June 14, 2023 • 38 mins
From biomes to nests, WoodWoseWulf’s research as a Silph Road Scientist offers an inside look at the mysteries of Pokémon GO’s habitat system. His work with Niantic Wayfarer and Open Street Map has been instrumental in enhancing the game’s landscape through new PokéStops and Gyms. This episode delves into his dedication to improving the Pokémon GO community and creating a richer gameplay experience for trainers across Australia.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Hernandez (00:00):
My name is David Hernandez and you're
(00:01):
listening to As The PokeballTurns! Welcome to As The
(00:45):
Pokeball Turns.
Where the stories are real andpeople still play this game.
Over on the Silph Road, thereexisted a group of people known
as the Silph Research Group, whodevoted their time to studying
unexplained mechanics, rumorsand mysteries in Pokemon Go.
With the recent announcement ofthe Silph Road closing its
doors, the future of the groupis currently unknown.
(01:05):
However, the group's importancecan't be understated because
they were constantly looking atthe percentages of different
mechanics within Pokemon Go,such as Lucky trades, hatch
rates, and even discovering thatraid bosses were easier to catch
later in the encounter.
And these aren't ancedotes orfeelings that you would commonly
see on like Reddit, Twitter,Facebook, et cetera.
The Silph Research group usednumerous experiments and
(01:28):
collected data sometimes foreven months before recording
their findings and releasing'emto the public.
My guest for this episode is aformer member of the Silph
Research group and is here toshare his insight into his
experience and interest inparticipating in this section of
Pokemon Go.
Here's his origin story into theworld of Pokemon Go.
This is WoodWoseWulf! Today I'mjoined by WoodWoseWulf.
(01:52):
Welcome to the show.
WoodWoseWulf (01:54):
Hi, David.
It's great to be here.
David Hernandez (01:56):
Without a doubt, man, and I think out of
all the guests that I've had sofar, I think you're probably one
of the most technical people whoknow the behind the scenes of
Pokemon Go, if that makes sense.
WoodWoseWulf (02:07):
Yeah, I think it depends what you're talking
about, don't ask me about PVP,but depending on the topic, I
can definitely fill you in onsome stuff a lot of players
might not know.
David Hernandez (02:16):
One thing that I was impressed by is your
dedication to Wayfarer, andwe're gonna dive into more of
this later, but you're sodedicated to Wayfarer, that you
actually stopped in the middleof a vacation with your wife to
submit a way spot, right?
WoodWoseWulf (02:29):
yes.
Yeah.
In the most southwestern pointof Western Australia, which was
pretty exciting.
I actually got a few in there.
It's nice to leave my mark onthe game map down that part of
Australia.
David Hernandez (02:40):
Like how did that conversation happen with
your wife?
Like you were just like, honey,can we just stop?
Cause I see something eligibleright then and there and like go
nominate it?
WoodWoseWulf (02:47):
Look, I call her Mrs.
Wolf and she's great.
She's very, very patient withme.
Quite often she'll point thingsout to me and be like, is that
in the game?
And she's a Pokemon trainer aswell, but, as you know, not
everything shows up, so I'mconstantly flicking out of the
Wayfarer app and the ingressintel map just to make sure
things are there or they need tobe submitted.
She's really, really patientwith me of that sort of stuff.
David Hernandez (03:08):
Does she understand like what you're
doing and everything?
WoodWoseWulf (03:11):
I think she understands more than she would
like to, mostly just because oflectures and discussions we've
had about it over time.
David Hernandez (03:19):
Okay.
Okay.
did y'all start playing PokemonGo at the same time?
WoodWoseWulf (03:22):
We did! We were actually in the beta together in
Australia.
So we started the beta back inApril 2016.
We worked really, really hard iningress before that to get up to
level eight, which we sort ofthought would be the threshold
for that and we went throughthat whole process together.
David Hernandez (03:38):
To be fair, I always feel like all of
Australia is in the beta versionwith how Niantic treats y'all.
WoodWoseWulf (03:42):
Yeah, we never really left that field test
period.
David Hernandez (03:47):
So outta curiosity, was there any
difference between the beta andwhat we'd eventually get at the
launch of Pokemon Go?
WoodWoseWulf (03:53):
There definitely was.
Early on, the game was even morebasic than it was at launch, so
even the teams didn't havenames.
I originally joined what wascalled Red Team.
Things like spawns werecompletely different in that you
could actually see where thespawn points were.
If you go back and Google betaimages of the game, you can see
little glowing puddles on theground and that's where Spawn
(04:14):
points occurred, and it wasalmost a one-to-one match with
what Ingress had for xm, whichis where you gather energy to do
your actions in the game.
There was definitely a bigdiscrepancy in Spawns.
Niantic, to their credit, hasactually done a lot to improve
the spawn rates in rural areas.
One of the first things I didwhen the game came out was go
out into my local state forest,and it was so disappointing
(04:36):
because there was just nothingthere, there was no glowing
puddles, no Pokemon at all.
And over the years it's reallyimproved a lot.
Also the footstep tracker wasthere, but it actually displayed
distance early on, so you couldactually see the Pokemon around
you and there would be a littleindicator that you know, the
Pidgeys 10 meters away, theRattata is 20 meters away, which
is really cool.
And even differences, like themap, the buildings were
(04:58):
displayed completelydifferently, so they actually
looked a lot more likebuildings.
They stood almost as high as youplay a character.
So there were little differencesand as the beta went on, there
was changes as well that sort ofbrought the game further from
what we saw in the originaldemos before the game was even
available to anyone at all.
David Hernandez (05:17):
So when you mentioned the, distance
tracking, was it similar to whatwe saw, I don't know if you saw
the commercials when thecommercials, they'd have the
Pokemon and they'd have thedistance of how far it was.
Was that kind of what you weretalking about?
WoodWoseWulf (05:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was a lot closer to that.
So you'd open up the nearby andanyone who played in 2016
probably remembers the footstepsdistance, where you had the
little three paws, the two paws,or the one paw.
It was that, but it was evenmore in depth.
So you actually got a meterdistance based on where the
Pokemon was.
David Hernandez (05:46):
Now what's interesting is you said the
puddles, so the puddles, whatare they, like, almost like mini
portals to where the Pokemonwould just summon up when you
get close.
Was that kind of what it was?
WoodWoseWulf (05:55):
Yeah, so even today, Pokemon appearance set
points on the map, so whatpeople call spawn points.
In the beta, that was allactually visible, and I'm not
sure whether that was ever theintention or whether it was just
some part of the debuggingprocess that Niantic had.
I actually found it reallyuseful because you knew,
especially in more rurallocations, whether it was worth
(06:15):
going out to somewhere to seewhether the Pokemon occurred or
not, because there were plentyof places where just Pokemon
didn't appear at all, especiallyin the early days.
David Hernandez (06:23):
So you start Pokemon Go on day one, what was
it like playing at that point?
WoodWoseWulf (06:28):
It was really exciting, day one, especially,
you know, getting out there andI was in Sydney at the time
because I was at work and yousaw the gym turnover going
absolutely crazy.
I started with Bulbasaur.
A lot of the field testers inour region all decided to go
team instinct and for the firstcouple of weeks we just
absolutely dominated the gameboard because we knew what was
(06:49):
going on while everyone else wasstill sort of working everything
out.
It was a lot of fun and justcoming from the field test where
it was very quiet and there wasvery limited number of people
playing and just all of a suddenseeing everything just explode
with activity.
It was amazing.
David Hernandez (07:02):
Did you and your wife choose the same team?
WoodWoseWulf (07:04):
We did.
Yes.
We've always been Instinct.
I think being the underdogs, yousort of get that beaten into
you, um, you know, instinct forlife pretty much.
David Hernandez (07:15):
Yeah, you gotta be very dedicated if you decide
to be team instinct because Idon't know, it's very difficult
to hold onto gyms, especiallyback in those days when the gym
system was more to where onlyselect people could really be
involved with it.
WoodWoseWulf (07:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
And especially because coinswere based on how many gyms
you're holding when you claimthem.
A lot of the team instinctpeople early on around where I
play, made efforts to find gymshidden in national parks or way
out of the way or where peoplego.
We all went out there and claimthem to make sure that everyone
got their coins and weren'tkicked out by the end of each
(07:48):
day.
It was actually reallyinteresting.
I remember one particular timewhen there was a quarry that was
abandoned and there was a gym Ithink it was a nature
regeneration sign.
And we all went out there at11:00 AM to claim it.
We were wondering around in theAustralian bush with torches on
our phones just to make sureeveryone got their coins for the
day.
David Hernandez (08:08):
It sounds like y'all were very coordinated.
WoodWoseWulf (08:10):
Yeah.
Yeah, like there weren't many ofus, which I think made it
easier, especially being teaminstinct.
It was really, really fun and itwas a great vibe for the first
few weeks when everyone wasstill there and, you know, we
had come through the field testtogether.
A lot of those people havedropped off over time now, but
it's still something I remembervery, very fondly.
David Hernandez (08:29):
What was it about Pokemon Go that appealed
to you?
WoodWoseWulf (08:32):
To me it was almost like the fulfillment of a
childhood dream.
I started with Pokemon Red and Igrew up in a small country town
in Western Australia.
My friends and I would oftenwalk around in the bush,
essentially what, a lot ofpeople would call the outback
and would look at piles of sandand be like,"oh, Sandshrew might
live there", or would go collecttadpoles and be like, Poliwag
(08:53):
probably around here if Pokemonwas real." When Pokemon Go was
announced, it just seemed like,wow, this is just the
fulfillment of a childhooddream, if that makes sense.
David Hernandez (09:03):
Right.
It sounded like instead ofliving the game through, you
know, the handheld series or themain series, that you actually
got to experience it and be ableto find Pokemon, where you go to
on a daily day basis.
WoodWoseWulf (09:15):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think that was the most
exciting thing about me forPokemon Go.
I read an early interview withJohn Hanky where he was talking
about even having different soiltypes affect the type of Pokemon
that could appear, and that wasjust so cool to me.
David Hernandez (09:31):
So you said you started playing Pokemon Red.
Did you stick with the Pokemonfranchise throughout the entire
time or did you tailor off?
WoodWoseWulf (09:37):
Off and on.
I played red, and then I playedsilver, and I loved silver.
I thought it was even as ayoungster, I kind of recognized
how ambitious it was for a GameBoy game.
I left home very, very young andI sort of missed gen three, but
then I came back and ever sincethen, Pokemon has been really,
really important in my life.
David Hernandez (09:58):
Oh, what's your favorite Pokemon?
WoodWoseWulf (09:59):
it might sound a little bit weird, but I love
Oddish and I also love all thelittle round plant babies.
I dunno what it is, whether it'stheir dumb faces or that they're
a little bit different, but Ireally, really love those sorts
of Pokemon,
David Hernandez (10:12):
So any grass types that have like a round
face like Sunkern?
WoodWoseWulf (10:15):
Yeah, sunkern, Hoppip, Cottonee, all those
sorts of Pokemon.
David Hernandez (10:18):
That is such a unique take.
I like it.
So what's your primary way tolike play the game?
WoodWoseWulf (10:24):
It is probably quite unique, but my favorite
way to play this game is to loadup some incense, find a hiking
trail that's just on the edge ofmobile reception, cell phone
reception, and just go for ahike and see what appears.
I think that's really, reallyinteresting when you can be out
in the woods or walking along abeach, maybe walking along a
(10:45):
cliffside or in some way thatyou've never been before, and
just experiencing what Pokemonappear there.
David Hernandez (10:51):
It's definitely a lot of fun because usually I
take my dogs to, uh, we havestate parks here in Texas.
I'll take my dogs to like arandom trail right outside of
the city area and it's so quiet,hardly anybody's around, and I
always enjoy seeing.
You don't see as manyunfortunately, but it's always
fun to just walk the trail.
It's quiet and you encounter aPokemon, it can be anything.
(11:12):
That was my hope for what thegame could be that you could
kind of go into like more natureareas and to be able to
experience the game the same wayyou know, we grew up with, in
regards to both the games andeven with Ash Ketchum in the
main series.
He got to go to random placesand you just find Pokemon no
matter where you were.
WoodWoseWulf (11:28):
Yeah, that's the fantasy, right?
Like I think every kid at somepoint in their life kind of
imagined doing that.
Just going out adventuring inthe wilderness, going to
different places and tellingtheir own story In the Pokemon
world.
Some of the Pokemon I have thatI hold most fondly, don't have
the highest IVs or aren't shiny,they're just Pokemon that I
(11:48):
found at certain places doingcertain things, and I associate
them with those events and thoseplaces, and I don't think anyone
could really take that away fromme.
David Hernandez (11:58):
You were actually a scientist at the
Silph research group, is thatcorrect?
WoodWoseWulf (12:01):
That's correct.
Yeah.
David Hernandez (12:03):
First off, what is the Silph research group?
WoodWoseWulf (12:06):
The Silph research group is essentially a citizen
science group.
So, volunteers come in from allover the world, they don't have
to have qualification, we takeeveryone, as long as they're
honest with their contributionsand they collect data about
Pokemon Go.
It's probably the largestcitizen science group dedicated
to a video game in the world, Iwould be fairly confident to say
(12:28):
that, yeah, there's thousandsand thousands of members and
everyone contributes data aboutshiny rates, about encounters,
about item drops.
And what we do is we collatethat information and it's
published on the Silver Roadwebsite to help the community,
so that's either through theautomated pages that contribute
to what species are nesting,shiny rates, rocket encounters,
(12:51):
or articles.
When we do articles, we do realbig, deep dives and look at how
mechanics work and on a really,really microscopic level.
David Hernandez (13:01):
Do you know how long these type of researches
would take?
it sounds like you'll go intovery big detail, but like, How
long is a typical research andwhat does it entail normally?
WoodWoseWulf (13:10):
Typically you'd be looking at months and months.
One of the problems with theSilph research group was
originally structured was thatwe would spend a lot of time
gathering data and the gamewould change over time.
Because Pokemon Go is, you know,you've gotta be on the
precipice, you've gotta bepublishing what's important to
people at that particular time,we've really had to refine how
(13:32):
things are done, and that's whywe moved to pages that are
actually refreshed out of thedata that research group is
gathering at that particulartime.
With an article you could belooking at anywhere from a month
to three months, but the numberof people hours that go into it
is hundreds, if not thousands.
David Hernandez (13:49):
Oh, geez.
Dang.
WoodWoseWulf (13:49):
Yeah.
David Hernandez (13:50):
So y'all very extensive when it comes to
trying to find out about thisgame?
WoodWoseWulf (13:54):
Yeah, absolutely, it's something that the Silph
research group is very, verypassionate about and without
that passion, I don't think itwould actually be possible.
David Hernandez (14:04):
I mean, if you're doing hundreds and
hundred hours of research on amobile game, then I would be
strong to disagree on that,
WoodWoseWulf (14:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
David Hernandez (14:12):
So what was your role in regards to, like,
how were you involved with theself research group?
WoodWoseWulf (14:16):
I started with the Silph research group in May,
2017.
The research group had existedsince before Pokemon Go launched
and as with a lot of communitiesthat started in 2016, a lot of
people who started in themturned over, leaders left, the
community changed, and one ofthe early things that I was
(14:36):
really focused on, as I movedinto a leadership position
there, refreshing the people whoare at the top with absolute
respect for what those peopledid early on, but they weren't
there anymore or they didn'tnecessarily have the time.
So bringing in a new diverseleadership, working out how to
publish faster, and also comingup with ways to get the
(14:57):
information to the community inmeaningful ways, if that makes
sense.
David Hernandez (15:02):
Right, so you're basically trying to build
on past re well not build onpast research, you're trying to
respect it, but you're alsohaving to develop new findings
WoodWoseWulf (15:09):
New findings and also new structures, because the
Silph research group isn't justabout the publications, it's
about having a structure, thatactually can make those
publications as well.
It's about making rules, makingboundaries, ensuring that your
community's diverse and covers awide range of experiences, and
also has the skills to actuallyfulfill the requirements of what
(15:32):
the research group is aiming todo it as well.
David Hernandez (15:34):
It almost sounds like you had a part-time
job.
Are they paying you or is thisall volunteer
WoodWoseWulf (15:39):
Oh, David, there, there were times when like I, in
my real work life, I manage abusiness and there were times
when I was working eight to sixand then I was coming home doing
minor stuff with the researchgroup, setting an alarm, and
then getting up at 3:00 AM totalk to Drnopes who was one of
(16:01):
the founders of the Silph Road,making sure that he was across
what we were doing, getting hisopinions on things and Drnopes
has always been great.
Very, very supportive of theSilph Road and Pokemon Go in
general.
And yeah, it was a very, verybig commitment, I look back now
and I dunno how I did it.
I dunno where I found theenergy.
David Hernandez (16:18):
That's what I'm saying, dude, like you are a
manager, you know, managers workobviously more than the typical
eight hours, but you're workinglike, what, 10 to 12 hours, then
you're dedicating another onefourth of your time with the
Silph Road.
No, I mean, nothing wrong withthat, but dude, your schedule
was wonky for sure.
WoodWoseWulf (16:32):
for a couple of years it was, some of the other
scientists who were still activejust basically say You were
everywhere, I don't know how youdid it.
Honestly, I don't know either atthat point, but I just, feel
like Pokemon Go at that stage inmy life was just so important
and really, really motivated meand excited me.
I think that sort of acted as abit of a dynamo and just kept me
going.
(16:53):
One of the things theyimplemented to sort of help
soothe the transition from theold guard, so to speak, to the
newer scientists and thescientists who have come in
after that.
And when I say scientists, it'sa rank within the silver
research group, whichessentially a moderator,
somebody who handles thedecisions of the day-to-day
group.
Anyway, one of the things Iimplemented was an emeritus
(17:14):
status, which essentially meantthat you're still connected to
the group, but you're notnecessarily part of the
day-to-day operation.
That's something I've opted forat this stage in my life, in the
Silph Research group, where Ican sort of step away.
I can be that elderly gentlemanin a green sweater looking at
the paintings on the wallsgoing, Hmm, this is nice.
(17:36):
I, I don't, I don't have toactually have any
responsibility, but I can stillbe there if I'm needed.
David Hernandez (17:41):
It sounds like almost a legacy scientist group
for a lack a better
WoodWoseWulf (17:46):
Exactly.
And it's hard because sometimesyou wanna step in, but at the
same time you have to say, well,I've helped these people come up
through the ranks and I have tolet them fly on their own as
well.
Something very unique, I think,to the Silph research group in
that it extends outwards toother parts of people's lives,
and you teach them skills andthings that they take elsewhere
(18:08):
as well.
David Hernandez (18:09):
It's very difficult to pass things on and
I'm realizing that myself as acommunity leader within my area,
that with everything I do,right, and I look back and I'm
like, I can't do some of thestuff that I used to.
You know, some of the hands inthe dirt, trying to build things
up.
I mean, I know how to do it, butI can't give it the honest
effort that it deserves
WoodWoseWulf (18:28):
Right.
And that, that's exactly right.
Like it's about the honesty.
It's about the if you don't feelit anymore, sometimes it's
actually best to step aside, andit doesn't mean that you don't
like the game, it doesn't meanthat you don't like whatever
community you're in.
It just means that you're notdoing the best for it at that
particular time.
David Hernandez (18:46):
What made you want to transition to the role
you're in now?
WoodWoseWulf (18:50):
It was actually a slow process for me.
One of the things that I toldmyself early on was I was never
going to allow myself to becomeone of those names that's
holding the title, but notactually really doing much.
And that's, no hate to anyonewho came before me because they
all did a great job when theywere there.
(19:11):
But when you see somebody in anorganization like the Silph
research group who's saying I'ma Silph scientist, but they're
not actually active, it gives afalse impression of what the
group is capable of.
I didn't want to be deadweight,I didn't want to give the
impression,"Hey Wood's here, hecan handle that." over time I
felt like my motivation for thegame, in that regard of the
(19:34):
trying to understand how thegame works, were sinking and I
was playing the game in otherways that didn't necessarily gel
so well with the Silph ResearchGroup and its mission.
David Hernandez (19:44):
Sounds like a conflict of interest?
WoodWoseWulf (19:46):
I dunno if I'd call it a conflict of interest.
I wouldn't even say I outgrewit.
I think it's more that I wasready to just enjoy the game for
what it was and what it is asopposed to trying to peek behind
the curtain at everyopportunity, if that makes
sense.
David Hernandez (20:01):
Oh, that makes sense.
You're not interested in makingcupcakes, you're more interested
in just eating it.
WoodWoseWulf (20:04):
Exactly.
David Hernandez (20:06):
We're gonna take a quick break with a word
from our sponsors.
We'll be right back.
(22:44):
So how do you feel about yournew phase?
Like do you feel like you madethe correct choice?
WoodWoseWulf (22:49):
It's always hard when you see things happen and
you wanted to step in and belike, Hey, this is how I would
do it, but as I said, you, you,you kind of gotta let the people
who you trusted to take overyour role, actually take over
your role.
That's just a fact of life and Ithink that applies to a lot of
things, and it's a really greatlesson to learn and take away
from that situation.
David Hernandez (23:10):
Oh yeah, without a doubt and it's hard
too because you know, you put somuch time into it.
We're talking, we're not justtalking like a couple months.
You, this was part of yourPokemon Go journey for what,
five years?
WoodWoseWulf (23:20):
Yeah, it was part of my life like, it was like a
second job.
It was a reality for me.
So it's very, very hard to walkaway, but you've also gotta be
cognizant that when the timecomes, you've gotta do it.
Otherwise you become harmful.
David Hernandez (23:35):
Now I know one thing you're passionate about,
and I'm looking forward totalking about this.
It's the Biomes and Nest withPokemon Go.
WoodWoseWulf (23:41):
Yes,
David Hernandez (23:42):
Was that part of your research or is that just
a side project you had?
WoodWoseWulf (23:46):
it was actually something that drew me into the
research group in the firstplace and it's actually
something Drnopes and I talkedabout a lot as well, and
eventually he reached out to meand said,"Hey, I really want you
to focus on this wherever youcan in the research group." It's
very, very difficult thoughbecause biomes are incredibly
complex and it's something thatthe research group has never
(24:06):
really managed to work out ahundred percent.
And I think since seasons whenthings have become even more
complicated, you know, theychange every three months and
things are pulled in and out,and then you've got events all
over the place as well.
It becomes very, very difficultto understand.
Early on though, biomes was mymain motivation for trying to
understand this game when Ifirst started playing.
(24:29):
I live on the New South WalesCentral Coast and it's a very,
very geographically diverselocation, so I had access to a
huge number of different biomes,and it goes back to that story I
was telling about walkingthrough the Australian bush of
my friends and it's therealization of that fantasy.
I spent a lot of time standingon street corners on S two cell
(24:50):
lines, trying to work out whatthings were what, if that makes
sense.
Working out,"oh, Voltorb stopsspawning at this particular
point, and then Pidgey startsspawning here.
What does that mean?
And I think that still remainsone of the great mysteries of
Pokemon Go, especially earlyPokemon Go.
David Hernandez (25:08):
You know, it's funny you say that cuz it's,
hard for me to fathom thatthere's a mystery with this game
still, how much people dig intothe code, with how much people
play this game.
There are still things we don'tunderstand with this game.
WoodWoseWulf (25:20):
and I think in some ways that's almost art,
right?
It's not just, oh, this is thenumbers that appear.
It's something more than that.
it's something that's really,really exciting and it's also
something that only Pokemon Gocan offer or a game like Pokemon
Go.
On the other hand, nest, they'rea lot simpler, they're related
to open street map features likeparks, recreation grounds, even
(25:44):
farmland, grasslands.
And what would happen with Nestis every two weeks there would
be a migration and there wouldbe a set list of species of
Pokemon that could appear.
Basically the Pokemon wouldappear about 25% of the time in
that particular nest, so 25% ofall the spawn points there would
be that particular nestingspecies.
And that was something early onwhere communities shared that
(26:06):
information, which meant that,you got a lot of community
building out of those earlystages of that feature
David Hernandez (26:12):
Yeah, nowadays.
I mean, I always say this Nestdon't really, I don't wanna say
matter anymore, but because ofhow much they shift both
beginning and end, they canshift both times.
It's hard to keep up with them.
The game's more event driven,like it makes Nest almost
obsolete at this point, which isunfortunate.
WoodWoseWulf (26:29):
It is.
It is very, very unfortunate,especially because people will
put in the effort and they'llgo, you know, oh, this
particular nest is spawning thisspecies of Pokemon, and two days
later it's changed.
it's actually probably one ofthe most disappointing things, I
think with Pokemon Go thesedays.
The fact that it was a greatfeature that actually did help
(26:51):
build communities and encouragepeople to communicate with each
other, and it's something that'sbeen lost and I hope that as
Niantic starts to push the gameback to a more exercise and
exploration focus, that we mightsee a bit of resurgence in that,
but it's really gotta have thewill from Niantic to do that.
And they've really gotta see thevalue in it.
David Hernandez (27:13):
Do you have any ideas of what you would like to
see change when it comes tonest?
WoodWoseWulf (27:18):
Uh, I have a lot of ideas, one of the big things
for me would be seeingintegration with Campfire.
The Silph Nest Atlas was areally, really great resource
early on, I had, I think 115separate migrations recorded
before I stopped doing itBecause of events ruining the
way that reports worked, andquite often I would report
(27:41):
something and then I would get amessage from somebody three days
later saying, you're wrong.
It's this, and it's because anevents come in and it's changed
the whole spawn system at thatparticular location, it makes
the reporter look like they'renot necessarily accurate, and
that's something that's very,very important to me.
If you spend, your Thursdaynight driving around to 12 nests
(28:04):
and you try to impart thatinformation to your community,
and then three days laterthere's an event and the Nest
spawn pool changes andeverything shifts around.
People are relying on thatoriginal information you posted
but it's all wrong and thatreally breaks the faith in what
nests are, it breaks the faithin the people who are reporting
it, and it also breaks the offaith in any resources like The
(28:26):
Silph Nest Atlas, if that makessense.
Like I said, I'd love to seesome integration of Wayfarer
where somebody could maybereport the Nest and they will
stay relevant until there's amigration, so you could put a
flag up and it will just staythere and then as soon as
Niantic decides, I'm gonna havean event that changes Nest pools
fine, it disappears and thenpeople can go and report
(28:46):
something else.
Alternatively, you could dosomething similar to what
Wizards Unite did, where youactually had a flag in game and
it actually shows you Pidgey isnesting here, and it's just all
in game.
And that makes a lot more sense,it actually drives people to a
particular location without evenhaving to leave the app.
David Hernandez (29:03):
So speaking of Wayfarer, that's how you spend a
lot of time with the gamenowadays, right?
WoodWoseWulf (29:07):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Between open street map andWayfarer, I think actually
probably spend more time on thatside of things compared to
actually playing Pokemon codethese days.
David Hernandez (29:18):
Hey, no shame, somebody's gotta do it.
And Wayfair is
WoodWoseWulf (29:21):
Yeah.
David Hernandez (29:21):
So for people who are listening, like how does
Open Street Map and Wayfarerwork together?
WoodWoseWulf (29:26):
Open street map basically provides the base map
for Pokemon Go in terms of whatyou actually see on the game
map, so roads, green areas, blueareas for water, buildings,
nest, some biomes, it's a littlebit more sketchy in that area.
Wayfarer goes over the top ofthat and adds Pokestops and gyms
(29:47):
into Pokemon Go.
You have interactions such as exeligible gyms, in which case a
gym that sits within a level 20S-2 cell in a Green Park area
will pick up the ex eligibletag.
It is a little more complicatedthan that, but at a basic level,
you have that interactionbetween Open Street Map, whereas
(30:08):
something's mapped as a park andthen you have a gym out of
Wayfarer in that park, it willbe an EX-eligible gym.
David Hernandez (30:16):
Right, and this is important because a lot of
new areas that get developed, ifthey aren't updated on open
street map, then if you have agym, say in a park and it's not
labeled a park, it won't getthat ex tag.
WoodWoseWulf (30:27):
Yeah, you won't have the ex gyms, you won't have
nests.
You might have less spawns.
There's a lot of things that gointo it that if you don't have
an area well mapped an openstreet map at the time when
Niantic pulls the data, which isvery, very infrequent, then
you'll have a worse timecompared to a well mapped area.
There's a campus in Singapore,which is actually the student
(30:49):
residential campus at theUniversity of Singapore called U
Town.
It was mapped as a school andthere's thousands of students
who play Pokemon Go in that areaand they can't play in that
particular place.
David Hernandez (31:01):
Yes, because there's no spawns that will
spawn there, the only thing dois spin stops.
WoodWoseWulf (31:06):
You can spin stops and do raids, but there is
absolutely zero Pokemon thatwill appear there.
David Hernandez (31:11):
Exactly, and I think for us here in Dallas or
yeah, SMU, I think they finallygot the ability to have spawns
when some, they did the update,of course on open street map,
but it didn't get implementeduntil, I think maybe 2018, 2019
is when they finally had spawnsthat happened at that college.
WoodWoseWulf (31:27):
It takes a very, very long time and the few cases
where Niantic has actuallystepped in to intervene, it's
taken a lot of effort on behalfof the communities there in
particular locations.
I think the Seroni Gulf inGreece is a really good example
where they had to campaign, getarticles in Eurogamer across all
the gaming press before Nianticwould even do anything and
(31:50):
you're talking about an islandwhere there were no Pokemon that
appeared at all.
So you can't just go, oh, I'lljust go to the next town over.
You gotta get in a boat and goto Athens or something to even
play the game properly.
David Hernandez (32:01):
Yeah it's a bit of a commute to go on a boat.
WoodWoseWulf (32:03):
a bit of a trip.
David Hernandez (32:05):
Yeah, just a little bit.
WoodWoseWulf (32:05):
Just a little bit outta the way.
Don't worry.
David Hernandez (32:08):
So going to Wayfarer, what, what's it been
your experience like withworking with that system?
WoodWoseWulf (32:12):
It's both wonderful and extremely
frustrating.
In terms of wonderful, it'sgreat being able to fill out
areas and see places come tolife.
One of my favorite things to dois find somewhere that just has
no way spots at all a completeblank Canvas and fill it out.
(32:32):
Go out there, find everythingthat's really interesting, and
add poker stops, add gyms, andmake it somewhere really good to
play.
On the other hand, adding thingssometimes can be very, very
frustrating, and I understandthat both from a reviewer
perspective and from a submitterperspective, there are certain
things that could be improved inthe system.
In terms of from a submitterperspective, sometimes it feels
(32:56):
like you are almost treated likeyou're guilty until you're
proven innocent in that you haveto provide almost an
overwhelming amount of evidenceto prove that something exists,
especially in a rural area thatmight not have street view, And
on the other hand, sometimeswhen you're a reviewer, you're
just not given enoughinformation and I'm not sure
whether Niantic has reallypinned down the best way to
(33:17):
handle that yet.
David Hernandez (33:18):
It's a very difficult line to follow,
especially as a submitter,because whenever I see some of
the criticisms from the Wayfarercommunity, I feel like you
almost have to write an essay totry to get something approved
sometimes, and it's a lot ofhoops for me who is familiar
with the system to do.
I know how to do it because I'vedone Wayfarer for so long, but
we're talking about, I'm theminority.
(33:39):
The average person won't go intothat much detail because they've
got other things to take careof.
They don't really have time tosit down like me or even you, to
learn a system to try to getstuff approved.
WoodWoseWulf (33:50):
Exactly, and it's almost like learning some kind
of weird magical school whereyou have the main textbook, but
then you have to seek out thesecret text on the forums and
rid of the, be these threethings before you submit the way
spot, you know?
David Hernandez (34:08):
No, and that's what it feels like.
WoodWoseWulf (34:10):
Yeah.
I, I just wish the whole processwas a lot more simple so that
people in areas that aredisadvantage in a Wayfarer
sense, were able to engage withthe system more easily.
And at the same time, people whowere reviewing didn't have to
feel like every single personwho was submitting was trying to
game the system.
For Niantic, it's a challengeand coming from an open street
(34:33):
map background where I've done alot of moderation on the open
street map side, thegamification of a system where
people are trying to gainsomething for their own benefit
really drives a lot of very oddand sometimes inappropriate and
often inaccurate changes.
(34:53):
Whether it's Wayfarer or OpenStreet Map, people, when the
system is gamified, they're moreencouraged to add fake things
because it helps them.
David Hernandez (35:03):
What is it about Wayfarer and doing stuff
with Open Street Map thatappeals to you?
WoodWoseWulf (35:07):
I've always loved things like Sim City, I don't
know if that's a weird thing tosay, but just being able to fill
out an environment withartifacts and things and
customize a game map is justamazing and when you can do it
in reality, I think it just addsa whole nother dimension to
that.
David Hernandez (35:27):
I go back to the stuff that I submitted and
see how much I've been able tobuild up an area.
It gives you almost a sense ofpride like before this area was
empty and then you see it allwith Pokestops or gyms or
whatever have you, and then yourphotos on there and it has your
in-game trainer name is like,that's something that can never
really be taken away.
WoodWoseWulf (35:42):
Exactly! And I always like to imagine what
experiences people will havewith something you've added in
the future.
So, my brother got married inWestern Australia the same time
that I actually added theWayspots in the southwestern
point of Western Australia.
We stayed at this resort, whichwas in the middle of the Karri
Forest down near Pemberton, andI added multiple poker stops
(36:05):
down there.
I don't know who's ever gonnause them, I'm never gonna spin
them, I'm never gonna put aPokemon in that gym, but I just
like to imagine somebody willcome along someday and be like,
"oh, that's really cool.
I didn't expect anything to behere, but there it is." You
create experiences for otherpeople, which is just, something
very profound and very, veryinteresting and very, very
powerful to me.
(36:26):
It is all about stories andpeople building their own
personal narrative with the gamemap and getting out there and
exploring and exercising andexperiencing both the world
because obviously with Wayfarer,you are adding real artifacts
and real features and points ofinterest that people will
discover potentially because ofwhat you've done, but also
(36:46):
enhancing their gameplayexperience as well, which is,
it's amazing.
David Hernandez (36:51):
Absolutely, man! Well, WoodWoseWulf, that's
an interview.
Do you have any last minutewords for anybody listening?
WoodWoseWulf (36:57):
If anyone has any questions about Open Street Map,
feel free to reach out to me onTwitter.
My username is WoodWoseWulf witha U for the Wulf.
Alternatively, feel free to jointhe Silph science or whatever we
end up calling it Discord or theopen street map, world discord
as well, where there's a lot ofreally helpful people.
If you are in an area like I wasat the start of the game, that
(37:18):
has very few spawns and verylittle POIs, just stick with it.
Use friendship or whatever youcan to level up, and as we were
just saying, create your ownstory and create something that
other people can build off aswell.
It's very, very powerful andit's a great thing that you can
do to leave a legacy foryourself in Pokemon Go.
David Hernandez (37:38):
Absolutely, and you never know, you might find
yourself as a guest on As ThePokeball Turns, if you do.
Thank you for listening toanother episode of As The
Pokeball Turns.
You can subscribe to thispodcast on Apple, Spotify, or
your favorite podcast app.
If you wanna support the show,consider becoming a Patreon by
going topatreon.com/asthePokeballturns,
(37:59):
or by sharing the podcast withyour friends and family, and
I'll see you next time.
Here's the sneak peek for thenext episode of As The Pokeball
Turns.
My name is David Hernandez and you're
(00:01):
listening to As The PokeballTurns! Welcome to As The
(00:45):
Pokeball Turns.
Where the stories are real andpeople still play this game.
Over on the Silph Road, thereexisted a group of people known
as the Silph Research Group, whodevoted their time to studying
unexplained mechanics, rumorsand mysteries in Pokemon Go.
With the recent announcement ofthe Silph Road closing its
doors, the future of the groupis currently unknown.
(01:05):
However, the group's importancecan't be understated because
they were constantly looking atthe percentages of different
mechanics within Pokemon Go,such as Lucky trades, hatch
rates, and even discovering thatraid bosses were easier to catch
later in the encounter.
And these aren't ancedotes orfeelings that you would commonly
see on like Reddit, Twitter,Facebook, et cetera.
The Silph Research group usednumerous experiments and
(01:28):
collected data sometimes foreven months before recording
their findings and releasing'emto the public.
My guest for this episode is aformer member of the Silph
Research group and is here toshare his insight into his
experience and interest inparticipating in this section of
Pokemon Go.
Here's his origin story into theworld of Pokemon Go.
This is WoodWoseWulf! Today I'mjoined by WoodWoseWulf.
(01:52):
Welcome to the show.
WoodWoseWulf (01:54):
Hi, David.
It's great to be here.
David Hernandez (01:56):
Without a doubt, man, and I think out of
all the guests that I've had sofar, I think you're probably one
of the most technical people whoknow the behind the scenes of
Pokemon Go, if that makes sense.
WoodWoseWulf (02:07):
Yeah, I think it depends what you're talking
about, don't ask me about PVP,but depending on the topic, I
can definitely fill you in onsome stuff a lot of players
might not know.
David Hernandez (02:16):
One thing that I was impressed by is your
dedication to Wayfarer, andwe're gonna dive into more of
this later, but you're sodedicated to Wayfarer, that you
actually stopped in the middleof a vacation with your wife to
submit a way spot, right?
WoodWoseWulf (02:29):
yes.
Yeah.
In the most southwestern pointof Western Australia, which was
pretty exciting.
I actually got a few in there.
It's nice to leave my mark onthe game map down that part of
Australia.
David Hernandez (02:40):
Like how did that conversation happen with
your wife?
Like you were just like, honey,can we just stop?
Cause I see something eligibleright then and there and like go
nominate it?
WoodWoseWulf (02:47):
Look, I call her Mrs.
Wolf and she's great.
She's very, very patient withme.
Quite often she'll point thingsout to me and be like, is that
in the game?
And she's a Pokemon trainer aswell, but, as you know, not
everything shows up, so I'mconstantly flicking out of the
Wayfarer app and the ingressintel map just to make sure
things are there or they need tobe submitted.
She's really, really patientwith me of that sort of stuff.
David Hernandez (03:08):
Does she understand like what you're
doing and everything?
WoodWoseWulf (03:11):
I think she understands more than she would
like to, mostly just because oflectures and discussions we've
had about it over time.
David Hernandez (03:19):
Okay.
Okay.
did y'all start playing PokemonGo at the same time?
WoodWoseWulf (03:22):
We did! We were actually in the beta together in
Australia.
So we started the beta back inApril 2016.
We worked really, really hard iningress before that to get up to
level eight, which we sort ofthought would be the threshold
for that and we went throughthat whole process together.
David Hernandez (03:38):
To be fair, I always feel like all of
Australia is in the beta versionwith how Niantic treats y'all.
WoodWoseWulf (03:42):
Yeah, we never really left that field test
period.
David Hernandez (03:47):
So outta curiosity, was there any
difference between the beta andwhat we'd eventually get at the
launch of Pokemon Go?
WoodWoseWulf (03:53):
There definitely was.
Early on, the game was even morebasic than it was at launch, so
even the teams didn't havenames.
I originally joined what wascalled Red Team.
Things like spawns werecompletely different in that you
could actually see where thespawn points were.
If you go back and Google betaimages of the game, you can see
little glowing puddles on theground and that's where Spawn
(04:14):
points occurred, and it wasalmost a one-to-one match with
what Ingress had for xm, whichis where you gather energy to do
your actions in the game.
There was definitely a bigdiscrepancy in Spawns.
Niantic, to their credit, hasactually done a lot to improve
the spawn rates in rural areas.
One of the first things I didwhen the game came out was go
out into my local state forest,and it was so disappointing
(04:36):
because there was just nothingthere, there was no glowing
puddles, no Pokemon at all.
And over the years it's reallyimproved a lot.
Also the footstep tracker wasthere, but it actually displayed
distance early on, so you couldactually see the Pokemon around
you and there would be a littleindicator that you know, the
Pidgeys 10 meters away, theRattata is 20 meters away, which
is really cool.
And even differences, like themap, the buildings were
(04:58):
displayed completelydifferently, so they actually
looked a lot more likebuildings.
They stood almost as high as youplay a character.
So there were little differencesand as the beta went on, there
was changes as well that sort ofbrought the game further from
what we saw in the originaldemos before the game was even
available to anyone at all.
David Hernandez (05:17):
So when you mentioned the, distance
tracking, was it similar to whatwe saw, I don't know if you saw
the commercials when thecommercials, they'd have the
Pokemon and they'd have thedistance of how far it was.
Was that kind of what you weretalking about?
WoodWoseWulf (05:28):
Yeah.
Yeah.
It was a lot closer to that.
So you'd open up the nearby andanyone who played in 2016
probably remembers the footstepsdistance, where you had the
little three paws, the two paws,or the one paw.
It was that, but it was evenmore in depth.
So you actually got a meterdistance based on where the
Pokemon was.
David Hernandez (05:46):
Now what's interesting is you said the
puddles, so the puddles, whatare they, like, almost like mini
portals to where the Pokemonwould just summon up when you
get close.
Was that kind of what it was?
WoodWoseWulf (05:55):
Yeah, so even today, Pokemon appearance set
points on the map, so whatpeople call spawn points.
In the beta, that was allactually visible, and I'm not
sure whether that was ever theintention or whether it was just
some part of the debuggingprocess that Niantic had.
I actually found it reallyuseful because you knew,
especially in more rurallocations, whether it was worth
(06:15):
going out to somewhere to seewhether the Pokemon occurred or
not, because there were plentyof places where just Pokemon
didn't appear at all, especiallyin the early days.
David Hernandez (06:23):
So you start Pokemon Go on day one, what was
it like playing at that point?
WoodWoseWulf (06:28):
It was really exciting, day one, especially,
you know, getting out there andI was in Sydney at the time
because I was at work and yousaw the gym turnover going
absolutely crazy.
I started with Bulbasaur.
A lot of the field testers inour region all decided to go
team instinct and for the firstcouple of weeks we just
absolutely dominated the gameboard because we knew what was
(06:49):
going on while everyone else wasstill sort of working everything
out.
It was a lot of fun and justcoming from the field test where
it was very quiet and there wasvery limited number of people
playing and just all of a suddenseeing everything just explode
with activity.
It was amazing.
David Hernandez (07:02):
Did you and your wife choose the same team?
WoodWoseWulf (07:04):
We did.
Yes.
We've always been Instinct.
I think being the underdogs, yousort of get that beaten into
you, um, you know, instinct forlife pretty much.
David Hernandez (07:15):
Yeah, you gotta be very dedicated if you decide
to be team instinct because Idon't know, it's very difficult
to hold onto gyms, especiallyback in those days when the gym
system was more to where onlyselect people could really be
involved with it.
WoodWoseWulf (07:27):
Yeah, absolutely.
And especially because coinswere based on how many gyms
you're holding when you claimthem.
A lot of the team instinctpeople early on around where I
play, made efforts to find gymshidden in national parks or way
out of the way or where peoplego.
We all went out there and claimthem to make sure that everyone
got their coins and weren'tkicked out by the end of each
(07:48):
day.
It was actually reallyinteresting.
I remember one particular timewhen there was a quarry that was
abandoned and there was a gym Ithink it was a nature
regeneration sign.
And we all went out there at11:00 AM to claim it.
We were wondering around in theAustralian bush with torches on
our phones just to make sureeveryone got their coins for the
day.
David Hernandez (08:08):
It sounds like y'all were very coordinated.
WoodWoseWulf (08:10):
Yeah.
Yeah, like there weren't many ofus, which I think made it
easier, especially being teaminstinct.
It was really, really fun and itwas a great vibe for the first
few weeks when everyone wasstill there and, you know, we
had come through the field testtogether.
A lot of those people havedropped off over time now, but
it's still something I remembervery, very fondly.
David Hernandez (08:29):
What was it about Pokemon Go that appealed
to you?
WoodWoseWulf (08:32):
To me it was almost like the fulfillment of a
childhood dream.
I started with Pokemon Red and Igrew up in a small country town
in Western Australia.
My friends and I would oftenwalk around in the bush,
essentially what, a lot ofpeople would call the outback
and would look at piles of sandand be like,"oh, Sandshrew might
live there", or would go collecttadpoles and be like, Poliwag
(08:53):
probably around here if Pokemonwas real." When Pokemon Go was
announced, it just seemed like,wow, this is just the
fulfillment of a childhooddream, if that makes sense.
David Hernandez (09:03):
Right.
It sounded like instead ofliving the game through, you
know, the handheld series or themain series, that you actually
got to experience it and be ableto find Pokemon, where you go to
on a daily day basis.
WoodWoseWulf (09:15):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think that was the most
exciting thing about me forPokemon Go.
I read an early interview withJohn Hanky where he was talking
about even having different soiltypes affect the type of Pokemon
that could appear, and that wasjust so cool to me.
David Hernandez (09:31):
So you said you started playing Pokemon Red.
Did you stick with the Pokemonfranchise throughout the entire
time or did you tailor off?
WoodWoseWulf (09:37):
Off and on.
I played red, and then I playedsilver, and I loved silver.
I thought it was even as ayoungster, I kind of recognized
how ambitious it was for a GameBoy game.
I left home very, very young andI sort of missed gen three, but
then I came back and ever sincethen, Pokemon has been really,
really important in my life.
David Hernandez (09:58):
Oh, what's your favorite Pokemon?
WoodWoseWulf (09:59):
it might sound a little bit weird, but I love
Oddish and I also love all thelittle round plant babies.
I dunno what it is, whether it'stheir dumb faces or that they're
a little bit different, but Ireally, really love those sorts
of Pokemon,
David Hernandez (10:12):
So any grass types that have like a round
face like Sunkern?
WoodWoseWulf (10:15):
Yeah, sunkern, Hoppip, Cottonee, all those
sorts of Pokemon.
David Hernandez (10:18):
That is such a unique take.
I like it.
So what's your primary way tolike play the game?
WoodWoseWulf (10:24):
It is probably quite unique, but my favorite
way to play this game is to loadup some incense, find a hiking
trail that's just on the edge ofmobile reception, cell phone
reception, and just go for ahike and see what appears.
I think that's really, reallyinteresting when you can be out
in the woods or walking along abeach, maybe walking along a
(10:45):
cliffside or in some way thatyou've never been before, and
just experiencing what Pokemonappear there.
David Hernandez (10:51):
It's definitely a lot of fun because usually I
take my dogs to, uh, we havestate parks here in Texas.
I'll take my dogs to like arandom trail right outside of
the city area and it's so quiet,hardly anybody's around, and I
always enjoy seeing.
You don't see as manyunfortunately, but it's always
fun to just walk the trail.
It's quiet and you encounter aPokemon, it can be anything.
(11:12):
That was my hope for what thegame could be that you could
kind of go into like more natureareas and to be able to
experience the game the same wayyou know, we grew up with, in
regards to both the games andeven with Ash Ketchum in the
main series.
He got to go to random placesand you just find Pokemon no
matter where you were.
WoodWoseWulf (11:28):
Yeah, that's the fantasy, right?
Like I think every kid at somepoint in their life kind of
imagined doing that.
Just going out adventuring inthe wilderness, going to
different places and tellingtheir own story In the Pokemon
world.
Some of the Pokemon I have thatI hold most fondly, don't have
the highest IVs or aren't shiny,they're just Pokemon that I
(11:48):
found at certain places doingcertain things, and I associate
them with those events and thoseplaces, and I don't think anyone
could really take that away fromme.
David Hernandez (11:58):
You were actually a scientist at the
Silph research group, is thatcorrect?
WoodWoseWulf (12:01):
That's correct.
Yeah.
David Hernandez (12:03):
First off, what is the Silph research group?
WoodWoseWulf (12:06):
The Silph research group is essentially a citizen
science group.
So, volunteers come in from allover the world, they don't have
to have qualification, we takeeveryone, as long as they're
honest with their contributionsand they collect data about
Pokemon Go.
It's probably the largestcitizen science group dedicated
to a video game in the world, Iwould be fairly confident to say
(12:28):
that, yeah, there's thousandsand thousands of members and
everyone contributes data aboutshiny rates, about encounters,
about item drops.
And what we do is we collatethat information and it's
published on the Silver Roadwebsite to help the community,
so that's either through theautomated pages that contribute
to what species are nesting,shiny rates, rocket encounters,
(12:51):
or articles.
When we do articles, we do realbig, deep dives and look at how
mechanics work and on a really,really microscopic level.
David Hernandez (13:01):
Do you know how long these type of researches
would take?
it sounds like you'll go intovery big detail, but like, How
long is a typical research andwhat does it entail normally?
WoodWoseWulf (13:10):
Typically you'd be looking at months and months.
One of the problems with theSilph research group was
originally structured was thatwe would spend a lot of time
gathering data and the gamewould change over time.
Because Pokemon Go is, you know,you've gotta be on the
precipice, you've gotta bepublishing what's important to
people at that particular time,we've really had to refine how
(13:32):
things are done, and that's whywe moved to pages that are
actually refreshed out of thedata that research group is
gathering at that particulartime.
With an article you could belooking at anywhere from a month
to three months, but the numberof people hours that go into it
is hundreds, if not thousands.
David Hernandez (13:49):
Oh, geez.
Dang.
WoodWoseWulf (13:49):
Yeah.
David Hernandez (13:50):
So y'all very extensive when it comes to
trying to find out about thisgame?
WoodWoseWulf (13:54):
Yeah, absolutely, it's something that the Silph
research group is very, verypassionate about and without
that passion, I don't think itwould actually be possible.
David Hernandez (14:04):
I mean, if you're doing hundreds and
hundred hours of research on amobile game, then I would be
strong to disagree on that,
WoodWoseWulf (14:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
David Hernandez (14:12):
So what was your role in regards to, like,
how were you involved with theself research group?
WoodWoseWulf (14:16):
I started with the Silph research group in May,
2017.
The research group had existedsince before Pokemon Go launched
and as with a lot of communitiesthat started in 2016, a lot of
people who started in themturned over, leaders left, the
community changed, and one ofthe early things that I was
(14:36):
really focused on, as I movedinto a leadership position
there, refreshing the people whoare at the top with absolute
respect for what those peopledid early on, but they weren't
there anymore or they didn'tnecessarily have the time.
So bringing in a new diverseleadership, working out how to
publish faster, and also comingup with ways to get the
(14:57):
information to the community inmeaningful ways, if that makes
sense.
David Hernandez (15:02):
Right, so you're basically trying to build
on past re well not build onpast research, you're trying to
respect it, but you're alsohaving to develop new findings
WoodWoseWulf (15:09):
New findings and also new structures, because the
Silph research group isn't justabout the publications, it's
about having a structure, thatactually can make those
publications as well.
It's about making rules, makingboundaries, ensuring that your
community's diverse and covers awide range of experiences, and
also has the skills to actuallyfulfill the requirements of what
(15:32):
the research group is aiming todo it as well.
David Hernandez (15:34):
It almost sounds like you had a part-time
job.
Are they paying you or is thisall volunteer
WoodWoseWulf (15:39):
Oh, David, there, there were times when like I, in
my real work life, I manage abusiness and there were times
when I was working eight to sixand then I was coming home doing
minor stuff with the researchgroup, setting an alarm, and
then getting up at 3:00 AM totalk to Drnopes who was one of
(16:01):
the founders of the Silph Road,making sure that he was across
what we were doing, getting hisopinions on things and Drnopes
has always been great.
Very, very supportive of theSilph Road and Pokemon Go in
general.
And yeah, it was a very, verybig commitment, I look back now
and I dunno how I did it.
I dunno where I found theenergy.
David Hernandez (16:18):
That's what I'm saying, dude, like you are a
manager, you know, managers workobviously more than the typical
eight hours, but you're workinglike, what, 10 to 12 hours, then
you're dedicating another onefourth of your time with the
Silph Road.
No, I mean, nothing wrong withthat, but dude, your schedule
was wonky for sure.
WoodWoseWulf (16:32):
for a couple of years it was, some of the other
scientists who were still activejust basically say You were
everywhere, I don't know how youdid it.
Honestly, I don't know either atthat point, but I just, feel
like Pokemon Go at that stage inmy life was just so important
and really, really motivated meand excited me.
I think that sort of acted as abit of a dynamo and just kept me
going.
(16:53):
One of the things theyimplemented to sort of help
soothe the transition from theold guard, so to speak, to the
newer scientists and thescientists who have come in
after that.
And when I say scientists, it'sa rank within the silver
research group, whichessentially a moderator,
somebody who handles thedecisions of the day-to-day
group.
Anyway, one of the things Iimplemented was an emeritus
(17:14):
status, which essentially meantthat you're still connected to
the group, but you're notnecessarily part of the
day-to-day operation.
That's something I've opted forat this stage in my life, in the
Silph Research group, where Ican sort of step away.
I can be that elderly gentlemanin a green sweater looking at
the paintings on the wallsgoing, Hmm, this is nice.
(17:36):
I, I don't, I don't have toactually have any
responsibility, but I can stillbe there if I'm needed.
David Hernandez (17:41):
It sounds like almost a legacy scientist group
for a lack a better
WoodWoseWulf (17:46):
Exactly.
And it's hard because sometimesyou wanna step in, but at the
same time you have to say, well,I've helped these people come up
through the ranks and I have tolet them fly on their own as
well.
Something very unique, I think,to the Silph research group in
that it extends outwards toother parts of people's lives,
and you teach them skills andthings that they take elsewhere
(18:08):
as well.
David Hernandez (18:09):
It's very difficult to pass things on and
I'm realizing that myself as acommunity leader within my area,
that with everything I do,right, and I look back and I'm
like, I can't do some of thestuff that I used to.
You know, some of the hands inthe dirt, trying to build things
up.
I mean, I know how to do it, butI can't give it the honest
effort that it deserves
WoodWoseWulf (18:28):
Right.
And that, that's exactly right.
Like it's about the honesty.
It's about the if you don't feelit anymore, sometimes it's
actually best to step aside, andit doesn't mean that you don't
like the game, it doesn't meanthat you don't like whatever
community you're in.
It just means that you're notdoing the best for it at that
particular time.
David Hernandez (18:46):
What made you want to transition to the role
you're in now?
WoodWoseWulf (18:50):
It was actually a slow process for me.
One of the things that I toldmyself early on was I was never
going to allow myself to becomeone of those names that's
holding the title, but notactually really doing much.
And that's, no hate to anyonewho came before me because they
all did a great job when theywere there.
(19:11):
But when you see somebody in anorganization like the Silph
research group who's saying I'ma Silph scientist, but they're
not actually active, it gives afalse impression of what the
group is capable of.
I didn't want to be deadweight,I didn't want to give the
impression,"Hey Wood's here, hecan handle that." over time I
felt like my motivation for thegame, in that regard of the
(19:34):
trying to understand how thegame works, were sinking and I
was playing the game in otherways that didn't necessarily gel
so well with the Silph ResearchGroup and its mission.
David Hernandez (19:44):
Sounds like a conflict of interest?
WoodWoseWulf (19:46):
I dunno if I'd call it a conflict of interest.
I wouldn't even say I outgrewit.
I think it's more that I wasready to just enjoy the game for
what it was and what it is asopposed to trying to peek behind
the curtain at everyopportunity, if that makes
sense.
David Hernandez (20:01):
Oh, that makes sense.
You're not interested in makingcupcakes, you're more interested
in just eating it.
WoodWoseWulf (20:04):
Exactly.
David Hernandez (20:06):
We're gonna take a quick break with a word
from our sponsors.
We'll be right back.
(22:44):
So how do you feel about yournew phase?
Like do you feel like you madethe correct choice?
WoodWoseWulf (22:49):
It's always hard when you see things happen and
you wanted to step in and belike, Hey, this is how I would
do it, but as I said, you, you,you kind of gotta let the people
who you trusted to take overyour role, actually take over
your role.
That's just a fact of life and Ithink that applies to a lot of
things, and it's a really greatlesson to learn and take away
from that situation.
David Hernandez (23:10):
Oh yeah, without a doubt and it's hard
too because you know, you put somuch time into it.
We're talking, we're not justtalking like a couple months.
You, this was part of yourPokemon Go journey for what,
five years?
WoodWoseWulf (23:20):
Yeah, it was part of my life like, it was like a
second job.
It was a reality for me.
So it's very, very hard to walkaway, but you've also gotta be
cognizant that when the timecomes, you've gotta do it.
Otherwise you become harmful.
David Hernandez (23:35):
Now I know one thing you're passionate about,
and I'm looking forward totalking about this.
It's the Biomes and Nest withPokemon Go.
WoodWoseWulf (23:41):
Yes,
David Hernandez (23:42):
Was that part of your research or is that just
a side project you had?
WoodWoseWulf (23:46):
it was actually something that drew me into the
research group in the firstplace and it's actually
something Drnopes and I talkedabout a lot as well, and
eventually he reached out to meand said,"Hey, I really want you
to focus on this wherever youcan in the research group." It's
very, very difficult thoughbecause biomes are incredibly
complex and it's something thatthe research group has never
(24:06):
really managed to work out ahundred percent.
And I think since seasons whenthings have become even more
complicated, you know, theychange every three months and
things are pulled in and out,and then you've got events all
over the place as well.
It becomes very, very difficultto understand.
Early on though, biomes was mymain motivation for trying to
understand this game when Ifirst started playing.
(24:29):
I live on the New South WalesCentral Coast and it's a very,
very geographically diverselocation, so I had access to a
huge number of different biomes,and it goes back to that story I
was telling about walkingthrough the Australian bush of
my friends and it's therealization of that fantasy.
I spent a lot of time standingon street corners on S two cell
(24:50):
lines, trying to work out whatthings were what, if that makes
sense.
Working out,"oh, Voltorb stopsspawning at this particular
point, and then Pidgey startsspawning here.
What does that mean?
And I think that still remainsone of the great mysteries of
Pokemon Go, especially earlyPokemon Go.
David Hernandez (25:08):
You know, it's funny you say that cuz it's,
hard for me to fathom thatthere's a mystery with this game
still, how much people dig intothe code, with how much people
play this game.
There are still things we don'tunderstand with this game.
WoodWoseWulf (25:20):
and I think in some ways that's almost art,
right?
It's not just, oh, this is thenumbers that appear.
It's something more than that.
it's something that's really,really exciting and it's also
something that only Pokemon Gocan offer or a game like Pokemon
Go.
On the other hand, nest, they'rea lot simpler, they're related
to open street map features likeparks, recreation grounds, even
(25:44):
farmland, grasslands.
And what would happen with Nestis every two weeks there would
be a migration and there wouldbe a set list of species of
Pokemon that could appear.
Basically the Pokemon wouldappear about 25% of the time in
that particular nest, so 25% ofall the spawn points there would
be that particular nestingspecies.
And that was something early onwhere communities shared that
(26:06):
information, which meant that,you got a lot of community
building out of those earlystages of that feature
David Hernandez (26:12):
Yeah, nowadays.
I mean, I always say this Nestdon't really, I don't wanna say
matter anymore, but because ofhow much they shift both
beginning and end, they canshift both times.
It's hard to keep up with them.
The game's more event driven,like it makes Nest almost
obsolete at this point, which isunfortunate.
WoodWoseWulf (26:29):
It is.
It is very, very unfortunate,especially because people will
put in the effort and they'llgo, you know, oh, this
particular nest is spawning thisspecies of Pokemon, and two days
later it's changed.
it's actually probably one ofthe most disappointing things, I
think with Pokemon Go thesedays.
The fact that it was a greatfeature that actually did help
(26:51):
build communities and encouragepeople to communicate with each
other, and it's something that'sbeen lost and I hope that as
Niantic starts to push the gameback to a more exercise and
exploration focus, that we mightsee a bit of resurgence in that,
but it's really gotta have thewill from Niantic to do that.
And they've really gotta see thevalue in it.
David Hernandez (27:13):
Do you have any ideas of what you would like to
see change when it comes tonest?
WoodWoseWulf (27:18):
Uh, I have a lot of ideas, one of the big things
for me would be seeingintegration with Campfire.
The Silph Nest Atlas was areally, really great resource
early on, I had, I think 115separate migrations recorded
before I stopped doing itBecause of events ruining the
way that reports worked, andquite often I would report
(27:41):
something and then I would get amessage from somebody three days
later saying, you're wrong.
It's this, and it's because anevents come in and it's changed
the whole spawn system at thatparticular location, it makes
the reporter look like they'renot necessarily accurate, and
that's something that's very,very important to me.
If you spend, your Thursdaynight driving around to 12 nests
(28:04):
and you try to impart thatinformation to your community,
and then three days laterthere's an event and the Nest
spawn pool changes andeverything shifts around.
People are relying on thatoriginal information you posted
but it's all wrong and thatreally breaks the faith in what
nests are, it breaks the faithin the people who are reporting
it, and it also breaks the offaith in any resources like The
(28:26):
Silph Nest Atlas, if that makessense.
Like I said, I'd love to seesome integration of Wayfarer
where somebody could maybereport the Nest and they will
stay relevant until there's amigration, so you could put a
flag up and it will just staythere and then as soon as
Niantic decides, I'm gonna havean event that changes Nest pools
fine, it disappears and thenpeople can go and report
(28:46):
something else.
Alternatively, you could dosomething similar to what
Wizards Unite did, where youactually had a flag in game and
it actually shows you Pidgey isnesting here, and it's just all
in game.
And that makes a lot more sense,it actually drives people to a
particular location without evenhaving to leave the app.
David Hernandez (29:03):
So speaking of Wayfarer, that's how you spend a
lot of time with the gamenowadays, right?
WoodWoseWulf (29:07):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Between open street map andWayfarer, I think actually
probably spend more time on thatside of things compared to
actually playing Pokemon codethese days.
David Hernandez (29:18):
Hey, no shame, somebody's gotta do it.
And Wayfair is
WoodWoseWulf (29:21):
Yeah.
David Hernandez (29:21):
So for people who are listening, like how does
Open Street Map and Wayfarerwork together?
WoodWoseWulf (29:26):
Open street map basically provides the base map
for Pokemon Go in terms of whatyou actually see on the game
map, so roads, green areas, blueareas for water, buildings,
nest, some biomes, it's a littlebit more sketchy in that area.
Wayfarer goes over the top ofthat and adds Pokestops and gyms
(29:47):
into Pokemon Go.
You have interactions such as exeligible gyms, in which case a
gym that sits within a level 20S-2 cell in a Green Park area
will pick up the ex eligibletag.
It is a little more complicatedthan that, but at a basic level,
you have that interactionbetween Open Street Map, whereas
(30:08):
something's mapped as a park andthen you have a gym out of
Wayfarer in that park, it willbe an EX-eligible gym.
David Hernandez (30:16):
Right, and this is important because a lot of
new areas that get developed, ifthey aren't updated on open
street map, then if you have agym, say in a park and it's not
labeled a park, it won't getthat ex tag.
WoodWoseWulf (30:27):
Yeah, you won't have the ex gyms, you won't have
nests.
You might have less spawns.
There's a lot of things that gointo it that if you don't have
an area well mapped an openstreet map at the time when
Niantic pulls the data, which isvery, very infrequent, then
you'll have a worse timecompared to a well mapped area.
There's a campus in Singapore,which is actually the student
(30:49):
residential campus at theUniversity of Singapore called U
Town.
It was mapped as a school andthere's thousands of students
who play Pokemon Go in that areaand they can't play in that
particular place.
David Hernandez (31:01):
Yes, because there's no spawns that will
spawn there, the only thing dois spin stops.
WoodWoseWulf (31:06):
You can spin stops and do raids, but there is
absolutely zero Pokemon thatwill appear there.
David Hernandez (31:11):
Exactly, and I think for us here in Dallas or
yeah, SMU, I think they finallygot the ability to have spawns
when some, they did the update,of course on open street map,
but it didn't get implementeduntil, I think maybe 2018, 2019
is when they finally had spawnsthat happened at that college.
WoodWoseWulf (31:27):
It takes a very, very long time and the few cases
where Niantic has actuallystepped in to intervene, it's
taken a lot of effort on behalfof the communities there in
particular locations.
I think the Seroni Gulf inGreece is a really good example
where they had to campaign, getarticles in Eurogamer across all
the gaming press before Nianticwould even do anything and
(31:50):
you're talking about an islandwhere there were no Pokemon that
appeared at all.
So you can't just go, oh, I'lljust go to the next town over.
You gotta get in a boat and goto Athens or something to even
play the game properly.
David Hernandez (32:01):
Yeah it's a bit of a commute to go on a boat.
WoodWoseWulf (32:03):
a bit of a trip.
David Hernandez (32:05):
Yeah, just a little bit.
WoodWoseWulf (32:05):
Just a little bit outta the way.
Don't worry.
David Hernandez (32:08):
So going to Wayfarer, what, what's it been
your experience like withworking with that system?
WoodWoseWulf (32:12):
It's both wonderful and extremely
frustrating.
In terms of wonderful, it'sgreat being able to fill out
areas and see places come tolife.
One of my favorite things to dois find somewhere that just has
no way spots at all a completeblank Canvas and fill it out.
(32:32):
Go out there, find everythingthat's really interesting, and
add poker stops, add gyms, andmake it somewhere really good to
play.
On the other hand, adding thingssometimes can be very, very
frustrating, and I understandthat both from a reviewer
perspective and from a submitterperspective, there are certain
things that could be improved inthe system.
In terms of from a submitterperspective, sometimes it feels
(32:56):
like you are almost treated likeyou're guilty until you're
proven innocent in that you haveto provide almost an
overwhelming amount of evidenceto prove that something exists,
especially in a rural area thatmight not have street view, And
on the other hand, sometimeswhen you're a reviewer, you're
just not given enoughinformation and I'm not sure
whether Niantic has reallypinned down the best way to
(33:17):
handle that yet.
David Hernandez (33:18):
It's a very difficult line to follow,
especially as a submitter,because whenever I see some of
the criticisms from the Wayfarercommunity, I feel like you
almost have to write an essay totry to get something approved
sometimes, and it's a lot ofhoops for me who is familiar
with the system to do.
I know how to do it because I'vedone Wayfarer for so long, but
we're talking about, I'm theminority.
(33:39):
The average person won't go intothat much detail because they've
got other things to take careof.
They don't really have time tosit down like me or even you, to
learn a system to try to getstuff approved.
WoodWoseWulf (33:50):
Exactly, and it's almost like learning some kind
of weird magical school whereyou have the main textbook, but
then you have to seek out thesecret text on the forums and
rid of the, be these threethings before you submit the way
spot, you know?
David Hernandez (34:08):
No, and that's what it feels like.
WoodWoseWulf (34:10):
Yeah.
I, I just wish the whole processwas a lot more simple so that
people in areas that aredisadvantage in a Wayfarer
sense, were able to engage withthe system more easily.
And at the same time, people whowere reviewing didn't have to
feel like every single personwho was submitting was trying to
game the system.
For Niantic, it's a challengeand coming from an open street
(34:33):
map background where I've done alot of moderation on the open
street map side, thegamification of a system where
people are trying to gainsomething for their own benefit
really drives a lot of very oddand sometimes inappropriate and
often inaccurate changes.
(34:53):
Whether it's Wayfarer or OpenStreet Map, people, when the
system is gamified, they're moreencouraged to add fake things
because it helps them.
David Hernandez (35:03):
What is it about Wayfarer and doing stuff
with Open Street Map thatappeals to you?
WoodWoseWulf (35:07):
I've always loved things like Sim City, I don't
know if that's a weird thing tosay, but just being able to fill
out an environment withartifacts and things and
customize a game map is justamazing and when you can do it
in reality, I think it just addsa whole nother dimension to
that.
David Hernandez (35:27):
I go back to the stuff that I submitted and
see how much I've been able tobuild up an area.
It gives you almost a sense ofpride like before this area was
empty and then you see it allwith Pokestops or gyms or
whatever have you, and then yourphotos on there and it has your
in-game trainer name is like,that's something that can never
really be taken away.
WoodWoseWulf (35:42):
Exactly! And I always like to imagine what
experiences people will havewith something you've added in
the future.
So, my brother got married inWestern Australia the same time
that I actually added theWayspots in the southwestern
point of Western Australia.
We stayed at this resort, whichwas in the middle of the Karri
Forest down near Pemberton, andI added multiple poker stops
(36:05):
down there.
I don't know who's ever gonnause them, I'm never gonna spin
them, I'm never gonna put aPokemon in that gym, but I just
like to imagine somebody willcome along someday and be like,
"oh, that's really cool.
I didn't expect anything to behere, but there it is." You
create experiences for otherpeople, which is just, something
very profound and very, veryinteresting and very, very
powerful to me.
(36:26):
It is all about stories andpeople building their own
personal narrative with the gamemap and getting out there and
exploring and exercising andexperiencing both the world
because obviously with Wayfarer,you are adding real artifacts
and real features and points ofinterest that people will
discover potentially because ofwhat you've done, but also
(36:46):
enhancing their gameplayexperience as well, which is,
it's amazing.
David Hernandez (36:51):
Absolutely, man! Well, WoodWoseWulf, that's
an interview.
Do you have any last minutewords for anybody listening?
WoodWoseWulf (36:57):
If anyone has any questions about Open Street Map,
feel free to reach out to me onTwitter.
My username is WoodWoseWulf witha U for the Wulf.
Alternatively, feel free to jointhe Silph science or whatever we
end up calling it Discord or theopen street map, world discord
as well, where there's a lot ofreally helpful people.
If you are in an area like I wasat the start of the game, that
(37:18):
has very few spawns and verylittle POIs, just stick with it.
Use friendship or whatever youcan to level up, and as we were
just saying, create your ownstory and create something that
other people can build off aswell.
It's very, very powerful andit's a great thing that you can
do to leave a legacy foryourself in Pokemon Go.
David Hernandez (37:38):
Absolutely, and you never know, you might find
yourself as a guest on As ThePokeball Turns, if you do.
Thank you for listening toanother episode of As The
Pokeball Turns.
You can subscribe to thispodcast on Apple, Spotify, or
your favorite podcast app.
If you wanna support the show,consider becoming a Patreon by
going topatreon.com/asthePokeballturns,
(37:59):
or by sharing the podcast withyour friends and family, and
I'll see you next time.
Here's the sneak peek for thenext episode of As The Pokeball
Turns.
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