April 17, 2024 • 36 mins
With increases in food costs in recent years and the desire to eat healthier, canning foods to preserve them is a topic of interest for Canadians. People want to understand what is in the food they eat and where their food comes from. This podcast explores the topic of canning and the safety and science behind it as well as best practices for making canning at home a safe and successful experience. Connor Flynn and Martha Rogers, both Certified Master Food Preservers, provide their input to help develop knowledge, skills and confidence to safely preserve foods at home.
Host Clinton Monchuk
Clinton Monchuk grew up on a mixed dairy, beef and grain family farm outside of Lanigan, Saskatchewan. He received his Bachelor’s of Science in Agriculture majoring in Agricultural Economics from the University of Saskatchewan and Masters of Business Administration in Agriculture from the University of Guelph. Clinton has enjoyed numerous roles across Canada, the United States and Mexico as a researcher, educator, manager, economist and director of trade policy.
In 2016, Clinton accepted the role of Executive Director with Farm & Food Care Saskatchewan to promote farming and ranching to consumers. Clinton understands the value of increasing public trust in agriculture and actively promotes engagement between the agriculture industry and consumers.
Clinton, Laura and their children Jackson and Katelyn, are active partners on their family grain and layer farm in Saskatchewan and cattle ranch in Oklahoma.
Guest: Chef Connor Flynn
Connor Flynn is a Red Seal-endorsed chef and experienced High School Educator. His culinary journey has led him to explore various roles, including cheesemaker, bread baker, and most recently, a Certified Master Food Preserver (Cornell), showcasing his passion for food preservation. With over twenty years of experience in the food industry, Connor's deep love for educating others about food is the driving force behind his career.
Guest: Dr. Martha Rogers
Dr. Martha Rogers is a retired university professor in Health with a lengthy career as researcher, teacher, and academic leader. In 2018 she became one of Canada’s few Certified Master Food Preservers (Cornell) pursuing a lifelong passion for food preservation. She is committed to helping people develop the knowledge, skills, and confidence they need to safely preserve food at home. She has designed and facilitated many food preservation workshops, is author of a bi-weekly newspaper column called “Worth Preserving”, and owner of The Valley Preservery in Kimberley Ontario.
Resources:
Fresh preserving
Bernardin
National Centre for Home Food Preservation
Healthy Canning
University of Georgia Extension, So Easy to Preserve
Episode Credits: Research and writing by Dorothy Long and Penny Eaton, Produced and edited by Angela Larson, Music by Andy Ellison-Track title: Gravel Road
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Speaker 2 (00:07):
From Canadian Food Focus. This is Ask a Farmer.
I'm your host Clinton Monchuk,a Saskatchewan farmer. In this
podcast, we talk to foodexperts to answer your
questions about your food.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Welcome to the podcast, everyone. Today we're
going to be talking a littlebit about preserving food. Now,
we've realized just in recentyears the cost of food has kind
of changed our desire to eathealthier. Canning food is a
topic of interest now amongstCanadians. So people want to
understand more about this.
(00:51):
We're going to be exploringthis topic more in depth, and
as I mentioned, I am definitelynot in the know on this
subject. We have some expertswith us today. So with this
episode, we're going to haveConnor Flynn and Martha Rogers
who are both certified MasterFood preservers, help us
develop some of this knowledge,the skills and the confidence
(01:13):
around how to safely preservefood. So how are we doing
Connor and Martha?
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Well, we're just great and we're so excited to
be here today, talking aboutour favorite topic, which is
food preservation. And canningis one of the most common
methods of food preservationthat we know about . So we're
very excited. And Connor, whatabout you?
Speaker 5 (01:38):
Yeah, I'm very excited to dive deeper into
this topic and as part of whatI do for my job, teaching
people about it, and my passionfor food and, and preserving
it. And I'm a family man, so aspart of what we do as a family,
we really do a lot of foodpreservation , because it
brings back lots of memoriesfrom my childhood, but to
(02:00):
instill new memories for mychildren and just for the sheer
practicality of preservingthings when it's harvest time
and saving money and preservingvegetables and fruits when
they're in their prime. So,yeah, I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Martha, and maybe we'll start with you. Just give
us a little bit of a backgroundof some of your experience. I
also want to know what involvesbeing a certified master food
preserver. That's a new one forme, so just maybe explain that
a little bit more in some ofyour background. Then we'll hit
Connor up.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
I've always been really interested in food. It's
been a passion of mine forever.
I was a university professoruntil relatively recently in
faculty of health, but I alwaysloved food and loved preserving
food. And then I stumbled uponthe Master Food Preserver
program, which is availableacross the US through many
(02:56):
university cooperativeextension programs. And I
decided to take it , which wasthrough Cornell in New York.
And it's just a three dayintensive program. And then if
you want become certified, youhave to spend about a year
developing a portfolio thatwill demonstrate your
(03:18):
competence in all forms of foodpreservation. And then they,
you know, give you thecertification. And that's where
I met Connor.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
And Connor. Let's talk a little bit about you.
Speaker 5 (03:31):
My love for food started at a young age with my
grandmother , baking pies andmaking pickles and a lot of
fond memories. And I juststumbled into it ironically ,
teaching what I teach today ina high school program,
hospitality and tourism. Ibecame a chef, a cheese maker,
I was in food sales. I'vemarried into a farming family
(03:54):
now, so I help out on theirfarms. So it was all real full
circle for me, understandingthe farming side. And when I
started teaching, we werepreserving food just out of
sheer necessity. We, at theschool I work at, we get food
donated through somethingcalled the London Food
Coalition, which is anorganization that collects
perished food and drops it offto locations that are in need.
(04:18):
And , sadly at our school, wehave a lot of mouths to feed.
So we were getting hundreds ofpounds of tomatoes at a time ,
or fruit that was going off,and we needed a way to utilize
it to feed more students downthe road. We couldn't feed, we
couldn't get rid of it rightaway. So we were essentially
just starting to preserve. Ihad some experience doing this
(04:41):
in kitchens, and I just starteddoing it. And how I really came
in contact with Martha was whenwe had a health inspection here
at the school, and the healthinspector was asking, how are
you guys doing this safely? Ihad already looked into what
was available in this country,in this province, in terms of
training. And the long andshort of it is there wasn't
(05:02):
much available. So I kind ofcalled her bluff and, and just
said, Hey , I'm just really notsure where you want me to get
this training that you'respeaking of to satisfy their
concerns from a food safetyperspective. So during that
time, I had found Martha, Ithink just by Googling. And I
(05:23):
contacted her and she suggestedgoing to Cornell, and that's
sort of how we met. So I thinkthat that sums it up in a
nutshell.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
And we both, I think, share a real passion for
helping develop some kind ofinfrastructure for food
preservation in Canada, whichthere is nothing, absolutely
nothing compared to the US. Andboth Connor and I really love
teaching in many formats, likewhether it's small group
(05:54):
workshops, or whether it's inthe classroom, or whether it's
writing to communicateinformation about food
preservation. Butfundamentally, we would like to
see much more of a strongerinfrastructure in Canada. And
yeah, we have a long way to go.
Speaker 5 (06:14):
Yeah, we're behind the times in comparison to the
US and her and I are reallytrying to change that now.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
So it's interesting because , you know, just in
that conversation about thedifferences between Canada and
the United States, I thinkyou're seeing more people
though up here in Canada aretaking an interest in it. So a
lot of the people who listen tothis podcast are probably
thinking is there anopportunity for me to start
preserving food ? So let's justkind of break down some of
(06:43):
those basics for new beginnersthat might be interested in
getting into the process andjust talk about some of the
food safety and the, thescience behind preserving food
. So I'm going ask you bothright off the start , what are
some of the different ways,we've mentioned a little bit
about canning, but maybe youcould explain that a little bit
more in depth. And some of theother ways and methods that we
(07:05):
preserve foods.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
We all do some form of food preservation because we
refrigerate things or we freezefood, that's food preservation.
But there are many othermethods: fermentation is very
popular these days. It's sohealthy for you. We have
dehydration, so dehydrating ordrying of all kinds of foods.
(07:30):
And then we have canning andvarious types of canning. So
there are many, many types ofmethods of food preservation.
And Connor , I don't know ifyou want to add something to
that.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
There's a lot of misinformation out there. And
understanding the fundamentalsof food preservation, all the
different forms is really thekey. And I have five children,
and right down to my daughterwho's almost three, you know,
like we were making jam. Ijust, I think people, once they
can understand the fundamentalsof the safety, the food safety
(08:05):
part, I think people should notbe so intimidated. And like so
many things in our world, wehave this excess of
information. So it's just goingto the right sources. And, like
most things, we have goodfundamentals. We can apply
these to all the differenttypes. And I find myself--it's
like layers of an onion. I'vedone dehydrating, and then when
(08:29):
I get deeper into it, it justgoes deeper. I mean, there's so
much history and culture in allthese different methods. So , I
know we're going to be focusingon canning today, so I guess
let's continue on that.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
So maybe let's go right into that then. Some of
the different methods ofcanning. And I'm going to try
and pull in some of myexperience with my family in
doing this, which, when I sayquote unquote family, it really
was my mom. What are some ofthose different methods in
terms of canning of fruits and,and vegetables that we could
use? And how does this affectsome of the food safety
(09:05):
[concerns]? What are some of the things to watch out for?
Speaker 5 (09:09):
Like any kind of safe food handling, we need to
focus first on the environmentwe're in, where we're going to
be preserving food-- in thiscase, canning. You know, when
we jump into this topic, wesometimes get ahead a little
bit and focus on, well, whatequipment and what are the
methods and how do we do that?
But we need to start, I think,right at when we walk into the
(09:32):
kitchen, we need to have cleanhands, clean workspace, clean
utensils and and good qualityproduce. This is, I think, the
first place to start. I don'tknow if Martha wants to add to
that.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
No, I totally agree with that. And in our canning
world it's called bacterialload. So you want to make sure
that the bacteria that youknow, naturally occur in your
kitchens and your hands and allof that, that every space is
clean so that you keep the loadto a minimum. But in terms of
canning, the fundamentaldifference, there are several
(10:05):
types of approaches to canning.
And , one approach is for highacid foods, and that includes
fruits. Most fruits--not melonsand not figs--but most fruits
and any vegetable that has beenacidified, such as you would do
(10:28):
with pickles, for example, youadd vinegar. So that makes it
more acidic. Those types offruits and vegetables can be
safely canned using a waterbath canner , or an atmospheric
steam canner. We'll get intomore detail on that. But you
can also can low acid foods,and that would include
vegetables, meats, fish,poultry, and so on. But it
(10:54):
requires a different approachto canning, and that involves
pressure canning. So thetemperature has to be raised to
at least 240 degrees Fahrenheitin order to safely can foods
that are low in acid . Sothat's the basic question, are
my products low acid ? Am Idoing low acid canning, or am I
(11:17):
doing high acid canning? Sothat's the the fundamental
question, I guess, to decidewhat approach to canning you're
going use from there. Then wecan go into methods.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Just a water bath with some of these fruits and
vegetables. Is that what youdo? Just to kind of clean it,
get a good stock and you know,go to town or..?
Speaker 5 (11:40):
I mean, it's pretty simple. We...you're going to
wash the vegetables and remove,depending on what you're using,
you might peel it and then washit. Yeah. And just not, don't
use anything that's not, thatdoesn't look good. And in some
cases, we blanch to lower thebacterial load when we blanch.
It also affects what'shappening inside the jar when
(12:01):
we are water bath canning.
Right? So sometimes when we'rewater bath canning, we can have
something called siphoning.
Siphoning would be where welose some brine and we have too
much of a head space betweenthe top of the lid and the jar
. But so sometimes we blanch tocreate less swelling of
whatever we're canning. And insome cases, the blanching is to
(12:24):
kill the bacterial load thatmight be present on top of the
veg or on the vegetables.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I've got to plead ignorance here. Can you explain
what blanching is? I am 100%greenhorn on this.
Speaker 5 (12:35):
Yeah. So it'd be, it would be like quickly cooking
vegetables, for example, ifmaybe with your mother you saw
her peeling tomatoes orpeaches. So this would be a
quick dunk into boiling water.
And then generally it's removedand you're either going into an
ice bath or cold water, whichthen stops the cooking. And in
this case, with the tomatoesand peaches, it wilts the skin
(12:56):
and you can peel the skin offvery easily.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Yeah. Here I'm thinking Blanche from Golden
Girls here, and trying to thinkif she made up something
.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
That's good.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
So Martha, you had actually mentioned a little bit
about the acidity level, right?
So if it's, there's adifference between the two acid
, how do you even know that?
Like, is there somewhere whereyou can check on some of the
sites, or...?
Speaker 4 (13:22):
There is, but I would say that Connor and I
agree, and what we wereinstilled with in our program
was that you need to use arecipe that is from a reputable
source that's developed withina test kitchen over the last 20
years. So things like ,Bernardin's website or book ,
(13:43):
Ball[Mason Jars], Test Kitchens of America, Canadian Living...where the recipes themselves have been actually developed in a test kitchen where they determine the acidity level. Because it's one thing to say, oh, well, I've got strawberry
jam. That's pretty easy to assess. The acidity level strawberries are high in acid, but if you
aredoing something like a relish or a salsa, you have a mixture of vegetables. So the complexity of determining acidity is much greater. And this is why
wewould strongly recommend not just Googling recipes to choose; you need to use a reputable source, because it's not just acidity, but the processing time in a test kitchen is determined using a thermocouple. So they, they put a probe into the jar to assess how long it takes for heat penetration to actually get into the jar. So it's going to be different between a jar of jam or a jar of salsa. So it's really important, number one, to choose a recipe that is modern and from a reputable source or from the National Center for Home Food Preservation, they have a million recipes. But don't Google, and don't just like think you can wing
it. This is not for winging it.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
It leads me to the next question. So obviously
there's been advancements inthe science and the technology
around this through the yearsthat you do actually have these
test kitchens set up to givethe general kind of accepted
practices and the bestpractices for this. Do you feel
that they're constantlyevolving? Like is there always
new things that are coming outwhen it comes to technology and
(15:35):
science on this?
Speaker 5 (15:37):
Yeah. And in terms of evolving, I think for sure ,
like if we look at cheesemaking as a parallel, people
in, in Europe , and maybe inCanada, were dying of listeria
poisoning because at one point,cheese making was an artisan
craft. And until the sciencecaught up, it's now what we see
(15:57):
it today, which is part scienceand part artisan. That's kind
of where we're going with thecanning, except in terms of the
creativity. As a chef, I had areally hard time kind of
setting that down, where Iwanted to throw a little bit of
this or add a little bit ofthat into this salsa or to this
chutney or to this relish. AndI've really become a believer
in that creativity that I wantto put into the jar, I just do
(16:22):
that after. So I just takewhatever the product is that
I'm preserving, and try to justspend that energy and passion
into finding the best of thebest, you know, the best
peaches, the best tomatoes, andthen taking it and preserving
it at its prime. And then whenit comes out of the jar, that's
when I use my creativity again.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
I think Connor and I are agreed . We've done, I
don't know , thousands andthousands of jars of this and
that. And we have committed tousing recipes from reputable
sources, modern, et cetera .
And neither of us have everfelt constrained in any way by
(17:06):
making this type of commitment.
So it's a basic principle ofsafe canning. It's an example
of how things have progressedin terms of the science. Years
ago, it was thought that alljars and lids had to be
sterilized, and it was a bigproduction for everybody to
(17:27):
have to sterilize everythingand then sterilize the can the
lids before you even got to thecanning process. But now,
through all the research, it'sbeen proven that if your
processing time is longer, 10minutes or longer, you don't
have to sterilize the jars. Itmakes things a whole heck of a
lot easier. They have to be hotand warm to receive the hot
(17:51):
jam, but they don't have to besterilized. And just recently,
like within the last, I don'tknow , seven or eight years , a
lot of research has been doneon the lids so that even now ,
change has been made where youdon't have to warm the lids.
Normally, like when, when wewere doing it, you'd have to
(18:13):
warm the lids to soften theadhesive that would create the
vacuum. But now you don't evenhave t o do that. They've
proven through the researchthat the lids will adhere even
a t from room temperature. Soyou don't have to do that. So
all this new information iscoming all the time. So it's
great and exciting to keep ontop of it. Not to mention this
(18:36):
i s a whole lot simpler thanlike, what it was before,
sterilizing everything.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
O kay. Now we've reached the part of the podcast
where we talk about the funfarm fact. Did you know that
here in Canada, and this is nota really fun farm fact, but we
waste 50 million tons of foodevery year. This works out to
(19:04):
roughly about 79 kilograms peryear per household. A nd this
was based on some informationthat we pulled from the
Government of Canada here in2024. Now, this is one of those
things that when I see a statlike this, and I think that we
can probably take some of thisfood and put it to better use,
right? And this is w herepreserving some of these
(19:26):
products that are maybe gettingclose to the end o f life in
say, our fridge or somethinglike that, and making them into
something that we can use lateron. I want to know both of your
thoughts on this in terms ofhow we can reduce our own w
aste i n our households byusing, you know, preserving
practices.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
Well, I know Connor's been on the
dehydration plan. Do you wantto talk about that?
Speaker 5 (19:52):
Yeah, sure. I mean , this one sort of infuriates me
a little bit just because wehave so many hungry mouths in
our world and our country, Andeven at this school, we're in a
place where we can't take ahome-canned item and donate it
to the soup kitchen, or evenfrom a industrial kitchen, they
won't accept that, right? Sohopefully we can change that.
But yeah, at home, just asimple example. I've got my
(20:14):
wife fully trained. She's anunofficial master food
preserver. And she, if we don'tknow what we're going to do
with some produce that's in thefridge and we notice we're
going to be out of town orsomething, she just simply
dehydrates it, you know,mushrooms , tomatoes... And
I'll tell you , fun fact, Ithink you can fit a bushel of
(20:39):
tomatoes in a two-liter jar--Iforget , a two or three liter
jar. So what's interestingabout dehydrating is it takes
so much moisture out and itweighs nothing , that you can
actually pack quite a bit ofproduce into a small container,
and it's very simple torehydrate that. So I am on team
(21:00):
dehydrate. It's so simple andquick to do, where canning, you
really have to commit to a fullday if you're going to be
canning something.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
It's a way of thinking as much as it is
knowledge of how to do it. Soit's just like, to change your
mindset. Yes, change yourmindset. Don't throw out
anything. Well, unless it'sbad, of course.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Unless it's
bad. If it's growing legs, yeah
, you better get rid of it . Interms of some of the, what I
would say, maybe outdated ,practices that you've heard of
or misconceptions aroundcanning, what are some of the
most common that I think a lotof our listeners have probably
(21:47):
heard that, that you just haveto say No, that's, that's in
fact incorrect.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
One thing is wax. We used to put, make jams and
jellies and put the melted waxon the top. That's a very
common misconception. In fact,they shouldn't even sell it
anymore. The design of the waxwas to keep oxygen away from
the jam or the jelly so that itwould prevent the growth of
(22:12):
mold and bacteria. But itdoesn't really have any
evidence to support that thatis the case over the long term
. Whereas our new lids will beeffective once they've sealed
for 18 months to two years, oreven longer, honestly. So
that's one thing waxing. Andone thing that people don't
(22:34):
think about is the influence ofaltitude on canning. So
altitude, the higher that youare, the lower the boiling
point. So it takes longer forthings to process in a water
bath or a pressure canner. Soit's very important to actually
know your altitude. So where Iam, I live in a valley. I'm at
(22:57):
730 feet, which is low. So allof the recipes that are
developed in test kitchens aredeveloped for altitudes of
between zero and a thousandfeet. Hmm . So if it's over a
thousand feet, then you have toadjust the processing time to
accommodate that. So even if Idrive up the hill to make jam
(23:22):
with my friend up up the hill,I'm already at 1400 or 1600
feet. So we have to, at thatpoint, make the adjustment of
five minutes to our processingtime. Or similarly , if you're
doing pressure canning, theywill tell you how much pressure
that needs to be added to yourprocessing time. So if you're
(23:43):
using really good qualityrecipes, those recipes will
tell you, you need to adjustthe processing time by five
minutes, add five minutes or 10minutes, or you need to add
more pressure in pounds to yourpressure canning . So that's
one thing. And my third thing ,when Connor was talking about
(24:04):
tomatoes, I was doing aworkshop and somebody said,
well, my family likes to addbaking soda to the tomato sauce
when they're canning it,because it, it makes the
tomatoes less acidic. Oh boy.
Really the wrong, wrong thing.
Tomatoes hover around 6.7 , 6.8, there's a range. Now because
(24:30):
of hybridization, some tomatoeshave been designed to be less
acidic. But adding baking soda,which is alkaline to tomatoes,
is a no-no.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
So what kind of disaster would happen from
putting baking soda to can atomato? Because you're changing
the pH level.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Exactly. Changing the pH level puts you at risk
of botulism. That is the risk.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Ah, that's the risk, okay.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Gotcha.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
So adding something alkaline like baking soda is
really, really in the wrongdirection and is extremely
unsafe because it really putsyou at risk of botulism.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
That's a really good point to make sure all our
listeners understand. And theother point around altitude, I
live in the prairies, okay? Soyou don't really think of high
altitudes, but where we farm,it's right around 1600 feet
above sea level . Wow. So it ,you would, you would have to
actually make thoseadjustments, right ?
Speaker 4 (25:32):
Yes , that's right.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
You don't think of it, but on this side of the
Rockies, yeah, it actually isfairly elevated. So that's a
really good point for us torealize too. One of the things
is , as somebody that's reallynew to this game and trying to
learn a little bit more, whatwould you recommend Connor , as
if you're a beginner in termsof canning, what would be that
(25:53):
first thing that you shouldmake at home that that kind of
gives you, that get up and goto say, okay, I can do this, I
can do this a little bit morewith something else.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
I don't know if I'd start with pickles. There's
some complexities there , abouthow do you get a pickle crisp
and all these things. Buthonestly, one of my favorite
things, and my kids will eat ajar at a time, is pickled
asparagus. I just don't find itvery difficult. You can cut the
asparagus right to size. It'seasy to get into the jar
because of the shape of theasparagus. It's just straight ,
(26:24):
straight up. So it's justsomething that's pretty easy.
And I think also, it's notsomething that a lot of people
have thought about eating, buthonestly , when I go into my
pantry or my cold cellar ,that's my number one favorite
thing to eat pickled isasparagus. Yeah. And it's a
nice one that you can get outof the way in the canning
(26:46):
season quite early, because ifyou become a serious canner in
the summertime, it's very busy.
And it's sort of like, no , thestrawberries are ready this
week, this week, it has tohappen. With asparagus, it's
earlier in the season, at leastin this province. And you can
kind of get that under yourbelt and there's no pressure
(27:07):
that, you know, the next weekyou have to do peaches or
pickles, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (27:12):
You know, Martha, you touched on it a little bit
around botulism. What othermethods other than don't put
baking soda in our canning,especially with tomatoes. But
what other kind of methods canwe ensure in our kitchens that
we're doing the properprecautions to prevent botulism
(27:33):
or, or even other foodborneillnesses?
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Well, I would say the number one thing is to
follow a good quality recipe,modern and from a reputable
source. With botulism, theincidence is actually very
small across the country, butif it does happen, it's very,
very severe. And I mean, it canlead to deaths and so on. As
(28:00):
everybody knows, botulism tendsto relate to like, low acid
foods. So vegetables orinappropriately canned meats
and fish and poultry and soforth. So that's why it's very,
very important to actuallyfollow the recipes. But if you
do that and you understand thetheory, the science that, you
(28:25):
know, if we're working withvegetables or meat or fish or
poultry, it has to be donecorrectly using a pressure
canner. The pressure cannerwill raise the temperature
through pressure to 240degrees, which will kill the
heat-resistant spores ofbotulism because
they're...They're really kindof a nifty bacterium because
(28:48):
they can create these specialspores around themselves when
they're exposed to heat, andthat protects them against the
heat of, let's say a water bathcanner. That's why you have to
go to a higher pressure cannersituation. So it really
basically comes down tofollowing up a proper recipe
(29:08):
and method. And it's good.
Like, we can all do this, andit's so rewarding to actually,
you know, go in your garden orgo to the local market and pick
up whatever is growing and dosomething with it. It's so
satisfying.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah . So, this kind of gets to the next one. And
this question was, you know,using grandma's recipe or
reviving some of the oldrecipes that might be household
favorites from the past, butnot too sure if they meet the
same modern canning safetystandards. What do you think
about that? Is there a way tokind of update some of these
things, or would you just say,shy away, just go to some of
(29:53):
those trusted sources right nowfor canning?
Speaker 5 (29:57):
We do not suggest that [updating recipes] and it
may be bad news for some. And Ithink it's, as we train people,
it's probably the biggest boneof contention. "Oh , well ,
that's not how I did it with mygrandma" , or "I've done it
this way and I've never gotsick." So I think, how do we
honor your grandmother or otherpeople? And I think it's just
really through intention. Theintention was there to recreate
(30:22):
safe products, good productsduring harvest. You know, I
know with my children, asMartha mentioned, there's a lot
of pride involved. We, youknow, we can peaches, that's
their second favorite thing toeat, and you know, it's a lot
of work, and we're followingthe recipe and it's hot, and
there's wasps and there's, youknow, it's just, it's a lot.
(30:43):
But they have finally kind ofcome around to realize the
importance of it, the payoff,the sense of pride. So if we
can take the intention and thewisdom and pass that on to our
offspring and to people thatwant to know, I think that the
same passion and intention thatour grandmothers had that can
(31:05):
live on through the nextgeneration. And we don't really
need to worry so much aboutusing grandma's particular
recipe. Because as a chef, youknow what I mean, recipes are
recreated all the time, but italways comes back down to good
fundamentals. So if we focus onthe safe canning practices as a
fundamental springboard, we cancreate good, safe products and
(31:28):
memories and knowledge foryears to come.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
There is a big difference. So I'm with Connor
in honoring and keeping thoserecipes as like mementos from
your family, but work with themore modern recipes.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Sometimes traditions are meant to acknowledge and
adapt, right? And I think we'vedone that with a lot of
different things in our ownfamilies as we've adapted to
new ways of just being safer,really, right?
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
I know you've mentioned a couple already in
terms of where people can gofor some of these resources,
but is there one or two placesthat you'd recommend as the
first places to go to learnmore about food preservation
and some of the techniques thatCanadians can actually use?
Speaker 4 (32:17):
Oh , well the number one I would say is the National
Center for Home FoodPreservation in the US. They're
all methods and recipes thatare informed by science and are
modern and up to date . Andthey're changing them all the
time. They're also veryflexible. For example, they'll
have a vegetable soup recipeyou can do pressure canning
(32:41):
with, but they give you lots ofvariations on the theme. So
it's a great site. I would saythe Bernardin book and website
are both very good. Ball isgreat. And Canadian Living, I
love their preserving cookbook,it's excellent. Test Kitchens
of America is great , but wedon't have it as much, but they
(33:03):
have some really innovativeapproaches to some jam making .
I don't know, what else? Connor, what do you think?
Speaker 5 (33:11):
Well , I would suggest for people a book ,
there's the book, so Easy toPreserve, which I am slowly
learning, is sort of like thebible of food preservation,
which we were introduced tothrough Cornell. And a lot of
times when I'm teaching, or I'mdoing an upcoming class this
weekend , I find myselfreferring to the recipes in
(33:34):
that book just because they'reall in one spot. But I will
echo what Martha says,generally, when I'm looking for
anything, I would Google"kimchi cooperative extension",
and it'll come up with oneuniversity. The other thing is
there's a website, HealthyCanning is also a very good
resource for lots ofdifferent... anything you want
to do deep dives, go to HealthyCanning. It covers everything.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
Just for Googling, like what we're saying is don't
just Google recipes, you know,just don't take anybody's,
right ? But if you do anadvanced Google search and then
you say whatever you'reinterested in, I'm interested
in kimchi making . And then forthe domain name you put "edu",
you will end up with gettingall the university
(34:25):
science-based methods forkimchi or whatever else that
you're looking at. So keep withthe science, there are lots and
lots and lots of resources outthere, but we've given you
some.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
It's a good start for people. And, and I think
this has been a great podcastjust to kind of go through some
of the specifics and thescience around it. It's always
great to understand a littlebit more of the science around
food too, and, and have twogreat experts talking about it.
So with that, I want to saythank you very much Martha and
Connor for being a part of ourpodcast.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
Excellent. Thanks very much , Clint.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
I want to thank you for taking the time to listen
to our Ask a Farmer podcast. Weat Canadian Food Focus value
the input from our listenersand ask that you share the
podcast with your friends andfamily. Remember, this is a
two-way street, so we seek yourinput for future segments that
are of interest to you aboutfood and farming. To do this,
(35:32):
please click on the 'Ask Us'icon at the top of our website,
canadianfoodfocus .org . Whileyou're there, feel free to
follow our numerous socialmedia links and sign up for our
newsletter. This segment wasproduced and edited by Angela
Larson, research and writing byDorothy Long and Penny Eaton,
music by Andy Elson . I am yourhost Clinton Monchuk, and from
(35:58):
all of us at Canadian FoodFocus, we wish you good health
and great eats.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
From Canadian Food Focus. This is Ask a Farmer.
I'm your host Clinton Monchuk,a Saskatchewan farmer. In this
podcast, we talk to foodexperts to answer your
questions about your food.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Welcome to the podcast, everyone. Today we're
going to be talking a littlebit about preserving food. Now,
we've realized just in recentyears the cost of food has kind
of changed our desire to eathealthier. Canning food is a
topic of interest now amongstCanadians. So people want to
understand more about this.
(00:51):
We're going to be exploringthis topic more in depth, and
as I mentioned, I am definitelynot in the know on this
subject. We have some expertswith us today. So with this
episode, we're going to haveConnor Flynn and Martha Rogers
who are both certified MasterFood preservers, help us
develop some of this knowledge,the skills and the confidence
(01:13):
around how to safely preservefood. So how are we doing
Connor and Martha?
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Well, we're just great and we're so excited to
be here today, talking aboutour favorite topic, which is
food preservation. And canningis one of the most common
methods of food preservationthat we know about . So we're
very excited. And Connor, whatabout you?
Speaker 5 (01:38):
Yeah, I'm very excited to dive deeper into
this topic and as part of whatI do for my job, teaching
people about it, and my passionfor food and, and preserving
it. And I'm a family man, so aspart of what we do as a family,
we really do a lot of foodpreservation , because it
brings back lots of memoriesfrom my childhood, but to
(02:00):
instill new memories for mychildren and just for the sheer
practicality of preservingthings when it's harvest time
and saving money and preservingvegetables and fruits when
they're in their prime. So,yeah, I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Martha, and maybe we'll start with you. Just give
us a little bit of a backgroundof some of your experience. I
also want to know what involvesbeing a certified master food
preserver. That's a new one forme, so just maybe explain that
a little bit more in some ofyour background. Then we'll hit
Connor up.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
I've always been really interested in food. It's
been a passion of mine forever.
I was a university professoruntil relatively recently in
faculty of health, but I alwaysloved food and loved preserving
food. And then I stumbled uponthe Master Food Preserver
program, which is availableacross the US through many
(02:56):
university cooperativeextension programs. And I
decided to take it , which wasthrough Cornell in New York.
And it's just a three dayintensive program. And then if
you want become certified, youhave to spend about a year
developing a portfolio thatwill demonstrate your
(03:18):
competence in all forms of foodpreservation. And then they,
you know, give you thecertification. And that's where
I met Connor.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
And Connor. Let's talk a little bit about you.
Speaker 5 (03:31):
My love for food started at a young age with my
grandmother , baking pies andmaking pickles and a lot of
fond memories. And I juststumbled into it ironically ,
teaching what I teach today ina high school program,
hospitality and tourism. Ibecame a chef, a cheese maker,
I was in food sales. I'vemarried into a farming family
(03:54):
now, so I help out on theirfarms. So it was all real full
circle for me, understandingthe farming side. And when I
started teaching, we werepreserving food just out of
sheer necessity. We, at theschool I work at, we get food
donated through somethingcalled the London Food
Coalition, which is anorganization that collects
perished food and drops it offto locations that are in need.
(04:18):
And , sadly at our school, wehave a lot of mouths to feed.
So we were getting hundreds ofpounds of tomatoes at a time ,
or fruit that was going off,and we needed a way to utilize
it to feed more students downthe road. We couldn't feed, we
couldn't get rid of it rightaway. So we were essentially
just starting to preserve. Ihad some experience doing this
(04:41):
in kitchens, and I just starteddoing it. And how I really came
in contact with Martha was whenwe had a health inspection here
at the school, and the healthinspector was asking, how are
you guys doing this safely? Ihad already looked into what
was available in this country,in this province, in terms of
training. And the long andshort of it is there wasn't
(05:02):
much available. So I kind ofcalled her bluff and, and just
said, Hey , I'm just really notsure where you want me to get
this training that you'respeaking of to satisfy their
concerns from a food safetyperspective. So during that
time, I had found Martha, Ithink just by Googling. And I
(05:23):
contacted her and she suggestedgoing to Cornell, and that's
sort of how we met. So I thinkthat that sums it up in a
nutshell.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
And we both, I think, share a real passion for
helping develop some kind ofinfrastructure for food
preservation in Canada, whichthere is nothing, absolutely
nothing compared to the US. Andboth Connor and I really love
teaching in many formats, likewhether it's small group
(05:54):
workshops, or whether it's inthe classroom, or whether it's
writing to communicateinformation about food
preservation. Butfundamentally, we would like to
see much more of a strongerinfrastructure in Canada. And
yeah, we have a long way to go.
Speaker 5 (06:14):
Yeah, we're behind the times in comparison to the
US and her and I are reallytrying to change that now.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
So it's interesting because , you know, just in
that conversation about thedifferences between Canada and
the United States, I thinkyou're seeing more people
though up here in Canada aretaking an interest in it. So a
lot of the people who listen tothis podcast are probably
thinking is there anopportunity for me to start
preserving food ? So let's justkind of break down some of
(06:43):
those basics for new beginnersthat might be interested in
getting into the process andjust talk about some of the
food safety and the, thescience behind preserving food
. So I'm going ask you bothright off the start , what are
some of the different ways,we've mentioned a little bit
about canning, but maybe youcould explain that a little bit
more in depth. And some of theother ways and methods that we
(07:05):
preserve foods.
Speaker 4 (07:06):
We all do some form of food preservation because we
refrigerate things or we freezefood, that's food preservation.
But there are many othermethods: fermentation is very
popular these days. It's sohealthy for you. We have
dehydration, so dehydrating ordrying of all kinds of foods.
(07:30):
And then we have canning andvarious types of canning. So
there are many, many types ofmethods of food preservation.
And Connor , I don't know ifyou want to add something to
that.
Speaker 5 (07:44):
There's a lot of misinformation out there. And
understanding the fundamentalsof food preservation, all the
different forms is really thekey. And I have five children,
and right down to my daughterwho's almost three, you know,
like we were making jam. Ijust, I think people, once they
can understand the fundamentalsof the safety, the food safety
(08:05):
part, I think people should notbe so intimidated. And like so
many things in our world, wehave this excess of
information. So it's just goingto the right sources. And, like
most things, we have goodfundamentals. We can apply
these to all the differenttypes. And I find myself--it's
like layers of an onion. I'vedone dehydrating, and then when
(08:29):
I get deeper into it, it justgoes deeper. I mean, there's so
much history and culture in allthese different methods. So , I
know we're going to be focusingon canning today, so I guess
let's continue on that.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
So maybe let's go right into that then. Some of
the different methods ofcanning. And I'm going to try
and pull in some of myexperience with my family in
doing this, which, when I sayquote unquote family, it really
was my mom. What are some ofthose different methods in
terms of canning of fruits and,and vegetables that we could
use? And how does this affectsome of the food safety
(09:05):
[concerns]? What are some of the things to watch out for?
Speaker 5 (09:09):
Like any kind of safe food handling, we need to
focus first on the environmentwe're in, where we're going to
be preserving food-- in thiscase, canning. You know, when
we jump into this topic, wesometimes get ahead a little
bit and focus on, well, whatequipment and what are the
methods and how do we do that?
But we need to start, I think,right at when we walk into the
(09:32):
kitchen, we need to have cleanhands, clean workspace, clean
utensils and and good qualityproduce. This is, I think, the
first place to start. I don'tknow if Martha wants to add to
that.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
No, I totally agree with that. And in our canning
world it's called bacterialload. So you want to make sure
that the bacteria that youknow, naturally occur in your
kitchens and your hands and allof that, that every space is
clean so that you keep the loadto a minimum. But in terms of
canning, the fundamentaldifference, there are several
(10:05):
types of approaches to canning.
And , one approach is for highacid foods, and that includes
fruits. Most fruits--not melonsand not figs--but most fruits
and any vegetable that has beenacidified, such as you would do
(10:28):
with pickles, for example, youadd vinegar. So that makes it
more acidic. Those types offruits and vegetables can be
safely canned using a waterbath canner , or an atmospheric
steam canner. We'll get intomore detail on that. But you
can also can low acid foods,and that would include
vegetables, meats, fish,poultry, and so on. But it
(10:54):
requires a different approachto canning, and that involves
pressure canning. So thetemperature has to be raised to
at least 240 degrees Fahrenheitin order to safely can foods
that are low in acid . Sothat's the basic question, are
my products low acid ? Am Idoing low acid canning, or am I
(11:17):
doing high acid canning? Sothat's the the fundamental
question, I guess, to decidewhat approach to canning you're
going use from there. Then wecan go into methods.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Just a water bath with some of these fruits and
vegetables. Is that what youdo? Just to kind of clean it,
get a good stock and you know,go to town or..?
Speaker 5 (11:40):
I mean, it's pretty simple. We...you're going to
wash the vegetables and remove,depending on what you're using,
you might peel it and then washit. Yeah. And just not, don't
use anything that's not, thatdoesn't look good. And in some
cases, we blanch to lower thebacterial load when we blanch.
It also affects what'shappening inside the jar when
(12:01):
we are water bath canning.
Right? So sometimes when we'rewater bath canning, we can have
something called siphoning.
Siphoning would be where welose some brine and we have too
much of a head space betweenthe top of the lid and the jar
. But so sometimes we blanch tocreate less swelling of
whatever we're canning. And insome cases, the blanching is to
(12:24):
kill the bacterial load thatmight be present on top of the
veg or on the vegetables.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
I've got to plead ignorance here. Can you explain
what blanching is? I am 100%greenhorn on this.
Speaker 5 (12:35):
Yeah. So it'd be, it would be like quickly cooking
vegetables, for example, ifmaybe with your mother you saw
her peeling tomatoes orpeaches. So this would be a
quick dunk into boiling water.
And then generally it's removedand you're either going into an
ice bath or cold water, whichthen stops the cooking. And in
this case, with the tomatoesand peaches, it wilts the skin
(12:56):
and you can peel the skin offvery easily.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Yeah. Here I'm thinking Blanche from Golden
Girls here, and trying to thinkif she made up something
Speaker 4 (13:07):
That's good.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
So Martha, you had actually mentioned a little bit
about the acidity level, right?
So if it's, there's adifference between the two acid
, how do you even know that?
Like, is there somewhere whereyou can check on some of the
sites, or...?
Speaker 4 (13:22):
There is, but I would say that Connor and I
agree, and what we wereinstilled with in our program
was that you need to use arecipe that is from a reputable
source that's developed withina test kitchen over the last 20
years. So things like ,Bernardin's website or book ,
(13:43):
Ball[Mason Jars], Test Kitchens of America, Canadian Living...where the recipes themselves have been actually developed in a test kitchen where they determine the acidity level. Because it's one thing to say, oh, well, I've got strawberry
jam. That's pretty easy to assess. The acidity level strawberries are high in acid, but if you
aredoing something like a relish or a salsa, you have a mixture of vegetables. So the complexity of determining acidity is much greater. And this is why
wewould strongly recommend not just Googling recipes to choose; you need to use a reputable source, because it's not just acidity, but the processing time in a test kitchen is determined using a thermocouple. So they, they put a probe into the jar to assess how long it takes for heat penetration to actually get into the jar. So it's going to be different between a jar of jam or a jar of salsa. So it's really important, number one, to choose a recipe that is modern and from a reputable source or from the National Center for Home Food Preservation, they have a million recipes. But don't Google, and don't just like think you can wing
it. This is not for winging it.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
It leads me to the next question. So obviously
there's been advancements inthe science and the technology
around this through the yearsthat you do actually have these
test kitchens set up to givethe general kind of accepted
practices and the bestpractices for this. Do you feel
that they're constantlyevolving? Like is there always
new things that are coming outwhen it comes to technology and
(15:35):
science on this?
Speaker 5 (15:37):
Yeah. And in terms of evolving, I think for sure ,
like if we look at cheesemaking as a parallel, people
in, in Europe , and maybe inCanada, were dying of listeria
poisoning because at one point,cheese making was an artisan
craft. And until the sciencecaught up, it's now what we see
(15:57):
it today, which is part scienceand part artisan. That's kind
of where we're going with thecanning, except in terms of the
creativity. As a chef, I had areally hard time kind of
setting that down, where Iwanted to throw a little bit of
this or add a little bit ofthat into this salsa or to this
chutney or to this relish. AndI've really become a believer
in that creativity that I wantto put into the jar, I just do
(16:22):
that after. So I just takewhatever the product is that
I'm preserving, and try to justspend that energy and passion
into finding the best of thebest, you know, the best
peaches, the best tomatoes, andthen taking it and preserving
it at its prime. And then whenit comes out of the jar, that's
when I use my creativity again.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
I think Connor and I are agreed . We've done, I
don't know , thousands andthousands of jars of this and
that. And we have committed tousing recipes from reputable
sources, modern, et cetera .
And neither of us have everfelt constrained in any way by
(17:06):
making this type of commitment.
So it's a basic principle ofsafe canning. It's an example
of how things have progressedin terms of the science. Years
ago, it was thought that alljars and lids had to be
sterilized, and it was a bigproduction for everybody to
(17:27):
have to sterilize everythingand then sterilize the can the
lids before you even got to thecanning process. But now,
through all the research, it'sbeen proven that if your
processing time is longer, 10minutes or longer, you don't
have to sterilize the jars. Itmakes things a whole heck of a
lot easier. They have to be hotand warm to receive the hot
(17:51):
jam, but they don't have to besterilized. And just recently,
like within the last, I don'tknow , seven or eight years , a
lot of research has been doneon the lids so that even now ,
change has been made where youdon't have to warm the lids.
Normally, like when, when wewere doing it, you'd have to
(18:13):
warm the lids to soften theadhesive that would create the
vacuum. But now you don't evenhave t o do that. They've
proven through the researchthat the lids will adhere even
a t from room temperature. Soyou don't have to do that. So
all this new information iscoming all the time. So it's
great and exciting to keep ontop of it. Not to mention this
(18:36):
i s a whole lot simpler thanlike, what it was before,
sterilizing everything.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
O kay. Now we've reached the part of the podcast
where we talk about the funfarm fact. Did you know that
here in Canada, and this is nota really fun farm fact, but we
waste 50 million tons of foodevery year. This works out to
(19:04):
roughly about 79 kilograms peryear per household. A nd this
was based on some informationthat we pulled from the
Government of Canada here in2024. Now, this is one of those
things that when I see a statlike this, and I think that we
can probably take some of thisfood and put it to better use,
right? And this is w herepreserving some of these
(19:26):
products that are maybe gettingclose to the end o f life in
say, our fridge or somethinglike that, and making them into
something that we can use lateron. I want to know both of your
thoughts on this in terms ofhow we can reduce our own w
aste i n our households byusing, you know, preserving
practices.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
Well, I know Connor's been on the
dehydration plan. Do you wantto talk about that?
Speaker 5 (19:52):
Yeah, sure. I mean , this one sort of infuriates me
a little bit just because wehave so many hungry mouths in
our world and our country, Andeven at this school, we're in a
place where we can't take ahome-canned item and donate it
to the soup kitchen, or evenfrom a industrial kitchen, they
won't accept that, right? Sohopefully we can change that.
But yeah, at home, just asimple example. I've got my
(20:14):
wife fully trained. She's anunofficial master food
preserver. And she, if we don'tknow what we're going to do
with some produce that's in thefridge and we notice we're
going to be out of town orsomething, she just simply
dehydrates it, you know,mushrooms , tomatoes... And
I'll tell you , fun fact, Ithink you can fit a bushel of
(20:39):
tomatoes in a two-liter jar--Iforget , a two or three liter
jar. So what's interestingabout dehydrating is it takes
so much moisture out and itweighs nothing , that you can
actually pack quite a bit ofproduce into a small container,
and it's very simple torehydrate that. So I am on team
(21:00):
dehydrate. It's so simple andquick to do, where canning, you
really have to commit to a fullday if you're going to be
canning something.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
It's a way of thinking as much as it is
knowledge of how to do it. Soit's just like, to change your
mindset. Yes, change yourmindset. Don't throw out
anything. Well, unless it'sbad, of course.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
, you better get rid of it . Interms of some of the, what I
would say, maybe outdated ,practices that you've heard of
or misconceptions aroundcanning, what are some of the
most common that I think a lotof our listeners have probably
(21:47):
heard that, that you just haveto say No, that's, that's in
fact incorrect.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
One thing is wax. We used to put, make jams and
jellies and put the melted waxon the top. That's a very
common misconception. In fact,they shouldn't even sell it
anymore. The design of the waxwas to keep oxygen away from
the jam or the jelly so that itwould prevent the growth of
(22:12):
mold and bacteria. But itdoesn't really have any
evidence to support that thatis the case over the long term
. Whereas our new lids will beeffective once they've sealed
for 18 months to two years, oreven longer, honestly. So
that's one thing waxing. Andone thing that people don't
(22:34):
think about is the influence ofaltitude on canning. So
altitude, the higher that youare, the lower the boiling
point. So it takes longer forthings to process in a water
bath or a pressure canner. Soit's very important to actually
know your altitude. So where Iam, I live in a valley. I'm at
(22:57):
730 feet, which is low. So allof the recipes that are
developed in test kitchens aredeveloped for altitudes of
between zero and a thousandfeet. Hmm . So if it's over a
thousand feet, then you have toadjust the processing time to
accommodate that. So even if Idrive up the hill to make jam
(23:22):
with my friend up up the hill,I'm already at 1400 or 1600
feet. So we have to, at thatpoint, make the adjustment of
five minutes to our processingtime. Or similarly , if you're
doing pressure canning, theywill tell you how much pressure
that needs to be added to yourprocessing time. So if you're
(23:43):
using really good qualityrecipes, those recipes will
tell you, you need to adjustthe processing time by five
minutes, add five minutes or 10minutes, or you need to add
more pressure in pounds to yourpressure canning . So that's
one thing. And my third thing ,when Connor was talking about
(24:04):
tomatoes, I was doing aworkshop and somebody said,
well, my family likes to addbaking soda to the tomato sauce
when they're canning it,because it, it makes the
tomatoes less acidic. Oh boy.
Really the wrong, wrong thing.
Tomatoes hover around 6.7 , 6.8, there's a range. Now because
(24:30):
of hybridization, some tomatoeshave been designed to be less
acidic. But adding baking soda,which is alkaline to tomatoes,
is a no-no.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
So what kind of disaster would happen from
putting baking soda to can atomato? Because you're changing
the pH level.
Speaker 4 (24:49):
Exactly. Changing the pH level puts you at risk
of botulism. That is the risk.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Ah, that's the risk, okay.
Speaker 4 (25:01):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
Gotcha.
Speaker 4 (25:02):
So adding something alkaline like baking soda is
really, really in the wrongdirection and is extremely
unsafe because it really putsyou at risk of botulism.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
That's a really good point to make sure all our
listeners understand. And theother point around altitude, I
live in the prairies, okay? Soyou don't really think of high
altitudes, but where we farm,it's right around 1600 feet
above sea level . Wow. So it ,you would, you would have to
actually make thoseadjustments, right ?
Speaker 4 (25:32):
Yes , that's right.
Speaker 3 (25:33):
You don't think of it, but on this side of the
Rockies, yeah, it actually isfairly elevated. So that's a
really good point for us torealize too. One of the things
is , as somebody that's reallynew to this game and trying to
learn a little bit more, whatwould you recommend Connor , as
if you're a beginner in termsof canning, what would be that
(25:53):
first thing that you shouldmake at home that that kind of
gives you, that get up and goto say, okay, I can do this, I
can do this a little bit morewith something else.
Speaker 5 (26:02):
I don't know if I'd start with pickles. There's
some complexities there , abouthow do you get a pickle crisp
and all these things. Buthonestly, one of my favorite
things, and my kids will eat ajar at a time, is pickled
asparagus. I just don't find itvery difficult. You can cut the
asparagus right to size. It'seasy to get into the jar
because of the shape of theasparagus. It's just straight ,
(26:24):
straight up. So it's justsomething that's pretty easy.
And I think also, it's notsomething that a lot of people
have thought about eating, buthonestly , when I go into my
pantry or my cold cellar ,that's my number one favorite
thing to eat pickled isasparagus. Yeah. And it's a
nice one that you can get outof the way in the canning
(26:46):
season quite early, because ifyou become a serious canner in
the summertime, it's very busy.
And it's sort of like, no , thestrawberries are ready this
week, this week, it has tohappen. With asparagus, it's
earlier in the season, at leastin this province. And you can
kind of get that under yourbelt and there's no pressure
(27:07):
that, you know, the next weekyou have to do peaches or
pickles, you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (27:12):
You know, Martha, you touched on it a little bit
around botulism. What othermethods other than don't put
baking soda in our canning,especially with tomatoes. But
what other kind of methods canwe ensure in our kitchens that
we're doing the properprecautions to prevent botulism
(27:33):
or, or even other foodborneillnesses?
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Well, I would say the number one thing is to
follow a good quality recipe,modern and from a reputable
source. With botulism, theincidence is actually very
small across the country, butif it does happen, it's very,
very severe. And I mean, it canlead to deaths and so on. As
(28:00):
everybody knows, botulism tendsto relate to like, low acid
foods. So vegetables orinappropriately canned meats
and fish and poultry and soforth. So that's why it's very,
very important to actuallyfollow the recipes. But if you
do that and you understand thetheory, the science that, you
(28:25):
know, if we're working withvegetables or meat or fish or
poultry, it has to be donecorrectly using a pressure
canner. The pressure cannerwill raise the temperature
through pressure to 240degrees, which will kill the
heat-resistant spores ofbotulism because
they're...They're really kindof a nifty bacterium because
(28:48):
they can create these specialspores around themselves when
they're exposed to heat, andthat protects them against the
heat of, let's say a water bathcanner. That's why you have to
go to a higher pressure cannersituation. So it really
basically comes down tofollowing up a proper recipe
(29:08):
and method. And it's good.
Like, we can all do this, andit's so rewarding to actually,
you know, go in your garden orgo to the local market and pick
up whatever is growing and dosomething with it. It's so
satisfying.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah . So, this kind of gets to the next one. And
this question was, you know,using grandma's recipe or
reviving some of the oldrecipes that might be household
favorites from the past, butnot too sure if they meet the
same modern canning safetystandards. What do you think
about that? Is there a way tokind of update some of these
things, or would you just say,shy away, just go to some of
(29:53):
those trusted sources right nowfor canning?
Speaker 5 (29:57):
We do not suggest that [updating recipes] and it
may be bad news for some. And Ithink it's, as we train people,
it's probably the biggest boneof contention. "Oh , well ,
that's not how I did it with mygrandma" , or "I've done it
this way and I've never gotsick." So I think, how do we
honor your grandmother or otherpeople? And I think it's just
really through intention. Theintention was there to recreate
(30:22):
safe products, good productsduring harvest. You know, I
know with my children, asMartha mentioned, there's a lot
of pride involved. We, youknow, we can peaches, that's
their second favorite thing toeat, and you know, it's a lot
of work, and we're followingthe recipe and it's hot, and
there's wasps and there's, youknow, it's just, it's a lot.
(30:43):
But they have finally kind ofcome around to realize the
importance of it, the payoff,the sense of pride. So if we
can take the intention and thewisdom and pass that on to our
offspring and to people thatwant to know, I think that the
same passion and intention thatour grandmothers had that can
(31:05):
live on through the nextgeneration. And we don't really
need to worry so much aboutusing grandma's particular
recipe. Because as a chef, youknow what I mean, recipes are
recreated all the time, but italways comes back down to good
fundamentals. So if we focus onthe safe canning practices as a
fundamental springboard, we cancreate good, safe products and
(31:28):
memories and knowledge foryears to come.
Speaker 4 (31:32):
There is a big difference. So I'm with Connor
in honoring and keeping thoserecipes as like mementos from
your family, but work with themore modern recipes.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Sometimes traditions are meant to acknowledge and
adapt, right? And I think we'vedone that with a lot of
different things in our ownfamilies as we've adapted to
new ways of just being safer,really, right?
Speaker 4 (31:59):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
I know you've mentioned a couple already in
terms of where people can gofor some of these resources,
but is there one or two placesthat you'd recommend as the
first places to go to learnmore about food preservation
and some of the techniques thatCanadians can actually use?
Speaker 4 (32:17):
Oh , well the number one I would say is the National
Center for Home FoodPreservation in the US. They're
all methods and recipes thatare informed by science and are
modern and up to date . Andthey're changing them all the
time. They're also veryflexible. For example, they'll
have a vegetable soup recipeyou can do pressure canning
(32:41):
with, but they give you lots ofvariations on the theme. So
it's a great site. I would saythe Bernardin book and website
are both very good. Ball isgreat. And Canadian Living, I
love their preserving cookbook,it's excellent. Test Kitchens
of America is great , but wedon't have it as much, but they
(33:03):
have some really innovativeapproaches to some jam making .
I don't know, what else? Connor, what do you think?
Speaker 5 (33:11):
Well , I would suggest for people a book ,
there's the book, so Easy toPreserve, which I am slowly
learning, is sort of like thebible of food preservation,
which we were introduced tothrough Cornell. And a lot of
times when I'm teaching, or I'mdoing an upcoming class this
weekend , I find myselfreferring to the recipes in
(33:34):
that book just because they'reall in one spot. But I will
echo what Martha says,generally, when I'm looking for
anything, I would Google"kimchi cooperative extension",
and it'll come up with oneuniversity. The other thing is
there's a website, HealthyCanning is also a very good
resource for lots ofdifferent... anything you want
to do deep dives, go to HealthyCanning. It covers everything.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
Just for Googling, like what we're saying is don't
just Google recipes, you know,just don't take anybody's,
right ? But if you do anadvanced Google search and then
you say whatever you'reinterested in, I'm interested
in kimchi making . And then forthe domain name you put "edu",
you will end up with gettingall the university
(34:25):
science-based methods forkimchi or whatever else that
you're looking at. So keep withthe science, there are lots and
lots and lots of resources outthere, but we've given you
some.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
It's a good start for people. And, and I think
this has been a great podcastjust to kind of go through some
of the specifics and thescience around it. It's always
great to understand a littlebit more of the science around
food too, and, and have twogreat experts talking about it.
So with that, I want to saythank you very much Martha and
Connor for being a part of ourpodcast.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
Excellent. Thanks very much , Clint.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
I want to thank you for taking the time to listen
to our Ask a Farmer podcast. Weat Canadian Food Focus value
the input from our listenersand ask that you share the
podcast with your friends andfamily. Remember, this is a
two-way street, so we seek yourinput for future segments that
are of interest to you aboutfood and farming. To do this,
(35:32):
please click on the 'Ask Us'icon at the top of our website,
canadianfoodfocus .org . Whileyou're there, feel free to
follow our numerous socialmedia links and sign up for our
newsletter. This segment wasproduced and edited by Angela
Larson, research and writing byDorothy Long and Penny Eaton,
music by Andy Elson . I am yourhost Clinton Monchuk, and from
(35:58):
all of us at Canadian FoodFocus, we wish you good health
and great eats.
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