July 28, 2025 • 45 mins
P.S. Whenever you’re ready, here are four ways I can help you attract more high-value clients—without the hustle:
📚 Start with my free book
Join 3,000+ service providers and agency owners who’ve downloaded Client Magnet: 97 Proven Strategies and Tactics to Attract New Business and Scale Your Creative Agency Revenue.
(It’s written for agencies, but packed with advice any service provider can use.)
👉 Grab it free: https://kaffeen.co/book
🚀 Build your lead system with LinkedIn Lead Liftoff
A done-for-you lead generation system that brings in high-quality leads from LinkedIn—no content, cold calls, or awkward DMs required.
We’ll build it, set it up, and show you how to run it in under 30 minutes a day.
👉 Learn more: https://kaffeen.co/llo
🎧 Tune into the podcast
Get honest advice, expert interviews, and actionable tips to grow your service business with more clarity and less noise.
👉 Follow here: https://open.spotify.com/show/7upjztW0B3hQi2YlHTVdNn
💬 Work with me 1:1
I work with a handful of clients each quarter to increase visibility, build authority, and land consistent £30k+ opportunities—with a system that runs on autopilot.
👉 Book a consult: ...
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hi there.
This is a bit of a differentpodcast episode because I was
interviewed by my, uh, one of mybusiness buddies, Dr.
Jay Watkins, who used to be acolleague in a group coaching
program.
We were both in and has becomekind of a business friend, and
we worked together from time totime and just.
Shoot the breeze and generallyhelp each other out with bits
and bobs.
And she invited me to go on herpodcast and speak about, uh, my
(00:25):
experience and how my businessgot to this point.
And I just thought that it wouldbe a really useful, um, or
interesting rather thing to, foryou guys to listen to as well.
So I'm sharing here on, uh, theCaffeine podcast and I hope you
enjoy it.
Speak to you next time.
Bye.
Dr. Jo Watkins (00:42):
Welcome to the podcast, Charlotte.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (00:45):
Thank you.
And I have to say, I'm reallyappreciating your backdrop for
the people who are listening onaudio and don't know.
Jo is currently on a desertisland, according to Zoom, and
that really resonates with thefact I just gave you.
So, lovely to be here.
I
Dr. Jo Watkins (00:56):
love it.
I know, I'm on my desert islandthat I kind of, every time I
switch on Zoom, I kind of wishthat I lived there, sort of.
But I was just saying, it is abit windy on my island, isn't
it?
It is.
I can see why you're wearing ajumper.
Yeah, there's a lot of movementand, um, I'd love to say that
Swansea Bay looks a little bitlike that today, but it doesn't.
Before we get into the nittygritty, the citizenship of two,
where, where are those twocountries?
(01:17):
Uh, Britain and Italy.
Oh, nice.
And the five?
The Italians made me work reallyhard to get that citizenship.
It took me 14 years, but I wonin the end.
Amazing.
And what about the five thatyou've lived in?
Ooh, okay.
Um, France, Italy, Cambodia,South Korea, and I'm going to
(01:39):
include the UK as well.
Fabulous.
And before we went live, we werejust talking about, um, talking
about how, how we go aboutworking and traveling, which is
something we can, we can touchon a little bit into in the sort
of what we're going to talkabout.
So it is brilliant to have youhere.
Um, I have had the absolutehonor and pleasure of working
with you, um, recently quite alot.
(02:02):
So let's just go back a littlebit.
As you know, I'm a doctor.
You're in this world that usdoctors look at and say, what
does that actually mean?
What does she actually do?
I don't understand because we'vebeen programmed to only
understand one thing.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe kind of people you help,
what you do, and maybe a littlebit about how we ended up
(02:23):
working together.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, is it okay if I just goback a bit, just to give some
context?
Absolutely.
So just, um, before we hitrecord, Jo was telling me that,
um, she wasn't aware of what abrand was until relatively
recently.
And I think, um, I think this isreally key to the story because
I think we're often, we'rereally, really aware of what we
(02:44):
know and the track that we'resticking on and we're not always
aware of all the otheropportunities and the ways of
doing things in the world.
So I.
I have been obsessed with brandfor as long as I can remember.
I have known that I've wanted towork around the world of brand,
uh, but I was shit at art.
Sorry.
Can I swear?
Okay.
Fine.
Um, I was just, yeah, really badat art at school.
(03:07):
And I was like, well, that meansI can't be a creative person.
I, you know, at school and theyjust like put you into these,
they just put labels like you'renot creative.
You're the humanities person.
You're not a science person.
You'll never be a doctor.
It was like, You know, you can'tdo all three sciences at GCSE.
So those opportunities are offthe table for you, which is
something I've thought about alot when we've been working
(03:28):
together and the kind of themindset of who you, who you work
with.
Um, so with that in mind, uh, Iwent to university to do
marketing with a kind ofcommunication and fashion slant
at Leeds Uni.
And, and then I, um, I've workedwith.
Creative agencies for the mostpart during my time in, in
(03:49):
companies as an employee, um, askind of, um, one of the only non
fee earning people within thebusiness, which is a really
weird role to be in, in aservice provider.
So I have worked in raising theprofile and winning new business
for those agencies, um, that'sbeen the vast majority of my
(04:10):
time, uh, in industry.
And, um, There was a bit of acurve ball that happened.
I left my last agency that Iworked at full time and, uh,
where I was head of marketing anew business and across three
different continents.
Um, and we, I, I had anopportunity to go work with a
tech startup, a very well fundedtech startup in Silicon
(04:33):
roundabout.
Um, it was the heyday of, um, Ofthat world.
And there was so much moneygoing into it because of EIS
funding, et cetera.
And, uh, I came into thiscompany who really, they, they
had no marketing functionwhatsoever.
So it was completely blankslate.
And this was so weird for mebecause I'd come from working in
like really regimented kind ofenvironment.
(04:54):
You know, agencies are veryprecise.
They're like perfection.
Everything has to be done acertain way to tech startups,
which, you know, the mantra ofthe industry is, you Move fast
and break things.
So I had this incredibleopportunity to experiment a lot
more.
And over the period of about sixmonths, I realized I'd learned
more in that six months period,um, than I had in kind of like
(05:14):
the preceding 10 years.
And if I could take myexperience in, uh, with
technology automation that Ideveloped during that tech
startup, uh, marketing, um,role, and then bring it back to
the agencies that I really lovedand missed working with,
frankly, then it would.
We have the potential to kind ofreally accelerate what they were
(05:35):
capable of doing, the reach thatthey had, the new business
opportunities that would comein.
So I basically found like, it'slike the little bit, I don't
know what it's called in theVenn diagram, like that plus
that equals superpower.
So then I started my ownconsultancy, caffeine.
Um, predominantly working withcreative agencies from kind of
one person through to 250 peoplein multiple countries, helping
(05:57):
to do exactly that.
We raise their profile, help todraw new business into them
rather than go and cold call ordo ads or like just hammer
people over the head with amessage when they don't want to
hear it and really position themas an authority so that clients
come to them, um, and stay andthey're visible in front of
those prospective clients aswell.
(06:18):
Um, And it was working reallywell, you know, I've had
caffeine for, I think, 10 yearsnow, 10 years next year, um.
And I, some door shutting.
I was just checking you weren'tdisappearing off into the sea.
I know I look like I was, butI've just shut the door.
I don't, the family, despite theinstructions, I'm filming a
(06:41):
podcast still.
They never do, do they?
Carry on, carry on.
Um, and.
And so I knew it was goingreally well.
And over time I started gettingmore and more referrals and I
realized that it didn't justappeal to creative agencies,
even though that was mystronghold.
It really pretty much what I wasteaching them to do and what was
(07:02):
implementing for them, um, worksfor pretty much any service
provider.
Um, the, we do a variety ofthings, but kind of the mainstay
involves LinkedIn.
And basically if your client'son LinkedIn, it works for you.
That, that is kind of the, thelong and short of it.
Um, yeah, so I, not that there'sany secret sauce, but I don't
(07:22):
want to make it overcomplicated.
So, um, I'll kind of leave it atthat and you ask me any more
questions to kind of probe outwhat, what it is, so to speak.
Amazing.
So, I mean, what a great story.
And I think a really goodexample of, like you say,
combining everything.
Combine, you know, looking atwhat you love, what you're good
at, what.
What the world needs and gettingout there and actually providing
it in your own, in your ownagency, taking everything that
(07:45):
you've learned along the way.
And that, that story is, issomething that you hear about
quite often in this sort ofcorporate marketing setting, but
it's certainly not something weas medics do.
We do the opposite.
We just go down this very linearpath of, you know, escalating
through the Um, through thegrades until we get to a point
where we then stay in that jobfor the rest of our lives.
(08:07):
And yeah, I remember somebody,somebody who I, who has helped
me from early days finding thatquite obscure because he's like,
you know, in the, in, when youget to that point in business,
you at least move company everyfour or five years, every four
or five years, keep it alive.
Whereas we're just in this, thiseither GP or consultant position
for a long, long time.
(08:27):
So Thank you for telling thatbecause I think it puts this in
context and we, we talked a bitabout brand right at the
beginning and I told you thestory of when I first started
my, with my granola company 15years ago, I knew that I wanted
to make this thing and I knewwhat it was and I knew what I
wanted to be called.
And somebody said, well, you canget a grant for branding.
(08:50):
I was like, what, what'sbranding?
And they were like, well, youknow, to like, make it look nice
on the label.
I was like, oh, right.
I thought I just did that on,you know, some, I don't, I don't
know.
I don't know how I thought thathappened.
And a branding consultant, Lucy,um, Ali Hopper, who's still
around.
She's amazing.
She came around to the kitchentable.
And she was asking me whatbrands I liked.
And I was like, I don't reallyeven know what a brand is.
(09:11):
And she was like, right.
Okay.
We've got to start basic, go tothe cupboard, get your beans.
Um, and she was brilliant.
So we, we don't know this stuff.
And I think sometimes we enterthis world of business.
We suddenly feel like literallya fish out of water.
So learning from people like youis really, really important.
And, but, you know, branding isessentially, you know, the look
(09:32):
and the feel of your business,isn't it?
And why somebody is going tocome to you over somebody else.
Um, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And then the LinkedIn thing I'dlike to talk about a bit more.
So, so in terms of the brandingand how we market ourselves, can
you just tell us a little bitabout that?
As, as little people that are,you know, people with a lot of
knowledge that are going outthere and feeling like little
(09:55):
fish in a big pond.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I predominantly, it'sinteresting.
You mentioned the two referencepoints behind, weren't they?
Well, I spent the majority ofmy, um, in agency career.
Um, so when I was working withinbigger agencies, they were
predominantly brand andpackaging design companies
working with FMCG brands.
Now that is a whole lot ofwords, but basically it means
(10:18):
things you find in the fridge,in the cupboard, things you find
in the supermarket.
There is such a phenomenalamount of money.
And thought and psychology and Imean, it's mind blowing how
much, uh, how much energy is putinto what the package looks like
on the shelf.
(10:38):
Um, uh, honestly I could spend,I could spend three episodes
talking about that.
It's fascinating to me.
But what I do predominantly nowis, um, is not on behalf of
brands that are, uh, consumerfacing.
It's working with, so thingsthat lay people by in their
spare time.
Um, it's working with serviceproviders and businesses to
(10:59):
shape their personal brand,their company brand through, um,
not necessarily what it lookslike.
We're not a, well, in fact, notat all.
We are not a, we're not reallyan agency.
Um, more consultants, to behonest, we Um, very much have a
teacher man to fish approach,um, help you get things set up.
(11:19):
And so you can continue tomanage them internally, um,
rather than do it for you,because a lot of small to medium
sized businesses don't, forvarious reasons, either
financial or, or controlreasons, don't want to be
working with an externalprovider in the longterm.
And, and I certainly felt thatway when I was in agency, um,
And so what was I going to say?
(11:40):
So what we do, how we shape thatbrand from, um, a, uh, a
business perspective and justthinking about what would be
most useful to your audience.
I think, so it's reallyinteresting.
I now serve.
Um, a lot of branding andmarketing agencies.
Um, I've mentioned they're notthe only people that I serve,
(12:03):
but it's fascinating how theycan do this all day long for
their clients and they can'tnecessarily do it for
themselves.
And I, I just want to say that'suniversal.
Okay.
If that feels, if that feelsfamiliar, like it's just.
True of parenting.
Parenting.
It's like parenting.
It's like parenting.
You can Oh yeah.
Parent other people's childrenall the time.
Yeah.
(12:23):
And like for example, most of myfamily works for the NHSI grew
up in my mom's house.
She didn't own a thermometer andsent me to school for two weeks
with gular fever'cause sherefused to believe I was sick.
So it's like, you know whatyou're talking about?
No, but they the, the thingsthat we practice at work don't
necessarily apply, do they?
When we're, we're looking at ourown own world.
(12:43):
So that's, that's.
the point that I kind of want tomake with that.
So often I'm taking them back tobasics and thinking about,
because they are often, um,well, sorry, I'll bring it back
to the lens of, of your, um, ofyour world, Joe, and the people
that you work with.
So, Well, the exercise that wemake anybody that we work with
do right at the very start ofworking together is, um, define
(13:07):
who they is their targetaudience.
And I hate the classic customerprofile, like avatar.
I hate going through that.
I expect it's like, to me, it'ssuch a waste of time drawing a
picture of what that person'sface is, looks like, or, but we
do it through, um, uh, LinkedIn,which really focuses the mind.
Cause that's ultimately whatwe're going to be using in the
(13:28):
longterm.
So we use a tool called salesnavigator.
It's a paid, um, Uh, tool withinLinkedIn.
Um, that is the main expensewhen, in terms of what we
recommend clients to do.
And it comes to, I think around800 pounds a year at the moment,
best money I spend in mybusiness.
Um, well, I'm sure we'll getonto that later on, but, um, we
use the filters within salesnavigator to, to really define
(13:52):
down who our target audience is.
Um, on behalf of the client.
And then once we've defined thatdown, and trust me that's not a
scary process, it's actuallyreally enjoyable if you like
investigating things.
It's a bit, it's like theSherlock Holmes kind of part of
the job and I really love it.
I'm actually in a spiral ofdoing that right now.
Um, Joe, we talked before we hitrecord about not being able to
(14:14):
meet on another app, it'sbecause I'm in Sherlock Holmes
mode and I've got 20, 30 tabsopen on LinkedIn because I'm
doing this for a client rightnow, um, just ahead of our call.
And once we've kind of definedwho the audience is, then we
speak to them.
Um, so we do customer listeningand that basically is, um,
(14:39):
speaking with a list ofquestions to people who've
either worked with you or arerespectively would, would work
with you in the future.
You know, they're your kind oftarget, um, uh, person.
And we asked them a series ofquestions, which is designed to
really get under the skin ofwhat their hopes, dreams, fears,
pain points, challenges are,and, and more.
(15:00):
Um, We pull all of that togetherand then we, um, analyze it and
pull out key themes.
And that is really what's at theheart of creating a, um, a
client led brand.
And by that I don't mean you'rejust kind of like following
behind them like a little sheep.
(15:20):
It's, it's making sure that yourbrand is consistently speaking
to the challenges, hopes, fears,that your, um, your perspective
Uh, client has, otherwise it'sjust going to fall on deaf ears.
And if you do that, people thinkthat you're psychic.
They think that you, um,understand them, uh, to their
core.
(15:40):
They're like, how do you knowthis stuff?
That's exactly me.
And it's, it's really funny.
It's cause they've just told youand then you're repeating it
back to them.
Um, so that is kind of thefoundations of how we help to
develop what your brandpersonality would be like in
terms of your marketing and yourcontent as a service provider.
Brilliant.
And I think this, you know, I,everything you're saying, I'm,
(16:02):
I'm, I'm kind of seeing theimprint on the stuff that I talk
about within my program.
And I, we, you know, we, Isuggest people get on calls, get
on as many calls as they canwith their, with their ideal
clients or the type of peoplethat they think they want to
work with.
It's only when you get in frontof those people and ask those
people the right questions thatyou really understand, um, what
(16:23):
their problems are and howthey're feeling, because
otherwise you're creating quiteoften.
In, in my experience for sure,you're creating a solution to a
problem that you havepotentially, but you haven't
really gone out there andinterviewed anyone else.
So it's almost like you've got acase study of one, which is
generally, you know, quite oftena problem that you've come
(16:44):
across yourself and you've goneout there and created what you
think is the, is the solution tothe problem without doing the
interview.
So getting in front of people,and that's what you're doing on
a much bigger scale by doingthis.
Yeah.
Yeah, and do you mind if I justsay a few more points about that
because there are a few tipsthat I think will be helpful.
So, um, First of all, you wouldnot believe how many people
think that they can skip this sestep and it's not relevant to
(17:06):
them.
It is the biggest mistake you'relikely to make if you don't get
this foundation level thingdone.
And I know it's a bit scary, um,especially, and I have this
complete fear around speaking tomy own clients because I'm
scared.
What, what if I didn't performor what, you know, just classic.
Self esteem.
So I get an independent personto do this for the most part.
(17:29):
I'm massively over deliveringand it's not actually a concern,
but you know, I'm not saying I'mimmune to it is, is what I want
to kind of communicate that.
But do not skip it.
Just like feel the fear and doit anyway, or get somebody else
to do it for you or speak topeople you haven't actually
worked with, but all yourprospective audience, because
then you don't have to worryabout what they say about the
experience of working with you.
Um, A couple of points that Ireally recommend, uh, to kind of
(17:52):
encourage you to do this.
Well, I mean, we give ourclients a list of questions to
ask.
Often the conversation becomesmore organic, but that you've
got questions to kind of comeback to, to make sure that
you're kind of covering off thepoints that you need.
And I really recommend going inwith structure and doing these
calls, not necessarily inperson, But on zoom, like we're
speaking right now, I have thisincredible tool plugged in.
(18:15):
Um, it's from free it's calledfathom.
I don't know if you've heard ofit, but it's, um, it basically
sits in the room with you and,uh, records, uh, what you're
talking about, creates atranscript.
Afterwards.
You also have the option to kindof click bookmarks.
If a point came up that youreally want to remember, but
basically you can focus ontalking, not note making, and
that's really crucial because ifyou're This is the time to be
(18:36):
curious and to really kind ofprobe.
You don't want to be thinkingabout formulating your next
question and not reallylistening to the answer because
probably there's kind of kernelswithin.
It's the classic psychologistapproach of, and what, and what
else?
And what else, you know, likeyou keep asking that you get to
the really, really juicy stuff.
So you want to be able to focusso you can ask the what else at
the right points.
And, um, Also, I recommend likemost of the people that I work
(19:00):
with carry around like aMoleskine notebook to all their
meetings.
I don't know if you've probablygot one on the table.
You can relate.
I just recommend on the veryback page, like jot down
whenever a client, you know,outside of a customer listening
environment, um, jot down whensomebody complains about
something, you know, not justyour kids.
But somebody you'd like to workwith, or they talk about what
(19:21):
they'd hope to do, or a trendthat they're concerned they're
not focusing on, or justanything.
And that is a really goodresource when you're thinking
about content creation, be itpodcast episodes, lead magnet.
Website content, uh, socialmedia posts, just that, that
start with that.
Um, and then the final thing isonce you've got all of that and
(19:44):
you come into analyze it, andyou're looking at this huge
document of transcripts, this iswhere it's really helpful to use
something like chat GPT, again,from free put in, uh, All of the
gumph, like from all, all thetranscripts from the phone
calls, all the notes you've gotat the back of your moleskin,
um, and ask it to analyze it andkind of group it, um, so that
you've got kind of key themescoming through, and then you've
(20:06):
basically got the foundation ofwhat you should be saying to
your audience.
Brilliant.
Absolutely brilliant.
Those are, those are fantastic,fantastic take homes, guys.
And I'm going to link, you know,link those things that you
talked about, fathom, I think,and the use of chat GPT.
Again, most medics come out in avisible rash when I mentioned
(20:27):
because that's like, what's thatall about?
That's going to take over theworld.
And it's in terms of like, Youknow, getting through those idea
blocks, generating content fromwhat you've got already,
signposting you, um, breakingthings down for you.
I mean, it's just, it's justunbelievable, but I just, I want
to come back to a couple ofthings that you have mentioned.
(20:49):
And I, and I, and I love whatyou've just said.
I think it's really, reallyhelpful.
I want to come back to thisteach a man to fish concept you,
that you talked about and.
Again, when we go in, when westep into this entrepreneurial
world as doctors, we oftenabsorb a huge amount of
information from huge numbers ofexperts.
Generally, lots of very glossypeople telling us how easy it is
(21:11):
to make money while we sleep.
Um, how, you know, you can getto 10 K months within four
months and then leave yourcorporate job and how life is so
much better and glossier on theother side.
And I find a lot of people comein.
With, um, sometimes a failure ofa complete feeling of failure
because they've not achievedthat in a very short length of
(21:35):
time.
Um, and I think some of this isput down to, you know, I've got
to be able to outsourceeverything or I've got to learn
to do everything.
And I've had both of thoseextremes within my life.
Business career one, you know,initially I did everything
myself with the granola.
I didn't outsource anything.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing.
The whole concept was alien tome through to the how people
(21:58):
where we outsourced a lot andgrew a team very quickly.
And that has its differentchallenges.
So how important is it for us todo the things in business for us
to understand these, thesethings rather than just letting
go of everything, because surelythere's a There's something here
about longevity, isn't there?
Like, it's about podcasting, forexample, and getting your kids
(22:20):
to help.
And, you know, can you speak alittle bit about doing it all
yourself versus outsourcing?
Yeah, I wrote a lot of pointsdown as you're talking.
It made, I was thinking abouthow my company has developed
itself, because I really relateto what you're talking about.
10K months, six figure business,um, reading Denise Duffield
(22:41):
Thomas books, like, Looking atMarie Forleo, thinking course
building is the solution.
Like, I, I don't know if any ofthese words I'm saying will
resonate with your audience, butI know certainly if you're in
the online business world, thoseare things that will likely pass
through your mind at some point.
Um, it's really, I have shiny,massive shiny object syndrome,
(23:01):
and it's so easy to getdistracted.
Um, so I'm going to say a fewthings, they all kind of relate
back to each other.
I think, um, the center of whatyou talked about was this kind
of idea of, um, growing a team.
So a lot of people think growingyour revenue equals growing your
team and enlarging things thatway.
(23:23):
I think it's so important.
This is why we do the teacher,mentor, first, uh, approach
started.
For a couple of reasons, becauseagencies have a really high
level of need of control.
When I was in my last agencyrole, I had a quarter of a
million pound a year budget.
Like it was not insignificant,but I ended up sacking all the
(23:43):
external agencies and support wewere using because we were
redoing everything because wehad such a high need for control
and, uh, having it just.
So I was like, this is the, notnecessarily me, but this is the
reality of this workenvironment.
So actually outsourcing doesn'tnecessarily work for a lot of
audiences.
So don't, don't think thatgrowing a team or getting extra
(24:04):
support is necessarily going tobe the key for you and is really
kind of.
Um, tied in with this successand growth.
Um, the other thing about thatis it's, it's super important to
have done it yourself first.
Like if you don't know how to doit, you will not know how to
(24:24):
outsource it in the mostefficient way.
You will end up wasting money,time, energy.
You will write off that channel,whatever.
I'm thinking, you know, if itwas a marketing channel, we were
outsourcing like podcast orsocial media, you will end up
Saying, oh, it doesn't workbecause you haven't briefed that
person properly.
It doesn't mean they weren't agood person.
It doesn't mean it wouldn't workfor you.
So I think it's really importantto try things for yourself first
(24:47):
and understand what isimportant.
Now that then is mind blowing tothe average entrepreneur because
that means that you've got to doYou've got to do everything and
you don't.
So bringing it back again, Ithink it's really important to
understand what are theessentials, what to focus on.
And when you do have shinyobject syndrome, or it's just
overwhelming, you start enteringthis world and there are so many
(25:08):
messages and you're like, Okay,I will focus, but tell me what
to focus on.
It's really hard to findsomebody who's genuine and, um,
has walked the walk, you know,much like you, Joe, and, um, is
able to say, no, I can tell youthat's a dead end, but you, and,
you know, you should be focusingon this.
You should be thinking aboutthat.
And that is what I offer to myclients as well.
It's like, Those things you'redoing.
(25:29):
I did those.
We didn't see any return fromit.
This is what is offering return.
So I recommend starting withthat.
So you are going to have to trya lot of stuff, but it's good to
have a list of stuff that isappropriate to your type of
business, your stage ofbusiness, your location.
Because so much of the resourceswe look at are from the U.
S.
Where the audience type is verydifferent, you know, consumer,
(25:51):
like, Behavior is just verydifferent.
So it's not necessarily suitedto your audience.
I think there's a couple ofother factors that come into
this as well.
I think it's really important tobe self aware and understand who
you are and what yourpersonality is.
Um, so I, yeah, I am, I mean,it's, it's not a therapy
session, but it's like, there'sso many, I now see as you're
(26:13):
asking the question is like, ohyeah, that's why my business
took that channel.
So for example, um, We'veexperimented with loads of
different marketing techniquesover the years.
The reality is I love havingconversations like this.
So now all of our marketingwaterfalls down cascades down
from, um, the podcast, which isessentially just started with me
(26:35):
recording conversations I washaving anyhow.
It wasn't like we went out thereand said, we're gonna start a
podcast.
I just hit record on aconversation I thought would be
useful to other people.
And how it's evolved is nowwe're curating so often it's.
Um, uh, there's a lot of soloepisodes.
Um, there's a lot of interviewsas well.
We're interviewing our clientsclients.
We're interviewing our ownclients.
(26:55):
We're interviewing prospectiveclients who are kind of at stage
further on.
We're interviewing other serviceproviders who help our clients.
So we can understand what isthe, the kind of hybrid, you
know, where do things crossover.
But they're all conversationsthat I should be having in my
business for personal, you know,business.
What do they call it?
Continuous professionaldevelopment, I think my mum
calls it.
She's an occupational therapist.
(27:16):
And it's that kind of thing.
So think of it as that for your,your non NHS role, if you have
your own business.
Oh, I love that.
So we have an appraisal systemin the NHS and we do CPD, we do
learning.
Yeah.
To get through our appraisal andit is the same.
I love that analogy.
I'm going to have to go andcreate some sort of, but it's,
(27:37):
it's just so right.
It is our continual professionaldevelopment and it is our
personal development and, and wecannot expect to outsource.
I think you're totally spot onoutsourcing stuff and not
understanding means that you'renot giving the information and
people you outsource needinformation, um, to be able to
do a great job.
And however amazing they are.
So I think that's brilliant.
(27:59):
Can I add a couple of morethings on that?
Sorry.
I, I just wanted to say as well.
Um, it's not just about yourpersonality.
It's about the reality of yourlife.
So the other thing was, I waslooking to a lot of people when
I started my business who aresingle and don't have kids and
don't plan to and have all thistime to dedicate to their
(28:20):
business.
I have two small children.
I work part time.
Those things are not going tochange.
They're non negotiables for me.
It's really important to me thatI work, but I don't, I also need
to spend time with, uh, my localpeople and be at certain pickups
and drop offs.
Not all of them.
Um, I need to be flexible so Ican go read to my daughter's
classroom when I'm invited to at9am on a Wednesday morning.
(28:43):
They never give us enoughnotice, but, you know, I'd like
to be able to participate inthose things.
So it's really important to methat I don't, uh, create in
Marketing my own business, Idon't create a, um, a really
rigid structure that doesn'thave flex.
So, like I said, thoseconversations that we record for
the podcast are ones we wouldhave anyhow, they then become
(29:05):
our podcast, they become our,the transcript, Script is the
starting point for our blogpost, uh, it's the starting
point for our email that goesout, um, or multiple emails and
all of our social media content,um, both posts and snippets are
linked to newsletter.
So it just, it's just oneconversation and then everything
flows down from that.
So be realistic about your time,your personality, the things you
(29:29):
should be doing anyhow, and howthey can kind of, things can
overlap, you know?
Yes.
Yes, that's brilliant.
Absolutely brilliant.
And this, I think people thatare, that are established, they
know who they want to help.
They're out there that maybethey've got their first five
paying clients.
They're maybe looking towardshow to introduce group programs,
courses, that sort of thing.
(29:50):
Once you know who you're talkingto, This is fantastic advice.
And I'm starting to see thatmyself in these conversations
that I'm having collaborative ofthings that I'm doing.
It all links together.
I think for those who are veryearly days, this is a
conversation to, to listen backto as you go through your,
through your, um, your journeywithout reaching out to some of
(30:12):
the shiny American opportunity,listen, podcasts that are out
there, this is real life tomums.
Talking about how they growtheir business around their
family.
And I'm as guilty, um, asanybody is of occasionally
thinking, God, I've created abusiness that, you know, now I'm
sitting in front of zoom all daywhile my daughter's doing her
(30:33):
work on the kitchen table andI'm kind of popping in and out
and, you know, I've got thatflex to cancel for sure, but
I've created quite a rigid day.
And I think it's sometimes.
You do create yourself a jobthat means that actually nobody
else can actually do what you'redoing anyway.
So you've got to be mindful ofwhat you're creating.
And I really bang on about thatpersonality type, um, what you
(30:54):
want your life to look like,what, you know, what you're
actually signing up to.
Brilliant.
Love that.
So we are going to just touchon, before we wrap up, we're
going to touch on this organicreach versus paid reach thing.
This is how we came to worktogether.
So I always say to, um, myclients, you know, your, your
business and getting what you doout there is going to take time
(31:16):
or money or both.
And, you know, you can standwith a loud hailer outside your
house and shout, or you can usesome of the tools that are now
available, particularly for anonline business.
So I started off looking atFacebook ads and I've done some
Facebook ads, but I very, I'vedone that for a couple of
businesses and I've got someamazing people in my world that
help with Facebook ads, but I'verealized that my clients,
(31:38):
entrepreneurial medics are noton Facebook.
They're on LinkedIn.
They might be on Facebook intheir WhatsApp feeds, but
they're on LinkedIn.
I've been working with GemmaGilbert, you and you and I met
through Gemma and you putsomething as a suggestion to me.
Do you want to tell everybodywhat that was and how that
started?
Looked for us.
Gosh, it was, I think we firststarted talking specifically
(32:01):
about this in February and thenlife.
Life.
And we didn't really do anythingabout or rather, I didn't really
proactively do anything about itfor quite a long period of time.
And then we were pivoting ourbusiness to more directly, um.
I guess target, um, beyondagencies.
Cause like I said, agencies werenaturally, uh, we were targeting
them, but naturally throughreferrals, we were getting
(32:22):
different kinds of business.
And I realized I was reallyenjoying working with
individuals who have more kindof sovereignty in their business
and ability to make decisionsand are really clear about who
they're serving.
Cause they're probably workingfor a very specific niche, just
like you are Joe.
So what we worked.
To, uh, set up is basically iswhat I would recommend anybody
(32:45):
who works with somebody who is aprofessional or so service
providers who work withprofessionals, whether they are
employed or self employed orkind of thinking about becoming
self employed, LinkedIn islikely to be the place where
they're hanging out.
Um, and LinkedIn is a massive,uh, Massively undertapped
(33:06):
resource in terms of buildingyour audience and, um, finding
clients without spending afortune.
So to give some context, thefirst five years.
no more.
Eight years of my business.
We only use LinkedIn.
We only use what I've set up foryou in order to win clients.
(33:26):
And it was enough.
And then I got all ambitiousafter I came back from my second
maternity leave and I was like,we're going to grow.
We're going to take over theworld and spanked a load of
money on Facebook ads the hardway.
And now I'm redoing that.
I've not given up.
I do.
Yeah.
It's, it's not something to giveup on, but it's a really easy
way to waste a lot of money.
Um, Probably too early on inyour business, um, and linked
(33:50):
in, I would.
I would say, think of it as akind of sandbox to try things
out that ultimately you'd beable to move across to and scale
up on meta ads.
Cause there are kind of caps interms of what you can do on
LinkedIn that don't exist onother platforms where you're
actually paying for traffic.
Um, but it's a really good placeto test things out.
(34:10):
Test out theories withoutspending a fortune.
Um, and you know what?
It might just work and you mightnot need to go to another
platform.
And in which case, amazing,because I mentioned before that
sales navigator is, um, 800pounds a year.
That could essentially be yourmarketing budget, uh, for
finding your audience.
And it was for us, like I said,for the vast proportion of time
that we've, um, that caffeinehas been in, uh, existence.
(34:33):
So what we do, uh, you, sorry,the original question was, what
have we done?
Right.
Well, yeah, I mean, I thinkthat's what we've done, isn't
it?
We've gone out there and, and,and tried to find
entrepreneurial medics throughus.
We don't, I don't think we needto go into the full details, but
it's like, it's getting that,like you say, service providers
(34:53):
who are helping professionalshaving a system.
Yeah.
To get good leads and lead, youknow, this whole leads word
sometimes makes peopleuncomfortable, but if you've
created a business and you'reoffering a service, you need to
find the people that need theservice.
There are people out there thatneed your product.
Yeah.
And It's about finding thoseindividuals on LinkedIn as
(35:14):
opposed to Google ads or metaads.
Yeah, absolutely.
And there is so, there's so muchterminology around sales that
makes it really scary for peoplewho haven't necessarily had
sales as part of their, um, aspart of their business before.
But if you think of it as thepeople who.
Hopefully you're targetingpeople who would likely work
with you, and then you're hopingto engage and get on the radar
(35:36):
of people who might work withyou at some point in the next
five years.
And then there are the, um, thekind of much smaller number of
people who will be ready toreach, to work with you right
now.
And I think this can be shockingfor people who haven't done
sales and marketing before.
They just assume that they reachout.
You create the thing and theywill flock.
And Oh man, I can't tell you, I,I did marketing at university
(35:58):
and I'm still constantly letdown by the lack of flocking.
So you just like anticipateyou're going to have to build a
long runway in your business interms of outreach.
I was having a conversation theother day with somebody who said
they're a strategist.
They work with really hugecompanies.
Um, and they said, They believeafter the many years in business
(36:18):
that a founder should beserving, spending 70 percent of
their time on marketing andsales, which is petrifying.
You know, for the majority ofthose people that applies to,
they're probably thinking thatthat's not why I started a
business.
That's not why I'm in charge ofthis thing.
And essentially what we've, um,helped to do.
You to set up on LinkedIn, theway that we recommend to most
people, uh, as a starting pointin terms of marketing and
(36:42):
outreach.
So you can start getting on theradar of those potential clients
is, uh, has the ability to beautomated, which is amazing
because it means that yes, youare like, Effort wise, your
business is spending 70 percentof its time doing outreach, but
physically you're not doing anyof it.
You're responding to the peoplewho are genuinely interested in
what you're offering.
(37:02):
Um, it also makes it less scarybecause, you know, even for
somebody who's spent the wholecareer in marketing and sales,
like I still get sweaty when Ipick up the phone to make a cold
call, like no one feels goodabout necessarily doing that
kind of outreach.
So we.
There's a couple of things, notjust automation, because the
automation is doing it on yourbehalf and you're in a
responding to the people you'reinterested, but we also, and the
(37:25):
part we haven't talked abouthere, and we haven't necessarily
done with your business, Joe, iswe create something you're going
to be reaching out with thatyou're really proud to reach out
with, because you know, thatit's genuinely something that
serves the audience, whichbrings us back to that client
listening exercise at thebeginning.
If you've really listened and itdoesn't have to be hard, it's
often called a lead magnet.
(37:45):
I don't know if your audience isfamiliar with that term.
Could be a PDF.
I actually have a book.
Um, don't feel like you have todo a book.
My very first lead magnet wasum, a five email sequence which
was uh, one tip a day for fivedays about how to um, attract
clients to your marketingagency.
It was just that.
It wasn't overwhelming andactually had a much better
(38:07):
success rate than some of thelike, Some of the much longer
things that I've done since.
So create something based onwhat you did when you listened
in, um, that will serve theaudience and reach out to them
and say, Hey, I created thisthing.
I thought based on, you know,your profile, I thought it might
be of interest.
Would you like a copy?
So you're not like hammeringthem with your work.
(38:28):
You're offering something thatis a value to them, which is
another reason that our clientsare proud to get in contact.
Um, And, and yeah, and I thinkthat summarizes it.
I think the, the majority of thepeople that we work with to kind
of give you some context, theyserve their service providers,
they serve professionals in somecapacity, but the things that
(38:49):
unify them is they have feararound sales and new business
and marketing.
They don't have a lot of time.
They don't have a lot of moneyand they don't really have an
idea about where to start.
And that's ultimately who weserve.
This is this kind of LinkedInpractice that we're talking
about.
Yeah.
And we take our clients throughall of those stages, by the way,
defining your audience, buildingyour list, doing the client
(39:12):
listening, building somethingthat will be a value to them.
So building a lead magnet andthen, um, reaching out to people
and then automating it.
And then what you do after thatpoint.
So we take you through thatwhole process.
So if you were in a positionwith your business where it
might even be concept.
you might not even actually havea product or an idea.
You might be looking, lookingfor evidence to leave your job.
(39:35):
Um, then this would also applyfor you.
You can go through all thosesteps and kind of do proof of
concept basically.
Yeah.
Amazing.
Fantastic.
Amazing, amazing, amazing.
And I think there'll be variouspeople at various points on that
journey.
And I think from, for the peoplethat were within my program who
have kind of gone from that,like, medic who's really
(39:55):
struggling to see how they cando anything through to us sort
of collating ideas and bringingtogether and getting out there
and finding that proof ofconcept.
They're often at a positionwhere they've got an audience
that they want to help andthey've often got a lead magnet
that they, that they have put alot of time and effort into it.
And I think for those peoplethen to get out and, and Find
(40:16):
their audience.
But as I've experienced, I'vebeen like, Ooh, is my lead
magnet exactly what I want?
And you find yourself like sortof procrastinating a little bit,
and you've got to believe inyourself enough to get started
with something, even though itmight not be perfect.
And you've mentioned a couple ofthings about, you know, things
like the numbers of people thatyou need to bring into your
audience who might want to get afree thing, who then might want
(40:38):
to get a paid thing and then abigger paid thing.
We could talk for hours, but Ithink.
Um, you know, it's aconversation maybe for us to
have like a follow upconversation and in six months
or so, once we've done this fora bit longer and seeing how it's
going, um, to kind of feedbackwith some results maybe, because
I think there's a lot in thisepisode.
So I think, you know, I know we,I normally ask for advice at the
(41:00):
end, but actually I think we'vedone this the other way around,
we've gone with advice at thebeginning.
I think, I think if I can offerone piece of advice and it just
touching on what you said, seekcompletion, not perfection.
You're never, it's never goingto be perfect.
There are so many things in mybook.
You should see the Asana board,um, between me and my
assistants, which is like allthe things that I want to fix in
the business.
(41:21):
Um, And, or you make shinier orbetter, but if you wait, nothing
will happen.
So imperfect action, startbefore you're ready.
All of those adages, um, thinkless, do more.
These are the keys to beinglike, To kind of getting moving,
(41:41):
a boss once said to me in mysecond day of a job, I was
absolutely petrified.
Um, it was really scary.
It wasn't what I'd anticipated.
And he said, Charlotte, when dowe learn to cycle?
It was like, he wasn't Britishnative.
And so his English was a bit.
Unusual, but he was basicallysaying, when, when do you, when
can you actually begin to kindof cycle and it's like, when you
(42:03):
get your momentum up, when youstart moving, like if you won't
take your feet off the floor andyou won't just continuously
pedal, then you're not actuallygoing to do the thing.
And I, I, at the time I waslike, what the hell is this guy
talking about?
And then in my leaving speech, Iactually kind of said it back.
And it was like, that was thebest bit of advice I think I've
had.
Um, Because you need to dosomething in order to iterate
(42:23):
and improve.
So just start.
Brilliant.
Amazing.
Well, I will link you up in theshow notes.
Everything that you've talkedabout, website, LinkedIn, and
people can just reach out and,and get in touch with you.
If they're interested in findingout more.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I'd love that.
Okay.
Thank you so much for your time.
Bye bye.
Oh, thanks.
My God.
(42:44):
We could talk all day.
Hi there.
This is a bit of a differentpodcast episode because I was
interviewed by my, uh, one of mybusiness buddies, Dr.
Jay Watkins, who used to be acolleague in a group coaching
program.
We were both in and has becomekind of a business friend, and
we worked together from time totime and just.
Shoot the breeze and generallyhelp each other out with bits
and bobs.
And she invited me to go on herpodcast and speak about, uh, my
(00:25):
experience and how my businessgot to this point.
And I just thought that it wouldbe a really useful, um, or
interesting rather thing to, foryou guys to listen to as well.
So I'm sharing here on, uh, theCaffeine podcast and I hope you
enjoy it.
Speak to you next time.
Bye.
Dr. Jo Watkins (00:42):
Welcome to the podcast, Charlotte.
Charlotte Ellis Maldari (00:45):
Thank you.
And I have to say, I'm reallyappreciating your backdrop for
the people who are listening onaudio and don't know.
Jo is currently on a desertisland, according to Zoom, and
that really resonates with thefact I just gave you.
So, lovely to be here.
I
Dr. Jo Watkins (00:56):
love it.
I know, I'm on my desert islandthat I kind of, every time I
switch on Zoom, I kind of wishthat I lived there, sort of.
But I was just saying, it is abit windy on my island, isn't
it?
It is.
I can see why you're wearing ajumper.
Yeah, there's a lot of movementand, um, I'd love to say that
Swansea Bay looks a little bitlike that today, but it doesn't.
Before we get into the nittygritty, the citizenship of two,
where, where are those twocountries?
(01:17):
Uh, Britain and Italy.
Oh, nice.
And the five?
The Italians made me work reallyhard to get that citizenship.
It took me 14 years, but I wonin the end.
Amazing.
And what about the five thatyou've lived in?
Ooh, okay.
Um, France, Italy, Cambodia,South Korea, and I'm going to
(01:39):
include the UK as well.
Fabulous.
And before we went live, we werejust talking about, um, talking
about how, how we go aboutworking and traveling, which is
something we can, we can touchon a little bit into in the sort
of what we're going to talkabout.
So it is brilliant to have youhere.
Um, I have had the absolutehonor and pleasure of working
with you, um, recently quite alot.
(02:02):
So let's just go back a littlebit.
As you know, I'm a doctor.
You're in this world that usdoctors look at and say, what
does that actually mean?
What does she actually do?
I don't understand because we'vebeen programmed to only
understand one thing.
So tell us a little bit aboutthe kind of people you help,
what you do, and maybe a littlebit about how we ended up
(02:23):
working together.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, is it okay if I just goback a bit, just to give some
context?
Absolutely.
So just, um, before we hitrecord, Jo was telling me that,
um, she wasn't aware of what abrand was until relatively
recently.
And I think, um, I think this isreally key to the story because
I think we're often, we'rereally, really aware of what we
(02:44):
know and the track that we'resticking on and we're not always
aware of all the otheropportunities and the ways of
doing things in the world.
So I.
I have been obsessed with brandfor as long as I can remember.
I have known that I've wanted towork around the world of brand,
uh, but I was shit at art.
Sorry.
Can I swear?
Okay.
Fine.
Um, I was just, yeah, really badat art at school.
(03:07):
And I was like, well, that meansI can't be a creative person.
I, you know, at school and theyjust like put you into these,
they just put labels like you'renot creative.
You're the humanities person.
You're not a science person.
You'll never be a doctor.
It was like, You know, you can'tdo all three sciences at GCSE.
So those opportunities are offthe table for you, which is
something I've thought about alot when we've been working
(03:28):
together and the kind of themindset of who you, who you work
with.
Um, so with that in mind, uh, Iwent to university to do
marketing with a kind ofcommunication and fashion slant
at Leeds Uni.
And, and then I, um, I've workedwith.
Creative agencies for the mostpart during my time in, in
(03:49):
companies as an employee, um, askind of, um, one of the only non
fee earning people within thebusiness, which is a really
weird role to be in, in aservice provider.
So I have worked in raising theprofile and winning new business
for those agencies, um, that'sbeen the vast majority of my
(04:10):
time, uh, in industry.
And, um, There was a bit of acurve ball that happened.
I left my last agency that Iworked at full time and, uh,
where I was head of marketing anew business and across three
different continents.
Um, and we, I, I had anopportunity to go work with a
tech startup, a very well fundedtech startup in Silicon
(04:33):
roundabout.
Um, it was the heyday of, um, Ofthat world.
And there was so much moneygoing into it because of EIS
funding, et cetera.
And, uh, I came into thiscompany who really, they, they
had no marketing functionwhatsoever.
So it was completely blankslate.
And this was so weird for mebecause I'd come from working in
like really regimented kind ofenvironment.
(04:54):
You know, agencies are veryprecise.
They're like perfection.
Everything has to be done acertain way to tech startups,
which, you know, the mantra ofthe industry is, you Move fast
and break things.
So I had this incredibleopportunity to experiment a lot
more.
And over the period of about sixmonths, I realized I'd learned
more in that six months period,um, than I had in kind of like
(05:14):
the preceding 10 years.
And if I could take myexperience in, uh, with
technology automation that Ideveloped during that tech
startup, uh, marketing, um,role, and then bring it back to
the agencies that I really lovedand missed working with,
frankly, then it would.
We have the potential to kind ofreally accelerate what they were
(05:35):
capable of doing, the reach thatthey had, the new business
opportunities that would comein.
So I basically found like, it'slike the little bit, I don't
know what it's called in theVenn diagram, like that plus
that equals superpower.
So then I started my ownconsultancy, caffeine.
Um, predominantly working withcreative agencies from kind of
one person through to 250 peoplein multiple countries, helping
(05:57):
to do exactly that.
We raise their profile, help todraw new business into them
rather than go and cold call ordo ads or like just hammer
people over the head with amessage when they don't want to
hear it and really position themas an authority so that clients
come to them, um, and stay andthey're visible in front of
those prospective clients aswell.
(06:18):
Um, And it was working reallywell, you know, I've had
caffeine for, I think, 10 yearsnow, 10 years next year, um.
And I, some door shutting.
I was just checking you weren'tdisappearing off into the sea.
I know I look like I was, butI've just shut the door.
I don't, the family, despite theinstructions, I'm filming a
(06:41):
podcast still.
They never do, do they?
Carry on, carry on.
Um, and.
And so I knew it was goingreally well.
And over time I started gettingmore and more referrals and I
realized that it didn't justappeal to creative agencies,
even though that was mystronghold.
It really pretty much what I wasteaching them to do and what was
(07:02):
implementing for them, um, worksfor pretty much any service
provider.
Um, the, we do a variety ofthings, but kind of the mainstay
involves LinkedIn.
And basically if your client'son LinkedIn, it works for you.
That, that is kind of the, thelong and short of it.
Um, yeah, so I, not that there'sany secret sauce, but I don't
(07:22):
want to make it overcomplicated.
So, um, I'll kind of leave it atthat and you ask me any more
questions to kind of probe outwhat, what it is, so to speak.
Amazing.
So, I mean, what a great story.
And I think a really goodexample of, like you say,
combining everything.
Combine, you know, looking atwhat you love, what you're good
at, what.
What the world needs and gettingout there and actually providing
it in your own, in your ownagency, taking everything that
(07:45):
you've learned along the way.
And that, that story is, issomething that you hear about
quite often in this sort ofcorporate marketing setting, but
it's certainly not something weas medics do.
We do the opposite.
We just go down this very linearpath of, you know, escalating
through the Um, through thegrades until we get to a point
where we then stay in that jobfor the rest of our lives.
(08:07):
And yeah, I remember somebody,somebody who I, who has helped
me from early days finding thatquite obscure because he's like,
you know, in the, in, when youget to that point in business,
you at least move company everyfour or five years, every four
or five years, keep it alive.
Whereas we're just in this, thiseither GP or consultant position
for a long, long time.
(08:27):
So Thank you for telling thatbecause I think it puts this in
context and we, we talked a bitabout brand right at the
beginning and I told you thestory of when I first started
my, with my granola company 15years ago, I knew that I wanted
to make this thing and I knewwhat it was and I knew what I
wanted to be called.
And somebody said, well, you canget a grant for branding.
(08:50):
I was like, what, what'sbranding?
And they were like, well, youknow, to like, make it look nice
on the label.
I was like, oh, right.
I thought I just did that on,you know, some, I don't, I don't
know.
I don't know how I thought thathappened.
And a branding consultant, Lucy,um, Ali Hopper, who's still
around.
She's amazing.
She came around to the kitchentable.
And she was asking me whatbrands I liked.
And I was like, I don't reallyeven know what a brand is.
(09:11):
And she was like, right.
Okay.
We've got to start basic, go tothe cupboard, get your beans.
Um, and she was brilliant.
So we, we don't know this stuff.
And I think sometimes we enterthis world of business.
We suddenly feel like literallya fish out of water.
So learning from people like youis really, really important.
And, but, you know, branding isessentially, you know, the look
(09:32):
and the feel of your business,isn't it?
And why somebody is going tocome to you over somebody else.
Um, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
And then the LinkedIn thing I'dlike to talk about a bit more.
So, so in terms of the brandingand how we market ourselves, can
you just tell us a little bitabout that?
As, as little people that are,you know, people with a lot of
knowledge that are going outthere and feeling like little
(09:55):
fish in a big pond.
Yeah, absolutely.
Well, I predominantly, it'sinteresting.
You mentioned the two referencepoints behind, weren't they?
Well, I spent the majority ofmy, um, in agency career.
Um, so when I was working withinbigger agencies, they were
predominantly brand andpackaging design companies
working with FMCG brands.
Now that is a whole lot ofwords, but basically it means
(10:18):
things you find in the fridge,in the cupboard, things you find
in the supermarket.
There is such a phenomenalamount of money.
And thought and psychology and Imean, it's mind blowing how
much, uh, how much energy is putinto what the package looks like
on the shelf.
(10:38):
Um, uh, honestly I could spend,I could spend three episodes
talking about that.
It's fascinating to me.
But what I do predominantly nowis, um, is not on behalf of
brands that are, uh, consumerfacing.
It's working with, so thingsthat lay people by in their
spare time.
Um, it's working with serviceproviders and businesses to
(10:59):
shape their personal brand,their company brand through, um,
not necessarily what it lookslike.
We're not a, well, in fact, notat all.
We are not a, we're not reallyan agency.
Um, more consultants, to behonest, we Um, very much have a
teacher man to fish approach,um, help you get things set up.
(11:19):
And so you can continue tomanage them internally, um,
rather than do it for you,because a lot of small to medium
sized businesses don't, forvarious reasons, either
financial or, or controlreasons, don't want to be
working with an externalprovider in the longterm.
And, and I certainly felt thatway when I was in agency, um,
And so what was I going to say?
(11:40):
So what we do, how we shape thatbrand from, um, a, uh, a
business perspective and justthinking about what would be
most useful to your audience.
I think, so it's reallyinteresting.
I now serve.
Um, a lot of branding andmarketing agencies.
Um, I've mentioned they're notthe only people that I serve,
(12:03):
but it's fascinating how theycan do this all day long for
their clients and they can'tnecessarily do it for
themselves.
And I, I just want to say that'suniversal.
Okay.
If that feels, if that feelsfamiliar, like it's just.
True of parenting.
Parenting.
It's like parenting.
It's like parenting.
You can Oh yeah.
Parent other people's childrenall the time.
Yeah.
(12:23):
And like for example, most of myfamily works for the NHSI grew
up in my mom's house.
She didn't own a thermometer andsent me to school for two weeks
with gular fever'cause sherefused to believe I was sick.
So it's like, you know whatyou're talking about?
No, but they the, the thingsthat we practice at work don't
necessarily apply, do they?
When we're, we're looking at ourown own world.
(12:43):
So that's, that's.
the point that I kind of want tomake with that.
So often I'm taking them back tobasics and thinking about,
because they are often, um,well, sorry, I'll bring it back
to the lens of, of your, um, ofyour world, Joe, and the people
that you work with.
So, Well, the exercise that wemake anybody that we work with
do right at the very start ofworking together is, um, define
(13:07):
who they is their targetaudience.
And I hate the classic customerprofile, like avatar.
I hate going through that.
I expect it's like, to me, it'ssuch a waste of time drawing a
picture of what that person'sface is, looks like, or, but we
do it through, um, uh, LinkedIn,which really focuses the mind.
Cause that's ultimately whatwe're going to be using in the
(13:28):
longterm.
So we use a tool called salesnavigator.
It's a paid, um, Uh, tool withinLinkedIn.
Um, that is the main expensewhen, in terms of what we
recommend clients to do.
And it comes to, I think around800 pounds a year at the moment,
best money I spend in mybusiness.
Um, well, I'm sure we'll getonto that later on, but, um, we
use the filters within salesnavigator to, to really define
(13:52):
down who our target audience is.
Um, on behalf of the client.
And then once we've defined thatdown, and trust me that's not a
scary process, it's actuallyreally enjoyable if you like
investigating things.
It's a bit, it's like theSherlock Holmes kind of part of
the job and I really love it.
I'm actually in a spiral ofdoing that right now.
Um, Joe, we talked before we hitrecord about not being able to
(14:14):
meet on another app, it'sbecause I'm in Sherlock Holmes
mode and I've got 20, 30 tabsopen on LinkedIn because I'm
doing this for a client rightnow, um, just ahead of our call.
And once we've kind of definedwho the audience is, then we
speak to them.
Um, so we do customer listeningand that basically is, um,
(14:39):
speaking with a list ofquestions to people who've
either worked with you or arerespectively would, would work
with you in the future.
You know, they're your kind oftarget, um, uh, person.
And we asked them a series ofquestions, which is designed to
really get under the skin ofwhat their hopes, dreams, fears,
pain points, challenges are,and, and more.
(15:00):
Um, We pull all of that togetherand then we, um, analyze it and
pull out key themes.
And that is really what's at theheart of creating a, um, a
client led brand.
And by that I don't mean you'rejust kind of like following
behind them like a little sheep.
(15:20):
It's, it's making sure that yourbrand is consistently speaking
to the challenges, hopes, fears,that your, um, your perspective
Uh, client has, otherwise it'sjust going to fall on deaf ears.
And if you do that, people thinkthat you're psychic.
They think that you, um,understand them, uh, to their
core.
(15:40):
They're like, how do you knowthis stuff?
That's exactly me.
And it's, it's really funny.
It's cause they've just told youand then you're repeating it
back to them.
Um, so that is kind of thefoundations of how we help to
develop what your brandpersonality would be like in
terms of your marketing and yourcontent as a service provider.
Brilliant.
And I think this, you know, I,everything you're saying, I'm,
(16:02):
I'm, I'm kind of seeing theimprint on the stuff that I talk
about within my program.
And I, we, you know, we, Isuggest people get on calls, get
on as many calls as they canwith their, with their ideal
clients or the type of peoplethat they think they want to
work with.
It's only when you get in frontof those people and ask those
people the right questions thatyou really understand, um, what
(16:23):
their problems are and howthey're feeling, because
otherwise you're creating quiteoften.
In, in my experience for sure,you're creating a solution to a
problem that you havepotentially, but you haven't
really gone out there andinterviewed anyone else.
So it's almost like you've got acase study of one, which is
generally, you know, quite oftena problem that you've come
(16:44):
across yourself and you've goneout there and created what you
think is the, is the solution tothe problem without doing the
interview.
So getting in front of people,and that's what you're doing on
a much bigger scale by doingthis.
Yeah.
Yeah, and do you mind if I justsay a few more points about that
because there are a few tipsthat I think will be helpful.
So, um, First of all, you wouldnot believe how many people
think that they can skip this sestep and it's not relevant to
(17:06):
them.
It is the biggest mistake you'relikely to make if you don't get
this foundation level thingdone.
And I know it's a bit scary, um,especially, and I have this
complete fear around speaking tomy own clients because I'm
scared.
What, what if I didn't performor what, you know, just classic.
Self esteem.
So I get an independent personto do this for the most part.
(17:29):
I'm massively over deliveringand it's not actually a concern,
but you know, I'm not saying I'mimmune to it is, is what I want
to kind of communicate that.
But do not skip it.
Just like feel the fear and doit anyway, or get somebody else
to do it for you or speak topeople you haven't actually
worked with, but all yourprospective audience, because
then you don't have to worryabout what they say about the
experience of working with you.
Um, A couple of points that Ireally recommend, uh, to kind of
(17:52):
encourage you to do this.
Well, I mean, we give ourclients a list of questions to
ask.
Often the conversation becomesmore organic, but that you've
got questions to kind of comeback to, to make sure that
you're kind of covering off thepoints that you need.
And I really recommend going inwith structure and doing these
calls, not necessarily inperson, But on zoom, like we're
speaking right now, I have thisincredible tool plugged in.
(18:15):
Um, it's from free it's calledfathom.
I don't know if you've heard ofit, but it's, um, it basically
sits in the room with you and,uh, records, uh, what you're
talking about, creates atranscript.
Afterwards.
You also have the option to kindof click bookmarks.
If a point came up that youreally want to remember, but
basically you can focus ontalking, not note making, and
that's really crucial because ifyou're This is the time to be
(18:36):
curious and to really kind ofprobe.
You don't want to be thinkingabout formulating your next
question and not reallylistening to the answer because
probably there's kind of kernelswithin.
It's the classic psychologistapproach of, and what, and what
else?
And what else, you know, likeyou keep asking that you get to
the really, really juicy stuff.
So you want to be able to focusso you can ask the what else at
the right points.
And, um, Also, I recommend likemost of the people that I work
(19:00):
with carry around like aMoleskine notebook to all their
meetings.
I don't know if you've probablygot one on the table.
You can relate.
I just recommend on the veryback page, like jot down
whenever a client, you know,outside of a customer listening
environment, um, jot down whensomebody complains about
something, you know, not justyour kids.
But somebody you'd like to workwith, or they talk about what
(19:21):
they'd hope to do, or a trendthat they're concerned they're
not focusing on, or justanything.
And that is a really goodresource when you're thinking
about content creation, be itpodcast episodes, lead magnet.
Website content, uh, socialmedia posts, just that, that
start with that.
Um, and then the final thing isonce you've got all of that and
(19:44):
you come into analyze it, andyou're looking at this huge
document of transcripts, this iswhere it's really helpful to use
something like chat GPT, again,from free put in, uh, All of the
gumph, like from all, all thetranscripts from the phone
calls, all the notes you've gotat the back of your moleskin,
um, and ask it to analyze it andkind of group it, um, so that
you've got kind of key themescoming through, and then you've
(20:06):
basically got the foundation ofwhat you should be saying to
your audience.
Brilliant.
Absolutely brilliant.
Those are, those are fantastic,fantastic take homes, guys.
And I'm going to link, you know,link those things that you
talked about, fathom, I think,and the use of chat GPT.
Again, most medics come out in avisible rash when I mentioned
(20:27):
because that's like, what's thatall about?
That's going to take over theworld.
And it's in terms of like, Youknow, getting through those idea
blocks, generating content fromwhat you've got already,
signposting you, um, breakingthings down for you.
I mean, it's just, it's justunbelievable, but I just, I want
to come back to a couple ofthings that you have mentioned.
(20:49):
And I, and I, and I love whatyou've just said.
I think it's really, reallyhelpful.
I want to come back to thisteach a man to fish concept you,
that you talked about and.
Again, when we go in, when westep into this entrepreneurial
world as doctors, we oftenabsorb a huge amount of
information from huge numbers ofexperts.
Generally, lots of very glossypeople telling us how easy it is
(21:11):
to make money while we sleep.
Um, how, you know, you can getto 10 K months within four
months and then leave yourcorporate job and how life is so
much better and glossier on theother side.
And I find a lot of people comein.
With, um, sometimes a failure ofa complete feeling of failure
because they've not achievedthat in a very short length of
(21:35):
time.
Um, and I think some of this isput down to, you know, I've got
to be able to outsourceeverything or I've got to learn
to do everything.
And I've had both of thoseextremes within my life.
Business career one, you know,initially I did everything
myself with the granola.
I didn't outsource anything.
I didn't really know what I wasdoing.
The whole concept was alien tome through to the how people
(21:58):
where we outsourced a lot andgrew a team very quickly.
And that has its differentchallenges.
So how important is it for us todo the things in business for us
to understand these, thesethings rather than just letting
go of everything, because surelythere's a There's something here
about longevity, isn't there?
Like, it's about podcasting, forexample, and getting your kids
(22:20):
to help.
And, you know, can you speak alittle bit about doing it all
yourself versus outsourcing?
Yeah, I wrote a lot of pointsdown as you're talking.
It made, I was thinking abouthow my company has developed
itself, because I really relateto what you're talking about.
10K months, six figure business,um, reading Denise Duffield
(22:41):
Thomas books, like, Looking atMarie Forleo, thinking course
building is the solution.
Like, I, I don't know if any ofthese words I'm saying will
resonate with your audience, butI know certainly if you're in
the online business world, thoseare things that will likely pass
through your mind at some point.
Um, it's really, I have shiny,massive shiny object syndrome,
(23:01):
and it's so easy to getdistracted.
Um, so I'm going to say a fewthings, they all kind of relate
back to each other.
I think, um, the center of whatyou talked about was this kind
of idea of, um, growing a team.
So a lot of people think growingyour revenue equals growing your
team and enlarging things thatway.
(23:23):
I think it's so important.
This is why we do the teacher,mentor, first, uh, approach
started.
For a couple of reasons, becauseagencies have a really high
level of need of control.
When I was in my last agencyrole, I had a quarter of a
million pound a year budget.
Like it was not insignificant,but I ended up sacking all the
(23:43):
external agencies and support wewere using because we were
redoing everything because wehad such a high need for control
and, uh, having it just.
So I was like, this is the, notnecessarily me, but this is the
reality of this workenvironment.
So actually outsourcing doesn'tnecessarily work for a lot of
audiences.
So don't, don't think thatgrowing a team or getting extra
(24:04):
support is necessarily going tobe the key for you and is really
kind of.
Um, tied in with this successand growth.
Um, the other thing about thatis it's, it's super important to
have done it yourself first.
Like if you don't know how to doit, you will not know how to
(24:24):
outsource it in the mostefficient way.
You will end up wasting money,time, energy.
You will write off that channel,whatever.
I'm thinking, you know, if itwas a marketing channel, we were
outsourcing like podcast orsocial media, you will end up
Saying, oh, it doesn't workbecause you haven't briefed that
person properly.
It doesn't mean they weren't agood person.
It doesn't mean it wouldn't workfor you.
So I think it's really importantto try things for yourself first
(24:47):
and understand what isimportant.
Now that then is mind blowing tothe average entrepreneur because
that means that you've got to doYou've got to do everything and
you don't.
So bringing it back again, Ithink it's really important to
understand what are theessentials, what to focus on.
And when you do have shinyobject syndrome, or it's just
overwhelming, you start enteringthis world and there are so many
(25:08):
messages and you're like, Okay,I will focus, but tell me what
to focus on.
It's really hard to findsomebody who's genuine and, um,
has walked the walk, you know,much like you, Joe, and, um, is
able to say, no, I can tell youthat's a dead end, but you, and,
you know, you should be focusingon this.
You should be thinking aboutthat.
And that is what I offer to myclients as well.
It's like, Those things you'redoing.
(25:29):
I did those.
We didn't see any return fromit.
This is what is offering return.
So I recommend starting withthat.
So you are going to have to trya lot of stuff, but it's good to
have a list of stuff that isappropriate to your type of
business, your stage ofbusiness, your location.
Because so much of the resourceswe look at are from the U.
S.
Where the audience type is verydifferent, you know, consumer,
(25:51):
like, Behavior is just verydifferent.
So it's not necessarily suitedto your audience.
I think there's a couple ofother factors that come into
this as well.
I think it's really important tobe self aware and understand who
you are and what yourpersonality is.
Um, so I, yeah, I am, I mean,it's, it's not a therapy
session, but it's like, there'sso many, I now see as you're
(26:13):
asking the question is like, ohyeah, that's why my business
took that channel.
So for example, um, We'veexperimented with loads of
different marketing techniquesover the years.
The reality is I love havingconversations like this.
So now all of our marketingwaterfalls down cascades down
from, um, the podcast, which isessentially just started with me
(26:35):
recording conversations I washaving anyhow.
It wasn't like we went out thereand said, we're gonna start a
podcast.
I just hit record on aconversation I thought would be
useful to other people.
And how it's evolved is nowwe're curating so often it's.
Um, uh, there's a lot of soloepisodes.
Um, there's a lot of interviewsas well.
We're interviewing our clientsclients.
We're interviewing our ownclients.
(26:55):
We're interviewing prospectiveclients who are kind of at stage
further on.
We're interviewing other serviceproviders who help our clients.
So we can understand what isthe, the kind of hybrid, you
know, where do things crossover.
But they're all conversationsthat I should be having in my
business for personal, you know,business.
What do they call it?
Continuous professionaldevelopment, I think my mum
calls it.
She's an occupational therapist.
(27:16):
And it's that kind of thing.
So think of it as that for your,your non NHS role, if you have
your own business.
Oh, I love that.
So we have an appraisal systemin the NHS and we do CPD, we do
learning.
Yeah.
To get through our appraisal andit is the same.
I love that analogy.
I'm going to have to go andcreate some sort of, but it's,
(27:37):
it's just so right.
It is our continual professionaldevelopment and it is our
personal development and, and wecannot expect to outsource.
I think you're totally spot onoutsourcing stuff and not
understanding means that you'renot giving the information and
people you outsource needinformation, um, to be able to
do a great job.
And however amazing they are.
So I think that's brilliant.
(27:59):
Can I add a couple of morethings on that?
Sorry.
I, I just wanted to say as well.
Um, it's not just about yourpersonality.
It's about the reality of yourlife.
So the other thing was, I waslooking to a lot of people when
I started my business who aresingle and don't have kids and
don't plan to and have all thistime to dedicate to their
(28:20):
business.
I have two small children.
I work part time.
Those things are not going tochange.
They're non negotiables for me.
It's really important to me thatI work, but I don't, I also need
to spend time with, uh, my localpeople and be at certain pickups
and drop offs.
Not all of them.
Um, I need to be flexible so Ican go read to my daughter's
classroom when I'm invited to at9am on a Wednesday morning.
(28:43):
They never give us enoughnotice, but, you know, I'd like
to be able to participate inthose things.
So it's really important to methat I don't, uh, create in
Marketing my own business, Idon't create a, um, a really
rigid structure that doesn'thave flex.
So, like I said, thoseconversations that we record for
the podcast are ones we wouldhave anyhow, they then become
(29:05):
our podcast, they become our,the transcript, Script is the
starting point for our blogpost, uh, it's the starting
point for our email that goesout, um, or multiple emails and
all of our social media content,um, both posts and snippets are
linked to newsletter.
So it just, it's just oneconversation and then everything
flows down from that.
So be realistic about your time,your personality, the things you
(29:29):
should be doing anyhow, and howthey can kind of, things can
overlap, you know?
Yes.
Yes, that's brilliant.
Absolutely brilliant.
And this, I think people thatare, that are established, they
know who they want to help.
They're out there that maybethey've got their first five
paying clients.
They're maybe looking towardshow to introduce group programs,
courses, that sort of thing.
(29:50):
Once you know who you're talkingto, This is fantastic advice.
And I'm starting to see thatmyself in these conversations
that I'm having collaborative ofthings that I'm doing.
It all links together.
I think for those who are veryearly days, this is a
conversation to, to listen backto as you go through your,
through your, um, your journeywithout reaching out to some of
(30:12):
the shiny American opportunity,listen, podcasts that are out
there, this is real life tomums.
Talking about how they growtheir business around their
family.
And I'm as guilty, um, asanybody is of occasionally
thinking, God, I've created abusiness that, you know, now I'm
sitting in front of zoom all daywhile my daughter's doing her
(30:33):
work on the kitchen table andI'm kind of popping in and out
and, you know, I've got thatflex to cancel for sure, but
I've created quite a rigid day.
And I think it's sometimes.
You do create yourself a jobthat means that actually nobody
else can actually do what you'redoing anyway.
So you've got to be mindful ofwhat you're creating.
And I really bang on about thatpersonality type, um, what you
(30:54):
want your life to look like,what, you know, what you're
actually signing up to.
Brilliant.
Love that.
So we are going to just touchon, before we wrap up, we're
going to touch on this organicreach versus paid reach thing.
This is how we came to worktogether.
So I always say to, um, myclients, you know, your, your
business and getting what you doout there is going to take time
(31:16):
or money or both.
And, you know, you can standwith a loud hailer outside your
house and shout, or you can usesome of the tools that are now
available, particularly for anonline business.
So I started off looking atFacebook ads and I've done some
Facebook ads, but I very, I'vedone that for a couple of
businesses and I've got someamazing people in my world that
help with Facebook ads, but I'verealized that my clients,
(31:38):
entrepreneurial medics are noton Facebook.
They're on LinkedIn.
They might be on Facebook intheir WhatsApp feeds, but
they're on LinkedIn.
I've been working with GemmaGilbert, you and you and I met
through Gemma and you putsomething as a suggestion to me.
Do you want to tell everybodywhat that was and how that
started?
Looked for us.
Gosh, it was, I think we firststarted talking specifically
(32:01):
about this in February and thenlife.
Life.
And we didn't really do anythingabout or rather, I didn't really
proactively do anything about itfor quite a long period of time.
And then we were pivoting ourbusiness to more directly, um.
I guess target, um, beyondagencies.
Cause like I said, agencies werenaturally, uh, we were targeting
them, but naturally throughreferrals, we were getting
(32:22):
different kinds of business.
And I realized I was reallyenjoying working with
individuals who have more kindof sovereignty in their business
and ability to make decisionsand are really clear about who
they're serving.
Cause they're probably workingfor a very specific niche, just
like you are Joe.
So what we worked.
To, uh, set up is basically iswhat I would recommend anybody
(32:45):
who works with somebody who is aprofessional or so service
providers who work withprofessionals, whether they are
employed or self employed orkind of thinking about becoming
self employed, LinkedIn islikely to be the place where
they're hanging out.
Um, and LinkedIn is a massive,uh, Massively undertapped
(33:06):
resource in terms of buildingyour audience and, um, finding
clients without spending afortune.
So to give some context, thefirst five years.
no more.
Eight years of my business.
We only use LinkedIn.
We only use what I've set up foryou in order to win clients.
(33:26):
And it was enough.
And then I got all ambitiousafter I came back from my second
maternity leave and I was like,we're going to grow.
We're going to take over theworld and spanked a load of
money on Facebook ads the hardway.
And now I'm redoing that.
I've not given up.
I do.
Yeah.
It's, it's not something to giveup on, but it's a really easy
way to waste a lot of money.
Um, Probably too early on inyour business, um, and linked
(33:50):
in, I would.
I would say, think of it as akind of sandbox to try things
out that ultimately you'd beable to move across to and scale
up on meta ads.
Cause there are kind of caps interms of what you can do on
LinkedIn that don't exist onother platforms where you're
actually paying for traffic.
Um, but it's a really good placeto test things out.
(34:10):
Test out theories withoutspending a fortune.
Um, and you know what?
It might just work and you mightnot need to go to another
platform.
And in which case, amazing,because I mentioned before that
sales navigator is, um, 800pounds a year.
That could essentially be yourmarketing budget, uh, for
finding your audience.
And it was for us, like I said,for the vast proportion of time
that we've, um, that caffeinehas been in, uh, existence.
(34:33):
So what we do, uh, you, sorry,the original question was, what
have we done?
Right.
Well, yeah, I mean, I thinkthat's what we've done, isn't
it?
We've gone out there and, and,and tried to find
entrepreneurial medics throughus.
We don't, I don't think we needto go into the full details, but
it's like, it's getting that,like you say, service providers
(34:53):
who are helping professionalshaving a system.
Yeah.
To get good leads and lead, youknow, this whole leads word
sometimes makes peopleuncomfortable, but if you've
created a business and you'reoffering a service, you need to
find the people that need theservice.
There are people out there thatneed your product.
Yeah.
And It's about finding thoseindividuals on LinkedIn as
(35:14):
opposed to Google ads or metaads.
Yeah, absolutely.
And there is so, there's so muchterminology around sales that
makes it really scary for peoplewho haven't necessarily had
sales as part of their, um, aspart of their business before.
But if you think of it as thepeople who.
Hopefully you're targetingpeople who would likely work
with you, and then you're hopingto engage and get on the radar
(35:36):
of people who might work withyou at some point in the next
five years.
And then there are the, um, thekind of much smaller number of
people who will be ready toreach, to work with you right
now.
And I think this can be shockingfor people who haven't done
sales and marketing before.
They just assume that they reachout.
You create the thing and theywill flock.
And Oh man, I can't tell you, I,I did marketing at university
(35:58):
and I'm still constantly letdown by the lack of flocking.
So you just like anticipateyou're going to have to build a
long runway in your business interms of outreach.
I was having a conversation theother day with somebody who said
they're a strategist.
They work with really hugecompanies.
Um, and they said, They believeafter the many years in business
(36:18):
that a founder should beserving, spending 70 percent of
their time on marketing andsales, which is petrifying.
You know, for the majority ofthose people that applies to,
they're probably thinking thatthat's not why I started a
business.
That's not why I'm in charge ofthis thing.
And essentially what we've, um,helped to do.
You to set up on LinkedIn, theway that we recommend to most
people, uh, as a starting pointin terms of marketing and
(36:42):
outreach.
So you can start getting on theradar of those potential clients
is, uh, has the ability to beautomated, which is amazing
because it means that yes, youare like, Effort wise, your
business is spending 70 percentof its time doing outreach, but
physically you're not doing anyof it.
You're responding to the peoplewho are genuinely interested in
what you're offering.
(37:02):
Um, it also makes it less scarybecause, you know, even for
somebody who's spent the wholecareer in marketing and sales,
like I still get sweaty when Ipick up the phone to make a cold
call, like no one feels goodabout necessarily doing that
kind of outreach.
So we.
There's a couple of things, notjust automation, because the
automation is doing it on yourbehalf and you're in a
responding to the people you'reinterested, but we also, and the
(37:25):
part we haven't talked abouthere, and we haven't necessarily
done with your business, Joe, iswe create something you're going
to be reaching out with thatyou're really proud to reach out
with, because you know, thatit's genuinely something that
serves the audience, whichbrings us back to that client
listening exercise at thebeginning.
If you've really listened and itdoesn't have to be hard, it's
often called a lead magnet.
(37:45):
I don't know if your audience isfamiliar with that term.
Could be a PDF.
I actually have a book.
Um, don't feel like you have todo a book.
My very first lead magnet wasum, a five email sequence which
was uh, one tip a day for fivedays about how to um, attract
clients to your marketingagency.
It was just that.
It wasn't overwhelming andactually had a much better
(38:07):
success rate than some of thelike, Some of the much longer
things that I've done since.
So create something based onwhat you did when you listened
in, um, that will serve theaudience and reach out to them
and say, Hey, I created thisthing.
I thought based on, you know,your profile, I thought it might
be of interest.
Would you like a copy?
So you're not like hammeringthem with your work.
(38:28):
You're offering something thatis a value to them, which is
another reason that our clientsare proud to get in contact.
Um, And, and yeah, and I thinkthat summarizes it.
I think the, the majority of thepeople that we work with to kind
of give you some context, theyserve their service providers,
they serve professionals in somecapacity, but the things that
(38:49):
unify them is they have feararound sales and new business
and marketing.
They don't have a lot of time.
They don't have a lot of moneyand they don't really have an
idea about where to start.
And that's ultimately who weserve.
This is this kind of LinkedInpractice that we're talking
about.
Yeah.
And we take our clients throughall of those stages, by the way,
defining your audience, buildingyour list, doing the client
(39:12):
listening, building somethingthat will be a value to them.
So building a lead magnet andthen, um, reaching out to people
and then automating it.
And then what you do after thatpoint.
So we take you through thatwhole process.
So if you were in a positionwith your business where it
might even be concept.
you might not even actually havea product or an idea.
You might be looking, lookingfor evidence to leave your job.
(39:35):
Um, then this would also applyfor you.
You can go through all thosesteps and kind of do proof of
concept basically.
Yeah.
Amazing.
Fantastic.
Amazing, amazing, amazing.
And I think there'll be variouspeople at various points on that
journey.
And I think from, for the peoplethat were within my program who
have kind of gone from that,like, medic who's really
(39:55):
struggling to see how they cando anything through to us sort
of collating ideas and bringingtogether and getting out there
and finding that proof ofconcept.
They're often at a positionwhere they've got an audience
that they want to help andthey've often got a lead magnet
that they, that they have put alot of time and effort into it.
And I think for those peoplethen to get out and, and Find
(40:16):
their audience.
But as I've experienced, I'vebeen like, Ooh, is my lead
magnet exactly what I want?
And you find yourself like sortof procrastinating a little bit,
and you've got to believe inyourself enough to get started
with something, even though itmight not be perfect.
And you've mentioned a couple ofthings about, you know, things
like the numbers of people thatyou need to bring into your
audience who might want to get afree thing, who then might want
(40:38):
to get a paid thing and then abigger paid thing.
We could talk for hours, but Ithink.
Um, you know, it's aconversation maybe for us to
have like a follow upconversation and in six months
or so, once we've done this fora bit longer and seeing how it's
going, um, to kind of feedbackwith some results maybe, because
I think there's a lot in thisepisode.
So I think, you know, I know we,I normally ask for advice at the
(41:00):
end, but actually I think we'vedone this the other way around,
we've gone with advice at thebeginning.
I think, I think if I can offerone piece of advice and it just
touching on what you said, seekcompletion, not perfection.
You're never, it's never goingto be perfect.
There are so many things in mybook.
You should see the Asana board,um, between me and my
assistants, which is like allthe things that I want to fix in
the business.
(41:21):
Um, And, or you make shinier orbetter, but if you wait, nothing
will happen.
So imperfect action, startbefore you're ready.
All of those adages, um, thinkless, do more.
These are the keys to beinglike, To kind of getting moving,
(41:41):
a boss once said to me in mysecond day of a job, I was
absolutely petrified.
Um, it was really scary.
It wasn't what I'd anticipated.
And he said, Charlotte, when dowe learn to cycle?
It was like, he wasn't Britishnative.
And so his English was a bit.
Unusual, but he was basicallysaying, when, when do you, when
can you actually begin to kindof cycle and it's like, when you
(42:03):
get your momentum up, when youstart moving, like if you won't
take your feet off the floor andyou won't just continuously
pedal, then you're not actuallygoing to do the thing.
And I, I, at the time I waslike, what the hell is this guy
talking about?
And then in my leaving speech, Iactually kind of said it back.
And it was like, that was thebest bit of advice I think I've
had.
Um, Because you need to dosomething in order to iterate
(42:23):
and improve.
So just start.
Brilliant.
Amazing.
Well, I will link you up in theshow notes.
Everything that you've talkedabout, website, LinkedIn, and
people can just reach out and,and get in touch with you.
If they're interested in findingout more.
Yeah.
Absolutely.
I'd love that.
Okay.
Thank you so much for your time.
Bye bye.
Oh, thanks.
My God.
(42:44):
We could talk all day.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!