The Boomerang Effect: Why Exes Come Back w/ Meenu

#177: That ex who keeps circling back into your life? There's a fascinating psychology behind it that rarely has anything to do with genuine love or reconciliation. In this raw and revealing conversation, we unpack the real reasons behind those surprise texts and "how have you been?" messages that seem to arrive just when you've started to heal.

The statistics might surprise you—only 10% of exes reach out with genuine intentions to reconcile, while the vast majority are driven by boredom, ego, or a desire for control. Meenu explains the science of mirror neurons, which create psychic-like connections between people who were once close, and breaks down how our brains develop addictive cycles in on-again, off-again relationships.

Most importantly, this episode offers a roadmap for breaking free from these toxic patterns. Through personal stories and professional insights, we explore why we often confuse intense emotional highs and lows (what psychology calls "limerence") with genuine love. You'll learn why waiting to feel confident before cutting contact never works, and how self-respect is developed through actions, not feelings.

Whether you're the one tempted to reach out to an ex or dealing with someone who keeps reappearing in your life, this conversation provides both clarity and practical strategies. Discover how to distinguish between genuine opportunities for reconciliation and situations that will only lead to repeated heartbreak. Ready to break the cycle once and for all? This episode is your first step toward reclaiming your power and peace.

Find Meenu here:

https://www.instagram.com/transcendencebymeenu/

https://linktr.ee/meenuananthh?fbclid=PAZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAac90OQPakTHjzYT_9GxncCeGAcB3e8d4sNObsKT4Dr-Ch4xi-W5vD5PsVDW2w_aem_f52Ft6IiOSC-yFj1eNdcSQ

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Episode Transcript

Johnna (00:00):
What is up everyone?
Welcome back to another episodeof the Babbles Nonsense Podcast
.
Today, Mingyu is back and weare talking about a topic that
hits all the way home that exwho keeps popping back up you
know the one Just when you'vemoved on, healed, maybe even
forgotten their birthday, andthen boom, A random text message
, a call, a like on your story.
Or a casual hey, how you beenLike they didn't just ghost you

(00:23):
months ago.
Or a casual hey, how you beenLike they didn't just ghost you
months ago.
So today we are talking aboutwhy they come back.
Is it love, Is it ego, or is itjust plain old power dynamics?
In this episode I'm sharingsome of my own stories, a little
unfiltered, and we're unpackingthe psychology, the patterns
and how to break the cycle forgood.
Let's talk about it.

Meenu (00:41):
Let's get raw, real and maybe a little messy welcome

(01:07):
back beautiful people into abrand new episode and transcend
into wellness and babblesnonsense.
As usual, jonna had somethingextremely interesting for me to
talk about which I just couldnot say no to.

Johnna (01:20):
I don't know how she every time well, you know it's
for selfish reasons only, butyeah, um wanted to talk about or
I asked me, and you, becauseyou know she's so great at
giving me advice, because that'sher whole job um, I wanted to
know, like why exes kind of likecircle back because that seems

(01:41):
to be a pattern in my life notnecessarily exes or maybe
someone I used to date orsomething like that and I was
like, can you talk about this?
Because I know I have a lot offriends, you know girlfriends
that we sit around and talkabout it and it seems to be a
pattern in their lives as well.
So I was just found it aninteresting topic.

Meenu (01:57):
Oh, it is very interesting.
It's happened, I would say, afew times in my life.
It's happened for my clients,it's happened for my friends and
usually whenever that happens,it's you know.
I see a similar theme.
It's like you know, we feellike we've lost our power, we
feel like we've lost all thework that we've done.

Johnna (02:20):
we feel that emotional tug of war and then, because of
that emotion, we think it meanssomething when it doesn't mean
that yeah, no, yeah, 100% Agreed.

Meenu (02:28):
Yeah.
So one of the main I'm not evengoing to say one.
There's like several reasonswhy they reach out, but like
some of the main reasons which Iwanted to like point out is,
like, have you heard about thisconcept called mirror neurons?
So mirror neurons are somethingwhich you know if you're close
to somebody.
Our brains are like wired withmirror neurons which actually

(02:49):
pick up on the emotional statesof the people that we were once
close to.
Oh, really, yes.
So, for example, my mom I don'tknow how I was like are you
psychic?
And she was like I swear I'mnot Every time.
I'm like feeling down.
I was like are you psychic?
And she was like I swear I'mnot Every time I'm like feeling
down every time I'm sick.

Johnna (03:11):
she knows, okay.

Meenu (03:11):
So kind of like a twin thing, like when twins know,
yeah, similar.
So those are all like mirrorneurons.
It happens with parents andtheir children.
It sometimes even happens withbest friends, which have like a
very soulmatey kind of afriendship, and definitely
happens with husband and wife.
It happens with, you know,ex-boyfriends and ex-girlfriends
, sometimes because of the levelof connection they had.

Johnna (03:31):
That's interesting, because I have that.
You say that, like, like whensomeone has reached out, I had
been thinking about them andthinking about reaching out
myself, yes, and then, like theywere, and I'm like that's odd,
or you, you know, or they showup in a dream, or something like
that yes, yes, so this that'ssubconscious.

Meenu (03:48):
Sure, the subconscious mind is also like playing an
active role in like bringing upthings from the past.
But I found this like thingwith mirror neurons like
happened so much, and ithappened so much with my mom,
that I was like what is thisthing?
And then I was like, oh, thisis mirror neurons.
Okay, this makes more sense,right?
Yeah, and then other some ofthe other reasons that I want to
talk about is there issometimes this like unfinished

(04:11):
emotional ties.
So whenever there is likeunfinished business, like if
emotional closure was neverachieved, you know, exes can
remain untangled in what iscalled like an energetic card.
So I've done this with a few ofmy clients, especially when they
really request, saying I reallywant to get over this person

(04:32):
and I don't like how I'm feeling, I don't like what this is
doing to me, like I feel likeI'm doing great and then it
comes back and then I'm back inthat cycle again.
I just need to.
So we do like card cuttingrituals, we do like energetic
divorce rituals, which is like Iknow it sounds crazy, but it's,
you know, it's actually like a15, 20 minute meditative process
and there's some energyreleasing process that I do with

(04:53):
them and usually after thatprocess there's a huge release
that they feel.
So sometimes it can be becauseof psychic hooks.
It's almost spiritual.
It's hard to explain, or evenlike emotional ties.
It's like maybe everything thatneeds to be said hasn't been
said, maybe that closure thatyou know both of us are, both of
you're wanting to achieve,hasn't been achieved, and then

(05:16):
because of that, there is likeemotional ties.

Johnna (05:19):
That makes a lot of sense, and you know a lot of
like online therapists or justtherapists in general, will tell
you like you have to giveyourself closure, like that
other person's not always goingto give you the closure that you
need.
So would you say, like thismeditative practice that you do
is the way to energetically giveyourself that closure, versus
going to that person and talkingto them 1000%, because when

(05:41):
you're going to that person andtalking to them, you are this is
the thing.

Meenu (05:45):
you're still putting weight on the other person to
make your life better.
So, which means you're stillsaying I can't make it better, I
need you to make it better.
And that's okay if that otherperson is logical and practical
and can offer that kind ofsupport, but usually it's not.

Johnna (06:03):
I was about to ask you because, like, I'm a very much a
like and I get that noteverybody's like me and I get
that I have a very intensepersonality.
Sometimes me and you are verysimilar.
I'm a very inquisitive, I'm awhy person, like, why like, why
this, why that?
And when someone doesn't giveme that blunt, direct answer, it
makes my mind go in circles andthen I have like 25 more

(06:25):
questions versus just theclosure that I need, because
they're just going around it,right, they're not saying what I
need them to say or answeringthe question.
For example, if I'm saying, hey, menu, you want to go out
Friday, and you're like, well,if this client doesn't show up
at this time, then we can go out, and you're like, but you, you
know, if this client doesn'tshow up at this time, then we

(06:45):
can go out, and you're like, butyou're not answering me, like
I'm still stuck in limbo and Idon't know the answer, because,
yes, you gave me an answer, butit wasn't even an answer to the
question that I asked.

Meenu (06:57):
Right, and I think this is where you know it's.
This is like really crazy thatI'm saying this, but it's like I
think if they don't want togive you the answer, I think
it's also safe to assume andunderstand that they don't want
to.
You know, they want to havethat kind of control.
They want to have that, theywant to have that power over you
.

Johnna (07:15):
Remember anytime.

Meenu (07:15):
When somebody doesn't give you the answer, the process
that happens for the otherperson is they start wondering.
It's almost a method to havecontrol.
They actually say be weak.
It's like really, it's reallyinsane like these, like
manipulation tactics and things.

Johnna (07:32):
But do you think that someone who's doing that knows
they're being manipulative andlike they're using it as a
strategy, or is it somethingthat they don't even realize
they're doing?

Meenu (07:41):
both okay it can be either or.
And you know, and and I hate tosay this like this is coming up
recently a lot now and uh, morecommon with men.
And again, I have nothingagainst men, love women and men
the same way but um, they're,they're coming across like
spiritual predators.
Okay, I mean, they're behavingin a way that you like, so

(08:04):
they're not actually beingauthentic to who they are.
They're talking in a way thatyou like, they're mirroring your
behavior, they're showing up ina way that you like, but
they're not actually beingauthentic.
So manipulation very muchexists If they want to have you
in their hook and they want tohave that control over you.

Johnna (08:23):
Sometimes it can be very conscious and remember they're
not going to come and tell youthat they're not going to reveal
that.
I know my friends are likebecause I'll be like.
I'll ask someone straight outlike why are you doing this?
Or like what?
And my friends are like, why?
Like, do you really thinkthey're going to tell you their
playbook?
And I'm like exactly, but like,but like, but like I would.
I would be like yeah, I don'tlike you, I'm just, I like.

(08:46):
I like the attention you giveme, I would.
But I, you know, and again, Iknow a lot of people are not
like me and I guess I justexpect the same in return for
someone to be just direct andhonest.
But we all know that's.
That's.
That's why I don't like to date, because I almost don't believe
anyone now.
Like, I'm so traumatized thatI'm like just don't believe

(09:07):
anyone.

Meenu (09:09):
Yeah, but that's also not .
You know, that's also like anillusion of safeguarding
yourself.
But it's really safe.

Johnna (09:16):
It's like robbing you off of having certain
experiences that you probablyneed to have or would like to
have something Well you'll beproud, because I did get back on
the dating apps and I'm tryingto force myself to do it
sometimes, I just can't.
And I will say there was thisone guy on there that like we,
we matched, or whatever, and hewas like um, I just want to go
ahead and say up front that I'mnot looking for anything serious

(09:36):
.
I just got out of a long-termrelationship.
But I am looking to talk tosomeone, like to talk to people
or whatever and I, and and hewas like so if you're in, if
you're interested, then that'scool, but if not, I totally
understand.
And I was like you know what?
Thanks for being completelyhonest, because that's not what
I'm looking for.
So, thank you, yeah, no problem.

Meenu (09:52):
Nice to meet you.
I mean it's it's nice to havethat, because it's that level of
honesty.
Like I said, it's prettyrefreshing.

Johnna (09:59):
Yeah, I was just like like you, straight up, were like
hey, I'm not trying to wasteyour time, I'm not trying to
play games, I'm not trying tolike you know.
And he was like well, if youstill want to hang out and
you're, you know, you want to befriends.
I was like no, I'm good,because I tend to get attached
to people.
It can't be me, can't be meright, right, no, I think that's
.

Meenu (10:15):
And, honestly, kudos to you too, because I think you've
done some work on yourself,which is you have this
self-awareness that you know.
This is just not my cup of tea,because I feel like if I had
met you, if you had done thislike a year or two years ago,
your people pleasing would havekicked in, and you know I'm
going to give it a shot, likeyou know I'm going to, I'm going
to see what happens, but Ithink you really implemented
some lessons here, so I am proudof you.

(10:37):
So, yeah, yeah, cause part ofme probably would have been like
you know what, what's the harmin meeting a new friend and
hanging out?
And then I end up really likingthis person and they're like I
told you from the get-go Ididn't want a relationship.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And then I've also like noticedthis, which is excess, reaching
out, like coming back to that.
It's like when and this issomething I've seen for myself

(10:57):
like when I actually fully moveon, they are like they're
feeling something energetic.
There's a radar they have,there is a radar, something
energetic happens and they'relike oh, I just wanted to like
see how you were doing.
I'm like Come on now you, youcan feel that I really, really
don't care about you anymore andand I've like, fully moved on,

(11:18):
and you know, so they can again.
It's coming back to thatenergetic pull, which is hard to
explain with science, but youknow it happens when, when you
know somebody is like fullyclosed the door and they're gone
, and you sense that emotionalunavailability, but
energetically.
So now you want to reach outbecause now, guess what, you
don't have any control and youjust want a taste of that
control.

(11:38):
Sometimes it can also be forego reasons, like some exes,
like I've had some clients tellme crazy stories, like they
reach out just to know if theyhave moved on, or they reach out
to know they're still thinkingabout them.
I'm like what?

Johnna (11:52):
that's the part I guess I don't understand, like the ego
check and like and you knowI've tried to do like a deep
dive and like research this forthis topic, but it's like maybe
they once like the attentionthat we gave them, so then they
missed that attention becausemaybe they're not currently
getting that attention fromanyone else and so it's more
just the attention, and that'ssad to me that you would disrupt

(12:13):
someone's peace for attention.

Meenu (12:16):
Oh, 1000%.
But you got to think about itthis way, like when they want
something they're not thinking.
Is that okay?
Is that selfish?
Is that selfless?
Something they're not thinking,is that okay?
Is that selfish?
Is that selfless?

Johnna (12:28):
Like most of them and I hate to say this most of them
are not thinking how this isgoing to affect the other person
.
And I mean, I guess that's truebecause, I'll be honest, I've
reached out to exes too, likewhen I've been bored or wanting
to talk or whatever.
I've reached out, but I guessin my mind I was thinking
they're a guy, they're not goingto be emotionally upset about
this, so maybe that's wrong ofme for even doing that too,
because it's the same thing.
And then I'm sitting herejudging the other part.

Meenu (12:49):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I'm like a lot of men.
You know they're veryemotionally in tune.
You know I have male and femaleclients and I hear this from
different people.
So the ego part is usually likethink about it this way, jonna.
It's like, yeah, even if yourexes or our exes are with
somebody else, we still had acertain energy, we still had a

(13:10):
certain way of fulfilling theirneeds, and even if the other
person is fulfilling other needs, they're not fulfilling it in a
way that we are.
So there is still that voidwhich is there.

Johnna (13:21):
Yeah, so I retract my statement then, because I I have
, I guess, reached out forattention from exes, but usually
they're single.
I don't reach out to exes ifthey're with somebody, um.
But at the end of the day, Iguess where it comes like from
my perspective, and it becomeshurtful, is if that person knows
that you really wantedsomething with them or you

(13:42):
really were in love with them oryou really cared about them,
and then they keep reaching out.
And that's the part that I just, I guess my brain can't
understand well, there isnothing to understand.

Meenu (13:52):
I'm gonna, I'm gonna paint it really clearly to you.
That person does not care okaythat person does not care.
If you verbally like anybodylistening to this, if you
verbally told them not to reachout, if you verbalized it and
said this doesn't have apositive impact.
This is not constructive,especially if we're not going to
get together like it's nothelping or serving in any way

(14:15):
and they continue to reach out.
They're doing it for selfishreasons.

Johnna (14:19):
Like you know, like I said, go check.
Oh, I just want to know ifshe's still thinking about me
because what you're saying isthat if they were reaching out
because they genuinely neededyou or genuinely cared about you
, it would be like, hey, we needto sit down, we need to talk, I
miss you.
Let's reconcile that would bethe reason for the reach out

(14:40):
versus reaching out and justbeing like, oh my bad, I didn't
know, you still felt that way.

Meenu (14:45):
Yeah, and this is really like one of like pull up
statistics, guys, becauseobviously we we're talking about
our experiences, but we alsowant to talk about facts.
Okay, so the reasons why exesreach out, so the cause of
loneliness and boredom, thatbeing the reason, is 30 to 40%.
So you can literally like yousaid you were bored and you
reached out to an ex, like itliterally happens for men, like

(15:08):
when they're bored, you know andyou know their H word horny,
like let me see what she's doingon Friday night or let me see
if she's.
You know, like honestly, I'mjust being honest, like this is
30 to 40%.
And then sexual interest andhookup motivation is like 25 to
30%.
Emotional comfort is 20%.

(15:30):
Guilt believe it or not isactually 10%.

Johnna (15:34):
Okay, let's.
Let's talk about that for asecond.
Why would someone reach out outof guilt but still not want to
be with you?

Meenu (15:41):
So they reach out again.
It is to self-soothe themselves.
Does that make sense?

Johnna (15:46):
because they're feeling guilty for how they treated you
exactly.

Meenu (15:49):
It is like we want to make amends, but not make amends
in a way that they're allselflessly thinking about you.

Johnna (15:57):
You know they want to feel better about themselves
going back to the our episode ofthe people pleasing.
So it's like I don't want herto think of me in a negative
light, him or her, I don't wantthem to think of me in a
negative light.
So I know we ended poorly.
I feel guilty about that.
Let me reach out and make surewe're cool.
Okay, that makes sense, it's aform of people pleasing.

Meenu (16:16):
It's also a form of like self-soothing.
But you know, the worst part islike, if you've done this and
if you're doing this, like yeah,you're like self soothing but
you're also being extremelyselfish and not considering how
the other person feels when youreach out, that's like super.
If you really love that person,you would leave them alone.
You know, that's that's what Iwould say.

(16:37):
And then get this genuinedesire to reconnect and work
things out is 10% desire toreconnect and work things out is
10%, which now going to thesestatistics of reconciling.

Johnna (16:54):
So if we're saying 10% of people truly only reach out
because they want to reconcilewith an ex, then my statistics
that I have about reconcilingare like people who have on and
off like on again, off againrelationships 60% of young
adults report being in an on andoff relationship at least once
in their life, and then only 40to 50% who try to get back
together.
Or sorry, 40 to 50% of thosepeople try to get back together

(17:15):
with their ex, but only lessthan 15% stay together.

Meenu (17:19):
Exactly so.
It's kind of matches in someway or another.
Like that's why it's like,because when they get back
together, it's almost like youdon't know if it's love, you
don't know if it's fear, youdon't know the primary
motivation behind giving thisperson an opportunity.
It is very rarely true love.

(17:40):
I have seen so many women,especially and I'm I'm very
proud to say this right now,because women are really
evolving and changing, which isamazing but I've seen it in my
practice, which is like theydon't want to be alone.
Sometimes, when exes reach out,they're like if they're single,
they're like okay, you knowwhat?

(18:01):
Even though it was toxic, itseems very familiar.
So I want to work withsomething that I already know
rather than starting over with astranger.
So I'm going to go back tofamiliarity, and the problem
with that is you're going backto familiarity that is the
comfort, yeah and comfort, andyou're going back to something
that is already done.

(18:22):
And X is an X for a reason.

Johnna (18:24):
Yeah, now I do think that there are certain
situations where, if it was thewrong timing like, let's say
that y'all got along, everythingwas great, you had a good
connection, you had goodchemistry, but maybe one person
wasn't ready for a relationshipand one person was, and you go
your separate ways because ofthe timing, because it was just
just, I don't know, maybe theyhad to move for a job, or you

(18:48):
know the timing and then likeand then you don't speak for
like a year or two, and thenthey come back and then like,
then they reach out because theygenuinely are like you know
what?
I'm back in town and I miss herand I actually really think I'm
ready for a relationship, andthen they're both on the same
page and the timing is correct.
I think that's the 10% thattypically work, because it would

(19:11):
have worked then had had thewhat's the word, not the timing,
but like your past, I guess, orwhat you're both wanting is
this exact same at the time.

Meenu (19:22):
No, absolutely.
And then there are alsosituations when, believe it or
not, it's not common in America,but it's very common in Indian
culture and some other cultureswhere, you know, sometimes
couples break up for theirparents.
Oh okay, because parents didn'tapprove them you know, oh, okay
yeah that makes sense.
And then, for religious reasons,you know like couples break up

(19:45):
for that, and so they wouldperfectly have been getting
along in a relationship for oneyear or two years or four years
however long they're dating butthey were separated due to, like
, completely external situations.
Yeah, they decided to do that tolike not create chaos in the
entire family and then, for somereasons, they decide to do the
work or decide to, you know,come back and reconcile, when

(20:08):
that is like love, right,because it's like it's not
coming from anything else, it'snot coming from ego, it's not
coming from loneliness.
That means okay, now we clearlyhave different values, where
we've decided not to listen toour parents and we are deciding
to like make this work.
So, again, like I said that,10% to our parents, yeah, and we
are deciding to like make thiswork.
So, again, like I said that,10%.

(20:28):
Again, it's just 10%.
So it's like very rare, butwhat happens, especially with
women?
Because our limbic system, ourlimbic brain, is like larger,
right, we're more driven byemotions and we're more driven
by feelings.
So, generally, when an exreaches out, women tend to
create stories based on thenarrative that they have in
their mind.

Johnna (20:46):
Yeah.

Meenu (20:47):
And a lot of women.

Johnna (20:48):
I think that story is typically like oh, they reached
out, they care.

Meenu (20:52):
Exactly, they care, they want to make this work.
You know they talk to me.
They probably are miserablewithout me, like whatever,
whatever the reason is, but yougot to really.
This is where right.
I mean and I say this with alot of kindness, guys, it's like
emotions and feelings arereally great when it comes to oh
my God, a lion is chasing you,You're afraid, Run for your life

(21:13):
, or you know it's good forcertain things like survival
based, but emotions and feelingsare really bad indicators for
making good decisions.

Johnna (21:24):
Yes, they are, trust me.
I have had to practice andpractice and practice.
When I'm in a heightenedemotional state, put the phone
down.
Put the phone down, especiallyif there's alcohol involved.
Put it down.

Meenu (21:39):
Absolutely, Absolutely.
Emotions are just.
You got to think about it thisway.
Emotions are so, so, sotemporary.
If feelings and emotions are sotemporary, why would you make a
life-changing decision based onthat?

Johnna (21:53):
Yeah, well, yes, and like the example I gave earlier,
there's probably one, maybe twopeople that I've dated where it
was just wrong timing Like I'mnot saying that that's my person
or whatever.
If they came back around itwould.
I could see myself dating themagain, because it was simply for
the fact that we were just intwo places.

(22:13):
I was ready to move forwardwith the relationship and they
weren't.

Meenu (22:18):
Right, exactly, and I've heard like stories like that too
with my friends lives, you know, they had to separate for
religious reasons and then whenthey came back they were really
able to like make some thingswork, like they got along great
and they just had differentvalues.
They just decided, oh, we'renot going to care about our
family.
But then when they came backthey were still that power
couple, you know, and I've seensituations like that.

(22:39):
So definitely 1000% there andthen get this 10% reach out
because they want to know what'shappening in your life.

Johnna (22:49):
Well, mine can just listen to the podcast and know
what's happening in your life,and then our jealousy Like
jealousy.

Meenu (22:59):
Yeah, let's see.
Maybe they see on social mediathat you're moving on or you're
dating someone else and you knowthings like that.
And to get the details to likefeed off of that energy, like
it's just, it's just crazy.

Johnna (23:10):
Yeah, Someone told me I need a male's perspective on
this podcast and sometimes youdon't.
I have had that.
I've asked other.
You know, guys, it's hard whenall my male friends are actually
not talk like they're not toxicmen.
So I've tried to have my malefriends on the podcast and ask
them these questions and they'relike who would do that?
I'm like y'all are not makingthis easy to ask y'all questions

(23:31):
.
If you're like what man doesthat?
And I'm like who am I dating?
If y'all don't do that, youknow what I'm saying.
So, yes, I agree with that.
But sometimes I do think likehaving a male's perspective on
what they feel, because what Ican't write my round my mind,
around a brain, man or woman,that's like I'm with somebody

(23:53):
but I'm still don't want themwith somebody else.
So I'm gonna reach out anddisrupt the peace, like to me
that just doesn't make muchlogic if you have a significant
other that you are with.

Meenu (24:05):
Yeah, it's a sense of control.
They don't like to lose theircontrol.
Do you understand?
Like because think about itthis way Like if you are already
with someone, that means it'sindicating to them that they
don't have that special place inyour heart.
But they didn't want it Exactly.
But it's so interesting.
There's this terrible example.
What did they say?
It's like you don't eat yourown lunch, but you didn't want
it Exactly.
But it's so interesting.
There's this terrible example.

(24:25):
What did they say?
It's like you don't eat yourown lunch, but you don't want to
share your lunch with someone.

Johnna (24:31):
It's like it's true, Like I meal prep all the time
and I'm like I don't want this.

Meenu (24:37):
Yeah, it's literally like that.

Johnna (24:39):
It's like people want what they can't have always, and
I guess that's why I have ahard time dating, because it's
like at the end of the day, Iused to think and I think you
could probably relate, a lot ofwomen can relate we were fed
this idea that there's a perfectrelationship, there's one, one
person you'll ever love, there'sa soulmate, and that's it right

(25:00):
, and it's this long lastinglove.
I no longer believe that.
I believe that you could love alot of people and I believe that
the person that you love andloves you back is like on the
same path, has the same thoughtprocess in a relationship,
communicates very well, becauseit's not going to be perfect in
that situation always.
But if people are willing toopen their mind, like, for

(25:22):
example, I'm not saying I wantto open a relationship by any
means, I'm just saying ifsomeone came up to me and said
you know, this is what I've beenthinking, that person should be
able to feel comfortable enoughto come to me and say, hey,
here's my thoughts, this is whatI've been thinking, what are
your thoughts, and then listento my thoughts and then make an
agreed upon decision as a coupletogether.
Right, and that's just like.

(25:43):
I use that because it's kind ofso far out there that somebody
would be like what?
But too many people are afraidto communicate that because the
other person might be likeexcuse me, you can just leave
this relationship if that's whatyou want, but that person was
trying to communicate to youbefore the cheated right.

Meenu (26:00):
Oh, 1000%.
Oh, my God girl, I hear thisall the time.
I hear this all the time.
There is always communicationin some form or another.
Sometimes it's verbal,sometimes it's not verbal.
Yeah, the more you tend toavoid it, that's when you're in
for surprises, right?
The red flags are always there,the doubts are always there,

(26:22):
they always have been there, andI see like people beating
themselves up by saying, oh, Ican't believe they did this all
of a sudden.
What's?

Johnna (26:32):
it all of a sudden.

Meenu (26:35):
It's never, never.
Patterns are always repetitive.
Yeah, it's never, never, ever,all of a sudden, never ever, all
of a sudden, never ever all ofa sudden.

Johnna (26:46):
But I guess where I was going with that was, I feel like
it's and again, not putting mendown, because I obviously I'm
not a man we can only speak fromthe female's perspective.
I feel like sometimes, when theexes are circling back and the
woman still so emotionallyattached or involved or telling
themselves a story about it,that's what makes it so

(27:06):
difficult and it makes it makesit hard for me to understand the
thought process, like I knowthat you obviously understand
the thought process because youcoach both men and women and you
are a coach, so you kind ofunderstand the psychology behind
it.
But for me, since I don't dothat, like I'm not saying I
don't reach out to exes, I have,but usually if I'm reaching out
to an ex it's because I stillhave feelings for them.
I'm not just reaching outrandomly for attention, it's

(27:26):
because I want attention fromthe person I like.
So I guess my brain just can'tunderstand it.

Meenu (27:34):
Well, I think the easiest way to understand is you're a
woman and he's a man.
Remember, women are more drivenby emotion.
You literally said I feel likeI want, you know, like, yeah,
you see that even the statementis like feeling like I want to
do this and getting backtogether or, you know,
potentially rekindling things,and that's more common in women.
However, for man it's theydon't operate like that.

(27:55):
So this is what I'll say tolike women listening to this if
an ex reaches out, do not createa story.
You are absolutely most likelywrong until you have facts.
Until you have facts, don'tcreate a story.
If your brain creates a story,tell your brain Guess what brain
.
We don't have facts.

(28:15):
We want to believe somethingbecause it makes us.
What does it make us feel Verygood, right, it makes us feel
chosen, it makes us feel likethey value us, it gives us an
internal ego boost.
It does all those things, andbut we can't decide on anything
until we have real facts.
So I'll always say facts overfiction, facts over fiction.

Johnna (28:36):
Yeah, I agree, I agree with that.
So how do we like we know kindof when people are coming back
and we know that, like you'vementioned the ego, you've
mentioned attention and thingslike that.

Meenu (28:52):
Yeah, wanting control, attention, sex yeah.

Johnna (28:55):
So how do we, like we recognize that.
So then, how do we stand in ourpower with that?
And then how do we break thatcycle?
Or, like you said, until youknow the facts?
How do we get the facts ifthey're not willing to give them
?

Meenu (29:09):
I mean, I think that itself answers the question,
right.
If they're not willing to givethe facts, then they're like
reaching out again, probably forthe other reasons, which is
maybe boredom, maybe sex, maybecontrol, because if the person
that's not willing to give thefacts, it's those reasons.
If a person is giving the facts, it's usually because they want

(29:31):
to reconcile, it's usuallybecause they're stepping in with
intention.
Yeah, because what is facts?
Facts is like giving you astatement with intention, right.
So that's how you know.
But stepping into the power, Imean it honestly all boils down.

Johnna (29:50):
And I hate to be the cliche person to say this, but
it boils down to self-love.
Yeah, no, you're right.

Meenu (29:53):
You're right Because someone who loves themselves and
demands respect for themselveswould not tolerate that type of
behavior, because you would belike nah, exactly Because, think
about it this way, like it'slike, and let me, let me help
you out, maybe you know, maybelet me help you out.
Let's say, an ex is reachingout right now and you don't know
.
You know why.
I think the first ice breakingquestion you need to be is like

(30:16):
hey, what was your motivation oryour intention to reach out now
?
Just start there beforeassuming, start there before
dreaming, start there beforecreating stories.
Just out now, just start therebefore assuming, start there
before dreaming, start therebefore creating stories, just
start there.
And then, if they say, oh, Iwant to like, reconcile you know
, I'm talking about the 10% Ifthey say I want to reconcile, I
want to rekindle, I want to dothis, then the next magic

(30:37):
question that needs to be askedis what has changed?
Because we broke up for a reason.
What has shifted and what haschanged that you think that this
is going to be different thistime again, it's not that, oh, I
miss you, I love you, I can'tlive without you.
Sure, because guess what I toldyou about feelings?
They're temporary.
Yeah, because once they haveyou, maybe all those feelings

(30:59):
will be gone, right, right, andwe got to come back to what's
the fact, what actually changed?
right is the?
What is the chance that it'sactually going to work out the
second time?
Okay, that's not sound enough.
If that's not good enough andif it's wishy-washy, then again
you got to go back to do youreally want to put yourself
through all that all over again?

(31:20):
And I'll talk to you about this.
So I once dated a man who wassuper, super avoidant.
Okay, anytime I was in my power, he would be all over me, he
would DM me, he would message me, he would text me, he would
call me, like he was.
You know, he was like oh I, youknow, I really choose you,
you're the one for me, like allthose like long messages, and

(31:42):
I'm like, oh my God.
And anytime I becamecomfortable, he would.
He was like boom, I'm, you know, I'm gonna right there.
Yeah, I'm gonna run, I'm gonnado this, I'm gonna do that.
And then at first, you know, Iwas like, oh, poor him, maybe he
needs to like work through this.
And because you know theproblem with working in mental

(32:02):
health and you know it's becauseyou it's hard for you to judge
anyone you start to havecompassion for everyone, you
start to try to understandeveryone.
Yeah, yeah, and so like I.
But it was like that for me andI was, I was trying to do that,
and then I was like, damn, ifthis was my client, then what
would I, what would I say, youknow, and thankfully we were
never in a relationship we werelike in just in the initial

(32:24):
stages of like situationshipyeah, like very initial stages
of dating, and I was like youknow what?
this is not healthy for mynervous system.
This is like toxic for mynervous system and this is the
sad part.
The women that settled for thistypically had one or two
parental figures.
That never gave them consistentstability, never gave them

(32:44):
consistent.
That never gave them consistentstability, never gave them
consistent safety, never gavethem consistent love.
So because they never gave thatconsistency and it's familiar
to your subconscious and anunconscious brain, even though
you hate it, you still stickaround.

Johnna (33:00):
Yeah, you just described me.
No, I, you know, I had aconversation with a friend the
other day and just told him thatyou know, like, because I used
to say that our story, like Iused to say that my story didn't
matter, I would always like itdoesn't matter.
People's had it worse, but yourstory does matter, because if
people don't know your story,they can't understand why you
move the way you move.

(33:20):
And so, like, I had to explainto my friend, you know, I was
like, listen, like, and I saidexactly what you just said.
I said, sometimes because I hadto fight so hard for my parents
attention and love, I said thatI chase men that I'm dating to
fight for that attention andthat love.
Because I think subconsciouslyand I don't know this to be true
or not, but you can tell me Ithink subconsciously, if I win

(33:43):
them over, then I wasn'tunlovable and then it didn't
matter that my parents didn't dothat, Because if I can win them
, then I won my parents.

Meenu (33:52):
Exactly, exactly, and so it is coming from a space of
deep wounding and it is alsocoming from a place, actually,
of like that ego.
When I say ego doesn't meanlike a negative thing.

Johnna (34:10):
It's coming from that fulfillment to your own ego,
that, by the way, I can stillwin this.
Yeah, and like you said earlier, like when you just said and
that's a pattern I see a lot indating, and that's something
like when me and my aunt talk,I'm like I can't stand, like
playing these games.
I was like I don't want to haveto be so powerful, stand in
power, be the masculine energyall the time and then once I am
ready to be comfortable and fallinto my feminine energy and
like give that over, they thendon't want me anymore.

Meenu (34:33):
Yeah, exactly To me that's games.
It is games.
It is games, but you know theand it's so interesting.
So talking from the other,again coming from a coach's
perspective, and talking fromthe other, again coming from a
coach's perspective, and talkingfrom the other person's
perspective, because I'veactually also coached avoidance
is they are deathly afraid, youknow, because they have
worthiness issues.
So they're like constantlythinking Am I good enough for

(34:56):
this person, am I good enoughfor the situation, am I good
enough for myself?
So they constantly they'rehaving this push and pull
because they also get thistraumatic childhood.

Johnna (35:06):
No right, and a lot of people what I've heard.
Because I'm obviously ananxious attachment style, I tend
to chase avoidance and I followthe psychologist online and he
says that anxious attachmentstyles typically always match up
with avoidance, because avoidsavoid and it triggers that
anxiety and the anxious and thenyou chase exactly and then it

(35:26):
makes them avoid, right, andalso remember that all of this
is dopamine.

Meenu (35:32):
Dopamine, it's like that winning losing cycle, winning
and then space, and then winningand then, and then gaps, and
then winning and then losing,like that whole thing creates
this huge pattern of dopamine inyour brain.
And, and guess what guys,dopamine is addictive.

Johnna (35:47):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Meenu (35:48):
Very addictive.
Even though it's toxic, itstill releases dopamine, which
causes an addictive cycle.
But once you realize that thisis all just chemicals and
nothing is facts, and this iswhere you have to really root
yourself.
It's just chemicals, it's notfacts.
It's just chemicals.
It's is facts, and this iswhere you have to really root
yourself.
It's just chemicals, it's notfacts.
It's just chemicals, it's notfacts.
The more you root yourself inthat and you take some time and

(36:10):
distance, then you're going tobe fine.
My biggest request to you all,whether you're a man or a woman
listening to this, is don't actout of feeling.
Don't act out of feelings.
Yes, love is a feeling, butlove is also a verb and love is
also a choice.

Johnna (36:26):
Yeah.
So do you think that, like ifan ex is circling back and they
are an avoidant, there is apossibility that they could want
to reconcile, but becausethey're an avoidant they can't
admit that to themselves, or you?

Meenu (36:38):
Yeah, absolutely they can .
Sometimes they can.
I've actually, you know theperson that I was talking about
with the one that I dated.
He knew he was avoidant, heknew he knew what he was doing
but he couldn't control itbecause get this because he
wasn't willing to change.

Johnna (36:57):
So they have to, they have to recognize that they have
this avoidant pattern style.
And I'm sorry, I'm not going tosay you can't do this with
self-help books or do it on yourown, but I really think that
someone who hasn't an anxiousavoidant attachment style needs
to work with someone, because I,excuse me, was struggling with
my anxious attachment style andI was running everybody away

(37:19):
pretty much essentially, andthen that's when I was like you
know what, I can't do thisanymore.
I mean, you please help me,please coach me.

Meenu (37:25):
Really.
I mean, I think the self helpbooks are great and you know,
all these, like I said, like ifyou're self led and you want to
do that and you have yourprocess, like do it.
But at the end of the day, likewhen you have somebody holding
you accountable, you know,looking at your patterns,
observing you closely, observingthe situation closely, that's a
different kind of lens thatit's really nice to have.

(37:45):
It's really nice to have thatsupport Plus.
Think about it this way yeah,You're probably, you know,
trying to like not spend toomuch money on a coach or a
therapist or whatever self, butyou're wasting a ton of time in
these books and if you're notgetting results, you're wasting
time and you can get time back.
But you can always make moneyback.

Johnna (38:02):
Yeah, agreed, 1000%.

Meenu (38:05):
And then so to come back to the story with this person, I
I mean I cut ties completelylike permanently blocked,
permanently erased fromeverything.
Because, guess what, my dad wasnot avoidant, he was there for
me, he was secure, he was asecure male figure in my life.
So for me, and avoidant, itfeels like a wreck to my nervous

(38:26):
system and I'm like I'm notgonna, I'm not gonna do that to
me it's.

Johnna (38:30):
It seems normal, it seems normal, it's yeah, here.

Meenu (38:34):
Yeah, I think the real healing comes from knowing that,
okay, even though it's normal,it's familiar, it's still
damaging to my spirit, it'sstill damaging to my goals and
where I want to be and becausewe all like even though I don't
have this particular issue, Idon't, you know, attract a white
and men I still, you know, haveother subconscious wounds that

(38:55):
I've healed with, healed throughmultiple times in my life, like
people pleasing, especiallyright.

Johnna (38:59):
Yeah.

Meenu (39:00):
But I think you always can can decide.
If you really want to, I thinkyou can decide.
Yeah, I mean.

Johnna (39:06):
I do too.
I think you always can decide.
If you really want to, I thinkyou can decide.
Yeah, I mean, I do too.
I think you can, but you haveto recognize it, you 1,000.

Meenu (39:12):
Oh yeah, nothing can happen, like if you are not
aware of, like, where you're at,you can't heal.

Johnna (39:19):
Right and then, once you are aware, like we've said
multiple times on this podcast,once you are aware, it's then a
choice.

Meenu (39:25):
It is a choice.
Yeah, Because that is also achoice.
I'll tell you that because anda lot of people don't choose
that They'll be like yeah, I'mthis way.
I guess I'm this way.
I don't know, I guess I'm thisway.
It's too late for me to change.

Johnna (39:42):
Yeah, it is, and that's why you, I guess, trauma bond
with people, trauma bond withpeople and then you know when
you've healed from trauma.

Meenu (39:49):
Remember, we talked about addictive cycles.
We also talked about howaddiction is dopamine.
So you're addicted to dopamine,which is when we use our phones
, when we watch certain things.
It's all, like you know,producing that chemical in our
brain.
And trauma, as crazy as itsounds, also causes dopamine.
So when that dopamine goes awayand when you're healing the

(40:12):
trauma.
It's going to be really boring.
Yeah, it's going to feel likeboredom because you're not
having the spikes, you know.
But remember, boredom is notbad, it's safe.
It's safe.
It's probably what your bodyneeds.

Johnna (40:24):
Yeah, not desires, but needs deep down yeah, no, I've
heard that because I know we'vedone podcast episodes where I've
talked about like when I'vedated people in the past, I was
like this is boring and you werelike they were probably the
right one for you because theyweren't like making me feel
crazy all the time.

Meenu (40:43):
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
Yeah, this is.
This is some good stuff.
I feel like a lot of peopleneed to hear this.

Johnna (40:50):
So as far as like breaking the cycle for good, so
like some talking points or likesome questions that I had was
like some things that you'vetold me in our sessions and
things that I want to bring upand like maybe you can elaborate
on them for us is that you'vetold me you teach people how to
treat you.
So if you're continuing toallow this person to circle it

(41:13):
in your life and you know youtake them back, take them back.
Take them back when there is noserious.
Now, like you said, if theywere serious to reconcile, there
would be a deep conversationand you you wouldn't have
questions, you would have youranswers.
So would you say that is partof the problem.
I guess I'm saying I would bepart of the problem if I

(41:35):
continue to allow, allow, allow,allow, because then that person
is like I don't respect her,she doesn't respect herself.

Meenu (41:41):
No, absolutely.
Oh my God and I hate to saythis it kind of sucks when I say
this, but it's true but absenceand scarcity really creates
fondness.
Absence and scarcity reallycreates that respect.
You know, I have seen the waypeople treat me when I have
fully cut them out and they comeout as a different person, the

(42:02):
way they treat me is completelydifferent and I've fully cut
them out and.
I've fully, as a differentperson.
The way they treat me iscompletely different, yeah, and
I've fully cut them out and afully like stepped into my power
and respect myself.
The way they treat me is verydifferent, and I think this is
where I'm not saying you, butpeople that allow this have to
take massive responsibility.
Because you're enabling thattoo.
You're enabling the behavior.
Then you're picking up thatphone call.

(42:23):
You're enabling that behaviorwhen you're responding to that
text.
You're enabling the behaviorwhen you're picking up that
phone call.
You're enabling that behaviorwhen you're responding to that
text.
You're enabling that behaviorconstantly.

Johnna (42:29):
Yeah, I have a friend and we had a conversation about
this.
I was like you know, we can sithere and blame the other person
all day long, but at the end ofthe day, we do have to take
responsibility in our feelings.
So, for example, if I'mcontinuing to let someone circle
back in my life and I'mcontinuing to be the one crying
and upset, I have to also takeresponsibility.
Sure, should they be respectfuland not do that?

(42:50):
Sure, they should, but thatdoesn't mean I can control them.
I can control me, though, andif I don't want to continue to
feel that way, then stop it.

Meenu (42:58):
Yeah, then just really I'm telling you cold turkey,
like just just cut them off.
Cold turkey, just stop it, itgo.

Johnna (43:10):
No contact, there's, there's power and no contact,
Like it's.
It's brutal, it's very hard,but and sometimes I think, like
you know, we see people addictedto alcohol, we see people
addicted to drugs and we willlook at someone and I'm not
saying judge them, but in ourbrains may go.
I don't understand that, but atthe end of the day, it's no
different than this toxic cycleright here, because someone
would look at us and go what thehell Like?
Why are you continuing to playin this loop?

Meenu (43:30):
Yeah, 1000%.
I'll give you an example ofthings like this.
And then things like eating,you know, like sugar addiction
and caffeine addiction, drugs,alcohol, Sure drugs and alcohol
are more like extreme.
But there's so many addictivepatterns that we all have which
we minimize, thinking oh, it'snot that bad, and then we

(43:51):
secretly judge the other peoplethat are addicted to drugs and
stuff.
But sorry, you're also in anaddictive loop.

Johnna (43:57):
Yep, right Now.
I know sometimes it's becausewe lose trust in ourselves like
we feel like we can't do that.
So how could someone like ifthey're listening to this, build
trust in themselves again afterletting someone back in
repeatedly so that they could belike I trust myself to let this
go?

Meenu (44:14):
You know, okay, this is again, this is going to be hard,
but the self trust is onlygoing to come when you do the
right thing.
The self-trust is not going tocome from a feeling, because
some people, what they're doingis they're desperately waiting
for the feeling.
They're waiting to feelempowered.
They're waiting to feelconfident.
They're waiting to feel likefuck them, I'm good.

(44:37):
They're waiting that.
You know that surge of ego andthat surge of power.
But the worst part about it isyou're going to keep waiting
Because you take the action,you're not going to feel the
feeling in these cases.
I'll give you an example.
You can read about driving acar, you can watch videos about

(44:58):
driving a car, but until youdrive a car, you're not going to
feel confident that you candrive a car Right right.
Until you do the action, untilyou take that you can drive a
car Right right.
Until you do the action, untilyou take the step which is
cutting them off, which is notresponding to that energy, until
you do that, you're never, evergoing to get confident.

Johnna (45:15):
And that when you said that, that just literally was
like oh, that makes so muchsense, because in nurse
practitioner school, like we hadto learn to suture right.
So I sutured on a pig first andit was very scary and the
skin's not the same as a humanskin and obviously the pig was
dead.
And so then when I sutured forthe first time, I was like very,
very nervous.
And then, once I did it overand over and over again, I was

(45:37):
like oh, this is easy, exactly,and everything is a muscle.

Meenu (45:40):
Think about it this way Maybe self-respect is not a
muscle that you grew up with orsomething that you cultivated in
your way, but I'm telling you,it can be developed anytime.
It's like literally going tothe gym and suddenly working out
new muscle groups.
It's going to pain, it's goingto hurt, it's going to hurt like
crazy, but you don't stop that.
That's when the work starts.
You're just starting.

(46:01):
Yeah, yeah, I love that I see alot of people you know make
terrible decisions based onfeelings oh, I didn't feel like
doing this, so I didn't.
I wasn't drawn to doing this.

Johnna (46:13):
It feels good in the moment oh, it's the like I said.

Meenu (46:16):
Feelings are the worst, guys.
I mean it's like, yeah, if, ifyou're scared and you want to
run away from a lion, sure it'suseful, but if there is a
survival-based situation, it'suseful, but it's very useless,
and most of the times it's veryuseless.

Johnna (46:32):
Yeah, no, I agree.
How would you tell someone likehow could they distinguish true
closure, like from that person,from self-abandonment,
masked-abandonment, masked asquote unquote, being the bigger
person, like I'm just doing thisto be the bigger person, like I
guess I'm like how do you trulyknow that it's closure versus

(46:56):
I'm abandoning the situation,I'm walking away from something
that I don't know.
That could have been real,could have been great.

Meenu (47:05):
And this is this is really tricky.
I feel like even in thequestion there is like
unresolved things, right, it'slike, oh, how do I know if I'm
not abandoning them, or how do Iknow if I have?
Okay, the way you know.
First of all, let me talk aboutclosure.
The way you know you haveclosure is there is a level of
indifference okay there's nohate because, remember, the

(47:26):
opposite of love is not hate.
Yes, opposite of love isindifference.
Yes, a lot of people think theopposite of love is hate and
there's still a strong emotionexactly, I hate him.
I don't want to talk like allthat is sure your friends are
probably like fuck, fuck him,you hate him.
That's great Fueling the ego,but when you hate someone

(47:47):
they're actually more in yourmind than when you love someone.

Johnna (47:51):
You're right.

Meenu (47:51):
You're right Because you're sitting there constantly
obsessing like yeah, yeah.
So closure, the way you knowyou have closure is you're
indifferent.
You know you don't hate them,you don't love them, and you
know I'm I'm somebody like withmy exes, like I'm somebody
that's like I always want you toeat, but not in my table.

(48:12):
So I wish you well.
Even if you've been toxic, evenif you've caused me pain, I
still wish you well, becausethat's just that's who I am.
I'm not saying everybody has tobe like that.
I so wish you well, but I,apart from that, there's nothing
there.
It's like very indifferent,yeah, sense, yeah, that's how I
know.
Oh, yeah, it's, it's done.

(48:33):
It's like sense, yeah.
And then the other part of thequestion is like are you
abandoning them?
I mean, I don't know, I don'tknow.
It depends on where therelationship ended, how the
relationship ended.
Did you abandon them to protectyourself?
Then I don't even think that.
Then that's abandonment, thenthat that's self-protection, you

(48:53):
know.
But I will say this, guys likeI think what you're meaning to
ask is like probably not doingthe work and cutting it, cutting
it off just to run away, andthat again is also going to bite
you later because you're notdoing the inner work.
It's like an inner work, and ifyou ask me, how does the inner

(49:16):
work look like?
Okay, why did I?
Which part of me said yes tothis person?
Why did I?
Which part of me said yes tothis person?
Which part of me that neededhealing, that I didn't give to
myself, that that person gaveyes, right, maybe you don't see
yourself that much.
And this person whenever youwere with them, they really saw

(49:37):
you for who you are, yeah, yeah.
And so what does that indicate?
That indicates that maybe youneed yeah, yeah.
And so what does that indicate?
That indicates that maybe youneed to see yourself more, you
need to love yourself more, youneed to give whatever that
person gave you.
You need to start identifying.
What is it?
Why am I addicted to thisperson?
What did they give me that I'mcurrently not giving to myself?

(49:59):
And when you start giving thatto yourself, you're going to
notice oh, I don't, I don't needthem to give, giving to myself.
And when you start giving thatto yourself, you're going to
notice oh, I don't, I don't needthem to give it to me.

Johnna (50:05):
Right, no, that makes a lot of sense because you're
chasing that, that feelingYou're chasing the feeling
You're never again.

Meenu (50:13):
guys, you're never chasing the man, the person the
woman, you're chasing thefeeling.

Johnna (50:18):
Right, and it's so funny that when we talked about doing
this podcast, I had somethingcome up on Instagram that I saw,
that like really resonated thatkind of correlated with this
podcast and it said they are notrejecting you, they're
rejecting the person they haveto become to be with you 1000%
and they don't.
Yeah, and like, if the persondoesn't want to do the work to

(50:39):
change to be with you, then theydon't want to be with you.

Meenu (50:42):
Yeah, literally.
But this person that I wastalking to you about earlier,
like I, I kind of indirectlytold him like dude, you're,
you're too toxic for me, likeI'm, I'm too secure for you,
like, just, you know, no, Ican't, you know I can't, I can't
do that.
So, so that that's a very yeah,they don't have the capacity to

(51:03):
handle it.

Johnna (51:04):
I think sometimes that people can just sniff out the
insecurities in people andthey're like, oh yeah, I got
this one.

Meenu (51:10):
Oh, easily, easily, easily, easily, because, like
the things that you talk abouttoo much sometimes I feel like
when people talk too much, theyjust give away a lot.

Johnna (51:20):
Yeah, I'm bad about that .
Like I think I can't rememberif it was you or my aunt who
told me like when I would go ona first date because I was so
nervous.
I just talked a lot and I'msuch an honest and blunt person.
If someone asked me a questionI would just tell them
everything.
And someone was like sometimesyou're giving the playbook away,
you're telling them how to play, you what you because if you

(51:41):
push what, how, what takes youlike, what makes you vulnerable.
What?
Yeah, and like you.
If you talk about your pastrelationships a lot and like
you're like, yeah, I reallyhated this, then they try
everything in the beginning todo opposite of what you hated,
so that you're like, oh my gosh,they're opposite of this guy.
But then they're reallyactually the same and it's like
the bait and switch yeah, oh, oh, oh, my God, absolutely,

(52:01):
absolutely, like.

Meenu (52:03):
I've seen it happen time and time and time and time.
And then I also want to like,really like, quickly, like touch
on limerence and I think wetalked briefly, touched on it
when we were texting.
So limerence is actually thisfeeling which feels like love.
It's almost very tricky, butit's not love, it's almost like

(52:26):
it's, it's a trauma response.
So person is like, giving youthe attention and the validation
you think that, oh, this islove, this is how love feels
like, but then it's kind of anaddictive thing.
So how do you know if it'slimerence or love?
You know it because in love youactually feel secure, you're
not, you're not obsessive,obsessing about that person.

Johnna (52:48):
You're not when I looked it up, cause I'd never heard of
this.
So like, so the act like when Ilooked it up, like here's to
know, like limerence, they callit obsessive infatuation, so
intense emotional highs and lows.
Obsessive thinking about theperson, fantasizing more than
experiencing reality, focusingon what could be, not what is.
Your self-worth is tied totheir attention or validation.

(53:09):
Craving signs.
They feel the same anxiety whenthere's distance or silence.
It's often one-sided orambiguous, fueled by uncertainty
, rejection or lack of closurecan feel addictive or out of
control.

Meenu (53:21):
You're in love with the potential, not the person always
, limerence is always so, so, so, so tricky, and I've yeah, it
is tricky.

Johnna (53:29):
I've seen people confuse limerence and love so many
times when, then, they say likelove is calm, stable, secure,
grows through time.
It's not intense sharedcommitment, effort and
vulnerability, acceptance offlows and real life and
compatibility, mutual care,communication and consistency.
You feel your full self aroundthem.
You can be your full selfaround them.
No performance or guessing, nogames.

(53:51):
You're seen, chosen andrespected.
It doesn't consume you.
It supports you.
It's peaceful, not chaotic.
Love builds safety.

Meenu (53:58):
It does not provoke anxiety 1000% and you're also
not constantly questioning howdo they feel about me?
That happens with limerence alot.
Whenever you're in limerence,you're like I think I'm.

Johnna (54:08):
Now that you've told me this, I'm like I think maybe,
maybe I haven't ever been inlove, Maybe it's all been
limerence.

Meenu (54:13):
That's why I'm talking about this, because a lot of us
haven't really.
You know, we think it was love,but it's actually limerence.

Johnna (54:20):
Yeah, when you told me that cause, I was like.
You were like have you everheard of this?
I was like no, and I looked itup.
I was like, well, I'll bedamned.
I was like have I ever been inlove?

Meenu (54:32):
Yeah, probably not.
Yet you know, we don't knowAnytime that anxious loop is
there.
It's never.
I'm telling you guys, like lovefeels good and safe, it feels
good.
You're not wondering, you'renot overthinking, you don't have
to want.

Johnna (54:47):
Yeah, you don't have to worry.
If I do this, are they gonnaleave?
If I say this, are they gonnaget upset?
Are they gonna?
You know, yeah, I've been in alot of relationships where it's
like, uh, because I, I do liketo communicate and then, like
I'm scared sometimes to say thethings that are on my mind,
because I'm like, how are theygoing to respond?
Are they going to leave?
Are they going to get mad?
You know.

Meenu (55:06):
And then let me tell you this before, before we wrap up
or with more questions limerenceis actually more common in
affairs.
Oh, really, yes, you know, andI'll tell you why.
The reason is because maybethey're not getting along with
their husband and then there'sthis other guy who's like giving
them the attention and thevalidation.
What limerence also makes youdo is it makes you villainize

(55:27):
your husband more.
And I'm not saying your husbandis like partner, is perfect or
whatever, but because there'sthis like intense feelings with
this other person, unconsciouslyyou start putting them on a
pedestal and then you're like,oh, my husband doesn't do this,
like he doesn't.
But then get this, get this,this person that you're

(55:49):
infatuating over, that person isnot your husband.
They're not sharing your bills,they're not, you know, sharing
the room.
They're not in the messy housewith you.
They're not around you when youhave a tantrum or when you're
angry or when you're sad.
So the messy house with you,they're not around you when you
have a tantrum or when you'reangry or when you're sad.

(56:10):
So that's how you know what'slimerence and love, because with
limerence you haven'texperienced all of it, but you
think it's love.
But with love you've gonethrough the thick and thin of
the whole situation.
You've been through all of itand you still have that feeling.
You still feel that securityWith lim limerence.
You're only fantasizing and andyou know how to check.
If you're on limerence, thinkabout it.
Have you had a bunch ofconflicts with this person?

(56:31):
How do they handle theseconflicts?
Are they running from theseconflicts?
If you've and I always say this, like to my clients that are
like in the beginning process ofdating, starting to date, and
they're like, oh my god, thisguy or this woman is fantastic,
I'll be like wait until youdisagree on a few things, just
wait you know, yeah, and see howthe communication goes because

(56:53):
how a person handles conflict isgoing to determine everything.
It is not how they handle thegood times.
How are they?
Are they lovable when we'rehappy?
Are they showing up wheneverything is smooth?
That speaks nothing, that'snothing.
But how are they when there isa disagreement?
When you're saying no, I don'tagree with you.
I think you hurt my feelings.

Johnna (57:15):
How are they handling it If they don't care that they
hurt your feelings?
They walk out the door, theyrun away and say you know what,
Bye, because you said somethingI don't like.

Meenu (57:23):
Um, I'll talk to you in a couple weeks exactly, and so
that's how you know if it'slimerence or infatuation or love
, yeah, like if it's love, ifit's that intentions with love,
then it will stand through a lotof things no, that makes a lot
of sense.

Johnna (57:39):
So, um, to wrap this up, I do want to say, like, if
someone is circling back, guy orgirl X, whatever, just remember
you are not hard to love, youare just hard, or you are just
easy to manipulate.

Meenu (58:02):
And the more you allow it , the more you're, you know,
obviously like making them thinkthat, okay, this is an easy
target, okay, she's, she'sallowing it.
So if she's allowing it, then Ican keep doing the same thing.
Remember, like loving somebodyand respecting somebody is
different.
Like that person, even withloving intentions, if they reach
out to you, they may still notrespect you because you
continually encourage thatbehavior.

Johnna (58:23):
Yeah, no, yeah.
And guys, we say this like weunderstand, like we've been in
this situation.
It's not as easy as us sittinghere saying, oh, just don't
allow it.
Like, trust me, I've been there, it's not.
It's not that easy, cause whenyou feel like you love this
person and you don't know likeyou love them but maybe they
don't reciprocate, it is hard toclose that door and close that
chapter.

Meenu (58:43):
It is because you're still living in that potential
and you're still having thatdream version in your head,
thinking, oh, what if he changesthis time?
Or what if she's different thistime?
And maybe I can give this ashot Again facts over fiction,
guys.
Facts over fiction.
Facts over emotions.
Facts over stories.

Johnna (58:59):
Agreed.
Thank you so much for alwaysdoing these episodes with me,
and if anyone is out there andthey're a male perspective and
want to jump on a podcast withme and you, we invite it, we
welcome it.
We don't want anyone to thinkthat we're just trying to come
from the female perspective butunfortunately, guys, we're
females and that's how our brainoperates.

Meenu (59:17):
Yes, but also to give you another layer of like comfort
is that I do have a lot of maleclients.
Yes, I do coach a lot of malesand you know they go through
something similar.
But, and I tell you this, theadvice is the same for both
genders.
Right?
It never changes.
Right, Never changes.

Johnna (59:34):
No, I agree.
I just you know when.
When someone reaches out to youand says you need a male
perspective on there, I welcomeit.
It's not that I'm not welcomingit.

Meenu (59:42):
Oh yeah, we welcome all the perspectives, so thank you
so much for doing this.
I feel like this is, I think,that the tensions that's going
on in dating and relationshipsbetween men and women.
I think this is really neededright now, so I'm really glad
you always pick the best topic,so I'm super grateful.

Johnna (59:56):
Well, thanks to my life and the examples in it.
All right, guys, until nexttime.
Bye.

Meenu (01:00:03):
Bye-bye you.