November 4, 2023 • 44 mins
Can Hamas be removed from power in Gaza?
In this probing discourse, we engage with Israeli Army Spokesman Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner and Palestinian lawmaker Mustafa Barghouti.
We aim to shed light on this intense conflict, the war in Gaza, the contentious ground war, and the emotive information war.
What are the military objectives - their achievability, their focus on targeting Hamas' regime, and the potential rise in terrorist activities should they succeed. We also critically evaluate the challenge that comes with minimizing civilian casualties and the difficulties of planning for multiple fronts in these battles.
Adding a new layer to our discussion, Mustafa Bargouti, brings forward the importance of a democratic alternative for Palestinians. We delve into the cancellation of the Palestinian elections, the looming power of illegal settlers, and the effects of a continued settler colonial system.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dana Lewis (00:10):
Hi everyone and welcome to another edition of
Backstory.
I'm Dana Lewis.
On this Backstory I talk to theIsraeli Army spokesman about
the war in Gaza, the ground warand the information war, and
from the West Bank, palestinianlawmaker Mustafa Bargouti, about
chances for peace despiteincreasing violence, some of it
(00:31):
aggravated by attacks fromJewish settlers on Palestinian
communities.
Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerneris an IDF spokesman and he
joins me from Israel, shalom sir.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF (00:46):
Shalom .
Dana Lewis (00:47):
First of all, we've just been listening to US
Secretary of State AnthonyBlinken, who is there on the
ground in Israel, and it nowappears that certainly the US
administration and we hadalready heard from President
Biden is pushing for ahumanitarian pause.
Do you think that that willhappen?
Will Israel agree to that, andwhat are some of the inherent
(01:08):
risks in that?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spok (01:11):
So obviously that's not really
something that is beingdiscussed by the IDF.
The IDF is busy now, on Day 28of our war against Hamas.
Of course we do see thehumanitarian mission as part of
our overall mission and that'swhy we are facilitating
evacuation of Palestinians fromnorth to south, from the north
of Gaza Strip to south,encouraging people to go.
(01:33):
That's why we've determined ahumanitarian zone in the
southwest area of the Gaza Strip, the Muassi area.
That will be a safer zone, evenwithin the safer zone of the
south.
And, of course, thecoordination of access to Gaza
for humanitarian goods, foodsupplies, medical supplies,
(01:57):
water all coming in from Gaza,from Egypt, from Rafat, into the
Gaza Strip, something like Ithink yesterday it was around 80
trucks a day and it'sincreasing almost every day now
over the last week and that'spart of the mission Will there
be a humanitarian hiatus?
If the government instructs usto do so, the IDF, of course,
(02:18):
can hold fire.
We are concerned that Hamaswill take advantage of that and
that is why anything that goesin cannot alleviate Hamas's
situation from a operationalperspective.
Dana Lewis (02:32):
And in fact that was referred to by the Secretary of
State, where he's saying thereare deep discussions about the
why, how and when and the factthat this has to help people on
the ground.
It's not to help Hamas and forthem to take advantage of that.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Sp (02:49):
Yeah , that's precisely the concern
we can't help to.
Just two weeks ago, hamas wentinto a UN facility, a UN
compound, and took food, medicalsupplies and fuel for their
tools.
And this was on the second weekof the war, something that the
(03:09):
UN announced and then latererased because they were afraid
for their lives.
It just goes to show the typeof organization we are facing.
We know we released, forinstance, a conversation between
a health administrator in theEl Shifa Hospital today, saying
that beneath the El ShifaHospital there's half a million
(03:30):
liters of fuel that could supplythe hospital but is going to
Hamas's operations.
It just goes to show why we'reconcerned.
What are our concerns about?
And, of course, fuel going intoHamas means that they can
operate on the ground.
They're using it to power theirventilation system, their water
systems, all everything they'vebuilt on the ground.
Dana Lewis (03:52):
So I don't think in my time of covering Israel,
going back decades, I have everseen the push and the effort by
the Prime Minister's office, bythe IDF spokesman's office, to
engage media and try to gettheir message out.
I mean, you were fighting aground war, but you're also
fighting a propaganda war.
Is that fair?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/ (04:12):
Absolutely Terrorist organizations have
nothing except for the abilityto amplify their terror.
And that is why we understandthat, from day one of their
attack against us, the hourglassof international legitimacy is
not in our favor, on one hand,but also that they will be doing
everything to manipulateemotions of the world, of
(04:35):
Israeli society, on differentlevels, so civilian when they
are releasing videos, forinstance, of hostages, they are
trying to expose the most rawnerves of Israeli society.
And when they intentionallyprevent Palestinians from
(05:00):
evacuating areas where we saywe're going to strike, it's
because they want to exasperatethe situation on the ground in
order to create moreinternational efforts against us
.
So it's a huge challenge.
Dana Lewis (05:12):
I mean, I know you probably personally are affected
too when you look at whathappened on October the 7th and
Blinken looked visibly shakentoday when he said he looked at
another video of one of theterrorists chased the father and
sons into a shelter and thenshot the father in front of the
(05:36):
kids.
The kids ran back in the houseand the terrorists went into the
house and ate from therefrigerator and Blinken noted
that.
The outrage at this event andthe brutality we have to ask
ourselves, why has it faded soquickly?
Certainly not in Israel, butwhy has it faded, do you think,
(06:01):
around the world?
And why shouldn't it?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spok (06:04):
So , first of all, it shouldn't,
because what Hamas has done overthe last 16 years of power,
they've normalized their placeas a legitimate player at the
table.
Israel in itself had never upuntil now, up until the 7th of
October, created a strategicobjective to remove Hamas from
(06:29):
power, and so, in its own action, it was basically legitimizing
the presence of Hamas in theregion.
And therefore, when Hamas hasconducted their most abominable
attack against the people ofIsrael, against the South there
was, you know the question wasautomatically okay, how much
(06:51):
time can we tell this story ofwhy things needs to change?
And when we look around at theworld leaders, everybody
understands that the end gameneeds to one where we rid the
world of Hamas as a governingauthority of the Gaza Strip.
And the only question is how dowe do it and what is the
expense?
And this is the challenge.
It's a challenge for themilitary, it's a challenge for
(07:13):
the world, but the world doesneed to rally around that idea
that the end goal must beremoval of Hamas.
They cannot be allowed to holdthe Gaza Strip as a governing
authority to build a terroristarmy, as they did to utilize all
the tools of government foracts of terrorism.
The world will be patient if weare susceptible and attentive
(07:38):
to the expectations of the worldand we'll see what happens in
the diplomatic arena after themeeting with between Secretary
of State Blinken and PrimeMinister and the president and
so on, and there might be somechanges, but it won't change the
end goal.
(07:58):
That has to change.
It needs to be a fundamentalparadigm change and I think
Israel and the people of Israelwon't settle for anything less.
The bar is now set very highfor Israel and I think it was
Golden Mayer said once that if Ineed to be liked and pitied or
(08:22):
despised and dead, I'll bedespised, and I think this is
the general mind state or thepsyche of most Israelis.
That woke up on the 7th ofOctober to the sirens, and this
is how I I'm a reservist, I'vebeen out of virus, retired from
the military five years ago Inever, ever thought I would be
in uniform again representingthe state of Israel and the IDF
(08:45):
specifically.
And when the sirens sounded onthe 7th of October, on the 7th
of October at 6.30 in themorning, when I was lying there
next to my wife in bed and thesirens in my phone were going
wild and my wife opened her eyesand said what's going on?
And I said the sirens aresounding down south.
(09:07):
And, as I said, down south,then the sirens near where I
live in Tel Aviv, began to ring.
So we went down with mydaughter down into our shelter
in the house and when I came upfrom the shelter I'd already
seen the magnitude on telegramchannels, on social media, of
what Hamas was doing.
And I said to my wife this issomething we've never
(09:27):
experienced in our lifetime andI hadn't even grasped the
magnitude of the actions ofdeath that they'd done.
And so Israeli society, all ofIsraeli society and if you would
have asked me a month ago,peter, what is the Israeli
society?
How is it?
And I would have probably saidtorn to pieces, but around this
everybody has unified, everybodyis united in the idea that this
(09:50):
is our existence.
Dana Lewis (09:53):
Let me ask you about the fighting Gaza to take Hamas
out.
Do you think that these areachievable military objectives?
And right now, why is itfocused on Gaza City and
surrounding Gaza City?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spok (10:11):
So the north of Gaza is the
beating heart of Hamas'operations, of its
decision-making capabilities, ofits execution abilities.
So any government has a centerof government.
So over the years we've calledHamas a terrorist organization,
but they are actually an entitywith institutions and processes
(10:31):
and finance and ministries, andis a government.
So in order to one make surethey don't govern Gaza, we go
after their center of gravity,which is the government.
So yes, of course it'sachievable, because once you
take down the government, theycan't rule.
If they can't rule, they don'thave the tools of government.
That means they can only focuson being a terrorist
(10:52):
organization, and being aterrorist entity means that we
will pursue them and hunt themdown, and we're doing that in
parallel as we take down.
So I would say absolutely yes.
The idea of destroying Hamas asa governing authority, as an
organization that has the toolsof government to conduct
terrorism and organize terrorismagainst the State of Israel, at
the end of this will be nolonger existent, if you'd ask me
(11:16):
.
Ok, but what about the heartsand minds of the ideal and the
ideology of Hamas?
We're not focusing on that.
That is not our mission.
Dana Lewis (11:29):
But if I can jump in , and I don't mean to interrupt,
but you're saying just notremove them as the
administrative authority in Gaza, but also as an operating
terrorist organization.
Which means their ability tomanufacture and deploy weapons,
their ability to strike Israelwith rockets.
I mean the whole deal.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF (11:49):
That's what we are after to change the
security paradigm.
They had the pleasures and theluxuries of government in order
to build this industry of terror, and that will no longer exist.
This is the end game.
It has to change.
I can't see any other optionfor Israel.
I worry the message that'scoming to our enemies in the
(12:14):
region is that you can butcher1,400 or so Israelis and get
away with it.
Dana Lewis (12:24):
Let me ask you, when you hear these calls from
Blinken and elsewhere where theysay we have to reduce civilian
casualties because there will bealienation of Palestinian
civilians, he said today if weshow indifference to that, do
you worry, as an army person, asthe spokesman for the IDF, that
(12:48):
the moment you start talkingabout reducing civilian
casualties in Gaza, that meansprobably you rely less on
airpower and more on boots onthe ground and soldiers, which
means that your soldiersprobably are going to be in
harm's way even more?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spok (13:06):
So we have substantial forces on
the ground now.
We are mobilized extensively,we are expanding our activities.
We've encircled Gaza City, asyou pointed out, and the Air
Force have.
I would say their operationsare still going, but they're now
more focused on support effortsto support the ground forces.
Up until now the Air Force wasthe main I would say the main
(13:32):
effort, but now it's more rolledback.
It's not that there aren't morestrategic attacks that can be
conducted by the Air Force, but,yes, indeed, the ground forces
and the naval forces areconducting more and more
activities.
Dana Lewis (13:47):
Is the fight fierce?
I mean, how would youcharacterize it?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/ (13:50):
Absolutely there are face-to-face urban
warfare is being conducted.
They come out of tunnels,attack our APCs or our personnel
carriers, our tanks.
They drop, use drones withexplosives on that they use on
our forces.
So the understanding in Israelthat this is a long war ahead,
(14:13):
it's not something that's goingto be a quick fix.
It's going to be an extendedwar, it's going to be an
extended period of time.
The magnitude of theirinstitutionalized terrorism
cannot be erased with a quickbrush, a quick draw of the brush
.
It needs to be strategic, itneeds to be systematic and it
(14:33):
needs to be extensive in itsresult.
We, to date we are now in thelast five days of the ground
operations that have expandedover time there have been 24
soldiers killed in action, whichis, and if you compare to the
(14:58):
amount, the hundreds ofterrorists that have been killed
in those exchanges, there'sobviously nothing really
comparable.
But it is the type of warfarethat we expect that they will
try and come out of the holes,come out of the tunnels, conduct
attacks with RPGs and smallmachine gun fire and it's going
to be a long, challenging battle.
Dana Lewis (15:22):
What also is challenging is that you can't
look.
It seems to me it gazes inisolation.
You are being fired on by theHouthis from Yemen.
Increasingly, there areexchanges on the northern border
with Lebanon, with theHezbollah and Hassan Nasrallah
will no doubt make more threatsin his speech today and the
(15:47):
strings are being pulled by Iran.
Russia's playing a part inSyria.
It's difficult, when you take alook at the scope and breadth
of this, not to worry about itexpanding and just to look at it
as one kind of tip of the spearin Gaza, isn't it?
And I'm sorry for that being acomplicated question, but it's a
complicated problem right now.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spok (16:10):
So the nature of Israel, the IDF's
planning process for overseveral years now is that there
is never an isolated arena.
The understanding is that ifthere is one front, it's usually
going to be two or more so.
Indeed, when we at thebeginning of this war, when I
was recruited on the 7th, 8thand 9th of October and
(16:33):
colleagues like myself, we wererecruited on mass 300,000
reservists it's the largestrecruitment of reservists in the
history of the IDF and so manyof those have been
pre-positioned on the borderwith Lebanon to face and
(16:55):
confront Hezbollah, to combinewith the regular forces.
There's a substantial forcethere.
Many of those reservists areacross the different services,
so it's Air Force, naval Forces,ground Forces, home Front
Command.
We are prepared for aconfrontation also with
Hezbollah, also potentially fromSyria.
(17:16):
The aerial defensivecapabilities that have been
proven by over the last few days, with the surface to air
missile cruise missiles beingshot by the Houthis, have been
intercepted by F-35 jets andalso aerial defense systems like
the Arrow.
(17:36):
And so, yes, the workingassumption is that there is a
possibility that it will gobroader than just Hamas and our
focus will be shifted.
We are saying very clearly thatHezbollah needs to decide if
they represent Iran or representLebanon.
If they represent Iran, itmight be at the expense of
(17:57):
Lebanon.
And our message to Lebanon isvery clear Take charge of what
Hezbollah is doing, because youhave a lot to lose.
And our message to Hezbollah isalso look what we're doing to
Hamas, step by step, stage bystage, strike by strike, and
really think forward if you wantto cross that threshold.
Dana Lewis (18:16):
Lieutenant Colonel, last word to you, and you've
been very generous with yourtime.
Can we go back to where westarted?
On the hostages, I know you putup a tweet the other day
talking about how many are heldand the numbers have changed a
little bit.
But I just real, every time Isee the numbers of children and
(18:37):
the ages of some of thosechildren and we all hope that
they can somehow be released innegotiations with an
organization that's not veryfamous for caring about humanity
.
But can you just make yourfinal comment, just on those
hostages that are being held inthe efforts to try and get them
out while you fight a war, whileyou try not to harm them in the
(18:58):
process?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spok (19:00):
So the hostages are a national
priority, to bring them home,and it's one of the missions of
this war is to bring them home.
Today, there are 241 hostagesbeing held, but that number goes
up and up and down.
Every day changes slightlybecause more intelligence is
coming out clarification thatsomebody was actually killed so
(19:20):
it's not being held hostage butmaybe dead body different levels
of understanding of what isgoing on as the dynamics of this
war develops.
We released, rescued onehostage, ory Magydish.
She was a soldier in theobservation posts, so gathering
(19:46):
field intelligence, and she wasabducted on the 7th of October.
And she was rescued in a heroicintelligence-based mission.
And we are utilizing all of thetools at our hand in order to
identify, seek out and find thehostages.
(20:07):
While there are operationalcomponents that are ongoing in
order to bring to the releaseand also the diplomatic efforts
that are also underway, hamasare responsible for their
well-being, as well as demandingthat the International
Committee of the Red Cross haveaccess to assess their situation
, their well-being.
As far as I know, that hasn'thappened yet.
(20:28):
They need to be brought home,they need to be let free, as you
said, babies from the age ofnine months old and elderly over
the age of in their late 80sand anybody in between men,
women, children.
It's heartbreaking, it'sdevastating and it is what Hamas
(20:49):
does.
So they need to be brought home.
They need to be brought homenow.
We are doing what we can inorder to bring them home.
Just one example we droppedleaflets in Gaza a few days ago
suggesting that there might befinancial benefits if you give
up information that brings totheir release home.
(21:10):
So we're utilizing all of thetools basically in the spectrum
of hostage situation, and that'sone of the core missions of
this war.
Dana Lewis (21:22):
Bring them home, Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner.
Thank you so much, sir.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF S (21:27):
Thank you.
Dana Lewis (21:32):
Mustafa Bargouti is a Palestinian physician, an
activist, a politician.
He's been a member of thePalestinian Legislative Council
since 2006,.
Also a member of the PLOCentral Council.
Mr Bargouti, welcome, Thank you.
You know I've known you a longtime.
You may not remember me, butwith Canadian TV I used to
(21:53):
interview you, often in the 90sand after Am I mistaken?
Or when you were a doctor, youknow, I used to say are you
going to get involved with thePalestinian Authority?
And you used to say, no, I'm adoctor, I'm not a politician.
What happened?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian (22:10):
I had to become a politician
because I couldn't change thehealth policies and health
system without changing thepolitical system.
And did you change it?
I think we are managing to havea greater influence.
Yes, and you know, I even I amnow convinced that we represent
(22:32):
a very important third line inPalestine, a democratic third
alternative which is notaffiliated neither to Fatah or
Hamas, and I think we have avery important future because
the Palestinian people want tosee this third democratic
alternative, the voice of what Icall sometimes the silent
majority.
Dana Lewis (22:53):
So tell me about what is that third line and what
does it represent for thesilent majority of Palestinians
who are not being, to a largedegree, not being heard right
now?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinia (23:07):
It means many things.
We founded a movement calledthe Palestinian National
Initiative with people likeHaidar Abdel Shafi and Dr Edward
Saeed and hundreds of otherPalestinian intellectuals and
political leaders, and it hasbecome the third force probably
in Palestine, and we are callingfor a combination of three
(23:29):
things Struggle to achievefreedom and ending occupation
and the system of apartheid thatIsrael is practicing against us
, but also we're calling forinternal democracy and the right
of the people to democraticallyelect their leaders, and the
separation of powers, theexecutive, judiciary and
legislative powers and all theaspects of true democracy.
(23:53):
But we don't mean onlypolitical democracy.
We also speak about socialdemocracy, and that's why a
third very important componentof what we do is the issue of
social justice, women's rights,rights of people with disability
, eliminating poverty, etc.
We've been calling fornonviolent resistance and we've
been leading while nonviolentresistance for a very long time,
(24:16):
and we've become probably themost unifying power in Palestine
, calling for national unity ofall Palestinians and the
creation of a unified leadershipon the basis of democratic
participation.
Dana Lewis (24:31):
Unified, nonviolent.
Where does that leave you?
With Hamas and Gaza.
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinia (24:38):
In dialogue with them and I think
we managed to convince them withthe value and power of
nonviolence, and they did stickto it for a very good period of
time.
The Israel continued, of course, their attacks with severe
violence and, of course, you seewhat's happening now.
But we are in dialogue withFatah, with Hamas, with
(24:59):
everybody, because we believethat what we need is really
national unity and a unifiedpolitical program and a unified
political struggle.
Thank you, thank you.
Dana Lewis (25:10):
Definitely something unified, because, with the
Palestinian Authority split nowsince 2006 with the elections in
Gaza and Hamas took over in2007.
I mean there's been basicparalysis of Palestinian
leadership.
Would you agree?
Mustafa Barghouti/Pales (25:26):
Totally , and the only solution to that
is free, democratic elections,and I think we've been calling
for democratic elections and wewere about to have them in 2021.
And we even met in Cairo allthe Palestinian political groups
14 of them.
We agreed on a whole scenarioof conducting elections.
We even agreed about how we canrun elections, even in
(25:50):
Jerusalem, which Israel isobstructing as an act of
nonviolent resistance, butunfortunately, the Palestinian
Authority and President Abbascancelled the elections and it
was clear that Israel isadamantly against elections, and
the United States of America,the great democratic country,
was not also supporting havingdemocratic, free elections in
(26:10):
Palestine, and we lost anopportunity.
We would not be in thissituation had we have elections
then, because elections wouldhave produced unified
Palestinian Legislative Counciland eventually, new presidential
elections, and we would haveended this situation of one
(26:31):
party rule in Gaza and one partyrule in West Bank, especially
that all the results of all thepolls at the time showed that no
single party, neither Fatah norHamas, can have absolute
majority, which meant we wouldhave had a truly democratic,
pluralistic system, and that'sexactly what I think
(26:51):
Palestinians need.
And now, when I hear theAmericans and Israelis speak
about a new leadership in Gaza.
I think this is a bighumiliation to the Palestinian
people and a big insult, becauseit's not Israel who should
decide who would lead us.
We need, the only way, is toensure that Gaza is not separate
(27:14):
from the West Bank, and what weneed is really a democratically
elected leadership that wouldlead the way to having a true
independent Palestinian state ora one democratic state.
Dana Lewis (27:29):
How can you resolve the fact that Hamas is dedicated
to eliminating Israel, hascarried out these atrocious acts
of violence inside Israel?
How do you surely you must feelthat they have to be removed?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestin (27:45):
Look , I don't agree or accept the
killing of any civilian or thatIsraeli or Palestinian, but at
this very moment, the people whoare being slaughtered at the
Palestinian civilians more than9100 of them so far and the
number keeps increasing.
Every five minutes we're losinga Palestinian, every 10 minutes
we lose a Palestinian child,and the Israeli air strikes
(28:07):
continue.
You cannot condemn the killingof Israeli civilians without
condemning the killing ofPalestinian civilians.
But Hamas, hamas is ready toaccept to state solution If
Israel is.
Hamas is ready for.
To state solution is if Israelis ready to accept a Palestinian
state in the West Bank, gazaStrip and East Jerusalem.
(28:30):
I think they've just repeatedthat by their own leader and
that was the program of theNational Unity Government, which
I mediated in 2007, which washeaded by the head of Hamas and
the deputy was therepresentative of FATA and I was
the only spokesperson of thatgovernment, which everybody
besieged till it collapsed inafter 86 days.
(28:54):
I think that all Palestinianswould accept to state solution,
but the one side that does notaccept that is Israel, and the
one side that blocked allpossibilities of negotiations is
Netanyahu and the man who cameto power under one slogan to
kill Oslo process and to killthe two state solution and to
(29:15):
kill the potential for anyPalestinian state was Benjamin
Netanyahu, and he's the one whoblocked all negotiations with
any Palestinians since 2014.
So, in reality, you cannotaccuse Palestinians of not
accepting to state solution whenIsrael has been the power that
has blocked that road and iskilling the two state solution
(29:36):
with all the settlements that isexpanding in the West Bank.
Dana Lewis (29:40):
I'm nodding my head because I agree with you, not
because I hear you, but becauseI believe that Netanyahu did
indeed take every opportunity hecould to kill the peace process
, even though, when he came topower after the assassination of
Yitzhak Rabin, he said that hecouldn't and wouldn't, but in
fact, at every step he hasopposed a two state solution.
(30:01):
What happened and I hate to askyou because you're not Israeli,
but you're a neighbor and youunderstand your partners in the
so-called Oslo Accords whathappened?
You speak about the silentmajority of Palestinians.
What do you think that happenedto the silent majority of
Israelis between the signing ofthe Oslo Accords and today, when
(30:23):
all they want really is revengeand removal of Hamas as a
threat in Gaza?
Where is the silent majoritythat supported peace?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestini (30:33):
Two things happened to that
majority.
They shifted to the extremeright and that is because they
felt they can keep occupationand keep exploiting our land and
our water and our workers at nocost.
But most Israelis don't want itanyway.
But most Israelis don't want it.
Dana Lewis (30:52):
I mean really most Israelis don't want to do their
army service in the West Bankand they don't.
I mean most Israelis don't goto the West Bank.
Most Israelis, the settlerfactions, yes, but mainstream
Israelis were willing to have atwo state solution.
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestin (31:08):
Yeah , but the majority of them
support the extreme right-wingparties.
That's why they are in power.
And there is another importantdevelopment one should not
forget about, which is thatbecause Oslo agreement included
a very big flow, and that is ofcourse the fault not only of the
Israelis and Americans, butalso of the Palestinian
(31:30):
leadership, because it allowedthe continuation of Israeli
settlement expansion.
The number of illegal settlersgrew from one one one hundred
twenty one thousand in nineteenninety three when Oslo agreement
was signed, to more than sevenhundred fifty thousand today.
These settlers became a hugepolitical power.
(31:50):
Now they have fourteen membersin the Israeli Knesset out of
one hundred twenty, and some ofthem are holding very vital
positions, like Smotrich, who isthe minister of finance and
also he's the minister of theWest Bank.
Being very is in charge ofinternal security.
(32:11):
Smotrich and being very, who areboth settlers, have been
advocating the elimination ofany Palestinian right in the on
the land of historic Palestine,and both of them both of them
have said Smotrich said that hewill fill the West Bank with
settlers and settlements so thatPalestinians would lose any
(32:33):
hope of a state of their own,and eventually they will have.
We will have one of threeoptions either to immigrate,
which is ethnic cleansing, oraccept a life of subjugation to
Israelis, which is apartheid, ordie, which is genocide, which
that they are conducting now inGaza.
So it's not just theresponsibility of these extreme
(32:55):
people in Israeli government,but also it is the
responsibility of the so-calledmoderates in Israel and they are
not moderates, in my opinion,like Labid and Gantz and the
Labor Party and others who votedfor the state national law of
Israel in the Israeli Knesset,which said that it's Israel,
(33:15):
meaning the land of historicPalestine, is a place where the
right of self determination isexclusive for Jewish people.
So the public in Israel shiftedto the extreme right, and
that's why I don't mean by thatonly the Likud, but all these
parties, even the religiousparties, who used to be sort of
(33:35):
moderate in their approach,changed and they're a decalized,
and that's what you see, thatthe result of that, what we see
today, how do you bring backthat portion of Israeli society
that probably would support atwo states solution?
Dana Lewis (33:51):
I mean, how is there while the bombs are falling in
Gaza?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palesti (33:56):
Maybe , maybe.
Dana Lewis (33:57):
And, by the way, while Israelis are kidnapped and
children are held by Hamas, isthere some hope left that
something positive comes fromthis?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestini (34:14):
Two things are happening.
First of all, I think everybodynow remembers that the issue of
Palestine is not only aboutoccupation but also about a fact
that we have been subjected toa settler colonial system and
that settler colonial system istrying to finish its job by
ethnically cleansing Gazacompletely.
They cannot do it up till nowbecause Egypt is standing up to
(34:37):
them and because Palestiniansrefuse to leave and become
refugees again.
But that's their planethnically cleansing of Gaza and
then gradual ethnicallycleansing of the West Bank.
They've already startedethnically cleansing of Area C
To 13 Palestinian communitieshave already been affected by
the terror of Israeli illegalsettlers.
(34:58):
So that's their plan.
But maybe, with all the horrorsthat are happening and all
these victims on both sides,maybe this will change the
formula in the sense of tellingthe Israeli public that there is
a cost of occupation, there isa cost of the system of
apartheid, there is a cost ofcontinuation with these dreams
(35:22):
of ethnically cleansing andother people.
There is a price they arepaying.
Dana Lewis (35:28):
Maybe this will bring many people to the
rational thinking that eitherway, it doesn't, because even
Rabin I don't think Rabin didthe peace process out of charity
.
I think that he said over andover again if we don't do this
now 30 years ago almost if wedon't do this now, israel will
(35:54):
face more extremism and moreviolence, and it will threaten
the state of Israel.
The Oslo peace accords were putforward, really as a life ring
to both sides, don't you think?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palesti (36:07):
Right and many Israeli leaders,
including, I think, houd Barakand Omar, said that Israel will
become an apartheid state ifthere is no Palestinian state.
That's for sure, but thereality is today Israel is
trying to solve the demographicproblem, which is that our
(36:28):
numbers now on the land ofhistoric Palestine as
Palestinians is equal, if not alittle bit larger a little bit
larger than the number ofIsraeli Jewish people,
regardless of the fact that 7million of us are refugees in
other countries.
So that put Israel in front ofa very big challenge either to
(36:49):
state solution immediately,which means removing the
settlements from the West Bank,or accept us as equal human
beings in one democratic state.
The Israeli fascists now in thegovernment are trying to solve
that formula in a different way,by ethnically cleansing
(37:09):
Palestinians in Gaza and maybelater in the West Bank.
Dana Lewis (37:13):
What is going on in the West Bank and I appreciate
your time and I know we'redrawing to a close here, but as
we speak, I mean a lot of peopledon't realize what's going on
in the West Bank.
We see what's happening in Gaza, but there's a lot of settler
movement and violence takingplace in the West Bank, right?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestini (37:30):
now , and I want the public to
understand that what happened inGaza was a result of what was
happening in the West Bank inthe first place.
History did not start on the7th of October.
Before that, israeli army andsettlers have killed 248
Palestinians in the West Bank,including 40 children.
(37:50):
They attacked Islamic andChristian holy places.
They spit at Christian clerksand worshipers.
They tried to change the natureof the most holy place for
Muslims, which is the AqsaMosque, and Netanyahu spread the
word everywhere that he's goingto normalize with Saudi Arabia
and all Arab countries andliquidate the Palestinian issue.
(38:11):
And he had the guts, two weeksbefore the war started in Gaza,
to stand up in the UnitedNations General Assembly and
show the map of Israel thatincluded the annexation of all
the West Bank and all of GazaStrip and all of the Golan
Heights, openly declaring thatin front of the whole world
community.
Of course, that led to areaction, which you see today.
(38:36):
But what they are doing now inthe West Bank is even horrible.
They've just they alreadykilled additional 132
Palestinians including it thatwere killed directly by Israeli
illegal settlers, and they arenow putting the whole West Bank
into clust.
They divided it into clustersof ghettos 224 ghettos separated
(38:56):
from each other by 650 militarycheckpoints, many of which are
closed.
They're attacking us everywhere, viciously, harassment
everywhere.
They already arrested 1,750more Palestinians, making the
number of prisoners in Israele-jails 7,000, including 200
(39:17):
children and more than 60 women,and more than 2,000 are under
the so-called administrativedetention, which means they are
in jail without knowing why,without charges, without due
legal process.
This was the reason why we hadwhat we have in Gaza, and the
two places are totally connected.
(39:37):
You cannot separate one fromthe other.
Dana Lewis (39:41):
But how do you assess Israel's main goal now,
its military goal, stated by theIDF and empowered by the
Israeli cabinet, to remove Hamasfrom the leadership of Gaza, to
replace Hamas?
Is there any of that realistic?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinia (40:00):
No , and they cannot eradicate
Hamas, because Hamas is not anarmy or an organization.
Only Hamas is an idea.
And even if they reoccupy Gazacompletely, this will not make
Hamas disappear.
And they left Gaza mainlybecause of the Palestinian
resistance in the first place.
And they didn't really withdrawfrom Gaza, they just redeployed
(40:23):
and today they are trying toethnically cleanse Gaza.
This is the real goal and ifthey fail, that means their
whole operation has failed andthey will come back to the same
thing.
I told you about either twostate solution or one democratic
state where we can coexist andlive together in equality.
(40:44):
There is no alternative to that, because we, the Palestinians,
we the Palestinians and I speakon behalf of everybody here we
will never accept to be slavesof a system of occupation or
apartheid, or accept to becomerefugees again.
Dana Lewis (41:00):
Mustafa Bargut, good to talk to you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you my pleasure In thatbackstory this week.
On British TV this Morning, aJew and a Muslim spoke about the
need to bury hatred, not toforce people to pick a side and
we are people first.
Attacks on civilians arenothing short of abhorrent and
to be condemned.
(41:21):
More talking betweenPalestinians and Israelis needs
to start occurring, led by theinternational community.
It's time for a major effort tosettle the Palestinian-Israeli
conflict, but first the Israelihostages need to be released.
Hamas needs to go.
Israel has a right to defenditself, but Netanyahu's
(41:41):
right-wing government also needsto disappear for the sake of
peace.
Thanks for listening toBackstory.
I'm Dana Lewis and I'll talk toyou again soon.
Hi everyone and welcome to another edition of
Backstory.
I'm Dana Lewis.
On this Backstory I talk to theIsraeli Army spokesman about
the war in Gaza, the ground warand the information war, and
from the West Bank, palestinianlawmaker Mustafa Bargouti, about
chances for peace despiteincreasing violence, some of it
(00:31):
aggravated by attacks fromJewish settlers on Palestinian
communities.
Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerneris an IDF spokesman and he
joins me from Israel, shalom sir.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF (00:46):
Shalom .
Dana Lewis (00:47):
First of all, we've just been listening to US
Secretary of State AnthonyBlinken, who is there on the
ground in Israel, and it nowappears that certainly the US
administration and we hadalready heard from President
Biden is pushing for ahumanitarian pause.
Do you think that that willhappen?
Will Israel agree to that, andwhat are some of the inherent
(01:08):
risks in that?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spok (01:11):
So obviously that's not really
something that is beingdiscussed by the IDF.
The IDF is busy now, on Day 28of our war against Hamas.
Of course we do see thehumanitarian mission as part of
our overall mission and that'swhy we are facilitating
evacuation of Palestinians fromnorth to south, from the north
of Gaza Strip to south,encouraging people to go.
(01:33):
That's why we've determined ahumanitarian zone in the
southwest area of the Gaza Strip, the Muassi area.
That will be a safer zone, evenwithin the safer zone of the
south.
And, of course, thecoordination of access to Gaza
for humanitarian goods, foodsupplies, medical supplies,
(01:57):
water all coming in from Gaza,from Egypt, from Rafat, into the
Gaza Strip, something like Ithink yesterday it was around 80
trucks a day and it'sincreasing almost every day now
over the last week and that'spart of the mission Will there
be a humanitarian hiatus?
If the government instructs usto do so, the IDF, of course,
(02:18):
can hold fire.
We are concerned that Hamaswill take advantage of that and
that is why anything that goesin cannot alleviate Hamas's
situation from a operationalperspective.
Dana Lewis (02:32):
And in fact that was referred to by the Secretary of
State, where he's saying thereare deep discussions about the
why, how and when and the factthat this has to help people on
the ground.
It's not to help Hamas and forthem to take advantage of that.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Sp (02:49):
Yeah , that's precisely the concern
we can't help to.
Just two weeks ago, hamas wentinto a UN facility, a UN
compound, and took food, medicalsupplies and fuel for their
tools.
And this was on the second weekof the war, something that the
(03:09):
UN announced and then latererased because they were afraid
for their lives.
It just goes to show the typeof organization we are facing.
We know we released, forinstance, a conversation between
a health administrator in theEl Shifa Hospital today, saying
that beneath the El ShifaHospital there's half a million
(03:30):
liters of fuel that could supplythe hospital but is going to
Hamas's operations.
It just goes to show why we'reconcerned.
What are our concerns about?
And, of course, fuel going intoHamas means that they can
operate on the ground.
They're using it to power theirventilation system, their water
systems, all everything they'vebuilt on the ground.
Dana Lewis (03:52):
So I don't think in my time of covering Israel,
going back decades, I have everseen the push and the effort by
the Prime Minister's office, bythe IDF spokesman's office, to
engage media and try to gettheir message out.
I mean, you were fighting aground war, but you're also
fighting a propaganda war.
Is that fair?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/ (04:12):
Absolutely Terrorist organizations have
nothing except for the abilityto amplify their terror.
And that is why we understandthat, from day one of their
attack against us, the hourglassof international legitimacy is
not in our favor, on one hand,but also that they will be doing
everything to manipulateemotions of the world, of
(04:35):
Israeli society, on differentlevels, so civilian when they
are releasing videos, forinstance, of hostages, they are
trying to expose the most rawnerves of Israeli society.
And when they intentionallyprevent Palestinians from
(05:00):
evacuating areas where we saywe're going to strike, it's
because they want to exasperatethe situation on the ground in
order to create moreinternational efforts against us
.
So it's a huge challenge.
Dana Lewis (05:12):
I mean, I know you probably personally are affected
too when you look at whathappened on October the 7th and
Blinken looked visibly shakentoday when he said he looked at
another video of one of theterrorists chased the father and
sons into a shelter and thenshot the father in front of the
(05:36):
kids.
The kids ran back in the houseand the terrorists went into the
house and ate from therefrigerator and Blinken noted
that.
The outrage at this event andthe brutality we have to ask
ourselves, why has it faded soquickly?
Certainly not in Israel, butwhy has it faded, do you think,
(06:01):
around the world?
And why shouldn't it?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spok (06:04):
So , first of all, it shouldn't,
because what Hamas has done overthe last 16 years of power,
they've normalized their placeas a legitimate player at the
table.
Israel in itself had never upuntil now, up until the 7th of
October, created a strategicobjective to remove Hamas from
(06:29):
power, and so, in its own action, it was basically legitimizing
the presence of Hamas in theregion.
And therefore, when Hamas hasconducted their most abominable
attack against the people ofIsrael, against the South there
was, you know the question wasautomatically okay, how much
(06:51):
time can we tell this story ofwhy things needs to change?
And when we look around at theworld leaders, everybody
understands that the end gameneeds to one where we rid the
world of Hamas as a governingauthority of the Gaza Strip.
And the only question is how dowe do it and what is the
expense?
And this is the challenge.
It's a challenge for themilitary, it's a challenge for
(07:13):
the world, but the world doesneed to rally around that idea
that the end goal must beremoval of Hamas.
They cannot be allowed to holdthe Gaza Strip as a governing
authority to build a terroristarmy, as they did to utilize all
the tools of government foracts of terrorism.
The world will be patient if weare susceptible and attentive
(07:38):
to the expectations of the worldand we'll see what happens in
the diplomatic arena after themeeting with between Secretary
of State Blinken and PrimeMinister and the president and
so on, and there might be somechanges, but it won't change the
end goal.
(07:58):
That has to change.
It needs to be a fundamentalparadigm change and I think
Israel and the people of Israelwon't settle for anything less.
The bar is now set very highfor Israel and I think it was
Golden Mayer said once that if Ineed to be liked and pitied or
(08:22):
despised and dead, I'll bedespised, and I think this is
the general mind state or thepsyche of most Israelis.
That woke up on the 7th ofOctober to the sirens, and this
is how I I'm a reservist, I'vebeen out of virus, retired from
the military five years ago Inever, ever thought I would be
in uniform again representingthe state of Israel and the IDF
(08:45):
specifically.
And when the sirens sounded onthe 7th of October, on the 7th
of October at 6.30 in themorning, when I was lying there
next to my wife in bed and thesirens in my phone were going
wild and my wife opened her eyesand said what's going on?
And I said the sirens aresounding down south.
(09:07):
And, as I said, down south,then the sirens near where I
live in Tel Aviv, began to ring.
So we went down with mydaughter down into our shelter
in the house and when I came upfrom the shelter I'd already
seen the magnitude on telegramchannels, on social media, of
what Hamas was doing.
And I said to my wife this issomething we've never
(09:27):
experienced in our lifetime andI hadn't even grasped the
magnitude of the actions ofdeath that they'd done.
And so Israeli society, all ofIsraeli society and if you would
have asked me a month ago,peter, what is the Israeli
society?
How is it?
And I would have probably saidtorn to pieces, but around this
everybody has unified, everybodyis united in the idea that this
(09:50):
is our existence.
Dana Lewis (09:53):
Let me ask you about the fighting Gaza to take Hamas
out.
Do you think that these areachievable military objectives?
And right now, why is itfocused on Gaza City and
surrounding Gaza City?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spok (10:11):
So the north of Gaza is the
beating heart of Hamas'operations, of its
decision-making capabilities, ofits execution abilities.
So any government has a centerof government.
So over the years we've calledHamas a terrorist organization,
but they are actually an entitywith institutions and processes
(10:31):
and finance and ministries, andis a government.
So in order to one make surethey don't govern Gaza, we go
after their center of gravity,which is the government.
So yes, of course it'sachievable, because once you
take down the government, theycan't rule.
If they can't rule, they don'thave the tools of government.
That means they can only focuson being a terrorist
(10:52):
organization, and being aterrorist entity means that we
will pursue them and hunt themdown, and we're doing that in
parallel as we take down.
So I would say absolutely yes.
The idea of destroying Hamas asa governing authority, as an
organization that has the toolsof government to conduct
terrorism and organize terrorismagainst the State of Israel, at
the end of this will be nolonger existent, if you'd ask me
(11:16):
.
Ok, but what about the heartsand minds of the ideal and the
ideology of Hamas?
We're not focusing on that.
That is not our mission.
Dana Lewis (11:29):
But if I can jump in , and I don't mean to interrupt,
but you're saying just notremove them as the
administrative authority in Gaza, but also as an operating
terrorist organization.
Which means their ability tomanufacture and deploy weapons,
their ability to strike Israelwith rockets.
I mean the whole deal.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF (11:49):
That's what we are after to change the
security paradigm.
They had the pleasures and theluxuries of government in order
to build this industry of terror, and that will no longer exist.
This is the end game.
It has to change.
I can't see any other optionfor Israel.
I worry the message that'scoming to our enemies in the
(12:14):
region is that you can butcher1,400 or so Israelis and get
away with it.
Dana Lewis (12:24):
Let me ask you, when you hear these calls from
Blinken and elsewhere where theysay we have to reduce civilian
casualties because there will bealienation of Palestinian
civilians, he said today if weshow indifference to that, do
you worry, as an army person, asthe spokesman for the IDF, that
(12:48):
the moment you start talkingabout reducing civilian
casualties in Gaza, that meansprobably you rely less on
airpower and more on boots onthe ground and soldiers, which
means that your soldiersprobably are going to be in
harm's way even more?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spok (13:06):
So we have substantial forces on
the ground now.
We are mobilized extensively,we are expanding our activities.
We've encircled Gaza City, asyou pointed out, and the Air
Force have.
I would say their operationsare still going, but they're now
more focused on support effortsto support the ground forces.
Up until now the Air Force wasthe main I would say the main
(13:32):
effort, but now it's more rolledback.
It's not that there aren't morestrategic attacks that can be
conducted by the Air Force, but,yes, indeed, the ground forces
and the naval forces areconducting more and more
activities.
Dana Lewis (13:47):
Is the fight fierce?
I mean, how would youcharacterize it?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/ (13:50):
Absolutely there are face-to-face urban
warfare is being conducted.
They come out of tunnels,attack our APCs or our personnel
carriers, our tanks.
They drop, use drones withexplosives on that they use on
our forces.
So the understanding in Israelthat this is a long war ahead,
(14:13):
it's not something that's goingto be a quick fix.
It's going to be an extendedwar, it's going to be an
extended period of time.
The magnitude of theirinstitutionalized terrorism
cannot be erased with a quickbrush, a quick draw of the brush
.
It needs to be strategic, itneeds to be systematic and it
(14:33):
needs to be extensive in itsresult.
We, to date we are now in thelast five days of the ground
operations that have expandedover time there have been 24
soldiers killed in action, whichis, and if you compare to the
(14:58):
amount, the hundreds ofterrorists that have been killed
in those exchanges, there'sobviously nothing really
comparable.
But it is the type of warfarethat we expect that they will
try and come out of the holes,come out of the tunnels, conduct
attacks with RPGs and smallmachine gun fire and it's going
to be a long, challenging battle.
Dana Lewis (15:22):
What also is challenging is that you can't
look.
It seems to me it gazes inisolation.
You are being fired on by theHouthis from Yemen.
Increasingly, there areexchanges on the northern border
with Lebanon, with theHezbollah and Hassan Nasrallah
will no doubt make more threatsin his speech today and the
(15:47):
strings are being pulled by Iran.
Russia's playing a part inSyria.
It's difficult, when you take alook at the scope and breadth
of this, not to worry about itexpanding and just to look at it
as one kind of tip of the spearin Gaza, isn't it?
And I'm sorry for that being acomplicated question, but it's a
complicated problem right now.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spok (16:10):
So the nature of Israel, the IDF's
planning process for overseveral years now is that there
is never an isolated arena.
The understanding is that ifthere is one front, it's usually
going to be two or more so.
Indeed, when we at thebeginning of this war, when I
was recruited on the 7th, 8thand 9th of October and
(16:33):
colleagues like myself, we wererecruited on mass 300,000
reservists it's the largestrecruitment of reservists in the
history of the IDF and so manyof those have been
pre-positioned on the borderwith Lebanon to face and
(16:55):
confront Hezbollah, to combinewith the regular forces.
There's a substantial forcethere.
Many of those reservists areacross the different services,
so it's Air Force, naval Forces,ground Forces, home Front
Command.
We are prepared for aconfrontation also with
Hezbollah, also potentially fromSyria.
(17:16):
The aerial defensivecapabilities that have been
proven by over the last few days, with the surface to air
missile cruise missiles beingshot by the Houthis, have been
intercepted by F-35 jets andalso aerial defense systems like
the Arrow.
(17:36):
And so, yes, the workingassumption is that there is a
possibility that it will gobroader than just Hamas and our
focus will be shifted.
We are saying very clearly thatHezbollah needs to decide if
they represent Iran or representLebanon.
If they represent Iran, itmight be at the expense of
(17:57):
Lebanon.
And our message to Lebanon isvery clear Take charge of what
Hezbollah is doing, because youhave a lot to lose.
And our message to Hezbollah isalso look what we're doing to
Hamas, step by step, stage bystage, strike by strike, and
really think forward if you wantto cross that threshold.
Dana Lewis (18:16):
Lieutenant Colonel, last word to you, and you've
been very generous with yourtime.
Can we go back to where westarted?
On the hostages, I know you putup a tweet the other day
talking about how many are heldand the numbers have changed a
little bit.
But I just real, every time Isee the numbers of children and
(18:37):
the ages of some of thosechildren and we all hope that
they can somehow be released innegotiations with an
organization that's not veryfamous for caring about humanity
.
But can you just make yourfinal comment, just on those
hostages that are being held inthe efforts to try and get them
out while you fight a war, whileyou try not to harm them in the
(18:58):
process?
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF Spok (19:00):
So the hostages are a national
priority, to bring them home,and it's one of the missions of
this war is to bring them home.
Today, there are 241 hostagesbeing held, but that number goes
up and up and down.
Every day changes slightlybecause more intelligence is
coming out clarification thatsomebody was actually killed so
(19:20):
it's not being held hostage butmaybe dead body different levels
of understanding of what isgoing on as the dynamics of this
war develops.
We released, rescued onehostage, ory Magydish.
She was a soldier in theobservation posts, so gathering
(19:46):
field intelligence, and she wasabducted on the 7th of October.
And she was rescued in a heroicintelligence-based mission.
And we are utilizing all of thetools at our hand in order to
identify, seek out and find thehostages.
(20:07):
While there are operationalcomponents that are ongoing in
order to bring to the releaseand also the diplomatic efforts
that are also underway, hamasare responsible for their
well-being, as well as demandingthat the International
Committee of the Red Cross haveaccess to assess their situation
, their well-being.
As far as I know, that hasn'thappened yet.
(20:28):
They need to be brought home,they need to be let free, as you
said, babies from the age ofnine months old and elderly over
the age of in their late 80sand anybody in between men,
women, children.
It's heartbreaking, it'sdevastating and it is what Hamas
(20:49):
does.
So they need to be brought home.
They need to be brought homenow.
We are doing what we can inorder to bring them home.
Just one example we droppedleaflets in Gaza a few days ago
suggesting that there might befinancial benefits if you give
up information that brings totheir release home.
(21:10):
So we're utilizing all of thetools basically in the spectrum
of hostage situation, and that'sone of the core missions of
this war.
Dana Lewis (21:22):
Bring them home, Lieutenant Colonel Peter Lerner.
Thank you so much, sir.
Lt Col Peter Lerner/IDF S (21:27):
Thank you.
Dana Lewis (21:32):
Mustafa Bargouti is a Palestinian physician, an
activist, a politician.
He's been a member of thePalestinian Legislative Council
since 2006,.
Also a member of the PLOCentral Council.
Mr Bargouti, welcome, Thank you.
You know I've known you a longtime.
You may not remember me, butwith Canadian TV I used to
(21:53):
interview you, often in the 90sand after Am I mistaken?
Or when you were a doctor, youknow, I used to say are you
going to get involved with thePalestinian Authority?
And you used to say, no, I'm adoctor, I'm not a politician.
What happened?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinian (22:10):
I had to become a politician
because I couldn't change thehealth policies and health
system without changing thepolitical system.
And did you change it?
I think we are managing to havea greater influence.
Yes, and you know, I even I amnow convinced that we represent
(22:32):
a very important third line inPalestine, a democratic third
alternative which is notaffiliated neither to Fatah or
Hamas, and I think we have avery important future because
the Palestinian people want tosee this third democratic
alternative, the voice of what Icall sometimes the silent
majority.
Dana Lewis (22:53):
So tell me about what is that third line and what
does it represent for thesilent majority of Palestinians
who are not being, to a largedegree, not being heard right
now?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinia (23:07):
It means many things.
We founded a movement calledthe Palestinian National
Initiative with people likeHaidar Abdel Shafi and Dr Edward
Saeed and hundreds of otherPalestinian intellectuals and
political leaders, and it hasbecome the third force probably
in Palestine, and we are callingfor a combination of three
(23:29):
things Struggle to achievefreedom and ending occupation
and the system of apartheid thatIsrael is practicing against us
, but also we're calling forinternal democracy and the right
of the people to democraticallyelect their leaders, and the
separation of powers, theexecutive, judiciary and
legislative powers and all theaspects of true democracy.
(23:53):
But we don't mean onlypolitical democracy.
We also speak about socialdemocracy, and that's why a
third very important componentof what we do is the issue of
social justice, women's rights,rights of people with disability
, eliminating poverty, etc.
We've been calling fornonviolent resistance and we've
been leading while nonviolentresistance for a very long time,
(24:16):
and we've become probably themost unifying power in Palestine
, calling for national unity ofall Palestinians and the
creation of a unified leadershipon the basis of democratic
participation.
Dana Lewis (24:31):
Unified, nonviolent.
Where does that leave you?
With Hamas and Gaza.
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinia (24:38):
In dialogue with them and I think
we managed to convince them withthe value and power of
nonviolence, and they did stickto it for a very good period of
time.
The Israel continued, of course, their attacks with severe
violence and, of course, you seewhat's happening now.
But we are in dialogue withFatah, with Hamas, with
(24:59):
everybody, because we believethat what we need is really
national unity and a unifiedpolitical program and a unified
political struggle.
Thank you, thank you.
Dana Lewis (25:10):
Definitely something unified, because, with the
Palestinian Authority split nowsince 2006 with the elections in
Gaza and Hamas took over in2007.
I mean there's been basicparalysis of Palestinian
leadership.
Would you agree?
Mustafa Barghouti/Pales (25:26):
Totally , and the only solution to that
is free, democratic elections,and I think we've been calling
for democratic elections and wewere about to have them in 2021.
And we even met in Cairo allthe Palestinian political groups
14 of them.
We agreed on a whole scenarioof conducting elections.
We even agreed about how we canrun elections, even in
(25:50):
Jerusalem, which Israel isobstructing as an act of
nonviolent resistance, butunfortunately, the Palestinian
Authority and President Abbascancelled the elections and it
was clear that Israel isadamantly against elections, and
the United States of America,the great democratic country,
was not also supporting havingdemocratic, free elections in
(26:10):
Palestine, and we lost anopportunity.
We would not be in thissituation had we have elections
then, because elections wouldhave produced unified
Palestinian Legislative Counciland eventually, new presidential
elections, and we would haveended this situation of one
(26:31):
party rule in Gaza and one partyrule in West Bank, especially
that all the results of all thepolls at the time showed that no
single party, neither Fatah norHamas, can have absolute
majority, which meant we wouldhave had a truly democratic,
pluralistic system, and that'sexactly what I think
(26:51):
Palestinians need.
And now, when I hear theAmericans and Israelis speak
about a new leadership in Gaza.
I think this is a bighumiliation to the Palestinian
people and a big insult, becauseit's not Israel who should
decide who would lead us.
We need, the only way, is toensure that Gaza is not separate
(27:14):
from the West Bank, and what weneed is really a democratically
elected leadership that wouldlead the way to having a true
independent Palestinian state ora one democratic state.
Dana Lewis (27:29):
How can you resolve the fact that Hamas is dedicated
to eliminating Israel, hascarried out these atrocious acts
of violence inside Israel?
How do you surely you must feelthat they have to be removed?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestin (27:45):
Look , I don't agree or accept the
killing of any civilian or thatIsraeli or Palestinian, but at
this very moment, the people whoare being slaughtered at the
Palestinian civilians more than9100 of them so far and the
number keeps increasing.
Every five minutes we're losinga Palestinian, every 10 minutes
we lose a Palestinian child,and the Israeli air strikes
(28:07):
continue.
You cannot condemn the killingof Israeli civilians without
condemning the killing ofPalestinian civilians.
But Hamas, hamas is ready toaccept to state solution If
Israel is.
Hamas is ready for.
To state solution is if Israelis ready to accept a Palestinian
state in the West Bank, gazaStrip and East Jerusalem.
(28:30):
I think they've just repeatedthat by their own leader and
that was the program of theNational Unity Government, which
I mediated in 2007, which washeaded by the head of Hamas and
the deputy was therepresentative of FATA and I was
the only spokesperson of thatgovernment, which everybody
besieged till it collapsed inafter 86 days.
(28:54):
I think that all Palestinianswould accept to state solution,
but the one side that does notaccept that is Israel, and the
one side that blocked allpossibilities of negotiations is
Netanyahu and the man who cameto power under one slogan to
kill Oslo process and to killthe two state solution and to
(29:15):
kill the potential for anyPalestinian state was Benjamin
Netanyahu, and he's the one whoblocked all negotiations with
any Palestinians since 2014.
So, in reality, you cannotaccuse Palestinians of not
accepting to state solution whenIsrael has been the power that
has blocked that road and iskilling the two state solution
(29:36):
with all the settlements that isexpanding in the West Bank.
Dana Lewis (29:40):
I'm nodding my head because I agree with you, not
because I hear you, but becauseI believe that Netanyahu did
indeed take every opportunity hecould to kill the peace process
, even though, when he came topower after the assassination of
Yitzhak Rabin, he said that hecouldn't and wouldn't, but in
fact, at every step he hasopposed a two state solution.
(30:01):
What happened and I hate to askyou because you're not Israeli,
but you're a neighbor and youunderstand your partners in the
so-called Oslo Accords whathappened?
You speak about the silentmajority of Palestinians.
What do you think that happenedto the silent majority of
Israelis between the signing ofthe Oslo Accords and today, when
(30:23):
all they want really is revengeand removal of Hamas as a
threat in Gaza?
Where is the silent majoritythat supported peace?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestini (30:33):
Two things happened to that
majority.
They shifted to the extremeright and that is because they
felt they can keep occupationand keep exploiting our land and
our water and our workers at nocost.
But most Israelis don't want itanyway.
But most Israelis don't want it.
Dana Lewis (30:52):
I mean really most Israelis don't want to do their
army service in the West Bankand they don't.
I mean most Israelis don't goto the West Bank.
Most Israelis, the settlerfactions, yes, but mainstream
Israelis were willing to have atwo state solution.
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestin (31:08):
Yeah , but the majority of them
support the extreme right-wingparties.
That's why they are in power.
And there is another importantdevelopment one should not
forget about, which is thatbecause Oslo agreement included
a very big flow, and that is ofcourse the fault not only of the
Israelis and Americans, butalso of the Palestinian
(31:30):
leadership, because it allowedthe continuation of Israeli
settlement expansion.
The number of illegal settlersgrew from one one one hundred
twenty one thousand in nineteenninety three when Oslo agreement
was signed, to more than sevenhundred fifty thousand today.
These settlers became a hugepolitical power.
(31:50):
Now they have fourteen membersin the Israeli Knesset out of
one hundred twenty, and some ofthem are holding very vital
positions, like Smotrich, who isthe minister of finance and
also he's the minister of theWest Bank.
Being very is in charge ofinternal security.
(32:11):
Smotrich and being very, who areboth settlers, have been
advocating the elimination ofany Palestinian right in the on
the land of historic Palestine,and both of them both of them
have said Smotrich said that hewill fill the West Bank with
settlers and settlements so thatPalestinians would lose any
(32:33):
hope of a state of their own,and eventually they will have.
We will have one of threeoptions either to immigrate,
which is ethnic cleansing, oraccept a life of subjugation to
Israelis, which is apartheid, ordie, which is genocide, which
that they are conducting now inGaza.
So it's not just theresponsibility of these extreme
(32:55):
people in Israeli government,but also it is the
responsibility of the so-calledmoderates in Israel and they are
not moderates, in my opinion,like Labid and Gantz and the
Labor Party and others who votedfor the state national law of
Israel in the Israeli Knesset,which said that it's Israel,
(33:15):
meaning the land of historicPalestine, is a place where the
right of self determination isexclusive for Jewish people.
So the public in Israel shiftedto the extreme right, and
that's why I don't mean by thatonly the Likud, but all these
parties, even the religiousparties, who used to be sort of
(33:35):
moderate in their approach,changed and they're a decalized,
and that's what you see, thatthe result of that, what we see
today, how do you bring backthat portion of Israeli society
that probably would support atwo states solution?
Dana Lewis (33:51):
I mean, how is there while the bombs are falling in
Gaza?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palesti (33:56):
Maybe , maybe.
Dana Lewis (33:57):
And, by the way, while Israelis are kidnapped and
children are held by Hamas, isthere some hope left that
something positive comes fromthis?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestini (34:14):
Two things are happening.
First of all, I think everybodynow remembers that the issue of
Palestine is not only aboutoccupation but also about a fact
that we have been subjected toa settler colonial system and
that settler colonial system istrying to finish its job by
ethnically cleansing Gazacompletely.
They cannot do it up till nowbecause Egypt is standing up to
(34:37):
them and because Palestiniansrefuse to leave and become
refugees again.
But that's their planethnically cleansing of Gaza and
then gradual ethnicallycleansing of the West Bank.
They've already startedethnically cleansing of Area C
To 13 Palestinian communitieshave already been affected by
the terror of Israeli illegalsettlers.
(34:58):
So that's their plan.
But maybe, with all the horrorsthat are happening and all
these victims on both sides,maybe this will change the
formula in the sense of tellingthe Israeli public that there is
a cost of occupation, there isa cost of the system of
apartheid, there is a cost ofcontinuation with these dreams
(35:22):
of ethnically cleansing andother people.
There is a price they arepaying.
Dana Lewis (35:28):
Maybe this will bring many people to the
rational thinking that eitherway, it doesn't, because even
Rabin I don't think Rabin didthe peace process out of charity
.
I think that he said over andover again if we don't do this
now 30 years ago almost if wedon't do this now, israel will
(35:54):
face more extremism and moreviolence, and it will threaten
the state of Israel.
The Oslo peace accords were putforward, really as a life ring
to both sides, don't you think?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palesti (36:07):
Right and many Israeli leaders,
including, I think, houd Barakand Omar, said that Israel will
become an apartheid state ifthere is no Palestinian state.
That's for sure, but thereality is today Israel is
trying to solve the demographicproblem, which is that our
(36:28):
numbers now on the land ofhistoric Palestine as
Palestinians is equal, if not alittle bit larger a little bit
larger than the number ofIsraeli Jewish people,
regardless of the fact that 7million of us are refugees in
other countries.
So that put Israel in front ofa very big challenge either to
(36:49):
state solution immediately,which means removing the
settlements from the West Bank,or accept us as equal human
beings in one democratic state.
The Israeli fascists now in thegovernment are trying to solve
that formula in a different way,by ethnically cleansing
(37:09):
Palestinians in Gaza and maybelater in the West Bank.
Dana Lewis (37:13):
What is going on in the West Bank and I appreciate
your time and I know we'redrawing to a close here, but as
we speak, I mean a lot of peopledon't realize what's going on
in the West Bank.
We see what's happening in Gaza, but there's a lot of settler
movement and violence takingplace in the West Bank, right?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestini (37:30):
now , and I want the public to
understand that what happened inGaza was a result of what was
happening in the West Bank inthe first place.
History did not start on the7th of October.
Before that, israeli army andsettlers have killed 248
Palestinians in the West Bank,including 40 children.
(37:50):
They attacked Islamic andChristian holy places.
They spit at Christian clerksand worshipers.
They tried to change the natureof the most holy place for
Muslims, which is the AqsaMosque, and Netanyahu spread the
word everywhere that he's goingto normalize with Saudi Arabia
and all Arab countries andliquidate the Palestinian issue.
(38:11):
And he had the guts, two weeksbefore the war started in Gaza,
to stand up in the UnitedNations General Assembly and
show the map of Israel thatincluded the annexation of all
the West Bank and all of GazaStrip and all of the Golan
Heights, openly declaring thatin front of the whole world
community.
Of course, that led to areaction, which you see today.
(38:36):
But what they are doing now inthe West Bank is even horrible.
They've just they alreadykilled additional 132
Palestinians including it thatwere killed directly by Israeli
illegal settlers, and they arenow putting the whole West Bank
into clust.
They divided it into clustersof ghettos 224 ghettos separated
(38:56):
from each other by 650 militarycheckpoints, many of which are
closed.
They're attacking us everywhere, viciously, harassment
everywhere.
They already arrested 1,750more Palestinians, making the
number of prisoners in Israele-jails 7,000, including 200
(39:17):
children and more than 60 women,and more than 2,000 are under
the so-called administrativedetention, which means they are
in jail without knowing why,without charges, without due
legal process.
This was the reason why we hadwhat we have in Gaza, and the
two places are totally connected.
(39:37):
You cannot separate one fromthe other.
Dana Lewis (39:41):
But how do you assess Israel's main goal now,
its military goal, stated by theIDF and empowered by the
Israeli cabinet, to remove Hamasfrom the leadership of Gaza, to
replace Hamas?
Is there any of that realistic?
Mustafa Barghouti/Palestinia (40:00):
No , and they cannot eradicate
Hamas, because Hamas is not anarmy or an organization.
Only Hamas is an idea.
And even if they reoccupy Gazacompletely, this will not make
Hamas disappear.
And they left Gaza mainlybecause of the Palestinian
resistance in the first place.
And they didn't really withdrawfrom Gaza, they just redeployed
(40:23):
and today they are trying toethnically cleanse Gaza.
This is the real goal and ifthey fail, that means their
whole operation has failed andthey will come back to the same
thing.
I told you about either twostate solution or one democratic
state where we can coexist andlive together in equality.
(40:44):
There is no alternative to that, because we, the Palestinians,
we the Palestinians and I speakon behalf of everybody here we
will never accept to be slavesof a system of occupation or
apartheid, or accept to becomerefugees again.
Dana Lewis (41:00):
Mustafa Bargut, good to talk to you.
Thank you so much.
Thank you my pleasure In thatbackstory this week.
On British TV this Morning, aJew and a Muslim spoke about the
need to bury hatred, not toforce people to pick a side and
we are people first.
Attacks on civilians arenothing short of abhorrent and
to be condemned.
(41:21):
More talking betweenPalestinians and Israelis needs
to start occurring, led by theinternational community.
It's time for a major effort tosettle the Palestinian-Israeli
conflict, but first the Israelihostages need to be released.
Hamas needs to go.
Israel has a right to defenditself, but Netanyahu's
(41:41):
right-wing government also needsto disappear for the sake of
peace.
Thanks for listening toBackstory.
I'm Dana Lewis and I'll talk toyou again soon.
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