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August 5, 2025 71 mins

#184: What if everything you've been told about finding love is wrong? What if the secret to lasting relationships isn't chemistry or luck, but actually a mathematical formula that can predict compatibility with stunning accuracy?

In this mind-blowing conversation, relationship theorist and data analyst Zoey Charif reveals the science behind why we choose certain partners and why those relationships succeed or fail. Drawing from hundreds of relationship surveys and years of research, she breaks down her groundbreaking formula that shows the perfect relationship occurs when partners score approximately 4% higher than our self-worth. Any less creates a downward spiral where both partners stop putting in effort. And this can happen at any point, even after a relationship begins. 

The data reveals surprising truths that challenge everything we thought we knew about attraction. People with the highest self-scores were actually the ones who initiated breakups, refusing to settle for unfulfilling relationships. What appears as "avoidant attachment" might simply be a score mismatch where the person doesn't value you as highly as you value them. And that intense chemistry you feel for someone who keeps disappearing? It might be your extreme emotional personality type being drawn to traits over values.

Whether you're struggling with dating apps, recovering from heartbreak, or wondering why your relationship feels off-balance, this episode offers something rare: a clear, evidence-based approach to understanding love. Because while relationships may feel magical, the data suggests they follow patterns we can understand and use to find lasting happiness.

This episode tackles relationships from a refreshingly analytical perspective that might just change how you approach love. 

Find Zoey here:

https://www.instagram.com/zoeycharif/

https://www.tiktok.com/@zoeycharif


Purchase Zoey's book here:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/9695892035?ref=cm_sw_r_cso_wa_apin_dp_G0QWDRXZX7M2244DVQPF&ref_=cm_sw_r_cso_wa_apin_dp_G0QWDRXZX7M2244DVQPF&social_share=cm_sw_r_cso_wa_apin_dp_G0QWDRXZX7M2244DVQPF&starsLeft=1&skipTwisterOG=1&fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAac3kxqLmZ-38_3BUMmaLJ0hCtG8FGS5marLYf1bblNPMMFsLnSEJkRRyepR5Q_aem_rMf927m9iBGhQ7u9kdfOCw


https://www.lovecaninfactbecalculated.com/?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAaf_axPqpIqjaPzK5j1g6Xk0jygzXsP2v7dKk19Git4if_9SLLJ4z6eyXJf6mg_aem_PQfw_ZiT8P9bbNmSjKs4HQ

You can now send us a text to ask a question or review the show. We would love to hear from you!

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Johnna (00:00):
What is up everyone?
Welcome back to another episodeof the Babbles Nonsense podcast
.
We are continuing our topic onrelationships, but this time
it's a little different.
We have a guest, but you guysalready know I love to overthink
relationships like it's my fulltime job and, honestly, I've
done enough field research toqualify for a PhD in dating

(00:20):
disasters.
But today we're leveling up.
I'm not just bringing feelingsto the table, I'm bringing facts
, cold hard data.
My guest is Zoe Sharif.
Author of Love Can, in Fact, beCalculated relationship theorist
, data analyst and low-key lovescientist with a background in
criminology, meaning she canliterally analyze your

(00:42):
attachment style and tell you ifit's a crime.
If anyone can decode why wechase walking red flags like
it's cardio, it's Zoe.
We're talking compatibilitypatterns and how love is way
less random than we think.
So if you've ever said, but wehad chemistry right before the
emotional train wreck, thisepisode's for you.
Let's get into it with ZoeSharif.

(01:29):
All right, guys, welcome back toanother episode of the Babbles
Nonsense podcast.
I have Zoe Sharif here.
She has a background incriminology.
She's a relationship theorist,a data analyst and author of
Love Can, in fact, be Calculated, and I'm super excited to have
her here today because y'allhave listened to a bunch of our
podcasts lately, especially meand me and you, where we are

(01:51):
talking about relationships andy'all know that's kind of what
I'm going through in my personallife and dating in 2025 is just
not the vibe.
I don't know about y'all, butit's just not so.
Welcome Zoe to the show.

Zoey (02:03):
Thank you so much for having me Very excited to be
here.

Johnna (02:06):
I am so excited.
First of all, I have to knowhow you went from criminology
background and if you're stilldoing that to trying to study
relationships, because how doescriminology and love go hand in
hand?
Now, I know my people out therewho love true crime would say,
oh, they for sure go hand inhand, right.
But like, how did you go fromcriminology to, like, studying

(02:27):
relationships?

Zoey (02:29):
Yeah, isn't it interesting .
So when I studied criminology,I had a very laser focus on
human behavior.
I just wanted to understandcriminality.
And when I was 20, I wascheated on and I was, I think,
in my third year in school.
So all of a sudden my laserfocus went from crime and trying
to understand criminality totrying to understand love.

(02:50):
So it was essentially the humanbehavior and the drives and
desires that I was more tryingto understand.
And that's essentially how Iwent in the rabbit hole of love
and attachment theory andbehaviors.
And you know how we are allwired a certain way, how it
plays into our neurochemicals,and I just so happened to

(03:13):
stumble upon a sentence thatsaid you can't fall in love with
someone unless they're a match.
And I elaborated on that tocalculate a match, on that, to
calculate a match.
And eventually, years later, Ivalidated my theory through data
analytics.
And now it's a thing I'm likeokay, cool, Like this actually
works.
The data is showing that youcan calculate love.

Johnna (03:36):
And that is so crazy to me because obviously that's a
bold statement to say we cancalculate love, because
sometimes we can't even explainlove ourselves or like are we
actually in love with thisperson?
So how can we calculate love?
Because sometimes we can't evenexplain love ourselves, or like
are we actually in love withthis person?
So how can we calculate love?
Like the first thing that comesto my mind.
I'm in a book club and we readthis book and I wish is it
called the Perfect Match?
I think it is.
It's a show on Netflix.

(03:58):
It's a crazy book.
I don't want to give the endingaway, but I was like like this,
the scientist was saying thatyou could have a perfect match
based on DNA, and like she wasmatching all these people
together and it was just wild.
So that's the first thing thatcame to my mind.
When you're like data analyticscan calculate it.
So how can we calculate love?
Are you saying that we can havea perfect partner based on

(04:20):
certain data?

Zoey (04:23):
Yes, exactly.
So just to give a bit ofbackground in terms of how
humans are wired as humans, ourprimal instinct is to procreate
and our primal instinct is tocreate a strong offspring.
What that means is yourinherent drive is to connect
with someone who's either atyour level or better than you,

(04:45):
because there's something in thebackground in your reptilian
brain that says, if you are tomix your DNAs together, you want
the offspring to be the bestcase scenario.
Okay, so, with that said, weall evaluate.
That's why we all havechecklists I want this, I want
that, blah, blah, blah, right?
Well, again, the deeper layerthere is because of our

(05:06):
reptilian brain saying I wantthe strongest so that I have the
strongest offspring, regardlessif you want to have kids or not
.
It's just these drives that arerunning in the back of the mind
.
So, with all of that said, whenyou evaluate a match and
calculate a match evaluate amatch and calculate a match
that's essentially your body andyour mind saying this is who I

(05:35):
want to be with, I'm going totry to make it work and I'm
going to respect this person andI will put in my best.
So there are two things here.
In terms of how to calculate thematch.
First you have a self-score,and that's based on your
self-worth, and then you have apartner score, and the partner
score is based on how they showup against your standards and

(05:56):
their inherent traits, whichessentially just means
attraction, and then you averagethose two out.
If the self-score is a perfectmatch to the partner score, you
are likely going to engage in arelationship and make an effort
within that relationship.
The beauty, though, is we foundin the analytics that the

(06:17):
perfect match happens to be whenthe partner score has 4% above
yours, because then we'rereaching a realm of admiration.
So all the other groups thatwere broken up whether they did
the breaking up, they werebroken up with mutual breakup.
On and off relationship thepartner score was always lower,

(06:39):
always, always, there's only onegroup where the partner score
was higher, and that's the groupwhere they were currently
together still together.

Johnna (06:49):
So when you say that it has to be both ways, right.
So if I'm choosing a partner,their score needs to be four
points higher than mine, andvice versa, I would be four
points higher than theirs.

Zoey (06:58):
Exactly, exactly.
So everything is based onperception and everybody has
different values.
Your top five values may lookdifferent to your partner's top
five values.
The point here is for you torespect them right, so to score
them high against your standardsie your values but also that
they do the same right, Based ontheir values.

(07:20):
That is the perfectrelationship.
Okay, let's assume for a secondyou're scoring your partner 5%
less, 10% less, and again, thisis what we saw in the analytics.
It doesn't work, even at 5%less, unless you have mortgage
or kids or other ties outsidethan just wanting to be together
and the desire to be together.
Unless you have all that, youwill be unfulfilled.

(07:43):
And here's how we interpretthis data.
The way it's being interpretedis when they're scoring 5% less,
that means that you're notputting in your best foot
forward in the relationship.
You're not always super mindfulof your communication.
You're not always super mindfulof whether you're being
dependable or a rock, and theremay be signs of I don't know if

(08:08):
selfishness is the right word,but just you know doing things
the way you want to, because whywould you?
Why would you?
You don't admire, which is areally, you know, sucky way to
say it, but that's essentiallythe interpretation.
So what happens if you start toproject that into the
relationship?
Well, your partner is going tostart doing the same to you.
They're going to say, well, ifshe's not being my rock, why

(08:29):
would my communication be great?
Or, you know, if she's notputting in her efforts towards,
let's say, family, right, ifthat's one of his or her values,
right, why would I do this forher type thing?
So then two people areprojecting their crap, right.
Two people are projecting theirlack of fulfillment and they're

(08:50):
both getting lazy against eachother's standards.
And that's where we fall in therealm of on and off
relationships where the partnerscore is minus 5%, and a mutual
breakup where the partner scoreis minus 10%.
So even if you have a slightminus, sadly there will be
moments where you're projectingthat into the relationship.

Johnna (09:12):
The partner is likely to project it back, and then
you're going to start to see thedissipation of like respect
because, like and I've alwayssaid this, and I've heard other
people say this and I don't knowif you saw this in your
research, they were I've heard alot of times that the man
actually has to be more obsessedwith the woman than the woman

(09:32):
being obsessed with the man,because then it's an imbalance
or something like that.
And we talk about you.
You used admiration and respectthat I've really liked someone
and it takes me a lot to likesomeone.
I do have that respect for them.
I've noticed like little thingsthat they do that other people,
if I'm dating, would do, wouldannoy the crap out of me.
They're doing the same thingand I'm like, oh how cute, you

(09:52):
know.

Zoey (09:54):
I totally get it.
Yeah, well, here's the thing.
I know that saying, and I knowthat John Gottman, who's like a
very big relationship theorist,said that the best relationships
is when the woman has influenceover the man, which is another
way to say her score is higherthan his score and there's
admiration there.
But our analytics show thatit's actually both ways.

(10:17):
It's both ways.
The best relationship is whenthe woman admires the man.
Also, here's what I think we'refalling into in this generation
, this era.
I think that the pool is notgreat, I think the pool of
reliability is not great and Ithink that with us women, we

(10:39):
tend to be so emotional and welove romance, we love just
getting swept off our feet.
But sadly, sometimes that canbe love bombing and it could be
done by someone who's veryperformative and not consistent.
So when you go through enoughof these relationships where you
put in your all, you put inyour heart and then you got

(11:01):
super hurt, well, maybe yourbrain is going to go.
I want something safe.
So, exactly to your point, it'sbetter for the man to be
obsessed.
Yeah, maybe it's because thewoman wants to feel like she's
got some control, she doesn'twant to get hurt, or she's been
through enough experiences wherewhen the admiration was there

(11:22):
from her to him were when theadmiration was there from her to
him, like she had her heartbroken.
So that's my interpretation ofthat because, for sure, the
analytics are showing that itshould be both ways.
But I also know that a lot ofwomen seek safety, and I think
it's literally because of ourpool right now of daters both
sides right, both men and women,but also I think that women

(11:45):
have have been very hurt in thispool.
I agree.

Johnna (11:49):
Now, when did you do your data?
Because I know you mentioned,like to me, like in private
conversation, that you've beendoing this for like two decades.
So how long did it take you tocollect all that data with your
like research, to figure outlike the four points?

Zoey (12:03):
Yeah Well, the theory actually started about two
decades ago, but I gave it asolid push back in 2020.
2020 is when I took dataanalytics and we had a group
project at the end of theprogram, so I invited five other
people to research this with me.
So the initial phase was 80surveys and once I again really

(12:27):
delved deep into writing thebook and everything.
I'm like, okay, the 80 surveysis not enough.
So then I purchased moresurveys through a company and
also I needed to make thedistribution more aligned.
So I had more of one age groupthan another group.
I think I had more women thanmen, right?
So essentially, I gathered moredata to make sure that I had

(12:49):
more of one age group thananother group.
I think I had more women thanmen, right?
So essentially, I gathered moredata to make sure that I had an
equal distribution so that Icould say, hey, here's what we
behind this and, in my strongopinion, there is.
I would so encourage for aschool or a graduate program to
pick this up and to really lookinto it and look at the

(13:11):
different personality types thatI identified and you know the
score and everything and alsohow men relate to women and um
and vice versa, of course, right, um and yeah, and just delve,
delve a bit deeper.

Johnna (13:25):
No, I love that and I love it Like, have you thought
about, like I know, in 2020, itwas still kind of the era of
dating apps and social media,but it was also COVID.
So there was a lot ofrelationships breaking up
because there was a lot morepeople at home stuck with each
other realizing like oh, maybewe don't like each other,
because when you go about yourday to day norm, like like
passing and by like sure, youcan get away with like for years

(13:46):
just being like hi, bye, seeyou later, kids.
And then cause I'm single and Italk to a lot of my friends
that are married and they'llkind of talk to me about their
relationship status and I'm notby any means a relationship
coach, theorist, anything butlike just listening to them.
I'm like are you happy?
I'm like, are you happy?

(14:20):
Because it doesn't sound likeyou are.
It sounds like you're just thedating apps, the hookup culture
it may be different, or would itcome out the same.

Zoey (14:32):
I believe it would come out the same.
Here's why the 80 surveys thatwe got that was during COVID,
but then the following 200, 300surveys that we got, that was in
2024.
And both samples revealed thesame thing that the one group of
people who are currentlytogether were admiring their
partner.
But I do very briefly want totouch on what you said about you

(14:57):
.
Look unhappy, right, girl, toyour point, right.
Like no one wants to feel likethey're leaving something that's
predictable maybe unfulfilling,but at least it's predictable.
Right, the double you know typething, right, and then go back
into the world, right.
Here's the thing, though thisis also an excellent tool to

(15:18):
realize whether you're beinganchored and whether you're
selling yourself short.
So, because this tool not onlywill evaluate your self-score,
it'll evaluate the partner'sscore.
If you're afraid that you'rejust being a little moody, that
you're just being a little harshat the time, that you're not
seeing things clearly and youshould stay in your marriage or
stay in your relationship orwhatever, I totally hear that

(15:41):
right, Because you know likeyour mind will play tricks on
you and say hold on, what if Ican't make it work by myself.
What if this?
Right, if you're doing thissurvey over and over again and
let's say a span of like sixmonths, and you have a strong
self-score, because that is thetelling, the tell of whether you
are healthy and whether you'reapproaching things in a healthy
way and with a healthy mind.

(16:02):
So if you have a strongself-score but your partner is
consistently scoring low and youare communicating it and
partner is not doing anythingabout it, and you are literally
anchored and you're feeling likeyou're the only one making an
effort to make it work, therehas to come a time where your
self-worth should be strongerthan what you think society

(16:26):
needs from you.
And I want to say one morething.
We identified the averageself-score of people who were
currently together to be a 76%.
There was one group above themfor a self-score at 78%.
This group did the breaking up.
So what that means is that thesurvey taker, they decided I

(16:49):
don't want to be with thisperson anymore and they had a
stronger self-score than thegroup of people who are
currently together.
Okay, here's what I'm trying tosay here Not all is lost.
If you are truly in your heart,feeling like you are
unfulfilled, don't worry, don'tworry, don't get anchored down.

(17:10):
The group that did the breakingup showed a stronger self worth
and higher self score.
That means that they are morefulfilled within themselves and
they are willing to wait untilsomeone will match them.
That's what this seems to say,right?
So, yeah, sorry, I said itwould be brief, but turned out
not to be no, that's fine.

Johnna (17:31):
I love the way you explain that, because it kind of
goes along a lot with what meand Meenu have talked about in
past podcasts.
But you're kind of breaking itdown to where it kind of makes
more sense analytically, whichis how my brain kind of works,
sometimes, like I'm not, I don'toperate in the opposite side
Well, both, I guess.
But if someone has a lowself-worth and let's say, or

(17:55):
they're dating an avoidant, howdoes that change?
Then the score, like obviouslythey're going to score against
each other, and then it's not,they're not going to be a match.
But could that change later?
You know how they say wrongperson or wrong time, right
person.
Like, let's say, the avoidantgoes and does work on himself
and he stops running and thenyou go and work on yourself and
you get your self-esteem up.

(18:15):
Could then the match becomeperfect, or is it still no?

Zoey (18:21):
Yeah, it's possible.
Here's my opinion withavoidance.
I think sometimes we mislabelthe situation.
So an avoidant is someone whofeels something but then still
feels like they need to take astep back for self-protection.
But sometimes it's because I'mgoing to be straight Sometimes

(18:43):
they're just scoring you lessand sometimes they just don't
feel like they should put in theeffort because they're not
fulfilled.
So that's where you see the hotand cold.
That's not to dismiss that.
Avoidant personality type is athing, or it is an attachment
style.
That's not to dismiss that.
But you can see someone who'ssecure still looking like an

(19:04):
attachment style.
That's not to dismiss that.
But you can see someone who'ssecure still looking like an
avoidant.
And even worse is when youlabel them as a narcissist,
right?
I think that that word has beenthrown out a little too much
because the empathy is not thereand blah, blah, blah, right.
I think what's actuallyhappening is it's a score
mismatch.
So when there's a scoremismatch, this person will

(19:24):
naturally not have empathy.
Naturally they'll think I kindof don't need this person, right
?
That?

Johnna (19:31):
makes sense, that makes total sense.
I said earlier when I datedpeople, they'll do something.
That's kind of annoying andyou're just like, oh, like gross
.
And then the person will do theexact same thing and you're
like, how cute, how cute.

Zoey (19:44):
Yeah, exactly.
So I do believe that, if okay,the person truly is an avoidant,
right?
So what that means is they havefeelings and then, for the sake
of self-preservation, they pullback right, that's got to be a
them thing, like no one can fixthat, no matter how much you
work on your score.

(20:05):
If something within themactivates right and avoidant,
like attachment style, when theyget feelings, that that's a
them problem, that's not a youproblem, right, and the whole
point is to connect with someonewho has a secure attachment
style.
But again, going back to, Iwould just be very mindful to

(20:26):
label someone an avoidant,because sometimes it's literally
just like they think they cando better.
It's so tough to hear that, butit's just like we need to be
real.

Johnna (20:36):
Oh, no for sure, and I think it's hard anyways to
figure out an avoidant patternbecause, like you said,
avoidants truly do feelsomething and they step, step
back and then they come back.
But it also looks like theperson who actually is a
manipulative behavior, wherethey come in and out and they're
hot and cold but they don'treally respect you.
And so that's where in in myI've been in both relationships

(20:59):
and it's kind of like, how doyou discern the two?
Because it's almost hard totell if you're being manipulated
or if they truly do care.
You know, like how do youdiscern the two?

Zoey (21:10):
I know right, it's very okay.
I mean, not that I'mencouraging this, but you can
always try to identify how youscore in their eyes.
Okay, I'm not encouraging it.
First and foremost, work onyour self-score.
But if you're truly wonderinghey, am I just getting like
screwed here, or is this personscrewy?

(21:31):
right Like it's such a bad word,I'm so sorry.
No, I love it.
Or are they a little you knowlike?
Do they have like a certainattachment style?
Okay, you can add, beyondknowing them as a person, you
can ask them like how do youdefine sophisticated, For
example?
Right, Essentially, you want toidentify what their top values

(21:51):
are.
How are they spending theirday-to-day?
Are they at work all the time?
Are they with family all thetime?
Do they take good care of theirmoney, their image, their
fashion, their purpose, theirwhatever?
Right, you should be able toidentify top five or even top 10
values.
Okay, God, I hate that I'm evensaying this, but if you want to

(22:11):
know, if you want to know, askyourself how you think that
they're scoring you for each one.
Okay, Even better, you couldstraight up do the survey with
them.
I did it with my husband whenwe were six months in and then
again when we were one year in.
Okay, so if you're feeling openenough and vulnerable enough to
do the survey with them, do it.

(22:32):
But if you don't feel that,then try to identify their top
10 and score yourself againsteach one.
Now ask yourself how do youthink they're scoring themselves
against each one, Because it'snot just a partner score, it's
also the self-score, right.
So if, for example, they'rekilling it at work, they have a
really strong social group,they're loving life and whatever

(22:53):
right, this is likely someonewho has a strong self-score.
This is probably someone whorespects themselves a lot, right
?
Or maybe other, whatever othertypes of values, right, or maybe
other whatever other types ofvalues, right.
So ask yourself, what is theirself score?
Ask yourself, how are theyscoring me?
That should give you anindication on whether they're

(23:15):
being hot and cold because theycan do better, they think they
can do better, or that they'rejust an avoidant that they're
just an avoidant.

Johnna (23:28):
Okay, that makes sense.
That makes a lot of sense.
Because it's still so hard todo that?
Because I'm thinking of aperson in particular that I'm
like if I was trying to do hisself-score in my mind.
I feel like he has everythinggoing on because I respect and
admire him, but then I alsothink that he doesn't have that
same respect and admiration forhimself.
So I don't know if he wouldgive himself the same score that
I would give him, but then Ialso think that he doesn't have
that same respect and admirationfor himself.
So I don't know if he wouldgive himself the same score that
I would give him.

Zoey (23:49):
Yeah, and you're probably right, it's very difficult to
determine, right?
I will say, if, in my, fromwhat I've seen, the ones who are
in a hot, hot back and forthrelationship are the ones who
score high for traits, ieattraction low for values, and
that's what's causing this backand forth, it's essentially the

(24:12):
person is magnetized like, oh myGod, you're so hot, you're so
sexy.
I love our conversations and Ifeel the chemistry and
everything.
But then, once things get real,and then you're evaluating your
day-to-day, you're evaluatinghow you fit within their life,
right?
Or maybe they're so independentright now and they went through
a bad breakup and they justreally crave their independence.

(24:34):
That could be a value of theirstoo, for example, right?
I think that that's what mightbe happening, might be, in the
on and off relationships.

Johnna (24:45):
That makes sense.
Now, you just mentioned youwere married, so how long have
you been married?
Two years, two years, so youhad been doing this data before.

Zoey (24:58):
Do you think it helped you or shaped the way you approach
love?
Oh girl, I used this survey toget over our relationship.
Right before Kevin, I washeartbroken and I'm like, okay,
let me apply my own theory.
This was back in 2021.
And I did, and I realized thatI had given him a score way up
here.
So I was A really hard on myselffor my own self-score.

(25:19):
B.
I'm like why the fuck am Igiving him such a high score for
dependability?
This guy sucks.
So I put things intoperspective.
I'm like why the fuck am Igiving him such a high score for
dependability?
This guy sucks.
So I put things intoperspective.
I'm like, no, is that we?
We are not doing this.
So eventually, as I like,rewrote the scores and I
journaled it right Week afterweek, after I think it was month
two, the scores rebalanced.
So, of course, this is like aprocess, right, like you're

(25:41):
still heartbroken, you're stilllike what just happened, right,
this is like a process, right,like you're still heartbroken,
You're still like what justhappened, right.
So it's not like instant, butit gives you such a solid like
tool for self-awareness to pullyourself out of thinking that
you need someone or thinkingthat you know like you'll never
find anyone better.
God no, and sold.
I'm buying the book tomorrow.

(26:03):
Wow, you're so sweet, yeah, buthere's the're.

Johnna (26:04):
So sweet, yeah, but here's the beauty of it.

Zoey (26:06):
So here's the beauty of it .
Okay, as I'm getting over thatthat crap, um, I meet someone at
the dog park, really, yeah.
So our dogs met first and kevinstarted chatting with me and
I'm chatting back not a big deal, right?
Right, it's probably actually.
No, the first time was probablyan hour chat.

(26:27):
And then the second day wefound each other at the same
time.
Right, his story is that I wasstalking him, but the truth is
he was looking for me.
Okay, that's the truth, anyway.
So here's the thing Like he wasnot my type, so I did the
formula.
The formula showed a match.
So I'm like, okay, hold on, sowe just wait.

(26:47):
Just wait, even if he's notyour type, even if you're not
laughing and you're notmesmerized, and whatever, just
wait.
Right, because I knew I had acertain pattern and I was trying
to kill that pattern.
So I think, after like a monthor two months, like we started
laughing together, cracking uptogether I got to see his deeper
layers that were not superobvious the first month, right,

(27:08):
because people tend to bereserved.
But no, the fact that I A didthe calculation, because the
calculation was a match, I toldmyself hold on, let's see, and
then the chemistry built.
So, yeah, like, and then, ofcourse, the rest is history.
Right, we got engaged, gotmarried, and now, two years in,

(27:29):
I do also want to say scoresfluctuate.
So when we were dating for sixmonths, I asked him to do the
formula with me and he scored 4%higher than me or 5% higher
than me, right, which was great,because he loved hearing that.
I guess he didn't realize.
I admired him and also it waskind of cool to see where his

(27:51):
insecurities were, where myinsecurities were.
It just really opened ourunderstanding.
So, fast forward one year intoour relationship and we're not
getting along, right, we arecompletely misaligned.
We are speaking differentlanguages.
I was unhappy, he was unhappy,and it's honestly very common in
marriages and I can see whymarriages are so hard.

(28:13):
Right, it's basically you'vegot two people, their own
upbringing, their own mindsets,their own cultures, right, and
yeah, the values are matched,the traits are matched, but
eventually you're going to startto see those deeper layers too
of how people handle stress, howthey communicate when they're
really pissed off, right, andeventually you might start to

(28:34):
see certain clashes.
And it's so hard to reset whenyou live together because you're
not really giving each otherspace to miss each other, right?
So, anyways, we got to a pointwhere it became difficult.
So I sat him down.
I'm like we're doing theformula together, and here's
what happened.
So, um, I was scoring less inhis eyes for communication and

(28:57):
manners.
He was scoring less in my eyesfor dependability and
reliability.
So I that one thing that justcompletely drew me to him was
that he was my rock.
He was a rock, but over time hestopped being that rock, right,
for various reasons, whetherit's not being self-aware, or
because my communication stylewas not great and I kind of had

(29:20):
lost my softness, right, and myadmiration for him.
All to say, earlier, when I saidthat two people are projecting
their stuff, that's whathappened.
He started scoring less in myeyes, I started scoring less in
his eyes, and we're bothprojecting that lack of
fulfillment into therelationship.
And now we're just jerks, andnow neither of us are putting

(29:40):
our best foot forward.
We're both annoyed, right, andyeah, we're just like God, like
you know.
So, with that said, the formulaput us back into a place of
alignment, because that's wherewe realize, hey, like we're
slipping.
We're married, we don't want toleave each other.
We need to work on it Right,and that's where I knew exactly
what I needed to work on, sothat he could project that back

(30:03):
for me and be my rock again.

Johnna (30:06):
No, I love that because it's almost like you can use the
tools in so many different ways, like to find your match, but
then to also kind of identifywhat you're lacking in the
relationship, because I'vealways said what you just said,
which is crazy, because Ihaven't ever found anyone that
kind of like agrees with me whenI'm like, when and I understand
like marriage.
Everyone, I think, agrees thatmarriage is not easy, a

(30:29):
relationship in itself.
You don't even have to bemarried.
It's not easy because you arebringing two different
personalities together andtrying to combine them for this
long haul.
And then you know there'stheories out there and I don't
know how far you got into yourtheories or what like obviously
you're married and you believein marriage, but like there are
people that you know, I podcastand talk with, people that are
like well, humans aren't meantto be monogamous and they're not
meant to be with these peoplethis long.
And the reason why, you know,people were together so long ago

(30:51):
, for so long, is because Awomen didn't have the right to
divorce their husband until the50s B because people died when
they were like 30 years old.
So they were together like 10years and then they died.
So now we're living until we'relike 100, 110 years old.
So it's like, were humans evenmeant to do that?
But I mean, I do believe thatthere is a person out there, but

(31:12):
it takes work and I think theproblem, like we mentioned, in
this culture that we have todayis I personally feel there's I
have no research on this thatit's just easy to leave and find
someone else because of theaccess the social media, the
dating apps.
There's just so much accessthat you don't have to put in
the work and the effort becauseit's hard.

Zoey (31:33):
Yeah, yeah, and you're on point.
So exactly.
A our lifespans are so muchlonger.
B now women have a lot morefreedom to say I'm not putting
up with this, right, and we havehigher standards, and now we
are protected, like the laws doprotect women, especially if
we're having children, right.
So I agree with you it's a verystrange time for marriage.

(31:57):
In fact, I think that came outthat by 2030, 45% of women aged
between 25 and 45 would not havechildren or that they would be
childless, right, whether theychoose to, eventually.
So, if you think about it,marriage is great if you're
having a child, if you want amortgage, dual income, but if

(32:20):
you don't want any of thoseright, or if you can, you know,
if you feel like you can handlelifestyle by yourself
financially, like like, what'sthe point?
No, yeah, I can see why peopleare choosing to A not have

(32:45):
children and not get into amortgage together and just be
solo and still engage inlong-term relationships but not
have all these like things whereit's like so difficult to leave
.
And I think, especially forwomen, though, like, especially
for women, you know what I mean.
I empathize clearly for bothgenders, but I'm a woman, right,

(33:07):
so when a woman gives, notgives up, her career, but, you
know, slows down her career forthe sake of the family.
And then you know her body,she's sacrificing her body to
have a child, right, it's kindof an unfair advantage that men
have.
Yeah, and the law sees that,which I'm really glad to see

(33:29):
Right.
But yeah, all to say like, yeah, I, I, I understand why women
are taking a step back fromthese like social constructs.
It's because it's not to ouradvantage, because it's not to
our advantage.

Johnna (33:43):
Well and like, just as the laws and I think that we all
quickly forget the laws arethey're just recently changed,
because I'm reading a bookcalled the Small but Mighty Now,
and it talks about people inhistory that didn't make the
history books.
But there was this lady inIdaho that lost everything
because her husband died, andthis was like 1910.
So if we're, I mean that wasjust not, I mean not too long

(34:06):
ago.
So she lost everything, herhusband died and then everything
they owned together becausethey were married, belonged to
the state, and the state kickedher out of her house and she was
homeless oh my god, like theythey even, I want to say they
even took her children and likethey um, she only had one that
was like 18 that went with herand she had to move and start
all over.
So we forget how quickly, likeor how not long ago, things

(34:29):
weren't that different,especially like when it came to
divorce.
Like because in this book ittalks about divorce, like that
was not a thing, like only mencould request a divorce, yeah,
and so, like I think we quicklyforget that.
But like I mean, you sent methis little meme on TikTok and
it was funny.
It was like this lady walkingaround with the AI companion and
basically she was telling himlike OK, you're getting on my

(34:51):
nerves, can you please use JasonSamoa voice for the next five
years or something.
And like he basically waswhoever she wanted to be.
And so I completely understandthat Like and I'll be honest,
like I don't even try to datebecause it's almost like the
past three or four people thatI've dated it's been the same
thing and I don't know it couldbe something I'm doing and I

(35:11):
mean I'm happy to use this as anexample for the podcast, but it
seems almost like that I'mpicking the same men who seem to
really really like me in thebeginning, and maybe it is love
bombing and I'm not recognizingit.
Maybe it is love bombing andI'm not recognizing it.
Or maybe it's that I've wantedthat so bad that I'm accepting
less than and thinking it's morethan what it is.
But then it's like we get twoor three months in I finally let
my guard down and it's like, oh, no, no, no, I didn't want a

(35:34):
relationship.
What made you think that?
And you're like I don't know thecalls the text every day You're
hanging out with me once, twice, three times a week, taking me
on dates, going in public, Idon't know.
It seemed like you wanted arelationship.
So it's like, almost at thispoint, it's like I'm not even
willing to put myself out thereto do it again, because maybe I
am doing something, because Iknow, min, you mentioned mirror

(35:56):
neurons and you had mentionedthat you've heard about the
mirror neurons too, where we'rereflecting back on ourselves.
So maybe I'm the emotionallyavoidant one and I don't realize
it.
I don't know.

Zoey (36:08):
I don't believe that you're emotionally avoidant.
I believe that people are veryirresponsible and I think that,
from what it sounds, there's anunderlying personality trait
there, that like to me traitthere.
To me, narcissism is a verystrong word, I don't like using
that word Selfish, let's sayselfish.

(36:36):
To me, what they've done isextremely selfish.
And then to twist the narrativewhere it's like well, why would
you assume that blah, blah,blah.
It's like, why do you thinkYou've been giving me all the
signs, god forbid, three monthsin, I'm doing a little check-in
about whether you want acommitment, god forbid, right.
And then they twist thenarrative like you're crazy,
this is the pool, this is ourpool.
Okay, you did something wrong,but what I will say is that

(37:00):
there's probably somethingunderlying there that your
subconscious is picking up on,that is being attracted.
So whether that's, I don't know, love bombers are interesting.
I would maybe just write out allthe similar patterns that you
identified in these last threeor four.
In the beginning, right, werethey extremely charismatic,

(37:23):
charming, were they like showingyou off?
And blah, blah, blah, right, um, were they trying to impress
you or I don't know you, youpick all those traits and maybe
you can, you might be identifyand be able to identify a
personality type where it's acharmer or someone who's wearing
a mask, because these masks,dude people are getting really

(37:47):
smart.
They are.
They are very manipulative.
They know what to say, theyknow what to do, they know how
to seem genuine and maybe tothem they are genuine, but then
three months in once shit getsreal and then they try to turn
it back on you like you're crazyfuck that right, because I had
one guy like a wee got in afight and then they try to turn
it back on you like you're crazy.

Johnna (38:04):
Fuck that right.
Because I had one guy like a.
We got in a fight and then, ofcourse, like continued dating
off and on for like two yearsand he, he was like like I think
maybe a year into it I was likeso you know what, what are we
doing?
And it was more like oh, I'veseen some things in you that you
know, I just didn't think werea good relationship match and
I'm like you couldn't have toldme that eight months ago.

(38:25):
You couldn't have told me that.
And what do you mean?
You've seen some things.
That's and that's where I saythat people are just so quick to
give up because it's like sure,I'm not saying I'm perfect by
any means.
No one is.
We all have our flaws that wehave to work on, but it's called
communication.
And communicate that to me andsay hey, when you did this, it
kind of made me feel this way,like you're either going to have

(38:46):
to work on it or I'm bouncing.

Zoey (38:49):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
I think that people areprojecting their own wounds.
So maybe something happenedwhen he was in high school and,
you know, a girl rejected himand then he saw that same trait
in you eight months ago and nowsomething in his brain is like
danger, danger, danger, right,and.
And communication is actuallyvery difficult because we don't

(39:10):
live in a community, or in aworld, rather, where
communication is encouraged.
You sound like you're weak Ifyou communicate.
God forbid, god forbid.
I asked three months in wherewe're at Right, it's like we
have to play this dance, right?
And then no one knows what thehell is happening.
You're kind of feeling thevibes and everyone's just

(39:30):
assuming right, the first fewmonths is happening, but let me
just go with it, right?
All to say, I don't and I'mgenuinely saying this, okay, I
don't believe you've doneanything wrong.
I think that you led with heartno-transcript, though to maybe

(40:08):
identify whether there'ssomething underlying there that
your subconscious is picking upon.
Yeah, um and yeah, just askyourself.
And, by the way, like when Imet kevin, he wasn't my type,
but to me that was reassuringthat maybe he's a good person.

Johnna (40:29):
Well, I was going to ask you about that Because there
are a lot of relationshiptherapists that say like stop
dating, quote, unquote your typeand try something outside of
your type, and most people thatI talked to that have like
loving wonderful relationships.
They do say that.
They say, well, he wasn't mytype, but that chemistry grew.
So it was like that slow burnversus that quick, hot and heavy
.
Do you find that?
Did you find that in your?
I don't know if that was partof your research, but did you

(40:50):
find that in your research, likechemistry versus compatibility
and the slow burn?

Zoey (40:55):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, but not in the sense that you're
saying it.
So I identified a personalitytype.
Okay, so the personality typeis the practical versus the
emotional.
The practical these are thepeople who are more looking at
values when they make decisionsin relationships right, and
whether they should move forwardand when they should connect.

(41:16):
And then there's the emotionaltype.
These ones look more at traits,right and attraction, and that
will drive their decisions onwhether they should connect.
So between these two, we've gothealthy and extreme.
So we have healthy, practicalpeople who are values leaning,
and extreme practical people whoare all the way just on values

(41:37):
and don't care for chemistry.
Then you've got the healthyemotional and the majority of
people, based on our analytics,actually fall in the healthy
emotional type and these arealso this is also the biggest
group of the people who arecurrently together, ok, healthy
emotional.
Then there's the extremeemotional.
I used to be an extremeemotional and I identified this

(41:58):
when I did like my ownquestionnaire, to be honest, and
I'm like, okay, well, you know.
So I think, because I wasfalling in the extreme emotional
bucket.
That's why, like, the love bombfelt so good and it felt so
aligned.
It's because I was extremelytraits focused and not values
focused.

(42:18):
I'm telling you, if I had paidattention to values back in 2001
when that heartbreak happenedwith the other guy, I wouldn't
even have entered thatrelationship in the first place,
because the values were clearlynot a match.
There was no way there was goingto be lifestyle compatibility
with this person.
But I didn't care.

(42:39):
I didn't care and also like forthe values, I also gave him top
scores where he didn't deservethem right.
So there was an extreme lack ofself-awareness in that and it
all played out.
And then I saw it within thecalculations so as an extreme
emotional.
Yeah, that's where I identifiedthere was a serious problem

(43:02):
here.
With Kevin I became a healthy,practical, so I stopped putting
so much emphasis on the emotionsand I'm like hold on, the
values make sense.
The trait score is not totallythere yet, but the values are a
match.
Let me just wait.
And as I waited, his traitscore started bumping up because

(43:26):
I started laughing with him.
That laughter grew myattraction to him, physically
right, and all of that.
And then I saw his nature, hismanly nature, his presence.
So all these little things tooktime to come out.
They were an instant right.
So I don't know if that answersyour question.
Yeah, yeah.

Johnna (43:47):
No, it does.
How would you say like so, likelet's say I do meet someone
tomorrow for heaven bid and I'mlike, okay, I'm going to do this
trait score, but you don'treally know their values yet.
How do you do it in that earlydating stage If you don't really
know?
Know them yet because, like yousaid, some people are reserved.
Like how did you do that withKevin when you said he was a
little reserved at first?

Zoey (44:12):
How do you predict their values?
Yeah, I mean, I didn't predicthis values, but I checked to see
how he fit within my values.
So within my values it was agood match within the traits.
Remember how I said he's not?
Yeah, it's because he didn'ttotally fit.
But the longer I stayed, themore I became open-minded.
So I'll give you an example.
Okay, I used to date men of myculture.

(44:34):
I used to date only older.
I was not attracted to younger.
Kevin is both white, caucasianand younger by two years.
Okay, but everything else wasfine.
So I told myself so we justchill, you never, you just chill
, right.
These are not like destructivetraits, it's just maybe not what
you're used to, but you know so.

(44:55):
And that's what happened.
Like, eventually, I realizedage is no longer a trait
preference of mine because Kevinwas mature, yeah, of mine
because Kevin was mature, yeah,right.
So I switched it to that, alsocultural.
Like I grew up in Canada, Ilive in the U S.
look, I don't need to like be sonarrow but yeah, but eventually

(45:15):
I start to open my mind and Istart to realize those tree
preferences that I had, um, theyweren't necessarily conducive
to healthy relationships.
So I opened my mind, all to sayif you meet someone and value
that's why I called myself ahealthy, practical, it's because
I allowed myself to review thevalues before the traits right,

(45:37):
and the traits eventually grew.
So I think now I'm probablysomewhere like right in the
middle, but also like that'swhat allowed me to be in an
emotionally safe relationship.
It's because those extremeemotions weren't activated,
which is a good thing.
That means stability, thatmeans centeredness, that means

(45:59):
smart decisions, not emotionaldecisions.
That means that I can come intowork completely focus on work
and not have my mind loop abouta relationship or whether
someone is texting me back ornot.
Right.
So to me that worked.
But also we're seeing it in theanalytics that it generally
does work right.
So again, the group with thelongstanding relationships were

(46:22):
the healthy emotionals.
Right, extreme emotionals right, extreme emotionals.
Forget about that.
Yeah, like they weren't able tohold on to a relationship in
the same way.
So for you sorry to back up abit I would say if you meet
someone and you find that youcan inherently tell that they're
a good person and they havethose elements of a rock and
they're not desperately tryingto convince you how amazing they

(46:42):
are.
They're a good person and theyhave those elements of a rock
and they're not desperatelytrying to convince you how
amazing they are.
They're not desperately tryingto make you love them and desire
them and whatever, right, andthere may not be necessarily a
spark, but there's likesomething there, right, and
they're a good score.
My, my suggestion is to justwait.

(47:05):
So if he is inviting you ondates, right, I'm not saying go
on like extreme dates, right,but like even a walk, even like
a hike, even like a coffee,right, and just see if something
grows from there.
For me it was probably about amonth in where I'm like okay,
like now, like that desire isthere, right.

(47:26):
And it was between one and twomonths where, like, the cracking
up really started like laughter, a lot of laughter, and trust
and all of that, right.
So that's what worked for me.

Johnna (47:39):
Well, and that makes sense, because I did date a guy
recently that like it was likethat when I first like obviously
I was attracted to him somewhator I wouldn't have went, but
like it was a very slow, like Idon't know if we have much in
common, like we don't.
You don't really talk a lotLike.
I like someone who really talksa lot, but I think that's just
from patterns, that, like theguys that I've dated before,

(48:00):
it's like talk, talk, talk, talk, talk and then they ghost, and
so he wasn't doing that and like.
But still like when we hung outin person there was a lot of
attention, there was a lot oflaughing and like it did it.
I was like, okay, maybe this iswhat a secure man feels like,
because it's different than whatI've been before.
But unfortunately he justturned out he didn't want a
relationship either.

(48:20):
So I don't know, he just turnedout he didn't want a
relationship either.
So I don't know.

Zoey (48:22):
Yeah, and you know that happens, that happens, it's okay
.
I'm telling you, it's A, thepool.
B, the access to all the peopleout there, right, all the
options.
And now I believe that we areso hell-bent on our independence
and not wanting to compromise,right, right, and maybe an

(48:46):
exercise would be helpful.
So when I went through my thingback in 2021, I recognized that
my self-score was low and Ieventually recognized that I
unknowingly was projecting thatinto the relationship, whether
it was my body language or beinga self-sacrificer or being
infatuated and all of that.

(49:11):
So I would suggest looking atyour self-score.
The average self-score forwomen is 76%.
Also, the ones who tend to bein a longstanding relationship
is 76%.
Evaluate yourself.
If you're below, let's say, 73or 70%, you may unknowingly be

(49:37):
projecting infatuation into therelationship or self-sacrificing
, and that does not work inrelationships.
Right, because they want to seean equal, they want to see
someone slightly above them,right?
And if you self-sacrifice, ifyou're infatuated, you're
subconsciously sending thesignal, or energetically sending
the signal of you are betterthan me, and that should not

(49:59):
happen.
You have to feel strong, solidin who you are and in your
self-worth.
So evaluate that.
If you feel like the self-scoreis low.
Work on that.
A ask yourself if you're beinghard on yourself.
B if there are things that youfeel you could be better at.
There are ways to enhance yourself-score, like.
One of the examples I give inthe book actually is education.

(50:20):
Education does not mean abachelor's or a master's, or you
can get educated through apodcast, through reading right?
So there are so many differentways.
So there are so many differentways.
So there are tools that you canapply to bump your self-score.
Same thing with healthconsciousness.
Health consciousness doesn'thave to mean going to the gym
five days a week.
It can mean breathing exercises, it could be eating well,

(50:42):
taking your daily vitamins right?
There are so many things youcan do to enhance your
self-score based on your values.
Right?

Johnna (50:50):
so that that's what I would suggest.
Oh, I think that's likedefinitely self-sacrifice for
sure, like I, I would like, if Iwanted to do, like do something
, and for sure would be like,okay, it's fine, it's fine, it's
fine okay, yeah until I got mad, and then, when I would get mad
, I I would speak my truth, andthen it was almost like they
were very attracted to that.

(51:10):
Yeah, yeah, I'd be like whatare you?
I'd be like what are you eventalking about?

Zoey (51:17):
Yeah, yeah, exactly so I.
Inherently, we are attracted tostrength because inherently,
our drive is to create a strongoffspring.
So you, to admire the person,you need to see their strength
right.
I completely get theself-sacrificing, by the way,
okay, like I'm Afghan baby ofthe family, we are literally

(51:37):
wired to do this right.
Plus, with the dating pool andme being an extreme emotional
and all of that, yeah, I fellinto those patterns very easily.
Here's the thing the analyticswere showing that is not likely
conducive to a healthyrelationship or to a
longstanding relationship.
So, work on your self score andonce you do, trust me,

(51:58):
inherently you'll be able to gointo these conversations and
body language.
Just, you know a little bit.
You know like propped up, right, yeah, you know a little bit.
You know like propped up, right, yeah, and it'll show in that,
it'll show in your speech, inyour voice, in your charm and
all of that.
And that's what's magnetic.
I love that.

Johnna (52:19):
Yeah, I have a few more questions for you and then, if
you're up for it, I want to do arapid fire round.
It's something I've starteddoing on the podcast and like to
give you like quick off the topof your head, but I do have a
few more questions for you.
Okay, if love is a formula,what's the biggest variable?
People ignore.

Zoey (52:37):
Self score.
You can't love someone unlessyou love yourself.
The analytics showed that thegroups with the lowest self
score were either on and off,mutual breakup or they were
broken up with the group afterthat, 76% were currently in a
relationship.
The group after that 78%, theydid the breaking up.

(52:57):
All to say that cliche can'tlove someone unless you love
yourself is true.
You need a strong self-score toapproach relationships in a
healthy way.

Johnna (53:09):
That makes sense.
I mean, I've heard that and youhear it and it seems like such
simple advice.
But sometimes it's just harderto do that because and that's
why I have me and you on thepodcast a lot because it's like
we try to always do thisourselves and sometimes we do
need to reach out to experts inthe field to give us not just
advice but tools, like you'regiving people tools on how to
like figure out your self-scoreand figure out their self-score.

(53:31):
So sometimes I think we againwant to be strong and try not to
ask for help, but I think thatasking for help is strength.
So I agree with everything youjust said.
What is a love myth that drivesyou crazy and needs to go?
Okay?

Zoey (53:51):
crazy and needs to go.
Give me some examples of mythsand I'll tell you if I agree or
disagree.

Johnna (54:01):
Let's see, I'd have to think of some myself.
That's a love myth.
A love myth, I guess would belike, like you're destined to be
together, Twin flames,soulmates.

Zoey (54:16):
Oh, that's a great one Twin flames, soulmates, runner
chaser.
So I'm actually a veryspiritual person.
In fact, I use this formula tomanifest right, because when
you're specific with theuniverse, it's more likely to
respond.
Okay, here's the thing.
The runner chaser, we have to beso careful with that.

(54:39):
If someone is running, don'tromanticize that it's not your
angels tapping on you on yourshoulder and say, yeah, go for
it.
You know.
So if it's causing self-harm,be very careful that the things
you find online that arevalidating the runner chaser, I
just don't believe in that.
In fact, the analytics don'tsupport that.
You know what I mean.
I think that it's just somethingthat we've created, in my

(55:00):
opinion, to validate ourfeelings.
But your feelings are actuallyI'm so sorry, I'm going to say
it because I was there Okay, sothat's why I feel comfortable
your feelings are emotionaldysregulation.
You are falling in the extremeemotional bucket and now you
have to understand thesefeelings.
And there are things onlinethat say, hey, runner chaser,
and you're like, oh my God, thistotally resonates, right?

(55:21):
Also, the avoidant, it's like,oh my God, this totally
resonates.
It's just something within them.
Their feelings are so strongand that's why, no, sometimes
that like, you're just not agood fit for them, right, and
believe me, rejection, as theysay, is God's protection.
You can do better if they'regoing to project that crap onto
you and they're not going totreat you well.

(55:42):
So you know, like, go findsomeone who, who wants to be
your rock.

Johnna (55:47):
Right, I agree, I used to also be the runner chaser and
I'm trying so hard to get outof that mindset because I think
it was normalized in mychildhood to do that like chase
after my parents for love, andso that chaos to me
subconsciously is love, and so Ihave to try to rewire that out
of my brain to be like no,actually it's not you should.

(56:08):
You should feel safe.
You shouldn't feel like youcan't say what you need to say
or that you're going to scaresomeone off or all that.
So I 1000% what you just said.

Zoey (56:17):
Yeah, I mean that's such strong self-awareness, right,
because we learn how to lovethrough our parents and if we're
constantly seeking, needinglike we need to chase validation
, needing to chase love,essentially that becomes
normalized in our adulthood,right?
And so how do I put it?

(56:37):
It's very difficult to rewire.
Self-awareness is obviously thefirst step right.
Rewiring is a completelydifferent ballgame, and I'll
give you an example.
Can you control what you findfunny?

Johnna (56:53):
No.

Zoey (56:54):
Exactly so.
To that same extent, becauseit's so in you, to that same
extent can you necessarilycontrol who you find attractive,
what you find attractive.

Johnna (57:06):
No.

Zoey (57:07):
But what you can do is stop yourself from engaging in
something that could be a lotworse and could spiral right.
So, like wiring, yeah, that's adifferent ballgame.
Again, I'm not saying it'simpossible.
Healing, meditation, you know,connection with nature,
journaling, friendships, youknow, feeling strong self-worth.
That will, I think, naturallycause you to stop chasing.

(57:31):
But it all comes down toself-worth and self-validation
and self-trust.

Johnna (57:36):
But, like I said, sometimes it's just not easy and
I'm glad you said that, becauseme and a friend had a
disagreement not too long agobecause she was like, well,
because I, you know, I am awareof the trauma response now
through working with lifecoaching and energy healing and
stuff like that.
But I just became aware of itlike a year and a half ago and
I'm almost 38.
So I tried to explain to her.
I was like I'm not using mytrauma as an excuse, I'm just

(57:59):
saying it.
Yes, I'm aware of it, but it'snot as easy as just okay, the
lights on, let's stop, becauseit's still so deep within me to
do that that I'm like I can, I,it's almost like I can recognize
it after I've done it.
And then I'm like, no, I did itagain.

Zoey (58:18):
I totally get it.
I totally, totally get it, andthat's the thing like being able
to articulate the issue.
that's just the first step nextis like, okay, doing something
about it and sometimes, like Isaid, it's just so in us, right?
And, by the way, like us ashumans, we're essentially a
bucket of genes and personalitytypes from our parents and their

(58:41):
parents and grandparents andgreat grand, like, like.
Think about the generationaldump here when it comes to our
DNA, our trauma.
All I'm trying to say is it'snot necessarily easy.
We are very bound by our brains.
Our brains were developed aschildren and they were passed on

(59:02):
to us through generation upongeneration upon generation.
So self-awareness is one thing.
To be able to rewire is acompletely different ball game.
And unless there's daily, dailylike work towards this and, by
the way, I get it, so who's gotdaily time all the time, right?

(59:24):
And and we're also talkingabout try to rewire what you
find funny, right, try to rewirethat Right, and tell your
friend that too.
Just say, can you help what youfind funny?
If she says, no, it's like,same thing, right, same thing.
Sometimes you can't help whatyou find attractive, but again
it goes back to you can put astop to it, right?

Johnna (59:45):
And get out of control what?

Zoey (59:54):
is something your younger self believed about love that
you now know isn't true.
God, the romance of like youremotions and you know the like
disney I was gonna say disney,yeah, no, that's such bullshit,
my God.

Johnna (01:00:08):
Yeah, we're not going to be swept off our feet.
It's not.

Zoey (01:00:11):
That's not what we're not, but it's funny because my
wiring is still like that, but Ijust feel better now.

Johnna (01:00:20):
Are you ready for love logic or leave it game?
So most overrated relationshipadvice Follow your heart.
Red flag you ignored, but neverwill again.
Love bombing Text back fast orwait it out.

Zoey (01:00:41):
Oh man, if you want to play it right, you got to wait
it out.
I don't even hate that.
I have to say this If you wantto play it right, you got to
wait it out.
I, I don't even hate that, Ihad that.
I have to say this if you wantto play it right, but if you
don't want to play, then fuckingdo what feels good to you right
, because if you start playing,they're going to start playing
too.
But right now the game is youwait it out which is I hate

(01:01:03):
games.
But you gotta do it yeah, umbiggest green flag in a partner
dependability and being a rockand just like someone who wants
to be there for you.
Not in a hero sense, becausethat's also a red flag, um but
just like, just in theirpresence, like you just feel

(01:01:24):
safe around them a trait youused to chase, but no longer
care about Age and culture.

Johnna (01:01:39):
Most emotionally intelligent sign of love Safety.
Love at first sight.
Is that real or romanticized?
Romanticized Deal breaker?
No matter how hot they are,lack of kindness.
Do soulmates exist, yes, no, ordepends they exist?

Zoey (01:02:00):
most powerful act of self-respect in dating leaving
when, when you're constantlydisrespected, you have to leave.

Johnna (01:02:13):
Go to breakup recovery anthem.

Zoey (01:02:17):
Anthem.
There's a song by Ciara calledLike a Boy.

Johnna (01:02:23):
Yes.

Zoey (01:02:26):
In my 20s when I was cheated on, I had that on repeat
.
I'm like, yeah, what if I didthat to you?
Huh, what if I acted like a boy?
What if?

Johnna (01:02:35):
I I love the the video she had too.
It was awesome.

Zoey (01:02:39):
Oh yeah, no, she killed it um therapy or tequila dude, I
love a good time, but you got tobe careful with alcohol.
That shit is going to get toyour nervous system the older
you get, the harder it is tometabolize that your days at
work or shit.
So it really I have a good time.

(01:02:59):
Gotta be careful with that.
So maybe once a week tequila.
The rest I would say therapy umyour biggest dating ick oh, I
have one.
I'm a little old school.

(01:03:20):
I'm gonna say it because I'mold school.
If it's the first date, I don'tcare where we go, you decide.
If you want to go for a hike,we'll do that.
If we'll go to a coffee shop,we'll do that.
If we'll go to a coffee shop,we'll do that.
If you want dinner, we'll dothat.
If you let me, I'm always goingto pull out my card, regardless
.
I'm going to pull out my cardIf you let me pay on the first
date.
Oh, I just can't.

Johnna (01:03:41):
And it's so awkward too, like I like that's almost the
one thing that I hate aboutfirst dates is like well, I
thought you were going to saydon't kiss me, because that's
mine Like do not try to kiss meon the first day.
Oh really Just don't like.
It's just awkward.
I don't know you, it's just,it's just awkward.

Zoey (01:03:57):
Oh, that's fair, that's totally fair.

Johnna (01:04:00):
What's one thing data will never be able to measure.

Zoey (01:04:03):
About love the spiritual aspect, like, I do believe in
soulmates, not necessarily thatyou're meant to be with them,
but I do believe that somepeople are here on this earth to
teach you a lesson, um, and thelesson, in my opinion, is
usually based on love, eitherself-love or love for other
people.
Um, so, yeah, I, I, I do.

(01:04:24):
I do believe in soulmates.

Johnna (01:04:27):
Okay, and then the last one I have is what's the most
romantic gesture?
That's actually simple.

Zoey (01:04:41):
You know, for me again, it goes back to my old school.
I really am attracted togentlemen behaviors Like.
I'll give you an example Okay,I'm married, so like whatever.
But I did notice this.
I was out about a month ago andI was sitting outside with my

(01:05:02):
girlfriend and it was the end ofthe night there was a guy
sitting at the very end of thetable right, and not a big deal,
everyone's just socializing.
So he asked me a question.
I answered and I guesssomething like he got curious
and interested about what I wassaying.
He asked me the question do youmind if I pull my chair closer?

(01:05:24):
And it's like you don't reallyunderstand that like there's to
me, there's like so much to that.
It's like you're checking tosee if I'm feeling safe before
you do something right thatmight make you feel
uncomfortable.
So, whether it's like opening adoor or like checking in or

(01:05:44):
picking up that bill right again, I don't want to seem like I'm,
you know all about that, butyou know there's just it's the
safety aspect.
Um, I think that it's very muchunderrated that like being a
gentleman will make you so goodlooking and hot and, like you
know, like safe, right,especially if you're dealing

(01:06:04):
with.
I mean, obviously it depends onthe woman right.
The woman has to value thatright.
But if she doesn't, she doesn't.
That's fine.
But yeah, that to me is themost underrated one.

Johnna (01:06:17):
Oh, I agree, and I mean, like you said, it's little
things that doesn't even costyou anything, like walking on
the side of the road when you'reon the sidewalk.
Just little things that wedon't even think about on a day
to day, especially now in theera that we're in, but just

(01:06:37):
little bitty things, likebecause it's almost.
It almost feels strange when itdoes happen.
But, like you said, it kind ofcaught you off guard because it
almost feels like somethinginside of me, that that lit
something up inside of me andyou're just kind of like, but
why?
Because it's so rare.

Zoey (01:06:47):
Yeah, exactly, because it's so rare.
Yeah, exactly so.
It's funny because, even withKevin, one of the first things I
noticed when we went on ourfirst date we were walking
across the street and herepositioned himself to like a
block traffic.
Right, I hadn't seen thatbefore, but I clocked it right
away and I'm like that is a verygood trait that makes a woman

(01:07:10):
feel protected and safe and and,to be honest with you, that's
why I told myself, zoe, justwait, like those are very good
qualities.
You know what I mean?
Yeah, so, yeah, so.
That's what I would say, and Ifeel like this this new
generation of daters are lackingthat.
To be honest with you, I thinkthat, yeah, that's a whole other

(01:07:30):
story for a whole other podcast.

Johnna (01:07:33):
No, I appreciate you so much for doing this.
You are so knowledgeable ineverything that you talked about
and I feel like literallyyou're speaking to my soul.
I'm sure everyone listening isprobably thinking the same.
So you guys all go out and buy.
Love Can, in fact, becalculated.
I'm definitely getting a copybecause I've got to do this test
.

Zoey (01:07:54):
But Zoe tell everybody where they can find you, follow
you all the things that you'redoing right now.
Sure, so you can find me onInstagram.
My social media handle is atZoe Sharif C-H-A-R-I-F.
Same thing with TikTok For thebook.
You can buy it off Barnes andNoble or Amazon.
So Amazon, it's on Prime.
You'll get it within two days.

Johnna (01:08:13):
And, guys, I'm going to have that all linked in the bio
so you can just go to the bio,click a link and go find it.
So thank you so much again fordoing this.

Zoey (01:08:21):
I had so much fun.

Johnna (01:08:22):
All right, guys, I hope you enjoyed that episode as much
as I did, but I just wanted toadd a caveat.
After we officially wrapped theepisode, zoe and I kept
chatting because, like,obviously, and something came up
that I really wanted to sharebefore we go.
Earlier in the episode, we weretalking about, like, being
married or being in long termrelationships, and Zoe
recommended continuing to redothe scores, whether that be,

(01:08:46):
like, every three months, everysix months, especially if, like,
there's maybe fighting orarguing or something like that.
We talked about howcompatibility scores can shift
over time and that's why sherecommended redoing the scores.
So if you are in a relationshipor a marriage where things used
to feel perfectly aligned, butnow the scores are mismatched
and either person is putting inthe work, that does not mean the

(01:09:09):
relationship is still meant towork.
So she wasn't saying like, thisis the end, all be all to a
quote unquote perfectrelationship.
She was just saying that thisis a tool to put in the toolbox
and that circumstances canchange.
People can evolve or maybe theydon't evolve.
If the efforts not there onboth ends, the match doesn't

(01:09:29):
hold.
And just to be clear, ifthere's any form of abuse in the
relationship, whether it bephysical, verbal, sexual, any
type of abuse.
Even if you two are quoteunquote scoring high on paper,
that is never a reason to stayin a relationship just for a
quote unquote perfect scoreperiod.
That's all I'll say about that.

(01:09:50):
But I just wanted to leave youwith that, because numbers only
matter in the real life.
Effort and safety are there too, and remember, it's just a tool
to use in the toolbox.
It's not the end all be all.
But okay, I don't know aboutyou all, but this episode hit
very deep.
Talking with Zoe made me realizehow much of what we think is
just how love works is actuallyold patterns on repeat Patterns

(01:10:14):
we can break, but only if we'rehonest enough to name them.
I've lived some of the stuffwe've talked about today.
I've chosen people who couldn'tshow up, I've confused loyalty
with self-sacrifice and I'vecalled it love when really it
was just me holding on topotential.
So if you're in that spaceright now, whether it be feeling
stuck, frustrated orquestioning your worth, just
know you're not alone and thatyou're not crazy.

(01:10:36):
You do deserve real connection,and sometimes the first step
toward finding it is breakingyour own pattern.
But also grabbing Zoe's bookLove Can in fact be calculated.
If this episode stirredsomething in you, obviously I
want you to share it withsomeone who needs to hear it and
, as always, thank you forbabbling with me.
Until next time, guys.
Bye you.
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