S1E12: Therapist Rachel Duthler on the Wilderness, Self Discovery, and Healing

My guest Rachel Duthler, a wilderness therapy and play expert, has learned to embrace the adventure beautifully. Through her transformative journey from the Midwest to the West Coast, she discovered the profound healing power of nature and incorporated it into her therapy practices. Rachel enthusiastically opens up about her exciting wilderness adventures, and how these experiences have been a significant part of her and many others' healing process.

Ever wondered how spiritual and social justice circles intersect? Or perhaps you've questioned how spiritual bypassing impacts our communities? Rachel takes us on a deep dive into these complex issues, challenging us to think about our understanding of masculinity, femininity, and personality traits. Our conversation gets even more intriguing as we explore Jungian archetypes, social programming, and the critical role they play in shaping our behavior. Get ready to reevaluate your perspectives as we navigate the intricate world of spiritual and social justice communities.

On this journey with Rachel, we don't shy away from challenging topics. From the exploration of Jordan Peterson's concept of understanding evil to be good, to the role of religious trauma in our lives, Rachel's insights are profound. We delve into the power of platonic connections between men, and how they can be a catalyst for healing and growth. We also touch on the transformative power of relationships and self-discovery, the importance of context in understanding archetypes, and Rachel's incredible journey with queer youth in their healing process. This episode is a treasure trove of wisdom that will challenge your thinking and encourage growth and self-awareness. Join us as we traverse this enlightening terrain with Rachel.

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Episode Transcript

Andrew Carroll (00:09):
Oh man, you know that it's a copyright for
YouTube.
It's so good, right?
It's great.
Yeah, it's fun.
We were just over here laughingbecause I had to move this
chair and as I was doing that, Iwas looking at Rachel and
telling her you know what we'regoing to have to tell this story
, because someday she's going tocome visit in the podcast

(00:29):
studio and there's going to be awhole team and she can get VIP
and there'll be water withcucumber in it and all this
stuff I'll take thatStrawberries, yo, whatever you
want, it's your day, it'll beyour day.
Yeah, absolutely Anything,anything.
So, hi, rachel, what's up?
Andrew?
I'm so happy to be here havingthis conversation with you today

(00:53):
.

Rachel Duthler (00:53):
Likewise, this is kind of wild.
Yeah, it's so much fun.

Andrew Carroll (00:56):
It's so cool man .
I didn't really prep the peopleabout how amazing you are.

Rachel Duthler (01:07):
Who are the people, by the way?
The people, yeah, who are thepeople?

Andrew Carroll (01:10):
They're the listeners, they're.
The entire world has access tothis podcast, so there's a lot
of people Nice to meet you.
You're beautiful.
Yo tell them again.

Rachel Duthler (01:22):
You're so beautiful.

Andrew Carroll (01:23):
Yes, go ahead and introduce yourself.

Rachel Duthler (01:28):
My name is Rachel Duttler.
I hail from the Midwest.
I've moved to the West Coast.
Sometimes I'm not sure if thatwas the right move.
I miss those friendly peopleover there and, what's to say,
I'm so grateful to all thepeople that have helped me.

(01:49):
And they're just all unfoldingtogether and learning together.

Andrew Carroll (01:56):
Absolutely, absolutely.
What's your next event that youhave coming up?

Rachel Duthler (02:05):
My next thing I'm leading.

Andrew Carroll (02:07):
Yeah, that sounds great.
Tell us about that, rachel.

Rachel Duthler (02:11):
Yes, Well, unfortunately no one on this
podcast is invited.

Andrew Carroll (02:16):
That's okay.

Rachel Duthler (02:18):
I'm just a news listening.
I am leading a rite of passagewilderness trip with adolescents
queer adolescents at anorganization called Rite of
Passage Journeys and I've donetrips with them for I don't know
.
I think like on since likemaybe 2015 or 16, I took some

(02:39):
break and then came back, didsome more work with them, but
it's so hard to get away fromthem because it's so special.
Every time I think every year Ican't do it, I'm too busy.
And then every year I come back.
But yeah, we do these trips.
That's not all young people orit's not all teenagers,

(03:00):
sometimes it's really youngeight to 10, and sometimes it's
adults.
But the idea is it's a rite ofpassage experience where you're
going through some sort oftransition and you're helping
folks transition.
And on this trip, people willbe doing a 24 hour solo in the
woods, supported by us, andwe're helping them come up with

(03:20):
an intention statement and tointegrate that after they finish
, and doing that in community.

Andrew Carroll (03:27):
Yeah, that is so cool.
That is so cool.
Nature is just.
It's such a beautiful teacherand it's so healing.
And that is another part inassociation with the play, like
you mentioned, that you do yoursessions in the park with people
and then you do, you're doingwilderness.

(03:49):
Oh, my goodness, like first aidcertification, right.

Rachel Duthler (03:55):
I have my wilderness first responder.

Andrew Carroll (03:57):
First responder right, thank you.
And then you're doing this riteof passage and that's so cool,
it's so absolutely.

Rachel Duthler (04:07):
I chose it because I like it's true, I do
like it.
Yeah.
Yeah, I feel really gratefulthat I get to do this work and
that I, yeah, when I was mydad's a therapist and when I was
young, I was like I will neverbe a therapist because I will
have to be in an office all day.
Boo, and it's true, I am not inan office, but I am a therapist

(04:32):
.
Yeah, when I was in grad school, I encountered like research
studies about wilderness therapyand I also happened to live
with people who were farmers andI got so very sucked into their
lives in this beautiful way.
I was like, oh my God, organicfarming is where it's at.
It's so sexy.

(04:56):
And then I did become a farmerfor a while and like used my
degree in this way.
That was kind of more communitybased work in farms and gardens,
but my favorite thing wasworking across a row of
vegetables from someone andhearing about their life.
And then I started doing thisright of passage work and I was
like, wow, this is incrediblypowerful and there's something

(05:21):
really special to me abouthaving, I mean, I just really
valued depth of conversation.
Getting to know people'svulnerabilities, vulnerability
and intimacy is really importantto me and so, yeah, I decided
to pursue the clinical world andwanted to find a way to combine
nature and therapy stuff,because I have found my best

(05:44):
healing in nature and it's someaningful and important to me
and I think that you know we'reso caught off from it in the
modern world and it feels to melike it's a huge part of both
being caught off from nature andcommunity, and like a village
is such a huge part of why wesuffer, have such significant

(06:04):
suffering, especially withmental health, and so I feel
like it's such an honor to beable to do the work with people
and see growth and change, andalso for me to be able to be
outside and, like you know, Ihave these sessions where I just
lay down with people and welook up at the trees and we're

(06:24):
chatting and crying and I'm likethis is pretty damn cool.

Andrew Carroll (06:28):
Yeah.

Rachel Duthler (06:30):
Or where you know we're walking and sticking
our feet in the river togetheror like it's just, like it's
beautiful, and it takessomething that's like you know
how I joked about like I don'tlike the DSM.
Well, it's true I don't, but ittakes something that feels like
really like pathologizing andclinical and takes, makes it

(06:55):
human again to me and makes itlike that animal play that I was
talking about, where it's likeno, this isn't just, this is
personal.
It takes something that felt,feels kind of dehumanizing and
makes it more personal to meagain being able to be outside.

Andrew Carroll (07:09):
Yeah, that's so.
That's so beautiful because Ihad never heard of another
therapist that does like theirappointments and their sessions
outside in the park and they'reout there now.

Rachel Duthler (07:20):
They're growing.

Andrew Carroll (07:20):
Yeah, and you're on the leading edge of that.
You know there's maybe oneother that I knew.

Rachel Duthler (07:27):
Nice.

Andrew Carroll (07:29):
But by the time that I had met her she was kind
of doing some different kind ofwork.
That was really impactful forme too.

Rachel Duthler (07:37):
I know.

Andrew Carroll (07:38):
She had a.
She had a very significantfocus on get yourself outside as
often as possible.
Nice, yeah, yeah.
But back to this wildernessexperience, right, cause that's
kind of what we took a littlesegue there.
How impactful is this for thesekids, for these, for these

(07:59):
young adults?
Cause I think you said on thistrip you've got an age range of
like 13 to 18.
So this has got to be just soincredibly transformative,
because I know that you don'tlend your time to anything that
you don't believe in, like Icould feel that and pick that up
and understood that with youfrom you, like almost

(08:21):
immediately, and that's such abeautiful trait.
You know who you are and you'reconstantly exploring that to
get even more clear.
And these kids, if any of usknow who we are.

Rachel Duthler (08:32):
Yeah.
I don't know.

Andrew Carroll (08:34):
I'm not sure about that yet, but thank you
for that yeah, but the kids yeah, they're getting to spend time
around you yeah To believe inthis work.
Yeah, and for queer youth, Idon't know that there's
necessarily a lot of people thatprovide them that kind of
container to just fully expresssafely.

Rachel Duthler (08:56):
Yeah.

Andrew Carroll (08:57):
And you're providing that.

Rachel Duthler (08:59):
Yeah, I mean, yes, I mean I think for queer
youth in particular, there is alack of connection to mentors,
ancestors, um, but I will say,like most of the time when I
meet queer youth, I'm like, ohmy God, you are crushing it and
you know so much more than I did.
So like I find myself in a pupilposition, but like I still feel

(09:26):
really lucky to be facilitatingsomething where they can take
whatever their truth is and likeput it into, like, live into
their reality of who they wantto become and foster that for
them, even if they're teachingme along the way.
And so it does feel reallypowerful and, um, and it's not

(09:47):
like the organization right ofpassage journeys doesn't just do
this for queer youth, it is foryouth.
They have all sorts of trips,um, and, and I think in general,
I mean the organization startedbecause there are not very many
Western like things in the U Sthat are dedicated to right of

(10:08):
passage experiences or to comingof age or to the, you know,
marking with ceremony, um,meaningfully, things and that
are important in people's lives.
And that's not entirely true,like I think that's particularly
true for white people, and sothe people who did start this
organization were primarilywhite and, um, like you know,

(10:32):
the organization has likeshifted over time and I just
want to acknowledge that thereare a lot of different
communities that are, you know,from different communities of
color, who are doing differentright of passage work or ritual
work that, uh, may not be seenand it does exist.

Andrew Carroll (10:52):
Absolutely.
Um.
Just in the same vein, sharewith us the impact that you see
of the right of passage work,because it's it's incredibly
important and it can oftencatalyze the transition from one
stage of life into the next.
That's kind of its entirepurpose.
Um, throughout history, that'swhat it's been about, is you?

(11:16):
Know, from childhood to nowyou're a man, now you're a woman
, now you're you know, now you,you provide you know, you create
value for the village.
You don't get to be a kidanymore.

Rachel Duthler (11:30):
The context for right of passage with journeys
is not just coming of agealthough that can be a part of
it it's also just transitional.
So sometimes people will cometo journeys to do a right of
passage experience becausethey're going through something
in their life.
So it might be like, okay,someone who's about to have a
baby, someone who's goingthrough divorce, someone who

(11:50):
never, you know, got to be seenas an adult, someone who,
anything that people need tomark something and they're just
like, isn't the community or thelike structure to mark.
So I would say it is more thanthe kind of um, all right, we're

(12:11):
, we're, you're enteringadulthood.
Now, though, um, that issometimes a part of it for most,
but I would say probably a lotof the people that are, a lot of
the youth that participate,feel that way.
Um, and and like I don't knowif it will be that way with
queer, with the queer youth, Ifeel like it might be more

(12:31):
initiated into like I'm fully inmy queerness and I'm claiming
this.
Who knows?
Like everyone's transition andwhat they're trying to claim is
different, um, but the impactit's.
I actually, for the past twoyears I've been working with
eight to 10 year olds, and thenbefore that it was like adults
and teens, and so if I'm lookingat the eight to 10 year olds,

(12:56):
um, yeah, I feel like part oflike.
The impact is just like havingthe space to share in an open
and vulnerable way amongst peersand feeling safe enough to do
that, and also the opportunityto work through conflict
together, and that does happenlike a decent amount, and the

(13:21):
opportunity to like work throughand to like take risks or to
approach challenges, and thenusing those things and including
like the solo, for example, asa way to say like I did that and
so like having a new source ofinternal confidence of like.
Okay, it may not mean that, oh,suddenly I'm a different person,

(13:44):
but it might more mean like, oh, I'm forgetting who I am.
I'm feeling really down and thisis a ceremony, is something
that can mark a time to go backto, when you knew something
really important about yourselfand you did something very brave
, and so it feels to me like andthis is actually from my

(14:05):
personal experience, which islike it's an anchor to return to
when you get lost, where it'slike, oh, like I knew some
things then and, of course, likeI've been changing and growing
since then.
But I know that I can dosomething hard and I know that
you know I have community thatwas there to love and support me
and just like almost like thesomatic feeling and the internal

(14:29):
feeling associated withwhatever transition that you
were trying to make is superpowerful to like.
Have this body felt experienceof like of I don't know exactly
what it is like, not exactlylike I've reached a goal, but
more of like I feel I believe inmyself, kind of in a way, and

(14:53):
like I'm adequate and I'm worthy, something like that.

Andrew Carroll (14:56):
I'm hearing empowerment.

Rachel Duthler (14:57):
Yeah, yeah, that's good, yes, yes, yeah,
it's a good summary right there.

Andrew Carroll (15:04):
That's, oddly enough, something that I feel
like is kind of missing quiteoften in our modern age.
There's so much disempowermentbuilt into the system, the
oppressive system, and just theprofitability of dissociative

(15:26):
coping strategies is phenomenal.

Rachel Duthler (15:31):
It is large.

Andrew Carroll (15:32):
Yes, yeah, yeah.

Rachel Duthler (15:35):
It is large.

Andrew Carroll (15:38):
So you said you're working mostly with eight
to 10 year olds, but that's Ijust want to make it clear
because you know you know thatpeople are going to want to meet
with you.

Rachel Duthler (15:48):
Yeah, I worked with eight to 10 year olds to do
right of passage trips.
Like, but that my primary workas a therapist is all adults.
And then right now, with thisnew right of passage trip, I'm
doing teens.
And then in the past I've doneteens and adult work.
Yeah, but like, my primary workis actually with adults.

Andrew Carroll (16:10):
All right.
So I'm like and EMDR andspecifically like trauma, trauma
informed therapy.
Right Is that?
Is that the proper phrasing?

Rachel Duthler (16:23):
You can use whatever phrasing.
I feel like trauma informed iskind of just thrown around, like
I don't even know what thatmeans.
To be honest, I'm like, yes,I'm trauma informed, I guess
because I've taken a bunch oftrainings.
But like people use that phraselike trauma informed means a, b
, c, d, I don't know exactly.
I'm like yeah, Okay.

Andrew Carroll (16:43):
Do you feel like people are using it as a way to
signal like we're not trying totrigger you?
Hmm.

Rachel Duthler (16:52):
I think people, I think some people are using it
genuinely as, like a, we careabout harm and preventing more
harm from happening, and I thinksome people use it in a way to
signal that they're with it.

Andrew Carroll (17:09):
Yeah, and that's a.
I mean that's all right.
There's a lot of signaling thathas to go on.
It's gotten very noisy.
It really has got.

Rachel Duthler (17:22):
But it matters, I'm so.
It does matter, like like youknow when, yeah, I, I feel like
I would more gravitate towards,um, like when people are talking
about if you somebody's hostinga workshop and they say like
okay, we're going to keep peoplesafe in this way, in this way,
versus someone who's like traumainformed, like what does that

(17:44):
mean?
But I do think it reallymatters that people are focusing
on that and paying attention tothat, because there are some
people who don't at all andoften, like more trauma happens
because people are not payingattention.

Andrew Carroll (17:57):
Yeah, that makes , that makes sense, makes sense.

Rachel Duthler (18:02):
Yeah, yeah.
Let's go back to talking aboutplay.

Andrew Carroll (18:06):
Let's go back to talking about play.
Let's do it.

Rachel Duthler (18:08):
Tell me, tell me I don't know what.
I'm going to say what's comingup for you.

Andrew Carroll (18:11):
I don't know, I have.
I have a question for you.
Um, I'm pretty new to theconscious community.
In some ways Like I've been alittle solo explorer, um, for a
really long time trying to do mywork alone, not in a community

(18:33):
without tribe, and now I havethis really beautiful conscious
community around me out here inSeattle um, in large part Thanks
to you.
Like I said, introduce me toecstatic dance and, um, I have a
concern a little bit that inthese communities, there's so

(18:58):
much focus on not ever rufflingfeathers or saying the wrong
thing or being like so carefulabout not even unintentionally
hurting someone's feelings or ortriggering someone that it
almost ends up putting you inthis box of, uh, of paralyzation

(19:19):
, like I don't know how to moveor where to move or what to say,
because I don't want to hurtsomebody else's feelings.
And my concern with that.
I understand that it's comingfrom, uh, 99% of the time, a
good heart, a good, a good space, right, but the world does not
like that and I worry that we'repracticing a methodology that

(19:54):
could possibly set people up fora failure, and so I like to
practice being aggressive.
Um, I also love to practicemoving seamlessly between my
masculine and feminine energyand like all of that stuff.
But I think there's, um,there's so much focus on the

(20:15):
softness and the gentleness thatwe can lose that kind of
connection to the animal in someways.
What comes up for you when Ishare that?

Rachel Duthler (20:27):
I mean, there's so many threads on what you just
shared.
I feel like this is probably avery long conversation, but um
perfect.
Um, I think probably we'll havealignment in some ways and not
in others, as my guess.
But like um, I mean the firstthing that I was thinking about.
Well, actually the first thingI was thinking about was, um,

(20:52):
I'm having some feelings aboutum, just kind of new age
spiritual communities.
Like I love ecstatic dance.

Andrew Carroll (21:01):
Yes.

Rachel Duthler (21:02):
Ecstatic dance is another language for me,
another way to connect withpeople, and I really feel that
way where I'm like wow, and I'mdancing with someone.
I mean, ecstatic dance is notalways dancing with people, I
also enjoy by myself, but butthis there's.
There is a very special thingabout um just speaking with our

(21:24):
bodies.
That happens for me when I'mdoing ecstatic dance, so I love
it and I think that sometimes,um in these communities, I have
been feeling like there's umjust like spiritual bypassing,
which I think is maybe a littledifferent than what you're
talking about.
And then I want to come back towhat you're talking about, um,

(21:47):
but yeah, when I say spiritualbypassing, it's like you know,
all light and love, everythingis good, like, um, and sometimes
I I'm feeling like I want thedeep authenticity and I want the
like, the nitty, gritty, darksharing of like what is really
going on for you, becausesometimes I feel like I can't

(22:10):
feel people, um, when they'rejust sharing positive things and
and you know, I'm sure thereare people who are truly just
feeling positive a lot of thetime and I feel like like the
human experience is so much morebroad than that, um and like,
so like maybe people are, youknow, using spirituality as a

(22:33):
way to bypass negative feelings,um, and or negative
conversations, or challengingconversations that need to be
had, um, and so that issomething that's been sitting
with me of like, something likeI have a lot of really beautiful
relationships with individuals,and then there's something

(22:55):
about a collective experiencethat in like that kind of
community that I'm feeling likeit doesn't feel quite right, and
I will say I'm very sensitivebecause I grew up in a very
Christian environment, you know,and um, which I'm not a
Christian now, as you know, andand I think, like it's, I'm very

(23:19):
sensitive now to be able toperceive, or maybe over perceive
, um, when I feel like aspiritual community is not, um
holding the breadth ofexperience or being accountable,
um to reality and to whateverpain is existing, um, so there's

(23:43):
that.
That's kind of what first cameup in my mind, and then you're,
you know, talking about oneanother aspect of something
you're saying was like, oh, Idon't want to like step on
people's toes and to me and,interestingly, like I
experienced that too, but like Iexperienced that in social

(24:06):
justice circles, and particularin white social justice circles,
where I think one product oflike trying to like be good and
like and like get better, likebe better humans is like this

(24:29):
obsession with being good andand the product of that
sometimes feels like competition, of like okay, who's the best
good, and leaves very littleroom for mistake making, and
that is something that I havebeen doing my own work with is
like okay, how can I embrace mymistake making so I can be in

(24:50):
authentic connection with allpeople you know, including the
people who are pissing me offand including the people who,
like you know are from differentethnic backgrounds or races.
For me, and like I don't thinkthat me pretending I know
everything is going to get methere, it's like me being in my
full self and then you know,making the mistakes and then

(25:13):
being responsive and when people, if people, are willing to
share that you know I've made,I've hurt them and I don't mean
I'm like going around, likeharming people.
I'm very careful actually, butlike I think there is a problem.
I do think there's a problem in, like, social justice circles

(25:35):
and white community inparticular, with, yeah, like
trying to do things the rightway, which is also like a
problematic thinking anyways.
So there's that, and thenyou're to.
You had one other piece thatstuck out to me, which was about

(25:55):
the masculine and the feminineand about aggression and energy,
and I'm like, oh man, likethere's a lot there.
Yeah, I think I.
Well, first of all, I'm gettingdivorced from the words
masculine and feminine.
I have decided and that doesn'tmean I still mostly, ish,
identify as a woman, like I waslike somewhere just float

(26:18):
between women and women and nonbinary, and like I'm like, yeah,
I like, because I'm like Idon't view gender in this way,
where it's like, where men orwomen like I just don't, but I'm
like if I fall somewhere, it'stowards a woman, I guess, and
like, even with that, I.
The words masculine and feminineare so frustrating to me

(26:41):
because they're just rooted instereotype and they are it's
just like if you look at and andlike you know, and that is
particularly hurtful to mebecause I am choosing to
identify as a woman in the wordsthat are associated with the
feminine are things that aretypically less valued by society
.

(27:02):
And and like I'm just tired ofit and like I think that this is
absurd.
It's absolutely absurd to methat we're like categorizing
ourselves, our personalitytraits, into like two categories
where it's like, okay, are yougoing to be more assertive and
aggressive, or you're going tobe like, more receptive and
welcoming, and like we areobviously all those things and

(27:24):
like in different circumstances,different times, like you know,
one can come up more than theother and like and sometimes
where those things?
Because we've been socializedthat way.
It's just like absurd to methat we are trying to use these
two words to sum up, like a wayof being, of like I just am done

(27:48):
, I want more complexity, I justwant more complexity so in that
request for complexity, thenthe conversation could turn into
Jungian archetypes great.

Andrew Carroll (28:02):
I love that.

Rachel Duthler (28:02):
Okay, so, and I think, okay, I didn't respond to
one thing yet, okay.
I just want to bookmark it,which was about aggression and
so we come back to that no,let's do it, let's go.
I want to hear about Jungianarchetypes well, I was.

Andrew Carroll (28:15):
I only bring it up because I think to me and I
was just looking at them theother day, using AI to map all
the archetypes to sci-ficharacters yeah, yeah, yeah, I
specifically, I told it to mapthe union archetypes to Star

(28:41):
Wars and the first law trilogy,which involves Logan nine
fingers.
It's by Joe Abercrombie.
It's fantastic.
Shout out to the first law, butyou discover what I was so
disappointed because it tried sohere's this actually right.
What did the Oracle give us?
This is actually now it's awhole thing.

(29:02):
It tried to tell me that DarthVader was the queen archetype,
and when I told it, no, youcan't do that and here's why,
because I tried to put genderconstraints on it it was like no
yeah yeah.
So that's so funny that we'rehaving this conversation in this

(29:23):
time in now, because I was like, how are you like of all of the
archetypes that Darth Vader canbe?
I never would.
You could, I wouldn't you couldhave been like I'll give you a
million dollars if you get this.
I never would have guessedqueen weird ever, but it was
kind of right and I only bringthat up because I think we're we
have to understand like in anenvironment like this, on a

(29:43):
podcast that's going out to alltwo or three people who listen
to it, that's my kind of tens ofthousands of people.

Rachel Duthler (29:54):
If you get famous, like just take this when
, when, great, when you getfamous.

Andrew Carroll (29:58):
I don't want the I don't want the fame.
I just want to be able to sharepeople like you with the world,
because you're incredible andyou, you challenge me even in a
conversation like this.
I know I can share with youhere's how I see things and
you're gonna give me a mirror tolook at.
That is intelligent and wellthought out and your position,
you live it, that exploration.

Rachel Duthler (30:19):
I respect you with all of my heart you, yeah,
I appreciate enjoying, enjoyinghaving those kinds of
conversations too yeah.

Andrew Carroll (30:26):
So I say masculine and feminine energies,
right yeah, yeah, but that's um, I mean I know more, a more
broad, you know, topic to jumpinto union archetypes, and
you're absolutely right, we areanything anytime we need to be
really now there's socialprogramming involved.

(30:48):
That, tell you, taught me thisearlier today a signed male at
birth right, yeah see I canlearn that does that kind of
assigned at birth, like this ishow you act, this is how you act
.
You know, and I just it was inthat I think I was telling you
and I was in that like sensualexperience webinar last weekend

(31:11):
and we were doing this wholeexploration on like biases based
on what comes up for you.
When you see this whole like itwas like an hour of doing like
here's a series of pictures,write down what comes up and
doing that kind of work, andthere's just there's constantly,
even when you are doing yourinner work and you're working on
these things and you knowwhat's up for you or you have an

(31:32):
idea of what's coming up thatthere's still underlying factors
that are driving your behaviorsand so the practice in the work
is to get really familiar with.
Okay, I know that these are thekinds of things that trigger me,
so what are the precursors tothat?
And being able to kind of gatekeep in a way without pushing it
away, but integrating it at thesame time?

Rachel Duthler (31:53):
what are you gatekeeping?

Andrew Carroll (31:54):
oh man.

Rachel Duthler (31:56):
I don't mean you personally, but what do you
mean when you're saying you gatekeep?

Andrew Carroll (31:59):
something specifically in those situations
ecstatic dance.
We'll go back to that as anexample.
Right for a couple years agoyou never would have caught me
dancing with another guy like Ido ecstatic dance now and now I
will tell everybody that thesensual dances that I share with

(32:20):
other men at ecstatic dance areplatonic and there there's
nothing other than connectingand it is so beautiful and
healing to have that sharedspace with another man that I
can't even really put words toit.
And supposedly I'm a poet, butit it has helped heal so much

(32:43):
father stuff for me.
It has helped heal so muchrelating because it's a, it's
safe yeah it's safe.
So it's those kind of gatesright there, those kind of
preconceived, programmed in likemen don't touch and we lack
touch in an incredible way inour culture in.
America.
Even to come back to spiritualbypassing, like you're talking

(33:08):
about, right, all of thosethings, all of those things, I
think that it helps, with themasculine, feminine right in a
way, to just kind of describe toeveryone what we're talking
about.
That's where I was using thoseterms.
But the real meat of that is, Ithink, the union archetypes,

(33:33):
because I can be a queen if Iwant, I can be the mother, I can
be the fool king, whateverright yeah but that going
jumping right into that can havethe potential of pushing people
out of the conversation jumpingright into it telling other but

(33:56):
other people who haven't hadthe whole context or the entire
container, that yeah, I canembody the queen whenever I want
, I can embody the fool wheneverI want, and even with young, it
was still sort of a genderassigned, the animus and anima,
right, if I remember.
I actually don't know him thatwell okay, so I'm gonna stop

(34:17):
talking about it now because Ithink I've reached the end of my
education.
That's about as I was hopingyou might be able to carry us a
little further, but we arerelying on the DSM to prop us up
, so he's not even in there.
Yeah, I can't, because the wayyour face gets.
But that was another thing thatyou, you shared with me too,

(34:40):
because we were having someconversations about past
relationships and and the painand and things that had come up
with that, and I put some labelson some things and you, you
reflected back to me I don't,was it diagnosable?
Something that I don't, I don'tremember.
I was talking about narcissism,narcissistic abuse and stuff

(35:01):
like that and you.
You told me that you don't.
You didn't really like to labelhim because of that, and I'm
pointing at the DSM.

Rachel Duthler (35:09):
That is our reason.
Yeah, there's many otherreasons.

Andrew Carroll (35:12):
I'm not believing in late diagnoses and
labeling people, yeah, yeah andwe just share a little bit of
that, because when you, when youshare that with me, it's
actually changed kind of myentire mindset around it and I
have been working to not beputting labels on those kinds of
things.
It's just that's how thisperson is presenting themselves.

Rachel Duthler (35:29):
I feel yeah, I feel mixed.
I think that sometimes, like,if you are in an in an abusive
relationship, it can be reallyimportant to have that label of
like knowing that I was withsomeone who was a narcissist or
abuser because, like, whenyou're in an abusive like
dynamic and you're receivingabuse, sometimes, like what will

(35:51):
happen is like you will believeit's all your fault, and it
might be an important step torecognize and label that.
That said, in general, I findthat, as a trauma therapist, in
particular, labels do not matterfor healing people truly like

(36:14):
I'm, like I will.
I will give people a diagnosisif they want one.
I will give people diagnosis sothey can get re-insurance
reimbursement by their insurance, but I don't I don't create a
treatment plan any differentlybased on the diagnosis.
That's not true.
Okay, I can't say that'stotally true, but I really am
doing almost all my work basedon like, what are your

(36:35):
experiences?
What hurt you?
How is it impacting your mentalhealth state?
Now, which is all based ontrauma, and you don't have to
know someone's like patternedway of being to be able to like
do that healing work.
So there's that.
But I also think that, likediagnosis I personally find

(36:56):
stifling for healing in thesense that there's so much
baggage associated with them andso, like, it's like okay, if
you believe, like, if you havedecided like okay, I believe
that I am, you know, I am personwith borderline personality,
then you may look for evidencethat that's true about yourself

(37:19):
and you may continue to kind oflike, perceive yourself and the
world in that way and like,almost like, creating like, yeah
, just like more baggage andmore harm for yourself of like
oh yeah, because so many mentalhealth labels are stigmatized,

(37:42):
where it's like not just like ohyeah, I have borderline
personality disorder Like, ifyou can hold that without shame,
that's awesome.
And like you know, like we are Ihopefully we are working
towards that, but I think theworld that we live in doesn't
usually see that without shameand so I don't know, I just feel

(38:03):
like usually the giving someonea diagnosis just like creates
more shame to deal with inmental health therapy and then,
besides that, I don't know, itjust feels uncomfortable, like
for like, so like we weretalking more in the context of
like personal lives and givingsomeone or like telling, saying

(38:25):
that someone was this way orthat way, and personally for me
it feels difficult, and I don'tknow if this is the right thing
or not, because I never willknow someone else's life more
than they do.
Now, what are your thoughts?

Andrew Carroll (38:42):
I guess it really comes back to being in a
relationship that's unhealthyand doing my best to see all
sides of it.
I think you said you know whenyou're in that situation you're
really off balance and you'rereally uncertain about what's

(39:03):
even going on.
And I look back at therelationships that I was in and
I had.
I was so confused and that waspart of the strategy was to keep
me off balance all the time toconstantly be questioning myself
am I the problem?
What do I need to do better?
How can I fix this?

(39:24):
And then to find out also thatI was being discussed in that
person's therapy sessions, andmaybe I what do you trust?
right.
Like what do you trust?
Because I was always theproblem and she was always

(39:46):
perfect and it didn't matterwhat I did.
I was wrong.
So I was the narcissist and Iwas the abuser and I was the one
who had borderline personalitydisorder and I needed to make
amends and I needed to fixAndrew and I had to go to church
and all these things right hadbeen weaponized against me.

(40:10):
Basically, all of my gifts andtalents and skills had been
twisted and if I took any of thelight off of her or I didn't
focus all my energy onvalidating her, then I was wrong
and I would pay for it.
So I didn't even do anyresearch into narcissism or
borderline personality disorderuntil that relationship was like

(40:31):
crumbling.
And when I finally did, I waslike, oh, you screwed up telling
me about this stuff, becausenow I'm doing this research and
like checking off, I have no inmy journal still like I wrote
down the whole list of likebehaviors and I would go through
and I'd write down specificexamples of how that had

(40:53):
happened to me or how that hadshown up in the relationship.
And I wasn't perfect.
I tried to leave therelationship.
I allowed myself to get suckedback in at one point in time and
I was in a differentrelationship at that time and so
I wasn't at my best and, man, Itried to close the door and as

(41:20):
soon as I cracked it back open,my entire world.
I was healing like I was doingwell, my work was getting better
, my back hanging out with myfriends, like, and I cracked
that door open and it was justlike an entire tornado came into
my life and just destroyed it,and I let that happen.
I wanna make that very clear toeverybody who's listening.

(41:41):
Like I have to own 100% of allthat.
I have agency.
I could have walked away at anytime.
I could have said, no, I'mworth more.
I could have held my boundaries, but I didn't, and so that's
probably one of the biggestthings that I have taken out of
that experience is that I don'thold any animosity towards my ex
for anything that happened inthe relationship.

(42:03):
I am 100% responsible for me,and I wish her the best.
I truly do.
I loved her with all my heart.
I still do to this day.
I want the best for her, andwhat that looked like for me was
walking away, because what washappening in that relationship
wasn't good for either one of us.
I don't know if that's happened.

(42:25):
I will never find out.
I have zero contact and there'sno way for us to be reconnected.
And that's the healthy, lovingthing to do.

Rachel Duthler (42:35):
Yeah, I mean they're so painful.
Relationships are so painfulwhen they bring out the best and
the worst in us, when they'rereally powerful.

Andrew Carroll (42:43):
Yeah, there's so much to.
It's almost.
I mean, it's super important toreview past relationships, but
it's important not to dwell onthem and you definitely have to
take the lessons and carry themforward, for sure.

Rachel Duthler (42:59):
Yeah, I mean that's why I became obsessed
with trying to find solve it.
It was like a puzzle I neededto solve because I was like this
cannot happen again and I needto have I need safe, healthy
relationships.
And so then I did kind ofbecome obsessed with, like what
happened, why did it happen?
And at some point I just had tobe like I don't know.
Honestly, I don't know, andit's confusing and I can tell

(43:24):
you some things about it and Ido think that I have more like.
The things that I did learn arelike I'm not able to tolerate
when people tell me like Ishouldn't feel a certain way,
like now I know.
Now I know that when I'm likethis won't happen again to me,
because I know I get to feelhowever.

(43:46):
I feel yes absolutely.
Yeah.

Andrew Carroll (43:51):
Yeah, that's so important.
I'm glad you brought that upbecause, especially when you're
open and available to holdingthat space for somebody else,
when that person who maybe tellsyou you don't get to feel that
way, when they come to you witha feeling and you're allowing
them to be in it, that there'sneeds to be a reciprocity, yeah,

(44:17):
and balance and support.
Relationships can be tough, butthey provide us a sandbox to
explore and play and to discoverso much more about ourselves,
and whoever you're playing inthat sand with is a gift, and

(44:38):
that can be really hard.

Rachel Duthler (44:40):
But do gifts make you feel nauseous?

Andrew Carroll (44:44):
Hey, you self-selected into that.
Right, I did, I did and I stuckaround for unhealthy reasons.
But you're right, gifts don'tmake you feel nauseous.

Rachel Duthler (44:56):
I don't know I didn't get a lot of gifts from
it, though I did.
I really did.
I got very intimate and deepcommunity.
I already have intimate anddeep community, but in a way
that I could rely on asattachment figures for myself
post that relationship where itwas like I was not okay and my
community and friends knew,because I reached out to them

(45:18):
and told them and shared what Ineeded and they showed up for me
and so I gained this hugesupport network in a way that I
feel so much more at ease in mybody and myself, and that was
priceless.
And then I did gain a lot andit was a gift.

Andrew Carroll (45:38):
I love that you just hit on that, because that's
so important that you feel somuch more at ease in your body
and with yourself.
One more time people I need youto hear this that she feels so
much more at ease in her bodyand with herself, and for a lot
of people, they don't understandthat feeling.

(45:58):
That's the message that I'mreally trying to spread.
That's so perfect.
That is so perfect, rachel.
You bring so much medicine tothe conversation, but that
ability to be one, connectedwith other people in a way that
allows you to feel so muchbetter in your body, so much

(46:23):
more in tune, connected, held incommunity.
To anybody listening, that isvery likely a huge piece of
what's missing in your life, andI think I can speak for both of
us when I say that you're notalone, that other people are

(46:47):
going through things too, andit's worth doing the work, it's
worth doing the hard things,it's really worth choosing
yourself and loving yourself toget to that place, because being
at ease in your body is one ofthe best gifts ever.

Rachel Duthler (47:05):
It is, it is yeah, and I will add that our
body's reactions of dissociationare important.
They are survival strategiesand they get us through things
that are unbearable.

Andrew Carroll (47:19):
Absolutely.

Rachel Duthler (47:20):
And so I say yes , our goal is to get in the body
and to titrate it at the paceat which your body can accept it
.

Andrew Carroll (47:28):
Yeah, that's so perfect.

Rachel Duthler (47:35):
Okay, I want to go back to something else,
unless you're like okay.
I have more to pre-explore.
Let's go.
Okay, I still was curious whenyou asked the question about
masculine and feminine and thenyou were like okay, I feel like
there's such an emphasis onsoftness.
I want also the aggression.
I wanted to hear more aboutwhat you meant.

Andrew Carroll (47:57):
Right.
So really all that means for meis just tapping into the animal
, the warrior, those kinds ofthings, those archetypes right
In the community, in thatcommunity.
So when, when we meet up likewe, we had like a park jam day

(48:18):
that one of the members of thecommunity put on and it was
amazing and a bunch of peopleshowed up and I what it was like
a movement jam.
So it wasn't specific to dance,it was all kinds of stuff.
There was acro yoga going onand that kind of thing, and I
wanted to play jiu-jitsu andcapoeira with with the homies,
and so we did that and there'sthat kind of physical

(48:40):
competition and that kind ofplay, wrestling, rough housing.
It's so important, it's so veryimportant and there's almost a
complete resistance.
Did you break it?
Can you hear that, yeah, yeah,we're sure.
Sorry, no, and I'm not aquality of sound engineer that's

(49:01):
going to be able to edit thatout.
So everyone just say you know,rachel is just anxiously.

Rachel Duthler (49:06):
Fucking her out of the microphone.
No, I'm not anxious, I justraised the microphone.
I am often anxious, but just.

Andrew Carroll (49:15):
No, she's not anxious at all, that was just
funny.
Probably I am yeah.

Rachel Duthler (49:20):
So you wanted to do capoeira.

Andrew Carroll (49:22):
Yeah, oh, that was you put some spice on that.
I love it, love it.
But even like at dance,there'll be times when we, oh
man, the kind of music that Ilisten to is like it's real
jungly, it's real primal, it'slike and I love metal, as you
know, we talked about that a lot.
I love metal, I love it, it'sso good, but not like a very

(49:45):
specific we're talking about,like animals as leaders and my
sugar and like these kinds of Idon't know them.
So that's okay If you know.
You know, I don't know, yeah,but I also, like I've been
listening to like the savageremixes of stuff and Aquanimous
and some other things that arethat really like they bring up,

(50:06):
like this ancestral, primal,like just feeling inside of me
and I want to just like pound mychest and smash the floor and
break windows and throw thisshit and you know, like I want
to just like piss on otherpeople's feet and let them know
this is my territory, like allthis stuff comes through and I I

(50:30):
do notice that when I let thatenergy come out, other people
will start to join me and thisfocus on softness kind of starts
to melt away and for me, it'sthis balance of like.

Rachel Duthler (50:43):
I know you don't like Jordan Peterson, but I'm
doing it, I'm about to justleave right now.
He's evil.
I mean, I am serious.
He is perpetuating very evilideologies that are going to be
problems.
They are already problem.
Okay, let's hear what you haveto say.

Andrew Carroll (51:05):
Yeah, I was just talking about the balances, all
I'm getting at.

Rachel Duthler (51:08):
But what does that have to do with Jordan
Peterson?

Andrew Carroll (51:10):
Because the first time that I heard one of
like, I watched him his videosfor a while and it's funny
because the person thatrecommended him to me is she.
She is a she, I think I toldyou the whole story.

Rachel Duthler (51:22):
Well, I mean you say other people don't know.

Andrew Carroll (51:24):
Yeah, other people don't know.
So she was very highly educatedpsychology, world, religion.
She'd been a yogi for very,very over 20 years.
Just an incredible human being.

Rachel Duthler (51:35):
You can just see me, If you can see rolling her
eyes.

Andrew Carroll (51:38):
Not rolling free .
Roll free, roll, yeah.
But if it hadn't been for herrecommending it, I never would
have gone and listened to any ofhis stuff.
Right?
But he proposed the idea thatto be good without knowing how
to be evil, it means nothing,and that was a really
interesting concept for methough.

(51:58):
Okay For me in my livedexperience, right, I grew up
very strictly Lutheran you are.
Shame was the name of the game.
Yeah, yeah.

Rachel Duthler (52:11):
So um we should do a podcast about religious
trauma.

Andrew Carroll (52:15):
I am totally down.
So that'll be our next episode.
Together is an entire episodeon religious trauma.
Yeah, that does sound fun.
Actually, it sounds super fun.
So, jordan Peterson yeah, sothe idea and maybe it's not his,
I don't know.
I didn't do any other researchoutside of that but it just hit
me in my heart of like, if I'mconstantly pushing away my

(52:35):
shadow and I don't know how tobe evil, if I am choosing peace
without the knowledge of how tobring aggression and war, then
what is that?
I'm being passive and I'm noteven really like living a fully
expressed life.
So, to tap into all of thatenergy and I've shared with you

(52:57):
the other kind of work that I'vedone, but I haven't really
talked about it too much on thispodcast, I'm not going to get
into it now but that work alsohelps me understand that by
pushing away parts of myself, Iwas killing myself and causing a
really unhealthy expressioninto the world.
So that's what I'm talkingabout when I say, when I'm at

(53:17):
dance or I'm in these places andI feel this aggressive energy
come up, that it's a safe placeto express it, because people
can play with me or not, andI've found people in our
community that will playaggressively with me.
There's people that will getinto a little bit of wrestling

(53:38):
or a little bit of the capoeiraor a little bit of like slapping
around or just being reallyanimalistic in that, and it's so
, it's so good.
And then when that passes andI've gotten that out, then I can
go right back into flow andjust being soft and gentle and
sensual and just like, oh sosexy.
But it all, it all needs to comeout, and people have come and

(54:02):
talked to me and said thanks fordoing that.
Even at the Porongi concert Ilet some animal out and people
came to me afterwards.
It was such a beautifulexperience.
But to just be told in anenvironment like that, where
there's so much healing going on, that me, just being a crazy
animal, gave someone elsepermission to do that and get
some stuff out and work throughsome things, it was so beautiful

(54:24):
.
So that's what all I wastalking about.
Like I'm not trying to go poundon anybody or anything like
that.
I don't I don't know.

Rachel Duthler (54:31):
I just wanted to .
I wanted to hear more because Iwas like I know I'm going to
have thoughts and responses, butI need to know what you're
saying before.
Yeah.

Andrew Carroll (54:42):
Yeah, tell me, tell me, tell me.

Rachel Duthler (54:47):
Anytime you start with Jordan Peterson and
just just die.

Andrew Carroll (54:53):
I only named out him for this conversation to
happen right now, so you canhave this space.

Rachel Duthler (54:58):
Sorry everyone, but I do not promote Jordan
Peterson.

Andrew Carroll (55:04):
I don't even know that the fan base of the
ashale day podcast probablydoesn't support him either.
Great yeah.

Rachel Duthler (55:11):
Okay, um, yeah, I think let me see where to
start to go.
Um the idea of, like there's somany things, um the way that

(55:33):
you're talking about playing atdance, like to me is play.
It is play and it's notnecessarily.
I don't know, maybe you couldcall it aggressive play, but
like I know what you're talkingabout and like I mean I know
what you're talking about in thesense of I, I like to do that
sometimes where it's likethere's this push, pull energy,

(55:54):
yeah.
And sometimes the push up, pullenergy is like light, and
sometimes it's big and being bigis fun.
Yes, it is.
You gotta get big sometimes andit's so fun, um and like we are
so contained all the time, allthe time.
And so it feels really good tonot be contained.
Um and like, I really identifywith that and how good that

(56:16):
feels.
Um and like, I imagine, likeyou know, dancing with someone
or like, or I'm like pushingsomeone across the floor and I'm
like that's good, that feelsgood, or, but then, like
sometimes I'm following assomeone does that or whatever.
It's like it's just fun andlike you get to do that in
Kupueta or in like whateverother martial arts like it is, I

(56:38):
get it.

Andrew Carroll (56:39):
Um, it is play.
I'm glad you put the.
I'm glad you said that yeah.
It's just, it's a game.
All of it's a game.
Yeah, yeah, and it's the bestgame.

Rachel Duthler (56:53):
Um and okay.
Then you brought this idea ofJordan Peterson's.
That's like if you don't knowhow to be aggressive, you don't
know how to be soft, orsomething like that.

Andrew Carroll (57:09):
Basically, it's if you don't know how to be
dangerous, you don't know how tobe peaceful.

Rachel Duthler (57:14):
I don't think I agree with that Like well,
there's a I do.
I do agree with the like weneed to unearth our shadows.
If we don't unearth our shadowsand we just pretend they're not
there, they're just going tocome out sideways 100%.
Please everyone, unearth yourshadows.

Andrew Carroll (57:33):
Absolutely.
Man shine a light into thedarkest parts and integrate it
all.

Rachel Duthler (57:37):
Yeah, integrate it all and like release the
shame, like yeah, say that againlouder for the people in the
back Release the shame.

Andrew Carroll (57:45):
Release the shame, yeah, oh it's so
important.

Rachel Duthler (57:49):
And then but I don't necessarily think that
equates to okay, say it again.

Andrew Carroll (57:56):
If you don't know how to be dangerous, you
don't know how to be peaceful,or even a little bit further.
If you don't know how to bedangerous, then being peaceful
means nothing.
Oof, I just see, and that's my.
I have the exact oppositereaction that you do to that
Like and I don't know if it'show, where I grew up and how I
grew up or what, but I was andmaybe it's walking down around

(58:19):
as a slightly above average sizelike mixed race black guy.
For me to be dangerous out inpublic raises a lot of issues.
It can like if I get, if I getloud and I start making a scene
in the wrong places, that couldhave life-ending consequences
for me.
Yeah.
Right, right.
So, and where I grew up, it wasall white people, all white

(58:43):
people.
So there was constantly justthis message for me to to not be
to make sure I wasn't dangerous, that I didn't come off as
dangerous.
Yeah.
And I had to figure out how to.
I mean, I didn't figure outuntil 35, 36 years old Like how

(59:03):
to you can't live, I couldn'tlive.
And so when I heard that fromhim, it hit me so deeply in my
core because I had boxed andI've done some combat sports and
played rugby and I know likeI've only been in two fights in
my life and unfortunately Ididn't get hurt and I could say

(59:26):
that I won those fights and Ilearned so much about myself in
those moments and one of themajor things that I learned is
that I do not like hurting otherpeople.
I hated it, I cried, cried likebald.
But to know that I can bedangerous and that I am choosing

(59:47):
to be peaceful is so much, itwas so transformative for me.
From my childhood and myupbringing was of that I did not
have the option.

Rachel Duthler (59:55):
Yeah, yeah, well , you got me, that really got me
.

Andrew Carroll (59:59):
No.

Rachel Duthler (01:00:02):
That was very compelling yeah.

Andrew Carroll (01:00:06):
So, maybe it's just that because he
conceptualized an idea for me,for, like, the first exposure of
it, of the first exposure tothat idea for me was through him
, is why and I know you hate it,I know you hate it.

Rachel Duthler (01:00:19):
I mean, I just am thinking about he's a white
professor in suburbia.
Like who has.
I'm just like it's not the sameyeah.

Andrew Carroll (01:00:32):
Fair.
But that's what it meant for me, right?
Like that's really what thecontext came down to in my
experience.

Rachel Duthler (01:00:40):
Yeah, I see that Like yeah, as a black man, of
like this experience, of likebeing having that identity
placed on you as dangerous, andlike the pain of that and where
the pain I imagine associatedwith that.

Andrew Carroll (01:00:58):
And make you imagine well.

Rachel Duthler (01:01:00):
And then like how you know, incorporating that
shadow would be reallyimportant and I can see that
yeah.
Yeah.
I have more to say.

Andrew Carroll (01:01:11):
Do it, send it, all of it.
Let's go.

Rachel Duthler (01:01:14):
So I also am thinking about this book,
another book, it's calledHumankind.

Andrew Carroll (01:01:20):
Oh yeah.

Rachel Duthler (01:01:21):
Did I talk about ?

Andrew Carroll (01:01:22):
this.
You've told me about thisseveral times and I saw on my
list.
Yeah, yeah, okay.

Rachel Duthler (01:01:28):
Tell us, tell us .

Andrew Carroll (01:01:29):
Who's the author ?

Rachel Duthler (01:01:32):
Rutger Brugman or something, something like
that.
He's Dutch, Rutger Brugman,Rutger Brugman, something like
that.
Okay, Humankind, but it'sessentially.
I started reading that book asa recommendation from a friend
because I grew up very Christianand in the Christianity I grew

(01:01:55):
up in, one of the taglines isthat humans are totally depraved
.
We are born sinners.
We're bad, we're evil.

Andrew Carroll (01:02:02):
Yeah, be ashamed of yourself.
Be ashamed of yourself, yes, beashamed of yourself and oh man,
I don't.

Rachel Duthler (01:02:09):
Go yeah.

Andrew Carroll (01:02:12):
So this is so something that's come up for me
in my work, and I think whatties into exactly what you're
about to go into, is there'sthree major levers of control in
our society of the individual,and I think their shame, guilt
and fear.
How does that hit for you?

Rachel Duthler (01:02:28):
Sure, I don't know.
I mean, like those feel right.
I don't know if there's justthree, maybe there's more.

Andrew Carroll (01:02:33):
Oh, there's definitely more, but I think
those are kind of the top three,that gift.

Rachel Duthler (01:02:37):
I feel like shame is the highest probably.

Andrew Carroll (01:02:39):
That's, I would agree.

Rachel Duthler (01:02:41):
Yeah, or fear shame and fear, yeah, yeah.

Andrew Carroll (01:02:46):
Yeah, but I find those to be very present in
what you're about to talk about,so I just wanted to bring all
that seasoning into that.

Rachel Duthler (01:02:56):
So I grew up with this belief system that
made me feel highly shamefulabout myself and, yeah, fear was
there too, because I thought Iwas going to go to hell if I did
things wrong.
But and I didn't have the rightbeliefs.
Anyways, because of that beliefsystem, I have been undoing the
belief that I'm bad for a longtime and like.

(01:03:18):
So much of my therapy is aboutthat Of like, not like, about
working through this belief ofI'm bad, which gets triggered in
different circumstances.
Anyways, a friend of mine,after hearing me talk about that
, was like I think you shouldread this book and it's called
Human Kind and the book is aboutkind of undoing our we've been

(01:03:43):
handed a perception of humanitythat human nature is bad through
psychology, through biology andthrough religion and probably
other places, through history orlike a historical analysis
which is often not accurate.
So essentially, he goes throughall of these different research

(01:04:03):
studies, historical accounts,anthropological accounts and
what's happening over there.

Andrew Carroll (01:04:13):
Don't mind me, I'm just trying to produce and
sound engineer and listen at thesame time.

Rachel Duthler (01:04:19):
So he goes through all these historical
accounts and like looks at theways in which, like historians,
scientists, religious figureshave painted the stories where
we're humans, like as humansbeing, like evil creatures, and
then goes through and debunksthe majority of them, like there

(01:04:40):
are things you can't avoid,like genocide.
It's a little problem, but he islike taking a look at it and is
thinking about humanity in theterms of like okay, what is
different about humans?
How did this happen?
How could this have happened?
And he's saying like ourdownfall is actually that we so

(01:05:02):
want to be connected to and havebelonging with the crowd, or
like the people around us thatwe will say like yes to things
when maybe they don't feel quiteright to us, in order to like
stay in the group and so likethat's what happens often with
genocide and other things thathumans do that are atrocious.

(01:05:22):
And anyways, I will get to thepoint eventually.
So he's looking at modern thingsand he's also going back and
looking at like accounts of war,accounts of murder and violence
that happened during and duringagriculture and pre-agriculture

(01:05:46):
, when humans were living like amore nomadically mostly
nomadically, or, like you know,we're hunting and gathering
instead of like doing a lot oflike, larger scale agriculture,
and what he at least has seen iswhat's reported is that

(01:06:07):
accounts of murder, of violence,of war all of it is less, way,
way less.
And so it's interesting to meto think about the word
aggression and about warrior inthat context, because it's like,
like when you're talking aboutit, it's almost like I hear you

(01:06:30):
implying like that's a part ofhuman nature too, and I'm like
is it or is that a part ofindustrialization and
agriculture and what we'vecreated?
In fact, it might not be a partof our animal selves as much as
we think.
And so, like, how do weseparate the sense of like

(01:06:52):
violence from this kind of likeaggressive player, big play, you
know, and be able to like,still feel this full self, part
of ourselves?
And I see why it's reallyimportant for you, as a black
man, to incorporate the idea ofbeing dangerous.
And it's okay because, like Ialso know from me, it was really

(01:07:14):
important to incorporate thesense of being bad and being
like, yeah, I'm bad, I stilllove myself Because, like, if I
allow, it was like actually,yeah, if I like, if I didn't
allow myself to do that, I thinkI would just be stuck with this
fear, this constant fear oflike I'm gonna be bad or I'm a

(01:07:39):
problem, instead of just I don'tknow.
It just changed something in me, so I can see why that is
really important to you.

Andrew Carroll (01:07:47):
Anyway, that's beautifully stated, that's
beautiful.
And just tapping on the warriorthing again, right, that's.
I think what you pointed out isabsolutely right.
I don't think that we weregoing around warring like crazy
when we were in the huntergather days.
You know, like warrior isreally important to me because I

(01:08:12):
was visited by that in a visionand I view that as more of a
protective role.
I don't see it as going out onthe war path like going and
trying to rape, kill, pillageand steal, not like that at all.
Not to me, the warrior isproviding, the warrior is

(01:08:33):
protecting.
The warrior is capable ofanything, of being out and alone
and surviving, of being a partof the value creation of the
village and the tribe.
So when I say warrior, that'smore of what I'm talking about,
is for me.
I can show you a picture andI'll pop it up in this feed when

(01:08:57):
I put this up, but he's reallytribal, you know, almost naked,
bare feet.
Who is this?
you it's a child.
No, no, it's a picture thatcame into my life in probably
around 2013, but it was 2022.
I had taken some mushrooms andwas doing my work.

(01:09:23):
I had my eye cover on and I wasgoing into the body and doing
all that big work that I do, andwhat it comes for me always is
this huge wave of fear.
First, it's just absolute terrorthat I always I have learned to
sit with and be present with,and in my space internally it's

(01:09:48):
always I have a spirit, fire,and it's kind of like jungle,
like all that's kind of my stuffwhen I'm in this place and I
was being stalked through thejungle and that's where the fear
was coming this time and I hadjust got tired of it.
So, I went, I sat by my fire andI had called it in.
I said come on like, come here,join me.
You were invited, I have aninvitation for you.

(01:10:09):
And just huge pitch, like allpure black, red eyes, 12-foot,
like spear, comes out of thejungle, sits down by my fire
with me and we're just there andwe're together.
And this sense of calm came overme and the only thing that was

(01:10:30):
spoken was for me to take off mymask and as soon as that
happened, this deck of cards, offaces got shuffled and I went,
dropped all the way down to myroot, and I saw this
disconnection of myself that Iwas like so you know, yeah,
disconnected, and as I'm in thisplace and I'm looking at this

(01:10:54):
thing, I'm like, wow, man, Ireally should put that back
together.
And then it hit me like, oh, Ican't actually like tangibly put
this back together right now,in this moment.
So I like reached out andgrabbed these pieces of myself
and I put them back together andI came back up to the fire in
that place and just felt.
It felt really, reallyimpactful.

(01:11:19):
And the way that these kinds ofthings can go sometimes was
that the guide in that momenttold me yeah, that's cool, man,
but I told you to take off yourmask.
And then I was like, oh, my eyebag.
So I took off my eye cover andwent out into the yard and
communed with the grass and thetrees.

Rachel Duthler (01:11:40):
But yeah, and that's part of why Warrior is so
important to me- so okay, I'mjust kind of getting clear of
like the Warrior was the giantfigure.

Andrew Carroll (01:11:52):
Yes, yeah, and it's always been there.
It's always been a part of me,a part of me that I turned away
from.

Rachel Duthler (01:11:58):
And like what did it mean to you?
Like to me in that moment likeit sounds like it was a
protector too.

Andrew Carroll (01:12:04):
Yeah, absolutely .
Who had been pushed away intoshadow.

Rachel Duthler (01:12:08):
And what in the past, like what was making you
push that figure away, thedanger?

Andrew Carroll (01:12:13):
just being open to that part of myself of the
potential, the ability to wageviolence and destruction.
And so I was doing all thosethings in past relationship too.
And even then, at that time Ican't sit here and pretend that
I'm enlightened right Like oldpatterns started to come up and

(01:12:36):
it was, I don't even wanna saywithout intention, but it was
also not intentional.
But I was waging war anddestruction and pain and hurt
and all these things on theshadow side because I had not
integrated that part of myself.
And it's a process.

(01:12:58):
I don't want people to hear anyof this and think like, oh well
, then you had that realizationand boom, like snap of the
fingers it was all fixed.
It's like no man, you get ateaching and then you gotta
start practicing and you have tostart digging in and you've
gotta start changing the thoughtpatterns.
And once you're aware of it andyou've been given that lesson,
then you've got even you've gotmore work to do.

(01:13:21):
And that's what the integrationis to me is the actual practice
and the repetitions of makingnew choices and building new
habits.

Rachel Duthler (01:13:31):
It's really interesting to hear you talk
about that because, likeimmediately when you're talking
about this character, this being, this protective figure, it
made me think about part's worklike in therapy, but
specifically about like I amoften trying to help people

(01:13:52):
create a part that will be likeI'm gonna show up for you no
matter what, or like get intouch with that part, because I
think we all actually have that,because we still exist and if
we're still here, we're stilltrying for ourselves.
That part is there and so likeit feels yeah, it feels like
really similar to this, likeactually like self-compassionate

(01:14:15):
part, where it's like I loveyou so much, then I'm gonna keep
trying for you no matter what.
And that includes I'll fight foryou.
And sometimes in the work thatI do, when I'm doing parts with
people, it's like, yeah, we'regonna allow that part to like
beat up your mom from childhoodor whatever, and like it's like

(01:14:37):
I like that part and that partis so important and I think we
need to divest that part fromgender and sex, because everyone
has that part.

Andrew Carroll (01:14:50):
Absolutely.
We're just divine beings havinga human experience.
Yeah, it's amazing.

Rachel Duthler (01:14:56):
And this human needs to go to sleep.

Andrew Carroll (01:15:00):
Yeah, this has been incredible.
I hope that you feel the same.
It's been so much fun.
So where can people find you?

Rachel Duthler (01:15:11):
You can find me on my website.
If that's just my therapywebsite, I don't have anything
else Shameless plug.
There.
I mean, I do not have anyopenings except for intensives
right now, but I do want tostart a poetry therapy group.
So if you're like I love poetrytherapy sounds great.
Please reach out and say I'dlove to join your poetry therapy

(01:15:33):
group.
That is yet to be created.
Okay, verdoercounsellingorg.
So it's V-E-R-D-U-R-Ecounselingorg, and
verdoercounsellingorg means likea vibrant green growth.

Andrew Carroll (01:15:47):
Oh, that's so beautiful.
That's so beautiful, rachel.

Rachel Duthler (01:15:52):
That's a fun, Andrew.
Thank you so much.
Thank you.

Andrew Carroll (01:15:55):
This was so great.
This was beautiful.

Rachel Duthler (01:15:58):
Yeah.

Andrew Carroll (01:15:59):
You're such a dear, beautiful friend and I
cherish you Likewise.

Rachel Duthler (01:16:02):
You're the best type person too, so I keep
getting hired, yeah.

Andrew Carroll (01:16:09):
Just sharing my gifts and creating value for the
community that I value so much,and that's including you big
time.

Rachel Duthler (01:16:17):
All right.

Andrew Carroll (01:16:18):
I love you so much.
Yeah, All right everyone.
Rachel has to go to bed.
This has been the Ashe All DayPodcast and hit Rachel up.
The poetry intensive andintensive and poetry therapy are
going to be built.

Rachel Duthler (01:16:33):
Yes, two separate things.

Andrew Carroll (01:16:34):
Two separate things.
Yes, two separate things.
All right, we'll talk to youlater, anything else, bye, bye.