June 24, 2025 • 34 mins
When Pam Baker's husband John was diagnosed with glioblastoma, an aggressive form of brain cancer with no cure, their lives changed forever. For three years, she navigated the complex terrain of caregiving for a terminally ill spouse while raising four children, including two with cystic fibrosis. The journey transformed her understanding of grief and ultimately sparked a mission to create spaces where widows could genuinely connect.
"I didn't fit in the single women scene because they're talking about how much they hate their ex-husbands, and I didn't really fit in the couple scene because I'm like a third wheel," Pam explains. This realization led her to create Widows Who Wine (W-I-N-E), a community that started with a simple Facebook post and has grown to nearly 350 members. Unlike traditional grief support groups, which Pam found often kept people stuck in their grief, her community focuses on building friendships and finding joy while acknowledging the shared experience of loss. The concept proved so successful she's developed an app to help widows connect across geographic boundaries.
During our conversation, Pam shares the deeply personal coping mechanisms that helped her survive, including late-night crying sessions to specific songs that allowed her to empty her emotional "rain barrel." We explore the myth that anticipatory grief makes post-death mourning easier, the challenges of raising children through loss, and how Pam channeled her experience into practical resources like her book "Where's the Key to the Safe" and podcasts that preserve authentic stories of loved ones.
Connect with Pam at widowswhowine.com, find her app in major app stores, or read her book "Where's the Key to the Safe" available on Amazon. Her story reminds us that while grief never truly leaves us, we can learn to live alongside it in ways that honor our losses while creating space for new connections and even joy.
Copyright 2020, by As I Live and Grieve
The views expressed by guests are their own and their appearance on the program does not imply an endorsement of them or any entity they represent.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to as I Live and Grieve, a podcast that tells
the truth about how hard thisis.
We're glad you joined us today.
We know how hard it is to losesomeone you love and how
well-intentioned friends andfamily try so hard to comfort us
.
We created this podcast toprovide you with comfort,
knowledge and support.
We are grief advocates, notprofessionals, not licensed
(00:23):
therapists.
We are you.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hi everyone, welcome back in to another episode of as
I Live and Grieve.
Again, I want to say thank youfor taking the time to stop what
you're doing for a moment andtune in, and if you're listening
on a mobile device, well,hopefully you can keep doing
what you were doing before,whether it's driving or just
being outside on the patio.
Maybe you're walking your dogoh, I hope you're not exercising
(00:49):
.
That sounds so hard to do.
But at any rate, here we areagain with another episode, and
another great guest With metoday is Pam Baker.
Hi, pam, thanks for joining me.
Hello, thank you so much forhaving me.
Oh, my pleasure.
Certainly, we're going to talkabout a variety of things today.
Who knows where theconversation is?
(01:13):
But to get us started, wouldyou just kind of give a little
bit of your background, yourstory, for the listeners and let
them know who is Pam?
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Who is Pam?
Oh, my word.
Well, I live north of Atlanta,in Georgia, so we'll start with
that.
North of Atlanta, in Georgia,so we'll start with that.
I have four kids who are almost23, 19, and 16.
(01:37):
And I lost my husband toglioblastoma about three and a
half years ago, so it's been aninteresting few years with that
journey.
Before that, my kids my oldesttwo have cystic fibrosis, so
that took up a big part of ourlives too, with john and I were
both big advocates andfundraisers in that world.
We were a really awesome team,quite frankly, in that world.
So I have carried on in thatand yeah, so that's the nutshell
version.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah one of the things pam and I found out very
quickly is that we have aparallel in our life in that
both of our husbands acquiredglioblastomas and both have now
died from it.
Tom's glio was from hisexposure to Agent Orange.
You knew it Well, the doctorsare sure, because he served in
(02:18):
Vietnam as a combat medic andhad a certain amount of exposure
to Agent Orange and in treatingpeople as well.
So the doctors were convincedthat that's where his came from.
Wow, Although that's not theonly source for glios.
As we all know, cancer is avicious critter, I guess I don't
know what else to call it.
It does have a life of its own,and I know when Tom received
(02:40):
his diagnosis, I was there withhim in the hospital room and the
doctor said I can tell youthree things about glios.
The first is that it's anextremely aggressive type of
cancer.
The second is that it's ratherunpredictable.
It can be different for everyperson that has it.
It will respond a different wayto different medications,
(03:01):
different treatments.
You never really know if whatyou're going to try is going to
work.
It's unpredictable.
And the third thing if he tooka huge pause is that there's
absolutely no cure.
Yeah, exactly, and then with acouple of I'll talk to you later
the Roman left us to deal withthat.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Yeah, it's pretty brutal, it is.
When my kids were diagnosedwith cystic fibrosis we got that
same.
Yeah, it's pretty brutal, it is.
When my kids were diagnosedwith cystic fibrosis, we were.
We got that same thing.
There's no cure.
And at the time they were,Gavin was two and a half and I
was pregnant with Jake.
It's genetic.
So we found immediately youknow I had an amnio to find out
if Jake would be with it andsure enough he was in that wolf,
those words doesn't matter ifit's CF or or glio or you're
(03:48):
just like.
You know.
It's really hard to hold on toany kind of morsel of hope with
those words.
Yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yet we still try and the doctors still try to fill us
with hope.
You know, for every treatmentthey, oh you know, they take
another x-ray and they say, oh,you know, it looks like it's
holding its own after thesurgery.
And I'd get the x-ray report tothe portal and I'd start
reading it.
And you know I've always beengood in math.
So I would take the dimensions,because they would always
(04:13):
measure the math and I wouldtake the dimensions and my older
daughter, stephanie, and Iwould figure it out, say, did
you get this?
Yeah, that's what I got.
It's not getting smaller, no,it's growing.
Even though the doctor wastrying to fill us with hope
everything looks good wasgrowing again.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
You know there's been two glial is just such a beast
where I use the word beastbecause it's such a beast and it
just the way it tentacles intoeverything.
Never get all of it, no matterwhat you do, like we've done
john's.
He had two surgeries and theywere like we got a hundred
percent.
I mean they said yeah, knowingthe yeah is gone of course.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
But yeah, those little arms, those little
tentacles are still there,brutal, working their magic and
uh, you know, you're just leftto deal with it so how long did
you have with john now after yougot the diagnosis?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
So they gave him 12 to 14 months because of where
his was located and it was aright frontal lobe.
So we were fortunate in thesense that it wasn't in really
any section of his reallydebilitating and they could
really get in there and get achunk of the resection done.
He lived three years.
We did a couple of clinicaltrials and a couple rounds of
(05:26):
chemo and and and Optune.
We did all, we tried all thetricks.
Yeah, we did Optune as well.
Yep, that was interesting,Interesting thing.
But yeah, he was very healthyfor a good chunk of it too, I
will say.
He ended up having a seizurewhile he was driving one day,
though chunk of it too, I willsay.
He ended up having a seizurewhile he was driving.
(05:49):
One day, though, and got in areally brutal accident.
I had to cut out of the car andbroken bone, injured lungs.
You know that to me was likehis turning point where he says
I'm going to do this and youcould just thought it was so
deflating for him like doing allthe things he could to then
have that happen.
So mentally it took him out alot.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Once Tom got the diagnosis andhad the surgery, he was told he
would never drive again.
Oh wow, from that point on Iwas his chauffeur everywhere and
that course changed my dailyroutine, because it was, you
know, for a while.
There were daily blood drawsand everything like that.
Just, you do what you have to,you know and you cope as best
(06:29):
you can.
Tom and I had eight monthsafter his diagnosis.
They didn't give us anyprediction, they just said you
don't know that, no, theywouldn't put it out there and in
truth I didn't see him start todeteriorate until he got to the
radiation point.
Oh, oh interesting.
The radiation, I think, is whatweakened him considerably and he
just became totally different,such that after a fall the thing
(06:54):
that would really take him tothe hospital was that he would
fall at home and then they wouldback to the hospital.
And one trip especially, he wasadmitted to the hospital for
observation and just some moreevaluation, and a med student
was talking to him, talking tome, and then the doctors came in
and said well, you know, wethink you can go home.
And the med student stood upand said pardon me, but I don't
(07:18):
think he's going home.
Wow, a student.
And the doctors, you know,looked at him and and he said it
is no longer safe for him to behome because every time he
falls he takes her with him.
Oh, and he said so it is nolonger safe for her to be giving
care that was pretty brave andbold of this.
(07:39):
I know it really was, but I wasso grateful because I couldn't
utter those words myself.
I knew it in my heart and Iwanted at that point I wanted a
different solution because Iknew that I couldn't take much
more but hospital but aveteran's nursing home and
that's where he spent hisremaining time.
(08:07):
But the burden of caregiving isone thing, but then when the
end comes and your husband died,they talk about anticipatory
grief.
Do you feel that any of thegrief you endured before his
death made it any less difficultfor you?
Speaker 3 (08:26):
after he died?
That's a really good question.
Thinking back on that time,it's so interesting and I'm sure
you felt the same.
It's brutal and I, you know,I'm grateful for the time that
we had.
But I will say that in thattime, you know, like you said
exactly, you become their.
Everything, the full focus ofeverything goes to them, and you
(08:46):
know, I have four kids thatwere.
Two were in college at the time, jake wasn't, I had one fully
in college and my youngest wasonly nine years old.
So it required a lot too, andthey all got the back burner
because everything went fully to.
John.
And so, and then you know themoments of resentment that I
felt I can't voice becauseyou're like I'm not going to
(09:07):
cause a fight with my husband.
He has brain cancer, that'sright, you can't.
There are so many layers ofemotions, right.
So you're like your fear, yourgrief, your anger, your
frustration, your resentment,it's all buried, because, I mean
, I had to be the one when hedid have the moments of despair,
like I and you know he'd gointo dark places, you know I'd
(09:30):
let him there a little bit andthen I'd have to be the
cheerleader to bring him back up, like, come on, get the gloves,
let's go, let's go, we're notthis way.
And so there's so much.
You know, my own healthhonestly really deteriorated in
that three years.
Right, I had a lot of wine,I'll tell you that right now and
so I had that, so I wasn'tsleeping.
(09:53):
You know the worry the cortisol.
you're like living for so long.
Yeah, were you working at thetime?
I did work.
I wasn't.
I was always a stay-at-home mom.
But interestingly, my secondchild was not in college.
He was in school but he went toboarding school.
But it was only an hour from meand so I worked at the boarding
school as a volunteer all thetime.
And then they had a positionlike the parent relations
(10:15):
coordinator with suddenly.
So they were like come and dothis job, because I knew how to
do, I hired her.
I was on the fire and so I did.
It was interesting because itwas not long after John was
diagnosed that they asked me todo that and it, you know, it was
(10:35):
like an hour and 10 minutedrive, but I only a few days a
week.
So I never worked until, like,he was diagnosed.
But I suddenly had a job.
It was very, but it probablysaved my sanity some.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yeah, my work became my Haven when I couldn't work.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, cause in the beginning, once he got to a
certain point, I couldn't dothat anymore.
But yeah, yeah it was.
There's so many layers, sothat's a good question.
Back to your question aboutanticipatory.
I don't know, I think I was soin the weeds with all the
emotions and then it wassurvival after he did pass, you
know, still again having all mykids and and just survival.
(11:09):
Thankfully he left us.
I mean, I've met so many widowsnow I told you I started a
group here Widows who WantN-W-I-N-E of course, and so I've
met, I've had the privilege ofmeeting a lot of widows.
And so many women are left infinancial distress after a
person dies and that just adds awhole other layer, right, so
(11:33):
grateful we were left in aposition that I didn't have to
worry about, that I didn't haveto sell the house, didn't have
to go get a job, didn't have todo any of those things.
So thankfully, cause that justadds a whole nother layer, but
there's still just survival mode.
So, yeah, I think I realized hedied in November.
And then I remember going to afitness class.
(11:54):
You know, back then it wasstill COVID and the end of COVID
.
I was in a workout class, butit was like a one.
It was one of those.
It was hot work, so it was likea sauna room and they would one
or two people in the room at atime and I was in there and it
was a screen, a virtual coach,right.
And then every class ended withlike a seated meditation where
it said focus on what brings youjoy, what brings you joy, and
(12:15):
just sit.
And I was nothing.
I have no joy.
Yeah, there was nothing and Icouldn't.
That was when I realized I waslike you need to get a grip and
thankfully it wasn't too longafter he died, but it was, you
know, six months or whatever.
But I was like you've got topull yourself up here and find
some happiness in your life andfind at least try to start
(12:38):
working my way back there yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Well, it sounds to me like the simple answer to the
question did the anticipatorygrief phase make your post-death
grief any less difficult?
It sounds to me like the answeris no.
Yeah, that's really what itsounds like.
Yeah, so to me like the answeris no.
Yeah, that's really what itsounds like.
Yeah, so to me, because Iexperienced something similar in
(13:00):
that when I walked out to theparking lot the morning that Tom
died, you know, aftereverything was kind of finalized
and I had his last fewpossessions from his room and
everything on my way out to thecar, I had this sudden moment of
a burden being lifted off myshoulders and I thought, it's
true, anticipatory grief takescare of that, because I knew
(13:24):
this day was coming.
Now the day has arrived.
So, yeah, I'm okay, I can justmove on.
And then, 20 minutes later, I'mhome, I'm dissolved in tears and
sobs and just could not put itback together and I thought wait
a minute, what happened?
I felt like I'd been cheated.
(13:45):
You know, they told me that itwas supposed to be easier.
Well, it's not.
I think all it really does isjust extend.
I think it's extend the grief,or in some ways, you just grieve
, you reach a break and then youstart to grieve all over again.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Yeah, Right back at the beginning, a different type,
maybe you know, the anxiety,grief and all that, that
anticipation.
Like you said, it's like you do.
I remember when cause rightafter he was diagnosed, we went
to the beach, we went toCharleston my oldest was at the
(14:19):
college of Charleston and it'slike the whole family rallied
and we had everybody there and Ijust remember sitting on the
beach, like being so sad for himin this that I kept being like
feeling, imagining what he wasfeeling, right, like what if
this is my last time?
Cause he was late, we wereleaving the beach and going
straight to brain surgery.
You don't know what's going tohappen when they go.
No, you don't.
I all I can can because he'ssitting here thinking what if
this is my last time looking atthe ocean?
(14:41):
What if this is the last time,well, sure, playing on the beach
with my kids?
What if, you know?
And oh, that was so hard, justand you're thinking the same
thing.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
You're trying to put in his perspective?
Speaker 3 (14:51):
yeah, but it was really in your thoughts as well
yeah, sure, and, like the kids,don't even know what's happening
.
They knew of the diagnosis butnobody knows and just thinking
how brutal, like how it's goingto hit the kids and, oh my God,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
How did the kids handle that three-year period
where he was ill?
Speaker 3 (15:10):
You know each differently, of course.
My oldest was, you know, prettyfar into college and you know
pretty far into college and, uh,you know he's an oldest, he's a
firstborn, so he just took careof business and did his thing.
And my second one flounderedand he still, kind of honestly,
he, you know, went off tocollege during COVID and then
(15:30):
that didn't work and came homeand then he went back again and
then John was diagnosed, throughall of this, but then, you know
, went first semester, came home, second semester, went back
again, and then john wasdiagnosed, through all of this,
but then, you know, he wentfirst semester, came home.
Second semester went back inthe fall, but that's when john
was actively dying, and that'sthe fall, yeah, home.
And then, you know, it was likeback and forth, right still in
that place, he's, yeah, beemotionally, but he's still like
(15:51):
kind of fragmented, yeah, yeahand then my daughter went off
the rails.
She was.
He was so tight with all of thekids, but it was the and they
did volleyball.
He coached all of her stuff,they, she's a.
He was a volleyball player andhe coached and he went to
college where we went to collegewhere we met.
(16:12):
Oh yeah, are called thevolleyball for him and so she
went off the rails.
She was a disaster, it was hard.
And then my youngest you know,I had him in therapy the whole
time because I could controlthat.
The rest of them were teenagers.
This one I'm like we're goingin and yeah, so we started it
(16:34):
from nine when, yeah it, and hejust stayed.
I think that just helped him somuch because for a couple years
after john died so he was likeI don't think I need this
anymore.
I'm like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
So you had multiple layers of grief, because you not
only had your own to deal with,but while you were caring for
john, he was grieving as well.
He was grieving the life he wasno longer going to have.
So you were grieving your loss,you were grieving his loss, and
then you were grieving each ofyour children's losses as well,
(17:08):
and women are especially good atstuffing their own needs and
emotions and feelings.
Did you have a point in timewhere it looked like your kids
had kind of settled a bit andall of your emotions just kind
of came right back in full force?
Speaker 3 (17:25):
I have a habit that I learned with my children,
because you suffer grief whenyou, your children, are
diagnosed with a disease wherethey're probably outlive you
there.
I am just a I power throughthings until I was compared to
like a rain barrel, and when thebarrel like gets so full you
can't do one more thing, it'sgoing to collapse and just fall.
(17:47):
I I've always I trained myselfand it just works for me.
I will.
In the middle of the night wheneverybody's gone to sleep, I
have like certain songs that Ilisten to different songs for
John than I did for my childrenand I would just go and like put
headphones on in the dark ofthe night when nobody was around
, and just cry and cry and cry,and cry and cry and cry.
(18:08):
No more tears left.
And then I'd be like, okay, therain barrels empty.
Now I can get back to life.
That's how I've always done it.
So I did the same, I did thesame, I.
When John was diagnosed, I justthere was a song that I just
used.
Oh, it was terrible, it was.
I just struck me.
I was like, oh, my God, Icouldn't remember what it was,
but it just came into my head.
(18:29):
Chicago, if you leave me now,oh yes.
I don't know why that song was.
I mean, it's obviously abreakup song, but I would just
go in my in a room.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I just provoked the right emotion when you needed it
.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah, it did, and I would just listen to it over and
over again Like come back.
Okay, yeah, I'm back and do it.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
So yeah, now, when you talk about self-care and
everything, there are those thatwould think inflicting pain on
yourself is not self-care.
But you inflicted that pain sothat you would cry, so that you
would release the emotion.
Yes, and it was that release,that was the self-care.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Yeah, the pain, that's true.
Yeah, it was just somethingthat I you know I'm just kind of
known as being a tough nuggetand I'll.
I've just been that way mywhole life and I will.
But I understand the value ofit and feeling me, but I'm also
a little bit of a control freak,so I control when they happen.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
But kind of like ripping the Band-Aid off.
You know it's going to hurt alot when you rip it off, but
afterward there's going to besome relief, that's right, and
afterward the wound will heal alittle better.
So I just wanted to clarifythat for our listeners that were
thinking well, why would youwant to make yourself cry?
But that's why you explained itvery well with the analogy of
the rain barrel as well.
Now you mentioned something alittle bit ago about a group
(19:56):
called Women who Wine, but it'sW-I-N-E.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Tell me about that.
Women who Wine?
Yes, so when John died I wentto all of.
I up catholic and, but I don'thave a strong affinity for
religion.
I'm very spiritual and Ibelieve in a higher power, but I
don't anyway.
It's a whole another topic.
But I tried all of the griefshares and the all the things
(20:21):
and I tried my sister would gowith me and even the ones that
said they weren't like superchurchy, but it was like they
all offered that same thing andit was all like.
I just felt like people were solike stuck in their grief and I
didn't see people trying to moveforward with it and and learn
to live with it in a healthy way, and so none of that's what I
(20:43):
was looking for.
I tried a lot so I just gave upand I got introduced to someone
who is amazing.
She's a certified griefcounselor with.
The program is called griefrecovery and that's exactly what
you do.
You work through it, you workthrough all the things and you
just come to a healthy place ofliving with it.
You're never going to, it'snever going to be gone.
You're going to have the grieffor your life and so you do
(21:07):
figure out how to live with itin a healthy way, and so I still
work with her.
She's a life coach too, so wedon't talk about grief so much
anymore.
Sometimes we do when it comesup.
One of my friends described itas like the waves like you don't
know when the waves are goingto hit.
They're going to hit sometimeand they will, and in just over
time then maybe the waves get alittle smaller and they're not
(21:28):
like slamming around anymore,but they'll got to know how to
handle it.
And so I started working withher.
But then, North of Atlanta, it'sbig area in the suburbs and we
have this great big mom'sFacebook group and some I kept
seeing several women that wereyounger women too lost my
(21:48):
husband, Are there any resourcesfor me?
And every single person justlisted those same exact groups
and I was like, oh, like there'sgotta be something else.
And so I just kind of get myhead spinning obsessively
sometimes, and it was obsessivebecause I just was like I got to
do something.
I got to do something Right, Iwanted it to be.
Those are.
They serve their purpose, right, they serve their purpose.
(22:10):
They're great for people who itmatches and I had discovered
because at this point.
It was February 2023, John diedin November 2021.
And what y'all discover, I think, as widows, is your friends
rally around you a lot thecouple friends and all that
stuff but eventually everybodygoes back to live in their lives
.
And you're now.
(22:31):
You don't really fit in thesingle women scene because
they're talking about how muchthey hate their ex-husbands and
you don't really fit in thecouple scene because you're like
a third wheel, a fifth wheel,whatever.
So where's your space?
Right, my space on the couchwatching Netflix with my sister.
So I was like there's got to besomething for us to live a
(22:53):
shared experience.
So right, but I wanted it tohave that social vibe.
It's not, but it's a.
It's a group of women thatsupport each other when the
grief hits.
But that's not our point, ourpoint of have.
I call it finding the bestfriends you never knew you
needed, because we just are.
Everybody is.
It's such an easy relationshipin most cases because of that
(23:14):
shared experience.
You know right, just put it outthere on that facebook page, in
my own facebook page, and saidI'm, I'm starting this group
called widows who whine, and ifanybody wants to come, just come
on over to my house.
And 14 women showed up thatfirst night.
Oh my gosh, yeah, and it was apouring horribly torrential rain
and I must have a lot offriends on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Well.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
I do that.
Roswell moms group has like9,000 members.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
I, 14 women showed up and and, uh, yeah, and now you
know, I plan one social thing amonth and sometimes we do, like
I did, a home maintenanceone-on-one so we could all learn
how to take care of our housesproactively.
Planning one-on-one and stufflike that we do, but mostly
social.
We do fun stuff wine tastingsor ax throwing or pottery, you
(24:05):
know all kinds of fun stuff.
But the other cool thing is now, with all these women in it
there's 300 and almost 350 women.
There's zhong and there's bookclubs and there's cornhole
groups and there's, you know,widows who golf, widows who dine
, widows who all the stuff likeoh my goodness, offshoots of
yeah, that's incredible, so fun.
And so then I had all thesepeople reaching out to me in
(24:27):
other States, cause I do have abig Facebook presence and you'll
have something like this inPhilly or New York or Oklahoma
or Florida, and so that got methinking again.
So I actually have been workingwith an app developed for
almost two years now and it's ifI keep wanting it to be perfect
before I fully launch it.
it's in the doors but, I'm notlike pushing it hard right now
(24:49):
because I'm still tweaking.
They're still like, oh, wedon't like that and I don't like
this, and I just need to justdo it.
But so that you know we'll becoming out.
Well, it's out, but it'll be.
And is that also?
Women who wine, widows who LineIn, and that's the whole.
(25:10):
It's actually very muchdesigned like a dating app,
because you put on your thingsyou like and build a profile and
you can do the littlegeographical thing, like if I'm
going to LA, I can look up inany widow area and I can just go
and you know you have abuilt-in group wherever you go.
Wow, yeah, it's really fun.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
It's really cool, wow , and I also know that you have
written a book.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yes, what's about that?
Yeah, so my husband was afinancial advisor and obviously
we knew it wasn't going to endwell when he got diagnosed with
glioblastoma and he was veryproactive.
We had a team, we had a CFPlawyer all the things.
He had a full team at hisoffice.
We had a CFP lawyer all thethings.
He had a full team at hisoffice.
And when he died, there wasstill things that we didn't have
set up right, because you don'tknow until you know, and a lot
(25:55):
of things.
However, the title of the bookis called Where's the Key to the
Safe, because I didn't knowwhere the freaking key to the
safe was.
I was like we had three yearsto plan for this.
How do I not know where thefreaking key is?
And you know that was one ofthe things.
I was like man, how do peopledo this?
If it's another one of my braingets going?
I knew it was coming Like weknew you had three years to plan
(26:18):
and a team and a successfulbusiness, like all these things.
If your husband dies in a caraccident on the way to work, you
know how do you do this.
And so my nephew actuallyworked for my husband.
He's also a financial planner.
He went through all of it withme when John died and so he
co-wrote the book with me andit's so awesome.
It just launched a couple ofweeks ago.
(26:40):
And when John died I'm not a fanof any of the financial stuff
and he tried and tried and triedand I was like, no, that's your
job and I'm lowered.
But I started readingeverything when he died because
I didn't want anybody to takeadvantage of me.
I was going to know my stuff.
Well, those books are so boringand I was just like, oh my God,
(27:00):
the topic is boring, but alsothe writing is boring, the
visuals are boring.
So I wanted my book to bereally pretty and the fonts to
be aesthetically pleasing, andwe have graphics.
One of my nephew's friends isour graphic designer.
She did some graphics to makeit all really.
It's meant to be reallypleasing to the eye, very easy,
(27:21):
and the whole vibe is meant tofeel like you're sitting down
with your girlfriend havingcoffee.
And I have a joke.
I'm like when I was pregnant Iread the book um, girlfriend's
guide to pregnancy.
I'm like, yes, girlfriend'sguide to widowhood, guide to
your spouse dying.
I wanted it to have that vibe,though that you're hanging out
with your friends and talkingabout things, and so each
(27:45):
chapter we cover everything fromlike words and keys to the safe
to right continuation plan,because we did have to figure
out how to do.
Yeah, and so his name isCameron and obviously I'm Pam,
so every chapter it starts withPam and I give an anecdotal
story about that particulartopic, if it's or umbrella
(28:05):
policies or you know whatever.
Pam comes in and gives theprofessional perspective.
It's really cool.
And then we have a workbookthat goes along with it.
So the ideally if you're bothwork your way through the whole
book, you can literally liketake that workbook to your
whatever have it proactively sothat when your person dies,
whether it's a sibling or aparent or anyone you're
(28:27):
financially connected to, youcan focus on honoring them and
focus on your grief versus thebusiness of death, because it's
so impossible to make thosekinds of decisions when you're
in fog.
It's impossible.
So that's the whole point inwriting the book and gotten
really great feedback frompeople on it and how easy it
easy it is to read.
(28:47):
And my very first and I gotfrom a friend of a friend was oh
, my god, I feel like I'msitting down having coffee with
her.
I was like, yay, exactly whatyou wanted.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, oh, that's super.
That's super.
Well, I know it's going to seemlike you have done nothing but
talk, but we both talk.
Yes, yes, we did.
And this is the point in thepodcast where I turn the
microphone over to my guest andlet my guest just speak directly
to the listeners without meinterrupting with questions.
(29:18):
So I'm going to pass themicrophone to you.
Make sure you tell people wherethey can find your book.
Repeat the title, tell them alittle bit about the new app so
they can start looking for it,and just you know the floor is
yours.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Okay, well, thank you so much.
First of all, I'm really.
This has been such a pleasurejust talking with you and
getting to know you and justbeing able to share my story.
I just think it's, it's anhonor.
So, thank you, I will say okay.
So widows who wine I have awebsite, widows who winecom, and
you can find everything there.
And the widows who wine app isin the app store, in both Google
(29:57):
and the app store, and whatelse I have.
I actually just started apodcast of my own, and so I have
two.
I do is telling you about mycoffee, cancer and cocktails,
where we right, we chronicledour entire journey with
glioblastoma, from diagnosisuntil the end, and not into a
(30:17):
podcast.
That's already in all theplatforms Spotify, apple and
everything.
And then I launched another onelast week called the lost love
stories, and that's really aboutI've talked to a lot of widows
about this too People, after youknow not very long, stop
talking about your person andcause they just don't know how
to talk about the people who aredead, and when they do, they
sort of glorify everything, sothe real person is lost.
(30:41):
So this podcast will talk notjust to widows, but like my
sonake is going to be my firstguest, actually did an intro
episode last week and jake losthis best friend, blake, in a
snowboarding accident.
So we're gonna, yeah, so youknow he lost his dad, yeah, and
it's terrible.
So we, it's just anyone.
You've lost just a chance tochronicle that story the the
(31:03):
good, the ugly, the challenges,the things you know what that's
going to be about.
And then, of course, my bookwhere's the key to the ugly, the
challenges, the things you knowwhat that's going to be about?
And then, of course, my bookwhere's the key to the safe,
which is on Amazon and prettymuch anywhere you can buy books.
Now, you just have to be supercareful and because it's Amazon,
you have to be specific.
Until I have 100 reviews, whichI think we're at about 50
(31:24):
something.
When you get to a hundred, yougo into their algorithm, but
until then you have to bespecific.
And if you put, where is thekey to the safe has to be
where's the workbook?
Is there too, but it has to bewhere's the key to the safe
workbook?
Yeah, so specific, buthopefully we'll be up to our 100
(31:45):
reviews soon and we'll be inthere.
But we did hit the bestselleron it.
We did oh, that's excellent,the bestseller and the new
released bestseller and all thatstuff.
So we got that stuff.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
So I think that's it, my podcast all right, my busy
lady, kudos to you, kudos, um,for your legacy work.
Uh, because that's what it is.
I didn't know your book, thecommunity of widows who whine,
your app, everything Kudos, yeah.
So, listeners, this is the time, of course, now you know.
(32:15):
What's coming next is I have tosign off, and I have to tell
you that, as you know, I sayevery time that the contact
information, links andeverything for Pam will be in
the podcast notes.
So don't worry, if you didn'thave a pen handy, you don't have
to listen to the whole episodeagain.
I wouldn't do that to youunless you want to listen to it
(32:36):
again.
You can just look at thepodcast notes and you'll find
all the contact informationthere, and they should all be
live links so you can just clickon them and it'll take you
right to her website, and Iencourage you to do that.
Pam has great information.
I have no doubt that her bookis delightful to read.
I think you know the one careerthat you might have after you
(33:00):
go through grief period anddealing with paperwork and all
that is.
You probably could become adetective or a personal
investigator, because that'swhat it winds up being.
You have to do so much work inthat vein, remember also to take
care of yourselves.
You heard Pam's story of herself-care sobbing, crying in the
middle of the night in responseto a song, a song with a theme,
one for her husband, one foreach child, things like that.
(33:23):
It may sound like you'reinflicting pain, but you're not.
You're prompting a release ofemotions, and we all know that
the more times you tell thestory, the more times you cry,
yell, scream, get the emotionsout of your body, the easier it
is to move forward, and moveforward is what we all need to
(33:43):
do, for sure.
So take care of yourselves, andI hope you'll find time again
to come back for the nextepisode, as we all continue to
live and grieve.
Thanks again, pam.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Thank you so much for listening with us today.
Do you have a topic that you'dlike us to cover or do you have
a question from one of ourepisodes?
Please email us at info atasiliveandgrievecom and let us
know.
We hope you will find a momentto leave a review, send an email
and share with others.
Join us next time as wecontinue to live and grieve
(34:19):
together.
Welcome to as I Live and Grieve, a podcast that tells
the truth about how hard thisis.
We're glad you joined us today.
We know how hard it is to losesomeone you love and how
well-intentioned friends andfamily try so hard to comfort us
.
We created this podcast toprovide you with comfort,
knowledge and support.
We are grief advocates, notprofessionals, not licensed
(00:23):
therapists.
We are you.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Hi everyone, welcome back in to another episode of as
I Live and Grieve.
Again, I want to say thank youfor taking the time to stop what
you're doing for a moment andtune in, and if you're listening
on a mobile device, well,hopefully you can keep doing
what you were doing before,whether it's driving or just
being outside on the patio.
Maybe you're walking your dogoh, I hope you're not exercising
(00:49):
.
That sounds so hard to do.
But at any rate, here we areagain with another episode, and
another great guest With metoday is Pam Baker.
Hi, pam, thanks for joining me.
Hello, thank you so much forhaving me.
Oh, my pleasure.
Certainly, we're going to talkabout a variety of things today.
Who knows where theconversation is?
(01:13):
But to get us started, wouldyou just kind of give a little
bit of your background, yourstory, for the listeners and let
them know who is Pam?
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Who is Pam?
Oh, my word.
Well, I live north of Atlanta,in Georgia, so we'll start with
that.
North of Atlanta, in Georgia,so we'll start with that.
I have four kids who are almost23, 19, and 16.
(01:37):
And I lost my husband toglioblastoma about three and a
half years ago, so it's been aninteresting few years with that
journey.
Before that, my kids my oldesttwo have cystic fibrosis, so
that took up a big part of ourlives too, with john and I were
both big advocates andfundraisers in that world.
We were a really awesome team,quite frankly, in that world.
So I have carried on in thatand yeah, so that's the nutshell
version.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah one of the things pam and I found out very
quickly is that we have aparallel in our life in that
both of our husbands acquiredglioblastomas and both have now
died from it.
Tom's glio was from hisexposure to Agent Orange.
You knew it Well, the doctorsare sure, because he served in
(02:18):
Vietnam as a combat medic andhad a certain amount of exposure
to Agent Orange and in treatingpeople as well.
So the doctors were convincedthat that's where his came from.
Wow, Although that's not theonly source for glios.
As we all know, cancer is avicious critter, I guess I don't
know what else to call it.
It does have a life of its own,and I know when Tom received
(02:40):
his diagnosis, I was there withhim in the hospital room and the
doctor said I can tell youthree things about glios.
The first is that it's anextremely aggressive type of
cancer.
The second is that it's ratherunpredictable.
It can be different for everyperson that has it.
It will respond a different wayto different medications,
(03:01):
different treatments.
You never really know if whatyou're going to try is going to
work.
It's unpredictable.
And the third thing if he tooka huge pause is that there's
absolutely no cure.
Yeah, exactly, and then with acouple of I'll talk to you later
the Roman left us to deal withthat.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Yeah, it's pretty brutal, it is.
When my kids were diagnosedwith cystic fibrosis we got that
same.
Yeah, it's pretty brutal, it is.
When my kids were diagnosedwith cystic fibrosis, we were.
We got that same thing.
There's no cure.
And at the time they were,Gavin was two and a half and I
was pregnant with Jake.
It's genetic.
So we found immediately youknow I had an amnio to find out
if Jake would be with it andsure enough he was in that wolf,
those words doesn't matter ifit's CF or or glio or you're
(03:48):
just like.
You know.
It's really hard to hold on toany kind of morsel of hope with
those words.
Yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Yet we still try and the doctors still try to fill us
with hope.
You know, for every treatmentthey, oh you know, they take
another x-ray and they say, oh,you know, it looks like it's
holding its own after thesurgery.
And I'd get the x-ray report tothe portal and I'd start
reading it.
And you know I've always beengood in math.
So I would take the dimensions,because they would always
(04:13):
measure the math and I wouldtake the dimensions and my older
daughter, stephanie, and Iwould figure it out, say, did
you get this?
Yeah, that's what I got.
It's not getting smaller, no,it's growing.
Even though the doctor wastrying to fill us with hope
everything looks good wasgrowing again.
Speaker 3 (04:29):
You know there's been two glial is just such a beast
where I use the word beastbecause it's such a beast and it
just the way it tentacles intoeverything.
Never get all of it, no matterwhat you do, like we've done
john's.
He had two surgeries and theywere like we got a hundred
percent.
I mean they said yeah, knowingthe yeah is gone of course.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
But yeah, those little arms, those little
tentacles are still there,brutal, working their magic and
uh, you know, you're just leftto deal with it so how long did
you have with john now after yougot the diagnosis?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
So they gave him 12 to 14 months because of where
his was located and it was aright frontal lobe.
So we were fortunate in thesense that it wasn't in really
any section of his reallydebilitating and they could
really get in there and get achunk of the resection done.
He lived three years.
We did a couple of clinicaltrials and a couple rounds of
(05:26):
chemo and and and Optune.
We did all, we tried all thetricks.
Yeah, we did Optune as well.
Yep, that was interesting,Interesting thing.
But yeah, he was very healthyfor a good chunk of it too, I
will say.
He ended up having a seizurewhile he was driving one day,
though chunk of it too, I willsay.
He ended up having a seizurewhile he was driving.
(05:49):
One day, though, and got in areally brutal accident.
I had to cut out of the car andbroken bone, injured lungs.
You know that to me was likehis turning point where he says
I'm going to do this and youcould just thought it was so
deflating for him like doing allthe things he could to then
have that happen.
So mentally it took him out alot.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Once Tom got the diagnosis andhad the surgery, he was told he
would never drive again.
Oh wow, from that point on Iwas his chauffeur everywhere and
that course changed my dailyroutine, because it was, you
know, for a while.
There were daily blood drawsand everything like that.
Just, you do what you have to,you know and you cope as best
(06:29):
you can.
Tom and I had eight monthsafter his diagnosis.
They didn't give us anyprediction, they just said you
don't know that, no, theywouldn't put it out there and in
truth I didn't see him start todeteriorate until he got to the
radiation point.
Oh, oh interesting.
The radiation, I think, is whatweakened him considerably and he
just became totally different,such that after a fall the thing
(06:54):
that would really take him tothe hospital was that he would
fall at home and then they wouldback to the hospital.
And one trip especially, he wasadmitted to the hospital for
observation and just some moreevaluation, and a med student
was talking to him, talking tome, and then the doctors came in
and said well, you know, wethink you can go home.
And the med student stood upand said pardon me, but I don't
(07:18):
think he's going home.
Wow, a student.
And the doctors, you know,looked at him and and he said it
is no longer safe for him to behome because every time he
falls he takes her with him.
Oh, and he said so it is nolonger safe for her to be giving
care that was pretty brave andbold of this.
(07:39):
I know it really was, but I wasso grateful because I couldn't
utter those words myself.
I knew it in my heart and Iwanted at that point I wanted a
different solution because Iknew that I couldn't take much
more but hospital but aveteran's nursing home and
that's where he spent hisremaining time.
(08:07):
But the burden of caregiving isone thing, but then when the
end comes and your husband died,they talk about anticipatory
grief.
Do you feel that any of thegrief you endured before his
death made it any less difficultfor you?
Speaker 3 (08:26):
after he died?
That's a really good question.
Thinking back on that time,it's so interesting and I'm sure
you felt the same.
It's brutal and I, you know,I'm grateful for the time that
we had.
But I will say that in thattime, you know, like you said
exactly, you become their.
Everything, the full focus ofeverything goes to them, and you
(08:46):
know, I have four kids thatwere.
Two were in college at the time, jake wasn't, I had one fully
in college and my youngest wasonly nine years old.
So it required a lot too, andthey all got the back burner
because everything went fully to.
John.
And so, and then you know themoments of resentment that I
felt I can't voice becauseyou're like I'm not going to
(09:07):
cause a fight with my husband.
He has brain cancer, that'sright, you can't.
There are so many layers ofemotions, right.
So you're like your fear, yourgrief, your anger, your
frustration, your resentment,it's all buried, because, I mean
, I had to be the one when hedid have the moments of despair,
like I and you know he'd gointo dark places, you know I'd
(09:30):
let him there a little bit andthen I'd have to be the
cheerleader to bring him back up, like, come on, get the gloves,
let's go, let's go, we're notthis way.
And so there's so much.
You know, my own healthhonestly really deteriorated in
that three years.
Right, I had a lot of wine,I'll tell you that right now and
so I had that, so I wasn'tsleeping.
(09:53):
You know the worry the cortisol.
you're like living for so long.
Yeah, were you working at thetime?
I did work.
I wasn't.
I was always a stay-at-home mom.
But interestingly, my secondchild was not in college.
He was in school but he went toboarding school.
But it was only an hour from meand so I worked at the boarding
school as a volunteer all thetime.
And then they had a positionlike the parent relations
(10:15):
coordinator with suddenly.
So they were like come and dothis job, because I knew how to
do, I hired her.
I was on the fire and so I did.
It was interesting because itwas not long after John was
diagnosed that they asked me todo that and it, you know, it was
(10:35):
like an hour and 10 minutedrive, but I only a few days a
week.
So I never worked until, like,he was diagnosed.
But I suddenly had a job.
It was very, but it probablysaved my sanity some.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yeah, my work became my Haven when I couldn't work.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Yeah, cause in the beginning, once he got to a
certain point, I couldn't dothat anymore.
But yeah, yeah it was.
There's so many layers, sothat's a good question.
Back to your question aboutanticipatory.
I don't know, I think I was soin the weeds with all the
emotions and then it wassurvival after he did pass, you
know, still again having all mykids and and just survival.
(11:09):
Thankfully he left us.
I mean, I've met so many widowsnow I told you I started a
group here Widows who WantN-W-I-N-E of course, and so I've
met, I've had the privilege ofmeeting a lot of widows.
And so many women are left infinancial distress after a
person dies and that just adds awhole other layer, right, so
(11:33):
grateful we were left in aposition that I didn't have to
worry about, that I didn't haveto sell the house, didn't have
to go get a job, didn't have todo any of those things.
So thankfully, cause that justadds a whole nother layer, but
there's still just survival mode.
So, yeah, I think I realized hedied in November.
And then I remember going to afitness class.
(11:54):
You know, back then it wasstill COVID and the end of COVID
.
I was in a workout class, butit was like a one.
It was one of those.
It was hot work, so it was likea sauna room and they would one
or two people in the room at atime and I was in there and it
was a screen, a virtual coach,right.
And then every class ended withlike a seated meditation where
it said focus on what brings youjoy, what brings you joy, and
(12:15):
just sit.
And I was nothing.
I have no joy.
Yeah, there was nothing and Icouldn't.
That was when I realized I waslike you need to get a grip and
thankfully it wasn't too longafter he died, but it was, you
know, six months or whatever.
But I was like you've got topull yourself up here and find
some happiness in your life andfind at least try to start
(12:38):
working my way back there yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Well, it sounds to me like the simple answer to the
question did the anticipatorygrief phase make your post-death
grief any less difficult?
It sounds to me like the answeris no.
Yeah, that's really what itsounds like.
Yeah, so to me like the answeris no.
Yeah, that's really what itsounds like.
Yeah, so to me, because Iexperienced something similar in
(13:00):
that when I walked out to theparking lot the morning that Tom
died, you know, aftereverything was kind of finalized
and I had his last fewpossessions from his room and
everything on my way out to thecar, I had this sudden moment of
a burden being lifted off myshoulders and I thought, it's
true, anticipatory grief takescare of that, because I knew
(13:24):
this day was coming.
Now the day has arrived.
So, yeah, I'm okay, I can justmove on.
And then, 20 minutes later, I'mhome, I'm dissolved in tears and
sobs and just could not put itback together and I thought wait
a minute, what happened?
I felt like I'd been cheated.
(13:45):
You know, they told me that itwas supposed to be easier.
Well, it's not.
I think all it really does isjust extend.
I think it's extend the grief,or in some ways, you just grieve
, you reach a break and then youstart to grieve all over again.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Yeah, Right back at the beginning, a different type,
maybe you know, the anxiety,grief and all that, that
anticipation.
Like you said, it's like you do.
I remember when cause rightafter he was diagnosed, we went
to the beach, we went toCharleston my oldest was at the
(14:19):
college of Charleston and it'slike the whole family rallied
and we had everybody there and Ijust remember sitting on the
beach, like being so sad for himin this that I kept being like
feeling, imagining what he wasfeeling, right, like what if
this is my last time?
Cause he was late, we wereleaving the beach and going
straight to brain surgery.
You don't know what's going tohappen when they go.
No, you don't.
I all I can can because he'ssitting here thinking what if
this is my last time looking atthe ocean?
(14:41):
What if this is the last time,well, sure, playing on the beach
with my kids?
What if, you know?
And oh, that was so hard, justand you're thinking the same
thing.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
You're trying to put in his perspective?
Speaker 3 (14:51):
yeah, but it was really in your thoughts as well
yeah, sure, and, like the kids,don't even know what's happening
.
They knew of the diagnosis butnobody knows and just thinking
how brutal, like how it's goingto hit the kids and, oh my God,
yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
How did the kids handle that three-year period
where he was ill?
Speaker 3 (15:10):
You know each differently, of course.
My oldest was, you know, prettyfar into college and you know
pretty far into college and, uh,you know he's an oldest, he's a
firstborn, so he just took careof business and did his thing.
And my second one flounderedand he still, kind of honestly,
he, you know, went off tocollege during COVID and then
(15:30):
that didn't work and came homeand then he went back again and
then John was diagnosed, throughall of this, but then, you know
, went first semester, came home, second semester, went back
again, and then john wasdiagnosed, through all of this,
but then, you know, he wentfirst semester, came home.
Second semester went back inthe fall, but that's when john
was actively dying, and that'sthe fall, yeah, home.
And then, you know, it was likeback and forth, right still in
that place, he's, yeah, beemotionally, but he's still like
(15:51):
kind of fragmented, yeah, yeahand then my daughter went off
the rails.
She was.
He was so tight with all of thekids, but it was the and they
did volleyball.
He coached all of her stuff,they, she's a.
He was a volleyball player andhe coached and he went to
college where we went to collegewhere we met.
(16:12):
Oh yeah, are called thevolleyball for him and so she
went off the rails.
She was a disaster, it was hard.
And then my youngest you know,I had him in therapy the whole
time because I could controlthat.
The rest of them were teenagers.
This one I'm like we're goingin and yeah, so we started it
(16:34):
from nine when, yeah it, and hejust stayed.
I think that just helped him somuch because for a couple years
after john died so he was likeI don't think I need this
anymore.
I'm like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
So you had multiple layers of grief, because you not
only had your own to deal with,but while you were caring for
john, he was grieving as well.
He was grieving the life he wasno longer going to have.
So you were grieving your loss,you were grieving his loss, and
then you were grieving each ofyour children's losses as well,
(17:08):
and women are especially good atstuffing their own needs and
emotions and feelings.
Did you have a point in timewhere it looked like your kids
had kind of settled a bit andall of your emotions just kind
of came right back in full force?
Speaker 3 (17:25):
I have a habit that I learned with my children,
because you suffer grief whenyou, your children, are
diagnosed with a disease wherethey're probably outlive you
there.
I am just a I power throughthings until I was compared to
like a rain barrel, and when thebarrel like gets so full you
can't do one more thing, it'sgoing to collapse and just fall.
(17:47):
I I've always I trained myselfand it just works for me.
I will.
In the middle of the night wheneverybody's gone to sleep, I
have like certain songs that Ilisten to different songs for
John than I did for my childrenand I would just go and like put
headphones on in the dark ofthe night when nobody was around
, and just cry and cry and cry,and cry and cry and cry.
(18:08):
No more tears left.
And then I'd be like, okay, therain barrels empty.
Now I can get back to life.
That's how I've always done it.
So I did the same, I did thesame, I.
When John was diagnosed, I justthere was a song that I just
used.
Oh, it was terrible, it was.
I just struck me.
I was like, oh, my God, Icouldn't remember what it was,
but it just came into my head.
(18:29):
Chicago, if you leave me now,oh yes.
I don't know why that song was.
I mean, it's obviously abreakup song, but I would just
go in my in a room.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I just provoked the right emotion when you needed it
.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah, it did, and I would just listen to it over and
over again Like come back.
Okay, yeah, I'm back and do it.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
So yeah, now, when you talk about self-care and
everything, there are those thatwould think inflicting pain on
yourself is not self-care.
But you inflicted that pain sothat you would cry, so that you
would release the emotion.
Yes, and it was that release,that was the self-care.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
Yeah, the pain, that's true.
Yeah, it was just somethingthat I you know I'm just kind of
known as being a tough nuggetand I'll.
I've just been that way mywhole life and I will.
But I understand the value ofit and feeling me, but I'm also
a little bit of a control freak,so I control when they happen.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
But kind of like ripping the Band-Aid off.
You know it's going to hurt alot when you rip it off, but
afterward there's going to besome relief, that's right, and
afterward the wound will heal alittle better.
So I just wanted to clarifythat for our listeners that were
thinking well, why would youwant to make yourself cry?
But that's why you explained itvery well with the analogy of
the rain barrel as well.
Now you mentioned something alittle bit ago about a group
(19:56):
called Women who Wine, but it'sW-I-N-E.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Tell me about that.
Women who Wine?
Yes, so when John died I wentto all of.
I up catholic and, but I don'thave a strong affinity for
religion.
I'm very spiritual and Ibelieve in a higher power, but I
don't anyway.
It's a whole another topic.
But I tried all of the griefshares and the all the things
(20:21):
and I tried my sister would gowith me and even the ones that
said they weren't like superchurchy, but it was like they
all offered that same thing andit was all like.
I just felt like people were solike stuck in their grief and I
didn't see people trying to moveforward with it and and learn
to live with it in a healthy way, and so none of that's what I
(20:43):
was looking for.
I tried a lot so I just gave upand I got introduced to someone
who is amazing.
She's a certified griefcounselor with.
The program is called griefrecovery and that's exactly what
you do.
You work through it, you workthrough all the things and you
just come to a healthy place ofliving with it.
You're never going to, it'snever going to be gone.
You're going to have the grieffor your life and so you do
(21:07):
figure out how to live with itin a healthy way, and so I still
work with her.
She's a life coach too, so wedon't talk about grief so much
anymore.
Sometimes we do when it comesup.
One of my friends described itas like the waves like you don't
know when the waves are goingto hit.
They're going to hit sometimeand they will, and in just over
time then maybe the waves get alittle smaller and they're not
(21:28):
like slamming around anymore,but they'll got to know how to
handle it.
And so I started working withher.
But then, North of Atlanta, it'sbig area in the suburbs and we
have this great big mom'sFacebook group and some I kept
seeing several women that wereyounger women too lost my
(21:48):
husband, Are there any resourcesfor me?
And every single person justlisted those same exact groups
and I was like, oh, like there'sgotta be something else.
And so I just kind of get myhead spinning obsessively
sometimes, and it was obsessivebecause I just was like I got to
do something.
I got to do something Right, Iwanted it to be.
Those are.
They serve their purpose, right, they serve their purpose.
(22:10):
They're great for people who itmatches and I had discovered
because at this point.
It was February 2023, John diedin November 2021.
And what y'all discover, I think, as widows, is your friends
rally around you a lot thecouple friends and all that
stuff but eventually everybodygoes back to live in their lives
.
And you're now.
(22:31):
You don't really fit in thesingle women scene because
they're talking about how muchthey hate their ex-husbands and
you don't really fit in thecouple scene because you're like
a third wheel, a fifth wheel,whatever.
So where's your space?
Right, my space on the couchwatching Netflix with my sister.
So I was like there's got to besomething for us to live a
(22:53):
shared experience.
So right, but I wanted it tohave that social vibe.
It's not, but it's a.
It's a group of women thatsupport each other when the
grief hits.
But that's not our point, ourpoint of have.
I call it finding the bestfriends you never knew you
needed, because we just are.
Everybody is.
It's such an easy relationshipin most cases because of that
(23:14):
shared experience.
You know right, just put it outthere on that facebook page, in
my own facebook page, and saidI'm, I'm starting this group
called widows who whine, and ifanybody wants to come, just come
on over to my house.
And 14 women showed up thatfirst night.
Oh my gosh, yeah, and it was apouring horribly torrential rain
and I must have a lot offriends on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Well.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
I do that.
Roswell moms group has like9,000 members.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
I, 14 women showed up and and, uh, yeah, and now you
know, I plan one social thing amonth and sometimes we do, like
I did, a home maintenanceone-on-one so we could all learn
how to take care of our housesproactively.
Planning one-on-one and stufflike that we do, but mostly
social.
We do fun stuff wine tastingsor ax throwing or pottery, you
(24:05):
know all kinds of fun stuff.
But the other cool thing is now, with all these women in it
there's 300 and almost 350 women.
There's zhong and there's bookclubs and there's cornhole
groups and there's, you know,widows who golf, widows who dine
, widows who all the stuff likeoh my goodness, offshoots of
yeah, that's incredible, so fun.
And so then I had all thesepeople reaching out to me in
(24:27):
other States, cause I do have abig Facebook presence and you'll
have something like this inPhilly or New York or Oklahoma
or Florida, and so that got methinking again.
So I actually have been workingwith an app developed for
almost two years now and it's ifI keep wanting it to be perfect
before I fully launch it.
it's in the doors but, I'm notlike pushing it hard right now
(24:49):
because I'm still tweaking.
They're still like, oh, wedon't like that and I don't like
this, and I just need to justdo it.
But so that you know we'll becoming out.
Well, it's out, but it'll be.
And is that also?
Women who wine, widows who LineIn, and that's the whole.
(25:10):
It's actually very muchdesigned like a dating app,
because you put on your thingsyou like and build a profile and
you can do the littlegeographical thing, like if I'm
going to LA, I can look up inany widow area and I can just go
and you know you have abuilt-in group wherever you go.
Wow, yeah, it's really fun.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
It's really cool, wow , and I also know that you have
written a book.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Yes, what's about that?
Yeah, so my husband was afinancial advisor and obviously
we knew it wasn't going to endwell when he got diagnosed with
glioblastoma and he was veryproactive.
We had a team, we had a CFPlawyer all the things.
He had a full team at hisoffice.
We had a CFP lawyer all thethings.
He had a full team at hisoffice.
And when he died, there wasstill things that we didn't have
set up right, because you don'tknow until you know, and a lot
(25:55):
of things.
However, the title of the bookis called Where's the Key to the
Safe, because I didn't knowwhere the freaking key to the
safe was.
I was like we had three yearsto plan for this.
How do I not know where thefreaking key is?
And you know that was one ofthe things.
I was like man, how do peopledo this?
If it's another one of my braingets going?
I knew it was coming Like weknew you had three years to plan
(26:18):
and a team and a successfulbusiness, like all these things.
If your husband dies in a caraccident on the way to work, you
know how do you do this.
And so my nephew actuallyworked for my husband.
He's also a financial planner.
He went through all of it withme when John died and so he
co-wrote the book with me andit's so awesome.
It just launched a couple ofweeks ago.
(26:40):
And when John died I'm not a fanof any of the financial stuff
and he tried and tried and triedand I was like, no, that's your
job and I'm lowered.
But I started readingeverything when he died because
I didn't want anybody to takeadvantage of me.
I was going to know my stuff.
Well, those books are so boringand I was just like, oh my God,
(27:00):
the topic is boring, but alsothe writing is boring, the
visuals are boring.
So I wanted my book to bereally pretty and the fonts to
be aesthetically pleasing, andwe have graphics.
One of my nephew's friends isour graphic designer.
She did some graphics to makeit all really.
It's meant to be reallypleasing to the eye, very easy,
(27:21):
and the whole vibe is meant tofeel like you're sitting down
with your girlfriend havingcoffee.
And I have a joke.
I'm like when I was pregnant Iread the book um, girlfriend's
guide to pregnancy.
I'm like, yes, girlfriend'sguide to widowhood, guide to
your spouse dying.
I wanted it to have that vibe,though that you're hanging out
with your friends and talkingabout things, and so each
(27:45):
chapter we cover everything fromlike words and keys to the safe
to right continuation plan,because we did have to figure
out how to do.
Yeah, and so his name isCameron and obviously I'm Pam,
so every chapter it starts withPam and I give an anecdotal
story about that particulartopic, if it's or umbrella
(28:05):
policies or you know whatever.
Pam comes in and gives theprofessional perspective.
It's really cool.
And then we have a workbookthat goes along with it.
So the ideally if you're bothwork your way through the whole
book, you can literally liketake that workbook to your
whatever have it proactively sothat when your person dies,
whether it's a sibling or aparent or anyone you're
(28:27):
financially connected to, youcan focus on honoring them and
focus on your grief versus thebusiness of death, because it's
so impossible to make thosekinds of decisions when you're
in fog.
It's impossible.
So that's the whole point inwriting the book and gotten
really great feedback frompeople on it and how easy it
easy it is to read.
(28:47):
And my very first and I gotfrom a friend of a friend was oh
, my god, I feel like I'msitting down having coffee with
her.
I was like, yay, exactly whatyou wanted.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, oh, that's super.
That's super.
Well, I know it's going to seemlike you have done nothing but
talk, but we both talk.
Yes, yes, we did.
And this is the point in thepodcast where I turn the
microphone over to my guest andlet my guest just speak directly
to the listeners without meinterrupting with questions.
(29:18):
So I'm going to pass themicrophone to you.
Make sure you tell people wherethey can find your book.
Repeat the title, tell them alittle bit about the new app so
they can start looking for it,and just you know the floor is
yours.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
Okay, well, thank you so much.
First of all, I'm really.
This has been such a pleasurejust talking with you and
getting to know you and justbeing able to share my story.
I just think it's, it's anhonor.
So, thank you, I will say okay.
So widows who wine I have awebsite, widows who winecom, and
you can find everything there.
And the widows who wine app isin the app store, in both Google
(29:57):
and the app store, and whatelse I have.
I actually just started apodcast of my own, and so I have
two.
I do is telling you about mycoffee, cancer and cocktails,
where we right, we chronicledour entire journey with
glioblastoma, from diagnosisuntil the end, and not into a
(30:17):
podcast.
That's already in all theplatforms Spotify, apple and
everything.
And then I launched another onelast week called the lost love
stories, and that's really aboutI've talked to a lot of widows
about this too People, after youknow not very long, stop
talking about your person andcause they just don't know how
to talk about the people who aredead, and when they do, they
sort of glorify everything, sothe real person is lost.
(30:41):
So this podcast will talk notjust to widows, but like my
sonake is going to be my firstguest, actually did an intro
episode last week and jake losthis best friend, blake, in a
snowboarding accident.
So we're gonna, yeah, so youknow he lost his dad, yeah, and
it's terrible.
So we, it's just anyone.
You've lost just a chance tochronicle that story the the
(31:03):
good, the ugly, the challenges,the things you know what that's
going to be about.
And then, of course, my bookwhere's the key to the ugly, the
challenges, the things you knowwhat that's going to be about?
And then, of course, my bookwhere's the key to the safe,
which is on Amazon and prettymuch anywhere you can buy books.
Now, you just have to be supercareful and because it's Amazon,
you have to be specific.
Until I have 100 reviews, whichI think we're at about 50
(31:24):
something.
When you get to a hundred, yougo into their algorithm, but
until then you have to bespecific.
And if you put, where is thekey to the safe has to be
where's the workbook?
Is there too, but it has to bewhere's the key to the safe
workbook?
Yeah, so specific, buthopefully we'll be up to our 100
(31:45):
reviews soon and we'll be inthere.
But we did hit the bestselleron it.
We did oh, that's excellent,the bestseller and the new
released bestseller and all thatstuff.
So we got that stuff.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
So I think that's it, my podcast all right, my busy
lady, kudos to you, kudos, um,for your legacy work.
Uh, because that's what it is.
I didn't know your book, thecommunity of widows who whine,
your app, everything Kudos, yeah.
So, listeners, this is the time, of course, now you know.
(32:15):
What's coming next is I have tosign off, and I have to tell
you that, as you know, I sayevery time that the contact
information, links andeverything for Pam will be in
the podcast notes.
So don't worry, if you didn'thave a pen handy, you don't have
to listen to the whole episodeagain.
I wouldn't do that to youunless you want to listen to it
(32:36):
again.
You can just look at thepodcast notes and you'll find
all the contact informationthere, and they should all be
live links so you can just clickon them and it'll take you
right to her website, and Iencourage you to do that.
Pam has great information.
I have no doubt that her bookis delightful to read.
I think you know the one careerthat you might have after you
(33:00):
go through grief period anddealing with paperwork and all
that is.
You probably could become adetective or a personal
investigator, because that'swhat it winds up being.
You have to do so much work inthat vein, remember also to take
care of yourselves.
You heard Pam's story of herself-care sobbing, crying in the
middle of the night in responseto a song, a song with a theme,
one for her husband, one foreach child, things like that.
(33:23):
It may sound like you'reinflicting pain, but you're not.
You're prompting a release ofemotions, and we all know that
the more times you tell thestory, the more times you cry,
yell, scream, get the emotionsout of your body, the easier it
is to move forward, and moveforward is what we all need to
(33:43):
do, for sure.
So take care of yourselves, andI hope you'll find time again
to come back for the nextepisode, as we all continue to
live and grieve.
Thanks again, pam.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Thank you so much for listening with us today.
Do you have a topic that you'dlike us to cover or do you have
a question from one of ourepisodes?
Please email us at info atasiliveandgrievecom and let us
know.
We hope you will find a momentto leave a review, send an email
and share with others.
Join us next time as wecontinue to live and grieve
(34:19):
together.
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