August 19, 2025 • 54 mins
#186: The hardest truth to face is that sometimes you can love someone deeply and still be enabling them. In this powerful conversation, Meenu (life coach and host of Transcend Into Wellness podcast) and I explore that fine line where helping crosses into hurting.
We all want to support those we care about, but when does that support become sabotage? When are we actually preventing someone from growing through their struggles? Through personal stories and professional insights, we unpack the psychology behind enabling behaviors—whether with family members struggling with responsibility, friends caught in toxic patterns, or partners dealing with addiction.
The conversation delves into several uncomfortable truths: many enablers are actually helping themselves feel better rather than truly serving the other person; hitting rock bottom is often necessary for genuine change; and sometimes walking away is the most loving action you can take. Meenu shares powerful coaching perspectives on how to set compassionate boundaries without carrying guilt, and how to recognize when you're being manipulated versus when someone genuinely needs support.
"Behavior is a language," Meenu reminds us, highlighting that patterns reveal more than promises ever could. Together, we explore practical ways to support without creating dependency, how to navigate family dynamics when one person wants to enable while another doesn't, and the emotional cost to those who take on the "savior" role.
Whether you're struggling with a loved one who can't seem to break destructive cycles or questioning your own tendency to rescue others, this episode offers both compassion and clarity. Listen, reflect, and consider: are you helping someone grow, or just helping them stay exactly where they are?
You can now send us a text to ask a question or review the show. We would love to hear from you!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Johnna (00:00):
What is up everyone?
Welcome back to another episodeof the Babbles Nonsense podcast
.
And today we are joined byMeenu, who is a life coach and
host of the Transcend IntoWellness podcast.
And today we are talking aboutenabling.
So when does helping turn intohurting?
When does support becomesabotage?
And how do you know if you'resaving someone or just saving
them from themselves?
(00:21):
Today we are talking about oneof the hardest truths to face.
You can love someone and stillbe enabling them.
Whether it's addiction, toxicpatterns or emotional chaos.
Some people don't change untilthey hit their own kind of rock
bottom.
So where is that line betweencompassion and codependency?
How do you let go withoutcarrying guilt?
And is walking away sometimesthe most loving thing you can do
?
Again, to help me unpack all ofthis, I'm joined by Min Yu, who
(00:45):
is a life coach and the host ofthe Transcend Into Wellness
podcast.
She brings the receipts, theinsight and the real talk that
you didn't even know you needed.
But before we dive in, a quicknote this conversation is not to
substitute therapy, treatmentor professional help.
All right guys, let's get intoit.
All right guys, welcome back.
(01:28):
Me and Meenu are back togethertoday.
Meenu (01:31):
And welcome back guys.
We're so pumped into Babbel'sNonsense and Transcend into
Wellness.
I have not been here, Jonna,for three weeks now, so you've
inspired me to do anotherepisode.
Johnna (01:43):
It's been a while.
I know I reached out to you nottoo long ago about this episode
.
Um, that we're gonna do todayand you're like I'm in
hibernation mode.
I was like you know, I probablyneed to do one of those.
That sounds very nice.
That's what I need to do but Iwanted to talk.
I wanted to talk to you becauseI couldn't do this alone,
because mostly about a topiclike where we enable people
(02:08):
versus like helping them,because I know and especially in
this could be anybody rightthis can be family, this can be
platonic relationships, romanticrelationships.
I see it more in a familydynamic and that's kind of like
where I was thinking about thisfrom like I had been talking to
friends and things had beengoing on in their life and I was
like, yeah, I've had thatsituation in my life too.
(02:30):
And I was like this would be areally good podcast topic
because I feel like probably alot of people kind of don't know
where that line ends ofenabling them to get better and
change their ways, versus likedo we help?
Meenu (02:49):
like do we help?
Yeah, yeah, that's a reallyvery effective topic.
I also think that it applies inso many areas and you're saying
that you know family dynamicsAbsolutely.
I've also seen that happen infriendships.
I've seen it happen inrelationships, like one of my
close friends was recentlydating somebody and it almost
seemed like she had to be histherapist.
So you know she has to be likeI got to stop, you know helping
(03:09):
you and do me, and this is whereI draw the line.
So it's like having boundarieswhen you are in these situations
.
So I've seen it happen inseveral dynamics and I think
it's really important to talkabout.
Johnna (03:21):
Yeah, and I know that, like when I looked up statistics
for this, like it pulled up alot more with, like substance
abuse, because that's where wesee it the most Like we see a
lot like when, like, of course,me working in the ER, like I had
families ask me like well, whatdo I do?
Because I don't want to give upon them, because I don't want
them to hurt themselves, andthings like that.
So we see it more, whether itbe alcohol, drugs, whatever.
But I personally saw it in myfamily and it wasn't with drug
(03:44):
abuse or any substance abuse, itwas more so um, a sibling that
really didn't have her stufftogether and my mom would always
like pay her rent or pay hercar payment, and then it was
like she's never gonna learn todo that if you don't do it.
But then, at the the same time,I understand from her
(04:05):
perspective, she's like, butthat's my child and so where is
drawing that line?
So that's kind of what I wantedto get into, yeah.
Meenu (04:13):
And it's so funny.
You say that.
I just listened to a podcastand I don't know if you know Dr
John Deloney is a familytherapist.
He's written multiple books onanxiety.
He's a specialist in terms ofrelationships and managing
family dynamics and stuff, andhe said that he read it in a
book like literally on the frontpage, that the greatest gifts
(04:36):
parents can give their childrenare problems.
Really, yeah, and you wouldthink it's the other way.
You would think, oh my God, Ineed to coddle, I need to
protect, I need to prevent themfrom having any negative
experiences, from getting hurt,but unfortunately that will just
tamper with their growth andthat will sabotage their
(04:59):
self-worth.
I mean, it makes sense earth,because they are never yeah,
they're never figuring anythingout Like.
I can give you an example aboutmyself.
My dad pretty much spoiled me,you know, when he raised me Like
.
So I had to learn a lot of hardlessons once I left home, when
I was 17 and a half and I livedin a country where I didn't know
(05:20):
anyone.
I made friends that I've neverseen before in my life.
I had to navigate throughschool, study things that I
didn't like, live in places thatweren't great.
I was at rock bottom because Ihad not seen troubles that much
when I was younger than that.
So I underwent and experiencedthe spectrum of the troubles so
(05:41):
much all the way back from whenI was 17 to 22.
And then, of course, later inmy 30s, once I got divorced and
started restarted my businesslike that so it and I would
never take a single trouble awayLike, yeah, I complained, yeah,
it was hard, but would I changeanything?
No, everything taught me somuch, it gave me so much grit,
(06:01):
it gave me so much strength.
I can never get that fromreading a book.
Johnna (06:10):
No, yeah, like I.
Similar story.
I mean we, we grew up polaropposites, like I felt like my
parents were more focused on mysister because she was in and
out of trouble a lot, so I gotignored a lot, which we've
talked about on other episodes,and so like, for a long time I
held all this anger inside of mebecause I was like you're still
my mother, you still shouldhave cared, you still, and like
not saying she didn't carebecause she cared in her own way
.
But that was not the focus atthat time.
(06:31):
But, looking back on it, likeI'm so proud of how independent
I am and I can do things bymyself and I'm financially
secure and I know how to balancea checkbook and I know how to
pay my bills.
And like, looking back on it,like me having to do that at
such an early age and so young,like I probably wouldn't have
done that because me and mysister have talked since then,
and she was like I feel like,because mom was always helping
(06:54):
me, I didn't learn those things.
She was like when did you learnthose things?
I was like Lindsay, like welived in the same house, what
are you talking about?
And she was like, but I don'tfeel like I got that same
education because of thecoddling to her, because of her
being in trouble and so like nowthat you say that like yeah, it
took me a long time to realizethat, like I'm appreciative, but
(07:16):
also it still sucks right so no, absolutely, it really, really
really sucks.
Meenu (07:22):
but I've started reframing the suck, like how do
I?
Johnna (07:25):
say it Because I'm a life coach.
Meenu (07:26):
I have to reframe everything.
When I feel sucky, when I feelthis, it's like what is it
training me to be?
What is it teaching me in thismoment?
It's difficult, clearly,because I've not done this
before, but what is it also likestretching?
How is it stretching me to be abetter person?
Right, I mean, how is thisgoing to be beneficial later on?
Like, for example, because I'velived in so many countries, you
can practically throw meanywhere and I'll survive.
(07:49):
Yeah, because I've lived inAmerica, I've lived in Mexico,
I've lived in India, I've livedin Singapore.
Like, I don't say this lightly.
It came with a lot of trial anderror, making mistakes, not
having friends, periods ofloneliness and isolation and
then finding community and then,immediately after finding
community, moving somewhere else.
(08:09):
It came with a lot of lessons.
But I'm also here and I'm alsoat this capacity where I feel
like I've learned so much atthis age because I've had those
hard experiences.
Johnna (08:21):
Yeah, I agree, I agree.
So kind of I want to ask yousome questions, since you kind
of deal with this when you'recoaching clients, so you, you
kind of know how to navigate it.
Meenu (08:30):
So that's why I didn't want to do it by myself.
Johnna (08:33):
So, how can we define that quote unquote rock bottom
in more objective orindividualized terms, or like
should that matter?
Should we?
Should we say rock bottom?
Should we think of it in thosenegative terms?
Does that make sense?
Meenu (08:46):
what I'm asking oh, 1000% .
And the interesting part aboutrock bottom is it's very
subjective to each person,depending on their experiences.
Like my rock bottom may not beyour rock bottom.
Your rock bottom may not be myrock, I'd be like I'd probably
think why is Jonna so upsetabout this?
It won't make sense, it won'tclick.
But each person still feelingthat amount of pain where they
(09:11):
can't go nowhere, but theyreally hit that place, I think
that itself is enough for it tobe classified as rock bottom
Right.
And I am a person who don't.
I don't believe in fluffingeverything to positivity.
I don't believe in fluffingeverything to positivity.
I don't believe in changingnegative terms to positive terms
.
It is what it is.
It fucking sucks, it's painful,it's rock bottom.
Rock bottom is rock bottom,right.
(09:32):
Yeah.
So even when my clients facethe rock bottomness, I will say
I want you to say that.
I want you to verbally, justsay it like loudly, say I have
hit rock bottom, because it'salmost like going to AA and
saying I'm an alcoholic.
Yeah, it's to accept whereyou're at, completely feel the
(09:53):
suck of that situation, feel thehurt which will, which is what
will actually provoke you to belike I don't really want to be
here anymore, right, and I havenowhere to go but up.
Johnna (10:07):
And that's the client.
So what, what do you say to andI know you're not coaching the
family members and stuff.
So, like, you just brought up agreat example like alcoholics
have to admit that they're inthat position in the first place
.
But then you also have Al-Anon,which is for family members and
friends of alcoholics, whereyou have to also learn to
support an alcoholic.
So if it's not, if it's notsubstance abuse or it is
(10:30):
substance abuse whichever, like,how do you as the family or the
friend, know when to let themdig themselves out of their own
grave versus?
I'll give you a good example.
So my brother, he used to be inand out of jail a lot and he
would always get bailed out,whether that be by family
members or friends or whatever.
(10:51):
And my theory and maybe I'mwrong, this is just a question
Sometimes I think he should havejust sat there and had to think
about what he did and why hegot there and maybe he wouldn't
keep going back.
But again, I know everyone's,like you said, everyone's
different in their thoughtprocesses.
But that was my thought process.
I was like why don't y'all justlet him sit, sit there?
And of course, when I talked toother family members they're
(11:11):
like.
Because that's my, that's myfamily, I'm not going to do that
.
Meenu (11:16):
You know that's also.
I hate to say this.
This is also very subjective,because I'll give you an example
.
I have a three strike systemwith people, with friends, with
lovers.
Three strike system.
You do me wrong three times.
You're out, yeah, right.
Some people will be like, whydo you have a three strike?
Like they should be out thefirst time.
What are you talking?
(11:37):
Like, don't you have boundaries?
Like why would you do that?
Some people will say, no, theirfamily, it's endless.
What do you mean?
There are three strikes, right.
So I think it really depends onyour personal values and where
you draw that line and the whatgrace would you give yourself?
So that is what I would ask you.
Right, if you were facing thatsituation and if you wanted
(11:58):
somebody else to give you grace,what would you expect from them
?
And that is something that youcan do after, upon reflection,
to see if that still feels goodfor you right.
I will say after they're 21,they're pretty much adults.
Yeah, sit them down, we cantalk to them, we can even be so
(12:18):
kind to like pay for their rehabonce or pay for a few therapy
sessions out of love andkindness.
You don't have to do it out oflove and kindness, but even in
coaching, even in therapy andyou know this, jonah, I know
this, I've said it in countlesspodcasts you have to want a
different outcome.
Johnna (12:34):
Right, and I guess that's because maybe because
I've been through the coachingand been through the therapy
that I know that's what I'vebeen told and I know my family
member has not been through thecoaching and therapy.
So like we have obviously verydifferent mindsets when it comes
to like I don't know, I guess,like I don't know how he's going
to learn any different if hekeeps getting bailed out of
(12:56):
every situation.
I'm sure he doesn't feel likehe's been bailed out of every
situation.
Like you said, it's allsubjective and you know this is
my perspective and then he hashis perspective and everything
like that.
And I love him dearly, don'tget me wrong.
It's just like when is enoughenough for you?
When do you want to stop livingthis life?
And I know we can't want thatfor them and it's just, it just
(13:18):
baffles me.
And it's not just like.
I talked to a coworker and sheyou know she was talking to me
about the similar thing.
She was like similar thinggoing on in her family, like she
has finally like put her footdown, like I'm no longer helping
this family member because theywon't help themselves, but then
her mom turns around and doesit.
So she's like like I'm tryingto teach him a lesson to grow up
(13:38):
, but if you're going to gobehind my back and just help him
anyways, then how's he going tolearn?
Meenu (13:44):
back and just help him anyways, then how's he going to
learn?
Right?
And this is that's so crazy,because I read this in a book
whatever you're talking about inthis book called Power
Manifesting, where the author,the book is about manifestation,
but he also talks about thisparticular thing and he says
when you constantly help peopleout of their misery or out of
their suffering, you are Ainterfering with their karma,
(14:04):
meaning they have certain karmathat they need to fulfill and
undergo in this lifetime tolearn their lessons.
Whether you believe it or not,I'm not going to go into that,
right?
The second reason is also, youare sabotaging their journey of
them hitting rock bottom andthen wanting to get up, but what
you're doing is they're on theway there and you're pulling
(14:25):
them up so they never reallyknow what rock bottom is.
And because they never reallyknow what rock bottom is, they
don't want a different outcome.
Right?
Honestly, I hate to say thisthey don't have enough pain,
right, they haven't sufferedenough.
There has to be some catalystto change it.
Either has to be enough pain,enough suffering, or like there
(14:50):
has to be some desperation,almost Not in an unhealthy way,
but like you should have aburning desire to say this is it
Like?
I'm done being a victim?
I'm done, you know, throwingpity parties.
I'm done asking for help.
I'm a grown-ass man.
I'm done throwing pity parties.
I'm done asking for help.
I'm a grown-ass man.
I'm a grown-ass woman.
I need to figure this shit outby myself, right?
(15:10):
And if you don't hit rockbottom, you may never have that
feeling.
Johnna (15:15):
And guys, I just want to throw a caveat.
We're not talking about ifsomeone's coming to you and
they're saying they're suicidalor homicidal or anything like
that.
Obviously, don't ignore someonewhen they're saying that to you
, because you never know ifsomeone's being real or if
they're not, so you always takethat as a serious threat.
We're talking about like thingswe were just talking about,
whether that be in and out ofjail.
You know can't pay your bills,like when is that kind of thing
(15:36):
enough, enough.
We're not talking about mentalhealth issues at this point
right, I'm really glad you saidthat which just came into into
my head because, you know,working in the ER I was like, oh
wait, we should probably throwthat caveat in there.
We're not because, you know,and I get it People are like, oh
, like.
I've even heard people say thatwhen someone comes up to them
and they're like, hey, they'resuicidal or and they'll be like
I don't believe them.
(15:57):
Well, we should always believesomeone when they're saying that
, because you just never knowwhen someone you just never know
Like, even if you're like theywould never do that to
themselves, you just never know,because depression is real and
you just never know when it maybe a real thing or a situation.
Meenu (16:11):
No, absolutely, I totally agree.
I feel like when somebody comesto you and asks for help,
that's an invitation to fullyparticipate and listen to their
story and see how you can be ofservice.
I've also had experiences whereI've helped them when they've
not asked and it's not receivedwell.
So I would still say, when itcomes to, again, minor
(16:33):
situations like I wouldn't sayminor, but not suicidal and
extreme situations, if they'renot coming to you and you're
constantly going and helpingthem, maybe you're doing that
because it's reallyuncomfortable for you.
Johnna (16:46):
It's kind of, if you think about it it's selfish,
right right it is, and I'm gladyou said that because, like
that's, I guess maybe that'swhat the piece I was missing or
hearing and just needed to hear,because sometimes I do feel
like it is.
You don't want to see them thatway.
Meenu (17:03):
And maybe it means something about you.
Oh, my son, my brother, myrelative, oh, it's a pride issue
.
I can't have that happen to myfamily, so I have to clean up
the mess before it gets worse.
Like you know, just make itabout pride and ego, not really
thinking about that person andwhether that's helping them,
helping them grow, helping thembetter themselves.
(17:24):
You're not really really there,right?
Johnna (17:27):
So how would you, as a coach, ethically weigh them
having autonomy versusprotection in that situation
where, like, maybe they'resitting in jail and the family
member keeps bailing them out,how would you tell the client
versus the family member, likethis is their autonomy versus
the family protecting them?
(17:47):
Yeah.
Meenu (17:48):
I think there's multiple layers to it.
For example, if the person thatwent to jail is my client, I
would fully, 100% ask them ifthey've learned their lesson.
What is the different behavior?
Because, remember, behavior isa language.
It doesn't matter if you keepsaying I want to change, I want
to be better.
I'm not going to do thatanymore.
(18:09):
Yeah, it sounds really greatand it's pleasing to the ears.
I'm not going to do thatanymore.
Yeah, it sounds really greatand it's pleasing to the ears,
but if your behavior is notdifferent, then you're not doing
anything different, right?
So if I were, if they were myclient, that's what I would say.
If behavior were a language,what would you be doing
differently from what you didbefore, and how would you hold
yourself accountable for that?
Or do you want me to hold youaccountable, or do you have
(18:30):
somebody else holding youaccountable for the different
actions you have to take?
But if the family members weremy clients, I would ask them
what exact, what is the exactreason why you keep bailing them
out?
Yeah, why do you feel like youneed to keep saving them?
Is it a you thing?
Is it a them thing?
Is it an ego thing?
(18:51):
Are you uncomfortable.
You're not able to sleep atnight thinking about it.
Then I'm so sorry that's a youproblem.
Take a pill, regulate yourself.
Don't meditate Like, yeah, sitin a salt cave.
Like don't take that upon, youknow, like unhealthy actions in
saving someone and having tosave your complex saying, oh,
I'm going to make it about me.
I'm this great person thatalways, like, pulls my nephew
(19:18):
out of the jail or pulls my sonout of the jail, like because
that's giving you a boost toyour ego and who you are.
Trust me, john, I've seen a lotof people do this Like they
legit have that superioritysavior, complex, hero, complex,
yeah, whoa.
It's like you can't even trustpeople that want to help you
anymore right, right, no, thatmakes perfect sense.
Johnna (19:34):
Like, going back to the example of my sister, like and
don't get me wrong, my sister isdoing so much better.
She's, you know, changed herwhole life around and she
finally did decide like she madethat decision.
She decided she made effortsand changes.
So I'm not taking that awayfrom her.
I'm talking about like this islike in high school and stuff so
years ago.
But my mom and me would talklater in life and her exact
(19:54):
words now and you're kind oftriggering my memory was because
I would always ask her like whydo you keep bailing her out?
Why do you keep like, let herhit that bottom to where she
wants to change?
And my mom's exact words were Ifeel like this is my fault,
because I feel like if I wouldhave been there more because I
feel like I work too much, if Iwould have been there more
because I feel like I work toomuch, if I would have been there
(20:14):
more, she wouldn't have actedlike that.
So I feel like this is my fault, so I feel like I have to fix
it.
Meenu (20:18):
Right, so now it's about her guilt and now it's about her
fixing her shame and not reallythinking is it of the greatest
and the highest service to thatperson?
Johnna (20:30):
Right.
So I'm glad you said that,because I didn't even think
about it like that.
But then, like thinking back onpast conversations, I was like
that completely makes sense.
Meenu (20:37):
A lot of people keep doing that.
Like if my client comes andtells me I keep saving this
person, I keep doing this, theykeep coming to me for advice, I
keep saving them, I keep.
I'm like the first thing I askthem is what do you get out of
it?
Johnna (20:49):
And first they'll be like I don't get anything out of
it I'm.
Meenu (20:52):
I'm just being there for them.
I said no, no, no, you'regetting something out of it.
It's either like an ego boost.
It's either you're thinkingthat you're a better, better
than them, which I'm not.
I'm not judging you.
I just want you to be honest inwhat you are really gaining
from constantly and continuallyneeding to be of service to
(21:13):
somebody else that needs to takeresponsibility, that needs to
grow up and take accountability.
Johnna (21:18):
Would you say this thought just came into my head.
Would you say that because Iwas just thinking about my
childhood trauma and how Ithrived in chaos and when things
were kind of like steady andnormal.
Sometimes I inserted myselfinto those things, not willingly
or knowingly, but maybesubconsciously going I need a
little chaos because it'sfeeling a little too safe over
(21:39):
here.
It's feeling.
Meenu (21:39):
It's almost feeling unfamiliar because that's your
familiar territory, even thoughyou don't like it and you don't
consciously seek it.
That's what you're used to.
So you unconsciously sometimesput yourself maybe in situations
, friend groups, scenarios wherethere's maybe some drama.
Maybe you need to fix something, because you were the fixer you
know, yeah, yeah, that makessense.
Johnna (21:59):
So what healing approaches would you say would
reinforce self-efficacy ratherthan dependence, especially in
long term?
Solutions for the client.
Meaning the one that is for forthe, the client, meaning the
one that is, um, constantlydoing things, not really bottom
people getting them out.
How would you if they decidedlike, okay, I need to change.
(22:21):
And they came to you and theywere like, how would you give it
?
What healing approaches wouldyou give them to say, let's make
you self-efficient versusself-dependent, where you feel
like, or yeah, dependent, notindependent, is it right?
Meenu (22:36):
I always get confused on independent.
I get where you're going withthis.
I want to take you a leveldeeper and give you another
answer.
The first thing I would askthem is why do you want to
change?
Because if you're doing it foryour mom, it's not going to
stick.
If you're doing it for yourlover, it's not going to stick.
If you're doing it for yourlover, it's not going to stick.
You're doing it for your kids.
Maybe, maybe it'll stick forsome more time, longer time than
(22:58):
the others, but it's not goingto stick, right.
So why are you doing it?
And unless they say I am sosick of my behavior, I'm so sick
of being this person, I'm doingit for me because I want change
.
Johnna (23:10):
Everything else it's just, it's all fluff, it's just
background noise for me, I lovethat you're triggering my memory
with everything you say, but goahead.
Meenu (23:19):
Until I hear those words, I have it in my consult form
actually for anybody that wantsto work with me.
I ask them on a scale of zeroto 10, what is the number that
comes to you and how much betteryou want to feel like you want?
a different life or a differentoutcome, and if it's less than
seven, I'm not.
I'm canceling that call with apolite email.
Yeah, cause then I'm not goingto put my time and effort in
(23:42):
helping you and you're not goingto waste your money and time
and working with me when youdon't have like a burning desire
.
You're not really ready.
You need to be talked intodoing the work Like come on.
Johnna (23:51):
That's so funny Cause when I first started working
with you, like this is whattriggered when you said that I
was like I was so ready tochange my ways of the men that I
was picking.
Like the men that I was picking,I was like I can't keep living
like this.
I feel miserable and not justand I not just the men I was
picking, but like in my life ingeneral, like the relationships
that I was having, how I wascommunicating with people it was
(24:13):
just making me so miserablebecause I was trying to fix
everything in my life and it wasjust causing more drama and
chaos.
So I remember that.
I remember when I came to you,I was like take all my money, I
don't care, I need to change.
Meenu (24:27):
Yeah, and see, that desire is why a lot of the tools
work really well for you.
A lot of the tools were ofservice to you.
If you didn't have that desire,you're not going to be showing
up on time for the sessions,you're not going to be doing the
homework, you're not going tobe.
You're not going to do that.
So I would take it a leveldeeper and ask the client why do
you want to change?
Was it inspired by you or wasit inspired by other people?
(24:48):
Right, and then, depending ontheir answer, I will say well,
if you want to change, the firstthing we have to work on is
building self-trust, becausethat relationship that you have
with yourself let's not fluffaround it's broken.
It's broken.
So you can't just wake up andsay, oh, I trust myself to not
be an addict tomorrow.
(25:09):
I trust myself to not fuck uptomorrow.
If it was that easy, everybodyelse would be doing it.
Right, it is not that easy.
Johnna (25:16):
And I love that they have now came out with research
showing that addiction isn'tjust a choice.
It is a brain chemicaldysfunction and so, like it's,
it's no different thandepression and how your body is
missing serotonin or dopamine,and you're seeking these things
to make yourself feel a certainway that you can't feel without
it like regardless, and so, likeI've never been an addict, so I
(25:38):
can't sit here and say Icompletely understand, but I've
all.
I have had anxiety for a longtime and like it's no different
than someone telling me stopbeing so anxious about
everything.
And I'm you know, you're justlike.
I would love to stop being soanxious about everything.
Meenu (25:52):
I would love that I could sleep at night and not have
insomnia, you know.
Johnna (25:56):
So I do love that people are like recognizing that this
is a, you know, a braindysfunction and a chemical
imbalance in people.
I feel like there are twodifferent things, because when
someone has a substance abuseand it's more of a brain
chemical thing, it's notnecessarily the same as someone
(26:17):
choosing to make a choice overand over to quit their job
without another job, not go goshopping with all their money
and not paying their bills first, and then expecting someone to
pay your bills because you choseto not be responsible as a, you
know, 30 yearold or somethinglike those.
And I'm not saying that beingan addict isn't a choice.
(26:37):
I understand it's a choiceevery day whenever they choose
to get help, but I feel likeit's a little bit different
because it's almost like theycan't control it in a way.
Meenu (26:46):
That's right, they can't control it.
I will say a lot of magicalthings happen when they say that
, hey, I'm not able to controlit.
I want to get better, I want tochange, I'm ready, I'm open.
It's going to be really hard,but I'm ready to take, like, the
first step because I've workedwith a lot of addicts and guess
what?
They're not addicts anymore.
And again, I'm not a therapist,I'm not a doctor.
(27:07):
I just want to be really honest.
I am a certified life coach andI have been certified in
certain modalities that directlyhelp with trauma release and
release of emotional baggage inthe body.
Right, right.
This person that I worked withwas addicted to drinking beer
and he would not stop with one,he would have four.
Yeah, and I asked him why doyou do that?
(27:29):
And he said that's my way ofrelaxing.
Every night I have to watch theshow and I have to have a drink
in my hand.
It's a, it's a pattern, almostlike hold something in this
right hand and watch the show.
I said, okay, what if we switchthat to juice first?
So we switch that to juice forthe first three weeks and then
in the next few weeks we switchthat to sparkling water, and
(27:49):
guess what?
It worked, good it.
But he also had to make a choicethat every time I have the urge
I'm going to go journal aboutit.
Every time I feel tempted I'mgoing to pick up the phone and
open Voxer and talk to Meenuabout it and ask her for some
tips and reframes on how I wantto reframe my thoughts.
(28:09):
So you see there was a lot ofwork and repetitive choices.
You have to make a choice everyday when you're in that
situation.
It's not like you wake up andsay I want to be better and then
it just life is not happeningfor you.
You create it, you co-createlife with God, with the universe
, depending on what you want tosee and want to create each day.
Johnna (28:39):
I agree with that.
I know we mentioned boundariesearlier.
What would you say the role ofboundaries in compassionate
involvement, and how do we trainthe family members and the
friends to hold them effectivelyso that that person can seek
out the change that they need?
Meenu (28:53):
I think you can be really kind and let's hypothetically
assume this is the fourth timethey're bailing this person out
or they're helping this person,right?
Whoever?
This is, I think, anintervention and everybody
sitting down and saying, hey,like we really want you to get
better.
The reason why we've been doingthis is because we see the
(29:14):
potential.
We see that you've almoststarted doing it and then you
backtrack.
But we want you to know thatthis is it.
We love you.
We've done it one last time,but after this, it's on you.
It's on you, and if you do thisnext time, if this happens one
more time, I want you to knowthat we will still love you, but
(29:35):
the way we show you love willbe different.
Right, we're going to trustthat you may have to hit rock
bottom.
You may have to have moments ofgrowth and moments of pain for
you to want to change on yourown Right.
So you can literally be superkind, super compassionate and
have a very honest conversationand say this is the boundary.
Johnna (29:58):
Right, and I guess I would like, if I like, looking,
because I used to tell my momall the time when she would keep
doing this and like and I sawthe pain it was causing her as
well because nothing, you knowthat the actions weren't there.
There was, it was the samething, kind of in repeat motion,
for years, and I would tell her.
I was like, mom, you reallyneed to go to therapy.
I was like you need to figureout a way to cope with this too,
(30:20):
because this is becoming acodependent situation.
It's almost like she neededthat in her life to feel
important.
Meenu (30:27):
Yes, and it's really sad you say this, because another
thing that's ringing in my brainagain this is not about
boundaries, or this is not aboutaddiction or anything the
podcast is about, but just aquick side note is a lot of
people keep repeating toxicbehaviors and patterns because
it makes them feel important andsignificant, and I hate to say
(30:48):
this.
A lot of parents have kidsbecause it makes them feel
significant.
They don't have children forthe right reasons.
Johnna (30:52):
Yeah, yeah, to say this a lot of parents have kids
because it makes them feelsignificant.
They don't have children forthe right reasons, yeah, yeah, I
mean I made a choice a longtime ago like speaking on this
topic to not have children, notbecause I don't love and adore
children.
It was a choice I made for mebecause of personal.
You know, you know thoughts andthings like that which may be
weak, and I know you've made asimilar choice.
I've made a similar choice.
We should.
We should totally do like thatwe should do a podcast on that,
(31:12):
because I know a lot of peoplewhen they hear a woman say they
don't want children, especiallyin the South, I feel like the
first thought that some peoplehave is wow, you're really
selfish to not have a child andit's not.
And or, oh, you must hatechildren and it's like.
No, I love and adore children,like all my friends.
Children.
I love them.
I want them to go back home atthe end of the night.
(31:32):
That's exactly right.
Meenu (31:33):
That's exactly right and I think a lot of people have so
much shame and, admitting it, Iused to date this.
Oh my God.
I used to date this guy incollege and he would shame me
when I when I told him I don'tknow if I wanted to have
children.
This was when I was 20 yearsold.
I was a baby.
I'm 35 now.
I was 20.
(31:54):
And you'd be like how can awoman say that You're a woman,
you should have this.
So, because of shame, I feellike so many people can't even
say that.
Oh, I'm kind of on the fence orI'm thinking about it.
I'm thinking about thesefactors because there's so much
judgment and shame.
Unfortunately, that not onlycomes from men, but comes from
(32:17):
other women.
Johnna (32:18):
Yeah, there is.
Now it's getting better, likeI've noticed.
Like cause I?
You know, I had the samethoughts in my twenties as well.
Meenu (32:27):
And then it's getting better.
Johnna (32:28):
And then now like not to get off guys on topic, but I
mean it's just, it's a relevanttopic.
And now like not to get offguys on topic, but I mean it's
just, it's a relevant topic.
And, like you know, a lot of myfriends have had infertility
issues and like I will stillempathize with them.
But I also can't fully knowwhat that's like, because I've
never wanted something like that, so bad and not be able to
happen and I feel for my friendsbecause, like I'm like I will
(32:50):
be here for you.
And I feel for my friendsbecause, like I'm like I will be
here for you, I'll support youin any way I can.
But I don't.
I personally can't say I don'tknow what that feels like,
because I've never wanted that,and then it not happen.
Meenu (33:02):
No, absolutely Absolutely .
And that comes back full circle, right?
If you don't want anything sobad, it's hard to make it happen
.
Right?
And that goes with mentalhealth.
That goes with whether you'rean addict and you want to change
, whether you keep going back tojail and you don't want to,
whether you keep dating the samepeople but you don't want to.
Well, I'm sorry to say this,but at a very core level, you
(33:23):
have to want a different outcome.
Johnna (33:26):
Yeah, and would you say.
I guess, like a lot of people,stay in that cycle of what, no
matter what we're talking abouthere, whether, like you just
said, going back to the sametype of guy, going back to your
ex-boyfriend, going back to orstaying in a terrible job or
anything, would you say that'sbecause that's that familiar.
I can never say that word,familiarity.
Meenu (33:48):
There, you go.
Johnna (33:48):
I'm not going to go try.
It's because that and like,like I said, that childhood
trauma where maybe they wereused to chaos and they have to
have that to feel a sense ofnormalcy.
Meenu (33:59):
Absolutely.
And then for these people, letme tell you and when I say these
people, I don't want you guysto think that I'm putting them
down, I'm just, I used to be oneof those people Same same same.
It's coming from a lot ofgrowth and reflection, right,
and when I see them, I alsonotice that the unknown
territory is more scary for themthan the known pain.
(34:19):
They know that the suffering isgoing to hurt.
They they've been through it somany times but they know what's
going to hurt, how long it'sgoing to hurt, how painful it's
going to be.
They, they almost know that,right.
But healing and freedom theydon't know what to do with that
because they're not used to it.
I legit had a client this was in2022.
She said I want to change, butI'm really scared, like I have
(34:43):
no idea what my life looks likeif I don't have anxiety, if I
don't wake up stressed like on alevel 10 every day.
Yeah, if I'm not screaming atmy children, I don't wake up
stressed like on a level 10every day, if I'm not screaming
at my children, I don't knowwhat that looks like, right?
And so, because of that unknownelement and it's so scary,
because anything unknown isscary to the guess what
(35:05):
subconscious.
It's so scary to thesubconscious because we always
choose familiar patterns due tosafety.
So healing is unfamiliar tothem.
It's unknown to them.
Growth is unknown to safety, sohealing is unfamiliar to them.
It's unknown to them.
Growth is unknown to them.
So they're almost sabotagingand they keep staying in that.
So now this is where the realmagic happens is when they say
anything is better than this.
(35:25):
When they say that, thenthey're saying I accept any
other outcome except this pain.
That means they're ready forsomething else.
Johnna (35:34):
Do you think a person can get to that point if someone
is always there?
I don't want to say bailingthem out, because I don't know
if that's the correct term, butI guess quote unquote bailing
them out, if someone's alwaysbailing them out of their
situation, their trouble, theirchaos, their anxiety, whatever
it is, if someone's always doingthat.
I'll give an example.
(35:55):
So for me, like if I was likedating the same guy for a long
period of time, over and overand over, and I would go to the
same friend for years, over andover and over, and they never
said hey, john, I love youdearly, but it's been two, three
years.
We're not talking about thisanymore.
You, what was going to change?
Nothing.
I was going to go back, get myfeelings hurt, go run to my
(36:17):
friend, cry about it.
They were going to be like comehere, there, there, there,
there, and then what happens?
I go back, get hurt, go back tomy friend, and until I had no
one to talk to and sit in mypain with that, there was no
thought process.
Don't get me wrong.
I wasn't like oh, I love this,this is fun.
(36:41):
No, I get it, yeah.
Do you think that someone canhave that thought of I want to
change if someone is constantlynot letting go of them.
Meenu (36:48):
Meaning if you have somebody.
Are you saying if you have afriend or someone that's
constantly telling you?
Are you asking me if it's stillpossible to change?
Johnna (36:57):
Yeah, like, do you think that someone will still have
that realization of I need tochange.
I can't keep doing this If youalways have someone enabling you
.
Meenu (37:06):
Yes, because let me tell you, this Life is full of
surprises.
That person is there for youtoday.
You don't know that person isgoing to be there for you
tomorrow.
Of surprises that person isthere for you today.
You don't know if that personis going to be there for you
tomorrow, right, you don't knowif that person's going to change
their mind.
Everybody has a tolerance limit.
Everybody has a bandwidth.
Even I've seen the mostgenerous people, the more giving
people flip because somethinghas just flipped in their mind
and they're like I don't want todo this anymore, I don't want
(37:28):
to coddle them anymore, I don'twant to be there anymore.
It's exhausting.
So I've seen that happen and Iwill say the universe has a way
of bitch slapping you.
It's like you can't.
I don't think anybody can getout really without learning like
some big lessons in thislifetime.
You think you're escaping, butyou're good for now.
(37:51):
Sure, it feels like you'recushioned and you're safe and
you have people to bail you outand things.
But what happens when you getinto a relationship tomorrow?
What are you going to do thenwhen you have to clean up after
your shit and you have to showup as a husband and a father and
take ownership andresponsibility.
What are you going to say atthat time?
So I feel like life is full ofsurprises, the universe is full
(38:13):
of surprises.
Yes, you can have someone butlikely to answer your question.
If you continually havesomebody that's doing that,
you're not going to get better,right?
Johnna (38:24):
Agreed, you're not.
You're not.
What is the difference?
Or how can we help someonewithout enabling yeah?
Meenu (38:36):
I do this sometimes with people is I'll just have
conversations.
I'll just say there was.
There is this friend of minethat had a conversation with me
a few months ago.
She complains about the sameperson.
It's another friend.
Right, they trigger each other.
Great Girl friendships triggereach other.
(38:57):
She constantly complains abouther.
I said hey, I love you dearlyand we've been friends for 28
years.
I love you dearly.
No man has ever triggered youthis much.
But this person clearly istriggering you so much.
But I feel very negativewhenever I keep talking about
(39:18):
this and it's starting to feelnegative.
Can we say change the subjectand can we talk about something
else?
Okay, Because I've alreadygiven you feedback on what you
can do with this other friend.
I've already given you feedbackon how you can set boundaries.
I've given you tips, tricks, onhow you can protect your energy
.
And if you make a choice thatyou don't want to do that and
(39:38):
you want to keep complaining,you can do that, but I'm not
your person.
Johnna (39:42):
OK, so it's just a polite conversation to just you
know, be like I care.
But this is, and I'll say, likeyou know, my friends used to do
that to me when I was obsessedwith a guy for many, many years
she finally got to the pointwhere she was like listen, I
love you, but my advice hasn'tchanged.
But my advice hasn't changed.
Yeah, so I really wouldappreciate it if we didn't talk
about this anymore.
Yeah, because it was disruptingher peace and I completely
(40:03):
respected that and I understoodit and, honestly, without her
saying that to me, like I said,I probably would have stayed in
the cycle.
Meenu (40:09):
Hmm, and sometimes you have to.
I know this sounds reallybrutal, but sometimes you have
to kind of get hurt to like getit yeah.
And whether that's a friendrejecting you, rejecting your
complaints, rejecting yourenergy, something has to happen
for that change to happen on adeep level, Almost yeah.
Johnna (40:30):
Would you say there's a different.
Well, I know there's adifference, but, like, I feel
like there are true manipulatorswhere they know how to
manipulate a situation andcontinue to get that support and
where someone will continue toenable, but it's not really
enabling, because they're doingit on purpose to manipulate.
So how can we identify?
I guess it would be learnedhelplessness, like I'm going to
(40:50):
be helpless so that someone canhelp me, but it's not.
And then there's the peoplethat truly that they don't
recognize it.
It's a subconscious thing thatthey're doing it and they're
because people aren't lettingthem hit rock bottom.
So how do we, like,differentiate that learned
helplessness and to know, okay,look, they actually really could
help themselves?
Meenu (41:10):
Oh my God, Sometimes I think you're psychic.
Are you sure you're not?
Because me and another bestfriend today we were talking
about manipulative people and wewere talking exactly about
somebody we know that acts likea wounded bird all the time,
acts like you know they needsupport all the time, they need
(41:31):
help all the time, but they'rejust fine, but they act like
that.
So I did this like a littletest in a in a friendship that
that's been coming up in my liferecently and I saw if they ever
wanted to just hang out withoutme doing anything for them.
(41:54):
Right, do you just want to goand have coffee?
Do?
Do you just want to, you know,meet me for lunch?
Do you just want to catch upwithout me giving A value, b,
resources, c advice, like, doyou just want to be my friend?
And I started observing becauseI'm a very silent observer.
(42:15):
When I get hurt or annoyed or Ifeel manipulated or played, I
am somebody that keeps quiet fora long time and I get into like
observing mode and everythingis under a microscope for the
next few weeks Under my radarright, yeah.
And I just saw things so clearlyand I saw that I was being used
(42:39):
and I was just like I'm played.
But you know what?
I caught it early and I'm gladthat I caught it early, because
now I can have boundaries andnow I don't have to give into
where they're, they're notwounded, they are just fine, and
they only need me because theyneed something.
So a quick way to spot it isare they just wanting to hang
(43:00):
out with you for your genuineenergy, for your kind heart, to
just be with you and spend timewith you, or is it always like I
want to hang out with you?
Hey, by the way, can you dothis favor?
Can you do this for me?
Obviously, they're trying tooutsmart you.
They're trying to say oh, Iwant her to think that I'm
hanging out with her because Ilike her, but but also like I'm
(43:23):
getting this thing out of herright.
Johnna (43:25):
No, that makes complete sense, because I, when you were
saying that, I was thinkingabout a few people in my life
like that, I was like, yeah,that checks out, that checks out
.
What, um would you say?
Is it ever okay to walk awayfrom someone struggling?
Meenu (43:46):
Yes, and that depends on your moral and ethical code and
that also depends on yourpersonal bandwidth.
I will never I mean unless afriend asks me for advice or a
client asks me for advice I willnever say break up with him, do
this, do that, like no.
This is toxic, becauseeverybody's bandwidth is very
different and everybody's abusetolerance is different, so
(44:06):
tolerance is different.
So I would check in and ask,whoever that person is, who's
getting burnt out or gettingexhausted, that how do I feel?
Am I feeling like I'm stillholding space with overflow?
Or do I have bitterness orresentment in being of service?
Or am I getting a kick in myego and a boost inside myself
(44:29):
whenever I save somebody?
Why is this happening?
And why do I keep doing this,all these questions, to do some
self-reflection.
And if it doesn't feel good, ifit doesn't feel like it's
coming from overflow and agenuine place of love and it's
coming at a selfish cost,believe me when I say it is
selfish sometimes to helpsomeone, it is because you're
(44:51):
doing it, because you want tofeel better.
I agree, I can't tell you howmany times it has felt so hard
for me to not help, like it'sfelt so hard to not do it,
because I didn't want to beselfish.
Johnna (45:06):
Right, no, I completely agree.
So how then can we set thoseboundaries to not feel guilty if
you walk away from someonestruggling?
Because I think that'ssomething like that my mom
struggled with is that she feltthe guilt, like you mentioned
earlier, and she, she, shegenuinely thought my sister was
struggling, so she felt guiltywalking away from that.
(45:28):
And how could she have, at thattime, set better boundaries and
not felt that guilt?
Meenu (45:34):
I think guilt and shame dies literally dies when you say
it as it is Meaning hey, Ifucked up when I raised you and
this is where I messed up.
This is where I did wrong.
This is what I should have done, but instead I did this because
(45:55):
I wasn't self-aware and Ididn't know better and I was
dysregulated, so I was comingfrom a place of what can I do
and I didn't think through it.
However, you're an adult, I'man adult.
I have seen again remember,behavior is a language.
You want to look at patterns,not feelings, right?
I have seen a pattern thatevery time I've helped, it's not
(46:18):
gotten better.
I've seen evidence and proofthat every time I've helped,
it's not gotten better.
I've seen evidence and proofthat every time I've intervened,
you've not grown, you've notchanged.
So I want to try somethingdifferent and I want to take a
backseat and I'm going to trustyou to figure this out.
Johnna (46:35):
Oh, I love that.
I love that Because that's notnegative, that's not saying
screw you, I'm done.
I love that because that's avery mature way to have that
conversation and that otherperson probably will still be
mad, but not as mad, becausethat conversation didn't take a
turn you can say my love isnever going to change, right,
(47:02):
but my support is going tochange.
Meenu (47:03):
The way I want to hold space is going to change,
because I want to.
I've done these things andthese patterns and this has not
served you and this has notserved me.
And I also don't want to be ina place where I am doing it to
appease myself.
I don't want to do it out ofguilt and shame, because I've
now owned to my mistakes.
I've owned up to all the wrongthings that I've done.
I don't want to carry it and Idon't want to do it from that
place.
If I do it, I want to do it outof love and I feel like I've
(47:25):
already done it and it's notdifferent.
Johnna (47:28):
Right, I love that.
No, I really I appreciate yousaying that.
Yeah, what would you say?
The emotional cost to theperson doing all the saving
would be?
Meenu (47:38):
Oh my God, I can't even, I can't even begin.
Johnna (47:47):
Well, I haven't.
So save that, because thismight help you trigger something
in what you're going to say.
Cause my next question to youis going to be can trying to
help that person too much createtrauma for either person?
Meenu (47:56):
I mean absolutely Trauma.
I like to say it will totallystop the growth of the victim
who is going through this issueI don't even want to say victim,
let's say client.
That's like going through thatperson that's going through this
and for the other person, itstops them from being validated
(48:18):
Because, remember, every timethey help and they say thank you
, you're such a good person forhelping me.
They're being validated thatthey're a good person, they're a
good citizen, they're a helpfulmother, they're a helpful
parent.
So that sense of validation,guess what?
They're going to have to get itfrom somewhere else.
They're going to have toself-validate and see if I don't
(48:39):
help this person, if I don't dothis, am I able to regulate
myself?
Am I still able to validatemyself?
So it's not really a traumaresponse, but it's almost
removing certain parts thatyou're used to, certain
addictions that you're used to,which is maybe being seen and
being validated and beingappreciated.
It's learning to live withoutthat and asking am I still
(49:01):
enough if I don't get all thesethings from outside?
Johnna (49:04):
Yeah, 1000%.
No, I appreciate this topic hasbeen great.
Now I do have.
I've been doing rapid fires atthe end of my podcast lately.
And I want to do a rapid firewith you.
It's a game called helper orenabler.
So it's quick answers, don'toverthink.
It's just the first thing thatcomes to your brain, usually
just a one word or a sentenceOkay, boundaries Easy or hard
(49:27):
for you?
Easy.
Do you believe people canchange?
Yes, ever enabled someone andregretted it?
Yes, what's harder saying no orwatching someone fail?
Yes, what's harder saying no orwatching someone fail.
Watching someone fail, do youfix or feel first, feel Ever
(49:50):
ghosted a toxic situationinstead of confronting it?
No, never.
I'm very communicative.
Same girl, I communicate toomuch, and you, you know that my
texts are ran down sometimes,but anyways, moving on, most
overused excuse you hear fromenablers when you say enablers,
(50:12):
you mean the ones that arehelping the victims, yeah, and
they keep enabling them to keepdoing what they're doing.
Meenu (50:18):
Oh, if I don't do this, who will?
Johnna (50:21):
Yep, one thing you wish people knew about helping too
much.
Meenu (50:28):
That they're ruining them .
They're ruining them.
They're ruining their growth,yep, their self-trust, their
confidence.
They're destroying it.
Johnna (50:37):
What's your personal red flag for enabling destroying it
?
Meenu (50:42):
What's your personal red flag for enabling Ego?
They're doing an art of ego.
It's all about you.
It's not about them, it's aboutyou.
Johnna (50:48):
Can you love someone and still walk away?
Yes, one word to describe whatenabling feels like To me.
Meenu (50:59):
Suffocation.
Johnna (51:01):
Helping Heart or head first Heart Is guilt, ever
useful.
Meenu (51:08):
Yes, Give us an example when guilt would be useful.
Well, let's just say guilt hasbeen real useful for me when
I've eaten like big meals theselast few weeks and I always like
to have a sweet treat after themeal and I'd be like, oh my God
, I ate so much, so I would feela little bit guilt.
(51:32):
And then I walked after mymeals.
That really helped with myglucose and my blood sugar and I
never had crashes.
I felt great.
So I would say guilt sometimesis useful.
Johnna (51:40):
And then one thing that always makes you want to save
someone.
Meenu (51:46):
When they're willing.
Johnna (51:49):
When they say I'm ready.
Then you're wanting to savethem.
Meenu (51:53):
I'm obsessed.
I'm obsessed when someone saysthey're ready, can't stop me
what's the hardest let go momentyou've seen.
What is let go moment.
Johnna (52:03):
Like someone letting them finally go and do it
themselves.
Meenu (52:10):
I mean, it's happened every day with my clients.
So I would say, working withaddicts it's the hardest, it's
the hardest Working with addictsBut's the hardest when I had to
.
It's the hardest Working withaddicts.
But let me actually top you upeven more Working with really,
really anxiously attached peoplein relationships, yeah, and
(52:31):
then I tell them, instead ofspiraling and contacting them,
sit with yourself, you know, anduse these tools to regulate it
was.
It's so hard for me to let gobecause I almost want to tell
them you don't text them, youcan text me.
But then that's also not goodbecause that's enabling them.
(52:54):
Exactly Because they're stillstaying anxious, that's right,
and they're still.
I'm still coddling them.
Now their partner is not doingit, I'm doing it.
So I had to be like you canreach out to me, but you instead
do these exercises and, onceyou've regulated, reach out to
me and tell me what you did.
Now that was very empowering.
So that letting go moment isreally hard for me, because I
know how difficult it is toregulate when you're spiraling.
Johnna (53:25):
But at the same time, it's also very rewarding because
I've seen them do it.
Yep, no, I love that.
Well, thank you again, asalways, for doing these podcasts
with me and sharing yourknowledge and wealth of
everything that you do.
Guys, thank you for listening.
If you like this podcast, shareit with a friend, go write mean
news podcast on transcend intowellness and mine on Babbel's
nonsense.
And until next time, until nexttime, guys.
Meenu (53:40):
until next time.
Thank you so much, guys, andthank you, jonna, for the most
amazing questions we have.
I have heard so much feedbacknow in our podcast and everybody
has said you guys have greatchemistry.
Johnna (53:52):
Same thing I know I get it all the time.
I'll be like I just, and thenand y'all keep that like we love
when you reach out to us or dmus and let us know what topics
you want us to discuss, becausesometimes we're fresh out of
ideas and when y'all give us atopic that you want to hear, we
will do some research and wewill get some questions together
and we'll do a podcast.
Meenu (54:12):
Yeah, we love doing this.
So, yes, keep us posted.
Thank you so much, guys, fortuning in, and we will
definitely see you more infuture episodes.
All right, guys bye, bye.
What is up everyone?
Welcome back to another episodeof the Babbles Nonsense podcast
.
And today we are joined byMeenu, who is a life coach and
host of the Transcend IntoWellness podcast.
And today we are talking aboutenabling.
So when does helping turn intohurting?
When does support becomesabotage?
And how do you know if you'resaving someone or just saving
them from themselves?
(00:21):
Today we are talking about oneof the hardest truths to face.
You can love someone and stillbe enabling them.
Whether it's addiction, toxicpatterns or emotional chaos.
Some people don't change untilthey hit their own kind of rock
bottom.
So where is that line betweencompassion and codependency?
How do you let go withoutcarrying guilt?
And is walking away sometimesthe most loving thing you can do
?
Again, to help me unpack all ofthis, I'm joined by Min Yu, who
(00:45):
is a life coach and the host ofthe Transcend Into Wellness
podcast.
She brings the receipts, theinsight and the real talk that
you didn't even know you needed.
But before we dive in, a quicknote this conversation is not to
substitute therapy, treatmentor professional help.
All right guys, let's get intoit.
All right guys, welcome back.
(01:28):
Me and Meenu are back togethertoday.
Meenu (01:31):
And welcome back guys.
We're so pumped into Babbel'sNonsense and Transcend into
Wellness.
I have not been here, Jonna,for three weeks now, so you've
inspired me to do anotherepisode.
Johnna (01:43):
It's been a while.
I know I reached out to you nottoo long ago about this episode
.
Um, that we're gonna do todayand you're like I'm in
hibernation mode.
I was like you know, I probablyneed to do one of those.
That sounds very nice.
That's what I need to do but Iwanted to talk.
I wanted to talk to you becauseI couldn't do this alone,
because mostly about a topiclike where we enable people
(02:08):
versus like helping them,because I know and especially in
this could be anybody rightthis can be family, this can be
platonic relationships, romanticrelationships.
I see it more in a familydynamic and that's kind of like
where I was thinking about thisfrom like I had been talking to
friends and things had beengoing on in their life and I was
like, yeah, I've had thatsituation in my life too.
(02:30):
And I was like this would be areally good podcast topic
because I feel like probably alot of people kind of don't know
where that line ends ofenabling them to get better and
change their ways, versus likedo we help?
Meenu (02:49):
like do we help?
Yeah, yeah, that's a reallyvery effective topic.
I also think that it applies inso many areas and you're saying
that you know family dynamicsAbsolutely.
I've also seen that happen infriendships.
I've seen it happen inrelationships, like one of my
close friends was recentlydating somebody and it almost
seemed like she had to be histherapist.
So you know she has to be likeI got to stop, you know helping
(03:09):
you and do me, and this is whereI draw the line.
So it's like having boundarieswhen you are in these situations
.
So I've seen it happen inseveral dynamics and I think
it's really important to talkabout.
Johnna (03:21):
Yeah, and I know that, like when I looked up statistics
for this, like it pulled up alot more with, like substance
abuse, because that's where wesee it the most Like we see a
lot like when, like, of course,me working in the ER, like I had
families ask me like well, whatdo I do?
Because I don't want to give upon them, because I don't want
them to hurt themselves, andthings like that.
So we see it more, whether itbe alcohol, drugs, whatever.
But I personally saw it in myfamily and it wasn't with drug
(03:44):
abuse or any substance abuse, itwas more so um, a sibling that
really didn't have her stufftogether and my mom would always
like pay her rent or pay hercar payment, and then it was
like she's never gonna learn todo that if you don't do it.
But then, at the the same time,I understand from her
(04:05):
perspective, she's like, butthat's my child and so where is
drawing that line?
So that's kind of what I wantedto get into, yeah.
Meenu (04:13):
And it's so funny.
You say that.
I just listened to a podcastand I don't know if you know Dr
John Deloney is a familytherapist.
He's written multiple books onanxiety.
He's a specialist in terms ofrelationships and managing
family dynamics and stuff, andhe said that he read it in a
book like literally on the frontpage, that the greatest gifts
(04:36):
parents can give their childrenare problems.
Really, yeah, and you wouldthink it's the other way.
You would think, oh my God, Ineed to coddle, I need to
protect, I need to prevent themfrom having any negative
experiences, from getting hurt,but unfortunately that will just
tamper with their growth andthat will sabotage their
(04:59):
self-worth.
I mean, it makes sense earth,because they are never yeah,
they're never figuring anythingout Like.
I can give you an example aboutmyself.
My dad pretty much spoiled me,you know, when he raised me Like
.
So I had to learn a lot of hardlessons once I left home, when
I was 17 and a half and I livedin a country where I didn't know
(05:20):
anyone.
I made friends that I've neverseen before in my life.
I had to navigate throughschool, study things that I
didn't like, live in places thatweren't great.
I was at rock bottom because Ihad not seen troubles that much
when I was younger than that.
So I underwent and experiencedthe spectrum of the troubles so
(05:41):
much all the way back from whenI was 17 to 22.
And then, of course, later inmy 30s, once I got divorced and
started restarted my businesslike that so it and I would
never take a single trouble awayLike, yeah, I complained, yeah,
it was hard, but would I changeanything?
No, everything taught me somuch, it gave me so much grit,
(06:01):
it gave me so much strength.
I can never get that fromreading a book.
Johnna (06:10):
No, yeah, like I.
Similar story.
I mean we, we grew up polaropposites, like I felt like my
parents were more focused on mysister because she was in and
out of trouble a lot, so I gotignored a lot, which we've
talked about on other episodes,and so like, for a long time I
held all this anger inside of mebecause I was like you're still
my mother, you still shouldhave cared, you still, and like
not saying she didn't carebecause she cared in her own way
.
But that was not the focus atthat time.
(06:31):
But, looking back on it, likeI'm so proud of how independent
I am and I can do things bymyself and I'm financially
secure and I know how to balancea checkbook and I know how to
pay my bills.
And like, looking back on it,like me having to do that at
such an early age and so young,like I probably wouldn't have
done that because me and mysister have talked since then,
and she was like I feel like,because mom was always helping
(06:54):
me, I didn't learn those things.
She was like when did you learnthose things?
I was like Lindsay, like welived in the same house, what
are you talking about?
And she was like, but I don'tfeel like I got that same
education because of thecoddling to her, because of her
being in trouble and so like nowthat you say that like yeah, it
took me a long time to realizethat, like I'm appreciative, but
(07:16):
also it still sucks right so no, absolutely, it really, really
really sucks.
Meenu (07:22):
but I've started reframing the suck, like how do
I?
Johnna (07:25):
say it Because I'm a life coach.
Meenu (07:26):
I have to reframe everything.
When I feel sucky, when I feelthis, it's like what is it
training me to be?
What is it teaching me in thismoment?
It's difficult, clearly,because I've not done this
before, but what is it also likestretching?
How is it stretching me to be abetter person?
Right, I mean, how is thisgoing to be beneficial later on?
Like, for example, because I'velived in so many countries, you
can practically throw meanywhere and I'll survive.
(07:49):
Yeah, because I've lived inAmerica, I've lived in Mexico,
I've lived in India, I've livedin Singapore.
Like, I don't say this lightly.
It came with a lot of trial anderror, making mistakes, not
having friends, periods ofloneliness and isolation and
then finding community and then,immediately after finding
community, moving somewhere else.
(08:09):
It came with a lot of lessons.
But I'm also here and I'm alsoat this capacity where I feel
like I've learned so much atthis age because I've had those
hard experiences.
Johnna (08:21):
Yeah, I agree, I agree.
So kind of I want to ask yousome questions, since you kind
of deal with this when you'recoaching clients, so you, you
kind of know how to navigate it.
Meenu (08:30):
So that's why I didn't want to do it by myself.
Johnna (08:33):
So, how can we define that quote unquote rock bottom
in more objective orindividualized terms, or like
should that matter?
Should we?
Should we say rock bottom?
Should we think of it in thosenegative terms?
Does that make sense?
Meenu (08:46):
what I'm asking oh, 1000% .
And the interesting part aboutrock bottom is it's very
subjective to each person,depending on their experiences.
Like my rock bottom may not beyour rock bottom.
Your rock bottom may not be myrock, I'd be like I'd probably
think why is Jonna so upsetabout this?
It won't make sense, it won'tclick.
But each person still feelingthat amount of pain where they
(09:11):
can't go nowhere, but theyreally hit that place, I think
that itself is enough for it tobe classified as rock bottom
Right.
And I am a person who don't.
I don't believe in fluffingeverything to positivity.
I don't believe in fluffingeverything to positivity.
I don't believe in changingnegative terms to positive terms
.
It is what it is.
It fucking sucks, it's painful,it's rock bottom.
Rock bottom is rock bottom,right.
(09:32):
Yeah.
So even when my clients facethe rock bottomness, I will say
I want you to say that.
I want you to verbally, justsay it like loudly, say I have
hit rock bottom, because it'salmost like going to AA and
saying I'm an alcoholic.
Yeah, it's to accept whereyou're at, completely feel the
(09:53):
suck of that situation, feel thehurt which will, which is what
will actually provoke you to belike I don't really want to be
here anymore, right, and I havenowhere to go but up.
Johnna (10:07):
And that's the client.
So what, what do you say to andI know you're not coaching the
family members and stuff.
So, like, you just brought up agreat example like alcoholics
have to admit that they're inthat position in the first place
.
But then you also have Al-Anon,which is for family members and
friends of alcoholics, whereyou have to also learn to
support an alcoholic.
So if it's not, if it's notsubstance abuse or it is
(10:30):
substance abuse whichever, like,how do you as the family or the
friend, know when to let themdig themselves out of their own
grave versus?
I'll give you a good example.
So my brother, he used to be inand out of jail a lot and he
would always get bailed out,whether that be by family
members or friends or whatever.
(10:51):
And my theory and maybe I'mwrong, this is just a question
Sometimes I think he should havejust sat there and had to think
about what he did and why hegot there and maybe he wouldn't
keep going back.
But again, I know everyone's,like you said, everyone's
different in their thoughtprocesses.
But that was my thought process.
I was like why don't y'all justlet him sit, sit there?
And of course, when I talked toother family members they're
(11:11):
like.
Because that's my, that's myfamily, I'm not going to do that
.
Meenu (11:16):
You know that's also.
I hate to say this.
This is also very subjective,because I'll give you an example
.
I have a three strike systemwith people, with friends, with
lovers.
Three strike system.
You do me wrong three times.
You're out, yeah, right.
Some people will be like, whydo you have a three strike?
Like they should be out thefirst time.
What are you talking?
(11:37):
Like, don't you have boundaries?
Like why would you do that?
Some people will say, no, theirfamily, it's endless.
What do you mean?
There are three strikes, right.
So I think it really depends onyour personal values and where
you draw that line and the whatgrace would you give yourself?
So that is what I would ask you.
Right, if you were facing thatsituation and if you wanted
(11:58):
somebody else to give you grace,what would you expect from them
?
And that is something that youcan do after, upon reflection,
to see if that still feels goodfor you right.
I will say after they're 21,they're pretty much adults.
Yeah, sit them down, we cantalk to them, we can even be so
(12:18):
kind to like pay for their rehabonce or pay for a few therapy
sessions out of love andkindness.
You don't have to do it out oflove and kindness, but even in
coaching, even in therapy andyou know this, jonah, I know
this, I've said it in countlesspodcasts you have to want a
different outcome.
Johnna (12:34):
Right, and I guess that's because maybe because
I've been through the coachingand been through the therapy
that I know that's what I'vebeen told and I know my family
member has not been through thecoaching and therapy.
So like we have obviously verydifferent mindsets when it comes
to like I don't know, I guess,like I don't know how he's going
to learn any different if hekeeps getting bailed out of
(12:56):
every situation.
I'm sure he doesn't feel likehe's been bailed out of every
situation.
Like you said, it's allsubjective and you know this is
my perspective and then he hashis perspective and everything
like that.
And I love him dearly, don'tget me wrong.
It's just like when is enoughenough for you?
When do you want to stop livingthis life?
And I know we can't want thatfor them and it's just, it just
(13:18):
baffles me.
And it's not just like.
I talked to a coworker and sheyou know she was talking to me
about the similar thing.
She was like similar thinggoing on in her family, like she
has finally like put her footdown, like I'm no longer helping
this family member because theywon't help themselves, but then
her mom turns around and doesit.
So she's like like I'm tryingto teach him a lesson to grow up
(13:38):
, but if you're going to gobehind my back and just help him
anyways, then how's he going tolearn?
Meenu (13:44):
back and just help him anyways, then how's he going to
learn?
Right?
And this is that's so crazy,because I read this in a book
whatever you're talking about inthis book called Power
Manifesting, where the author,the book is about manifestation,
but he also talks about thisparticular thing and he says
when you constantly help peopleout of their misery or out of
their suffering, you are Ainterfering with their karma,
(14:04):
meaning they have certain karmathat they need to fulfill and
undergo in this lifetime tolearn their lessons.
Whether you believe it or not,I'm not going to go into that,
right?
The second reason is also, youare sabotaging their journey of
them hitting rock bottom andthen wanting to get up, but what
you're doing is they're on theway there and you're pulling
(14:25):
them up so they never reallyknow what rock bottom is.
And because they never reallyknow what rock bottom is, they
don't want a different outcome.
Right?
Honestly, I hate to say thisthey don't have enough pain,
right, they haven't sufferedenough.
There has to be some catalystto change it.
Either has to be enough pain,enough suffering, or like there
(14:50):
has to be some desperation,almost Not in an unhealthy way,
but like you should have aburning desire to say this is it
Like?
I'm done being a victim?
I'm done, you know, throwingpity parties.
I'm done asking for help.
I'm a grown-ass man.
I'm done throwing pity parties.
I'm done asking for help.
I'm a grown-ass man.
I'm a grown-ass woman.
I need to figure this shit outby myself, right?
(15:10):
And if you don't hit rockbottom, you may never have that
feeling.
Johnna (15:15):
And guys, I just want to throw a caveat.
We're not talking about ifsomeone's coming to you and
they're saying they're suicidalor homicidal or anything like
that.
Obviously, don't ignore someonewhen they're saying that to you
, because you never know ifsomeone's being real or if
they're not, so you always takethat as a serious threat.
We're talking about like thingswe were just talking about,
whether that be in and out ofjail.
You know can't pay your bills,like when is that kind of thing
(15:36):
enough, enough.
We're not talking about mentalhealth issues at this point
right, I'm really glad you saidthat which just came into into
my head because, you know,working in the ER I was like, oh
wait, we should probably throwthat caveat in there.
We're not because, you know,and I get it People are like, oh
, like.
I've even heard people say thatwhen someone comes up to them
and they're like, hey, they'resuicidal or and they'll be like
I don't believe them.
(15:57):
Well, we should always believesomeone when they're saying that
, because you just never knowwhen someone you just never know
Like, even if you're like theywould never do that to
themselves, you just never know,because depression is real and
you just never know when it maybe a real thing or a situation.
Meenu (16:11):
No, absolutely, I totally agree.
I feel like when somebody comesto you and asks for help,
that's an invitation to fullyparticipate and listen to their
story and see how you can be ofservice.
I've also had experiences whereI've helped them when they've
not asked and it's not receivedwell.
So I would still say, when itcomes to, again, minor
(16:33):
situations like I wouldn't sayminor, but not suicidal and
extreme situations, if they'renot coming to you and you're
constantly going and helpingthem, maybe you're doing that
because it's reallyuncomfortable for you.
Johnna (16:46):
It's kind of, if you think about it it's selfish,
right right it is, and I'm gladyou said that because, like
that's, I guess maybe that'swhat the piece I was missing or
hearing and just needed to hear,because sometimes I do feel
like it is.
You don't want to see them thatway.
Meenu (17:03):
And maybe it means something about you.
Oh, my son, my brother, myrelative, oh, it's a pride issue
.
I can't have that happen to myfamily, so I have to clean up
the mess before it gets worse.
Like you know, just make itabout pride and ego, not really
thinking about that person andwhether that's helping them,
helping them grow, helping thembetter themselves.
(17:24):
You're not really really there,right?
Johnna (17:27):
So how would you, as a coach, ethically weigh them
having autonomy versusprotection in that situation
where, like, maybe they'resitting in jail and the family
member keeps bailing them out,how would you tell the client
versus the family member, likethis is their autonomy versus
the family protecting them?
(17:47):
Yeah.
Meenu (17:48):
I think there's multiple layers to it.
For example, if the person thatwent to jail is my client, I
would fully, 100% ask them ifthey've learned their lesson.
What is the different behavior?
Because, remember, behavior isa language.
It doesn't matter if you keepsaying I want to change, I want
to be better.
I'm not going to do thatanymore.
(18:09):
Yeah, it sounds really greatand it's pleasing to the ears.
I'm not going to do thatanymore.
Yeah, it sounds really greatand it's pleasing to the ears,
but if your behavior is notdifferent, then you're not doing
anything different, right?
So if I were, if they were myclient, that's what I would say.
If behavior were a language,what would you be doing
differently from what you didbefore, and how would you hold
yourself accountable for that?
Or do you want me to hold youaccountable, or do you have
(18:30):
somebody else holding youaccountable for the different
actions you have to take?
But if the family members weremy clients, I would ask them
what exact, what is the exactreason why you keep bailing them
out?
Yeah, why do you feel like youneed to keep saving them?
Is it a you thing?
Is it a them thing?
Is it an ego thing?
(18:51):
Are you uncomfortable.
You're not able to sleep atnight thinking about it.
Then I'm so sorry that's a youproblem.
Take a pill, regulate yourself.
Don't meditate Like, yeah, sitin a salt cave.
Like don't take that upon, youknow, like unhealthy actions in
saving someone and having tosave your complex saying, oh,
I'm going to make it about me.
I'm this great person thatalways, like, pulls my nephew
(19:18):
out of the jail or pulls my sonout of the jail, like because
that's giving you a boost toyour ego and who you are.
Trust me, john, I've seen a lotof people do this Like they
legit have that superioritysavior, complex, hero, complex,
yeah, whoa.
It's like you can't even trustpeople that want to help you
anymore right, right, no, thatmakes perfect sense.
Johnna (19:34):
Like, going back to the example of my sister, like and
don't get me wrong, my sister isdoing so much better.
She's, you know, changed herwhole life around and she
finally did decide like she madethat decision.
She decided she made effortsand changes.
So I'm not taking that awayfrom her.
I'm talking about like this islike in high school and stuff so
years ago.
But my mom and me would talklater in life and her exact
(19:54):
words now and you're kind oftriggering my memory was because
I would always ask her like whydo you keep bailing her out?
Why do you keep like, let herhit that bottom to where she
wants to change?
And my mom's exact words were Ifeel like this is my fault,
because I feel like if I wouldhave been there more because I
feel like I work too much, if Iwould have been there more
because I feel like I work toomuch, if I would have been there
(20:14):
more, she wouldn't have actedlike that.
So I feel like this is my fault, so I feel like I have to fix
it.
Meenu (20:18):
Right, so now it's about her guilt and now it's about her
fixing her shame and not reallythinking is it of the greatest
and the highest service to thatperson?
Johnna (20:30):
Right.
So I'm glad you said that,because I didn't even think
about it like that.
But then, like thinking back onpast conversations, I was like
that completely makes sense.
Meenu (20:37):
A lot of people keep doing that.
Like if my client comes andtells me I keep saving this
person, I keep doing this, theykeep coming to me for advice, I
keep saving them, I keep.
I'm like the first thing I askthem is what do you get out of
it?
Johnna (20:49):
And first they'll be like I don't get anything out of
it I'm.
Meenu (20:52):
I'm just being there for them.
I said no, no, no, you'regetting something out of it.
It's either like an ego boost.
It's either you're thinkingthat you're a better, better
than them, which I'm not.
I'm not judging you.
I just want you to be honest inwhat you are really gaining
from constantly and continuallyneeding to be of service to
(21:13):
somebody else that needs to takeresponsibility, that needs to
grow up and take accountability.
Johnna (21:18):
Would you say this thought just came into my head.
Would you say that because Iwas just thinking about my
childhood trauma and how Ithrived in chaos and when things
were kind of like steady andnormal.
Sometimes I inserted myselfinto those things, not willingly
or knowingly, but maybesubconsciously going I need a
little chaos because it'sfeeling a little too safe over
(21:39):
here.
It's feeling.
Meenu (21:39):
It's almost feeling unfamiliar because that's your
familiar territory, even thoughyou don't like it and you don't
consciously seek it.
That's what you're used to.
So you unconsciously sometimesput yourself maybe in situations
, friend groups, scenarios wherethere's maybe some drama.
Maybe you need to fix something, because you were the fixer you
know, yeah, yeah, that makessense.
Johnna (21:59):
So what healing approaches would you say would
reinforce self-efficacy ratherthan dependence, especially in
long term?
Solutions for the client.
Meaning the one that is for forthe, the client, meaning the
one that is, um, constantlydoing things, not really bottom
people getting them out.
How would you if they decidedlike, okay, I need to change.
(22:21):
And they came to you and theywere like, how would you give it
?
What healing approaches wouldyou give them to say, let's make
you self-efficient versusself-dependent, where you feel
like, or yeah, dependent, notindependent, is it right?
Meenu (22:36):
I always get confused on independent.
I get where you're going withthis.
I want to take you a leveldeeper and give you another
answer.
The first thing I would askthem is why do you want to
change?
Because if you're doing it foryour mom, it's not going to
stick.
If you're doing it for yourlover, it's not going to stick.
If you're doing it for yourlover, it's not going to stick.
You're doing it for your kids.
Maybe, maybe it'll stick forsome more time, longer time than
(22:58):
the others, but it's not goingto stick, right.
So why are you doing it?
And unless they say I am sosick of my behavior, I'm so sick
of being this person, I'm doingit for me because I want change
.
Johnna (23:10):
Everything else it's just, it's all fluff, it's just
background noise for me, I lovethat you're triggering my memory
with everything you say, but goahead.
Meenu (23:19):
Until I hear those words, I have it in my consult form
actually for anybody that wantsto work with me.
I ask them on a scale of zeroto 10, what is the number that
comes to you and how much betteryou want to feel like you want?
a different life or a differentoutcome, and if it's less than
seven, I'm not.
I'm canceling that call with apolite email.
Yeah, cause then I'm not goingto put my time and effort in
(23:42):
helping you and you're not goingto waste your money and time
and working with me when youdon't have like a burning desire
.
You're not really ready.
You need to be talked intodoing the work Like come on.
Johnna (23:51):
That's so funny Cause when I first started working
with you, like this is whattriggered when you said that I
was like I was so ready tochange my ways of the men that I
was picking.
Like the men that I was picking,I was like I can't keep living
like this.
I feel miserable and not justand I not just the men I was
picking, but like in my life ingeneral, like the relationships
that I was having, how I wascommunicating with people it was
(24:13):
just making me so miserablebecause I was trying to fix
everything in my life and it wasjust causing more drama and
chaos.
So I remember that.
I remember when I came to you,I was like take all my money, I
don't care, I need to change.
Meenu (24:27):
Yeah, and see, that desire is why a lot of the tools
work really well for you.
A lot of the tools were ofservice to you.
If you didn't have that desire,you're not going to be showing
up on time for the sessions,you're not going to be doing the
homework, you're not going tobe.
You're not going to do that.
So I would take it a leveldeeper and ask the client why do
you want to change?
Was it inspired by you or wasit inspired by other people?
(24:48):
Right, and then, depending ontheir answer, I will say well,
if you want to change, the firstthing we have to work on is
building self-trust, becausethat relationship that you have
with yourself let's not fluffaround it's broken.
It's broken.
So you can't just wake up andsay, oh, I trust myself to not
be an addict tomorrow.
(25:09):
I trust myself to not fuck uptomorrow.
If it was that easy, everybodyelse would be doing it.
Right, it is not that easy.
Johnna (25:16):
And I love that they have now came out with research
showing that addiction isn'tjust a choice.
It is a brain chemicaldysfunction and so, like it's,
it's no different thandepression and how your body is
missing serotonin or dopamine,and you're seeking these things
to make yourself feel a certainway that you can't feel without
it like regardless, and so, likeI've never been an addict, so I
(25:38):
can't sit here and say Icompletely understand, but I've
all.
I have had anxiety for a longtime and like it's no different
than someone telling me stopbeing so anxious about
everything.
And I'm you know, you're justlike.
I would love to stop being soanxious about everything.
Meenu (25:52):
I would love that I could sleep at night and not have
insomnia, you know.
Johnna (25:56):
So I do love that people are like recognizing that this
is a, you know, a braindysfunction and a chemical
imbalance in people.
I feel like there are twodifferent things, because when
someone has a substance abuseand it's more of a brain
chemical thing, it's notnecessarily the same as someone
(26:17):
choosing to make a choice overand over to quit their job
without another job, not go goshopping with all their money
and not paying their bills first, and then expecting someone to
pay your bills because you choseto not be responsible as a, you
know, 30 yearold or somethinglike those.
And I'm not saying that beingan addict isn't a choice.
(26:37):
I understand it's a choiceevery day whenever they choose
to get help, but I feel likeit's a little bit different
because it's almost like theycan't control it in a way.
Meenu (26:46):
That's right, they can't control it.
I will say a lot of magicalthings happen when they say that
, hey, I'm not able to controlit.
I want to get better, I want tochange, I'm ready, I'm open.
It's going to be really hard,but I'm ready to take, like, the
first step because I've workedwith a lot of addicts and guess
what?
They're not addicts anymore.
And again, I'm not a therapist,I'm not a doctor.
(27:07):
I just want to be really honest.
I am a certified life coach andI have been certified in
certain modalities that directlyhelp with trauma release and
release of emotional baggage inthe body.
Right, right.
This person that I worked withwas addicted to drinking beer
and he would not stop with one,he would have four.
Yeah, and I asked him why doyou do that?
(27:29):
And he said that's my way ofrelaxing.
Every night I have to watch theshow and I have to have a drink
in my hand.
It's a, it's a pattern, almostlike hold something in this
right hand and watch the show.
I said, okay, what if we switchthat to juice first?
So we switch that to juice forthe first three weeks and then
in the next few weeks we switchthat to sparkling water, and
(27:49):
guess what?
It worked, good it.
But he also had to make a choicethat every time I have the urge
I'm going to go journal aboutit.
Every time I feel tempted I'mgoing to pick up the phone and
open Voxer and talk to Meenuabout it and ask her for some
tips and reframes on how I wantto reframe my thoughts.
(28:09):
So you see there was a lot ofwork and repetitive choices.
You have to make a choice everyday when you're in that
situation.
It's not like you wake up andsay I want to be better and then
it just life is not happeningfor you.
You create it, you co-createlife with God, with the universe
, depending on what you want tosee and want to create each day.
Johnna (28:39):
I agree with that.
I know we mentioned boundariesearlier.
What would you say the role ofboundaries in compassionate
involvement, and how do we trainthe family members and the
friends to hold them effectivelyso that that person can seek
out the change that they need?
Meenu (28:53):
I think you can be really kind and let's hypothetically
assume this is the fourth timethey're bailing this person out
or they're helping this person,right?
Whoever?
This is, I think, anintervention and everybody
sitting down and saying, hey,like we really want you to get
better.
The reason why we've been doingthis is because we see the
(29:14):
potential.
We see that you've almoststarted doing it and then you
backtrack.
But we want you to know thatthis is it.
We love you.
We've done it one last time,but after this, it's on you.
It's on you, and if you do thisnext time, if this happens one
more time, I want you to knowthat we will still love you, but
(29:35):
the way we show you love willbe different.
Right, we're going to trustthat you may have to hit rock
bottom.
You may have to have moments ofgrowth and moments of pain for
you to want to change on yourown Right.
So you can literally be superkind, super compassionate and
have a very honest conversationand say this is the boundary.
Johnna (29:58):
Right, and I guess I would like, if I like, looking,
because I used to tell my momall the time when she would keep
doing this and like and I sawthe pain it was causing her as
well because nothing, you knowthat the actions weren't there.
There was, it was the samething, kind of in repeat motion,
for years, and I would tell her.
I was like, mom, you reallyneed to go to therapy.
I was like you need to figureout a way to cope with this too,
(30:20):
because this is becoming acodependent situation.
It's almost like she neededthat in her life to feel
important.
Meenu (30:27):
Yes, and it's really sad you say this, because another
thing that's ringing in my brainagain this is not about
boundaries, or this is not aboutaddiction or anything the
podcast is about, but just aquick side note is a lot of
people keep repeating toxicbehaviors and patterns because
it makes them feel important andsignificant, and I hate to say
(30:48):
this.
A lot of parents have kidsbecause it makes them feel
significant.
They don't have children forthe right reasons.
Johnna (30:52):
Yeah, yeah, to say this a lot of parents have kids
because it makes them feelsignificant.
They don't have children forthe right reasons, yeah, yeah, I
mean I made a choice a longtime ago like speaking on this
topic to not have children, notbecause I don't love and adore
children.
It was a choice I made for mebecause of personal.
You know, you know thoughts andthings like that which may be
weak, and I know you've made asimilar choice.
I've made a similar choice.
We should.
We should totally do like thatwe should do a podcast on that,
(31:12):
because I know a lot of peoplewhen they hear a woman say they
don't want children, especiallyin the South, I feel like the
first thought that some peoplehave is wow, you're really
selfish to not have a child andit's not.
And or, oh, you must hatechildren and it's like.
No, I love and adore children,like all my friends.
Children.
I love them.
I want them to go back home atthe end of the night.
(31:32):
That's exactly right.
Meenu (31:33):
That's exactly right and I think a lot of people have so
much shame and, admitting it, Iused to date this.
Oh my God.
I used to date this guy incollege and he would shame me
when I when I told him I don'tknow if I wanted to have
children.
This was when I was 20 yearsold.
I was a baby.
I'm 35 now.
I was 20.
(31:54):
And you'd be like how can awoman say that You're a woman,
you should have this.
So, because of shame, I feellike so many people can't even
say that.
Oh, I'm kind of on the fence orI'm thinking about it.
I'm thinking about thesefactors because there's so much
judgment and shame.
Unfortunately, that not onlycomes from men, but comes from
(32:17):
other women.
Johnna (32:18):
Yeah, there is.
Now it's getting better, likeI've noticed.
Like cause I?
You know, I had the samethoughts in my twenties as well.
Meenu (32:27):
And then it's getting better.
Johnna (32:28):
And then now like not to get off guys on topic, but I
mean it's just, it's a relevanttopic.
And now like not to get offguys on topic, but I mean it's
just, it's a relevant topic.
And, like you know, a lot of myfriends have had infertility
issues and like I will stillempathize with them.
But I also can't fully knowwhat that's like, because I've
never wanted something like that, so bad and not be able to
happen and I feel for my friendsbecause, like I'm like I will
(32:50):
be here for you.
And I feel for my friendsbecause, like I'm like I will be
here for you, I'll support youin any way I can.
But I don't.
I personally can't say I don'tknow what that feels like,
because I've never wanted that,and then it not happen.
Meenu (33:02):
No, absolutely Absolutely .
And that comes back full circle, right?
If you don't want anything sobad, it's hard to make it happen
.
Right?
And that goes with mentalhealth.
That goes with whether you'rean addict and you want to change
, whether you keep going back tojail and you don't want to,
whether you keep dating the samepeople but you don't want to.
Well, I'm sorry to say this,but at a very core level, you
(33:23):
have to want a different outcome.
Johnna (33:26):
Yeah, and would you say.
I guess, like a lot of people,stay in that cycle of what, no
matter what we're talking abouthere, whether, like you just
said, going back to the sametype of guy, going back to your
ex-boyfriend, going back to orstaying in a terrible job or
anything, would you say that'sbecause that's that familiar.
I can never say that word,familiarity.
Meenu (33:48):
There, you go.
Johnna (33:48):
I'm not going to go try.
It's because that and like,like I said, that childhood
trauma where maybe they wereused to chaos and they have to
have that to feel a sense ofnormalcy.
Meenu (33:59):
Absolutely.
And then for these people, letme tell you and when I say these
people, I don't want you guysto think that I'm putting them
down, I'm just, I used to be oneof those people Same same same.
It's coming from a lot ofgrowth and reflection, right,
and when I see them, I alsonotice that the unknown
territory is more scary for themthan the known pain.
(34:19):
They know that the suffering isgoing to hurt.
They they've been through it somany times but they know what's
going to hurt, how long it'sgoing to hurt, how painful it's
going to be.
They, they almost know that,right.
But healing and freedom theydon't know what to do with that
because they're not used to it.
I legit had a client this was in2022.
She said I want to change, butI'm really scared, like I have
(34:43):
no idea what my life looks likeif I don't have anxiety, if I
don't wake up stressed like on alevel 10 every day.
Yeah, if I'm not screaming atmy children, I don't wake up
stressed like on a level 10every day, if I'm not screaming
at my children, I don't knowwhat that looks like, right?
And so, because of that unknownelement and it's so scary,
because anything unknown isscary to the guess what
(35:05):
subconscious.
It's so scary to thesubconscious because we always
choose familiar patterns due tosafety.
So healing is unfamiliar tothem.
It's unknown to them.
Growth is unknown to safety, sohealing is unfamiliar to them.
It's unknown to them.
Growth is unknown to them.
So they're almost sabotagingand they keep staying in that.
So now this is where the realmagic happens is when they say
anything is better than this.
(35:25):
When they say that, thenthey're saying I accept any
other outcome except this pain.
That means they're ready forsomething else.
Johnna (35:34):
Do you think a person can get to that point if someone
is always there?
I don't want to say bailingthem out, because I don't know
if that's the correct term, butI guess quote unquote bailing
them out, if someone's alwaysbailing them out of their
situation, their trouble, theirchaos, their anxiety, whatever
it is, if someone's always doingthat.
I'll give an example.
(35:55):
So for me, like if I was likedating the same guy for a long
period of time, over and overand over, and I would go to the
same friend for years, over andover and over, and they never
said hey, john, I love youdearly, but it's been two, three
years.
We're not talking about thisanymore.
You, what was going to change?
Nothing.
I was going to go back, get myfeelings hurt, go run to my
(36:17):
friend, cry about it.
They were going to be like comehere, there, there, there,
there, and then what happens?
I go back, get hurt, go back tomy friend, and until I had no
one to talk to and sit in mypain with that, there was no
thought process.
Don't get me wrong.
I wasn't like oh, I love this,this is fun.
(36:41):
No, I get it, yeah.
Do you think that someone canhave that thought of I want to
change if someone is constantlynot letting go of them.
Meenu (36:48):
Meaning if you have somebody.
Are you saying if you have afriend or someone that's
constantly telling you?
Are you asking me if it's stillpossible to change?
Johnna (36:57):
Yeah, like, do you think that someone will still have
that realization of I need tochange.
I can't keep doing this If youalways have someone enabling you
.
Meenu (37:06):
Yes, because let me tell you, this Life is full of
surprises.
That person is there for youtoday.
You don't know that person isgoing to be there for you
tomorrow.
Of surprises that person isthere for you today.
You don't know if that personis going to be there for you
tomorrow, right, you don't knowif that person's going to change
their mind.
Everybody has a tolerance limit.
Everybody has a bandwidth.
Even I've seen the mostgenerous people, the more giving
people flip because somethinghas just flipped in their mind
and they're like I don't want todo this anymore, I don't want
(37:28):
to coddle them anymore, I don'twant to be there anymore.
It's exhausting.
So I've seen that happen and Iwill say the universe has a way
of bitch slapping you.
It's like you can't.
I don't think anybody can getout really without learning like
some big lessons in thislifetime.
You think you're escaping, butyou're good for now.
(37:51):
Sure, it feels like you'recushioned and you're safe and
you have people to bail you outand things.
But what happens when you getinto a relationship tomorrow?
What are you going to do thenwhen you have to clean up after
your shit and you have to showup as a husband and a father and
take ownership andresponsibility.
What are you going to say atthat time?
So I feel like life is full ofsurprises, the universe is full
(38:13):
of surprises.
Yes, you can have someone butlikely to answer your question.
If you continually havesomebody that's doing that,
you're not going to get better,right?
Johnna (38:24):
Agreed, you're not.
You're not.
What is the difference?
Or how can we help someonewithout enabling yeah?
Meenu (38:36):
I do this sometimes with people is I'll just have
conversations.
I'll just say there was.
There is this friend of minethat had a conversation with me
a few months ago.
She complains about the sameperson.
It's another friend.
Right, they trigger each other.
Great Girl friendships triggereach other.
(38:57):
She constantly complains abouther.
I said hey, I love you dearlyand we've been friends for 28
years.
I love you dearly.
No man has ever triggered youthis much.
But this person clearly istriggering you so much.
But I feel very negativewhenever I keep talking about
(39:18):
this and it's starting to feelnegative.
Can we say change the subjectand can we talk about something
else?
Okay, Because I've alreadygiven you feedback on what you
can do with this other friend.
I've already given you feedbackon how you can set boundaries.
I've given you tips, tricks, onhow you can protect your energy
.
And if you make a choice thatyou don't want to do that and
(39:38):
you want to keep complaining,you can do that, but I'm not
your person.
Johnna (39:42):
OK, so it's just a polite conversation to just you
know, be like I care.
But this is, and I'll say, likeyou know, my friends used to do
that to me when I was obsessedwith a guy for many, many years
she finally got to the pointwhere she was like listen, I
love you, but my advice hasn'tchanged.
But my advice hasn't changed.
Yeah, so I really wouldappreciate it if we didn't talk
about this anymore.
Yeah, because it was disruptingher peace and I completely
(40:03):
respected that and I understoodit and, honestly, without her
saying that to me, like I said,I probably would have stayed in
the cycle.
Meenu (40:09):
Hmm, and sometimes you have to.
I know this sounds reallybrutal, but sometimes you have
to kind of get hurt to like getit yeah.
And whether that's a friendrejecting you, rejecting your
complaints, rejecting yourenergy, something has to happen
for that change to happen on adeep level, Almost yeah.
Johnna (40:30):
Would you say there's a different.
Well, I know there's adifference, but, like, I feel
like there are true manipulatorswhere they know how to
manipulate a situation andcontinue to get that support and
where someone will continue toenable, but it's not really
enabling, because they're doingit on purpose to manipulate.
So how can we identify?
I guess it would be learnedhelplessness, like I'm going to
(40:50):
be helpless so that someone canhelp me, but it's not.
And then there's the peoplethat truly that they don't
recognize it.
It's a subconscious thing thatthey're doing it and they're
because people aren't lettingthem hit rock bottom.
So how do we, like,differentiate that learned
helplessness and to know, okay,look, they actually really could
help themselves?
Meenu (41:10):
Oh my God, Sometimes I think you're psychic.
Are you sure you're not?
Because me and another bestfriend today we were talking
about manipulative people and wewere talking exactly about
somebody we know that acts likea wounded bird all the time,
acts like you know they needsupport all the time, they need
(41:31):
help all the time, but they'rejust fine, but they act like
that.
So I did this like a littletest in a in a friendship that
that's been coming up in my liferecently and I saw if they ever
wanted to just hang out withoutme doing anything for them.
(41:54):
Right, do you just want to goand have coffee?
Do?
Do you just want to, you know,meet me for lunch?
Do you just want to catch upwithout me giving A value, b,
resources, c advice, like, doyou just want to be my friend?
And I started observing becauseI'm a very silent observer.
(42:15):
When I get hurt or annoyed or Ifeel manipulated or played, I
am somebody that keeps quiet fora long time and I get into like
observing mode and everythingis under a microscope for the
next few weeks Under my radarright, yeah.
And I just saw things so clearlyand I saw that I was being used
(42:39):
and I was just like I'm played.
But you know what?
I caught it early and I'm gladthat I caught it early, because
now I can have boundaries andnow I don't have to give into
where they're, they're notwounded, they are just fine, and
they only need me because theyneed something.
So a quick way to spot it isare they just wanting to hang
(43:00):
out with you for your genuineenergy, for your kind heart, to
just be with you and spend timewith you, or is it always like I
want to hang out with you?
Hey, by the way, can you dothis favor?
Can you do this for me?
Obviously, they're trying tooutsmart you.
They're trying to say oh, Iwant her to think that I'm
hanging out with her because Ilike her, but but also like I'm
(43:23):
getting this thing out of herright.
Johnna (43:25):
No, that makes complete sense, because I, when you were
saying that, I was thinkingabout a few people in my life
like that, I was like, yeah,that checks out, that checks out
.
What, um would you say?
Is it ever okay to walk awayfrom someone struggling?
Meenu (43:46):
Yes, and that depends on your moral and ethical code and
that also depends on yourpersonal bandwidth.
I will never I mean unless afriend asks me for advice or a
client asks me for advice I willnever say break up with him, do
this, do that, like no.
This is toxic, becauseeverybody's bandwidth is very
different and everybody's abusetolerance is different, so
(44:06):
tolerance is different.
So I would check in and ask,whoever that person is, who's
getting burnt out or gettingexhausted, that how do I feel?
Am I feeling like I'm stillholding space with overflow?
Or do I have bitterness orresentment in being of service?
Or am I getting a kick in myego and a boost inside myself
(44:29):
whenever I save somebody?
Why is this happening?
And why do I keep doing this,all these questions, to do some
self-reflection.
And if it doesn't feel good, ifit doesn't feel like it's
coming from overflow and agenuine place of love and it's
coming at a selfish cost,believe me when I say it is
selfish sometimes to helpsomeone, it is because you're
(44:51):
doing it, because you want tofeel better.
I agree, I can't tell you howmany times it has felt so hard
for me to not help, like it'sfelt so hard to not do it,
because I didn't want to beselfish.
Johnna (45:06):
Right, no, I completely agree.
So how then can we set thoseboundaries to not feel guilty if
you walk away from someonestruggling?
Because I think that'ssomething like that my mom
struggled with is that she feltthe guilt, like you mentioned
earlier, and she, she, shegenuinely thought my sister was
struggling, so she felt guiltywalking away from that.
(45:28):
And how could she have, at thattime, set better boundaries and
not felt that guilt?
Meenu (45:34):
I think guilt and shame dies literally dies when you say
it as it is Meaning hey, Ifucked up when I raised you and
this is where I messed up.
This is where I did wrong.
This is what I should have done, but instead I did this because
(45:55):
I wasn't self-aware and Ididn't know better and I was
dysregulated, so I was comingfrom a place of what can I do
and I didn't think through it.
However, you're an adult, I'man adult.
I have seen again remember,behavior is a language.
You want to look at patterns,not feelings, right?
I have seen a pattern thatevery time I've helped, it's not
(46:18):
gotten better.
I've seen evidence and proofthat every time I've helped,
it's not gotten better.
I've seen evidence and proofthat every time I've intervened,
you've not grown, you've notchanged.
So I want to try somethingdifferent and I want to take a
backseat and I'm going to trustyou to figure this out.
Johnna (46:35):
Oh, I love that.
I love that Because that's notnegative, that's not saying
screw you, I'm done.
I love that because that's avery mature way to have that
conversation and that otherperson probably will still be
mad, but not as mad, becausethat conversation didn't take a
turn you can say my love isnever going to change, right,
(47:02):
but my support is going tochange.
Meenu (47:03):
The way I want to hold space is going to change,
because I want to.
I've done these things andthese patterns and this has not
served you and this has notserved me.
And I also don't want to be ina place where I am doing it to
appease myself.
I don't want to do it out ofguilt and shame, because I've
now owned to my mistakes.
I've owned up to all the wrongthings that I've done.
I don't want to carry it and Idon't want to do it from that
place.
If I do it, I want to do it outof love and I feel like I've
(47:25):
already done it and it's notdifferent.
Johnna (47:28):
Right, I love that.
No, I really I appreciate yousaying that.
Yeah, what would you say?
The emotional cost to theperson doing all the saving
would be?
Meenu (47:38):
Oh my God, I can't even, I can't even begin.
Johnna (47:47):
Well, I haven't.
So save that, because thismight help you trigger something
in what you're going to say.
Cause my next question to youis going to be can trying to
help that person too much createtrauma for either person?
Meenu (47:56):
I mean absolutely Trauma.
I like to say it will totallystop the growth of the victim
who is going through this issueI don't even want to say victim,
let's say client.
That's like going through thatperson that's going through this
and for the other person, itstops them from being validated
(48:18):
Because, remember, every timethey help and they say thank you
, you're such a good person forhelping me.
They're being validated thatthey're a good person, they're a
good citizen, they're a helpfulmother, they're a helpful
parent.
So that sense of validation,guess what?
They're going to have to get itfrom somewhere else.
They're going to have toself-validate and see if I don't
(48:39):
help this person, if I don't dothis, am I able to regulate
myself?
Am I still able to validatemyself?
So it's not really a traumaresponse, but it's almost
removing certain parts thatyou're used to, certain
addictions that you're used to,which is maybe being seen and
being validated and beingappreciated.
It's learning to live withoutthat and asking am I still
(49:01):
enough if I don't get all thesethings from outside?
Johnna (49:04):
Yeah, 1000%.
No, I appreciate this topic hasbeen great.
Now I do have.
I've been doing rapid fires atthe end of my podcast lately.
And I want to do a rapid firewith you.
It's a game called helper orenabler.
So it's quick answers, don'toverthink.
It's just the first thing thatcomes to your brain, usually
just a one word or a sentenceOkay, boundaries Easy or hard
(49:27):
for you?
Easy.
Do you believe people canchange?
Yes, ever enabled someone andregretted it?
Yes, what's harder saying no orwatching someone fail?
Yes, what's harder saying no orwatching someone fail.
Watching someone fail, do youfix or feel first, feel Ever
(49:50):
ghosted a toxic situationinstead of confronting it?
No, never.
I'm very communicative.
Same girl, I communicate toomuch, and you, you know that my
texts are ran down sometimes,but anyways, moving on, most
overused excuse you hear fromenablers when you say enablers,
(50:12):
you mean the ones that arehelping the victims, yeah, and
they keep enabling them to keepdoing what they're doing.
Meenu (50:18):
Oh, if I don't do this, who will?
Johnna (50:21):
Yep, one thing you wish people knew about helping too
much.
Meenu (50:28):
That they're ruining them .
They're ruining them.
They're ruining their growth,yep, their self-trust, their
confidence.
They're destroying it.
Johnna (50:37):
What's your personal red flag for enabling destroying it
?
Meenu (50:42):
What's your personal red flag for enabling Ego?
They're doing an art of ego.
It's all about you.
It's not about them, it's aboutyou.
Johnna (50:48):
Can you love someone and still walk away?
Yes, one word to describe whatenabling feels like To me.
Meenu (50:59):
Suffocation.
Johnna (51:01):
Helping Heart or head first Heart Is guilt, ever
useful.
Meenu (51:08):
Yes, Give us an example when guilt would be useful.
Well, let's just say guilt hasbeen real useful for me when
I've eaten like big meals theselast few weeks and I always like
to have a sweet treat after themeal and I'd be like, oh my God
, I ate so much, so I would feela little bit guilt.
(51:32):
And then I walked after mymeals.
That really helped with myglucose and my blood sugar and I
never had crashes.
I felt great.
So I would say guilt sometimesis useful.
Johnna (51:40):
And then one thing that always makes you want to save
someone.
Meenu (51:46):
When they're willing.
Johnna (51:49):
When they say I'm ready.
Then you're wanting to savethem.
Meenu (51:53):
I'm obsessed.
I'm obsessed when someone saysthey're ready, can't stop me
what's the hardest let go momentyou've seen.
What is let go moment.
Johnna (52:03):
Like someone letting them finally go and do it
themselves.
Meenu (52:10):
I mean, it's happened every day with my clients.
So I would say, working withaddicts it's the hardest, it's
the hardest Working with addictsBut's the hardest when I had to
.
It's the hardest Working withaddicts.
But let me actually top you upeven more Working with really,
really anxiously attached peoplein relationships, yeah, and
(52:31):
then I tell them, instead ofspiraling and contacting them,
sit with yourself, you know, anduse these tools to regulate it
was.
It's so hard for me to let gobecause I almost want to tell
them you don't text them, youcan text me.
But then that's also not goodbecause that's enabling them.
(52:54):
Exactly Because they're stillstaying anxious, that's right,
and they're still.
I'm still coddling them.
Now their partner is not doingit, I'm doing it.
So I had to be like you canreach out to me, but you instead
do these exercises and, onceyou've regulated, reach out to
me and tell me what you did.
Now that was very empowering.
So that letting go moment isreally hard for me, because I
know how difficult it is toregulate when you're spiraling.
Johnna (53:25):
But at the same time, it's also very rewarding because
I've seen them do it.
Yep, no, I love that.
Well, thank you again, asalways, for doing these podcasts
with me and sharing yourknowledge and wealth of
everything that you do.
Guys, thank you for listening.
If you like this podcast, shareit with a friend, go write mean
news podcast on transcend intowellness and mine on Babbel's
nonsense.
And until next time, until nexttime, guys.
Meenu (53:40):
until next time.
Thank you so much, guys, andthank you, jonna, for the most
amazing questions we have.
I have heard so much feedbacknow in our podcast and everybody
has said you guys have greatchemistry.
Johnna (53:52):
Same thing I know I get it all the time.
I'll be like I just, and thenand y'all keep that like we love
when you reach out to us or dmus and let us know what topics
you want us to discuss, becausesometimes we're fresh out of
ideas and when y'all give us atopic that you want to hear, we
will do some research and wewill get some questions together
and we'll do a podcast.
Meenu (54:12):
Yeah, we love doing this.
So, yes, keep us posted.
Thank you so much, guys, fortuning in, and we will
definitely see you more infuture episodes.
All right, guys bye, bye.
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