November 26, 2020 • 30 mins
Many experts don't think Corona virus started in The Wuhan Market.
Some think it was a virus that escaped from a lab in Wuhan run now by the military.
Others think it had "natural" origins but broke out months before the end of 2019.
And. we need those answers to understand where the next pandemic could start, as well as the increased dangers of a biological attack.
On this Back Story Dana Lewis talks to Former Deputy Sec. of Defense Andy Weber, and virus hunter Dr. Daniel Lucey.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ex Pres. trump (00:00):
The virus that we're talking about having to
do, you know, a lot of peoplethink that goes away in April
with the heat as the heat comesin.
Typically that will go away inApril.
I've spoken to a president Xi,they're getting it more and more
under control.
So, uh, I think that's aproblem.
That's going to go away when youhave 15 people.
And the 15 within a couple ofdays is going to be down to
(00:22):
close to zero.
Uh, that's a pretty good job.
We've done.
It's going to disappear one day.
It's like a miracle.
It will disappear.
And from our shores, we've, youknow, it could get worse before
it gets better.
Could maybe go away.
We'll see what happens.
You have to become, it'll goaway.
It will go away.
You stay calm and we'll go away.
We need a little separationuntil such time.
(00:43):
As this goes away, it's going togo away.
It's going to go away.
It will go away.
You know, w you know, it isgoing away.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
The number of new infections has risen to nearly
70,000 per day.
The highest rate since lateJuly, we're in a really
dangerous point.
And unfortunately, we're here,partly because of our own making
nationwide millions of Americansare suffering from pandemic
fatigue, tired of masks, socialdistancing, homeschooling, and
(01:10):
working from home tonight andall out battle against a
surgeon, virus, teams of airforce nurses deployed to
overwhelmed hospitals in NorthDakota, in El Paso, the national
guard, helping out in morgues,running out of space.
The chances are that you willsee a surge super imposed upon a
(01:32):
surge.
Dana Lewis (01:33):
We've heard the projections, the projections are
that if nothing fundamentallychanges between now and, uh,
beginning of February, we're up,we're likely to lose up to 400
total of 400,000 lives, another150,000 lives.
And, uh, so it's real.
Dana Lewis - Host Back Story (01:55):
Hi everyone.
And welcome to backstoryreporting from London.
I'm Dana Lewis.
As I speak to you at the end ofNovember, 2020, according to
John Hopkins, university ofmedicine, worldwide, 60 million,
465,000 people have caughtcoronavirus more than 1 million,
422,000 people have died.
(02:18):
Economies around the world havebeen shut down.
Hospitals overwhelmed.
So many families have lost lovedones.
Now you would think by now weknow exactly where this start,
how did it begin?
Was it a bath in a market inWuhan China?
You may be surprised to knowthat as unlikely.
Now, the market part, was it alaboratory maybe?
(02:44):
Was it because scientists wereexperimenting with the virus,
something called gain offunction?
Many people think so.
Did the Chinese know about thisbefore December 31st, 2019 when
the world health reported It?
No doubt was the first deathreported by China really on
(03:04):
January 11th.
No, you were about to hear anincredibly enlightening
interview with two experts.
One of them who knows aboutmilitarized biological programs
past and future threats andlessons.
We better learn from this andanother, a virus Hunter of
sorts, an expert on pandemicoutbreaks.
(03:26):
The interviews left me with morequestions than answers, and I'm
sure that will be the same foryou, but sometimes that's where
you need to go to begin tounderstand and cut through some
of the misinformation.
What are the origins of COVID-19on this backstory?
(03:49):
All right.
I want to introduce you first ofall, to Andy Weber, who is in,
uh, in Washington, he's a formerassistant secretary of defense
for chemical, biological andnuclear defense programs.
And he is now at the center forstrategic risks.
Hi and welcome.
Hi Dana.
Thank you.
And dr.
Daniel Lucy also in Washingtonis a senior scholar with the
O'Neill Institute for nationaland global health law.
(04:12):
He is also an adjunct professorof medicine, infectious diseases
at Georgetown, uh, and an experton outbreaks and pandemics.
Daniel.
Thanks for doing this.
Dr. Daniel Lucey (04:21):
My pleasure.
Thank you.
So,
Dana Lewis - Host Back Story (04:23):
I mean, we have some good news
today, just to start off with,uh, here in the UK, while I
speak to you from London, thatwe have another vaccine, uh, you
know, that was developed withOxford university in addition to
Pfizer.
And Moderna, uh, are we about tocome out of this dark tunnel?
Daniel?
Can I start with you?
Dr. Daniel Lucey (04:39):
I hope so.
I hope so, but it's a long tripuntil we reached the end of the
tunnel for our countries, the UKfor us, but certainly a longer
tunnel for much of thedeveloping world.
Andy Weber - CSR (04:54):
Yeah, I agree.
Well, first of all, here in theU S I mean, we're at peak rates,
deaths are, I've never beenhigher.
Uh, so it's, it's hard to seethe light at the end of the
tunnel.
We need to redouble our effortsto use proven methods like
wearing masks and closing barsand, uh, you know, staying six
feet apart because we know thatworks and we need to bend the
(05:17):
curve down here, but having avaccine available for the first,
for the healthcare workers, thefirst line defenders against
this pandemic will be amazing.
And I'm told that that could beas early as, uh, as, uh,
December
Dana Lewis (05:32):
Dr.
Lucy.
I was, I was watching aninterview that you did in
January, uh, when this allstarted and you said, you, we,
we should be concerned, but notoverly frightened.
Should we in fact have beenquite frightened because we're
now at 1.4 million deaths andclimbing,
Dr. Daniel Lucey (05:49):
I think we should always be frightened.
Every applique I've gone to, uh,I'm very frightened myself.
Uh, when I worked with manypatients with Ebola in 2014,
Syria in Liberia, often when Idid interviews, I said, aren't
you afraid?
I said, of course, I'm afraid ifI'm not afraid I shouldn't be
here.
So I'd say, eh, of all thoseinterviews in January of, if I
said, uh, we shouldn't be overlyfrightened.
I agree.
(06:09):
They shouldn't, you should neverbe overly frightened because
that paralyzed that's paramedicfear.
We need catalytic fear.
So yes, you should always befrightened.
Um, yes, we should have beenmore, more catalytic fear.
We should have taken many moreactions in January than, than we
did.
Dana Lewis (06:27):
What do we know now?
I mean, we, we know that one ofthe first patients, um, has been
traced back to November the17th, 2019.
So we are almost year on, youknow, a year into this.
Do we know where COVID-19 began?
And do we know how it began,Andy, do you want to take a
first run at that?
Andy Weber - CSR (06:48):
Sure.
I mean, the, the sad news is no,we don't know the answer to
that.
And that is a critical question.
Um, I'm not convinced theChinese know the answer to that,
but they have not been verycooperative in working with the
international community to getto that answer.
Um, you know, there aredifferent series of how it
(07:09):
started, but, uh, we should beable to determine the origin of
this virus, if we're going to besuccessful in preventing the
next one.
Dana Lewis (07:18):
Why are the Chinese not being cooperative?
I mean, why have they not comeclean?
What are they, are they hidingsomething?
Dr. Daniel Lucey (07:24):
So this was very controversial.
I pursued it from the verybeginning in terms of origin,
since there, the night ofDecember the 30th, when I first
saw the report, uh, from theophthalmology physician who, uh,
was one of the first eightwhistle blowers, uh, dr.
Lee who died on February thesixth, I believe seventh.
And trying to, um, so first Iwould say that, um, I think to
(07:46):
some extent the attorneys havebeen cooperative, so that's not,
uh, the mainstream of view herein the, in the United States.
But I think that, uh,particularly their, uh,
healthcare providers, uh, havebeen in were early in January,
uh, cooperative in terms oftrying to get the truth out to
the world as best they could,including those first eight
(08:06):
healthcare workers, including dr.
Lee who died.
Um, and, uh, who was brought inthe police office in December,
uh, after he said, well, thereseem to be contagious, starts
like pneumonia.
Uh, but there are a number ofvery, very important, uh, uh,
publications, actually quite afew from the mainland and from
Hong Kong, uh, early on, uh,about what was going on, uh, in
(08:28):
terms of the earliest cases.
Uh, and I've mentioned two inparticular, January 24th, a
Friday in Atlanta, uh, based inthe UK, as you know, and then
that the new internal medicine,the following Wednesday, January
the 29th, those are the pointsof departure that I mentioned,
but there are other publicationsas well, subsequently, including
by the China's CDC in Beijing,in the Chinese CDC, weekly
(08:50):
publication, which is like the US CDC, uh, morbidity and
mortality mortality.
Dana Lewis (08:56):
And why, why is that relevant?
Sorry.
Dr. Daniel Lucey (08:58):
Yeah, it's relevant because, uh, there's
specific, uh, data that'spresented in all of those
references that I justmentioned, mentioned as well as
quite a few others, uh, thatI've tracked and written about
repeatedly on the infectiousdisease society of America
science speaks website aboutinitial cases and the, um,
church for the origins search,meaning in humans and animals
(09:20):
and in the environment.
So I think there is objectivedata and most recently, and I
think most importantly, uh, isthe, uh, publication on the who
website this month, the firstweek of this month, around the
fifth or 6th of November, uh,what's called the terms of
reference for the who China andjoint mission.
(09:42):
The second one to go, uh, tosearch for the origins, uh, of
the, of the, um, of the virus.
And it's now the date here onthis document is 31, July, 2020.
It only came out this monthbecause the terms of reference
for this investigation had to beagreed upon by China, uh, as
(10:04):
well as who and,
Dana Lewis (10:06):
And where, where does that lead us?
I mean, it was a delay in termsof reference because the Chinese
didn't want to go somewhere.
Dr. Daniel Lucey (10:12):
They certainly didn't say that in a document,
but, uh, uh, to my view, um,they provide information here
and this documents nine pages onpage five in particular, that
hasn't appeared anywhere elsebefore.
And it's in my view, animportant incremental addition
of objective data, at leastaccording to China, um, that,
(10:35):
that we haven't had before.
And so I created a timeline ofwhat we've learned in when we've
learned it, uh, going back to,to, to end of December early
January.
But this document says, forexample, what I think is
important, um, most important isthat there were 124 laboratory
confirmed human cases of SARScoronavirus to causing COVID-19
(10:59):
in the month of December and ofthose 124, 119 were in move-on,
but five were not.
And move on.
They said they were in Hubeiprovince, you know, where we'll
have the capital and, and, andelsewhere, but they don't say
where elsewhere.
So the important point is 124cases.
That's many more in Decemberthan we ever, uh, heard about
(11:20):
from China previously inJanuary.
They said in the last
Dana Lewis (11:25):
It does.
And if I could just jump in, itdoesn't seem like a lot of cases
to me as a layman, uh,considering how many cases we
have now, but you obviously feelthat that was a significant
number that should have beenreported worldwide immediately.
Dr. Daniel Lucey (11:41):
I'd emphasize that it was December, December
15th.
There were these 124 laboratorycases, confirmed cases in who
buy products.
Most of them move on.
What they don't say is how manywere there in November, because
you mentioned it's been reportedby Josephine ma her byline in
the South China morning, postand mid mid-March that she saw
an unpublished government, areport of an investigation of
(12:02):
the outbreak that said that theearliest known case, probably
not the first, but the earliestknown was November 17th.
And that there was one to fivecases every day after that in
November, and then quite a fewmore in December.
So I think that in fact, theorigins go back quite some time,
many months, perhaps more than ayear.
Um, and the reason I say that inis because the first we heard of
(12:27):
this virus, everyone agrees onthis.
Uh, as far as I can tell, uh, itwas already fully adapted to our
species, to humans, to be ableto be transmitted from person to
person, uh, through the air andperhaps other ways, but through
the air very, very efficiently.
And that, to me means it wasimpossible if it was naturally
(12:48):
occurring to have begun inDecember in that seafood market
in move-on not possible.
Dana Lewis (12:54):
All right, Daniel, let me just bring in Andy here,
Andy.
Thanks for being patient.
That certainly leads us down,you know, as a reporter that
just tells me that the Chinesegovernment was covering up, um,
and raises, uh, in, in huge, uh,capital letters that the Wu Han
market probably wasn't thesource.
(13:15):
Where do you line up on it?
Andy?
Andy Weber - CSR (13:19):
I don't think we have, uh, any, uh, any proof
that the market was the sourceof, uh, the original source of
this virus.
Um, a lot of the evidence andthe samples that were taken at
the market apparently have beendestroyed.
What dr.
Lucy says is very important.
Um, indeed if this startedmonths before December, um, in
(13:41):
humans and, and, and how did,how did it accelerate so quickly
and spread so efficiently?
Um, you know, these areimportant questions.
Now we do know that for example,local officials in, uh, in
[inaudible] were not forthcomingwith the central government in
Beijing initially.
(14:02):
Uh, they sort of had a knee-jerkreaction of trying to cover up
the outbreak and its severity.
Um, that's unfortunate, but itwill take a lot of scientific
effort and I'd be interested,uh, where dr.
Lucy is today on the, on the,you know, theoretical origin of,
of this particular outbreak.
(14:24):
Uh, what does he think was theoriginal source?
You're going to ask him
Dr. Daniel Lucey (14:30):
Dan, so I'll try to stay[inaudible] first.
Let me just say, I disagree alittle bit with, uh, on the one
hand that, that, that, that thelocal officials had covered up
the events, uh, and then theBeijing officials didn't know
them.
I think Beijing knew everythingfrom the beginning December, and
(14:52):
I think there's a paper trailthat can, that can support that.
I realized that otherdistinguished people, as well as
the NDA and others feel toootherwise if there was a cover
up, but for me there wasn't, uh,but as far as the question, the
MD, uh, as well at first, also Iagree with Andy a hundred
percent, there's thissupermarket, it was never the
source of the epidemic.
(15:12):
And I, and I wrote that onSaturday, January the 25th on
the infectious disease, Saturdaymedical website, it was picked
up by science magazine, JohnCohen.
He sent it out Sunday night,January the 26th to ninth, stay
around the world.
Um, that the market was probablynot the source and subsequently
on May 23rd, one day after thebeginning of the very important
two sessions.
And you will two sessions inChina in Beijing this year, uh,
(15:35):
delayed because of COVID, uh,uh, director general of the
China CDC in Beijing, GeorgeGoogle golf, who said the market
was not the source.
It was just another victim.
So let me stop there and thentry to answer Andy's question.
Uh, w w what was the, what wasthe source of the epidemic?
I think clearly, I don't know.
We don't know.
I have strong opinions and I'mstill trying to gather data.
Dana Lewis (16:00):
I, I don't want to cut you off because your, your,
your answer is so important, butI can see you're, you're not
coming straight out and sayingwhat you say that the main, like
a detective, uh, you know, onthe murder case, you're not
saying who the main suspect is,but I think can we just come to
it?
It seems to be that there'sgrowing consensus and has been
for some time that did it.
(16:20):
It was the Wu Han laboratory.
You agree with that?
And that they may have beendoing something called gain of
function.
Will you, will you address that?
Both of you?
No, go ahead.
Dr. Daniel Lucey (16:37):
Oh, yeah.
Just, just nudge me off thecliff.
Okay.
So first of all, I don't agreeDana that, uh, the, uh, that the
evidence is, uh, going towardsit, that the source was the, uh,
uh, uh, laboratory either theInstitute of virology, uh, uh,
headed by a sham Lee, she, or bythe, by the, the local CDC lab,
(16:59):
uh, which was close to themarket closer than the Wolf hunt
Institute.
I don't think so.
There's been a lot of, uh, talkabout that and, uh, certainly
very high ranking people in theU S government, uh, have said
that there's enormous evidenceand quote that that was the
case, but they haven't presentedit.
I haven't seen it.
I don't believe it.
I believe
Dana Lewis (17:16):
That the source, what do you think it was?
Dr. Daniel Lucey (17:19):
So I think it was a naturally occurring, uh,
pandemic, a naturally occurring,uh, uh, outbreak where somebody
came the epidemic, the panepidemic, and now the
devastating economic and publichealth, uh, uh, pandemic, uh,
the worst in the, you know, ahundred, 101 years, I mean, two
years.
So I think it was naturallycurrent.
And that's why I think it beganmany months earlier than
(17:40):
December, because it takes manymonths for a virus to fully
adapt to our species and a virusthat presumably comes from an
animal or more than one animalto infect
Dana Lewis (17:50):
Our species.
You mentioned become highlycontagious through the air.
It sounds very innocent than onyour part, any D do you, do you
also discount the Wu Han lab andgain of function experiments?
No, I don't.
Andy Weber - CSR (18:06):
Yeah.
And dr.
Lucy has studied this deeply,and I'm very interested in his
view on this, but, um, in 2016,uh, scientists from the Ruan
Institute of virology, um,published a work they had done
the prior year on so-called gainof function, experiments.
Dana Lewis (18:26):
You explain, gain a function where you talk about
it, because most people don'tknow what they are
Andy Weber - CSR (18:30):
On coronavirus .
It's essentially, um, working inthe laboratory, um, often with
animals to try to, uh, evolvethe virus.
So it transmits more easilybetween animals in order to, in
theory, to be able to prevent aspillover event from animals to
(18:54):
humans.
Personally, think that the risksof doing this type of research,
um, far outweigh any potentialbenefit.
Dana Lewis (19:05):
What makes you think it was gained a function before
I go back over to dr.
Lucy?
Andy Weber - CSR (19:10):
Well, it's one of those data points that we
don't have.
I mean, were they continuing todo this type of gain of function
work beyond 2015?
I don't know.
Um, I don't know the answer tothat.
I think it's one of thequestions that, uh, is fairly
easy to answer as well as, youknow, what type of animals were
(19:33):
they using in the laboratory, etcetera.
But I also don't quiteunderstand what, what exactly is
meant by naturally occurring.
Um, you know, I'm not sayingthat this was a genetically
engineered by a weapon.
I think that has been totallydiscounted, but they could use
(19:53):
natural methods of evolving itfrom generation to generation in
animals, uh, doing what theywould consider legitimate public
health research.
I mean, the, the us nationalinstitutes of health that Tony
Fauci runs is currently fundinggain of function research in the
(20:14):
Netherlands and elsewhere that'son, on the flu virus, the risk
of, of creating, uh, a super fluand then having it escape from a
laboratory, either through aworker getting infected and
taking it home, um, or a releaseinto the environment, I think
far outweighs the medicalbenefit of conducting this type
of research.
Dana Lewis (20:35):
It was, it was banned in the U S and in 2014
and then?
Andy Weber - CSR (20:39):
Hello.
There was a, there was amoratorium on this type of
research.
Um, after the, uh, the Dutchscientist was attempting to
publish a paper purporting tohave made, uh, the highly
pathogenic avian influenza virus, uh, more easily transmissible,
uh, in an experiment withferrets.
(21:02):
Um, but that moratorium waslifted.
Um, I believe in 2017.
So such research continues to befunded by the United States
government.
And I, I just think it's anunjustifiable, uh, risk.
Dana Lewis (21:17):
Oh, Lucy, could you answer Andy's question as to,
you know, he's not sure what youmeant by natural, um, and why,
why do you think it wasn't gainof function potentially,
Dr. Daniel Lucey (21:29):
But by natural, I mean, the same as for
SARS severe acute respiratorysyndrome from China, one
province in the Southeast wherethe first case was thought to be
November the 16th, 2002, theninto 2003, as we know, or the
middle East respiratory syndromecoronavirus pneumonia that, uh,
was first, uh, foundretrospectively in a, in a
(21:49):
hospital, in as dr.
Jordan and April of 2012, andthen subsequently mostly in
Saudi Arabia.
Uh, so most viruses, uh, NIPAvirus, Bola they're, they're
naturally occurring.
They come from an animal speciesto human species for the most
part.
Um, what do you have youmentioned about the experiments
with a bird flu called age fiveand one, uh, that's that's
(22:12):
different to me, uh, it wasoriginally called Julius
research of concern, but asbasically a gain of function, it
means that the virus H five None, in this case gained the
function of being able to spreadthrough the air from Farah to
ferret, which are mammals.
So by implication, it couldspread through the air between
humans, but I'd like toemphasize that the United States
(22:34):
has done a lot of documentedpublic information, publicly
available information, uh, uh,gain a function like research as
well.
Uh, we've I think probably justmade more made it public, uh,
more so than other countries,but I'd say very importantly, it
wasn't only the Dutch at Erasmusmedical center in Rotterdam, but
it was the Americans, the dr.
[inaudible] lab in the UnitedStates that also did in parallel
(22:57):
at the same time and publishedat the same time in premier
journals, science and natures,uh, in 2012, this, uh, basically
a gain of function research forH five, then one being able to
be spread from fair to fair inthe laboratory.
We w we did it, the Dutch didit.
They were both funded by the U Suh, NIH, dr.
Fowchee Institute, the nationalInstitute of allergy and
(23:18):
infectious disease.
Uh, let me just stop there.
Dana Lewis (23:22):
All right.
So I appreciate both of you havelimited time here.
So I just want to try to come towhere we are now, and that is
Andy.
Look, you have a tremendousbackground, more than people
understand in terms of trying tostop biological weapons, along
with chemical, along withnuclear attacks, you've just
(23:43):
recently written a editorialalong with Christine parts of
more in the LA times where yousaid biological attacks are now
more appealing than ever thatthe lesson coming out of this,
which I would have thought wouldbe, you know, biological
experimentation gain of functionprobably is lost on rogue
(24:06):
governments and terroristorganizations, which may now see
biological weapons, uh, assomething that they could
introduce, uh, understanding,uh, how they've crippled
economies and, and killed tensof thousands of people.
You have a real concern,whatever the final, uh, trail is
on how this virus started, uh,that it puts us in a much more
(24:29):
dangerous place.
Andy Weber - CSR (24:32):
Oh, absolutely.
And in our, uh, LA times piece,we spell this out, but basically
our adversaries can watch, uh,the fumbling response that the
United States has had to thisbiological event.
And, and imagine if it had beena, uh, a bio-engineered weapon,
uh, with 30% mortality, insteadof two to 3% mortality, it could
(24:57):
be much, much worse than whatwe're experiencing now, but our
response has been so fumbling,I'm concerned that we send the
message of, of, uh,vulnerability and that those who
would wish to do us harm willsee that as an opportunity to
pursue the deliberate use ofbiological weapons against us.
(25:18):
So that's the, uh, that's thechilling effect, but on the
positive side, uh, our response,especially the scientific and
medical response has acceleratedmodern, uh, really, uh, game
changing technologies for earlywarning and detection and, uh,
(25:40):
medical countermeasurestherapeutics, vaccines that are
now being proven for the firsttime in humans that will make us
much better prepared to preventor nip in the bud the next
potential pandemic
Dana Lewis (25:54):
Biden administration.
Um, do you think, and I know youhave some input there, will they
overhaul, uh, and dramaticallychange the America's ability to
have enhanced preparedness asyou, as you termed it in that
editorial?
Andy Weber - CSR (26:11):
Oh, absolutely.
That's something that we at thecouncil on strategic risks are
advising, um, that the nextadministration, the Biden
administration, uh, increasedthe resourcing and level of
effort and public privatepartnerships to really create a
system of robust pandemicprevention, early warning and
(26:35):
rapid counter measures.
So we can make this the lastpandemic and in the process
significantly reduced the threatof, uh, biological weapons,
Dana Lewis (26:44):
Specifically, dr.
Lucy, thanks for being patientthere.
The last word to you, sir,
Dr. Daniel Lucey (26:49):
What I'd like to say is very sobering, which
is that since March of this year, uh, after I'd gone to
Shanghai, to Hong Kong, to Cairofor COVID-19, I began to have
the sense that something else iscoming or something else that's
already here.
And that's what I've beenlooking for.
Ever since that time, I hope I'mwrong, but I think that is the
operational day-to-day, uh,leaning forward focus that, that
(27:14):
, that I take.
And I hope, uh, uh, others take,in other words, what's next is
already here, but we justhaven't recognized it yet.
And that's my driving philosophyafter many years of going to
many epidemics every yearoverseas, since 2003.
Uh, and it's, it's the it's,what's on the wall.
The final section of theSmithsonian museum of natural
(27:34):
history here in DC, there's alarge, uh, exhibit on epidemics,
viral epidemics that come fromanimals.
I proposed it in 2014 and Iworked on it and it opened 2018
till 2022.
Now we're going to have asection on COVID.
Uh, it's, it's what I believewith my heart, heart, and soul.
And it's, it's how I'm going topursue the rest of my career.
I really think that something isout there and we need to find it
(27:55):
and act much better than we didwith regard to SARS coronavirus,
to just stop it from becoming apandemic it's already out there.
Dana Lewis (28:04):
You don't have evidence that something is out
there, but the, the reasonableexpectation is it's just a
matter of time till the next onecomes along.
Dr. Daniel Lucey (28:14):
Okay.
Yes.
If I had evidence, I would, Iwould share it with the MD and
you and everybody else, but I'veactually physically gone to
places looking for it.
And the past couple of months,as well as, you know, internet
through friends around theworld, et cetera, I haven't
found it.
I hope it doesn't exist, but Ibelieve that it does.
And the attitude we should haveanother virus.
Oh, it could be a virus.
(28:34):
It could be a bacteria.
It could be a prion.
It could be some, some otherpathogen.
Yes.
I'm thinking in terms ofinfectious diseases.
Dana Lewis (28:42):
And have you seen evidence of an infectious
disease after COVID-19 anotherone?
Dr. Daniel Lucey (28:48):
Well, they're, they're occurring all around the
world.
There is one particular one thatI went to search for.
I didn't find it, but the weekafter I left, it was found, but
it was not, it was a very smallnumber of people.
It wasn't an outbreak.
So as long as it doesn't causean outbreak fine.
Um, but if anything, it justreinforced my sense of this is
what we should be doing, or atleast what I should be doing
(29:09):
actively looking, includinggoing on the ground.
Dana Lewis (29:13):
Thank you for explaining that to dr.
Daniel, Lucy from Georgetown andAndy Weber, the former assistant
secretary for defense, forchemical, biological, and
biological and nuclear defenseprograms.
Thank you so much.
Both of you.
Thank you.
Dana world health organization,officials see an international
(29:35):
team of scientists will betraveling again to China in due
time to continue aninvestigation
Speaker 4 (29:42):
Into the origins of the Corona virus that causes
COVID-19 a team was there overthe summer discussing which
studies had to take place forthe Chinese government, the who
officials said, they lookforward to making progress on
the investigation, not only intoanimal origins of the virus, but
(30:02):
also into how the virus can jumpfrom speeding.
The species.
The real question is quote, theorigin species barrier.
Where did that occur?
And that is still unknown, saidan official.
I would suggest we read betweenthe lines and investigation.
That's happening very slowly,very late.
(30:23):
And one wonders.
If the Chinese government willallow investigators to really
uncover everything about howthis virus appeared and where
I'm Dana Lewis.
Thanks for listening tobackstory, please subscribe and
share this podcast.
And if you'd like to be asponsor, drop us a line.
I'll talk to you again soon.
Speaker 7 (30:47):
[inaudible].
The virus that we're talking about having to
do, you know, a lot of peoplethink that goes away in April
with the heat as the heat comesin.
Typically that will go away inApril.
I've spoken to a president Xi,they're getting it more and more
under control.
So, uh, I think that's aproblem.
That's going to go away when youhave 15 people.
And the 15 within a couple ofdays is going to be down to
(00:22):
close to zero.
Uh, that's a pretty good job.
We've done.
It's going to disappear one day.
It's like a miracle.
It will disappear.
And from our shores, we've, youknow, it could get worse before
it gets better.
Could maybe go away.
We'll see what happens.
You have to become, it'll goaway.
It will go away.
You stay calm and we'll go away.
We need a little separationuntil such time.
(00:43):
As this goes away, it's going togo away.
It's going to go away.
It will go away.
You know, w you know, it isgoing away.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
The number of new infections has risen to nearly
70,000 per day.
The highest rate since lateJuly, we're in a really
dangerous point.
And unfortunately, we're here,partly because of our own making
nationwide millions of Americansare suffering from pandemic
fatigue, tired of masks, socialdistancing, homeschooling, and
(01:10):
working from home tonight andall out battle against a
surgeon, virus, teams of airforce nurses deployed to
overwhelmed hospitals in NorthDakota, in El Paso, the national
guard, helping out in morgues,running out of space.
The chances are that you willsee a surge super imposed upon a
(01:32):
surge.
Dana Lewis (01:33):
We've heard the projections, the projections are
that if nothing fundamentallychanges between now and, uh,
beginning of February, we're up,we're likely to lose up to 400
total of 400,000 lives, another150,000 lives.
And, uh, so it's real.
Dana Lewis - Host Back Story (01:55):
Hi everyone.
And welcome to backstoryreporting from London.
I'm Dana Lewis.
As I speak to you at the end ofNovember, 2020, according to
John Hopkins, university ofmedicine, worldwide, 60 million,
465,000 people have caughtcoronavirus more than 1 million,
422,000 people have died.
(02:18):
Economies around the world havebeen shut down.
Hospitals overwhelmed.
So many families have lost lovedones.
Now you would think by now weknow exactly where this start,
how did it begin?
Was it a bath in a market inWuhan China?
You may be surprised to knowthat as unlikely.
Now, the market part, was it alaboratory maybe?
(02:44):
Was it because scientists wereexperimenting with the virus,
something called gain offunction?
Many people think so.
Did the Chinese know about thisbefore December 31st, 2019 when
the world health reported It?
No doubt was the first deathreported by China really on
(03:04):
January 11th.
No, you were about to hear anincredibly enlightening
interview with two experts.
One of them who knows aboutmilitarized biological programs
past and future threats andlessons.
We better learn from this andanother, a virus Hunter of
sorts, an expert on pandemicoutbreaks.
(03:26):
The interviews left me with morequestions than answers, and I'm
sure that will be the same foryou, but sometimes that's where
you need to go to begin tounderstand and cut through some
of the misinformation.
What are the origins of COVID-19on this backstory?
(03:49):
All right.
I want to introduce you first ofall, to Andy Weber, who is in,
uh, in Washington, he's a formerassistant secretary of defense
for chemical, biological andnuclear defense programs.
And he is now at the center forstrategic risks.
Hi and welcome.
Hi Dana.
Thank you.
And dr.
Daniel Lucy also in Washingtonis a senior scholar with the
O'Neill Institute for nationaland global health law.
(04:12):
He is also an adjunct professorof medicine, infectious diseases
at Georgetown, uh, and an experton outbreaks and pandemics.
Daniel.
Thanks for doing this.
Dr. Daniel Lucey (04:21):
My pleasure.
Thank you.
So,
Dana Lewis - Host Back Story (04:23):
I mean, we have some good news
today, just to start off with,uh, here in the UK, while I
speak to you from London, thatwe have another vaccine, uh, you
know, that was developed withOxford university in addition to
Pfizer.
And Moderna, uh, are we about tocome out of this dark tunnel?
Daniel?
Can I start with you?
Dr. Daniel Lucey (04:39):
I hope so.
I hope so, but it's a long tripuntil we reached the end of the
tunnel for our countries, the UKfor us, but certainly a longer
tunnel for much of thedeveloping world.
Andy Weber - CSR (04:54):
Yeah, I agree.
Well, first of all, here in theU S I mean, we're at peak rates,
deaths are, I've never beenhigher.
Uh, so it's, it's hard to seethe light at the end of the
tunnel.
We need to redouble our effortsto use proven methods like
wearing masks and closing barsand, uh, you know, staying six
feet apart because we know thatworks and we need to bend the
(05:17):
curve down here, but having avaccine available for the first,
for the healthcare workers, thefirst line defenders against
this pandemic will be amazing.
And I'm told that that could beas early as, uh, as, uh,
December
Dana Lewis (05:32):
Dr.
Lucy.
I was, I was watching aninterview that you did in
January, uh, when this allstarted and you said, you, we,
we should be concerned, but notoverly frightened.
Should we in fact have beenquite frightened because we're
now at 1.4 million deaths andclimbing,
Dr. Daniel Lucey (05:49):
I think we should always be frightened.
Every applique I've gone to, uh,I'm very frightened myself.
Uh, when I worked with manypatients with Ebola in 2014,
Syria in Liberia, often when Idid interviews, I said, aren't
you afraid?
I said, of course, I'm afraid ifI'm not afraid I shouldn't be
here.
So I'd say, eh, of all thoseinterviews in January of, if I
said, uh, we shouldn't be overlyfrightened.
I agree.
(06:09):
They shouldn't, you should neverbe overly frightened because
that paralyzed that's paramedicfear.
We need catalytic fear.
So yes, you should always befrightened.
Um, yes, we should have beenmore, more catalytic fear.
We should have taken many moreactions in January than, than we
did.
Dana Lewis (06:27):
What do we know now?
I mean, we, we know that one ofthe first patients, um, has been
traced back to November the17th, 2019.
So we are almost year on, youknow, a year into this.
Do we know where COVID-19 began?
And do we know how it began,Andy, do you want to take a
first run at that?
Andy Weber - CSR (06:48):
Sure.
I mean, the, the sad news is no,we don't know the answer to
that.
And that is a critical question.
Um, I'm not convinced theChinese know the answer to that,
but they have not been verycooperative in working with the
international community to getto that answer.
Um, you know, there aredifferent series of how it
(07:09):
started, but, uh, we should beable to determine the origin of
this virus, if we're going to besuccessful in preventing the
next one.
Dana Lewis (07:18):
Why are the Chinese not being cooperative?
I mean, why have they not comeclean?
What are they, are they hidingsomething?
Dr. Daniel Lucey (07:24):
So this was very controversial.
I pursued it from the verybeginning in terms of origin,
since there, the night ofDecember the 30th, when I first
saw the report, uh, from theophthalmology physician who, uh,
was one of the first eightwhistle blowers, uh, dr.
Lee who died on February thesixth, I believe seventh.
And trying to, um, so first Iwould say that, um, I think to
(07:46):
some extent the attorneys havebeen cooperative, so that's not,
uh, the mainstream of view herein the, in the United States.
But I think that, uh,particularly their, uh,
healthcare providers, uh, havebeen in were early in January,
uh, cooperative in terms oftrying to get the truth out to
the world as best they could,including those first eight
(08:06):
healthcare workers, including dr.
Lee who died.
Um, and, uh, who was brought inthe police office in December,
uh, after he said, well, thereseem to be contagious, starts
like pneumonia.
Uh, but there are a number ofvery, very important, uh, uh,
publications, actually quite afew from the mainland and from
Hong Kong, uh, early on, uh,about what was going on, uh, in
(08:28):
terms of the earliest cases.
Uh, and I've mentioned two inparticular, January 24th, a
Friday in Atlanta, uh, based inthe UK, as you know, and then
that the new internal medicine,the following Wednesday, January
the 29th, those are the pointsof departure that I mentioned,
but there are other publicationsas well, subsequently, including
by the China's CDC in Beijing,in the Chinese CDC, weekly
(08:50):
publication, which is like the US CDC, uh, morbidity and
mortality mortality.
Dana Lewis (08:56):
And why, why is that relevant?
Sorry.
Dr. Daniel Lucey (08:58):
Yeah, it's relevant because, uh, there's
specific, uh, data that'spresented in all of those
references that I justmentioned, mentioned as well as
quite a few others, uh, thatI've tracked and written about
repeatedly on the infectiousdisease society of America
science speaks website aboutinitial cases and the, um,
church for the origins search,meaning in humans and animals
(09:20):
and in the environment.
So I think there is objectivedata and most recently, and I
think most importantly, uh, isthe, uh, publication on the who
website this month, the firstweek of this month, around the
fifth or 6th of November, uh,what's called the terms of
reference for the who China andjoint mission.
(09:42):
The second one to go, uh, tosearch for the origins, uh, of
the, of the, um, of the virus.
And it's now the date here onthis document is 31, July, 2020.
It only came out this monthbecause the terms of reference
for this investigation had to beagreed upon by China, uh, as
(10:04):
well as who and,
Dana Lewis (10:06):
And where, where does that lead us?
I mean, it was a delay in termsof reference because the Chinese
didn't want to go somewhere.
Dr. Daniel Lucey (10:12):
They certainly didn't say that in a document,
but, uh, uh, to my view, um,they provide information here
and this documents nine pages onpage five in particular, that
hasn't appeared anywhere elsebefore.
And it's in my view, animportant incremental addition
of objective data, at leastaccording to China, um, that,
(10:35):
that we haven't had before.
And so I created a timeline ofwhat we've learned in when we've
learned it, uh, going back to,to, to end of December early
January.
But this document says, forexample, what I think is
important, um, most important isthat there were 124 laboratory
confirmed human cases of SARScoronavirus to causing COVID-19
(10:59):
in the month of December and ofthose 124, 119 were in move-on,
but five were not.
And move on.
They said they were in Hubeiprovince, you know, where we'll
have the capital and, and, andelsewhere, but they don't say
where elsewhere.
So the important point is 124cases.
That's many more in Decemberthan we ever, uh, heard about
(11:20):
from China previously inJanuary.
They said in the last
Dana Lewis (11:25):
It does.
And if I could just jump in, itdoesn't seem like a lot of cases
to me as a layman, uh,considering how many cases we
have now, but you obviously feelthat that was a significant
number that should have beenreported worldwide immediately.
Dr. Daniel Lucey (11:41):
I'd emphasize that it was December, December
15th.
There were these 124 laboratorycases, confirmed cases in who
buy products.
Most of them move on.
What they don't say is how manywere there in November, because
you mentioned it's been reportedby Josephine ma her byline in
the South China morning, postand mid mid-March that she saw
an unpublished government, areport of an investigation of
(12:02):
the outbreak that said that theearliest known case, probably
not the first, but the earliestknown was November 17th.
And that there was one to fivecases every day after that in
November, and then quite a fewmore in December.
So I think that in fact, theorigins go back quite some time,
many months, perhaps more than ayear.
Um, and the reason I say that inis because the first we heard of
(12:27):
this virus, everyone agrees onthis.
Uh, as far as I can tell, uh, itwas already fully adapted to our
species, to humans, to be ableto be transmitted from person to
person, uh, through the air andperhaps other ways, but through
the air very, very efficiently.
And that, to me means it wasimpossible if it was naturally
(12:48):
occurring to have begun inDecember in that seafood market
in move-on not possible.
Dana Lewis (12:54):
All right, Daniel, let me just bring in Andy here,
Andy.
Thanks for being patient.
That certainly leads us down,you know, as a reporter that
just tells me that the Chinesegovernment was covering up, um,
and raises, uh, in, in huge, uh,capital letters that the Wu Han
market probably wasn't thesource.
(13:15):
Where do you line up on it?
Andy?
Andy Weber - CSR (13:19):
I don't think we have, uh, any, uh, any proof
that the market was the sourceof, uh, the original source of
this virus.
Um, a lot of the evidence andthe samples that were taken at
the market apparently have beendestroyed.
What dr.
Lucy says is very important.
Um, indeed if this startedmonths before December, um, in
(13:41):
humans and, and, and how did,how did it accelerate so quickly
and spread so efficiently?
Um, you know, these areimportant questions.
Now we do know that for example,local officials in, uh, in
[inaudible] were not forthcomingwith the central government in
Beijing initially.
(14:02):
Uh, they sort of had a knee-jerkreaction of trying to cover up
the outbreak and its severity.
Um, that's unfortunate, but itwill take a lot of scientific
effort and I'd be interested,uh, where dr.
Lucy is today on the, on the,you know, theoretical origin of,
of this particular outbreak.
(14:24):
Uh, what does he think was theoriginal source?
You're going to ask him
Dr. Daniel Lucey (14:30):
Dan, so I'll try to stay[inaudible] first.
Let me just say, I disagree alittle bit with, uh, on the one
hand that, that, that, that thelocal officials had covered up
the events, uh, and then theBeijing officials didn't know
them.
I think Beijing knew everythingfrom the beginning December, and
(14:52):
I think there's a paper trailthat can, that can support that.
I realized that otherdistinguished people, as well as
the NDA and others feel toootherwise if there was a cover
up, but for me there wasn't, uh,but as far as the question, the
MD, uh, as well at first, also Iagree with Andy a hundred
percent, there's thissupermarket, it was never the
source of the epidemic.
(15:12):
And I, and I wrote that onSaturday, January the 25th on
the infectious disease, Saturdaymedical website, it was picked
up by science magazine, JohnCohen.
He sent it out Sunday night,January the 26th to ninth, stay
around the world.
Um, that the market was probablynot the source and subsequently
on May 23rd, one day after thebeginning of the very important
two sessions.
And you will two sessions inChina in Beijing this year, uh,
(15:35):
delayed because of COVID, uh,uh, director general of the
China CDC in Beijing, GeorgeGoogle golf, who said the market
was not the source.
It was just another victim.
So let me stop there and thentry to answer Andy's question.
Uh, w w what was the, what wasthe source of the epidemic?
I think clearly, I don't know.
We don't know.
I have strong opinions and I'mstill trying to gather data.
Dana Lewis (16:00):
I, I don't want to cut you off because your, your,
your answer is so important, butI can see you're, you're not
coming straight out and sayingwhat you say that the main, like
a detective, uh, you know, onthe murder case, you're not
saying who the main suspect is,but I think can we just come to
it?
It seems to be that there'sgrowing consensus and has been
for some time that did it.
(16:20):
It was the Wu Han laboratory.
You agree with that?
And that they may have beendoing something called gain of
function.
Will you, will you address that?
Both of you?
No, go ahead.
Dr. Daniel Lucey (16:37):
Oh, yeah.
Just, just nudge me off thecliff.
Okay.
So first of all, I don't agreeDana that, uh, the, uh, that the
evidence is, uh, going towardsit, that the source was the, uh,
uh, uh, laboratory either theInstitute of virology, uh, uh,
headed by a sham Lee, she, or bythe, by the, the local CDC lab,
(16:59):
uh, which was close to themarket closer than the Wolf hunt
Institute.
I don't think so.
There's been a lot of, uh, talkabout that and, uh, certainly
very high ranking people in theU S government, uh, have said
that there's enormous evidenceand quote that that was the
case, but they haven't presentedit.
I haven't seen it.
I don't believe it.
I believe
Dana Lewis (17:16):
That the source, what do you think it was?
Dr. Daniel Lucey (17:19):
So I think it was a naturally occurring, uh,
pandemic, a naturally occurring,uh, uh, outbreak where somebody
came the epidemic, the panepidemic, and now the
devastating economic and publichealth, uh, uh, pandemic, uh,
the worst in the, you know, ahundred, 101 years, I mean, two
years.
So I think it was naturallycurrent.
And that's why I think it beganmany months earlier than
(17:40):
December, because it takes manymonths for a virus to fully
adapt to our species and a virusthat presumably comes from an
animal or more than one animalto infect
Dana Lewis (17:50):
Our species.
You mentioned become highlycontagious through the air.
It sounds very innocent than onyour part, any D do you, do you
also discount the Wu Han lab andgain of function experiments?
No, I don't.
Andy Weber - CSR (18:06):
Yeah.
And dr.
Lucy has studied this deeply,and I'm very interested in his
view on this, but, um, in 2016,uh, scientists from the Ruan
Institute of virology, um,published a work they had done
the prior year on so-called gainof function, experiments.
Dana Lewis (18:26):
You explain, gain a function where you talk about
it, because most people don'tknow what they are
Andy Weber - CSR (18:30):
On coronavirus .
It's essentially, um, working inthe laboratory, um, often with
animals to try to, uh, evolvethe virus.
So it transmits more easilybetween animals in order to, in
theory, to be able to prevent aspillover event from animals to
(18:54):
humans.
Personally, think that the risksof doing this type of research,
um, far outweigh any potentialbenefit.
Dana Lewis (19:05):
What makes you think it was gained a function before
I go back over to dr.
Lucy?
Andy Weber - CSR (19:10):
Well, it's one of those data points that we
don't have.
I mean, were they continuing todo this type of gain of function
work beyond 2015?
I don't know.
Um, I don't know the answer tothat.
I think it's one of thequestions that, uh, is fairly
easy to answer as well as, youknow, what type of animals were
(19:33):
they using in the laboratory, etcetera.
But I also don't quiteunderstand what, what exactly is
meant by naturally occurring.
Um, you know, I'm not sayingthat this was a genetically
engineered by a weapon.
I think that has been totallydiscounted, but they could use
(19:53):
natural methods of evolving itfrom generation to generation in
animals, uh, doing what theywould consider legitimate public
health research.
I mean, the, the us nationalinstitutes of health that Tony
Fauci runs is currently fundinggain of function research in the
(20:14):
Netherlands and elsewhere that'son, on the flu virus, the risk
of, of creating, uh, a super fluand then having it escape from a
laboratory, either through aworker getting infected and
taking it home, um, or a releaseinto the environment, I think
far outweighs the medicalbenefit of conducting this type
of research.
Dana Lewis (20:35):
It was, it was banned in the U S and in 2014
and then?
Andy Weber - CSR (20:39):
Hello.
There was a, there was amoratorium on this type of
research.
Um, after the, uh, the Dutchscientist was attempting to
publish a paper purporting tohave made, uh, the highly
pathogenic avian influenza virus, uh, more easily transmissible,
uh, in an experiment withferrets.
(21:02):
Um, but that moratorium waslifted.
Um, I believe in 2017.
So such research continues to befunded by the United States
government.
And I, I just think it's anunjustifiable, uh, risk.
Dana Lewis (21:17):
Oh, Lucy, could you answer Andy's question as to,
you know, he's not sure what youmeant by natural, um, and why,
why do you think it wasn't gainof function potentially,
Dr. Daniel Lucey (21:29):
But by natural, I mean, the same as for
SARS severe acute respiratorysyndrome from China, one
province in the Southeast wherethe first case was thought to be
November the 16th, 2002, theninto 2003, as we know, or the
middle East respiratory syndromecoronavirus pneumonia that, uh,
was first, uh, foundretrospectively in a, in a
(21:49):
hospital, in as dr.
Jordan and April of 2012, andthen subsequently mostly in
Saudi Arabia.
Uh, so most viruses, uh, NIPAvirus, Bola they're, they're
naturally occurring.
They come from an animal speciesto human species for the most
part.
Um, what do you have youmentioned about the experiments
with a bird flu called age fiveand one, uh, that's that's
(22:12):
different to me, uh, it wasoriginally called Julius
research of concern, but asbasically a gain of function, it
means that the virus H five None, in this case gained the
function of being able to spreadthrough the air from Farah to
ferret, which are mammals.
So by implication, it couldspread through the air between
humans, but I'd like toemphasize that the United States
(22:34):
has done a lot of documentedpublic information, publicly
available information, uh, uh,gain a function like research as
well.
Uh, we've I think probably justmade more made it public, uh,
more so than other countries,but I'd say very importantly, it
wasn't only the Dutch at Erasmusmedical center in Rotterdam, but
it was the Americans, the dr.
[inaudible] lab in the UnitedStates that also did in parallel
(22:57):
at the same time and publishedat the same time in premier
journals, science and natures,uh, in 2012, this, uh, basically
a gain of function research forH five, then one being able to
be spread from fair to fair inthe laboratory.
We w we did it, the Dutch didit.
They were both funded by the U Suh, NIH, dr.
Fowchee Institute, the nationalInstitute of allergy and
(23:18):
infectious disease.
Uh, let me just stop there.
Dana Lewis (23:22):
All right.
So I appreciate both of you havelimited time here.
So I just want to try to come towhere we are now, and that is
Andy.
Look, you have a tremendousbackground, more than people
understand in terms of trying tostop biological weapons, along
with chemical, along withnuclear attacks, you've just
(23:43):
recently written a editorialalong with Christine parts of
more in the LA times where yousaid biological attacks are now
more appealing than ever thatthe lesson coming out of this,
which I would have thought wouldbe, you know, biological
experimentation gain of functionprobably is lost on rogue
(24:06):
governments and terroristorganizations, which may now see
biological weapons, uh, assomething that they could
introduce, uh, understanding,uh, how they've crippled
economies and, and killed tensof thousands of people.
You have a real concern,whatever the final, uh, trail is
on how this virus started, uh,that it puts us in a much more
(24:29):
dangerous place.
Andy Weber - CSR (24:32):
Oh, absolutely.
And in our, uh, LA times piece,we spell this out, but basically
our adversaries can watch, uh,the fumbling response that the
United States has had to thisbiological event.
And, and imagine if it had beena, uh, a bio-engineered weapon,
uh, with 30% mortality, insteadof two to 3% mortality, it could
(24:57):
be much, much worse than whatwe're experiencing now, but our
response has been so fumbling,I'm concerned that we send the
message of, of, uh,vulnerability and that those who
would wish to do us harm willsee that as an opportunity to
pursue the deliberate use ofbiological weapons against us.
(25:18):
So that's the, uh, that's thechilling effect, but on the
positive side, uh, our response,especially the scientific and
medical response has acceleratedmodern, uh, really, uh, game
changing technologies for earlywarning and detection and, uh,
(25:40):
medical countermeasurestherapeutics, vaccines that are
now being proven for the firsttime in humans that will make us
much better prepared to preventor nip in the bud the next
potential pandemic
Dana Lewis (25:54):
Biden administration.
Um, do you think, and I know youhave some input there, will they
overhaul, uh, and dramaticallychange the America's ability to
have enhanced preparedness asyou, as you termed it in that
editorial?
Andy Weber - CSR (26:11):
Oh, absolutely.
That's something that we at thecouncil on strategic risks are
advising, um, that the nextadministration, the Biden
administration, uh, increasedthe resourcing and level of
effort and public privatepartnerships to really create a
system of robust pandemicprevention, early warning and
(26:35):
rapid counter measures.
So we can make this the lastpandemic and in the process
significantly reduced the threatof, uh, biological weapons,
Dana Lewis (26:44):
Specifically, dr.
Lucy, thanks for being patientthere.
The last word to you, sir,
Dr. Daniel Lucey (26:49):
What I'd like to say is very sobering, which
is that since March of this year, uh, after I'd gone to
Shanghai, to Hong Kong, to Cairofor COVID-19, I began to have
the sense that something else iscoming or something else that's
already here.
And that's what I've beenlooking for.
Ever since that time, I hope I'mwrong, but I think that is the
operational day-to-day, uh,leaning forward focus that, that
(27:14):
, that I take.
And I hope, uh, uh, others take,in other words, what's next is
already here, but we justhaven't recognized it yet.
And that's my driving philosophyafter many years of going to
many epidemics every yearoverseas, since 2003.
Uh, and it's, it's the it's,what's on the wall.
The final section of theSmithsonian museum of natural
(27:34):
history here in DC, there's alarge, uh, exhibit on epidemics,
viral epidemics that come fromanimals.
I proposed it in 2014 and Iworked on it and it opened 2018
till 2022.
Now we're going to have asection on COVID.
Uh, it's, it's what I believewith my heart, heart, and soul.
And it's, it's how I'm going topursue the rest of my career.
I really think that something isout there and we need to find it
(27:55):
and act much better than we didwith regard to SARS coronavirus,
to just stop it from becoming apandemic it's already out there.
Dana Lewis (28:04):
You don't have evidence that something is out
there, but the, the reasonableexpectation is it's just a
matter of time till the next onecomes along.
Dr. Daniel Lucey (28:14):
Okay.
Yes.
If I had evidence, I would, Iwould share it with the MD and
you and everybody else, but I'veactually physically gone to
places looking for it.
And the past couple of months,as well as, you know, internet
through friends around theworld, et cetera, I haven't
found it.
I hope it doesn't exist, but Ibelieve that it does.
And the attitude we should haveanother virus.
Oh, it could be a virus.
(28:34):
It could be a bacteria.
It could be a prion.
It could be some, some otherpathogen.
Yes.
I'm thinking in terms ofinfectious diseases.
Dana Lewis (28:42):
And have you seen evidence of an infectious
disease after COVID-19 anotherone?
Dr. Daniel Lucey (28:48):
Well, they're, they're occurring all around the
world.
There is one particular one thatI went to search for.
I didn't find it, but the weekafter I left, it was found, but
it was not, it was a very smallnumber of people.
It wasn't an outbreak.
So as long as it doesn't causean outbreak fine.
Um, but if anything, it justreinforced my sense of this is
what we should be doing, or atleast what I should be doing
(29:09):
actively looking, includinggoing on the ground.
Dana Lewis (29:13):
Thank you for explaining that to dr.
Daniel, Lucy from Georgetown andAndy Weber, the former assistant
secretary for defense, forchemical, biological, and
biological and nuclear defenseprograms.
Thank you so much.
Both of you.
Thank you.
Dana world health organization,officials see an international
(29:35):
team of scientists will betraveling again to China in due
time to continue aninvestigation
Speaker 4 (29:42):
Into the origins of the Corona virus that causes
COVID-19 a team was there overthe summer discussing which
studies had to take place forthe Chinese government, the who
officials said, they lookforward to making progress on
the investigation, not only intoanimal origins of the virus, but
(30:02):
also into how the virus can jumpfrom speeding.
The species.
The real question is quote, theorigin species barrier.
Where did that occur?
And that is still unknown, saidan official.
I would suggest we read betweenthe lines and investigation.
That's happening very slowly,very late.
(30:23):
And one wonders.
If the Chinese government willallow investigators to really
uncover everything about howthis virus appeared and where
I'm Dana Lewis.
Thanks for listening tobackstory, please subscribe and
share this podcast.
And if you'd like to be asponsor, drop us a line.
I'll talk to you again soon.
Speaker 7 (30:47):
[inaudible].
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