has to stand up for that.
I want us all to be ableto have that kind of courage.
And I think talking with youdefinitely helps us get there.
Definitely.
Oh, thank youand thank you for what you do as well.

(01:18:17):
I think, like I said in the beginning,
these types of conversationsthat are on the human level
and kind of rip away all the other stuffis what, you know, it's what's needed now.
I think so, and I think if we striveto look deep in ourselves, as you said,
and find the thing that we knowis the truth and operate from that,

(01:18:41):
there's a huge amount of goodfeeling that comes from that,
a huge amount to know that you're living
the truth is just so valuable.
Yeah, I think so.
So thank you for doing it. Of course.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening and watching.
And it's been so interestingto speak today with our wonderful guest.

(01:19:05):
And hopefully we can find outmore information about her actually,
is there a way that people can find outabout what you're doing?
Yeah.
I’m on social media.
They can also go to my website.
www.avaloninstitute.com.
Thank you, thank you.
And follow us and listen to usand tell us what you think.