April 29, 2025 • 38 mins
What happens when grief intersects with identity? In this powerful episode, memoir writer Kelly Wilk takes us deep into her experience as a queer widow, revealing layers of complexity that many grievers never have to face. After losing her wife Kara when she was just 34, Kelly found herself navigating not only overwhelming grief but also shifting social dynamics and questions about who she was without her partner. She shares candidly about how being part of the queer community adds unique dimensions to grief.
Through her writing, Kelly created "Captain Grief" – a character who embodied her anger and gave her someone to blame when there was no one to blame. This creative approach to processing loss eventually led to a profound transformation she compares to a butterfly in a cocoon: "She dissolves, she unforms, she breaks down in the most complete sense of the word... And when she steps out into the world once again, she is new."
Whether you're part of the LGBTQ+ community or simply seeking to better support grieving loved ones, Kelly's insights offer a compassionate window into the complex interaction between identity and loss. Her story reminds us that while grief itself may be universal, our paths through it are shaped by who we are and the communities to which we belong.
Contact:
www.asiliveandgrieve.com
info@asiliveandgrieve.com
Facebook: As I Live and Grieve
Instagram: @asiliveandgrieve
YouTube: asiliveandgrieve
TikTok: @asiliveandgrieve
To contact Kelly:
Website: The High-Flying Adventures of Captain Grief - Grief is messy...own it!
Facebook: The High-Flying Adventures of Captain Grief | Facebook
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Copyright 2020, by As I Live and Grieve
The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to as I Live and Grieve, a podcast that tells
the truth about how hard thisis.
We're glad you joined us today.
We know how hard it is to losesomeone you love and how
well-intentioned friends andfamily try so hard to comfort us
.
We created this podcast toprovide you with comfort,
knowledge and support.
We are grief advocates, notprofessionals, not licensed
(00:24):
therapists.
We are you, not professionals,not licensed therapists.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
We are you.
Hi everyone, welcome back againto another episode of as I Live
in Grief.
I tell you probably everysingle time, so I'm sorry if I'm
saying the same thing over andover and over again, but I mean
it from the bottom of my heart.
I so appreciate y'all listening.
We have a joke about y'allbecause I lived in the South for
10 years so I can claim y'all,even though I'm a Yankee now.
(00:49):
But I'm just so grateful for it.
And I know you're scatteredaround the world.
And the other thing I do kindof teasingly is saying to
everybody if you know anybodytraveling to the North or South
Pole, tell them to get on Wi-Fiand download an episode of my
podcast, because I look at allthe different countries that are
represented and I don't haveeither of those continents yet.
(01:10):
I have every other continentexcept those two.
So just help me out that way ifyou would show a little support
, show a little love with me.
Today is yet another greatguest.
You know Our paths keepcrossing and I just love it
because I learn as much from ourguests as I think they get out
of the podcast and maybe, asyour listeners do too, it's
(01:33):
helped me heal immensely Today.
Here is Kelly Wilk.
Hi, kelly, thanks for joiningme, thank you so much for having
me back.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I was overjoyed when I saw you at Camp Widow last
November.
I know, wasn't that fun, wasn't?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
that fun, it was such a great reconnection and I love
when that happens and it reallyreinforces for me the whole
concept of networking.
You know, because sometimes youjust don't know when you're
going to run across somebody asecond time and when you do it
it's such a treat.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Maybe we shouldn't have been surprised.
I mean the way that the lifewas.
I mean you know, the way thatlife was going at that point for
me, I was like god, someonejust give me a tea I know, but I
knew you lived in that city yep, yeah, and the grief people,
the widows and widowers are ourpeople.
So really you know our causeand anybody who knows grief.
(02:26):
I've told them about Camp Widowand they've known about it as
well, and I am hoping to presentnext uh, next widow, camp Widow
.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Oh, that would be super.
That would be super if you did.
That would be super.
More time, um, I know, I know,to get us started.
Uh, would you first remind ourlisteners who is Kelly?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Will?
Oh my gosh, what an interestingquestion.
Sometimes I don't know.
It changes day to day, that'sfair I mean, I became a widow
when I was 34, which sucked.
I lost my dad when I was 19,and that wasn't so great.
I lost my dad when I was 19,and that wasn't so great.
(03:07):
But I'm also a memoir writerand I have used memoir writing
my whole life.
To process those kind of thingsI need creativity.
I kind of live and breathe init and it comes out of my pores.
So it's just natural when I runinto a crisis, like being
diagnosed with fibro when I was12.
(03:28):
, I write my way.
I psychologically am able towrite my way through it, to
process it, and that has justnaturally led me into memoir and
into poetry and personal essays.
And when my wife died, heradage was you always have the
choice to laugh.
So of course I did a blogcalled the High Flying
(03:50):
Adventures of Captain Grief,because I was pissed and I
needed someone to yell at.
And I needed somebody to be thebad guy and she was the best
thing that came into my life outof grief and out of losing my
wife, because she stepped in andjust took pot shots at me for a
(04:14):
year until I stood up andrealized that I was her.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
And she had all the things that.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
I was needing to say how do I survive this?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Right, that's succinct, and look at you now.
Okay.
So the focus today are some ofthe differences in grief for
various people, and this podcasthas established numerous times
that grief is different foreveryone and each incident of
grief for that same person isalso different.
Of the four major losses I have, every one was different.
(04:47):
Everyone was different.
The hardest, the most difficultwas the most recent the loss of
my husband, tom, and next monthwill be seven years Long time.
I still grieve him.
I still think about him justabout every day, just about
every day.
The big difference is that now,when I think about them, I
don't start crying.
Now, when I think about them, Iusually will smile, usually.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
There are exceptions to every rule.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
So one of my questions for you and you've
been kind enough to offer tocome on and be very candid, and
I know that you can only speakhow it has affected you,
impacted you, but you lost yourwife.
So you were in a same-sexmarriage.
How, or if, do you feel I'mtrying to get the right words
for the question here Do youfeel that who you are as a
(05:36):
person, your genderidentification, sexual
orientation, whichever spin youwant to put on it do you feel
that that made a difference forgrief in that particular
instance?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
I think it made a difference in how life
rearranged itself around thatgrief, because I was a queer
widow as opposed to just yourrun-of-the-mill widow, I guess
um yeah I mean, you know, yousaid you have a joke about y'all
.
Well, I have relatives in WestVirginia and I mean, for
(06:08):
instance, my aunt and my unclewill probably never listen to
this.
They went to my sister'swedding.
They would not come to mine.
And my mother was so angrybecause she said this is your
niece, your son or your brotheris dead and, yeah, I'm not even
sure what their religiousaffiliation is, but it hurt my
(06:31):
mom.
It hurt my mom because she losther husband when when she was
50.
Yeah, yeah, you know, and it'sjust, there's insensitivities,
all sorts of insensitivitiesaround, uh, people when they're
and you know, I've been guiltyof it too because it's not
comfortable, griefing and guiltis not comfortable and you deal
(06:53):
with it however you can in themoment.
But not coming to someone'swedding because they are
marrying a woman is the decision.
That's not an off-the-cuffremark, oh, definitely.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Definitely yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
And you know they didn't come to her funeral
either.
Yeah, I mean, that day was sucha haze.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, yeah, I know they are.
Yeah, mostly the memories Ihave of Tom's celebration of
life, if you will, are just theones that were really, really
notable, that either made me cryor made me just have my mouth
open, gaping in awe or somethingfunny.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Yeah, no one it's.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
So there may be some distinctions there.
But to expand it more, on thetopic of grief, defining grief
very simply as a response to aloss, finding grief very simply
as a response to a loss, I wouldhave to guess if you will or
say my perception would be thatif someone is in the LBGTQ plus
(07:56):
community I hope I say thatright because that's a lot of
letters- In the queer community.
Well, all right in the queercommunity.
If someone is in there, theysuffer grief.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Already.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Oh, their life Around so many different issues,
particularly if you're trans.
Before they even get to thatmajor event of a death of
someone you love.
They have gone through so muchgrief, so what type of issues
might someone in the queercommunity face that would cause
(08:29):
them grief?
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Well, I think just because, for instance, the risk
of suicide is higher amongstqueer kids.
To begin with, if you'vealready got someone who is
dealing with depression, who isdealing with this or that or the
other thing, and they lose, itdoesn't even have to be their
(08:52):
spouse.
If somebody they love, if apartner or a friend is gay,
bashed and they die.
It's only if somebody whorespects your orientation and
your gender expression will theyexpress you.
So there's just more chancesfor people to say you don't
matter or why would I beinterested you?
(09:12):
know and I'm lucky I am, withthe exception of the one part of
my family that was not therefor me.
I've been very lucky with myfamily, but my challenge is that
I grew up, went to an all-girlsschool for 13 years and for 13
years looked in the mirror andsaw a straight woman, so I kind
(09:35):
of had to exfoliate a lot ofthings.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Was it a case of you didn't know what you didn't know
?
I think I knew.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
You think?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
I knew.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
But it was interesting because I didn't
really know until after my daddied and suddenly it became much
more important to come out andto deal with that rather than to
deal with the death of myfather.
So I just kind of put a cap onthat and worried about trying to
(10:07):
come out and it did not workand it just blew up in my face
and I told I did tell my mom and, to be fair, she was grieving
and she couldn't handle anythingand she gave me the whole it's
a phase.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, what?
Well, you know, I, again, again, I can only imagine, because
I've not gone through thatexperience.
Well, I can't say thatcompletely, because my younger
daughter, kelly, is in a samesex relationship With her.
(11:09):
It was never a.
She never came out to me.
Because I, because they havemade a conscious decision and
I'm looking for you to say, yeah, kathy, that's spot on.
Or, kathy, you're fully cracked.
They had a life they thoughtthey were going to live and
maybe it's one kind of centeredaround things that they had been
told by their parents or thingsthey had experienced.
Like maybe for a young girl,you know, they would be bought
(11:32):
dresses all the time when youwent to the store, when what
they really wanted to wear waspants and a tailored shirt.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
So that's why I could hide more, because I had my
femininity.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
I was a very feminine .
Speaker 3 (11:43):
I've always been this biggest unicorn swirly glitter
girl.
So it kind of made me visibleto myself, and it was only when
I started to register thehomophobic comments around me
that I realized I had a reactionto it and I felt uncomfortable,
right, and this happened inhigh school.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
And do those comments kind of sorta equate with those
inane comments we get afterlosing?
Speaker 3 (12:12):
someone like they're in a better place.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Not really is it the same type or?
Speaker 3 (12:16):
not.
I was terrified because I feltlike.
I was standing in the kitchenand it was a friend's parent
that made this comment.
So all of a sudden I was likedeer in a headlight.
I'm not safe Right now.
I'm fearing for my life.
And I wasn't literally fearingfor my life, but all of a sudden
(12:37):
it was.
When you go to, I'm fine to getout, All right.
So you felt threatened.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yes, absolutely so.
The difference, then, might befear, absolute fear, or hate,
yeah, hate.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Because whenever you come out, it's a risk.
I mean whenever you tell.
If you tell someone like me ifyou have a disability, if you're
ADHD, if you have fibro, ifyou're grieving grief is an
invisible disability I can tellyou that so you risk telling
someone that because they willperhaps change their opinion of
you.
However, if you come out andsomeone has an absolute problem
(13:17):
with your orientation, you willknow and and that bridge will be
burned and you don't know whenthat's going to happen.
So I have not been attacked,but I've had friends that have
been my girl friends, butchfriends, that have been punched
in the face on the streetcar onthe day of kara's funeral.
(13:41):
Oh yeah, it's just that funeral, it's just that extra layer of
shit that you have to deal withon top, and they didn't tell me
that this happened because theydidn't want to upset me.
But she was attacked and it'slike you don't.
If you are visibly queer, thatmakes you more of a target.
(14:03):
I am less of a target.
I can pass, but with Visiblyqueer Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
I like that phrase because that really signifies
and I can relate to that.
You know I can think of peopleI know that I would say are
visibly queer and others thatjust you know you wouldn't know
unless you knew.
But it just seems to me thatthe word hate keeps coming back
to me, that the things that aresaid in those instances are from
(14:35):
the basis of hate, you know, aswell as from the basis of
ignorance.
Yeah, you know both.
And those two together are.
Are they're lethal?
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, if someone feels threatened if they feel
backed into a corner, as, as youknow, um, even if they're not
being provoked, if just if, justthe fact of me or the fact of
my partner, like um, there's apart in this book where I talk
about care, called it the look.
She called it the.
What is that look?
(15:09):
And?
And one day we were goingoutside of Toronto to get
camping gear at like a at acamping store warehouse, and we
were late.
So we walked down a line ofpeople that were all lined up to
get their camping gear and wegot the what does that look
about?
A hundred times in a row,because we were outside the city
(15:31):
.
I was absolutely livid and Kara, who had been living in the
body that she was living in youknow, for 32 years at that point
just went Right.
I'm like no, you should be madat this.
She's like what am I going todo?
This is me, and before I wasnot me, I was punching walls.
It is better if I am me.
(15:52):
But the other thing is, with meholding her hand, not only is
she visibly queer, I'm visiblyclear, you are also sure you
know so that and when you comeout just to come back to when
you're grieving, or when you're,when you're accepting a
physical disability or somethinglike that, it's it's about you
(16:14):
changing your idyllic image ofyourself.
And I was counseled in thislike we got grief material.
I think I told you when I want,when I went into the
Fibromyalgia Day program aboutgrief, because you grieve the
ideal image of yourself.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
You are not who you used to be.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
So you do that.
When it's grief, grief as well.
And when I grieved Kara, it'slike who am I?
Oh God.
I am now a single mom, I am nowa widow and I am surrounded by
a whole bunch of women who haveall risen up to help me.
But the dynamic is different,because all the people in my
(16:53):
group who are single are nowpotential partners.
Because I'm same-sex and I'vejust lost my wife.
That was confusing, right?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
yeah, confusing for you or confusing for them.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
I think everybody was pretty much up the shit because
they had lost Gara.
Honestly, yeah.
But, my walls were down, I washurting and I had people that
really helped and I had peoplethat made it complicated, which
(17:22):
was another layer that I had todeal with.
And then I was.
I was young and I suddenly hadall of these parents telling me
you should do this, you shoulddo that, so all of a sudden.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Were they?
Were they basing it on the factthat you were queer or not?
Was it just general advice thatyou would have gotten
regardless?
Speaker 3 (17:44):
General advice, but not only with the parents, but
also now with my social circle.
I was not very good at puttingdown boundaries and suddenly I
had to learn that I needed toput down boundaries to keep
myself safe.
And I never expected that Iwould have to do that with my
friends, Like that was totallyout of the blue can you clarify
(18:07):
that a little bit more?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
why would your friends your social support?
Speaker 3 (18:11):
because they could also have been their women.
They were also women, singlewomen were they coming on to you
?
No, but I think everybody hasthey just felt uncomfortable
because that this dynamicexactly Okay, the dynamic of who
I was changed because I did nothave a partner anymore.
So, I was now suddenly a singlelesbian widow with a whole bunch
(18:37):
of people around me, and I'mthinking I'm 34.
I have a huge life ahead of me.
How do I I don't know how tobelong to somebody else.
Yet I want to only be with thepeople that I'm already
comfortable with, because that'sall I can handle right now.
But those relationships can getcomplicated because they're
(18:58):
trying to comfort me, they'retrying to spend time with me.
They trying, you know, and Ijust was just a big endless hole
of I need right now and okay,you have to stand up and and not
do that and put boundaries onrelationship yeah, I would say
that's something that is reallyunique.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Then, about grieving if you are in the queer
community, that that certainlyis easier to say than LBGT
Totally and I mean no disrespectat all, of course, but but that
sounds like it is somethingthat's totally unique that all
of a sudden, to give someone ahug might feel awkward.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
For example, what do you want from me?
What do I want from you?
Why is this different?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
yeah, oh, it's different because my, my wife,
died, like it just nobody, and,whether or not that was the
intention, there still could besome of those exactly.
So, yeah, I understand now.
That would be very verydifficult, exactly.
Very difficult.
Now, do you think that happensfor males that are part of the
queer community?
I don't know.
(20:10):
Or do you think that's uniqueto females?
I don't know.
I think generally women.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
I would suspect that it would happen more for women,
because women in a group aredifferent than men in a group.
Women are already all over eachother, like other like you know
we just are physical with eachother without a thought right.
Well, right right thatphysicality suddenly meant very
different things because, Karaleft a hole in everybody's world
(20:36):
and everybody was spinning outand just the fact that nobody
knew how she died, you know, andeverybody was just in shock and
just did the best that we could.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
But honestly it was awful, you know, and Was there a
point that things started toget better in that regard, that
you could be with your, yoursocial group and everything, and
felt more relaxed, didn't feelthat kind of unease it it felt?
Speaker 3 (21:03):
it actually felt a little bit better once it took
me about.
I guess I was six months and Istarted to date again and I felt
like everybody did a oh, she'staken care of you know, like
there's, there's no moreambiguity she's dating someone
(21:25):
Now.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
the intentions are clear.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Exactly.
There's not that awkwardquestion that people are saying,
and it's not like starting todate again after you've lost
your partner at a young age.
It's not hard enough to tellsomeone, like I told Kara's best
(21:47):
gay male friend.
He was the first one I toldthat I was dating and he says of
course you are.
I'm like thank you for nothaving a problem with this of
course you did he lost hispartner as well, you know he
figured he knew.
You know, and this is why beingwith your people is so much
easier because sometimes therehas to be so much explanation as
to why you're feeling the wayyou're feeling and how the
(22:10):
situation is different for youjust because it is.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
And do you feel at this point in your grief journey
and we all know that we'llprobably grieve for the rest of
our lives for that very specialsomeone Do you feel that there
are any issues related to yourgrieving now because you're in
the queer community?
Speaker 3 (22:29):
There were.
Yeah, because I mean when yousaid, when did things kind of
clear up and those kind ofthings.
Well, it was when a friend ofmine who was my first-year
university roommate was singletoo and was getting was getting
out of a of a long-termrelationship and it was kind of
in the same place.
I was Cause I look at death asthe same way as losing a partner
(22:52):
to divorce, except it's morecomplicated.
It's awful.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Well, you still, you still grieve it.
It's still a loss, exactly, butyou still get.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
You still have to contend with them not choosing
you not being with you but alsohaving you know, especially if
you have kids.
Um so my house was falling down, my, my house was literally
falling down and this friendsaid come and buy a house with
me.
I want to have a baby by myself.
We will co -parent.
So we did.
(23:20):
We bought a house together.
You know, my son and I lived onthe top floor of the triplex.
She lived in the middle and hada baby.
It was like what she, what shedecided was going to happen,
happened.
She's amazing, you know, justdetermined.
She's very specific, she's likethe manifesting master, Um, and
(23:41):
we've we've lived together nowfor like seven years.
But it was interesting becauseand I didn't notice this myself,
but I realized and I had toexplain to her look, I'm having,
(24:02):
I'm emo, I am having feelings,I'm having, and I think it's
because you don't realize thatme living with another woman is
completely different than youliving with a woman, Because to
you I have always been and stillam your roommate, but to me
this is a queer marriage withoutsex.
This is what it is, and I amgoing to have to take a step
(24:22):
back sometime because I'm stillgrieving.
I will always be grieving.
Yet I am doing the exact samethings with my roommate, raising
my children with my roommate.
Right Again, complication justkind of follows me, especially
when the pandemic hit and wewere both working from home.
(24:43):
I had the kids and she wasworking online and we had to
become a family.
We had you know, that was evenmore difficult for me.
It made her push back and itmade me go okay, I'm not going
to touch you, I'm just going todraw a line.
Very uncomfortable.
In the process of the pandemicand me doing a lot of
(25:04):
introspection, I dealt with alot of fear that I had around
men and I got time to look atthat and I realized it wasn't
that I was opposed to dating men, it was that I actually needed
to clear a lot of stuff and,being in isolation from everyone
, I've been dating men for thepast couple of years, like you
(25:26):
know.
I've realized that I am fluidand again my identity changed
and again I was worried abouttelling people.
Oh, guess what?
You know me, the lesbian writerneeds a new label.
Well, why do I need a new label?
Kelly hasn't changed.
That's the thing about labels.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
I don't like labels.
You know number one, it's justnot fair, but other people like
labels because they like todetermine who you are.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, but that doesn't allow you to change, but
when you are first thinkingabout it, the fear is there
Again.
The fear is because you'redoing it in reverse, right.
Yeah, how will?
my friends react?
How will my family, how willKara's family react?
Well, in the end you have tocome down to who the fuck cares.
But you have to get there.
It's, it's a, it's a hurdlethat you have to go over and it
(26:14):
sucks that we have to go to thisdegree of explanation when
we're just trying to beat right.
You know, it just adds thatlayer of complexity and
complication, especially whenother people are like I don't
get it.
I'm like you think I do.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, you know, it just is, itjust is.
So I want you to open your book.
I think you had something inyour book you wanted to share.
I do.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Well it's.
It's special to me because youdid and I didn't get to see the
presentation, but you talkedabout butterflies and whoops and
transformation and I havesomething that I wrote that was
really important to me aboutthat journal journal entry.
(27:18):
Okay, okay, there is more joythan there was.
When I look at myself, clearlyI see the me that belongs to
myself, as well as the me thatbelonged to you.
When I look at myself, I seethe life that is mine and the
life that I had with you, but ata distance which is getting
wider every day that you are nothere.
(27:40):
Sometimes I think it's amiracle that I can recognize
myself outside of a relationshipnot anymore.
Because for many years Ideveloped a sense of identity
and dependence on my partner.
For this reason the isolationhas been very healing, in that
painful, growing kind of way.
The only noise and turmoil Ihave to confront is my own.
(28:03):
Turning inwards has turned thenoise into music.
The singular melody has encasedme, clearing my space of
emotional debris so that I canwitness the change and
transformation in my life, stillsliding around under the
surface of my cocoon.
In here, my attention has beendrawn to a number of things,
(28:26):
external things I had no ideaabout or didn't fully appreciate
, that were a reflection of theinternal changes happening in me
and have yet to happen.
When I was young, my fatherbought me a butterfly net so we
could go down to the creek amongthe reeds and catch a monarch.
We had discussed the marvelousmigration patterns of this
butterfly and I was eager to bea part of their story, if only
(28:50):
as a momentary witness to theirlong journey south to Mexico.
My thoughts are caught up inthese splendidly orange-winged
beauties, the once threatenedspecies that was starting to
recover but is now back on theendangered species list.
Theirs is a lengthy process oftransformation.
The emergent miracle of theirlives has been a through-line in
(29:11):
my thoughts.
How do they do it?
How do they change from anunassuming life camouflaged in
the leaves to an enchantingcreature that can take to the
skies?
All of the answers lay in themystery of the cocoon.
When a baby begins to form, itis one cell the size of a poppy
(29:31):
seed, but when the yellow andwhite striped caterpillar forms
a shell around herself, she isalready something.
Where does she go Now?
I know she dissolves, sheunforms, she breaks down in the
most complete sense of the word.
She is no more and the magic oftime and life recreates her as
(29:53):
a miracle.
And when she steps out into theworld once again, she is new.
This is the combination ofbiology, instinct and faith that
creates and completes thismystery.
Once she shuts herself in, herbody slowly breaks down, bit by
bit, body part by body part,cell by cell and perhaps memory
(30:16):
by memory, to the state ofprimordial ooze.
It is the only way she canrebuild herself to commit to
this isolation and surrendereverything to the universe.
I've been asked to commit asimilar act of faith to spend a
year doing nothing but leteverything change, to release
(30:38):
everything I knew, kneweverything, I was sure about,
everything I was afraid of andeverything I was afraid would
never happen, in order totransform this life into a
beautiful new reincarnation ofitself.
And once I finally understoodthe importance, the urgency of
this process, I looked in themirror and said okay, I
(31:02):
understand, I'm ready to breakdown, that's great.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I love that.
I would have read that at thebeginning of my workshop.
Yes, it was, it was.
You know, that's fascinatingand you do have a way with words
.
Thank you, you're quiteeloquent.
I was glancing at the clockwhile you were reading and,
(31:28):
sadly, our time is coming to anend.
But before I actually wrap up,I want to turn the microphone
over to you, kelly, and let youspeak directly to the listeners.
Tell them again about your book, where they can get it, tell
them anything you'd like toabout if you have any events
coming up, workshops, whatever,how they can get in contact with
(31:49):
you, whatever you'd like toshare, and keep in mind that
your contact information and thename of the book will also be
in the podcast notes, so peopledon't have to run for a pencil.
Okay, good, so the floor isyours.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Okay, so you do not need a pencil, you do not need a
pen.
My website, which is goingthrough some changes right now
it's in a cocoon, it iswwwcaptangriefcom.
And, yes, captain Grief isstill alive and kicking and we
have current content there andthat is where I will put all of
(32:24):
my events that are coming up.
And if you're in Ontario, inthe GTA, I'm going to be having
a book launch, where it'll bethe same kind of format in terms
of reading books and sellingbooks.
But if you don't live nearby,you can just Google up amazonca
and look up the High FlyingAdventures of Captain Grief, and
(32:45):
the memoir is there inhardcover and paperback and
Kindle.
And I also have a Facebook groupcalled the High Flying
Adventures of Captain Grief, andthat is actually the original
space that I opened my blog onand there I put stupid stuff, I
put memes, I put resources, Ichat with people about loss.
(33:11):
So if you're looking for a kindof community, I highly
encourage you.
Please find us on Facebook andjoin us and join the
conversation, because everybodyneeds a space to grieve the way
that they need to grieve.
And thinking about booklaunches, I perhaps will do an
(33:31):
online book launch because I do.
What I want to do is to try andbe accessible to people as
possible.
You know what, particularly ifthey're queer, widow and
widowers.
You know because it's hardthing to find a space to grieve,
but when you're queer you wantto know that you're safe.
So mine is an absolutely safe,lgbtq, trans, positive, black
(33:54):
positive, latino positive,neurodivergent positive,
everything community, becauseeverybody is going through the
shit.
You know Everybody and needssupport.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yep, yep, grief sucks and grief is ugly.
There's no way around it, itjust is.
It just is.
We can continue forward on ourgrief journey, redefine
ourselves, be somebodycompletely different than the
person we were before and in mycalendar there's really only
(34:26):
before and after yeah, that's it, you know before time before
mom, after mom.
You know that's that's how mycalendar goes, but you know we
have to get through it.
And again, like I say manytimes times, we like to mention
self-care, and one of the bestways of taking care of yourself
is to surround yourself withlike-minded people, because they
(34:51):
will get you and especially ifyou're having a bad day, these
people will get you and theywill give you the space you need
.
They will give you the supportyou need because they understand
, and that's why this is soimportant to me.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
My friends, like I need, I know that I can say
Kathy, I'm having a really shitday and I won't have to do the
precursor of anything.
You, you know.
No, you get it, you're in myshoes.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
So yeah, it just, it just is yeah, even though you
know I haven't walked your exactpath, but we still have that
understanding that you gothrough stuff.
You need support.
So sometimes the best gift youcan give someone is just to
listen, because maybe all theyneed to do is verbalize it so
it's no longer spinning aroundin the brain.
(35:42):
Just, you know, get it out inthe air and release it.
It's a processing.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
It's the same for writing.
I have to write it, to processit, but I have to speak it, even
if it's just to myself, beforeI write it, just to hear it to
know that it's real to constructit again before I put it and I
commit it to you know, to paper,um.
But that's the other thing thatI would like to start doing.
I'd like to do them in person,but I can also.
I'm also considering doing mynarrative healing workshop for
(36:08):
your journey of grief, becausethe first time I did it, um, my
participant had actually losthis whole family in house fire,
his whole family in house fire.
So we did, I know, so we didsix weeks of him writing and
creating a comic book toencapsulate that six-week
journey of using creativity toprocess his loss.
(36:32):
And I can do.
I'm hoping to do this at campwidow, um, yeah.
And then I'm hoping to do thisat Camp Widow, nice, yeah.
And then I'm hoping to open,like physical classes, but just
like I'm hoping to reach a widercommunity online with my book
at some point I would love tohave a wider community for
online narrative healing foryour journey of loss.
(36:55):
So you know it will be on mywebsite.
So just you know, check in.
Lost.
So you know it'll all it willbe on my website.
So just you know, check in.
Um, I'm hoping to grow thatbecause this is what I have done
to be okay, you know, and ifother people have.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
I like that.
This is what I've done to beokay.
Yeah, Yep.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
That's kind of how it works.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
It really does.
So I really have to wrap it upat this point and tell everyone
take care of yourselves.
Thanks again for dialing us up,downloading us and listening
and catch us again next week aswe all continue to live and
grieve.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Thanks again, you're welcome, thank you thank you so
much for listening with us today.
Do you have a topic that you'dlike us to cover or do you have
a question from one of ourepisodes?
Please email us at info at as Ilive and grieve dot com and let
us know.
We hope you will find a momentto leave a review, send an email
(37:54):
and share with others.
Join us next time as wecontinue to live and grieve
together.
Welcome to as I Live and Grieve, a podcast that tells
the truth about how hard thisis.
We're glad you joined us today.
We know how hard it is to losesomeone you love and how
well-intentioned friends andfamily try so hard to comfort us
.
We created this podcast toprovide you with comfort,
knowledge and support.
We are grief advocates, notprofessionals, not licensed
(00:24):
therapists.
We are you, not professionals,not licensed therapists.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
We are you.
Hi everyone, welcome back againto another episode of as I Live
in Grief.
I tell you probably everysingle time, so I'm sorry if I'm
saying the same thing over andover and over again, but I mean
it from the bottom of my heart.
I so appreciate y'all listening.
We have a joke about y'allbecause I lived in the South for
10 years so I can claim y'all,even though I'm a Yankee now.
(00:49):
But I'm just so grateful for it.
And I know you're scatteredaround the world.
And the other thing I do kindof teasingly is saying to
everybody if you know anybodytraveling to the North or South
Pole, tell them to get on Wi-Fiand download an episode of my
podcast, because I look at allthe different countries that are
represented and I don't haveeither of those continents yet.
(01:10):
I have every other continentexcept those two.
So just help me out that way ifyou would show a little support
, show a little love with me.
Today is yet another greatguest.
You know Our paths keepcrossing and I just love it
because I learn as much from ourguests as I think they get out
of the podcast and maybe, asyour listeners do too, it's
(01:33):
helped me heal immensely Today.
Here is Kelly Wilk.
Hi, kelly, thanks for joiningme, thank you so much for having
me back.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I was overjoyed when I saw you at Camp Widow last
November.
I know, wasn't that fun, wasn't?
Speaker 2 (01:48):
that fun, it was such a great reconnection and I love
when that happens and it reallyreinforces for me the whole
concept of networking.
You know, because sometimes youjust don't know when you're
going to run across somebody asecond time and when you do it
it's such a treat.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Maybe we shouldn't have been surprised.
I mean the way that the lifewas.
I mean you know, the way thatlife was going at that point for
me, I was like god, someonejust give me a tea I know, but I
knew you lived in that city yep, yeah, and the grief people,
the widows and widowers are ourpeople.
So really you know our causeand anybody who knows grief.
(02:26):
I've told them about Camp Widowand they've known about it as
well, and I am hoping to presentnext uh, next widow, camp Widow
.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Oh, that would be super.
That would be super if you did.
That would be super.
More time, um, I know, I know,to get us started.
Uh, would you first remind ourlisteners who is Kelly?
Speaker 3 (02:47):
Will?
Oh my gosh, what an interestingquestion.
Sometimes I don't know.
It changes day to day, that'sfair I mean, I became a widow
when I was 34, which sucked.
I lost my dad when I was 19,and that wasn't so great.
I lost my dad when I was 19,and that wasn't so great.
(03:07):
But I'm also a memoir writerand I have used memoir writing
my whole life.
To process those kind of thingsI need creativity.
I kind of live and breathe init and it comes out of my pores.
So it's just natural when I runinto a crisis, like being
diagnosed with fibro when I was12.
(03:28):
, I write my way.
I psychologically am able towrite my way through it, to
process it, and that has justnaturally led me into memoir and
into poetry and personal essays.
And when my wife died, heradage was you always have the
choice to laugh.
So of course I did a blogcalled the High Flying
(03:50):
Adventures of Captain Grief,because I was pissed and I
needed someone to yell at.
And I needed somebody to be thebad guy and she was the best
thing that came into my life outof grief and out of losing my
wife, because she stepped in andjust took pot shots at me for a
(04:14):
year until I stood up andrealized that I was her.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
And she had all the things that.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
I was needing to say how do I survive this?
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Right, that's succinct, and look at you now.
Okay.
So the focus today are some ofthe differences in grief for
various people, and this podcasthas established numerous times
that grief is different foreveryone and each incident of
grief for that same person isalso different.
Of the four major losses I have, every one was different.
(04:47):
Everyone was different.
The hardest, the most difficultwas the most recent the loss of
my husband, tom, and next monthwill be seven years Long time.
I still grieve him.
I still think about him justabout every day, just about
every day.
The big difference is that now,when I think about them, I
don't start crying.
Now, when I think about them, Iusually will smile, usually.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
There are exceptions to every rule.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
So one of my questions for you and you've
been kind enough to offer tocome on and be very candid, and
I know that you can only speakhow it has affected you,
impacted you, but you lost yourwife.
So you were in a same-sexmarriage.
How, or if, do you feel I'mtrying to get the right words
for the question here Do youfeel that who you are as a
(05:36):
person, your genderidentification, sexual
orientation, whichever spin youwant to put on it do you feel
that that made a difference forgrief in that particular
instance?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
I think it made a difference in how life
rearranged itself around thatgrief, because I was a queer
widow as opposed to just yourrun-of-the-mill widow, I guess
um yeah I mean, you know, yousaid you have a joke about y'all
.
Well, I have relatives in WestVirginia and I mean, for
(06:08):
instance, my aunt and my unclewill probably never listen to
this.
They went to my sister'swedding.
They would not come to mine.
And my mother was so angrybecause she said this is your
niece, your son or your brotheris dead and, yeah, I'm not even
sure what their religiousaffiliation is, but it hurt my
(06:31):
mom.
It hurt my mom because she losther husband when when she was
50.
Yeah, yeah, you know, and it'sjust, there's insensitivities,
all sorts of insensitivitiesaround, uh, people when they're
and you know, I've been guiltyof it too because it's not
comfortable, griefing and guiltis not comfortable and you deal
(06:53):
with it however you can in themoment.
But not coming to someone'swedding because they are
marrying a woman is the decision.
That's not an off-the-cuffremark, oh, definitely.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Definitely yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
And you know they didn't come to her funeral
either.
Yeah, I mean, that day was sucha haze.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, yeah, I know they are.
Yeah, mostly the memories Ihave of Tom's celebration of
life, if you will, are just theones that were really, really
notable, that either made me cryor made me just have my mouth
open, gaping in awe or somethingfunny.
Speaker 3 (07:30):
Yeah, no one it's.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
So there may be some distinctions there.
But to expand it more, on thetopic of grief, defining grief
very simply as a response to aloss, finding grief very simply
as a response to a loss, I wouldhave to guess if you will or
say my perception would be thatif someone is in the LBGTQ plus
(07:56):
community I hope I say thatright because that's a lot of
letters- In the queer community.
Well, all right in the queercommunity.
If someone is in there, theysuffer grief.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Already.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Oh, their life Around so many different issues,
particularly if you're trans.
Before they even get to thatmajor event of a death of
someone you love.
They have gone through so muchgrief, so what type of issues
might someone in the queercommunity face that would cause
(08:29):
them grief?
Speaker 3 (08:30):
Well, I think just because, for instance, the risk
of suicide is higher amongstqueer kids.
To begin with, if you'vealready got someone who is
dealing with depression, who isdealing with this or that or the
other thing, and they lose, itdoesn't even have to be their
(08:52):
spouse.
If somebody they love, if apartner or a friend is gay,
bashed and they die.
It's only if somebody whorespects your orientation and
your gender expression will theyexpress you.
So there's just more chancesfor people to say you don't
matter or why would I beinterested you?
(09:12):
know and I'm lucky I am, withthe exception of the one part of
my family that was not therefor me.
I've been very lucky with myfamily, but my challenge is that
I grew up, went to an all-girlsschool for 13 years and for 13
years looked in the mirror andsaw a straight woman, so I kind
(09:35):
of had to exfoliate a lot ofthings.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Was it a case of you didn't know what you didn't know
?
I think I knew.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
You think?
Speaker 2 (09:45):
I knew.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
But it was interesting because I didn't
really know until after my daddied and suddenly it became much
more important to come out andto deal with that rather than to
deal with the death of myfather.
So I just kind of put a cap onthat and worried about trying to
(10:07):
come out and it did not workand it just blew up in my face
and I told I did tell my mom and, to be fair, she was grieving
and she couldn't handle anythingand she gave me the whole it's
a phase.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah, what?
Well, you know, I, again, again, I can only imagine, because
I've not gone through thatexperience.
Well, I can't say thatcompletely, because my younger
daughter, kelly, is in a samesex relationship With her.
(11:09):
It was never a.
She never came out to me.
Because I, because they havemade a conscious decision and
I'm looking for you to say, yeah, kathy, that's spot on.
Or, kathy, you're fully cracked.
They had a life they thoughtthey were going to live and
maybe it's one kind of centeredaround things that they had been
told by their parents or thingsthey had experienced.
Like maybe for a young girl,you know, they would be bought
(11:32):
dresses all the time when youwent to the store, when what
they really wanted to wear waspants and a tailored shirt.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
So that's why I could hide more, because I had my
femininity.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
I was a very feminine .
Speaker 3 (11:43):
I've always been this biggest unicorn swirly glitter
girl.
So it kind of made me visibleto myself, and it was only when
I started to register thehomophobic comments around me
that I realized I had a reactionto it and I felt uncomfortable,
right, and this happened inhigh school.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
And do those comments kind of sorta equate with those
inane comments we get afterlosing?
Speaker 3 (12:12):
someone like they're in a better place.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Not really is it the same type or?
Speaker 3 (12:16):
not.
I was terrified because I feltlike.
I was standing in the kitchenand it was a friend's parent
that made this comment.
So all of a sudden I was likedeer in a headlight.
I'm not safe Right now.
I'm fearing for my life.
And I wasn't literally fearingfor my life, but all of a sudden
(12:37):
it was.
When you go to, I'm fine to getout, All right.
So you felt threatened.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yes, absolutely so.
The difference, then, might befear, absolute fear, or hate,
yeah, hate.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Because whenever you come out, it's a risk.
I mean whenever you tell.
If you tell someone like me ifyou have a disability, if you're
ADHD, if you have fibro, ifyou're grieving grief is an
invisible disability I can tellyou that so you risk telling
someone that because they willperhaps change their opinion of
you.
However, if you come out andsomeone has an absolute problem
(13:17):
with your orientation, you willknow and and that bridge will be
burned and you don't know whenthat's going to happen.
So I have not been attacked,but I've had friends that have
been my girl friends, butchfriends, that have been punched
in the face on the streetcar onthe day of kara's funeral.
(13:41):
Oh yeah, it's just that funeral, it's just that extra layer of
shit that you have to deal withon top, and they didn't tell me
that this happened because theydidn't want to upset me.
But she was attacked and it'slike you don't.
If you are visibly queer, thatmakes you more of a target.
(14:03):
I am less of a target.
I can pass, but with Visiblyqueer Okay.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
I like that phrase because that really signifies
and I can relate to that.
You know I can think of peopleI know that I would say are
visibly queer and others thatjust you know you wouldn't know
unless you knew.
But it just seems to me thatthe word hate keeps coming back
to me, that the things that aresaid in those instances are from
(14:35):
the basis of hate, you know, aswell as from the basis of
ignorance.
Yeah, you know both.
And those two together are.
Are they're lethal?
Speaker 3 (14:48):
Yeah, if someone feels threatened if they feel
backed into a corner, as, as youknow, um, even if they're not
being provoked, if just if, justthe fact of me or the fact of
my partner, like um, there's apart in this book where I talk
about care, called it the look.
She called it the.
What is that look?
(15:09):
And?
And one day we were goingoutside of Toronto to get
camping gear at like a at acamping store warehouse, and we
were late.
So we walked down a line ofpeople that were all lined up to
get their camping gear and wegot the what does that look
about?
A hundred times in a row,because we were outside the city
(15:31):
.
I was absolutely livid and Kara, who had been living in the
body that she was living in youknow, for 32 years at that point
just went Right.
I'm like no, you should be madat this.
She's like what am I going todo?
This is me, and before I wasnot me, I was punching walls.
It is better if I am me.
(15:52):
But the other thing is, with meholding her hand, not only is
she visibly queer, I'm visiblyclear, you are also sure you
know so that and when you comeout just to come back to when
you're grieving, or when you're,when you're accepting a
physical disability or somethinglike that, it's it's about you
(16:14):
changing your idyllic image ofyourself.
And I was counseled in thislike we got grief material.
I think I told you when I want,when I went into the
Fibromyalgia Day program aboutgrief, because you grieve the
ideal image of yourself.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
You are not who you used to be.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
So you do that.
When it's grief, grief as well.
And when I grieved Kara, it'slike who am I?
Oh God.
I am now a single mom, I am nowa widow and I am surrounded by
a whole bunch of women who haveall risen up to help me.
But the dynamic is different,because all the people in my
(16:53):
group who are single are nowpotential partners.
Because I'm same-sex and I'vejust lost my wife.
That was confusing, right?
Speaker 2 (16:59):
yeah, confusing for you or confusing for them.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
I think everybody was pretty much up the shit because
they had lost Gara.
Honestly, yeah.
But, my walls were down, I washurting and I had people that
really helped and I had peoplethat made it complicated, which
(17:22):
was another layer that I had todeal with.
And then I was.
I was young and I suddenly hadall of these parents telling me
you should do this, you shoulddo that, so all of a sudden.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Were they?
Were they basing it on the factthat you were queer or not?
Was it just general advice thatyou would have gotten
regardless?
Speaker 3 (17:44):
General advice, but not only with the parents, but
also now with my social circle.
I was not very good at puttingdown boundaries and suddenly I
had to learn that I needed toput down boundaries to keep
myself safe.
And I never expected that Iwould have to do that with my
friends, Like that was totallyout of the blue can you clarify
(18:07):
that a little bit more?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
why would your friends your social support?
Speaker 3 (18:11):
because they could also have been their women.
They were also women, singlewomen were they coming on to you
?
No, but I think everybody hasthey just felt uncomfortable
because that this dynamicexactly Okay, the dynamic of who
I was changed because I did nothave a partner anymore.
So, I was now suddenly a singlelesbian widow with a whole bunch
(18:37):
of people around me, and I'mthinking I'm 34.
I have a huge life ahead of me.
How do I I don't know how tobelong to somebody else.
Yet I want to only be with thepeople that I'm already
comfortable with, because that'sall I can handle right now.
But those relationships can getcomplicated because they're
(18:58):
trying to comfort me, they'retrying to spend time with me.
They trying, you know, and Ijust was just a big endless hole
of I need right now and okay,you have to stand up and and not
do that and put boundaries onrelationship yeah, I would say
that's something that is reallyunique.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Then, about grieving if you are in the queer
community, that that certainlyis easier to say than LBGT
Totally and I mean no disrespectat all, of course, but but that
sounds like it is somethingthat's totally unique that all
of a sudden, to give someone ahug might feel awkward.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
For example, what do you want from me?
What do I want from you?
Why is this different?
Speaker 2 (19:49):
yeah, oh, it's different because my, my wife,
died, like it just nobody, and,whether or not that was the
intention, there still could besome of those exactly.
So, yeah, I understand now.
That would be very verydifficult, exactly.
Very difficult.
Now, do you think that happensfor males that are part of the
queer community?
I don't know.
(20:10):
Or do you think that's uniqueto females?
I don't know.
I think generally women.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
I would suspect that it would happen more for women,
because women in a group aredifferent than men in a group.
Women are already all over eachother, like other like you know
we just are physical with eachother without a thought right.
Well, right right thatphysicality suddenly meant very
different things because, Karaleft a hole in everybody's world
(20:36):
and everybody was spinning outand just the fact that nobody
knew how she died, you know, andeverybody was just in shock and
just did the best that we could.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
But honestly it was awful, you know, and Was there a
point that things started toget better in that regard, that
you could be with your, yoursocial group and everything, and
felt more relaxed, didn't feelthat kind of unease it it felt?
Speaker 3 (21:03):
it actually felt a little bit better once it took
me about.
I guess I was six months and Istarted to date again and I felt
like everybody did a oh, she'staken care of you know, like
there's, there's no moreambiguity she's dating someone
(21:25):
Now.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
the intentions are clear.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Exactly.
There's not that awkwardquestion that people are saying,
and it's not like starting todate again after you've lost
your partner at a young age.
It's not hard enough to tellsomeone, like I told Kara's best
(21:47):
gay male friend.
He was the first one I toldthat I was dating and he says of
course you are.
I'm like thank you for nothaving a problem with this of
course you did he lost hispartner as well, you know he
figured he knew.
You know, and this is why beingwith your people is so much
easier because sometimes therehas to be so much explanation as
to why you're feeling the wayyou're feeling and how the
(22:10):
situation is different for youjust because it is.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
And do you feel at this point in your grief journey
and we all know that we'llprobably grieve for the rest of
our lives for that very specialsomeone Do you feel that there
are any issues related to yourgrieving now because you're in
the queer community?
Speaker 3 (22:29):
There were.
Yeah, because I mean when yousaid, when did things kind of
clear up and those kind ofthings.
Well, it was when a friend ofmine who was my first-year
university roommate was singletoo and was getting was getting
out of a of a long-termrelationship and it was kind of
in the same place.
I was Cause I look at death asthe same way as losing a partner
(22:52):
to divorce, except it's morecomplicated.
It's awful.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Well, you still, you still grieve it.
It's still a loss, exactly, butyou still get.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
You still have to contend with them not choosing
you not being with you but alsohaving you know, especially if
you have kids.
Um so my house was falling down, my, my house was literally
falling down and this friendsaid come and buy a house with
me.
I want to have a baby by myself.
We will co -parent.
So we did.
(23:20):
We bought a house together.
You know, my son and I lived onthe top floor of the triplex.
She lived in the middle and hada baby.
It was like what she, what shedecided was going to happen,
happened.
She's amazing, you know, justdetermined.
She's very specific, she's likethe manifesting master, Um, and
(23:41):
we've we've lived together nowfor like seven years.
But it was interesting becauseand I didn't notice this myself,
but I realized and I had toexplain to her look, I'm having,
(24:02):
I'm emo, I am having feelings,I'm having, and I think it's
because you don't realize thatme living with another woman is
completely different than youliving with a woman, Because to
you I have always been and stillam your roommate, but to me
this is a queer marriage withoutsex.
This is what it is, and I amgoing to have to take a step
(24:22):
back sometime because I'm stillgrieving.
I will always be grieving.
Yet I am doing the exact samethings with my roommate, raising
my children with my roommate.
Right Again, complication justkind of follows me, especially
when the pandemic hit and wewere both working from home.
(24:43):
I had the kids and she wasworking online and we had to
become a family.
We had you know, that was evenmore difficult for me.
It made her push back and itmade me go okay, I'm not going
to touch you, I'm just going todraw a line.
Very uncomfortable.
In the process of the pandemicand me doing a lot of
(25:04):
introspection, I dealt with alot of fear that I had around
men and I got time to look atthat and I realized it wasn't
that I was opposed to dating men, it was that I actually needed
to clear a lot of stuff and,being in isolation from everyone
, I've been dating men for thepast couple of years, like you
(25:26):
know.
I've realized that I am fluidand again my identity changed
and again I was worried abouttelling people.
Oh, guess what?
You know me, the lesbian writerneeds a new label.
Well, why do I need a new label?
Kelly hasn't changed.
That's the thing about labels.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
I don't like labels.
You know number one, it's justnot fair, but other people like
labels because they like todetermine who you are.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yeah, but that doesn't allow you to change, but
when you are first thinkingabout it, the fear is there
Again.
The fear is because you'redoing it in reverse, right.
Yeah, how will?
my friends react?
How will my family, how willKara's family react?
Well, in the end you have tocome down to who the fuck cares.
But you have to get there.
It's, it's a, it's a hurdlethat you have to go over and it
(26:14):
sucks that we have to go to thisdegree of explanation when
we're just trying to beat right.
You know, it just adds thatlayer of complexity and
complication, especially whenother people are like I don't
get it.
I'm like you think I do.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, you know, it just is, itjust is.
So I want you to open your book.
I think you had something inyour book you wanted to share.
I do.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Well it's.
It's special to me because youdid and I didn't get to see the
presentation, but you talkedabout butterflies and whoops and
transformation and I havesomething that I wrote that was
really important to me aboutthat journal journal entry.
(27:18):
Okay, okay, there is more joythan there was.
When I look at myself, clearlyI see the me that belongs to
myself, as well as the me thatbelonged to you.
When I look at myself, I seethe life that is mine and the
life that I had with you, but ata distance which is getting
wider every day that you are nothere.
(27:40):
Sometimes I think it's amiracle that I can recognize
myself outside of a relationshipnot anymore.
Because for many years Ideveloped a sense of identity
and dependence on my partner.
For this reason the isolationhas been very healing, in that
painful, growing kind of way.
The only noise and turmoil Ihave to confront is my own.
(28:03):
Turning inwards has turned thenoise into music.
The singular melody has encasedme, clearing my space of
emotional debris so that I canwitness the change and
transformation in my life, stillsliding around under the
surface of my cocoon.
In here, my attention has beendrawn to a number of things,
(28:26):
external things I had no ideaabout or didn't fully appreciate
, that were a reflection of theinternal changes happening in me
and have yet to happen.
When I was young, my fatherbought me a butterfly net so we
could go down to the creek amongthe reeds and catch a monarch.
We had discussed the marvelousmigration patterns of this
butterfly and I was eager to bea part of their story, if only
(28:50):
as a momentary witness to theirlong journey south to Mexico.
My thoughts are caught up inthese splendidly orange-winged
beauties, the once threatenedspecies that was starting to
recover but is now back on theendangered species list.
Theirs is a lengthy process oftransformation.
The emergent miracle of theirlives has been a through-line in
(29:11):
my thoughts.
How do they do it?
How do they change from anunassuming life camouflaged in
the leaves to an enchantingcreature that can take to the
skies?
All of the answers lay in themystery of the cocoon.
When a baby begins to form, itis one cell the size of a poppy
(29:31):
seed, but when the yellow andwhite striped caterpillar forms
a shell around herself, she isalready something.
Where does she go Now?
I know she dissolves, sheunforms, she breaks down in the
most complete sense of the word.
She is no more and the magic oftime and life recreates her as
(29:53):
a miracle.
And when she steps out into theworld once again, she is new.
This is the combination ofbiology, instinct and faith that
creates and completes thismystery.
Once she shuts herself in, herbody slowly breaks down, bit by
bit, body part by body part,cell by cell and perhaps memory
(30:16):
by memory, to the state ofprimordial ooze.
It is the only way she canrebuild herself to commit to
this isolation and surrendereverything to the universe.
I've been asked to commit asimilar act of faith to spend a
year doing nothing but leteverything change, to release
(30:38):
everything I knew, kneweverything, I was sure about,
everything I was afraid of andeverything I was afraid would
never happen, in order totransform this life into a
beautiful new reincarnation ofitself.
And once I finally understoodthe importance, the urgency of
this process, I looked in themirror and said okay, I
(31:02):
understand, I'm ready to breakdown, that's great.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
I love that.
I would have read that at thebeginning of my workshop.
Yes, it was, it was.
You know, that's fascinatingand you do have a way with words
.
Thank you, you're quiteeloquent.
I was glancing at the clockwhile you were reading and,
(31:28):
sadly, our time is coming to anend.
But before I actually wrap up,I want to turn the microphone
over to you, kelly, and let youspeak directly to the listeners.
Tell them again about your book, where they can get it, tell
them anything you'd like toabout if you have any events
coming up, workshops, whatever,how they can get in contact with
(31:49):
you, whatever you'd like toshare, and keep in mind that
your contact information and thename of the book will also be
in the podcast notes, so peopledon't have to run for a pencil.
Okay, good, so the floor isyours.
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Okay, so you do not need a pencil, you do not need a
pen.
My website, which is goingthrough some changes right now
it's in a cocoon, it iswwwcaptangriefcom.
And, yes, captain Grief isstill alive and kicking and we
have current content there andthat is where I will put all of
(32:24):
my events that are coming up.
And if you're in Ontario, inthe GTA, I'm going to be having
a book launch, where it'll bethe same kind of format in terms
of reading books and sellingbooks.
But if you don't live nearby,you can just Google up amazonca
and look up the High FlyingAdventures of Captain Grief, and
(32:45):
the memoir is there inhardcover and paperback and
Kindle.
And I also have a Facebook groupcalled the High Flying
Adventures of Captain Grief, andthat is actually the original
space that I opened my blog onand there I put stupid stuff, I
put memes, I put resources, Ichat with people about loss.
(33:11):
So if you're looking for a kindof community, I highly
encourage you.
Please find us on Facebook andjoin us and join the
conversation, because everybodyneeds a space to grieve the way
that they need to grieve.
And thinking about booklaunches, I perhaps will do an
(33:31):
online book launch because I do.
What I want to do is to try andbe accessible to people as
possible.
You know what, particularly ifthey're queer, widow and
widowers.
You know because it's hardthing to find a space to grieve,
but when you're queer you wantto know that you're safe.
So mine is an absolutely safe,lgbtq, trans, positive, black
(33:54):
positive, latino positive,neurodivergent positive,
everything community, becauseeverybody is going through the
shit.
You know Everybody and needssupport.
Speaker 2 (34:05):
Yep, yep, grief sucks and grief is ugly.
There's no way around it, itjust is.
It just is.
We can continue forward on ourgrief journey, redefine
ourselves, be somebodycompletely different than the
person we were before and in mycalendar there's really only
(34:26):
before and after yeah, that's it, you know before time before
mom, after mom.
You know that's that's how mycalendar goes, but you know we
have to get through it.
And again, like I say manytimes times, we like to mention
self-care, and one of the bestways of taking care of yourself
is to surround yourself withlike-minded people, because they
(34:51):
will get you and especially ifyou're having a bad day, these
people will get you and theywill give you the space you need
.
They will give you the supportyou need because they understand
, and that's why this is soimportant to me.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
My friends, like I need, I know that I can say
Kathy, I'm having a really shitday and I won't have to do the
precursor of anything.
You, you know.
No, you get it, you're in myshoes.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
So yeah, it just, it just is yeah, even though you
know I haven't walked your exactpath, but we still have that
understanding that you gothrough stuff.
You need support.
So sometimes the best gift youcan give someone is just to
listen, because maybe all theyneed to do is verbalize it so
it's no longer spinning aroundin the brain.
(35:42):
Just, you know, get it out inthe air and release it.
It's a processing.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
It's the same for writing.
I have to write it, to processit, but I have to speak it, even
if it's just to myself, beforeI write it, just to hear it to
know that it's real to constructit again before I put it and I
commit it to you know, to paper,um.
But that's the other thing thatI would like to start doing.
I'd like to do them in person,but I can also.
I'm also considering doing mynarrative healing workshop for
(36:08):
your journey of grief, becausethe first time I did it, um, my
participant had actually losthis whole family in house fire,
his whole family in house fire.
So we did, I know, so we didsix weeks of him writing and
creating a comic book toencapsulate that six-week
journey of using creativity toprocess his loss.
(36:32):
And I can do.
I'm hoping to do this at campwidow, um, yeah.
And then I'm hoping to do thisat Camp Widow, nice, yeah.
And then I'm hoping to open,like physical classes, but just
like I'm hoping to reach a widercommunity online with my book
at some point I would love tohave a wider community for
online narrative healing foryour journey of loss.
(36:55):
So you know it will be on mywebsite.
So just you know, check in.
Lost.
So you know it'll all it willbe on my website.
So just you know, check in.
Um, I'm hoping to grow thatbecause this is what I have done
to be okay, you know, and ifother people have.
Speaker 2 (37:08):
I like that.
This is what I've done to beokay.
Yeah, Yep.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
That's kind of how it works.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
It really does.
So I really have to wrap it upat this point and tell everyone
take care of yourselves.
Thanks again for dialing us up,downloading us and listening
and catch us again next week aswe all continue to live and
grieve.
Speaker 1 (37:30):
Thanks again, you're welcome, thank you thank you so
much for listening with us today.
Do you have a topic that you'dlike us to cover or do you have
a question from one of ourepisodes?
Please email us at info at as Ilive and grieve dot com and let
us know.
We hope you will find a momentto leave a review, send an email
(37:54):
and share with others.
Join us next time as wecontinue to live and grieve
together.
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