January 31, 2025 • 58 mins
Curious about what it truly means to be a Certified Anesthesiologist Assistant (CAA)? You're in the right place! From nearly two decades of experience, I share a clear and comprehensive breakdown of the CAA profession. Think of me as your older sister or best friend, guiding you step-by-step through the essentials—from what CAAs actually do to how much money we make, no topic is off limits. Whether you're an aspiring AA student or simply exploring a career in medicine, this guide equips you with the insights you need to understand the CAA profession.
In Part 4 I am answering the question, "How Much Money Do CAAs Really Make?" Understanding the financial aspects of being a Certified Anesthesiologist Assistant is essential for those in the field or considering entering it.
In this episode I discuss:
- Current salary averages ranging from $190,000 to $300,000
- The historical evolution of CAA salaries since the 1970s
- The average student loan debt for CAAs
- Why salaries vary based on location and institution
- Insights from CAA job market expert and founder of BagMask.com Patrick Flaherty, CAA
- Mega Sign-on bonuses and how to navigate
Resources Mentioned:
- BagMask.com Sign-on Bonus article 1 & 2
- BagMask.com Highest Paying CAA Jobs (April, 28 2023)
- AnesthesiaOneSource.com Comparing AA School costs
- @CAALifestyle YouTube finance playlist
- @anesthesia_anonymous IG Financial Transparency
- AspiringCAA.com Historical Salary Trends (July 2024)
You can now text me! Questions/Suggestions
Support Aaliyah Walker, an OB patient whose care deeply impacted our 2025 AAAA President, Nicole Moore. Learn how you can aid Aaliyah’s recovery and amplify her impact.
Want more?
Stay in the know by subscribing to the Awakened Anesthetist Newsletter-
more resources, exclusive content and ways to connect.
Interested in practicing mindfulness with this CAA community?
- Receive your Free 30 min Webinar Introduction to Mindfulness for CAAs
Let's Chat! Contact me:
awakenedanesthetist@gmail.com
IG @awakenedanesthetist
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to the Awakened Anesthetist podcast,
the first podcast to highlightthe CAA experience.
I'm your host, mary Jean, andI've been a certified
anesthesiologist assistant forclose to two decades.
Throughout my journey andstruggles, I've searched for
guidance that includes my uniqueperspective as a CAA.
At one of my lowest points, Idecided to turn my passion for
(00:28):
storytelling and my belief thatthe CAA profession is uniquely
able to create a life by designinto a podcast.
If you are a practicing CAA,current AA student or someone
who hopes to be one, I encourageyou to stick around and
experience the power of being ina community filled with voices
(00:49):
who sound like yours, sharingexperiences you never believed
possible.
I know you will find yourselfhere at the Awakened Anesthetist
Podcast.
Welcome in, hello AwakenedAnesthetist community and
welcome back to the AwakenedAnestis podcast.
I'm your host, mary Jean.
(01:09):
I'm so grateful you're here.
If you're a practicing CAA or acurrent AA student or someone
who hopes to one day be a futureAA student, I'm really grateful
that you found this feed, thispodcast, this community.
It's such a rare and specialthing to find a group of CAAs
(01:31):
because, number one, there's nota lot of us and number two,
there's even fewer of us, sortof putting ourselves out there
trying to find community, createcommunity share about the
profession.
And as I have continued on thispodcasting journey, I can just
really feel that one of my mainreasons for being is to create
(01:53):
deeper connection within the CAAcommunity connection to
yourself, connection to yourwork in the world as a CAA and
connections with other people inthis community.
So I'm just so grateful you'rehere and I love bringing this
podcast to you.
Today.
You have tuned in to the fourthinstallment of the Complete
(02:15):
Guide to Understanding CertifiedAnesthesiologist Assistance.
This episode is going to be abreakdown of how much money CAAs
make.
The first three episodes are inthe back feed of whatever
podcast platform you'relistening on.
They are a deep dive into whata CAA is and is not.
(02:35):
They also include where canCAAs work, which is a more
complicated scenario than youwould think.
And the last one is why I thinkyou should not be a CAA, as
well as some reasons why I lovethe profession and highly
recommend it.
(02:56):
So to really understand and getthe most out of this episode
even though this one might beone that draws you in you
probably want to listen to thoseback three episodes because I'm
going to be using some language, some jargon.
I might be speaking sort ofquickly and if you're really new
to the profession, it might behard to get all of the takeaways
or really understand what I'msaying without those three prior
(03:19):
episodes.
So if you're with me and you'reall caught up and you want to
talk about how much CAAs make, Ireally want to stress that this
is a conversation that's meantto be sort of a best friend
conversation or, you know, yourmentor, your CAA mentor, just
giving it to you really real andgiving you some behind the
scenes explaining things, justlike I would if we were having a
(03:42):
friendly conversation overcoffee and you were asking me
questions about salary and howthis is all created and
compensation plans and I haverecorded this episode, I'm not
lying probably four times and Ikeep not liking it and I'm not
exactly sure why, except for thefact that talking about money
(04:03):
is a little bit trickyno-transcript, as well as
(04:33):
someone who feels very deeplycommitted to the profession that
I in no way want to be like,join our profession.
It's so amazing.
You get paid a lot of moneyperiod, end of story.
Oh, amazing, you get paid a lotof money period end of story,
because being a CAA, yes, has aperk of making a good salary,
and there are so many otherreasons to also be a CAA, and it
(04:54):
is a very weighted decision andthe money will not make you
happy if you are not meant to bea CAA.
Giving anesthesia is a veryparticular type of career.
Being a CAA is actually a verylimiting career in terms of
transitioning your skills toother areas in the medical
workforce Certainly notimpossible to transition, but it
(05:17):
is a very unique, veryspecialized master's of
anesthesia degree that you knowmakes you basically an expert in
doing exactly one job.
So the purpose of this episodeis to shed some light onto three
areas that I think areparticularly important to
(05:37):
understand, as well as threeareas that I think people
haven't really talked a lotabout, and those three areas are
the history of money and theCAA profession.
The second one is my take onhow the salary is one aspect of
the money, and we also have toremember on the flip side of
(06:00):
every big salary is also a largeamount of student loan debt.
So I really want to share somemore information about how much
it costs to become a CAA.
And then the third piece that Ireally want to talk about is
trying to break down why thesalary of a CAA can vary so much
(06:21):
from state to state or city tocity within the same state, or
even from institution toinstitution within the same city
.
There can be different salariesand sometimes a large range of
salaries, and if you are notfamiliar with this profession
and or if you're a CAA and youjust only know about your local
(06:41):
community of CAAs, you might notrealize that you could make
more or work less or workdifferently in a different area
of the state or city or country,because CAAs, again, there's
not very many of us and we tendto just only know about our
immediate surroundings.
It's kind of new for us to beout there on social media
talking about how much money wemake and where we live and why
(07:04):
we get paid, what we do and howyou make that money, and so I'm
just going to add some clarityto all of that for people who
are practicing CAAs andespecially for people who are
new to the profession orconsidering becoming a CAA, so
you can kind of understand whatgoes into someone's salary, all
the many factors, what goes intosomeone's salary, all the many
(07:28):
factors.
Okay, so we probably shouldstart with just me stating what
the average annual salary of aCAA right now currently it is
January 2025.
And I would say that theaverage full-time salary of a
working CAA with zero years ofexperience so a new grad is
(07:48):
anywhere from $190,000 a year to$300,000 a year.
And the wide range of thatsalary the $190,000 to $300,000,
can be very confusing, as whythere's there that difference
and what makes up thatdifference.
And so in this episode I reallywant to shed light on where
(08:10):
those numbers even come from.
How can there be such adifference?
I want to explain some of that,but I first think it's really
interesting to start with thehistory of our salary, because
we certainly were not making$190,000 or anywhere near that
when the profession started inthe very early 1970s, when the
(08:32):
first classes were graduatingand working as practicing AAs.
At the time they were calledanesthesiologists assistants at
the time, and I have just aunique perspective because my
dad, dan Ladke, happens to bethe second graduating class of
CAAs out of one of the originalschools.
So teeny history lesson EmoryUniversity in Atlanta and Case
(08:56):
Western Reserve University,their main campus in Cleveland,
were the first two AA schoolsand the only AA schools for
decades and it is only recentlynow where we have more than 20
AA schools and counting as of2025, all of that growth has
happened really within my career.
(09:17):
I graduated from the same schoolmy dad did Case Western Reserve
University in Cleveland Ohio.
I graduated in 2008 and my dadgraduated in 1974.
So really in the 17 years I'vebeen practicing as a CAA,
there's been a gigantic boom inschools created.
That, will you know, createmore CAAs in the world, which
(09:41):
has obviously had a huge impacton the economy for CAAs and our
salaries.
So I have this very specialperson I could call my dad and
I'm going to play a clip rightnow because I was like wouldn't
that be interesting to hear howmuch AAs used to make?
And so I called my dad and Ijust asked him some questions
(10:01):
about his beginning salary, whathe could remember and let me
play that now because it's superinteresting I think you're
going to be kind of blown away.
So where you come in is hopingyou could remember how much you
made you graduated in 1974.
And then how much you made inthe first job and then, if you
(10:21):
remember your first big jump inpay.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I remember both of them.
Okay, my first job, st VincentCharity I made $12,000 a year.
That did not include call orovertime pay, which took me up
to about $18,000.
Okay, there was about 6,000 inovertime and call.
The next big jump that I hadwas when I went to Seattle in 76
(10:55):
, mary was that and my salarywent to $25,000 a year but there
was no overtime.
Thousand dollars a year, butthere was no overtime.
There was just a straight eighthours a day and no, no calls,
(11:17):
no weekends or anything likethat.
Then I came back from seattle81 or 82.
81 or 82.
Back to Cleveland and my salarywas probably at $50,000.
$40,000.
$40,000?
Yeah, it was about $50,000.
(11:38):
It doubled almost my salary inSeattle.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
All right.
Well, that was what I washoping for.
I don't think very many peoplecan call one of the earliest
CAAs and ask them how much theymade, so I know that will be an
interesting thing.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, now we were at 12,000 a year.
We were the highest in the city.
Wow, I know Metro, that was acharity.
Yeah, that was a charity.
Um, metro, I think, was at 10.
They started 10 000 a year and,yeah, they may have had better
(12:18):
benefit, I don't know butawesome interesting, awesome,
okay, oh, and also wait.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Do you remember how much Case cost Case when it was
an undergrad?
Do you remember what the costof school was my freshman year
with tuition.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Just tuition was $4,000.
Oh my gosh, yeah, $4,000.
And if you had room and board,I think that added on another
$2,000.
So I think it was about 6,000total.
Of course I was living at home,so I was 4,000.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, okay, all right , thank you, I'll talk to you
later All right, bye, bye.
Thanks, dad, for offering thosememories and your experience.
I actually started my love ofstorytelling from my dad and if
you knew him as a CAA, he was abig storyteller.
He was also a really greateducator and spent the last
(13:19):
years of his career atUniversity of Missouri, kansas
City MSA program.
He retired several years agoand now is enjoying retirement
with my mom and you could tellthat they've been married for
almost 50 years because you hearmy mom in the background
answering the questions for him.
But yeah, I just I love that Ihave that resource and I can
(13:40):
share him with all of you.
Okay, I will then share that.
When I first started in 2008, Iwas working in the state of
Missouri, which was a fairly newstate for AAs at the time, and
my beginning base salary was$120,000 a year, and then I had
the additional ability to makeabout $40,000 to $50,000 extra
(14:06):
in call pay and overtime pay,and so I think the first year I
came out with about $160,000 ofsalary, of money made, and now I
am overall, like per year,making around a hundred thousand
dollars total.
I make two hundred dollars anhour working PRN and I'm working
(14:28):
about four to six shifts amonth.
So I'm working far less andmaking you know almost my base
salary.
I probably I haven't actuallygot my W-2 yet for this first
year of working PRN, but Isuspect I made more than
$120,000 just working thatlittle.
So it may seem kind of obviousto state, but I want to put a
(14:51):
fine point on the fact that theycan advertise.
So a job can advertise, youknow, a $250,000 salary or
compensation package and withinthat you're going to want to
figure out the fine print of howmany hours you need to be
working in order to make thatamount of money.
(15:12):
So, for example, you might beguaranteed some sort of base
salary let's say $170,000 basesalary and all the additional
money to get from $170,000 to$250,000 is call pay or overtime
opportunities or workingweekends or nights.
(15:33):
That could be true and it alsocould be true that it's $250,000
and maybe you get put into thecall pool.
You don't have a choice whetheryou take call or not.
Maybe you can like trade themaway, but the $250,000 per year
means that you have to take yourfair share of call.
And of course the next questionis what does call mean?
(15:54):
Does call mean I'm sleeping atthe hospital?
Does it mean that I have tolive within a certain mile
radius and be availableimmediately on my phone to come
in.
You know, to drop everything,come in and so the money is sort
of a useless point until youknow how much work you need to
do to secure that compensationpackage.
(16:16):
And again, I keep using salaryversus compensation package
because they are two differentthings Salary is the money that
you get in your paycheck everytwo weeks and your compensation,
which can be listed in a job,like they can say, the total
compensation is $300,000 or$350,000, but your salary maybe
(16:38):
is only $250,000.
And the other extra money ismaybe them referring to things
such as sign-on bonus or travelallotments for educational
opportunities or CME funds orways that they cover your
insurance or distributions intoa profit sharing.
(16:59):
All of these things in termsthat you're going to need to
understand to really have anunderstanding of how much money
you should be expecting in yourpaycheck every two weeks or
month or week or however theypay you, and then where this
other compensation is going.
Because it is still valuable to, let's say, have your employer
(17:19):
pay your entire health insurancepremium.
That is still a value to you.
That has money attached to it,but it's not actual money put
into your paycheck.
Ok, hopefully that's clearenough to say that you need to
ask a lot of questions, thatthings are rapidly changing when
(17:39):
it comes to salary,compensation, the money that you
will receive as a working CAA,and that it is very much tied to
the economy, to supply anddemand, to a lot of other
outside factors that we're goingto talk about later on this
episode, like location, likewhere you are in the United
(18:02):
States and how desperately yourhospital needs people, yeah.
So hopefully that helps sort ofclarify why some websites or
places on the internet can say,yeah, the average salary is
$170,000.
And then another place says, oh, the salary is $350,000.
That's kind of a lot ofdifferent money and how did they
come up with that?
So, ask questions, be your ownbest advocate and understand
(18:27):
what you're getting into beforeyou just think, oh, this is a
really great way to make a bigsalary.
Okay, let's move on, because wehave so much more to talk about
.
The second thing I wanted totalk about is student debt.
So, yes, we make $190,000 to$300,000 of salary or of
(18:49):
compensation, but you have topay to go to AA school.
There is no scholarship.
There's no full ride to AAschool.
Unless you have someone in yourlife who is helping you pay for
it, you will be coming out ofgrad school AA school with a
significant amount of studentloan debt.
It is not possible to work inany appreciable way while in AA
(19:11):
school, so unfortunately thatmeans you have to take out a lot
of student loans or have abunch of savings.
Now, when I graduated from CaseWestern Reserve University in
2008, I had a total of $160,000of student loan debt.
That was about $40,000 fromundergrad and $120,000 from
(19:32):
graduate.
I would say that was probablyabout average, and because I've
graduated so long ago, I wasn'tsure how those numbers had
changed, and so I kind of phonedseveral other CAA friends, caa
content creators, who are notshy either about sharing their
salary or how much debt theywere in or are still in, and it
(19:55):
seems that you know, despite thecircumstance where you have
someone who pays for it or youhad a huge savings before you
went to AA school, about$200,000 of student loan debt is
normal to come out of AA schoolwith.
And I spoke with the founder ofAnesthesia OneSource, which is a
fabulous website if you are aprospective AA student and
(20:17):
wondering which AA school wouldbe your best fit.
Anesthesiaonesourcecomabsolutely incredible resources.
She has a really cool andrecently updated infographic of
the cost of all of the AAschools and she was kind enough
to allow me to link it in theshow notes.
But it really shows howexpensive AA school is.
(20:40):
And per Jen, who is the founderof Anesthesia OneSource, aa
school only gets more expensiveyear after year.
The prices keep going up.
You know several reasons.
I don't know that I'm going toget into them now, but just to
expect that AA school will onlybecome more expensive.
The least expensive school atthis moment total tuition costs,
(21:02):
so not including fees, like allyour books and supplies and
things, and not including livingexpenses, which of course you
have to factor in.
So this is not including that.
The cheapest school is if youare a Colorado resident and
going to the University ofColorado is $87,780.
The most expensive school isUniversity of Texas at Houston
(21:26):
to non-residents.
So of course that's a stateschool.
If you're a resident it's alittle cheaper.
If you're a non-resident it is$192,000.
Yikes, let me see what Case is,just because now I'm interested
.
Case is $144,276 tuition onlyto go to their AA school and it
(21:47):
looks like that's across alltheir campuses.
Wow, that's kind of expensive.
So again, yes, you make a greatsalary, but you're going to come
out with a hefty amount ofstudent loans to be paid back
over the course of whatever theloan terms are 10 years, 15
years, 20 years and, of course,you have options to consolidate
(22:09):
loans, to put it on a personalloan, pay off all the student
loans, put it on oneconsolidated personal loan and
pay that.
Of course, there's interestrates involved with all of this
and interest accrues on yourstudent loans and all of that
financial stuff needs to bethought of when you are looking
at this profession, as well aswhen you are about to graduate
(22:31):
and wanting to take your firstjob.
Yes, maybe you're going to make$200,000, but you need to be
aware of what your plan is topay off your student loans or
the debt you have.
You know, going into your firstjob, do you want to sort of hit
it hard and pay it all off?
You know, within the first fewyears of working, do you want to
spread it out?
How much of your budget are yougoing to put towards paying off
(22:54):
your student loan debt?
Huge, huge suck of your salaryis paying off your student loan
debt.
Huge, huge suck of your salaryis paying off your student loan
debt and people approach that indifferent ways.
So one of the beautiful thingsabout being a CAA is that you
make enough money that you canreasonably pay off your student
loans.
You know, if you were to thinkof getting maybe a teaching
(23:15):
degree from Harvard or something, you could come out with the
same amount of student loan debtand then if you think of trying
to pay that back on a teacher'ssalary, it's going to take you
a lot longer than paying off$200,000 of student loan debt as
a CAA who's able to make$200,000 plus a year.
So that's a huge perk of theCAA salary is that you actually
(23:39):
can afford to pay off the schoolthat it took to get there, but
it's not nothing.
I believe I was paying close to$3,000 every month on my student
loans and it still took me nineyears to pay off my student
loans.
Of course I got married and Ipaid for my own wedding and we
bought a house and of courselife happens and I was able to
pay for all of that myself, butit still took me nine years to
(24:00):
pay off $160,000 of student loandebt.
I think that's all I want tosay about that.
But, yes, do not forget thatit's going to cost you money to
make money.
So the third thing that I wantto share is what I was probably
most ignorant about and mostnervous to comment on, which is
(24:22):
current market trends.
And you know the very active jobmarket right now and that
number that I told you, sort oftop of the episode salaries
being, on average, $190,000 to$300,000.
That's very new.
It's very new for a CAA to bereaching that $300,000 top mark
(24:44):
and even now I just saw a salaryfor more than $300,000.
Like actively, it's changingday by day, depending on a whole
bunch of things that I'm notsuper sure of.
I kind of know, but I wanted tobring in an expert for this
piece so that CAAs could bearmed with the most current
(25:05):
information, even if it'schanging rapidly.
And if you are a prospective AAstudent, I think this is really
going to give you a greatresource.
Number one the expert I'm aboutto introduce and give you a
really good sense of why therecan be that large fluctuation of
salary, why some hospitals canbe paying $190,000 and some
(25:27):
hospitals maybe have to pay$300,000 or are paying $300,000
or more, and again, I justwanted to give more of the
nuance behind some of these bignumbers that we're currently
hearing in the CAA profession.
So, without further ado, let meintroduce Patrick Flaherty.
Patrick is a fellow CAA.
(25:48):
He is also the co-founder ofbagmasscom.
That is an anesthesia job boardas well as educational resource
site, and I'll have him explainmore exactly about the vision
and mission of bagmaskcom.
But Patrick popped into my mindwhen I was thinking who can I
call that will know about reallythe moment-to-moment changes in
(26:11):
the job market and really whatcircumstances brought CAAs to
the salary that we are seeingand enjoying now in January 2025
.
So, patrick, thank you so muchfor saying yes and thank you so
much for being the expert neededin the CAA job market.
Do you mind sharing whatbagmasscom is and how it has
(26:33):
really put your finger on thepulse of the CAA job market, how
it has really put your fingeron the pulse of the CAA job
market.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
So really, to explain what bagmascom is, you sort of
need to hear its origin story.
And that really began withtalking to students whether
they're SAA students or CRNAstudents or residents about how
to be a professional in theanesthesia job market, because
the schools do an amazing job ofteaching us how to be
anesthesia providers.
But when it came time to stepout and start your career, I had
(26:59):
no idea and most students don'thave an idea of how you write a
CV, how you apply for jobs, howyou understand what a sign-on
bonus is if you're lucky enoughto get one.
So it really began with tryingto fill this gap of professional
development for students.
So I thought it'd be a greatidea.
Let's start writing theseprofessional development
articles.
And on top of that, I want tobe able to create a way for us
to give back, and that was withthe form of the anesthesia
(27:20):
scholarship, because therereally wasn't anything at that
time.
But then the catch comes is howdo you pay for that anesthesia
scholarship?
Do I pay for it out of pocket?
I wish I could.
I don't make that much money,but how can I get companies.
How could I reach out to theanesthesia companies, the groups
that we're going to be workingfor one day, to help sponsor
(27:42):
this?
And the more I thought about it, the more work I realized was
going to be to constantly go outand ask these companies hey,
please sponsor this anesthesiascholarship.
I thought, well, why don't Istart a job board to go along
with this website?
Let's just make one place whereyou can go, learn all the stuff
you need to know about to be aprofessional, create a career,
get a scholarship and then beable to find a job at the end of
(28:03):
your student journey and then,even once you're past being a
student, you know practicing,you can come back and find a job
.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
And the idea was, in fact, you get these companies,
come on, post their jobs theycould pay the website and then I
could turn around and take thatmoney and give it back to the
community.
And since its launch, I feellike you have expanded into
different states, like the reachof it has really broadened.
Can you speak on how yourunderstanding of the CAA job
(28:33):
market has deepened and where itis now in terms of even just
seeing the trends over the whatfive years?
How long has the job board beenup?
Speaker 3 (28:41):
No, so it's actually probably six years as of today
or tomorrow, but I don't reallycount that first year.
That was just really a lot oftrial and error.
But, holy cow, to be a CAA orSAA right now, it couldn't be
any better.
I've never seen the market theway it has been before and just
(29:02):
the growth that we're seeing.
So let's take why that ismultiple reasons.
One is we've had some greatleadership start thinking about
we need to open up more schools,so we're putting more providers
out there and this comes to bea great question of like how
many schools are too many whenyou start dumping out more
providers?
We can talk on life about that.
I've been on both sides of thisuse and I'm on the opposite side
(29:25):
now, where I was 10 years ago,and that's where I think we do
need more providers.
We need people to get theirvoices out there and start
knocking on doors and say thebig turning point really was
COVID.
As horrible as COVID was for alot of families, a lot of people
(29:50):
individually, it shined a lighton the anesthesia market.
That was sort of it was alwaysthere, but they were able to
sort of mask it.
Now it's just how manyproviders were actually needed
to fill positions.
Oh, wow.
So it's COVID.
Covid has been the big drivingforce.
It's shown that they need moreproviders out there and what
this has allowed is for morehospitals to open up.
(30:10):
It's allowed for more states toopen up and at the same time,
we've seen this increase insalaries not only just for CAAs
but for the CRNAs andanesthesiologists.
Because when it comes down tothis increase in salary, it
comes down to market demand.
This increase in salary, itjust comes down to market demand
.
Okay, Before COVID, a lot oftimes the salary stayed stagnant
(30:33):
for a very long time.
There wasn't really anythingpushing them up.
The only time I ever saw anincrease in my salary is when
one anesthesia group left andanother one came in and they
wanted to keep the providersthere.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
But what COVID did was it showed all.
Right now we're reallystruggling trying to get
providers in this hospital.
We need to increase our salary.
So I'm going to keep using DCas a great example, because it
ended up becoming a market workthere.
One group would go up, nextgroup go up and the next group
go up and it's just a ladderinto your system until they
finally got to a.
They're doing pretty well tothe point where DC right now
(31:05):
unfortunately unfortunately,depending on how you look at it
if you're a person licensingpart-time or PRN there's no
spots in DC right now Really nohiring.
So Washington Hospital Centermight be hiring.
I've heard one to two people iscoming here.
That place could never getanybody to stay there.
There was always a revolvingdoor, but they've come around
where the salary makes itworthwhile.
(31:27):
For a long time they thoughtmajor city people want to live
here.
We can pay them less becausethey want to be here and it sort
of worked but it didn't work.
So DC is the only marketplaceright now in the US where AAs
would have a tough time findinga job.
Wow, except outside of DC, andlike the market's awesome,
everywhere you go there's jobopportunities.
(31:47):
It's never been a better timefor you to be able to go out
there and really sort of cherrypick where you want to work okay
and um uh.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
One of the reasons I started this podcast is because
CAAs can get really siloed inthe reality of like the 20 mile
radius around where we live,which is true for me in terms of
the job market.
I know fairly well the KansasCity job market.
Share with us what it lookslike in terms of the regions of
the country and you can reallyspeak to a CAA who understands
(32:21):
the fact that we can't work inevery state.
Really speak directly to maybeeven a practicing CAA, if you
want to use that language, onwhy different regions of the
country have different salariesand where you're seeing demand
higher or lower.
I mean, I don't even know whatquestion to ask because I don't
know the details.
But talk on that, patrick.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Yes, all that stuff.
It's a very complicated topic.
Yes, because even withincertain states you see regions
where the pay is a lot higherversus other areas and I can't
always answer to why that mightbe in certain states.
But I'd tell you right now, thestates with the three highest,
most amount of job posts and itsort of makes sense, one per
(33:04):
population of the thing is, andone just because we're A's has
been for a long time.
So Georgia, still one of thehottest spots Most amount of
jobs you'll see on a job boardright now are coming out of
Georgia.
Number two and three are goingto be Texas and Florida, and
part of that is land mass andthe population there.
There's a lot more places butthere's still a lot more
hospitals we could potentiallybe in in those locations.
(33:25):
As far as salaries going, it'spretty much the same across the
country right now.
A lot of things, at least forthe top practicing CAs when I
mean top practicing, I like thebest CA, people with experience.
A lot of the jobs are toppingout now around $260,000,
$250,000, $270,000, in someareas even a little bit higher.
(33:46):
For a new grad, though you'regoing to be like well, I'm not
making that, they're onlyshowing me like $200,000.
But that's the way a lot ofthese companies work is.
There's a tier system.
You come in, you start at abase level and then, based on
your years of experience orsometimes it's even just being
within the same group you getbumped up higher and higher.
But even on that, 200,000 isvery, very common nowadays for
(34:06):
somebody to come out practicing,which is insane to think about.
It's awesome.
I mean, if you're an AA studentright now, you don't really
realize because you don't havethe perspective of like.
You have life, you've won.
Basically, you've won lottery.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
At this point in time , you have a job, you're coming
out in your early 20s,especially if you went straight
from college to A school.
You're crushing it.
You really are.
Yeah, can you speak a littlebit to whether the 260 is a
straight salary or does thatmean you're working overtime or
call?
Or is that with package, likewhen you see a salary can we
assume that is not includingbenefits or is including
(34:45):
benefits?
Can you speak to that?
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Yeah, don't assume anything.
Okay, great, that's.
One of the great things aboutwhat I've learned with bagmascom
is I've had opportunities totalk to lots of recruiters, all
from private practices to biggroups is ask questions Anytime
you go in for an interview.
It's a two-way street,especially nowadays.
Like the power is you.
(35:07):
Nowadays we have the power ofwhere we want to take a job.
So ask all the questions youwant.
You want to make sure youunderstand every single detail,
because there's some deceptivepractices out there where some
group will put this huge numberout there, like $300,000, but
that's total compensation.
And so to give you an idea ofwhat total compensation is for
salary, salary is what's goingto be paid every two weeks.
(35:30):
So multiply that by 26,.
That's your salary.
So maybe that's $250,000.
Sometimes these groups, like Isaid, they'll give you total
compensation so that other$50,000 is made up with taking
call.
Potentially it's a retentionbonus, there's incentive bonuses
.
It might include your healthinsurance, your retirement
package.
So you really need to ask thosequestions, like you know.
(35:53):
All right, what is the salary?
Now, going back to what youasked about originally okay,
that salary does that include metaking call?
The call nights is a weekend.
Is my expected to work umholidays or is that just the
base salary and then call is anadditional top.
That so I can you know I mightbe getting a 250, but I can take
(36:14):
the accessory call.
It might be cardiac call, justweekend call, trauma call and
get an extra $20,000, $30,000.
So it sort of gives you an ideaof how that's broken down.
Yes, please don't be afraid toask questions.
That's what you're there.
You want to join a group that'sgoing to be open and
transparent with you.
They're not.
It might not want to be a placeyou want to be.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, and that transparency, like that shift to
being transparent, is so new, Ifeel like in the job market, in
the anesthesia job market andthen specifically the CAA job
market.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
I encourage AAs being very open about what you're
making.
All right, that just helps usas a community in multiple ways.
I mean individually your groupyou might barely have a pay bump
, but two, it also opens up thedoors, I think, for a lot of
these groups and hospitals torealize no, we are getting the
same amount CRNAs are getting.
(37:06):
So if they do decide to open up, there's never this
conversation of, hey, shouldCRNAs get paid more than NAA?
Only caveat to that I will saythere are circumstances where
that should occur.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
And that's where CRNAs are taken.
Call by themselves, not adoctor all night and they'll be
completely differentcircumstance.
Yes, yes, when the anesthesiacare team model is being
(37:43):
utilized, a CRNA and an AAworking in that model should be
paid equally.
Yes, that is a huge push in ourlegislation and in our
education.
Like to understand that thereis no difference thing that
seems to be happening.
That happened after I graduated.
These like enormous sign-onbonuses and how those are
usually structured.
Are there any pitfalls that weneed to be watching out for?
If we see this like reallyeye-catching number, are we like
selling our soul to thathospital for the rest of our
(38:03):
lives?
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Oh, so you're in the same boat as me.
It's like I remember when I wasgraduating I think there
might've been like maybe one ortwo practices that were offering
sign-on bonuses.
It's like, what is that?
And to go back to your point,you know, am I selling your soul
?
I think that is part of therespect of us being people have
been practicing for a while,because for quite a while there
sign sign-on bonuses were onlygiven out to places where they
(38:25):
were desperate for people.
Today it's the main street,like but if you're not giving a
sign-on bonus, almost like, whyaren't you giving a sign-on
bonus?
Type of deal.
Really, lots of groups havesigned with I'm the same boat.
I never had a sign-on bonus, um,just when I was switching jobs
I'm on to my third job now um,just never had the opportunity
they weren weren't offering them.
(38:46):
So completely jealous,completely fascinated by sign-on
bonus.
I'm hoping to one day get asign-on bonus, but the way
things are going, I doubt it.
Sort of going like you want towork less part-time, all that
jazz.
So sign-on bonuses, how they'restructured, should you take
them?
What do they mean?
You're going to have differentthoughts if you hop online to
(39:09):
talk about this.
We did a little bit of a deepdive on it last year to really
run the numbers, if it makessense.
We have two articles up thereright now.
I highly suggest you take alook at them, just so you
understand what you're gettinginto.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
We'll link them.
I did not come across those, sosend them to me and I'll put
them in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
I got too well hidden .
I got to get them out there.
My thoughts on sign-on bonusthis is myself If you're
offering a sign-on bonus, takeit, absolutely, take it, 100%.
Take it, even if you thinkyou're going to be leaving
within a year.
Take that money.
That's money you would not getotherwise.
And I say that with the caveatof you need to understand what
you're signing on for though,okay.
And second thing is, if you'renot a financially responsible
(39:48):
person, anything might be a,believe me.
Really don't take it then.
Okay.
The reason I say this let'sit's a lot easier if I write
this out or try saying thisverbally.
Let's say we'll back it up.
Most sign-on bonuses right noware anywhere from 15 to 25000
per year.
They can be sometimes multiples, where it's like $25,000 every
(40:09):
single year.
So you might see sign-onbonuses for $75,000.
They're going to be paid offthe course of three years.
Each group does it a little bitdifferently.
Some might give you that$75,000 off front.
Some do it as a sign-on bonusas soon as you sign, you get
$25,000.
Others do it as your first dayyou get that $25,000.
And then, at the beginning ofyour second year you get $25,000
(40:30):
.
And the third year you get$25,000.
So once again, it goes back tosalaries.
Make sure you really understandwhat you're signing up for and
what you'd have to pay back ifyou were to leave early.
Leaving early I'm going to getback to why you should always
take it here, but I want to keepwith the strain of thought.
(40:51):
Leaving early.
Paying back is done differentlyby groups.
So you take a larger group like, let's say, envision.
I know for a fact uh, I shouldsay for a fact I know that
they've worked with people thisway in the past is that, say,
you take a sign-on bonus, youowe them two years, you're going
to be leaving after a year, butthey've already given you the
full, let's say, $50,000.
What they'll do is they'll haveyou pay that back in increments
(41:11):
over your final remainingchecks.
So it's not like you have todig into your bank account, pull
out $25,000 and get it back toyou, which is a very nice way to
do it.
Other groups might require youto pay it back right away.
This goes back to where I sayyou have to be financially
responsible when you take asign-on bonus unless you know
you're going to absolutely bethere for two or three years,
(41:32):
whatever the duration is forthat, my suggestion is take the
money out.
They're going to take a wholebunch of taxes out of your
sign-on bonus, and that's fine.
Because if you think about itthis way, if I were to give you
$100 and you had to give 50% tothe government, you're still
walking away with an extra $50in your pocket you wouldn't
normally have.
You're ahead of the game.
(41:53):
So people get worried about allright.
So what if I have to pay thisback?
So let's take the idea forsimple numbers.
Say you're given $24,000sign-on bonus.
You're going to be paid $12,000at the very first day of your
job and you're going to be paidanother $12,000 at the start of
your second year.
So basically, during that firstyear, if you were to leave at
(42:18):
any of those months let's sayyou leave at the six-month mark
period.
So you've been given $12,000,you haven't been given that
second 12 yet you'd only owe 50%.
Right?
Easy math.
You're halfway through the yearand you'd owe $6,000.
So basically, what happened isyou got $12,000.
Taxes were taken out, you putit in your bank account.
You should have that moneyready to pay back if you need it
(42:40):
.
Okay, that's what I said.
If you're not very sure aboutthis, what's interesting with
the math on the second year?
I love this fact and I didn'tknow this was.
This was the way it worked.
So you already got the twelvethousand dollars.
You made it through the firstyear.
They give you that secondtwelve thousand dollars.
Now, if you were to leave sixmonths into that second year,
(43:00):
you're not paying fifty percentof that back because your
contract is based now on it'sbeen based on 24 months.
You're being you're basing itoff of 18 months of already in
service.
So you're actually paying aquarter back of that $12,000,
that second one.
So you're not paying $6,000back, whatever.
What's quarter for that $3,000?
So you're only paying $3,000back at that point in time.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
So the longer you stay within that contract, the
less and less you're paying.
That applies to even if theygive it to you off-front.
Wow, okay, yes, I followed thatmath.
But basically you're rewardedfor the longer you stay and
fulfill your contract, you haveto pay back less and less.
So the longer you stay, you'reincentivized to stay.
Basically, yes.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
I mean as simple as that sounds, but sometimes it
gets a little tricky with howthey're paying it out.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
And there was one other thing I want to mention
with that, but I'm sure it'llcome to me with your next
question.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah Well, I was just thinking this.
Of course, for everyone,listening is not a standard.
It is what the trends thatPatrick is seeing.
So you know it's all verynuanced.
But what Patrick is saying isthat you have to be asking all
these questions before takingthe sign-on bonus.
You want to be reallyunderstanding what you would
(44:15):
have to pay back if you end upunexpectedly or expectedly
moving, and you always want youknow it's just really smart to
have a little nest egg that youcan dip into, if something like
this, like a little emergencyfund, that could then also
double as your payback sign-onbonus if you were to take one.
(44:35):
What else do we want to say,patrick?
Speaker 3 (44:39):
So what I remember was, if you feel really
uncomfortable with taking anupfront sign-on bonus just
because you're not too sure thisis the right place for me, you
know life happens Ask them ifthey can make it a retention
bonus instead.
So instead of getting paidupfront after I complete my
first year, I get that $12,000,because then you're not on the
hook for leaving early and youcan continue to do that after
(45:00):
the second and the third year.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Oh, that is a really great suggestion because that
behooves them, that makes itfeel like this person is going
to want to stay, as opposed togiving them the money up front.
Oh, that is a wonderfulsuggestion.
Yeah, people out there don't,you know, don't want to worry
about it.
Wonderful, great.
I wish I had that suggestion.
My last negotiation it's timeto switch jobs.
(45:24):
Okay, I think this might be mylast question.
We've covered so much but I'mwondering.
We touched on the transparencya little bit, but I'm wondering
when is the right time to bringup salary?
When you are looking for a newjob, like you're entertaining
maybe several offers, or you'rejust doing your first inquiry
(45:47):
into a posting on bagmaskcom,when is it appropriate to ask
how much I will be getting paid?
Speaker 3 (45:54):
don't lead with that question.
If you want to turn a group off.
It shouldn't be within thefirst 10, 15 minutes, but it
needs to be addressed and it'snot something you should be
afraid to address because you'reabout to commit a lot of time
to these people.
Generally, I would recommend it.
Once again, it depends on whattype of group you're talking to.
Are you talking to a nationalgroup?
Are you talking to a privategroup?
(46:14):
But either way, I would bringit up towards the end of the
conversation.
I would sort of say like allright, so we covered X, y and Z
out of curiosity, just so I canstart planning my future.
I want to make sure I'mfinancially sound.
What is the pay modeled here?
What is expected?
Shifts, bonuses, all that jazz.
(46:36):
They're expecting that,especially in today's market.
They know once again it goesback to we're in control.
They should feel comfortablewith that.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
So true, I personally , and I'm sure you personally,
have lived through that where itwas like a hush-hush, don't
talk about it and people aregetting paid differently at the
same amount of experience andthen all of a sudden that busted
open after COVID.
Are getting paid differently atthe same amount of experience
and then all of a sudden thatbusted open after COVID.
Anything else we need to know,patrick, that's inside your
brain, that needs to be recordedon this mic so we can all sort
of understand the money behindthe CAA profession and how best,
(47:11):
to you know, make our decisionon whether this profession is
right for us or a job move isright for us.
So let's talk to about, youknow, is this profession is
right for us or?
Speaker 3 (47:18):
a job move is right for us.
So let's talk about.
You know, is this professionright for you?
That's a very tough question.
You cannot let the money decide.
You know, is this the right jobfor you?
You're going to hear that witheverything.
But this is a much differentcareer.
It's one of the conversations Ihave with brand new students is
you're no longer studying topass a test, you're studying to
(47:38):
keep a test.
You're studying to keepsomebody alive.
You're studying to keepsomebody from getting hurt.
You're studying to make sure,30 years down the line, you can
pull some random fact out of theback of your brain to help save
a person's life.
I may not have to save a life,but just make sure nothing bad
goes on.
So the responsibility thatcomes along with this number is
(47:59):
a lot different than potentiallyany other job.
So that's something you reallyhave to think about.
The dedication, the sacrificesyou're going to have to make at
school are unbelievable.
You don't really realize howmuch you have to sort of cut
yourself off from the rest ofthe world, like your world
(48:20):
becomes your cohort ofclassmates going in there.
I mean, I still made everyopportunity to call my parents,
check on my brother and sister,but I had a lot of great friends
who are that's why they're mygreat friends.
Like they knew I was going tobe dropping off the nap for a
little while just to study.
I had to miss some funerals forsome of my buddies, which still
haunts me to this day, but theyunderstood, like I was in
(48:43):
school, this is nonstop.
So when you think about gettinginto this career, you got to
think about the sacrifices justto get to that point.
Now the good news is you have anamazing community that wants to
see you succeed.
You got your preceptors, yougot your teachers, you got your
classmates.
You're going to make some greatfriends throughout the program.
The doctors are going to meetthe CRNAs and nurses.
I mean, the healthcarecommunity is amazing.
I mean, it's one of my favoritethings about it.
The people in healthcare areoutstanding.
(49:04):
But then once you startpracticing too, you're going to
have to start.
Maybe, depending on yourpractice, you're going to have
to sacrifice nights.
You're going to have tosacrifice holidays, weekends,
you're going to miss birthdays.
So that number comes with theprice.
So that number comes with theprice.
You just have to figure outwhether or not you feel
comfortable with it.
For the practicing CA.
You had a question about thatSort of lost track of my career
spot there.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Yeah, just about making a career shift.
Like, gee, I feel like I'vebeen at a job for 10 years and
everyone else is getting thesehuge sign-on bonuses and should
I, you know, maybe negotiate orlook for a different job because
I'm not getting the best deal Ican be.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
Being in a job, same place for 10 years.
Sometimes you just need tochange the pace.
I mean honestly maybe it's justpicking up PR and shift
someplace else, just to sort ofwe're very smart people in
anesthesia, Like our minds needto be stimulated, and I think
sometimes you get in sort of thesame rut where you can just
walk into the OR like fiveminutes beforehand, like I've
got this, like not a problem.
But when it comes down to whenyou start seeing, you know the
(50:02):
salaries going up in otherplaces, you have to determine,
you know, is that extra $10,000a year really worth it?
Like to make a big change.
Maybe, maybe not $10,000, itseems like a big number.
It can make.
It can be a big difference,like my kids started going to
private school, that extra$10,000 a year right back out
the door but well needed.
(50:22):
So you sort of have to think youknow how much of a jump, how
much is this actually going toimprove your life?
Type of deal.
That's going to be a reallydecision you have to sit down
and think about.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
Yeah, totally.
Thank you so much, Patrick.
I learned a ton and I justreally know that our community
is going to be better fromhearing your expertise and your
insider knowledge.
So I just wanted to reallyshare my gratitude for you being
on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (50:45):
Oh well, first of all , I really want to thank you
Just what you've done the pastcouple of years.
I think the CAA community is ina great place where we've had
people sort of stepping outsidethe OR.
So, like yourself, likeJabeli's doing on social media
awesome stuff, getting thattransparency out there.
Rad and Sasi from HarmonyAnesthesia they started up the
(51:06):
first CA locums company.
It's spectacular.
We see people that are startingto really work with students
trying to get into school, likeAspiring CA Anesthesia One
Resource.
So I just want to thank you andfor everybody else out there,
sort of letting our voices beheard, because this is what
really moves our community tobecome bigger, become stronger.
I don't want to say wellaccepted, but yeah, I mean we've
(51:28):
become more accepted becausepeople are now just like oh yeah
, I've heard of you guys, asopposed to what's a CAA.
So thank you very much for whatyou're doing for everybody else
out there In case I forgot you,you're doing a great job.
I encourage people to really,you know, use your voice, share
who you are, share the community.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Awesome.
Well, Patrick, until I SOS textyou again, thanks for being
here.
Speaker 3 (51:49):
I'm looking forward to doing it again at some point.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Okay, so that was my conversation with Patrick
Flaherty from bagmaskcom.
I'll put a link in the shownotes for the resources he
mentioned, as well as just alink to the website, in case you
want to access thoseeducational resources.
And, you know, search on thejob board.
So, thank you, patrick.
Again, thank you for your kindwords, and he's right.
(52:13):
As we all use our voice as CAAs, our community keeps growing
and people who never knew aboutCAAs are learning who we are and
what we are and what we standfor, and so it really matters to
put yourself out there and totell people why you love this
profession and why it's morethan just you know giving
(52:35):
anesthesia and making money.
There's just so much more to it.
So I hope this episode wasreally helpful.
Again, as you heard, there is somuch nuance to making money as
a CAA.
There are so many particularsin the individual jobs of what
you have to do to make thatmoney, in terms of when you're
working and in what specialtyyou're working and what days of
(52:58):
the week you're working, and, ofcourse, then those differences
between salary and compensationand how these jobs are being
marketed or how they'remarketing themselves.
Sometimes they're talking abouttotal compensation versus your
actual take-home salary, and so,as we've said over and over
again in this episode, the bestthing for you is to be your own
(53:20):
advocate as an AA student,prospective AA or practicing CAA
at all levels.
This is a dynamic job marketthat is really unprecedented,
and you know just healthcare ingeneral in the United States is
changing so much and laws passand things change and you know
it's hard to keep track ofeverything.
(53:40):
So I do hope this is a goodrepresentation of what's going
on right now, january 2025.
If you have anything to add orany questions or maybe something
you feel like I didn't getquite right, please feel free to
text me.
There's a link in the shownotes that goes directly to me
and we can start a conversation.
I learn from you all.
(54:02):
I only know what I know, andone of the things I love doing
is finding people who know morethan me and just letting them
teach me.
It's truly one of my passionsto talk to people who are an
expert in their field and, yeah,I learned so much from you all.
So thank you everyone who I SOStexted Patrick Flaherty from
(54:23):
bagmascom, jen from AnesthesiaOneSource, sarah Whitfield from
AspiringCAAcom and ChabeliRodriguez from CAA Lifestyle
Speaking of which I am curating,in the show notes as well, some
links to social media poststhat offer just really quick
glimpses into salary, somepeople's personal journeys with
(54:47):
salary, some CAA contentcreators, so that you can have
access to the largerconversation.
If this is your first foray intotalking about money and CAAs,
okay, I think that wraps up thisconversation about how much
money do CAAs make in yourComplete Guide to Understanding
Certified AnesthesiologistAssistance.
(55:08):
So the good news is there isone more episode that I have
planned on the agenda for thisseries to completely understand
everything you need to knowabout a CAA, or everything I can
tell you in five episodes andI'm kind of at a crossroads.
There are two topics that Ireally want to speak on.
(55:29):
One intimidates me more thanthe other, and I feel like
that's probably a sign I shoulddo the one that's scarier for me
, but I have some opinions onthe two topics and I think I'm
going to go to my Instagram andlet you all decide.
So if you are not following meon Instagram, it's really the
only social media platform Ihave.
(55:51):
It's the only one I show up onsemi-regularly, and when this
episode launches, I am going topoll the audience to see what
you guys want as the fifth andfinal installment in this
complete guide to understandingcertified anesthesiologist
assistance.
So follow me on Instagram atawakenedanesthetist.
If you have any other questionsor want to contact me, I'm
(56:14):
available by email atawakenedanesthetist, at gmailcom
.
And let's see what else do Ilike to tell you at the end of
these episodes.
You can sign up for theAwakened Anesthetist newsletter
in the show notes, as well asreceive a free link to a
30-minute webinar how to startmeditation as a CAA.
(56:36):
Free for you for signing up.
So, yeah, that's all in theshow notes.
Go there and let's talk soon,y'all.
Welcome to the Awakened Anesthetist podcast,
the first podcast to highlightthe CAA experience.
I'm your host, mary Jean, andI've been a certified
anesthesiologist assistant forclose to two decades.
Throughout my journey andstruggles, I've searched for
guidance that includes my uniqueperspective as a CAA.
At one of my lowest points, Idecided to turn my passion for
(00:28):
storytelling and my belief thatthe CAA profession is uniquely
able to create a life by designinto a podcast.
If you are a practicing CAA,current AA student or someone
who hopes to be one, I encourageyou to stick around and
experience the power of being ina community filled with voices
(00:49):
who sound like yours, sharingexperiences you never believed
possible.
I know you will find yourselfhere at the Awakened Anesthetist
Podcast.
Welcome in, hello AwakenedAnesthetist community and
welcome back to the AwakenedAnestis podcast.
I'm your host, mary Jean.
(01:09):
I'm so grateful you're here.
If you're a practicing CAA or acurrent AA student or someone
who hopes to one day be a futureAA student, I'm really grateful
that you found this feed, thispodcast, this community.
It's such a rare and specialthing to find a group of CAAs
(01:31):
because, number one, there's nota lot of us and number two,
there's even fewer of us, sortof putting ourselves out there
trying to find community, createcommunity share about the
profession.
And as I have continued on thispodcasting journey, I can just
really feel that one of my mainreasons for being is to create
(01:53):
deeper connection within the CAAcommunity connection to
yourself, connection to yourwork in the world as a CAA and
connections with other people inthis community.
So I'm just so grateful you'rehere and I love bringing this
podcast to you.
Today.
You have tuned in to the fourthinstallment of the Complete
(02:15):
Guide to Understanding CertifiedAnesthesiologist Assistance.
This episode is going to be abreakdown of how much money CAAs
make.
The first three episodes are inthe back feed of whatever
podcast platform you'relistening on.
They are a deep dive into whata CAA is and is not.
(02:35):
They also include where canCAAs work, which is a more
complicated scenario than youwould think.
And the last one is why I thinkyou should not be a CAA, as
well as some reasons why I lovethe profession and highly
recommend it.
(02:56):
So to really understand and getthe most out of this episode
even though this one might beone that draws you in you
probably want to listen to thoseback three episodes because I'm
going to be using some language, some jargon.
I might be speaking sort ofquickly and if you're really new
to the profession, it might behard to get all of the takeaways
or really understand what I'msaying without those three prior
(03:19):
episodes.
So if you're with me and you'reall caught up and you want to
talk about how much CAAs make, Ireally want to stress that this
is a conversation that's meantto be sort of a best friend
conversation or, you know, yourmentor, your CAA mentor, just
giving it to you really real andgiving you some behind the
scenes explaining things, justlike I would if we were having a
(03:42):
friendly conversation overcoffee and you were asking me
questions about salary and howthis is all created and
compensation plans and I haverecorded this episode, I'm not
lying probably four times and Ikeep not liking it and I'm not
exactly sure why, except for thefact that talking about money
(04:03):
is a little bit trickyno-transcript, as well as
(04:33):
someone who feels very deeplycommitted to the profession that
I in no way want to be like,join our profession.
It's so amazing.
You get paid a lot of moneyperiod, end of story.
Oh, amazing, you get paid a lotof money period end of story,
because being a CAA, yes, has aperk of making a good salary,
and there are so many otherreasons to also be a CAA, and it
(04:54):
is a very weighted decision andthe money will not make you
happy if you are not meant to bea CAA.
Giving anesthesia is a veryparticular type of career.
Being a CAA is actually a verylimiting career in terms of
transitioning your skills toother areas in the medical
workforce Certainly notimpossible to transition, but it
(05:17):
is a very unique, veryspecialized master's of
anesthesia degree that you knowmakes you basically an expert in
doing exactly one job.
So the purpose of this episodeis to shed some light onto three
areas that I think areparticularly important to
(05:37):
understand, as well as threeareas that I think people
haven't really talked a lotabout, and those three areas are
the history of money and theCAA profession.
The second one is my take onhow the salary is one aspect of
the money, and we also have toremember on the flip side of
(06:00):
every big salary is also a largeamount of student loan debt.
So I really want to share somemore information about how much
it costs to become a CAA.
And then the third piece that Ireally want to talk about is
trying to break down why thesalary of a CAA can vary so much
(06:21):
from state to state or city tocity within the same state, or
even from institution toinstitution within the same city
.
There can be different salariesand sometimes a large range of
salaries, and if you are notfamiliar with this profession
and or if you're a CAA and youjust only know about your local
(06:41):
community of CAAs, you might notrealize that you could make
more or work less or workdifferently in a different area
of the state or city or country,because CAAs, again, there's
not very many of us and we tendto just only know about our
immediate surroundings.
It's kind of new for us to beout there on social media
talking about how much money wemake and where we live and why
(07:04):
we get paid, what we do and howyou make that money, and so I'm
just going to add some clarityto all of that for people who
are practicing CAAs andespecially for people who are
new to the profession orconsidering becoming a CAA, so
you can kind of understand whatgoes into someone's salary, all
the many factors, what goes intosomeone's salary, all the many
(07:28):
factors.
Okay, so we probably shouldstart with just me stating what
the average annual salary of aCAA right now currently it is
January 2025.
And I would say that theaverage full-time salary of a
working CAA with zero years ofexperience so a new grad is
(07:48):
anywhere from $190,000 a year to$300,000 a year.
And the wide range of thatsalary the $190,000 to $300,000,
can be very confusing, as whythere's there that difference
and what makes up thatdifference.
And so in this episode I reallywant to shed light on where
(08:10):
those numbers even come from.
How can there be such adifference?
I want to explain some of that,but I first think it's really
interesting to start with thehistory of our salary, because
we certainly were not making$190,000 or anywhere near that
when the profession started inthe very early 1970s, when the
(08:32):
first classes were graduatingand working as practicing AAs.
At the time they were calledanesthesiologists assistants at
the time, and I have just aunique perspective because my
dad, dan Ladke, happens to bethe second graduating class of
CAAs out of one of the originalschools.
So teeny history lesson EmoryUniversity in Atlanta and Case
(08:56):
Western Reserve University,their main campus in Cleveland,
were the first two AA schoolsand the only AA schools for
decades and it is only recentlynow where we have more than 20
AA schools and counting as of2025, all of that growth has
happened really within my career.
(09:17):
I graduated from the same schoolmy dad did Case Western Reserve
University in Cleveland Ohio.
I graduated in 2008 and my dadgraduated in 1974.
So really in the 17 years I'vebeen practicing as a CAA,
there's been a gigantic boom inschools created.
That, will you know, createmore CAAs in the world, which
(09:41):
has obviously had a huge impacton the economy for CAAs and our
salaries.
So I have this very specialperson I could call my dad and
I'm going to play a clip rightnow because I was like wouldn't
that be interesting to hear howmuch AAs used to make?
And so I called my dad and Ijust asked him some questions
(10:01):
about his beginning salary, whathe could remember and let me
play that now because it's superinteresting I think you're
going to be kind of blown away.
So where you come in is hopingyou could remember how much you
made you graduated in 1974.
And then how much you made inthe first job and then, if you
(10:21):
remember your first big jump inpay.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
I remember both of them.
Okay, my first job, st VincentCharity I made $12,000 a year.
That did not include call orovertime pay, which took me up
to about $18,000.
Okay, there was about 6,000 inovertime and call.
The next big jump that I hadwas when I went to Seattle in 76
(10:55):
, mary was that and my salarywent to $25,000 a year but there
was no overtime.
Thousand dollars a year, butthere was no overtime.
There was just a straight eighthours a day and no, no calls,
(11:17):
no weekends or anything likethat.
Then I came back from seattle81 or 82.
81 or 82.
Back to Cleveland and my salarywas probably at $50,000.
$40,000.
$40,000?
Yeah, it was about $50,000.
(11:38):
It doubled almost my salary inSeattle.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
All right.
Well, that was what I washoping for.
I don't think very many peoplecan call one of the earliest
CAAs and ask them how much theymade, so I know that will be an
interesting thing.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
Yeah, now we were at 12,000 a year.
We were the highest in the city.
Wow, I know Metro, that was acharity.
Yeah, that was a charity.
Um, metro, I think, was at 10.
They started 10 000 a year and,yeah, they may have had better
(12:18):
benefit, I don't know butawesome interesting, awesome,
okay, oh, and also wait.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Do you remember how much Case cost Case when it was
an undergrad?
Do you remember what the costof school was my freshman year
with tuition.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Just tuition was $4,000.
Oh my gosh, yeah, $4,000.
And if you had room and board,I think that added on another
$2,000.
So I think it was about 6,000total.
Of course I was living at home,so I was 4,000.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, okay, all right , thank you, I'll talk to you
later All right, bye, bye.
Thanks, dad, for offering thosememories and your experience.
I actually started my love ofstorytelling from my dad and if
you knew him as a CAA, he was abig storyteller.
He was also a really greateducator and spent the last
(13:19):
years of his career atUniversity of Missouri, kansas
City MSA program.
He retired several years agoand now is enjoying retirement
with my mom and you could tellthat they've been married for
almost 50 years because you hearmy mom in the background
answering the questions for him.
But yeah, I just I love that Ihave that resource and I can
(13:40):
share him with all of you.
Okay, I will then share that.
When I first started in 2008, Iwas working in the state of
Missouri, which was a fairly newstate for AAs at the time, and
my beginning base salary was$120,000 a year, and then I had
the additional ability to makeabout $40,000 to $50,000 extra
(14:06):
in call pay and overtime pay,and so I think the first year I
came out with about $160,000 ofsalary, of money made, and now I
am overall, like per year,making around a hundred thousand
dollars total.
I make two hundred dollars anhour working PRN and I'm working
(14:28):
about four to six shifts amonth.
So I'm working far less andmaking you know almost my base
salary.
I probably I haven't actuallygot my W-2 yet for this first
year of working PRN, but Isuspect I made more than
$120,000 just working thatlittle.
So it may seem kind of obviousto state, but I want to put a
(14:51):
fine point on the fact that theycan advertise.
So a job can advertise, youknow, a $250,000 salary or
compensation package and withinthat you're going to want to
figure out the fine print of howmany hours you need to be
working in order to make thatamount of money.
(15:12):
So, for example, you might beguaranteed some sort of base
salary let's say $170,000 basesalary and all the additional
money to get from $170,000 to$250,000 is call pay or overtime
opportunities or workingweekends or nights.
(15:33):
That could be true and it alsocould be true that it's $250,000
and maybe you get put into thecall pool.
You don't have a choice whetheryou take call or not.
Maybe you can like trade themaway, but the $250,000 per year
means that you have to take yourfair share of call.
And of course the next questionis what does call mean?
(15:54):
Does call mean I'm sleeping atthe hospital?
Does it mean that I have tolive within a certain mile
radius and be availableimmediately on my phone to come
in.
You know, to drop everything,come in and so the money is sort
of a useless point until youknow how much work you need to
do to secure that compensationpackage.
(16:16):
And again, I keep using salaryversus compensation package
because they are two differentthings Salary is the money that
you get in your paycheck everytwo weeks and your compensation,
which can be listed in a job,like they can say, the total
compensation is $300,000 or$350,000, but your salary maybe
(16:38):
is only $250,000.
And the other extra money ismaybe them referring to things
such as sign-on bonus or travelallotments for educational
opportunities or CME funds orways that they cover your
insurance or distributions intoa profit sharing.
(16:59):
All of these things in termsthat you're going to need to
understand to really have anunderstanding of how much money
you should be expecting in yourpaycheck every two weeks or
month or week or however theypay you, and then where this
other compensation is going.
Because it is still valuable to, let's say, have your employer
(17:19):
pay your entire health insurancepremium.
That is still a value to you.
That has money attached to it,but it's not actual money put
into your paycheck.
Ok, hopefully that's clearenough to say that you need to
ask a lot of questions, thatthings are rapidly changing when
(17:39):
it comes to salary,compensation, the money that you
will receive as a working CAA,and that it is very much tied to
the economy, to supply anddemand, to a lot of other
outside factors that we're goingto talk about later on this
episode, like location, likewhere you are in the United
(18:02):
States and how desperately yourhospital needs people, yeah.
So hopefully that helps sort ofclarify why some websites or
places on the internet can say,yeah, the average salary is
$170,000.
And then another place says, oh, the salary is $350,000.
That's kind of a lot ofdifferent money and how did they
come up with that?
So, ask questions, be your ownbest advocate and understand
(18:27):
what you're getting into beforeyou just think, oh, this is a
really great way to make a bigsalary.
Okay, let's move on, because wehave so much more to talk about
.
The second thing I wanted totalk about is student debt.
So, yes, we make $190,000 to$300,000 of salary or of
(18:49):
compensation, but you have topay to go to AA school.
There is no scholarship.
There's no full ride to AAschool.
Unless you have someone in yourlife who is helping you pay for
it, you will be coming out ofgrad school AA school with a
significant amount of studentloan debt.
It is not possible to work inany appreciable way while in AA
(19:11):
school, so unfortunately thatmeans you have to take out a lot
of student loans or have abunch of savings.
Now, when I graduated from CaseWestern Reserve University in
2008, I had a total of $160,000of student loan debt.
That was about $40,000 fromundergrad and $120,000 from
(19:32):
graduate.
I would say that was probablyabout average, and because I've
graduated so long ago, I wasn'tsure how those numbers had
changed, and so I kind of phonedseveral other CAA friends, caa
content creators, who are notshy either about sharing their
salary or how much debt theywere in or are still in, and it
(19:55):
seems that you know, despite thecircumstance where you have
someone who pays for it or youhad a huge savings before you
went to AA school, about$200,000 of student loan debt is
normal to come out of AA schoolwith.
And I spoke with the founder ofAnesthesia OneSource, which is a
fabulous website if you are aprospective AA student and
(20:17):
wondering which AA school wouldbe your best fit.
Anesthesiaonesourcecomabsolutely incredible resources.
She has a really cool andrecently updated infographic of
the cost of all of the AAschools and she was kind enough
to allow me to link it in theshow notes.
But it really shows howexpensive AA school is.
(20:40):
And per Jen, who is the founderof Anesthesia OneSource, aa
school only gets more expensiveyear after year.
The prices keep going up.
You know several reasons.
I don't know that I'm going toget into them now, but just to
expect that AA school will onlybecome more expensive.
The least expensive school atthis moment total tuition costs,
(21:02):
so not including fees, like allyour books and supplies and
things, and not including livingexpenses, which of course you
have to factor in.
So this is not including that.
The cheapest school is if youare a Colorado resident and
going to the University ofColorado is $87,780.
The most expensive school isUniversity of Texas at Houston
(21:26):
to non-residents.
So of course that's a stateschool.
If you're a resident it's alittle cheaper.
If you're a non-resident it is$192,000.
Yikes, let me see what Case is,just because now I'm interested
.
Case is $144,276 tuition onlyto go to their AA school and it
(21:47):
looks like that's across alltheir campuses.
Wow, that's kind of expensive.
So again, yes, you make a greatsalary, but you're going to come
out with a hefty amount ofstudent loans to be paid back
over the course of whatever theloan terms are 10 years, 15
years, 20 years and, of course,you have options to consolidate
(22:09):
loans, to put it on a personalloan, pay off all the student
loans, put it on oneconsolidated personal loan and
pay that.
Of course, there's interestrates involved with all of this
and interest accrues on yourstudent loans and all of that
financial stuff needs to bethought of when you are looking
at this profession, as well aswhen you are about to graduate
(22:31):
and wanting to take your firstjob.
Yes, maybe you're going to make$200,000, but you need to be
aware of what your plan is topay off your student loans or
the debt you have.
You know, going into your firstjob, do you want to sort of hit
it hard and pay it all off?
You know, within the first fewyears of working, do you want to
spread it out?
How much of your budget are yougoing to put towards paying off
(22:54):
your student loan debt?
Huge, huge suck of your salaryis paying off your student loan
debt.
Huge, huge suck of your salaryis paying off your student loan
debt and people approach that indifferent ways.
So one of the beautiful thingsabout being a CAA is that you
make enough money that you canreasonably pay off your student
loans.
You know, if you were to thinkof getting maybe a teaching
(23:15):
degree from Harvard or something, you could come out with the
same amount of student loan debtand then if you think of trying
to pay that back on a teacher'ssalary, it's going to take you
a lot longer than paying off$200,000 of student loan debt as
a CAA who's able to make$200,000 plus a year.
So that's a huge perk of theCAA salary is that you actually
(23:39):
can afford to pay off the schoolthat it took to get there, but
it's not nothing.
I believe I was paying close to$3,000 every month on my student
loans and it still took me nineyears to pay off my student
loans.
Of course I got married and Ipaid for my own wedding and we
bought a house and of courselife happens and I was able to
pay for all of that myself, butit still took me nine years to
(24:00):
pay off $160,000 of student loandebt.
I think that's all I want tosay about that.
But, yes, do not forget thatit's going to cost you money to
make money.
So the third thing that I wantto share is what I was probably
most ignorant about and mostnervous to comment on, which is
(24:22):
current market trends.
And you know the very active jobmarket right now and that
number that I told you, sort oftop of the episode salaries
being, on average, $190,000 to$300,000.
That's very new.
It's very new for a CAA to bereaching that $300,000 top mark
(24:44):
and even now I just saw a salaryfor more than $300,000.
Like actively, it's changingday by day, depending on a whole
bunch of things that I'm notsuper sure of.
I kind of know, but I wanted tobring in an expert for this
piece so that CAAs could bearmed with the most current
(25:05):
information, even if it'schanging rapidly.
And if you are a prospective AAstudent, I think this is really
going to give you a greatresource.
Number one the expert I'm aboutto introduce and give you a
really good sense of why therecan be that large fluctuation of
salary, why some hospitals canbe paying $190,000 and some
(25:27):
hospitals maybe have to pay$300,000 or are paying $300,000
or more, and again, I justwanted to give more of the
nuance behind some of these bignumbers that we're currently
hearing in the CAA profession.
So, without further ado, let meintroduce Patrick Flaherty.
Patrick is a fellow CAA.
(25:48):
He is also the co-founder ofbagmasscom.
That is an anesthesia job boardas well as educational resource
site, and I'll have him explainmore exactly about the vision
and mission of bagmaskcom.
But Patrick popped into my mindwhen I was thinking who can I
call that will know about reallythe moment-to-moment changes in
(26:11):
the job market and really whatcircumstances brought CAAs to
the salary that we are seeingand enjoying now in January 2025
.
So, patrick, thank you so muchfor saying yes and thank you so
much for being the expert neededin the CAA job market.
Do you mind sharing whatbagmasscom is and how it has
(26:33):
really put your finger on thepulse of the CAA job market, how
it has really put your fingeron the pulse of the CAA job
market.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
So really, to explain what bagmascom is, you sort of
need to hear its origin story.
And that really began withtalking to students whether
they're SAA students or CRNAstudents or residents about how
to be a professional in theanesthesia job market, because
the schools do an amazing job ofteaching us how to be
anesthesia providers.
But when it came time to stepout and start your career, I had
(26:59):
no idea and most students don'thave an idea of how you write a
CV, how you apply for jobs, howyou understand what a sign-on
bonus is if you're lucky enoughto get one.
So it really began with tryingto fill this gap of professional
development for students.
So I thought it'd be a greatidea.
Let's start writing theseprofessional development
articles.
And on top of that, I want tobe able to create a way for us
to give back, and that was withthe form of the anesthesia
(27:20):
scholarship, because therereally wasn't anything at that
time.
But then the catch comes is howdo you pay for that anesthesia
scholarship?
Do I pay for it out of pocket?
I wish I could.
I don't make that much money,but how can I get companies.
How could I reach out to theanesthesia companies, the groups
that we're going to be workingfor one day, to help sponsor
(27:42):
this?
And the more I thought about it, the more work I realized was
going to be to constantly go outand ask these companies hey,
please sponsor this anesthesiascholarship.
I thought, well, why don't Istart a job board to go along
with this website?
Let's just make one place whereyou can go, learn all the stuff
you need to know about to be aprofessional, create a career,
get a scholarship and then beable to find a job at the end of
(28:03):
your student journey and then,even once you're past being a
student, you know practicing,you can come back and find a job
.
Speaker 1 (28:09):
And the idea was, in fact, you get these companies,
come on, post their jobs theycould pay the website and then I
could turn around and take thatmoney and give it back to the
community.
And since its launch, I feellike you have expanded into
different states, like the reachof it has really broadened.
Can you speak on how yourunderstanding of the CAA job
(28:33):
market has deepened and where itis now in terms of even just
seeing the trends over the whatfive years?
How long has the job board beenup?
Speaker 3 (28:41):
No, so it's actually probably six years as of today
or tomorrow, but I don't reallycount that first year.
That was just really a lot oftrial and error.
But, holy cow, to be a CAA orSAA right now, it couldn't be
any better.
I've never seen the market theway it has been before and just
(29:02):
the growth that we're seeing.
So let's take why that ismultiple reasons.
One is we've had some greatleadership start thinking about
we need to open up more schools,so we're putting more providers
out there and this comes to bea great question of like how
many schools are too many whenyou start dumping out more
providers?
We can talk on life about that.
I've been on both sides of thisuse and I'm on the opposite side
(29:25):
now, where I was 10 years ago,and that's where I think we do
need more providers.
We need people to get theirvoices out there and start
knocking on doors and say thebig turning point really was
COVID.
As horrible as COVID was for alot of families, a lot of people
(29:50):
individually, it shined a lighton the anesthesia market.
That was sort of it was alwaysthere, but they were able to
sort of mask it.
Now it's just how manyproviders were actually needed
to fill positions.
Oh, wow.
So it's COVID.
Covid has been the big drivingforce.
It's shown that they need moreproviders out there and what
this has allowed is for morehospitals to open up.
(30:10):
It's allowed for more states toopen up and at the same time,
we've seen this increase insalaries not only just for CAAs
but for the CRNAs andanesthesiologists.
Because when it comes down tothis increase in salary, it
comes down to market demand.
This increase in salary, itjust comes down to market demand
.
Okay, Before COVID, a lot oftimes the salary stayed stagnant
(30:33):
for a very long time.
There wasn't really anythingpushing them up.
The only time I ever saw anincrease in my salary is when
one anesthesia group left andanother one came in and they
wanted to keep the providersthere.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
But what COVID did was it showed all.
Right now we're reallystruggling trying to get
providers in this hospital.
We need to increase our salary.
So I'm going to keep using DCas a great example, because it
ended up becoming a market workthere.
One group would go up, nextgroup go up and the next group
go up and it's just a ladderinto your system until they
finally got to a.
They're doing pretty well tothe point where DC right now
(31:05):
unfortunately unfortunately,depending on how you look at it
if you're a person licensingpart-time or PRN there's no
spots in DC right now Really nohiring.
So Washington Hospital Centermight be hiring.
I've heard one to two people iscoming here.
That place could never getanybody to stay there.
There was always a revolvingdoor, but they've come around
where the salary makes itworthwhile.
(31:27):
For a long time they thoughtmajor city people want to live
here.
We can pay them less becausethey want to be here and it sort
of worked but it didn't work.
So DC is the only marketplaceright now in the US where AAs
would have a tough time findinga job.
Wow, except outside of DC, andlike the market's awesome,
everywhere you go there's jobopportunities.
(31:47):
It's never been a better timefor you to be able to go out
there and really sort of cherrypick where you want to work okay
and um uh.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
One of the reasons I started this podcast is because
CAAs can get really siloed inthe reality of like the 20 mile
radius around where we live,which is true for me in terms of
the job market.
I know fairly well the KansasCity job market.
Share with us what it lookslike in terms of the regions of
the country and you can reallyspeak to a CAA who understands
(32:21):
the fact that we can't work inevery state.
Really speak directly to maybeeven a practicing CAA, if you
want to use that language, onwhy different regions of the
country have different salariesand where you're seeing demand
higher or lower.
I mean, I don't even know whatquestion to ask because I don't
know the details.
But talk on that, patrick.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
Yes, all that stuff.
It's a very complicated topic.
Yes, because even withincertain states you see regions
where the pay is a lot higherversus other areas and I can't
always answer to why that mightbe in certain states.
But I'd tell you right now, thestates with the three highest,
most amount of job posts and itsort of makes sense, one per
(33:04):
population of the thing is, andone just because we're A's has
been for a long time.
So Georgia, still one of thehottest spots Most amount of
jobs you'll see on a job boardright now are coming out of
Georgia.
Number two and three are goingto be Texas and Florida, and
part of that is land mass andthe population there.
There's a lot more places butthere's still a lot more
hospitals we could potentiallybe in in those locations.
(33:25):
As far as salaries going, it'spretty much the same across the
country right now.
A lot of things, at least forthe top practicing CAs when I
mean top practicing, I like thebest CA, people with experience.
A lot of the jobs are toppingout now around $260,000,
$250,000, $270,000, in someareas even a little bit higher.
(33:46):
For a new grad, though you'regoing to be like well, I'm not
making that, they're onlyshowing me like $200,000.
But that's the way a lot ofthese companies work is.
There's a tier system.
You come in, you start at abase level and then, based on
your years of experience orsometimes it's even just being
within the same group you getbumped up higher and higher.
But even on that, 200,000 isvery, very common nowadays for
(34:06):
somebody to come out practicing,which is insane to think about.
It's awesome.
I mean, if you're an AA studentright now, you don't really
realize because you don't havethe perspective of like.
You have life, you've won.
Basically, you've won lottery.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
At this point in time , you have a job, you're coming
out in your early 20s,especially if you went straight
from college to A school.
You're crushing it.
You really are.
Yeah, can you speak a littlebit to whether the 260 is a
straight salary or does thatmean you're working overtime or
call?
Or is that with package, likewhen you see a salary can we
assume that is not includingbenefits or is including
(34:45):
benefits?
Can you speak to that?
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Yeah, don't assume anything.
Okay, great, that's.
One of the great things aboutwhat I've learned with bagmascom
is I've had opportunities totalk to lots of recruiters, all
from private practices to biggroups is ask questions Anytime
you go in for an interview.
It's a two-way street,especially nowadays.
Like the power is you.
(35:07):
Nowadays we have the power ofwhere we want to take a job.
So ask all the questions youwant.
You want to make sure youunderstand every single detail,
because there's some deceptivepractices out there where some
group will put this huge numberout there, like $300,000, but
that's total compensation.
And so to give you an idea ofwhat total compensation is for
salary, salary is what's goingto be paid every two weeks.
(35:30):
So multiply that by 26,.
That's your salary.
So maybe that's $250,000.
Sometimes these groups, like Isaid, they'll give you total
compensation so that other$50,000 is made up with taking
call.
Potentially it's a retentionbonus, there's incentive bonuses
.
It might include your healthinsurance, your retirement
package.
So you really need to ask thosequestions, like you know.
(35:53):
All right, what is the salary?
Now, going back to what youasked about originally okay,
that salary does that include metaking call?
The call nights is a weekend.
Is my expected to work umholidays or is that just the
base salary and then call is anadditional top.
That so I can you know I mightbe getting a 250, but I can take
(36:14):
the accessory call.
It might be cardiac call, justweekend call, trauma call and
get an extra $20,000, $30,000.
So it sort of gives you an ideaof how that's broken down.
Yes, please don't be afraid toask questions.
That's what you're there.
You want to join a group that'sgoing to be open and
transparent with you.
They're not.
It might not want to be a placeyou want to be.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Yeah, and that transparency, like that shift to
being transparent, is so new, Ifeel like in the job market, in
the anesthesia job market andthen specifically the CAA job
market.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
I encourage AAs being very open about what you're
making.
All right, that just helps usas a community in multiple ways.
I mean individually your groupyou might barely have a pay bump
, but two, it also opens up thedoors, I think, for a lot of
these groups and hospitals torealize no, we are getting the
same amount CRNAs are getting.
(37:06):
So if they do decide to open up, there's never this
conversation of, hey, shouldCRNAs get paid more than NAA?
Only caveat to that I will saythere are circumstances where
that should occur.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
And that's where CRNAs are taken.
Call by themselves, not adoctor all night and they'll be
completely differentcircumstance.
Yes, yes, when the anesthesiacare team model is being
(37:43):
utilized, a CRNA and an AAworking in that model should be
paid equally.
Yes, that is a huge push in ourlegislation and in our
education.
Like to understand that thereis no difference thing that
seems to be happening.
That happened after I graduated.
These like enormous sign-onbonuses and how those are
usually structured.
Are there any pitfalls that weneed to be watching out for?
If we see this like reallyeye-catching number, are we like
selling our soul to thathospital for the rest of our
(38:03):
lives?
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Oh, so you're in the same boat as me.
It's like I remember when I wasgraduating I think there
might've been like maybe one ortwo practices that were offering
sign-on bonuses.
It's like, what is that?
And to go back to your point,you know, am I selling your soul
?
I think that is part of therespect of us being people have
been practicing for a while,because for quite a while there
sign sign-on bonuses were onlygiven out to places where they
(38:25):
were desperate for people.
Today it's the main street,like but if you're not giving a
sign-on bonus, almost like, whyaren't you giving a sign-on
bonus?
Type of deal.
Really, lots of groups havesigned with I'm the same boat.
I never had a sign-on bonus, um,just when I was switching jobs
I'm on to my third job now um,just never had the opportunity
they weren weren't offering them.
(38:46):
So completely jealous,completely fascinated by sign-on
bonus.
I'm hoping to one day get asign-on bonus, but the way
things are going, I doubt it.
Sort of going like you want towork less part-time, all that
jazz.
So sign-on bonuses, how they'restructured, should you take
them?
What do they mean?
You're going to have differentthoughts if you hop online to
(39:09):
talk about this.
We did a little bit of a deepdive on it last year to really
run the numbers, if it makessense.
We have two articles up thereright now.
I highly suggest you take alook at them, just so you
understand what you're gettinginto.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
We'll link them.
I did not come across those, sosend them to me and I'll put
them in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
I got too well hidden .
I got to get them out there.
My thoughts on sign-on bonusthis is myself If you're
offering a sign-on bonus, takeit, absolutely, take it, 100%.
Take it, even if you thinkyou're going to be leaving
within a year.
Take that money.
That's money you would not getotherwise.
And I say that with the caveatof you need to understand what
you're signing on for though,okay.
And second thing is, if you'renot a financially responsible
(39:48):
person, anything might be a,believe me.
Really don't take it then.
Okay.
The reason I say this let'sit's a lot easier if I write
this out or try saying thisverbally.
Let's say we'll back it up.
Most sign-on bonuses right noware anywhere from 15 to 25000
per year.
They can be sometimes multiples, where it's like $25,000 every
(40:09):
single year.
So you might see sign-onbonuses for $75,000.
They're going to be paid offthe course of three years.
Each group does it a little bitdifferently.
Some might give you that$75,000 off front.
Some do it as a sign-on bonusas soon as you sign, you get
$25,000.
Others do it as your first dayyou get that $25,000.
And then, at the beginning ofyour second year you get $25,000
(40:30):
.
And the third year you get$25,000.
So once again, it goes back tosalaries.
Make sure you really understandwhat you're signing up for and
what you'd have to pay back ifyou were to leave early.
Leaving early I'm going to getback to why you should always
take it here, but I want to keepwith the strain of thought.
(40:51):
Leaving early.
Paying back is done differentlyby groups.
So you take a larger group like, let's say, envision.
I know for a fact uh, I shouldsay for a fact I know that
they've worked with people thisway in the past is that, say,
you take a sign-on bonus, youowe them two years, you're going
to be leaving after a year, butthey've already given you the
full, let's say, $50,000.
What they'll do is they'll haveyou pay that back in increments
(41:11):
over your final remainingchecks.
So it's not like you have todig into your bank account, pull
out $25,000 and get it back toyou, which is a very nice way to
do it.
Other groups might require youto pay it back right away.
This goes back to where I sayyou have to be financially
responsible when you take asign-on bonus unless you know
you're going to absolutely bethere for two or three years,
(41:32):
whatever the duration is forthat, my suggestion is take the
money out.
They're going to take a wholebunch of taxes out of your
sign-on bonus, and that's fine.
Because if you think about itthis way, if I were to give you
$100 and you had to give 50% tothe government, you're still
walking away with an extra $50in your pocket you wouldn't
normally have.
You're ahead of the game.
(41:53):
So people get worried about allright.
So what if I have to pay thisback?
So let's take the idea forsimple numbers.
Say you're given $24,000sign-on bonus.
You're going to be paid $12,000at the very first day of your
job and you're going to be paidanother $12,000 at the start of
your second year.
So basically, during that firstyear, if you were to leave at
(42:18):
any of those months let's sayyou leave at the six-month mark
period.
So you've been given $12,000,you haven't been given that
second 12 yet you'd only owe 50%.
Right?
Easy math.
You're halfway through the yearand you'd owe $6,000.
So basically, what happened isyou got $12,000.
Taxes were taken out, you putit in your bank account.
You should have that moneyready to pay back if you need it
(42:40):
.
Okay, that's what I said.
If you're not very sure aboutthis, what's interesting with
the math on the second year?
I love this fact and I didn'tknow this was.
This was the way it worked.
So you already got the twelvethousand dollars.
You made it through the firstyear.
They give you that secondtwelve thousand dollars.
Now, if you were to leave sixmonths into that second year,
(43:00):
you're not paying fifty percentof that back because your
contract is based now on it'sbeen based on 24 months.
You're being you're basing itoff of 18 months of already in
service.
So you're actually paying aquarter back of that $12,000,
that second one.
So you're not paying $6,000back, whatever.
What's quarter for that $3,000?
So you're only paying $3,000back at that point in time.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
So the longer you stay within that contract, the
less and less you're paying.
That applies to even if theygive it to you off-front.
Wow, okay, yes, I followed thatmath.
But basically you're rewardedfor the longer you stay and
fulfill your contract, you haveto pay back less and less.
So the longer you stay, you'reincentivized to stay.
Basically, yes.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
I mean as simple as that sounds, but sometimes it
gets a little tricky with howthey're paying it out.
Speaker 1 (43:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
And there was one other thing I want to mention
with that, but I'm sure it'llcome to me with your next
question.
Speaker 1 (43:54):
Yeah Well, I was just thinking this.
Of course, for everyone,listening is not a standard.
It is what the trends thatPatrick is seeing.
So you know it's all verynuanced.
But what Patrick is saying isthat you have to be asking all
these questions before takingthe sign-on bonus.
You want to be reallyunderstanding what you would
(44:15):
have to pay back if you end upunexpectedly or expectedly
moving, and you always want youknow it's just really smart to
have a little nest egg that youcan dip into, if something like
this, like a little emergencyfund, that could then also
double as your payback sign-onbonus if you were to take one.
(44:35):
What else do we want to say,patrick?
Speaker 3 (44:39):
So what I remember was, if you feel really
uncomfortable with taking anupfront sign-on bonus just
because you're not too sure thisis the right place for me, you
know life happens Ask them ifthey can make it a retention
bonus instead.
So instead of getting paidupfront after I complete my
first year, I get that $12,000,because then you're not on the
hook for leaving early and youcan continue to do that after
(45:00):
the second and the third year.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
Oh, that is a really great suggestion because that
behooves them, that makes itfeel like this person is going
to want to stay, as opposed togiving them the money up front.
Oh, that is a wonderfulsuggestion.
Yeah, people out there don't,you know, don't want to worry
about it.
Wonderful, great.
I wish I had that suggestion.
My last negotiation it's timeto switch jobs.
(45:24):
Okay, I think this might be mylast question.
We've covered so much but I'mwondering.
We touched on the transparencya little bit, but I'm wondering
when is the right time to bringup salary?
When you are looking for a newjob, like you're entertaining
maybe several offers, or you'rejust doing your first inquiry
(45:47):
into a posting on bagmaskcom,when is it appropriate to ask
how much I will be getting paid?
Speaker 3 (45:54):
don't lead with that question.
If you want to turn a group off.
It shouldn't be within thefirst 10, 15 minutes, but it
needs to be addressed and it'snot something you should be
afraid to address because you'reabout to commit a lot of time
to these people.
Generally, I would recommend it.
Once again, it depends on whattype of group you're talking to.
Are you talking to a nationalgroup?
Are you talking to a privategroup?
(46:14):
But either way, I would bringit up towards the end of the
conversation.
I would sort of say like allright, so we covered X, y and Z
out of curiosity, just so I canstart planning my future.
I want to make sure I'mfinancially sound.
What is the pay modeled here?
What is expected?
Shifts, bonuses, all that jazz.
(46:36):
They're expecting that,especially in today's market.
They know once again it goesback to we're in control.
They should feel comfortablewith that.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
So true, I personally , and I'm sure you personally,
have lived through that where itwas like a hush-hush, don't
talk about it and people aregetting paid differently at the
same amount of experience andthen all of a sudden that busted
open after COVID.
Are getting paid differently atthe same amount of experience
and then all of a sudden thatbusted open after COVID.
Anything else we need to know,patrick, that's inside your
brain, that needs to be recordedon this mic so we can all sort
of understand the money behindthe CAA profession and how best,
(47:11):
to you know, make our decisionon whether this profession is
right for us or a job move isright for us.
So let's talk to about, youknow, is this profession is
right for us or?
Speaker 3 (47:18):
a job move is right for us.
So let's talk about.
You know, is this professionright for you?
That's a very tough question.
You cannot let the money decide.
You know, is this the right jobfor you?
You're going to hear that witheverything.
But this is a much differentcareer.
It's one of the conversations Ihave with brand new students is
you're no longer studying topass a test, you're studying to
(47:38):
keep a test.
You're studying to keepsomebody alive.
You're studying to keepsomebody from getting hurt.
You're studying to make sure,30 years down the line, you can
pull some random fact out of theback of your brain to help save
a person's life.
I may not have to save a life,but just make sure nothing bad
goes on.
So the responsibility thatcomes along with this number is
(47:59):
a lot different than potentiallyany other job.
So that's something you reallyhave to think about.
The dedication, the sacrificesyou're going to have to make at
school are unbelievable.
You don't really realize howmuch you have to sort of cut
yourself off from the rest ofthe world, like your world
(48:20):
becomes your cohort ofclassmates going in there.
I mean, I still made everyopportunity to call my parents,
check on my brother and sister,but I had a lot of great friends
who are that's why they're mygreat friends.
Like they knew I was going tobe dropping off the nap for a
little while just to study.
I had to miss some funerals forsome of my buddies, which still
haunts me to this day, but theyunderstood, like I was in
(48:43):
school, this is nonstop.
So when you think about gettinginto this career, you got to
think about the sacrifices justto get to that point.
Now the good news is you have anamazing community that wants to
see you succeed.
You got your preceptors, yougot your teachers, you got your
classmates.
You're going to make some greatfriends throughout the program.
The doctors are going to meetthe CRNAs and nurses.
I mean, the healthcarecommunity is amazing.
I mean, it's one of my favoritethings about it.
The people in healthcare areoutstanding.
(49:04):
But then once you startpracticing too, you're going to
have to start.
Maybe, depending on yourpractice, you're going to have
to sacrifice nights.
You're going to have tosacrifice holidays, weekends,
you're going to miss birthdays.
So that number comes with theprice.
So that number comes with theprice.
You just have to figure outwhether or not you feel
comfortable with it.
For the practicing CA.
You had a question about thatSort of lost track of my career
spot there.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Yeah, just about making a career shift.
Like, gee, I feel like I'vebeen at a job for 10 years and
everyone else is getting thesehuge sign-on bonuses and should
I, you know, maybe negotiate orlook for a different job because
I'm not getting the best deal Ican be.
Speaker 3 (49:40):
Being in a job, same place for 10 years.
Sometimes you just need tochange the pace.
I mean honestly maybe it's justpicking up PR and shift
someplace else, just to sort ofwe're very smart people in
anesthesia, Like our minds needto be stimulated, and I think
sometimes you get in sort of thesame rut where you can just
walk into the OR like fiveminutes beforehand, like I've
got this, like not a problem.
But when it comes down to whenyou start seeing, you know the
(50:02):
salaries going up in otherplaces, you have to determine,
you know, is that extra $10,000a year really worth it?
Like to make a big change.
Maybe, maybe not $10,000, itseems like a big number.
It can make.
It can be a big difference,like my kids started going to
private school, that extra$10,000 a year right back out
the door but well needed.
(50:22):
So you sort of have to think youknow how much of a jump, how
much is this actually going toimprove your life?
Type of deal.
That's going to be a reallydecision you have to sit down
and think about.
Speaker 1 (50:31):
Yeah, totally.
Thank you so much, Patrick.
I learned a ton and I justreally know that our community
is going to be better fromhearing your expertise and your
insider knowledge.
So I just wanted to reallyshare my gratitude for you being
on the podcast.
Speaker 3 (50:45):
Oh well, first of all , I really want to thank you
Just what you've done the pastcouple of years.
I think the CAA community is ina great place where we've had
people sort of stepping outsidethe OR.
So, like yourself, likeJabeli's doing on social media
awesome stuff, getting thattransparency out there.
Rad and Sasi from HarmonyAnesthesia they started up the
(51:06):
first CA locums company.
It's spectacular.
We see people that are startingto really work with students
trying to get into school, likeAspiring CA Anesthesia One
Resource.
So I just want to thank you andfor everybody else out there,
sort of letting our voices beheard, because this is what
really moves our community tobecome bigger, become stronger.
I don't want to say wellaccepted, but yeah, I mean we've
(51:28):
become more accepted becausepeople are now just like oh yeah
, I've heard of you guys, asopposed to what's a CAA.
So thank you very much for whatyou're doing for everybody else
out there In case I forgot you,you're doing a great job.
I encourage people to really,you know, use your voice, share
who you are, share the community.
Speaker 1 (51:42):
Awesome.
Well, Patrick, until I SOS textyou again, thanks for being
here.
Speaker 3 (51:49):
I'm looking forward to doing it again at some point.
Speaker 1 (51:52):
Okay, so that was my conversation with Patrick
Flaherty from bagmaskcom.
I'll put a link in the shownotes for the resources he
mentioned, as well as just alink to the website, in case you
want to access thoseeducational resources.
And, you know, search on thejob board.
So, thank you, patrick.
Again, thank you for your kindwords, and he's right.
(52:13):
As we all use our voice as CAAs, our community keeps growing
and people who never knew aboutCAAs are learning who we are and
what we are and what we standfor, and so it really matters to
put yourself out there and totell people why you love this
profession and why it's morethan just you know giving
(52:35):
anesthesia and making money.
There's just so much more to it.
So I hope this episode wasreally helpful.
Again, as you heard, there is somuch nuance to making money as
a CAA.
There are so many particularsin the individual jobs of what
you have to do to make thatmoney, in terms of when you're
working and in what specialtyyou're working and what days of
(52:58):
the week you're working, and, ofcourse, then those differences
between salary and compensationand how these jobs are being
marketed or how they'remarketing themselves.
Sometimes they're talking abouttotal compensation versus your
actual take-home salary, and so,as we've said over and over
again in this episode, the bestthing for you is to be your own
(53:20):
advocate as an AA student,prospective AA or practicing CAA
at all levels.
This is a dynamic job marketthat is really unprecedented,
and you know just healthcare ingeneral in the United States is
changing so much and laws passand things change and you know
it's hard to keep track ofeverything.
(53:40):
So I do hope this is a goodrepresentation of what's going
on right now, january 2025.
If you have anything to add orany questions or maybe something
you feel like I didn't getquite right, please feel free to
text me.
There's a link in the shownotes that goes directly to me
and we can start a conversation.
I learn from you all.
(54:02):
I only know what I know, andone of the things I love doing
is finding people who know morethan me and just letting them
teach me.
It's truly one of my passionsto talk to people who are an
expert in their field and, yeah,I learned so much from you all.
So thank you everyone who I SOStexted Patrick Flaherty from
(54:23):
bagmascom, jen from AnesthesiaOneSource, sarah Whitfield from
AspiringCAAcom and ChabeliRodriguez from CAA Lifestyle
Speaking of which I am curating,in the show notes as well, some
links to social media poststhat offer just really quick
glimpses into salary, somepeople's personal journeys with
(54:47):
salary, some CAA contentcreators, so that you can have
access to the largerconversation.
If this is your first foray intotalking about money and CAAs,
okay, I think that wraps up thisconversation about how much
money do CAAs make in yourComplete Guide to Understanding
Certified AnesthesiologistAssistance.
(55:08):
So the good news is there isone more episode that I have
planned on the agenda for thisseries to completely understand
everything you need to knowabout a CAA, or everything I can
tell you in five episodes andI'm kind of at a crossroads.
There are two topics that Ireally want to speak on.
(55:29):
One intimidates me more thanthe other, and I feel like
that's probably a sign I shoulddo the one that's scarier for me
, but I have some opinions onthe two topics and I think I'm
going to go to my Instagram andlet you all decide.
So if you are not following meon Instagram, it's really the
only social media platform Ihave.
(55:51):
It's the only one I show up onsemi-regularly, and when this
episode launches, I am going topoll the audience to see what
you guys want as the fifth andfinal installment in this
complete guide to understandingcertified anesthesiologist
assistance.
So follow me on Instagram atawakenedanesthetist.
If you have any other questionsor want to contact me, I'm
(56:14):
available by email atawakenedanesthetist, at gmailcom
.
And let's see what else do Ilike to tell you at the end of
these episodes.
You can sign up for theAwakened Anesthetist newsletter
in the show notes, as well asreceive a free link to a
30-minute webinar how to startmeditation as a CAA.
(56:36):
Free for you for signing up.
So, yeah, that's all in theshow notes.
Go there and let's talk soon,y'all.
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