July 4, 2023 • 32 mins
Ever felt torn between the allure of individual sovereignty and the comfort of communal connectedness? I'm taking you on a journey through the intricate dance of independence and interdependence, pulling back the curtain on these two defining aspects of human experience. We'll tackle everything from the philosophical premise of Indra's Net to the everyday implications of our choices and relationships. The magic lies in the balance, in the harmony of self-reliance and cooperation.
Through my personal narrative, I share how the tension between standing alone and forging connections can bloom into something beautiful: a community built on the bedrock of personal responsibility yet woven together by shared experiences. As I recount my own struggles with loneliness and the joy of liberation born from independent action, I unravel the essential truth that growth often sprouts from discomfort. This episode is a heart-to-heart talk about authenticity, balance, and the transformative power of interdependence.
But this isn't just a philosophical exploration. This is also a deeply personal account of my journey into the realm of psychedelic healing, a pathway that catapulted my growth and understanding of interdependence into new dimensions. As I share my experiences with plant medicine, integration therapy, spiritual practices, and mindfulness, I invite you to ponder on the profound power of healing and its potential role in your life. This isn't just an episode; it's an invitation to reflect, to question, and to awaken to the possibility of a life beautifully balanced between independence and interdependence.
References:
"My Life as an Indian" is the memoir of James Willard Schultz.
The Midnight Gospel: Annihilation of Joy (Netflix)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Happy, happy, happy 4th of July.
Happy Independence Day.
Are you safe, are you sound?
Are you out having anincredible time today?
I hope that in this moment,right now, you are in a place
(00:38):
where you can reflect on theabsolute blessings that are in
your life, that you've been ableto spend time with friends and
family and decompress from therat race, as it were.
(00:58):
Let's just go ahead and dropinto this beat for a second.
How about we do a rock on arock vlog?
(01:29):
It's the way that everybodygets up.
Get out, go play on the waterat the beach.
Everything is unique and youknow that it's time for me to
speak.
So let's drop in here, let'sget in touch, let's get in tune.
Let's just let's be presentwith one another.
Let's be present with oneanother.
Oh, my goodness, i love you.
(01:51):
Family Ah yes, amelia, i waslooking that word up today.
I was looking up family inLatin.
I was curious how to say it.
It was actually super simple.
It's just familiar me.
Familiar, it's my family.
But there's actually anaccusative case of the word
(02:13):
family.
I didn't know that was a thingearlier, even as a poet.
I don't have to know all therules and everything that
involved language.
I just have to know how topaint a beautiful picture But to
say I see the family it's, ican only say that.
I can only do this phonetically.
(02:34):
It's like video familium, butit looks like video familium And
that was kind of interesting.
But I digress.
Yeah, i do, and I appreciateyou coming to the Ashe All Day
Podcast and dropping in todayWhat we are going to be talking
about on this Independence Day alittle bit of America stuff a
(02:58):
little bit, but not too much.
But we're going to be talkingabout the difference between
independence and interdependence.
Yes, we're going to be talkingabout the difference between
independence and interdependenceAnd we might even get into some
codependence.
But we'll see about that.
How much time we have And it's4th of July for me.
I don't pre-plan for holidaysand stuff.
(03:21):
I like for the message thatcomes through on these podcasts
to be channeled in the moment.
What comes up, what feelsimportant, what is source
guiding us to talk about, whatmedicine is here today, and
independence and interdependencecame up in a really big way.
I think we probably don't needto touch on codependence too
much, because it's somethingthat's talked about a ton, along
(03:44):
with things like narcissism andborderline personality disorder
and all kinds of other thingsthat are just diagnostic labels
that really kind of in some waysgive people an excuse or an out
for certain kinds of behavior.
So I don't want to participatein that Parse, perse, parse what
(04:08):
?
Okay, here we go, let's dowords together.
So I'm going to let you knowexactly the definition of these
words right now, in this moment.
Independence refers to theability of an individual or
entity to function, act or existon its own, without relying
(04:32):
heavily on others.
It emphasizes self-reliance,autonomy and the capacity to
make decisions and take actionsindependently.
Independence often implies asense of freedom and the ability
to be self-sustaining withoutrequiring significant support or
assistance from others.
(04:52):
Now, on the surface that soundsincredible.
On the surface, that soundslike everything that I desire in
life, everything that I want inlife That is kind of the jam is
to be free.
That is part of what Acheal-Day is about.
Is that independent freedom,stepping out of the system,
being self-sustaining,generating my own income, being
(05:14):
self-reliant?
Independence also lacks a bitof community right, sounds
pretty lone wolf, and so that'swhy I want to talk about
interdependence today as well.
Now, interdependence refers to astate of mutual reliance and
(05:38):
interconnectedness betweenindividuals or entities.
It recognizes that noindividual or entity can exist
in isolation and that they relyon one another for various
aspects of their lives.
Interdependence emphasizescollaboration, cooperation and
the recognition of theinterconnectedness and
(05:59):
interrelatedness of differentelements or entities.
It implies that individuals orentities are connected in a web
of relationships and that theiractions and well-being are
influenced by and have an impacton others.
Now, in my personal journey andexperience, i pursue,
(06:23):
especially recently, a state ofinterdependence with my
community, with my tribe.
I rely a lot on the concept ofIndra's Net to help me see the
reflection of myself and thecollective divinity in others,
(06:45):
and Indra's Net is this veryidea of interdependence.
I want a big shout out to theMidnight Gospel.
If you haven't checked that outon Netflix, it's an incredible
podcast.
But there is an episode man, icannot remember the name of it
off the top of my head.
(07:06):
But there's an episode it'sabout kind of escaping over and
over from prison and I believethey talk about Indra's Net
there.
But the idea of Indra's Net isthat we are all the
interconnected nodes on this netAnd each node is a sparkly
jewel, a sparkly diamond that isreflecting the same source of
(07:26):
light in our own unique way intoeach other node.
So you are interconnected toevery node on the net through
this reflection of the light,through the shared light and
through the strands.
So it's a really beautiful idea.
Now, independence andinterdependence both have their
(07:47):
costs and their benefits, right?
I don't see if.
Okay, so we can.
We should be clear about this,just like if we had a true free
market that would provideeconomic benefit if we were all
good actors.
The same is going to be saidabout if we were capable of
(08:08):
having true interdependence,then we would have a really
beautiful relationship in oursociety, societally right.
But there are not always youcannot have 100% good actors in
a system.
So we have to be aware ofinterdependence and codependency
(08:28):
.
When interdependence is healthy, it's a beautiful thing.
When interdependence isunhealthy, you're getting into
codependency and we want to stayaway from that and we want to
be very aware of that in all ofour interactions, in our lives,
in all of our relationships, andthat is not just in
relationships with other people.
Are you codependent on alcohol?
(08:49):
Are you codependent on drugs?
Are you codependent on the gymor some other aspect of your
life?
You've got to be really awareof these relationships and how
they show up in your life.
So independence is anincredibly important tool to be
able to be alone, to be withyourself, to be self-sustaining.
(09:15):
It's a beautiful thing to knowthat I am all I need.
I am everything that I need inthis life.
I am everything that I need tobe well and healthy and complete
, and I get to choose my joy.
I get to manifest my life.
I get to create.
I am a creator, you are acreator, and that's what this is
(09:36):
all about.
Healthy independence is not astate of loneliness.
Healthy independence is not astate of scarcity.
Healthy independence means thatI have created my life, the
beautiful life that I want, thatI want to live, and I am a
whole, fully expressedinauthenticity.
(09:57):
I know that I am anever-evolving being.
There is no, if I find myselfin an independent state of
stagnation and there is nogrowth happening.
That's a problem, that'sunhealthy, and so I like to Yes,
i like to believe that rightnow, in this moment, today, i
(10:18):
have a pretty clear idea of whoI am and what I'm about and my
values and those kinds of things.
I'm doing the work to be awareof that as it changes.
I have an open mind and I amopen and available to changing
these values and ideas thatdrive me.
That are my foundation When Iam presented with information
that is valuable, is actionable.
(10:42):
It can conflict And often Iprefer that I don't want to be
engaging in confirmation bias.
Now, if there's somethingthat's really deeply important
to me and I am doing research,let's say, like on psychedelic
therapy, which is coming in abig wave.
This is so important for oursociety.
It's such a beautiful tool.
I am 100% support ofpsychedelic therapy and that's
(11:05):
across the board.
Whatever that looks like,whether you're going to the
jungle to do ayahuasca or you'resitting with a therapist in a
container and they have providedyou with MDMA or psilocybin or
LSD or whatever the case may be.
That methodology, thosemodalities psychedelic, somatic
(11:26):
and reactional psychotherapy isso incredibly important, so
incredibly important.
So when I'm doing research onthose kinds of things, i am
looking for studies thatchallenge that And, in my own
personal experience, what I hadknow and I see in that community
, what does it look like tobecome?
well, i wrote a poem years ago.
(11:46):
I'll go find it for you guysand maybe I'll put it out again.
It's available on my SoundCloud.
I am Andrew Carroll onSoundCloud, but it starts out
with a reference to a person whowill remain anonymous, but the
beginning of it says that blankis emotionally well And the
(12:09):
first time anyone ever shared astatement like that with me, it
gave me permission to understandand feel that I had the
opportunity, that I had thepotential, that I had the birth
right to be emotionally well,which is not something I ever
thought was possible.
So doing that work kind ofrequires a bit of independence,
(12:32):
but it also requires a lot ofinterdependence and finding that
healthy balance, and that'swhat we're talking about today.
So healthy independence isbeing able to be with yourself
in a healthy way that'sproductive.
Right now I am in a buildingphase in life and so I am rather
independent.
I am alone.
(12:53):
Often.
I'm working a lot and itdoesn't feel like work.
It feels like play, which issomething that's important to me
.
On this podcast We're talkingabout play as a modality of
healing, play as a way ofcreating and manifesting the
life that you want.
And these, these meat machines,these avatars, these human
bodies that embrace our divine,are manifestation machines.
(13:16):
They're also meaning makingmachines.
We can get into that part later, but in that independence.
It is a time and a phase in mylife where I am building.
I am building because I'vestepped out of the system.
I am no longer in a codependentrelationship with a, with an
organization, like you knoworganizations that I've worked
(13:39):
with in the past We won't evenname names, but I had achieved a
pretty high level of success inmy previous roles, but I was
miserable and I was codependentand I thought that was all there
was.
That was all there was in life.
And no, that was not the case.
And I can choose joy and I canchoose pleasure and I can choose
(14:00):
that juicy, juicy goodness thatthat is available to all of us.
And it's scary And it's lonely,because what you'll find is
that, as you've created thislife of codependence really with
with close personalrelationships, professionally,
financially, with the system,all of these things when you
(14:24):
step out independently to becomethat full, fully realized
entrepreneur or to become thatfully realized artist or
whatever it is that you're doingAnd let me be clear, like being
an artist and an entrepreneurand go hand in hand, there's a I
think there's a commonmisconception that creating art
is not a business endeavor, butit absolutely is.
(14:46):
It's incredibly important tounderstand that and literally
creating, where you're creatingsomething from nothing.
I am right now, in this moment,creating this episode from
nothing.
Essentially, this didn't exist.
This doesn't exist without youguys, the listener, this doesn't
exist without the lifeexperiences that I've had, and
(15:06):
all these things are so, soimportant.
It's so important to tounderstand that.
So it can be.
It can seem lonely at thebeginning stages of these
independent journeys, but whatyou've got to remember is that
when you make these decisions,when you make these choices to
go out on your own, there arepeople that have been in your
(15:29):
life who are comfortable withyour stagnation, with the
version of you that they havegotten to know, with the game
piece that you've become intheir life story.
And when you disrupt that forsomeone else, you have to
understand that it's going tocause some friction, it's going
(15:52):
to be disruptive.
People may scatter like roaches, they may slowly drift away,
but what that does is it createsthe space in your life for
beautiful, beautiful growth, andin that you are leaning into
(16:12):
faith.
You are leaning into what theuniverse and Creator has in
store for you.
You are following the tug atyour heart and that is
undeniable.
And when you do that, you willbe rewarded because the space
that is created in this life foryou when you step out into that
independence, that space isbeing made for new relationships
(16:35):
, for new people, for newbusinesses, for new opportunity
for you to grow and flourish andreceive the abundance that is
your birthright.
I promise you know that, feelthat in your body, be present to
the gratitude, imagine, go backand listen to that mindful
(16:57):
meditation, that guidedmeditation episode that I did
about love and gratitude, and dothat practice every day And I
just give gratitude right now.
I'm so grateful that I get todo this podcast with you.
I am so beyond grateful.
It is.
I get the giggles every time Iset up and I pull the trigger
(17:20):
and we get rolling.
So, now that we've talked aboutthe independent state, what
about the interdependent state?
How can Andrew, how can you beindependent and interdependent
at the same time?
That doesn't make any sense.
Are they not competing ideas?
Well, sure, they are in a way,but let's go back.
Let's go back and we'll talkabout and you'll have to forgive
(17:41):
me, i forget the name of theauthor, and it's a.
It's a phenomenal book.
It's called My Life as anIndian And in that book.
What happens is there's a it'sit's way back and it's set in,
like Montana, in the Fort Bentonarea, if I remember correctly
(18:01):
is a white man who leaves whitesociety to go live with Native
Americans.
And please don't take offenseat the title There's not I'm not
saying a trigger warning oranything like that.
The book is written sorespectfully the reverence of
this, of this man for hisexperience and for the
opportunity to live as a NativeAmerican on the land for his for
(18:25):
life.
It's so beautifully capturedAnd what it shows and why I
bring this up is because it'ssuch a beautiful balance of
independence and interdependence.
And that's what I think of whenI'm thinking of interdependence
is what does it look like tolive in a tribal society?
What does it look like to havethat tribal community around you
(18:48):
where, yes, you're responsiblefor yourself, there are rites of
passage, you are learningskills that create value for the
entire community, but you'realso capable and you know that
you are of surviving alone,whether you happen to be on a
hunting party or it is a time ofwar or a time of peace or a
(19:09):
time of abundance or scarcity,that you are interdependently
connected to your community.
You are creating value, peopleare being cared for when someone
is at a low point and someoneelse is in abundance.
I guess you could kind of callit a bit of socialism.
But those are labels and stuffthat.
(19:31):
I'll be totally honest with you, i don't even pay that much
attention to them.
And people run around yellingsocialists, this and communism
and all those kinds of things,but I don't research that too
much.
I think if, again, if you're ina system where there's 100% good
actors, everything would beworking fine.
(19:52):
But there are not.
There are people acting out ofscarcity and it's unfortunate.
There's plenty for everybody,but they were taking care of
people, you know, people whodidn't have enough to get by at
a time.
The village would come together, the tribe would come together
and help them out.
They would make sure that theywere fed and clothed and cared
(20:13):
for, and elders are respectedfor the wisdom they bring to the
fire.
And children are protectedabove all else, because they are
the divine little beings whowill change the world.
They are the breath of thefuture.
So interdependence to me is apretty easy concept.
It is really just aboutcommunity and helping others,
(20:35):
cooperation, sharedresponsibility and collective
well-being.
And independence fostersindividuality, self-sufficiency
and personal growth.
Interdependent relationshipsalso foster personal growth Big
(20:55):
time, big time.
Listen to that again.
Interdependence also fosterspersonal growth in a huge way.
The reason being is thatrelationships are a playground
in which we get to do work thatwe cannot do by ourselves, and
so, whether that's romantic orplatonic, or business or any
kind of relationship, personalrelationships you want to be
(21:19):
really aware of that.
What comes up for you?
I was just having a conversationwith my coach last night during
our call, examiningrelationship and what does it
look like to love quickly, towalk around in love with
everyone, to see someone andjust love them.
(21:42):
What does that look like andwhat does that mean?
You know, really reframinglinguistically that people will
say I got my heart broken, like,yeah, you got your heart broken
open.
You got your heart broken open.
You have now had theopportunity to be just cracked
wide open, and it is anopportunity to make a decision
(22:05):
of like I will never experiencethat particular lesson again
because I don't need to.
That contract is fulfilled andthat, my friends, is a beautiful
, beautiful thing to be able toexperience.
So are you in a place where youare giving deep gratitude for
past relationships for pastexperiences.
(22:26):
All the hard things you've beenthrough are literally perfectly
suited for you specifically.
I couldn't go through your life.
I couldn't.
I couldn't go through your life.
I couldn't handle what you'vebeen through, and I'm perfectly
suited for the life that I'm inas well.
So what does that look like foryou?
(22:47):
Are you able to give genuinelove and gratitude for those
experiences?
Yes, i feel that whole body.
Yes, i just invite you.
(23:08):
I'm feeling this massive waveof just release and relief and
gratitude and I'm melting intoand out of myself into the
fabric that we share in thistapestry.
Oh, can you breathe in And justget curious.
(23:30):
Life is so juicy, it's sobeautiful and you have a choice.
You absolutely have a choice.
You have agency.
Are you fulfilled?
Does it feel like work or is itplay?
Have you made it a game?
Are you on that hustle, pornlifestyle of it's just grind,
(23:56):
grind, grind.
What do you worship?
Who do you worship?
Where does your money go?
What is distracting you fromyour purpose, from creating?
So, on this celebration ofindependence in America, i
(24:21):
really am inviting you, dearsweet, familiar, to consider
what does that actually mean tome?
America is not independent.
Let's get that right.
First and foremost, we live ina connected global economy and
(24:47):
the import, export industries,gdp, gross domestic product.
If America was independent, wewould fail.
We would fall apart.
We cannot take care ofourselves without others.
Without the support of othernation states and other
(25:12):
communities and collectives ofpeople across the globe, america
would fall apart.
So what if, instead of lookingat everything as competition, we
decided to view through thelens of interdependent
(25:34):
collaboration?
What could things look like ifwe ceased the scarcity mentality
and approach to globalizationand global engagement And we
began to view it through thelens of abundance?
What does life look like if weall took a little less and gave
(26:01):
a little bit more?
What does life look like if Ishowed you my whole heart in
every engagement, in everyinteraction, instead of the
walls or the armor, or thecalluses the spiritual and
(26:22):
emotional calluses that havebeen built up over a lifetime of
taking it personally, how canwe come together in community in
this moment, right now?
What can you do for yourselfthat will create value for the
(26:52):
collective?
For me, it's the continuation ofthe work.
It is using my voice to presentand offer ideas and invitations
to a new way of life, a new wayof being and really just
(27:14):
walking in love and light andtruth, truth and trust,
community, independent andinterdependent.
In all that I do, we have achoice, we truly have a choice,
(27:40):
and I hope that you're choosingthe joy and the pleasure and the
juiciness, because I knowfirsthand what it's like to live
a life alone while stillconnected in co-dependence.
I know what it's like to live alife ruled by dissociative
(28:02):
coping strategies of abusingalcohol, of running away from my
feelings through drugs andanything sex, pornography,
anything that could just numbthe pain while still allowing me
to feel something, just abusingmyself.
(28:23):
I've lived that life and I amwhole and complete and done with
those strategies and it feelsamazing and it's something even
a year or two ago I could nothave said to you.
I couldn't have said that toyou in authenticity And I've
(28:47):
mentioned before it's not, itwasn't overnight.
In a lot of ways it felt like it.
But then I took a step back andreally evaluated the path and I
have been doing work withcoaches and therapists and plant
medicine and and healthy drugs,mindfulness, meditation, yoga,
(29:13):
mobility flows, all kinds ofthings for years, for years.
In some ways I wasunintentional in it.
Some ways I didn't know what Iwas doing, but I kept doing, i
kept trying, i kept experiencing.
I continued to engage in thattaste, touch and smell of all
(29:34):
these things that, oh, thismight help me, oh, that might
help me.
And what came for me is thattalk therapy ends up being an
infinite black hole ofreinforcing negative, negative
stigmas for me, and that's notthe case for everybody.
(29:56):
I know some people who have hadgreat, great, great success
with talk therapy, but thatmodality in and of itself didn't
work for me.
When I found PSIP andpsychedelics, in conjunction
with integration therapy andspiritual practice and mindful
(30:16):
meditation, that changed thegame.
That changed the game.
And so, as I lean into mypurpose more and I continue to
share with you authentically,with this voice that is
independent and interdependentand truly free, i'll be sharing
with you more in depth about myjourney with psychedelic healing
(30:39):
, my experience in that realm,how impactful and beautiful it
has been for me, and the safetyfound therein.
So you are all so beautiful,you are all so absolutely
beautiful, and I am so gratefulthat you dropped in with me
(31:01):
today.
Happy Fourth of July.
I invite you to considercelebrating some interdependence
today.
What does that look like foryou.
How can you get down with yourtown, with your people, with
your vibe?
independent, interdependent,healthy and connected?
(31:22):
Oh man, i am your host, andrewCarroll.
I love and adore each and everysingle one of you.
Thanks for hanging out with me.
Now, get out there.
Get out there, go have some fun.
Take this love with you, mm,bathed in the sun.
Oh no, oh no, oh, all right, ilove you, family, take such good
(31:52):
care.
Happy, happy, happy 4th of July.
Happy Independence Day.
Are you safe, are you sound?
Are you out having anincredible time today?
I hope that in this moment,right now, you are in a place
(00:38):
where you can reflect on theabsolute blessings that are in
your life, that you've been ableto spend time with friends and
family and decompress from therat race, as it were.
(00:58):
Let's just go ahead and dropinto this beat for a second.
How about we do a rock on arock vlog?
(01:29):
It's the way that everybodygets up.
Get out, go play on the waterat the beach.
Everything is unique and youknow that it's time for me to
speak.
So let's drop in here, let'sget in touch, let's get in tune.
Let's just let's be presentwith one another.
Let's be present with oneanother.
Oh, my goodness, i love you.
(01:51):
Family Ah yes, amelia, i waslooking that word up today.
I was looking up family inLatin.
I was curious how to say it.
It was actually super simple.
It's just familiar me.
Familiar, it's my family.
But there's actually anaccusative case of the word
(02:13):
family.
I didn't know that was a thingearlier, even as a poet.
I don't have to know all therules and everything that
involved language.
I just have to know how topaint a beautiful picture But to
say I see the family it's, ican only say that.
I can only do this phonetically.
(02:34):
It's like video familium, butit looks like video familium And
that was kind of interesting.
But I digress.
Yeah, i do, and I appreciateyou coming to the Ashe All Day
Podcast and dropping in todayWhat we are going to be talking
about on this Independence Day alittle bit of America stuff a
(02:58):
little bit, but not too much.
But we're going to be talkingabout the difference between
independence and interdependence.
Yes, we're going to be talkingabout the difference between
independence and interdependenceAnd we might even get into some
codependence.
But we'll see about that.
How much time we have And it's4th of July for me.
I don't pre-plan for holidaysand stuff.
(03:21):
I like for the message thatcomes through on these podcasts
to be channeled in the moment.
What comes up, what feelsimportant, what is source
guiding us to talk about, whatmedicine is here today, and
independence and interdependencecame up in a really big way.
I think we probably don't needto touch on codependence too
much, because it's somethingthat's talked about a ton, along
(03:44):
with things like narcissism andborderline personality disorder
and all kinds of other thingsthat are just diagnostic labels
that really kind of in some waysgive people an excuse or an out
for certain kinds of behavior.
So I don't want to participatein that Parse, perse, parse what
(04:08):
?
Okay, here we go, let's dowords together.
So I'm going to let you knowexactly the definition of these
words right now, in this moment.
Independence refers to theability of an individual or
entity to function, act or existon its own, without relying
(04:32):
heavily on others.
It emphasizes self-reliance,autonomy and the capacity to
make decisions and take actionsindependently.
Independence often implies asense of freedom and the ability
to be self-sustaining withoutrequiring significant support or
assistance from others.
(04:52):
Now, on the surface that soundsincredible.
On the surface, that soundslike everything that I desire in
life, everything that I want inlife That is kind of the jam is
to be free.
That is part of what Acheal-Day is about.
Is that independent freedom,stepping out of the system,
being self-sustaining,generating my own income, being
(05:14):
self-reliant?
Independence also lacks a bitof community right, sounds
pretty lone wolf, and so that'swhy I want to talk about
interdependence today as well.
Now, interdependence refers to astate of mutual reliance and
(05:38):
interconnectedness betweenindividuals or entities.
It recognizes that noindividual or entity can exist
in isolation and that they relyon one another for various
aspects of their lives.
Interdependence emphasizescollaboration, cooperation and
the recognition of theinterconnectedness and
(05:59):
interrelatedness of differentelements or entities.
It implies that individuals orentities are connected in a web
of relationships and that theiractions and well-being are
influenced by and have an impacton others.
Now, in my personal journey andexperience, i pursue,
(06:23):
especially recently, a state ofinterdependence with my
community, with my tribe.
I rely a lot on the concept ofIndra's Net to help me see the
reflection of myself and thecollective divinity in others,
(06:45):
and Indra's Net is this veryidea of interdependence.
I want a big shout out to theMidnight Gospel.
If you haven't checked that outon Netflix, it's an incredible
podcast.
But there is an episode man, icannot remember the name of it
off the top of my head.
(07:06):
But there's an episode it'sabout kind of escaping over and
over from prison and I believethey talk about Indra's Net
there.
But the idea of Indra's Net isthat we are all the
interconnected nodes on this netAnd each node is a sparkly
jewel, a sparkly diamond that isreflecting the same source of
(07:26):
light in our own unique way intoeach other node.
So you are interconnected toevery node on the net through
this reflection of the light,through the shared light and
through the strands.
So it's a really beautiful idea.
Now, independence andinterdependence both have their
(07:47):
costs and their benefits, right?
I don't see if.
Okay, so we can.
We should be clear about this,just like if we had a true free
market that would provideeconomic benefit if we were all
good actors.
The same is going to be saidabout if we were capable of
(08:08):
having true interdependence,then we would have a really
beautiful relationship in oursociety, societally right.
But there are not always youcannot have 100% good actors in
a system.
So we have to be aware ofinterdependence and codependency
(08:28):
.
When interdependence is healthy, it's a beautiful thing.
When interdependence isunhealthy, you're getting into
codependency and we want to stayaway from that and we want to
be very aware of that in all ofour interactions, in our lives,
in all of our relationships, andthat is not just in
relationships with other people.
Are you codependent on alcohol?
(08:49):
Are you codependent on drugs?
Are you codependent on the gymor some other aspect of your
life?
You've got to be really awareof these relationships and how
they show up in your life.
So independence is anincredibly important tool to be
able to be alone, to be withyourself, to be self-sustaining.
(09:15):
It's a beautiful thing to knowthat I am all I need.
I am everything that I need inthis life.
I am everything that I need tobe well and healthy and complete
, and I get to choose my joy.
I get to manifest my life.
I get to create.
I am a creator, you are acreator, and that's what this is
(09:36):
all about.
Healthy independence is not astate of loneliness.
Healthy independence is not astate of scarcity.
Healthy independence means thatI have created my life, the
beautiful life that I want, thatI want to live, and I am a
whole, fully expressedinauthenticity.
(09:57):
I know that I am anever-evolving being.
There is no, if I find myselfin an independent state of
stagnation and there is nogrowth happening.
That's a problem, that'sunhealthy, and so I like to Yes,
i like to believe that rightnow, in this moment, today, i
(10:18):
have a pretty clear idea of whoI am and what I'm about and my
values and those kinds of things.
I'm doing the work to be awareof that as it changes.
I have an open mind and I amopen and available to changing
these values and ideas thatdrive me.
That are my foundation When Iam presented with information
that is valuable, is actionable.
(10:42):
It can conflict And often Iprefer that I don't want to be
engaging in confirmation bias.
Now, if there's somethingthat's really deeply important
to me and I am doing research,let's say, like on psychedelic
therapy, which is coming in abig wave.
This is so important for oursociety.
It's such a beautiful tool.
I am 100% support ofpsychedelic therapy and that's
(11:05):
across the board.
Whatever that looks like,whether you're going to the
jungle to do ayahuasca or you'resitting with a therapist in a
container and they have providedyou with MDMA or psilocybin or
LSD or whatever the case may be.
That methodology, thosemodalities psychedelic, somatic
(11:26):
and reactional psychotherapy isso incredibly important, so
incredibly important.
So when I'm doing research onthose kinds of things, i am
looking for studies thatchallenge that And, in my own
personal experience, what I hadknow and I see in that community
, what does it look like tobecome?
well, i wrote a poem years ago.
(11:46):
I'll go find it for you guysand maybe I'll put it out again.
It's available on my SoundCloud.
I am Andrew Carroll onSoundCloud, but it starts out
with a reference to a person whowill remain anonymous, but the
beginning of it says that blankis emotionally well And the
(12:09):
first time anyone ever shared astatement like that with me, it
gave me permission to understandand feel that I had the
opportunity, that I had thepotential, that I had the birth
right to be emotionally well,which is not something I ever
thought was possible.
So doing that work kind ofrequires a bit of independence,
(12:32):
but it also requires a lot ofinterdependence and finding that
healthy balance, and that'swhat we're talking about today.
So healthy independence isbeing able to be with yourself
in a healthy way that'sproductive.
Right now I am in a buildingphase in life and so I am rather
independent.
I am alone.
(12:53):
Often.
I'm working a lot and itdoesn't feel like work.
It feels like play, which issomething that's important to me
.
On this podcast We're talkingabout play as a modality of
healing, play as a way ofcreating and manifesting the
life that you want.
And these, these meat machines,these avatars, these human
bodies that embrace our divine,are manifestation machines.
(13:16):
They're also meaning makingmachines.
We can get into that part later, but in that independence.
It is a time and a phase in mylife where I am building.
I am building because I'vestepped out of the system.
I am no longer in a codependentrelationship with a, with an
organization, like you knoworganizations that I've worked
(13:39):
with in the past We won't evenname names, but I had achieved a
pretty high level of success inmy previous roles, but I was
miserable and I was codependentand I thought that was all there
was.
That was all there was in life.
And no, that was not the case.
And I can choose joy and I canchoose pleasure and I can choose
(14:00):
that juicy, juicy goodness thatthat is available to all of us.
And it's scary And it's lonely,because what you'll find is
that, as you've created thislife of codependence really with
with close personalrelationships, professionally,
financially, with the system,all of these things when you
(14:24):
step out independently to becomethat full, fully realized
entrepreneur or to become thatfully realized artist or
whatever it is that you're doingAnd let me be clear, like being
an artist and an entrepreneurand go hand in hand, there's a I
think there's a commonmisconception that creating art
is not a business endeavor, butit absolutely is.
(14:46):
It's incredibly important tounderstand that and literally
creating, where you're creatingsomething from nothing.
I am right now, in this moment,creating this episode from
nothing.
Essentially, this didn't exist.
This doesn't exist without youguys, the listener, this doesn't
exist without the lifeexperiences that I've had, and
(15:06):
all these things are so, soimportant.
It's so important to tounderstand that.
So it can be.
It can seem lonely at thebeginning stages of these
independent journeys, but whatyou've got to remember is that
when you make these decisions,when you make these choices to
go out on your own, there arepeople that have been in your
(15:29):
life who are comfortable withyour stagnation, with the
version of you that they havegotten to know, with the game
piece that you've become intheir life story.
And when you disrupt that forsomeone else, you have to
understand that it's going tocause some friction, it's going
(15:52):
to be disruptive.
People may scatter like roaches, they may slowly drift away,
but what that does is it createsthe space in your life for
beautiful, beautiful growth, andin that you are leaning into
(16:12):
faith.
You are leaning into what theuniverse and Creator has in
store for you.
You are following the tug atyour heart and that is
undeniable.
And when you do that, you willbe rewarded because the space
that is created in this life foryou when you step out into that
independence, that space isbeing made for new relationships
(16:35):
, for new people, for newbusinesses, for new opportunity
for you to grow and flourish andreceive the abundance that is
your birthright.
I promise you know that, feelthat in your body, be present to
the gratitude, imagine, go backand listen to that mindful
(16:57):
meditation, that guidedmeditation episode that I did
about love and gratitude, and dothat practice every day And I
just give gratitude right now.
I'm so grateful that I get todo this podcast with you.
I am so beyond grateful.
It is.
I get the giggles every time Iset up and I pull the trigger
(17:20):
and we get rolling.
So, now that we've talked aboutthe independent state, what
about the interdependent state?
How can Andrew, how can you beindependent and interdependent
at the same time?
That doesn't make any sense.
Are they not competing ideas?
Well, sure, they are in a way,but let's go back.
Let's go back and we'll talkabout and you'll have to forgive
(17:41):
me, i forget the name of theauthor, and it's a.
It's a phenomenal book.
It's called My Life as anIndian And in that book.
What happens is there's a it'sit's way back and it's set in,
like Montana, in the Fort Bentonarea, if I remember correctly
(18:01):
is a white man who leaves whitesociety to go live with Native
Americans.
And please don't take offenseat the title There's not I'm not
saying a trigger warning oranything like that.
The book is written sorespectfully the reverence of
this, of this man for hisexperience and for the
opportunity to live as a NativeAmerican on the land for his for
(18:25):
life.
It's so beautifully capturedAnd what it shows and why I
bring this up is because it'ssuch a beautiful balance of
independence and interdependence.
And that's what I think of whenI'm thinking of interdependence
is what does it look like tolive in a tribal society?
What does it look like to havethat tribal community around you
(18:48):
where, yes, you're responsiblefor yourself, there are rites of
passage, you are learningskills that create value for the
entire community, but you'realso capable and you know that
you are of surviving alone,whether you happen to be on a
hunting party or it is a time ofwar or a time of peace or a
(19:09):
time of abundance or scarcity,that you are interdependently
connected to your community.
You are creating value, peopleare being cared for when someone
is at a low point and someoneelse is in abundance.
I guess you could kind of callit a bit of socialism.
But those are labels and stuffthat.
(19:31):
I'll be totally honest with you, i don't even pay that much
attention to them.
And people run around yellingsocialists, this and communism
and all those kinds of things,but I don't research that too
much.
I think if, again, if you're ina system where there's 100% good
actors, everything would beworking fine.
(19:52):
But there are not.
There are people acting out ofscarcity and it's unfortunate.
There's plenty for everybody,but they were taking care of
people, you know, people whodidn't have enough to get by at
a time.
The village would come together, the tribe would come together
and help them out.
They would make sure that theywere fed and clothed and cared
(20:13):
for, and elders are respectedfor the wisdom they bring to the
fire.
And children are protectedabove all else, because they are
the divine little beings whowill change the world.
They are the breath of thefuture.
So interdependence to me is apretty easy concept.
It is really just aboutcommunity and helping others,
(20:35):
cooperation, sharedresponsibility and collective
well-being.
And independence fostersindividuality, self-sufficiency
and personal growth.
Interdependent relationshipsalso foster personal growth Big
(20:55):
time, big time.
Listen to that again.
Interdependence also fosterspersonal growth in a huge way.
The reason being is thatrelationships are a playground
in which we get to do work thatwe cannot do by ourselves, and
so, whether that's romantic orplatonic, or business or any
kind of relationship, personalrelationships you want to be
(21:19):
really aware of that.
What comes up for you?
I was just having a conversationwith my coach last night during
our call, examiningrelationship and what does it
look like to love quickly, towalk around in love with
everyone, to see someone andjust love them.
(21:42):
What does that look like andwhat does that mean?
You know, really reframinglinguistically that people will
say I got my heart broken, like,yeah, you got your heart broken
open.
You got your heart broken open.
You have now had theopportunity to be just cracked
wide open, and it is anopportunity to make a decision
(22:05):
of like I will never experiencethat particular lesson again
because I don't need to.
That contract is fulfilled andthat, my friends, is a beautiful
, beautiful thing to be able toexperience.
So are you in a place where youare giving deep gratitude for
past relationships for pastexperiences.
(22:26):
All the hard things you've beenthrough are literally perfectly
suited for you specifically.
I couldn't go through your life.
I couldn't.
I couldn't go through your life.
I couldn't handle what you'vebeen through, and I'm perfectly
suited for the life that I'm inas well.
So what does that look like foryou?
(22:47):
Are you able to give genuinelove and gratitude for those
experiences?
Yes, i feel that whole body.
Yes, i just invite you.
(23:08):
I'm feeling this massive waveof just release and relief and
gratitude and I'm melting intoand out of myself into the
fabric that we share in thistapestry.
Oh, can you breathe in And justget curious.
(23:30):
Life is so juicy, it's sobeautiful and you have a choice.
You absolutely have a choice.
You have agency.
Are you fulfilled?
Does it feel like work or is itplay?
Have you made it a game?
Are you on that hustle, pornlifestyle of it's just grind,
(23:56):
grind, grind.
What do you worship?
Who do you worship?
Where does your money go?
What is distracting you fromyour purpose, from creating?
So, on this celebration ofindependence in America, i
(24:21):
really am inviting you, dearsweet, familiar, to consider
what does that actually mean tome?
America is not independent.
Let's get that right.
First and foremost, we live ina connected global economy and
(24:47):
the import, export industries,gdp, gross domestic product.
If America was independent, wewould fail.
We would fall apart.
We cannot take care ofourselves without others.
Without the support of othernation states and other
(25:12):
communities and collectives ofpeople across the globe, america
would fall apart.
So what if, instead of lookingat everything as competition, we
decided to view through thelens of interdependent
(25:34):
collaboration?
What could things look like ifwe ceased the scarcity mentality
and approach to globalizationand global engagement And we
began to view it through thelens of abundance?
What does life look like if weall took a little less and gave
(26:01):
a little bit more?
What does life look like if Ishowed you my whole heart in
every engagement, in everyinteraction, instead of the
walls or the armor, or thecalluses the spiritual and
(26:22):
emotional calluses that havebeen built up over a lifetime of
taking it personally, how canwe come together in community in
this moment, right now?
What can you do for yourselfthat will create value for the
(26:52):
collective?
For me, it's the continuation ofthe work.
It is using my voice to presentand offer ideas and invitations
to a new way of life, a new wayof being and really just
(27:14):
walking in love and light andtruth, truth and trust,
community, independent andinterdependent.
In all that I do, we have achoice, we truly have a choice,
(27:40):
and I hope that you're choosingthe joy and the pleasure and the
juiciness, because I knowfirsthand what it's like to live
a life alone while stillconnected in co-dependence.
I know what it's like to live alife ruled by dissociative
(28:02):
coping strategies of abusingalcohol, of running away from my
feelings through drugs andanything sex, pornography,
anything that could just numbthe pain while still allowing me
to feel something, just abusingmyself.
(28:23):
I've lived that life and I amwhole and complete and done with
those strategies and it feelsamazing and it's something even
a year or two ago I could nothave said to you.
I couldn't have said that toyou in authenticity And I've
(28:47):
mentioned before it's not, itwasn't overnight.
In a lot of ways it felt like it.
But then I took a step back andreally evaluated the path and I
have been doing work withcoaches and therapists and plant
medicine and and healthy drugs,mindfulness, meditation, yoga,
(29:13):
mobility flows, all kinds ofthings for years, for years.
In some ways I wasunintentional in it.
Some ways I didn't know what Iwas doing, but I kept doing, i
kept trying, i kept experiencing.
I continued to engage in thattaste, touch and smell of all
(29:34):
these things that, oh, thismight help me, oh, that might
help me.
And what came for me is thattalk therapy ends up being an
infinite black hole ofreinforcing negative, negative
stigmas for me, and that's notthe case for everybody.
(29:56):
I know some people who have hadgreat, great, great success
with talk therapy, but thatmodality in and of itself didn't
work for me.
When I found PSIP andpsychedelics, in conjunction
with integration therapy andspiritual practice and mindful
(30:16):
meditation, that changed thegame.
That changed the game.
And so, as I lean into mypurpose more and I continue to
share with you authentically,with this voice that is
independent and interdependentand truly free, i'll be sharing
with you more in depth about myjourney with psychedelic healing
(30:39):
, my experience in that realm,how impactful and beautiful it
has been for me, and the safetyfound therein.
So you are all so beautiful,you are all so absolutely
beautiful, and I am so gratefulthat you dropped in with me
(31:01):
today.
Happy Fourth of July.
I invite you to considercelebrating some interdependence
today.
What does that look like foryou.
How can you get down with yourtown, with your people, with
your vibe?
independent, interdependent,healthy and connected?
(31:22):
Oh man, i am your host, andrewCarroll.
I love and adore each and everysingle one of you.
Thanks for hanging out with me.
Now, get out there.
Get out there, go have some fun.
Take this love with you, mm,bathed in the sun.
Oh no, oh no, oh, all right, ilove you, family, take such good
(31:52):
care.
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