Emotional Immaturity vs Manipulation: How to Tell, What to Do, and When to Walk Away w/ Meenu

#193: Ever felt crazy for speaking up—then wondered if you were actually being managed? We go straight at the blurry line between emotional immaturity and manipulation, mapping the real signals that separate missing skills from a need for control. With honesty and a lot of lived experience, we unpack how anxiety, attachment styles, and poor regulation can fuel reactions that hurt, and how tactics like gaslighting, love bombing, and guilt hooks keep you doubting yourself.

We share language that works under pressure—the “I feel/When you/What I need” framework—and explain why timing and tone matter when emotions run hot. You’ll hear how to read the response: curiosity and accountability signal emotional immaturity with room to grow; while, denial, deflection, and inconsistent follow-through point to manipulation. We also challenge the myth that love is enough, explore the double standards of “situationship” control without commitment, and walk through when to set firmer boundaries, document patterns, or make the hard choice to leave.

If you’re ready to protect your peace, start taking notes on behavior, and rebuild trust in your own perception, this conversation gives you a grounded roadmap. You’ll learn how to anchor in your values, separate affection from access, and become harder to move with shame or urgency. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs clarity, and leave a review telling us the sign that clicked for you—what pattern are you done ignoring?

You can now send us a text to ask a question or review the show. We would love to hear from you!

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
What is up everyone?
Welcome back to another episodeof the Babble's Nonsense podcast
and menu is on today fromTranscend into Wellness Podcast.
Today we're diving intosomething that comes up in
almost every relationship atsome point, whether that be
romantic, platonic, or evenfamily members.
And that's the differencebetween emotional immaturity and
manipulation.
They often get confused, butthey're not the same thing.

(00:20):
Emotional immaturity looks likeavoidance, shutting down, or not
having the tools to handlefeelings, while manipulation
looks like twisting reality,using guilt, or making you
question yourself.
One comes from a lack of skills,the other comes from the need of
control.
We're going to unpack how totell the difference, what signs
to look for, and mostimportantly, how to respond.
Because whether you're dealingwith an immature partner who can

(00:41):
grow or someone who isdeliberately manipulating you,
your response really doesmatter.
We will also share some quickfire scenarios at the end of the
podcast so that you can startspotting the difference in real
life.
And hopefully by the end of thisepisode, you'll know how to
protect your peace, check yourown responses, and walk away
from confusion with clarity.
And as always, guys, this is notintended to give you advice.

(01:02):
This is just our own storiesthat we are sharing and
questions that I have for manyof you.
So if you are into this type oftopic, take a lesson.

(01:36):
Babbles nonsense.
I have so many questions.
Today we are going to talk abouthow to spot the difference, or
can you spot the differencebetween manipulation and
emotional immaturity?
Because honestly, the outcome tome is the same at the end of it

(02:00):
all.

SPEAKER_03 (02:01):
I mean, the end of it all, we're screwed.
Long story short, but the end ofit all, people suffer.
Like when people other peopledon't do the inner work and
other people don't haveself-awareness, the rest of the
population suffers.
The end.

SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
You don't even have to, you don't even have to
listen to the rest of thepodcast.
There's there's there it is.
The end.
Turn it off.
I'm just kidding, don't turn itoff.
But yeah, I wanted to talk aboutthis because, you know, as I've
gotten older, the more therapy Igo to, the more life coaching I
do, the more, you know,obviously I'm growing as a
person.
I used to be a person that wasso afraid of change.

(02:35):
Like even in like life, like itwould just freak me out.
Like I don't move furniturearound in my house.
And I was so afraid to changewho I was.
But the older I get and the morelike things happen, whether that
be in relationships orfriendships, I'm like, you know
what?
I don't want to be the sameperson I am today in five years.
I want to be better than I was.
Like, I obviously don't want togo backwards, but I want to be
better than I was, you know.

(02:56):
And if I'm not doing that, I'mnot growing.
I don't want to be stuck in anemotional, immature place
myself.
So I wanted to have thisconversation with you.

SPEAKER_03 (03:06):
Yeah.
And honestly, kudos to you forrecognizing that.
And also kudos to you forwanting to change because it
takes a lot of guts to do that.
And it's very scary.
Any any type of change for aperson like you that likes
predictability, that likescertainty and things like that,
it's it's very hard to change.
And it takes a lot to even say,I want to change.
So I think you're already at thefirst step.

(03:28):
So you're already there.

SPEAKER_00 (03:29):
But guys, that does not mean that it, like she said,
it's not easy.
So, like, just to give somebackground before we start,
like, if you don't know me andyou're listening to this
podcast, like I have highanxiety most of the time.
And I just overthink everythingon a day-to-day basis, which you
know, that's something Me Newhas helped me a lot with because
you know, overthinking, she haslet me know is like obviously

(03:51):
you're staying in the future,you're not like allowing
yourself to live in the presentby overthinking everything and
you're just telling yourselfstories that haven't even
happened.

unknown (03:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (04:00):
So like trying to change, you know, your way out
of that is definitely hard, butit's something I, you know, I'm
obviously gonna work outprobably till the day I die
because it's just ingrained inus subconsciously and all that
other jazz.
But to get on to this topic, canyou tell us or explain to us the
difference between whatemotional immaturity is and what

(04:20):
manipulation is?
And I guess we should say, like,this could be in any type of
relationship, whether that be aromantic friendship, um, parent,
sibling, whatever relationship.

SPEAKER_03 (04:31):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, well, there's so much totalk about here because I feel
like y'all need to take notes.
I'm kidding.
I feel like when you've whenyou're in your mid-30s, like me
and Jana, having so muchexperience with so many
different types of people,having been in so many
relationships, you are forced tolearn what these things are so

(04:52):
you can better see for yourselfand protect yourself and choose
with disarmament when you'removing on, whether it's a friend
or a romantic partner, whateverit is.
So I think this episode is goingto be so useful, whether you're
in your 40s and single ormarried, or you're struggling in
your friend group and wanting toknow who's toxic, or you're
struggling in your relationshipor partnership, whatever the

(05:13):
situation is, I think thisinformation we're about to talk
about is so significant becauseobviously all this touches on
self-awareness and mentalhealth.
So emotional immaturity isgenerally when a person
struggles to either identify,process, or regulate their
emotions in a healthy way and inan age-appropriate way, right?

(05:37):
Some of the signs of emotionalimmaturity would be like poor
emotional regulation.
So emotional regulation is theability to process anxiety, the
ability to process stress, theability to process trauma.
So that doesn't mean the absenceof anxiety, absence of stress.
We're not talking about nothaving any of these things, but

(05:57):
when you have these things, howare you able to move through
that?
So that's the that is emotionalregulation, the concept of doing
it.

SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
Would you say, for an example of that, like I've
been seeing a lot on TikToklately, like um the attachment
styles, like avoided attachment,anxious attachment, like those
type things where you can'tregulate those attachments.
Like, like, for example, like anavoidant, they they yeah, like
an avoidant attachment, youknow, they can't handle their
feelings, so they just run.

(06:26):
Where in an anxious attachment,like they can't handle their
emotions, so they bug and theyplead and they beg and they
chase.

SPEAKER_03 (06:33):
And they wanna and they chase and they want to
communicate desperately becauseyeah, all that, whatever you're
saying, even the attachmentstyles, it's actually if you
look at it in the emotionspectrum, because I my specialty
is like working with humanemotions.
So when you look at it in theemotion spectrum, it's all about
you not being able to regulateyour emotions, right?

SPEAKER_00 (06:54):
Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 (06:54):
So you're either running or you're chasing or
you're avoiding.
So you're taking one of thosethree, right?
So that's all about, you know,and it can stem from childhood,
right?
It could be maybe your parentswere avoidant, your dad was
avoidant, your mom was avoidant,or one of them was anxious.
Like you never know whattriggers and what sets you off
to either be an anxious oravoidant or fearful.

(07:17):
But some of the, like I said,signs are like black and white
thinking, um, avoidingresponsibility, not knowing how
to process your feelings, andthen very defensive and
reactive, like when somebodygives you feedback or when
someone gives you constructivecriticism and you are very quick
to react and you're not justpausing and and staying and

(07:38):
listening to them.
Your body can handle it.
Like that's a classic sign oflike emotional dysregulation.
And then generally, when peopleare very controlling or when you
are very controlling, you onlywant a certain outcome, you're
not gonna accept anything elsethat that shows like lack of
tools because you don't have thetools to accept other outcomes,
which is emotionaldysregulation, and then of

(07:59):
course, being very defensive isalso emotional dysregulation.
So, emotional immaturity is morelike how do I say it?
It's like emotional immaturityis more childlike, right?
Because it's immaturity, butmanipulation is more
skill-based.

SPEAKER_00 (08:19):
Okay, right.
That I mean, it makes sensebecause you have to kind of know
what you're doing, and that'swhere I think it comes it
becomes difficult to just todiscern between the two because
sometimes like immaturity, likeyou feel like when someone's
older and they are having thoseimmature behaviors, you're like,
you have to know what you'redoing, right?

SPEAKER_03 (08:38):
Yeah, I think you would be really, really shocked.
Like, you would be reallyshocked.
One of my closest friends wasdating someone, you know, much
older than her, like well intohis 40s, and he could not
regulate himself.
He could not, and he had a greatjob.
Like, he could not, for the lifeof him, regulate his feelings.

(08:59):
So he would come to her, reachout to her constantly to
regulate him, right?
So it that's why it's emotionalimmaturity because it's it's
it's immature, it's not ageappropriate.
These things happen when you're60, 70, 80, 20.
It doesn't matter how old youare, like if you don't know and
understand how to regulate,you're gonna have that problem
for the rest of your life,right?

(09:20):
So that's again a sign ofimmaturity.
We can say it's a lack ofinformation, lack of tools.
So for people that areemotionally immature, there is
still so much room to learn andgrow.
And honestly, there is stillhope because they're still
immature, which means you canbecome mature, like you can
learn how to do these things.

(09:41):
However, manipulation is a wholeother ball game.
Like people that aremanipulative manipulative, most
of the times know that they aremanipulative in order to get a
desired outcome that they preferin the presence of hurting other
people.
Like it's so they don't mind atthe cost of hurting other

(10:01):
people's feelings or walkingover them or negating their
experience.
They still want to get what theywant.
So manipulation is more likecunning and cruel, honestly,
than emotional immaturity.
So manipulation signs are how doyou spot them?
Is like they'll take somethingthat you say and they'll twist

(10:21):
your own words.
So that's a classic sign ofmanipulation.
They play victim a lot withmanipulation because they can't
take accountability, they theycan't say, I am the problem.
So they say, Oh, poor me, thisis happening to me.
This is happening, what do I do?
Like, I can't help this, this ismy life.
No, you can literally wake uptomorrow and choose to like have

(10:42):
a different life, you know, andhave different life.
Like, you can do that.
They use guilt or shame often tomanipulate a situation into
their will.
Jana's making faces, you guys.
Like, this is not this is notvideo.

SPEAKER_00 (10:55):
No, it's we're gonna have to eventually one day do
video podcasts and just uploadour Zooms because like y'all
have to understand, like, whenwe do these podcasts, we're not
we don't talk beforehand at all.
I have my questions for her, shehas her notes because all we do
is say, here's the topic we'regonna cover.
So this is almost like a therapysession for me when she's
talking, and I'm almost likeover here going, Yeah, yeah,

(11:18):
uh-huh.
Check, check, makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 (11:22):
Okay, yeah, move on.
It's also inconsistent words andactions.
So sometimes people make fakepromises.
They'll say, I'm gonna do this.
You watch, I'm gonna change, I'mgonna be better for you, and
things like that.
But then they start and thenthey don't continue.
There's no consistency.
So that's because they want tokeep you and they want to get
you, so their actions and wordsnever match, right?

(11:44):
And then this is a classic onewith manipulation.
They're gaslighting you, theygaslight you.
So if you don't know whatgaslighting means, it means
invalidating your experience ofa situation or trauma.
So if you're saying, hey, thishappened and this really hurt my
feelings, you said this onFriday.
I wish you hadn't said that.
Gaslighting, a gas person thatgaslights you would be like, no,

(12:08):
no, no, you're too sensitive,you're overthinking it.
I didn't say it like that.
I didn't mean it like that.
Instead of actually saying, I'msorry, you know, I probably
messed up.
I shouldn't have used that tone,I should have used a different
tone.
You see, that's accountability.
So Right.

SPEAKER_00 (12:23):
And then, guys, just so you know, like there's a lot
of buzzwords like narcissism andgaslighting, and we're not
talking about like everybody,like, no one has to agree with
you.
What she's saying is like, like,you don't like let's say for
let's take the example, someone,you know, says something to you
and hurt your feelings onFriday.
Even if if you truly don'tbelieve you hurt someone's
feelings, it's still okay toacknowledge the person and go,

(12:45):
I, you know, that was not myintention.
If I did hurt your feelings,that was never my intention.
Let me try to reword it orsomething like that.
Like it's still takingaccountability, even if you
still don't feel you didsomething wrong, you don't have
to put the other person down fortheir feelings because
perception is everything,perception is real.
And if someone perceivessomething, and it happens to me

(13:06):
quite a bit, and I was I'll takeaccountability for that.
Like I'm a very direct personand it comes across as quote
unquote rude or blunt a lot.
And so I have to backtrack a lotand say, I am so sorry, I did
not mean it the way it came out.
You know, this is what Iactually meant, and then and
then we're all good, but I willnever, well, I won't say I'll
never, but I I try my best notto go up to someone and go,

(13:27):
Well, you're just gonna have tolearn how to take me.
That's just how I am, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (13:30):
I mean, that's entitlement, you know.
Like, and we we are not like Imean, I'm not entitled.
I know you're not entitled, andwe all, even though we're doing
the self-work and we're growingand learning, we also make
mistakes.
Sometimes I may say somethingthat could be snappy to someone
or too blunt for someone else,like because they're used to
some another level ofcommunication, and I'm used to

(13:50):
being like you said, I'm alsopretty honest and blunt.
So we're we're used to that.
So we're pretty thick skinnedwhen it comes to that, but other
people may not be, and thatdoesn't mean there is something
wrong with them, it's just thatthey are exposed to something
different and we're exposed tosomething different.
So, like you said, likegaslighting is it would be like
completely invalidating yourfeelings, your experience,

(14:11):
right?
Another classic sign ofmanipulation is love bombing and
withdrawal.
So when somebody wants somethingfrom you, they tend to be very
loving, they tend to show up,they give you gifts, they give
you time, they give you energy.
And then once they get you orget you to do something that
they wanted you to do, then theywithdraw because that's a sign

(14:32):
of manipulation, because theywant you to believe that, oh, I
love you, I'm here for you.
But actually, in reality,they're not that person and they
can never back that upconsistently.

SPEAKER_00 (14:42):
Something I was reading about that, where even
if it's not love bombing andsomeone like gives you a lot of
attention or affection orsomething, and then their
punishment is to withdraw thatum affection or you know, love
for you.
Like, and again, it's so hard todiscern.
Like, I want to believe the bestin people, and I want to believe

(15:03):
that someone's not sitting therethinking, and maybe they're not
thinking that they're trying tobe manipulative, but they're
they've just done this behaviorso long that it's just
secondhand nature.
So it's not maybe they're notsitting there plotting on the
couch, going, How can I get thisperson to do what I want them to
do?
Maybe it's just so ingrained inthem, but they're just a
manipulative behavior.

(15:25):
And like, how do you uh we'llget there?
Okay, continue.

SPEAKER_03 (15:30):
Yeah, no, there's so much to talk about this, right?
And then, like, again, anotherpoint is they avoid
accountability.
Like, so people that know thatthey're manipulative.
Again, there's consciousmanipulation, there's
unconscious manipulations.
It's what we're gonna talk aboutafterwards.
But conscious manipulators, thisthe traits that I listed, they
are conscious manipulators.
Okay, they acquireaccountability, they love bomb

(15:51):
you, they withdraw from youbecause they've gotten what they
want, they play victim, they useguilt, they use shame.
And those are people that aresaying, okay, I have a desired
outcome, so this is the way Iwant to show up to get what I
want.
So consciously, they're playingchess with you.
Okay, right.
However, this is the problem.
Now I'm telling you this.

(16:12):
Now you you're aware of all thisand these traits, right?
This is the sad part.
Okay.
The sad part is if you are not amanipulator, you will not
recognize manipulation.

SPEAKER_00 (16:25):
Right.
Because you, like I just said,like you don't want to sit
there, like, even when you went,even when we talk about it, I'm
sitting here thinking about pastexperiences, and I want to go, I
don't want to believe someonesat there consciously and was
like, this is what I'm going todo to get her to do XYZ.
Like, I don't want to believethat, even if it is true.

SPEAKER_03 (16:44):
Right.
And you know that they justifyit.
So the manipulators, the waythey justify it is they'll say,
Well, I love you and I want thebest for both of us.
That's why I did it.
But that does that's nothealthy, though.
That's control, though, right?
I mean, you're not beingauthentic, you're you're kind of
playing chess to get what youwant.
So you can you can say, Well, Ididn't, I didn't, uh, I didn't

(17:04):
mean to stab you.
That was not my intention, like,but you still did, and it's
still hard, and there's stillblood.
So Right.

SPEAKER_00 (17:13):
So, what about the unconscious manipulator?
How do you I mean, is that whereyou maybe picked it up in
childhood, and then that's justkind of the behavior that you've
had, and maybe you truly don'trecognize that you're
manipulating someone?
Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 (17:26):
So, unconscious manipulation can come from from
your parents most of the times.
Like if your mom says, you know,oh, this makes me really sad, or
she passive aggressively becomessad when you don't show up in a
certain way, and she shuts youdown when you're not a certain
way, or you don't get certaingrades, instead of actually
communicating with you andtelling you that, hey, I want
you to get good grades, but sheshuts down and she withdraws.

(17:49):
So then you start learning,you're like, Oh, okay, so if mom
withdraws, then I have to dothis.
Okay.
So withdrawal means I have to dothis.
So then you start weaponizingand using that in your
relationships in adulthood, likewithdrawing from your partner to
get what you want.
You see what I'm trying to say?

(18:11):
Because that was exposed so muchto you when you were growing up,
and nobody told you that that istoxic.
Nobody told you that's wrong.
Nobody told you, but when you'regrowing up, you're repeating
these behaviors in yourrelationships and friendships,
and people are like, oh my God,you're you're manipulating me.
You're you're toxic and this andthat.
And then you're if you recognizethat, you can always change,

(18:34):
right?
That that is something that Ialways believe.
Like, no matter how toxicsomebody is, a narcissist, many
manipulate manipulator.
Like, I feel like if yourecognize that and you feel
icked out by your own behaviorand you want to change, you can
change.
The problem is a lot of peopledon't want to change, right?

(18:55):
A lot of people are very much intheir comfort with their
behaviors because guess what?

SPEAKER_00 (18:59):
The problem is, it has gotten them other things,
and it works for them, and theydon't see a problem with it when
it's getting them what theywant.

SPEAKER_03 (19:07):
No, yeah, because it's gotten them a lot of
things, yeah.
You know, maybe it's gotten themsignificance, it's gotten them
sympathy, it's gotten themfriendships, maybe it even got
them a job.
You know, a lot of peoplemanipulate in job interviews,
yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (19:20):
You know, they I guess I just can't relate.
And I'm not gonna say I've neverunconsciously manipulated
because I don't know, I don't Idon't feel like I have, but I
guess I can't relate in thesense of like if I'm hurting
someone that I really careabout, like I don't see how I
can't look inward and go, evenin the moment, if I don't
understand it, like why I can'tself-reflect and be like, why is
why is that person hurting?

(19:41):
Like, talk to a friend, talk toa therapist, talk to a coach,
and be like, this is thesituation.
Like, can you point out somethings that like that I'm not
seeing that maybe I hurt someoneelse or something like that?
You know what I'm saying?
Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 (19:54):
Yeah, I think that's also because like Jonna, you're
also very self-aware.
And not only are you self-aware,you're also pretty
self-critical.
You know, and you a lot, likeyou you really reflect a lot and
you really think about okay,what have I done wrong, or maybe
I shouldn't have said this.
You in fact over apologize, andI've told you that many times,
like not to do that.
Like, you don't have toapologize, you don't have to

(20:16):
over overstate things becauseyou really, really your your
heart is really that pure, andyou don't want to intentionally
hurt anyone, right?
With you so many times, and yousometimes overdo your apology
just so that you're not you knowhurting someone.

SPEAKER_00 (20:34):
I know, I know it's a it's that that I gotta work
on.
That I gotta work on.
I know.

SPEAKER_03 (20:39):
So to question, right?
To answer, to go into it, it itreally you can learn this from
anyone.
You you can learn it from aparent, you can learn it from a
grandparent.
And if if you see somebodygetting what they want and
they're using manipulation toget what they want, and you're
seeing that it's working andyou're seeing that it's
successful, then sometimes youstart thinking, like, maybe I

(21:00):
should just do that, maybe Ishould just use that, maybe it's
not so bad.
And then that translates into somany areas, and then that
becomes a problem because theproblem is when you're
manipulating, you're notauthentic.
So you lose a sense of who youreally are, and you lose a sense
of source within you becauseyou're trying to get what you

(21:21):
want.
You're so attached to theoutcome, you've forgotten your
fundamental character in yournature.

SPEAKER_00 (21:26):
Yeah.
No, I agree with that.
I agree with that a lot.
Um, are all manipulativebehaviors intentional, or can um
they sometimes stem from thatemotional immaturity where
they're not fully aware?
Or maybe it's like they havethat avoidant behavior, you
know, because there's so manydifferent, like I've been trying
to like study attachment styles,and gosh, there's so many.

(21:48):
There's like fearful avoidant,um dismissive avoidant.
Um, and then so it's like you weall have these attachment styles
ingrained in us from childhoodthat are subconscious that we
probably don't even recognizewhat they are or what they're
doing until you study them.
And then so would you say thatall like because they kind of
cross over.

SPEAKER_03 (22:08):
Not all are not all are intentional to answer your
question.
Okay, a lot of people, somepeople don't even know that
they're doing this.

SPEAKER_00 (22:15):
Right.
That's why I was like, because Iknow that I have I lean more
towards an anxious attachmentstyle.
I actually took a quiz andyou'll laugh at this, maybe you
won't.
I actually took a quiz because Iwas like learning about them,
and it said that I had a secureattachment style.
And I was like, what?
What me?
Secure?
Okay, but then it said that youcan have secondary attachment

(22:36):
styles when you're triggered.
So if you're not in the rightrelationship, then you're second
like you're you're acting likewhatever you would have.
Like, so in my childhood, itwould be an anxious attachment.
I'm actually I when I read aboutthem, I lean between anxious and
avoidant.

SPEAKER_03 (22:51):
That's so funny because I also lean, so I'm
naturally very secure, but Ihave been with partners, and
some of them have triggeredanxious attachment styles, and
some of them have triggeredavoidant.
Isn't that we're the sameperson?
Yeah, even even with when you'rewith different people, they can
trigger different attachmentstyles within you.

(23:11):
Yeah.
And again, like you're you maynot be consciously aware when
you're being triggered, but thatcan definitely happen.

SPEAKER_00 (23:18):
And why is it so important for us to?
I know we're not talking aboutattachment styles, that's a
whole nother podcast, but why isit so important for us to know
which one we're dealing with,whether it be manipulation or
emotional immaturity?

SPEAKER_03 (23:32):
I think it's important because if you
especially want thatrelationship with that somebody
to work, if you want thatfriendship to work, if you want
that marriage to work, you haveto be able to communicate.
And how are you going tocommunicate if you don't know
whether they're beingemotionally mature or they're

(23:53):
straight up manipulating you?
Like you don't know.
How will you communicate that?
You can't tell a person that'scompletely emotionally immature
and not manipulative at all.
Let's say they don't have any ofthe manipulate manipulative
tastes, they're just immature.
You can't go and tell themyou're manipulative.
It doesn't kind of fit thedescription, if you know what I
mean.

SPEAKER_00 (24:13):
And if so, if so, if they're if people can
unconsciously manipulate you,then how do you discern between
someone just being scared oftheir feelings, which is
emotional immaturity, and thensomeone who's manipulating you
if they're unconsciously doingit?
Like, how do you determine thatif they're trying to not take
accountability in a situation ina relationship?

SPEAKER_03 (24:32):
I think you have to talk about it.
I think I always like to say Ifeel statements.
And whenever I'm confrontingsomeone, I mean, take it or
leave it, guys.
This is what's worked reallywell for me.
Whenever you say, you did this,you said that, you did that,
you're automatically going to bemet with defense, even if that
person loves you, cares for you,because uh the human nature is

(24:55):
to protect themselves, right?
So automatically they're gonnadefend in order to protect
themselves when they're beingattacked or when there is an
accusation, right?
So whenever you're confrontingsomebody and you don't know what
it is, you don't know whetherit's emotional manipulation or
emotional maturity, you alwayssay, Hey, I feel when we have
this conversation, you weresaying this and you're behaving

(25:18):
this way, but your actions arenot matching your words.
You said you would do this, butyou didn't do that.
Whatever the context is, I feellike this is happening.

SPEAKER_00 (25:26):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (25:27):
And when a person is emotionally immature, their
response is gonna be like, Oh myGod, I didn't know that this was
happening.
I didn't know I was doing this,I didn't know it came across
this way.
And depending on how self-awarethey are and how receptive they
are, they're either gonna takethe feedback and work on it, or
they're gonna be like, this isgonna take time for me to work

(25:49):
on, I have to go to therapy,whatever it is.
But manipulation, when youconfront them, they're going to
gaslight you, they're gonnatwist your words and they're
gonna say, No, I didn't saythat, I didn't mean it like
that.
You're overthinking it.
You're you're you're just toosensitive.
Because they they don't want totalk about it.
Exactly, because that's thebiggest difference between

(26:09):
someone that's emotionallyimmature and somebody that's
actively manipulating.
People that are emotionallyimmature most of the times don't
know because they just lack,like I said, they just lack
tools, they just lack awareness.
So they usually will be like,okay, I don't have the tools, I
don't know how to process this,and I love you enough to go do
the work.

(26:30):
Again, that's their choice.
But people that are activelymanipulating don't want to
change most of the time.
So like they they're verycomfortable because they've gone
through their entire livesmanipulating and getting what
they want.
So they don't see a desiredoutcome or an ideal way to live
if they get rid of thatmanipulation.
That makes sense.

(26:51):
I'll give you an example.
I'll give you an example of howsometimes two can kind of
overlap.
I had this, I mean, I still havethis friend, close friend.
Anytime she needs a favor, shewill never ask me for a favor
directly.
Right?
So she will be like, Can youwatch my dog?
Uh and this is by the way, youit'll also be like you're you

(27:12):
spending time with the dog.
It'll also be like you being inthe house.
And it'll always, she'll alwaysmake it seem like it's also a
good thing for me.
For you, yeah.
And then one day I just had tobe like, hey, you know what?
Like next time, if you need afavor, I would much rather you
just ask me for a favor.
Right.

(27:33):
I don't need to be benefitingfrom that.
You don't need to tell me howthat's good for me.
You don't need to tell me howthat's beneficial for me.
We don't need to be playing, Ididn't say playing all those
games, but I was thinking in mymind, right?
I'm like, I was giving thebenefit of the doubt because I
didn't know if she was, she knewthat she was kind of being
manipulative or whatever.
So, or it could be emotionalimmaturity.
Maybe she didn't know that shewas doing that, right?
So I gave her the benefit of thedoubt and I had a conversation,

(27:55):
and then she was like, Oh, I I'msorry, I didn't know I was doing
that.
Like, I I I won't do that nexttime I'll just ask you for a
favor.
Right.
So that was a quick fix.
But if she was manipulating me,she would have probably turned
it around on me.
And if she had intentions tomanipulate me, she would be
like, How could you think that Iwas trying to help you too?
Like, you how how can you saythat?

(28:17):
That's so rude.

SPEAKER_00 (28:18):
Like, you know what I mean?
Okay.
So I have a I have an examplethat I want you to help me with.
So if when we're talking aboutmanipulation versus emotional
maturity, let's say two peopleare disagreeing on an argument
that they're having, and this islike a dating relationship, and
they're arguing and disagreeingabout a situation that has
happened in the past.
Okay.
Um, like you said, when peoplefeel like you're coming at them,

(28:40):
they just automatically getdefensive.
So if someone's telling me inthis moment that I did something
out of spite or I did something,you know, to hurt them when that
when that's not my truth, mytruth was like, no, I did every,
you know, I was not doinganything out of spite while I
was single or anything likethat.
Um, and so of course I'mbringing up situations that did
happen in the past, because Iknow they say not to do that,

(29:02):
but I'm bringing up situationslike, how is this any different
than when XYZ?
Or how is this any differentthan you know, these situations?
Like at that moment when I washaving the conversation with
this person, they thought I wastrying to throw past behaviors
in their face or trying todefend, you know, what they were
mad at at me for.

(29:22):
And no, guys, this is notcheating or anything like that.
This is I'm I'm just trying tolike be as vague as possible.
But um, they're trying to, youknow, tell me that I'm trying to
then defend my behavior and onlybringing up past stuff that's in
the past.
And I'm like, no, I'm trying tobring up situations to show, you
know, how is the feeling, thefeeling any different?

(29:43):
Like how when you did those pastbehaviors, this is how it made
me feel when I've done this pastbehavior.
This is obviously how it madeyou feel.
So it's the same feeling thatwe're feeling, and I'm just
trying to bring up an example,but I also can understand where
they're they're coming from whenthey're They're like, but no,
you're just bringing up paststuff and throwing it in my

(30:04):
face.
But the question is, is like,how do I know when we're having
these conversations?
And how do I know if it'smanipulation versus emotional
immaturity when I'm like he'shaving the conversation with me?
He's listening to me talk, butthen he he's also being
defensive.
I'm being defensive.

SPEAKER_03 (30:19):
And let me ask you this
given each other the stage?
And I think we briefly talkedabout it.
Like when he's talking, are youcompletely listening and taking
it in?
And when you're talking, is hecompletely listening and taking
it in and giving you the time tolike process?
Is that happening also?

SPEAKER_00 (30:35):
I mean, I personally think that I give time.
Um, I can't speak for someoneelse.
Do I feel like he fully listensto me at times?
No, I feel like he's already indefense mode and he's mad and
he's angry, and so he's nothearing anything I have to say.

SPEAKER_03 (30:52):
Right.
It almost definitely feels avery much like emotional
immaturity for sure.
Because remember what we saidabout emotional immaturity, like
poor regulation, um, verydefensive, very reactive.
All these signs are like comingup as emotional immaturity.
However, if you have explainedthe situation in detail, you

(31:12):
have you have talked about theintention behind it and the
timeline of it and everything,and he is still choosing to do
that, then that person hasdecided and they've already made
a conclusion about you, right?
And they may be using guilt orshame as tactics to make you
feel bad about yourself.

(31:33):
So that now falls into whatstarted as emotional immaturity,
falls into manipulation.

SPEAKER_00 (31:39):
Yeah, and may maybe in that situation, maybe an
unconscious manipulation becauseum I don't know.
I truly don't know.

SPEAKER_03 (31:47):
Yeah, it could be unconscious or conscious, but
the thing is like this is thisis this is my problem with
unconscious and conscious.
It doesn't matter.
You're still hurting people,right?
And when you're being calledout, when you're being asked or
when you're being talked toabout how the other person is
feeling, you have an opportunityto say, oh my God, I think I

(32:11):
fucked up.
I think I made a mistake, Ithink I take my statement back,
I think I want to say it again.
You also can say, hey, theenergy is running too high.
Why don't we connect in an hour?
Why don't we connect in 30minutes?
No, so the the the way you'reexplaining is it's almost like I
want to be right because I'mright, and this is it.

(32:34):
Yeah.
So it's almost like a made-up,the the person has already made
up their mind in order to defendtheir point and defend their
truth, and are unable and notonly unable and more like
unwilling to listen to yourpart.

SPEAKER_00 (32:51):
Yeah, I mean, possibly so.
Um, because I guess, and youtell me if I'm wrong here, and I
think like this is a wholedifferent topic, and I'm just
curious with manipulation,emotional immaturity.
Like we all use this word love,like I love you, like um, and no
one can ever really explain it,right?
Because it's kind of it doesn'tyou everyone's definition is

(33:12):
different on what they'refeeling.
So we've always, you know, lovehas no bounds and all this other
stuff.
Why, but but it does becauseI've started, you know, I used
to think like, oh, you just haveto love someone enough.
But at the end of the day,sometimes love isn't enough.
And sometimes, you know, someonecan like you can love someone to
the death, but be like, you'renot, I just don't like the way

(33:33):
you treat me.
Like, I just can't keep doingthis.
But that doesn't so for example,my uncle, my great uncle, who's
passed away now, he loved hisex-wife like until the day he
died.
He never remarried, he neverdated anyone outside of her, but
he did not treat her the bestway in their marriage.
And he like he's told me thiswhole story.
He was like, I did not treat herthe way she deserved to be

(33:53):
treated, and they got a divorce,but they both never remarried,
and I don't know if she dated ornot.
Um, he did not, um, and theystill talked as best friends and
stuff like that because theyloved each other, but at the end
of the day, love just wasn'tenough to carry that marriage
out because of the way theactions he carried through that
marriage.

SPEAKER_03 (34:12):
No, absolutely.
Love is never enough, it's notit's you sometimes not enough.
Love is never enough, and Ithink I've told you this many
times.
I can engrave it in a stone, andI hope it'll stay after I die,
which is romantic relationshipsare transactional.
You can hate me for saying this,you can get triggered from me
for saying this, but romanticrelationships are transactional.

(34:34):
Uh, there is there okay.
This is the thing you can haveunconditional love, but you
can't have unconditional respector disrespect.
Right, you can't like thatthat's not okay.
You can love somebody, but ifthey beat the crap out of you,
you have to leave, right?
Be us you and yellowity, youhave to leave.

SPEAKER_00 (34:52):
Right.
Well, I guess where I was goingwith that is like, so uh I feel
like when people are in love,they are a little bit blinded by
some of the stuff and they can'tsee like you don't know.
Right, like you go to yourfriends and you talk to your
friends, and your friends arelike, You're crazy.
Like, what do you I would neverput up with that behavior?

SPEAKER_03 (35:09):
Absolutely.
Like, I'll I'll give you anexample of classic um love
bombing combined withmanipulation that I used in in
in college.
So when I was dating this guy,he would be like super
possessive and he would not likeit when I made plans with other
people, even my own familymembers.
He always wanted to be kind ofconsulted, he always wanted to

(35:30):
be the person, and at that timehe it was disguised as love,
right?
Because I loved him and he lovedme.
So he was like, I love you somuch.
So I want you to, I want to doeverything with you.
That's why.
But actually, he wasmanipulating me, completely
manipulating me because he wascontrolling me.
So anytime I made plans withother people, he would make me

(35:51):
feel extremely guilty as if Iwas doing something wrong,
instead of actuallycommunicating, telling me how he
feels, getting vulnerable,talking about boundaries.
No, none of that happened.
It was just straight up anger,straight up control, straight up
manipulation.
Right.
So yeah, and you are in lovewith someone, you can be very,
very blinded because that lovewill blind you into seeing

(36:12):
whether they're emotionallyimmature or they're manipulating
you.
But remember, even if you'reblinded, even if they're
manipulating you or if they'reemotionally immature, but
emotional immaturity, you canalways have a conversation, and
that person will most likely bereceptive to change.

SPEAKER_00 (36:29):
Well, you and you just made a good point.
Like when you're in arelationship with someone, you
sit down and you have thoseconversations, like, here's my
boundaries, like here's thosethings.
And if someone doesn't choose tomake you their romantic partner,
how do they then get to haveboundaries and decisions over
things that you're doing?

(36:49):
If that if they say they don'twant you to be their boyfriend
or their girlfriend, and theysay, you know, we're not this
wasn't a relationship, and youknow, how can they then get mad
when you go date someone else oryou go do your own thing?

SPEAKER_03 (37:02):
Because that's control, that's manipulation.
Again, it comes down to itbecause again, see, they're
using guilt and shame as atactic to loop you in because
they're not giving you thecommitment, they're not saying,
you know, you're mine, and soI'm demanding this, or I asked
this off you, or I request thisoff you.
First of all, you can't demandanyone even if they're yours.
That's that's another topic foranother day.

(37:23):
But my point is like, no, that'sthat's straight-up manipulation,
and it's also a I feel like it'salso a double standard sometimes
because I feel like if we didthe same to them the same way,
the outcome would be sodifferent.
And and but if it I mean if theydid the same to us, like we have
to react differently versus likeif we did the same to them, then

(37:44):
you know it's explosions.
So I think there's also a doublestandard in that.
And I think it's definitelymanipulation, if you ask me,
whether it's immaturity ormanipulation.
Because, like I said,immaturity, you can call it out,
you can have a conversation, youcan fix it, you can change most
of the time, unless that otherperson is extremely stubborn or
unwilling.

SPEAKER_00 (38:04):
And that makes sense because I'll say, like, I've
had, you know, through my growthperiods and stuff, like I'm I
mean, I'm not saying I'm themost emotionally mature person,
like I still have my moments,but like even in my like like I
guess, quote unquote baddestmoments, like years ago, like
even like when me and my aunthave conversations, like if she
would say something that wouldreally irritate me about myself,

(38:24):
I would be like, whatever.
And then I would go think aboutit.
And then it probably took meabout two to three days, and I
would I would either text her,probably text her because I
didn't want to like have to faceher in a phone call and be like,
so I thought about it, and youare correct, I'm gonna work on
this.

SPEAKER_03 (38:39):
So that could be a sign of immaturity at that point
for that specific topic, butchose again to reflect and come
back.
But see, manipulators don't takeaccountability.
That's the difference betweenemotional immaturity and
manipulation, becausemanipulators cannot take
accountability, especially ifthey know that it's gonna serve
them for their life, right?

SPEAKER_00 (38:59):
Well, what do what would you say the best approach
is when you realize a partner isemotionally immature?
Is it all about patience,boundaries, or both?
Or like how do you work throughthat?
Because if you we can all say,like, okay, that's emotional
maturity, they can talk aboutit, we can talk about it, but if
it doesn't change, if there's noactionable change, then that
relationship typically is notsustainable.

SPEAKER_03 (39:22):
No, it's not sustainable.
I always tell um, I willactually coaching a client
yesterday about this.
I always say when the otherperson is reacting, which is a
sign of emotional immaturitybecause they can't regulate
their feelings, remember?
So they're very reactive,they're explosive, they're
yelling and screaming, they'rereactive.
The best thing you can do is tobe stoic, is to just stay there.

(39:44):
Because if you react, remember,they're already emotionally
mature.
And if you're reacting, you'relike adding more gasoline to the
fire.
So there's no resolution,there's nobody comes to any
conclusion.
So the best thing you can do isif you're dealing with somebody
that's emotionally immature,whether it's a fight, whether
it's a conflict, whether it's asituation, to be more stoic, to
be more neutral, to be morebalanced.

(40:06):
Because when they are in thatheightened state, whatever you
say, it's not gonna land anyway.
Right.
It's not gonna work anyway.
So you may as well give it sometime, maybe a day or two, and
then say, hey, I remember we hadthis conversation Friday, and
this is this was the tone of theconversation.
And when you said this, I feltthis way, and it's triggering me

(40:30):
and it's bringing up this, and Ireally wanted to bring it up to
you so we can talk about it andthen see how they respond.

SPEAKER_00 (40:37):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (40:38):
If they say, No, this is you, you're
oversensitive.
This is not my fault.
This is now it's not funny.

SPEAKER_00 (40:45):
I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_03 (40:46):
It's you know, now you're dealing with the
manipulator, you're you're notdealing with somebody that's
just emotionally immature.

SPEAKER_00 (40:52):
I think I'm just laughing because I've I'm
thinking of scenarios in my ownlife, but it's not that it's
funny, it's just like, gosh,like when you say it, you know,
and you have theseconversations, you're like
people, it it's almost like awell duh, but then when you're
in it, it's not a well duh, youknow.

SPEAKER_03 (41:07):
Really not, it's really not.
And you know, guys, it's easiersaid than done.
I have to tell you that in thepodcast, right?
I'm able to stay here and talkabout this for hours and say how
to discern and how to identifyand how to spot.
But when you're in the situationand there's an emotionally
immature person in front of you,there's triggers actively coming

(41:28):
up, it is difficult.
Right, it's not easy, it'sharder to navigate that
situation.

SPEAKER_00 (41:35):
So, what's the healthy next step if you realize
it is manipulation?

SPEAKER_03 (41:40):
Oh, I would say leave.
I mean, I'm kidding.
Well, you know, for me, thehealthy next step always, always
is a conversation, right?
And but with manipulators,you've got to be a little bit
more careful because remember,even after you have a
conversation, when they're doingit unconsciously, there is hope
for a change, but when they'redoing it consciously, they're

(42:02):
doing it consciously because itserves them, because they're
doing it for selfish reasons.
So what I I actually even toldthis to a client, I said start
writing it down whenever they dosomething manipulative.
Put notes, put the date, put itin your notes, the situation,
and start writing it down.
Because if you're a victim ofmanipulation, sometimes what

(42:24):
happens is you think thatthere's something wrong with
you.
Yep.

SPEAKER_00 (42:27):
I was about to say those are those are kind of
signs, like you start feelinglike everything is your fault,
and like, you know, like it'salmost like that.
Like, if someone dropped a glassin the kitchen and it wasn't
you, you would still be like, ohmy gosh, what you know?
If I wouldn't have done that, hewouldn't have dropped that.

SPEAKER_03 (42:41):
Exactly, exactly.
That's why I say start writingit down because your own mind is
not going to be your friend,especially when you have a
history of being withmanipulative parents, being
around manipulative people, thenyou're used to that, then your
nervous system is used to thatkind of normalcy.
So if you really want toidentify and get away, you need
evidence, you need strongevidence.

(43:02):
So you need to start writing itdown.
This date, this happened when itwas completely not my fault, and
this person totally twisted mywords.
This day, this happened, it wasnot my fault, but they gaslit me
and made me believe it was.
So you want to start writingspecifics, and then after,
whenever I guess you've hadenough, read it, look at it, see

(43:23):
it, try to have a conversationwith them.
Most of the times, if they'redoing it consciously, there is
no hope for recovery.
That's why a lot of therapists,a lot of therapists say, even
though I think that people canchange if they want to, a lot of
therapists say that when peopleare narcissistic, manipulative
inherently, they don't change,right?

SPEAKER_00 (43:41):
Because more it's more of a personality disorder,
from what I've read.
Like most narcissistic, true,true narcissistic people, not
just some narcissistictendencies, they don't feel like
they're doing anything wrong.

SPEAKER_03 (43:54):
They don't, and they don't change, they have no
reason to change because theentire their entire lives have
worked out great for them inthem being narcissists and the
center of the reality.
So they don't it for them, it'snot good enough to change for
one person.

SPEAKER_00 (44:08):
Well, and when you believe you're if you truly
believe you're not doinganything wrong, then why would
you seek help?
Why would you try to change ifyou truly in your mind go, what?
I'm not doing anything wrong.

SPEAKER_03 (44:19):
That's why I said run.
Yeah, yeah, right, right, right.
When when a person has reachedto a level where they are not
able to take feedback at all andthey also don't believe that
they're doing anything wrong,there's no point in us staying
and wasting our time.

SPEAKER_00 (44:35):
Would you do you have three questions someone
could ask themselves whenthey're unsure if they're
dealing with emotionalimmaturity versus manipulation?
Where they could like pause.
Do you have anything?
It doesn't have to be three, butlike something that they could
just pause for a moment and go,okay, is this emotional maturity
or am I being manipulated rightnow?

SPEAKER_03 (44:53):
You know, so this is a really interesting thing.
So generally, when it's justemotional immaturity and the
person is just reactive ordoesn't know how to regulate,
you don't normally feel unsafein bringing things up.
However, if there aremanipulators and they're
gaslighting you all the time,you go into this place of I

(45:14):
don't even want to bring this upwith them.
So when you feel a lack ofsafety, you said three things.
The first thing is lack ofsafety, it could most likely be
manipulation.

SPEAKER_01 (45:26):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (45:26):
And then you're and you already know, you already
know it's going to be usedagainst you when you bring it
up.
So your body doesn't feel safein bringing anything up, right?
Right.
And the second thing is whenyou're in in the conversation,
and again, the second thing iswhen you're in the conversation
and they're not able to receiveit and they gaslight you,
manipulation.

(45:46):
Right.
It's immediately, it's it'simmediately manipulation, right?
And then the third thing is noaccountability.
They are not willing to look atthemselves, they don't want to
work on themselves, they'reconstantly in a cycle of blame.
I've seen people like this.
Oh, it's their fault, it's mymom's fault, it's my dad's
fault, it's my brother's fault,it's my teacher's fault.
They never want to take anyaccountability, they're in a

(46:09):
state of victimhood, many, youknow, they're and and you know,
being a victim, get this being avictim gives them significance,
it gives them attention.
People are like, oh, poor you,what happened to you?
So it gives them that thatattention that they're like
needing to validate forthemselves, right?
Right.
So whenever you see signs likethis, like victimhood,

(46:31):
gaslighting, lack of safety inthe body, it's usually
manipulation.

SPEAKER_00 (46:36):
And what's one practice that listeners can
start today to build resilienceagainst both?

SPEAKER_03 (46:43):
Oh, that's a good one.
You know, I always go back toself-development and
self-awareness, which is buildon your character.
I always come back to who am Iand what are my intentions?
Who am I and what are myintentions?
And if you are very anchored inwho you are, what your values
are, again, boundaries are sosexy, like what your boundaries

(47:06):
are.
If you can be really anchored inthat, then it's really difficult
for people to manipulate you.
It's really difficult for peopleto get under your skin because
they know that you're hard tomanipulate.
They can't pull those strings,they can't do the gaslighting
game, they can't do the guiltand shame game, they can't do
any of that because they'reprobably like, oh, she is way

(47:28):
too confident in who she is andshe has boundaries and she's
gonna walk away.
So I can't really do that.

SPEAKER_00 (47:34):
It's funny that you say that because this this past
week with my therapist, I washaving this conversation.
I was like, I think I need tostart working on my self-esteem.
And she was like, Why do you saythat?
And I was like, Well, justbecause past people that I've
dated, like I think it's clearthat my self-esteem, like
sometimes it's there, likethere's a difference in
self-esteem and self-confidence,right?
Like I'm confident at work, I'mconfident sometimes when I like
put makeup on and go out, butI'm uh at my core, still need

(47:58):
clearly still have work to dobecause I wouldn't allow someone
to come in and out of my life,walk all over me, not allow me
to have conversations and stufflike that.
If I were truly like I love whoI am, and I, you know, you know
what I'm saying?
Like if I had a firm foundation.

SPEAKER_03 (48:15):
Yes and no.
I have to deny a little bit ofthat.
Yes, uh, because yes, part of itis true.
Part of it I have to say is no,is because I think it also comes
with intentions.
Like, for example, if youbelieve the best in people,
sometimes you give them too muchgrace than they deserve.
Yeah.
So you're probably giving themtoo much grace than they deserve
because that's what you wouldhave wanted for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 (48:37):
Well, yeah, she said the same thing because I was
like, I and that's where it'shard because she was like, I see
you as someone who has reallygood self-esteem.
And I was like, maybe now morethan I used to, but then also at
the same time, when since youbrought that up, I was like, I
think it's because I never wantsomeone to feel the way I felt
as a child.
And so I never want to give upon someone because I felt like I

(48:59):
was giving up on a lot, right?

SPEAKER_03 (49:01):
Right, right.
But I think that that's thedifference, right?
What they did was when you werea child, right?
But these people are walkingadults, walking time bombs,
choosing, choose every day.
They're waking up, choosing tobe manipulative, yeah, choose to
not do the work on themselves,right?
That's a whole other ball.

(49:21):
You can't compare again, youcan't compare you as a child to
a grown woman or man.

SPEAKER_00 (49:28):
No, I know.
I think it I think just at asubconscious level, like when
I'm like trying to iterate, orthat's not the word, trying to
like just say like why maybesome of the behaviors that I do,
like why I hold on so hard topeople, why you know, because
number one, potential, which weall know to stop, you know,
chasing potential.
Um, but two, I think it's justbecause like I see who they

(49:51):
could be, and I just want topush them, but obviously it's
not my choice, and I have torealize that because then maybe
that's maybe that's me being amanipulator, you know.

SPEAKER_03 (50:00):
I mean, it's also like again, you don't you just
don't want to give up, and I getthat you don't want to give up
because it feels painful to begiven up on, and and you've
experienced that and I feelthat.
But the thing is, Jonna, youhave to remember this is gonna
sound crazy.
Even serial killers havepotential, okay?
Just saying, even people, you'renot wrong, mental institutions

(50:22):
have potential, even crazypeople have like I don't like to
use the word crazy, I don't usethat in my profession.
I shouldn't, but uh you youunderstand what I'm saying,
though.
Like people are irrational andunbelievable, like sociopaths,
yeah, and stuff like that.
They have do they have potentialto be better?
Sure, but do they want toexactly do they want to?

(50:42):
So are we wasting our time andlike seeing, oh, let's see if I
can fix him or her?
Like, that's that's whereaccountability again comes in,
right?
See, emotionally mature peoplewhen you call them out, it's
easy for them, not easy, easierfor them to take accountability
because most of the times theymay not be aware that they're
emotionally um immature and theymay lack tools, they just need

(51:05):
that help, they just need thatpush.
Yeah, but people that choosethat constantly every day, they
know that they're miserable,they know they don't have an
outcome and a happy life, anideal outcome, and they choose
that.

SPEAKER_00 (51:18):
I mean, I can I can say for 100%, I was very
emotionally immature, very, andI hated the way I ended up
feeling at the end of the day,fights with people, friends,
family, you know, romanticpartner.
So that's why I chose.
I was like, I've got to dosomething.
I've got to go to therapy, I'vegot to read a book, I've got
something because I don't likethe way this feels every time.

SPEAKER_03 (51:38):
Yeah, no, totally get it.
So I hope this like completelyum I don't know, makes it clear,
like right, you know, tutorialand manipulation, and how we can
spot it and then how we can howwe can discern and how we can
communicate even to others, andwhen we communicate what we can
spot and in the way that theyreact, and you know, how we can
draw boundaries and just all ofit.

SPEAKER_00 (51:59):
It does, but we're gonna do some rapid fire because
that's my new thing that I'vebeen doing.
So I have a few scenarios, and Iwant you to say if it's
emotional immaturity,manipulation, or possibly both.
And here we go.
Number one, he um they say theydon't want a girlfriend or
boyfriend, but they get upsetwhen you date other people.
Manipulation.

(52:22):
They apologize number two, theyapologize only after you cry,
but not when you calmly bring upconcerns.

SPEAKER_02 (52:31):
It could be both.
It could be both.

SPEAKER_00 (52:34):
They blame you for making them mad when you set a
boundary.
Manipulation.
They blame you.
Oh, I just said that one.
They ignore you for days, thencome back acting like nothing
happened.

SPEAKER_02 (52:49):
Manipulation.

SPEAKER_00 (52:51):
They say you're quote unquote too sensitive when
you point out hurtful comments.

SPEAKER_02 (52:56):
Manipulation.

SPEAKER_00 (52:58):
They withhold affection until you give in to
what they want.

SPEAKER_03 (53:01):
1000% manipulation.
Women have done this forcentury.
Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 (53:07):
They confess deep feelings after you've threatened
to leave.

SPEAKER_03 (53:12):
Classic manipulation.

SPEAKER_00 (53:14):
I say that could be both.
I say that could be emotionalimmaturity because, like, let's
say that they're an avoidant,and then they're very afraid
that you mean it this time andyou're gonna leave, like
something's different, and itlike gets them to the core.
I feel like at that moment theycould be like, but wait, wait,
wait, wait, wait, wait.
Okay, okay.
I've maybe or no.

SPEAKER_03 (53:34):
The reason I say is no is that it's a pattern.
I don't believe somebody wakesup and decides to be some kind
of way.
Okay, right.
The reason I say is manipulationis it's possible that this is
not the first time they've doneit.
Okay.
So if it's not the first timethey've done it, they know that
they're doing it.
So if they know that they'redoing it, how can it be

(53:55):
immaturity?
Because remember, immaturity canbe fixed if they realize that
they're immature.

SPEAKER_00 (53:59):
Right.

SPEAKER_03 (54:00):
But if it's repetitive, it's a pattern, it's
manipulation.

SPEAKER_00 (54:03):
Okay.
They compare you to their ex tomake a point about your
behavior.

SPEAKER_03 (54:09):
I think that's very immature.

unknown (54:11):
Okay.

SPEAKER_00 (54:12):
You find yourself constantly apologizing to keep
the peace.

SPEAKER_03 (54:17):
I mean, that's very unhealthy.
What do I say?
Is that manipulation or ugh,that's neither.

SPEAKER_00 (54:24):
I think it could be better.
Probably emotional immaturity.

SPEAKER_03 (54:27):
Yeah, I mean, I I wouldn't the person that's
constantly apologizing, youknow, that's that's not healthy.
So that's that's emotionalimmaturity on their part.
They need to regulate, um, andknow that okay, I've apologized
once and that's enough.

SPEAKER_00 (54:43):
Right.
What if some um I already askedyou that one?
A partner says, if you reallyloved me, you would do this for
me.
Who manipulation?

SPEAKER_03 (54:52):
I love these questions.
You you are good ones.

SPEAKER_00 (54:55):
A friend explodes in anger, but later apologizes,
saying they didn't know how elseto express themselves.
Emotional immaturity.

SPEAKER_03 (55:03):
Because, see, again, not lack of regulation
reactivity, that's moreemotional immaturity.

SPEAKER_00 (55:07):
A coworker constantly forgets to do their
part of a project, but alwayshas an excuse.
Ooh, manipulation.
Yes.
Someone deletes messages,blocks, and unblocks to control
when conversation happens withthe other person.

SPEAKER_03 (55:23):
You just said control, so it's manipulation.
I know, I shouldn't have saidthat.
Okay, that's all I have.
But those are really good onesand really great examples.
So, guys, we are we like sharedreal-time stories with you.
There are a lot of things that Ishared with you that has
happened in my life.
It's not imaginary stories andthings that Jana said has
happened in her life.

(55:44):
So if you're listening to this,if you're able to see these
signs, please start noting themdown.
Take your notepad, lock thenotes, keep it just for you.
Start documenting things so thatyou are self-aware because it is
not a good reality to live whenyou're constantly being
manipulated.
You deserve payment for that,you deserve authenticity, you
deserve truth, you deserve love.

(56:05):
Whoever is listening to this,you deserve that.

SPEAKER_00 (56:07):
I agree.
And then I also like being like,like I said, I've been the
emotionally immature one, and Ididn't get out of that until I
did seek uh, you know,professional help, whether that
be through life coaching,through therapy, like obviously
I still am mature at times, butit's quicker to recognize with
the tools that I've learned,both from menu and through my
therapy sessions, um, or evenbooks that I've read, you know?

(56:31):
So, and I also think, like, youknow, if you are the, you know,
I'm not gonna say victim ofmanipulation, I was about to say
that.
If you are the one beingmanipulated, I also think that
sometimes like trying to get outof your own head and realizing
things aren't your fault is alsodifficult without professional
help as well.

SPEAKER_03 (56:46):
It's very difficult.
And I had to call actually anadult out a few months ago, one
of my family members, becauseanytime um there was any anytime
I said something and they didn'tlike it, they would give me the
silent treatment.
Guys, I'm telling you, silenttreatment is manipulation.
Maybe you're doing itunconsciously, maybe you're
doing it with your child or yourpartner.

(57:07):
Like that is not healthy.
We are adults, we can talk aboutthings, we can always say
something is hurtful andsomething needs to change.
Let's let's open up and talkmore.
Like, let's not play these gameswith our friends, family
members, with our partners.
Let's be communicative, let'swork on ourselves.
I'm not a whole person, I'mstill working on myself, John is
still working on ourselves.

(57:28):
We are always gonna be a work inprogress, but as long as you are
open and curious, you aregolden.
Right.
Just don't shut yourself off.
Don't ever say, I'm done workingon this.
Is it no, no, no?
It's it's always, there's alwaysmore, there's always more to go.
There's always how there'salways ways to grow.
So just remember that.

SPEAKER_00 (57:44):
All right.
Thank you as always, Mimi, fordoing this with me.
And until next time, guys, bye.