Rome Has Spoken: The Most Contested Encyclical in the Modern Church | Immortale Dei - Avoiding Babylon

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:31):
If you have ever prayed the Saint Michael prayer,
you have prayed words written bythe Pope in this episode.
And according to the traditionof the Church, he wrote them
because of something he heard.
On October the thirteenth,eighteen eighty-four, after
offering Mass in the Vatican,Pope Leo XIII suddenly went
pale.
Witnesses say he collapsed atthe foot of the altar, and he

(00:53):
looked, for a moment, almostlifeless.
When he recovered, he told themwhat he had heard a conversation
between God and Satan, whereSatan boasted that, given enough
time and enough power, he coulddestroy the church.
Then he heard our Lord grant therequest and give Satan a sentry
for the forces of hell to dotheir worst.

(01:15):
Now this is of course privaterevelation and no one is bound
to believe it.
But here's what is not indispute.
Shortly after this mysticalexperience, Leo, who was
convinced that the crisis aroundhim was not merely political but
also demonic, did something morethan write a prayer.
He sat down and wrote aconstitution.
Not a constitution for thechurch, but instead for the

(01:39):
state.
He called it Immortality Day.

SPEAKER_02 (02:30):
I'm just look, I had a rough couple days, but um
reading this encyclical washard.
Yeah.
Uh well, first off, it was oneof my favorites.
Um by far, like one of myfavorites.
Like I was like, holy cow,because you think to like um
Pope Paul the Sixth writing umuh Humani Vitae, and and you'll

(02:56):
hear like modern Catholics belike, it was prophetic, it was
prophetic.
It was not a big thing.
You go back and you read humanivita, and it's the weakest, like
barely it's just I mean, it getsthe point across, right?
I guess.
But when you read thisencyclical, like almost

(03:17):
everything uh Pope Leo the 13thwrote was prophetic, first off,
like truly prophetic.
And it's it's it makes me angrythat he was never canonized.
Um, if I ever have a blessedlike Pius the Ninth.
If I ever have a dire situationin my life, I will be praying to
Pope Leo the 14th, uh 13th, PopeLeo the 13th for his

(03:42):
intercession because like thethe holiness just drips through
his writing, you know, and andhis aching for the church and
his aching for the world.
And everything he wrote was soprophetic, and it's just every
single warning he gives in thisencyclical was ignored, not just

(04:02):
by the state, but by the church,and it's just it was it's rough,
man, because I mean not justignored, you could say
potentially like even turned onits head over.
Yeah, and it's like when whenyou read this one, you're like,
man, I would I would die a happymartyr for this pope.

(04:23):
You know, like I would I wouldlay down my life for this pope
because he's just he's just he'sjust amazing, man.
I don't know.
It's uh I don't know.
The hard part of this episode isgoing to be not to read the
entire encyclical because it'sjust banger after banger
paragraph and have the wholelast four pages highlighted, I
think.
It's it's dude, it opens uptalking about like Christian

(04:47):
civilization or pagancivilization in the early church
and how their punishment, youknow, like and it's like, but if
you if you if you if you believethat and you view that and say,
yeah, God was giving the paganstheir joke, because the the
people had always said like thechurch was the cause of the fall
of the Roman Empire, and he'slike, Well, no, it the fall of

(05:10):
the Roman Empire was achastisement by God for their
unfit, you know, for their forfor their or persecuting the
church, persecuting the churchand for just being wicked
pagans.
And when you if you reallybelieve that, then you have to
see what's happening now as likewe're on we're on course for
another chastisement because ofwhat we're doing, you know.

(05:32):
But um, yeah, and that thatvision that Leo had.
It's just it just like just eventhe even the fact that like
where do you know where the lorecomes from?
Like where where the legendcomes from?
The actual source for yeah, likeis that does anybody ever know
the source or is it when likedid it was that like a

(05:54):
post-consiliar uh trad thing,like where we invented it, you
know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 (06:01):
Well, I mean, uh, so I yeah, I don't know where the
story itself comes from.
Um, I mean, he did write theSaint Michael prayers, right?
And there's multiple, there'sthe shorter version for the
laity and a couple longerversions for use in actual
exorcism.
So, like the pr the obviouslythe prayer exists, and he did

(06:21):
write it and he mandated itbeing Sid Um after church.
So, but uh as far as the reasonwe've been told for why the
prayer was written, I I honestlydon't know where that actual
source directly comes from.

SPEAKER_02 (06:36):
I I remember when um when uh Taylor wrote
Infiltration, he said hecouldn't find original sources
for it.
Right.
He couldn't find originalsources for that, and he
couldn't find original sourcesfor the quote about them uh uh
Pope Pius XII saying, uh I youknow they I have I I see them

(06:56):
tearing down the altars andthing, you know, whatever quote
that was.
That was the yeah, there's no hecouldn't find sources for that
one either.
But um, yeah, it's just uh thatyeah, this is a tough one.
Um all right, so tonight onlocals, we have so much stuff to
do on locals tonight.
Like we have to, we have I thinkwe should play Leo's clip of

(07:21):
what he said about the SSPX.
Um we have, I think during thisepisode, maybe we play the Vance
clip, Vance being asked aboutPope Leo because it's kind of
pertinent to like relationsbetween church and state.
But then we also have um there'sso much drama going in the Ortho
Bro world right now with likeJay Dyer stepping down and all

(07:43):
that stuff.
But there was an Orthodox priestI saw that's uh Stephen DeYoung.
Yeah, he wrote about FatherStephen DeYoung, Father Josiah,
whatever his name, Trenham,whatever his name is, uh
Peugeot, and Jay Dyer.
And he had some reallyinteresting things to say,
especially about Father FatherJosiah's fake accent.

(08:04):
It's kind of funny, it's kind offunny.
Um, but yeah, so we're probablygonna all right.
So we're gonna cover orthocontroversy, um, Pope Pope Leo
addressing the SSPX.
Vance.
What else?
JD Vance, JD Vance, but maybe dohere, but no, I have like a
whole bunch of other like it'sgonna be a packed local show

(08:25):
tonight.
So we'll try and get throughthis one in a in an hour if we
can.
We'll see how that goes becausethis uh this is I mean, all
right, so and also we're doingrarum Navarum next, right, Rob.

SPEAKER_03 (08:37):
Yeah, yeah, unless you wanted to do Lib uh
Libratas, but I I think I thinkit's time to hit I think it's
time to hit Rare Mavarum.

SPEAKER_02 (08:45):
Now, Rob Rob had suggested maybe breaking that
into two episodes because thisone I feel like should have been
two episodes, probably.

SPEAKER_03 (08:51):
But rare, so this one is a little longer than the
ones we've been doing, but nottoo bad.
Rare Mavarum is about 20% longerthan this one, but also like you
know, to really get into rareNavarum, we're gonna have to
talk about communism, socialism,capitalism, labor unions.
You know, there's there's maybenot as much history, but there's

(09:12):
a lot more context to talk aboutthan what we've been doing.
So we might have to do like ahis history and context episode
and then a whole separateepisode on the actual
encyclical.

SPEAKER_02 (09:24):
Yeah, it's uh man.
Well, either way, we're gonna doRare Navarum next.
So if you guys want to read up,that's where we're gonna go.
Um, I have some news.
I'm uh going to be bringing inNick Knacks to my company
tomorrow because all of the guysI work with suck and they all
need a little bit of apick-me-up.
Uh, I lost my mind this morningon the job and screamed at

(09:45):
everybody because they all suck.
And tomorrow they're gonna havea little bit of nicotine to put
a little pep in their step.
So if you also would like tohave a little nicotine and pep
in your step, go tonicknack.com, use code AB25% for
25% off your first purchase, usecode AB10 for 10% off all
subsequent purchases.
Nicknacks is a nicotine product,nicotine is an addictive
substance, but that's going tobe the point as I throw these at

(10:09):
my men tomorrow if they piss meoff.

SPEAKER_03 (10:11):
Well, so it's a good then that they uh Nick Knack
emailed me today and said if wewanted to have them send us
more, they would.
So they're they're going to haveto can can we put uh flavor
requests in?
Because I'm you just tell themwhat you want, what you want.

SPEAKER_02 (10:24):
Yeah, tell them I mean I I I'm out of um what was
it, tangerine that we loved?
Well, no, no, no, no, no.
I just like all the citrus ones,man.
I do like all the citrus ones,but great.
My favorite is my favorite.
I'm out of that one, and uh, Iwould really, I would, I would
like to get some more of those.
So um Bobby says, uh, oh, yeah,so go to Nick now.

(10:45):
And also, I may just beat all mymen with my um Black Monk
Rosary.
So go to blackmonkrosary.com.
Black Monk Rosary, first off,um, graduations are coming up.
Great graduation presents,right?

SPEAKER_03 (10:59):
I got to uh pray the rosary on a black monk rosary
this weekend at uh at my uncle'sbedside a couple hours before he
died.
So oof.
Well, and it was the it was theum luminous mysteries.
I assume.
Absolutely not, no.
Come on, I was gonna say it wason the uh uh Memento Mori

(11:24):
Rosary, so it was perfect.

SPEAKER_02 (11:26):
Luminous mysteries for sure.
No, all right.
Go to uh black book rosaries anduh use code Avoiding Babylon to
get 10% off at checkout.
Bobby, this is uh actually apretty cool comment because
we're the new Rome waiting to bechastised.
We made peace with the Persiansand had a gladiator fight at the
Emperor's Palace on hisbirthday.
Uh Pope Leo actually talks aboutus defeating the Mohammedans in

(11:48):
this encyclical.
It's just such a wildly goodencyclical, man.
So, all right, Rob, why don'tyou take us through the
historical context and thenlet's dig into this thing?

SPEAKER_03 (11:56):
Okay.
So if uh all of you who've beenwith us through the series so
far, you already know a lotabout Leo the 13th, and you
probably are starting to seekind of what he's doing with his
pontificate.
But just to remind anyone orcatch anyone up, uh, in episode
four, we did Attorney Patras.
That's when Leo the Thirteenthrearmed the Catholic mind by

(12:17):
bringing back Aquinas andrebuilding the church's
intellectual foundation.
That was kind of his first hisfirst move.
And the episode after that,episode five, we did Humanum
Genus, where he names the enemy,the enemy, Freemasonry, and he
pulls apart their wholephilosophy and all the secret
societies, and he shows thechurch how the city of man is
being built around them.

(12:38):
So that's his second move.
And now, in this episode, andwhich uh in with Immortality Day
comes out in 1885, comes histhird move, and it's wasn't just
enough to rebuild the Catholicmind and to name the enemy.
Um, at some point, you have toanswer the question that that
enemy is forcing upon you, andthe question is what's the

(12:58):
alternative?
Um, if the liberal, secular,religiously neutral state is
wrong, and Leo the 13th hadspent his entire pontificate
arguing that it was, then what'sright?
You know, what does a nationlook like when it's correct?
And Immortality Day is Leo'sanswer.
It is the most positive, mostconstructive document we've done

(13:20):
in the entire series so far.
You know, if episodes one andthrough one through three, um,
you know, which was what MirariVoss, uh, uh Quanticura and the
syllabus, and then I forget whatepisode three was.
But if those were the churchgetting knocked down, um,
episodes four, five, and sixhere are the church getting back

(13:41):
up.
Um, and this is the one wherethe church, you know, basically
says this is how how how it'ssupposed to be done, how states
should be run.
Um, but to understand why it hadto be written, we have to kind
of look back at the pressure Leowas under in 1885.
By this point, he'd been aprisoner in the Vatican for 15
years.
The Papal States were gone.

(14:03):
Um, and across the you know,what was the Catholic world, the
government after government wererunning the same Masonic
playbook, basically, you know,with the playbook Humanum Genus
just exposed.
In France, the Third Republicwas secularizing the nation,
stripping the Catholic ordersout of the schools, secularizing
education top to bottom, drivingthe faith out of public life by

(14:24):
law.
In Italy, obviously, the statehad seized Rome, but it
continues to treat the church asbest as just a private club.
Um, in Germany, Bismarck's uhKulturkampf had only just
started to wind down after yearsof arresting arresting bishops
and seminar closing seminaries.
And uh underneath all of it ran,of course, the philosophy we've

(14:45):
been talking about liberalism,not in like the American
political sense, but as the likethe total theory of society.

SPEAKER_02 (14:53):
And and and and essentially, like the the
principles in which America wasfounded, like yeah, like all the
things he's he's addressing arethe principles in which America
is founded, and the principlesin which all of us who went to
public school were taught werethese amazing things like
freedom of religion, freedom ofspeech, all these like all of

(15:13):
these things, he sees that theywill become the ruin of society,
and he's just and when we'rewe're gonna talk a little bit
about America uh prior to thisencyclical.

SPEAKER_03 (15:24):
So, yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_02 (15:27):
I also think one of the documents we're Michael,
we're gonna do this on localstonight.
We just said that.
Sorry, go ahead, Rob.

SPEAKER_03 (15:33):
Yeah, um, I think one of the documents, one of the
non-encyclical documents weshould do is his um is his
letter against Americanism.
Yeah.
Um, eventually.
But anyways.
Um, so liberalism is of coursethe doctrine that the people,
you know, are the only source ofauthority.
Um, all religions are equalbefore the state.

(15:56):
Church and state must beseparated, you know, and that
God is basically a private hobbywith no claim on public life.
We've already talked about allthis.
Um, you know, and to us, as youjust said, it it's it's what our
world is is built on now.
It's what it is just the world,but in a sense, it already was
in 1885.

(16:16):
In 1885, this was just simplyprogress, it was settled, it was
obvious to them.
It was the way they thoughtcivilized modern nations were
supposed to work.
Um, and Leo looked at all thatand called it, you know, what he
believed it was, and he believedit was a lie about the nature of
authority itself, and he set outto prove it in Immortality Day.

(16:38):
Um, and the core teaching ofImmortality Day is that there's
two powers.
Um, of course, Immortality Dayis Latin for the Immortal God.
It was issued on the Feast ofAll Saints Day in 1885, November
1st.
Um, so this is uh what about ayear, a year after his vision

(16:59):
that his vision happens onOctober 13th, 1884, which is 33
years to the day before themiracle of the son of Adam.
Oh wow, yeah, yeah, that'sinteresting.
Um, so this is uh about a yearafter that, and he opens it not
with a complaint, um, but with avision of order.
And his starting point is thatall authority comes from God,

(17:20):
not from the people, not fromthe consent of the governed, uh,
from God alone.
Um, and if all authority comesfrom God, then there's two
authorities that God hasestablished on earth, two
perfect society uh societies, asLeo calls them.
One, of course, is the church,which God established to govern
the things of the soul, ofeternity, of salvation, and the

(17:42):
other is the state, which Godestablished to govern the things
of the body uh and of thetemporal common good.
So two powers, the spiritual andthe temporal, both from God,
both real, both with genuineauthority in their own sphere.
And you know, it it wasn't acall for theocracy.
Leo's not saying that the Popeshould run the government or
that priests should bemagistrates or anything about

(18:04):
that.
He explicitly draws the linethat the church governs souls
and the state governs civilaffairs, and that each is
supreme in its own domain,basically.
Um but Leo says the state is notfree to be neutral about God
because the state authoritycomes from God, so that the

(18:25):
state then has a duty to God.
So a nation, just like a man,owes worship to its creator, and
therefore a rightly orderedstate must publicly recognize
the true religion, protects therights of the church, and order
its laws as far as it prudentlycan toward the eternal destiny
of its citizens.
You know, Leo argues that aChristian nation is not a nation

(18:47):
that just happens to haveChristians in it, it's a nation
that publicly acknowledgesChrist as King in its laws, in
its institutions and public.

SPEAKER_02 (18:56):
That's that's what that's what Leo's.
I don't mean to jump in, butjust to just to add some
context.
No, for sure.
The um the in well, it's it's apremonition that Leo's having
where he's seeing the got theworld governments around him no
longer recognizing Christ asking.

(19:17):
Right.
And he's and he's he'santicipating what that means for
for for the world, right?
And then you end up with likePius the 10th ends up writing an
encyclical about Christ the kingand instituting the 11th, okay,
instituting the feast of Christthe king because it gets so much
worse by his time.
But these are it's just aprophecy that that Leo is seeing

(19:41):
about to unfold.

SPEAKER_03 (19:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Um so so this, you know, thethis ideal from Leo is is the
thesis.
Um and you know, but the momentyou you say that, you know, what
he believes out loud, whethernow in 2026 or even back in
1885, every instinct that themodern world has trained into

(20:06):
you screams that it'simpossible, dangerous, or or
even wrong.
But Leo anticipated thatreaction.
And his answer to to thatreaction is is potentially the
most important and evencontroversial idea in the entire
episode, even potentially moreso than than what he lays out

(20:27):
about the state.
Um so so that you know, likelike I said, Leo anticipated
that that reaction that peopleare going to have.
Um he was honest enough to faceit.
You know, he just he'sdescribing the ideal state,
ideal Catholic state.
Um, but he's writing to a to achurch that's scattered across

(20:47):
um, you know, nations that areProtestant, pluralist, secular,
or you know, openly hostile tothe faith.
You know, so he's writing topeople in nations where the
ideal isn't just unrealized,it's currently impossible.

SPEAKER_04 (21:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (21:02):
You know, so so what is the Catholic supposed to do
in a country that will nevermost likely never be a
confessional Catholic state?
Are they supposed to pretend?
Are they supposed to revolt?
Are they supposed to justdespair?
And Leo's answer, and it's notjust his answer, it had been
worked on um for a coupledecades prior to this.

(21:23):
Um, by uh what was the funnyFrench name Josh Charles said
last episode?
Dupin Lu.
Oh uh Bishop Dupe.
No, it was uh it was Dupin Lu.
Dupin Lou.
Yeah, it was um he he's one ofthe he's one of the uh the
theologians that that were workwas working on this, but um uh
the the answer became known asthe thesis hypothesis uh

(21:45):
framework.
And it's it's uh it's really oneof the kind of the cleanest, uh
slickest pieces of of socialdoctrine the church has
produced.
And um the the rest of this, umhonestly, probably the rest of
the whole.
Series of encyclicals we'regoing to do really depends on on
people understanding it.
Um, and and it's pretty simple.

(22:06):
So the the thesis is the ideal,right?
So it's what should be theunchanging norm.
And in this context, it's theyou know, it's a confessional
Catholic state that recognizesthe true religion, gives the
church her rightful place, andwho may even limit the public
spread of grave religious errorfor the good of souls.
Um the principle underneath allthat is the whole the phrase,

(22:31):
you know, error has no rights.
Yeah, truth has rights, peoplehave rights, but error itself,
falsehood, has no positive claimon the public square that the
state exists to serve the truth.
Um, now, so that's the thesis,in at least in this context.
The hypothesis is kind of theconcession to reality, it's the

(22:51):
prudent application of when theideal cannot be achieved without
causing even greater harm, youknow, harm like civil war, um,
harsh persecution, you know,complete anarchy and chaos.
So, you know, in this sense, thehypothesis in a pluralistic or
non-Catholic society is youknow, the church tolerating

(23:12):
religious liberty, you know, uhaccepting a degree of separation
between the church and state,not because it's ideal, but
because it's the lesser evil atthat point.
You know, it's basically kind ofthe medicine for this the sixth
situation.

SPEAKER_02 (23:28):
I was thinking about this in light of the council,
uh, the second vatican council.

SPEAKER_03 (23:34):
Right, and this this will go right to it actually,
but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (23:37):
Like I was thinking about this in light of the
second Vatican Council, and Iwas thinking, like, what would
happen if Leo XIV came outtalking like Leo the Thirteenth,
right?
Like it might cause total andutter chaos, you know.
And I and I was thinking, like,when Paul VI lays down his papal
tiara, that concession, like, isthat what's going on here?

(23:58):
Is it basically like this is theonly way the church is going to
be able to function in thepost-World War II world, right?
And but the the thing is, all itjust kept coming back to was the
men that are in the hierarchytoday don't view the church the
same way Leo XIII does.
They don't see the church as theteacher of all humanity, they

(24:20):
don't see the the church as thelike the the the instructor of
nations.

SPEAKER_03 (24:26):
It's simply the privilege route to them, right?

SPEAKER_02 (24:28):
Yeah, it's the privileged way, or it's a or
they even like like they stillteach the Catholic faith, right?
Like you you still still get theCatholic faith in that you're
getting the sacraments andyou're being taught about mortal
sin and you're being taughtabout uh what holiness looks
like, things like that.
But they're no longer the themodern hierarchy no longer sees

(24:49):
the church with the same visionthat Leo the Thirteenth or any
but any of the pre-Conciliarpopes saw the church and her
role in society and the world.
So it's it's kind of jarringwhen you're reading some of
these things by Leo becauseyou're just like, man, this
that's just a different, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (25:11):
Yeah, you're supposed to say elder brother
before me, but I think I justsaid it first.
That's all right.
Let them talk.

SPEAKER_04 (25:16):
Well, I just ignore them now.

SPEAKER_03 (25:23):
I don't even care.
So the thesis in in thisframework never changes, it's
rooted in divine law, it's thepermanent ideal.
The hypothesis is a practicalaccommodation to messy you know
reality.
So toleration uh of otherreligions is not endorsement.

(25:45):
Tolerating error isn't the sameas saying error is good, it's
saying that under these specificconditions, fighting it would
cost more than just bearing it.
Um, so what Leo does is he givesCatholics a way to live
faithfully in a hostile secularworld.
What just happened to thecommons?

SPEAKER_02 (26:07):
I put ocean and time out.
Uh time out or forever?
No, timeout.
I gave him a timeout.
No, I think you I think you oh,I banned him permanently again.
I meant to just put him intimeout.

SPEAKER_03 (26:25):
Ocean, I ocean, I'll fix it after the video.

SPEAKER_02 (26:29):
You go too far every episode, Ocean.
Eventually you get to me.
I don't know.
You're right.
You got to me.
See you later.
You'll come back.

SPEAKER_03 (26:35):
This is an interesting theory.
The laying down of the tiara waspossibly the beginning of the
hundred years that Jesus said hewould give Satan.

SPEAKER_02 (26:43):
It was it was either then or it's 1947.
Those are my two theories.
Like, I I either think it's atthat moment when Paul the Sixth
does that or 1947, because 1947,so many things are happening in
1947.

SPEAKER_03 (26:56):
I mean, I've always I don't know.
I guess I've always thought thatit probably began right then and
there, but the church in 1985wasn't great, you know.
Like, if that's when the hundredyears ended, I mean, I are we
better now than we were in 1985?

(27:17):
No, that's why I thought the 80swere like the worst of the
liturgy, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 (27:22):
Like, well, okay, so we were talking about this a
little bit earlier, too.
Um, so like I you think um Leo,the uh Leo the 14th's writings
are on par with like JP2, or youthink they're even better than
JP2's?

SPEAKER_03 (27:36):
Uh that's I mean, I'm JP2 is a lot of uh um what
was it, phenomenology, right?
Yeah, and I'm just that's it'sit's always just with me, like
too wishy-washy feely, you know,feely wheelie sort of.

SPEAKER_02 (27:50):
So like you you have a major, you have a major
drop-off at the council, right?
Like a major drop-off where Imean, at least you still do get
Humani Vita after the council,which is like uh, you know, it's
I mean it's it it it holds theline.
Um JP2.
I don't know, man.
If if you read VeritatisSplendor, like he's at least
like giving moral clarity inthat, and he's like, you know,

(28:12):
he's he's uh reaffirming moralprinciples in it.
Um Benedict, I mean, got likethese guys are all modernists,
don't get me wrong, they're allmodernists, all all of the
post-conciliar popes aremodernists, but Benedict at
least like had a mind fortheology, even if it was a
little modernist.
He at least was like a atheologian, so he knew how to

(28:33):
how to write.
But there is a severe drop offwith Francis to the point where
it's like scandalous, yeah.
And then and then Leo comes, andLeo's not as scandalous as
Francis, but it's the samething, like it's now the same
wishy-washy nonsense languagethat, like, yeah, all right,

(28:54):
he's not he's not makingexceptions for gay blessings,
but it's still that same TucoFernandez.

SPEAKER_03 (29:01):
I was gonna say I think that's that's the common
thread.
That's the common thread, atleast right now, right?

SPEAKER_02 (29:07):
Yeah, yeah, maybe, but I I do think there was
another significant drop offonce the Francis papacy started
that I like I I don't see Idon't know.
Uh whatever.
Well, let's let's find out.
I mean, I I I'm not saying Leothe 14th's gonna suddenly start
writing Leo the Thirst.
It's hard it's hard to defendanything after the council after
reading some of theseencyclicals with you, man.

(29:27):
It's like I know, I know.
This is it's just so like I asmuch as like I still don't think
the settings are right, but Ihave a lot of empathy for their
position because you're justlike, what like man, this is
such a drastic change.

SPEAKER_03 (29:43):
Yeah, it is.
Um, where was I?
Okay, yeah.
So with the the the thesishypothesis stuff, Leo gives
Catholics a way to livefaithfully in a really hostile
world without ever concedingthat the hostile secular world
is right, you know.
So he's he's he's tellingCatholics you can obey the laws

(30:04):
of a religiously neutralrepublic, you can be a good
citizen of your nation.
You and you can still hold, youknow, that that this arrangement
is is a wound, it's a concessionto the fallen, you know, to a
fallen age, and it's not the wayGod ultimately wants nations to
be to to be ordered.
And for like 80 years afterthis, that that whole framework

(30:29):
is how Catholics understood therelationship between church and
kin church and state.
You know, it was the thestandard framework.
But then came Vatican II and adocument called Dignitatus
Humanae.
Um and you know, that's that thethe question that dignitatus
humane raises, you know, hasbeen kind of tearing at the

(30:51):
church ever since.
Um, so you know, in 1965, thechurch promulgatus humane, which
is the Declaration on ReligiousFreedom.
And it based I didn't pull upthe actual document, I'm not
gonna read from it, but tosummarize, it says, at least in
like the common reading oftoday, that every human person

(31:14):
more or less has a right toreligious liberty, that no one
should be forced to act againsthis conscience in religious
matters, um, and that no oneshould be prevented from
publicly practicing theirreligion within due limits.
And even that the right shouldbe recognized in a constant, you
know, in the constitutional lawof society.

SPEAKER_02 (31:33):
Or the Detroit Archbishop going to a mosque and
praising Islam.
Yeah, to say the least.

SPEAKER_03 (31:40):
Um now compare that to Leo the 13th.
Immortali Dei says that the saysthat the ideal state may limit
the public expression ofreligious error because error
has no rights.
Dignitas humane, many say, saysthe state should
constitutionally protect thepublic expression of religion,
including in practice falseones.

(32:00):
So it's it's there's no smalldifference there.
And you know, even to this day,to to a lot of faithful,
intelligent Catholics, it lookslike the church said one thing
in 1885 and said the oppositething in 1965.
You know, and how you how youanswer the question, did the did
the teaching change, you know,as has really split the Catholic

(32:24):
world since you know for thelast 60 years.
You know, you have the thetraditionalist critique, you
know, from men like uhArchbishop Lefebvre and Cardinal
uh Ottaviani, um, you know, whowho at least maybe not
initially, but eventually cameto say that the teachings seemed
to change.
Um, Leo XIII taught the socialkingship of Christ, uh, whereas

(32:46):
dignitatis humani seems tocontradict it.
You know, and and if the sincethe church cannot reverse her
own solemn teaching, it seemslike something there has gone
gravely wrong.
Um, you know, and it that's kindof if not this specific subject,
this kind of problem is the thedoctrinal engine of the entire

(33:08):
traditionalist movement, youknow, and if you push it to its
extreme, you know, you you doget kind of the set of contism
that we covered in the ourVatican I episode.

unknown (33:18):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (33:18):
On the other hand, you have the the the content uh
continuity reading, you know,from like Benedict, um, where he
addresses it in his famous 2005address on the human uh
humanitarian continuity, youknow, and they argue that the
teaching kind of just it didn'treverse, that the principle

(33:39):
didn't itself change.
Error still has no right, butwhat changed was just the
prudential application of thelight of modern of the modern
state.
They say that uh dignitas humaneis talking about immunity from
coercion, basically a civilright not to be uh forced, you
know, to to practiceCatholicism.

(34:00):
Which is a different question,they say, from whether error has
a positive right to exist.
Um, you know, they they in LeoLeo's own categories, some of
them argue that the council justuniversalized the hypothesis
that it recognized that in themodern world almost always
religious liberty as a civilarrangement is the prudent,

(34:22):
potentially even permanentapplication for the modern
world.
Um, you know, so it's it's uhit's obviously not a settled
question, um, even to this day,and and there's a lot of
unresolved tension in the churchbecause of it.

SPEAKER_02 (34:37):
Um but but what we do know is you can't really
understand the crisis in themodern church without
understanding this encyclicalbecause it's kind of like I I
just bought the um the catechismon modernism, and it's it's it's
all based on like basically Leothe Thirteenth and you know um

(34:59):
the syllabus of errors and allthis, like it's it's just a
catechism on modernism, so thatyou have a better way to
understand how subtle some ofthese things are, like some of
them are so subtle, and theyjust kind of infected everybody
and everything, and evenAmerican Catholics, even
Cerivicontists, are spewingmodernism from like a modernist

(35:21):
American point of view, and youknow, it's um whether right or
wrong, you know, continuity oror departure, like it it we do
have to look at the world as itexisted, like at the time of the
second Vatican Council.

SPEAKER_03 (35:39):
And I'm sure we'll get there through this series,
but like you know, when Leo'swriting this in 1885, Europe,
the Catholic Europe iscrumbling.
Yeah, and by the time of the1960s, it's gone, you know,
yeah, whereas the AmericanCatholic Church is growing
steadily, yeah.
You know, in a word in a in acountry, in a secular country

(36:01):
with freedom of religion, youhave the Catholic Church growing
and thriving, whereas inCatholic Europe, Catholic Europe
had collapsed.
So I could see where wherethey're saying, hey, in this day
and age, it is prudent to justalways have religious liberty,
to just, you know, yeah, becauseat least Catholics weren't being

(36:23):
persecuted here.

SPEAKER_02 (36:24):
So they were they were viewing the revolution
through the American lensinstead of the French lens,
right?
That's I mean, we we've heardBenedict even say that.
Like the French Revolution wasall about persecuting the church
and taking away the church's umprivileges and trying to uh
subdue the church, where theAmerican uh revolution was kind

(36:44):
of just like freedom ofreligion, everybody just do what
they want, we won't bother you.
The church, the state can'tinterfere with church matters,
you know, the separation ofchurch and state.
Where Leo's lamenting the ideaof the separation of church and
state, but they're seeing thechurch flourish under these
conditions of separation ofchurch and state.
I mean, I I I I can um likeempathize with their perspective

(37:06):
on it at that time, especiallywhile the world is in total
chaos in the 1960s.
You have you know revolutions onthe streets in America, JFK is
assassinated.
Like it's it's a wild time goingon in in in the world.
Well, that was years later, butstill.

SPEAKER_03 (37:23):
Um, yeah, and and it's important to realize like
Immortality Day sets in motion alot of things, it kind of starts
a chain reaction that runsthrough the next hundred years.
You know, three years afterthis, uh Leo Paul uh promulgates
his encyclical uh libertas,which is kind of a deeper

(37:43):
treatment of human liberty,where he defines true fear
freedom against like the falseliberal version of freedom.
And that encyclical withImmortality Day kind of becomes
the the backbone of Catholicpolitical philosophy for the
next you know 80 to 100 years.
Three years after that, in 1891,comes Rerum Navarum, which we'll

(38:05):
talk about next time.
You know, so that's hisencyclical on capital labor, the
rights of workers, and thatlaunches modern Catholic social
teaching as we know it.
Um and Rerum Navarum stands onthe foundation that Immortalide
lays the you know the convictionthat a society owes its order to
God, not just um you know, notjust on economic markets or or

(38:29):
political majorities.
And then after that, you know,in 1899, he issues a letter
called Testum uh BenevolBenevolentia, which addresses
the church in the United Statesand the the uh heresy of uh
Americanism, you know, and thequestion underneath that is is
exactly the the thesishypothesis question we're

(38:52):
talking about.
You know, is the American model,the separation of church and
state, religious liberty forall, is it merely a tolerable
hypothesis?
Or, you know, or at some as someAmerican Catholics were starting
to teach, it has the actualthesis, you know, the actual
ideal, better than what Leodescribes in Immortality Day.

(39:13):
Um, and in in that letter in1899, he says more or less that
the American arrangement may bea workable accommodation, um,
but don't don't mistake thataccommodation for the ideal,
basically.
Um so yeah, every thread,whether it's in libertas, rare

(39:35):
novarum, the Americanismcontroversy, um, the social
kingship of Christ that Pius XIuh, you know, um later crowns
with the feast of Christ theKing in 1920, the collision of
Vatican II, every single one ofthose comes back to to Immortal
Immortality Day here.

SPEAKER_02 (39:54):
Um yeah, so that's basically it.
It's interesting, especiallywhen he's talking about the
revolutions in the 16th centuryand stuff.
Like he's lamenting the therevolutions that happened in
Europe.
Like you could see his heart isbroken over what happened in

(40:15):
Europe.

SPEAKER_03 (40:18):
So I think we're ready to get into the encyclical
itself.

SPEAKER_02 (40:21):
Yeah, let's do it because this one's a doozy.
So, oh man, I gotta go all theway back to the beginning.
Um, the first thing I thatjumped out at me was um it's
right right in the beginning inparagraph two, um, where he
says, From the very beginning,Christians were harassed by
slanderous accusations of thisnature, and on that account were

(40:42):
held up to hatred and execrationfor being, so they were called,
enemies of the empire.
The Christian religion wasmoreover commonly charged with
being the cause of thecalamities that so frequently
befell the state.
Whereas, in very truth, justpunishment was being awarded to
guilty nations by an avengingGod.
Like you'd never hear a Popetalk like just punishments were

(41:07):
being avenged uh or being uh uhwhat did he actually say?
Is that uh the uh in very truejust punishment was being
awarded to guilty nations by anavenging god.
And like I was saying earlier,like if you believe that is what
is causing the empire to fall,the Roman Empire to fall, what
does that imply for us?

(41:30):
Because like that's that'sthat's where I get my
apocalypticism from is not it'snot a black pill, it's in that I
believe the story, like Ibelieve in God, and I believe
God punishes us when we are areguilty of idol worship and we
betrayed him.
So I just I don't see how we uhhow we could avoid it.

SPEAKER_03 (41:52):
I mean, I I think it's I think you could very I
think you could make a very goodcase that World War I and World
War II, which in essence is islargely the same conflict, that
those wars were a punishment forthe for for the world failing to
you know to to heed the warningsthat in these encyclicals we've

(42:15):
read.

SPEAKER_02 (42:15):
Yeah, I definitely don't disagree, but where where
the problem comes in is that itdoesn't lead to repentance and a
return to God.
No, no, it doesn't, which meansthat a deeper and harsher
chastisement is on the horizon.
It has to be one so harsh thatwe wear sackcloth and ash and
beg God's mercy and repent forour sins.

(42:37):
Um I I I I tried not tohighlight too much until
paragraph five.
So if you have anything inbetween.

SPEAKER_03 (42:44):
Yeah, just the end of two I have.
Many indeed are they who havetried to work out a plan of
civil society based on doctrinesother than those approved by the
Catholic Church.
Nay, in these later days, anovel conception of law has
begun here and there to gainincrease in influence, the
outcome, as it is maintained, ofan age arrived at full stature,

(43:05):
and the result of progressiveliberty.
But though endeavors of variouskinds have been ventured on, it
is clear that no better mode hasbeen devised for the building up
and ruling the state than thatwhich is the necessary growth of
the teachings of the gospel.
We deem it therefore of thehighest moment and a strict duty
of our apostolic office tocontrast with the lessons taught

(43:27):
by Christ, the novel theoriesnow advanced touching the state.
By this means we cherish hopethat the bright shining of the
truth may scatter the mist oferror and doubt, so that one and
all may see clearly theimperious law of life, which
they are bound to follow andobey.

SPEAKER_04 (43:43):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (43:44):
Oh man.
Um, in in uh go ahead.
Well, before you get to five, Ihad one more thing marked as as
important.
Um, as no society can holdtogether unless someone be
overall.
Directing all to striveearnestly for the common good,
everybody politic must have aruling authority.

(44:06):
This authority, no less thansociety itself, has its source
in nature, and has consequentlyGod for its author.
Hence it follows that all publicpower must proceed from God, for
God alone is the true andsupreme Lord of the world.
Everything without exceptionmust be subject to Him and must
serve Him, so that whosoeverholds the right to govern holds

(44:28):
it from one soul and singlesource, namely God, the
sovereign ruler of all.

SPEAKER_02 (44:34):
You see, he's starting to see that they're not
even following natural law,right?
Yeah, like he's they're not evenfollowing natural law anymore,
and it's just like like theseare the seeds for the feast of
Christ the King to be instituteddown the road.
Like it's you just see it'salready.
I mean, bro, this is beforeabortion, this is before uh uh

(44:58):
even even contraception.
This is this is he just seesrampant immorality, and he sees
these governments trying to makelaws that are contrary to the
natural law.
And he's like, You get you youall you leaders, like you need
to recognize that God is thesource and author of all of
authority, and you're governingin his name, man.

(45:21):
Like, because people like thisidea of oh, we're a we're a
government formed by the peoplefor the people, you know, for
the people and by the people,like he's saying that is wicked,
like to have a government formedby the people for the people is
wicked because then it justbecomes mob rule and consent of
the governed, and he's notsaying that things like

(45:43):
republics are inherently bad.

SPEAKER_03 (45:45):
Matter of fact, the the very next sentence he says
the right to rule is notnecessarily, however, bound up
with any special mode ofgovernment, it may take this or
that form, provided only that itbe of a nature of the
government.
Rulers must bear must ever bearin mind that God is the
paramount ruler of the world, itmust set him before themselves

(46:07):
as their exam.
So he's saying, if you want arepublic, so you know that's
okay.
If you want a monarchy,whatever, as long as whoever is
ruling the nation understandsthat God is truly the ruler of
the world.

SPEAKER_02 (46:18):
Yeah, yeah.
And and like I said, this isbefore 90% of the horrific
things were put into law, liketo actual, I mean, it's before
gay marriage, beforecontraception, before abortion,
before any of like the big, bigdoozies that come down the road.
So, um, all right.
So then in paragraph five, I sawI highlighted uh, but if those

(46:42):
who are in authority are inauthority rule unjustly, if they
govern overbearingly orarrogantly, and if their
measures prove hurtful to thepeople, they must remember that
Almighty God will one day bringthem to account.
Like this was so good.
More strictly in proportion tothe sacredness of their office
and preeminence of theirdignity, the mighty shall be

(47:02):
mightily tormented.
Then truly will the majesty ofthe law meet with the dutiful
and willing homage of the peoplewhen they are convinced that
their rulers hold authority fromGod and feel that it is a matter
of justice and duty to obeythem.
Like this is and this goes tothe church authorities too, but
Leo can't see that yet.
Like he doesn't he doesn't seethat this is going to end there,

(47:24):
also.
They are convinced that theirrulers hold authority from God
and feel that it is a matter ofjustice and duty to obey them
and to show them reverence andfealty, united to a love not
unlike that which children showtheir parents.
Let every soul be subject tohigher powers to despise
legitimate authority in whomeverwhomsoever it is vested is
unlawful as a rebellion againstthe divine will, and whoever

(47:47):
resists that rushes willfully todestruction.
This is this is why I'm hesitantto even really like all the
stuff with our own hierarchy.
So you have to tread socautiously when when even
criticizing them and callingthis one out and calling that
one out because it's rebellionagainst the divine will, and

(48:12):
whoever resists that rusheswillfully to destruction.

SPEAKER_03 (48:15):
Well, and just two sentences later, he says to gat
cast aside obedience and bypopular violence to incite to
revolt is therefore treason, notagainst man only, but against
God.
Yeah, it's a hard one, right?
Like it's well, even eventalking about our own, like

(48:36):
obviously, yeah, the church, buteven talking about like our own
our own nations, you know, likelike to despise legitimate
authority, like is our currentgovernment, and I don't just
mean like the Trumpadministration, I mean like our
current form of government, doesit hold legitimate authority?

SPEAKER_02 (48:54):
Yeah, if so, you know, like so every four years
we have a civil war essentially,right?
Like we're in civil war everyfour years when an election
comes around.
But no, you're right.
Like I had a um, I had a guythat watches our show uh reach
out to me recently, and he waslike, I'm I'm kind of struggling
with all the Trump stuff becausewe're very critical of Trump.

(49:16):
And he's like, like even KingHenry, um even uh Thomas um what
the heck is his name?
Thomas Moore.
Thomas More when when when he'sgoing against King Henry VIII,
it's like King Henry's doingthese horrific things, and he

(49:36):
still is like, no, my king, Ilove you.
I would never, you know, andit's like we like we do even,
you know, the you think aboutthe way we talk about Biden and
we talk about Trump, and it'slike they're not we we talk that
way because we know theyactually don't get their
authority from God, like they'rejust awful rulers that we have.

SPEAKER_03 (49:56):
One one of the more difficult uh I guess threads
running through my entire lifeum was coming to terms with my
father.
You know, the the the history heand I had together, our
relationship, um, and stuff likethat.
Like I spent a good portion ofmy life um despising him, you

(50:18):
know.
Yeah.
And um, and it took a lot to ittook a lot to get over.
I mean, it took him basicallybeing you know on his deathbed
the last few months to reallystart to get over that and come
to terms with the fact thatwhatever he had or had not done
throughout his life andthroughout his role as my

(50:38):
father, like he was still um myfather.
And there there is there is aheavy duty there, you know, on
both on both ends, and whetheror not he had lived up to his,
um, it really had nothing to dowith whether or not I was going
to live up to that's a hardthat's a hard one.
My duty, and and I'm starting tosee that more and more with um

(51:01):
with with others in authority inour society, you know.
I it I think the the encyclicaltalks about, you know, uh united
to a love, not unlike that whichchildren show their parents.
You know, that should be how weview um state and church
authority.

SPEAKER_02 (51:16):
It's hard, man.
It's really hard when you gotwhen you got when you got the
rulers we have, but even just toflip on its head what you went
through with your father, likeone day you'll be in that
position and you're gonna make aton of mistakes as a father.
Yeah, you know, like you and Iare going to make a ton of
mistakes as fathers.

SPEAKER_03 (51:33):
And and I I've started to realize that as a
father, you know, startingstarting to wonder what little
things am I doing or not doingnow that are my kids gonna hold
against me until they becomeparents and realize.

SPEAKER_02 (51:44):
Yeah, and and like every little thing you do is
imprinting something in them,you know, and and like when I
was I remember having blowoutswith my wife, and the kids
witnessed them, and you don'tknow what that does to them.
But and and then especiallybecause the conversation came up
um recently about somebody inour comments had said uh there's
this new thing where um kit kidsare going no contact with their

(52:07):
parents, right?
And I like I've never been inthat situation.
I'm from a big Italian family.
We have blowouts, we fight witheach other, but we all make up
after.
But the thought of my kids goingno contact with me because of
some mistake I made is like it'sreally hard.
But it's a it's something out ofmy realm.
But I also know that there'ssome toxic relationships that
you have to go no contact withbecause they're just poisonous,

(52:30):
you know?
So it's like, but but to yourpoint about like being a father,
like you'll one day be judged bythe kind of father you are.
Your father had to go face hisjudgment for the kind of father
he was, but we still have theduty to honor and love our
parents, regardless of what theydid.
Like, we have to, in the best ofour ability, honor our mother
and father because it's acommandment from God.

(52:52):
Oh, it's a hard one.
Um, all right, the next one Ihave is in chapter six, or
paragraph six.

SPEAKER_03 (53:01):
You have anything before no, we basically read up
to that.

SPEAKER_02 (53:06):
Yeah, uh, since then, no one is allowed to be
remiss in the service due toGod, and since the chief duty of
all men is to cling to religionin both its reaching and
practice, reaching and practice,not such religion as they may
have preference for, but thereligion which God enjoins and
which certain and most clearmarks show to be the only one
true religion, it is a publiccrime to act as though there

(53:29):
were no God.
So too, it is a sin for thestate not to have care for
religion as a something beyondits scope, or as of no practical
benefit, or as of many forms ofreligion to adopt that one which
chimes in with the fancy.
For we are all bound absolutelyto worship God in that way which
he has shown to be of his will.

(53:51):
All who rule, therefore, wouldhold and honor the holy name of
God, and one of their chiefduties must be in the faith be
to favor religion, to protectit, to shield it under the
credit and sanction of the laws,and neither to organize nor
enact any measure that maycompromise its safety.
This is uh this is the boundingduty of rulers to the people
over whom they rule.

(54:14):
For one and all, they for oneand all are we destined by our
birth and adoption to enjoy whenthis frail and fleeting life is
ended, a supreme and final goodin heaven, and to the attainment
of this very endeavor should bedirected.
Like I I don't know.
I I read that and I was thinkingmore of the church, like they

(54:37):
have a duty.
The the the the willingness thatthe hierarchy had to just play
loose and and free with this thethe rites and the sacraments and
the liturgies of the churchduring that council, it really
is just just heartbreaking.

SPEAKER_03 (54:56):
We got the Australian watching us.

SPEAKER_02 (55:00):
You want to know I was freaking me out?
Me and Rob both got the sameplay button.
Mine looks like the size of acredit card, and Rob's looks
like it's gigantic.
It's not right.

SPEAKER_03 (55:09):
Yeah, that's just gotta be perspective.

SPEAKER_02 (55:11):
It's gotta be perspective.
Did you see I ordered the otherone?
The second one, right?
Yeah, yeah.
That's pretty cool.
Yeah, yeah, I should, I shouldhave ordered the second one.
I kind of like the other onebetter.
You can order as many as youwant forever, but um, yeah, I
still gotta figure out betterlight.
Rob sent me a light, but thelight's like 400 bucks or
something.
I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna justmake you people see my red face

(55:33):
for a little longer.
I'll get it.
Just not yet.
We gotta build our savings backup.
We kind of blew the savings onmy new studio.

SPEAKER_03 (55:41):
So yeah, it looks, I think it looks good.
I think it's gonna be awesome.

SPEAKER_02 (55:46):
The studio looks great.
It's the lighting that I have totweak and and figure out.
Like I have to, I just have tofigure it out.
Whatever.
We've done this conversation 19times.
But um, where uh where do youhave highlighted next?
Because I tried not to highlighttoo much because the thing is so
long, right?
So I jumped pretty far downafter that.
I went to 20.

SPEAKER_03 (56:04):
Um, oh, you went to 20.
Yeah, let's see if I haveanything that I marked as
particularly important.
I have a lot highlighted before20, but let's see if I have it.
This is kind of funny.

SPEAKER_02 (56:16):
The play button size is proportionable to how much
each person does.
Yes, Rob Rob does the majorityof work, therefore his play
button is bigger.

SPEAKER_03 (56:28):
Okay, so uh in 17, um, he actually talks about
marriage, and I thought it wasum he says domestic society
acquires that firmness andsolidity so needful to it from
the holiness of marriage, oneand indissoluble, wherein the
rights and duty of a husband andwife are controlled with wise

(56:51):
justice and equity.
Due honor is assured to thewoman, the authority of the
husband is conformed to thepattern afforded by the
authority of God, the power ofthe father is tempered by a due
regard for the dignity of themother and her offspring, and
the best possible provision ismade for the guardianship,
welfare, and education of thechildren.

SPEAKER_02 (57:10):
Yeah, the the the in chapter 20 is basically covering
those same themes.
Um and it's because like we takefor granted that this is the the
moral order we live under.
That husbands are good to theirwives, that wives are good to
their husbands, that fathers aregood to their children.

(57:30):
Like we take that for granted.
That was not the way of theRoman.
Like the Roman citizen treatedhis wife like a piece of
property.
His slaves of his yeah, hischildren, he had the right to
kill his children.
They were his children, theywere his property.
He was if if a child disobeyedhim, he was that he had the
right to kill his own child.
So, like, we take for grantedthis idea of what a family looks

(57:54):
like and and the duties of afather and a husband to his wife
and children, and the duties ofa wife to her husband.
Like, this is and it's startingto fall apart before our eyes
right now because we're losingthat perspective of what
Christian family looks likebecause we live in a dispreved
world.
But in in 20, it also says,Women, uh, women thou dost

(58:15):
subject to their husbands inchaste and faithful obedience,
not for the not for thegratifying of their lust.
Talking about women and theirlust.

SPEAKER_03 (58:23):
Women, women thou if only because this is from St.
Augustine.
If only he had heard of booktalk.

SPEAKER_02 (58:29):
Yeah.
Uh yeah, so this is fromAugustine.
Women uh thou dost subject totheir husbands in chaste and
faithful obedience, not for thegratifying of their lust, but
for bringing forth children andfor having a share in the family
concerns.
Thou dost set husbands overtheir wives, not not that they
may be that may they may, ohman, not that they may play

(58:52):
false to false to the weakersex, but according to the
requirements of sincereaffection.
Like sincere affection for yourwife is a big thing, right?
Like this would this your wifeis not just your property.
You should you should do thisbecause you have a sincere
affection for her.
Thou dost subject children totheir parents in a kind of free

(59:13):
service, and dost establishparents over their children with
a benign rule.
Thou joinest together not insociety only, but in the sort of
brotherhood, citizen withcitizen, nation with nation, and
the whole race of men, byreminding them of their common
parentage.
Thou teachest kings to look tothe interests of their people,
and dost admonish the people tobe submissive to their kings.

(59:35):
With all care dost thou teachall to whom honor is due, and
affection and reverence, andfear, consolation, and
admonition and exhortation, anddiscipline, and reproach and
punishment.
He's talking about the church.
This is what the church hastaught us.
And you really don't like man,the the atheists of today and

(59:58):
and the you know the people whothink nothing of Christianity,
they all get to live in thespoils of men who were subdued
by the Christian faith.
They take for granted that thatthe even even like the when you
go back to the Me Too movement,right?
Like the whole thing was basedon debauchery and you know, but

(01:00:20):
it came back to Christianprinciples where women were
angry that men didn't act likeChristian men.
It was like it's like you guys,you guys had the sexual
revolution, you wanted freelove.
But uh, but regardless, itwasn't just him, though.
It's it's it was this backlashfrom women who were angry that

(01:00:41):
they were taken advantage of.
It's like you guys set this, youguys set this system up.
You wanted free love, you wantedto just have sex without
consequence, and then when menbehave like barbarians, because
that's what happens when you getrid of Christian morality, when
men acted like pagans, now allof a sudden you want to cry
about and you want to hold themto some morality that you told

(01:01:02):
them not to uphold anymore.
So now these women are mad thatthese men weren't gentlemen.
Like, screw you, you chose theserules, you wanted to play in
this in this mud.
Um do you have next?
Uh 21.

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:20):
I highlighted the whole of 21 and yeah, yeah.
So uh there was once a time whenstates were governed by the
philosophy of the gospel.
Then it was that the power anddivine virtue of Christian
wisdom had diffused itselfthroughout the laws,
institutions, and morals of thepeople, permeating all ranks and

(01:01:40):
relations of civil society.
Then, too, the religioninstituted by Jesus Christ,
established firmly in befittingdignity, flourished everywhere
by the favor of princes and thelegitimate protection of
magistrates.
And church and state werehappily united and conquered in
friendly interchange of goodoffices.
He's he's describing Christendomhere, basically.

SPEAKER_02 (01:02:02):
Yeah, that's why that's why I said earlier, like
he was lamenting the fall ofChristendom.
Like he's like, when things likewhen when the church is is
playing her proper role and thestate is playing its proper
role, they the the the stateupholds the church because the
church disciplines the children,and that makes the rule of
government so much more peacefulbecause the church is keeping

(01:02:24):
people.
Oh my gosh, it happened again.
Don't worry, somebody will turnit back on.
Um, yeah, you see.
I still hear you, it's just mymy my lights went out.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:34):
The state constituted in this wise, uh
constituted in this wise, borefruits important beyond all
expectation, whose remembranceis still is still and always
will be in renown, witnessed toas they are by countless proofs
which can never be blotted outor ever obscured by any craft of
any enemies.
Christian Europe has subduedbarbarous nations and changed

(01:02:58):
them from a savage to acivilized condition, from
superstition to true worship.
It victoriously rolled back thetide of Mohammedan conquest,
retained the headship ofcivilization, stood forth in the
front rank as the leader andteacher of all, in every branch
of national culture, bestowed onthe world the gift of true and

(01:03:19):
many-sided liberty, and mostwisely founded various numerous
institutions for the solace ofhuman suffering.
And if we inquire how he wasable to bring about so altered a
condition of things, the answeris beyond all question, in large
measure, through religion, underwhose auspices so many great
undertakings were set on foot,through whose aid they were

(01:03:42):
brought to completion.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:48):
Alright, you're gonna have to hang on because I
I can't believe it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:50):
Okay, I have a lot okay, I'll just keep reading
because I have it allhighlighted.
A similar state of things wouldcertainly have continued had the
agreement of the two powers beenlasting.
More important results evenmight have been justly looked
for.
Had obedience waited upon theauthority, teaching, and
counsels of the church, and hadthis submission been specially

(01:04:10):
marked by greater and moreunswerving loyalty, for that
should be regarded in the lightof an ever-changeless law which
No of Chartres wrote to PopePascal Pascal II.
When kingdom and priesthood areat one, in complete accord, the
world is well ruled, and thechurch flourishes and bring
forth abundant fruit.

(01:04:30):
But when they are at variance,not only smaller interest not
only smaller interests prospernot, but even things of greatest
moment fall into deplorabledecay.
Can you can you not coming backup?

SPEAKER_02 (01:04:55):
Alright, it might take a second for my uh thing to
boot back up.
Okay.
Yeah, sorry.
Where where are you up to now?

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:04):
Uh I I just finished 22.

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:07):
Okay, because in 23, I had I have to f it's I have
like nine things running on oneoutlet right now, and she must
have turned on the vacuum orsomething.
Um, but that harmful anddeplorable passion for
innovation, which was aroused inthe 16th century, through first,
this is like he's getting intothe the dark reformation, you

(01:05:29):
know.
But that harmful and deplorablepassion for innovation, which
was aroused in the 16th century,threw first of all into
confusion the Christianreligion, and next, by natural
consequence, invaded theprecincts of philosophy, whence
it spread amongst all classes ofsociety from this source as from
the fountainhead burst forth allthose later tenets of unbridled

(01:05:50):
license, which in the midst ofthe terrible upheavals of the
last century were wildlyconceived and boldly proclaimed
as the principles and foundationof that new conception of.
Law, which was not merelypreviously unknown, but was at
variance on many points, notonly with the Christian, not
only the with not only theChristian, but even the natural
law.
Like he's talking about America,essentially.

(01:06:13):
Like these are all theprinciples in which America is
not just America, obviously, butlike the things that we hold as
like sacrosanct in our countryare the very things that he's
saying are going to like lead toconfusion in the Christian
religion, um, and by naturalconsequence invade invade the
precincts of philosophy, whichthen will lead us to no longer

(01:06:35):
obey even the natural law, whichis exactly what happened.
Yep.
Um yeah, like I I even keptgoing.
Like amongst these principles,the main one lays down that as
all men are alike by race andnature, so in like manner, all
are equal in the control oftheir life, that each one is so

(01:06:57):
far his own master as to be inno sense under the rule of any
other individual, that each isfree to think on every subject
just as he may choose and dowhatever he may like to do, that
no man has any right to ruleover other men in a society
grounded upon such maxims, allgovernment is nothing more nor
less than the will of thepeople, and the people being

(01:07:18):
under the power of itself aloneis alone its own ruler.
Like that's a government by thepeople for the people.
It's crazy how these things youthink as an American are good,
and then you're reading the Popetrying to trying to show you

(01:07:41):
where this stuff is going tolead.
It's going to lead to chaos andand men no longer following the
natural law.
Yep.
Um, what'd you have next?
Oh, I'll just uh just a lot.
It is, yeah.
I tried to skip as much as Icould because it's so good.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:00):
Um, like what what did you just uh Okay, you just
did 24.
Like I have 25, 26, 27 is thenext one I have all highlighted.
Okay, let's read 27 then.
Um now when the state rests onfoundations like those just
named, and for the time beingthey are greatly in favor, it
readily appears into what andhow unrightful a position the

(01:08:22):
church is driven.
For when the management ofpublic business is in harmony
with doctrines of such a kind,the Catholic religion is allowed
a standing in civil societyequal only or inferior to
societies alien from it.
No regard is paid to the laws ofthe church, and she who, by the
order and commission of JesusChrist, has the due duty of

(01:08:43):
teaching all nations, findsherself forbidden to take any
part in the instruction of thepeople.
With reference to matters thatare of twofold jurisdiction,
they who administer the civilpower lay down the law of at
their own will, and in mattersthat appertain to religion
defiantly put aside the mostsacred decrees of the church.
They claim jurisdiction over themarriages of Catholics, even

(01:09:06):
over the bond as well as theunity and the indissolu
indissolubility of matrimony.
They lay hands on the goods ofthe clergy.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:14):
I want to stop you there.
Like our our man, there's somuch there.
Um because we in America, likeyou never thought anything of
like the state recognizingmarriage, but the state also
then takes this duty that theycould go, oh well, we're just

(01:09:35):
gonna give you a divorce.
Where the church is the churchis like, no, no, no, that's like
the marriage is our realm.
You don't you don't get to havea say over marriage, marriage is
our realm.
And the the government isbasically like, well, you know,
the church does what it does,but we're gonna give you a
decree of divorce.
And the church sees that wherethis is where this is heading.

(01:09:59):
And I I yeah, there's never Inever thought about this stuff.
Like, so do you think the churchdo you think the state should
have any say in marriage, or doyou think it should just be
totally given back to the tothis to the religious realm?

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:16):
I don't think there should even be marriage
licenses, to be honest.
Like it should be yeah, itreally should be the realm realm
of the church.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:27):
I mean, but I suppose But like there is a good
when the chur when the staterecognizes a marriage, yeah and
gives tax benefits to a familyand things like that.
Like, I I I see a benefit inthat.
Like, you do want the state torecognize the benefits and goods
of marriage, but what happens isthen the state gets involved and
they're like, Well, we'll callanything a marriage.

(01:10:48):
So I like the average personlooking 20 25 years ago would
have never thought anything ofthis stuff.
Maybe, maybe go back before nofault divorce or something, you
know, like you know, before 1970or whatever.
And you're like, no, no, no,it's good that the state
recognizes marriage, then all ofa sudden they give no fault
divorce, and then all of asudden they're they're

(01:11:09):
recognizing uh same-sexmarriage.
Next thing you know, they'repunishing men for their wives
filing for divorce when the wifeis the one who cheated.
Like, there's the you know,there's things that the state
did to absolutely destroymarriage and the covenant, yeah.

(01:11:30):
Um, yeah, wait, so I was sayingthat word had a good comment.
So, like, like it's good toencourage marriage, but with how
much the state has screwed upmarriage, encouraging divorce
and screwing over men, I'll passon the tax breaks.

SPEAKER_03 (01:11:41):
Yeah, it's yeah, well, the the thing uh so Joe
Joe Diodotti says, could youimagine the state recognizing
baptisms?
Currently, no, that would rightbecause it'd be crazy to think
that, but I mean, as as JoshuaCharles talked about during the
last episode, that was how youbecame a citizen of a Christian
nation was through baptism.

(01:12:02):
You know, you weren't really acitizen unless you were a
baptized, you know, Catholic.

SPEAKER_02 (01:12:08):
So in in France, you can't get married in the church
until you have a governmentwedding, which is not a valid
wedding.
So, like the church weddingisn't licit or legal on its own.
It's like, but that's inAmerica, too.
Like America, you could getmarried in a church, but you
need a government witness there.
Like, if you just went and gotmarried in a church, it wouldn't
be a legal marriage.

(01:12:29):
Right.
Appreciate you, man.
Thank you.
It you know what it is, it's ait's a it's a it's it's an
in-depth series, it's anin-depth look at this stuff, and
we're trying to do somethingthat's of substance and still
pertaining to the Catholicfaith.
And we're we're dealing with thecurrent crisis by looking back
at the things that were comingdown the pike.

(01:12:51):
These shows are never going tobe huge.
They're we just don't care.
Like, I honestly, I'm at a pointwhere I don't care if they're
big, I just I'm I'm enjoying it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:58):
Like like five to ten years from now, like our our
our usual episodes where we'retalking about whatever was going
on at the time won't matter, youknow, they won't mean anything.
But this series will alwayshopefully mean yeah, it's an
evergreen series.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:13):
You could send it if you got a long car ride and you
want to, you know, if you don'thave time to sit and watch it
live, it's like if you got along car ride, it's a good one
to throw on for a two-hour carride or something.
So um, the next one I hadhighlighted was like uh 31.
So I don't know if you hadanything in between there.
Um it's just so it's just sodense and packed, like you could
literally read the entireencyclical.
It's like we're trying to giveyou guys the highlights and uh

(01:13:35):
some of the things that likepopped out to us because it we
know it's hard to sit and readan encyclical, but the some of
this stuff is just so good, andyou're just like, man, like the
the popes before the council sawthis stuff coming, and then all
of a sudden they have thiscouncil, and it's like uh John
the 23rd's like, Oh, enough withthe prophets of doom.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:57):
It's like, no, bring back the prophets of doom, man.
Uh, this is there, there is aspecific playlist for this
already set up on the channel.
Um, I for the link is in thedescription, so just click on
the playlist link and it will itshould play them all.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:11):
Yeah, if you're checking this one out now and
you didn't watch the last one,like Joshua Charles jumped on
halfway through the last one,like after the historical
section, Josh jumped on with usand we discussed Freemasonry and
secret societies and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:24):
So um, so I have I have 31 highlighted as well,
especially the last sentence.
Um, I I the last sentence youcould say is kind of like TLM
versus novas ordo sort of thing.
And 31.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:42):
Yeah, so if you want to read it, literally
highlighted the same thing, andI put it in a different color
than the beginning of 31.
You want to read the wholething?
So I I basically like thebeginning of it, I highlighted
in yellow, and then like I cutit in half, and then I skipped a
couple sentences and Ihighlighted the rest in green.
But um, the sovereignty of thepeople, however, uh, and this

(01:15:03):
without any reference to God isheld to reside in a multitude,
which is doubtless a doctrineexceedingly well calculated to
flatter and to inflame manypassions.
That's important, like thesovereignty of the people, and
you know that it's meant toinflame passions.

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:16):
Well, they're they're bribing you with your
own vote, basically.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:20):
Yeah, and and and that's that's yeah, and it also
makes like selling offices ofthe state like you know, like a
thing, but it it it inflamespassions against each other, so
you're no longer seeing you'relike think about the the you
know the division betweenRepublicans and Democrats, you
know.
It's it's kind of crazy, and anduh um so you were drawing in

(01:15:44):
your book like a prot girly.
Yeah, with different colors.
Well, no, so me and Rob havethis app uh called Voice Voice
Note, or is that what it'scalled?

SPEAKER_03 (01:15:55):
I I I actually don't.

SPEAKER_02 (01:15:56):
I I've been reading them, but I've been well, I
listen to the audio of them onmy way home from work, and then
because I I want to listen to itfirst, and then I go back and I
and I reread it and it lets youhighlight it and stuff.
So uh so where I went next isindeed from the prevalence of
this teaching, which is you knowthe the sovereignty of the
people, uh indeed, from theprevalence of this teaching,
things have come to such a passthat may hold as an axiom of

(01:16:20):
civil jurisprudence thatseditions may be rightfully
fostered.
For the opinion prevails thatprinces are nothing more than
delegates chosen to carry outthe will of the people, once it
necessarily follows that allthings are as changeable as the
will of the people, so the sothat risk of public disturbance
is ever hanging over our heads.
I mean, we see this even withTrump when he didn't follow his

(01:16:43):
campaign promises, how crazyeverybody went, you know.
Um to hold, therefore, thatthere is no difference in
matters of religion betweenforms that are unlike each other
and even contrary to each other,most clearly leads in leads in
the end to the rejection of allreligion in both theory and

(01:17:03):
practice.
So, like the idea that um youbelieve what you believe, I
believe what I believe, what itends in the rejection of all
religion.
And it ends in A.
And the same, and this is thesame thing as atheism, however,
it may differ if differ in itfrom name.
Men who really believe in theokay, god this next part as you

(01:17:26):
were.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:27):
This is what I hadn't agreed.
I I like this.

SPEAKER_02 (01:17:32):
Men who really believe in the existence of God
must, in order to be consistentwith themselves and to avoid
absurd conclusions, understandthat differing modes of divine
worship involving dissimilarityand conflict, even on most
important points, cannot all beequally probably or equally
probable, equally good, andequally acceptable to God.

(01:17:53):
That was like, which is why theyare freaking not budging with
the SSPX, which is why you theyhad to uh give us traditionus
custodis, because you can't havethose two things being upheld as
two two two forms of the sameright, right?
Like like Benedict's is theextraordinary form and the

(01:18:15):
ordinary form.
Like you can't, because when youput them side by side, one is a
is basically a mockery of theother, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (01:18:24):
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, he says differing modesof worship involving
dissimilarity cannot be equallygood.
I mean, it's just logical.
If they're not the same, theycan't be equal.
It's just how it works.

SPEAKER_02 (01:18:41):
It's just it's like oh man, it was a that was uh so
too.
The liberty of thinking and ofpublishing, whatsoever each one
likes without any hindrance, isnot in it in itself an advantage
over which society can wiselyrejoice.
So, like freedom of the press isnot something you should be
praising.
I mean, it can work good in somecases, but then in others, it's

(01:19:03):
like book burning should happen.
There should be a list of bannedbooks that Catholics should not
read because they're poisonous,they destroy your soul.
On the contrary, it is thefountainhead and origin of many
evils.
Liberty is a power perfectingman and hence should have truth
and goodness for its object, butthe character of goodness and
truth cannot be changed, bechanged at option.

(01:19:26):
These remain ever one in this.
Can you imagine like a can youimagine Pope Leo the 14th
talking like this?

SPEAKER_03 (01:19:33):
I I I can't, yeah, I can't imagine any Pope besides
the council or any probably forthe next 80 years talking like
this.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:42):
These remain ever one and the same and are no less
unchangeable than nature itself.
If the mind assents to falseopinions and the will chooses
and follows after what is wrong,neither can attain its native
fullness, but both must fallfrom their native dignity into
an abyss of corruption.
Like this is it's this is aprophecy.

(01:20:02):
It's a it's a legitimateprophecy.
Um, whatever, therefore, isopposed to virtue and truth may
not be rightly broughttemptingly before the eye of
man, much less sanctioned by thefavor and protection of the law.
A well-spent life is the onlyway to heaven, whither all are
bound.
And on this account, the stateis acting against the laws and

(01:20:23):
dictates of nature whenever itpermits the license of opinion
and of action to lead mindsastray from truth and souls away
from the practice of virtue.
To exclude the church founded byGod Himself from life, from
laws, from the education ofyouth, from domestic society is
a grave and fatal error.
A state from which religion isbanished can never well

(01:20:45):
regulate, can never be wellregulated.
And already perhaps more than isdesirable is known of the nature
and tendency of the so-calledcivil philosophy of life and
morals.
Like he's just saying, like itcan't, it, it can't, it's not
gonna be well.
Like our our fate in America isdestruction because of the

(01:21:06):
principles we're founded on.
Like there, there's no wayaround that.
It's it's it's not a it's not,you know, you can't put a can't
put a timestamp on it, but it isbound for destruction because of
the principles our country wasfounded on.

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:19):
I think we have a crazy prod in the comments.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:22):
Please be smart, stop talking to demonic spirits,
pretending to be the Lord JesusChrist.
Oh, we I also for Thursday'sshow, I have I found a
Protestant podcast losing itover Father Ripperger.

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:35):
Oh, that's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:36):
And we're gonna cut clips and we're gonna go over
that on Thursday, I think,because it is just hilarious.
These guys think that theintelligence agencies, the CIA,
were all founded by the Knightsof Malta.

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:47):
I'm like, wait, which are the the Knights of
Malta, the Knights of uh theKnights Hospitaler from the
Crusades.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:55):
They think the Roman Catholic Church is in charge of
the American Intel agencies.
It's like they think Rome is theJews, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 (01:22:03):
No, no, no.
You you guys got it backwards.
The CIA is the boss of the ofthe of at least of Vatican II,
probably.

SPEAKER_02 (01:22:11):
Yeah, there's a lot going on there, but um uh all
right.
So, what do you got next?
I got 34.

SPEAKER_03 (01:22:18):
Um, that's funny.

SPEAKER_02 (01:22:20):
You you and I highlighted almost the exact
opposite paragraphs, which isgood because that means you got
an insight from something, andand I got an insight from I
know, but it means we have thewhole ding thing to talk about.
I know it is it is going to makethis difficult, but well, I got
between I don't I got 34 becausehe highlights Mirari Voss, and

(01:22:42):
and I was just reading thisparagraph to my wife earlier
because um well, whatever.
You read yours and I'll and I'llget it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:22:50):
Well, no, I don't have anything till 36, so you
go.

SPEAKER_02 (01:22:53):
Okay, so 34 is doctrines such as these, which
cannot be approved by humanreason and most seriously affect
the whole civil order.
Our predecessor, the Romanpontiffs, uh, well aware of what
their apostolic office requiredof them, have never allowed to
pass uncondemned.
Thus, Gregory the 16th and hisencyclical, Morari Voss, dated
1832, August 15th, invade withweighty words against the

(01:23:16):
sophism of the sophisms, whichsophisms, which even at this
time were being publiclyinculcated, namely that no
preference should be shown forany particular form of worship,
that it is right for individualsto form their own personal
judgments about religion, thateach man's conscience is his
sole and all-sufficing guide,and that it is lawful for every

(01:23:38):
man to publish his own views,whatever they may be, and even
conspire against the state.
On the question of theseparation of church and state,
the same pontiff writes also norcan we hope for happier results
either for religion or for thecivil government from the wishes
of those who desire that thechurch be separated from the
state and the concord betweenthe secular and ecclesiastical

(01:23:58):
authority be dissolved.
So I was explaining to my wifehow these are such American
principles, right?
Yeah.
That freedom of religion andeverybody has a right to their
own conscience, to the pointwhere even our own hierarchy
will say things about freedom ofconscience, like, look, your
conscience is the pro theprimordial Christ, which you
know is true, but the way theyuse it, it's like you know,

(01:24:20):
somebody within with without aproperly formed conscience can
not be sinning, even thoughthey're doing something horrific
if they are following theirconscience.
And it's it's a vile thing tothink.
But the Leo is pointing out thatthis is actually going to lead
to the destruction of yoursociety.

(01:24:46):
Oh man, wait, wait, wait, wait,wait, hold on.
It is clear that these men whoyearn for a shameless liberty
live in dread of an agreementwhich has always been fraught
with good and advantageous aliketo the sacred and civil
interests, to the like effect,also as occasion presented
itself to Pius IX brand publiclymany false opinions which were
gaining ground and like all ofthis stuff.

(01:25:07):
This is this is before the thecommunist revolutions really
take hold, right?
So, like Rare Novarum is writtenin response to those communist
revolutions, but he sees it onthe horizon, not in response.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:20):
When the the first communist revolution is until
you know 1917.
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:26):
But he sees the idea, but it's it's written in
response to you know Marx andEngels Communist Manifesto,
which had been so therevolutions haven't happened
yet, but these ideas are poppingup, and he's starting to see
that like like he sees this isjust going to be calamity upon a
calamity, and it's just going tojust it's going to end in ash,
all of it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:46):
Mm-hmm.
Um, did you have anything before36?
No.
So on Twitter earlier today, I Imade the the quip that Leo the
13th might convince me that Ishould actually vote again.
Um, and that's because he sayshere, neither is it blameworthy
in itself in any manner for thepeople to have a share greater

(01:26:09):
or less in the government.
For at certain times and undercertain laws, um, such
participation may not only be ofbenefit to the citizens, but may
even be of obligation.

SPEAKER_02 (01:26:21):
So, okay, so I think I think he's assuming that
elections aren't rigged.
Yeah, right.
He's assuming elections aren'trigged, right?
But he's also looking back tohow Christendom formed in the
first place.
Yeah, and the way Christendomforms in the first place is the
church does her thing, convertssouls, and those souls actually

(01:26:43):
like rot, like you eventuallyget people of power who are in
the Senate and they are in thesepositions of of civil authority,
who now have a formed Catholicconscience, and they get to
start adjusting the way thingsgo.
So I think he's almost lookingat it in respect to, yeah, look,

(01:27:04):
if you're a Catholic and you canhave a role in civil government,
that's actually a good thingbecause it can bring about good
fruits, just like it did in theearly church, as Christendom is
being formed in seed form, youknow.
Um this is probably a good timeto play the clip of Vance when
they ask him about his umdisagreements with Pope Leo.

SPEAKER_03 (01:27:26):
Right now, you think?

SPEAKER_02 (01:27:27):
Yeah, I think this is a perfect time to do that.
Okay, let me find it real quick.
This is kind of what Leo the13th is talking about, right?
Like it, like um, neither is itblameworthy in itself in any
manner for the people to have ashare, have a share greater or
less in the government, right?
So now we have a Catholic vicepresident, but he's in
disagreement with the Pope tosome degree.

(01:27:49):
But the way Vance handles thisgoes to this encyclical, really.
Like Vance is able to just kindof write off the Pope.
Go, uh, look, I know I think.
The you know the Pope does histhing, and you know, we do our
thing, we have separate roles,and and it's only that way
because Vatican II made it thus.
Like it's only that way becauseVatican II made it that way.

(01:28:11):
But there was a time where ifyou were a Catholic, I'm sorry,
you were subject to the Romanpontiff.

SPEAKER_00 (01:28:17):
How do you process Pope Leo's criticisms of the
administration, you know, on warand you know, have the treatment
of migrants?

SPEAKER_01 (01:28:26):
So the way that I think about it, first of all,
you know, I do think that themedia, not saying you, but the
media often tries to treat thePope as this sort of far-left
guy, where he said it'sreasonable for a nation to have
borders, it's reasonable fornation to enforce its borders.
Yes, he has said some criticalthings, but the way that I take
it is I try to listen and I tryto understand, I try to

(01:28:46):
understand the perspective, butfundamentally, the job that I
have is to apply moralprinciples to the problems that
exist.
I certainly think the Pope isgoing to have interesting views
on that.
I certainly take those viewsunder consideration, but it's
not my job to sort of say, well,just because the Pope disagrees
with me, I'm gonna do somethingdifferent for the American
people.
I think he has his role, I havemy role, the president has his

(01:29:08):
role, and the pope's role is asa preacher of the gospel,
certainly an important moralvoice, but I think somebody
where you've got to you gottayou gotta weigh everything, you
gotta say, absolutely, we cantreat people humanly, we can
also have a border.
Part of my job is to balancethose things.
I think part of the Pope's jobis to remind us.
I'm sorry, but like Vatican II,this is he's just following

(01:29:29):
Vatican II, and I don't thinkso.

SPEAKER_03 (01:29:31):
I I think everything he said there is pretty much in
line with this encyclical.
I I really do.
I he he because the the the thetwo the two powers, you know,
that the church, the church andthe state are are have the
authority in their spheres,right?
And yeah, the church has theauthority to teach on faith and

(01:29:52):
morals, yeah.
And yes, the state is is boundto to to follow that and and and
believe in those faith andmorals, but the state is the one
that has the authority to applythose faith and morals.

SPEAKER_02 (01:30:07):
When talking about an issue of morality, like like
I'm not saying JD Vance shouldbe just subject to the Roman
pontiff and just do whatever hesays.
I'm just saying the the way he'slike, well, the Pope is the
preacher of the gospel.

SPEAKER_03 (01:30:21):
His attitude is is a little flippant for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (01:30:23):
It's a little, it's a little flippant of who the who
the Pope is, who the Romanpontiff is.
And he's like, oh, you know,he's kind of just like you know,
he's a preacher of the gospel,you know.
No, he's the Roman pontiff inreality, right?
And his words should hold moreweight, but they've made it
where the Pope is kind ofplaying this political game and

(01:30:43):
he's not, you know, it's it'sjust it the it's it's it's led
to a degradation of the papacyin general.

SPEAKER_03 (01:30:50):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 (01:30:51):
The council since the council.
There's just a degradation in inthe office of the papacy, and
it's sad because I think JDVance, like, I mean, I I can't I
can't tell if he's genuine or ifhe but I mean he's a smart guy,
right?
Like he he gives good answers,and like especially when talking
about like the the the order ofuh the order of charity and

(01:31:14):
stuff like that.
Like he he's a smart guy.
He's not you know, I don't knowhow much he believes the stuff
or if he's using it as a skinskin shoot to get elected to
stuff, but yeah, he it's um he'san interesting character.
So I mean if they're all right,so here's the thing, we're at an
hour and a half, and I think weshould I don't know if you have

(01:31:36):
something like big highlighted,but look, you're not gonna get
through this whole thing, and II think it's almost brutal to do
that to everybody.

SPEAKER_03 (01:31:42):
Yeah, I do uh I had one I had one thing that I I
kind of tweeted earlier that umif you ever want to just destroy
uh a left cast or or liberalcatholic uh position on
anything, that this is what Iwould go with.
Leo says it is unlawful tofollow one line of conduct in

(01:32:04):
private life and another inpublic, respecting privately the
authority of the church, butpublicly rejecting it.
For this would amount to joiningtogether good and evil, and to
putting man in conflict withhimself, whereas he ought always
to be consistent, never in theleast point nor in any condition
of life to swerve from Christianvirtue.

SPEAKER_02 (01:32:26):
Yeah, I mean look, I I'll say this.
Um It's it's been hard to readthese encyclicals in light of
the current situation, butthey're also really informative,
and they've I I've I've learneda lot about some of my own um

(01:32:46):
improper views.
Like like I've had I've had manyincorrect views by growing up in
America and being raised in thepublic school system, and like
because I I I love certain uhlike even learning the Catholic
faith, like you learn certainapologetic arguments and you

(01:33:08):
learn church history, but toactually understand like what
our philosophical lens should beand understanding the the the
modern errors, it it's I don'tknow, it's it's been pretty it's
been pretty important for me.

SPEAKER_03 (01:33:24):
Yeah, you know, you're right where it's it's
hard to read the sort of thingswe used to hear from the our
popes.
Um and compared to what we hearnow, there is definitely a sense
of uh discontinuity there.
But on the other hand, like uh Iwouldn't say it um it is

(01:33:49):
somewhat in a weird waycomforting to also realize like
the our the the crisis of themodern age isn't as modern or
new as we like to think it is,yeah.
You know, like like yes, thewhat the the way the church has
handled things since 1960 is waydifferent than how they were

(01:34:10):
handling it in 1860, but theywere both fighting against this
the same struggles in in in asense it's made me realize uh
that at least for the vastmajority of of of the churchmen
at Vatican II, uh they probablyreally were doing what they
thought they you know becausethey they saw us uh a century of

(01:34:32):
how the the church had handledit, and it just didn't work for
whatever reason, right?
You know, Leo the 13th is asamazing as this encyclical was,
it didn't stop the march ofliberalism.

SPEAKER_02 (01:34:45):
What what I'll tell you what it's giving me an
appreciation for is Marshall'sthesis, infiltration,
infiltration, infiltration.
I mean, this stuff has you know,it's not it's not some drastic
thing that happened at thecouncil.
No, it's it was a slowinfiltration of the church, and
it's just gotten so pervasive inthe minds of men, and it it's

(01:35:08):
less an infiltration of people.

SPEAKER_03 (01:35:11):
I mean, sure, there are obviously bad actors, but it
is definitely it's it's more ofan infiltration of a worldview
of an idea of a worldview ofphilosophy.

SPEAKER_02 (01:35:19):
I yeah, 100%.
It's just this pervasive toxicpoison that has infected the
minds of all of us, all of uslike we're not exempt from it.
We're learning this stuff aswe're going, going, holy crap, I
didn't even know this stuff wasbad.
And it's all because we didn'tlisten to the warnings of the
popes who came before.
So it's it's been really good.

(01:35:40):
We're gonna jump into uh uhrarum Navarum next.
Um, we'll we'll see how that onegoes because hour and a half is
a long time for these shows.
So maybe we'll break that oneinto uh two hour-long episodes.

SPEAKER_03 (01:35:53):
Yeah.
Plus, it will give us at afuture date the ability to
splice them together and releaseit when we don't want to do
another actual episode.
Make a super cut of it later.

SPEAKER_02 (01:36:06):
All right.
So here's what we got in locals.
Um I I I would I would totallybe up for debating this.
Some woman said, Married women,have you ever said yes to sex
because you didn't want to dealwith his moodiness if you said
no?
And I thought that was aninteresting one because married
men, have you ever said yes tosomething because you didn't

(01:36:27):
want to deal with your wife'smoodiness if you said no?
And I think that that could bean interesting conversation we
could do.
We have the ortho, we have theorthobro wars going on where we
have this father uh EmmanuelLamelson, uh, him going off on
on uh like Jay Dyer, FatherJosiah, Father Stephen DeYoung.

(01:36:50):
He's kind of mocking AmericanOrthodoxy because American
Orthodoxy is kind of absurd.

SPEAKER_03 (01:36:57):
It's so it's too good, to be honest.

SPEAKER_02 (01:37:01):
It's just a it's just it's I don't know.
Like I I would never be temptedto go that way.

SPEAKER_03 (01:37:07):
It's American Protestants Protestantism with
smells and bells.
That's it.
It's American liberalism inpretty vestments.

SPEAKER_02 (01:37:18):
They have the same rejection of authority the
Protestants have against theirown higher their own hierarchy.
I'm sorry, the hiccups, guys.
Um I got Zen hiccups right now.
Or uh Zen, you traitor.
Um, then we got I want to do Leodoing the SSPX thing.

SPEAKER_04 (01:37:39):
Okay.

SPEAKER_02 (01:37:40):
Um, all right, so we're going over to locals,
guys.
Jump over to locals.

SPEAKER_03 (01:37:43):
Let me get the link for everyone.
How would Ant know what it howItaly is doing in the World Cup?
How are they doing in the WorldCup?
I don't know.
I don't know how America's doingin the World Cup.

unknown (01:37:56):
I have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 (01:37:57):
All I've been watching is how the Scots Love
America.

SPEAKER_02 (01:38:01):
Do they been watching those videos on
Twitter?
No, but I've been seeing likethe Venezuelans fighting the
Ecuadorians and all that crap.

SPEAKER_03 (01:38:08):
Oh my World Cup and your Twitter's still about race
wars.

SPEAKER_02 (01:38:13):
That's all they want.

SPEAKER_03 (01:38:14):
My World Cup is watching a Scottish guy go into
a Buckeys.

SPEAKER_02 (01:38:18):
The South American wars are hilarious to me because
I work with all guys fromdifferent South American
countries and they all hate eachother.
And it's all racial.
Like it's they like I'm tellingyou, the the Hondurans hate the
Ecuadorians, and the they alljust hate each other.
Um all right, so yeah, we'regonna go over to the other side.
We're gonna do SSPX, we're gonnado ortho bro drama, and um next

(01:38:44):
episode we have Protestantsgoing after Father Rippiger, and
we're gonna mock themmercilessly.

SPEAKER_03 (01:38:51):
Uh send them to uh Robert at avoidingbabylon.com
and I'll read over them.

SPEAKER_02 (01:38:57):
Robert, not Rob.
Because I've given your I'vegiven your email addresses Rob
at avoiding Babylon.
It's Robert at Avoiding Babylon.

SPEAKER_03 (01:39:04):
Or team, team at avoidingbabylon.com.
You got a taffy outro?
No, he's he's making one forwhat what are we doing?
What are we doing Thursday?
Is Nancy Charles coming on thisThursday or next?
Oh, she is, yes, we're gettingNancy on Thursday.
Okay, so Taffy, Taffy, careful,careful now.
This careful, but you have tomake a Nancy Charles intro

(01:39:26):
somehow.
Now careful, because we loveNancy.
So it would be best just to doone making fun of her brother.
I think.
I think that's safest.

SPEAKER_02 (01:39:37):
Oh, we're gonna get we're gonna get her to spill the
tea on Josh.
I'm gonna go Nancy.
I know you think you wanted totalk about like what it's like
to to be under the car.
How was he as a 10-year-oldJosh?
We wanted to know what kind ofwhat kind of an a-hole is he to
work for.

SPEAKER_03 (01:39:54):
That's right.
She does work for him.
Can you imagine how much of aperfectionist he is?

SPEAKER_02 (01:39:59):
Oh, he is the bossiest perfectionist on earth.
That poor girl.
He's gotta be a drama queen,right?
Oh my gosh, you have no idea.
Oh my goodness.
I can't imagine what that poorgirl goes through.
All right, we'll see you guys onthe other side.
Uh, what am I gonna put?
That's like oh Jamie, you suck.
I'm sorry.
Like hit the post, man.

(01:40:20):
Like that's like the out.

SPEAKER_03 (01:40:23):
Uh man, I don't know.
Just some Enoch on.
We did the Asian one, right?
We already did that one.
That was funny.
Uh we can't do Enoch becausethen he'll get part of the cut.
We'll just do this.

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Rome Has Spoken: The Most Contested Encyclical in the Modern Church | Immortale Dei

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Rome Has Spoken: The Most Contested Encyclical in the Modern Church | Immortale Dei