August 26, 2025 • 52 mins
#187: The decision not to have children isn't made lightly, yet it's often dismissed as selfish or temporary. In this candid conversation, we pull back the curtain on what it truly means to be child-free by choice in 2025, starting with an important distinction – the difference between being "childless" versus "child-free." This isn't about what's missing from our lives; it's about defining life on our own terms.
We share our personal journeys to becoming child-free women, revealing how neither of us started with an absolute "no" to motherhood. Instead, our paths evolved through self-reflection, witnessing others' experiences, and honestly assessing what we wanted from life. The statistics back up what we're experiencing – nearly one in three adults without children now say they never want them, with women leading this cultural shift.
The financial reality of raising children today is staggering. We break down the numbers: $18,865 for pregnancy and delivery, childcare costs rising over 50% in just two years, and approximately $300,000 to raise a child to age 17. Beyond finances, we explore the other top reasons women choose not to have children – from valuing personal freedom to concerns about climate change, and the persistent lack of societal support for parents. The conversation gets real when we address the myth that being child-free means being anti-child. As we explain, many of us absolutely adore children – we just don't want the 24/7 responsibility.
Whether you're child-free, a parent, or somewhere in between, this episode invites you to challenge assumptions and embrace the idea that there's no single right path to a fulfilled life. Join us for this thoughtful exploration of choice, stigma, and finding joy in the life you design. Then share your thoughts – have you faced judgment for your reproductive choices?
You can now send us a text to ask a question or review the show. We would love to hear from you!
Follow me on social: https://www.instagram.com/babbles_nonsense/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
What is up everyone?
Welcome back to another episodeof the Babbles Nonsense podcast
.
As promised from last week'stangent, me and Minyu are diving
into why motherhood is oftentreated like a default setting,
something women are expected tostep into without question, but
more and more women are sayingno thanks.
Choosing to be child free isn'tabout what's missing.
(00:21):
It's about defining your lifeon your own terms.
In this episode, we'reunpacking what it really means
to live child-free by choice.
We'll talk about thedifferences between being
child-free and childless, whylanguage matters and what the
latest research tells us aboutthis cultural shift.
And spoiler, the numbers don'tlie Nearly one in three adults
without children now say theynever want them, and women are
(00:42):
leading that change.
We'll dive into the stigma, theso-called selfish label and the
freedom that comes with makinga choice many people still don't
understand.
We'll also explore the grayareas what it means to be on the
fence, how personal stories andrelationships can shift our
perspective and why changingyour mind isn't weakness, it's
growth.
And, most importantly, we'llchallenge the myth that being
(01:03):
child-free means beinganti-child, because living fully
without parenthood isn't aboutrejecting kids.
It's about embracing freedom,purpose and joy in a different
way.
So let's get into it, the cost,the culture, the conversations
and the courage it takes to sayparenthood just isn't for me
(01:40):
welcome back beautiful peopleinto another episode with
Babbles, nonsense and TranscendInto Wellness.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Obviously, after last week's episode, we got on a
roll again and we might be doinga few back to backs, so yeah
agreed.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Here we are.
So this is a hot topic that meand my friends actually talk
about quite a bit, and we we didget off on it last week a
little bit, so we were likelet's just do a whole podcast on
it.
So it's about how some womenchoose not to have children and
that's a choice they made.
We're not talking about, like,when people have infertility
issues or stuff like that.
(02:14):
We're talking about it trulyjust being a choice not to have
a child.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, and it's obviously still a big stigma and
it's still taboo to say it outloud.
Yes, it's 2025, but it's stilltaboo.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Agreed.
And you know, I think a lot ofpeople misunderstand on how we
define the choice, meaning likeyou can say I'm childless or you
can say I'm child free.
Right, and I choose to say thatI'm child free and Jonna
chooses the same thing.
Because, yes, all thebiological markers may still be
great, our health might be ingreat shape.
(02:50):
Whatever that is, this is aconscious decision we've made
due to several reasons that wehave already thought about so
much in the last few years.
So I guess the first thingwould be how do you want to be
identified?
Do you want to say I'mchildless or Do you want to say
I'm childless or do you want tosay I'm child free?
Because when you say I'm childfree, you come to more owning
that choice rather than sayingchildless, which is all like the
(03:14):
universe or God doesn't want meto give me a child, so
childless.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
you know right, yeah, and like when?
When I read this I was like, oh, that's a good point, because
language does matter around this, because there is a lot of
infertility issues and so somewomen who do desperately want
that and then they're not giventhat choice.
They are childless, they're notchild free because they want
that option, and so I neverthought about it in the context
(03:40):
of that before until I startedhaving friends that were going
through infertility issues andsaw how much they were
struggling, because I could notrelate to that, because that's
not something I ever yearned foror wanted so bad.
Now I will say this I had onetime like I've never grown up,
never had that, I've never beenthat girl.
That's been like let me picturemy family, let me picture
(04:01):
myself in that wedding dress andperfect.
Never, probably because I grewup poor and I didn't ever think
it was going to happen anyways.
But there was one time when Iwas going through my health
stuff with my thyroid and thenmy hormones around the age of 30
, where the doctor was like youprobably won't be able to have
kids with your hormones likethis, and even though I knew in
(04:23):
my mind that I had already madethat choice for myself.
It did kind of sting a littlebit because I felt like then the
choice was taken away withoutme making that decision, even
though I had already made thedecision.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
And it's so interesting, right?
It's sometimes I feel like whenother people outside present
you with that choice and theymake it for you, you suddenly
you want it more.
It's like scarcity creates moreabundance in your mind, or
something.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Right, right, right.
And it was literally for abrief second that I quickly got
over that, but I was like wait aminute.
What?
What are you saying?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
No, I get it, girl.
Like for me, I think my entirelife and it's so interesting, my
entire life I wanted kids.
So I never didn't want kids.
I wanted kids when I was ateenager.
I wanted kids so I never didn'twant kids.
I wanted kids when I was ateenager, I wanted kids really.
Yeah, when I was in my I wouldsay, early 20s, late teens, I
wanted kids.
Again, I wasn't obsessed withwanting kids.
(05:15):
I want you to understand thedifference.
I was like, yeah, I want, Iwant a baby.
Like it's not like I talkedabout it, it's not like I
decided what their names are, orboy or girl.
You know how some women reallyhave it like to a yeah, but like
to a t, like everything, likethe names and this and that, how
many they want to have.
Like I've never thought aboutit to that length.
I was just like, oh, maybe Iwant children.
(05:37):
You know I want children.
They're cute.
So that's the length in which Ithought about it.
And then, after I started doinga lot of inner work and owning
my choices, and again, for me,being in United States has given
me a lot of freedom of thoughtand freedom of speech so I can
think the way I want to think.
I'm not so programmed, right?
(05:57):
Because if you live in the samecountry that you're raised,
you're pretty programmed as tohow that belief system is based
on the culture, based on thepeople you grew up with, your
parents, all of those things.
And after I moved out, when Iwas 17 and a half, I started
questioning it a little bit.
I was like do I really want it,or am I thinking that I want it
(06:20):
because that's where I, where I, come from?
So I started becoming in the.
I started getting in thein-between stages in my 20s and
I was like, maybe I'll be okayif I want it and I'll also be
okay if I don't want it.
So I got to that stage in my20s, yeah, and then in my 30s it
was just hit on the nail.
It was like I don't want kids.
So right at me if I change mymind in five years.
(06:42):
But right has been ringing truefor me for the past five years
and this hasn't changed.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Well, I guess, yeah, I have a similar story.
I guess, like I didn't grow upjust going, nope, not having
kids, don't want that.
It was more.
So I'm the youngest of let'ssee how many are there?
One, two, three, four.
I'm the youngest of five.
So they all had started havingchildren very young.
So that my oldest sister, she'slike God, please, if she
(07:10):
listens to this, don't kill me.
I think 45 now.
So she no, she's got to beolder than that because she's I
was 10.
She was 17.
She's seven years older than me.
So, yeah, so, yeah.
So she's 45.
And so she had a baby at 17.
Then my sister had a baby at 17.
And then my brother got someonepregnant when he was 17.
So I was 10 when my oldestsister had her first child and
(07:34):
they were living with us.
So I saw the crying in themiddle of the night, I saw the
getting up.
I saw that and I'm a very lightsleeper, so I was getting up
when they were crying and I wasjust like, who wants this?
So I felt like, with all mynieces and nephews, that I had
already experienced that and so,and then, when I was in my 20s,
(07:57):
I was like, well, if it happensit happened, you know, I'm not
like not gonna be upset about it, or you know, either way, I was
very neutral to it and then,like you kind of like when I was
in my 30s, I was like, yeah, no, no, I don't think, I want this
.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
No, yeah, exactly, and I know there's just to talk
about this a little bit.
I think there's a lot of shamethat goes around for right,
especially women to say thatthey don't want children.
Because I think society labelsus as to we have to want
children.
It, it's primal.
It should be in our DNA as awoman to crave and want children
(08:28):
and to give that love andaffection to that being and
birth, that being.
It should be integral, right,because there's a lot of shame.
And so interestingly, let metell you this, this is so
interesting In my 30s, eventhough I had made a choice when
I turned 30 that I don't wantkids, I'm telling you, jonna,
there's something definitelyhormonal for women that goes on,
(08:51):
where sometimes you feel likeyou want it.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
I've never felt it, though, yeah.
I just haven't, I just haven'tfelt it.
But also I'll be 38 inliterally two months.
So wait three months.
So I'll be 38 in like literallytwo months.
So wait three months.
So I'll be 38 in three months.
And it's like I'm also at thatage where number one I mean, yes
, I know people are havingbabies later in life.
(09:16):
But at the same time, like whenyou like I'm not worried, like
I'm not thinking about that, I'mthinking like I'm going to be
40 soon.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I don't want a 20 year old when I'm 60.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Oh my God, that sounds crazy If you think about
it right, like like not sayingthere's anything wrong with it,
but personally, for me, that'sat the age where I want to be
like taking care of, like Iwould want like a 30, 30 year
old child or a 35 year old child.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Right, right, no, I get it.
And so you know the shame comesfrom that.
I think the shame also comesfrom talking about what is it
that you can tolerate.
For example, I had to be realwith myself and ask am I okay
being sleepless for two to threeyears or having very, very
disturbed sleep for two or threeyears?
And I had to be honest and sayno, I'm actually going to be a
(10:06):
bitch if I don't get my sleep.
I'm not going to be a good andkind person if I don't get my
sleep.
I'm going to be an unhappymother if I don't get my sleep.
That's just how brutally honestI had to get with myself to ask
yes, the idea of it sounds verynice and sweet and whatever,
whatever I'm supposed to do, butam I able to enjoy the day to
(10:28):
day?
Am I able to enjoy the journeythat comes with it and not just
look at it as this is a price orthis is a destination or this
is a checklist?
And and again I'm not sayingthe people that are listening
you have to think like this thisis just the way I'm wired and I
have to think about thesethings and I have to think about
what is it that I can tolerate?
What is it that my body cantolerate?
(10:49):
What is it that I will enjoyfrom day to day?
And the motherhood experiencedoesn't come for me in that list
of what I would enjoy day today and the things that I want
to do in a day to day basis.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
No, I have very similar thoughts on that and I
know this is where that can getinto what you were just saying.
Like people, like some peoplelabel that as selfish, but and I
used to think that because ofsocietal pressures, but then
I've had friends that have beenlike actually it's very
self-aware.
It's not selfish, because ifyou had a child and you know
this about yourself, that isselfish.
So, like I'm very similar, likeI love going to the gym, I like
(11:25):
to go early, I like to wake up,I like to do those things, I
like to be able to go at a dropof a hat.
Then if I had a kid, it's likewhat do I do with this?
What?
What do I do with this?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
yeah, you know it's.
Yeah, it's a very validquestion.
I just wish more peoplequestioned it like this.
I'm not saying you have to makea choice not to have kids.
I will never advocate foreither of those.
It's completely a differentthing.
But I think these things, theselife-changing decisions, you
have to think about them, right.
You have to do it because it'sromantic and it's the next thing
(11:54):
to do.
And oh, I love him so much so Iwant to have a kid with him,
but also let's talk about that.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Just because you want a kid, you could have all those
thoughts and you could havethat fantasy of wanting because
you love him and you want tohave a child.
Again, I could change my mindtomorrow if I fell in love with
the right person.
I don't know.
I know that my friends havetold me, like some of my friends
have had the same thoughts,like I didn't want kids and all
that.
And then when I had my kid, Iwas like how could I have never
thought about wanting this andabout wanting this and and maybe
(12:32):
that you know, but I'm justsaying like not everyone is
blessed with a partner that is,as what's the word?
Like um, accommodating, I guess, like people get pregnant off
of when that stands.
People get pregnant, you know,thinking that they're in love
with someone and didn't realizethat they were going to abuse
them later in life.
So it's not that it's and Iknow that's just everyone's yeah
, but that's just a fear.
You don't know that's going tohappen.
No, you don't.
But you also don't know thatit's not going to happen.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
That's right, and you know, what's crazy is, when I
moved to Nashville in 2018, Imet my now best friend.
I met her in a movie theaterand we just got into talking.
We watched the movie and westarted talking, went to Panera
Bread to grab some dinner andthen she was like so what's
going on with you?
And at that time I was marriedand I said you know nothing.
And we just caught up and Isaid I'm in this like dilemma
(13:11):
whether I should have kids ornot.
And she had two kids, right,and she goes.
I don't really know you.
Well, I just met you, but don'tdo it.
I will never be not thankful forher honesty, because a lot of
people want you to have it,because they have it and I hate
(13:31):
to say it, misery is amusingwith company.
They're probably like I'mmiserable, so I want you to be
miserable.
I need to do, and I did itbecause it's the right thing to
do, and you need to do itbecause it's the right thing to
do as a woman.
So a lot of people projecttheir values and their beliefs
upon someone else, thinking thatthat's their value too, and I
was just so I'm just so gratefulto have a close group of
(13:51):
friends and a lot of them havechildren and a lot of them tell
me not to have children like andnot that they don't love their
children, they absolutely lovetheir children.
They would do it all over again.
They will not change theirdecisions and you know their
minds, but they also know who Iam and they also know what I
value, and so they're being veryhonest and candid with me and I
(14:12):
really, really appreciated thathonesty that she gave me, and
my decision again is not basedon her, but I think she just
provoked the truth which isalready in me, which I wasn't
willing to see at that point.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, I mean it's a hard decision to make in me
which I wasn't willing to see atthat point.
Yeah, it's.
I mean it's it's a harddecision to make and, like now,
if I had been in a lovingrelationship, you know, in my my
later 20s, early 30s, would thedecision have been different
Possibly, like I possibly likeif, if I was with someone who
truly genuinely wanted a child,I would I'm not going to say no
to that because I was veryneutral at that time.
(14:46):
It's more so like the older Iget, it's like I'm getting
closer to that age of number one.
It's a geriatric pregnancy andthere's more health
complications and I'm not asyoung as I once was and like
it's just those types of thingsthe old, the closer I get to 40.
It's like you know, let's tiethis up and say it's done.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Right, right, no, I understand.
I mean it's a lot of people.
For them it's health, for otherpeople it's just a matter of
choice.
I feel like we're those peoplewhere it was okay, like it was
kind of open ended, in our 20sand then I think, the more we
got into our 30s, it wassolidified as we got a year
older and older.
And I think for me personally Idon't know about Jonna, but I
(15:29):
think my decision was solidifiedmore when I saw other people
around me, because I am somebodythat loves to learn from other
people's experience, like Idon't have to go through it to
learn it.
You know, I have a lot of mybest friends, the stories they
share with me and the thingsthey tell me, and for me
personally, everybody.
A lot of people have said ifyou're on the fence, then don't
(15:49):
do it.
Like if you are very sure, ifyou're excited, you know this is
a part of your purpose, then doit.
But if you're on the fence,then that means you're already
at a point where you know thatyou're not going to tolerate
some of the things.
Or you don't have the tolerancefor some of the things, or you
don't have the patience for someof the things.
That's why you're on the fence.
You're already skeptical, 50percent right, and the
motherhood experience is goingto be harder for people that are
(16:12):
on the fence because you'realready one foot in, one foot
out, yes, so I really appreciatethat candid honesty that my
friends gave, and so we reallywant to, in this episode, not
just talk about defining thechoice or how you want to frame
it or your mindset, but we alsowant to talk about statistics.
So Jonna has numbers pulled up.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yes, so we we wanted to be actually researched on
this podcast instead of justtalking.
So, because I've been hearing alot on TikTok and on the news
lately that how much the birthrates have declined and how many
more women are choosing not tohave kids, and I think that was
part maybe part of the politicaldebate, because it was talking
about, you know, how expensivefertility treatments were and
(16:56):
stuff like that.
So, per the Michigan StateUniversity, the people, the
women that said they neverwanted children in 2002 was 14%,
but in 2023, it climbed to 29%.
Whoa Right.
So then people who wereplanning to have children went
(17:16):
from 79% in 2002 to 59% in 2023.
So it is declining, like morewomen are choosing to not have
children.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Right, and I have so many theories on this, but I
would like to hear yourperspective first on what has
led them into this decision.
I'm not saying again, not rightor wrong.
This is the reality, right?
So what has led them to thisreality?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
I personally think, just because of our other
podcast and like doing researchon that and then me doing some
solo episodes on womenempowerment and stuff like that,
I didn't realize which is crazy.
Number one I hate history, butI didn't realize how recent it
was that women just becameautonomous, like and that we're
talking about, like their rolewasn't to sit in the house, cook
(18:05):
and clean.
They're then getting careers,you know.
They're then allowed to divorcetheir husband if they didn't
want to.
So I didn't realize, like, howrecent that was, and so I think
that now that it's even morebooming like obviously in 2025,
we're not dependent on someoneelse.
So I think, as that continuesto grow, I think we're going to
continue to see a decline.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
That's actually very true, Because remember the power
of choice, meaning you can sayno whenever you want you can.
You can change your mindtomorrow with the way things are
going, and that's how I thinkthings are headed in the future,
Like what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, and I also think and this is one of the
reasons why I personally don'twant a child Like I have not
saying I've ever like I grew upin a struggling financial family
and I saw how hard my momworked, working two and three
jobs with two children who shedid have a terrible partner that
wouldn't help her until she metmy stepdad, and so I personally
(19:01):
I know how expensive this worldis and like to add a child to
that.
I'm just like how do people doit, right?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, and I'm going to literally take off my life
coach hat for the next fiveminutes and I'm going to be very
real and cynical, maybe alittle cynical, but I just
honestly think life is hard.
It is hard, it is Okay.
There are things changingrapidly around us every day.
The future is unpredictablewith the way the world is headed
(19:31):
Climate change, there's just somany things happening.
And then I remember I know thisis not a big reason for
everyone, but I remember when Iwas in middle school, high
school, I hated, hated theexperience of not having choices
.
I know that that's a veryteenager, rebellious thing to
(19:51):
say, but at that time I hatedthat, I hated the school I was
going to, I hated, you know, thesubjects I had to take and the
classes I had to take.
It was just a very, very bitterexperience.
And then obviously then wedon't even have to talk about
relationships breaking up,patching up relationship,
meeting new person and thentrusting new people, and then
marriage, divorce.
I just think again, I'm notbeing a life coach for five
(20:17):
minutes.
I'm just going to talk about howhard life is.
That hardship is whether youare rich, whether you are poor.
Whatever it is, the hardship isthere.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Like that emotional hardship.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
There is just hardship period.
There's hardship in a way thatnobody gets out alive.
Let's just talk about that fora minute.
Right right, no one get outalive in this life and I can
walk out now and have a caraccident.
I'm not wishing that, but I'mjust saying life is
unpredictable.
We can't control everything.
We can't change things the waywe want to at a time that we
(20:49):
want to.
Life is just very difficult andthere's just a lot to navigate
just for you being a person, youhaving a career, you making
money, you having sanity withyour mental health and
everything.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
There is just too many things to balance for one
person right and like you beinga life coach, like I think
trauma also plays into one ofthe reasons why I don't want to
have a child, because I don'twant to screw somebody up.
And then like it doesn't matterhow good, or like you parent the
best you can.
I know everybody does the bestthey can they get what they know
from what they, what they have.
(21:21):
Like you've always told me youdo what you do with the tools
that you have.
And so like my mom, who hadraised two me and my sister in
the same house the same way, youknow there wasn't really much
difference.
And then you know my sisterwent through all her stuff where
she was in trouble all the time.
And you know my mom we talkedabout this on the episode last
week my mom felt guilty overthat for years and you know,
(21:42):
chase that and, like me, chasingany emotional unavailable men,
because that's what I feel likelove is, because I wasn't really
like I don't want to putsomebody through that that's
exactly that, and you know I'llgive you another argument.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Jonna, this is going to blow your mind.
I have the best parents.
I have the best parents.
I don't have anything tocomplain about.
My parents and I still hadchildhood traumas.
Now let's talk that up you know, because I didn't.
I didn't have trauma like youdid when I was that young, but I
had trauma later which, oh mygod, was just unbelievable, from
the ages of 17, all the way to30.
(22:15):
It was like on and off, on andoff, on and off.
It was just life throwing medifferent curve balls and me
having to handle circumstances,handle people, handle a divorce,
being in different countrieslike having an autoimmune.
It is just a lot.
Even if you have amazingparents, life is hard.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yeah, it is, and so personally, I have to.
That's why I think women arechoosing that yeah that's what I
think.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
That's one of the main reasons, and I think this
is something that I hear againnot naming names at all with my
friends, but I hear from so manybest friends, close friends,
that they just don't feelsupported by their partner.
They just aren't getting thatsupport at all.
They are promised that they'regoing to be given that support.
(23:01):
The excitement is there, thecuriosity is there and all that,
but when it comes to it, whenit comes to waking up in the
middle of the night and feedingor taking them to school and
rolling them in classes afterschool activities, you making
money ain't enough, boo, likeyou got a bit, and that's just
not there.
When I see and I'm not tryingto blame men, no, no, no Are
(23:23):
incredible dads, Pretty surethat are incredible hands on
dads.
As you may listen to this, I'msure you'll find examples, but I
am just talking about thereality and the majority of what
women are facing.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Right.
Like I have several guy friendsthat are amazing dads like
amazing dads wouldn't takeanything away from them at all.
But at the same time, like Isee it with my friends and their
children, I think that eventhough society has advanced in
so many ways, we're still stuckin a mindset that women stay
home with the children and mengo to work and that's all fine
(23:56):
and good.
However, in this day andeconomy, I don't know what
family, other than very richfamilies, can afford to do that
without two incomes coming in.
And so if two incomes arecoming in and the mom has to
work 40 hours, 40 plus hours aweek and then come back and make
lunches, make dinner, clean thehouse, like it is a lot.
(24:19):
It's like I've even heard womenbe like oh, I'm just a stay at
home mom, and I'm like just astay at home.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
That is a full time job.
I never understand when peoplesay that I anytime.
Even if a client says that I'mjust a stay at home, momhome,
mom, I'll be like, no, no, no,you are a stay-at-home mom and
that is a career.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
That is a full-time job you're doing a full-time job
without any payment in returnexactly, exactly any payment
yeah, imagine if they hired ananny to do all that.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
They would be paying four to five thousand dollars by
preparing meals and a chef anda maid like how much would you
be paying right people to doeverything that a mom does?
Speaker 1 (24:55):
right and so, like, like you said, it's not all men
like I know that there aresingle dads out there doing it
all and I think that, like, whenI talk to dads or that are like
maybe they're divorced and theyhave their kids, and I've
talked to them like, and they'redoing it all, like they do have
that appreciation that they maynot once have had in the
marriage.
Not saying that they didn't doit in the marriage, I'm just
saying, like there is adifference and I know, like they
(25:18):
say, like you know the the,which we obviously don't have
experience with.
That um, what am I trying tosay?
The mother, um, the maternalinstinct, I guess, um, but it is
just different.
It is different what societyplaces on women versus a man
within a relationship and kids.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Oh, absolutely 1000%.
Like my best friend wouldhappily leave the kids with me
and I had a lot of time to likewatch her kids.
But again, after watching them,it's an amazing experience.
And then I want to give themback, right, right, right.
You know I love them to death,but you know it's, it's, it's.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
The wiring is different for me, I guess I
literally went to my friend'shouse Was it yesterday, it was
yesterday or the day before totake her daughter a cupcake for
her birthday.
And one six and the other istwo.
Well, the two year old is pickme up, me up, pick me up, pick
me up.
So I'm picking her up, throwingher in there.
You know stuff like that.
Five minutes, my arms are tired.
I'm like I'm tired, I'm tired.
(26:16):
She's like do it again, do itagain.
And I was like how do you dothis?
I was like, how do you keep thebitter taint?
I was like, because I can't sithere, do this for eight hours
on end.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yeah, exactly, that's so true and you know there's so
much burnout that comes with itand I feel like the mom burnout
is so real, mom depression isso real.
I work with so many moms andthey tell me things that they
feel like they're never allowedto say it out loud.
Yeah, they say exhausted, theysay they love their, they love
their kid, but they also lovetheir sleep and sometimes it's
(26:48):
so frustrating and they take itout on their kids and you know
how can you blame them whenthey're doing the job of five
people?
Speaker 1 (26:55):
And that's why I'm glad we're doing this podcast,
because we may get some negativefeedback on it, and that is
completely fine.
I'm fine with that.
But at the same time, I thinkwe're giving women who have
children the autonomy and theright to say out loud sometimes
I hate it.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Sometimes I hate it.
Sometimes I'm exhausted.
Sometimes I hate it.
Sometimes I'm exhausted.
Sometimes I just want to have afull meal without being
interrupted five times, or go tothe bathroom or take a shower,
exactly, and you know it's sointeresting.
My best friend does this and Ilove her to death for doing this
.
She validates my child-freechoices whenever she gets an
opportunity.
She'll be like okay, by the way, my youngest wanted braces and
(27:31):
this is what it costs.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
In case you're ever confused about it, I'll be like
keep them coming because yeahWell, my friend will send me
memes all the time that saysthings like must be nice to be
child free over there, and it'llhave like a crazy like meme or
something and I'll be like butalso there's also sadness to it,
right, like to be completelyhonest, sometimes like it is
(27:55):
lonely.
I don't have a partner, I don'thave children.
I work with geriatric patientsin assisted living facilities
and I see some of them withoutchildren.
I'm like this is where I'mgoing to be.
I ain't got no kids to takecare of me.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
You know, yeah, but you know I'm going to play
devil's advocate and also saybecause this is again so many
people have talked to me aboutthis and I've thought about it
so hard people having kids sothat you want somebody to take
care of you I personally thinkthat's like really selfish yeah,
no, yeah, that's your onlyreason.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah, for sure it's like you.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
I had this huge argument with my friend I want
to say a male friend a fewmonths ago on the phone and he
was like this is why I want tohave kids.
When I get older, somebody willbe there for me and this and
this, and that I'm like thatdude, first of all, love you as
a friend and all, but this isvery selfish.
And then he was like why isthat selfish?
I'm going to take care of mydad, I'm going to do that for my
(28:52):
dad.
But I said, yeah, but you aredoing it out of your free will.
You are doing it from the loveof your heart and the kindness
of your heart.
Your dad has never told you totake care of him.
I know that and he was likeyou're right.
But I said this is different.
You're expecting your child,that child, to take care of you
(29:15):
and it was.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
It was like a huge discussion that we know and I
know every time I say that toyou you'll go.
That is not guaranteed and I'mlike, well, you got a point.
They might hate me.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
You know, it's never guaranteed Like for me.
I'm the only child for myparents and my parents have
never once told me we want youto come back to India, we want
you to take care of us, we wantyou to do this.
They have never.
Maybe they've thought about itin their minds, but they've
never put that kind of pressureon me.
Now do I want to do it,abso-fucking-lutely.
I am going to do it.
(29:44):
I know that I'm going to do it.
It's not right now, but I thinkexpecting that from somebody
and having children for thosesix, it's, it's just.
I just think that that's so.
That's so wrong on so manylevels Right now.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Like we always do, we're going to go back to the
statistics.
We got off on a little tangentthere.
So another statistic was sayingthat women under 50, which that
was just an odd statement whenI looked this up because I'm
like, well, that is childbearingage, so like we're not talking
about 50.
And anyways, women under 50 arelikely to not want kids, and
(30:21):
this is by Pew Research Center.
So 47% of women under 50 werelikely to not want kids in 2023.
And then unlikely to ever havechildren my notes are kind of
sucking here Unluckily to everhave children, that was only 37%
in 2018.
(30:41):
So it was 47% in 2023 and then37% in 2018.
And then 64% of women just donot want children, and 50% also
said that.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
So it is obviously higher in the the, which is odd
because you would think it wouldbe I know you think it would be
vice versa really would thinkit would be vice versa, because
I have actually been around moremen that don't want to have
kids than more women that don'twant to have kids.
So that's interesting, thatthat's the statistics, um, that
that's being presented, andagain, like we are coming from a
(31:15):
place where we've both madepersonal choices.
But again, if I come to it, tothis discussion, am I going to
miss out on the motherhoodexperience?
Do I sometimes feel like I willmiss out on the motherhood
experience and will never knowhow it feels to love and care
for another person, anotherbeing that much?
Absolutely?
Sometimes I think that, oh,maybe I am missing out, you know
(31:36):
, maybe, maybe this is thegreatest experience, because
I've also talked to mothers andI've asked them hey, if you have
to do this, will you do it?
And they're like, yeah, I willdo it, but this is something
I'll do differently and this issomething I'll change
differently, right, yeah?
And sometimes I feel like, oh,yeah, that seems like such a
beautiful, rewarding experience,but I think for me personally,
(31:56):
the negatives outweigh thepositives.
So that's like a personalchoice.
And again for somebody else,they would say you know, this
outweigh the negatives for meand I really want to have that
motherhood experience.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Right Now I don't know if this is Guinness or
Guinness, because I suck atpronouncing things sometimes,
but it says 62% of women whointended to have kids.
Half of those were unsure thatthey would follow through with
it Interesting and then withfertility and intention.
For the women between ages 20and 39, it went from an average
(32:29):
of 2.3 children in 2012 to anaverage of 1.8 children in 2023,
which I'm sure is a huge dropbecause women used to have like
five to nine children back inthe olden days.
Yeah, but yeah, most homes wereaveraging 2.3 children in 2012.
And then it was 1.8 children in2023.
(32:51):
I don't ever understand the 0.3and the 0.8 because, like, how
do you have half a, half a human?
But anyways, that's the, that'sthe stats, and then the
fertility.
So this is where we get intothe childless.
Fertility rates decreased um umto 1.62 in 2023, and that's the
lowest it's been since 1979.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Wow, and I mean that could be a lot of like processed
foods, inflammation, the thingswe put in our bodies, a lot of
environmental factors could.
Oh for sure.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
For sure.
So I know we mentioned our topwhat we thought, while women
weren't.
So there are some top reasonswhy women don't want children.
So number one is women justsimply don't want them, and 57%
of people were just saying Ijust simply don't want a child.
Number two they're focusing ontheir aspirations, their career
(33:46):
and their interests, and I thinkthat goes back to what we
mentioned earlier, like I thinkthat, as society has changed,
women have more autonomy insociety, so we are taking
advantage of that.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
That's right, because we can at this point.
So that's our choice right now.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
And then three financial constraints.
So we got some stats on that.
So children are expensive.
Everybody knows that.
I'm sure parents are like, yes,they are, and so that's one of
the reasons like I said, Imentioned earlier that, the
reasons why I didn't want achild because of how expensive
they were.
And I actually got interestedin this because it was random
(34:25):
it's probably because my phoneheard me, but I was listening to
a TikTok from this lady inBritain that was talking about
crazy things Americans do andshe was talking about how
expensive it was just to go tothe hospital and deliver your
child and she was like how richare Americans?
Because she was basicallytalking about how our health
insurance sucks.
So here's some stats on howexpensive it is in the US in
(34:46):
2025 of cost of having andraising a child.
So one-time cost of having ababy pregnancy, delivery and
postpartum care average $18,865,with $2,854 of that typically
out of pocket if you're insured.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Okay, if you're insured.
Okay, wow, yeah delivery.
I don't know the percentage ofuninsured moms versus insured
moms, but that's good numbers.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Delivery costs vary roughly $14,768 for a vaginal
birth and around $26,280 for aC-section Whoa, and that's with
insurance.
I mean, that's the cost of it.
Then, of course, depending onyour insurance plan, it's going
to pay different.
So that's the cost of itwithout insurance and then your
(35:35):
insurance plan is going to pickup whatever it picks, depending
on your plan.
Ongoing annual costs to raise achild national averages, which
was adjusted in 2025, adoptedUSDA inflation adjustments
suggest annual cost of about$18,761 per child annually.
(35:56):
Wow, lendingtree's 2025estimate the annual cost has
surged to around $30,000, whichadds to a staggering $300,000
over 18 years old or sorry, over18 years, through age 17.
Years old or sorry over 18years through age 17.
(36:18):
So from birth to age 17, itwould probably cost you $300,000
to raise one child Living inmajor metro areas.
this is by smart asset.
So, like Boston, cambridge,newton, it's approximately
$39,221 per year to raise achild.
If you're looking in SanFrancisco, oakland, fremont,
california area, it'sapproximately $38,981 to raise a
(36:42):
child, and then in the top 10metros it ranges between $30,000
and $39,000 annually.
The lowest cost metro area,like places like Alabama,
southern States $19,082 annually, and then of that made up of
childcare was $8,570 annually,housing was $1,520.
(37:05):
Food was $1,993.
Medical was $2,615.
Transportation was $3,118 andother costs.
Snapshot summary.
Sorry, that was that washighlighted.
So geography matters, obviouslywhen you're raising a child.
So, like urban areas likeBoston or San Francisco are
dramatically increased in annualchild costs, while regions like
(37:27):
Birmingham, alabama, are farmore affordable.
Childcare is often the biggestchunk and it's rising quickly.
More affordable child care isoften the biggest chunk and it's
rising quickly.
Lendingtree noted a 51.8%increase in average annual child
care costs from 2023 to 2025.
It went from $11,752 to $17,836.
(37:47):
And childbirth remainsexpensive even for insured
families, and out of pocketcosts can still be substantial.
So you got a budget for a childand most households with the
economy where it is, even peopleworking two jobs.
That's why I'm like I don'tknow how people do it.
I really don't know how peopledo it, because I know what I was
making a couple of years agoand on my salary alone I was
(38:11):
doing just enough to save moneyfor retirement and to pay my
bills.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
And that was with no kids or nothing.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah, people have to like scram and somehow they just
make it work.
And if I look at the numbers,even I don't know Right right.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
So the financial constraints, I can understand a
huge thing, especially in theeconomy.
I think that we're gettingsmarter.
Like prior it would be like, ohscrew it, we'll figure it out,
we'll make it work.
But I think at this point, likeit's getting harder to just
make it work in this economy.
Like when your house is like anormal house, when you're
talking like, even in the South,like a normal house I live in a
(38:49):
three bedroom, two bath house,normal size house, my house now,
like in 2025, no-transcript,you know, yeah, yeah.
So like when I'm thinking halfa million dollar home, I'm
thinking like huge houses in themountains on the side.
(39:09):
You know what I'm saying.
So I cannot completelyunderstand.
That's one of my reasons notsaying that I like don't make
good money now, but at the endof the day, you don't ever know
when a job is going to leave youand then what?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
there's just so much unpredictability.
I think for me my reason comesdown to things are unpredictable
anyway, then why would I bringanother human go through this
wave of unpredictability?
I'm having to regulate myselfand figure my own stuff out and,
you know, do my business andyou know, just be a good human.
Right, I do so many things toshow up and be a good person and
(39:44):
be a good person and be a goodhuman and be a good friend.
I just personally don't havethe bandwidth or have the, I
guess, the courage to bringanother human into this
unpredictable territory which iscalled life.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Well, I have one that I know like I have really bad.
Well, it's not really bad, it'sundiagnosed OCD.
It's not really bad, butitiagnosed OCD it's not really
bad.
But it gets worse when myanxiety is worse and I, when I
used to watch my nieces andnephews, like I could picture
things.
I'd be like they're gonna tripand fall and bust their head on
that curb and then, and thenwhat do I do?
And then what do I do?
Like I have these like thoughtsof like my my aunt calls it
(40:20):
catastrophic thinking and likeit's it's probably not gonna
happen.
But like I worry so much, likewhen I would have to babysit
them, I would just worryconstantly like what if they
swallow that lego and they chokemy sister's?
Like what about?
What am I gonna do?
My sister's gonna kill me, youknow that's all.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
That's almost like survival thinking.
It's thinking for survival,brain kicking in, you know yeah,
but going back to the topreasons, um.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
So number three was financial constraints.
Number four environment andfuture.
Future concerns, which youtouched on a little bit, like
climate change.
Like I tell this to my friendsand my friend my friend had a
baby, I think he he'll be a yearold soon and I said this
probably when he was six monthsold.
I was like are you not worriedabout the climate?
And like is your child evengoing to get to grow up?
She was like jonna.
I was like I'm serious, serious.
(41:02):
Like like I I think in severalyears that our houses will not,
like our air conditioners arenot going to be able to keep up
with this heat.
I mean, I pray that doesn'thappen.
But like we need to startfiguring out some kind of energy
grid, because we keep gettingemails from you know utility
companies like try not to runheavy equipment, like we don't
(41:23):
have enough energy.
And I'm just like what are we?
Okay, but are we working onthat?
Speaker 2 (41:27):
What are we?
What are we actually going todo?
What are the tangible changeswhere we're implementing today
to make sure that doesn't happentomorrow?
These are those are also myconcerns, right.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Yeah, number five was desire for personal freedom.
That's what I touched on, likeI want to be able to go where I
want to go when I want to go.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Exactly, I think.
For me that's huge.
I've always valued freedom froma young age and that's just not
changed.
That's just never changed forme.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Yeah, number six lack of societal and workplace
support, which is completelytrue, like maternity leave in
the US is minimum four to sixweeks, depending on your
company's policy and plans.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Yeah, and in Germany it's six months.
How does that happen in theStates?
How do they expect you tobounce back so much?
Speaker 1 (42:13):
And I think, paternity leave, like some
companies don't even offer it.
And then if they do offer it,they may get one to two weeks.
And let's think about that fora second.
If your partner had a C-section, where they just cut through
all the abdominal wall, all theabdominal muscles, and if you've
ever had an abdominal surgeryand you're trying to get up, you
(42:36):
know that you use your abs foreverything to get out of the bed
, to get out of a chair, tostand up.
And now you rush me out of thehospital chair to stand up.
And now you, you rushed me outof the hospital, you send me
home where I need to heal, whichwe all know.
It takes at least at minimum sixweeks to heal from a surgery.
And what's the first thing?
If you have an orthopedicsurgery, that the ortho doctor
(42:57):
does go to physical therapy.
But in America do we sendpeople to pelvic floor therapy
to help strengthen their pelvicfloor so that they can get up
and that they're not havingdiastasis recti and all this
other complications from justgiving birth?
No, we don't, because you haveto pay for that out of pocket,
because insurance doesn't coverit.
So now you have all this, butsend me home with a newborn,
with my stomach cut open and nohusband to help me.
(43:20):
But I'm not supposed to lift,I'm not supposed to get you know
what I'm saying.
Go backwards.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Like but I'm not supposed to lift, I'm not
supposed to get, you know whatI'm saying.
Go backwards, like how does onemake that work?
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Exactly, Exactly, and it's just like.
It makes me so sad that wewe've come so far to really, if
you think about it, not come sofar.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Exactly, yeah, we've come so far in terms of
technology and AI, but whatabout common sense?
Speaker 1 (43:42):
people Like how, how do you do that?
But other countries, countries,do that, like other countries
like offer these things and it'slike we're supposed to be quote
unquote one of the bestcountries in the world but we
can't even support what.
I'm not gonna say that, that'llbe too controversial.
That's for another number sevenpeople have top reasons of not
having children past trauma orfamily experiences, which we
(44:05):
kind of touched on.
Number eight physical andmental concerns or health
concerns, like if you have agenetic disorder that you're
afraid to pass down to a child.
Number nine stigma or socialpressure to have a child.
And then my favorite that Iwant to get into and talk about
is child free is not anti-child.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Oh, that is such a big one, because when I see a
baby and the baby is cute andsmiling all I want to do is
squish it and carry it and playwith it and spend time with it,
like I love children, yeah same.
They are the most fascinatingpeople.
They are so open, they are raw,they're innocent.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
I love how honest they are.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Love, how honest they are, their creativity is still
magical to me every day.
It's just.
It blows my mind on howexpansive their hearts are, how
easily they're able to forgive.
I think they're just greathuman beings.
I think they're great peopleyou know, and so that that
obviously means I love them.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
you know like them, so that that's a very good point
that you brought up and I just,and so, like me and my my best
friend Lori, we Snapchat.
Yes, guys, I said I was almost40.
We still Snapchat, but I thinkit's okay for women to Snapchat
Maybe not men so much.
I know it's a double standard,but it is what it is and I
Snapchat with my friend Lori,mostly because she lives in
Tennessee and we don't get tosee each other.
(45:32):
So it's almost like we're videochatting when we have time and
her daughter, chloe, cracks meup, like cracks me up, like
she'll, she'll go, can you callJonna?
And calling Jonna isSnapchatting and so she'll
Snapchat me and like for thelongest time I couldn't
understand what she was sayingand like.
Her speech is slowly gettingbetter, but now she does TikTok
videos where she's like cookingand you've got to follow her.
(45:54):
So I also love children.
It's just the fact that I don'twant to take them home and take
care of them.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
That's exactly, and I've told this to so many of my
close friends, best friends.
I will say you can leave themhere for several days, go on
your vacation, have fun.
10 days, 20 days, you can leavethem here, no problem, I will
take care.
But that's easy for me to say,because it's not permanent.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Well then people ask me because I'm, you know, I'm
dating, I'm in the dating world,or whatever.
They're like, well, what if aguy has kids?
I was like that's not a dealbreaker for me.
I'm not saying that I don'twant children, that didn't come
from me, that's exactly right.
Like I'm, like I'm fine witheverybody else's kids.
It's just that I personally,something in me, didn't
personally want to deliver achild, you know, and I think
that's okay.
I think that I mean, somebody'sgot to stop the overpopulation
of the earth, right, why not me?
I'm just saying like, if we'reso overpopulated and they're
worried about where we're goingto have like people living
(46:53):
instead of trying to find placeson Mars, I'll just contribute
to the.
You know one lessoverpopulation over here.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
And you know something that I want to touch
base on really quickly for thesocietal point, I feel like
things have evolved a lot morein a worldly level.
For sure, I'm seeing a bigshift.
And you know something that Iwant to touch base on really
quickly for the societal point,I feel like things have evolved
a lot more in a worldly level.
For sure, I'm seeing a bigshift, especially in the country
that I come from, which is I'mfrom India, born and raised
(47:20):
right.
Every time I used to go backwhen I was in my 20s, I would
get questioned by nosy relativesand extended family and they'll
be like when is the good news?
Like when are you going to tellus the good news?
And when?
When is this happening, nothappening?
And you know that has shifted alot now.
It has Back.
These days they don't ask that.
They don't ask even my otherfriends that have kids.
It's not, I mean, I'm notsaying they never ask, but it's
(47:40):
not as much as it used to be.
And that's, I think, good,because I think the world is
catching up to this.
Okay, some people don't havechildren and it could be various
reasons.
It could be health, it could bepersonal, but let's not keep
poking at that, let's not keepinterfering with that.
So I'm seeing that change in acollective way.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Yeah, I was about to say I don't think it's because
we're choosing to not havechildren.
I think it's because of howmuch infertility is on the rise.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
So it's a very touchy subject to ask a female like
when are you going to have achild, when you don't know how
long they have been tryinganother thing is, you don't know
, financially they're able tohave the bandwidth to support
another child you don't know andhas health issues, or the wife
(48:29):
has health issues.
There's so many reasons hiddenwhich you can't see just when
you see them on social media orwhen you see them at an event.
You just don't.
They seem good and they seemhappy, but you don't know what
happens behind closed doors.
And I think people are startingto realize that because it's
starting to happen behind theirclosed doors, right right
daughters, it's starting tohappen behind their closed doors
, right right Daughters, it'sstarting to happen to their
sisters and their nieces.
And so I feel like, becausereality is hitting so hard in
(48:53):
terms of infertility, like yousaid, and the health reasons
growing insanely in all parts ofthe world, I think people are
starting to become morerespectful of boundaries.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
For sure I agree, and it's funny that you said that
when you went back to India thatwould, because when I so I'm
from a very small town and liketo me where I live is like
what's becoming a bigger city.
But when I would go home, likeespecially in my 20s, it was
like when are you going to bemarried?
When are you going to have kids?
And I was like I'm literally afreshman in college.
(49:25):
What are you talking about?
Like what?
But at the same time, like allmy friends were getting married
and you know I was very behindthe game because I moved away
from a small town and that'sjust what it was.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
You know, that's just what it was Exactly.
And again, guys like I again,this is my personal values.
I'm not saying you have to takeor leave anything from this.
I think that people thatgenuinely want to have children,
that love children, that wantthe journey, that want the
experience, have fun, Go, tryand have kids and enjoy your
life, be a part of that journey,fulfill your purpose.
(49:57):
But I think people that are onthe fence should be allowed to
say that, hey, I'm on the fenceand I don't know, and out to say
that, hey, I'm on the fence andI don't know, and that's okay.
You don't have to always havean answer.
There was many years in betweenwhen I was on the fence and,
thank God, nobody forced me tosay you should either be a yes
or you should be a no.
You can sometimes be confusedand evaluate all your options.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Yeah, and also don't add us if you see us with a
child in two years, because younever know where life's going to
take you on a journey.
And then, if we do have kids,they can listen to this podcast
and go uh-huh, uh-huh, what,yeah?
So don't add us, because peopleare allowed to change their
minds they're allowed to changetheir minds.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
I mean, my parents decided they didn't want to have
kids in the beginning and thenthey changed their minds.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
So you know, I've had friends, friends that they
didn't want children and then,like it was, you know, like
obviously they weren't usingprotection and it happened.
And then they were like youknow what, I did not want kids.
But I'm so glad it happened tome because I did not know I
could love someone this much or,you know, whatever the case may
(51:02):
be.
But like I've had friends wherethey were like, yeah, I didn't
want kids, and then now here Iam and I love being a mom.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
Yeah, absolutely so.
You know, the one thing which Ithink we highlighted over and
over again in this episode isthat life is unpredictable.
People are unpredictable.
We change our minds, we changeit back, we change it again, and
when somebody says this, mychoice or I'm on the fence, just
you know, our only takeaway orgiveaway in this podcast will be
(51:30):
just, be okay with that.
Just it's okay for people to beconfused, it's okay for
somebody to have a completelydifferent opinion from yours and
completely different beliefsystems, and I think the more we
can hold space for everyone andtheir different choices, I feel
like the more we're coming inunity, we're growing together.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Yeah, agreed.
Well, I think this is a greattopic, so thank you for doing
this with me.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
As always, guys, until next time and we will
catch you on the next one.
Bye-bye.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Bye you.
What is up everyone?
Welcome back to another episodeof the Babbles Nonsense podcast
.
As promised from last week'stangent, me and Minyu are diving
into why motherhood is oftentreated like a default setting,
something women are expected tostep into without question, but
more and more women are sayingno thanks.
Choosing to be child free isn'tabout what's missing.
(00:21):
It's about defining your lifeon your own terms.
In this episode, we'reunpacking what it really means
to live child-free by choice.
We'll talk about thedifferences between being
child-free and childless, whylanguage matters and what the
latest research tells us aboutthis cultural shift.
And spoiler, the numbers don'tlie Nearly one in three adults
without children now say theynever want them, and women are
(00:42):
leading that change.
We'll dive into the stigma, theso-called selfish label and the
freedom that comes with makinga choice many people still don't
understand.
We'll also explore the grayareas what it means to be on the
fence, how personal stories andrelationships can shift our
perspective and why changingyour mind isn't weakness, it's
growth.
And, most importantly, we'llchallenge the myth that being
(01:03):
child-free means beinganti-child, because living fully
without parenthood isn't aboutrejecting kids.
It's about embracing freedom,purpose and joy in a different
way.
So let's get into it, the cost,the culture, the conversations
and the courage it takes to sayparenthood just isn't for me
(01:40):
welcome back beautiful peopleinto another episode with
Babbles, nonsense and TranscendInto Wellness.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Obviously, after last week's episode, we got on a
roll again and we might be doinga few back to backs, so yeah
agreed.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Here we are.
So this is a hot topic that meand my friends actually talk
about quite a bit, and we we didget off on it last week a
little bit, so we were likelet's just do a whole podcast on
it.
So it's about how some womenchoose not to have children and
that's a choice they made.
We're not talking about, like,when people have infertility
issues or stuff like that.
(02:14):
We're talking about it trulyjust being a choice not to have
a child.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Yeah, and it's obviously still a big stigma and
it's still taboo to say it outloud.
Yes, it's 2025, but it's stilltaboo.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Right.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Agreed.
And you know, I think a lot ofpeople misunderstand on how we
define the choice, meaning likeyou can say I'm childless or you
can say I'm child free.
Right, and I choose to say thatI'm child free and Jonna
chooses the same thing.
Because, yes, all thebiological markers may still be
great, our health might be ingreat shape.
(02:50):
Whatever that is, this is aconscious decision we've made
due to several reasons that wehave already thought about so
much in the last few years.
So I guess the first thingwould be how do you want to be
identified?
Do you want to say I'mchildless or Do you want to say
I'm childless or do you want tosay I'm child free?
Because when you say I'm childfree, you come to more owning
that choice rather than sayingchildless, which is all like the
(03:14):
universe or God doesn't want meto give me a child, so
childless.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
you know right, yeah, and like when?
When I read this I was like, oh, that's a good point, because
language does matter around this, because there is a lot of
infertility issues and so somewomen who do desperately want
that and then they're not giventhat choice.
They are childless, they're notchild free because they want
that option, and so I neverthought about it in the context
(03:40):
of that before until I startedhaving friends that were going
through infertility issues andsaw how much they were
struggling, because I could notrelate to that, because that's
not something I ever yearned foror wanted so bad.
Now I will say this I had onetime like I've never grown up,
never had that, I've never beenthat girl.
That's been like let me picturemy family, let me picture
(04:01):
myself in that wedding dress andperfect.
Never, probably because I grewup poor and I didn't ever think
it was going to happen anyways.
But there was one time when Iwas going through my health
stuff with my thyroid and thenmy hormones around the age of 30
, where the doctor was like youprobably won't be able to have
kids with your hormones likethis, and even though I knew in
(04:23):
my mind that I had already madethat choice for myself.
It did kind of sting a littlebit because I felt like then the
choice was taken away withoutme making that decision, even
though I had already made thedecision.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
And it's so interesting, right?
It's sometimes I feel like whenother people outside present
you with that choice and theymake it for you, you suddenly
you want it more.
It's like scarcity creates moreabundance in your mind, or
something.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Right, right, right.
And it was literally for abrief second that I quickly got
over that, but I was like wait aminute.
What?
What are you saying?
Speaker 2 (04:55):
No, I get it, girl.
Like for me, I think my entirelife and it's so interesting, my
entire life I wanted kids.
So I never didn't want kids.
I wanted kids when I was ateenager.
I wanted kids so I never didn'twant kids.
I wanted kids when I was ateenager, I wanted kids really.
Yeah, when I was in my I wouldsay, early 20s, late teens, I
wanted kids.
Again, I wasn't obsessed withwanting kids.
(05:15):
I want you to understand thedifference.
I was like, yeah, I want, Iwant a baby.
Like it's not like I talkedabout it, it's not like I
decided what their names are, orboy or girl.
You know how some women reallyhave it like to a yeah, but like
to a t, like everything, likethe names and this and that, how
many they want to have.
Like I've never thought aboutit to that length.
I was just like, oh, maybe Iwant children.
(05:37):
You know I want children.
They're cute.
So that's the length in which Ithought about it.
And then, after I started doinga lot of inner work and owning
my choices, and again, for me,being in United States has given
me a lot of freedom of thoughtand freedom of speech so I can
think the way I want to think.
I'm not so programmed, right?
(05:57):
Because if you live in the samecountry that you're raised,
you're pretty programmed as tohow that belief system is based
on the culture, based on thepeople you grew up with, your
parents, all of those things.
And after I moved out, when Iwas 17 and a half, I started
questioning it a little bit.
I was like do I really want it,or am I thinking that I want it
(06:20):
because that's where I, where I, come from?
So I started becoming in the.
I started getting in thein-between stages in my 20s and
I was like, maybe I'll be okayif I want it and I'll also be
okay if I don't want it.
So I got to that stage in my20s, yeah, and then in my 30s it
was just hit on the nail.
It was like I don't want kids.
So right at me if I change mymind in five years.
(06:42):
But right has been ringing truefor me for the past five years
and this hasn't changed.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
Well, I guess, yeah, I have a similar story.
I guess, like I didn't grow upjust going, nope, not having
kids, don't want that.
It was more.
So I'm the youngest of let'ssee how many are there?
One, two, three, four.
I'm the youngest of five.
So they all had started havingchildren very young.
So that my oldest sister, she'slike God, please, if she
(07:10):
listens to this, don't kill me.
I think 45 now.
So she no, she's got to beolder than that because she's I
was 10.
She was 17.
She's seven years older than me.
So, yeah, so, yeah.
So she's 45.
And so she had a baby at 17.
Then my sister had a baby at 17.
And then my brother got someonepregnant when he was 17.
So I was 10 when my oldestsister had her first child and
(07:34):
they were living with us.
So I saw the crying in themiddle of the night, I saw the
getting up.
I saw that and I'm a very lightsleeper, so I was getting up
when they were crying and I wasjust like, who wants this?
So I felt like, with all mynieces and nephews, that I had
already experienced that and so,and then, when I was in my 20s,
(07:57):
I was like, well, if it happensit happened, you know, I'm not
like not gonna be upset about it, or you know, either way, I was
very neutral to it and then,like you kind of like when I was
in my 30s, I was like, yeah, no, no, I don't think, I want this
.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
No, yeah, exactly, and I know there's just to talk
about this a little bit.
I think there's a lot of shamethat goes around for right,
especially women to say thatthey don't want children.
Because I think society labelsus as to we have to want
children.
It, it's primal.
It should be in our DNA as awoman to crave and want children
(08:28):
and to give that love andaffection to that being and
birth, that being.
It should be integral, right,because there's a lot of shame.
And so interestingly, let metell you this, this is so
interesting In my 30s, eventhough I had made a choice when
I turned 30 that I don't wantkids, I'm telling you, jonna,
there's something definitelyhormonal for women that goes on,
(08:51):
where sometimes you feel likeyou want it.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
I've never felt it, though, yeah.
I just haven't, I just haven'tfelt it.
But also I'll be 38 inliterally two months.
So wait three months.
So I'll be 38 in like literallytwo months.
So wait three months.
So I'll be 38 in three months.
And it's like I'm also at thatage where number one I mean, yes
, I know people are havingbabies later in life.
(09:16):
But at the same time, like whenyou like I'm not worried, like
I'm not thinking about that, I'mthinking like I'm going to be
40 soon.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
I don't want a 20 year old when I'm 60.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
Oh my God, that sounds crazy If you think about
it right, like like not sayingthere's anything wrong with it,
but personally, for me, that'sat the age where I want to be
like taking care of, like Iwould want like a 30, 30 year
old child or a 35 year old child.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Right, right, no, I get it.
And so you know the shame comesfrom that.
I think the shame also comesfrom talking about what is it
that you can tolerate.
For example, I had to be realwith myself and ask am I okay
being sleepless for two to threeyears or having very, very
disturbed sleep for two or threeyears?
And I had to be honest and sayno, I'm actually going to be a
(10:06):
bitch if I don't get my sleep.
I'm not going to be a good andkind person if I don't get my
sleep.
I'm going to be an unhappymother if I don't get my sleep.
That's just how brutally honestI had to get with myself to ask
yes, the idea of it sounds verynice and sweet and whatever,
whatever I'm supposed to do, butam I able to enjoy the day to
(10:28):
day?
Am I able to enjoy the journeythat comes with it and not just
look at it as this is a price orthis is a destination or this
is a checklist?
And and again I'm not sayingthe people that are listening
you have to think like this thisis just the way I'm wired and I
have to think about thesethings and I have to think about
what is it that I can tolerate?
What is it that my body cantolerate?
(10:49):
What is it that I will enjoyfrom day to day?
And the motherhood experiencedoesn't come for me in that list
of what I would enjoy day today and the things that I want
to do in a day to day basis.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
No, I have very similar thoughts on that and I
know this is where that can getinto what you were just saying.
Like people, like some peoplelabel that as selfish, but and I
used to think that because ofsocietal pressures, but then
I've had friends that have beenlike actually it's very
self-aware.
It's not selfish, because ifyou had a child and you know
this about yourself, that isselfish.
So, like I'm very similar, likeI love going to the gym, I like
(11:25):
to go early, I like to wake up,I like to do those things, I
like to be able to go at a dropof a hat.
Then if I had a kid, it's likewhat do I do with this?
What?
What do I do with this?
Speaker 2 (11:33):
yeah, you know it's.
Yeah, it's a very validquestion.
I just wish more peoplequestioned it like this.
I'm not saying you have to makea choice not to have kids.
I will never advocate foreither of those.
It's completely a differentthing.
But I think these things, theselife-changing decisions, you
have to think about them, right.
You have to do it because it'sromantic and it's the next thing
(11:54):
to do.
And oh, I love him so much so Iwant to have a kid with him,
but also let's talk about that.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Just because you want a kid, you could have all those
thoughts and you could havethat fantasy of wanting because
you love him and you want tohave a child.
Again, I could change my mindtomorrow if I fell in love with
the right person.
I don't know.
I know that my friends havetold me, like some of my friends
have had the same thoughts,like I didn't want kids and all
that.
And then when I had my kid, Iwas like how could I have never
thought about wanting this andabout wanting this and and maybe
(12:32):
that you know, but I'm justsaying like not everyone is
blessed with a partner that is,as what's the word?
Like um, accommodating, I guess, like people get pregnant off
of when that stands.
People get pregnant, you know,thinking that they're in love
with someone and didn't realizethat they were going to abuse
them later in life.
So it's not that it's and Iknow that's just everyone's yeah
, but that's just a fear.
You don't know that's going tohappen.
No, you don't.
But you also don't know thatit's not going to happen.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
That's right, and you know, what's crazy is, when I
moved to Nashville in 2018, Imet my now best friend.
I met her in a movie theaterand we just got into talking.
We watched the movie and westarted talking, went to Panera
Bread to grab some dinner andthen she was like so what's
going on with you?
And at that time I was marriedand I said you know nothing.
And we just caught up and Isaid I'm in this like dilemma
(13:11):
whether I should have kids ornot.
And she had two kids, right,and she goes.
I don't really know you.
Well, I just met you, but don'tdo it.
I will never be not thankful forher honesty, because a lot of
people want you to have it,because they have it and I hate
(13:31):
to say it, misery is amusingwith company.
They're probably like I'mmiserable, so I want you to be
miserable.
I need to do, and I did itbecause it's the right thing to
do, and you need to do itbecause it's the right thing to
do as a woman.
So a lot of people projecttheir values and their beliefs
upon someone else, thinking thatthat's their value too, and I
was just so I'm just so gratefulto have a close group of
(13:51):
friends and a lot of them havechildren and a lot of them tell
me not to have children like andnot that they don't love their
children, they absolutely lovetheir children.
They would do it all over again.
They will not change theirdecisions and you know their
minds, but they also know who Iam and they also know what I
value, and so they're being veryhonest and candid with me and I
(14:12):
really, really appreciated thathonesty that she gave me, and
my decision again is not basedon her, but I think she just
provoked the truth which isalready in me, which I wasn't
willing to see at that point.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Yeah, I mean it's a hard decision to make in me
which I wasn't willing to see atthat point.
Yeah, it's.
I mean it's it's a harddecision to make and, like now,
if I had been in a lovingrelationship, you know, in my my
later 20s, early 30s, would thedecision have been different
Possibly, like I possibly likeif, if I was with someone who
truly genuinely wanted a child,I would I'm not going to say no
to that because I was veryneutral at that time.
(14:46):
It's more so like the older Iget, it's like I'm getting
closer to that age of number one.
It's a geriatric pregnancy andthere's more health
complications and I'm not asyoung as I once was and like
it's just those types of thingsthe old, the closer I get to 40.
It's like you know, let's tiethis up and say it's done.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Right, right, no, I understand.
I mean it's a lot of people.
For them it's health, for otherpeople it's just a matter of
choice.
I feel like we're those peoplewhere it was okay, like it was
kind of open ended, in our 20sand then I think, the more we
got into our 30s, it wassolidified as we got a year
older and older.
And I think for me personally Idon't know about Jonna, but I
(15:29):
think my decision was solidifiedmore when I saw other people
around me, because I am somebodythat loves to learn from other
people's experience, like Idon't have to go through it to
learn it.
You know, I have a lot of mybest friends, the stories they
share with me and the thingsthey tell me, and for me
personally, everybody.
A lot of people have said ifyou're on the fence, then don't
(15:49):
do it.
Like if you are very sure, ifyou're excited, you know this is
a part of your purpose, then doit.
But if you're on the fence,then that means you're already
at a point where you know thatyou're not going to tolerate
some of the things.
Or you don't have the tolerancefor some of the things, or you
don't have the patience for someof the things.
That's why you're on the fence.
You're already skeptical, 50percent right, and the
motherhood experience is goingto be harder for people that are
(16:12):
on the fence because you'realready one foot in, one foot
out, yes, so I really appreciatethat candid honesty that my
friends gave, and so we reallywant to, in this episode, not
just talk about defining thechoice or how you want to frame
it or your mindset, but we alsowant to talk about statistics.
So Jonna has numbers pulled up.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
Yes, so we we wanted to be actually researched on
this podcast instead of justtalking.
So, because I've been hearing alot on TikTok and on the news
lately that how much the birthrates have declined and how many
more women are choosing not tohave kids, and I think that was
part maybe part of the politicaldebate, because it was talking
about, you know, how expensivefertility treatments were and
(16:56):
stuff like that.
So, per the Michigan StateUniversity, the people, the
women that said they neverwanted children in 2002 was 14%,
but in 2023, it climbed to 29%.
Whoa Right.
So then people who wereplanning to have children went
(17:16):
from 79% in 2002 to 59% in 2023.
So it is declining, like morewomen are choosing to not have
children.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Right, and I have so many theories on this, but I
would like to hear yourperspective first on what has
led them into this decision.
I'm not saying again, not rightor wrong.
This is the reality, right?
So what has led them to thisreality?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
I personally think, just because of our other
podcast and like doing researchon that and then me doing some
solo episodes on womenempowerment and stuff like that,
I didn't realize which is crazy.
Number one I hate history, butI didn't realize how recent it
was that women just becameautonomous, like and that we're
talking about, like their rolewasn't to sit in the house, cook
(18:05):
and clean.
They're then getting careers,you know.
They're then allowed to divorcetheir husband if they didn't
want to.
So I didn't realize, like, howrecent that was, and so I think
that now that it's even morebooming like obviously in 2025,
we're not dependent on someoneelse.
So I think, as that continuesto grow, I think we're going to
continue to see a decline.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
That's actually very true, Because remember the power
of choice, meaning you can sayno whenever you want you can.
You can change your mindtomorrow with the way things are
going, and that's how I thinkthings are headed in the future,
Like what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yeah, and I also think and this is one of the
reasons why I personally don'twant a child Like I have not
saying I've ever like I grew upin a struggling financial family
and I saw how hard my momworked, working two and three
jobs with two children who shedid have a terrible partner that
wouldn't help her until she metmy stepdad, and so I personally
(19:01):
I know how expensive this worldis and like to add a child to
that.
I'm just like how do people doit, right?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yeah, and I'm going to literally take off my life
coach hat for the next fiveminutes and I'm going to be very
real and cynical, maybe alittle cynical, but I just
honestly think life is hard.
It is hard, it is Okay.
There are things changingrapidly around us every day.
The future is unpredictablewith the way the world is headed
(19:31):
Climate change, there's just somany things happening.
And then I remember I know thisis not a big reason for
everyone, but I remember when Iwas in middle school, high
school, I hated, hated theexperience of not having choices
.
I know that that's a veryteenager, rebellious thing to
(19:51):
say, but at that time I hatedthat, I hated the school I was
going to, I hated, you know, thesubjects I had to take and the
classes I had to take.
It was just a very, very bitterexperience.
And then obviously then wedon't even have to talk about
relationships breaking up,patching up relationship,
meeting new person and thentrusting new people, and then
marriage, divorce.
I just think again, I'm notbeing a life coach for five
(20:17):
minutes.
I'm just going to talk about howhard life is.
That hardship is whether youare rich, whether you are poor.
Whatever it is, the hardship isthere.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
Like that emotional hardship.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
There is just hardship period.
There's hardship in a way thatnobody gets out alive.
Let's just talk about that fora minute.
Right right, no one get outalive in this life and I can
walk out now and have a caraccident.
I'm not wishing that, but I'mjust saying life is
unpredictable.
We can't control everything.
We can't change things the waywe want to at a time that we
(20:49):
want to.
Life is just very difficult andthere's just a lot to navigate
just for you being a person, youhaving a career, you making
money, you having sanity withyour mental health and
everything.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
There is just too many things to balance for one
person right and like you beinga life coach, like I think
trauma also plays into one ofthe reasons why I don't want to
have a child, because I don'twant to screw somebody up.
And then like it doesn't matterhow good, or like you parent the
best you can.
I know everybody does the bestthey can they get what they know
from what they, what they have.
(21:21):
Like you've always told me youdo what you do with the tools
that you have.
And so like my mom, who hadraised two me and my sister in
the same house the same way, youknow there wasn't really much
difference.
And then you know my sisterwent through all her stuff where
she was in trouble all the time.
And you know my mom we talkedabout this on the episode last
week my mom felt guilty overthat for years and you know,
(21:42):
chase that and, like me, chasingany emotional unavailable men,
because that's what I feel likelove is, because I wasn't really
like I don't want to putsomebody through that that's
exactly that, and you know I'llgive you another argument.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Jonna, this is going to blow your mind.
I have the best parents.
I have the best parents.
I don't have anything tocomplain about.
My parents and I still hadchildhood traumas.
Now let's talk that up you know, because I didn't.
I didn't have trauma like youdid when I was that young, but I
had trauma later which, oh mygod, was just unbelievable, from
the ages of 17, all the way to30.
(22:15):
It was like on and off, on andoff, on and off.
It was just life throwing medifferent curve balls and me
having to handle circumstances,handle people, handle a divorce,
being in different countrieslike having an autoimmune.
It is just a lot.
Even if you have amazingparents, life is hard.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
Yeah, it is, and so personally, I have to.
That's why I think women arechoosing that yeah that's what I
think.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
That's one of the main reasons, and I think this
is something that I hear againnot naming names at all with my
friends, but I hear from so manybest friends, close friends,
that they just don't feelsupported by their partner.
They just aren't getting thatsupport at all.
They are promised that they'regoing to be given that support.
(23:01):
The excitement is there, thecuriosity is there and all that,
but when it comes to it, whenit comes to waking up in the
middle of the night and feedingor taking them to school and
rolling them in classes afterschool activities, you making
money ain't enough, boo, likeyou got a bit, and that's just
not there.
When I see and I'm not tryingto blame men, no, no, no Are
(23:23):
incredible dads, Pretty surethat are incredible hands on
dads.
As you may listen to this, I'msure you'll find examples, but I
am just talking about thereality and the majority of what
women are facing.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Right.
Like I have several guy friendsthat are amazing dads like
amazing dads wouldn't takeanything away from them at all.
But at the same time, like Isee it with my friends and their
children, I think that eventhough society has advanced in
so many ways, we're still stuckin a mindset that women stay
home with the children and mengo to work and that's all fine
(23:56):
and good.
However, in this day andeconomy, I don't know what
family, other than very richfamilies, can afford to do that
without two incomes coming in.
And so if two incomes arecoming in and the mom has to
work 40 hours, 40 plus hours aweek and then come back and make
lunches, make dinner, clean thehouse, like it is a lot.
(24:19):
It's like I've even heard womenbe like oh, I'm just a stay at
home mom, and I'm like just astay at home.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
That is a full time job.
I never understand when peoplesay that I anytime.
Even if a client says that I'mjust a stay at home, momhome,
mom, I'll be like, no, no, no,you are a stay-at-home mom and
that is a career.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
That is a full-time job you're doing a full-time job
without any payment in returnexactly, exactly any payment
yeah, imagine if they hired ananny to do all that.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
They would be paying four to five thousand dollars by
preparing meals and a chef anda maid like how much would you
be paying right people to doeverything that a mom does?
Speaker 1 (24:55):
right and so, like, like you said, it's not all men
like I know that there aresingle dads out there doing it
all and I think that, like, whenI talk to dads or that are like
maybe they're divorced and theyhave their kids, and I've
talked to them like, and they'redoing it all, like they do have
that appreciation that they maynot once have had in the
marriage.
Not saying that they didn't doit in the marriage, I'm just
saying, like there is adifference and I know, like they
(25:18):
say, like you know the the,which we obviously don't have
experience with.
That um, what am I trying tosay?
The mother, um, the maternalinstinct, I guess, um, but it is
just different.
It is different what societyplaces on women versus a man
within a relationship and kids.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
Oh, absolutely 1000%.
Like my best friend wouldhappily leave the kids with me
and I had a lot of time to likewatch her kids.
But again, after watching them,it's an amazing experience.
And then I want to give themback, right, right, right.
You know I love them to death,but you know it's, it's, it's.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
The wiring is different for me, I guess I
literally went to my friend'shouse Was it yesterday, it was
yesterday or the day before totake her daughter a cupcake for
her birthday.
And one six and the other istwo.
Well, the two year old is pickme up, me up, pick me up, pick
me up.
So I'm picking her up, throwingher in there.
You know stuff like that.
Five minutes, my arms are tired.
I'm like I'm tired, I'm tired.
(26:16):
She's like do it again, do itagain.
And I was like how do you dothis?
I was like, how do you keep thebitter taint?
I was like, because I can't sithere, do this for eight hours
on end.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yeah, exactly, that's so true and you know there's so
much burnout that comes with itand I feel like the mom burnout
is so real, mom depression isso real.
I work with so many moms andthey tell me things that they
feel like they're never allowedto say it out loud.
Yeah, they say exhausted, theysay they love their, they love
their kid, but they also lovetheir sleep and sometimes it's
(26:48):
so frustrating and they take itout on their kids and you know
how can you blame them whenthey're doing the job of five
people?
Speaker 1 (26:55):
And that's why I'm glad we're doing this podcast,
because we may get some negativefeedback on it, and that is
completely fine.
I'm fine with that.
But at the same time, I thinkwe're giving women who have
children the autonomy and theright to say out loud sometimes
I hate it.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
Sometimes I hate it.
Sometimes I'm exhausted.
Sometimes I hate it.
Sometimes I'm exhausted.
Sometimes I just want to have afull meal without being
interrupted five times, or go tothe bathroom or take a shower,
exactly, and you know it's sointeresting.
My best friend does this and Ilove her to death for doing this
.
She validates my child-freechoices whenever she gets an
opportunity.
She'll be like okay, by the way, my youngest wanted braces and
(27:31):
this is what it costs.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
In case you're ever confused about it, I'll be like
keep them coming because yeahWell, my friend will send me
memes all the time that saysthings like must be nice to be
child free over there, and it'llhave like a crazy like meme or
something and I'll be like butalso there's also sadness to it,
right, like to be completelyhonest, sometimes like it is
(27:55):
lonely.
I don't have a partner, I don'thave children.
I work with geriatric patientsin assisted living facilities
and I see some of them withoutchildren.
I'm like this is where I'mgoing to be.
I ain't got no kids to takecare of me.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
You know, yeah, but you know I'm going to play
devil's advocate and also saybecause this is again so many
people have talked to me aboutthis and I've thought about it
so hard people having kids sothat you want somebody to take
care of you I personally thinkthat's like really selfish yeah,
no, yeah, that's your onlyreason.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah, for sure it's like you.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
I had this huge argument with my friend I want
to say a male friend a fewmonths ago on the phone and he
was like this is why I want tohave kids.
When I get older, somebody willbe there for me and this and
this, and that I'm like thatdude, first of all, love you as
a friend and all, but this isvery selfish.
And then he was like why isthat selfish?
I'm going to take care of mydad, I'm going to do that for my
(28:52):
dad.
But I said, yeah, but you aredoing it out of your free will.
You are doing it from the loveof your heart and the kindness
of your heart.
Your dad has never told you totake care of him.
I know that and he was likeyou're right.
But I said this is different.
You're expecting your child,that child, to take care of you
(29:15):
and it was.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
It was like a huge discussion that we know and I
know every time I say that toyou you'll go.
That is not guaranteed and I'mlike, well, you got a point.
They might hate me.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
You know, it's never guaranteed Like for me.
I'm the only child for myparents and my parents have
never once told me we want youto come back to India, we want
you to take care of us, we wantyou to do this.
They have never.
Maybe they've thought about itin their minds, but they've
never put that kind of pressureon me.
Now do I want to do it,abso-fucking-lutely.
I am going to do it.
(29:44):
I know that I'm going to do it.
It's not right now, but I thinkexpecting that from somebody
and having children for thosesix, it's, it's just.
I just think that that's so.
That's so wrong on so manylevels Right now.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Like we always do, we're going to go back to the
statistics.
We got off on a little tangentthere.
So another statistic was sayingthat women under 50, which that
was just an odd statement whenI looked this up because I'm
like, well, that is childbearingage, so like we're not talking
about 50.
And anyways, women under 50 arelikely to not want kids, and
(30:21):
this is by Pew Research Center.
So 47% of women under 50 werelikely to not want kids in 2023.
And then unlikely to ever havechildren my notes are kind of
sucking here Unluckily to everhave children, that was only 37%
in 2018.
(30:41):
So it was 47% in 2023 and then37% in 2018.
And then 64% of women just donot want children, and 50% also
said that.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
So it is obviously higher in the the, which is odd
because you would think it wouldbe I know you think it would be
vice versa really would thinkit would be vice versa, because
I have actually been around moremen that don't want to have
kids than more women that don'twant to have kids.
So that's interesting, thatthat's the statistics, um, that
that's being presented, andagain, like we are coming from a
(31:15):
place where we've both madepersonal choices.
But again, if I come to it, tothis discussion, am I going to
miss out on the motherhoodexperience?
Do I sometimes feel like I willmiss out on the motherhood
experience and will never knowhow it feels to love and care
for another person, anotherbeing that much?
Absolutely?
Sometimes I think that, oh,maybe I am missing out, you know
(31:36):
, maybe, maybe this is thegreatest experience, because
I've also talked to mothers andI've asked them hey, if you have
to do this, will you do it?
And they're like, yeah, I willdo it, but this is something
I'll do differently and this issomething I'll change
differently, right, yeah?
And sometimes I feel like, oh,yeah, that seems like such a
beautiful, rewarding experience,but I think for me personally,
(31:56):
the negatives outweigh thepositives.
So that's like a personalchoice.
And again for somebody else,they would say you know, this
outweigh the negatives for meand I really want to have that
motherhood experience.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Right Now I don't know if this is Guinness or
Guinness, because I suck atpronouncing things sometimes,
but it says 62% of women whointended to have kids.
Half of those were unsure thatthey would follow through with
it Interesting and then withfertility and intention.
For the women between ages 20and 39, it went from an average
(32:29):
of 2.3 children in 2012 to anaverage of 1.8 children in 2023,
which I'm sure is a huge dropbecause women used to have like
five to nine children back inthe olden days.
Yeah, but yeah, most homes wereaveraging 2.3 children in 2012.
And then it was 1.8 children in2023.
(32:51):
I don't ever understand the 0.3and the 0.8 because, like, how
do you have half a, half a human?
But anyways, that's the, that'sthe stats, and then the
fertility.
So this is where we get intothe childless.
Fertility rates decreased um umto 1.62 in 2023, and that's the
lowest it's been since 1979.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Wow, and I mean that could be a lot of like processed
foods, inflammation, the thingswe put in our bodies, a lot of
environmental factors could.
Oh for sure.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
For sure.
So I know we mentioned our topwhat we thought, while women
weren't.
So there are some top reasonswhy women don't want children.
So number one is women justsimply don't want them, and 57%
of people were just saying Ijust simply don't want a child.
Number two they're focusing ontheir aspirations, their career
(33:46):
and their interests, and I thinkthat goes back to what we
mentioned earlier, like I thinkthat, as society has changed,
women have more autonomy insociety, so we are taking
advantage of that.
Speaker 2 (33:58):
That's right, because we can at this point.
So that's our choice right now.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
And then three financial constraints.
So we got some stats on that.
So children are expensive.
Everybody knows that.
I'm sure parents are like, yes,they are, and so that's one of
the reasons like I said, Imentioned earlier that, the
reasons why I didn't want achild because of how expensive
they were.
And I actually got interestedin this because it was random
(34:25):
it's probably because my phoneheard me, but I was listening to
a TikTok from this lady inBritain that was talking about
crazy things Americans do andshe was talking about how
expensive it was just to go tothe hospital and deliver your
child and she was like how richare Americans?
Because she was basicallytalking about how our health
insurance sucks.
So here's some stats on howexpensive it is in the US in
(34:46):
2025 of cost of having andraising a child.
So one-time cost of having ababy pregnancy, delivery and
postpartum care average $18,865,with $2,854 of that typically
out of pocket if you're insured.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Okay, if you're insured.
Okay, wow, yeah delivery.
I don't know the percentage ofuninsured moms versus insured
moms, but that's good numbers.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Delivery costs vary roughly $14,768 for a vaginal
birth and around $26,280 for aC-section Whoa, and that's with
insurance.
I mean, that's the cost of it.
Then, of course, depending onyour insurance plan, it's going
to pay different.
So that's the cost of itwithout insurance and then your
(35:35):
insurance plan is going to pickup whatever it picks, depending
on your plan.
Ongoing annual costs to raise achild national averages, which
was adjusted in 2025, adoptedUSDA inflation adjustments
suggest annual cost of about$18,761 per child annually.
(35:56):
Wow, lendingtree's 2025estimate the annual cost has
surged to around $30,000, whichadds to a staggering $300,000
over 18 years old or sorry, over18 years, through age 17.
Years old or sorry over 18years through age 17.
(36:18):
So from birth to age 17, itwould probably cost you $300,000
to raise one child Living inmajor metro areas.
this is by smart asset.
So, like Boston, cambridge,newton, it's approximately
$39,221 per year to raise achild.
If you're looking in SanFrancisco, oakland, fremont,
california area, it'sapproximately $38,981 to raise a
(36:42):
child, and then in the top 10metros it ranges between $30,000
and $39,000 annually.
The lowest cost metro area,like places like Alabama,
southern States $19,082 annually, and then of that made up of
childcare was $8,570 annually,housing was $1,520.
(37:05):
Food was $1,993.
Medical was $2,615.
Transportation was $3,118 andother costs.
Snapshot summary.
Sorry, that was that washighlighted.
So geography matters, obviouslywhen you're raising a child.
So, like urban areas likeBoston or San Francisco are
dramatically increased in annualchild costs, while regions like
(37:27):
Birmingham, alabama, are farmore affordable.
Childcare is often the biggestchunk and it's rising quickly.
More affordable child care isoften the biggest chunk and it's
rising quickly.
Lendingtree noted a 51.8%increase in average annual child
care costs from 2023 to 2025.
It went from $11,752 to $17,836.
(37:47):
And childbirth remainsexpensive even for insured
families, and out of pocketcosts can still be substantial.
So you got a budget for a childand most households with the
economy where it is, even peopleworking two jobs.
That's why I'm like I don'tknow how people do it.
I really don't know how peopledo it, because I know what I was
making a couple of years agoand on my salary alone I was
(38:11):
doing just enough to save moneyfor retirement and to pay my
bills.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
Right right.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
And that was with no kids or nothing.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Yeah, people have to like scram and somehow they just
make it work.
And if I look at the numbers,even I don't know Right right.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
So the financial constraints, I can understand a
huge thing, especially in theeconomy.
I think that we're gettingsmarter.
Like prior it would be like, ohscrew it, we'll figure it out,
we'll make it work.
But I think at this point, likeit's getting harder to just
make it work in this economy.
Like when your house is like anormal house, when you're
talking like, even in the South,like a normal house I live in a
(38:49):
three bedroom, two bath house,normal size house, my house now,
like in 2025, no-transcript,you know, yeah, yeah.
So like when I'm thinking halfa million dollar home, I'm
thinking like huge houses in themountains on the side.
(39:09):
You know what I'm saying.
So I cannot completelyunderstand.
That's one of my reasons notsaying that I like don't make
good money now, but at the endof the day, you don't ever know
when a job is going to leave youand then what?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
there's just so much unpredictability.
I think for me my reason comesdown to things are unpredictable
anyway, then why would I bringanother human go through this
wave of unpredictability?
I'm having to regulate myselfand figure my own stuff out and,
you know, do my business andyou know, just be a good human.
Right, I do so many things toshow up and be a good person and
(39:44):
be a good person and be a goodhuman and be a good friend.
I just personally don't havethe bandwidth or have the, I
guess, the courage to bringanother human into this
unpredictable territory which iscalled life.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Well, I have one that I know like I have really bad.
Well, it's not really bad, it'sundiagnosed OCD.
It's not really bad, butitiagnosed OCD it's not really
bad.
But it gets worse when myanxiety is worse and I, when I
used to watch my nieces andnephews, like I could picture
things.
I'd be like they're gonna tripand fall and bust their head on
that curb and then, and thenwhat do I do?
And then what do I do?
Like I have these like thoughtsof like my my aunt calls it
(40:20):
catastrophic thinking and likeit's it's probably not gonna
happen.
But like I worry so much, likewhen I would have to babysit
them, I would just worryconstantly like what if they
swallow that lego and they chokemy sister's?
Like what about?
What am I gonna do?
My sister's gonna kill me, youknow that's all.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
That's almost like survival thinking.
It's thinking for survival,brain kicking in, you know yeah,
but going back to the topreasons, um.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
So number three was financial constraints.
Number four environment andfuture.
Future concerns, which youtouched on a little bit, like
climate change.
Like I tell this to my friendsand my friend my friend had a
baby, I think he he'll be a yearold soon and I said this
probably when he was six monthsold.
I was like are you not worriedabout the climate?
And like is your child evengoing to get to grow up?
She was like jonna.
I was like I'm serious, serious.
(41:02):
Like like I I think in severalyears that our houses will not,
like our air conditioners arenot going to be able to keep up
with this heat.
I mean, I pray that doesn'thappen.
But like we need to startfiguring out some kind of energy
grid, because we keep gettingemails from you know utility
companies like try not to runheavy equipment, like we don't
(41:23):
have enough energy.
And I'm just like what are we?
Okay, but are we working onthat?
Speaker 2 (41:27):
What are we?
What are we actually going todo?
What are the tangible changeswhere we're implementing today
to make sure that doesn't happentomorrow?
These are those are also myconcerns, right.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Yeah, number five was desire for personal freedom.
That's what I touched on, likeI want to be able to go where I
want to go when I want to go.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Exactly, I think.
For me that's huge.
I've always valued freedom froma young age and that's just not
changed.
That's just never changed forme.
Speaker 1 (41:53):
Yeah, number six lack of societal and workplace
support, which is completelytrue, like maternity leave in
the US is minimum four to sixweeks, depending on your
company's policy and plans.
Speaker 2 (42:06):
Yeah, and in Germany it's six months.
How does that happen in theStates?
How do they expect you tobounce back so much?
Speaker 1 (42:13):
And I think, paternity leave, like some
companies don't even offer it.
And then if they do offer it,they may get one to two weeks.
And let's think about that fora second.
If your partner had a C-section, where they just cut through
all the abdominal wall, all theabdominal muscles, and if you've
ever had an abdominal surgeryand you're trying to get up, you
(42:36):
know that you use your abs foreverything to get out of the bed
, to get out of a chair, tostand up.
And now you rush me out of thehospital chair to stand up.
And now you, you rushed me outof the hospital, you send me
home where I need to heal, whichwe all know.
It takes at least at minimum sixweeks to heal from a surgery.
And what's the first thing?
If you have an orthopedicsurgery, that the ortho doctor
(42:57):
does go to physical therapy.
But in America do we sendpeople to pelvic floor therapy
to help strengthen their pelvicfloor so that they can get up
and that they're not havingdiastasis recti and all this
other complications from justgiving birth?
No, we don't, because you haveto pay for that out of pocket,
because insurance doesn't coverit.
So now you have all this, butsend me home with a newborn,
with my stomach cut open and nohusband to help me.
(43:20):
But I'm not supposed to lift,I'm not supposed to get you know
what I'm saying.
Go backwards.
Speaker 2 (43:23):
Like but I'm not supposed to lift, I'm not
supposed to get, you know whatI'm saying.
Go backwards, like how does onemake that work?
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Exactly, Exactly, and it's just like.
It makes me so sad that wewe've come so far to really, if
you think about it, not come sofar.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
Exactly, yeah, we've come so far in terms of
technology and AI, but whatabout common sense?
Speaker 1 (43:42):
people Like how, how do you do that?
But other countries, countries,do that, like other countries
like offer these things and it'slike we're supposed to be quote
unquote one of the bestcountries in the world but we
can't even support what.
I'm not gonna say that, that'llbe too controversial.
That's for another number sevenpeople have top reasons of not
having children past trauma orfamily experiences, which we
(44:05):
kind of touched on.
Number eight physical andmental concerns or health
concerns, like if you have agenetic disorder that you're
afraid to pass down to a child.
Number nine stigma or socialpressure to have a child.
And then my favorite that Iwant to get into and talk about
is child free is not anti-child.
Speaker 2 (44:30):
Oh, that is such a big one, because when I see a
baby and the baby is cute andsmiling all I want to do is
squish it and carry it and playwith it and spend time with it,
like I love children, yeah same.
They are the most fascinatingpeople.
They are so open, they are raw,they're innocent.
Speaker 1 (44:50):
I love how honest they are.
Speaker 2 (44:53):
Love, how honest they are, their creativity is still
magical to me every day.
It's just.
It blows my mind on howexpansive their hearts are, how
easily they're able to forgive.
I think they're just greathuman beings.
I think they're great peopleyou know, and so that that
obviously means I love them.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
you know like them, so that that's a very good point
that you brought up and I just,and so, like me and my my best
friend Lori, we Snapchat.
Yes, guys, I said I was almost40.
We still Snapchat, but I thinkit's okay for women to Snapchat
Maybe not men so much.
I know it's a double standard,but it is what it is and I
Snapchat with my friend Lori,mostly because she lives in
Tennessee and we don't get tosee each other.
(45:32):
So it's almost like we're videochatting when we have time and
her daughter, chloe, cracks meup, like cracks me up, like
she'll, she'll go, can you callJonna?
And calling Jonna isSnapchatting and so she'll
Snapchat me and like for thelongest time I couldn't
understand what she was sayingand like.
Her speech is slowly gettingbetter, but now she does TikTok
videos where she's like cookingand you've got to follow her.
(45:54):
So I also love children.
It's just the fact that I don'twant to take them home and take
care of them.
Speaker 2 (46:00):
That's exactly, and I've told this to so many of my
close friends, best friends.
I will say you can leave themhere for several days, go on
your vacation, have fun.
10 days, 20 days, you can leavethem here, no problem, I will
take care.
But that's easy for me to say,because it's not permanent.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Well then people ask me because I'm, you know, I'm
dating, I'm in the dating world,or whatever.
They're like, well, what if aguy has kids?
I was like that's not a dealbreaker for me.
I'm not saying that I don'twant children, that didn't come
from me, that's exactly right.
Like I'm, like I'm fine witheverybody else's kids.
It's just that I personally,something in me, didn't
personally want to deliver achild, you know, and I think
that's okay.
I think that I mean, somebody'sgot to stop the overpopulation
of the earth, right, why not me?
I'm just saying like, if we'reso overpopulated and they're
worried about where we're goingto have like people living
(46:53):
instead of trying to find placeson Mars, I'll just contribute
to the.
You know one lessoverpopulation over here.
Speaker 2 (47:00):
And you know something that I want to touch
base on really quickly for thesocietal point, I feel like
things have evolved a lot morein a worldly level.
For sure, I'm seeing a bigshift.
And you know something that Iwant to touch base on really
quickly for the societal point,I feel like things have evolved
a lot more in a worldly level.
For sure, I'm seeing a bigshift, especially in the country
that I come from, which is I'mfrom India, born and raised
(47:20):
right.
Every time I used to go backwhen I was in my 20s, I would
get questioned by nosy relativesand extended family and they'll
be like when is the good news?
Like when are you going to tellus the good news?
And when?
When is this happening, nothappening?
And you know that has shifted alot now.
It has Back.
These days they don't ask that.
They don't ask even my otherfriends that have kids.
It's not, I mean, I'm notsaying they never ask, but it's
(47:40):
not as much as it used to be.
And that's, I think, good,because I think the world is
catching up to this.
Okay, some people don't havechildren and it could be various
reasons.
It could be health, it could bepersonal, but let's not keep
poking at that, let's not keepinterfering with that.
So I'm seeing that change in acollective way.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Yeah, I was about to say I don't think it's because
we're choosing to not havechildren.
I think it's because of howmuch infertility is on the rise.
Speaker 2 (48:09):
So it's a very touchy subject to ask a female like
when are you going to have achild, when you don't know how
long they have been tryinganother thing is, you don't know
, financially they're able tohave the bandwidth to support
another child you don't know andhas health issues, or the wife
(48:29):
has health issues.
There's so many reasons hiddenwhich you can't see just when
you see them on social media orwhen you see them at an event.
You just don't.
They seem good and they seemhappy, but you don't know what
happens behind closed doors.
And I think people are startingto realize that because it's
starting to happen behind theirclosed doors, right right
daughters, it's starting tohappen behind their closed doors
, right right Daughters, it'sstarting to happen to their
sisters and their nieces.
And so I feel like, becausereality is hitting so hard in
(48:53):
terms of infertility, like yousaid, and the health reasons
growing insanely in all parts ofthe world, I think people are
starting to become morerespectful of boundaries.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
For sure I agree, and it's funny that you said that
when you went back to India thatwould, because when I so I'm
from a very small town and liketo me where I live is like
what's becoming a bigger city.
But when I would go home, likeespecially in my 20s, it was
like when are you going to bemarried?
When are you going to have kids?
And I was like I'm literally afreshman in college.
(49:25):
What are you talking about?
Like what?
But at the same time, like allmy friends were getting married
and you know I was very behindthe game because I moved away
from a small town and that'sjust what it was.
Speaker 2 (49:37):
You know, that's just what it was Exactly.
And again, guys like I again,this is my personal values.
I'm not saying you have to takeor leave anything from this.
I think that people thatgenuinely want to have children,
that love children, that wantthe journey, that want the
experience, have fun, Go, tryand have kids and enjoy your
life, be a part of that journey,fulfill your purpose.
(49:57):
But I think people that are onthe fence should be allowed to
say that, hey, I'm on the fenceand I don't know, and out to say
that, hey, I'm on the fence andI don't know, and that's okay.
You don't have to always havean answer.
There was many years in betweenwhen I was on the fence and,
thank God, nobody forced me tosay you should either be a yes
or you should be a no.
You can sometimes be confusedand evaluate all your options.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Yeah, and also don't add us if you see us with a
child in two years, because younever know where life's going to
take you on a journey.
And then, if we do have kids,they can listen to this podcast
and go uh-huh, uh-huh, what,yeah?
So don't add us, because peopleare allowed to change their
minds they're allowed to changetheir minds.
Speaker 2 (50:36):
I mean, my parents decided they didn't want to have
kids in the beginning and thenthey changed their minds.
Speaker 1 (50:41):
So you know, I've had friends, friends that they
didn't want children and then,like it was, you know, like
obviously they weren't usingprotection and it happened.
And then they were like youknow what, I did not want kids.
But I'm so glad it happened tome because I did not know I
could love someone this much or,you know, whatever the case may
(51:02):
be.
But like I've had friends wherethey were like, yeah, I didn't
want kids, and then now here Iam and I love being a mom.
Speaker 2 (51:09):
Yeah, absolutely so.
You know, the one thing which Ithink we highlighted over and
over again in this episode isthat life is unpredictable.
People are unpredictable.
We change our minds, we changeit back, we change it again, and
when somebody says this, mychoice or I'm on the fence, just
you know, our only takeaway orgiveaway in this podcast will be
(51:30):
just, be okay with that.
Just it's okay for people to beconfused, it's okay for
somebody to have a completelydifferent opinion from yours and
completely different beliefsystems, and I think the more we
can hold space for everyone andtheir different choices, I feel
like the more we're coming inunity, we're growing together.
Speaker 1 (51:48):
Yeah, agreed.
Well, I think this is a greattopic, so thank you for doing
this with me.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
As always, guys, until next time and we will
catch you on the next one.
Bye-bye.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Bye you.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Law & Order: Criminal Justice System - Season 1 & Season 2
Season Two Out Now! Law & Order: Criminal Justice System tells the real stories behind the landmark cases that have shaped how the most dangerous and influential criminals in America are prosecuted. In its second season, the series tackles the threat of terrorism in the United States. From the rise of extremist political groups in the 60s to domestic lone wolves in the modern day, we explore how organizations like the FBI and Joint Terrorism Take Force have evolved to fight back against a multitude of terrorist threats.