November 18, 2025 • 45 mins
🟪 Join 500+ Smart Entrepreneurs ➤ https://www.gabemarusca.com and learn each week for free, how to stop chasing leads, serve clients longer & enjoy freedom doing what you love, without burning out or breaking down.
In this episode, Ivan Wanis Ruiz, author of 'End Boring' and a top-rated Coursera instructor, shares his insights on effective communication. He discusses the importance of simplicity in conveying messages and how simple anecdotes can be more convincing than complex evidence. Gabe's conversation with Ivan dives into real-life tactics for engaging people, breaking the ice at networking events, and improving presentation skills. Ivan emphasizes that effective communication is crucial for gaining a competitive advantage in the future and offers practical exercises to simplify complex ideas. The episode also touches on the emotional aspects of communication and how revealing personal experiences can build trust and open up conversations. Ivan's mission is to end boring presentations and ensure that great ideas do not get lost to yawns.
🟪 Timestamps
(00:00) Introducing Ivan Wanis Ruiz
(02:18) The Brain's Processing of Information
(03:59) The Influence of Anecdotes Over Evidence
(10:00) Exercises to Simplify Communication
(15:37) The Dark Side of Communication Techniques
(21:31) Using Anecdotes in Scientific Communication
(24:02) Connecting Emotionally with Your Audience
(27:44) The Power of Reciprocation
(30:08) Networking Insights
(36:07) The Realities of a Professional Speaker's Life
(41:45) The Importance of Tactics Over Ideas(43:09) Connect with Ivan
🟪 Connect with Ivan Wanis Ruiz
- The End Boring Book: https://books2read.com/u/bPnaR7
- Website: https://publicspeakinglab.com
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/publicspeakinglab/
🟪 Connect with Gabe Marusca
- Website: https://www.gabemarusca.com
- YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@gabemarusca
- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gabemarusca/
- Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gabemarusca/
- X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/gabemarusca
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/maruscagabe/
- TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@gabemarusca
Until Next Week,
Pura Vida!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
An anecdote is not evidence, butit is more convincing than
evidence. I'm here with Ivan and According
to him BIOS are boring. So here are some fun facts is
that he's the author of the Amazon bestseller and boring A
Tactical approach to Communication.
He's a top rated instructor on Coursera with over 200,000
(00:22):
global students. He was the official host for the
FIFA World Cup, Olympics, Invictus Games and Cannon games.
He's committed to end all the presentation so great ideas
don't get lost to Youngs. When he's not teaching, he's a
professional Sansa dancer. The millions around the world
listening to us right now. Every single one of you.
(00:42):
The secret to getting people to open up is not giving them
information. It is revealing information
about yourself that's going to get people to open up.
And in this conversation, Ivan share real life tactics on how
to communicate with clarity without sounding boring, how to
break the ice in those networking events, and any other
insights that you can apply right away into your
(01:04):
communication toolbox. Hey, communication is the
competitive advantage of the future.
Ivan, simple lies. Tell me more about that.
One of the things that I struggle with in trying to
communicate in my world of like I'm trying to teach people who
are very smart, spend all their time doing research.
(01:24):
Why no one listens to them but some dude in his car who went on
Google for like an hour be like hey listen man I know the world
is flat. Why do they get 1000 people
watching them and one person listens to the person who spent
their whole life? It's because whether you like it
or not, simplicity rules. And do you know why?
(01:48):
Why let? Me.
Throw that to you, Gabe. Why do you think simplicity
wins? I believe because anyone, almost
everyone can understand simple things rather than complex
topics or when you would try to say something in a code on code
smart way. Now let me go a little bit
deeper with that, because sayinglike simplicity is better.
(02:09):
Like there's not a person listening was like, yeah, of
course it is. Like, no duh, but let's go to a
deeper level to understand why simplicity is better.
You know, when I was researchingcommunication, I really wanted
to do a lot of research into howthe brain has evolved to process
information. And here's the underlining core.
When something is easy, you knowhow to feel about it.
(02:33):
Remember that so much decision making is not just high order
frontal lobe cognitive reasoning.
There's a big chunk of decision making that's back here that's
emotional centers. When an idea is simple, it is
easy for you to feel a certain way, which means it is easy for
(02:53):
you to form an opinion And let'sgo a deeper level.
The person who's sitting you sitting in their car telling you
why climate change doesn't exist, even though they're like
just some dude on Instagram. Whereas oh, here's 50,000
scientists who have dedicated their life to this and you don't
listen to them, you listen to the dude.
(03:14):
Why? Because when they give you a
simple message, you can form an opinion on it and they already
have an opinion. A lot of times people will just
tell me how you really feel about it if you do a lot of
research. Here's how.
Here's the difference in communication.
Con artist, Someone selling you a pyramid schemes.
(03:35):
Cult leaders speak in absolutes,they speak in definitive, they
give you yes or no simple. Now you know how to feel about
it. What if someone who has a lot of
knowledge do well according to kind of the best information we
can suggest that there is the potential.
You see the difference? Well, what do you mean?
(03:58):
So yes or no? At the end of the day, we all
want to have these kind of very simple answers.
Because here's another thing, mylistening audience Gabe, do you
read? Yes.
Wrong. Incorrect.
No, you do not, my friend. I know.
Here's the truth. OK?
Here's the truth. OK?
If you think about how long we've existed as a as a species,
(04:22):
Homo sapien, Millions of years. How long have we been reading?
Fraction. Small fraction, probably either
under 1%. 10,000 years ago. So you're right in the scheme of
things, millions of years versus10,000 years, evolutionarily,
that's not a lot of time, which means that if you think about
(04:44):
it, the brain has not had enoughtime to fully evolve to reading.
So you don't actually read, my friend.
And I'm going to prove it to you, OK?
I'm going to prove it to you. If you, I want you to look in
the title and everyone who's listening, I want you to do this
right now. Just look at something that has
writing on it. OK?
What did you just see? Tell me, Gabe, what did you just
(05:05):
see? Anything on your screen?
Authority in the Wild episode recording.
There it is. I guarantee that this did not
happen. You didn't go a UTHORITY
authority space IN that's N. You didn't do that.
You saw it, and you saw authority in the wild as one
(05:26):
solid image because here's what happened.
Reading requires a lot of high like a lot of resources.
If you look at the research, themore you read, the more
resources you use. Which is why reading makes you
sleepy and tired, and you do it to relax.
How I know? Now you know and knowing it's
half the battle, anyone from theWestern world who's over 40 gets
(05:47):
that joke and knowing it's half the battle.
So what happens is this, Your mind essentially creates a
schema, which is a hierarchy of information.
It's a mental shortcut where it looks at authority in the wild
and instead of trying to processeach letter, it sees it as one
image and it says to your brain,OK, we've already seen all those
(06:08):
letters in that combination. We're 99% sure it says authority
in the wild and it works most ofthe time.
That's why when for example you see a common word by the letter
I messed up by the beginning andthe end are same, you can read
it without even realizing it's messed up.
Or have you ever seen those little things?
And I do this in my workshops where it says you read that
(06:29):
wrong. Yeah.
And you're like, what? And then, Oh yeah, I did read it
wrong. And it gets you every time
because you didn't read it. Your brain saw that combination
and said we are 99% sure this iswhat it says.
To read it requires a lot more resources.
So when we think about the worldof communication, and I'll just
finish with this, the simple liebeats the complex truth.
(06:51):
Another big reason is a simple lie is easier to process.
A complex truth requires higher order cognitive functions.
It requires you to think outsideof the schemas that are your
day-to-day, and therefore because it requires more effort,
you are less likely to do it. Exactly.
And we love shortcuts. We love comforts.
(07:12):
Yeah. And I will give you some like a
couple of shocking examples if you'd like.
Absolutely. OK, when people have a cold,
what's the one vitamin they always have to take?
They should take lots of vitaminC.
Vitamin C? There is no definitive evidence
(07:33):
over the past 50 years that vitamin C has any practical
impact on colds. None.
Some say a little bit, but it's not significant and it's not
replicated. Most say it seems to do no
better or worse than doing nothing.
Yet why do we all think vitamin C works?
Because a gentleman named minus Pauling, who was a two time
(07:58):
Nobel Prize winner in the 19, late 60s, early 70s before he
died, started thinking, you knowwhat, I think large doses of
vitamin C and vitamins can solveany cold, any bacterial
infection. He never really tested it.
It was a hypothesis. But because he was so prominent
and he spoke with such surety, people started jumping onto that
(08:20):
bandwagon and doing it. To this day, we think vitamin C
has some sort of an impact on your cold.
And I think SIM apply for toothpaste if I'm not wrong.
And there are a bunch of other examples out there that this
simple lies were told to us and you start to believe it because.
You start to believe it. And then let me, let me.
(08:42):
Let's go real deep. Let's go real deep, Gabe.
Let's get real nerdy. In 1984, the famous book, You
know, the famous book, 1984. Yeah, the main antagonist in the
book says a lie repeated enough slowly becomes the truth.
Linus Pauling was such a powerful figure, and he didn't
mean to lie. He just thought it.
He just never proved it, that everyone started repeating it
(09:05):
and now all of a sudden it's thetruth.
So our brain love shortcuts, we are emotional beings and still a
lot of us that dedicate our lifeinto becoming expert into
something we struggle to simplify our positioning to
(09:26):
simplify the way you communicates how we can get
better. Yeah, it's a very good question,
right? If simplicity rules all, how can
we get better when we spent our lives and we can't?
It's like it's not a simple concept.
So to ask me to explain it simply is unfair, right?
Because that's what a lot of experts and scientists would
(09:47):
say, you know, ask someone to explain relatively simply to me.
Be like, that's not a simple concept and it's over, you know,
100 years of iterative evidence.I can't just explain it to you
simply. That is the challenge.
So let's give a couple of exercises for your listening
audience. How can you do this better?
And let me start off by talking about the IG no bells.
(10:08):
You know what the IG no bells are?
Nope. No, the IG no bells are
celebrated at Harvard every yearand they are a celebration of
science that first makes you laugh, but then makes you think
it's like legitimate good science.
It's at Harvard. The real Nobel Prize winners are
(10:30):
usually in attendance and they give you your IG Nobel Prize.
So I'll give you an example of one of the of the silly science.
It's real, it's good science. The many years ago, over 10
years ago, one of the IG Nobel Prize winners won the IG Nobel
because they did a bunch of research into why woodpeckers
don't get headaches. It's ridiculous, but it was
legitimate science. Another one did a research study
(10:53):
on how roller coasters and theirimpact on Constipation real
science, and they win prizes forthis.
It's very silly. Part of the IG Nobel's is the
24/7 challenge where you have totake an idea and give a
technical explanation in 24 seconds and then a seven word
summary in a way that anyone canunderstand.
(11:16):
Now for all my listening audience who has to communicate
complex ideas, here's how you practice.
If you ever have to present and you're struggling to make
something simple, you do this exercise.
Number one, do your presentationand time it #2 cut that time in
half and cover all the importantpoints again #3 cut that time in
(11:40):
half and see what's important. Cover all the important points
again. Do it until you can do it in a
minute. If I do a 10 minute
presentation, I'm going to try do it in five.
Everything that I cut out of that to make it 5 minutes was
unimportant. Then I do it in 2 minutes.
Same thing is going to happen. Then I do it in one minute and
all of a sudden I'm at the core of what I want to talk about.
(12:02):
Then I summarize it in one sentence and if you can't say it
in that one sentence, it means acouple of things.
Number one, you don't know things as well as you think you
do #2 the scope of what you're trying to say is too large.
Number three, you're trying to make people experts instead of
making them curious. Because the goal of a really
(12:24):
good presentation is not information.
What are you going to tell me in10 minutes that's going to make
me an expert? Nothing.
Nothing in an hour, nothing in asemester.
But Gabe, if I can make you curious.
You learn it yourself. You're going to spend more of
your time doing stuff. Yeah.
Gabe, have you ever been on YouTube?
And you go down the YouTube rabbit hole where you learn some
(12:48):
random thing and then before youknow it, it's like 2 hours
later? Yeah.
And you're like, I got to get tobed.
I got to finish this work. Yeah.
That's because you got curious. And the master Youtubers.
Yeah, the master Youtubers make you curious.
Exactly. And if I'm a, let's suppose I'm
doing an update on a database design for a back end medical
(13:10):
processing system for GPS, very technical, I'm just making this
up. I have 10 minutes and I want to
make sure I want to go through everything I want to cover.
Well, that's a waste of time because no one's going to
remember it. Everyone's going to say, I'll
just get the slide deck later instead.
What if you changed your focus to, you know what?
I'm just going to give them one or two things that's going to
(13:32):
make them curious so that they want to see my slide deck later.
And that's how you turn an audience into someone that is
evolved and active into learningby yourself or asking more
questions or actually start working with you.
And I think for those that runs a business, the struggle to send
(13:55):
their message across and let's make it even more specific.
Like if someone is running, for example, workshops as a way of
attracting leads to the business.
And we live in the world that weknow in which to sit for 45
minutes to listen to some presenting, some that you know
they're going to pitch you something on work.
(14:17):
So it's possible to invite an audience to a workshop, keep
them there for maximum 15 minutes.
And at the end of those 15 minutes, those individuals to be
so curious to learn more about how you can help them to raise
their hands and to like take my money.
(14:39):
Sure. I mean, there's a lot of a scam
artists that do that and you youhave to study what they do and
then use it for good. All these people that come and
see my one my come to my free one hour seminar.
Well, that seminar is basically just a sales pitch.
And what they do is they create curiosity by showing you all the
(15:01):
problems and the solutions, but not the in between.
If I tell you the problem and then I tell you the solution,
the outcome, and I say it's possible to go from here to
here, but I don't tell you how. Well, now I got you.
Because they usually tell the why the what, but the how it's
(15:24):
always missing. The how is missing and that's so
that you sign up for their course and you have to
understand that that it doesn't matter whether you agree or
disagree. And that's a big thing that I
try and tell people. I do a lot of research into what
I call the dark side of communication.
So I study cult leaders and conman and all the multi level
(15:46):
marketing pyramid schemes. I watch those conferences and
I'm trying to use what they're doing because it works really
well. Could you imagine, Gabe, imagine
between us if the smartest people in the world were as good
as, like, pyramid scheme founders?
Dude, we'd be, we'd be living onNeptune.
(16:07):
The world would be amazing, yeah.
And how make it use for good rather than tricking someone to
believe that oh, at the end of this workshop they will get the
actual solution, How do we also stay true to ourself?
Share what exactly they're getting actually or or or how's
your take on it? Because we have different
(16:28):
perspective well. One of the big things that I try
and tell people who take my courses and is what you have to
understand is this. There's a three-step that I try
and talk to people about how people process information.
You make them curious, you make them care, and then you give
them the content. The difficulty is most people
(16:50):
flip that around and focus only on content, and they're hoping
their content are going to make people curious and care.
So people who are really honest scientists, they focus on the
content, the information, the logistics.
Con men are like Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, curious and carry
emotional appeal, emotional appeal, emotional appeal.
And here's a really good exampleof this.
OK. And then we'll talk about how we
(17:11):
use it. Gabe, do you ever watch fitness
videos on YouTube? And look at me, I did this new
fitness process and now I have asix pack where I tried this new
workout. And look at me, I'm jacked, you
know? Yeah, unfortunately.
Super motivating. And every time you're like, you
know what, maybe I should buy this pro.
You're like, there's a part of you, even when they say gay,
(17:32):
even when they say not typical results.
And you know, up here in your brain, you know, this is not
typical results, yet it still gets you.
Why? Because and this is going to
translate into a strategy. They focus on the anecdote, an
example, and that's usually moreconvincing than the information
(17:55):
because an example, an anecdote is going to make people care.
And here is one of the truest things you'll ever hear, and
it's what every con man does. It's what every pyramid scheme
person does. They focus on the anecdote.
I met a guy, he did this, and now he's a millionaire.
I met this person, they did this, and now they have a six
pack. They focus on the anecdote.
(18:15):
And here's the truth. Here's a fundamental truth about
people. An anecdote is not evidence.
It's not evidence, but it is more convincing than evidence.
And if you understand that, here's how you use it to your
advantage. Comparing to the actual
evidence. Yeah, well, let's go back to it.
(18:37):
What is simpler? My personal story about when I
did this and now I have a six pack or let me go in depth about
calorie consumption, exercise, the research behind these
things. What do you think would be
simpler to understand? Obviously the first one.
Yeah, the example the my personal experience.
In a way that's evidence as well, right?
(18:58):
Like for example if you. No, it's not.
A personal experience is not evidence.
No, personal experience is not evidence.
But. Not personal.
For example, even if you have like a batch of 1000 individuals
that are apply the same methods of let's say getting.
But that is not a personal experience, is it?
That's not an anecdote. Now we're that.
(19:19):
Now we're getting into information, but even that, that
is evidence, but it's not an anecdote.
Most people will never look at that study.
You know what they'll listen to?Listen buddy, I've, I've read
the studies and I can tell you and then I'll give you my
anecdote. That's what people will listen
to. That's why the person and let's,
(19:40):
let's bring it full circle. That's why the person in their
car who has no background in Physiology will tell you some
workout thing and you'll buy into it or we'll, we'll, we'll
reference one thing they heard Linus Pauling said, vitamin C.
And that's usually all it takes to convince people it.
And again, it doesn't matter if you agree or not.
(20:03):
Every single person listening tous right now, Gabe, the millions
around the world listening to usright now, every single one of
you has tried a food that someone else said it was
healthy. So you tried it even though you
didn't know why. People who drink coconut water,
kale, electrolytes, ask them what is what, why is it good?
(20:25):
They have no idea. But some person said it once and
so they bought into it. If you understand this, and I
know people fight me on this allthe time, but Gabe, forget
politicians and experts and coaches.
Forget all those people. The truly convincing people in
this world are almost always like for the bag.
(20:49):
Like if you again, I go back to this, think about a cult leader.
Forget someone, a salesperson. I work in sales and marketing.
I know about persuasion. No, you don't.
I convinced 10,000 people aroundthe world to put my initials as
a brand on their ass. That's a persuasive person.
That was the Nexium guy, by the way.
And if you if you understand thepower of anecdotal evidence,
(21:13):
even though it's not right, eventhough it's not, it's not the
best way to make decisions because it is a simple statement
that you can form an opinion about.
It is more likely to convince people than the information
because the opinion will make people curious and make people
care. All right.
So in that situation, even if werely on these techniques as an
(21:37):
ethical individual, in your opinion we should still use it
because it works. Yes, 100% because, and I'll give
you a really good example, climate change, OK, there is no
debate about climate change, none within the scientific
community. It's like 99.9% of everyone who
studies climate change all agree.
(21:58):
The people who disagree are not people who are experts in
climate change. They're almost never.
And they're almost like the few people that might be considered
experts or even remotely in thatfield are like maybe 5 people
who are for some reason have allthis money from like, you know,
BT gas and you. This is not my opinion.
(22:18):
This is you can just, it's a fact.
This is a fact. Yet there's people who are
listening who probably disagree with me.
They think that maybe it's not as clear why.
Because the people who are telling you there's no climate
change are better at communicating then the 10,000
scientists around the world. Why?
(22:41):
These people are not just using information, they're using
anecdotes and emotional appeals.These people are just using
information. You know what nobody cares
about? And this happened about six
months. It's happened several times in
the past 10 years. 10,000 environmental sign, A sign, a
letter saying the climate changeis about to really affect human
(23:02):
society. Nobody gave a fuck.
Nobody cared. Listen, it's not that cold
outside. Hey, listen.
Hey, buddy, listen. I've done the research, OK?
I've looked at all the studies. I did my research, OK.
And I can tell you, if you really look at the research just
like I did, this is something that happens irrespective of
people. And we're going to be fine,
(23:24):
dude. You know, you've heard this,
you've heard this. So let me just finish this again
and let me just finish it. Here's what everyone needs to
do. If I'm a client scientist, OK,
If and I, this is just an example, OK?
But if I'm a client scientist and I know the information, I
have to start throwing in anecdotes with my information.
(23:44):
That's all. That's all you have to do.
And they don't do it because an anecdote is not evidence.
So people who know the evidence will focus on the evidence.
But if you want to be smart, yougive me the anecdote before and
after the evidence. And the evidence needs to be
simple. So you have to use these
tactics. And let's dive into emotional
part because almost everyone I speak to asked me like, how
(24:09):
should I know what's either my audience or my prospecting
clients or whoever feel? How to make them feel, how to
make them truly connect with themessage that they want to put
out there? Sure.
Yeah. Well, let's do a total pivot
change and let's talk about a different tactic, OK.
(24:32):
Most of us when we are focusing on sales or we're trying to
convince and we want to figure out what our clients are
feeling, we'll probably do more talking than our client.
And then here's another counterintuitive point.
We will ask open-ended questionsto get opinions, but that rarely
works. I'm not saying it's the it's
(24:53):
because you have to add a few other pieces to it.
So let me give you an example. If I give you a bunch of
information about like say the qualities of, I don't know, what
are you into Gabe? What do you do for fun?
Recording this podcast. Come on, give me something else.
Yeah, anything you want, give mesomething else.
Hiking Clinton Nature. Sure.
OK, so let's suppose I'm trying to sell you on coming to a
(25:14):
resort and I go through my pitch.
If I look at the resort, look how beautiful it is.
How's that? And I say, so how do you feel
about that? You would be like good like you.
You probably struggle for a lot like I don't know.
So it depends. Yeah, I can see you.
Yeah, it depends. You'd be like, I don't know, I
guess good. And you'd be very hesitant to
say you like it because, you know, I'm trying to sell you on
(25:35):
something. So that is doesn't work.
And then what will I do? I'll give you I'll talk more.
So the secret? To finding out what people feel
is getting them to talk more. But how do you do that, Yvonne?
You just said if I ask open sequences it open-ended
questions, it doesn't work. So what are you saying Yvonne?
Well, here's what you do #1 you get people to commit.
(25:57):
This is like a process through closed ended questions.
And this is what a lot of a pyramid scheme people do.
And again, I'm not saying it's good, I'm just saying this is
like tried and true methodologies.
You got to use the dark side forthe good.
So you ask a series of closed ended questions, yes or no
questions this or that. You give choice.
If you had to choose between this and this, what would you
(26:18):
choose? Just out of curiosity, you know
what I mean? As they start revealing
information, then you follow up with open-ended questions.
So I would do something like this, Like if I say like, if I
make it too closed ended and tooobvious, you're going to see it.
So if I say, Gabe, if you say you like hiking, wouldn't you
like to enjoy more hiking in your life?
Yes. You you can see that's yeah, but
(26:40):
that's so obviously me trying tolike coerce you.
And I would say like, but what if I did this?
And I say so, Gabe, if you had to choose, would you like a
short uphill or would you like aflat plane as a hike but like
way longer, maybe something in the middle?
So you like, you like a little bit of it.
So you like a little bit of exercise, but you also want to
(27:02):
chill. Exactly, Yeah.
Well then what's what would be agood time like?
What's the length of time you'relooking for, if you don't mind
me asking? 3-4 hours maybe?
Yeah, and you see how you're struggling to kind of like, what
is the time? So #1 by giving you options,
it's a closed end of question. I now have a direction, I have
something, you're giving me stuff #2 and here's how we go
(27:25):
next level even higher up to getreally find out what people are
thinking. Let's redo that scenario again
instead of saying so like, how long do you like to hike for?
OK, instead of me asking, because the truth is this, the
more questions I asked you, the more hesitant you are to answer
them because it's one way. Yeah, So I would do this.
So personally gave honestly, a hike for me is 30 minutes.
(27:49):
Like legit, if it's more than 30minutes, I'm like, why are we
doing it? This is boring walking for no
reason. What's the ideal time for you?
I'd love to hike. Yeah, I'll hike for half a day.
So that's for full days because it energized me and.
What is how much more of a sincere answer that was versus 3
to 4 hours? Yeah, exactly.
(28:10):
Now you're telling me how you feel.
So what did I do, Gabe? You tell me.
What did I do? What was different from the
first time to the second time? Tell me.
You allow me to answer openly rather than just force me to
choose a numeric time, or just between two options and so on.
I did something else and it's solittle that most people never
(28:33):
notice it. And I do this all the time to
get people to open up. Can you spot it?
So for as you mention about you not being too connected with
this activity and then you throwthe ball at me to share more
about something that you know already that I love doing.
(28:54):
You got a game I told, I revealed information so that you
were more open to reveal something back.
Reciprocation is how you find out more and more.
When I've asked you the first time, I'm like, how long do you
like to hike for? You Like I don't know.
Like in your head you're probably like, I don't know man,
why you even ask me this? I don't care, right?
The second time I said I'm 1/2 hour or less in your head.
(29:18):
Right away you formed the opinion you're like, that's
nothing. And then I said, so how about
you? Oh me, I could do half.
Then you started just talking. So the secret to getting people
to open up is not giving them information.
It is revealing information about yourself that's going to
get people to open up. That's what very interesting
because I'm thinking out throughthis exercise and even that you
(29:39):
are role-playing. It came so naturally for me to
open up more when you ask that last question.
And yes, simply because I immediately, yes, judge you a
bit. And secondly, I was like, Oh
yeah, I can do way more than that comparison.
Kim's in as well and feeling different sort of emotions and
(30:00):
even without realizing because at the end of the day I didn't
realize that. Can I give you a Yeah, and this
is, and I do this all the time. And here's an experiment.
OK, Here's an experiment that anyone listening can try.
OK. Sometimes when you meet people
for the first time, you'll say, So what part of town do you live
in? Where do you live?
It's a pretty common question. If I don't know, you gave and
(30:22):
I'm like, So what part of town do you live in?
Anyone who's taking an Uber and the person starts asking you
questions, you're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I don't want to answer any of your questions.
So I do an experiment and I invite you to try this.
Everyone listening, try this. OK, First, when you meet people
for the first time and go to a networking event and just So
what part of town do you live in?
Where do you live? And you'll notice they'll be a
(30:43):
little bit like, yeah, I live. And they'll give you a very big
general answer because you don'twant to tell people that because
it's one sided. It's me asking a question.
It's an interrogation. But, and this is what I do.
Here's the other experiment. You tell people where you live
and then ask them where they live.
So if I'm in Toronto, which is where I am at the moment, I
(31:05):
would say, oh, I live in the annex.
How about you? Most people would just be like,
oh, I live over it. They'll just right away.
They won't even hesitate. They'll be like, oh, I live over
here. Oh, I live far.
Like they'll tell you everythingbecause when you reveal
something, it builds trust. When you reveal something,
reciprocation kicks in. Does that make sense?
Perfect sense. And I was immediately thinking
(31:26):
about something that I used to struggle with, luckily not so
much now, which is networking, especially in an environment
where I don't know anyone. I know that a lot of people
listening. Yeah, they are.
Networking is part of being a business owner.
And apart from this, if you are not networking in your city or
(31:48):
in a familiar environment, what would be so open revealing
things about you that you can share that anyone will
immediately connect and was likestart talking about them so.
It's a very good question. How can we break the ice with
people? How can you share something
about yourself that's going to be interesting for the other
person? And believe it or not,
(32:09):
ironically, the less interestingthe better.
Yeah, the more interesting it isyou put people in the fence and
they were like, I cannot raise these expectations right now.
Exactly. And it also looks like you're
trying too hard if you try and you really.
So here's the truth. If you want to break the ice,
you have to reveal something when you meet people.
(32:31):
And the best things to reveal are simple, low stake things
that have nothing to do with work because people can.
It's a simple thing against simplicity.
I can feel a certain way about it, but also I can relate to it.
If we meet for the first time and I tell you, yeah, I'm going
to go salsa dancing later might be interesting, but you probably
(32:53):
can't relate to it very much. Oh, I'm going to go do my
gymnastics class. Cool.
I have. I have.
No, I have nothing to add to that.
It might work because it makes you curious, but a much more
powerful thing as you talk aboutuse this phrase.
And I'm going to do this with you right now, Gabe.
OK? What is a simple kind of low
(33:15):
stakes thing that you're lookingforward to doing this afternoon,
tomorrow or this weekend? Give me a couple of different
things. Make them simple.
You're going to watch the certain TV show.
You're going to go out for dinner.
You're meeting a friend for coffee.
You're making spaghetti. You're going to do arm day of
the gym. Give anything simple.
(33:37):
Yes, hitting the gym, spending time with friends, spending time
on my life, going outside, all in general.
Will be much more. You're not looking forward to
spending more time with friends.You're looking forward to seeing
your cousin or your two friends for dinner tomorrow.
Be much more specific again. Going out Friday evening to meet
my close friends or restaurant at the restaurant next to the
(34:02):
beach or or something. OK, now we're good.
So here's another powerful tool,a powerful concept.
Remember when I said anecdotes aren't evidence, but they're
more convincing than evidence? Here's another one.
Specifics beat generalities. Specifics are more interesting,
convincing, and engaging than generalities, which is why
(34:23):
anecdotes work, because it's very specific.
So if you say, you know what, I'm looking forward to a Friday
night dinner with friends, that's about as good.
That's good. If you say pretty good.
The wife and I are going out fordinner after this.
How about you see then if you said if you said like.
And here's how we would do it. Suppose I'm gay.
You are now Yvonne, role reversal.
(34:45):
OK. And you say, hey, Gabe, how are
you? Like we're meeting for the first
time, for example. And I'm like, good, good.
I actually going to go for dinner with the wife after this.
How about you? I reveal that you don't think
you're going to say, oh, you're married or where you're going or
that sounds fun. Is there any right away at least
a bunch of little conversations.If you say, Gabe, how are you?
(35:05):
Pretty good hitting the gym after this.
How about you? You don't think I'm going to say
like, oh, my opinion. Oh, I should go to the gym.
Oh, I just went, oh, what are you working out?
What do you do? Like it can lead to a bunch of
conversation. You say, hey, Gabe, how's it
going? How are you?
Pretty good. But going out for dinner with
friends on Friday. So looking forward to that.
How are you doing? Oh, really?
Is there any right away? We goes into conversation.
So when you're meeting people for the first time, have 3 or 4
(35:28):
very simple things in your back pocket that you can use.
Can I, can I, before you say anything else, Kate, can I
highlight something? Can I put the mirror up in front
of us? Did you notice how quickly you
and I got into a very interesting conversation about
like, where we living and all that kind of stuff?
Yeah, exactly. You didn't even note.
You didn't even notice it. For the listening audience, this
is before we were recording. We talked for maybe 10 minutes
(35:49):
actually about like our mutual lifestyle because I revealed
something right away. Yeah, correct.
And does it seem right? Especially when you are in a
networking event, you have so many simple small things you can
rely to and immediately people will connect with that and and
so on. And Speaking of lifestyle and
(36:11):
being a keynote speaker and public speaker and expert and
traveling so much, being a nomads to what does it really
feel to be living this lifestyle?
Yeah, it's a great question because so many people try and
sell this lifestyle as a professional speaker, travel the
world, and it's fun, but there'sa bunch of realities that people
(36:33):
I think don't realize, you know?So let me first preface.
But I'm one of the lucky people in this world that I get paid to
like, talk, you know, and I loveit.
And it, you know, I could be working in a coal mine or as an
accountant. And I'm so thankful that I have
the privilege to do this very kind of fun job.
There's three elements that no one talks about when you're a
(36:53):
professional speaker. What is that?
Travel sucks. Travel takes a day where you're
completely unproductive. There's nothing glamour.
And listen, I do the business travel I've seen, I do the
lounges and everything like that.
But it's not a glamorous thing because it's hours out of your
day in lines and waiting and in discomfort #2 yes, you get to
(37:18):
travel, but you don't necessarily enjoy it for two
reasons. One, you're usually only there
for a couple of days. And two, you're usually alone.
Like for, I'll give you a reallygood example.
You know, it's an underrated city, Pittsburgh.
If anyone's listening from Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh is a
great city. It's beautiful.
(37:39):
It's green, there's bridges, there's water.
It's a, it was a really nice city, you know, and I was like,
this is a great town. I was there for a conference for
three days. I spent most of my time when I
wasn't doing my presentations and training just kind of
walking around by myself, which was cool.
But over the years that wears onyou a little bit because you're
always alone. And I was only there for three
(37:59):
days. So I thought rush, rush, rush if
I wanted to do anything. And then the last part I'm kind
of hinted at is it is a very lonely lifestyle because if you
are always traveling for work, what kind of relationships are
you making? If you're never anywhere for
more than a couple of days, how many people are you meeting?
Yeah, it's true. I know it well and that's I love
(38:21):
what you how you portray this because people need to be aware
and those guru selling lifestylelike this and working from the
beach and just traveling all thetime, exactly like behind the
scenes. It's a lot of work behind the
scenes are lonely evenings or like walking alone like you
mentioned and so on. And well has its perks because
(38:45):
it's a reason why you do it. But people need to consider when
choosing career, for example. And Speaking of why you do it,
that's the question. Why are you doing it?
You know, I burnt out of like a bunch of different.
Careers. I was in sales, in
pharmaceutical sales, I work in finance, I was an accountant, I
was a personal assistant. I did not fit into any of those
(39:06):
roles and I burnt out of them. But when I was, and that was
like 5 years of my life trying to find a career in my mid 20s.
And for some reason, you know, Ijust seem to the one that was
always a little bit better at like, oh, we have to do a
presentation. Yvonne will do it.
I was that, that just seemed to be the place where I seem to
stand out a little bit. And so after failing out of all
(39:26):
these careers and getting close to 30 and having a bit of a
midlife crisis, I was like, you know what, why don't I try and
do the speaking thing as a, as ajob?
I wonder if I could do that. And the reason I do it is
because honestly, man, it's likeI get really worked up a lot
because it's I love it every time I'm tired.
And here's the here's the, the litmus test, the test for
(39:48):
anyone. If you here's how you know you
have something. Gabe, I'm going to be real with
you. Before this interview started, I
was feeling a little sleepy, a little tired.
I wasn't like very engaged, right?
But you get me talking about stuff I like and I can't help
it. I could talk forever.
And in our conversation, I've really enjoyed it.
It energizes me. I get energized when I talk and
(40:09):
I've done so many keynotes whereit's like right before the
keynote, I'm like, why do I do this?
I'm exhausted. I don't want to do this.
I hate this. And then I get started talking
about this stuff and I like my energy goes through the roof and
I get so much satisfaction from it.
Like I I'm on a mission, man. I want to see I'm getting worked
out. I always get worked.
I'm on a mission to end. Boring we are boring
(40:33):
conversation, boring meetings, boring presentations because
stuff that you and I can get on our own time.
Engagement is what we need to focus on.
I get so much satisfaction not from me engaging people, but
from getting because it might might.
I'm very interactive. So when I get people up in front
(40:54):
of everyone who have who've onlybeen practicing for 10 minutes
and they get engagement, I'm like, yes, now you and I are
ending boring together. That's why I do it.
Love, love the answer and. I think when you're so
passionate about your work, it'sso simple to get this energy
that you're showing and to anyone listening, like just do
(41:18):
stuff you love. I know it's cliche, I know it's,
I don't know, find your passion and so on.
But in reality, that's it. Like if you find your passion,
if you you work out, you're doing, it's fun, it won't be
boring. And Speaking of that, like why
people should get your book, which is called and boring it
is. Yeah.
Thanks for that plug. Very good segue by the way, Gabe
(41:41):
Bravo, good segue on that. I think there's enough ideas in
the world. You can watch 1000 YouTube
videos with 1000 people who tellyou about the secrets of
communication, the secrets, the art of public speaking.
None of them really do it. They just talk about what they
research and they just do it in front of a Ted talk.
But none of them can be like, gotalk to these engineers about
engineering. You know what I'm saying?
(42:02):
It's just ideas. This book is only tactics.
Forget ideas. I don't say you need to engage
your audience. I say here's 5 different
sentence structures that you canuse to make A1 sentence summary
to engage your audience. I don't say it's important to
have good non verbal communication.
Vary your arm movements. I don't say that.
(42:23):
I say here's 5 different exercises for how to vary arm
movements for your physical flow.
Practice them. So that's my biggest pitch.
It's not a book with ideas, it'sa book with tactics.
And in my honest opinion. That book should be about
because yes, we can just ask whatever JDPT and so on to get
the information, but tactics that actually someone else apply
(42:48):
into their own life, business and so on.
It's what works because all the other things are just yeah,
fluff. And in today's world where
Speaking of AI, it's all around us not being boring and being
entertaining and knowing how to communicate is more important
than ever. And with that in mind, what do
(43:11):
we want? Piece of advice that you tell
someone that even after they listen to this conversation,
they still don't see a way forward to stop being boring,
right? Reach.
Reach out to me. It takes me a little while, but
my door is open to everyone. I have people and students from
(43:32):
10 years ago who write me. Yvonne, I'm struggling.
How do I make this interesting? Write me and I'll show you.
I'm also going to be developing a course.
So almost everything I do is notfor the public.
And so I've been over the past 15 years, everything I do is
company. I go into the company.
So nothing I I do is public. But over the last year or two,
I've been convinced to try and create something for the public.
(43:53):
But in the meantime, if you struggle with it and you need
some tactics for your specific world, send me a message on
Instagram and I promise to replyto you.
Perfect. Thank you so much for that and.
The links will be down below both to Ivan's book and link to
his Instagram account to be downbelow.
Make sure to get in touch with him.
And Ken, thank you enough for taking time to join me today is
(44:17):
I truly believe that when we solve communication, we create a
better world around us and we need this.
We need this because as I say, like it's so much love, so much
AI, you don't know what to believe.
And when real humans talk to others is where connection
happens, deals happens, relationship happens.
(44:39):
And that's what we need, and I'll tell you.
Communication is a competitive advantage of the future.
Exactly. Exactly, if you struggle to
stand out, learn how to communicate.
Thank you Gabe. It's been a lot of fun.
If. Anybody wants to reach me just
find me on Instagram Public speaking lab.
Awesome. Thank you so much for listening.
And on to the next one, Pura Vida.
An anecdote is not evidence, butit is more convincing than
evidence. I'm here with Ivan and According
to him BIOS are boring. So here are some fun facts is
that he's the author of the Amazon bestseller and boring A
Tactical approach to Communication.
He's a top rated instructor on Coursera with over 200,000
(00:22):
global students. He was the official host for the
FIFA World Cup, Olympics, Invictus Games and Cannon games.
He's committed to end all the presentation so great ideas
don't get lost to Youngs. When he's not teaching, he's a
professional Sansa dancer. The millions around the world
listening to us right now. Every single one of you.
(00:42):
The secret to getting people to open up is not giving them
information. It is revealing information
about yourself that's going to get people to open up.
And in this conversation, Ivan share real life tactics on how
to communicate with clarity without sounding boring, how to
break the ice in those networking events, and any other
insights that you can apply right away into your
(01:04):
communication toolbox. Hey, communication is the
competitive advantage of the future.
Ivan, simple lies. Tell me more about that.
One of the things that I struggle with in trying to
communicate in my world of like I'm trying to teach people who
are very smart, spend all their time doing research.
(01:24):
Why no one listens to them but some dude in his car who went on
Google for like an hour be like hey listen man I know the world
is flat. Why do they get 1000 people
watching them and one person listens to the person who spent
their whole life? It's because whether you like it
or not, simplicity rules. And do you know why?
(01:48):
Why let? Me.
Throw that to you, Gabe. Why do you think simplicity
wins? I believe because anyone, almost
everyone can understand simple things rather than complex
topics or when you would try to say something in a code on code
smart way. Now let me go a little bit
deeper with that, because sayinglike simplicity is better.
(02:09):
Like there's not a person listening was like, yeah, of
course it is. Like, no duh, but let's go to a
deeper level to understand why simplicity is better.
You know, when I was researchingcommunication, I really wanted
to do a lot of research into howthe brain has evolved to process
information. And here's the underlining core.
When something is easy, you knowhow to feel about it.
(02:33):
Remember that so much decision making is not just high order
frontal lobe cognitive reasoning.
There's a big chunk of decision making that's back here that's
emotional centers. When an idea is simple, it is
easy for you to feel a certain way, which means it is easy for
(02:53):
you to form an opinion And let'sgo a deeper level.
The person who's sitting you sitting in their car telling you
why climate change doesn't exist, even though they're like
just some dude on Instagram. Whereas oh, here's 50,000
scientists who have dedicated their life to this and you don't
listen to them, you listen to the dude.
(03:14):
Why? Because when they give you a
simple message, you can form an opinion on it and they already
have an opinion. A lot of times people will just
tell me how you really feel about it if you do a lot of
research. Here's how.
Here's the difference in communication.
Con artist, Someone selling you a pyramid schemes.
(03:35):
Cult leaders speak in absolutes,they speak in definitive, they
give you yes or no simple. Now you know how to feel about
it. What if someone who has a lot of
knowledge do well according to kind of the best information we
can suggest that there is the potential.
You see the difference? Well, what do you mean?
(03:58):
So yes or no? At the end of the day, we all
want to have these kind of very simple answers.
Because here's another thing, mylistening audience Gabe, do you
read? Yes.
Wrong. Incorrect.
No, you do not, my friend. I know.
Here's the truth. OK?
Here's the truth. OK?
If you think about how long we've existed as a as a species,
(04:22):
Homo sapien, Millions of years. How long have we been reading?
Fraction. Small fraction, probably either
under 1%. 10,000 years ago. So you're right in the scheme of
things, millions of years versus10,000 years, evolutionarily,
that's not a lot of time, which means that if you think about
(04:44):
it, the brain has not had enoughtime to fully evolve to reading.
So you don't actually read, my friend.
And I'm going to prove it to you, OK?
I'm going to prove it to you. If you, I want you to look in
the title and everyone who's listening, I want you to do this
right now. Just look at something that has
writing on it. OK?
What did you just see? Tell me, Gabe, what did you just
(05:05):
see? Anything on your screen?
Authority in the Wild episode recording.
There it is. I guarantee that this did not
happen. You didn't go a UTHORITY
authority space IN that's N. You didn't do that.
You saw it, and you saw authority in the wild as one
(05:26):
solid image because here's what happened.
Reading requires a lot of high like a lot of resources.
If you look at the research, themore you read, the more
resources you use. Which is why reading makes you
sleepy and tired, and you do it to relax.
How I know? Now you know and knowing it's
half the battle, anyone from theWestern world who's over 40 gets
(05:47):
that joke and knowing it's half the battle.
So what happens is this, Your mind essentially creates a
schema, which is a hierarchy of information.
It's a mental shortcut where it looks at authority in the wild
and instead of trying to processeach letter, it sees it as one
image and it says to your brain,OK, we've already seen all those
(06:08):
letters in that combination. We're 99% sure it says authority
in the wild and it works most ofthe time.
That's why when for example you see a common word by the letter
I messed up by the beginning andthe end are same, you can read
it without even realizing it's messed up.
Or have you ever seen those little things?
And I do this in my workshops where it says you read that
(06:29):
wrong. Yeah.
And you're like, what? And then, Oh yeah, I did read it
wrong. And it gets you every time
because you didn't read it. Your brain saw that combination
and said we are 99% sure this iswhat it says.
To read it requires a lot more resources.
So when we think about the worldof communication, and I'll just
finish with this, the simple liebeats the complex truth.
(06:51):
Another big reason is a simple lie is easier to process.
A complex truth requires higher order cognitive functions.
It requires you to think outsideof the schemas that are your
day-to-day, and therefore because it requires more effort,
you are less likely to do it. Exactly.
And we love shortcuts. We love comforts.
(07:12):
Yeah. And I will give you some like a
couple of shocking examples if you'd like.
Absolutely. OK, when people have a cold,
what's the one vitamin they always have to take?
They should take lots of vitaminC.
Vitamin C? There is no definitive evidence
(07:33):
over the past 50 years that vitamin C has any practical
impact on colds. None.
Some say a little bit, but it's not significant and it's not
replicated. Most say it seems to do no
better or worse than doing nothing.
Yet why do we all think vitamin C works?
Because a gentleman named minus Pauling, who was a two time
(07:58):
Nobel Prize winner in the 19, late 60s, early 70s before he
died, started thinking, you knowwhat, I think large doses of
vitamin C and vitamins can solveany cold, any bacterial
infection. He never really tested it.
It was a hypothesis. But because he was so prominent
and he spoke with such surety, people started jumping onto that
(08:20):
bandwagon and doing it. To this day, we think vitamin C
has some sort of an impact on your cold.
And I think SIM apply for toothpaste if I'm not wrong.
And there are a bunch of other examples out there that this
simple lies were told to us and you start to believe it because.
You start to believe it. And then let me, let me.
(08:42):
Let's go real deep. Let's go real deep, Gabe.
Let's get real nerdy. In 1984, the famous book, You
know, the famous book, 1984. Yeah, the main antagonist in the
book says a lie repeated enough slowly becomes the truth.
Linus Pauling was such a powerful figure, and he didn't
mean to lie. He just thought it.
He just never proved it, that everyone started repeating it
(09:05):
and now all of a sudden it's thetruth.
So our brain love shortcuts, we are emotional beings and still a
lot of us that dedicate our lifeinto becoming expert into
something we struggle to simplify our positioning to
(09:26):
simplify the way you communicates how we can get
better. Yeah, it's a very good question,
right? If simplicity rules all, how can
we get better when we spent our lives and we can't?
It's like it's not a simple concept.
So to ask me to explain it simply is unfair, right?
Because that's what a lot of experts and scientists would
(09:47):
say, you know, ask someone to explain relatively simply to me.
Be like, that's not a simple concept and it's over, you know,
100 years of iterative evidence.I can't just explain it to you
simply. That is the challenge.
So let's give a couple of exercises for your listening
audience. How can you do this better?
And let me start off by talking about the IG no bells.
(10:08):
You know what the IG no bells are?
Nope. No, the IG no bells are
celebrated at Harvard every yearand they are a celebration of
science that first makes you laugh, but then makes you think
it's like legitimate good science.
It's at Harvard. The real Nobel Prize winners are
(10:30):
usually in attendance and they give you your IG Nobel Prize.
So I'll give you an example of one of the of the silly science.
It's real, it's good science. The many years ago, over 10
years ago, one of the IG Nobel Prize winners won the IG Nobel
because they did a bunch of research into why woodpeckers
don't get headaches. It's ridiculous, but it was
legitimate science. Another one did a research study
(10:53):
on how roller coasters and theirimpact on Constipation real
science, and they win prizes forthis.
It's very silly. Part of the IG Nobel's is the
24/7 challenge where you have totake an idea and give a
technical explanation in 24 seconds and then a seven word
summary in a way that anyone canunderstand.
(11:16):
Now for all my listening audience who has to communicate
complex ideas, here's how you practice.
If you ever have to present and you're struggling to make
something simple, you do this exercise.
Number one, do your presentationand time it #2 cut that time in
half and cover all the importantpoints again #3 cut that time in
(11:40):
half and see what's important. Cover all the important points
again. Do it until you can do it in a
minute. If I do a 10 minute
presentation, I'm going to try do it in five.
Everything that I cut out of that to make it 5 minutes was
unimportant. Then I do it in 2 minutes.
Same thing is going to happen. Then I do it in one minute and
all of a sudden I'm at the core of what I want to talk about.
(12:02):
Then I summarize it in one sentence and if you can't say it
in that one sentence, it means acouple of things.
Number one, you don't know things as well as you think you
do #2 the scope of what you're trying to say is too large.
Number three, you're trying to make people experts instead of
making them curious. Because the goal of a really
(12:24):
good presentation is not information.
What are you going to tell me in10 minutes that's going to make
me an expert? Nothing.
Nothing in an hour, nothing in asemester.
But Gabe, if I can make you curious.
You learn it yourself. You're going to spend more of
your time doing stuff. Yeah.
Gabe, have you ever been on YouTube?
And you go down the YouTube rabbit hole where you learn some
(12:48):
random thing and then before youknow it, it's like 2 hours
later? Yeah.
And you're like, I got to get tobed.
I got to finish this work. Yeah.
That's because you got curious. And the master Youtubers.
Yeah, the master Youtubers make you curious.
Exactly. And if I'm a, let's suppose I'm
doing an update on a database design for a back end medical
(13:10):
processing system for GPS, very technical, I'm just making this
up. I have 10 minutes and I want to
make sure I want to go through everything I want to cover.
Well, that's a waste of time because no one's going to
remember it. Everyone's going to say, I'll
just get the slide deck later instead.
What if you changed your focus to, you know what?
I'm just going to give them one or two things that's going to
(13:32):
make them curious so that they want to see my slide deck later.
And that's how you turn an audience into someone that is
evolved and active into learningby yourself or asking more
questions or actually start working with you.
And I think for those that runs a business, the struggle to send
(13:55):
their message across and let's make it even more specific.
Like if someone is running, for example, workshops as a way of
attracting leads to the business.
And we live in the world that weknow in which to sit for 45
minutes to listen to some presenting, some that you know
they're going to pitch you something on work.
(14:17):
So it's possible to invite an audience to a workshop, keep
them there for maximum 15 minutes.
And at the end of those 15 minutes, those individuals to be
so curious to learn more about how you can help them to raise
their hands and to like take my money.
(14:39):
Sure. I mean, there's a lot of a scam
artists that do that and you youhave to study what they do and
then use it for good. All these people that come and
see my one my come to my free one hour seminar.
Well, that seminar is basically just a sales pitch.
And what they do is they create curiosity by showing you all the
(15:01):
problems and the solutions, but not the in between.
If I tell you the problem and then I tell you the solution,
the outcome, and I say it's possible to go from here to
here, but I don't tell you how. Well, now I got you.
Because they usually tell the why the what, but the how it's
(15:24):
always missing. The how is missing and that's so
that you sign up for their course and you have to
understand that that it doesn't matter whether you agree or
disagree. And that's a big thing that I
try and tell people. I do a lot of research into what
I call the dark side of communication.
So I study cult leaders and conman and all the multi level
(15:46):
marketing pyramid schemes. I watch those conferences and
I'm trying to use what they're doing because it works really
well. Could you imagine, Gabe, imagine
between us if the smartest people in the world were as good
as, like, pyramid scheme founders?
Dude, we'd be, we'd be living onNeptune.
(16:07):
The world would be amazing, yeah.
And how make it use for good rather than tricking someone to
believe that oh, at the end of this workshop they will get the
actual solution, How do we also stay true to ourself?
Share what exactly they're getting actually or or or how's
your take on it? Because we have different
(16:28):
perspective well. One of the big things that I try
and tell people who take my courses and is what you have to
understand is this. There's a three-step that I try
and talk to people about how people process information.
You make them curious, you make them care, and then you give
them the content. The difficulty is most people
(16:50):
flip that around and focus only on content, and they're hoping
their content are going to make people curious and care.
So people who are really honest scientists, they focus on the
content, the information, the logistics.
Con men are like Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, Nah, curious and carry
emotional appeal, emotional appeal, emotional appeal.
And here's a really good exampleof this.
OK. And then we'll talk about how we
(17:11):
use it. Gabe, do you ever watch fitness
videos on YouTube? And look at me, I did this new
fitness process and now I have asix pack where I tried this new
workout. And look at me, I'm jacked, you
know? Yeah, unfortunately.
Super motivating. And every time you're like, you
know what, maybe I should buy this pro.
You're like, there's a part of you, even when they say gay,
(17:32):
even when they say not typical results.
And you know, up here in your brain, you know, this is not
typical results, yet it still gets you.
Why? Because and this is going to
translate into a strategy. They focus on the anecdote, an
example, and that's usually moreconvincing than the information
(17:55):
because an example, an anecdote is going to make people care.
And here is one of the truest things you'll ever hear, and
it's what every con man does. It's what every pyramid scheme
person does. They focus on the anecdote.
I met a guy, he did this, and now he's a millionaire.
I met this person, they did this, and now they have a six
pack. They focus on the anecdote.
(18:15):
And here's the truth. Here's a fundamental truth about
people. An anecdote is not evidence.
It's not evidence, but it is more convincing than evidence.
And if you understand that, here's how you use it to your
advantage. Comparing to the actual
evidence. Yeah, well, let's go back to it.
(18:37):
What is simpler? My personal story about when I
did this and now I have a six pack or let me go in depth about
calorie consumption, exercise, the research behind these
things. What do you think would be
simpler to understand? Obviously the first one.
Yeah, the example the my personal experience.
In a way that's evidence as well, right?
(18:58):
Like for example if you. No, it's not.
A personal experience is not evidence.
No, personal experience is not evidence.
But. Not personal.
For example, even if you have like a batch of 1000 individuals
that are apply the same methods of let's say getting.
But that is not a personal experience, is it?
That's not an anecdote. Now we're that.
(19:19):
Now we're getting into information, but even that, that
is evidence, but it's not an anecdote.
Most people will never look at that study.
You know what they'll listen to?Listen buddy, I've, I've read
the studies and I can tell you and then I'll give you my
anecdote. That's what people will listen
to. That's why the person and let's,
(19:40):
let's bring it full circle. That's why the person in their
car who has no background in Physiology will tell you some
workout thing and you'll buy into it or we'll, we'll, we'll
reference one thing they heard Linus Pauling said, vitamin C.
And that's usually all it takes to convince people it.
And again, it doesn't matter if you agree or not.
(20:03):
Every single person listening tous right now, Gabe, the millions
around the world listening to usright now, every single one of
you has tried a food that someone else said it was
healthy. So you tried it even though you
didn't know why. People who drink coconut water,
kale, electrolytes, ask them what is what, why is it good?
(20:25):
They have no idea. But some person said it once and
so they bought into it. If you understand this, and I
know people fight me on this allthe time, but Gabe, forget
politicians and experts and coaches.
Forget all those people. The truly convincing people in
this world are almost always like for the bag.
(20:49):
Like if you again, I go back to this, think about a cult leader.
Forget someone, a salesperson. I work in sales and marketing.
I know about persuasion. No, you don't.
I convinced 10,000 people aroundthe world to put my initials as
a brand on their ass. That's a persuasive person.
That was the Nexium guy, by the way.
And if you if you understand thepower of anecdotal evidence,
(21:13):
even though it's not right, eventhough it's not, it's not the
best way to make decisions because it is a simple statement
that you can form an opinion about.
It is more likely to convince people than the information
because the opinion will make people curious and make people
care. All right.
So in that situation, even if werely on these techniques as an
(21:37):
ethical individual, in your opinion we should still use it
because it works. Yes, 100% because, and I'll give
you a really good example, climate change, OK, there is no
debate about climate change, none within the scientific
community. It's like 99.9% of everyone who
studies climate change all agree.
(21:58):
The people who disagree are not people who are experts in
climate change. They're almost never.
And they're almost like the few people that might be considered
experts or even remotely in thatfield are like maybe 5 people
who are for some reason have allthis money from like, you know,
BT gas and you. This is not my opinion.
(22:18):
This is you can just, it's a fact.
This is a fact. Yet there's people who are
listening who probably disagree with me.
They think that maybe it's not as clear why.
Because the people who are telling you there's no climate
change are better at communicating then the 10,000
scientists around the world. Why?
(22:41):
These people are not just using information, they're using
anecdotes and emotional appeals.These people are just using
information. You know what nobody cares
about? And this happened about six
months. It's happened several times in
the past 10 years. 10,000 environmental sign, A sign, a
letter saying the climate changeis about to really affect human
(23:02):
society. Nobody gave a fuck.
Nobody cared. Listen, it's not that cold
outside. Hey, listen.
Hey, buddy, listen. I've done the research, OK?
I've looked at all the studies. I did my research, OK.
And I can tell you, if you really look at the research just
like I did, this is something that happens irrespective of
people. And we're going to be fine,
(23:24):
dude. You know, you've heard this,
you've heard this. So let me just finish this again
and let me just finish it. Here's what everyone needs to
do. If I'm a client scientist, OK,
If and I, this is just an example, OK?
But if I'm a client scientist and I know the information, I
have to start throwing in anecdotes with my information.
(23:44):
That's all. That's all you have to do.
And they don't do it because an anecdote is not evidence.
So people who know the evidence will focus on the evidence.
But if you want to be smart, yougive me the anecdote before and
after the evidence. And the evidence needs to be
simple. So you have to use these
tactics. And let's dive into emotional
part because almost everyone I speak to asked me like, how
(24:09):
should I know what's either my audience or my prospecting
clients or whoever feel? How to make them feel, how to
make them truly connect with themessage that they want to put
out there? Sure.
Yeah. Well, let's do a total pivot
change and let's talk about a different tactic, OK.
(24:32):
Most of us when we are focusing on sales or we're trying to
convince and we want to figure out what our clients are
feeling, we'll probably do more talking than our client.
And then here's another counterintuitive point.
We will ask open-ended questionsto get opinions, but that rarely
works. I'm not saying it's the it's
(24:53):
because you have to add a few other pieces to it.
So let me give you an example. If I give you a bunch of
information about like say the qualities of, I don't know, what
are you into Gabe? What do you do for fun?
Recording this podcast. Come on, give me something else.
Yeah, anything you want, give mesomething else.
Hiking Clinton Nature. Sure.
OK, so let's suppose I'm trying to sell you on coming to a
(25:14):
resort and I go through my pitch.
If I look at the resort, look how beautiful it is.
How's that? And I say, so how do you feel
about that? You would be like good like you.
You probably struggle for a lot like I don't know.
So it depends. Yeah, I can see you.
Yeah, it depends. You'd be like, I don't know, I
guess good. And you'd be very hesitant to
say you like it because, you know, I'm trying to sell you on
(25:35):
something. So that is doesn't work.
And then what will I do? I'll give you I'll talk more.
So the secret? To finding out what people feel
is getting them to talk more. But how do you do that, Yvonne?
You just said if I ask open sequences it open-ended
questions, it doesn't work. So what are you saying Yvonne?
Well, here's what you do #1 you get people to commit.
(25:57):
This is like a process through closed ended questions.
And this is what a lot of a pyramid scheme people do.
And again, I'm not saying it's good, I'm just saying this is
like tried and true methodologies.
You got to use the dark side forthe good.
So you ask a series of closed ended questions, yes or no
questions this or that. You give choice.
If you had to choose between this and this, what would you
(26:18):
choose? Just out of curiosity, you know
what I mean? As they start revealing
information, then you follow up with open-ended questions.
So I would do something like this, Like if I say like, if I
make it too closed ended and tooobvious, you're going to see it.
So if I say, Gabe, if you say you like hiking, wouldn't you
like to enjoy more hiking in your life?
Yes. You you can see that's yeah, but
(26:40):
that's so obviously me trying tolike coerce you.
And I would say like, but what if I did this?
And I say so, Gabe, if you had to choose, would you like a
short uphill or would you like aflat plane as a hike but like
way longer, maybe something in the middle?
So you like, you like a little bit of it.
So you like a little bit of exercise, but you also want to
(27:02):
chill. Exactly, Yeah.
Well then what's what would be agood time like?
What's the length of time you'relooking for, if you don't mind
me asking? 3-4 hours maybe?
Yeah, and you see how you're struggling to kind of like, what
is the time? So #1 by giving you options,
it's a closed end of question. I now have a direction, I have
something, you're giving me stuff #2 and here's how we go
(27:25):
next level even higher up to getreally find out what people are
thinking. Let's redo that scenario again
instead of saying so like, how long do you like to hike for?
OK, instead of me asking, because the truth is this, the
more questions I asked you, the more hesitant you are to answer
them because it's one way. Yeah, So I would do this.
So personally gave honestly, a hike for me is 30 minutes.
(27:49):
Like legit, if it's more than 30minutes, I'm like, why are we
doing it? This is boring walking for no
reason. What's the ideal time for you?
I'd love to hike. Yeah, I'll hike for half a day.
So that's for full days because it energized me and.
What is how much more of a sincere answer that was versus 3
to 4 hours? Yeah, exactly.
(28:10):
Now you're telling me how you feel.
So what did I do, Gabe? You tell me.
What did I do? What was different from the
first time to the second time? Tell me.
You allow me to answer openly rather than just force me to
choose a numeric time, or just between two options and so on.
I did something else and it's solittle that most people never
(28:33):
notice it. And I do this all the time to
get people to open up. Can you spot it?
So for as you mention about you not being too connected with
this activity and then you throwthe ball at me to share more
about something that you know already that I love doing.
(28:54):
You got a game I told, I revealed information so that you
were more open to reveal something back.
Reciprocation is how you find out more and more.
When I've asked you the first time, I'm like, how long do you
like to hike for? You Like I don't know.
Like in your head you're probably like, I don't know man,
why you even ask me this? I don't care, right?
The second time I said I'm 1/2 hour or less in your head.
(29:18):
Right away you formed the opinion you're like, that's
nothing. And then I said, so how about
you? Oh me, I could do half.
Then you started just talking. So the secret to getting people
to open up is not giving them information.
It is revealing information about yourself that's going to
get people to open up. That's what very interesting
because I'm thinking out throughthis exercise and even that you
(29:39):
are role-playing. It came so naturally for me to
open up more when you ask that last question.
And yes, simply because I immediately, yes, judge you a
bit. And secondly, I was like, Oh
yeah, I can do way more than that comparison.
Kim's in as well and feeling different sort of emotions and
(30:00):
even without realizing because at the end of the day I didn't
realize that. Can I give you a Yeah, and this
is, and I do this all the time. And here's an experiment.
OK, Here's an experiment that anyone listening can try.
OK. Sometimes when you meet people
for the first time, you'll say, So what part of town do you live
in? Where do you live?
It's a pretty common question. If I don't know, you gave and
(30:22):
I'm like, So what part of town do you live in?
Anyone who's taking an Uber and the person starts asking you
questions, you're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I don't want to answer any of your questions.
So I do an experiment and I invite you to try this.
Everyone listening, try this. OK, First, when you meet people
for the first time and go to a networking event and just So
what part of town do you live in?
Where do you live? And you'll notice they'll be a
(30:43):
little bit like, yeah, I live. And they'll give you a very big
general answer because you don'twant to tell people that because
it's one sided. It's me asking a question.
It's an interrogation. But, and this is what I do.
Here's the other experiment. You tell people where you live
and then ask them where they live.
So if I'm in Toronto, which is where I am at the moment, I
(31:05):
would say, oh, I live in the annex.
How about you? Most people would just be like,
oh, I live over it. They'll just right away.
They won't even hesitate. They'll be like, oh, I live over
here. Oh, I live far.
Like they'll tell you everythingbecause when you reveal
something, it builds trust. When you reveal something,
reciprocation kicks in. Does that make sense?
Perfect sense. And I was immediately thinking
(31:26):
about something that I used to struggle with, luckily not so
much now, which is networking, especially in an environment
where I don't know anyone. I know that a lot of people
listening. Yeah, they are.
Networking is part of being a business owner.
And apart from this, if you are not networking in your city or
(31:48):
in a familiar environment, what would be so open revealing
things about you that you can share that anyone will
immediately connect and was likestart talking about them so.
It's a very good question. How can we break the ice with
people? How can you share something
about yourself that's going to be interesting for the other
person? And believe it or not,
(32:09):
ironically, the less interestingthe better.
Yeah, the more interesting it isyou put people in the fence and
they were like, I cannot raise these expectations right now.
Exactly. And it also looks like you're
trying too hard if you try and you really.
So here's the truth. If you want to break the ice,
you have to reveal something when you meet people.
(32:31):
And the best things to reveal are simple, low stake things
that have nothing to do with work because people can.
It's a simple thing against simplicity.
I can feel a certain way about it, but also I can relate to it.
If we meet for the first time and I tell you, yeah, I'm going
to go salsa dancing later might be interesting, but you probably
(32:53):
can't relate to it very much. Oh, I'm going to go do my
gymnastics class. Cool.
I have. I have.
No, I have nothing to add to that.
It might work because it makes you curious, but a much more
powerful thing as you talk aboutuse this phrase.
And I'm going to do this with you right now, Gabe.
OK? What is a simple kind of low
(33:15):
stakes thing that you're lookingforward to doing this afternoon,
tomorrow or this weekend? Give me a couple of different
things. Make them simple.
You're going to watch the certain TV show.
You're going to go out for dinner.
You're meeting a friend for coffee.
You're making spaghetti. You're going to do arm day of
the gym. Give anything simple.
(33:37):
Yes, hitting the gym, spending time with friends, spending time
on my life, going outside, all in general.
Will be much more. You're not looking forward to
spending more time with friends.You're looking forward to seeing
your cousin or your two friends for dinner tomorrow.
Be much more specific again. Going out Friday evening to meet
my close friends or restaurant at the restaurant next to the
(34:02):
beach or or something. OK, now we're good.
So here's another powerful tool,a powerful concept.
Remember when I said anecdotes aren't evidence, but they're
more convincing than evidence? Here's another one.
Specifics beat generalities. Specifics are more interesting,
convincing, and engaging than generalities, which is why
(34:23):
anecdotes work, because it's very specific.
So if you say, you know what, I'm looking forward to a Friday
night dinner with friends, that's about as good.
That's good. If you say pretty good.
The wife and I are going out fordinner after this.
How about you see then if you said if you said like.
And here's how we would do it. Suppose I'm gay.
You are now Yvonne, role reversal.
(34:45):
OK. And you say, hey, Gabe, how are
you? Like we're meeting for the first
time, for example. And I'm like, good, good.
I actually going to go for dinner with the wife after this.
How about you? I reveal that you don't think
you're going to say, oh, you're married or where you're going or
that sounds fun. Is there any right away at least
a bunch of little conversations.If you say, Gabe, how are you?
(35:05):
Pretty good hitting the gym after this.
How about you? You don't think I'm going to say
like, oh, my opinion. Oh, I should go to the gym.
Oh, I just went, oh, what are you working out?
What do you do? Like it can lead to a bunch of
conversation. You say, hey, Gabe, how's it
going? How are you?
Pretty good. But going out for dinner with
friends on Friday. So looking forward to that.
How are you doing? Oh, really?
Is there any right away? We goes into conversation.
So when you're meeting people for the first time, have 3 or 4
(35:28):
very simple things in your back pocket that you can use.
Can I, can I, before you say anything else, Kate, can I
highlight something? Can I put the mirror up in front
of us? Did you notice how quickly you
and I got into a very interesting conversation about
like, where we living and all that kind of stuff?
Yeah, exactly. You didn't even note.
You didn't even notice it. For the listening audience, this
is before we were recording. We talked for maybe 10 minutes
(35:49):
actually about like our mutual lifestyle because I revealed
something right away. Yeah, correct.
And does it seem right? Especially when you are in a
networking event, you have so many simple small things you can
rely to and immediately people will connect with that and and
so on. And Speaking of lifestyle and
(36:11):
being a keynote speaker and public speaker and expert and
traveling so much, being a nomads to what does it really
feel to be living this lifestyle?
Yeah, it's a great question because so many people try and
sell this lifestyle as a professional speaker, travel the
world, and it's fun, but there'sa bunch of realities that people
(36:33):
I think don't realize, you know?So let me first preface.
But I'm one of the lucky people in this world that I get paid to
like, talk, you know, and I loveit.
And it, you know, I could be working in a coal mine or as an
accountant. And I'm so thankful that I have
the privilege to do this very kind of fun job.
There's three elements that no one talks about when you're a
(36:53):
professional speaker. What is that?
Travel sucks. Travel takes a day where you're
completely unproductive. There's nothing glamour.
And listen, I do the business travel I've seen, I do the
lounges and everything like that.
But it's not a glamorous thing because it's hours out of your
day in lines and waiting and in discomfort #2 yes, you get to
(37:18):
travel, but you don't necessarily enjoy it for two
reasons. One, you're usually only there
for a couple of days. And two, you're usually alone.
Like for, I'll give you a reallygood example.
You know, it's an underrated city, Pittsburgh.
If anyone's listening from Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh is a
great city. It's beautiful.
(37:39):
It's green, there's bridges, there's water.
It's a, it was a really nice city, you know, and I was like,
this is a great town. I was there for a conference for
three days. I spent most of my time when I
wasn't doing my presentations and training just kind of
walking around by myself, which was cool.
But over the years that wears onyou a little bit because you're
always alone. And I was only there for three
(37:59):
days. So I thought rush, rush, rush if
I wanted to do anything. And then the last part I'm kind
of hinted at is it is a very lonely lifestyle because if you
are always traveling for work, what kind of relationships are
you making? If you're never anywhere for
more than a couple of days, how many people are you meeting?
Yeah, it's true. I know it well and that's I love
(38:21):
what you how you portray this because people need to be aware
and those guru selling lifestylelike this and working from the
beach and just traveling all thetime, exactly like behind the
scenes. It's a lot of work behind the
scenes are lonely evenings or like walking alone like you
mentioned and so on. And well has its perks because
(38:45):
it's a reason why you do it. But people need to consider when
choosing career, for example. And Speaking of why you do it,
that's the question. Why are you doing it?
You know, I burnt out of like a bunch of different.
Careers. I was in sales, in
pharmaceutical sales, I work in finance, I was an accountant, I
was a personal assistant. I did not fit into any of those
(39:06):
roles and I burnt out of them. But when I was, and that was
like 5 years of my life trying to find a career in my mid 20s.
And for some reason, you know, Ijust seem to the one that was
always a little bit better at like, oh, we have to do a
presentation. Yvonne will do it.
I was that, that just seemed to be the place where I seem to
stand out a little bit. And so after failing out of all
(39:26):
these careers and getting close to 30 and having a bit of a
midlife crisis, I was like, you know what, why don't I try and
do the speaking thing as a, as ajob?
I wonder if I could do that. And the reason I do it is
because honestly, man, it's likeI get really worked up a lot
because it's I love it every time I'm tired.
And here's the here's the, the litmus test, the test for
(39:48):
anyone. If you here's how you know you
have something. Gabe, I'm going to be real with
you. Before this interview started, I
was feeling a little sleepy, a little tired.
I wasn't like very engaged, right?
But you get me talking about stuff I like and I can't help
it. I could talk forever.
And in our conversation, I've really enjoyed it.
It energizes me. I get energized when I talk and
(40:09):
I've done so many keynotes whereit's like right before the
keynote, I'm like, why do I do this?
I'm exhausted. I don't want to do this.
I hate this. And then I get started talking
about this stuff and I like my energy goes through the roof and
I get so much satisfaction from it.
Like I I'm on a mission, man. I want to see I'm getting worked
out. I always get worked.
I'm on a mission to end. Boring we are boring
(40:33):
conversation, boring meetings, boring presentations because
stuff that you and I can get on our own time.
Engagement is what we need to focus on.
I get so much satisfaction not from me engaging people, but
from getting because it might might.
I'm very interactive. So when I get people up in front
(40:54):
of everyone who have who've onlybeen practicing for 10 minutes
and they get engagement, I'm like, yes, now you and I are
ending boring together. That's why I do it.
Love, love the answer and. I think when you're so
passionate about your work, it'sso simple to get this energy
that you're showing and to anyone listening, like just do
(41:18):
stuff you love. I know it's cliche, I know it's,
I don't know, find your passion and so on.
But in reality, that's it. Like if you find your passion,
if you you work out, you're doing, it's fun, it won't be
boring. And Speaking of that, like why
people should get your book, which is called and boring it
is. Yeah.
Thanks for that plug. Very good segue by the way, Gabe
(41:41):
Bravo, good segue on that. I think there's enough ideas in
the world. You can watch 1000 YouTube
videos with 1000 people who tellyou about the secrets of
communication, the secrets, the art of public speaking.
None of them really do it. They just talk about what they
research and they just do it in front of a Ted talk.
But none of them can be like, gotalk to these engineers about
engineering. You know what I'm saying?
(42:02):
It's just ideas. This book is only tactics.
Forget ideas. I don't say you need to engage
your audience. I say here's 5 different
sentence structures that you canuse to make A1 sentence summary
to engage your audience. I don't say it's important to
have good non verbal communication.
Vary your arm movements. I don't say that.
(42:23):
I say here's 5 different exercises for how to vary arm
movements for your physical flow.
Practice them. So that's my biggest pitch.
It's not a book with ideas, it'sa book with tactics.
And in my honest opinion. That book should be about
because yes, we can just ask whatever JDPT and so on to get
the information, but tactics that actually someone else apply
(42:48):
into their own life, business and so on.
It's what works because all the other things are just yeah,
fluff. And in today's world where
Speaking of AI, it's all around us not being boring and being
entertaining and knowing how to communicate is more important
than ever. And with that in mind, what do
(43:11):
we want? Piece of advice that you tell
someone that even after they listen to this conversation,
they still don't see a way forward to stop being boring,
right? Reach.
Reach out to me. It takes me a little while, but
my door is open to everyone. I have people and students from
(43:32):
10 years ago who write me. Yvonne, I'm struggling.
How do I make this interesting? Write me and I'll show you.
I'm also going to be developing a course.
So almost everything I do is notfor the public.
And so I've been over the past 15 years, everything I do is
company. I go into the company.
So nothing I I do is public. But over the last year or two,
I've been convinced to try and create something for the public.
(43:53):
But in the meantime, if you struggle with it and you need
some tactics for your specific world, send me a message on
Instagram and I promise to replyto you.
Perfect. Thank you so much for that and.
The links will be down below both to Ivan's book and link to
his Instagram account to be downbelow.
Make sure to get in touch with him.
And Ken, thank you enough for taking time to join me today is
(44:17):
I truly believe that when we solve communication, we create a
better world around us and we need this.
We need this because as I say, like it's so much love, so much
AI, you don't know what to believe.
And when real humans talk to others is where connection
happens, deals happens, relationship happens.
(44:39):
And that's what we need, and I'll tell you.
Communication is a competitive advantage of the future.
Exactly. Exactly, if you struggle to
stand out, learn how to communicate.
Thank you Gabe. It's been a lot of fun.
If. Anybody wants to reach me just
find me on Instagram Public speaking lab.
Awesome. Thank you so much for listening.
And on to the next one, Pura Vida.
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