September 6, 2023 • 39 mins
From a time when Pokémon provided comfort in the hospital, PvPoke has transformed his passion into the globally recognized PVPoke.com. This episode explores how his dedication to Pokémon GO PvP and community-driven tools have shaped the Pokémon experience. Discover the heart of his story, the hurdles of creating a pivotal website, and how PvPoke continues to impact Trainers around the world.
Sources
Opening Song: "Forget You" by Alex_MakeMusic from Pixabay
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Hernandez (00:00):
My name is David Hernandez, and you're
(00:01):
listening to As the PokeballTurns.
(00:44):
Welcome to As the PokéballTurns, where the stories are
real and people still play thisgame.
When it comes to Pokémon Go PvP,There are numerous people who
have contributed to growing thecommunity.
At one point, an individual sawan opportunity to create a
resource that allowed Pokémontrainers to better analyze metas
in Pokémon.
For a while, the best way todetermine a Pokemon's usage was
(01:06):
through testing and theorycrafting.
Eventually, a site was createdthat ranked each possible
Pokemon eligible in whatevercups or metas one could imagine.
Since the site's inception, ithas been used by countless
Pokemon trainers to developteams for Silph Arena, factions,
GO Battle League, And many moregrassroots communities that
continue to pop up.
It has now become an integralpart of the PvP community and a
(01:30):
necessary tool to learn how toutilize if you want to improve
or perfect your PvP battlingskills.
But what were the earlychallenges faced when the site
was in development?
What are the challenges thatcome with maintaining a site
now?
My guest in this episode is theowner of said site, here to not
only answer these questions, butalso share his journey with
Pokemon Go, and who he wasbefore the website.
(01:53):
From Minneapolis, Minnesota,here is his origin story into
the world of Pokemon Go.
This is PvPoke.
Today, I'm joined by a fellowperson who goes by many names,
just like myself.
Some of you may know him asEmpolian Dynamite.
Others may know him asKakunaMatata.
But most of you know him asPvPpoke.
Thank you for coming on theshow,
PVPoke (02:13):
Hey, David, thanks so much for having me.
David Hernandez (02:15):
Definitely, and, I feel honored to have you
on the show because I'veinterviewed a lot of PvP people
on my show.
Your name has consistently comeup for each person.
I think it'd be hard for me todescribe how much you've really
Given to the PVP community andwhat you've done for them.
from the bottom of my heart, Iknow I can't speak for everybody
else, but I just want to saythank you for all that you've
(02:36):
done.
PVPoke (02:37):
I really appreciate hearing that and it's awesome to
hear that other PVP people havecome onto the show and a big
thank you to the community andeveryone as well.
Cause I certainly wouldn't bedoing this without all the
encouragement and support.
David Hernandez (02:52):
Oh, without a doubt.
Now with any other guests,there's always an ordinance
story, but one thing I want toask is it true that you didn't
have a smartphone before Pokemongo?
PVPoke (03:01):
That is a true story.
Yes.
I can vet that story.
Fact.
David Hernandez (03:05):
Fact, what was the reason?
Like, why would you not have asmartphone?
Just if you're willing to share.
PVPoke (03:11):
Yeah, I got my first, texting cell phone in college
and beyond that I didn't reallysee a need for a smartphone, up
until Pokemon Go came out and Iwas like, ooh, I want to do
this, but I'm going to need morethan a flip phone.
So down I went to the Verizonstore and that all worked out.
(03:33):
sometimes despite being a personin technology.
I can stick with things thatjust work for me for a really
long time.
as example, my, my secondmonitor here at my battle
station is 12 year olds, 1080ptelevision cause why not?
And nowadays I feel like I canhardly go anywhere without
(03:53):
needing to look up a map or,imagine like folding out one of
those big roadmaps on a trip.
instead of listening to Siri orwhoever give out, commands and
actually Pokemon Go in a weirdway is a very useful map app.
David Hernandez (04:07):
And you said that because of Pokemon Go,
that's what got you asmartphone.
So what was it about Pokemon Gothat I guess broke your
commitment to not having asmartphone?
PVPoke (04:15):
Ooh, let's see.
It definitely reached a pointof, a fear of missing out that
it's hard to explain just howbig of a phenomenon Pokemon Go
was in those first couple ofweeks, like everybody was out
and playing and I definitelywanted to be part of that and,
definitely don't regret it causeit changed my life in a lot of
ways.
David Hernandez (04:34):
Did you grow up as a Pokemon fan?
PVPoke (04:36):
I did, yes.
I grew up, I think my firstvideo game, in fact, might have
been Pokémon Yellow on the GameBoy Color.
that was my first, jump into thePokémon series.
And, have the cards, watch themovies, and as I grew up,
Pokemon just continued to staywith me.
(04:56):
My, parents assure me that wasjust a fad, but, seems to have
definitely stood the test oftime.
And, I did step back from theseries a little bit, between the
end of high school and beginningof college, but got back into it
with, gen five with Pokemonblack and white and loved those
games, and have been playing themain series since then.
David Hernandez (05:17):
Gen five was such a good generation cause I
don't know.
I liked the compelling storybehind Team Plasma and
developing that ethicalquandary, that's kind of, I'll
say, lying beneath withinPokemon, to where, is it right
to battle with them?
And, stuff like that.
it asks some very toughquestions that Pokemon has not
really done too often.
PVPoke (05:36):
I really liked Pokémon Scarlet and Violet's story.
as a matter of fact, for likeslightly different reasons, but
I think with both Unova andPaldea, there was a lot of
character to dive into there.
And presented Pokémon in a waythat felt like more mature in a
way.
David Hernandez (05:53):
Now, which generation would be your
favorite?
PVPoke (05:55):
I have to go with Generation 3.
Hoenn is near and dear to myheart.
I unfortunately did spend a goodamount of time in the hospital
as a kid, and Pokemon Sapphiredefinitely, was a big help in
getting through those times.
So, very special place in myheart,
David Hernandez (06:13):
what happened that caused you to be in the
hospital so much.
PVPoke (06:16):
as I like to say, coming up on, over the age of 30 now,
my body is falling apart at theseams.
Like you just wake up onemorning and it's oh, that's a
new pain.
But, even as a kid, that was,that was the case.
Had some long, longstandingdigestive issues, stomach
issues, and eventually had toget surgery for it.
that was a challenging time, butPokémon was there and Pokémon
(06:39):
has also been there just kind ofa constant, through my life in
some form or another.
it's very interesting to thinkabout, how we play today and
just for me anyway, it'ssomething that's just always
been there.
David Hernandez (06:49):
For me, I always imagined, during those
tough times, I would alwaysescape into a Pokemon game.
And I always imagined thosePokemon that I had on my team
were kind of always around me ina way.
Kind of like an imaginaryfriend, if I could say.
PVPoke (07:00):
Absolutely.
David Hernandez (07:01):
that's what always helped me get through it,
to where I felt like I wasn'talone going through what I was
needing to go through.
PVPoke (07:07):
yeah, for sure.
And I think that's a, such ahuge core part of pokemon as a
whole, as Pokemon as yourfriends, as your companions,
supporting each other andhowever, sappy as that may seem,
just having some pocket monstersto run around with in a game
always brings a smile to myface, so.
David Hernandez (07:24):
Well, let me ask you a fun question.
Since Gen 3 is your favoritePokemon, if you were going to do
a playthrough, what six Pokemonwould you choose?
PVPoke (07:31):
My six from when I was playing and on replays in Alpha,
Sapphire and such, Blaziken.
Flygon.
I loved Flygon growing up andnow, Altaria was also a
favorite.
I had a soft spot for Absol.
I thought it was super cool.
Aggron.
I liked Aggron.
It was just this big, giant.
(07:53):
steel dinosaur kind of thing.
David Hernandez (07:55):
Yeah, one more.
PVPoke (07:56):
probably Gardevoir, actually.
David Hernandez (07:58):
Are any of those your favorite Like just
without the entire series,Pokemon.
PVPoke (08:01):
Yeah, Blaziken and Flygon, for sure.
And Altaria as well, it's justso cute and fluffy.
David Hernandez (08:07):
So Pokemon go comes out, you upgrade to a
phone.
Like where were the places to goto play?
Like where were the people at?
PVPoke (08:12):
Back then, it's probably split between...
Downtown Minneapolis and theUniversity of Minnesota campus,
which is still a fantastic placeto play really any, campus is,
usually a good hotspot forPokemon Go.
David Hernandez (08:26):
PvP doesn't come out until 2019.
What was your way to play thegame before that?
PVPoke (08:31):
we had a really active Discord for the University of
Minnesota.
my typical, Pokémon Go day mightbe swinging by campus, hitting
up some of the raid lobbies andsome of the nests.
back when raids first came out,as a matter of fact, that was
the, really galvanizing, part ofthe game for the local
(08:53):
community.
At least for me it was, andraiding was just a big part of
Pokemon Go and community lifeback then.
Definitely much less now,unfortunately, but that was a
fun time and lots of raidactivity.
And then of course, obviouslywhen PvP comes along and we
start having, Silph tournamentsand things like that, and that
(09:14):
was a ton of fun.
honestly, that's probably awhole different topic of
discussion.
David Hernandez (09:18):
Just regarding the raiding, I remember when
raids first dropped, and itsounds like you had the same
experience, up in Minnesota.
to where there was just raidtrains everywhere, and we would
just go from raid to raid tryingto, this is before Shinies, and
we were just trying to get aHundo's, I think, that's what we
were doing here in our area, aHundo's, and it was just like
its own community in a way.
PVPoke (09:37):
Yeah.
I remember even the first likeraid days with Articuno, Zapdos,
and Moltres.
We were hyper competitive withthose, we would, split into
teams and try and beat eachother's records for how many
raids we'd do in the hour.
We'd plan out whole routes and,try and figure out, the fastest
way to do them and it was apretty intense time.
David Hernandez (09:58):
Do you remember how many you were able to
complete in an hour?
Just a personal best?
PVPoke (10:03):
think the highest I got was around 30 or so.
That's also like walking andusually I'd try and catch the
Pokemon.
I know some people would justfinish the raid and then run.
but I'd usually try and catch,get as much candy as I could.
David Hernandez (10:22):
I think it was it a tap and go, this is what
it's called, where you run awayfrom the raid boss, if it wasn't
a shiny or a Hundo.
It always bugged me cause I waslike, I really want to catch
this like I paid a dollar for itfor one, but two, two, I feel
like I'm abandoning it, if Idon't try to catch it, it was a
very weird parasocial kind of arelationship I had with these
imaginary creatures at times.
PVPoke (10:41):
And then there's the, peer pressure from the other
side of like, Hey, we got, we'restarting this rain.
It's like, Oh no, I still haveseven balls left.
David Hernandez (10:49):
what team were you actually?
PVPoke (10:51):
I am mystic and I've always been mystic.
David Hernandez (10:55):
Alright, my fellow mystic player rise
PVPoke (10:57):
Yes,
David Hernandez (10:58):
I was wondering if you're a team instinct.
'cause you know, instinct alwayshad, back in those days,
instinct always had six or sevenballs and that was about it.
PVPoke (11:05):
Yeah, that's true.
no, I chose Team Mystic a bitrandomly, there were some people
I met super early on that Inever really saw again after the
first few days of go that werelike, oh, we're gonna be Team
Mystic.
And it's oh, sure, that soundscool.
But I like Team Mystic.
I think Mystic fits how I playand, my personality best, so,
analyzing the numbers, ofcourse.
David Hernandez (11:27):
you ever thought about maybe making a
website around P V P?
I think that you'd be prettygood at it.
That
PVPoke (11:32):
I should think about that.
I'll need to figure out like themath and I don't even know what
it'd be about.
David Hernandez (11:37):
you should call it p v p Poke.
PVPoke (11:39):
That is catchy.
David Hernandez (11:40):
I think
PVPoke (11:41):
I'm going to have to remember that.
David Hernandez (11:42):
I think there's something there.
Anyway, so eventually, ofcourse, P D P comes out in 2019.
What was it about PVP thatinterests you at first?
PVPoke (11:51):
Part of it was just something new and exciting and I
had a feeling I would get intoit pretty competitively,
whatever it ended up being.
So even before any details cameout, just from the announcement,
my mind was starting to churn oflike, okay, what is this going
to look like?
What's going to be good?
And as a matter of fact, beforePvP released, I built a
(12:16):
prototype, of Pokemon Go'scurrent battle system, the gym
battling system as a PvP gameand it was just, like me and,
Alphafeeb playing.
you had six Pokemon, of coursethey were probably all
legendaries, tapping the screenas fast as you could.
So that was, fun and kind of theprecursor to actually making
(12:38):
PVPoke.
David Hernandez (12:39):
How close did you get to what PVP eventually
became or you weren't close atall?
PVPoke (12:43):
Oh gosh, not close at all.
the core, you have the Pokemonout and you can switch them, was
there.
but you had six Pokemon on yourteam.
you could switch at any time, ofcourse it was using the gym
battle system, so it wasn'tlocked into turns, you'd have,
delays between your damage,landing, and, only one charge
move, of course, too.
(13:04):
no shields either.
plenty of differences.
David Hernandez (13:06):
you said PVP, you knew you were going to be
participating.
Are you like very competitive?
is that just something thatdrives you?
PVPoke (13:12):
Yeah, I'd say so.
My competitive fire has a bitrelaxed over the years, but
growing up and at the time I wassuper into a lot of FPS games,
Call of Duty, Halo, Gears ofWar, and at the time that
Pokemon Go came out, I was superinto Destiny and especially the
(13:33):
PvP mode in Destiny called TheCrucible, and I played that
super competitively.
so really that kind of,experience, knowing that a PvP
mode was coming to Go, I justhad an idea of like, yeah, I can
see this as something I couldreally get into.
David Hernandez (13:47):
So on a scale of like, you're bitter that you
lost, like it hurts, to you'relike rage quitting and throwing
things at the wall.
Where do you stand in regards tohow competitive you are?
PVPoke (13:56):
Ooh.
I definitely had my, Call ofDuty Rage days going, uh,
growing up.
but now it's a much more,relaxed and just, having fun
kind of spirit.
Like you can't help but laughwhen something really goes
against you and go battle leagueand like, Oh, of course they
have a Bastiodon in the back.
David Hernandez (14:16):
Why wouldn't they?
PVPoke (14:17):
Why wouldn't they?
David Hernandez (14:19):
So how did the idea of PVP poke come to mind?
PVPoke (14:21):
it first started as a way of thinking how to visualize
Pokemon, matchups.
the entire genesis of the sitecame from the battle timeline of
the, squares for fast moves andcircles for charge moves,
showing how a matchup would playout.
That was like the first thing Istarted sketching out and
(14:44):
building and grew from there.
I built the first version of thesite really in just like a two
or three week sprint over aChristmas break and, it was just
trying to build something asquickly as possible, get
something working cause PVP hadjust come out that December.
I wanted to get something up andrunning, and there's a funny
(15:07):
story behind how PVPokelaunched.
I had it on like a privatepersonal site for a little bit,
and had shared that with, theDiscord members of my local
community.
So they were helping me testthings out, giving feedback and
such, and one of them ended uppassing the link to Swagtips.
who then posted it to Twitter,and I was like, oh no, I have to
(15:30):
actually, like, finish this now.
Um, so I, I very quicklyscrambled, like, I was debating
a couple of names.
I, was thinking like somegeneric, like Pogo PVP or like,
Pokemon Go simulator.
I was thinking of maybe doingsomething with one of the,
(15:53):
monkey Pokemon, like Simisage orSimisear with the word Sim and
ended up settling on PVPoke.
So it was a snap decision oflike, Ooh, I don't know what it
should be, but let's give this ago and I think it worked out.
David Hernandez (16:07):
Now you said the swag tips eventually posted
the link to it and you had toreally run fast to try to get it
set up.
Were there any issues like withit crashing with so many people
trying to access it at thatpoint?
Like, were there any problems?
PVPoke (16:19):
I don't think so back at that particular time.
there have been bumps, likespecific, points, like when GBL
launched, that was a massive,like, oh gosh, there's a ton
more people playing PVP now,because you can just match make
right into game now.
so that was a moment where Idefinitely had to go in and do
(16:41):
some upgrades.
David Hernandez (16:42):
So when GBL launched, you had a significant
uptick of people accessing yoursite at that point.
PVPoke (16:47):
yes.
GBL was really a, like PvP isstill niche in the larger scheme
of Pokemon Go, but even beforeGBL, it was, significantly more
niche with really just limitedto people participating in Silph
competitions.
so like in terms of scale,that's pretty small, compared to
the entire player base ofPokemon Go.
(17:09):
So that was a, pretty bigadjustment.
David Hernandez (17:11):
Over time, PVP poke has evolved.
What has been some of thechallenges that you've
encountered?
PVPoke (17:16):
Thankfully PVPoke hasn't required me to hold it upside
down to evolve it, which hasbeen a blessing.
I think there are a few, therewere definitely a few features
that were the most difficult toadapt to.
I'll say shadow Pokemon was onethat was quite difficult because
now I had to have Basicallyduplicate entries for Pokemon
(17:38):
just cause they had a differentmultipliers.
So that was weird and took a bitof time to think through and get
used to doing.
the one update that really painsme for a long, long time was
the...
Pokemon Go, was it beyond, thelevel 50 update with XLPokemon.
That just completely threw out,a lot of the systems that I had
(18:01):
built and how I wanted to tryand manage the kind of PVPoke,
Pokedex cause all of a suddenPokemon can get a lot stronger
now, but nobody like at the timeit released.
Nobody could power their Pokemonup.
So it was a really big challengeof, well, how do I show this in
the rankings if people can'thave access to it yet?
(18:21):
what I ended up doing wascreating separate Pokemon
entries for the XL versions ofthose Pokemon and as time went
on, as events came out, aspeople got access to more and
more XL Pokemon, I would updatethe rankings with generally,
what people would have access toand that was a huge pain.
(18:42):
I will never do that again.
it was a nightmare of like onecreating duplicate entries was
just messy to manage from likea, Ooh, this Pokemon got a move
update, but Oh, I got to makesure I update it for the XL copy
of that Pokemon as well.
managing cups and move sets and,one of the more challenging
(19:03):
parts of it was on a dailybasis, I get feedback of Hey,
why isn't this XL Pokemon in therankings?
Or why is this XL Pokemon in therankings?
No one can get it.
that was really challenging ofhaving to be the gatekeeper kind
of, of, this Pokemon should bein the rankings.
This Pokemon shouldn't be in therankings.
(19:23):
And that's not really a mess Iwant to, try and maintain ever
again.
So thankfully we're at a pointnow where, eventually I just,
pulled off the bandaid and itwas like, okay, every Pokemon is
going to be level 50 now.
That's that, and noteverything's fine and dandy, but
that was a really challengingperiod in the growth of PVPoke.
David Hernandez (19:43):
Yeah, because that's a lot of time spent, and
I'm guessing you're the onlyperson who works on PVPoke, or
do you have a team?
PVPoke (19:48):
Yeah, it's just me.
it is open source, and there arepeople who contribute code from
time to time, and I superappreciate that as well.
David Hernandez (19:56):
how do you find the balance between trying to
not only do your personal job,but also manage PVPoke, as well
as have whatever, I don't knowif you're a family man, or
whatever your life is outside ofPokemon Go, like, how do you
find a balance between those?
PVPoke (20:08):
That is a great question, and it took me a
number of years to figure outthe answer.
When I first started PVPoke, Iwas just...
Consumed by it, wanting to workon it all day, and, I'd say for
the first year or so, from 2019to just about 2020, it was just
(20:29):
all consuming, and...
Whenever like a Silphannouncement dropped, it was
like, Oh, I have to, stopeverything and go take care of
this.
And that did come at thedetriment of work, of personal
relationships.
that did come to a head andthere was a, moment around, just
before, the pandemic where I wasnot feeling good about the
balance of things and, I wasdebating stopping.
(20:51):
But over the pandemic, over thenext couple of years, I, had a
lot of time to myself, ofcourse, and worked a lot on
finding that balance and,thankful to say today that, the
balance is pretty healthy.
That does mean, for example,that some updates might not come
out as quickly.
Some of the features I mightwant to add or work on, I might
(21:12):
not have time to, but overall,it's really about sustainability
and thinking about, okay, howcan I keep running the site for
the next year, for the next fiveyears, if we're lucky, and
developing the processes andjust managing my time in a way
that can help accomplish that.
David Hernandez (21:29):
a tough balance to find because, you know, I
don't run a website like you do,but for me, for podcasting, when
I first started, I struggledtrying to find that balance
between.
creating an episode, trying todo all this stuff, but also
having a personal life as wellas trying to make sure I have a
house and everything will work.
And the lines get blurredsometimes because you get so
obsessed with one aspect in thiscase for you is the website for
me as a podcast and trying tofind that balance to where,
(21:52):
okay, I like doing what I do,but I don't want to get so burnt
out on it that I stoppedenjoying it, if that makes
sense.
PVPoke (21:57):
Yeah, exactly.
were there any points whenyou're running the podcast where
you made a, deliberate effort ofokay, I think I have to cut back
here of like, say doing X numberof episodes a week or any
moments that jump out at you astrying to find that balance more
deliberately.
David Hernandez (22:13):
Yeah, it was actually when I, stepped away
last year.
I got burnt out.
I felt like this is not me.
I had imposter syndrome like noother and I was like, let me
just back away and I did.
I went to counseling.
I still do from time to time.
I talked to him about that andhe helped me establish better
boundaries and as well as try toget over my imposter syndrome to
a degree.
doing those steps, trying tolearn about, why I like to do
(22:34):
the podcast, cause it's alwaysabout the why with that,
whatever you do.
You got to remind yourself,like, why do you like doing
this?
And if the why becomes to thepoint to where it's like an
obligation and not reallybecause you enjoy it or you've
lost your original reason forwhy you started to begin with at
that point, it might be time totransition.
PVPoke (22:51):
I super appreciate you opening up about that.
I've been going to therapy aswell for a number of years and
that's definitely a talkingpoint for me, of finding balance
and trying to, save off someworkaholic tendencies, as well,
the imposter syndrome of, like,am I giving enough time to this,
am I letting down my fans orlisteners or what have you?
(23:11):
feeling that, pressure to tryand keep that up is a lot.
David Hernandez (23:16):
You've been listening to As the Pokeball
Turns.
We're gonna take a quick break.
We'll be right back.
(24:32):
Now, earlier you said that youwere super close to stopping
PVPoke.
Was it because of the pandemicthat kind of kept you from
stepping away or was there adifferent reason?
what kept you going to continuedoing PVPoke?
PVPoke (24:43):
I just knew rationally that there's no reason I can't
run this website and do it in areasonable, sustainable manner,
like that's possible.
I just have to find the way tohow to do that and even if that
means cutting back on somethings.
for example, I used to do, atraining mode for all the
(25:04):
various Silph cups and GBL cupsand so on, and make, training
analysis graphics and such fromthose on a weekly basis.
David Hernandez (25:12):
Oh wow.
Dang.
That's lot.
PVPoke (25:13):
yeah, that was something I ended up dialing back on and
if you're wondering abouttraining and training analysis,
I have not been able to updatethat in a while, but I am
working on some updates, somefixes that will let me update it
in a more efficient way andhoping to get that out either by
the start of the new season orclose to the start of the new
(25:35):
season.
David Hernandez (25:36):
You mentioned earlier how the XL candy kind of
threw you for a loop.
Has there been anything elsethat's made it difficult for you
to be able to simulate matchupswhen it comes to just running
the website?
PVPoke (25:46):
Yes, that is a great technical discussion.
A few particular things.
One was, I'd say primarilydebuffing moves.
That was a bit of a struggle toget right and still there's room
to improve, just getting howshould the sims play out, what
order should they use moves, andso on.
(26:07):
And then one technical thingabout PVPoke, the sims play out
matchups in a predetermined way.
There's some logic to whenPokemon throw their moves and
how they throw their moves andwhen they shield and so on.
you can go to any Pokemonmatchup, hit the battle button a
hundred times, then it'll alwayscome out the same way.
(26:29):
and that was something Idesigned from the onset of.
Yeah, I think everyone shouldget the same result for all the
matchups instead of doingsomething like, showing like an
average score out of a hundredor a thousand, possibilities or
something like that.
So PVPoke can only do oneresult.
What threw me that for a loopwas when they introduced, moves
(26:50):
that have a chance to debuff.
all of a sudden, you're goingfrom moves do the same thing
every time, which you can tryand work your way down to an
empirical, definitive result fora matchup, to now random things
are happening, anything couldhappen.
What's that gonna look like?
the sims still don't representthose in the best way.
(27:10):
Kingdra with Octozooka, forexample, is a particular
problem.
thankfully, Pokemon Go doesn'thave too much RNG in it, but you
also have, a lag and such tocontend with, so things can
still go awry.
David Hernandez (27:24):
Well, I don't think we want you to try to
simulate lag.
PVPoke (27:29):
Oh, that's another fun, story.
When the sneak and denial bugfirst came around.
For some background on this,Pokemon Go, usually PvP, usually
operates in a very, repeatable,reliable way of, you use your
move, your opponent uses theirmove, and things happen in a
(27:49):
very specific rhythm That youcan, you know, calculate and
simulate and so on.
There was a bug that gotintroduced where using your fast
move at the same time youropponent use a charge move could
cause you to lose your move orget denied, depending on latency
or lag.
there are all sorts of wildtheories of what could or
couldn't prevent fast movedenial.
(28:11):
after this bug came out, I waslike, okay, we'll just wait for
that to get fixed.
And then it stuck around and itstuck around.
And then got to a point where Iwas like, Hmm, should I try and
incorporate this somehow?
it did finally get fixed, but Ialways, just joke to myself that
it would get fixed the momentthat I tried to implement it in
the Sims.
(28:31):
So, you have me to thank forhaving it stick around so long,
because I never bothered.
David Hernandez (28:36):
In what ways do you try to cater your website to
beginners in PvP?
To people who maybe aren'tfamiliar, just barely learning?
PVPoke (28:43):
Yeah, that's a, that's a great question.
It takes, there's a hugeknowledge barrier for entering
PvP in the first place.
Even still, if you were to showa random Pokemon Go player, the
rankings or the battles andsuch, it would probably be
pretty hard to explain.
I do try and keep the initialscreens as clean as possible.
(29:04):
So there's some advanced numbersand such, like...
move counts and things likethat, that are behind, settings
that you have to turn on.
So that's a deliberate choice oftrying not to put too many
numbers on the screen at once.
David Hernandez (29:17):
Try not to overwhelm them with all the
information, because PvP ingeneral, it's hard for them to
learn all the little nuanceslike the energy management, the,
when to use shields, how muchdamage your Pokemon can take,
and that's enough information onits own.
PVPoke (29:30):
that's actually a really good discussion around the type
of numbers that PVPoke uses.
PvPoke has a metric calledbattle rating.
It's just a number between zeroand a thousand that says how
good or bad a matchup is.
So Bastiodon against Altaria,Bastiodon is going to have like
a 900 some rating againstZelteria, and you know that's a
(29:52):
really good matchup.
it's a really simple formula,it's just How much HP does the
winning Pokemon have left?
And part of catering to thebeginners and just trying to
keep things simple as abaseline, that metric is not
perfect, of course, there's alot more to what determines what
is a good or bad matchup thanjust how much HP you have left.
(30:15):
but for the sake of simplicity,that's why there is a battle
rating metric in the firstplace.
And it's going to be really hardto modify that in any way
because there's a lot of thingsyou could look at, like, how
much energy do you have comingout of the matchup?
how many turns would it take toflip the matchup?
And so on.
that would be fun to tweaknumbers for, but probably won't
(30:39):
happen for, the core of PVPoke,just to keep things simple.
David Hernandez (30:44):
So one thing that you've been on record about
when it comes to PvP Poke isabout an app.
And you said that it's just toomuch to do or I guess it's
outside of your realm ofexpertise.
PVPoke (30:55):
That's true, yeah.
I wish I could just snap myfingers and make an app appear.
David Hernandez (31:01):
Have you tried?
PVPoke (31:03):
Uh,
David Hernandez (31:03):
kidding, I'm kidding.
PVPoke (31:06):
wait, I, I think I got it.
Ah,
David Hernandez (31:09):
Nope,
PVPoke (31:09):
not quite, not quite.
David Hernandez (31:10):
we tried.
PVPoke (31:11):
yeah, an app is like probably the number one request
that I see.
unfortunately, things getcomplicated.
App development can be a fairlydifferent undertaking than web
development.
as well there are all sorts ofred tape or yellow tape or what
have you, when it comes togetting things approved for the
(31:33):
App Store or dealing with AppStore reviews.
as much as I'd love to make anapp, it's just not something
that has made sense for me froman effort versus outcome
perspective, it would be a tonof work to try and rebuild the
website as an app.
And when I think about whatcould an app do that the website
(31:54):
can't, the list is fairly, Iguess small.
so My takeaway on that is I justwant to keep building the
website, keep building one codebase, make it as good on mobile
as I can make it.
unfortunately, no plans for anapp, but you can add it to your
home screen and have it worklike an app.
David Hernandez (32:14):
Is it more of a...
I know you said the red tapebehind it, Probably the sprites
is probably what you'rereferring to when it comes to
Pokemon and plus other things.
Is it just like a differentbuilding block between app
development and web developmentto where it'd be like starting
from scratch.
Is that kind of the biggestbarrier when it comes to having
PVPoke as an app?
PVPoke (32:32):
Yeah, for me.
It would be starting fromscratch.
There are definitely ways tobuild a website and an app from
one code base.
And if I were to start all overagain, I would probably look to
do something like that.
I am unfortunately too far downthe river to turn back.
Um, yeah, I unfortunately don'thave the time to rebuild PVPoke
(32:57):
from scratch.
So the way we're going is theway we're going at this point.
And yeah, just trying tomaintain it from day to day.
David Hernandez (33:05):
Well, now here's the big question.
when will Niantic hire you?
Or if they offered you,
PVPoke (33:10):
gosh.
I, I see this,
David Hernandez (33:15):
to go work for Niantic?
PVPoke (33:16):
I see this from time to time on Twitter and I appreciate
the sentiment of anyone who liketags me and says, they should
hire you, you should go work forthem, etc.
I think that like realistically,most companies aren't going to
be hiring random people fromTwitter and I feel like, just
(33:37):
cause I make a website forPokemon Go, it doesn't
necessarily make me qualifiedto, let's say, make a website
for them or assist withdeveloping the app or be a game
designer, things like that.
There was a position open for, Iwant to say it was a game design
position.
I did apply for that and.
I can think of a lot of peoplein the community who did and I
(34:00):
don't know where that role is atnow, but I, hope that there's a
ton of qualified people outthere, so hopefully that role is
in good hands, but from apractical standpoint, Like,
realistically, I'm probably bestoff just keeping doing what I'm
doing, just as Niantic isprobably better off developing
(34:21):
their app without my andcomplaining about bug moves
being bad in PvP or what haveyou.
David Hernandez (34:29):
Bugs need love, man.
PVPoke (34:30):
yeah, so I think, staying our separate ways is
probably for the best.
David Hernandez (34:37):
One question that I was wondering.
So obviously, you know, you'rejust one person running PVPoke,
and you almost came close tostopping the site altogether.
Now, I'm under the assumptionthat you don't plan on stopping
anytime soon.
But have you ever thought ofwhat would you do if there was a
day to where you just couldn'trun PVPoke anymore?
Like, is there any contingencyplan in place or something that
(34:58):
you have in mind in case youneed to step away?
PVPoke (35:00):
Ooh, I'm gonna have to update my will.
I don't have a contingency plan.
if that day came, I wouldprobably try and seek out,
Someone to maintain it or a teamof people to maintain it.
which there are a lot oftalented people in the
community, and there are a lotof people who already are knees
(35:20):
deep in the PVPoke code, doingsome of their own custom
development and Pokemon analysisand things like that.
And thankfully, like, with itbeing open source, if I get hit
by a bus, at least the code'sstill there.
David Hernandez (35:32):
Oh my gosh,
PVPoke (35:35):
Oh, good luck.
But, yeah, that's hard to say.
David Hernandez (35:38):
it's difficult to think about.
And it's something that I wantedto know, just because, we saw
Silph Road closed their doors
PVPoke (35:44):
Yeah,
David Hernandez (35:45):
for me.
And even probably for you, sinceyou grew up, like I always
thought they'd be around andnothing's guaranteed.
So I was just always curious,like what would happen, you
know, if.
PVPoke (35:54):
it Silph was so shocking because at the time it didn't
even, I didn't even think it wasa possibility that they would
just stop.
I think in the wake of Silph,probably what the grassroots
community is going to look likeis, a more, variety of community
tournaments and such going on.
So that's really cool to seethose taking shape And people
(36:14):
still playing just to have fun.
Silph going away is a reallyhard moment for sure in the
history of PVP and I hope peoplestick around.
David Hernandez (36:23):
What did Silph Road mean to you?
PVPoke (36:24):
Ooh, goodness.
I, it was my exposure to, PVP aswell.
without it, like I'd have randomTrainer battles with locals, but
they were by no meanscompetitive and Silph Arena was
really what got people fromthinking like, Oh, Hey, this is
a random cool feature to wantingto practice and build up teams
(36:47):
and study strategy and if itwasn't for Silph, I think PVP
could just be a forgottenfeature.
so that was.
So important for the game and,certainly at least for the,
first two seasons or so I wasreally engaged with the Silph
arena and even past then, justit's been always been a part of
PVP and some of my favorite ingame moments are thanks to
(37:08):
Silph, so, definitely owe them alot.
David Hernandez (37:10):
Well, Matt, PvPpoke, Cocoonerotada,
whichever you go by, you've beena lovely guest.
I do have one last questionbefore we close this taco stand.
PVPoke (37:19):
Ooh, okay.
David Hernandez (37:20):
In my humble opinion, I would say that you're
probably one of the mostimportant people who would
deserve a spot in regards to theMount Rushmore of Pokémon GO
because without your website,the battlers that we have now
would not have the experience,they would not know as much
about the game as they dowithout you.
What goes through your mind whenyou think that the PvP scene
wouldn't be the same withoutyou?
PVPoke (37:41):
Oh boy.
I, when I started PVPoke, it wasfrom the perspective of this is
a fun game I play with myfriends and PVPoke was just an
extension of that fun.
It was, hey, my fellow localplayers, let's check out this
(38:02):
thing I made and, let's playsome tournaments and, I'll see
how I can make it better.
And as time has gone on, I'd saythat mindset of it's just
something I do for fun withfriends has stayed the same in
my mind.
The environment and the scalemight be different, but, I was
(38:23):
just at, NAIC over the summerand getting to meet everyone and
shake hands and say hi and.
do trades and such and do inperson battles was just so
thrilling and the same exactexperience that I had when I
first started playing andbuilding PvPoke.
I try not to overwhelm myselfwith anything beyond that, but
(38:46):
for me, it's still just a funproject that I do for friends
and with friends and it's beenreally awesome to have
everyone's encouragement andsupport along the way.
David Hernandez (38:56):
PvP Poke, that's the show.
Before you do go, if peoplesomehow don't know who you are,
if they want to connect withyou, where can they go to find
you, by all means, please plugaway.
PVPoke (39:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
You can find me on Twitter at@PVPoke.
David Hernandez (39:09):
And I'll make sure to include links to
everything he said in thedescription of today's episode.
Thank you for listening to Asthe Pokeball Turns.
If you want to support the show,consider becoming a patron by
either clicking the link in thedescription or going to
patreon.com/asthepokeballturns.
Now here's a sneak peek for thenext episode of As the Pokeball
Turns.
My name is David Hernandez, and you're
(00:01):
listening to As the PokeballTurns.
(00:44):
Welcome to As the PokéballTurns, where the stories are
real and people still play thisgame.
When it comes to Pokémon Go PvP,There are numerous people who
have contributed to growing thecommunity.
At one point, an individual sawan opportunity to create a
resource that allowed Pokémontrainers to better analyze metas
in Pokémon.
For a while, the best way todetermine a Pokemon's usage was
(01:06):
through testing and theorycrafting.
Eventually, a site was createdthat ranked each possible
Pokemon eligible in whatevercups or metas one could imagine.
Since the site's inception, ithas been used by countless
Pokemon trainers to developteams for Silph Arena, factions,
GO Battle League, And many moregrassroots communities that
continue to pop up.
It has now become an integralpart of the PvP community and a
(01:30):
necessary tool to learn how toutilize if you want to improve
or perfect your PvP battlingskills.
But what were the earlychallenges faced when the site
was in development?
What are the challenges thatcome with maintaining a site
now?
My guest in this episode is theowner of said site, here to not
only answer these questions, butalso share his journey with
Pokemon Go, and who he wasbefore the website.
(01:53):
From Minneapolis, Minnesota,here is his origin story into
the world of Pokemon Go.
This is PvPoke.
Today, I'm joined by a fellowperson who goes by many names,
just like myself.
Some of you may know him asEmpolian Dynamite.
Others may know him asKakunaMatata.
But most of you know him asPvPpoke.
Thank you for coming on theshow,
PVPoke (02:13):
Hey, David, thanks so much for having me.
David Hernandez (02:15):
Definitely, and, I feel honored to have you
on the show because I'veinterviewed a lot of PvP people
on my show.
Your name has consistently comeup for each person.
I think it'd be hard for me todescribe how much you've really
Given to the PVP community andwhat you've done for them.
from the bottom of my heart, Iknow I can't speak for everybody
else, but I just want to saythank you for all that you've
(02:36):
done.
PVPoke (02:37):
I really appreciate hearing that and it's awesome to
hear that other PVP people havecome onto the show and a big
thank you to the community andeveryone as well.
Cause I certainly wouldn't bedoing this without all the
encouragement and support.
David Hernandez (02:52):
Oh, without a doubt.
Now with any other guests,there's always an ordinance
story, but one thing I want toask is it true that you didn't
have a smartphone before Pokemongo?
PVPoke (03:01):
That is a true story.
Yes.
I can vet that story.
Fact.
David Hernandez (03:05):
Fact, what was the reason?
Like, why would you not have asmartphone?
Just if you're willing to share.
PVPoke (03:11):
Yeah, I got my first, texting cell phone in college
and beyond that I didn't reallysee a need for a smartphone, up
until Pokemon Go came out and Iwas like, ooh, I want to do
this, but I'm going to need morethan a flip phone.
So down I went to the Verizonstore and that all worked out.
(03:33):
sometimes despite being a personin technology.
I can stick with things thatjust work for me for a really
long time.
as example, my, my secondmonitor here at my battle
station is 12 year olds, 1080ptelevision cause why not?
And nowadays I feel like I canhardly go anywhere without
(03:53):
needing to look up a map or,imagine like folding out one of
those big roadmaps on a trip.
instead of listening to Siri orwhoever give out, commands and
actually Pokemon Go in a weirdway is a very useful map app.
David Hernandez (04:07):
And you said that because of Pokemon Go,
that's what got you asmartphone.
So what was it about Pokemon Gothat I guess broke your
commitment to not having asmartphone?
PVPoke (04:15):
Ooh, let's see.
It definitely reached a pointof, a fear of missing out that
it's hard to explain just howbig of a phenomenon Pokemon Go
was in those first couple ofweeks, like everybody was out
and playing and I definitelywanted to be part of that and,
definitely don't regret it causeit changed my life in a lot of
ways.
David Hernandez (04:34):
Did you grow up as a Pokemon fan?
PVPoke (04:36):
I did, yes.
I grew up, I think my firstvideo game, in fact, might have
been Pokémon Yellow on the GameBoy Color.
that was my first, jump into thePokémon series.
And, have the cards, watch themovies, and as I grew up,
Pokemon just continued to staywith me.
(04:56):
My, parents assure me that wasjust a fad, but, seems to have
definitely stood the test oftime.
And, I did step back from theseries a little bit, between the
end of high school and beginningof college, but got back into it
with, gen five with Pokemonblack and white and loved those
games, and have been playing themain series since then.
David Hernandez (05:17):
Gen five was such a good generation cause I
don't know.
I liked the compelling storybehind Team Plasma and
developing that ethicalquandary, that's kind of, I'll
say, lying beneath withinPokemon, to where, is it right
to battle with them?
And, stuff like that.
it asks some very toughquestions that Pokemon has not
really done too often.
PVPoke (05:36):
I really liked Pokémon Scarlet and Violet's story.
as a matter of fact, for likeslightly different reasons, but
I think with both Unova andPaldea, there was a lot of
character to dive into there.
And presented Pokémon in a waythat felt like more mature in a
way.
David Hernandez (05:53):
Now, which generation would be your
favorite?
PVPoke (05:55):
I have to go with Generation 3.
Hoenn is near and dear to myheart.
I unfortunately did spend a goodamount of time in the hospital
as a kid, and Pokemon Sapphiredefinitely, was a big help in
getting through those times.
So, very special place in myheart,
David Hernandez (06:13):
what happened that caused you to be in the
hospital so much.
PVPoke (06:16):
as I like to say, coming up on, over the age of 30 now,
my body is falling apart at theseams.
Like you just wake up onemorning and it's oh, that's a
new pain.
But, even as a kid, that was,that was the case.
Had some long, longstandingdigestive issues, stomach
issues, and eventually had toget surgery for it.
that was a challenging time, butPokémon was there and Pokémon
(06:39):
has also been there just kind ofa constant, through my life in
some form or another.
it's very interesting to thinkabout, how we play today and
just for me anyway, it'ssomething that's just always
been there.
David Hernandez (06:49):
For me, I always imagined, during those
tough times, I would alwaysescape into a Pokemon game.
And I always imagined thosePokemon that I had on my team
were kind of always around me ina way.
Kind of like an imaginaryfriend, if I could say.
PVPoke (07:00):
Absolutely.
David Hernandez (07:01):
that's what always helped me get through it,
to where I felt like I wasn'talone going through what I was
needing to go through.
PVPoke (07:07):
yeah, for sure.
And I think that's a, such ahuge core part of pokemon as a
whole, as Pokemon as yourfriends, as your companions,
supporting each other andhowever, sappy as that may seem,
just having some pocket monstersto run around with in a game
always brings a smile to myface, so.
David Hernandez (07:24):
Well, let me ask you a fun question.
Since Gen 3 is your favoritePokemon, if you were going to do
a playthrough, what six Pokemonwould you choose?
PVPoke (07:31):
My six from when I was playing and on replays in Alpha,
Sapphire and such, Blaziken.
Flygon.
I loved Flygon growing up andnow, Altaria was also a
favorite.
I had a soft spot for Absol.
I thought it was super cool.
Aggron.
I liked Aggron.
It was just this big, giant.
(07:53):
steel dinosaur kind of thing.
David Hernandez (07:55):
Yeah, one more.
PVPoke (07:56):
probably Gardevoir, actually.
David Hernandez (07:58):
Are any of those your favorite Like just
without the entire series,Pokemon.
PVPoke (08:01):
Yeah, Blaziken and Flygon, for sure.
And Altaria as well, it's justso cute and fluffy.
David Hernandez (08:07):
So Pokemon go comes out, you upgrade to a
phone.
Like where were the places to goto play?
Like where were the people at?
PVPoke (08:12):
Back then, it's probably split between...
Downtown Minneapolis and theUniversity of Minnesota campus,
which is still a fantastic placeto play really any, campus is,
usually a good hotspot forPokemon Go.
David Hernandez (08:26):
PvP doesn't come out until 2019.
What was your way to play thegame before that?
PVPoke (08:31):
we had a really active Discord for the University of
Minnesota.
my typical, Pokémon Go day mightbe swinging by campus, hitting
up some of the raid lobbies andsome of the nests.
back when raids first came out,as a matter of fact, that was
the, really galvanizing, part ofthe game for the local
(08:53):
community.
At least for me it was, andraiding was just a big part of
Pokemon Go and community lifeback then.
Definitely much less now,unfortunately, but that was a
fun time and lots of raidactivity.
And then of course, obviouslywhen PvP comes along and we
start having, Silph tournamentsand things like that, and that
(09:14):
was a ton of fun.
honestly, that's probably awhole different topic of
discussion.
David Hernandez (09:18):
Just regarding the raiding, I remember when
raids first dropped, and itsounds like you had the same
experience, up in Minnesota.
to where there was just raidtrains everywhere, and we would
just go from raid to raid tryingto, this is before Shinies, and
we were just trying to get aHundo's, I think, that's what we
were doing here in our area, aHundo's, and it was just like
its own community in a way.
PVPoke (09:37):
Yeah.
I remember even the first likeraid days with Articuno, Zapdos,
and Moltres.
We were hyper competitive withthose, we would, split into
teams and try and beat eachother's records for how many
raids we'd do in the hour.
We'd plan out whole routes and,try and figure out, the fastest
way to do them and it was apretty intense time.
David Hernandez (09:58):
Do you remember how many you were able to
complete in an hour?
Just a personal best?
PVPoke (10:03):
think the highest I got was around 30 or so.
That's also like walking andusually I'd try and catch the
Pokemon.
I know some people would justfinish the raid and then run.
but I'd usually try and catch,get as much candy as I could.
David Hernandez (10:22):
I think it was it a tap and go, this is what
it's called, where you run awayfrom the raid boss, if it wasn't
a shiny or a Hundo.
It always bugged me cause I waslike, I really want to catch
this like I paid a dollar for itfor one, but two, two, I feel
like I'm abandoning it, if Idon't try to catch it, it was a
very weird parasocial kind of arelationship I had with these
imaginary creatures at times.
PVPoke (10:41):
And then there's the, peer pressure from the other
side of like, Hey, we got, we'restarting this rain.
It's like, Oh no, I still haveseven balls left.
David Hernandez (10:49):
what team were you actually?
PVPoke (10:51):
I am mystic and I've always been mystic.
David Hernandez (10:55):
Alright, my fellow mystic player rise
PVPoke (10:57):
Yes,
David Hernandez (10:58):
I was wondering if you're a team instinct.
'cause you know, instinct alwayshad, back in those days,
instinct always had six or sevenballs and that was about it.
PVPoke (11:05):
Yeah, that's true.
no, I chose Team Mystic a bitrandomly, there were some people
I met super early on that Inever really saw again after the
first few days of go that werelike, oh, we're gonna be Team
Mystic.
And it's oh, sure, that soundscool.
But I like Team Mystic.
I think Mystic fits how I playand, my personality best, so,
analyzing the numbers, ofcourse.
David Hernandez (11:27):
you ever thought about maybe making a
website around P V P?
I think that you'd be prettygood at it.
That
PVPoke (11:32):
I should think about that.
I'll need to figure out like themath and I don't even know what
it'd be about.
David Hernandez (11:37):
you should call it p v p Poke.
PVPoke (11:39):
That is catchy.
David Hernandez (11:40):
I think
PVPoke (11:41):
I'm going to have to remember that.
David Hernandez (11:42):
I think there's something there.
Anyway, so eventually, ofcourse, P D P comes out in 2019.
What was it about PVP thatinterests you at first?
PVPoke (11:51):
Part of it was just something new and exciting and I
had a feeling I would get intoit pretty competitively,
whatever it ended up being.
So even before any details cameout, just from the announcement,
my mind was starting to churn oflike, okay, what is this going
to look like?
What's going to be good?
And as a matter of fact, beforePvP released, I built a
(12:16):
prototype, of Pokemon Go'scurrent battle system, the gym
battling system as a PvP gameand it was just, like me and,
Alphafeeb playing.
you had six Pokemon, of coursethey were probably all
legendaries, tapping the screenas fast as you could.
So that was, fun and kind of theprecursor to actually making
(12:38):
PVPoke.
David Hernandez (12:39):
How close did you get to what PVP eventually
became or you weren't close atall?
PVPoke (12:43):
Oh gosh, not close at all.
the core, you have the Pokemonout and you can switch them, was
there.
but you had six Pokemon on yourteam.
you could switch at any time, ofcourse it was using the gym
battle system, so it wasn'tlocked into turns, you'd have,
delays between your damage,landing, and, only one charge
move, of course, too.
(13:04):
no shields either.
plenty of differences.
David Hernandez (13:06):
you said PVP, you knew you were going to be
participating.
Are you like very competitive?
is that just something thatdrives you?
PVPoke (13:12):
Yeah, I'd say so.
My competitive fire has a bitrelaxed over the years, but
growing up and at the time I wassuper into a lot of FPS games,
Call of Duty, Halo, Gears ofWar, and at the time that
Pokemon Go came out, I was superinto Destiny and especially the
(13:33):
PvP mode in Destiny called TheCrucible, and I played that
super competitively.
so really that kind of,experience, knowing that a PvP
mode was coming to Go, I justhad an idea of like, yeah, I can
see this as something I couldreally get into.
David Hernandez (13:47):
So on a scale of like, you're bitter that you
lost, like it hurts, to you'relike rage quitting and throwing
things at the wall.
Where do you stand in regards tohow competitive you are?
PVPoke (13:56):
Ooh.
I definitely had my, Call ofDuty Rage days going, uh,
growing up.
but now it's a much more,relaxed and just, having fun
kind of spirit.
Like you can't help but laughwhen something really goes
against you and go battle leagueand like, Oh, of course they
have a Bastiodon in the back.
David Hernandez (14:16):
Why wouldn't they?
PVPoke (14:17):
Why wouldn't they?
David Hernandez (14:19):
So how did the idea of PVP poke come to mind?
PVPoke (14:21):
it first started as a way of thinking how to visualize
Pokemon, matchups.
the entire genesis of the sitecame from the battle timeline of
the, squares for fast moves andcircles for charge moves,
showing how a matchup would playout.
That was like the first thing Istarted sketching out and
(14:44):
building and grew from there.
I built the first version of thesite really in just like a two
or three week sprint over aChristmas break and, it was just
trying to build something asquickly as possible, get
something working cause PVP hadjust come out that December.
I wanted to get something up andrunning, and there's a funny
(15:07):
story behind how PVPokelaunched.
I had it on like a privatepersonal site for a little bit,
and had shared that with, theDiscord members of my local
community.
So they were helping me testthings out, giving feedback and
such, and one of them ended uppassing the link to Swagtips.
who then posted it to Twitter,and I was like, oh no, I have to
(15:30):
actually, like, finish this now.
Um, so I, I very quicklyscrambled, like, I was debating
a couple of names.
I, was thinking like somegeneric, like Pogo PVP or like,
Pokemon Go simulator.
I was thinking of maybe doingsomething with one of the,
(15:53):
monkey Pokemon, like Simisage orSimisear with the word Sim and
ended up settling on PVPoke.
So it was a snap decision oflike, Ooh, I don't know what it
should be, but let's give this ago and I think it worked out.
David Hernandez (16:07):
Now you said the swag tips eventually posted
the link to it and you had toreally run fast to try to get it
set up.
Were there any issues like withit crashing with so many people
trying to access it at thatpoint?
Like, were there any problems?
PVPoke (16:19):
I don't think so back at that particular time.
there have been bumps, likespecific, points, like when GBL
launched, that was a massive,like, oh gosh, there's a ton
more people playing PVP now,because you can just match make
right into game now.
so that was a moment where Idefinitely had to go in and do
(16:41):
some upgrades.
David Hernandez (16:42):
So when GBL launched, you had a significant
uptick of people accessing yoursite at that point.
PVPoke (16:47):
yes.
GBL was really a, like PvP isstill niche in the larger scheme
of Pokemon Go, but even beforeGBL, it was, significantly more
niche with really just limitedto people participating in Silph
competitions.
so like in terms of scale,that's pretty small, compared to
the entire player base ofPokemon Go.
(17:09):
So that was a, pretty bigadjustment.
David Hernandez (17:11):
Over time, PVP poke has evolved.
What has been some of thechallenges that you've
encountered?
PVPoke (17:16):
Thankfully PVPoke hasn't required me to hold it upside
down to evolve it, which hasbeen a blessing.
I think there are a few, therewere definitely a few features
that were the most difficult toadapt to.
I'll say shadow Pokemon was onethat was quite difficult because
now I had to have Basicallyduplicate entries for Pokemon
(17:38):
just cause they had a differentmultipliers.
So that was weird and took a bitof time to think through and get
used to doing.
the one update that really painsme for a long, long time was
the...
Pokemon Go, was it beyond, thelevel 50 update with XLPokemon.
That just completely threw out,a lot of the systems that I had
(18:01):
built and how I wanted to tryand manage the kind of PVPoke,
Pokedex cause all of a suddenPokemon can get a lot stronger
now, but nobody like at the timeit released.
Nobody could power their Pokemonup.
So it was a really big challengeof, well, how do I show this in
the rankings if people can'thave access to it yet?
(18:21):
what I ended up doing wascreating separate Pokemon
entries for the XL versions ofthose Pokemon and as time went
on, as events came out, aspeople got access to more and
more XL Pokemon, I would updatethe rankings with generally,
what people would have access toand that was a huge pain.
(18:42):
I will never do that again.
it was a nightmare of like onecreating duplicate entries was
just messy to manage from likea, Ooh, this Pokemon got a move
update, but Oh, I got to makesure I update it for the XL copy
of that Pokemon as well.
managing cups and move sets and,one of the more challenging
(19:03):
parts of it was on a dailybasis, I get feedback of Hey,
why isn't this XL Pokemon in therankings?
Or why is this XL Pokemon in therankings?
No one can get it.
that was really challenging ofhaving to be the gatekeeper kind
of, of, this Pokemon should bein the rankings.
This Pokemon shouldn't be in therankings.
(19:23):
And that's not really a mess Iwant to, try and maintain ever
again.
So thankfully we're at a pointnow where, eventually I just,
pulled off the bandaid and itwas like, okay, every Pokemon is
going to be level 50 now.
That's that, and noteverything's fine and dandy, but
that was a really challengingperiod in the growth of PVPoke.
David Hernandez (19:43):
Yeah, because that's a lot of time spent, and
I'm guessing you're the onlyperson who works on PVPoke, or
do you have a team?
PVPoke (19:48):
Yeah, it's just me.
it is open source, and there arepeople who contribute code from
time to time, and I superappreciate that as well.
David Hernandez (19:56):
how do you find the balance between trying to
not only do your personal job,but also manage PVPoke, as well
as have whatever, I don't knowif you're a family man, or
whatever your life is outside ofPokemon Go, like, how do you
find a balance between those?
PVPoke (20:08):
That is a great question, and it took me a
number of years to figure outthe answer.
When I first started PVPoke, Iwas just...
Consumed by it, wanting to workon it all day, and, I'd say for
the first year or so, from 2019to just about 2020, it was just
(20:29):
all consuming, and...
Whenever like a Silphannouncement dropped, it was
like, Oh, I have to, stopeverything and go take care of
this.
And that did come at thedetriment of work, of personal
relationships.
that did come to a head andthere was a, moment around, just
before, the pandemic where I wasnot feeling good about the
balance of things and, I wasdebating stopping.
(20:51):
But over the pandemic, over thenext couple of years, I, had a
lot of time to myself, ofcourse, and worked a lot on
finding that balance and,thankful to say today that, the
balance is pretty healthy.
That does mean, for example,that some updates might not come
out as quickly.
Some of the features I mightwant to add or work on, I might
(21:12):
not have time to, but overall,it's really about sustainability
and thinking about, okay, howcan I keep running the site for
the next year, for the next fiveyears, if we're lucky, and
developing the processes andjust managing my time in a way
that can help accomplish that.
David Hernandez (21:29):
a tough balance to find because, you know, I
don't run a website like you do,but for me, for podcasting, when
I first started, I struggledtrying to find that balance
between.
creating an episode, trying todo all this stuff, but also
having a personal life as wellas trying to make sure I have a
house and everything will work.
And the lines get blurredsometimes because you get so
obsessed with one aspect in thiscase for you is the website for
me as a podcast and trying tofind that balance to where,
(21:52):
okay, I like doing what I do,but I don't want to get so burnt
out on it that I stoppedenjoying it, if that makes
sense.
PVPoke (21:57):
Yeah, exactly.
were there any points whenyou're running the podcast where
you made a, deliberate effort ofokay, I think I have to cut back
here of like, say doing X numberof episodes a week or any
moments that jump out at you astrying to find that balance more
deliberately.
David Hernandez (22:13):
Yeah, it was actually when I, stepped away
last year.
I got burnt out.
I felt like this is not me.
I had imposter syndrome like noother and I was like, let me
just back away and I did.
I went to counseling.
I still do from time to time.
I talked to him about that andhe helped me establish better
boundaries and as well as try toget over my imposter syndrome to
a degree.
doing those steps, trying tolearn about, why I like to do
(22:34):
the podcast, cause it's alwaysabout the why with that,
whatever you do.
You got to remind yourself,like, why do you like doing
this?
And if the why becomes to thepoint to where it's like an
obligation and not reallybecause you enjoy it or you've
lost your original reason forwhy you started to begin with at
that point, it might be time totransition.
PVPoke (22:51):
I super appreciate you opening up about that.
I've been going to therapy aswell for a number of years and
that's definitely a talkingpoint for me, of finding balance
and trying to, save off someworkaholic tendencies, as well,
the imposter syndrome of, like,am I giving enough time to this,
am I letting down my fans orlisteners or what have you?
(23:11):
feeling that, pressure to tryand keep that up is a lot.
David Hernandez (23:16):
You've been listening to As the Pokeball
Turns.
We're gonna take a quick break.
We'll be right back.
(24:32):
Now, earlier you said that youwere super close to stopping
PVPoke.
Was it because of the pandemicthat kind of kept you from
stepping away or was there adifferent reason?
what kept you going to continuedoing PVPoke?
PVPoke (24:43):
I just knew rationally that there's no reason I can't
run this website and do it in areasonable, sustainable manner,
like that's possible.
I just have to find the way tohow to do that and even if that
means cutting back on somethings.
for example, I used to do, atraining mode for all the
(25:04):
various Silph cups and GBL cupsand so on, and make, training
analysis graphics and such fromthose on a weekly basis.
David Hernandez (25:12):
Oh wow.
Dang.
That's lot.
PVPoke (25:13):
yeah, that was something I ended up dialing back on and
if you're wondering abouttraining and training analysis,
I have not been able to updatethat in a while, but I am
working on some updates, somefixes that will let me update it
in a more efficient way andhoping to get that out either by
the start of the new season orclose to the start of the new
(25:35):
season.
David Hernandez (25:36):
You mentioned earlier how the XL candy kind of
threw you for a loop.
Has there been anything elsethat's made it difficult for you
to be able to simulate matchupswhen it comes to just running
the website?
PVPoke (25:46):
Yes, that is a great technical discussion.
A few particular things.
One was, I'd say primarilydebuffing moves.
That was a bit of a struggle toget right and still there's room
to improve, just getting howshould the sims play out, what
order should they use moves, andso on.
(26:07):
And then one technical thingabout PVPoke, the sims play out
matchups in a predetermined way.
There's some logic to whenPokemon throw their moves and
how they throw their moves andwhen they shield and so on.
you can go to any Pokemonmatchup, hit the battle button a
hundred times, then it'll alwayscome out the same way.
(26:29):
and that was something Idesigned from the onset of.
Yeah, I think everyone shouldget the same result for all the
matchups instead of doingsomething like, showing like an
average score out of a hundredor a thousand, possibilities or
something like that.
So PVPoke can only do oneresult.
What threw me that for a loopwas when they introduced, moves
(26:50):
that have a chance to debuff.
all of a sudden, you're goingfrom moves do the same thing
every time, which you can tryand work your way down to an
empirical, definitive result fora matchup, to now random things
are happening, anything couldhappen.
What's that gonna look like?
the sims still don't representthose in the best way.
(27:10):
Kingdra with Octozooka, forexample, is a particular
problem.
thankfully, Pokemon Go doesn'thave too much RNG in it, but you
also have, a lag and such tocontend with, so things can
still go awry.
David Hernandez (27:24):
Well, I don't think we want you to try to
simulate lag.
PVPoke (27:29):
Oh, that's another fun, story.
When the sneak and denial bugfirst came around.
For some background on this,Pokemon Go, usually PvP, usually
operates in a very, repeatable,reliable way of, you use your
move, your opponent uses theirmove, and things happen in a
(27:49):
very specific rhythm That youcan, you know, calculate and
simulate and so on.
There was a bug that gotintroduced where using your fast
move at the same time youropponent use a charge move could
cause you to lose your move orget denied, depending on latency
or lag.
there are all sorts of wildtheories of what could or
couldn't prevent fast movedenial.
(28:11):
after this bug came out, I waslike, okay, we'll just wait for
that to get fixed.
And then it stuck around and itstuck around.
And then got to a point where Iwas like, Hmm, should I try and
incorporate this somehow?
it did finally get fixed, but Ialways, just joke to myself that
it would get fixed the momentthat I tried to implement it in
the Sims.
(28:31):
So, you have me to thank forhaving it stick around so long,
because I never bothered.
David Hernandez (28:36):
In what ways do you try to cater your website to
beginners in PvP?
To people who maybe aren'tfamiliar, just barely learning?
PVPoke (28:43):
Yeah, that's a, that's a great question.
It takes, there's a hugeknowledge barrier for entering
PvP in the first place.
Even still, if you were to showa random Pokemon Go player, the
rankings or the battles andsuch, it would probably be
pretty hard to explain.
I do try and keep the initialscreens as clean as possible.
(29:04):
So there's some advanced numbersand such, like...
move counts and things likethat, that are behind, settings
that you have to turn on.
So that's a deliberate choice oftrying not to put too many
numbers on the screen at once.
David Hernandez (29:17):
Try not to overwhelm them with all the
information, because PvP ingeneral, it's hard for them to
learn all the little nuanceslike the energy management, the,
when to use shields, how muchdamage your Pokemon can take,
and that's enough information onits own.
PVPoke (29:30):
that's actually a really good discussion around the type
of numbers that PVPoke uses.
PvPoke has a metric calledbattle rating.
It's just a number between zeroand a thousand that says how
good or bad a matchup is.
So Bastiodon against Altaria,Bastiodon is going to have like
a 900 some rating againstZelteria, and you know that's a
(29:52):
really good matchup.
it's a really simple formula,it's just How much HP does the
winning Pokemon have left?
And part of catering to thebeginners and just trying to
keep things simple as abaseline, that metric is not
perfect, of course, there's alot more to what determines what
is a good or bad matchup thanjust how much HP you have left.
(30:15):
but for the sake of simplicity,that's why there is a battle
rating metric in the firstplace.
And it's going to be really hardto modify that in any way
because there's a lot of thingsyou could look at, like, how
much energy do you have comingout of the matchup?
how many turns would it take toflip the matchup?
And so on.
that would be fun to tweaknumbers for, but probably won't
(30:39):
happen for, the core of PVPoke,just to keep things simple.
David Hernandez (30:44):
So one thing that you've been on record about
when it comes to PvP Poke isabout an app.
And you said that it's just toomuch to do or I guess it's
outside of your realm ofexpertise.
PVPoke (30:55):
That's true, yeah.
I wish I could just snap myfingers and make an app appear.
David Hernandez (31:01):
Have you tried?
PVPoke (31:03):
Uh,
David Hernandez (31:03):
kidding, I'm kidding.
PVPoke (31:06):
wait, I, I think I got it.
Ah,
David Hernandez (31:09):
Nope,
PVPoke (31:09):
not quite, not quite.
David Hernandez (31:10):
we tried.
PVPoke (31:11):
yeah, an app is like probably the number one request
that I see.
unfortunately, things getcomplicated.
App development can be a fairlydifferent undertaking than web
development.
as well there are all sorts ofred tape or yellow tape or what
have you, when it comes togetting things approved for the
(31:33):
App Store or dealing with AppStore reviews.
as much as I'd love to make anapp, it's just not something
that has made sense for me froman effort versus outcome
perspective, it would be a tonof work to try and rebuild the
website as an app.
And when I think about whatcould an app do that the website
(31:54):
can't, the list is fairly, Iguess small.
so My takeaway on that is I justwant to keep building the
website, keep building one codebase, make it as good on mobile
as I can make it.
unfortunately, no plans for anapp, but you can add it to your
home screen and have it worklike an app.
David Hernandez (32:14):
Is it more of a...
I know you said the red tapebehind it, Probably the sprites
is probably what you'rereferring to when it comes to
Pokemon and plus other things.
Is it just like a differentbuilding block between app
development and web developmentto where it'd be like starting
from scratch.
Is that kind of the biggestbarrier when it comes to having
PVPoke as an app?
PVPoke (32:32):
Yeah, for me.
It would be starting fromscratch.
There are definitely ways tobuild a website and an app from
one code base.
And if I were to start all overagain, I would probably look to
do something like that.
I am unfortunately too far downthe river to turn back.
Um, yeah, I unfortunately don'thave the time to rebuild PVPoke
(32:57):
from scratch.
So the way we're going is theway we're going at this point.
And yeah, just trying tomaintain it from day to day.
David Hernandez (33:05):
Well, now here's the big question.
when will Niantic hire you?
Or if they offered you,
PVPoke (33:10):
gosh.
I, I see this,
David Hernandez (33:15):
to go work for Niantic?
PVPoke (33:16):
I see this from time to time on Twitter and I appreciate
the sentiment of anyone who liketags me and says, they should
hire you, you should go work forthem, etc.
I think that like realistically,most companies aren't going to
be hiring random people fromTwitter and I feel like, just
(33:37):
cause I make a website forPokemon Go, it doesn't
necessarily make me qualifiedto, let's say, make a website
for them or assist withdeveloping the app or be a game
designer, things like that.
There was a position open for, Iwant to say it was a game design
position.
I did apply for that and.
I can think of a lot of peoplein the community who did and I
(34:00):
don't know where that role is atnow, but I, hope that there's a
ton of qualified people outthere, so hopefully that role is
in good hands, but from apractical standpoint, Like,
realistically, I'm probably bestoff just keeping doing what I'm
doing, just as Niantic isprobably better off developing
(34:21):
their app without my andcomplaining about bug moves
being bad in PvP or what haveyou.
David Hernandez (34:29):
Bugs need love, man.
PVPoke (34:30):
yeah, so I think, staying our separate ways is
probably for the best.
David Hernandez (34:37):
One question that I was wondering.
So obviously, you know, you'rejust one person running PVPoke,
and you almost came close tostopping the site altogether.
Now, I'm under the assumptionthat you don't plan on stopping
anytime soon.
But have you ever thought ofwhat would you do if there was a
day to where you just couldn'trun PVPoke anymore?
Like, is there any contingencyplan in place or something that
(34:58):
you have in mind in case youneed to step away?
PVPoke (35:00):
Ooh, I'm gonna have to update my will.
I don't have a contingency plan.
if that day came, I wouldprobably try and seek out,
Someone to maintain it or a teamof people to maintain it.
which there are a lot oftalented people in the
community, and there are a lotof people who already are knees
(35:20):
deep in the PVPoke code, doingsome of their own custom
development and Pokemon analysisand things like that.
And thankfully, like, with itbeing open source, if I get hit
by a bus, at least the code'sstill there.
David Hernandez (35:32):
Oh my gosh,
PVPoke (35:35):
Oh, good luck.
But, yeah, that's hard to say.
David Hernandez (35:38):
it's difficult to think about.
And it's something that I wantedto know, just because, we saw
Silph Road closed their doors
PVPoke (35:44):
Yeah,
David Hernandez (35:45):
for me.
And even probably for you, sinceyou grew up, like I always
thought they'd be around andnothing's guaranteed.
So I was just always curious,like what would happen, you
know, if.
PVPoke (35:54):
it Silph was so shocking because at the time it didn't
even, I didn't even think it wasa possibility that they would
just stop.
I think in the wake of Silph,probably what the grassroots
community is going to look likeis, a more, variety of community
tournaments and such going on.
So that's really cool to seethose taking shape And people
(36:14):
still playing just to have fun.
Silph going away is a reallyhard moment for sure in the
history of PVP and I hope peoplestick around.
David Hernandez (36:23):
What did Silph Road mean to you?
PVPoke (36:24):
Ooh, goodness.
I, it was my exposure to, PVP aswell.
without it, like I'd have randomTrainer battles with locals, but
they were by no meanscompetitive and Silph Arena was
really what got people fromthinking like, Oh, Hey, this is
a random cool feature to wantingto practice and build up teams
(36:47):
and study strategy and if itwasn't for Silph, I think PVP
could just be a forgottenfeature.
so that was.
So important for the game and,certainly at least for the,
first two seasons or so I wasreally engaged with the Silph
arena and even past then, justit's been always been a part of
PVP and some of my favorite ingame moments are thanks to
(37:08):
Silph, so, definitely owe them alot.
David Hernandez (37:10):
Well, Matt, PvPpoke, Cocoonerotada,
whichever you go by, you've beena lovely guest.
I do have one last questionbefore we close this taco stand.
PVPoke (37:19):
Ooh, okay.
David Hernandez (37:20):
In my humble opinion, I would say that you're
probably one of the mostimportant people who would
deserve a spot in regards to theMount Rushmore of Pokémon GO
because without your website,the battlers that we have now
would not have the experience,they would not know as much
about the game as they dowithout you.
What goes through your mind whenyou think that the PvP scene
wouldn't be the same withoutyou?
PVPoke (37:41):
Oh boy.
I, when I started PVPoke, it wasfrom the perspective of this is
a fun game I play with myfriends and PVPoke was just an
extension of that fun.
It was, hey, my fellow localplayers, let's check out this
(38:02):
thing I made and, let's playsome tournaments and, I'll see
how I can make it better.
And as time has gone on, I'd saythat mindset of it's just
something I do for fun withfriends has stayed the same in
my mind.
The environment and the scalemight be different, but, I was
(38:23):
just at, NAIC over the summerand getting to meet everyone and
shake hands and say hi and.
do trades and such and do inperson battles was just so
thrilling and the same exactexperience that I had when I
first started playing andbuilding PvPoke.
I try not to overwhelm myselfwith anything beyond that, but
(38:46):
for me, it's still just a funproject that I do for friends
and with friends and it's beenreally awesome to have
everyone's encouragement andsupport along the way.
David Hernandez (38:56):
PvP Poke, that's the show.
Before you do go, if peoplesomehow don't know who you are,
if they want to connect withyou, where can they go to find
you, by all means, please plugaway.
PVPoke (39:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
You can find me on Twitter at@PVPoke.
David Hernandez (39:09):
And I'll make sure to include links to
everything he said in thedescription of today's episode.
Thank you for listening to Asthe Pokeball Turns.
If you want to support the show,consider becoming a patron by
either clicking the link in thedescription or going to
patreon.com/asthepokeballturns.
Now here's a sneak peek for thenext episode of As the Pokeball
Turns.
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