January 24, 2021 • 26 mins
It has started. Civil unrest linked to corruption in The Kremlin, and Putin's jailing of opposition leader Alexei Navalny has combined to ignite protests nation wide. On Saturday Jan 23 there were protests in more than 60 cities from the far east of Russia to St. Petersburg and Moscow. Police fought with demonstrators leading to the arrests of more than 2000 people who are demanding the release of Navalny and chanted "Putin out".
On This Back Story, Bill Browder whose lawyer Sergei Magnitsky was killed in prison in Russia, the same prison where Navalny is now being kept.
And, a journalist, Aleysa Marohovskaya who was beaten in Moscow at the demonstration by police. Aleysa works for iStories media, one of many independent internet news companies Putin can't control.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
First of all, I would say that this is just the
beginning of, of a Russianprotest movement from, from what
I can see, uh, that the Putinhas been stealing from the
Russian people for 20 years,Alexia Navalny has been the
leading voice, challengingPutin's theft and Putin has
massively, um, overplayed hishand in a way that he's now
(00:23):
created, um, made Navalny into aNelson Mandela like character.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hi everyone.
This is Dana Lewis and welcometo backstory this edition on
Russia unrest.
It started when the Kremlindecided to take out the main
opposition leader, AlexeiNavalny with Nova Chuck nerve
agent in August Novell, kneeunexpectedly survived
fast-forward to late JanuaryNevada returned home.
(00:57):
He's arrested at the airport infront of the world's media and
sentenced on old.
He says fabricated fraud chargesand his parole, which conditions
mandated his reporting to prisonauthorities routinely.
But how do you do that?
If you're lying in a Germanhospital, close to death from
nerve agent poisoning.
(01:17):
Anyway, Navon these videosshowing president Putin's
corruption are deeplyembarrassing.
And one of them giving a tour ofPutin's billion dollar palace
near the black sea has ignitedunrest.
Millions of people have seen thevideo millions more watched
Navon these arrest, and theyanswered his call to go to the
(01:38):
street January 23rd and expresstheir anger tens of thousands of
protesters across 11 timeszones, 2000 people arrested
brawls with police fromVladivostok in the far East to
big cities, includingNovosibirsk ear Coots St
Petersburg and Moscow, 60 citiesin all on this backstory, the
(02:01):
dangerous work of being ajournalist in Russia.
And should there be moresanctions to pressure Putin to
release Navalny who prosecutorsnow want to jail for 13 years,
the unrest has just started inRussia.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
All right, joining me now is bill Browder, who is the
CEO of Hermitage capitalmanagement.
And bill has a long, longhistory, uh, in Russia.
And in fact, uh, tragically, hislawyer at one point was jailed
and died in a Russian prisonbill.
There are some scary parallelswith what, what happened to Mr.
Magnitsky and what's happeningnow to Nevada.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So Sergei Magnitsky was my lawyer.
He uncovered, uh, a massivecorruption scheme and he was
taken to prison, uh, inretaliation for uncovering it
and slowly tortured and killedin prison on November 16, 2009,
11 years ago, that prison is[inaudible] prison, which is
translator translated intosailor's silence prison.
(03:08):
And that's the same prison thatAlexei Navalny is sitting in
today.
Another anti-corruption activist, um, and another thorn in the
side of Lennon Rakuten,
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Let, let's talk about what's happening in Russia right
now.
I mean, there are demonstrationsacross some 60 cities
unprecedented, what we've seentoday.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Well, the first of all, I would say that this is
just the beginning of, of aRussian protest movement from,
from what I can see.
Uh, the Putin has been stealingfrom the Russian people for 20
years.
Alexia Navalny has been theleading voice, challenging
Putin's theft and Putin hasmassively, um, overplayed his
(03:51):
hand in a way that he's nowcreated, um, made Navalny into a
Nelson Mandela like character.
He provided, he provided him aninternational platform by, by,
um, poisoning him with, uh, with, uh, chemical weapons and, and
not succeeding and killing him.
And so the entire Western worldis now fully aware of, of
(04:12):
Alexian of Olney, and then Putinsealed his own fate by
threatening Navalny with arrestof, he returned to Russia,
hoping that Navalny was stayout.
But in fact, Navalny, um, uh,has risen to the challenge.
And by showing that he's neitherafraid of poison or prison, uh,
(04:33):
he's put Putin in a terribleposition because he's shown
himself to be stronger thanPutin could ever be.
And he's, he's made himself avery attractive figure for, for
young Russians all over thecountry.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
The Valley was poisoned with Nova chalk, a
nerve agent, which no doubt washeld by Russian authorities
because you don't buy it just atany drug store.
I mean, this is an illegallyproduced, um, uh, nerve agent,
which under, by the way, Russiais a signature to the, to the
ban on chemical, biologicalweapon production.
But so they violated that they,they no doubt.
(05:10):
And you and I spoke before, um,this is not some rogue operation
by the FSB, the federal securityservice, because to poison
somebody as high profile asNevani within the country,
surely it had Putin's consent.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
No, no, no, no, they wouldn't.
It wasn't, it's not like theysaid, Hey boss, can we have
permission to do this?
This is Putin's directive knownobody touches Navalny, nor did
they touch Boris Nimsoft, um,who was murdered in front of,
uh, another opposition figurewho was murdered in front of the
Kremlin.
I mean, there've been so manypeople who have challenged
(05:45):
Putin's legitimacy who have beenkilled.
Um, it's, uh, you know, the listgoes on and on and on Putin is a
, um, a murderous, uh, sort of,you know, kind of a serial
killer if you will.
And, um, he needs to be stopped.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
All right.
I mean, a lot of people woulddoubt what you were saying a
year ago.
Um, but suddenly I think this isdifferent now inside Russia,
because this has spread likewildfire on social media.
There are tens of millions ofviews of the arrest of Nevada,
(06:24):
the case of Nevada, the G thejailing of Nevada County, and
then his corruption video, uh,which he put out, which
basically accuses Putin of, ofbeing a little more than, you
know, a gang land, um, mafia,state, uh, controller who was
pocketed hundreds of millions,if not billions of dollars and
(06:48):
built this incredible palacenear the black sea.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah.
The movie is incredible.
Um, it's, I I'm, I'm a, um,expert on Putin's corruption.
I've studied it for the last 15years, but even as an expert, I
learned a lot of new things inthe movie and, and it really
makes your blood boil to seethis, to see the, the, the, the
extent of the luxury and thelavishness that Putin, um, has
(07:15):
as given to himself at theexpense of the Russian people.
You know, the average Russiancan't even get medicine in a
hospital.
And Putin has a, um, you know,vineyards and, and underground
parking garages and undergroundskating rinks and, and unbelief
arbitrary items, and just allsorts of crazy stuff at this, at
(07:37):
this, um, this palace that'slike 60 times the land is 60
times the size of Monaco.
It's just, it's just disgusting.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Yeah.
Don't forget the, uh, poledancing disco.
And, and I might add that someof the protesters were carrying
these brushes that you cleantoilets with today, because
apparently, you know, thebrushes in that mansion were
purchased for something like$800each.
(08:07):
So they were carrying them as asymbol of corruption.
So, so bill look, what ismotivating the demonstrations?
Is it, is it just Nevada Countyor is it tough economic times w
with a pandemic, basically thesuspension of democracy there,
the extension of Putin termuntil 2036, potentially there
(08:31):
just a lot of things feedinginto this now creating a perfect
storm.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Well, ma mainly is, I mean, Putin has been ripping off
the Russian people for, for thelast 20 years.
The main, the main thing thatthat's, um, that's fueling this
is, is there the, the attemptedassassination of Alexei Navalny,
his arrest, and then Alexafinally, um, uh, calling people
to go out into the streetsspecifically to free him.
And that then the enough isenough.
(08:57):
And the Putin took a step toofar in this case.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Do you think this is going to end quickly?
Or do you think this is thebeginning because they have
already called for moredemonstrations next week?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Uh, this is, this is going to be like Belarus, and
it's gonna, it's gonna morepeople when people see that, see
what happened this week, morepeople will come out next week
and that's Putin's worstnightmare.
Sure.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
He'd be releasing Nevani now to put the fire out
or are we,
Speaker 1 (09:22):
There's no way he can do that.
You cannot in Russia, it's likea prison yard.
You can't show weakness.
He put in his now a prisoner tohis own actions at this point.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Why did they stupidly arrest him when he arrived back?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
They had no choice when they threatened him with
arrest to try to keep him away.
Um, they th that, that was themoment that, that they made.
That was their big mistakebecause by having him come back,
they could not arrest him, butby arresting him, they'd set
off, they've lived the fuse onthis situation, which is
spinning out of control forthem.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Will you just look down the road and tell me how
you think that this, how thisunfolds now, how the future goes
now in Russia?
Because a lot of people havealways said, if there's a spark,
uh, Russia can burn, uh, interms of people reaching their
end of patients with Putin andthe Kremlin, do you think this
is,
Speaker 1 (10:14):
You know, I don't know, Alexian of only doesn't
know, and Vladimir Putin doesn'tknow it it's it's, anything
could happen.
How many, you know, what are theRussian people do?
What does the internationalcommunity do?
What does Putin do?
It's all very uncertain.
It's a totally dynamicsituation.
Um, uh, but, but what I can sayis that, um, this is a mess of
(10:35):
Putin's own making.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Last question.
What should the internationalcommunity do?
Because we talked aboutsanctions before.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
It's very clear for the last 10 years.
Um, I I've been advocating for alaw called the Magnitsky act
named after my lawyer, SergeiMagnitsky, who was murdered in
Russian prison, Magnitsky act,imposes, visa, sanctions, and
asset freezes on human rights,violators Alexia, Navalny, um,
was one of the, um, uh, manyRussian, uh, figures who
(11:02):
supported the Magnitsky actalong with Mikhail Khodorkovsky
and another, uh, Russianopposition figure, Gary
Kasparov, or a Samsung ledAmerican or Mirza.
All the major Russian oppositionhave realized this is the tool
to be used.
And this is the tool now, whichshould be used 31 countries have
the Magnitsky act, and it shouldbe applied to the billionaire
bankers and enablers of VladimirPutin who are funding his regime
(11:26):
and allowing him to do thisterrible stuff real broader.
Thanks.
Good to talk to you.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
All right.
Joining me now from Moscow isAlicia Mara whole sky.
Hi Alysia.
Hi, Dana.
You're a journalist working forice stories.
Media.
Yeah, that's correct.
So what is I stories mediabefore we talk about what
happened on the street?
I mean, it seems that there's,there's now a lot of independent
digital media that's out there.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Uh, I used use media, it's kind of new media in
Russia.
It's new project.
Uh, it was founded by a reallyfamous in Russia, investigative
reporters, like, uh, Roman[inaudible], uh, and the Roman
history Knauf.
Uh, there are, uh, made somegreat investigations.
There was part of team who wasworking on banana papers,
(12:22):
paradise papers, and, uh,stories, uh, like that, uh,
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Panama was a very, a very hot topic on money
laundering and secret accountsoverseas.
But so essentially media inRussia has been controlled
traditionally by the Kremlin.
When you take a look at themainstream television channels,
the main newspapers, there hasbeen very little room for, um,
(12:48):
opposition or neutral media.
That's not controlled.
How do you stay under the radarand, uh, and report without
being controlled?
Speaker 4 (13:01):
So it's our choice, uh, to be, uh, uh, small and
independent media in Russia, uh,because, uh, as you said, we
couldn't, uh, be, uh,professional journalism on the
other medias.
So we just choose this way.
And, uh, that's why we are ininternet.
(13:23):
Uh, and, uh, here gremlin, uh,could not control everything.
Uh, so we have a YouTubechannel, our sides and, uh, some
space in social media and wejust doing our job, uh, and, uh,
sometimes, uh, it's, it's kindof dangerous, but, uh, I think
(13:43):
that every investigativereporter in Russia, uh, realized
that, uh, she or he hasopportunity to be jailed, uh,
beaten or something like that.
But, uh, it's, you know, it's akind of, it's, it's part of our
job in Russia and, uh, we areready to face some problem from
(14:05):
authorities.
So it's like, uh, our normallife.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Are they trying to control digital media?
Speaker 4 (14:14):
Uh, you mean our media?
Yeah, no,
Speaker 3 (14:17):
They're not trying to control it because they're
trying to control the internetnow because they understand that
so many people are getting theirnews from the internet.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
They couldn't do it because we use the social media
in South America.
So if you want control us, youneed to control, uh, Facebook,
uh, telegram or YouTube.
So it's, uh, it's, it's hard todo it.
So they couldn't, they, uh, theymade some lows, uh, for example,
the last one is, uh, againstpeople who, uh, texting
(14:54):
something in social media, forexample, or, uh, insights, uh,
and, uh, have, uh, for infinitystation.
So you, uh, became a foreignagent, uh, and, uh, you have to
pay
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Kind of how we know how that law goes in Russia,
because anybody that doesn'tagree with the Kremlin will be
accused of being a foreignagent, even if they're not.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Yeah, yeah.
For this purpose service law wasme.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Tell me about these demonstrations.
You were in the middle of theseyesterday.
Were you at the, uh, Pushkinplushy where you at Pushkin
square?
What happened there and what,and how did you come to be
attacked by the police though?
Speaker 4 (15:35):
Uh, it was a peaceful form of protest, Gil, just, uh,
students, shoulders slogans, andhow boasters in support of
Alexander Valley, who was jailed, uh, illegally, uh, or against
corruption.
So, and, uh, even before heshall start affection, police
officer began to detain people,uh, in the square.
(15:57):
People just were stained.
People just choose to berespond.
They took them.
And, uh, sometimes, uh, uh, ifany of the protesters refused to
go along with the police, theywent, the officers took him by
force.
They could beat them, uh, andsometimes, uh, such on gum
(16:18):
detentions force, everyone elseto fight back with the police.
Uh, and, uh, it was like localstrikes.
So I was working there, uh, likejournalists and I was fuming, uh
, uh, some single beating ofpeople.
And, uh, uh, I was from one sideand I didn't see how another
(16:41):
group of police and protestorswas back in me.
And, uh, I think that policemenjust probably didn't see that I
was a journalist and he puttwice in the back and the neck
with the, uh, his, uh, arm, uh,and, uh, I had a beach with a
breast guard, but I think hedidn't see it.
So he just decided it was, uh,just protesters and try to keep
(17:05):
me where you hurt.
Of course it was hurt when youjust felt it's, it's very, it's
very hard, but now I'm okay.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Tell me how unprecedented this is in Russia.
I mean, this is not about a rusewhere we've seen rolling
demonstrations week by week byweek, since the election in the
summer.
It is not very often.
We see these huge crowds inRussia taking to the streets and
just not in one city, but Imean, dozens and dozens of
cities yesterday, it wasunbelievable.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Yeah.
But, uh, if you want to compare,[inaudible], uh, kind of
different protests, uh, because,uh, in the Russia, people was
fighting against the police.
So, but, uh, tomorrow, uh,yesterday I was, I was, um, uh,
I was seeing how people fightback with police and, uh, it was
(17:59):
a kind of unusual scene becausein Russia, you know, uh, it's,
it's very scared, so fight withpolice because they have no,
they can beat you very, veryhard.
So, and I saw, uh, substance,then people try my back and it
was really, really scared, but,uh, I think it's, uh, not enough
(18:22):
to compare, uh, Russia withRussia.
So we more peaceful in this formof protest.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Well, not so peaceful in some of the scenes in St.
Petersburg and other places, butwhat, what is happening?
Why are people angry?
Why are people really motivated?
Because it takes a lot.
I mean, I was based in Russiafor over a decade.
It takes a lot to get Russiansto go to the street like they
did.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
I think, uh, people really, really tight, uh,
because of corruption, uh,because, uh, 4g can make, can
make everything with everyperson in this country.
And, uh, you, uh, kind of knowyou, you can feel, uh, that
you're in safe in this countryand you have to do something
(19:14):
because an extended one is veryfamous people, not only in
Russia, but in the world, but,uh, by the way, he in jail, he
in jail right now.
And, uh, uh, he not safe.
And I think people wayunderstood that they're gonna
say too, and they have to dosomething.
(19:34):
Yes.
Uh, it's, it's, it's really hardto say we are not, I think it's
no continue, but I don't know.
Uh, would it be regressive ornot?
So, uh, right now we are waitingfor, uh, rejection for we're
(19:59):
waiting for a situation whenpeople will go to prison for
yesterday's meetings.
So, uh, we will see thereaction.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
What do you think the Kremlin will do?
Do you think there'll be tougheror do you think they'll release
Navalny?
I don't think that they'llrelease him because
traditionally they just feelit's a challenge and they like
to meet challenges head on, andthey tend to be tougher rather
than listening to people.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Uh, I think they, uh, will keep nobody in prison.
Uh, I think, uh, hero, uh, he'llstay in here.
So for awhile, I don't know for,for[inaudible], uh, in the
prison, but I think, uh, he will, uh, uh, Kremlin wheel, uh, uh,
(20:56):
make some, uh, good decisionabout him because he he's in
Russia right now.
So it was his choice.
Uh, and I think he realized ifhe can he'll come in Russia,
he'll present.
So
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Do you know, the Kremlin will come out this week
and say that these were just afew hooligans and thugs and that
the majority of the populationsupports Putin.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Yeah.
That's their position all thetime.
What's the reality, uh, reality,you mean, uh,
Speaker 3 (21:29):
What do people really think, do you think is Putin now
with this video of thiscorruption in Putin's palace,
um, the jailing of Nevada County, um, the referendum in the
summer, which extends Putin'sterm to 2036, potentially, um,
just, you know, generallyeconomic hardship and people are
(21:51):
not feeling very happy.
What, what is the reality interms of Putin's popularity?
Speaker 4 (21:57):
You know, uh, it's a really, uh, strange situation,
but in Russia, lots of witchingsupporters, lots of they can, uh
, very bad, uh, about living inRussia.
They really poor, but they stillsupport teaching.
And if you ask them, how is yourlife is going, uh, baby, uh,
(22:19):
tell lots of, really, really sadstory about his life.
But if you will ask, uh, wantingto think about Putin, they, uh,
will say you put in is a greatleader.
Well, not everybody, noteverybody, of course, but, uh,
as I think the majority, uh, wewill support Putin, Putin.
(22:42):
It would be tired, you know,they could be tired, uh, of
corruption.
They could be tired for life orsomething like that, but, uh,
they kind of scared change, uh,4g in the old country.
And, uh, they tried to keep hislife in, uh, in, in common way,
(23:05):
you know, just okay, I'm leavingright now.
I have some money.
Uh, I have some legalopportunity.
Okay.
I have no rights, but, uh, when,uh, people in Russia have rights
.
So, uh, they choose Putinbecause they called it
stability, you know?
Uh, and, uh,
Speaker 3 (23:24):
That's the older generation.
Right.
And I think the youngergeneration, you're part of a new
generation.
You obviously think differentand people on social media who
went to the streets this weekendobviously are beginning to think
differently.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Yeah.
Lots of people thinksdifferently, but if you talk
about majority, I think majorityarea where say what I said, like
just now, uh, and, uh, yeah, uh,lots of young people, teenagers.
So they disagree with thisposition and they don't want to
be people who are happy, justabout, have some little money.
(24:00):
And, uh, and it's all, they wantto be a person with, uh, human
rights.
They want to choose, uh, what wewant to choose that Richie in
their own country.
So Veda won't leave thecorruption.
Of course they are different andthey will.
They just, uh, show with, Iguess is
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Last question.
I know you're writing stories.
Um, how will your stories bedifferent than the main channels
controlled by the Kremlin aboutyesterday, about this weekend's
demonstrations?
What would I see in yourjournalism that I wouldn't see
on the main Kremlin controlchannel?
How is it going to be different?
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Uh, because, uh, it would be different, but, uh, I
was just feeling what is goingon, you know, uh, and, uh, it's
kind of through, uh, we willshow with scene of violence from
the police.
And, uh, I think the, uh, progovernment media, they view, uh,
talk about, um, you know,provocation from, uh, people who
(25:08):
was in the square and, uh, that,uh, they just did a police and
then police should react, uh, onthese sections, but it was a
kind of, uh, you know,different, but they will take
this
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Tomorrow hope sky from ice stories.
Great to talk to you, stay safe,be careful.
And, uh, we hope to talk to youagain, thank you for your time.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Thank you very much.
And that's our backstory onRussia and unrest.
Please subscribe to ournewsletter at sub stack.
I'm leading you through the newsof the day, every few days.
And if you can please subscribeto this podcast and share it.
I'm working hard on this, andyou can help me make it grow.
I'm Dana Lewis.
(25:54):
Thanks for listening.
And I'll talk to you again.
First of all, I would say that this is just the
beginning of, of a Russianprotest movement from, from what
I can see, uh, that the Putinhas been stealing from the
Russian people for 20 years,Alexia Navalny has been the
leading voice, challengingPutin's theft and Putin has
massively, um, overplayed hishand in a way that he's now
(00:23):
created, um, made Navalny into aNelson Mandela like character.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Hi everyone.
This is Dana Lewis and welcometo backstory this edition on
Russia unrest.
It started when the Kremlindecided to take out the main
opposition leader, AlexeiNavalny with Nova Chuck nerve
agent in August Novell, kneeunexpectedly survived
fast-forward to late JanuaryNevada returned home.
(00:57):
He's arrested at the airport infront of the world's media and
sentenced on old.
He says fabricated fraud chargesand his parole, which conditions
mandated his reporting to prisonauthorities routinely.
But how do you do that?
If you're lying in a Germanhospital, close to death from
nerve agent poisoning.
(01:17):
Anyway, Navon these videosshowing president Putin's
corruption are deeplyembarrassing.
And one of them giving a tour ofPutin's billion dollar palace
near the black sea has ignitedunrest.
Millions of people have seen thevideo millions more watched
Navon these arrest, and theyanswered his call to go to the
(01:38):
street January 23rd and expresstheir anger tens of thousands of
protesters across 11 timeszones, 2000 people arrested
brawls with police fromVladivostok in the far East to
big cities, includingNovosibirsk ear Coots St
Petersburg and Moscow, 60 citiesin all on this backstory, the
(02:01):
dangerous work of being ajournalist in Russia.
And should there be moresanctions to pressure Putin to
release Navalny who prosecutorsnow want to jail for 13 years,
the unrest has just started inRussia.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
All right, joining me now is bill Browder, who is the
CEO of Hermitage capitalmanagement.
And bill has a long, longhistory, uh, in Russia.
And in fact, uh, tragically, hislawyer at one point was jailed
and died in a Russian prisonbill.
There are some scary parallelswith what, what happened to Mr.
Magnitsky and what's happeningnow to Nevada.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
So Sergei Magnitsky was my lawyer.
He uncovered, uh, a massivecorruption scheme and he was
taken to prison, uh, inretaliation for uncovering it
and slowly tortured and killedin prison on November 16, 2009,
11 years ago, that prison is[inaudible] prison, which is
translator translated intosailor's silence prison.
(03:08):
And that's the same prison thatAlexei Navalny is sitting in
today.
Another anti-corruption activist, um, and another thorn in the
side of Lennon Rakuten,
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Let, let's talk about what's happening in Russia right
now.
I mean, there are demonstrationsacross some 60 cities
unprecedented, what we've seentoday.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Well, the first of all, I would say that this is
just the beginning of, of aRussian protest movement from,
from what I can see.
Uh, the Putin has been stealingfrom the Russian people for 20
years.
Alexia Navalny has been theleading voice, challenging
Putin's theft and Putin hasmassively, um, overplayed his
(03:51):
hand in a way that he's nowcreated, um, made Navalny into a
Nelson Mandela like character.
He provided, he provided him aninternational platform by, by,
um, poisoning him with, uh, with, uh, chemical weapons and, and
not succeeding and killing him.
And so the entire Western worldis now fully aware of, of
(04:12):
Alexian of Olney, and then Putinsealed his own fate by
threatening Navalny with arrestof, he returned to Russia,
hoping that Navalny was stayout.
But in fact, Navalny, um, uh,has risen to the challenge.
And by showing that he's neitherafraid of poison or prison, uh,
(04:33):
he's put Putin in a terribleposition because he's shown
himself to be stronger thanPutin could ever be.
And he's, he's made himself avery attractive figure for, for
young Russians all over thecountry.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
The Valley was poisoned with Nova chalk, a
nerve agent, which no doubt washeld by Russian authorities
because you don't buy it just atany drug store.
I mean, this is an illegallyproduced, um, uh, nerve agent,
which under, by the way, Russiais a signature to the, to the
ban on chemical, biologicalweapon production.
But so they violated that they,they no doubt.
(05:10):
And you and I spoke before, um,this is not some rogue operation
by the FSB, the federal securityservice, because to poison
somebody as high profile asNevani within the country,
surely it had Putin's consent.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
No, no, no, no, they wouldn't.
It wasn't, it's not like theysaid, Hey boss, can we have
permission to do this?
This is Putin's directive knownobody touches Navalny, nor did
they touch Boris Nimsoft, um,who was murdered in front of,
uh, another opposition figurewho was murdered in front of the
Kremlin.
I mean, there've been so manypeople who have challenged
(05:45):
Putin's legitimacy who have beenkilled.
Um, it's, uh, you know, the listgoes on and on and on Putin is a
, um, a murderous, uh, sort of,you know, kind of a serial
killer if you will.
And, um, he needs to be stopped.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
All right.
I mean, a lot of people woulddoubt what you were saying a
year ago.
Um, but suddenly I think this isdifferent now inside Russia,
because this has spread likewildfire on social media.
There are tens of millions ofviews of the arrest of Nevada,
(06:24):
the case of Nevada, the G thejailing of Nevada County, and
then his corruption video, uh,which he put out, which
basically accuses Putin of, ofbeing a little more than, you
know, a gang land, um, mafia,state, uh, controller who was
pocketed hundreds of millions,if not billions of dollars and
(06:48):
built this incredible palacenear the black sea.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Yeah.
The movie is incredible.
Um, it's, I I'm, I'm a, um,expert on Putin's corruption.
I've studied it for the last 15years, but even as an expert, I
learned a lot of new things inthe movie and, and it really
makes your blood boil to seethis, to see the, the, the, the
extent of the luxury and thelavishness that Putin, um, has
(07:15):
as given to himself at theexpense of the Russian people.
You know, the average Russiancan't even get medicine in a
hospital.
And Putin has a, um, you know,vineyards and, and underground
parking garages and undergroundskating rinks and, and unbelief
arbitrary items, and just allsorts of crazy stuff at this, at
(07:37):
this, um, this palace that'slike 60 times the land is 60
times the size of Monaco.
It's just, it's just disgusting.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Yeah.
Don't forget the, uh, poledancing disco.
And, and I might add that someof the protesters were carrying
these brushes that you cleantoilets with today, because
apparently, you know, thebrushes in that mansion were
purchased for something like$800each.
(08:07):
So they were carrying them as asymbol of corruption.
So, so bill look, what ismotivating the demonstrations?
Is it, is it just Nevada Countyor is it tough economic times w
with a pandemic, basically thesuspension of democracy there,
the extension of Putin termuntil 2036, potentially there
(08:31):
just a lot of things feedinginto this now creating a perfect
storm.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Well, ma mainly is, I mean, Putin has been ripping off
the Russian people for, for thelast 20 years.
The main, the main thing thatthat's, um, that's fueling this
is, is there the, the attemptedassassination of Alexei Navalny,
his arrest, and then Alexafinally, um, uh, calling people
to go out into the streetsspecifically to free him.
And that then the enough isenough.
(08:57):
And the Putin took a step toofar in this case.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Do you think this is going to end quickly?
Or do you think this is thebeginning because they have
already called for moredemonstrations next week?
Speaker 1 (09:07):
Uh, this is, this is going to be like Belarus, and
it's gonna, it's gonna morepeople when people see that, see
what happened this week, morepeople will come out next week
and that's Putin's worstnightmare.
Sure.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
He'd be releasing Nevani now to put the fire out
or are we,
Speaker 1 (09:22):
There's no way he can do that.
You cannot in Russia, it's likea prison yard.
You can't show weakness.
He put in his now a prisoner tohis own actions at this point.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Why did they stupidly arrest him when he arrived back?
Speaker 1 (09:35):
They had no choice when they threatened him with
arrest to try to keep him away.
Um, they th that, that was themoment that, that they made.
That was their big mistakebecause by having him come back,
they could not arrest him, butby arresting him, they'd set
off, they've lived the fuse onthis situation, which is
spinning out of control forthem.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Will you just look down the road and tell me how
you think that this, how thisunfolds now, how the future goes
now in Russia?
Because a lot of people havealways said, if there's a spark,
uh, Russia can burn, uh, interms of people reaching their
end of patients with Putin andthe Kremlin, do you think this
is,
Speaker 1 (10:14):
You know, I don't know, Alexian of only doesn't
know, and Vladimir Putin doesn'tknow it it's it's, anything
could happen.
How many, you know, what are theRussian people do?
What does the internationalcommunity do?
What does Putin do?
It's all very uncertain.
It's a totally dynamicsituation.
Um, uh, but, but what I can sayis that, um, this is a mess of
(10:35):
Putin's own making.
Speaker 3 (10:36):
Last question.
What should the internationalcommunity do?
Because we talked aboutsanctions before.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
It's very clear for the last 10 years.
Um, I I've been advocating for alaw called the Magnitsky act
named after my lawyer, SergeiMagnitsky, who was murdered in
Russian prison, Magnitsky act,imposes, visa, sanctions, and
asset freezes on human rights,violators Alexia, Navalny, um,
was one of the, um, uh, manyRussian, uh, figures who
(11:02):
supported the Magnitsky actalong with Mikhail Khodorkovsky
and another, uh, Russianopposition figure, Gary
Kasparov, or a Samsung ledAmerican or Mirza.
All the major Russian oppositionhave realized this is the tool
to be used.
And this is the tool now, whichshould be used 31 countries have
the Magnitsky act, and it shouldbe applied to the billionaire
bankers and enablers of VladimirPutin who are funding his regime
(11:26):
and allowing him to do thisterrible stuff real broader.
Thanks.
Good to talk to you.
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
All right.
Joining me now from Moscow isAlicia Mara whole sky.
Hi Alysia.
Hi, Dana.
You're a journalist working forice stories.
Media.
Yeah, that's correct.
So what is I stories mediabefore we talk about what
happened on the street?
I mean, it seems that there's,there's now a lot of independent
digital media that's out there.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Uh, I used use media, it's kind of new media in
Russia.
It's new project.
Uh, it was founded by a reallyfamous in Russia, investigative
reporters, like, uh, Roman[inaudible], uh, and the Roman
history Knauf.
Uh, there are, uh, made somegreat investigations.
There was part of team who wasworking on banana papers,
(12:22):
paradise papers, and, uh,stories, uh, like that, uh,
Speaker 3 (12:27):
Panama was a very, a very hot topic on money
laundering and secret accountsoverseas.
But so essentially media inRussia has been controlled
traditionally by the Kremlin.
When you take a look at themainstream television channels,
the main newspapers, there hasbeen very little room for, um,
(12:48):
opposition or neutral media.
That's not controlled.
How do you stay under the radarand, uh, and report without
being controlled?
Speaker 4 (13:01):
So it's our choice, uh, to be, uh, uh, small and
independent media in Russia, uh,because, uh, as you said, we
couldn't, uh, be, uh,professional journalism on the
other medias.
So we just choose this way.
And, uh, that's why we are ininternet.
(13:23):
Uh, and, uh, here gremlin, uh,could not control everything.
Uh, so we have a YouTubechannel, our sides and, uh, some
space in social media and wejust doing our job, uh, and, uh,
sometimes, uh, it's, it's kindof dangerous, but, uh, I think
(13:43):
that every investigativereporter in Russia, uh, realized
that, uh, she or he hasopportunity to be jailed, uh,
beaten or something like that.
But, uh, it's, you know, it's akind of, it's, it's part of our
job in Russia and, uh, we areready to face some problem from
(14:05):
authorities.
So it's like, uh, our normallife.
Speaker 3 (14:10):
Are they trying to control digital media?
Speaker 4 (14:14):
Uh, you mean our media?
Yeah, no,
Speaker 3 (14:17):
They're not trying to control it because they're
trying to control the internetnow because they understand that
so many people are getting theirnews from the internet.
Speaker 4 (14:28):
They couldn't do it because we use the social media
in South America.
So if you want control us, youneed to control, uh, Facebook,
uh, telegram or YouTube.
So it's, uh, it's, it's hard todo it.
So they couldn't, they, uh, theymade some lows, uh, for example,
the last one is, uh, againstpeople who, uh, texting
(14:54):
something in social media, forexample, or, uh, insights, uh,
and, uh, have, uh, for infinitystation.
So you, uh, became a foreignagent, uh, and, uh, you have to
pay
Speaker 3 (15:10):
Kind of how we know how that law goes in Russia,
because anybody that doesn'tagree with the Kremlin will be
accused of being a foreignagent, even if they're not.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Yeah, yeah.
For this purpose service law wasme.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Tell me about these demonstrations.
You were in the middle of theseyesterday.
Were you at the, uh, Pushkinplushy where you at Pushkin
square?
What happened there and what,and how did you come to be
attacked by the police though?
Speaker 4 (15:35):
Uh, it was a peaceful form of protest, Gil, just, uh,
students, shoulders slogans, andhow boasters in support of
Alexander Valley, who was jailed, uh, illegally, uh, or against
corruption.
So, and, uh, even before heshall start affection, police
officer began to detain people,uh, in the square.
(15:57):
People just were stained.
People just choose to berespond.
They took them.
And, uh, sometimes, uh, uh, ifany of the protesters refused to
go along with the police, theywent, the officers took him by
force.
They could beat them, uh, andsometimes, uh, such on gum
(16:18):
detentions force, everyone elseto fight back with the police.
Uh, and, uh, it was like localstrikes.
So I was working there, uh, likejournalists and I was fuming, uh
, uh, some single beating ofpeople.
And, uh, uh, I was from one sideand I didn't see how another
(16:41):
group of police and protestorswas back in me.
And, uh, I think that policemenjust probably didn't see that I
was a journalist and he puttwice in the back and the neck
with the, uh, his, uh, arm, uh,and, uh, I had a beach with a
breast guard, but I think hedidn't see it.
So he just decided it was, uh,just protesters and try to keep
(17:05):
me where you hurt.
Of course it was hurt when youjust felt it's, it's very, it's
very hard, but now I'm okay.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Tell me how unprecedented this is in Russia.
I mean, this is not about a rusewhere we've seen rolling
demonstrations week by week byweek, since the election in the
summer.
It is not very often.
We see these huge crowds inRussia taking to the streets and
just not in one city, but Imean, dozens and dozens of
cities yesterday, it wasunbelievable.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
Yeah.
But, uh, if you want to compare,[inaudible], uh, kind of
different protests, uh, because,uh, in the Russia, people was
fighting against the police.
So, but, uh, tomorrow, uh,yesterday I was, I was, um, uh,
I was seeing how people fightback with police and, uh, it was
(17:59):
a kind of unusual scene becausein Russia, you know, uh, it's,
it's very scared, so fight withpolice because they have no,
they can beat you very, veryhard.
So, and I saw, uh, substance,then people try my back and it
was really, really scared, but,uh, I think it's, uh, not enough
(18:22):
to compare, uh, Russia withRussia.
So we more peaceful in this formof protest.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Well, not so peaceful in some of the scenes in St.
Petersburg and other places, butwhat, what is happening?
Why are people angry?
Why are people really motivated?
Because it takes a lot.
I mean, I was based in Russiafor over a decade.
It takes a lot to get Russiansto go to the street like they
did.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
I think, uh, people really, really tight, uh,
because of corruption, uh,because, uh, 4g can make, can
make everything with everyperson in this country.
And, uh, you, uh, kind of knowyou, you can feel, uh, that
you're in safe in this countryand you have to do something
(19:14):
because an extended one is veryfamous people, not only in
Russia, but in the world, but,uh, by the way, he in jail, he
in jail right now.
And, uh, uh, he not safe.
And I think people wayunderstood that they're gonna
say too, and they have to dosomething.
(19:34):
Yes.
Uh, it's, it's, it's really hardto say we are not, I think it's
no continue, but I don't know.
Uh, would it be regressive ornot?
So, uh, right now we are waitingfor, uh, rejection for we're
(19:59):
waiting for a situation whenpeople will go to prison for
yesterday's meetings.
So, uh, we will see thereaction.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
What do you think the Kremlin will do?
Do you think there'll be tougheror do you think they'll release
Navalny?
I don't think that they'llrelease him because
traditionally they just feelit's a challenge and they like
to meet challenges head on, andthey tend to be tougher rather
than listening to people.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Uh, I think they, uh, will keep nobody in prison.
Uh, I think, uh, hero, uh, he'llstay in here.
So for awhile, I don't know for,for[inaudible], uh, in the
prison, but I think, uh, he will, uh, uh, Kremlin wheel, uh, uh,
(20:56):
make some, uh, good decisionabout him because he he's in
Russia right now.
So it was his choice.
Uh, and I think he realized ifhe can he'll come in Russia,
he'll present.
So
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Do you know, the Kremlin will come out this week
and say that these were just afew hooligans and thugs and that
the majority of the populationsupports Putin.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Yeah.
That's their position all thetime.
What's the reality, uh, reality,you mean, uh,
Speaker 3 (21:29):
What do people really think, do you think is Putin now
with this video of thiscorruption in Putin's palace,
um, the jailing of Nevada County, um, the referendum in the
summer, which extends Putin'sterm to 2036, potentially, um,
just, you know, generallyeconomic hardship and people are
(21:51):
not feeling very happy.
What, what is the reality interms of Putin's popularity?
Speaker 4 (21:57):
You know, uh, it's a really, uh, strange situation,
but in Russia, lots of witchingsupporters, lots of they can, uh
, very bad, uh, about living inRussia.
They really poor, but they stillsupport teaching.
And if you ask them, how is yourlife is going, uh, baby, uh,
(22:19):
tell lots of, really, really sadstory about his life.
But if you will ask, uh, wantingto think about Putin, they, uh,
will say you put in is a greatleader.
Well, not everybody, noteverybody, of course, but, uh,
as I think the majority, uh, wewill support Putin, Putin.
(22:42):
It would be tired, you know,they could be tired, uh, of
corruption.
They could be tired for life orsomething like that, but, uh,
they kind of scared change, uh,4g in the old country.
And, uh, they tried to keep hislife in, uh, in, in common way,
(23:05):
you know, just okay, I'm leavingright now.
I have some money.
Uh, I have some legalopportunity.
Okay.
I have no rights, but, uh, when,uh, people in Russia have rights
.
So, uh, they choose Putinbecause they called it
stability, you know?
Uh, and, uh,
Speaker 3 (23:24):
That's the older generation.
Right.
And I think the youngergeneration, you're part of a new
generation.
You obviously think differentand people on social media who
went to the streets this weekendobviously are beginning to think
differently.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Yeah.
Lots of people thinksdifferently, but if you talk
about majority, I think majorityarea where say what I said, like
just now, uh, and, uh, yeah, uh,lots of young people, teenagers.
So they disagree with thisposition and they don't want to
be people who are happy, justabout, have some little money.
(24:00):
And, uh, and it's all, they wantto be a person with, uh, human
rights.
They want to choose, uh, what wewant to choose that Richie in
their own country.
So Veda won't leave thecorruption.
Of course they are different andthey will.
They just, uh, show with, Iguess is
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Last question.
I know you're writing stories.
Um, how will your stories bedifferent than the main channels
controlled by the Kremlin aboutyesterday, about this weekend's
demonstrations?
What would I see in yourjournalism that I wouldn't see
on the main Kremlin controlchannel?
How is it going to be different?
Speaker 4 (24:44):
Uh, because, uh, it would be different, but, uh, I
was just feeling what is goingon, you know, uh, and, uh, it's
kind of through, uh, we willshow with scene of violence from
the police.
And, uh, I think the, uh, progovernment media, they view, uh,
talk about, um, you know,provocation from, uh, people who
(25:08):
was in the square and, uh, that,uh, they just did a police and
then police should react, uh, onthese sections, but it was a
kind of, uh, you know,different, but they will take
this
Speaker 3 (25:24):
Tomorrow hope sky from ice stories.
Great to talk to you, stay safe,be careful.
And, uh, we hope to talk to youagain, thank you for your time.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Thank you very much.
And that's our backstory onRussia and unrest.
Please subscribe to ournewsletter at sub stack.
I'm leading you through the newsof the day, every few days.
And if you can please subscribeto this podcast and share it.
I'm working hard on this, andyou can help me make it grow.
I'm Dana Lewis.
(25:54):
Thanks for listening.
And I'll talk to you again.
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