Fire Command, 3rd Edition

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:09):
This is the B Shifter Podcast.
John Vance, Nick Bernassini onthis special episode.
Welcome.
Today we're going to be talkingabout Fire Command Training and
specifically the Fire Command3rd edition textbook that is uh
available for purchase nextweek.

(00:30):
So if you're listening to thisuh the week of FDIC, it is for
sale at the B Shifter store.
So we're gonna talk about thattoday and really give you the
evolution of uh Fire Command andwhere it started, where it's at,
and uh why this is such animportant text for our industry.
How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_01 (00:50):
I'm doing very well, JV.
How are you?
Good, excellent outstanding.

SPEAKER_00 (00:53):
Yes, here we are.
We're here at the AVB C T CWe've got a really great group
of new incident commanderinstructors.
Beautiful, beautiful.
They're learning the blue cardsystem, and they're gonna bring
it back to their respectivedepartments.
So everywhere from Texas,Oregon, Washington State, a
continuation of what they'redoing, basically.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13):
Yeah old timers.
They're all doing it.
Couple, a couple newdepartments, too.
So it's oh that's good.
Excellent.
You know, when we've we've beendoing this for a while, and when
we first started doing bluecard, we quickly started
referring to it as black andblue card because you go off and
have long discussions and Idon't know that I call them

(01:36):
arguments, but discussions.
And it's it's crazy because likehere more recently than not is
like you get people fromdepartments that they got hired,
and that's all they've known.
So it it's like it's old enoughnow that it's older than some of
their careers, so there's not somuch black and blue that goes

(01:59):
on.
Although sometimes, well, as youwell know, you get out on the
road and then you have a like acult group of people that uh
then that can be a little blackand bluish, I suppose.

SPEAKER_00 (02:10):
Yeah, we we get it, we get a touch of that every
once in a while.
We get a stray jab.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (02:18):
You're out here to do this money grab.
We're not interested in this.
Go away.
Yeah, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (02:24):
I I was I was watching a very smart guy, Scott
Galloway, uh, the other day, andand he said that every 80 years
we repeat the same mistakes.
And like uh the after theRevolutionary War, no one wanted
war again until the Civil Warcame up, but everyone forgot
like how horrible war is.
Yeah, you don't want to gothrough all that.

(02:45):
Well, the that generation kindof dies off, so the next
generation, let's fight, let'sdo that.
And I'm I'm I feel like we're inthat same spot right now in the
fire service in a lot of ways,because there are a lot of
hard-learned lessons over thelast couple of decades, but
those people have retired out oftheir jobs now, and you're
hearing some of the newerfirefighters, even some of the
newer officers who want thingslike predetermined assignments

(03:07):
and stuff, and but they don'tknow why we got to where we are
right now, and they didn't livethrough the era of very poor
command.
Because a lot of us, the reasonwe instituted blue card or fire
command is because we didn'thave a system at all, or it was
very dependent on whoever was onduty.
So to be able to have aconsistent command system that
we can train on has improved ourfire departments greatly, but

(03:30):
people don't know the road rashthat it it took for us to take
to get there, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (03:38):
Well, and it it see the other part of it too,
talking to that element of likeincident command and structural
firefighting operations, is thatwas that was our only service
that we delivered for centuriesbasically in the country.

(03:59):
We did the fire department didstructural firefighting, and
you're right, there is a aplethora of opinions of what
that should look like,structural firefighting.
And it's all over the page.
And you're like, Well, who wastelling me?
Oh, Stuart would just got backfrom a a workshop they did, and

(04:20):
he said, one of the guys, an opschief, came over and he said,
you know, I'd like to thank youguys.
This is refreshing.
That you're doing adecision-making class for
structural firefighting, andlike the number one decision is
to put water on the fire.
And they're like, Well, yeah,what else would you do?
And he says, Oh, you'd besurprised.
So there's a lot of people thatcome in and they and well, this

(04:44):
has been part of fire serviceforever.
Is the the the real expertsdon't put water on the fire.
They do 800 things ahead of thatbecause you know, we're pros and
this is the way we do it.
You're like, Well, no, I thinkthe fire department should
recognize that our we're calledto put the fire out.
That's why they called us.
That's the only reason theycalled us, really, in many cases

(05:04):
as far as fires go, is thisfire's here and we don't want it
here, so make it go away.
So I I I think that's kind ofsometimes we forget that, I
guess.
Yes.
Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (05:14):
We're we're here to learn a lesson today, and and uh
the lesson really started wellprior to 1985, but it got shared
with the entire country in 1985when uh Fire Command One came
out.

SPEAKER_02 (05:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (05:26):
And that was the first book that Alan Brunicini
wrote, textbook for FireCommand.
It was something that you could,you know, ha have as a reference
to teach this as a a skill andand and get knowledge on fire
command.
So how did that happen?
Why did that happen?
What what got this whole thingstarted?

SPEAKER_01 (05:44):
My old man became a Phoenix firefighter in 1958.
He was 21 years old.
So he joins the fire departmentin the 50s, and I want to say
his training academy was a week,two weeks long, something like
that.
It was very short, you know.
These are hoses.
We use these to put move waterto put water on the fire, and

(06:06):
these are ladders, we use thoseto go up.
And then his class was, I think,the last recruit class that had
to take a pompei ladder to thetop of the drill tower.
So they start at the groundfloor, pompei their way up, I
think three or four flights,whatever the tower was back in
the day.
And then they had to jump intothe life net at the end, right?

(06:27):
So they they they use the thegooseneck ladder to scale the
side of the building, then theyhad to jump off the building
into the net, and then theybecome a firefighter.
So anyway, that was histraining, and then he gets he
becomes a firefighter, and hewas always keen on an education.
And then at the time, the cityof Phoenix, which was very

(06:48):
progressive for a city in the50s, is they actually had a
program where employees couldpetition the city to go to
school and like to college, andthey would send you.
And so he went to the fire chiefand he says, Hey, they have a
fire protection program atOklahoma State, and I want to
get a bachelor's degree in that,and blah, blah, blah.

(07:10):
So, very unusual.
And the fire chief was somewhatenlightened, and he he he
recognized, he says, Wow, thisyoung guy wants to go do this.
So he approved it.
He said, Yes, go.
So there was my dad spent abouta year and a half going back and
forth between Oklahoma State andthen the Phoenix Fire
Department.

(07:31):
And then he earned a degree in Iwant to say his fire protection
technology is what they calledit back then.
Basically, a fire protectionengineer is what he became.
He graduates, he comes back, andhe's riding the tailboard of
engine one.
So that's where he he's afirefighter, but he's a fire
protection engineer.
Very odd thing in like 1960 tohave that as a dual thing.

(07:55):
So over the next 10 years, heworks in the field is from
firefighter to company officer,right?
So his career spans this.
He recognizes very early, andyou see this in the Silverback
program we're producing, wherewe have video of him talking
about this early days as afirefighter and what that looked

(08:15):
like.
And he says he figured outpretty quickly that there was no
management system in place to doa fire, period.
And he's he said they were veryspectacular.
You know, it was sometimes youwere scared.
He says, you know, becausethings are blowing up and
there's really no mechanism.
It's just kind of task-levelsurvival, is what they're
learning.
So he's collecting this set ofquestions of why do we do it

(08:39):
like this?
And then the other part of it isyour personal safety really, it
was almost a challenge to makeit more dangerous for you as an
employee to go in and dowhatever it was.
So, and I mean, SCBAs are kindof a brand new invention.
They're really not wearing thosevery much.
And it's it's and I don't thinkhe ever wore an SCBA.

(09:01):
As I think what happened is bythe time he promoted, he
promoted, became a companyofficer.
During that era, companyofficers wore rebreather masks.
So it was it was a mask thatbasically filtered the outside
air, and then it would give youa little shot of oxygen on the
inhale to kind of put make sureyou had enough oxygen in your

(09:22):
breath.
But it just used the cartridgefilter to filter out whatever
you were breathing, which it wasnot very efficient or effective.
It would be against the law.
If if an employer gave anemployee that to go do
structural firefighting, theyprobably put him in jail about
an hour later.
It just wasn't a good idea.
It didn't work.
Well, I think his Waterloo came.

(09:44):
He was a company officer.
They go to a fire in a diner.
Night, the diners close, thefire starts in the kitchen,
boom, boom, they get there.
Couple engine companies areinside doing an interior fire
attack.
BC gets there, and this is backin the area in the early 60s,

(10:07):
where they have radios, butthey're not talking a lot on
them.
They scream on them, but there'snot orders, or it doesn't sound
like today.
And so the interior crews aredoing their their deal.
They're they're getting with itand they're pumping and humping.
So they're engaged in fireattack.
Well, the chief gets there, thechief sets up a defensive fire

(10:29):
operation, and then when that'sready to go, if the fire isn't
out on the inside, they justfire it up.
So there's two, three companiesinside doing an interior fire
attack, and now ladders areputting water in from above.
So that has the tendency to flipthe whole thing, and now what

(10:50):
was rising is sinking, and nowthese crews are overrun with
heat and the products ofcombustion, like a volcano
coming at them.
So they're dragging ass.
Well, like I say, the old man'sgot a cartridge filter mask he's
breathing through.
So as soon as that hits hiscartridge filter, it's so he's
pulling nothing.

(11:10):
He goes down a few secondslater.
Well, his senior firefighter isheading out and he runs into his
unconscious captain and he dragshis unconscious ass out of the
building.
They get out of the building,there's an ambo crew there, they
get him breathing again, takethem to the hospital.
They finish up at the firescene.

(11:32):
The BC goes to the hospital,collects my dad, and brings him
back to the scene so he can helphis crew overhaul the fire.
Oh yeah.
So now he's overhauling thisfire.
So that's his early career.
Well, the through the this erais he's taken a set of notes.
And he's like, this ain'tworking.

(11:55):
This is stupid.
And you know, there's and youstill hear it today.
It's like, well, you you know,you you need to be able to take
an ass whoop and you're gonna bea firefighter.
And you know, there's some truthto that because we operate in
places that are pretty shitty.
They're hot, they're they'rethey're they're they're they're
toxic, they're lethal.
But still, there's certainplaces you don't operate.

(12:18):
You don't put elevated masterstreams on top of people that
are inside interior firefightingpositions.
You're you're so now what it isis that if the fire doesn't kill
you, the fire department's goingto.
So there's really nothing tomanage any of this.
Well, and he's had a uniquecareer because he starts, and
that's all we do is fire attack.
Well, he becomes he promotes tochief.

(12:41):
So 58, 68.
So the late 60s, early 70s, hebecomes a battalion chief,
right?
Well, a few years after that,they start going on EMS calls.
They make that a new service.
Well, that was a whole differentthing to become medical.
See, before it was all it wasclose, man.

(13:02):
We were the we were the TemplarKnights.
That was you didn't get in.
The Illuminati ran it, and youjust did what you were told.
But now we have these outsideinfluences coming in.
Well, anyway, so we'll get backto the old man.
So he's collecting all thisexperience through his young
career, and he's like, this isnot smart.

(13:22):
Now, when he was a younger man,but in his teens, he worked in
the construction industry.
And he would go off during thesummers during high school, and
he would travel all over thewestern United States with a
masonry crew, and they builtschools, churches, and strip
malls.
So they built large buildings.

(13:43):
Hundreds of workers at thesekinds of things, big
construction company out of NewMexico, but they built all over
and there was big buildings.
And so he learned at a veryyoung age, occupationally, what
task-level labor looked like andhow the bosses managed that and
just what that was.
And he that was a differentsystem than what was happening

(14:06):
in the fire service.
So he had some background inthat.
Then he went to school, he gothis degrees and the rest of it.
In fact, he was started teachingit at Phoenix College at a young
age.
In fact, I think the first thinghe was an engineer and they put
him to work there, which wasvery young to go to work at that
time, but it's because he he wasa homegrown thing.

(14:26):
As they thought, okay, he's ourrecruit, our kid.
We sent him to college, he'sthis, that, and the other thing,
and we all understand where thisis gonna go.
So they just they said, okay,kid, you're gonna teach
hydraulics now, because thecaptain who teaches it just
retired.
So that's how he got hooked upthere.
So now he's watching all this,he becomes a company officer and

(14:49):
he's like, I'm gonna startchanging some of this stuff, and
we're gonna do things a littlebit differently.
So, and really there was a widevariety of skill levels amongst
just the regular cast ofcharacters that was on duty.
So you had some companies thatwere very proficient at like
being firefighters, uhestablishing water supplies,

(15:10):
advancing attack lines, allthat.
They uh they understood how allthat worked, they were very good
at it.
You had other crews that weren'tgood.
They sucked at it.
You know, and they may have beentrying or not trying, but for
whatever reason, there but theproblem was there was no
standards for it.
There's a really wasn't anythingthat you could hold somebody to
and account for and say, becauseyou were your training was a

(15:32):
weak.
You you used the Pompey ladderthat they weren't using anymore.
So I mean it none of itconnected with actually the
reality of what you were doingfor a living.
So he started to implementcertain things and he started to
look around outside the PhoenixFire Department at what was
going on everywhere.
And he's like, no, we need tostart fixing some of this stuff

(15:54):
occupationally.
And this deal that you can justtake an ass whooping, and that's
expected of you as afirefighter, is mistaken
seriously, because we're gonnaend up killing ourselves, is
that's what's next in this, iswe're gonna start producing line
of duty desks.
So he was pretty serious aboutcorrecting these things.
Well, as a young companyofficer, that's what they did.

(16:15):
They go out and drill and becomevery proficient at the task
level things that they needed todo.
Well, and they had a trainingmanual, but it wasn't very
specific.
It was more broad.
So most of this happened basedon who the officer was.
So he becomes a company officer,he's working downtown, he's got

(16:36):
engine one, and this is the waywe're gonna do things.
And they kind of had a standardroutine of what they did.
So they're trying to improve andperfect that.
Well, his next deal, he was acaptain for a few years, then he
becomes a battalion chief.
Well, he gets a battalion now,so he can do this across an
entire battalion.
So now what's happened is hestarts his everybody knew when

(16:59):
he went to school, what what thehell was going on there.
Once he comes back and theyfigure out, okay, he's one of
us, he's a mouth-breathingfirefighter, and now he's got a
degree.
So this is a new thing, butwe're gonna go ahead and give
him some space here just becausehe said when he he was he was a

(17:21):
captain.
There they go to a fire, and hisengineer, this old guy, he's he
he doesn't usually work withthem, but so they're working
together for a few shifts, andthey're going to this thing, and
they they get to this fire, andhe said, We burn this thing down
to the ground.
He says, We lost the mineralrights.
We burned this thing so badly.

(17:41):
And they're driving back, andthey're the engineer's going the
wrong way.
And he's like, Why are you goingthe wrong way?
He says, So, why are you goingto take us back to the station?
He says, Station, hell, I'mtaking us to Oklahoma.
You getting your money back.
He said, They stole that moneyfrom you, sir.
He ain't no smarter than therest of us.
He says, He's kind of laughing.
He says, The guy's right.
Yeah, you know, this is it iswhat it is.

(18:02):
But nonetheless, he becomes abattalion chief.
So he starts implementing thisin a battalion.
Well, now you've got abattalion.
And the other thing that's goingon is he is starting to draw, to
draw like-minded change agentsin the thing that are done.
They're like, no, this isstupid.
And, you know, I like they grewup together.
So they know the fire chief atthis time, and they I don't

(18:25):
trust that guy.
And they're just very familiarwith each other.
And he says he shouldn't behere, and this boom, boom, boom.
So now they're they're that thestage is set for change and
evolution and advancement.
So he starts doing this across abattalion.
Well, now he has his spread hiswings a little bit and he's

(18:47):
starting to touch placesoutside.
So he's starting to developrelationships with other fire
service professionals.
One of the things he hooked upwith, one of the places, was the
NFPA.
And they the NFPA, since theearly 1900s, has put out a
quarterly publication.
They called it the Fire Journal,they called it Fire Command.

(19:09):
They've called it a coupledifferent things.
It's evolved over, but it is acontinuous publication they have
put out for over a hundredyears.
Well, he ended up hooking upwith them, and now he is trying
to design an incident commandsystem for a large Metropolitan
Fire Department as a battalionchief.

(19:31):
So now he's probably got 20, 25,30 stations, is how big Phoenix
is then.
And, you know, it's starting,it's growing, it's getting
bigger and bigger, and they'rehiring more and more people.
And and they're starting to lookat other service delivery, like
EMS is starting to come up.
And so now you're starting tosee the evolution of the fire

(19:51):
service there.
So he starts writing thesearticles for NFPA Fire Command
Magazine.
And really what it is, is hisexperience and adventure and
designing an incident commandsystem for a big metro system,
essentially.
And so they start talking aboutstaging and the different ways

(20:14):
that you you can assigntask-level companies to a work
and fire.
So they're going through thestandardized evolutions.
Well, freelancing is really kindof the mainstay system that the
fire service used up to thatpoint.
And then they tried to refinethat by doing like SOP-based
deployment systems.

(20:34):
See, now remember, all thishappened before radio
communications.
So there's no way, you know, theradio communications back in the
day was a speaking trumpet.
So that's where you get thebugles for your rank, is this is
how high I get to talk and howfar.
So well, with radios, you couldtruly take command now because
everybody could communicate witheach other verbally.

(20:57):
So that kind of set the stagefor incident command to take
place.
So you had to have theseadvancements first.
So as this happens, they startimplementing so freelancing,
SOP-based deployment.
So it's all arrival order.
So if you're the first engine,you're going to establish a
water supply to the alpha sideand operate to your best

(21:19):
efficiency.
If you're second, do you go tothe Charlie side, whatever it
looks like.
So everybody just designs itthat way.
Now, neither one of thosethings, you do an SOP-based
deployment is not managing anincident.
What you're doing is you'redeploying companies based on the
order they arrive to the scene.
You're not managing anythingbecause you're not sizing

(21:39):
anything up.
That's the problem with SOPbased deployment.
There's no size up in it.
And it just kind of defaults tothe offensive strategy.
We're going to be going inside.
Well, if you pull up to thedynamite factory and it's
rocking and rolling, you're notgoing, I'm not going to lay a
line and go operate inside thatbuilding because it's going to
be like eight zip codes awayhere in a couple seconds.
So uh uh Wrong o dong o.

(22:03):
So an incident command system,they figure out you need an
incident commander.
That's what this is supposed tolook like.
Well, even when they're startingto make this, the chiefs don't
know.
Well, what the hell do you wantme to do?
So it becomes this deal thatnobody really knows what that
looks like.
So that's what they were makingsense of.
So as my old man's careerprogressed, especially from

(22:26):
company officer into battalionchief, that's really where the
that started happening, at leastfor fire command.
So he wrote this article, andthis became a more ongoing
thing.
And then other people, likethere was a huge thing going on
in Southern California with theUrban Wildland Interface and
Fire Scope and two-wide NIMS isgoing on, and then National

(22:50):
Wildland Coordination Group, theNWCG, all that is happening back
then.
Everybody, well, that's incidentcommand.
And you're like, no, no, this isnot incident command you're
going to be doing on the EastCoast.
This is West Coast big firearea.
We're burning down neighborhoodscommand.
This is this is 30, 40 firedepartments getting together to
do a big thing.

(23:10):
And then when those guys weredone, Fire Scope, LA would all
go back and they do LA homegrowntactics, which a lot of them
said it's fire command.
We do the same thing out of firecommand, your old man talks
about, but when we go to the bigone, we use NIMS.
That's the way perfect.
That's the way that works.
So those kind of became the twosystems.

(23:31):
You had California through theDepartment of Forestry and NWCG
doing their thing in FEMA.
That became type one, two, andthree land.
So the federal and state levelincident responses became that.
And then even today with NIMS,as they say, just use whatever

(23:52):
works for your type four andfive.
So that's the other part ofthat.
Well, so anyway, the old man'sputting all this content
together with the NFPA.
Well, it begins, and it wasn't abook, it was like teaching aids.
So, like these remember thesecaramate narrated programs?

(24:13):
Like in a community college, youhave a caramate projector, you
put the slide tray, you put thetape in, you hit play on the
tape, and then the tape wouldnarrate the thing, and then
there'd be a beep, and thatwould signal the slide selector
to advance a slide.
And then the next slide dropsand the narration starts.

(24:34):
That was like it was earlyPowerPoint, and you had the
instructor just read the things.
So that's what it was.
That was fire command.
And they talked about apparatuspositioning, they talked about
staging.
There was a program for each oneof those major like SOP-based
things you had to do to be ableto do incident command.
See, if you don't have stagingprocedures, you can't do
incident command, it justdoesn't work.

(24:55):
So if so we talked about if youuse a freelancing system, you
don't need staging procedures.
If you do assignment bydeployment, SOP arrival order,
you don't need stagingprocedures because they just go
do what's on the card or theyjust go do what they want.
It's one of those two things.
Well, none of them, they're noteffective.
They just aren't.

(25:16):
It's not really a commandsystem.
It's we're gonna do this insteadof doing command.
And for the fire service, that'sa lot of it.
Is we'll do something as long aswe don't have to really do
incident command.
Don't tell us what to do when weget to the scene.
We just it's instinctual for me.
I feel what I'm gonna do.
And you think, nah, feeling it,and then I'll know when it's
done, because I know it's not avery good way to operate.

(25:38):
Very bad way to operate.
Bankrupt and in prison is wherethat's gonna put you, or dead.
But you're gonna be a loser init because that's not built to
win.
I mean, it's just built not tohave to do what you're supposed
to do.
So he produces the NF, he andthe NFPA produced this this

(26:00):
series.
It's basically every chapter ofwhat becomes Fire Command got
its own slide carousel narratedthing.
Then the next thing was theymade a video, fire command in
action.
So, and then there were someflyers, there was a little bit
of printed material, but therewasn't a book.
And so the NFPA gets to thepoint, and they say, you know,

(26:25):
this has to have a book to gowith it.
You know, that's really kind ofwhat we're missing now.
And so he's like, Yeah, well, weshould write a book because
we've got all these SOPs and allthis other.
I have a stack of stuff that weneed to organize and collate
into book for him, and that'sgoing to be the first edition of
Fire Command.
So the first edition of FireCommand contained standard

(26:46):
company functions, staging, firebehavior stuff.
It beg it contained half a dozendifferent SOPs that you would
need in order to do incidentcommand.
And then it contained the sevenfunctions of command, which
became the job list for the IC,essentially.
And then the system that you hadto build for that individual to

(27:06):
be successful in managing thatincident operation.
So they produced that book, andthat got printed probably like
1985 is when that came out, andthat was brand new.
And then there was a studentworkbook that came out with it
at the same time, and then therewas all this other auxiliary
content and curriculum that wasalready produced ahead of that.

(27:29):
So that kind of became theNFPA's incident command system,
essentially, at the time.
So in 1985, you had fire commandcame out, and then really what
happened, the thing that likestitched this into the fabric of
the American Fire Service is inthe early 70s.

(27:51):
See, he's he's a BC now, right?
So he's a battalion chief.
I don't think he's become theops chief yet, but he's got some
juice in the system, and peopleare starting to pay attention to
him from other places, otherstates, the feds, so he he's his
stature's kind of growing andwhat he's being a fire fire guy.
So he ends up writing this book,and then well, before he wrote

(28:21):
the book, in the early 70s, whenthey figured out what the what
the table of contents was goingto look like for the book.
So they figure out these are thefunctions we're gonna use.
Here's the other stuff you haveto have.
The the the uh auxiliary SOPsthat go with the being in
command.
And then they presented that atFDIC in was it in Memphis?

(28:42):
Where it was before it went toIndiana.
So it was Nashville?
Maybe Nashville, it could havebeen Nashville.
Exactly.
Stewart's got the brochure fromthat.
Varner dropped it off here notlong ago.
And so he goes, him, Varner, andKime, those three guys, and they
go and do a two-day presentationat FDIC on basically fire

(29:06):
command, the functions ofcommand.
And there was hundreds of peoplethat watched that first deal.
Many of them came up to himafter the class, and they're
trading cards.
The guy says, I want you to cometo my fire department and teach
what I just sat through.

(29:27):
So there's like-minded people inthe fire service that have the
same growing up stories as hedoes, and they're like, We gotta
fix this.
This this this old wayfreelancing and arrival
order-based SOPs don't work.
It's not efficient, it's noteffective, it's it's no good.

(29:50):
And in fact, a lot of peoplejust over the course of my
career said, No, you can't havelike you expect a fire captain
to make decisions like this, andyou're like, Well, yeah, uh, no,
they're too stupid.
They can't do that.
I mean, even trainers, guys thatwere like very active in
training, would make stupidstatements like you can't even

(30:10):
explain what the first do engineoperator does, all their duties.
And you're like, You can'tbecause you never did it, and
you're just not a smart person.
You're more of a cultural iconor idiot.
I don't know.
It's one of those two.
I don't know which one it is,but it's one of them.
And no, that you can, and that'sthe way you train people.

(30:33):
Like a neurosurgeon operatesinside your brain.
That's even more confusing, andthey just go to school to learn
how to do it.
I mean, that's the way the shitworks.
So, anyway, he builds thisprogram, and then there's a
grassroots of people because hepresents it at a big national
conference, and so and he didthat, I want to say, for the
next 20 years, probably.

(30:55):
The same thing.
He shows up and well, that washis first FDIC.
He never missed one.
He died in 2017, and I think hedied in when was it, October?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So he had been six months out ofFDIC.
Uh, I mean, he's probably at iton his calendar for the next
one.
So that's just what the guy did.
So, anyway, that's where thefirst edition came from.

(31:15):
He, in 1985, it was published.
He had been the fire chief inPhoenix for seven years when
that book came out.
But I remember him writing itbefore I got hired as a
firefighter.
So I got hired in 80.
So in the 70s, I remember agroup of people sitting in his
house uh yelling at each otherover what what was going to be

(31:36):
in the book.
I wouldn't yell with thebunches.
What he's gonna do, you guyskeep trying to argue about this.
He's gonna take you outside,give you a shuffle.
What were the arguments?
Do you remember?
Or what just like what they weredo we stage, do we do this?
Just everything you can imaginebuilding a command system.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (31:52):
And kind of like what black and blue cards.

SPEAKER_01 (31:54):
Yeah, exactly.
So that's kind of what it was.
And there was a group of themthat that kind of were producing
it.
And so there was a guy named JimEvora who wanted to become a
publisher, and he worked inVirginia somewhere, as I
remember.
And he was gonna be the guy whowas the book guy.
So he was gonna become Ifsta.
And I mean, he was really he hadfigured this out, and my dad's
book was gonna be the first one.

(32:15):
And then the artist they wereusing was a guy named Don
Sellers.
And so it was those three guyswere the book.
And so that was they did athree-way cut, and that's the
way they went with the firstedition of Fire Command.

SPEAKER_00 (32:27):
So, how widely accepted was that?
And and who started using it?
You know, of course, it wasbeing used here in the valley.
I mean, it was the commandsystem that was being used here,
but uh but how how how did thatspread?
And how did the because Iremember I off that first
edition watching the videos, wehad the VHS tapes on each
function of command.

SPEAKER_01 (32:46):
Well, the the there was one VHS tape that did the
whole system, and that was thatthey we burned a uh apartment
building in Phoenix.
And you know, my dad was anarrator, and they had the
little track they would set upwith the dolly for the cameras,
and Tiller the Clown was the guyup on the floor, you know,
giving can reports, although wedidn't call them that then.
So I think it was just the NFPAselling it, it was the only game

(33:11):
in town.
So and then, like if you went toCalifornia, you were doing NIMS,
but see, everybody said they'recompeting, and they never were a
competition between those twosystems.
It's just that's I mean, that'sjust the way we context shit.
We love to do that.
One of them is for huge typeone, two, and three incident
operations.
FEMA's system is is tremendous.

(33:34):
There's not a better system foridentifying who's in charge of
something.
That's kind of the way thiswhole country was designed.
Is all the states make up theUSA, right?
It's all the states.
So the feds kind of take care ofstates that are having issues,
like problems, like tornadoes,hurricanes, earthquakes, large

(33:56):
wildland fires.
See, the state isn't able to dothat because they don't have the
capacity of the whole country.
They don't have the Coast Guard,they don't have the Army, they
don't have the National Guard,none of that.

SPEAKER_00 (34:09):
Or the knowledge based on how to even operate it
if they did.

SPEAKER_01 (34:12):
Because it's so rare for some of the FEMA teams,
these type one FEMA teams thatshow up and manage these giant
wildland fires.
There's though that's a closedsystem.
You don't get to show up.
Engine one doesn't show up, butI'm gonna be the IC on the Rodeo
Chettesky fire.
You start it off, but how youstart it off 15 minutes later,

(34:35):
commands transferred to a chiefin a car.
Rodeo Chettusky, that guy's gotthat fire for three days until
the feds get there and build ateam and put it down and then
take the whole thing over.
It's the way it's supposed towork.
Until somebody figures out abetter way, we should stick with

(34:56):
that.
Nobody's figured out a betterway to do FEMA, so don't get rid
of it yet.
You know, and I think that'swhat happened here over the last
year and a half.
Oh, we're gonna get rid of FEMAbecause we just don't like it.
Well, you don't know the firstthing about it.
Well, they got rid of it, andthen the next day they put it
back in because you can't getrid of it.
It does too much.
It it's it responds todisasters.

(35:19):
So, anyway, that's kind of thething.
That's and so that's where itgrew from is the NFPA pushed
that because the NFPA owned it.
Now, when my dad wrote the book,he see the videos, the
slideshows, the like the the thepamphlet style material that
they had released, all that wasowned by the NFPA.

(35:41):
And they had made a fair amountof money on that.
Big bucks.
So when the book was written,they told my dad, they said,
You're gonna be the author ofthe book.
We're not.
So the first time that's everhappened with the NFPA.
I don't, I'm not aware of itever happening since then.
The NFPA does not put people'snames on a book, they publish a
book by the NFPA or a standard.

(36:03):
Well, that was an Alan Brunicinibook, and he kept it.
And that's the way their lawyerset it up.
So that guy was hugging a kiss.
So that was the first edition ofthe book, and the first edition
was it was revolutionary enoughthat it never really got up, it
didn't need to be updated untilhe got around to doing it,

(36:25):
basically, for the secondedition.
But the first edition was so I'mnot gonna say revolutionary, but
it was different enough thanwhat we were doing that people
just some people, well, I ain'tever gonna do this.
I agree.
I'm more of a NIMS ops guy.
And you're like, no, you you youdon't want to be accountable or
do anything.
So you think NIMS Ops iswhatever you say it is, it
isn't.

(36:46):
That was really the genesis ofthe first book, and that was uh
and I mean, even today, if itwas still the first edition,
there'd be people arguing not todo it.

SPEAKER_00 (36:53):
I mean, that's just what you got in the society.
And I really think when I lookat the way my departments used
it back then, um, because I gotin the fire service in 1990 and
we were using it.
It was in the library, but weuse parts of it.
Yeah, we would we would takepieces of it.

SPEAKER_01 (37:07):
You'd pick you pick and choose, and that's what you
were able to do, and you stillcan for structural firefighting
because there's nobody that doesanything with it to that level
that says, no, you have to dothis, this, and this.
So, like EMS, you didn't pickand choose out of the orange
Brady book what you were gonnado.
You're gonna do all of itbecause if you didn't, there was
a group of people that weregonna come get you and it was

(37:29):
gonna hurt.
Well, see, we can't screw thatup because that's the medical
community.
And then we got into hazmat,right?
That was probably the next thingwe did because we responded to
hazmat calls, and those were sodifferent than fires that if you
did the same routine that we didon regular structure fires, you
would die at a hazmat call.
And that was happening.

(37:49):
So there was a group of fireservice people that went to the
NFPA and they said, We we got tohave a different routine for
hazmat.
We can't use the structuralvacant approach that you just do
what you want when you pull up,as we need like rules and
regulations.
The NFPA said, Yeah, we do, andso we're gonna do hazmat.
Well, the first hazmat came outof IFSAC.

(38:11):
That was the first hazmatcertification.
Because the people who went tothe NFPA, the hazmat heads, the
early OG ones, they said, okay,good.
And they said, So they'retalking to the NFPA, and they
said, Yeah, we're gonna have astandard and we're gonna have
this, and this is the way aconsensus standard works.
And the hazmat guy says, Well,we got some great news.

(38:33):
It's all done.
Here it is.
And they said, Well, that's notthe way consensus standards
work.
And they said, We gather theexperts in that field, and
they're these people were fromdifferent fire departments, and
some of them were chemists thatwork for industry, and they
said, That's us.
And I said, Nah, well, we it's adeal that you you put it out
ahead that we're gonna do this,and then people come in and

(38:55):
that's what they're gonna do.
They're just not gonna look atwhat you did, and they're like,
No, we're we're not interestedin that.
We're not interested in fiveyears.
That's how long it takes youguys to do a standard.
And I think the NFPA is the onethat said you should go to IFSAC
because they do non-NFPAcompliant standards.
And so if there's not anexisting standard, IFSAC will

(39:15):
make one.
The Pro Board won't do thatbecause we own them.
The NFPA ran the Pro Board.
That was an instrument of them,basically, back then.
And what the Pro Board did isthey just vetted your training
to make sure it supportedwhatever was in the standard.
So that's kind of what it was.
So when you had like athird-party accredited training,

(39:38):
that's who it came from, was thePro Board or from IFSAC.
Well, the first hazmat was IFSACbecause there wasn't a standard
for it in the NFPA.
So five years later, the NFPAputs out a standard, so the
IFSAC standard just defaults tothat one now.
Okay, there's a standard inplace.
All of this stuff beats itbecause it it's the same as what
you guys did here five yearslater.

SPEAKER_00 (40:01):
So that's kind of the way that's the way all that
works.
Let's fast forward to 2002.
Then we get second edition.
First edition is successful.
I mean, it's it's in the librarythroughout, you know, you could
go to fire every fire stationand well, fire stations where
they wanted to learn and you'dfind you'd like to.

SPEAKER_01 (40:16):
Oh, well, they had a fire station library.

SPEAKER_00 (40:17):
Yeah, yeah.
It'd be in there.
And then 2002, we end up withthe second edition.
So why why do we what was in thesecond edition and how did that
really vary from the original?

SPEAKER_01 (40:28):
Well, my own man wanted to do a second edition,
basically.
So the first edition was builtuh around those SOPs where you
had staging, yada, yada, yada.
Well, refracting edition, headded a function of command
deployment.
He said that there was alwayssomething missing from the first
edition, and he says we justcouldn't figure out what it was.

(40:50):
Well, it was actually deployingpeople on the fire ground.
And see, that's where you getthe SOP freelancing or
assignment by the IC.
Those are the three ways you canassign people to an incident.
For structure fire, at least.
So it's a we're we needdeployment because that's more
that's where the IC comes in.

(41:11):
You actually have that boom,boom, boom.
So okay, we'll put deploymentin.
And then there was nothing elsein it.
Is the first edition had allthose SOPs for like company
activities, standard engineladder function, support work,
search and rescue guidelines,all that kind of stuff.
So he said, the second edition,we'll just take all we don't

(41:31):
need that, and we'll do where itapplies within each function, is
that's where we'll include it.
So, like, remember Jeff King andWhy?
Ask why.
Yeah, Simon, the book.
Yeah.
The second edition was that thatwas my dad answering the
question, why.
So, I mean, the second editionhad a lot more.

(41:53):
This is the reason we do thisand why we do it like this, and
what it looks like.
And so I think it it was more ofa discussion of how it got here
and the effect of that,somewhat.
So that kind of became thesecond edition in the thing.
And then the other part of thatis we released a student

(42:16):
workbook.
We released a very robustinstructor's guide that had
presentations for each functionof command, and then it had a
set of simulated structurefires, like a four-slide set.
Picture of a building withnothing showing, picture
building with offensive fireconditions, marginal fire

(42:37):
conditions, and defensive fireconditions.
Those four slides you couldteach a two and a half hour
tactics class to whoever youraudience was, just with those
four slides, nothing else.
And it was powerful.
I'm the latter guy who knows themost about all of this.
You could actually have anintelligent discussion with

(42:58):
those folks.

SPEAKER_00 (42:59):
Well, and that was being used at junior college
classes, too.
Like our my junior college Iwent to was using that for yeah,
that's what it was for.

SPEAKER_01 (43:06):
That's we built it to teach that.
I mean, that's kind of what wedid.
So, and then my brother had madea set of DVDs, the like nine DVD
set, and then we had some forcritical factors outside of
that.
So there's probably about Idon't know, a dozen and a half
DVDs that went with the secondedition.
You could buy there was theinstructor guide, the student

(43:27):
workbook.
And so with that, and and atthat point in my career, I was a
battalion chief.
So I actually helped write agood chunk of the second edition
of the book.
And it started out, my dad wasdoing it, and then he did I
become a BC and I'm doing X, Y,and Z.
And so he would start sending meshit.
So we just would start goingback and forth.

(43:48):
So that developed the secondedition, and then when that was
done, the NFPA produced thatalso, all the other content we
had with it, too, whole thing.
And then after that came out.
In 2002 was the publishing day.
But Southwest supermarkets hadhappened right about the time

(44:10):
Fire Command was beingpublished.
Right?
So that that occurs.
Well, then my old man dropsright before Southwest
supermarkets.
So that's a five-year window.
So you got five years, and thenon the back end of that five
years, you gotta leave.
So the last five years of hiscareer, he signs his drop papers

(44:31):
a few days later, a month eitherway, before or after that.
June.
So yeah, two months.
Drops, Tarver dies at Southwestsupermarkets.
We do a five-year recovery, andwithin about six months of the
recovery, you know, you knowwhat caused the thing.

(44:54):
All the stories out, all thebullshit's done.
Everybody knows the real story,what happened.
And that this is it was westarted offensive and we got
into late stage offensive, andthen we got into early stage
defensive operations inside acommercial building.
And those guys were wereoperating like they were inside
a 1,500 square foot house, andthey ended up it it turned to

(45:17):
shit.
That's what happened, man.
It did a horrible thing.
So but really the takeaway forme in that was tactical
supervision, is you've got to bedoing if you don't have a
tactical level at some pointwhen something goes wrong, it
the strategic level is gonna goaway.
Because you're not the threeminutes after the main day
happened, IC lost completecontrol over the scene.

(45:40):
It just there was nothing youcould do.
And until they put thosetactical bosses in place, you
weren't gonna get it back.
That's what it took.
So so anyway, the lessonslearned from that got put into
command safety.
And command safety is really thesafety effect of using an
incident command system.
So I think the thing happened inthe fire service has been

(46:01):
happening forever is like wedon't want to do incident
command or anything.
We don't want to do anythingthat slows us down on the front
end of this because our biggestwindow of opportunity is the
very beginning of that incidentfor a structure fire to put it
out, right?
So we need to take effectiveaction and that front end window
that solves the problem.
Well, incident command has a badrap of this is a bureaucratic

(46:25):
thing and it just stops any goodforward progress.
Well, no, what it does is itaccelerates good forward
progress and it stops stupidfrom happening.
So you you can actually manageyour response and you can put
the fire out that much better.
Yeah, I never understood it.
Is we were vapid to attack thefire.

(46:50):
So, like 30 seconds after youget on the scene and they set
the break is we're going throughthe front door with a with 150
gallons a minute.
I mean, you're you're you'regetting it.
So, and you have huge successoff of that.
Well, the problem is that whenit doesn't work, you need to
move back before it kills you.

(47:10):
So again, my old man's earlything, if the fire don't kill
you, the fire department will.
Well, the thing is, is no,you're gonna go in and kill the
fire, and I'm gonna manage it ina way that I'm not gonna let the
fire kill you.
So if you can't kill it, I'mgonna pull you out before it can
get you.
So, and it's not a half-assedattack we're doing.
It's aggressive.

(47:31):
Yeah.
You're when I retired from mygovernment job, my biggest
concern is we are going too hardagain.
Is that we could manage thatfrom the moment I could manage
all of them.
But when the roof falls on them,they're dead.
I can't do anything about that.
And you were having late-stageoffensive success in buildings
that you shouldn't have.
You're like, no, that thisbuilding should be torn down

(47:53):
within the next week or it'sgoing to collapse.
We shouldn't have been able todo this.
So it's that kind of stuff youlook at in an after-action
review and say, this is we'refeathering the edge again.
We need to to make sure thatwe're operating in places that
we can protect ourselves,basically.
So, and the way you do that isyou manage your response to that

(48:15):
incident.
So that's kind of what thesecond edition and where it came
from and what it did.
Well, after command safety waspublished, see, then in Phoenix,
we went from an administrativeincident organiz an
administrative fire departmentorganization to manage the

(48:37):
day-to-day operations to anoperational one, right?
So we went from staff deputiesmanaging in the operation
division to to shift deputies.

SPEAKER_00 (48:50):
Who are in the field on 24-hour shift.

SPEAKER_01 (48:52):
Yeah.
So you always had strategic youhad two, well, you had two shift
commanders all the time, andthey were the ranking officers
that were the senior advisors inthe command post.
So they took care of a prettybig response area.
550 square miles, about amillion and a half people, 50
fire stations, about 600 on-dutyfirefighters in Phoenix.

(49:15):
You had at least that many inthe rest of the city that we did
automatic aid with, the rest ofthe county, if you will.
Maricopa County is about 10,000square miles and about, I don't
know, 5 million people.
And it's got shit, 26, 27 firedepartments that make it up.
So you've the hundreds of, Imean, and it's all hooked

(49:37):
through a dispatch center.
So they all work together today.
It's it's truly a county system.
It has been for 50 years.
Yeah.
So, and that's where all thiscame from.
I mean, that's you you had crazyAlan Brunicini kind of is the
shepherd of that, yeah.
Yeah, of the thing.
And he kind of is responsiblefor the automatic aid.
Is he's the guy that went to theother cities and said, hey, this

(49:57):
is mutual aid stupid.
We need to do automatic aid.
So that was all part of it.
Well, fire command's really kindof the book that he used to
manage that in a very activeway, pretty much.
So that's what the secondedition then, and we saw this,
we thought, okay, we're gonna dothis.
And see, I grew up in a systemwhere we full service.

(50:21):
So we did EMS, hazmat, TRT, andthen what we're calling social
response today.
So whatever the hell that is.
EMS calls it really aren't EMSrelated.
They're more social.
So when you looked at thosesystems, especially like EMS, is

(50:41):
everybody in the fire departmentthat worked in the field had a
medical certification.
You were an EMT or a paramedic,one of the two.
And you were one.
And if you weren't one, youweren't working in the field.
And it wasn't a deal.
Oh, he lost his EMT last week.
We need to get him out.
They knew the minute you lostyour EMT license or paramedic

(51:02):
license, and you were done.
Somebody from personnel came andgot you and said, You ain't
working in the field, pal.
And usually people lost itbecause there was some reason.
You know, they they were havingsome trouble in their life or
whatever it was.
So, but you didn't haveanything.
See, you had that for hazmat.
If you were a tech, a hazmattech, you were certified and you

(51:24):
maintained your trainingthroughout the year.
And you had to have so manytraining hours every year to
maintain your hazmat techposition.
Same thing for uh technicalrescue, ongoing training that
went with that.
So EMS, hazmat, and being afirst responder, you had hazmat
shit you had to do every year,and you had TRT shit you had to

(51:45):
do for first responders, andthen you had the OSHA stuff you
had to do, the bloodbornepathogen stuff.
And then you had your everythree years we had to recertify
as EMTs or paramedics, and whatthat looked like.
So the only place we didn't dothat was for structural
firefighting.
There was none of it.
So once you graduated from theacademy and got what was the
equivalency of your firefighterone and two, is you were good to

(52:08):
go for your whole career forstructural firefighting.
If you promoted to companyofficer, they may have put you
through a up to a week-longacademy to be a company officer.
And there may have been amorning or an afternoon where
you did some kind of asimulation for incident
operations, but that wasn't 10%of your academy.

(52:31):
It just wasn't.

(53:04):
You had to put up all theladders that an engine company
carried, the three groundladders, and then they would
check you off on that.
And then every year, probablyabout 5% of the companies would
have some kind of difficulty orissue, and then they would just
it would require a little extratraining to get them through for
whatever reason.
So that was pretty much kind ofto keep the task level on the

(53:25):
same page, but there was nothingfor command piece.
So, you know, we had strategyand tactics and things like
that.
So out of Southwestsupermarkets, we ended up
developing the blue cardprogram.
Well, initially, when we taughtit in the Phoenix Fire
Department to the Phoenixfirefighters, that was all in
person.
Shift commanders taught it usingPowerPoint.

(53:47):
That's what it was.
And then we'd simulate.
And everybody loved it.
This is the greatest trainingever.
You know, why'd it take so long?
It's like, well, it's just thenext natural progression in
this.
So now we're here, so here weare.
So that had a gigantic impact.

(54:08):
Like the first year, year and ahalf, we did CTC command
training.
Now there was like 650, 700students because we'd used all
the officer in Phoenix, and thenwe opened it up to the other
cities.
So there were enough people thatwe couldn't do it over quarters.

(54:28):
We had to do trimesters.
So you had to have four-monthtraining blocks.
After a year to a year and ahalf, it standardized operations
across the fire department insuch a way, because we would we
always did like after-actionreviews, right?
So you guys would come toPhoenix for conferences and we
would show you after actionreviews, and this is how the

(54:50):
system worked, and it'd be areport card over the last year.
We used it, and this is what thesystem did.
So the ranking chiefs, the thefire chief, the ops chief, the
training chief, all those guysare involved in these
after-action reviews.
So we're doing an after-actionreview one day.
We've had this system for ayear, two years, whatever it

(55:13):
was.
And the fire chiefs and opschief, well, the group of them
said, you know, this is odd forus because this is the first
time in our careers where we'vecome in to one of these
presentations for an incidentreview, and the people that were
operating on the north side ofthe fire are telling the same

(55:35):
story as the people who areoperating on the south side of
the fire.
That's never happened before.
And they're looking at us likeyou guys are like staging this.
You're cheating somehow.
There's like you're informingthem or something's going.
There's an earpiece.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, there is.
It's called tacticalsupervision.
That's what it is.

(55:56):
We're putting BCs in placeswhere we normally wouldn't put
them.
You just leave a companyofficer.
Well, that's that's we talkabout the third edition Vance.
There's a lot of talking abouttactical level.
That that's that was the missingpiece during my career.
Is the tactical level was hit ormiss in my system.

SPEAKER_00 (56:14):
Well, I wanted to say too, when you and you
brought up the symposiums, butat the same time that that this
was really impacting the theMaricopa County area,
specifically Phoenix and around,it's also impacting everyone in
the United States.
Because you guys are writingabout it.
It's in every trade magazine,it's at every conference.
There was an incident commandsymposium here.

(56:35):
That's how Tim Schauble and Istarted coming out here and
seeing what was going on becausewe wanted to replicate it.
You hear about the success, buthow can we simulate?
How can how can we take thisinformation and deliver it to
our people?
And that's really where we gotinto Blue Card after that.
But you guys were impactingeverybody.
All eyes were on Phoenix.

SPEAKER_01 (56:53):
Well, and part of it was the the relationship my dad
had with the NFA, becausethey're the there's only one of
them.
And they so really, firstedition of Fire Command comes
out in 85.

SPEAKER_00 (57:04):
What was it, 88 that 1500 came out?
I think it was right after firecommand.
I think it was 85 as well.
The first edition.

SPEAKER_01 (57:14):
It was it was closer to 88, I think.
Anyway, but you're right.
It was somewhere between 85 and88.
It's based off fire command.
That was the energy of firecommand pushed that.
And in fact, that was after firecommand, the NFPA said, uh, what
do you want to do?
I'm gonna do a safety standardfor firefighters.

(57:35):
And they're like, all right,this crazy bastard just wrote an
incident command book that we'regetting death threats on from
certain people, certainquarters.
Oh, we ain't gonna do incidentcommand.
You think, you know, you moronshave been alive for a really
long time.
You just call yourself a littlesomething different today, don't
you?
Uh-huh.
Yeah, uh-huh, yeah.
We know who you are.
Anyway, once the NFPA pushed itout, that was I think that gave

(58:02):
it the validation because theywere the in charge of the fire.
Well, at least making standardsfor the fire service, they were
the only ones.
But when they did 1500, thatthat put them down.
The NFPA.
They were not prepared for that.
And they they said, This is thiscrazy man was able, and he got

(58:26):
death threats for 1500.
People actually wrote himletters and said, We're gonna
kill you.
You can't tell us how we'regonna take care of our
firefighters.
And he his standard line is hesays, You spend more taking care
of your apparatus, you don'tspend any money taking care of
your firefighters.
Yeah, yeah, no, you're and infact, if I'm being honest, I
don't think he had a high regardfor those people.

(58:47):
And I think if they wanted tocome talk to him personally, he
would have been happy to engagethem and have that conversation.
Uh 100%.
He would have, yeah.
Tom Brennan.
I'm gonna meet Alan Brunicini.
Those guys were hugging eachother with at the end.
And I thought, it's a good thingyou're hugging because he'd be

(59:08):
choking your ass to death rightnow if you weren't.
And they keep kicking the dog.
I'm gonna bite you.
Anyway, but that was it.
Once that standard went, theNFPA said, You're gonna be the
chairman now.
And they made him the chairmanof the NFPA then.
They said shit, the guy can doanything.

(59:28):
Everything he said he's gonnado, he did.
Nobody, this hasn't happenedbefore.
So he was a unique character inthe thing.
And he was he never yelled andscreamed at people.
He would just talk his way intomaking enough sense that they,
yeah, we have to do this.
Well, became best friends withthe IFF.
There was a group of the IFF,just mostly that dealt with him.

(59:50):
Uh Foley, a whole group of them.
But but that that Al Whiteheadwas a partner in the 1500 thing,
and he was running the localthen.
And he says, no, he says thenext thing we're gonna do is
staffing.
So the first version of 1700 wasa staffing standard, and that
got derailed by the volunteers.
And that was a political thingbetween the volunteers and the

(01:00:12):
union.
And they said, you're not gonnamake those two, the two guys who
are responsible for that, theysaid they're never gonna like
each other.
So that that's as long as thosetwo are the principal, you're
not gonna get a standard.
So they took them out and theyrecast it, and now it's two
standards and one's tactics,one's staffing.
Yeah, I mean, so it is what itis, but it's all still there,

(01:00:34):
and it all so and people knowwe're gonna go to three-person
or two-person AMBO staffing.
You think, no, the standard doesnot call for that.
So, and really, when theauthority having jurisdiction
does that, they exposethemselves to great liability.
So if you have the resourceswhere that hurts you, that
change, and you can process thatthrough a court, you will the

(01:00:56):
last time that happened, theywon over 30 million bucks in the
thing over not doing incidentcommand correctly at the scene.
That's exactly where that moneycame from.
Is we're gonna do it the way wesaid.
And you no, you're not becauseyou're not really doing it.
I mean, you're not doinganything.
What you're doing is you'remaking a it's it's it's it's
like uniform cosplay.

(01:01:16):
They're they're really notserious about it.

SPEAKER_00 (01:01:19):
So let's get to to where we are today.
Okay.
The release of the new FireCommand third edition.
How all these pieces and parts,the standards, second edition,
blue card, what else is inthere?
What else, what else was in thepot to make the new stew?

(01:01:40):
With the third edition?

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:41):
Yes.
Well, the third edition is justthe next itineration.
And so the second edition cameout in 2002, and then command
safety came out in 2004.
So it's been 22 years sincewe've done anything with it to
update it.
And really, like the firstedition had seven functions of

(01:02:05):
command, and they're still inthe the third edition.
The same.
So now we've reorganized them alittle bit and called them a
little different here and here,but they're the same basic
functions.
And then deployment is thesecond edition function.
It was the fourth function ofcommand in the second edition.
It is now the first function ofcommand in the third edition,

(01:02:26):
because we took deployment fromjust being assigning people at
an incident to the entire systemthat you use to deliver service.
So it incorporates the entirefire department and then all the
aid agreements you have.
So, see, that's the other thinggoing on.
Is one of the things FEMA waslooking at is interoperability

(01:02:47):
and consolidating resources.
And I think that's a good thing.
Like, so I never understood.
Like, I worked in a in an areaand then the county, and we had,
let's say, 30 fire departments.
All 30 had the same exactpositions.
So they had a fire chief, theyhad assistant chiefs.
There was a fire department, hadone engine company.

(01:03:10):
It had a fire chief, an opschief, and a battalion chief.
So it had three shifts ofbattalion chiefs and had one
engine.
And you're like, this doesn'tmake any sense.
Why do you have all you need oneengine to protect this community
and everybody else around you?
In fact, it makes it harderbecause now this department

(01:03:34):
doesn't work with thisdepartment.
And you're like, I don't underwell, it's they're clubs,
they're fraternal organizations.
It's not a public safety thing.
Well, no, we won't run withthem.
Well, what if if their stationis the closest to part of your
customer base, they're gonna bethere, they're gonna get there
quicker.
They could save people.
I mean, we're first when secondscount, right?

(01:03:56):
That's what we advertise, but wedon't want those relationships
because it's somehowuncomfortable because we don't
like their uniform patch orJimmy did something a hundred
years ago that pissed off Johnnyor whatever it was.
So it just doesn't make a lot ofsense.
In fact, that's public safety,period.
I mean, it's like the oldEnglish model where you have
villages that are separate fromeverybody else.

(01:04:18):
I mean, it's so anyway.
I don't even know what we'retalking about, Vance.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:23):
Third edition, and in the way that deployment
really encapsulated the wholething, the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:29):
Well, and you're seeing that like in clay, where
the clay fire territory was inSt.
Joseph's County, and then St.
Joseph's consolidated dispatchcenters.
And they said, no, we're onlygonna do one dispatch center, so
we're gonna shut down four ofthem.
Yes.
And it because it doesn't makeany sense.
We don't, it's gonna work betterbecause we can we can move
companies, we can make sure thatthe and eliminate the

(01:04:51):
duplication of resources.
Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 (01:04:53):
They're all trying to do the same thing, but the
coordination is actually lessbecause of the time it takes to
transfer calls and getinformation back.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:00):
Yeah, it's the difference between mutual aid
and automatic aid.
The reason that we went thissystem works here in this county
because the the Phoenix DispatchCenter.
In fact, that's the glue thatholds it together.
Is there's been people that havecome in over the last 50 years
here, that they're gonna be thefire chief in some small western

(01:05:21):
city that that's part of thecounty.
And they get there and they'reone of these ops dudes.
It's no, I'm doing ops.
I'm the ops guy.
It's a bullshit thing they say.
It's just, I'm not gonna doanything.
It's whatever I say goes, iswhat it is.
And I don't want to do this, andI don't want Phoenix dispatch.
I'm not gonna be part of thisconsortium anymore.

(01:05:41):
So, what that means is they gotto build their own dispatch
center.
So this new smarter fire chiefgoes to the city and says, I
don't want to be part of this,and this is what it's doing.
And so he gives all thenegatives and they don't pay any
attention.
They're like, okay, what do youwant to do?
Well, we need our own and blah,blah, blah.
And he says this and this.
Nothing about what it's gonnacost.

(01:06:01):
They say, well, yeah.
They don't approve it, don'tdeny it.
They just kind of shrug and hegoes to the next thing.
He comes back a month or twolater, and he's got a package of
building a new dispatch center.
Probably named after himself,you know.
Give him a peace prize and builda dispatch center for him.

(01:06:22):
And he goes to the city.
And they're like, the authorityhaving jurisdiction.
What's this?
And he says, Well, last month Itold you we want to drop out of
this consortia because they tellus what to do, and nobody can
tell us what to do becausenobody knows like I do.
So I need my own dispatch centerso we can dispatch 911 calls for
our community.
And then what we could do isgrow that, and then they can

(01:06:45):
belong to our dispatch centerand we can charge for it and
make money.
Oh, okay.
Well, what's this cost?
Oh, that's uh$31 million.
And they said, uh, we'd like youto meet Leo.
He's the security guard, andhe's gonna escort you back to
your desk so you can get yourpersonal items.
He he's going to remove youremail and your access to it, and
you're fired.

(01:07:05):
Thank you for your service.
And that's exactly whathappened.
Wow.
Is he was gone within a day ortwo.
They were finished.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:13):
So Well, it there's people who empire build or they
want to empire build their ownlittle banana republic.
And we see that all over thecountry.
Little banana republics thatdon't talk to each other.
There's no consol.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:24):
I don't want to consolidate at all.
Yeah, you can't muddy my DNAhere.
This is my thing.
So it is what it is.

SPEAKER_00 (01:07:31):
What what else is in Fire Command 3, then, the third
edition?
So we've got deployment upfront.
What what other changes are wegoing to have in the in the new
book?

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:40):
Well, the it starts with the the the evolution of
the system.
So basically the conversationyou and I just had, a lot of it
is that's this is how this ishow the thing got written, why
it got written, what it is,where it came from.
And then it kind of talks aboutthe the subsequent editions.
And then the intro also goesinto the differences in the

(01:08:01):
third edition.
The table of contents for thethird edition is it starts with
the evolution, then it goesthrough the eight functions of
command.
Deployments first, then you gotassume confirm position, size
up, communications, strategy,and incident action planning,
organization, review andrevision, and then continue,

(01:08:28):
transfer, escalate, terminate.
So we move transfer back, butit's and you could we could redo
it and move it back to or itjust doesn't, it it goes where
it goes.
Right?
So then the next the nine thethere are eight functions.
The ninth chapter is a safetychapter you just reviewed, and

(01:08:51):
that's the safety effect ofusing the system, and then the
safety requirements that kind ofoccur with each of the three
levels the strategic, tactical,and task, and kind of the the
the safety system that they usejust as a day-to-day thing.
And really, kind of the but oneof the key pieces of that safety
chapter is we compare structuralfirefighting to skydiving and

(01:09:15):
scuba diving as far as the riskis involved in it, and really
the way you manage the safety.
Because those other occupations,skydiving, scuba diving, there's
not a safety officer.
There's a jump master or a divemaster.
And so before you go out theplane, they have their thing.
And then before you gounderwater, they have their
thing.
But once you break the surfaceand you're into the new hazard,

(01:09:38):
there ain't no safety officerstanding there waiting to save
your ass.
It's if you can't save your ass,you're probably gonna die,
basically, in those endeavors.
So that's really kind of thesafety piece of it.
And I think that speaks to acouple things.
The first is it's a that's whyit's so exciting and it draws
the kind of people into ouroccupation because you get to

(01:09:59):
have a a thrill every now andthen in a non-office setting,
let's say it's outside it's goodfun outside work.
Good clean fun.
Exactly.
Uh-huh.
And then the other piece is justwhen you operate within that
system, is that is how youmanage a lot of your safety in a
very real way.
And see, and it goes against theidea, like you still see safety

(01:10:23):
officers.
Is there the solution tofirefighters being injured and
killed on the fire ground?
That's late stage, man.
It's it's strategic, tactical,and task.
And then we embed safety, thetraditional safety officer on
the tactical level.
So they're reporting, the safetyofficer reports to the division
tactical boss.

(01:10:44):
That's who they're working for.
We can open a channel in thecommand van, a safety channel on
a safety section to do likehigher-end accountability for
like extended offensiveoperations where you got
division bosses.
And so the IC's not getting thework cycles for the divisions or
attack positions like they werebefore because they're being
managed by tactical bosses.

(01:11:05):
So you can open up a safetychannel, and then the safety
officers can communicate backinto the command post with like
roll calls of where everybodyis.
So the old par system and rollcalls, we don't do anymore
because it's you're always youalways have a par, basically, is
the way the third edition looksat it, where maybe the first and

(01:11:25):
second edition is it's somethingthe IC had to make sure and
verify.
And it was a reminder for thetask level bosses that hey,
where's all my folks?

SPEAKER_00 (01:11:34):
Yeah.
Or maybe every 10 minutes,though.
I mean, it wasn't a continuousthing.
It was like 10 minutes goes byand you lose Billy, you know.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:42):
Yeah.
But when you look at the thirdedition and the way the system
is, is if in that 10 minutes,you're gonna get a can report
somewhere, and you're gonna whenyou come in, you know you got a
par.
When you leave, you got a par.
So that's really the key is whenI'm leaving the hazard zone, I
report my par.
And that's I check them offthat.
So I know I got a par in thisboom, boom, boom.

(01:12:02):
So anyway.
So it's kind of the value of thecommand system and just managing
your safety moment to moment.
The safest incidents I everoperated on as a firefighter is
an officer.
There were no safety officers.
It was all managed by thebosses.
We put the fire out, we therewere hazards, you had energized

(01:12:23):
fences that would have blownyour arm off had you touched
them, all kinds of things.
But you just when you train yourpeople to operate, that's that's
kind of so that's what you trainthem to do, essentially.

SPEAKER_00 (01:12:36):
How much influenced did the the evolution of both
science?
Because I know, like in the uhearly 2000s, I think it was
2000, you guys were burningbuildings with NIST and Phoenix
and with thermal couples andreally looking at the science.
Yeah, no one had done thatbefore.
And then FSRI through UL keptdoing that.
So, how much with all that newinformation through UL, FSRI,

(01:13:00):
new NFPA standards, how much ofthat has influenced the the new
book?

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:05):
A lot.
See, like when you go back tothe first two editions of Fire
Command, you had offensive anddefensive strategy.
I was raised in a system wherewhen you were in the offensive
strategy, you did not do outsidewater application.
And that was the deal.
If you did that, you were a thatwas a coward's way to do things.

(01:13:26):
We did not do that.
And in fact, if you did thatenough, they'd probably fire
your ass.
They say you can't be a windowshooter.
So we were taught to attack itwith great vim and vigor.
So if it was offensive, you weregetting after it.
And so, and these were thingsthat you figured out pretty
early, like you know if you'rewinning or not.
Uh, I can tell you with in thefirst 10, 12 breaths, once we

(01:13:48):
engage, okay, this is it's outor it's not gonna go out or
whatever it is.
Well, like you said, with allthe tests that have been done
subsequently, they have shownthat exterior water application
is far superior to what we weredoing, right?
Is you knock the energy out ofit before you ever go in, you're

(01:14:10):
going in standing up now, andyou are moving straight to it.
You're putting water and it'sover that much faster.
So, our approach, you couldknock a fire down in 10 units
basically of time.
With today's tactics, we'd bedoing that in five to seven.
So it's it's the theeffectiveness of your initial
operation of uh removing thehazards, basically.

(01:14:34):
We're the fire department.
We should call uh when they callthe fire department, we should
show up and put the fire out.
That's why they called us.
They didn't call us to to to cuta hole in the roof.
Now, sometimes we'll do allthese things in effort to put
the fire out.
But it's gotta be a lot ofpeople think it's the opposite.
No, we do these other things sothe fire goes out.
No, we put water on it so thefire goes out.

(01:14:56):
That's what puts the fire out.
Nothing else does.
Or it smothers itself andthere's no oxygen.
So it's one of those two things,or it runs out of fuel.
Those are the three things.
So there you go.
The third edition, we say thatif you're a strategic level
person, you should have anexpert understanding of
task-level structuralfirefighting and its

(01:15:20):
capabilities and limitations,basically.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:22):
So this is truly a textbook, though.
Yeah, it's a textbook.
It's a textbook.

SPEAKER_01 (01:15:26):
It is a textbook, it is more on how than the last
ones were.
I mean, it it's we've it and theother thing this has is the
first the second edition wasdone in the early 2000s, is we
got 20 some odd more years ofexperience.
So that that's a huge, like Isaid before, a huge piece of it
is tactical level supervision.

(01:15:48):
It's it just you assign a chiefto run a sector division now, is
what it is.

SPEAKER_00 (01:15:54):
And this is all stuff that's worked with 70,000
incident commanders and over4,500 fire departments over the
last 18 years since Blue Cardstarted.
So yeah, there's still peoplesigning up for Blue Card.

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:06):
I mean, it's it's not going away, it's not going
to.
We're gonna keep doing whatwe're doing because it works,
and it's just yeah, it's a smallit's a much smarter way to
manage your business, is becauseyou're actually managing it now.

SPEAKER_00 (01:16:18):
So is there anything else you want to talk about with
the third edition that folksshould know about before they
hit the order button?

SPEAKER_01 (01:16:26):
There's also like we got the safety chapter in this
chapter nine, and then it endschapter well, but chapter ten is
a Mayday chapter, so it'smanaging Maydays.
So, and that's kind of that'swhere blue card's really kind of
taken off and gone.
Is we're a system where whenyou're blue card is designed in

(01:16:47):
a way that if there's a Maydayin the middle of an incident
operation, you don't have tochange anything or add anything.
You have done a set of thingsthat have put you in a position
where you can always manage aMayday, is really the strength
of the system.
So and so we put that in theback and say this is the way
Mayday looks.
And then we do it whether it'sthe IC has all those task-level

(01:17:11):
companies reporting to them.
That's one algorithm we do.
And then the other is when youhave a tactical level boss
running the attack positionwhere there's a Mayday occurring
and how that looks.
And we even do a piece of likeif you're uh the mobile IC and
you're the only officer there,basically.
I mean, as at least in theincident organization, and you

(01:17:32):
got a May Day, you got it.
I I don't know what else to do.
You can't pass command, youcan't get rid of being command.
I guess if the Mayday kills youand you're the IC, then we're
gonna have to do something.
But really, just by takingcommand and sizing up and and
and processing all that througha strategic decision-making

(01:17:54):
model is that's going toeliminate 99% of the Maydays
that would have happened andkeep them from happening.
So, I mean, it's the very thethe system, you don't get a lot
of maydays with the first enginegetting there, doing blue card.
They did like I've figured outwhere we need to go, where the
hazards are, and what we'regonna do.
So, and then the very last thingin the book is a glossary.

(01:18:17):
So we put a in fact, I talked toGerrit about that today, and she
says, Yeah, we probably need toadd some more to that.
And I thought, well, yeah, it'sa living glossary.
So we're gonna have the glossthe glossary is gonna be done in
the book here in another week ortwo.
There, we're not gonna addanything to it because it's
printed then.
So what we're doing is we'retaking that glossary and we're
gonna put it on our website.
And so the glossary will alwaysbe alive.

(01:18:39):
So if there's more terms youwant added, so the most recent
glossary will be on our website.
Yeah.
Yeah, after I think six months,a year, we get, I don't know,
half a dozen comments, add theseterms, da-da-da-da-da.
And then we'll do like we'lljust notify them through the
book slip.
Hey, the new glossary isupdated.
Boom, boom, boom.

SPEAKER_00 (01:18:57):
So we'll be at FDIC.
If you're listening to thiseither the week of or week
before of FDIC, we'll be therein the Hoosier Corridor, booth
number one three zero one one.
Come by, Nick's gonna be there.
We're gonna have a special onthe book,$25 off.
You just get the promo code fromus, and we're not gonna give it

(01:19:19):
on the podcast because it's alimited time promo code only
during FDIC.
But this offer will be extendedto everybody.
You just don't have to be atFDIC to get the$25 off.
So we'll we'll extend that toeveryone during the week of
FDIC.
So that'll be out on our socialmedia and our website.
But uh, we invite you to come bythe booth.
I mean, you'll be there.

(01:19:39):
We'll we'll have cards so youcan order it and and and get on
the list, and then in May it'llship to you, right?

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:45):
Yeah.
Yes.
The book takes about they saidtwo to three weeks print
turnaround time.
From the time the printingstarts, the time it ends up with
us.
So we figured that by the end ofMay, we'll be sending them uh
the first initial orders out ofthe thing.
That's that's our plan at least.

SPEAKER_00 (01:20:02):
Well, we've got a lot of people asking about it
already and folks who aren'tgonna be at FDIC.
So we just wanted to.
Yeah, this isn't an FDIC onlydeal, they're just we're rolling
it out at FDIC.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:11):
But FDIC starts Wednesday.
Yeah.
So from Wednesday to Saturday.
Yes.
So next week, Wednesday toSaturday, if you go to b
shifter.com and you get into thestore and order the book, you'll
get it for 25 bucks off.
25 bucks off.
Yeah.
So and the price of the book's150 is what we put it at.
Which is typical for a textbook.
Oh, it's half of what a textbookcosts.

(01:20:33):
Yeah, yeah.
No, so we do it's yeah.
Yeah, you can I think we sellthe first edition for 135 bucks
on the website.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it's only 15 bucks more.
Yeah.
And it's brand new.
So it's no, I think it it'sgood.
It really, I think it supportsthe it's a good next edition

(01:20:54):
after the second.
I think it's it's got a lot ofart in it.
It uses some of the same artfrom the second, but it's got a
ton of brand new, especially inthe back of it.
And and a lot of it is it itillustrates how this works and
what it looks like through kindof the different phases of an
incident operation.
So it's it's a little it's alittle more directions than the
last couple have been, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:16):
Get your learning on.
That's great.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:18):
So I mean, but but I mean, that's what you would
expect from a bunch of Bshifters that have been doing
blue card now for the last 20years or whatever the hell it's
been.
So yeah.
But if you look at advance, likeall the workshops we do today,
all of it's based off the firecommand book.
Uh I mean, that's where all thiscame from.

SPEAKER_00 (01:21:34):
So and I think we continue to learn from you know,
not just the Tarver incident,but there's a lot of other
NIOSHAs.
Oh, there's a ton of cards.
There's other there's a lot ofroad rash that other people got
that we don't want you to get.
Yeah.
And that's why we pass thisinformation on to you.
And I think the Fire Command 3anchors all of that.
That's the foundation.

SPEAKER_01 (01:21:55):
No, it really does.
And I mean, it's true to thefirst edition, and I think it uh
I think it kind of improves onthat.
That's what it's supposed to do.
It's supposed to evolve and geta little bit better.
And it does.
I I I think it's I think itallows us to be more effective
and even safer.
So I think you get quickerresults using the new tactics
that we've been screwing aroundwith here for the last like you

(01:22:18):
said, 2000, but DanMadrikowski's been doing this in
the 90s.
We were hanging out with him.
So I mean, it's 30, 40 years oflooking at this stuff.
And it's a yeah.
And then when you marry that tolike the Shane Rays of the world
and what's going on in bigboxes, and then all that gets
cooked back into the program.
So it's it's best standardpractices.

(01:22:41):
And I don't know.
I I think most of us want to goand do well at those types of
events and not end up killingourselves and and having a good
outcome of the thing.
Nobody wants to burn down amillion and a half square foot
warehouse.
I mean, there's no reason weshould.
Unless somebody turns everythingoff and torches it, and that's

(01:23:01):
gonna burn down.
But I mean, shit, that's what wewere.
We had to run what was therewhen we got there.
We we can't unburn thatbuilding.
So that that's what happenedbefore we got, we ain't taking
responsibility for.
Okay, let's do a timelesstactical truth before we go.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:24):
Timeless tactical truth from Alan Brunacini.
That book is available for 10bucks at bshifter.com.
And this week's is it'sdifficult and painful to attempt
to manage something you aretrying to save yourself from.
Yeah.
That's an appropriate one for uhwe always have appropriate ones,
but we're gonna help you manageit.

(01:23:45):
I mean, we we want to givepeople the tools to to help them
manage these incidents and andto keep their people safe.

SPEAKER_01 (01:23:52):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:23:53):
And that we're not running from it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:23:54):
Well, and it's a comprehensive system.
So I mean it's got there'sdifferent layers and parts and
elements that you have toimplement during the course of
an incident to be able to youutilize those things you put in
place.
And if you don't, then it's notit's not there.
You can't do it.
So if the IC doesn't assignpeople with a order that's a

(01:24:17):
task location and objective, Imean, how can you control the
position and function ofsomebody?
So that's like you say, that'sthat's what the system's for.
Is is and really when you use itand you get and that's I think
why people keep coming back toit is I can do this job, I use
fewer resources and we get itdone quicker with with less

(01:24:39):
exposure to our people.
So I mean that's a kind of a hugand a kiss.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:43):
Nick, thanks, man.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:44):
JV combo.
It's it's been yeah, it'sanother well.

SPEAKER_00 (01:24:48):
I appreciate the history, and as always, I
learned I've learned sittinghere, and and it's up.
I always I always feel like I'man Elliot Mince kind of person
where I'm trying to archive thisstuff and understand it all.
But you know, he was uh JohnLennon's biographer.

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:02):
Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:06):
I did not know that so but but then I always learned
something else too.
So it's I I I I love it.
It's something that has impactedevery organization I've been
part of and continues to, and Ithink this uh third edition is
going to propel that evenfurther.

SPEAKER_01 (01:25:21):
Well, I think that's that's the joy of getting to be
us, is we get to take the ourcrazy old man Big Toe, and his
with the stuff he created andkeep that current and uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (01:25:34):
The legacy lives on.

SPEAKER_01 (01:25:36):
Well, on his death, a lot of people said that he's
responsible, like the architectof the modern service.
That a lot of it came out of thefirst edition of that book, and
then the standards that get donebehind it.
Minimum staffing is a piece ofthat.
I mean, so there's a lot ofthings there.
And I think it still serves usvery well.
Better than not using it,certainly.

(01:25:56):
I think you can justify when youunderstand your work, you can
explain it to people better andwhat you need and and why you
need those things.

SPEAKER_00 (01:26:06):
So well, come by and see us at FDIC, everyone.
Would love to see you there.
If not, we'll connect you withyou otherwise.
And of course, we'll be hereevery week with the B Shifter
Podcast.
Thanks for listening.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

iHeartRadio 24/7 News: The Latest

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Fire Command, 3rd Edition

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

iHeartRadio 24/7 News: The Latest

All Episodes

Fire Command, 3rd Edition

Stuff You Should Know