August 29, 2024 • 48 mins
Your right to repair your own devices is under threat. Join Stacey Miller and her guest, Paul Roberts, cybersecurity expert, publisher, and editor-in-chief of The Security Ledger, and founder of Secure Repairs. Paul takes us through his transformative journey from cybersecurity journalism to becoming a leading advocate for the right to repair. We'll explore the critical importance of repairability across industries like automotive, agriculture, and personal electronics while debunking myths surrounding the security risks of repair. Paul’s impactful work, including his contributions at FTC's Nixing the Fix, sheds light on the ongoing fight to ensure repair remains a viable option for all.
Our conversation turns to the international stage, comparing the EU's comprehensive right to repair laws with state-level initiatives in the United States. Discover the strengths and limitations of these laws and the broader implications for sustainability and the circular economy. Despite bipartisan support, federal legislation like HR 906 encounters significant roadblocks in Congress. We'll discuss the urgent need for public and political advocacy to move these initiatives forward and emphasize how direct engagement with lawmakers can help ensure legislation meets the needs of constituents.
Finally, we tackle the complexities of passing and implementing right to repair laws, particularly in the automotive, electronics, and agriculture sectors. Hear about the challenges posed by industry lobbyists and the difficulties small business owners face in making their voices heard. We’ll also highlight the role of the automotive industry in setting precedents for right to repair laws and discuss the significance of cybersecurity, resilience, and maintainability in modern legislation. Learn about advocacy efforts like SERF and how they aim to ensure manufacturers uphold their responsibilities to consumers. Don’t miss this engaging and enlightening discussion on the future of repairability and secure devices.
To learn more about the Auto Care Association visit autocare.org.
To learn more about our show and suggest future topics and guests, visit autocare.org/podcast
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:13):
Welcome to Auto Care On Air, a candid podcast for a
curious industry.
I'm Stacey Miller, vicePresident of Communications at
the Auto Care Association, andthis is Traction Control, where
we chat about recent news fromthe global to the local level
and what it may mean to theindustry, featuring guests on
the front lines.
Let's roll.
I have with me today in thestudio Paul Roberts, and I've
(00:38):
been waiting a long time to getPaul on the podcast.
Even though the podcast is new,he was one of the first guests
that I really wanted tohighlight and chat with him.
Paul is the publisher andeditor-in-chief of the Security
Ledger and founder ofsecurerepairsorg.
I first came across Paul onsecurerepairsorg.
Paul, you're also on the Fightto Repair sub stack, which is a
(01:00):
really amazing place to learnabout everything that's
happening with right to Repairacross industries across America
and just following it from thebeginning, what's really
happening.
So welcome, paul.
We're so happy to have you, buttell us a little bit about
Secure Repairs and how you gotinto the whole fight to repair.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Good question and great Thanks for having me on.
It's really a pleasure to behere.
So Secure Repairs was a group Istarted about five years ago
and it really coincides withgetting involved in the right to
repair movement.
It happened because, like yousaid, I have this cybersecurity
(01:42):
journalist for a couple ofdecades now, started my own
publication, security Ledger,back in 2012.
According to LinkedIn, this isactually the anniversary the 12
year anniversary of startingHappy anniversary.
Thank you, it just reminded me.
And that publication was reallyfocused around the security of
the Internet of Things and kindof connected stuff and, you know
(02:05):
, covering that and writingabout it every day gives you
this kind of nuancedunderstanding of the challenges
around cybersecurity andconnected devices and, kind of
over time, I just started togravitate towards some of the
sort of big questions aroundconnected stuff, including this
(02:26):
question around repair.
So I was doing some researchfor a story, looking at the
questions of repair and IoTdevices, ended up talking to
Nathan Proctor, who, like me,lives in the Boston area and he
is the head of the US PIRG'sright to repair campaign, and
(02:50):
was like hey, why don't you comedown?
We're doing a fix-it clinic atthis library in Boston.
Come check that out.
And we got to talking aboutPIRG's efforts back then this
kind of 2018 time period to passstate right to repair laws and
basically one of the things hesaid to me is yeah, you know,
cybersecurity is a big issue forus, because manufacturers are
(03:13):
coming into these hearings atstate houses and basically just
saying hackers and hacking andthe legislators are running
screaming.
You know they're.
You know, if you pass this law,your state's going to be a you
know Mecca for hackers andthey're going to use this
information to.
You know, hack into everythingcars and you know, smart home
devices and stuff and I justknew that that argument was not
(03:36):
based on fact, that that's nothow hacks against connected
devices work, that it's notabout schematic diagrams and
service manuals and diagnosticsoftware.
That's not how things gethacked.
And so I was sort of like I'vegot a really good network of
cybersecurity people and my gutis they're pro-repair people too
(03:56):
.
Why don't I try and connect youwith some of them?
Maybe we can get some of themto turn up to these pre-COVID,
get some of them to come out tothe state houses and show up at
these hearings and just kind ofvoice their support and also
bring their bona fides with them.
You know I'm a lifelongcybersecurity expert.
I understand this topic, youknow in depth and you know what
(04:17):
you're hearing from the otherside on.
This is just not backed up byfacts.
And so that was the birth ofthe Secure Repairs Group, and
five years later, we've got morethan 400 supporters and we have
been able to, I think, make ameaningful difference in terms
of the debate and conversationaround right to repair, most
(04:40):
notably in 2019,.
Gary McGraw, who's one of ourmembers, testified at the FTC's
Nixing the Fix event on a panelaround cybersecurity and repair,
and Gary did a great job justkind of laying out this core
idea that repairability andcybersecurity are not at odds
with one another, they're notmutually exclusive, that you can
(05:03):
have a device that is fixable,repairable and also secure.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
So yeah, yeah, absolutely.
We're so lucky to have folkslike you advocating on behalf of
the across all the industries.
Right, because I see postsabout automotive, which is what
we're talking a little bit abouttoday, but agriculture,
(05:31):
personal electronics, medicaldevices right to repair spans
across all these differentindustries and I think you've
been touching pretty much all ofthose industries throughout
some of your research and thestuff that you've been talking
about online.
It's so nuanced.
Right, because we get asked alot of questions.
Well, hey, why isn't there justone right to repair bill across
all industries and not justautomotive, not just agriculture
?
And the answer is it'scomplicated, but there are
(05:54):
probably more commonalities thatmost people would think, and
it's just that authorized,certified repair just making
sure that the technicians arecertified and they're trained
Repairability should existacross all those industries.
Why would that be so different?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Absolutely?
I guess the answer would be doyou understand how laws get
passed in this country?
It's a scary thing and, yes, anomnibus repair bill makes total
sense, because there isn'treally a fundamental difference
between these issues.
As you look across, you know,kind of the problems as they're
(06:33):
passed, whether it'sagricultural equipment or
personal electronics orautomobiles, don't look
fundamentally different fromeach other.
They're just, you know,narrowed to, you know, cover a
(06:56):
certain type of device.
What it's reflective of, ofcourse, is the power of industry
and industry money to killlegislation that they don't like
.
And so, from a practicalstandpoint, as you guys know, if
you just cast a broad net withyour legislation, yeah, if it
(07:18):
passes, you've created a broadnew right, but you've also
picked a fight with a broadrange of powerful, well-financed
industries who are going to goto war with that.
And you know, try and get it,you know, killed off in
committee, which is whathappened in with, you know,
personal electronics right torepair bills for years, about
(07:39):
four years, before one finallypassed at the very end of 2022
in New York.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
And yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
There have been dozens of right-to-repair laws,
I guess, introduced across thestates over the past at least a
year.
Right Am I wrong?
Is it more than that?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yes, five, depending on how you count.
There have been five kind ofwhat I would say broad or
omnibus type electronics rightto repair bills passed.
The first, like I said, signedinto law by New York Governor
Kathy Hochul at the very end of2022, like December 30th or
something, 2022.
(08:16):
And then in 2023, minnesota andCalifornia passed actually more
toothy kind of powerfulelectronics right to repair
bills that covered a muchbroader range of devices.
And then this year we've seenOregon and Colorado pass also
(08:41):
pretty, pretty strongly worded,pretty powerful electronics
right to repair bills.
In the meantime, there have beenother bills passed as well.
Colorado actually leads thenation in passing right to
repair bills.
They, even before the personalelectronics bills passed.
They passed one covering powerwheelchairs to get people who
(09:02):
are, you know, rely on a powerwheelchair the ability to fix
their own device or get anindependent person to fix it.
And they passed one dedicatedto agricultural equipment as
well, the only one in thecountry at this point.
So there have been those aswell.
So, depending on how you count,that's five or seven.
If you count the auto right torepair bills in Massachusetts
(09:24):
and now Maine, it's nine.
So you know.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, and our, our bills.
I mean it's really good.
We we need more.
Obviously we need somethingfederally, nationwide, across
all these industries.
But we're so, we're so thrilledabout what had happened in
Massachusetts, the successesthat we've had in Maine and
trying to carry that momentum tothe rest of the states.
It was a really long and hardfought battle but you know, the
(09:50):
will of the consumer, theconstituent in the district,
prevailed.
I think about and I look at youknow news about right to repair
and other, even countries, andit seems like maybe Europe a
little bit in Asia they seemmore into repairability than the
states.
And why do you think that is?
Do you have any thoughts onthat?
(10:10):
Just curious.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Well, it's like yes and no, Like you're right, If
you look at kind ofcomprehensive legislation,
federal, what we would think ofas federal legislation.
The EU is way ahead of us onthis.
They passed a right to repairlaw that applies across the EU.
Now each member state needs toadopt it individually, but that
(10:34):
went into effect a few monthsago and it's pretty good.
It mandates a lot of stuffaround length of support that
you need to provide, needing toprovide, you know, replacement
parts, needing to, you know,allow people to, you know,
(10:56):
repair their stuff and so on.
On the other hand, it islimited to a subset of devices
and it is not comprehensive.
The language of the bill doesn'treally specify, as many of the
state laws in the US do, thatthe parts and tools that you
(11:20):
provide to do repair have to beprovided at an affordable price.
That leaves the door open formanufacturers to just jack up
the price and make it, you know,impractical.
So if you look at, if you lookat a law like Colorado or Oregon
passed right, or Californiaeven, or Minnesota those are
those are toothier and strongerreally than anything that's been
(11:42):
passed in the EU in terms termsof what they I mean Colorado
and Oregon specifically banthings like part pairing, part
serialization that companieslike Apple use to.
You know, bind a certain screento a certain iPhone body, so
you can't just take a brokenscreen off of one iPhone and
replace it with, you know, theworking screen from a similar
(12:03):
model.
I ban that as a practice.
Eu hasn't done that.
That said, you're right.
I feel like the conversationaround things like concepts like
circular economy not justreduce, reuse, recycle we should
really be focusing on the firsttwo of those, and recycling is
(12:24):
kind of a last resort, and Ifeel like the EU is much further
down the road in talking aboutthe need to move to an economy
that is circular than here inthe States.
I mean, gosh, we're in themiddle of a presidential
campaign.
I don't know if the wordcircular economy has made it
into any rally conversation, andit just is not.
(12:50):
It's just not on the radar here, yeah, even even though there
are plenty of groups and and andand people, individuals, who,
who are supportive of it who aresupportive of it.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah, and it's.
I mean the word green, I feellike has been thrown around a
lot and like one could arguewhat, what the meaning of the
word green is Like.
I think reduce, reuse, recycle,repairability, those that, like
those, are synonymous withgreen.
So you know I just it kind ofblows my mind because because
right to repair really supportssome of that sustainability too.
We're just we're just notseeing it, or maybe we're not
(13:25):
emphasizing that as much as weshould.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
What's so funny about it, too, is it's such a
political winner.
I mean, you look atMassachusetts' update to its
2012 auto repair bill thatexpanded it to include
telematics right 2020 ballotmeasure almost 75, three
quarters of people voted for it74% and that was in the face of
(13:52):
tens of millions of dollars innegative advertising from the
automotive industry to kill it,to defeat it, did not matter.
Maine had a ballot measure in2023.
Frankly, the automotiveindustry didn't even bother run
ads because I think theyrealized like it doesn't matter.
Maine had a ballot measure thatin 2023, frankly, the
automotive industry didn't evenbother run ads because I think
they realized like it doesn'tmatter.
Like there's so much support forthese 83% of voters.
(14:13):
83% of voters voted yes.
So you're like man, if you're apolitician, how many issues are
you going to get 83% of peopleto vote for?
And like this is one of them.
Like I just don't understandwhy you're not like jumping on
that, being like I'm just gonnaride this horse all the way, you
know, to the finish line.
Yeah, because it is somethingwith bipartisan support red,
(14:37):
blue, left, right like peoplejust consumers, business owners
just absolutely see the need forit and support these laws who
doesn't support.
It is the kind of, you know,corporate interests that have
determined that.
You know this is a threat toour business model.
But yeah, I mean it's not apart of our conversation right
(15:01):
now politically.
I don't really understand why.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
We have.
We have really big hopes forthe next administration and you
know we're we're so close withwith this federal bill, hr 906,
the repair act.
I think it's got nearly 60co-sponsors, completely
bipartisan.
You know, a no, a nowhere's arcstrategy if you will right One
on each side all the way down.
(15:26):
Tons of support, but we'rerunning out of time.
I think September is the lastchance that we have to get this
bill to the floor for a vote.
You know we're really hopingfor that support.
We just need a gust of wind.
So you know, if anybodylistening can help us get that
floor to a vote, you know like.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
This is our plea, right?
This is our last chance beforewe got to start this all over
again.
Yeah, call your rep, it is.
I mean, I had the honor oftestifying in front of the house
committee subcommittee that wasthat was considering that bill
July of 2023.
I had a hearing on right.
You know what is?
Is there a right to repair?
I think it was the name of thehearing, but the repair act was
kind of front and center forthat hearing and, um, you know,
like I've said there, if youwatch that hearing, it's very
hard to tell who's democrat,who's republican.
(16:12):
There seemed to be just ageneral attitude of support and,
and, lo and behold, the billmade it out of that subcommittee
, um, and, and went to the fullum, uh, house committee, uh, and
it was energy and commerce, um,but it's sitting there.
And this House Committee Energyand Commerce, but it's sitting
there.
And this happens so often.
I think it's part of the reasonpeople get a little cynical
(16:33):
sometimes is because, yeah, yougot a bill here with a lot of
support, bipartisan support,consumers support it.
So why isn't it?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
becoming law.
Yeah yeah, there's a lot ofotherworldly powers.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Maybe that makes people, that makes people
cynical.
I mean it does like OK, sosomebody's got a veto here who
you know isn't an elected repand isn't a voter, so you know.
But so, but I do feel like ifvoters really get clear like we
want to see this thing get done,you know write the email, make
(17:08):
the phone call.
You know show up to the local.
You know when your reps comeback home to you know, talk to
people.
You know, make it clear that itmatters to you.
I mean my, my reps areCatherine Clark and and
Elizabeth Warren in the Senate,so I'm preaching, preaching to
(17:32):
the choir, but you know, not notafraid to bring it.
You know it.
Sometimes it's just about, hey,bring this, bring this to your
attention and making it clearthat it needs to be on your
docket.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and Elizabeth Warren
did, did some great work.
She was, you know, questioningNHTSA and some of the agencies
about their statements on rightto repair.
She's visited repair shops tohear directly from them about
the issue.
So we do appreciate that andthose are important steps
towards getting a resolutionreally important steps, this
case in mass.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
We pass that law in 2020 and it got, you know,
challenged in court, went tothis judge and it's been sitting
there for three years.
Basically Hasn't been anyaction of any kind in almost a
year.
It really is.
It's hard to wrap your headaround what's been happening
here, and the in massachusettsis very complex because, you
(18:25):
know, our, our new attorneygeneral, andrew campbell, is
enforcing the law, right, um,but there's, but automakers have
been saying, well, we're notgoing to comply with it.
You know, because there is noclear ruling from the courts, uh
, even for them to appeal, umand um.
So it's, it's, it's just kindof a messy situation and, yeah,
um, you know we'll, it's, it'sjust kind of a messy situation
(18:46):
and, um, you know we'll, we'llsee what happens with it.
Hopefully we'll get a decisionout of that court sometime soon.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
I mean it's very clear that that the will of the
people definitely prevails whenit comes to passing the laws.
You know, we can get a littlediscouraged Sometimes.
We say you know, themanufacturers are just trying to
delay.
Delay, deny, distort, that'sthe three Ds.
And anytime a law gets passed,whether it's automotive or other
industries, there seems to besome sort of interference.
(19:14):
They come in, they try tochange some of the original
parts of the law to be a littlebit more in favor of what they
want.
I think we saw that with JohnDeere, maybe a little bit with
that electronics bill in NewYork, and then we had some
interference in automotive inMaine as well.
So what, what's your take onthat?
And is there any way to avoidthat?
Because it blows my mind thatyou could pass a law that people
(19:37):
say this is what I voted for,and then, after it gets passed,
it's like well, we're going tochange just a couple little
minor things that maybe aren'tso minor to some of us.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, absolutely, you know, I think it's it's it's
part of the democratic processthat sometimes laws get passed
that that do need to, that haveunintended consequences and do
need to be revised time, but totry and do that before the law
(20:08):
has even taken effect and you'veidentified those problems, yeah
, I mean that did happen back in2012 with the original auto
repair law, where thelegislature kind of modified it
before it was finally, you know,you know, enacted, which you
know has been okay in the last12 years.
(20:28):
But you know, you know, I think, in general, yeah, we need, you
know, I think we need a way to,you know, I really feel like
this is just a matter of, youknow, people being able to, you
know, connect with theirrepresentatives and make it
(20:51):
clear what their priorities areand what their needs are.
And you know, I do think thatyou know, lawmakers, both at the
state and federal level, hear alot from you know, lobbyists
and industry representatives andso on.
It is harder to hear from thesmall independent repair shop or
(21:11):
auto body shop, because youknow they're working all week
long, or auto body shop becauseyou know they're working all
week long.
You know they don't have thetime on a Wednesday afternoon to
go spend four hours at thestatehouse talking to
representatives, and thatdynamic, I think, really affects
the way these conversationshappen and it can make the needs
(21:32):
of those small business ownersor families or whatever kind of
diminish.
I'd like to think there's a fixfor that.
I don't know, I don't know whatit is, but I would really like,
like you said, I would reallylove to see some changes that
make it easier for you know,representatives, whether at the
state or federal level, toconnect with and hear from their
constituents, definitely at thefederal level I mean, whether
at the state or federal level toconnect with and hear from
(21:56):
their constituents.
Definitely at the federal level, I mean at the state level.
I feel like it's it's a littleless of an issue definitely at
the federal level.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Absolutely.
I mean, we saw hundreds ofrepair shops talking to their
legislators, hosting them in theshop itself, having their
employees talk to them, or goingto their office.
And you know, I get it.
It can be intimidating.
Maybe I don't want to getinvolved in politics, I don't
want to seem like I'm on aparticular side or I don't know
what I'm supposed to say to alegislator, right, Like that's
(22:25):
really intimidating.
But when you, when you start toexplain to people, it's not
about what side of the aisleyou're on, it's about what does
this mean to you, what does itmean to your business and what
does it affect?
You know, you, you humanize it.
You humanize it a lot.
Do you?
Do you drive a car?
Yeah, Do you want to be able to?
You know, get in your car andget to the place where you need
to go, Um cost effectively andefficiently, yeah, Okay.
(22:48):
So that's what my business doesand this law hurts my business.
So things like that are very,you know, education that we're
trying to give to people andreally get down to that
grassroots level to keep thismovement going where it needs to
go.
So, absolutely, Do you think?
I mean the bills that havepassed so far.
(23:09):
We've seen automotive, we'veseen electronics and we've seen
agriculture.
Were there any likecommonalities between any of
those that you think made themso successful?
Because I think, likecybersecurity probably came up
in all of them, right?
And the manufacturer said, well, someone's going to hack this
cell phone, someone's going tohack this tractor, someone's
going to hack this car.
But ultimately those argumentswere defeated, right?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yes, they were.
They were, you know, in somecases, like I'm thinking about
Minnesota's law and New York'slaw, you know there were some
last minute additions to thoselaws, kind of language thrown in
at the very last minute to kindof, you know, accede to what I
think are basically kind ofbaseless arguments around
(23:56):
cybersecurity.
You know so.
But by and large, yes, thosearguments didn't win the day as
they did for, you know, thepreceding years.
They didn't result in the billdying in committee.
You know, honestly, I think whatdistinguishes each of the bills
that passed was that in each ofthose states you had reps or
(24:22):
senators, or both bill sponsorswho were willing to stick their
neck out and put politicalcapital on the line and
basically see these thingsthrough.
They not only sponsored the bill, they really believed in it and
they, they burned somepolitical capital.
They, you know they, they gotit done and I think that is the
(24:46):
commonality between, you know,diverse states, like you know,
new York, minnesota, colorado,oregon, california, like you
know, was just that, having asponsor or sponsors who just saw
it through and got it done.
Use your connections, use yourexperience to to, to, you know,
(25:08):
settle those questions, to tampdown the what ifs and, oh my God
, it's going to be a disaster,and just see it through.
That's both encouraging and andsobering because, as you know,
in a given state, you know, orgiven legislature, you might not
have that person who has boththe connections um and but also
(25:35):
the political will and kind ofpassion to get it done.
And if you don't have thatperson then the chances of that
bill languishing or dying incommittee are much higher.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I mean, when we you know youtalk to legislators and you
learn more about what else isimportant to them, and they've
got other constituents who arearguing on other sides of the
coin.
So trying to understand bothsides of this coin, both sides
of the story, can be reallydifficult.
And, yeah, them supporting yourbill could be political suicide
(26:08):
for them, but it's important tothe people and what is right
for all of the people in theirdistrict, right?
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, I think there's a familiarity issue too, and I
think that's why we saw years offailure, failure, failure,
failure, and then, all of asudden, this switch in 2022,
2023, like all of a sudden, oh,we're getting bills passed.
And I think some of that isjust legislators getting
familiar with this issue and notbeing, like right to repair,
like what you know, kind ofunderstanding what the what the
(26:38):
bill is about, um, having theconversations that they're going
to have, both pro and con, andsettling on you know whether
they're for or against it orwhether it's important for them
or not, um, and so I do thinkthat there is a, you know, time
is on our side, in that way oflike the more every year that
these get reintroduced,legislators have to engage with
(26:59):
it, get a little bit morecomfortable with it, maybe also
start to understand theconsequences of not doing
anything.
That we're seeing in stateslike Massachusetts.
Or we're seeing them withhigher repair costs for vehicles
.
We're seeing them with, youknow, higher repair costs for
vehicles.
We're seeing them with thisproblem of abandonware and brick
(27:19):
devices.
You know, you bought a smartdevice 18 months ago, you know
the Spotify car thing, and now,all of a sudden, it's basically
a $300 paperweight, you know,and you're like how did that
happen?
So some of the you know,technology is driving change
really quickly.
Legislation moves really slowlyand I think it can be sometimes
(27:52):
hard for to get past the waitwhat are you talking about and
what is this?
And get to the like okay, youknow, here's what I support.
Here are my conditions.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Exactly, and I think that's that's probably the
reason why I'm so happy that somany other industries you know,
unfortunately, they're dealingwith right to repair.
But because they're dealingwith right to repair, they've
heard about it in some otherindustry.
So it used to be that you wouldgo and have a conversation on
the Hill and talk about right torepair and they're like what?
But now we go into offices andwe talk about it and they're
(28:26):
like, oh, you mean tractors,right?
We're like, no, the cars,please the cars and the trucks.
But the familiarity with it isdefinitely increasing thanks to
all these other industries thathave been going through it.
So, you know, a rising tideraises all boats and, you know,
while it's an issue, it's a goodthing that we're able to
surface this issue and make itmuch more prevalent.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
And cars are kind of the canary in the coal mine for
this right I mean auto, autoright to repair was the first
right to repair law of any kindin this country, in
Massachusetts, back in 2012.
So, in some ways, cars launchedthis whole conversation, the
auto industry launched thiswhole conversation, and I do
think, as you know, this is amuch bigger conversation than
(29:10):
just your right to fix your owncar like the types of exclusive,
you know monopolisticecosystems that manufacturers
would are certainly looking tocreate where, hey, it's a walled
garden and we're the onlycompany that can access, service
(29:30):
, maintain, update, repair thisdevice, because, oh, hackers or,
oh you know, you can't trustindependent repair people like
that ecosystem.
That business model could veryeasily be replicated from cars
to agricultural, to medicaldevices, to home appliances, to
you name it, and if we allow itto, it will.
But that's going to be adisaster for consumers and a
(29:52):
disaster for our economy and adisaster for the environment.
And so, you know, I do feel,when I talk to legislators, the
need to sort of call out likethis train is coming down the
track and this is not aconversation that's limited to
cars or agricultural equipment.
Cars or agricultural equipmentLike this could affect every
(30:19):
corner of our economy and havehuge costs for us if we don't,
you know, enact the types ofsmart laws as we did a hundred
years ago.
Right, the smart aroundaviation or automobiles or
whatever, to make sure that thisis.
You know, that this technologycontinues to serve people and
serve all of us, not enslave us.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah, yeah, we don't want to live in iRobot.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
We do not.
We do not, yeah, so yeah.
Or there's a movie, Brazil,that I did a talk at DEF CON a
couple of years back that kindof picked up on the Brazil theme
, the Terry Gilliam film aboutthe you know air conditioner
repair, you know rogue airconditioner repairman, you know.
In this sort of dystopianfuture, so, yeah, I mean there
(31:03):
are all kinds of kind ofdystopian visions of what that
future could look like, and ourjob is to not make those a
reality, exactly.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
This is DTP IT Director and Sustainability
Committee Staff Liaison at AutoCare Association.
Are you passionate aboutshaping our industry's future?
Join an Auto Care AssociationAdvisory Committee and make a
real impact as a volunteer.
You will drive innovation,tackle key challenges and
collaborate on cutting-edgesolutions for the entire supply
(31:34):
chain.
Don't miss out.
Join us at our upcomingLeadership Days event to start
making a difference.
Learn more at AutoCareorg slashLeadership Days and find
information on currentcommittees at AutoCareorg slash
committees.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
So I'm really glad that you mentioned that
automotive kind of set theprecedent back.
Set the precedent, theprecedent, back in 2012, when
the first right to repair lawwas passed and that was in
Massachusetts, massachusetts.
It's 12 years later and here,you know, here we are again with
auto.
We've got all these otherindustries that are making
headway.
Do you think that there's anyother industry that is going to
(32:12):
set a precedent for the future,for the next 10 years, for the
next 20 years?
Or do you think you know it's,it's whoever's first to the game
?
Speaker 2 (32:21):
That is a great question.
So you know, like you, I reallyhope that our lawmakers and
policymakers see the forest anddon't get too focused on the
trees.
We need comprehensive new laws,regulations that govern all
(32:46):
manner of software-drivenconnected smart devices, because
these problems stretch acrossall different product categories
.
I do think that the battlewe're seeing right now over
connected vehicles is at theforefront.
(33:08):
I think the conversation is themost advanced around smart
connected cars, both in terms ofservice and repair.
Also in terms of you know, whattypes of data are these devices
connecting, collecting?
How are automakers, you know,using or repurposing or
modifying, monetizing that data?
Those are all conversations Ithink apply equally well to all
(33:32):
manner of other devices, but theconversation is very pointed
right now in the automotivesector.
So automotive is again thecanary in the coal mine.
I think automotive is wherewe're going to see the earliest
battles around this other devicecategories or areas where I
(33:54):
think you know you'll also see alot of attention and probably
regulatory focus.
Obviously you know havingoptions to repair his or her
iPhone or whatever Like they getit.
So I think that's going to beone.
(34:16):
You know things like kitchenappliances and so on, for sure
People understand that.
You know, in terms oflegislation and speaking,
putting my cybersecurity hat on,in terms of some of the other
issues that have come up aswe're amidst, you know, in this
(34:39):
conversation aroundrepairability, serviceability,
you know, resilience, you knowmedical devices are one where I
think, from a policy perspective, we've done the most or
furthest down the road in termsof really trying to put some
(35:00):
hard lines around and somestructure around things.
Issues, important issues likesoftware security and software
integrity and secure design,secure deployment.
Medical devices and the FDA areway out in front of the rest of
the government on that.
Really, I'd love to see thosesame types of you know policies
(35:24):
applied across all differenttypes of product.
You know products because rightnow it's real Wild West.
You make a software product thatyou sell to people, whether
it's businesses or individuals.
There really are no laws orregulations that tell you that.
You know it's got to be secure.
The software has to be of highquality.
(35:45):
Here's what your responsibilityis to support it and maintain
it.
It's you know.
Again, you could sell a smartconnected product to somebody
for 300, 400, $500.
Six months later you can brickit.
You can basically say, oh, I'mdone, I'm not going to, you know
, shutting down the server?
Sorry, bring it to your localrecycling center.
Oh my God, there's no law,there's nothing that says you
(36:08):
can't do that to a consumer.
And consumers are like what areyou talking about?
I spent $500 for that.
It's like oh well, yeah, I'msorry it doesn't.
You know, we looked at thenumbers and it says the products
aren't really selling the waywe wanted it to.
So it's insane.
It's insane and it's just.
It's a reflection of the factthat, hey, man, you know,
software is driving changes inthe economy and in the consumer
(36:31):
space that have gotten way aheadof the regulations that we have
around warranties and thingslike that, that all go back to
the 70s and stuff.
So there need to be changes,there need to be updates that
just reflect the new reality ofbuying stuff.
So, you know, I do think I lookat medical devices and I'm like
(36:53):
that's where we're seeing,that's where we've seen some
laws that that are veryforward-looking and or at least
modern, but we need to get themapplied to other types of stuff
as well, including includingautomobiles.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Honestly, yeah, and that?
So technology is not going toslow down, it's only going to
increase every single day.
You've created something inresponse to this for the future,
something called SERF.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
The website secure-resilientorg.
So this is a advocacy groupthat we set up, kind of an
outgrowth of secure repairs, butreally focused not just on
right to repair but on thebroader issue of needing to
foster both cybersecurity andresilience and, and you know
(37:50):
which includes repairability andmaintainability, and you know,
the ability to continue reusingstuff, to sell it and exchange
ownership and all this stuffthat we sort of take for granted
.
But I love that that we that wecan take for granted in the
current environment.
Yeah, so surf is is an advocacygroup really for the
(38:11):
cybersecurity community to havea seat at that policy table and,
to you know, use our voice andour knowledge and expertise to
help policymakers create andpass, you know, forward looking
smart legislation.
One of the issues that we'refocused on, kind of out of the
(38:32):
gate we're only a few months oldis around bricked and abandoned
devices.
Some people call abandonware,just as I said, the ability of
manufacturers to just walk awayfrom smart devices, and we saw
that actually just last week, Ithink, with Amazon kind of just
(38:52):
saying that it was discontinuingthis photo subscription for one
of its Alexa devices and youknow which is basically the
whole reason that people wouldhave bought this device.
You know just, we need policies, laws, regulations that protect
consumers from that type ofabuse or harm.
(39:14):
Yeah, we saw it with theSpotify, we've seen it with
Sonos speakers, all kinds ofthings.
It potentially could be comingto you know a car dealership
near you where you, you know,spend an extra $2,000 for a you
know I don't know some smartseat feature or something like
that.
And then the manufacturer saysyeah, we're not supporting that.
(39:38):
Sorry, we're shutting downthose servers.
It's going away.
Could?
you imagine yeah, so we'refocused on that issue, but
others as well, including yeah,just how do we clean up this
software space?
How do we get the organizations, the companies making smart
(39:58):
connected stuff, to emphasizethings like resilience,
cybersecurity, data security,produce high quality, longevity,
reusability, right, and sothat's what we're about.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
I mean there was a time where you would buy a
product and you know peoplewould brag about how long it
lasted, and you don't.
You don't hear thoseconversations anymore.
I love that you brought this up.
I had a security camera in myhouse and I got an email and it
said you know this, this camerahas reached its end of life, the
software is no longer supported.
And I got an email and it saidyou know this, this camera has
reached its end of life, thesoftware is no longer supported.
And I went what are you mean?
(40:37):
The camera works, there'snothing wrong with it.
But now you're telling me it'sgoing to stop functioning.
Oh, by the way, here's adiscount on the new cameras.
And I thought no, freaking waylike this is not okay.
And I can't imagine driving acar off the lot and having paid
for something and then at oneday it's not supported anymore
and I lose a feature or the caris bricked and abandoned.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Like that is a dystopian future one of the
things that surf is going tohelp to try and work out is what
is the proper policy responseto that Right?
So you can be pretty sure youknow whether that's um, uh.
(41:18):
You know some requirement onhow long you support a device
and also some notion of a whatone of our board members, tara
Wheeler, calls a gracefulhandoff.
So if you, as a company, makethe decision that is yours to
make as to whether you want tocontinue supporting a product or
not, that's fine.
But if you're not going tosupport, if you're walking away
from it, here's what you need todo right.
(41:39):
To make it right with yourcustomers.
To make it right with you knowthe community, whether that's
open sourcing the software,whether it's designating a third
party to come in and continuemaintenance and upkeep as you
walk away.
As I look at it now, you know ifyou're a company deciding.
You know smart product, dumbproduct.
(42:01):
You know what do we design andyou know what do we want to do.
There's really nothing on thedon't make it smart side of the
scales.
Right, the don't make it smartside of the scales right.
I mean you can make a smartproduct, have recurring revenue
via monthly subscriptions have awhole bunch of cool smart
features that are going to makeit more saleable to the public,
(42:22):
and then, on the no side,there's nothing.
You can brick it in six months.
If it doesn't work out, youhave no obligation to your
customers, you can just walkaway from it.
So why not make it smart With amore balanced approach?
They might say, well, listen,okay, we want to make this
toaster a smart toaster, but ifwe make it a smart toaster,
(42:46):
we're going to need to do X, yand Z.
We're going to need to supportthe software for eight years.
We're going to need to have a,you know, clean handoff after we
end support to a third party ormake it open source.
You know, make the softwareopen source, we're going to have
to continue providing, you know, parts and diagnostic software
and updates for, you know, thisperiod of time.
And so now, okay, now we'relooking at, you know, I don't
(43:07):
know, maybe we'll just make itdumb, you know?
Or yeah, we'll make it smart,but we'll understand what our
obligations are.
We have rights to walk awayfrom it, but we have
responsibilities too, and rightnow that there is no, that that
(43:29):
conversation doesn protectedcommunities are protected.
Governments are protected fromthe downside of just companies
just walking away fromthemselves.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
It doesn't seem like an unreasonable conversation.
It doesn't.
It should be simple.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Look at every industry, look at every industry
that we rely on.
Look at the aviation industry,right, and all the regulations
you know.
Or the automotive industry, allthe regulations that we have
had to implement over thedecades to make those safe,
reliable, high quality, you know, to protect consumers, to
protect the public.
And so we've seen this moviebefore.
(44:12):
What's changed, I think, isjust the rate of change and
evolution, and you know just theway that technology and the
Internet and now AI, are justaccelerating that.
Yeah, and that's reallychallenging for, you know, for
any organization, any government.
You know, again, the policyconversations tend to happen a
(44:32):
lot more slowly, but the changeis happening really quickly.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah, it is, and it's not going to stop.
So this is why it's I mean,it's so important.
We're so thankful for peoplewho are passionate like you and
all the other folks at SecurityLedger.
What you're doing at SURF itincredibly important.
So the more people, the morevoices we have, the more experts
on this, the better, and umlike, we thank you for your
(44:56):
passion and all the time thatyou give to all of these
industries.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
It it matters to a lot more people then well, let
me let me throw it back to youand say I'm really thankful for
the auto care association andall you all have done to support
right to repair, not not onlywith automobiles.
But you know, the efforts thatyou have made I think have had
spillover effects outside of theautomotive industry.
So I'll throw that back to youand say thanks for your work.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
It's a historical time for sure, and it will
continue.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Yeah, huge changes going on and and you know
changes beget these types ofconversations, you know.
You know where you have peoplewho are saying, hey, we need to
put some guardrails in here andwe need to kind of protect
people, protect consumers andprotect the environment.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
And that's what's happening, yeah, yeah.
So, paul, where can folks findyou if they want to connect with
you?
They want to subscribe to yousocial media.
I want to make sure everybodyhas a chance to see some of the
work that you're doing and alsoget involved.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
OK, if you're a security professional
cybersecurity professional,information security
professional, IT professionalcheck out secure repairs dot org
.
I got my URL right there on myname and join us.
I got my URL right there on myname and join us.
Add your name to our list andwe will reach out to you if
we've got hearings happening inyour state and you can, you can
help out both on the auto repairside and electronics repair as
(46:21):
well.
So if you're an IT cyber policy, secure, the secure, resilient
future foundation, secure dashresilient dot org is where you
(46:44):
should go.
And if you want to follow theright to repair conversation,
fight to repairnews isa substack that I help edit and we'll
send.
We do like a weekly newsnewsletter that just provides
all the links to cool right torepair stories that are
happening around and we do someoriginal reporting and
(47:05):
podcasting as well.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
The sub stack is phenomenal, if I might say so.
So please, please, please,subscribe.
It's definitely worth the time.
Paul, thank you so much fortaking the time to be here.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Stacey, I really, really appreciate it and look
forward to coming back.
And hey, man, we get repair act.
I'll come back and do a littleend zone dance here with you.
Happy to do that, let's do itFingers crossed.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Absolutely, but call your representative, call your
senator, let's get this done.
Autocare OnAir is a productionof the AutoCare Association
dedicated to advancing the autocare industry and supporting
professionals like you.
To learn more about theassociation and its initiatives,
visit autocareorg.
Welcome to Auto Care On Air, a candid podcast for a
curious industry.
I'm Stacey Miller, vicePresident of Communications at
the Auto Care Association, andthis is Traction Control, where
we chat about recent news fromthe global to the local level
and what it may mean to theindustry, featuring guests on
the front lines.
Let's roll.
I have with me today in thestudio Paul Roberts, and I've
(00:38):
been waiting a long time to getPaul on the podcast.
Even though the podcast is new,he was one of the first guests
that I really wanted tohighlight and chat with him.
Paul is the publisher andeditor-in-chief of the Security
Ledger and founder ofsecurerepairsorg.
I first came across Paul onsecurerepairsorg.
Paul, you're also on the Fightto Repair sub stack, which is a
(01:00):
really amazing place to learnabout everything that's
happening with right to Repairacross industries across America
and just following it from thebeginning, what's really
happening.
So welcome, paul.
We're so happy to have you, buttell us a little bit about
Secure Repairs and how you gotinto the whole fight to repair.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Good question and great Thanks for having me on.
It's really a pleasure to behere.
So Secure Repairs was a group Istarted about five years ago
and it really coincides withgetting involved in the right to
repair movement.
It happened because, like yousaid, I have this cybersecurity
(01:42):
journalist for a couple ofdecades now, started my own
publication, security Ledger,back in 2012.
According to LinkedIn, this isactually the anniversary the 12
year anniversary of startingHappy anniversary.
Thank you, it just reminded me.
And that publication was reallyfocused around the security of
the Internet of Things and kindof connected stuff and, you know
(02:05):
, covering that and writingabout it every day gives you
this kind of nuancedunderstanding of the challenges
around cybersecurity andconnected devices and, kind of
over time, I just started togravitate towards some of the
sort of big questions aroundconnected stuff, including this
(02:26):
question around repair.
So I was doing some researchfor a story, looking at the
questions of repair and IoTdevices, ended up talking to
Nathan Proctor, who, like me,lives in the Boston area and he
is the head of the US PIRG'sright to repair campaign, and
(02:50):
was like hey, why don't you comedown?
We're doing a fix-it clinic atthis library in Boston.
Come check that out.
And we got to talking aboutPIRG's efforts back then this
kind of 2018 time period to passstate right to repair laws and
basically one of the things hesaid to me is yeah, you know,
cybersecurity is a big issue forus, because manufacturers are
(03:13):
coming into these hearings atstate houses and basically just
saying hackers and hacking andthe legislators are running
screaming.
You know they're.
You know, if you pass this law,your state's going to be a you
know Mecca for hackers andthey're going to use this
information to.
You know, hack into everythingcars and you know, smart home
devices and stuff and I justknew that that argument was not
(03:36):
based on fact, that that's nothow hacks against connected
devices work, that it's notabout schematic diagrams and
service manuals and diagnosticsoftware.
That's not how things gethacked.
And so I was sort of like I'vegot a really good network of
cybersecurity people and my gutis they're pro-repair people too
(03:56):
.
Why don't I try and connect youwith some of them?
Maybe we can get some of themto turn up to these pre-COVID,
get some of them to come out tothe state houses and show up at
these hearings and just kind ofvoice their support and also
bring their bona fides with them.
You know I'm a lifelongcybersecurity expert.
I understand this topic, youknow in depth and you know what
(04:17):
you're hearing from the otherside on.
This is just not backed up byfacts.
And so that was the birth ofthe Secure Repairs Group, and
five years later, we've got morethan 400 supporters and we have
been able to, I think, make ameaningful difference in terms
of the debate and conversationaround right to repair, most
(04:40):
notably in 2019,.
Gary McGraw, who's one of ourmembers, testified at the FTC's
Nixing the Fix event on a panelaround cybersecurity and repair,
and Gary did a great job justkind of laying out this core
idea that repairability andcybersecurity are not at odds
with one another, they're notmutually exclusive, that you can
(05:03):
have a device that is fixable,repairable and also secure.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
So yeah, yeah, absolutely.
We're so lucky to have folkslike you advocating on behalf of
the across all the industries.
Right, because I see postsabout automotive, which is what
we're talking a little bit abouttoday, but agriculture,
(05:31):
personal electronics, medicaldevices right to repair spans
across all these differentindustries and I think you've
been touching pretty much all ofthose industries throughout
some of your research and thestuff that you've been talking
about online.
It's so nuanced.
Right, because we get asked alot of questions.
Well, hey, why isn't there justone right to repair bill across
all industries and not justautomotive, not just agriculture
?
And the answer is it'scomplicated, but there are
(05:54):
probably more commonalities thatmost people would think, and
it's just that authorized,certified repair just making
sure that the technicians arecertified and they're trained
Repairability should existacross all those industries.
Why would that be so different?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Absolutely?
I guess the answer would be doyou understand how laws get
passed in this country?
It's a scary thing and, yes, anomnibus repair bill makes total
sense, because there isn'treally a fundamental difference
between these issues.
As you look across, you know,kind of the problems as they're
(06:33):
passed, whether it'sagricultural equipment or
personal electronics orautomobiles, don't look
fundamentally different fromeach other.
They're just, you know,narrowed to, you know, cover a
(06:56):
certain type of device.
What it's reflective of, ofcourse, is the power of industry
and industry money to killlegislation that they don't like
.
And so, from a practicalstandpoint, as you guys know, if
you just cast a broad net withyour legislation, yeah, if it
(07:18):
passes, you've created a broadnew right, but you've also
picked a fight with a broadrange of powerful, well-financed
industries who are going to goto war with that.
And you know, try and get it,you know, killed off in
committee, which is whathappened in with, you know,
personal electronics right torepair bills for years, about
(07:39):
four years, before one finallypassed at the very end of 2022
in New York.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
And yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
There have been dozens of right-to-repair laws,
I guess, introduced across thestates over the past at least a
year.
Right Am I wrong?
Is it more than that?
Speaker 2 (07:54):
Yes, five, depending on how you count.
There have been five kind ofwhat I would say broad or
omnibus type electronics rightto repair bills passed.
The first, like I said, signedinto law by New York Governor
Kathy Hochul at the very end of2022, like December 30th or
something, 2022.
(08:16):
And then in 2023, minnesota andCalifornia passed actually more
toothy kind of powerfulelectronics right to repair
bills that covered a muchbroader range of devices.
And then this year we've seenOregon and Colorado pass also
(08:41):
pretty, pretty strongly worded,pretty powerful electronics
right to repair bills.
In the meantime, there have beenother bills passed as well.
Colorado actually leads thenation in passing right to
repair bills.
They, even before the personalelectronics bills passed.
They passed one covering powerwheelchairs to get people who
(09:02):
are, you know, rely on a powerwheelchair the ability to fix
their own device or get anindependent person to fix it.
And they passed one dedicatedto agricultural equipment as
well, the only one in thecountry at this point.
So there have been those aswell.
So, depending on how you count,that's five or seven.
If you count the auto right torepair bills in Massachusetts
(09:24):
and now Maine, it's nine.
So you know.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Yeah, and our, our bills.
I mean it's really good.
We we need more.
Obviously we need somethingfederally, nationwide, across
all these industries.
But we're so, we're so thrilledabout what had happened in
Massachusetts, the successesthat we've had in Maine and
trying to carry that momentum tothe rest of the states.
It was a really long and hardfought battle but you know, the
(09:50):
will of the consumer, theconstituent in the district,
prevailed.
I think about and I look at youknow news about right to repair
and other, even countries, andit seems like maybe Europe a
little bit in Asia they seemmore into repairability than the
states.
And why do you think that is?
Do you have any thoughts onthat?
(10:10):
Just curious.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Well, it's like yes and no, Like you're right, If
you look at kind ofcomprehensive legislation,
federal, what we would think ofas federal legislation.
The EU is way ahead of us onthis.
They passed a right to repairlaw that applies across the EU.
Now each member state needs toadopt it individually, but that
(10:34):
went into effect a few monthsago and it's pretty good.
It mandates a lot of stuffaround length of support that
you need to provide, needing toprovide, you know, replacement
parts, needing to, you know,allow people to, you know,
(10:56):
repair their stuff and so on.
On the other hand, it islimited to a subset of devices
and it is not comprehensive.
The language of the bill doesn'treally specify, as many of the
state laws in the US do, thatthe parts and tools that you
(11:20):
provide to do repair have to beprovided at an affordable price.
That leaves the door open formanufacturers to just jack up
the price and make it, you know,impractical.
So if you look at, if you lookat a law like Colorado or Oregon
passed right, or Californiaeven, or Minnesota those are
those are toothier and strongerreally than anything that's been
(11:42):
passed in the EU in terms termsof what they I mean Colorado
and Oregon specifically banthings like part pairing, part
serialization that companieslike Apple use to.
You know, bind a certain screento a certain iPhone body, so
you can't just take a brokenscreen off of one iPhone and
replace it with, you know, theworking screen from a similar
(12:03):
model.
I ban that as a practice.
Eu hasn't done that.
That said, you're right.
I feel like the conversationaround things like concepts like
circular economy not justreduce, reuse, recycle we should
really be focusing on the firsttwo of those, and recycling is
(12:24):
kind of a last resort, and Ifeel like the EU is much further
down the road in talking aboutthe need to move to an economy
that is circular than here inthe States.
I mean, gosh, we're in themiddle of a presidential
campaign.
I don't know if the wordcircular economy has made it
into any rally conversation, andit just is not.
(12:50):
It's just not on the radar here, yeah, even even though there
are plenty of groups and and andand people, individuals, who,
who are supportive of it who aresupportive of it.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Yeah, and it's.
I mean the word green, I feellike has been thrown around a
lot and like one could arguewhat, what the meaning of the
word green is Like.
I think reduce, reuse, recycle,repairability, those that, like
those, are synonymous withgreen.
So you know I just it kind ofblows my mind because because
right to repair really supportssome of that sustainability too.
We're just we're just notseeing it, or maybe we're not
(13:25):
emphasizing that as much as weshould.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
What's so funny about it, too, is it's such a
political winner.
I mean, you look atMassachusetts' update to its
2012 auto repair bill thatexpanded it to include
telematics right 2020 ballotmeasure almost 75, three
quarters of people voted for it74% and that was in the face of
(13:52):
tens of millions of dollars innegative advertising from the
automotive industry to kill it,to defeat it, did not matter.
Maine had a ballot measure in2023.
Frankly, the automotiveindustry didn't even bother run
ads because I think theyrealized like it doesn't matter.
Maine had a ballot measure thatin 2023, frankly, the
automotive industry didn't evenbother run ads because I think
they realized like it doesn'tmatter.
Like there's so much support forthese 83% of voters.
(14:13):
83% of voters voted yes.
So you're like man, if you're apolitician, how many issues are
you going to get 83% of peopleto vote for?
And like this is one of them.
Like I just don't understandwhy you're not like jumping on
that, being like I'm just gonnaride this horse all the way, you
know, to the finish line.
Yeah, because it is somethingwith bipartisan support red,
(14:37):
blue, left, right like peoplejust consumers, business owners
just absolutely see the need forit and support these laws who
doesn't support.
It is the kind of, you know,corporate interests that have
determined that.
You know this is a threat toour business model.
But yeah, I mean it's not apart of our conversation right
(15:01):
now politically.
I don't really understand why.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
We have.
We have really big hopes forthe next administration and you
know we're we're so close withwith this federal bill, hr 906,
the repair act.
I think it's got nearly 60co-sponsors, completely
bipartisan.
You know, a no, a nowhere's arcstrategy if you will right One
on each side all the way down.
(15:26):
Tons of support, but we'rerunning out of time.
I think September is the lastchance that we have to get this
bill to the floor for a vote.
You know we're really hopingfor that support.
We just need a gust of wind.
So you know, if anybodylistening can help us get that
floor to a vote, you know like.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
This is our plea, right?
This is our last chance beforewe got to start this all over
again.
Yeah, call your rep, it is.
I mean, I had the honor oftestifying in front of the house
committee subcommittee that wasthat was considering that bill
July of 2023.
I had a hearing on right.
You know what is?
Is there a right to repair?
I think it was the name of thehearing, but the repair act was
kind of front and center forthat hearing and, um, you know,
like I've said there, if youwatch that hearing, it's very
hard to tell who's democrat,who's republican.
(16:12):
There seemed to be just ageneral attitude of support and,
and, lo and behold, the billmade it out of that subcommittee
, um, and, and went to the fullum, uh, house committee, uh, and
it was energy and commerce, um,but it's sitting there.
And this House Committee Energyand Commerce, but it's sitting
there.
And this happens so often.
I think it's part of the reasonpeople get a little cynical
(16:33):
sometimes is because, yeah, yougot a bill here with a lot of
support, bipartisan support,consumers support it.
So why isn't it?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
becoming law.
Yeah yeah, there's a lot ofotherworldly powers.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Maybe that makes people, that makes people
cynical.
I mean it does like OK, sosomebody's got a veto here who
you know isn't an elected repand isn't a voter, so you know.
But so, but I do feel like ifvoters really get clear like we
want to see this thing get done,you know write the email, make
(17:08):
the phone call.
You know show up to the local.
You know when your reps comeback home to you know, talk to
people.
You know, make it clear that itmatters to you.
I mean my, my reps areCatherine Clark and and
Elizabeth Warren in the Senate,so I'm preaching, preaching to
(17:32):
the choir, but you know, not notafraid to bring it.
You know it.
Sometimes it's just about, hey,bring this, bring this to your
attention and making it clearthat it needs to be on your
docket.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, and Elizabeth Warren
did, did some great work.
She was, you know, questioningNHTSA and some of the agencies
about their statements on rightto repair.
She's visited repair shops tohear directly from them about
the issue.
So we do appreciate that andthose are important steps
towards getting a resolutionreally important steps, this
case in mass.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
We pass that law in 2020 and it got, you know,
challenged in court, went tothis judge and it's been sitting
there for three years.
Basically Hasn't been anyaction of any kind in almost a
year.
It really is.
It's hard to wrap your headaround what's been happening
here, and the in massachusettsis very complex because, you
(18:25):
know, our, our new attorneygeneral, andrew campbell, is
enforcing the law, right, um,but there's, but automakers have
been saying, well, we're notgoing to comply with it.
You know, because there is noclear ruling from the courts, uh
, even for them to appeal, umand um.
So it's, it's, it's just kindof a messy situation and, yeah,
um, you know we'll, it's, it'sjust kind of a messy situation
(18:46):
and, um, you know we'll, we'llsee what happens with it.
Hopefully we'll get a decisionout of that court sometime soon.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
I mean it's very clear that that the will of the
people definitely prevails whenit comes to passing the laws.
You know, we can get a littlediscouraged Sometimes.
We say you know, themanufacturers are just trying to
delay.
Delay, deny, distort, that'sthe three Ds.
And anytime a law gets passed,whether it's automotive or other
industries, there seems to besome sort of interference.
(19:14):
They come in, they try tochange some of the original
parts of the law to be a littlebit more in favor of what they
want.
I think we saw that with JohnDeere, maybe a little bit with
that electronics bill in NewYork, and then we had some
interference in automotive inMaine as well.
So what, what's your take onthat?
And is there any way to avoidthat?
Because it blows my mind thatyou could pass a law that people
(19:37):
say this is what I voted for,and then, after it gets passed,
it's like well, we're going tochange just a couple little
minor things that maybe aren'tso minor to some of us.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Yeah, absolutely, you know, I think it's it's it's
part of the democratic processthat sometimes laws get passed
that that do need to, that haveunintended consequences and do
need to be revised time, but totry and do that before the law
(20:08):
has even taken effect and you'veidentified those problems, yeah
, I mean that did happen back in2012 with the original auto
repair law, where thelegislature kind of modified it
before it was finally, you know,you know, enacted, which you
know has been okay in the last12 years.
(20:28):
But you know, you know, I think, in general, yeah, we need, you
know, I think we need a way to,you know, I really feel like
this is just a matter of, youknow, people being able to, you
know, connect with theirrepresentatives and make it
(20:51):
clear what their priorities areand what their needs are.
And you know, I do think thatyou know, lawmakers, both at the
state and federal level, hear alot from you know, lobbyists
and industry representatives andso on.
It is harder to hear from thesmall independent repair shop or
(21:11):
auto body shop, because youknow they're working all week
long, or auto body shop becauseyou know they're working all
week long.
You know they don't have thetime on a Wednesday afternoon to
go spend four hours at thestatehouse talking to
representatives, and thatdynamic, I think, really affects
the way these conversationshappen and it can make the needs
(21:32):
of those small business ownersor families or whatever kind of
diminish.
I'd like to think there's a fixfor that.
I don't know, I don't know whatit is, but I would really like,
like you said, I would reallylove to see some changes that
make it easier for you know,representatives, whether at the
state or federal level, toconnect with and hear from their
constituents, definitely at thefederal level I mean, whether
at the state or federal level toconnect with and hear from
(21:56):
their constituents.
Definitely at the federal level, I mean at the state level.
I feel like it's it's a littleless of an issue definitely at
the federal level.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Absolutely.
I mean, we saw hundreds ofrepair shops talking to their
legislators, hosting them in theshop itself, having their
employees talk to them, or goingto their office.
And you know, I get it.
It can be intimidating.
Maybe I don't want to getinvolved in politics, I don't
want to seem like I'm on aparticular side or I don't know
what I'm supposed to say to alegislator, right, Like that's
(22:25):
really intimidating.
But when you, when you start toexplain to people, it's not
about what side of the aisleyou're on, it's about what does
this mean to you, what does itmean to your business and what
does it affect?
You know, you, you humanize it.
You humanize it a lot.
Do you?
Do you drive a car?
Yeah, Do you want to be able to?
You know, get in your car andget to the place where you need
to go, Um cost effectively andefficiently, yeah, Okay.
(22:48):
So that's what my business doesand this law hurts my business.
So things like that are very,you know, education that we're
trying to give to people andreally get down to that
grassroots level to keep thismovement going where it needs to
go.
So, absolutely, Do you think?
I mean the bills that havepassed so far.
(23:09):
We've seen automotive, we'veseen electronics and we've seen
agriculture.
Were there any likecommonalities between any of
those that you think made themso successful?
Because I think, likecybersecurity probably came up
in all of them, right?
And the manufacturer said, well, someone's going to hack this
cell phone, someone's going tohack this tractor, someone's
going to hack this car.
But ultimately those argumentswere defeated, right?
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yes, they were.
They were, you know, in somecases, like I'm thinking about
Minnesota's law and New York'slaw, you know there were some
last minute additions to thoselaws, kind of language thrown in
at the very last minute to kindof, you know, accede to what I
think are basically kind ofbaseless arguments around
(23:56):
cybersecurity.
You know so.
But by and large, yes, thosearguments didn't win the day as
they did for, you know, thepreceding years.
They didn't result in the billdying in committee.
You know, honestly, I think whatdistinguishes each of the bills
that passed was that in each ofthose states you had reps or
(24:22):
senators, or both bill sponsorswho were willing to stick their
neck out and put politicalcapital on the line and
basically see these thingsthrough.
They not only sponsored the bill, they really believed in it and
they, they burned somepolitical capital.
They, you know they, they gotit done and I think that is the
(24:46):
commonality between, you know,diverse states, like you know,
new York, minnesota, colorado,oregon, california, like you
know, was just that, having asponsor or sponsors who just saw
it through and got it done.
Use your connections, use yourexperience to to, to, you know,
(25:08):
settle those questions, to tampdown the what ifs and, oh my God
, it's going to be a disaster,and just see it through.
That's both encouraging and andsobering because, as you know,
in a given state, you know, orgiven legislature, you might not
have that person who has boththe connections um and but also
(25:35):
the political will and kind ofpassion to get it done.
And if you don't have thatperson then the chances of that
bill languishing or dying incommittee are much higher.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
I mean, when we you know youtalk to legislators and you
learn more about what else isimportant to them, and they've
got other constituents who arearguing on other sides of the
coin.
So trying to understand bothsides of this coin, both sides
of the story, can be reallydifficult.
And, yeah, them supporting yourbill could be political suicide
(26:08):
for them, but it's important tothe people and what is right
for all of the people in theirdistrict, right?
Speaker 2 (26:16):
Yeah, I think there's a familiarity issue too, and I
think that's why we saw years offailure, failure, failure,
failure, and then, all of asudden, this switch in 2022,
2023, like all of a sudden, oh,we're getting bills passed.
And I think some of that isjust legislators getting
familiar with this issue and notbeing, like right to repair,
like what you know, kind ofunderstanding what the what the
(26:38):
bill is about, um, having theconversations that they're going
to have, both pro and con, andsettling on you know whether
they're for or against it orwhether it's important for them
or not, um, and so I do thinkthat there is a, you know, time
is on our side, in that way oflike the more every year that
these get reintroduced,legislators have to engage with
(26:59):
it, get a little bit morecomfortable with it, maybe also
start to understand theconsequences of not doing
anything.
That we're seeing in stateslike Massachusetts.
Or we're seeing them withhigher repair costs for vehicles
.
We're seeing them with, youknow, higher repair costs for
vehicles.
We're seeing them with thisproblem of abandonware and brick
(27:19):
devices.
You know, you bought a smartdevice 18 months ago, you know
the Spotify car thing, and now,all of a sudden, it's basically
a $300 paperweight, you know,and you're like how did that
happen?
So some of the you know,technology is driving change
really quickly.
Legislation moves really slowlyand I think it can be sometimes
(27:52):
hard for to get past the waitwhat are you talking about and
what is this?
And get to the like okay, youknow, here's what I support.
Here are my conditions.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Exactly, and I think that's that's probably the
reason why I'm so happy that somany other industries you know,
unfortunately, they're dealingwith right to repair.
But because they're dealingwith right to repair, they've
heard about it in some otherindustry.
So it used to be that you wouldgo and have a conversation on
the Hill and talk about right torepair and they're like what?
But now we go into offices andwe talk about it and they're
(28:26):
like, oh, you mean tractors,right?
We're like, no, the cars,please the cars and the trucks.
But the familiarity with it isdefinitely increasing thanks to
all these other industries thathave been going through it.
So, you know, a rising tideraises all boats and, you know,
while it's an issue, it's a goodthing that we're able to
surface this issue and make itmuch more prevalent.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
And cars are kind of the canary in the coal mine for
this right I mean auto, autoright to repair was the first
right to repair law of any kindin this country, in
Massachusetts, back in 2012.
So, in some ways, cars launchedthis whole conversation, the
auto industry launched thiswhole conversation, and I do
think, as you know, this is amuch bigger conversation than
(29:10):
just your right to fix your owncar like the types of exclusive,
you know monopolisticecosystems that manufacturers
would are certainly looking tocreate where, hey, it's a walled
garden and we're the onlycompany that can access, service
(29:30):
, maintain, update, repair thisdevice, because, oh, hackers or,
oh you know, you can't trustindependent repair people like
that ecosystem.
That business model could veryeasily be replicated from cars
to agricultural, to medicaldevices, to home appliances, to
you name it, and if we allow itto, it will.
But that's going to be adisaster for consumers and a
(29:52):
disaster for our economy and adisaster for the environment.
And so, you know, I do feel,when I talk to legislators, the
need to sort of call out likethis train is coming down the
track and this is not aconversation that's limited to
cars or agricultural equipment.
Cars or agricultural equipmentLike this could affect every
(30:19):
corner of our economy and havehuge costs for us if we don't,
you know, enact the types ofsmart laws as we did a hundred
years ago.
Right, the smart aroundaviation or automobiles or
whatever, to make sure that thisis.
You know, that this technologycontinues to serve people and
serve all of us, not enslave us.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yeah, yeah, we don't want to live in iRobot.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
We do not.
We do not, yeah, so yeah.
Or there's a movie, Brazil,that I did a talk at DEF CON a
couple of years back that kindof picked up on the Brazil theme
, the Terry Gilliam film aboutthe you know air conditioner
repair, you know rogue airconditioner repairman, you know.
In this sort of dystopianfuture, so, yeah, I mean there
(31:03):
are all kinds of kind ofdystopian visions of what that
future could look like, and ourjob is to not make those a
reality, exactly.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
This is DTP IT Director and Sustainability
Committee Staff Liaison at AutoCare Association.
Are you passionate aboutshaping our industry's future?
Join an Auto Care AssociationAdvisory Committee and make a
real impact as a volunteer.
You will drive innovation,tackle key challenges and
collaborate on cutting-edgesolutions for the entire supply
(31:34):
chain.
Don't miss out.
Join us at our upcomingLeadership Days event to start
making a difference.
Learn more at AutoCareorg slashLeadership Days and find
information on currentcommittees at AutoCareorg slash
committees.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
So I'm really glad that you mentioned that
automotive kind of set theprecedent back.
Set the precedent, theprecedent, back in 2012, when
the first right to repair lawwas passed and that was in
Massachusetts, massachusetts.
It's 12 years later and here,you know, here we are again with
auto.
We've got all these otherindustries that are making
headway.
Do you think that there's anyother industry that is going to
(32:12):
set a precedent for the future,for the next 10 years, for the
next 20 years?
Or do you think you know it's,it's whoever's first to the game
?
Speaker 2 (32:21):
That is a great question.
So you know, like you, I reallyhope that our lawmakers and
policymakers see the forest anddon't get too focused on the
trees.
We need comprehensive new laws,regulations that govern all
(32:46):
manner of software-drivenconnected smart devices, because
these problems stretch acrossall different product categories
.
I do think that the battlewe're seeing right now over
connected vehicles is at theforefront.
(33:08):
I think the conversation is themost advanced around smart
connected cars, both in terms ofservice and repair.
Also in terms of you know, whattypes of data are these devices
connecting, collecting?
How are automakers, you know,using or repurposing or
modifying, monetizing that data?
Those are all conversations Ithink apply equally well to all
(33:32):
manner of other devices, but theconversation is very pointed
right now in the automotivesector.
So automotive is again thecanary in the coal mine.
I think automotive is wherewe're going to see the earliest
battles around this other devicecategories or areas where I
(33:54):
think you know you'll also see alot of attention and probably
regulatory focus.
Obviously you know havingoptions to repair his or her
iPhone or whatever Like they getit.
So I think that's going to beone.
(34:16):
You know things like kitchenappliances and so on, for sure
People understand that.
You know, in terms oflegislation and speaking,
putting my cybersecurity hat on,in terms of some of the other
issues that have come up aswe're amidst, you know, in this
(34:39):
conversation aroundrepairability, serviceability,
you know, resilience, you knowmedical devices are one where I
think, from a policy perspective, we've done the most or
furthest down the road in termsof really trying to put some
(35:00):
hard lines around and somestructure around things.
Issues, important issues likesoftware security and software
integrity and secure design,secure deployment.
Medical devices and the FDA areway out in front of the rest of
the government on that.
Really, I'd love to see thosesame types of you know policies
(35:24):
applied across all differenttypes of product.
You know products because rightnow it's real Wild West.
You make a software product thatyou sell to people, whether
it's businesses or individuals.
There really are no laws orregulations that tell you that.
You know it's got to be secure.
The software has to be of highquality.
(35:45):
Here's what your responsibilityis to support it and maintain
it.
It's you know.
Again, you could sell a smartconnected product to somebody
for 300, 400, $500.
Six months later you can brickit.
You can basically say, oh, I'mdone, I'm not going to, you know
, shutting down the server?
Sorry, bring it to your localrecycling center.
Oh my God, there's no law,there's nothing that says you
(36:08):
can't do that to a consumer.
And consumers are like what areyou talking about?
I spent $500 for that.
It's like oh well, yeah, I'msorry it doesn't.
You know, we looked at thenumbers and it says the products
aren't really selling the waywe wanted it to.
So it's insane.
It's insane and it's just.
It's a reflection of the factthat, hey, man, you know,
software is driving changes inthe economy and in the consumer
(36:31):
space that have gotten way aheadof the regulations that we have
around warranties and thingslike that, that all go back to
the 70s and stuff.
So there need to be changes,there need to be updates that
just reflect the new reality ofbuying stuff.
So, you know, I do think I lookat medical devices and I'm like
(36:53):
that's where we're seeing,that's where we've seen some
laws that that are veryforward-looking and or at least
modern, but we need to get themapplied to other types of stuff
as well, including includingautomobiles.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Honestly, yeah, and that?
So technology is not going toslow down, it's only going to
increase every single day.
You've created something inresponse to this for the future,
something called SERF.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
The website secure-resilientorg.
So this is a advocacy groupthat we set up, kind of an
outgrowth of secure repairs, butreally focused not just on
right to repair but on thebroader issue of needing to
foster both cybersecurity andresilience and, and you know
(37:50):
which includes repairability andmaintainability, and you know,
the ability to continue reusingstuff, to sell it and exchange
ownership and all this stuffthat we sort of take for granted
.
But I love that that we that wecan take for granted in the
current environment.
Yeah, so surf is is an advocacygroup really for the
(38:11):
cybersecurity community to havea seat at that policy table and,
to you know, use our voice andour knowledge and expertise to
help policymakers create andpass, you know, forward looking
smart legislation.
One of the issues that we'refocused on, kind of out of the
(38:32):
gate we're only a few months oldis around bricked and abandoned
devices.
Some people call abandonware,just as I said, the ability of
manufacturers to just walk awayfrom smart devices, and we saw
that actually just last week, Ithink, with Amazon kind of just
(38:52):
saying that it was discontinuingthis photo subscription for one
of its Alexa devices and youknow which is basically the
whole reason that people wouldhave bought this device.
You know just, we need policies, laws, regulations that protect
consumers from that type ofabuse or harm.
(39:14):
Yeah, we saw it with theSpotify, we've seen it with
Sonos speakers, all kinds ofthings.
It potentially could be comingto you know a car dealership
near you where you, you know,spend an extra $2,000 for a you
know I don't know some smartseat feature or something like
that.
And then the manufacturer saysyeah, we're not supporting that.
(39:38):
Sorry, we're shutting downthose servers.
It's going away.
Could?
you imagine yeah, so we'refocused on that issue, but
others as well, including yeah,just how do we clean up this
software space?
How do we get the organizations, the companies making smart
(39:58):
connected stuff, to emphasizethings like resilience,
cybersecurity, data security,produce high quality, longevity,
reusability, right, and sothat's what we're about.
Speaker 1 (40:16):
I mean there was a time where you would buy a
product and you know peoplewould brag about how long it
lasted, and you don't.
You don't hear thoseconversations anymore.
I love that you brought this up.
I had a security camera in myhouse and I got an email and it
said you know this, this camerahas reached its end of life, the
software is no longer supported.
And I got an email and it saidyou know this, this camera has
reached its end of life, thesoftware is no longer supported.
And I went what are you mean?
(40:37):
The camera works, there'snothing wrong with it.
But now you're telling me it'sgoing to stop functioning.
Oh, by the way, here's adiscount on the new cameras.
And I thought no, freaking waylike this is not okay.
And I can't imagine driving acar off the lot and having paid
for something and then at oneday it's not supported anymore
and I lose a feature or the caris bricked and abandoned.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
Like that is a dystopian future one of the
things that surf is going tohelp to try and work out is what
is the proper policy responseto that Right?
So you can be pretty sure youknow whether that's um, uh.
(41:18):
You know some requirement onhow long you support a device
and also some notion of a whatone of our board members, tara
Wheeler, calls a gracefulhandoff.
So if you, as a company, makethe decision that is yours to
make as to whether you want tocontinue supporting a product or
not, that's fine.
But if you're not going tosupport, if you're walking away
from it, here's what you need todo right.
(41:39):
To make it right with yourcustomers.
To make it right with you knowthe community, whether that's
open sourcing the software,whether it's designating a third
party to come in and continuemaintenance and upkeep as you
walk away.
As I look at it now, you know ifyou're a company deciding.
You know smart product, dumbproduct.
(42:01):
You know what do we design andyou know what do we want to do.
There's really nothing on thedon't make it smart side of the
scales.
Right, the don't make it smartside of the scales right.
I mean you can make a smartproduct, have recurring revenue
via monthly subscriptions have awhole bunch of cool smart
features that are going to makeit more saleable to the public,
(42:22):
and then, on the no side,there's nothing.
You can brick it in six months.
If it doesn't work out, youhave no obligation to your
customers, you can just walkaway from it.
So why not make it smart With amore balanced approach?
They might say, well, listen,okay, we want to make this
toaster a smart toaster, but ifwe make it a smart toaster,
(42:46):
we're going to need to do X, yand Z.
We're going to need to supportthe software for eight years.
We're going to need to have a,you know, clean handoff after we
end support to a third party ormake it open source.
You know, make the softwareopen source, we're going to have
to continue providing, you know, parts and diagnostic software
and updates for, you know, thisperiod of time.
And so now, okay, now we'relooking at, you know, I don't
(43:07):
know, maybe we'll just make itdumb, you know?
Or yeah, we'll make it smart,but we'll understand what our
obligations are.
We have rights to walk awayfrom it, but we have
responsibilities too, and rightnow that there is no, that that
(43:29):
conversation doesn protectedcommunities are protected.
Governments are protected fromthe downside of just companies
just walking away fromthemselves.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
It doesn't seem like an unreasonable conversation.
It doesn't.
It should be simple.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Look at every industry, look at every industry
that we rely on.
Look at the aviation industry,right, and all the regulations
you know.
Or the automotive industry, allthe regulations that we have
had to implement over thedecades to make those safe,
reliable, high quality, you know, to protect consumers, to
protect the public.
And so we've seen this moviebefore.
(44:12):
What's changed, I think, isjust the rate of change and
evolution, and you know just theway that technology and the
Internet and now AI, are justaccelerating that.
Yeah, and that's reallychallenging for, you know, for
any organization, any government.
You know, again, the policyconversations tend to happen a
(44:32):
lot more slowly, but the changeis happening really quickly.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Yeah, it is, and it's not going to stop.
So this is why it's I mean,it's so important.
We're so thankful for peoplewho are passionate like you and
all the other folks at SecurityLedger.
What you're doing at SURF itincredibly important.
So the more people, the morevoices we have, the more experts
on this, the better, and umlike, we thank you for your
(44:56):
passion and all the time thatyou give to all of these
industries.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
It it matters to a lot more people then well, let
me let me throw it back to youand say I'm really thankful for
the auto care association andall you all have done to support
right to repair, not not onlywith automobiles.
But you know, the efforts thatyou have made I think have had
spillover effects outside of theautomotive industry.
So I'll throw that back to youand say thanks for your work.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
It's a historical time for sure, and it will
continue.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Yeah, huge changes going on and and you know
changes beget these types ofconversations, you know.
You know where you have peoplewho are saying, hey, we need to
put some guardrails in here andwe need to kind of protect
people, protect consumers andprotect the environment.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
And that's what's happening, yeah, yeah.
So, paul, where can folks findyou if they want to connect with
you?
They want to subscribe to yousocial media.
I want to make sure everybodyhas a chance to see some of the
work that you're doing and alsoget involved.
Speaker 2 (45:58):
OK, if you're a security professional
cybersecurity professional,information security
professional, IT professionalcheck out secure repairs dot org
.
I got my URL right there on myname and join us.
I got my URL right there on myname and join us.
Add your name to our list andwe will reach out to you if
we've got hearings happening inyour state and you can, you can
help out both on the auto repairside and electronics repair as
(46:21):
well.
So if you're an IT cyber policy, secure, the secure, resilient
future foundation, secure dashresilient dot org is where you
(46:44):
should go.
And if you want to follow theright to repair conversation,
fight to repairnews isa substack that I help edit and we'll
send.
We do like a weekly newsnewsletter that just provides
all the links to cool right torepair stories that are
happening around and we do someoriginal reporting and
(47:05):
podcasting as well.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
The sub stack is phenomenal, if I might say so.
So please, please, please,subscribe.
It's definitely worth the time.
Paul, thank you so much fortaking the time to be here.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Stacey, I really, really appreciate it and look
forward to coming back.
And hey, man, we get repair act.
I'll come back and do a littleend zone dance here with you.
Happy to do that, let's do itFingers crossed.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Absolutely, but call your representative, call your
senator, let's get this done.
Autocare OnAir is a productionof the AutoCare Association
dedicated to advancing the autocare industry and supporting
professionals like you.
To learn more about theassociation and its initiatives,
visit autocareorg.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.